# TVONE Blending Info, General Q&A or just how to?



## MadMrH

Hi Guys,


I've sent many email and PMs to various people in answer to questions about the TVONE units, Here seems better use of my FREE time to answer items in one go for all to read.


I will do my best here to add any info about the TV ONE 7000 series that I can.


I have running here a pair of Barco Cine9 with TV ONE C2-7200 dual channel scaler.


The 7200 adds HD SDI input and output, the rest is the same as the 7100.


the 7210 and 7110 add many more front panel buttons for direct access of features.


I use the 7200 with a single Jog wheel with push to enter, this is very simple to use and my first blend was up and running within 15 minutes of arrival of the 7200.


TVONE units that are able to edge blend can be found here

http://www.tvone.com/edgeblending.shtml 


BASIC Blending setup on the TVONE is details here

http://tvone.crmdesk.com/answer.aspx?id=199 - WITHIN v2 of the 7000 series manual
http://tvone.crmdesk.com/image.aspx?mode=file&id=306 - Actual Edge Blending link


Here are some recent quotes and my opinions



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chuchuf* /forum/post/12941859
> 
> 
> With the C2-7000 it took me a few days to get my mind around how it works and sets up in that it uses individual controls for each of it's scalers to control everything. But once you get used to that, it's off to the races. If you change the blend zone size, the projectors stay in alignment which allows you to tweak the blend zone for good blending. You can set up macro's for three different setups for aspect ratio control. And get this, you can create individual resolutions and refresh rates so long as you stay with their pixel clock requirements. Adjusting the blend zone was a snap thing less that 10 min once the projectors were aligned.
> 
> One down side to the C2-7000 is that it will not accept 1080P60 as an input. The computer interface is OK but when blending still required setting the individual channels up rather that cone adjustment for say "gamma" in the blend zone. I guess there are +'s and -'s to this.
> 
> In this case we will be feeding it 1080P24 and then sending 1600 x 1200 @72hz to two G90 projectors for HD-DVD and BluRay playback. For HDTV we will send the unit 1080i60 and 720P60 and upscale.
> 
> 
> Terry



1. Terry as you came from the Di Ventix first I think this slowed down your initial time to work out the basic control of the unit. For me I started with the TVONE unit and very quickly got the blend running (15 minutes) - I am guessing you did not have the TVONE Basic blend guide to hand as that tells you how to setup from first opening the box.


2. 1080p60 /1080p24 input : This has been asked many times and as time has gone on I believe this area of requirement has changed.


18 months ago I bought an XA1 HD DVD player which was able to output 1080i60, at the time best player on the market. TVONE WONT upscale 1080i signal, so I used an external scaler to do 1080i to 1080p conversion. TODAY technology has moved on, I now use a Sony S1 Blu Ray player with 1080p24 output, I also have an XE1 capable of 1080p24 output (Currently not able to FORCE 1080p24), these go into HD FUry units and into the TVONE. NO external scaler required, The TVONE will up the refresh rate from 24Hz to 72Hz and output via the RGBHV output.


Tomorrow ish! (Or when it arrives) I will go from XE1 and S1 into a Moome External box that allows DIGITAL HDMI connection to the TVONE unit, this removes the HDCP and will keep the signal DIGITAL into the TVONE - (HD Fury is analogue out)


The TVONE is an up down and CROSS format scaler so DVI-D input to RGBHV output is possible


3. I will come back to RESOLUTIONS for the output later, But give some thought to considering specific reolutions you WANT , Rather than PC based standard options, the TVONE will do ANY resolution you want within its limits.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chuchuf* /forum/post/12943940
> 
> 
> The hardest thing for me to get used to was the idea that the C2-7000 was two processors and you have to tweak each of them seperately any time you want to make a change. Heck I could even tun two different resolutions if I wanted in a blended situation.
> 
> 
> Terry



Setup Button ONE as Channel A / Channel B switch then you can flick between the SAME setting page on the LCD display for each output (Projector)


The settings are separate as the scaler is in "Independent" mode, separate settings are required as a number are specific to each projector, This also allows two totally different projectors to be used and setup for optimum use.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oliverg* /forum/post/12942096
> 
> 
> The 7000 isn't HDCP compliant is it?



No, the TVONE unit is not HDCP compliant, as I understand because this unit allow you to add "Titles" over the image this changes the video content and so cant be HDCP compliant.

There are many HDCP products available to remove the HDCP issue "HD Fury" & "moome" products - PLEASE post about these in OTHER threads, Thank you.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/12953587
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sounds like the TVOne is a great unit, particularly with Andy's input, but the lack of any decent digital input/output throughput was a deal breaker for me]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gino - I think the TVONE units will accept up to [email protected] from their digital (DVI) input. If this is correct, then why can't you use something like the VP50 for AR control and input switching, and then have the TVONE change refresh to 48, 50, 60, 72 or 75 as you need? Just set the VP50 for either 24 or 30 output.
Click to expand...


I suggest 1080p24 as this is available DIRECT from HD Players. More consoles & HDTV will I'm sure offer 1080p24 in time.


Ratio changes can be done within the TVONE unit. Heres the EASY solution, setup internal MACRO use in the TVONE, press a button , or from your control system select the correct ratio for each film, for me 16:9, 2.35:1 2.4:1 as I use a fixed 2.35:1 screen. Inputs? there are NINE on the C2-7100 and ELEVEN on the C2-7200 units.


I have now moved away from an external scaler unit.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/12973324
> 
> 
> The TVOne units are great if you want to stay in the analog domain, but for me wanting everything digital until the moome VIMs, it doesn't appear to be compatible. The DVI chips are limited as has been said by Andy and now Oliver after speaking with TVOne staff



I think this brings us onto the topic of resolutions.

Could I ask that people try NOT to mention standard resolution like 1280x1024, 1600x1200 and other well known PC or HD resolutions - that almost! includes 1920x1080! Here is why.......


16:9 HD Film & Console games use ACTIVE resolution of 1920x1080


For now lets stick with films, I know people use games as well but I need to reduce the vast topics down to a few that I can find time to answer.


2.35:1 HD Films use only 1920x817 ACTIVE resolution, the rest is black bars.

2.4:1 HD Films use only 1920x800 ACTIVE resolution.


The majority of films are NOT 16:9 ratio.


So as a result of this I now have a fixed 2.35:1 Screen, I currently output 1080x817 to each projector, the TVONE has a PC based resolution editor that allows ANY resolution you want to be created.


1600x1200 Maybe if watching 2.4:1 then this is a sensible option. this would give you a picture 1.5 times the resolution of a 1920x800 2.4:1 image - BUT, this starts to eat up bandwidth, and it is accepted that increased bandwidth does soften the CRT image. So why not drop down to 1066x800 for 2.4:1 , NOT a standard resolution but ANY resolution can be created within the TVONE unit. Massive reduction in bandwidth and so much sharper picture.


The Resolution Editor is very quick and simple to use.



I have been requesting feature upgrades from TVONE that relate to blending, ALL features to date have been added. I still have a few more requests that are being worked on so I believe this product still has more to offer.


PLEASE NOTE : I do not work for TVONE so all above are my own opinions and should all be checked first!


All the best,


Andy.


----------



## nashou66

Andy thanks for all the info, next time I am in london i will definitly make time to stop by and visit you, it was just to difficult this past december. I am going to post my comment on the other thread about the sourcing of the Diventix here it has an e-mail from Dan Gibson VP of Tv_one.



> Quote:
> Ok I just Got an E-mail back from Dan Gibson of Tv-0ne and it looks like we might see some of the things we want for higher input and out put digital, although he has not said this specificlye, it lends me to think it will be included in a future upgrade.
> 
> 
> this is the email i sent him:
> 
> "Last year I demo'd a C2-7200 and never really got to try it fully with Blending since my second projector died on me before got your units. This bring me to a discussion on the AVS Forum site about the bandwidth and pixel clock specs of your 7000 series units. Here is a link to the discusion between your unit and the Analogway Diventix 8022.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=977793
> 
> 
> Your brochure and spec sheets have some confused as to what the maximum digital input resolution is and what the pixel clock speed is as with DVI specs it should be able to handle 165mhz pixel clock. Now we are talking about the digital input and output. Andy Halliday has been testing your units in London and says that the DVI digital input is only able to accept 1280x1024 because they have an older chip set. I would like to find out what the actual maximum input resolution is in the digital domain, and also what can be output from each scaling engine. Also what is the chip/processor that is used for this. It be great if you or someone from Tv-one maybe could join in the discusions on AVSforum as the Guys from Lumagen do in the VP forums. There are many who are looking at your products in the home theater CRT forum but want to go 100% digital to thier projectors now that there are aftermarket hdmi cards and hdcp strippers to take advantage of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD's. I plan to get a blend unit this year either the 7000 series or the C2-2250 x2 and knowing the truth with regard to this possible limitation will make our decision more informed.
> 
> Also are there any plans to add remot control abilities to the 7000 series like the 2200 series?
> 
> 
> Athanasios"
> 
> 
> And this was his responce:
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Athanasios,
> 
> The DVI input and output limitations mentioned in the thread are accurate.
> 
> Continue to monitor our website and I believe you will be pleased with new
> 
> product developments coming out within the next couple months.
> 
> 
> The C2-7000 series will only have RS-232 and IP remote control. The C2-5000
> 
> series which preceded it has IR control, but no one used it. So, in
> 
> designing the C2-7000 series it was left off to save space. We packed in a
> 
> lot of capability into a 1RU frame you know.
> 
> 
> Thank you for your continued support of our processors. I truly believe we
> 
> do offer the most affordable and flexible edge blending hardware video
> 
> processors on the market. I appreciate your help in getting the word out.
> 
> 
> Dan Gibson | Vice President | TV One
> 
> So i guess it does have limitations but he didnt specify if it was limited to the 1280x1024 or if the limitation was the not being able to do the 1080p60 !! But i look forward to new developments in the next few months!
> 
> 
> He has told me they were working on improving it for increased blending features last year and said it should be ready in the first quater of 2008 so looks they are right on time!
> 
> 
> lets hope they hit the 165 mhz pixel clock for us blend fanatics!!!
> 
> 
> Athanasios
> 
> 
> PS: And their was talk about a scaled down dedicated blend unit for home theater use with hdcp compliancy by removing all the overlay and text over picture that violate the HDCP rules for altering the original content. This was just a possibility that one of the other contacts I have at Tv-one told me but had to temporarily abandon due to a major contractor needing a specific application from Tv-one and all their resource's we diverted to that project. Maybe this is what DAn Gibson is talking about ! Lets hope it is.




Athanasios


----------



## Chuchuf

Andy,


Thanks for your thoughtfull and accurate response.


To follow up on a few points:


1. Now that I am used to the controls on the C2-7100, it is a breeze to set uo. Especially the blending. As you pointed out you just switch back and forth on the independant channels to make setting changed. Right now I actually perfer using the front dial over their setup software, but that may change as I log some more time w/ the software.


2. I wanted to test the unit we have at what I considered the highest resolution possible for the Marquees I have here which are highly modded including MP's latest mods, LUG's, lens's, etc. They had no problems with this resolution of 1600 x 1200 72hz (which is a 4:3 resolution and what I wanted because the test screen is 2.4) into the Moome cards via HDMI. What the final resolution will be for the setup this is going into is TBD. It will be a 2.4 A/R screen and a pair of G90's hopefully w. MP's mods.


3. I have proved in the other thread that I am coming in and going out of the C207100 in the digital domain which is good.


4. I agree with you that 1080P60 in while desided is not a deal killer based on the latest generation of players delivering 1080P24.


5. I like the 1U size a lot, but like the 8022 hate the fan noise, so the unit needs to be located outside the theater.


6. I REALLY like the ability to do macros which IMO provides a lot more flexibility than the 8022 and removes any need for a scaler in the video chain. Very nice indeed. That provided w/ RS-232 control will make this HT application the tits.


Terry


----------



## overclkr

Awesome post Andy!


Cliff


----------



## overclkr

Question guys. How is the blendzone looking? Completely invisible from 0 to 100IRE??????


Cliff


----------



## nashou66

Terry I agree with you here as well! I sent Dan Gibson of Tv-One a copy of your findins with regards to the [email protected] and also asked him if mayby he or one of his techs could join in on the forum from time to time and let us know about any changes or some pointers. Not sure if they will make commitment to it since they are probably very busy but it was worth a shot since the Lumagen Guys are always on the VP forum exchanging info with us. I think it be a great way for TV-One to find out what is going on with their products by not having to answer to each user individually , users could come here and look at what is going on and ask questions.


once again Andy thanks for taking time out of your Busy Schedual to write this Q&A thread.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Andy - Fantastic and much needed post!


I agree with your choice of 1080X817 for 2.35 films as it allows the full horizontal resolution of 1920 and discards the black info from a 16:9 source. The end result is a drastic reduction in bandwidth each projector sees.

But, I have one question: Why don't you use 1080X1634 which would be doubling of the 817 and still within the resolving capabilities of your projectors? Should make for a bright, sharp picture. Or maybe 1080X1225? Still low bandwidth requirements.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/12979902
> 
> 
> Andy thanks for all the info, next time I am in london i will definitly make time to stop by and visit you, it was just to difficult this past december. I am going to post my comment on the other thread about the sourcing of the Diventix here it has an e-mail from Dan Gibson VP of Tv_one.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Hi,


Yes, A real shame you missed the barco 1209s / TVONE 7200 blend.


Still next time you are around its cine9 time









.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/12980562
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> Yes, A real shame you missed the barco 1209s / TVONE 7200 blend.
> 
> 
> Still next time you are around its cine9 time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Awesome Hopefully i'll stop in England again on my way to Greece specificly to hang with you and compare notes on the TV-One blends, I should have mine some time in May if things go right with my investments.










Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chuchuf* /forum/post/12980033
> 
> 
> Andy,
> 
> 
> Thanks for your thoughtfull and accurate response.
> 
> 
> To follow up on a few points:
> 
> 
> 1. Now that I am used to the controls on the C2-7100, it is a breeze to set uo. Especially the blending. As you pointed out you just switch back and forth on the independant channels to make setting changed. Right now I actually perfer using the front dial over their setup software, but that may change as I log some more time w/ the software.
> 
> 
> 2. I wanted to test the unit we have at what I considered the highest resolution possible for the Marquees I have here which are highly modded including MP's latest mods, LUG's, lens's, etc. They had no problems with this resolution of 1600 x 1200 72hz (which is a 4:3 resolution and what I wanted because the test screen is 2.4) into the Moome cards via HDMI. What the final resolution will be for the setup this is going into is TBD. It will be a 2.4 A/R screen and a pair of G90's hopefully w. MP's mods.
> 
> 
> 3. I have proved in the other thread that I am coming in and going out of the C207100 in the digital domain which is good.
> 
> 
> 4. I agree with you that 1080P60 in while desided is not a deal killer based on the latest generation of players delivering 1080P24.
> 
> 
> 5. I like the 1U size a lot, but like the 8022 hate the fan noise, so the unit needs to be located outside the theater.
> 
> 
> 6. I REALLY like the ability to do macros which IMO provides a lot more flexibility than the 8022 and removes any need for a scaler in the video chain. Very nice indeed. That provided w/ RS-232 control will make this HT application the tits.
> 
> 
> Terry



Hi Terry,


Good to see you go down this route







.


1. I would stick with the front panel control for all settings, it is quick and easy to use. Use the PC for resolution and save of settings.


REMEMBER save BOTH resolution and system settings, When you upgrade firmware, NEXT load your resolution file, THEN load your settings file. The Resolution and User settings are NOT held in the same file , so to access your resolution settings they must be in the unit, hence load res. file after firmware updates.


ALSO the firmware is usually just ahead of the software, people might question WHY? and that in an ideal world the software would be up to date with the firmware.


As it happens they produce the new firmware very quickly in my opinion and I am 100% happy with the speed at which they act on my requests.


Why the need for the firmware updates - Simple, If you saw the list of "Features" I request then they do very well to action most of them. I work in the "Commercial Pro AV Market" so my hands on daily work has offered "features" that I feel worth adding, of course I try and keep an open mind on these requests and I ask for items that are of use to ME directly along with general requests of use to others.


2&3 - Terry, despite what everyone is telling you it is worth checking quickly. Go into the output menu, you get a screen with Dig and Analogue output type , CHANGE the settings. When you Projectors show change then you have proved without doubt DIG or Analogue







.


4 - Gino is not so sold on this idea. For me this works - no product is going to please everyone.


5. There is an answer to the fan noise, You will have to check with TVONE when you are ready. You should be able to remove the PSU from the case, this will reduce the need for the high fan speed










6.







Yes I too am sold on the TV ONE product


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *overclkr* /forum/post/12980106
> 
> 
> Awesome post Andy!
> 
> 
> Cliff



Hi Cliffy,


I trust you are well and behaving yourself.


My Cine9 pair went up about a week ago, they need to be setup, my cinema system is going though some changes not just the PJ's










I will post screen shots when done.


Andy.


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/12980183
> 
> 
> Not sure if they will make commitment to it since they are probably very busy. I think it be a great way for TV-One to find out what is going on with their products by not having to answer to each user individually , users could come here and look at what is going on and ask questions.
> 
> 
> once again Andy thanks for taking time out of your Busy Schedual to write this Q&A thread.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Hi,


I would leave it about a week or so, Currently there is a show on and so staff will be reduced in number for the next few days.


Amsterdam AV show.


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/12980490
> 
> 
> Andy - Fantastic and much needed post!
> 
> 
> I agree with your choice of 1080X817 for 2.35 films as it allows the full horizontal resolution of 1920 and discards the black info from a 16:9 source. The end result is a drastic reduction in bandwidth each projector sees.
> 
> But, I have one question: Why don't you use 1080X1634 which would be doubling of the 817 and still within the resolving capabilities of your projectors? Should make for a bright, sharp picture. Or maybe 1080X1225? Still low bandwidth requirements.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



Well I will try other options but currently my Cine9 pair have only been up a week so Im setting up. Entire Cinema is going for an upgrade


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chuchuf* /forum/post/12980033
> 
> 
> 
> 2. I wanted to test the unit we have at what I considered the highest resolution possible for the Marquees I have here which are highly modded including MP's latest mods, LUG's, lens's, etc. They had no problems with this resolution of *1600 x 1200 72hz* (which is a 4:3 resolution and what I wanted because the test screen is 2.4) into the Moome cards via HDMI. What the final resolution will be for the setup this is going into is TBD. It will be a 2.4 A/R screen and a pair of G90's hopefully w. MP's mods.
> 
> 
> Terry



Oh dang. What we're talking about here, being able to do 1600x1200 72hz on a G90??


When y'all get a real challenge for my G90 mods - holla at me..


----------



## ajantin

Sounds like all the problems are getting worked out.


WOW, 2 G90's, each shooting a 4:3 (using almost all the phospher), realatively tiny, 100" diag. super-sharp (MP) and bright picture, blended onto a 138" wide 2.37 aspect ratio AT screen...


I can't wait to get this setup going in the new theater. Thanks to both of you for all your fine efforts.


----------



## Tim in Phoenix




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ajantin* /forum/post/12983434
> 
> 
> Sounds like all the problems are getting worked out.
> 
> 
> WOW, 2 G90's, each shooting a 4:3 (using almost all the phospher), realatively tiny, 100" diag. super-sharp (MP) and bright picture, blended onto a 138" wide 2.37 aspect ratio AT screen...
> 
> 
> I can't wait to get this setup going in the new theater. Thanks to both of you for all your fine efforts.




Hello


If you have over 1000 hours on your existing G90, it may have to be retubed or the unused phosphor at the top and bottom will be brighter than the center. And we don't want that do we.



.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tim in Phoenix* /forum/post/12983539
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
> 
> If you have over 1000 hours on your existing G90, it may have to be retubed or the unused phosphor at the top and bottom will be brighter than the center. And we don't want that do we.
> 
> 
> 
> .



If you start doing a warm up on your G90's with a full white screen at 4x3 for 10 minuts or so before watching a movie, it might help even out any unknown Uneven wear.


Athanasios


----------



## ajantin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tim in Phoenix* /forum/post/12983539
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
> 
> If you have over 1000 hours on your existing G90, it may have to be retubed or the unused phosphor at the top and bottom will be brighter than the center. And we don't want that do we.
> 
> 
> 
> .



About 1800 hours , but absolutely no 16:9 wear. Can't see any difference outside the 16:9 when playing 4:3 because it's been shooting on a torus screen set with very low contrast and brightness ... no wear.


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/12980831
> 
> 
> 4 - Gino is not so sold on this idea. For me this works - no product is going to please everyone.



Thanks for posting Andy, I was wondering when you were going to show up










I am fine with 1080p24, in fact that is ideal for HDM. But I'm a console gamer, PS3 and Xbox360 need to be at 1080p60.


----------



## nashou66

Gino I think if we wait a few months we might get what we ask for. Keep your fingers Crossed.


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/12985196
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting Andy, I was wondering when you were going to show up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am fine with 1080p24, in fact that is ideal for HDM. But I'm a console gamer, PS3 and Xbox360 need to be at 1080p60.



So if PS3 and xbox did 1080p24 or 1080p30 then would that solve this "Gamers" issue?


Of course thats only the bandwidth issue, the unit is still not HDCP compliant , but that can be solved by various other routes.


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/12986551
> 
> 
> So if PS3 and xbox did 1080p24 or 1080p30 then would that solve this "Gamers" issue?
> 
> 
> Of course thats only the bandwidth issue, the unit is still not HDCP compliant , but that can be solved by various other routes.



Andy, you can output 1080p24 from the PS3 (not sure about the Xbox360) but this is only of value for BD playback. Both consoles can output 1080i60. The problem here is that in future games will be true 1080p, and will be at 60fps. You need this high frame rate, especially for fast action games. So, not, doesn't ideally solve the "Gamers" issue without compromise.


I'm curious though, through our many previous conversations you knew I was quite interested in trying the 7200, but didn't follow through due to the apparent DVI limitation. Terry believes that there is no problem and that the unit is capable of sending 1600x1200p60 via DVI. Are you able to confirm this at all?


----------



## Chuchuf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/12988081
> 
> 
> I'm curious though, through our many previous conversations you knew I was quite interested in trying the 7200, but didn't follow through due to the apparent DVI limitation. Terry believes that there is no problem and that the unit is capable of sending 1600x1200p60 via DVI. Are you able to confirm this at all?



Gino,

Actually it's 1600x 1200 @72 that I have setup. And if you go to the other thread that Alan had started about blending you will see how I proved that indeed I am running digital in and digital out of the C2-7200 based on the Moome devices that are attached.


Terry


----------



## Chuchuf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mp20748* /forum/post/12982390
> 
> 
> Oh dang. What we're talking about here, being able to do 1600x1200 72hz on a G90??
> 
> 
> When y'all get a real challenge for my G90 mods - holla at me..



LOL.....it's just a mere 200MHz


Terry


----------



## nashou66

I am waiting an E-mail from the TV-one techs to verify or at least explain why Terry is able to do what he is doing. They have a trade show convention now in the Netherlads and are busy so in a couple weeks we should ahve our answer.


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH

Terry,


you might have missed this in post #10 above


"2&3 - Terry, despite what everyone is telling you it is worth checking quickly. Go into the output menu, you get a screen with Dig and Analogue output type , CHANGE the settings. When you Projectors show change then you have proved without doubt DIG or Analogue ."


RE output of 7200.


You should be able to run any resolution/refresh rate upto a bandwidth of 109MHz. There seem to be different ways people calculate that.


(Gino - this will also answer you question)


I run RGBHV output from my 7200 so I dont have a means to test the DVI output currently.


----------



## Ericglo

Andy,

I am glad that you are pursuing this, as blending looks like it has potential again. I had pretty much given up on there being a relatively inexpensive blending option before digital finally takes over.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/12980490
> 
> 
> Andy - Fantastic and much needed post!
> 
> 
> I agree with your choice of 1080X817 for 2.35 films as it allows the full horizontal resolution of 1920 and discards the black info from a 16:9 source. The end result is a drastic reduction in bandwidth each projector sees.
> 
> But, I have one question: Why don't you use 1080X1634 which would be doubling of the 817 and still within the resolving capabilities of your projectors? Should make for a bright, sharp picture. Or maybe 1080X1225? Still low bandwidth requirements.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/12981110
> 
> 
> Well I will try other options but currently my Cine9 pair have only been up a week so Im setting up. Entire Cinema is going for an upgrade



I don't see any reason to bother with what Bob is talking about. In Bob's scenario, you would be placing a 3x4 image on a 4x3 tube. If you maximize vertical phosphor usage, then you would only be using about half of the phosphor in the horizontal. I guess you could burn out one side of the tube and still have the other side as virgin phosphor.







Also, I am not sure how bandwidth affects the image in the vertical and horizontal for the same given bandwidth i.e. does 1600x1200 look the same as 1200x1600. Maybe tse could give some insight on this.


It is funny that you mentioned using the 1080x817, as I spent about half an hour last night looking at that same option. It looks like you could run 817p at 72 for a pixel clock of 97, at 96 for 129 and at 120 for 162.


----------



## Chuchuf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/12989264
> 
> 
> Terry,
> 
> 
> you might have missed this in post #10 above
> 
> 
> "2&3 - Terry, despite what everyone is telling you it is worth checking quickly. Go into the output menu, you get a screen with Dig and Analogue output type , CHANGE the settings. When you Projectors show change then you have proved without doubt DIG or Analogue ."



OK Andy, when I go to that output screen both the ANLOG and DIG ar set to [RGBHV]. If I select the ANLOG and change [RGBHV] to [YUV], the DIG also changes from [RGBHV] to [YUV] and the picture clearly changes. If I then select the DIG [RGBHV] and try to change that selection nothing else is available except [RGBHV] when I rotate the selector


Terry


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chuchuf* /forum/post/12990364
> 
> 
> OK Andy, when I go to that output screen both the ANLOG and DIG ar set to [RGBHV]. If I select the ANLOG and change [RGBHV] to [YUV], the DIG also changes from [RGBHV] to [YUV] and the picture clearly changes. If I then select the DIG [RGBHV] and try to change that selection nothing else is available except [RGBHV] when I rotate the selector
> 
> 
> Terry



Does that mean that digital can also be output RGBHV? I thouhgt that was an analog only format? I dont remember seeing that when i had the unit, I must have missed it.


Athanasios


----------



## jrwhite

Hi Terry / Andy,


I've used the 7xxx series a number of times for work related (broadcast graphics )system configurations. One of the challenges we faced with the 7xxx series was that if you fed it anything above 1280x1024 via DVI, it would get downsampled to 1280x1024 internally. To get around this ( and stay in the digital domain ) we had to feed them 1080i/60 via HD-SDI ( which worked great ).


I've spoken with their engineers in person at trade shows a number of times, and they said that the DVI max resolution was a hardware issue they couldn't fix. It was last April at NAB that I spoke with them last .. is there new developments on this? The spec sheet on their site still says 1280x1024 max via DVI.


Jonathan


----------



## Boilermaker

"I don't see any reason to bother with what Bob is talking about. In Bob's scenario, you would be placing a 3x4 image on a 4x3 tube. If you maximize vertical phosphor usage, then you would only be using about half of the phosphor in the horizontal. I guess you could burn out one side of the tube and still have the other side as virgin phosphor. Also, I am not sure how bandwidth affects the image in the vertical and horizontal for the same given bandwidth i.e. does 1600x1200 look the same as 1200x1600. Maybe tse could give some insight on this."


Ericglo - This is in the analog domain - not digital, so pixels are not square. The final output resolution fed to the projector(s) will not change the shape or size of the picture. It will still combine to 2.35 and fill both tubes both horizontally and vertically. What my intention is to not waste available bandwidth capability and vertical resolution capability by increasing the number of horizontal lines. Using only 817 lines on the full height of a 9" tube is not only a waste of resolution capability but it will create scan lines visible from 15 feet away.

Just a few years ago when scalers were new, we all marveled at how well 480i scaled up to 720, or 960P looked. I just want to do the same thing for the same reasons, and just like before, it will not change the size of the picture!


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chuchuf* /forum/post/12988232
> 
> 
> Gino,
> 
> Actually it's 1600x 1200 @72 that I have setup. And if you go to the other thread that Alan had started about blending you will see how I proved that indeed I am running digital in and digital out of the C2-7200 based on the Moome devices that are attached.



Yeh, typo, I knew it was 72hz but am used to writing 1600x1200p60 because i keep complaining about this limitation in the DVX.










It's not that I don't believe you Terry, just would be nice for Andy to confirm as he said that he had tried this already and it was limited, and the guys from TVOne are saying that it is limited.










If I decide to try one out, I'd hate to buy one and find out mine is limited.


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jrwhite* /forum/post/12991120
> 
> 
> Hi Terry / Andy,
> 
> 
> I've used the 7xxx series a number of times for work related (broadcast graphics )system configurations. One of the challenges we faced with the 7xxx series was that if you fed it anything above 1280x1024 via DVI, it would get downsampled to 1280x1024 internally. To get around this ( and stay in the digital domain ) we had to feed them 1080p/60 via HD-SDI ( which worked great ).
> 
> 
> I've spoken with their engineers in person at trade shows a number of times, and they said that the DVI max resolution was a hardware issue they couldn't fix. It was last April at NAB that I spoke with them last .. is there new developments on this? The spec sheet on their site still says 1280x1024 max via DVI.
> 
> 
> Jonathan



Thanks for this Jonathon, again this is inline with my current thinking, and I actually guessed that even if you were able to feed it something greater, due to the chip limitation it would downsample back to 1280x1024.


As far as 1080p/60 over HD-SDI, is this bandwidth available over single link or dual link? Can it go higher? Say 1080p72?


Did you test the DVI outs to have the same limitation?


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/12991969
> 
> 
> Using only 817 lines on the full height of a 9" tube is not only a waste of resolution capability but it will create scan lines visible from 15 feet away.
> 
> Just a few years ago when scalers were new, we all marveled at how well 480i scaled up to 720, or 960P looked. I just want to do the same thing for the same reasons, and just like before, it will not change the size of the picture!



When I read that Andy was doing 817 lines on a 9" tube, I thought the same thing, but he told me it wasn't an issue. Could be that he is using a relatively "small" screen for a blend setup


----------



## overclkr

Oh boy do I wish that Ken could measure that. That has got to be bright as hell.


And sharp as hell as well.


Cliff


----------



## MadMrH

*Just a quick note on scan lines.*


A single PJ on say a 12 foot screen will show the scan lines much more than the same PJ used in a blend.


The same is true for a 12 foot blend screen down to an 8 foot screen - the scan lines are less visible on the smaller screen.


However it is also true that you sit further away from the larger screen so there is a correlation between PJ distance from screen and Seated distance with respect to scan lines, This would then appear to have an "ideal" location.


Take into account different eye sights and we have a real complicated equation for the "ideal" scenario.


So what I think best for the question of scan lines is each to his/her own.


This also is the case for screen size, Most blending has been done on 12 foot screens, Mine is only eight foot wide.


As Cliff points out I am both Sharp and Bright, As Hell







.


----------



## oliverg

What a great thread.


Thanks guys!


----------



## MadMrH

*DVI TYPES*


The DVI style connector seems to add confusion here, There are FIVE types of DVI connection.


Please see here for examples
http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/dvi_info.html#Page06 

*TERRY* - It would appear the easy way to check you are running DVI-D all the way is to make sure your cables are all DVI-D type.


The most common seems to be DVI-I Dual Link and this is possible to run Analogue and Digital down this cable type.




I am trying to run some tests here with regards the input/output questions. I will also contact TVONE about some of the questions raised here. That will be next week as the main team I contact are away at a show.


I have the following here I can test

*INPUTS*


Toshiba HD DVD XA1 with HD SDI Modification - this will give me 1080i60 HD SDI output

Toshiba HD DVD XE1 (aka XA2) standard player

Samsung Blu Ray BDP-S1000 Standard USA player

Sony Blu Ray S1 with HD SDI Modification USA Player - This will give me 1080p24 HD SDI output (I need to check which other outputs are available, NOT ALL standard player outputs can be sent out via the HD SDI, This is a modification limitation and NOT TVONE limitation)

Gefen HD SDI to DVI-D scaler - This allows me to send DVI-D direct into the TVONE

HD Fury - Little hit n miss with this product but does give some RGBHV inputs into the TVONE unit, Again the limitation is the HD Fury - It does not give 1080p60 without the use of external power supply when used with an XE1.


(Moome External box on order)

*Outputs*


Barco Cine9 (RGBHV)

NEC 50" Plasma (DVI & RGBHV)

PC Monitor - (DVI & RGBHV)


Phew! That looks like my weekend is now planned


----------



## Gino AUS

Andy, it will be great if this units DVI is up to scratch. The moome external will make connection to the 7200 a breeze. I am using it and sending 1080p72 over DVI without problems.


----------



## Chuchuf

Guys,


I have explained the physical hookup on this a few times on the other thread and here so I am not going to go into it again.

I have also contacted Moome on the EXT-HD and Marquee VIM-HD and he responded to me that the DVI output and HDMI input are digital only. The phyical connector on the EXT-HD is DVI-D single layer (Gino you have one so please confirm on yours) Kal has also emailed me that the EXT-HD DVI out is digital only.

So as far as I'm concerned I have done all the checking I can do and am convinced that the signal coming into the C2-7200 and going out of the C2-7200 is digital. I don't see how it can be anything else. The cables certainly aren't doing a DA or A/D.


Terry


----------



## zGman

Hi Andy,


Terry's experimental set-up is all digital signal path to the PJ's.


Toshiba hdmi>>>Moome DVI-D>>>7200 DVI input>>>DVI output>>>hdmi moome VIM.


The connector for output on the moome external box is DVI-D, there are NO

analog pins. The connections from the 7200 are DVI to hdmi cables, and

Moome has confirmed there is NO analog signal path in his hdmi VIM.


Terry has also confirmed the input frequencies on the Ultra's match

the output configuration of the 7200, eg. there is NO "down-rezzing"


Cheers,

Galen


----------



## Chuchuf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jrwhite* /forum/post/12991120
> 
> 
> Hi Terry / Andy,
> 
> 
> One of the challenges we faced with the 7xxx series was that if you fed it anything above 1280x1024 via DVI, it would get downsampled to 1280x1024 internally. To get around this ( and stay in the digital domain ) we had to feed them 1080p/60 via HD-SDI ( which worked great ).
> 
> Jonathan



Hi Jonathan and thankes for your input.

When you fed DVI-D above 1280x1024 are you saying that there is a downsampling that lead to an output from the C2-7xxx of 1280x1024?

If so I am not seeing this as I can see that the projector is running at 90khz 72hz which would be the same as the 1600x 1200 @72 I have the C2 set to.


Terry


----------



## jrwhite

Hi Gino,


Typo on my part, we were running 1080i/60 via single link. We were testing with 1080p via VGA.


AFIK, there were no limits on the DVI-D out, just the DVI-D in.


Jonathan


----------



## MadMrH

Hi Terry,


I see you are sending 1080p24 INTO the TVONE unit.

*This is possible via DVI-D, you can go upto 1080p30 in the INPUTS via DVI-D.*


In fact that is what I do with my XA1 HD SDI output 1080i60 into Gefen unit which gives 1080p24 or 30 output into the 7200.


NOTHING ABOVE 1080p30 will be accepted on the input.


So that is the input to the unit agreed that 1080p24 or 1080p30 is possible.



(internal downscale I will have to check with TVONE but that has not cropped up in conversations to date, ALSO HD SDI maxium input I will try and test, Followed by output DVI-D - ONE stage at a time........)


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> I will also contact TVONE about some of the questions raised here. That will be next week as the main team I contact are away at a show.



I also have sent e-mails to Dan Gibson at Tv-one and he contacted the tech's at the show and they might respond on this thread directly. I hope they do as this will be Great to have th TV-One people on board here at AVS.


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jrwhite* /forum/post/12998756
> 
> 
> Hi Gino,
> 
> 
> Typo on my part, we were running 1080i/60 via single link. We were testing with 1080p via VGA.
> 
> 
> AFIK, there were no limits on the DVI-D out, just the DVI-D in.
> 
> 
> Jonathan



OK, If here we mean via HD SDI Single link 1080i60 is possible then yes I totally agree and have run this without question direct from my Toshiba XA1 (Its highest possible output)


You can also run 1080p24 or 1080p30 via HD SDI into the 7200 - I have 1080p24 running via HD SDI direct from my Sony S1.


Outputs: I have to date only been running VGA to my PJ's, So will need a little setting up if I am to try DVI-D outputs.


----------



## Chuchuf

As zGman pointed out but with cables and resolutions added it is:


Toshiba HD-DVD hdmi (1080P24) w/ HDMI ->HDMI cable >>>Moome EXT HD DVI-D(1080P24) DVI-D -> HDMI cable going through a HDMI/DVI adapter plugged into the 7200>>>7200 DVI input>>>DVI output([email protected]) w/ DVI-D ->HDMI cable>>>hdmi moome VIM.


Terry


----------



## Chuchuf

AND here is the email I received from Kal when I started to question all of this w/ Moome:


Hi Terry!


Kal here! The HDMI input on the VIM-HD is 100% digital. HDMI does not have any way of passing analog signals. So by spec, the plug is definitely 100% digital only.

The output of the VIM-HD onto the Marquee backplane is of course analog.


The DVI-D output of the EXT-HD is indeed digital only (not DVI-A or DVI-I). There is no analog part at all.


Kal


----------



## Chuchuf

Also, this is the exact setup, cables and pojectors I had when testing the 8022 except that I don't need the VP50Pro in this setup between the Toshiba and Moome EXTHD and it was all digital as well.


Terry


----------



## jrwhite

Hi Terry,


No, we were testing dual PIP mode, and everything was scaled to the window size at the spcified output resolution ( including having the window at full screen ). I also seem to remember testing in Switcher Mode, and the input was scaled to the specified output resolution.


Jonathan


----------



## MadMrH

NO ONE TYPE ANYTHING FOR A FEW MINUTES PLEASE.........................


I have the answers just need to type !!!


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/12999298
> 
> 
> NO ONE TYPE ANYTHING FOR A FEW MINUTES PLEASE.........................
> 
> 
> I have the answers just need to type !!!



Easy there big fella !










Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH

CONFIRMED INPUTS:


DVI-D will accept 1080p30 as its MAXIMUM input signal

HD-SDI will accept 1080p30 as its MAXIMUM input signal.


BOTH of these are not down scaled in any way within the TVONE unit


(unless you output at a lower resolution of course)


OUTPUTS , EDIT : DIGITAL OUTPUT via DVI-D


the OUTPUT has a maximum bandwidth of 108Mhz


[email protected] is 162Mhz bandwidth.


It will *NOT* output [email protected] , *BUT* your projector WILL see the output as if it were [email protected]


How does this happen?


Easy when you know how.........


ANYTHING above the 108MHz limit is downscaled to fit the bandwidth, BUT ALL sync pulses are kept intact. Thus the PJ thinks it has a [email protected] signal but in fact the resolution is less and kept within the 108Mhz Bandwidth.


This info has come directly from TVONE, I hope I have relayed it all correctly.


This now makes what Terry is seeing understandable.


----------



## Chuchuf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/12999395
> 
> 
> ANYTHING above the 108MHz limit is downscaled to fit the bandwidth, BUT ALL sync pulses are kept intact. Thus the PJ thinks it has a [email protected] signal but in fact the resolution is less and kept within the 108Mhz Bandwidth.
> 
> 
> This info has come directly from TVONE, I hope I have relayed it all correctly.
> 
> 
> This now makes what Terry is seeing understandable.



This makes no sense to me at all as at the PJ I am seeing frequencies if


----------



## Chuchuf

I think I see what is happening now.


read this http://www.eepn.com/Locator/Products...510/34510.html 


and this http://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=vidband3 


The first article point out that UXGA (1600 x 1200 @60) requires 87 MHz.


But that in order to pass the high frequency stuff we need a much higher bandwidth 2-3 times the original bandwidth defined as (Tp x Vt)/2


So the original bandwidth of a 1600 x 1200 @72 is ((1600 x 1200) x 72) / 2 = 69.12 MHz.


Based on that the TV One can process the base video signal it just won't be able to do anything above 108MHz acording to what you are saying Andy.


This explain why I am see what I am and I believe that I am receiving a 1600 x 1200 @72 at the PJ, it is just limited in bandwidth.


Terry


----------



## MadMrH

Terry,


The PJ WILL run at 72Hz, the PJ WILL think it is a high bandwidth signal as ALL the sync pulses will tell it that. The actual resolution WONT be the 1600x1200


So what you report to seeing is I believe correct, just that the PJ is fooled into thinking it has the full signal when in reality the resolution is lower. Refresh rate will still be @ 72Hz.



This makes sense to me.


----------



## MadMrH

Terry,


I need to pop out for an hour or so......


Just looking quickly at your last post are they [email protected] I or P ???


They look like I values.....I will check in more detail when I return.


Andy.


----------



## Boilermaker

Andy - When you say that the output is limited to 108Mhz, are you speaking only of the digital output, or both digital and analog outputs?

Hopefully only the digital output has this limitation!


----------



## Chuchuf

OK guys, quick and dirty test to see if I can see a difference between the analog and digital out's of the C2-7100.

I left output 2B digital as it has been hooked up all along.

I then took output 1A via a DVI-VGA dongle hooked up RGBHV to input 1 of the PJ through the bnc connectors

Mind you I don't have perfect focus nor perfect convergence or geometry on the PJ's as I am shooting on a wall and didn't think I needed that for my initial tests. So the PJ's are certainly off.

I then used the multiburst pattern in the HD version of VE and could no see any high frequency rolloff of PJ 2 (full digital on output 2B)

I don't have time to test any more today but tomorrow I will do further testing with higher resolution test patterns and see what the difference is between analog out and digital out of the C2-7200.


Alan if you are reading this tell them I need the unit for a few more days.


Terry


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/13000834
> 
> 
> Andy - When you say that the output is limited to 108Mhz, are you speaking only of the digital output, or both digital and analog outputs?
> 
> Hopefully only the digital output has this limitation!



Yes, Digital Output.


Tha Analogue output seems to be designed for something that NASA might have as a concept as it runs seriously high bandwidth......


I will correct prior post.


Andy.


----------



## scottatl

Terry,


When is the big demo party


----------



## alan halvorson

If I ever go to a blend system - which won't be for a couple years or so - I will have to go cheap. The most likely candidate for cheap right now is a pair of TVONE C2-260 PC cards. What I want to know is about Genlock. This is easily done on the dual scaler TVONE C2-7000 series but not so on the single scaler options. As I read the manual, if you want to genlock between two single TVONE scalers you cannot use the RGB input. This I don't want to do. What is given up, if anything, by not using the genlock option?


----------



## scottatl

One thing does not make sense about blending to me. The sharpest part of the CRT is the center. With blend you are putting two sides in the center forcing the least sharp part of the picture to be right dab in the most important part of the film.


----------



## MadMrH

Hi Alan,


I have tested this with the 7200 NOT genlocked.


I have NEVER had an issue without genlock.


Of course for peace of mind I have output2 genlocked to output1.


With the 260 cards you use a signal splitter prior to the cards.


I dont see that the lack of genlock will be an issue (But not tested that with the 260 option)


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottatl* /forum/post/13008998
> 
> 
> One thing does not make sense about blending to me. The sharpest part of the CRT is the center. With blend you are putting two sides in the center forcing the least sharp part of the picture to be right dab in the most important part of the film.



Sort of.......


With ONE PJ you run MUCH higher bandwidth and that does soften the image - more so I would say than the optics cause.


(EDIT : large screen blends tend to use HFQ900 Barco or HD10F Sony lens sets, I have actualy run HFQ900 on my 8 foot wide blend)


With the blend much lower bandwidth for each PJ and so already sharper than the single PJ option, Add in the brightness given as well and these are all plus points in favour of the blend over single PJ - This is from the view of best possible image and does not include thoughts for £/$ !


----------



## MadMrH

I have just setup a *custom resolution in the TVONE 7200 unit*.


Easy to do.


1. Run Resolution editor on PC, PC will need an RS232 port.

2. Load resolutions from TVONE unit - takes about 10 seconds

3. Create new resolution, to do this just type into text boxes the H res, V res and refresh rate - Simple.

4. press "create resolution" button.

5. load into TVONE unit - takes about 10 seconds.


Job Done.


So now I'm running 1089 x 817 @ 72 for each output via RGBHV analogue


NO SCAN lines, VERY Bright picture










And detail to die for







But that's BARCO for ya!


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> NO SCAN lines, VERY Bright picture
> 
> 
> And detail to die for But that's BARCO for ya!



ehhh you and your Barcos










Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS

This is all very interesting stuff, thanks Andy and Terry










Looks like I'll be sticking with the trusty ol' DVX8022/BlendZilla for now.


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alan halvorson* /forum/post/13008357
> 
> 
> If I ever go to a blend system - which won't be for a couple years or so - I will have to go cheap. The most likely candidate for cheap right now is a pair of TVONE C2-260 PC cards. What I want to know is about Genlock. This is easily done on the dual scaler TVONE C2-7000 series but not so on the single scaler options. As I read the manual, if you want to genlock between two single TVONE scalers you cannot use the RGB input. This I don't want to do. What is given up, if anything, by not using the genlock option?



I tested the 260 cards.

I expect them to be replaced by another product this year, hopefully without the input chipset limitation and at least DVI in- if not output.


Genlock was NOT an issue in my tests - I ran video to both cards and it was in perfect sync.


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottatl* /forum/post/13008998
> 
> 
> One thing does not make sense about blending to me. The sharpest part of the CRT is the center. With blend you are putting two sides in the center forcing the least sharp part of the picture to be right dab in the most important part of the film.



I tried a blend with an 8" NEC 9PG plus and 8" 9PG extra and they were sharper than the 909 - that should answer your question










So while there is a dropoff to the sides it is not as much of an issue as one might think and it is less of a problem with projectors that focus as good out to the edges as the G90 and the 909/Cine9.


----------



## Chuchuf

Did some tests yesterday w/ the TVOne C2-7200.


First I took the HDMI out of the HDDVD player set at 1080P60 and ran it into the Moome EXT-HD and then took the DVI out and RGBHV out and ran that into the Marquee inputs, one RGBHV Input one the other the Moome Card HDMI Input 2.

Looked at high resolution patterns from DVI HD DVD that included one line set to 1080P. Clearly the lines were resolved very well on both inputs.


I then hooked the HD DVD player set to 1080P24 up to the the Moome EXT HD via HDVI and DVI out to the TVOne's HDMI input. On one output I used a DVI/VGA dongel and it went to input one of the Marquee via RGBHV. Output 2 DVI-D was then sent to the HDMI in on the Moome card on the Marquee so it was digital. This way I could compare both the digital and analog outputs of the C2-7200.

Here is what I noticed.


1. At 1600 x 1200 @ 72 hz, the patterns didn't look as good as when fed directly to the PJ either digital or analog. This may be due to scalling error or the PJ.


2. At 1920 x 1080P @60, the patterns looked almost the same on both the digital and analog side of the C2-7200 and they looked almost as good as the patterns when the signals were sent directly to the projector from the HD DVD player.


3. I had a quick look at other resolutions (1280 x 1024 @60, 1400 x 1050 @ 60) and while the patterns didn't look as good as the 1920 x 1080P @ 60 setup they did look better than the 1600 x 1200 @72 setup.


From this I concluded:


1. With these high resolution test patterns I could see no difference between the analog and digital outs of the C2-7200 no matter what the resolution. If it was good, both sides were good and visa versa. This is interesting and coincides with the results I got previously indicating that the digital out is doing as good a job and the analog out.


2. 1920 x 1080P produced the best test pattern out of the C2-7200 and it was close to the same between the digital and analog outs. They were also close to the results I got when running the HD-DVD player directly to the Marquee via the EXT-HD.


More tests to follow. These mainly showed that both the analog and digital out's of the C2-7200 can be used with the same results.


Terry


----------



## Chuchuf

I think I will have a look at 1440 x 1080P today as that would be a 4:3 resolution for each PJ. And with about a 10% blend zone would be almost a perfect 2.4:1 A/R.


Terry


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottatl* /forum/post/13008998
> 
> 
> One thing does not make sense about blending to me. The sharpest part of the CRT is the center. With blend you are putting two sides in the center forcing the least sharp part of the picture to be right dab in the most important part of the film.



Yes, it is more commonly known that the center of CRT is the sharpest. And in most cases it is because most CRT's do not have good focus out to the edges.


There's two reasons for this. One is the design of the set itself, and the other is the lenses that were being used.


Blending is sort of new to me. Most of my A/V experience was dealing with Edge Matching. Which is another way to bring images together (non seamless).


In the higher end simulation/blend systems of today, the lenses used on the Marquee's, G90 and Barco 1209 would not be "simulation/blend rated" lenses. And that's where the HFQ900 came into existence. They are special lenses designed for this purpose. It's more of a solid lens design, which is known to be both expensive and would be very different from the multi-element lens designs of past.


The HFQ900 are very linear, with almost no optical aberrations out to the edges of the image. Which makes for the perfect lens for simulation, Blending and high end HT systems.


I'm now in the blend camp. Servicing and maintaining close to a dozen simulation/blend systems along the central east coast. From time to time, I get to meet up with others who design and also service these setups.


Learning about the HFQ's and why there's a 1400x1050 resolution being used in most of them is interesting. Though most of the immersive (stereoscopic) blend setups use 1280x1024 @96hz.


With blending, it is very important to use the right resolution/aspect, which would produce the perfect 4:3 pattern for each projected image.


----------



## Chuchuf

OK I have pretty much finished testing the C2-7200 and have concluded the following using 1080P24 HDMI input.


1. I cannot see the difference between analog output and digital output. This was tested at various resolutions up to 1600 x 1200 @72

2. The ability to create custom resolutions (very easy) is a powerful part of this scaler/blender and is a big plus

3. The ability to zoom vertically and horizontally really helps you to get the best test patterns out.

4. Blending is very easy on the C2

5. Unit is small in size

6. Although I would like to see 1080P60 input it certainly isn't a deal breaker in this case.

7. Individual control over the blend zones allows for a lot of tweaking in that area.


As you can tell I am very pleased with the C2-7200 and wouldn't hesitate to use it over the 8022 in most cases where blending is needed and the need for a 1080P60 input isn't necessary.


I believe that I will be setting up the G90's individually at somewhere around 1440 x 1080P 60 and 72hz. I like the idea of going to a higher resolution than the 8XX resolution Andy is using to avoid scan nines. Remember that we are going to be using the entire height of the tube and resolutions of 8XX on a 16:9 picture can be seen in a G90 because of it's great focusing abilities. But I may change my mind on this in the future. With custom resolutions anything is possible.


I have pretty much concluded the testing I am going to do for now so the unit I have will have to go back as it is a factory demo.


Terry


----------



## alan halvorson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/13023294
> 
> 
> I tested the 260 cards.
> 
> I expect them to be replaced by another product this year, hopefully without the input chipset limitation and at least DVI in- if not output.
> 
> 
> Genlock was NOT an issue in my tests - I ran video to both cards and it was in perfect sync.



Thanks for the genlock answer. That's what I was hoping for.


Do you have some information about a new card or are you expressing a desire for a new card? I was considering getting one C2-260 and when I was ready, another. But not if something new and improved is coming this year.


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chuchuf* /forum/post/13023490
> 
> 
> I think I will have a look at 1440 x 1080P today as that would be a 4:3 resolution for each PJ. And with about a 10% blend zone would be almost a perfect 2.4:1 A/R.



Terry - that would be the optimum resolution to send, that is what I have been begging analogway to allow... 1440x1080p72


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alan halvorson* /forum/post/13027395
> 
> 
> Thanks for the genlock answer. That's what I was hoping for.
> 
> 
> Do you have some information about a new card or are you expressing a desire for a new card? I was considering getting one C2-260 and when I was ready, another. But not if something new and improved is coming this year.



Alan, didn't you say you would want to wait more than a year ?

But I can understand that waiting is hard in such a case










I am not privvy to information with regard to what exactly TV One plans with regard to releases but I think that it has come to their attention that the 108Mhz input bandwidth is rather low and that the analog inputs of the cards seriously diminish picture quality. I would not think that analog outputs if properly implemented would be a problem but having a D/A and A/D conversion on the input side seems to cause problems.


And as you know when starting out with a certain kind of product most companies tend to release a successor to the first one rather fast and the C2-260 is already out for some time so we can at least hope


----------



## alan halvorson




> Quote:
> Alan, didn't you say you would want to wait more than a year ?



Yes, I did. I think it will be longer than that to attempt an actual blend. But I would like a scaler now and rather than waste money on a non-blending scaler, I thought to spread the cost out and get one C2-260 now and another later when I have found another projector and my situation changes so that I can use it.


----------



## Oliver Klohs

The C2-260 is not comparable to a scaler at all, I suggest to spend the money on a Lumagen HDP if you want to buy a low priced scaler. Chances are that in another year you will be able to use the splitted DV output from the HDP to feed some kind of TV One product with DVI in.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/13042517
> 
> 
> The C2-260 is not comparable to a scaler at all, I suggest to spend the money on a Lumagen HDP if you want to buy a low priced scaler. Chances are that in another year you will be able to use the splitted DV output from the HDP to feed some kind of TV One product with DVI in.



I agree with Oliver, the card is not really a good option for a satand alone scaler, but thier boxed units are not bad if you only plan on doing the analog blend go with one of there lower priced box sclaer/blending units i think the C2-1250 or something like that does it for under 1700 just a bit more than the lumagen.


http://www.tvone.com/c2-1200-1250-main.shtml 


And if you wanted some more inputs you could always add their input adapter box that conects to any C2 unit , this is the S2 series of input boxes like this DVI unit...

http://www.tvone.com/s2-105dvia-main.shtml 





Athanasios


----------



## alan halvorson

Ok, thanks for the advice on the C2-260. But I'm curious as to why you say it. Doesn't the C2-260 basically use the same Corio2 scaler that the C2-1250 and others use? It certainly isn't as convenient for inputs and outputs, but it's adequate for my purposes as all I need is one RGB and one component input and one RGB output. It doesn't downscale but then neither does the C2-1250. But I have no experience with either so I'm just wondering. Price matters to me right now.


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13043550
> 
> 
> And if you wanted some more inputs you could always add their input adapter box that conects to any C2 unit , this is the S2 series of input boxes like this DVI unit...
> 
> http://www.tvone.com/s2-105dvia-main.shtml
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Just a quick note here.


This unit will attach to the 1000, 2000 & 7000 series units.


It has a 165MHz bandwidth for DVI-D.

*PLEASE NOTE :* The main scaler acts as a control for input switching of the slave device. The output is then passed into the main scaler - This unit DOES NOT give 165MHz bandwidth to the funtcions of the main scaler, instead it either operates standalone (165Mhz in / out) or under control of main scaler where the bandwidth is set by the main unit output.


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alan halvorson* /forum/post/13044385
> 
> 
> Ok, thanks for the advice on the C2-260. But I'm curious as to why you say it. Doesn't the C2-260 basically use the same Corio2 scaler that the C2-1250 and others use? It certainly isn't as convenient for inputs and outputs, but it's adequate for my purposes as all I need is one RGB and one component input and one RGB output. It doesn't downscale but then neither does the C2-1250. But I have no experience with either so I'm just wondering. Price matters to me right now.



Alan,


I have a Lumagen and I have tested the C2-260. There is just no comparison in picture quality. I you don't believe me get both for yourself, the difference is so easy to see it's not funny.


As to the other devices I think they might give much better results because of their digital inputs, probably the analog input stage is mainly responsible for the not so hot picture quality.


Oliver


----------



## MadMrH

Another useful feature of the TVONE unit



The LED's are dimable From 100% right down to OFF (one of my requests







)


And the LCD Backlight can be turned off from the menu, I have set up a Macro to switch it on/off. Might even be able to use a preset button - not sure about that as this is a very recent addition to the firmware - available in the current downloadable firmware (and another one of my requests







)


One request still to add is a title screen where you can add your own text as a unit title or info screen.


This will be of use to those that use two 2000 series units, each can be named "Blend Left" , "Blend Right" or any other name you want "Mad World Cinema" etc.


This is still one on the request list, not all make it to final firmware but I can say that 90+% of my requests have made it.


TVONE are a very customer based company.


Of course my best request to date was when I asked for the original blend gamma control to have greater control - Its easy to ask for these things. TVONE then looked into how this could be done and added it into the firmware. Like I say easy to ask TVONE did all the hard work.


----------



## TVOneEngineer

Hi Guys,

Quick intro... Im one of the design engineers for TV One... yes feel free to bombard me with questions.


Thanks Andy for that excellent post covering the 7000 series unit - yep I do try to put in most of your feature requests, and your edge blending input has been fantastic ;-)


As Dan mentioned in his email there are some developments comming in the near furture along the hardware lines that should make you all happy. There is also a new firmware update comming my the end of Q1 with a whole raft of improvements and feature modifications.


As Andy says we are pretty good at listing to what you guys want so let me know your wish lists.


I now open the flood gates for questions and feature requests !


Regards,


Rob


----------



## nashou66

Rob , Welcome to our AVS CRT forum! I am excited to hear about the new hardware that will be comming out as the info presents itself. Edge blending here has been domintated by Analog Way's DiVentix scaler and with the arival of the Tv-One units it gives many who do not have the financial resourses a chance to also experiance the superior image of a well set up CRT blend. So from me and I am sure evryone else Thank you for honoring out request to Join AVS and keep us all updated to any new develpments form Tv-One. Id also Like to thank Dan Gibson And Steve Tullo for relaying any info I have been giving them to you Engineer's. Keep up the Excelent work!!!!!


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Rob - This is excellent news and has me excited. Could you release a little info on your new plans and an approximate schedule of such release(s)?

If you are still at the beginning stages of design, I would like to make a recommendation for an entry level product whereby new prospects could use there existing scalers.

Think of a C2-260 that has the 15 pin HD-15 input and output dongles replaced with DVI-I's that could accept both analog and digital inputs and outputs. Also, as long as the digital input has bandwidth capabilities up to [email protected], my check would be in the mail!


Thanks for listening,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

The main this for me is Higher bandwidth capability. 11 point gama for both the blend zone and the non blend zone seperate of each other so as once the blend zone gama is set you can either have a global gama adjustment or seperate gama for each output exluding the blend zone. this way you can adjust the blend zone and do a global gama for the whole image and if need go into each output and touch up for any differneces of the projectors. Also HDCP compliance would be a big big big plus, and hopefully a lower price than the C2-7200.


Athanasios


----------



## Ericglo

Mad,

Have you checked out the lower priced models and their ability to do edge blending?


----------



## antorsae

Hi Bob,


I have a 8022 myself. Based on reports it looks like the TV-ONE has better control over the blend zone and ARs. Are there any plans to include 1080p60 input, or better still some arbitrary resolution such as 1920x800p72 which would be the ideal input resolution for 2.40:1 and smooth 72 Hz?


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ericglo* /forum/post/13115689
> 
> 
> Mad,
> 
> Have you checked out the lower priced models and their ability to do edge blending?



Hi, No at the time I decided on the 7200 as it was the best available and offered HD SDI input/output.


Is there a particular product you would like to know about?


The C2 series all use the same "main brain" inputs, outputs and some functions make the differance between each product.


The edge blend option is a core part of the main brain.


If there is ONE main product that a number of people would like to know about then I might consider running a side by side test of the 7200 vs ???


Andy.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> The S2 series all use the same "main brain" inputs, outputs and some functions make the differance between each product.



Andy I think you mean the C2 series.


Andy I had the C2-2250 for a demo but could not test it working with the C2-7200 since i only had one PJ running at the time however i did test it as a stand alone scaler and it worked well as that. Could you possiblly test that unit as a pair of even with the one output of the 7200. I wanted to see how they worked with each other. That is if the comunicate with each other of if they have to be controled as two stand alone units.


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13124346
> 
> 
> Andy I think you mean the C2 series.



Yep, just testing you are awake







Edited original post.


C2 is short for Corio2 the "Main Brain" of these products.



> Quote:
> Andy I had the C2-2250 for a demo but could not test it working with the C2-7200 since i only had one PJ running at the time however i did test it as a stand alone scaler and it worked well as that. Could you possiblly test that unit as a pair of even with the one output of the 7200. I wanted to see how they worked with each other. That is if the comunicate with each other of if they have to be controled as two stand alone units.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



A new firmware release is due out, Once that is available then I think thats a good time to test this option.


I am not hands on familiar with the C2-2250 product - BUT I believe these need to be treated as two seperate units.


What I should add is that EVEN if you run the 7200 it is still best to treat each Projector as a seperate item.


Even my consecutive serial number projectors still have slight differances between them.


The ability of the TVONE product to address each output as its own identity should be seen as a plus point.


To get the perfect blend my settings are not identical for each projector - very very close but not identical.


Andy.


----------



## Ericglo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/13122348
> 
> 
> Hi, No at the time I decided on the 7200 as it was the best available and offered HD SDI input/output.
> 
> 
> Is there a particular product you would like to know about?
> 
> 
> The C2 series all use the same "main brain" inputs, outputs and some functions make the differance between each product.
> 
> 
> The edge blend option is a core part of the main brain.
> 
> 
> If there is ONE main product that a number of people would like to know about then I might consider running a side by side test of the 7200 vs ???
> 
> 
> Andy.



I was curious about the lower end models like the 1250. I just looked and I guess you need two of these to do blending. The price of two is still pretty good at around $2k to $2500.


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13052235
> 
> 
> Rob , Welcome to our AVS CRT forum! I am excited to hear about the new hardware that will be comming out as the info presents itself. Edge blending here has been domintated by Analog Way's DiVentix scaler and with the arival of the Tv-One units it gives many who do not have the financial resourses a chance to also experiance the superior image of a well set up CRT blend. So from me and I am sure evryone else Thank you for honoring out request to Join AVS and keep us all updated to any new develpments form Tv-One. Id also Like to thank Dan Gibson And Steve Tullo for relaying any info I have been giving them to you Engineer's. Keep up the Excelent work!!!!!
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Thanks for the Great greeting  Glad to be here


Rob


----------



## TVOneEngineer

Hi Bob,

Ok here goes...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/13077162
> 
> 
> Rob - This is excellent news and has me excited. Could you release a little info on your new plans and an approximate schedule of such release(s)?



Id love to tell you everything we are working on at the moment but that would give too much away to the competition







However I can tell you that we are working on the 1080P60 issue. We are also working on a new firmware release for all the C2 units with lots of extra goodies and a few bug fixes. There will also be a few of the internal features expanded to allow for even more accurate Gamma correction. Watch this space !!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/13077162
> 
> 
> If you are still at the beginning stages of design, I would like to make a recommendation for an entry level product whereby new prospects could use there existing scalers.
> 
> Think of a C2-260 that has the 15 pin HD-15 input and output dongles replaced with DVI-I's that could accept both analog and digital inputs and outputs. Also, as long as the digital input has bandwidth capabilities up to [email protected], my check would be in the mail!
> 
> Thanks for listening,
> 
> Bob



Suggestions noted, a few questions - is it down to cost or the form factor that is drawing you to the 260 card?


One big problem with this type of card being DVI would be getting a good connection for the DVI receiver chip that is capable of the full 165MHz bandwidth without any crosstalk or impedance issues - and that doesn't cost a fortune - so how about in the form factor of sasy a 1T-C2-100 series?


Best regards

Rob


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13077553
> 
> 
> The main this for me is Higher bandwidth capability. 11 point gama for both the blend zone and the non blend zone seperate of each other so as once the blend zone gama is set you can either have a global gama adjustment or seperate gama for each output exluding the blend zone. this way you can adjust the blend zone and do a global gama for the whole image and if need go into each output and touch up for any differneces of the projectors. Also HDCP compliance would be a big big big plus, and hopefully a lower price than the C2-7200.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Hi Athanasios,

Hmm intresting, the higher bandwidth shouldn't be a problem







11 point gamma - is possible, seperate blend zome and global gamma .. hmm hadn't thought of that - ill add it to the list of - "work out how to do this"







HDCP also shouldn't be a problem providing we follow the HDCP in and HDCP rules none of the naughty HDCP stripping im affraid !!


Thanks for your comments - they have been noted.


Best regards


Rob


----------



## antorsae

Hi again Bob, I posted this in the previous page:


I have a 8022 myself. Based on reports it looks like the TV-ONE has better control over the blend zone and ARs.

*Are there any plans to include 1080p60 input*?, or better still some arbitrary resolution such as 1920x800p72 which would be the ideal input resolution for 2.40:1 and smooth 72 Hz?


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *antorsae* /forum/post/13116571
> 
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> 
> I have a 8022 myself. Based on reports it looks like the TV-ONE has better control over the blend zone and ARs. Are there any plans to include 1080p60 input, or better still some arbitrary resolution such as 1920x800p72 which would be the ideal input resolution for 2.40:1 and smooth 72 Hz?



Hi there,

As MadH has corretly quoted before - because of the way the CORIO engine works we can do any resolution providing its within our maximumn bandwidth and of a resolution no greater than 2048x2048. So 1920x800p72 ~154MHz pixel clock would not be possible on current units - but watch this space










Thanks


Rob


----------



## TVOneEngineer

Hi All,

Yes all the C2 units that do edge blending are the same, except on the 1K and 2K because there is only one engine then you need two units to create a blend.


Then which one do I buy i here you say.. well it all depends on the input and outputs that you need; the C2-260 card is pure analogue to RGBHV/YPbPr/CV in and RGBHV out the C2-1000 series moves to a boxed form factor with simular I/O, the C2-2000 series then goes digital and provides DVI in and out and SD-SDI to the mix, finally the C2-7K series provides DVI and HD-SDI and has two scalers in one 19" rack unit.


Hope that is clear


Regards

Rob


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> *Are there any plans to include 1080p60 input*?, or better still some arbitrary resolution such as 1920x800p72 which would be the ideal input resolution for 2.40:1 and smooth 72 Hz?



All I can say is watch this space ... soon... nod nod wink wink










Regards


Rob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/13161197
> 
> 
> Hi Athanasios,
> 
> Hmm intresting, the higher bandwidth shouldn't be a problem
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 11 point gamma - is possible, seperate blend zome and global gamma .. hmm hadn't thought of that - ill add it to the list of - "work out how to do this"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HDCP also shouldn't be a problem providing we follow the HDCP in and HDCP rules none of the naughty HDCP stripping im affraid !!
> 
> 
> Thanks for your comments - they have been noted.
> 
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 
> Rob



Thanks Bob! Hdcp for us isnt a problem either. Most have hdcp compliant Moome card's for our crts so we can play blu-ray and HD-DVD movies at full 1080p.Since your units accept 1080p24, [email protected] hz output would the bomb! I know some here would like also i Higher input capability of 1080p60 even maybey as high as 1080p72/75 for those who want to use thier HTPC's with a blend unit. The seperate zone and global gamma would be a real big benifit if some might want to do a blend with different crts. one might do gamma better than the other. Being able to tweek each of the three zones would be aewsome.


I'm saving my cash for this new unit or upgraded unit!


Athanasios


----------



## Lewis837

I don't profess to understand all there is about blending but I am trying! My question is simple. In the TVONE solution you "zoom" each scaler in to create a picture that is ~60% of the original and then over lap the two with blending.


What troubles me is that in my experience "zooming" always creates artifacts and degrades the picture in some way. Wouldn't it be better to "crop" the original picture (that is only supply the desired 60% to each projector without alteration) before passing it to the projector instead of zooming? I couldn't find a way to "crop" the signal when I played with the TVONE solution and when I zoomed it I saw artifacts.


What am I missing or is my ignorance showing? Please remember I said I was no expert but just someone trying to learn!


----------



## alan halvorson




> Quote:
> Suggestions noted, a few questions - is it down to cost or the form factor that is drawing you to the 260 card?



Cost for me! A pair of C2-260's would be ideal, although someone has mentioned that the C2-260 is lacking in PQ compared to a Lumagen. In what areas it is lacking, I don't know. I thought all the C2 blending scalers used the same basic firmware, differing in features.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/13161297
> 
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> As MadH has corretly quoted before - because of the way the CORIO engine works we can do any resolution providing its within our maximumn bandwidth and of a resolution no greater than 2048x2048. So 1920x800p72 ~154MHz pixel clock would not be possible on current units - but watch this space
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Rob



What is the actual formula for bandwith of a resolution? I thought the above would come to 110mhz? isnt it 1920*800*72=110.6MHz.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> One big problem with this type of card being DVI would be getting a good connection for the DVI receiver chip that is capable of the full 165MHz bandwidth without any crosstalk or impedance issues - and that doesn't cost a fortune - so how about in the form factor of sasy a 1T-C2-100 series?



Rob,

I reviewed your 1T-C2-100 series and it appears to be a C2-260 in a box with a plug for a power supply. This platform would work perfectly especially since you have a nice set of rack ears for mounting two at a time.

I would suggest replacing the existing HD-15 analog inputs/outputs with DVI-I so that it can accept and output both analog and digital.

As long as it maintains IR control capability and has 165MHz bandwidth, I don't see how it could be improved as an entry level product for this application.

Please do it!!!!!!


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Oliver Klohs

Guys,


why make it so difficult for TVOne ?


You can have a Lumagen HDP for a list price of a little over 1000$ and it does everything we need and then some, other options cost even less or with porches out of the picture some might even use their HT receivers and of course there is the HTPC many of us use.


So a TV One device with the current excellent blending performance and a DVI input that can work with 1080p input signals and 1:1 pixel mapping option would get most of us very far.


Don't let them waste their resources on gamma, multiple inputs and other stuff that is not easy to get right in itself and we might have a very cost-effective solution with DVI input and adequate bandwidth very soon AND we will be able to have scaling/gamma control and switching as per our individual needs.


Just my moneys worth and hopefully a practicable idea for an entry level solution.


Oliver


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/13178171
> 
> 
> Guys,
> 
> 
> why make it so difficult for TVOne ?
> 
> 
> You can have a Lumagen HDP for a list price of a little over 1000$ and it does everything we need and then some, other options cost even less or with porches out of the picture some might even use their HT receivers and of course there is the HTPC many of us use.
> 
> 
> So a TV One device with the current excellent blending performance and a DVI input that can work with 1080p input signals and 1:1 pixel mapping option would get most of us very far.
> 
> 
> Don't let them waste their resources on gamma, multiple inputs and other stuff that is not easy to get right in itself and we might have a very cost-effective solution with DVI input and adequate bandwidth very soon AND we will be able to have scaling/gamma control and switching as per our individual needs.
> 
> 
> Just my moneys worth and hopefully a practicable idea for an entry level solution.
> 
> 
> Oliver



I understand Oliver what you mean but they have the resources and I dont thing what we are asking for will increas the cost that much. Its mostly softwear based. And we all would like a single box solution. Sure the Lumagen scalers are world class but they dont blend..even though they said they might add it into the radiance that could be years from now. TV-One is comming out with something very soon. Adn we are all hoping it will have all the nessaary tool needed to do a proper CRT blend which a bit more involved than a digital blend.


Athanasios


----------



## Sisyphus

I was wondering if a single 1T-C2-100 or C2-260 support simultaneous output of a full blended image (the two different halves of the image) over 2 composite/svideo outputs.


The reason I ask is that near the end of this year, Microvision will be producing a laser based raster style scanning portable projector. This little projector operates like a crt. The lasers are only on when they need to be, and a scanning mirror "paints" the image. Ironically, this portable digital device will be the first to match CRT's native on/off, and hypothetically should have awesome ansi contrast as well.

http://gizmodo.com/341927/video-micr...ome-dudes-back 

http://www.microvision.com/pico_proj...owitworks.html 


Anyway, if the overall IQ is decent, I am planning on picking up at least 4 (or more) of these units for stacking or blending. This first gen unit is only capable of 480p at 15-20 lumens, which is why stacking or blending will be needed for a home theater application.


Anyway, sorry for getting off topic, but I am wondering if the TVone units can send say two different 480p signals over composite/svideo simultaneously. If not, and I decide to blend, I will just pick up 4 of the 1T-C2-100 or C2-260 (854x480p will need 4 blend areas for ~ 1708 x 960p).


----------



## Ericglo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/13178171
> 
> 
> Guys,
> 
> 
> why make it so difficult for TVOne ?
> 
> 
> Oliver



I understand what you are saying, but how many people here are going to spend a lot of money on their video system?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13179860
> 
> 
> Adn we are all hoping it will have all the nessaary tool needed to do a proper CRT blend which a bit more involved than a digital blend.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Not sure what you are saying about digital, but I haven't seen a good digital blend yet.


Rob,

Thanks for taking the time to participate here and for soliciting feedback. I think most people look at the overall investment in the video system and whether blending will be cost effective. I don't think people are looking at in the same light as me as I look at the cost of an 8" blend compared to a single 9" pj. I think Andy did a comparison on the raster size and light output for a blend and stack somewhere. I will have to find it somewhere but the 8" blend cost is potentially more effective for scope and 16x9. Keep up the good work and I will post suggestions as I think of them.


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13179860
> 
> 
> I understand Oliver what you mean but they have the resources and I dont thing what we are asking for will increas the cost that much. Its mostly softwear based. And we all would like a single box solution. Sure the Lumagen scalers are world class but they dont blend..even though they said they might add it into the radiance that could be years from now. TV-One is comming out with something very soon. Adn we are all hoping it will have all the nessaary tool needed to do a proper CRT blend which a bit more involved than a digital blend.
> 
> 
> Athanasios





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ericglo* /forum/post/13184897
> 
> 
> I understand what you are saying, but how many people here are going to spend a lot of money on their video system?



Two C2-260, a Lumagen HDP, a splitter and a full digital box from Moome will set you back around maybe 3.6k list and will give you very good gamma control, color calibration, all the resolutions you'll ever need and a switcher for a total of 8 input sources that can easily multiplied by adding other switchers to the Lumagen, especially for HDMI.


I would say that for a full featured blending solution this is not too bad, provided the C2-260 successor has added the features I mentioned in its next incarnation.


Of this 3.6k you can only save the money for the Lumagen as you still need the other stuff with two cards plus maybe other switchers. This still keeps the price at 2.4k which is not much less, especially not in relation to the total costs of a blending setup.


Leaving out the Lumagen or a similar device forces TV One to accomodate all the switching, gamma control, custom resolutions etc. and frankly what I have seen in the current product indicates that this might be a bit unreasonable to expect for the price you'd pay. Lumagen is in the scaler business for some time as is DVDO and they have a few years on TV one in that department and I would rather want to have TV One do what they do best IMO and look for scaling and the other things that come with signal processing for a dedicated scaler.


When you talk about most people here you have to remember that those that will go through the hassle of a blended setup are usually not those with absolutely no disposable income as they usually also would need a larger screen, larger room, a second projector etc. etc.. So I do not think that the additional 1k for the Lumagen makes my solution too expensive, not in relation to the other costs involved.


And last but not least: To implement the best possible scaling, gamma etc. options you need time and that is where we run into two problems:


1. the product gets released later

2. the time of the programmers working on this might be a bigger cost factor than you think.


So I hope I have made my point clear. I would not really have a problem with what you want from these cards if it does not delay them too much and does not increase price by more than a few $$ so let's just see what TV One comes up with. In the end they have got to decide what to do and after all they already have a wide range of products so they could also offer different solutions for different applications


Again, the decision is to be made by the people of TV One, they know better what they can and cannot do. I thinkt he only thing we all agree upon is that we want to be able the feed the units some kind of 1920 x 1080 signal and we want that be possible with a DVI or even better an HDMI connector which should still allow the card form factor to be continued without the need for a boxed solution.


Oliver


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Two C2-260, a Lumagen HDP, a splitter and a full digital box from Moome will set you back around maybe 3.6k list and will give you very good gamma control, color calibration, all the resolutions you'll ever need and a switcher for a total of 8 input sources that can easily multiplied by adding other switchers to the Lumagen, especially for HDMI.
> 
> 
> I would say that for a full featured blending solution this is not too bad, provided the C2-260 successor has added the features I mentioned in its next incarnation.
> 
> 
> Of this 3.6k you can only save the money for the Lumagen as you still need the other stuff with two cards plus maybe other switchers. This still keeps the price at 2.4k which is not much less, especially not in relation to the total costs of a blending setup.
> 
> 
> Leaving out the Lumagen or a similar device forces TV One to accomodate all the switching, gamma control, custom resolutions etc. and frankly what I have seen in the current product indicates that this might be a bit unreasonable to expect for the price you'd pay. Lumagen is in the scaler business for some time as is DVDO and they have a few years on TV one in that department and I would rather want to have TV One do what they do best IMO and look for scaling and the other things that come with signal processing for a dedicated scaler.



With out the global gamma control in the TV-one you would need 2 lumagens for each projector. You still need the zone gamma of the Tv-One, this is a must. But no two projectors no matter how simmilar they are will have the exact same gamma adjustment. So...you will no be able to use the lumagens gamma control at all untill each unit has the same gamma curve individualy, only then will you be able to use the single Lumagens gamma and after the gamma adjustments of the Tv_one you really wont need the lumagens thus elimintating the need for it. Splitter wont be needed if its a dual engine processor, and if they add hdpc compliance the moome hdcp stripper( if this is what you were reffering to) wont be needed either, however you will still need a hdmi or dvi card in the projector.


So I do not think these request will in the end cost more for the entire project of a blend.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Splitter wont be needed if its a dual engine processor, and if they add hdpc compliance the moome hdcp stripper( if this is what you were reffering to) wont be needed either, however you will still need a hdmi or dvi card in the projector.
> 
> 
> So I do not think these request will in the end cost more for the entire project of a blend.



I feel differently. TVOne's entry level 1T-C2-100 is a perfect platform to provide what is needed at minimum cost.

If it is HDCP compliant, then it cannot utilize its analog output which forces us to use some sort of "Moome" D/A converter. I know that many people want the D/A to be done as an input card in their projector(s), but I feel the D/A conversion should be done by whichever device has the best D/A converter. If the TVOne products can output 2048X2048, then it appears that their D/A converter is more capable than Moome's.


Also, the last thing I want to do is send the HDMI output from a BD player to a pre/pro to get the audio codec's, then to some scaler to pass-thru, then to the TVOne to pass-thru to the hopefully (both projectors!) HDCP compliant D/A converter in the projector(s). I have little to no faith in all those handshakes working properly.


If a DVI-I input is used on the TVone, it allows them to probably use the same chassis with the flexibility of accepting analog and digital inputs.


If they can easily provide a link between two 1T-C2-100's so that you only need one input - That's fine with me. If not, an active DVI splitter is cheap.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/13189607
> 
> 
> I feel differently. TVOne's entry level 1T-C2-100 is a perfect platform to provide what is needed at minimum cost.
> 
> If it is HDCP compliant, then it cannot utilize its analog output which forces us to use some sort of "Moome" D/A converter. I know that many people want the D/A to be done as an input card in their projector(s), but I feel the D/A conversion should be done by whichever device has the best D/A converter. If the TVOne products can output 2048X2048, then it appears that their D/A converter is more capable than Moome's.
> 
> 
> Also, the last thing I want to do is send the HDMI output from a BD player to a pre/pro to get the audio codec's, then to some scaler to pass-thru, then to the TVOne to pass-thru to the hopefully (both projectors!) HDCP compliant D/A converter in the projector(s). I have little to no faith in all those handshakes working properly.
> 
> 
> If a DVI-I input is used on the TVone, it allows them to probably use the same chassis with the flexibility of accepting analog and digital inputs.
> 
> 
> If they can easily provide a link between two 1T-C2-100's so that you only need one input - That's fine with me. If not, an active DVI splitter is cheap.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



for minimum cost I agree. But for simplicity, and cost compared to the DiVentix I think this new product they have comming will be our best option, as long as it is a dual engine scaler.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> If a DVI-I input is used on the TVone, it allows them to probably use the same chassis with the flexibility of accepting analog and digital inputs.
> 
> 
> If they can easily provide a link between two 1T-C2-100's so that you only need one input - That's fine with me. If not, an active DVI splitter is cheap.




Right now they do have a dvi input unit , the C2-2250, if they add all of that to the 1T-C2-100 it will in all essence be a C2-2250.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Actually the 1T-C2-100 is the wrong unit you ment the 1T-C2-250. the former is a down converter.


Athanasios


Link to their blend units

http://www.tvone.com/edgeblending.shtml


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Right now they do have a dvi input unit , the C2-2250, if they add all of that to the 1T-C2-100 it will in all essence be a C2-2250.



The C2-2250 is a totally different product series than the 1T-C2 series. Different chassis, different ins and outs on the back panel and a lcd display on front in addition to a higher price.

From a physical chassis change, all they would need to do is change the HD-15 connectors to DVD-I's on the 1T-C2-100 and we would have what we need.



> Quote:
> Actually the 1T-C2-100 is the wrong unit you ment the 1T-C2-250. the former is a down converter.



No - I meant to say 1T-C2-100, as that is what Bob, the TVOne engineer said in his previous post on this thread.


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13189292
> 
> 
> With out the global gamma control in the TV-one you would need 2 lumagens for each projector. You still need the zone gamma of the Tv-One, this is a must. But no two projectors no matter how simmilar they are will have the exact same gamma adjustment. So...you will no be able to use the lumagens gamma control at all untill each unit has the same gamma curve individualy, only then will you be able to use the single Lumagens gamma and after the gamma adjustments of the Tv_one you really wont need the lumagens thus elimintating the need for it. Splitter wont be needed if its a dual engine processor, and if they add hdpc compliance the moome hdcp stripper( if this is what you were reffering to) wont be needed either, however you will still need a hdmi or dvi card in the projector.
> 
> 
> So I do not think these request will in the end cost more for the entire project of a blend.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



I give you the gamma which I admit also HAS to be in the TV One, but on the other counts I disagree when I look at current prices. These are significantly higher priced solutions you are talking about, starting with HDCP compliance and the dual engine processor which of course is going to add costs to the TV One entry level solutions.


Oliver


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I give you the gamma which I admit also HAS to be in the TV One, but on the other counts I disagree when I look at current prices. These are significantly higher priced solutions you are talking about, starting with HDCP compliance and the dual engine processor which of course is going to add costs to the TV One entry level solutions.



Oliver - I agree 100% for an entry level (just do the blending!) product. In fact if TVOne made a C2-260 and swapped the breakout cable for one with DVI-I inputs and outputs and provided a 165MHz digital input capability, I'd be a happy camper!


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/13193407
> 
> 
> Oliver - I agree 100% for an entry level (just do the blending!) product. In fact if TVOne made a C2-260 and swapped the breakout cable for one with DVI-I inputs and outputs and provided a 165MHz digital input capability, I'd be a happy camper!
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



Yep, something along those lines, or maybe HDMI to be able to keep the cards (less bulky connectors than DVI). I'd only like to add 1:1 pixel mapping which is always nice to have but I see we think alike on this










Oliver


----------



## nashou66

Isnt 1:1 pixel maping really only needed for digital set? CRT's are not fixed pixel so that wont be needed, however i am sure its not a hard thing to add. Not many people will blend digitals for home theater. CRT is what Blending really benifits as we all know. *What would really be a break out feature that will put it ontop of the heap is a high enough pixel clock to be able to output 1080p or higher resolutions(computer) at scan rates equal to or over 72,75(pal) Hz.*



Athanasios


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13229357
> 
> 
> Isnt 1:1 pixel maping really only needed for digital set? CRT's are not fixed pixel so that wont be needed



This is not true. CRT's, especially with high resolving capability, do also profit from that. Also it is nice to have for displaying a PC desktop or to be able to play back from a PC used for HD playback.


The TVOne products have the capability for 72 and 75 Hz on the output side and I think for the higher end units 1920 x 1080 with 72/75 is already possible.


Oliver


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/13234110
> 
> 
> This is not true. CRT's, especially with high resolving capability, do also profit from that. Also it is nice to have for displaying a PC desktop or to be able to play back from a PC used for HD playback.
> 
> 
> The TVOne products have the capability for 72 and 75 Hz on the output side and I think for the higher end units 1920 x 1080 with 72/75 is already possible.
> 
> 
> Oliver



Thanks for the clarification Ollie!


Athanasios


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13234778
> 
> 
> Thanks for the clarification Ollie!
> 
> 
> Athanasios



You're welcome.


And I hope we soon will be able to discuss the finer aspects of our TV One blending solutions










Oliver


----------



## oliverg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/13234110
> 
> 
> This is not true. CRT's, especially with high resolving capability, do also profit from that. Also it is nice to have for displaying a PC desktop or to be able to play back from a PC used for HD playback.
> 
> 
> The TVOne products have the capability for 72 and 75 Hz on the output side and I think for the higher end units 1920 x 1080 with 72/75 is already possible.
> 
> 
> Oliver



Not being HDCP compliant .. they could probably do analog out (RGBHV/component) @ 1080P/72 but will they?


Most VPs will not output 1080p via analog - these boxes are effectively VPs - I'd be interested to know if TVOne have crippled their analog out. They do seem to follow HDCP rules with their equipment.


Would be good if the TVOne boxes did dual link HDMI and were HDCP compliant. Then we would need new Moome cards / HDFuries just to handle dual link & 1080P/72/75 via digital. It would be good to get analog 1080p/72/75 and not need to even have the digital input cards.


Less DACs in the video chain is a good thing










Did I mention I'm not looking forward to ICT causing us all even more issues??


----------



## nashou66

I think TV-one will go hdcp compliant with this new unit they are hinting at. they will do away with all the video manipulation. that is all the overlay and text rendering over video stuff. So they will be able to go all digital. I'd rather have digital all the way to the moome card, less cables. And I think Moomes card will handle 1080p72. Anyone els no for sure? Terry arn't you doing that? I think Mike Parker has run that from a HTPC to a moome as well.


Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oliverg* /forum/post/13244457
> 
> 
> Most VPs will not output 1080p via analog - these boxes are effectively VPs - I'd be interested to know if TVOne have crippled their analog out. They do seem to follow HDCP rules with their equipment.



You sure? Every VP I know of is 1080p capable over rgbhv


EDIT- sorry mate, re read what you wrote, I believe you were referring to 1080p at 72/75hz, now I understand


----------



## oliverg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13252501
> 
> 
> I think TV-one will go hdcp compliant with this new unit they are hinting at. they will do away with all the video manipulation. that is all the overlay and text rendering over video stuff. So they will be able to go all digital. I'd rather have digital all the way to the moome card, less cables. And I think Moomes card will handle 1080p72. Anyone els no for sure? Terry arn't you doing that? I think Mike Parker has run that from a HTPC to a moome as well.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



All digital input devices (HDFury, Moome etc) are all limited by the HDMI standard - 165Mhz. You can get very very close to 1080p/72 by changing s few values around like Gino has - porches etc .. The only way you can get analog 1080p/72/75 is via a HTPC - even now, this ability is being switched off via drivers on some cards and when ICT arrives..










Gino - no, I mean 1080P via analog - my C2, my CalibreHD and my VP50 - none allowed 1080p via analog. Yes they are capable, but no manufacturer allows this - otherwise they kiss their HDCP keys goodbye










Any HDCP enabled source will trigger the VP to disable the analog outputs. This is part of manufacturers adhering to the HDCP standard. Technically, they could be downscaled but all the VPs I know of turn off all analog outputs..


Calibre: (seatch on analog)
http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertain...bre-vantage-hd 


VP50 (Anchor Bay)
http://www.anchorbaytech.com/support/faq/vp50.php 


"The iScan VP50 does process an HDCP-encrypted signal and output the signal on the HDMI output with the HDCP encryption intact. If the input signal is HDCP-encrypted then the analog outputs of the iScan VP50 must be turned off for legal constraints."


----------



## welwynnick

VPs will output any video over HDMI if HDCP is not enabled on the HDMI input. Question is, when does that happen?


Nick


----------



## bbfarmht

Ok there is a problem with all this. My wife is not going to like me saying, "Well Hun' the kids aren't going to college, all of the money is going into the home theater!!!" God I hope I live through telling her that and she doesn't find out you guys were the ones to give me these ideas.


----------



## overclkr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bbfarmht* /forum/post/13274306
> 
> 
> Ok there is a problem with all this. My wife is not going to like me saying, "Well Hun' the kids aren't going to college, all of the money is going into the home theater!!!" God I hope I live through telling her that and she doesn't find out you guys were the ones to give me these ideas.










LOL.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/13161417
> 
> 
> All I can say is watch this space ... soon... nod nod wink wink
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Rob



Rob, how soon before we here anything new? I am hoping since you haven't posted anything you guys are busy working on something special!


Athansios


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13347375
> 
> 
> Rob, how soon before we here anything new? I am hoping since you haven't posted anything you guys are busy working on something special!
> 
> 
> Athansios



I second that - the projectors are already here, now I am waiting for the blending solution that fits my needs










Oliver


----------



## donaldk

TVOne did anounce its first HDCP compliant over DVI processor, recently, so it should be migratable to other C2 products. Or am I mixing up press releases again;-).


----------



## donaldk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13347375
> 
> 
> Rob, how soon before we here anything new? I am hoping since you haven't posted anything you guys are busy working on something special!
> 
> 
> Athansios



I asked at ISE2007, and they said the same thing then, so... The 7200 with HD-SDI (the original 7200 being largely analog I/O) should provide all of this for commercial applications involving bulbprojectors, but nothing yet for legacy CRTs.


----------



## TVOneEngineer

Hi All,


Yep you are correct, we have been working hard ! On the latest firmware updates, which should be out in the next 2 weeks... and NAB is comming ! we shall be there .. with new the new products. Ill give you all the new product lineup just as soon as im allowed to 


As for HDCP we will also have to maintain the HDCP rules so HDCP in then only HDCP out, there would be no downscaling to non HDCP outputs allowed.


DonaldK - I think that announcement was for the new DVI routing switcher, not the scaler.


Rob


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/13234110
> 
> 
> This is not true. CRT's, especially with high resolving capability, do also profit from that. Also it is nice to have for displaying a PC desktop or to be able to play back from a PC used for HD playback.
> 
> 
> The TVOne products have the capability for 72 and 75 Hz on the output side and I think for the higher end units 1920 x 1080 with 72/75 is already possible.
> 
> 
> Oliver



Hi Oliver,


All of the units we have are capable of outputting 1080P 72/75, however they get sub sampled because of the scaler bandwidth limit :-( On all the 1T-C2, 1K,2K,7K products we use a DAC capable of a 240Mhz pixel clock.


Regards

Rob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/13424949
> 
> 
> Hi Oliver,
> 
> 
> All of the units we have are capable of outputting 1080P 72/75, however they get sub sampled because of the scaler bandwidth limit :-( On all the 1T-C2, 1K,2K,7K products we use a DAC capable of a 240Mhz pixel clock.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob



Hi Rob can you explain what sub sampling is and what it means for the quality of the original signal? Will it reduce its resolution?


Athanasios


----------



## TVOneEngineer

It will cause the image to be softened slightly becasue we are only sampling at 108Mhz rather than the 165Mhz rate that this signal would need.


Regards

Rob


----------



## nashou66

Ahhh thanks, Hopefully any new units will have a higher sample rate










Athanasios


----------



## donaldk

A TVOne advertorial/compensation editorial space from the InAvate Digital email in today's inbox.

http://www.inavateonthenet.net/artic...rticleID=14370 


The superficial treatment of the subject we generally see from such copywritten material in ad supported publications, unfortunately.


Summary: Edgeblending is seeing wider use, it should be used more often and we have just the boxes for you to buy (666).


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/13424949
> 
> 
> Hi Oliver,
> 
> 
> All of the units we have are capable of outputting 1080P 72/75, however they get sub sampled because of the scaler bandwidth limit :-( On all the 1T-C2, 1K,2K,7K products we use a DAC capable of a 240Mhz pixel clock.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob




Rob,


thanks for the clarification.


The subsampling was not looking soooo hot to me and I will wait for new product that does not need to do subsampling for the resolutions I want to use (up to 1080p 60).


Looking forward to NAB










Regards


Oliver


----------



## nashou66

I agree Oliver once they work out the details to get full use of that 240mhz chip and allow the full 166mhz pixel clock rate we'll be ready to go !!!!


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I agree Oliver once they work out the details to get full use of that 240mhz chip and allow the full 166mhz pixel clock rate we'll be ready to go !!!!



Not sure if my memory is still working, but as I remember it, Nyquist's Sampling Theorem requires sampling at twice the highest frequency to be used. If this is correct, then we would need a 330 MHz chip to be able to handle a 165MHZ rate.


Bob


----------



## nashou66

TV One said:


> Quote:
> products we use a DAC capable of a 240Mhz pixel clock.



Sorry I misstated what the TVONE engineer said he said his chip is capable of a 240 pixel clock, you probably thought i meant 240 bandwidth. My Bad.


Athanasios


----------



## MikeEby

Rob,

I have a couple of questions about the C2-260 cards. I would be using 2 cards for blending. What are the bandwidth limitations on the input and output? Can it handle [email protected] or 24 Hz input? Then output and zoom with a blend area each half of the image to [email protected] or even better 96Hz without sub sampling and 1:1 pixel mapping and retain a pixle perfect desktop? I would like to avoid 3:2 pulldown this is why I would be using 48Hz or 24Hz on the input side.


I have looked at your documentation and it looks like it would be might doable, with the right software controlling the cards. It looks like you guys (TVOne) have done great job of documenting the control protocol for this type of applications and I feel I could write the software if the hardware can handle the rest. I would also have to write code for adjusting the aspect ratio for 16:9 2:35 and other AR's.



Below are a couple of block diagrams I posted in another thread a while back do you think these would work? Note the blending PC resource requirements are very low, it is used only as a power supply and a control unit for the C2-260s. The cards also appear to have an ethernet port but I cannot find much out about them. Note the cards could be installed in the HTPC.











Thanks!

Mike


----------



## nashou66

Mike, glad to see your still thinking about the blend! Why run 48hz to the cards? I am sure they will take the 24hz right from the source.


Athanasios


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13506205
> 
> 
> Mike, glad to see your still thinking about the blend! Why run 48hz to the cards? I am sure they will take the 24hz right from the source.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



True... If they could that would be great, for PS3 or stand alone BR players I will edit my question.


Mike


----------



## MadMrH

I will be running the NEW 180 firmware with my 7200 TVONE unit in two weeks time, Cant wait to try it out







.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/13572847
> 
> 
> I will be running the NEW 180 firmware with my 7200 TVONE unit in two weeks time, Cant wait to try it out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



What is the 180 firmwear? 180mhz clock?


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH

HI, the 180 firmware is the current 7200 firmware (not 180Mhz)


In a few weeks Firmware 184 (ish) will be released and has some big leaps forward.


OFFICIAL NEWS FLASH



First of all....... "we are still testing the new release which will be something like 184 for all products. It will have the Crop, and pixel accurate zoom and shrink features as well as the ability to save multiple configurations and recall them plus a few other tweaks!"

But the BEST NEWS is here............


"We have also been getting the new products ready for the NAB show and we had successful testing with HDCP late last week and 1080P60 is working well, should also be able to do 1080P72 with reduced blanking and no sub sampling. These hardware improvements are on the 2000A series that will be previewed at NAB next week. Another nice couple of features of the C2-2000A is the SDI has been updated to now give HDSDI, there will be a version with HD-SDI in and Out coming later in the year, and we have now added our own version of temporal interpolation - which reduces possibility of Jaggies for very fast panning interlaced sources. *In summary the limits we had have now gone*"

























These NEW UNITS will be with me for testing - So keep watching







.


----------



## nashou66

Awesome Andy I have been waiting along time for this and Now i have two Marquees ready to go!!!!.


Great news!!!!


Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS

Andy - so when will we see announcement and specs for the new products? Is it only the 2000 series or will the improvements be seen on the 7000 series? Indicative costs?


----------



## antorsae

Do you need one or two of those units?


----------



## damon

One of the 7200 series is all that is required from what I understand.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *damon* /forum/post/13598776
> 
> 
> One of the 7200 series is all that is required from what I understand.



Damon , we are talking about the new units they may be releasing soon, June from what I was told from TV-One. they call it the C2-2000A unless they are using that as a general term for the C2-2000 series. From what I understand they are making a new hardware unit along with improving the firmware on their existing units to be able to do what Andy stated in his above post.


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH

The idea as I understand is for the new hardware/firmware to filter through some of the ranges and will include the 7200 series.


The Firmware side is easy to create for the entire range as the CORE of the unit is the same main brain/memory system the Corio2.


The hardware of course needs a physical change - As many people have seen the single channel units suit many, I prefered the TWO channel unit from the start - My reason for this was that it was a one box solution and at the time seemed the best option, there was a lack of people I knew with the unit and so a large leap of faith for me.


I would appear that TWO SINGLE units would have worked - again it depends on what inputs you require.


I think it fair that if the TVONE units were DVI/HDMI inputs that are HDCP compliant then the need for HD SDI within the home cinema field is no longer required.


I think about two-four weeks for new product details.


They have units built and under test - They are busy with the show at the mo so I have not bothered them. I know early test units were built mid-end of last year, if its the same ones I was teased about by them !!!!


I expect test units to be with me, I wont trouble TVONE for a time frame until after the show and my return from current projection projects.


----------



## MadMrH

7200 firmware 185 now available.


I hope to be running this later this week.


Currently I use "Macros" to swop between different ratio of films.


NOW in the 185 firmware there are TEN presets available.


This should mean its easier to create and edit presets.


Will report back once ive updated the 7200 and had a play







.


----------



## damon

I am at NAB & will drop in on the TVOne booth.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *damon* /forum/post/13655559
> 
> 
> I am at NAB & will drop in on the TVOne booth.



Awesome!!!! Find out about the new hardware!!!!!


Athanasios


----------



## damon

Had a short blending demo.

Their control software really looks impressive!!


The Display in the broad day light of a convention floor was not up to CRT standards.


sounded has if they still had work to do on seprate RGB Gamma control but it was in the works.


Unit I saw was a 7310.


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *damon* /forum/post/13659477
> 
> 
> Had a short blending demo.
> 
> Their control software really looks impressive!!
> 
> 
> The Display in the broad day light of a convention floor was not up to CRT standards.
> 
> 
> sounded has if they still had work to do on seprate RGB Gamma control but it was in the works.
> 
> 
> Unit I saw was a 7310.



Damon,

How was the 7310 being feed HDMI, DVI & Analog? And what type of source Blu-ray?


Thanks!

Mike


----------



## damon

I believe they said they were using HDMI.


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *damon* /forum/post/13659477
> 
> 
> Had a short blending demo.
> 
> Their control software really looks impressive!!



The million$ question is, how does it compare to the DVX?


----------



## Boilermaker

While this is good that there is advancements in firmware and it looks like they have solved the limited bandwidth issue, I was assuming that there was to also be a new platform for a new product line. Did I miss something?


----------



## nashou66

So far no word on the "new line" it might just be the addition of HD-SDI to all units. Maybe? but the hdcp and improved bandwidth are enough for me to get either the C2-7000 series or two C2-2250's they have a bunch of those in their B stock supply.


Hopefully we'll hear from TVONE_Engineer soon on everything.


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13671524
> 
> 
> So far no word on the "new line" it might just be the addition of HD-SDI to all units.



My post above #151 mentions the NEW units - This info was given to me by TVONE and asked that I put it on here as they are very busy with the show.


I also believe that there is a HIGH chance that the units from NAB will be working their way here







after the show.


----------



## nashou66

So the 2000A is new model not an upgraded 2000 series?


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH

Difficult question!


I believe that the 2000A is a new unit as it has new bandwidth.


As far as I know there is not a C2-2000 unit in the current range, So I believe that the C2-2000A is a new model.


TVONE will I am sure post full details after the show.


----------



## nashou66

I wonder if its a 2 engine unit or single. Hmm? But even the older models will seem to be able to do 1080p60 and maybe 72 with some front and back porch tweeking, right?


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH

Its a single engine unit.


I would speculate that this newer hardware will filter into the 2 engine units - BUT I would also guess that the single engine units sell far more.


(single engine = single channel scaler, Just in case the next question from someone is when is a twin turbo, nitro, blown version available







)


I am now running v185 firmware in my C2-7200.


The new preset option is excellent and already in use.


----------



## nashou66

Have you treid running the higher scan rates? 60 and 72 with 1080p?


Athanasios


----------



## jalittam

That blend area; is it better to use small (near 10%) or wide (near 20%)?

Or no differences on that (10-20%) area?

Are these absolute 10% min. and 20% max. what is mentioned in C2-260 manual?


----------



## nashou66

The beuty of the TV one units is you can use what ever % you want, it all depends on your needs.


Athanasios


----------



## jalittam

From manual:

"If your projectors are already fixed into position, chek that there is around 10% to 20% overlap, or edgeblending will not be possible."


...not be possible.


Maybe they use wrong term in that point...


Thanks Athanasios! That is what I have in my mind...


----------



## Gino AUS

10% is ideal as this means maximum raster usage, however you will find it more difficult to blend seamlessly with less overlap. 20% is easier but then you are reducing effective raster usage for the active picture


----------



## Boilermaker

I am starting to get excited! I finished retubing the PL's in my first XGLC last weekend and have finished astig and scheimflug. The second set of new tubes should arrive this Thursday which gives me next weekend to set it up with the Blue and Red reversed. I was hopingto do grayscale with the BlueRay test disc, but don't have my BlurRay yet.


I waited for ABT to correct their problem with HD-SDI before I ordered the player I wanted from JVB. That was a mistake as they say there is a huge shortage of most players and wont expect anymore for a few more weeks!


Doesn't matter, as TVOne probably won't have their new scaler lineup until then anyway.


My intention is to run [email protected] out of the VP50Pro and set the output of TVOne at [email protected] I used 1080P to set up my first projector and got a pleasant surprise to see how much better things are when you use the whole raster height. I had visible scan lines at all 4 corners watching 1080P from 7 ft. 1226 should be real sweet.


I've got so antsy that I just ordered a pair of Moome's new high bandwidth D/A converters with line drivers and gamma adjustment just to make sure everything is AOK.


If TVOne doesn't pull through for me - You will see a grown man cry!!!


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/13740926
> 
> 
> I am starting to get excited! I finished retubing the PL's in my first XGLC last weekend and have finished astig and scheimflug. The second set of new tubes should arrive this Thursday which gives me next weekend to set it up with the Blue and Red reversed. I was hopingto do grayscale with the BlueRay test disc, but don't have my BlurRay yet.
> 
> 
> I waited for ABT to correct their problem with HD-SDI before I ordered the player I wanted from JVB. That was a mistake as they say there is a huge shortage of most players and wont expect anymore for a few more weeks!
> 
> 
> Doesn't matter, as TVOne probably won't have their new scaler lineup until then anyway.
> 
> 
> My intention is to run [email protected] out of the VP50Pro and set the output of TVOne at [email protected] I used 1080P to set up my first projector and got a pleasant surprise to see how much better things are when you use the whole raster height. I had visible scan lines at all 4 corners watching 1080P from 7 ft. 1226 should be real sweet.
> 
> 
> I've got so antsy that I just ordered a pair of Moome's new high bandwidth D/A converters with line drivers and gamma adjustment just to make sure everything is AOK.
> 
> 
> If TVOne doesn't pull through for me - You will see a grown man cry!!!




Sounds like a sweet setup, I don't really follow the [email protected] Could you explain?


Mike


----------



## nashou66

I am waiting as well and hope its what they say it is all out to be, I was going to look for the cheap way out but got a nice rate for a long period on one of my credit cards so looks like that is what i will use to purchase one of their units or two depending on the specs of the new units.


You wont have to run the 817 you can do the full 1080 as the TV-0ne zooms the image to the active are you want to use. this way you can use your original VP at a constant setting for all material and use the tv-one for different ratios, not sure if this is how others do it, I think now most use the VP for aspect and keep one output from the blender. But if you get the dual scaler unit you wont need the other VP. The C2-7000 series will do it all, however if you go with two separate units you might want a VP as I am not sure how the individual units would transfer the video signal to the other unit...I think it they do it but not sure how, I didn't have enough time to test the C2-2250 daisy chained the the C2-7200?


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Sounds like a sweet setup, I don't really follow the [email protected] Could you explain?



Sure - The ???? is somewhere around 1200 or so as it is whatever is left after blending about 10%.

The 1226 is 1-1/2 times the 817 lines that are actually used in a 2.35 AR that produces a picture in the 1080 lines available. The remaining lines are wasted producing black.

I chose 1-1/2 times as I think only 817 lines on the full raster usage will have scan lines visible from the next county. 1-1/2 should be a very easy algorythm to scale which should produce an excellent picture but yet still have a video signal below 100MHz so that I wont run out of bandwidth.

This also allows me to run 72Hz. refresh to eliminate the 3/2 pulldown. Obviously this would be for BlueRay movies at 24fps.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> You wont have to run the 817 you can do the full 1080 as the TV-0ne zooms the image to the active are you want to use. this way you can use your original VP at a constant setting for all material and use the tv-one for different ratios, not sure if this is how others do it, I think now most use the VP for aspect and keep one output from the blender. But if you get the dual scaler unit you wont need the other VP. The C2-7000 series will do it all, however if you go with two separate units you might want a VP as I am not sure how the individual units would transfer the video signal to the other unit...I think it they do it but not sure how, I didn't have enough time to test the C2-2250 daisy chained the the C2-7200?



I agree - I already have the VP50Pro with HD-SDI, and therefore hope to find a new product from TVOne that has a digital in and out and just does scaling, frame rate changes and blending. Hopefully this will save me money.

I chose the oddball 1226 as it should produce a smoother picture than 1080. 1080 from 817 is probably much harder to do than 1226 from 817. I think of the analogy to first seeing a decent scaler create 720P out of 480I from a DVD. It is a 1:1-1/2 ratio and was very successful in making a nice picture - much more so than other ratios close to it.

1440X960 is also successful as it is a 2:1 ratio. I prefer DVD's scaled to 1440X960 over scaling them to 1080P. Others may disagree.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Boilermaker

Mike - If I was lucky enough to have a pair of Mike Parker's 9" 'Quee's with extended bandwidth, I'd try ????X1634 which is just doubling the 817. Maybe Gino could try that if he gets one of the TVOne's that can do it?


----------



## Boilermaker

BTW - I think the NAB is over, so shouldn't our TVOne engineer give us at least a little sneak preview!?!?


----------



## nashou66

Just for those who want to get a jump on how to set up the blend. This is the TV-one quick set up guide:

Edge blend set up Guide 


Athanasios


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/13741298
> 
> 
> BTW - I think the NAB is over, so shouldn't our TVOne engineer give us at least a little sneak preview!?!?



I second that. Do we even know how much that new single channel unit will cost MSRP ?


Oliver


----------



## Briands

Hey, they have 3 7200 units on their Bstock page... wow... I thought these were supposed to be a little more affordable than this...


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Briands* /forum/post/13747197
> 
> 
> Hey, they have 3 7200 units on their Bstock page... wow... I thought these were supposed to be a little more affordable than this...



Thats not really too bad considering the DiVentix is 10,000 to 13,000.


And the C2-2250 are under 1500 so for 3,000 plus the cost od a dvi slitter you have a blend.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't all of the current production models suffer from limited bandwidth issues that the new model(s) will cure?


----------



## damon

Boilermaker,


Aren't you better off price wise ( & in this case time wise too!) sending a Blu Ray player to JVB?


The 7310 has a pretty hefty msrp. according to the lit. I got at NAB


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Correct me if I am wrong, but don't all of the current production models suffer from limited bandwidth issues that the new model(s) will cure?



this is not to clear but.......



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/13424949
> 
> 
> Hi Oliver,
> 
> 
> All of the units we have are capable of outputting 1080P 72/75, however they get sub sampled because of the scaler bandwidth limit :-( On all the 1T-C2, 1K,2K,7K products we use a DAC capable of a 240Mhz pixel clock.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob



They have a dac capable of 240mhz pixel clock and I think the new software upgrades to the corio line will allow 1080p/60 and 1080p/72/75 with some timeing tweek's and with out being subsampled. At least that is what I understand


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/13747846
> 
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong, but don't all of the current production models suffer from limited bandwidth issues that the new model(s) will cure?



Thats the idea







.


Currently I run 1080p24 into the TVONE - And I dont see any reason not to.


I do understand that for games machines this is currently an issue.


Also some HD/Blu players dont "Force" 1080p24 so that could also be an issue - although in a few weeks (Middle of may) there will be a new "gismo" that should "Force" 1080p24 from ANY device and that includes PS3 - I will testing this unit and will report back how good it is . This "Gismo" is NOT a TVONE product.


I hope that most would agree that 1080p24 direct from the disc is an excellent starting point? - Maybe start a new thread if people want to chat about that.


Last few weeks I have been completing a large AV project, Im back now so should be able to give more time to this thread.


Oh! and just maybe I will have a new toy here to play with


----------



## damon

I filled out the entry form at the TVOne NAB exhibit & was notified today that I had won 10% off.


1st) I imagine everyone that entered came up a winner

2nd) This appears to be off msrp pricing direct from TVOne


The good news is they seem to be quite happy to apply this to anyone with whom I share my entry info.


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13748652
> 
> 
> They have a dac capable of 240mhz pixel clock and I think the new software upgrades to the corio line will allow 1080p/60 and 1080p/72/75 with some timeing tweek's and with out being subsampled. At least that is what I understand



As stated above the input path on the current units is limited to 108MHz and in the unit I tested (C2-260) there was also a limitation with regard to how many horizontal pixels could be processed (1280).


If there wasn't a limitation on the number of horizontal pixels you could do things like 1920 x 810 with 48 Hz for a scope image, but I was not able to do that.


Oliver


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Aren't you better off price wise ( & in this case time wise too!) sending a Blu Ray player to JVB?



I'm looking into that right now, but am not finding prices that I like on the model I want.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I hope that most would agree that 1080p24 direct from the disc is an excellent starting point? - Maybe start a new thread if people want to chat about that.



I agree 100%! The only thing that is better than the best de-interlacer is not have to de-interlace at all. Nothing like starting with a pure progressive signal to begin with.


That new gizmo sounds real interesting. I intend on using HD-SDI, so am I assuming that the gizmo hooks up to the HDMI output - Is this correct?

My intention was to use the HDMI for the new audio codecs exclusively, and pick up the video from HD-SDI.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

Oliver I agree with your comment,


> Quote:
> As stated above the input path on the current units is limited to 108MHz



But this is where TV-one has been unclear, i recieved an email, and it seems like they said it here also, that with new firmware they can change the 108Mhz sub sampling rate to something higher to fully utilize the 240Mhz DAC in their legacy units Aslo it is not clear but I think they may offer to upgrade those legacy units with the new hardware/chip upgrade . I wish Rob would comment on this, as i could be 100% wrong but i hope I am not










Athanasios


----------



## Briands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/13749006
> 
> 
> Thats the idea
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Currently I run 1080p24 into the TVONE - And I dont see any reason not to.
> 
> 
> I do understand that for games machines this is currently an issue.
> 
> 
> Also some HD/Blu players dont "Force" 1080p24 so that could also be an issue - although in a few weeks (Middle of may) there will be a new "gismo" that should "Force" 1080p24 from ANY device and that includes PS3 - I will testing this unit and will report back how good it is . This "Gismo" is NOT a TVONE product.
> 
> 
> I hope that most would agree that 1080p24 direct from the disc is an excellent starting point? - Maybe start a new thread if people want to chat about that.
> 
> 
> Last few weeks I have been completing a large AV project, Im back now so should be able to give more time to this thread.
> 
> 
> Oh! and just maybe I will have a new toy here to play with



Don't forget that occasionally someone may want to watch an HD Video which may be 1080i60...


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/13752332
> 
> 
> As stated above the input path on the current units is limited to 108MHz and in the unit I tested (C2-260) there was also a limitation with regard to how many horizontal pixels could be processed (1280).
> 
> 
> If there wasn't a limitation on the number of horizontal pixels you could do things like 1920 x 810 with 48 Hz for a scope image, but I was not able to do that.
> 
> 
> Oliver




Has anyone ever put a 1 on 1 off pattern on one of these units to see how well they actually resolve 1080p other than Oliver? To me this is key, without 1 to 1 pixel mapping there is no advantage to a blend, am I wrong about this?


Mike


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MikeEby* /forum/post/13765762
> 
> 
> Has anyone ever put a 1 on 1 off pattern on one of these units to see how well they actually resolve 1080p other than Oliver? To me this is key, without 1 to 1 pixel mapping there is no advantage to a blend, am I wrong about this?
> 
> 
> Mike



You are wrong










Why would that be the case? There are numerous advantages to a blend, namely full raster usage on a CIH cinemascope screen and complete resolvability. Think about it... 1080 lines with less bandwidth, and then you are stretching your raster much taller, makes it a piece of cake to get scanlines.


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/13767162
> 
> 
> You are wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would that be the case? There are numerous advantages to a blend, namely full raster usage on a CIH cinemascope screen and complete resolvability. Think about it... 1080 lines with less bandwidth, and then you are stretching your raster much taller, makes it a piece of cake to get scanlines.



Oh yes I agree about the bandwidth, but if the scaler cannot reproduce 1920 wide pixels across both projectors including blend zone as Oliver noted then you are losing some or most of the advantages of blending.


You still have the advantage of brightness and dynamic range but the scaler/blender is limiting the full horizontal resolution of Blu-ray/HD-DVD.


I would just like to see a 1:1 pattern like this one that Athanasios posted a while back in a Mike Parker thread.











Mike


----------



## Oliver Klohs

I would also like to see a pattern like this.


I was not able to generate this in my tests with a desktop of 1920 or more pixels. While there are other advantages to blending I think that not too many of us like to take 3 steps forward and 2 backwards with regard to resolution, I know I don't.


Oliver


----------



## nashou66

You guys just dont get what Gino said, key words here "FULL RASTER HIEGHT AND USE". the shots that show the full on/off patterns are using less raster than a blend will so of course it will resolve the one on one off patterns and with less bandwidth being used because now that entire 1920x1080 is being spread over two Projectors the 1080 will remain but instead of only being resolved in the short squished raster we all use now for 16x9 or 2.40:1 it gets expanded verticly to use the entire face of the tube which is easier for the projector to resolve. its easier to show more detail over a larger surface than a smaller one, thats what blending does, also by using the full tube and putting the projectors closer to the screen you get a hugh jump in Foot lamberts.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I was not able to generate this in my tests with a desktop of 1920 or more pixels.



Hopefully I can help clear this up for you.

The reason you could not generate the results you wanted was because the A/D converter used in the model 260 you tried samples the analog video signal at too low a rate. In order to reconstruct any analog signal, the sampling frequency has to be at least twice the frequency of the video signal. As a result, you were unable to reconstruct the waveform. That is why the TVOne engineer stated that it is "sub-sampled". The new models reportedly have increased sampling frequency so that this no longer occurs.

From the standpoint of showing the pixel to pixel pattern, after proper blending, the pattern will always be considerably sharper than with just one projector. This is because each projector "sees" only 1/2 of the video frequency (less the blend percentage) that it would if there was only one projector.

As has been discussed many times in different threads, EVERY crt projector has its video frequency rolling off at the high frequencies of 1080P. Some are just worse than others. That is why the work that Mike Parker is doing is so imortant.

Hope this helps.


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Briands* /forum/post/13756376
> 
> 
> Don't forget that occasionally someone may want to watch an HD Video which may be 1080i60...



Hi,


1080i60 is fine direct into the TVONE units - I dont mention this as it is already possible.


A 1080p signal currently causes bandwidth issues BUT 1080p24 is within the available bandwidth and native to the disc - So I have tended to mention about that.


----------



## MikeEby

I understand the weakness is not in the projectors the bandwidth requirements are very modest on a blend, you guys are taking for granted the scaler does a perfect job of mapping pixels. I think this is what Oliver is saying he did not see. I hope the new firmware resolves this issue and I am proven wrong, all it will take is a 1:1 pattern from the output to make me happy.










I really don't know the weakness is in the A/D because I was looking at the photo of the card and noted the card has on it an AD9880-150 it's the chip near the 40 pin connector. See image below and link to the datasheet. This is quoting directly from the datasheet:

_The ultrawide bandwidth inputs of the AD9880 (330 MHz) can track the input signal continuously as it moves from one pixel level to the next, and digitizes the pixel during a long, flat pixel time._


A/D conversions are done on digital monitors & projectors all the time with very good results and this is the primary application for this chip. The device has on it a few other goodies I won't go into here.











Mike


----------



## Gino AUS

The DVX can do 1:1 no problems, so there is no step backwards in terms of resolution, only forwards actually







Seems the new TVOne's have address any previous issues so blend away!


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/13775770
> 
> 
> The DVX can do 1:1 no problems, so there is no step backwards in terms of resolution, only forwards actually
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems the new TVOne's have address any previous issues so blend away!



I bet it can, perhaps I could sell my Z06 and get one, this $4.25 a gallon is killing me.











Mike


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> All of the units we have are capable of outputting 1080P 72/75, however they get sub sampled because of the scaler bandwidth limit :-( On all the 1T-C2, 1K,2K,7K products we use a DAC capable of a 240Mhz pixel clock.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob




He has stated that the new models will not have this issue, so I am anxiously awaiting any word on their new product(s).


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MikeEby* /forum/post/13775883
> 
> 
> I bet it can, perhaps I could sell my Z06 and get one, this $4.25 a gallon is killing me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike



I got 50 more mile per tank with my EVO VIII by not pounding it from every stop, so much so an old lady beeped as she passed my with her finger out the window










It was really funny.


Athanasios


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/13770764
> 
> 
> Hopefully I can help clear this up for you.
> 
> The reason you could not generate the results you wanted was because the A/D converter used in the model 260 you tried samples the analog video signal at too low a rate. In order to reconstruct any analog signal, the sampling frequency has to be at least twice the frequency of the video signal. As a result, you were unable to reconstruct the waveform. That is why the TVOne engineer stated that it is "sub-sampled". The new models reportedly have increased sampling frequency so that this no longer occurs.
> 
> From the standpoint of showing the pixel to pixel pattern, after proper blending, the pattern will always be considerably sharper than with just one projector. This is because each projector "sees" only 1/2 of the video frequency (less the blend percentage) that it would if there was only one projector.
> 
> As has been discussed many times in different threads, EVERY crt projector has its video frequency rolling off at the high frequencies of 1080P. Some are just worse than others. That is why the work that Mike Parker is doing is so imortant.
> 
> Hope this helps.



You're preaching to the choir here, I was just pointing the limitation on the input side to Athanasios as he seems to think that a new software can magically overcome these limitations. I cannot see how that would be the case.


Oliver


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13770093
> 
> 
> You guys just dont get what Gino said, key words here "FULL RASTER HIEGHT AND USE". the shots that show the full on/off patterns are using less raster than a blend will so of course it will resolve the one on one off patterns



I give up. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you: I could not input more than 1280 horizontal pixels for the two projectors combined - with that limitation it is impossible to resolve that pattern and due to the additional conversion stages the 1280 x 1024 did not look that good either. If the blend works properly of course the advantages in resolution and clarity are huge provided you get a grip on the alignment of the blend zone and this is why we are here but when horizontal resolution is truncated by one third things do not work out well.


I can tell you that in the end 1280 x 1024 with analog input and additional D/A A/D conversion on two projectors looked siginificantly worse than one projector with full 1920 x 1080 and only the D/a conversion at the end of the video chain.


So I will be very happy when somebody tries this pattern with the new C2-2000 with digital input and it works out fine but I want to see a screenshot first and then I buy it, not the other way around. Having to set everything up and then not having a usable solution is pretty frustrating and I do not need to repeat that experience multiple times, this time somebody else may try it










Again: I want this to work but let's not forget that certain requirements have to be met for blending to be the big step forward in quality that it can be.


Oliver


----------



## Boilermaker

It is REALLY time for the TVOne engineer to give us some input as to what is coming!

Rob - Are you listening!?


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> I give up. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you: I could not input more than 1280 horizontal pixels for the two projectors combined - with that limitation it is impossible to resolve that pattern and due to the additional conversion stages the 1280 x 1024 did not look that good either.



Ok , Ok ,Ok, I believe you







you tried the 260 card correct? it must be with the analog

units only. I too hope the new unit is everything Rob hints at, i am spending the money i saved up !!!!


Athanasios


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13777812
> 
> 
> Ok , Ok ,Ok, I believe you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you tried the 260 card correct? it must be with the analog
> 
> units only. I too hope the new unit is everything Rob hints at, i am spending the money i saved up !!!!
> 
> 
> Athanasios



You made my day







Not only by believing me, but also by wanting to spend the money and trying the new card - you post that pattern and I buy them too







And yes, I only tested the C2-260 cards, the devices with digital inputs might behave different.


Oliver


----------



## nashou66

guys tell me what you think of this,

http://blog.digitalcontentproducer.c...-sdi-switcher/ 


I was reading it and it came to me that the C2-2000A is just going to be the current C2-2000 series with the added bandwidth. Maybe its easy for them to modify the single scaler engine models than the C2-7000 series which may require an entire new design?


i wish Rob would come back form where ever he is!!!!











Athanasios


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13779674
> 
> 
> guys tell me what you think of this,
> 
> http://blog.digitalcontentproducer.c...-sdi-switcher/
> 
> 
> I was reading it and it came to me that the C2-2000A is just going to be the current C2-2000 series with the added bandwidth. Maybe its easy for them to modify the single scaler engine models than the C2-7000 series which may require an entire new design?
> 
> 
> i wish Rob would come back form where ever he is!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Athanasios



WTF the press release is dated May 7, 2008? Isn't today the 2nd?



ERLANGER, KY, May 7, 2008 Bla bla bla



It looks to me to lacking much substance, we do have to realize we are not much of a market for TVOne.



Well maybe the 7th will be the the day Rob can talk about it.










Not to go off topic Athanasios but I think Mits ruined the EVO X 3400 pounds what are they thinking? Keep the one you have.










Mike


----------



## nashou66

if you look up from the May 7th date you'll see may 2nd i think the 7th is a typo.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Not to go off topic Athanasios but I think Mits ruined the EVO X 3400 pounds what are they thinking? Keep the one you have.



yeah I was thinking the same....I love My F*&^king EVO !!!


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Ok I just got some info on whats going on. june should be the start of the new and improved C2-2000 series, these will do 1080p is all i got but this was from a sales man not an engineer. He said they will have anew chip and will all be HD SDI I/O capable !!!!So fromt he new chip it sounds like that was the 1080p60 we were all new would come he didnt answer my 72hz question but Andy (MadMrH) says the engineers say it could be possible with timing settings adjusted(like in the lumagen and VP50).


Now for the C2-7000 series,that wount be upgraded till late this year or january 2009 hopefully. key word he used was hopefully. good news is no price changes










Regarding the C2-2000A i am not sure what that is it might be new model or a rebadged older unit. I hope its a newer lower priced model. I asked if the legacy models will be able to be sent in for the upgrades , the answer was no. so we have to wait. and if you were looking at the lower priced discount places i think they would ned to get rid of their older stock first so i personaly might no order my units till august just to make shue the older units are gone unless they keep the A suffix at the end of the units.


these are the units he mentioned:


2200A, 2250A, 2155A 2100A adds 1080P


so this is what I know or don't know so far










Athanasios Hatzinerantzis


----------



## Boilermaker

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:09 am Post subject:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Let me add some details to your information on the new TVOne units.


1 - All new products will be physically identical to their existing lineup.

2 - If a product had an SDI input before, it will now be an HD-SDI input.

3 - If a product did not have an SDI input, the new one won't.

4 - All DVI inputs will be HDCP compliant (obviously video only)

5 - The DVI input can accept up to 1920X1200 @ 60Hz. (obviously can do [email protected] 60Hz.)

6 - The sampling rate has been increased to 162MHz.

8 - Of the C2-2000A series, only the C2-2250A and C2-2255A can do edge blending.

9 - The C2-2250A has an MSRP of $2,495

10-The C2-2255A has an MSRP of $2,995 as it adds an HD-SDI input.

11-There is a rack mount kit available that can hold two C2 series as an option.

12-The IR remote is also available as an option.

13-If you order any of these, you will get the "A" model, not the old series.


I have been told that if an order is placed soon, you can be assured that you will take delivery in June. If you wait until after the first production run, there is a possibility you might have to wait for availability.


When I get back in town, I will be ordering a pair of the C2-2250A's, and since I am already set up with everything else in place, I should be watching some blended movies within a day or two after delivery.


I will certainly share my results as best I can. I Will initially set up for [email protected], and then when any bugs are worked out, I'll try for 72Hz, and also some other resolutions. It should be able to do it based on specs, but there is only one way to know for sure!


BTW, I am not getting the 2255 because I will be feeding these with a VP50Pro which has dual HD-SDI inputs.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## MadMrH

Great summary above.


I am checking point 8 for you.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/13847478
> 
> 
> Great summary above.
> 
> 
> I am checking point 8 for you.



I double checked And I believe he is correct with #8.


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH

Hi,


Well I have checked ALL the above points and would like to add the following information.


4 - All DVI inputs will be HDCP compliant (obviously video only)
this may be have to be a firmware upgrade later - will not know until release


5 - The DVI input can accept up to 1920X1200 @ 60Hz. (obviously can do [email protected] 60Hz.)
had it doing 1080P80 effectively over clocking the DVI output Chip (so yes you can do 1080P72)


8 - Of the C2-2000A series, only the C2-2250A and C2-2255A can do edge blending.
And the C2-2355 when it is released


10-The C2-2255A has an MSRP of $2,995 as it adds an HD-SDI input.
the 2255A will have HD-SDI input, but not output.

The C2-2355A will have HD-SDI input AND Output


13-If you order any of these; you will get the "A" model, not the old series.
The 2000A are not released yet - the ones at the NAB show were Technology Prototypes



RE POINT FOUR : I know this is a a required item for us all, Give TVONE time to continue the pre production work and in a couple of weeks I hope this will be a confirmed YES











TVONE are still adding and working on these products, and looks like they will be up until release.


The very good news is that TVONE have always been able to update the firmware with new features and tweaks along the way.


This has been great with the C2-7200 I have been running for some time now.


The design and firmware is all done in house so alterations are possible.


Andy.


----------



## Oliver Klohs

I do not really have anything to add but I am VERY excited and happy to hear that TVOne came through with its promise of expanded bandwidth and digital inputs










Oliver


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/13855267
> 
> 
> I do not really have anything to add but I am VERY excited and happy to hear that TVOne came through with its promise of expanded bandwidth and digital inputs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oliver



I have a couple of questions regarding the digital input signal path.


What do you use to split the digital signal between the two C2-2250A or C2-2255A and where is the device to handle D/A conversion from HDMI(HDCP) to RGBHV?


If you are using HD-SDI Blu-ray player how do you get audio to your receiver/processor? The analog outs on the Blu-ray player?


I guess what I am asking for is a block diagram.


Thanks!


Mike


----------



## damon

If you have two seperate processors (w HD-SDI inputs) I would think you would have to generate two HD-SDI signals?


Not hard to do, but is this correct with the 2355A series?


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MikeEby* /forum/post/13862657
> 
> 
> I have a couple of questions regarding the digital input signal path.
> 
> 
> What do you use to split the digital signal between the two C2-2250A or C2-2255A and where is the device to handle D/A conversion from HDMI(HDCP) to RGBHV?
> 
> 
> If you are using HD-SDI Blu-ray player how do you get audio to your receiver/processor? The analog outs on the Blu-ray player?
> 
> 
> I guess what I am asking for is a block diagram.
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Mike



Mike,


if the HD-SDI works as it does in the SD version both SDI and HDMI will be working at the same time. All you need is a splitter for HD-SDI, which might be as easy as getting an Extron splitter with BNC inputs and outputs. Someone else might confirm both outputs working but I think this would be essential for HD audio. If this does not work as described the HD SDI option would not be interesting for most users.


The other solution is even simpler: You go via HDMI to your receiver or preamp , add a splitter after that and go to the two TV-One boxes.


And no, no nice block diagrams from me, dunno how to do those










Oliver


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> if the HD-SDI works as it does in the SD version both SDI and HDMI will be working at the same time.



Yes - Both the HD-SDI and HDMI are active at the same time. I plan on using the HDMI only for the new lossless audio codecs. You could also use the analog audio outs on your Blue-Ray if it does the decoding internally.


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/13863281
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> 
> if the HD-SDI works as it does in the SD version both SDI and HDMI will be working at the same time. All you need is a splitter for HD-SDI, which might be as easy as getting an Extron splitter with BNC inputs and outputs. Someone else might confirm both outputs working but I think this would be essential for HD audio. If this does not work as described the HD SDI option would not be interesting for most users.
> 
> 
> The other solution is even simpler: You go via HDMI to your receiver or preamp , add a splitter after that and go to the two TV-One boxes.
> 
> 
> And no, no nice block diagrams from me, dunno how to do those
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oliver



Ok, for the HDMI solution, I found a low cost splitter . Then I would also assume you need two Moome boxes or HDFurys on the output of each TVOne's to handle HDCP and to do the D/A conversion?


Getting the HDCP handshaking to work sometimes can be a nightmare but assuming no EDID issues, would probably be a good idea to use a Moome box with gamma correction on the output to correct color space error on the D/A conversion or does the TVOne have gamma correction in the non-blend zone?



Mike


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Then I would also assume you need two Moome boxes



Nope only one MUX-HD it has a DVI and HDMI out, and both are mirrored , I only hope the timings are the same.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

I guess I will set mine up like this:


............................................................ .................../[email protected]

LG BH100 @1080p24>Lumagen [email protected]>Mux-HD:


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13868065
> 
> 
> I guess I will set mine up like this:
> 
> 
> ............................................................ .................../[email protected]
> 
> LG BH100 @1080p24>Lumagen [email protected]>Mux-HD:


----------



## nashou66

I am going all digital since i already have the moome cards. I guess you could go out RGBHV till the moome cards come in.


Regarding the gamma outside of the blend zone, i asked them for this feature A while ago. Specificly i asked for three iterations of gamma control all independent of each other , the blend zone obviously, the non blend zone to get it a bit closer, then a global gamma for the entire image. the latter would be hard though with two separate scalers, it be easier in the 7000 series, with the 2000 series youd have to some how have one as the master unit via the option port or something so I doubt they will add that. Andy would know more about it since he is using the latest firmware now.


Athanasios


----------



## MikeEby

Athanasios,

I am curious, what function the Lumagen HDQ scaler actually performs in your signal chain? I am trying to hold down cost in my installation, I only play Blu-ray and HD-DVD's.


Your BH100 combo player sounds like a nice solution and now since it's "Dave-Person99 Approved" it's a real winner. As you know I am big HTPC fan but if its not needed for 72Hz playback I see no reason to keep it.


Mike


----------



## nashou66

I have a SDI player and the HDQ has SDI so I want to keep it for now. Also it has more inputs that the C2-2250. I could just use the Mux -HD for inputs but then I am limited to HDMI only. I will have to wait and see what the C2-2250 can do with regards to input selection , if it has more than one memory for the dvi input like the lumagen can than i see no need for the HDQ except for its 11 point gamma and the color gamut controls it now has for adjusting primary and secondary colors. But then i would need two ! One for each C2-2250. If they can add 11 point color gamut and gamma controls in a future firmware to the Corio2 software then all will be golden with the Tv-One units !!!!!!!!











Athanasios


----------



## Oliver Klohs

Hi,


if a scaler and/or HTPC is already present it is best to keep it until we have tested the capabilities of the TVOne solutions with regard to scaling/gamma, presets and pixel mapping.


With only 1080p 24 from a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD player it might well be possible to be happy without it, but I would rather want to compare for myself - once the scaler is gone that won't be possible.


Regarding the bandwidth/digital vs analog issue: I think it is pretty safe to say that the HD Fury connected directly to the NEC inputs would not degrade picture quality that much if at all, its D/A conversion is very good even for 1080p 60 so I think it should be even better for a signal with less bandwidth.

And in the end the Moome products also have to do the D/A conversion, only they do it a tiny bit later in the input card.


Oliver


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> And in the end the Moome products also have to do the D/A conversion, only they do it a tiny bit later in the input card.



Also with the moome some are already running it at a 72hz scan rate not sure if the fury will do that.


With the short time i have the C2-7200 it had a very nice picture equal to the Lumagen maybe a bit sharper. I have two c2_2250A's on order and when i get them in and finish my HD144 conversion for my second Marquee i'll let you know.


Athanasios

Athanasios


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/13871609
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> if a scaler and/or HTPC is already present it is best to keep it until we have tested the capabilities of the TVOne solutions with regard to scaling/gamma, presets and pixel mapping.
> 
> 
> Oliver



I will not be getting rid of the HTPC until I have a solid replacement. A blend system for me is probably 8-10 months out as it will require major revamping of my theater. I have to do things like move a door to enlarge the screen, reposition all 12 bolted down seat to better center them in the room for a larger screen. Modify the soffit the projector is mounted in. Not exactly a weekend project.




















Mike


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MikeEby* /forum/post/13872166
> 
> 
> I will not be getting rid of the HTPC until I have a solid replacement. A blend system for me is probably 8-10 months out as it will require major revamping of my theater. I have to do things like move a door to enlarge the screen, reposition all 12 bolted down seat to better center them in the room for a larger screen. Modify the soffit the projector is mounted in. Not exactly a weekend project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike




THAT sounds like a lot of work !

Isn't our hobby fun ?


----------



## damon

I to am blending (or plan to!) but am not yet at the fun stage.


This hobby is alot of work!


----------



## Gino AUS

Guy's... I feel like I've been blending for the longest behind Tim, but it's a never ending evolving process! There are so many things you can tweak, upgrade and modify...


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/13878508
> 
> 
> Guy's... I feel like I've been blending for the longest behind Tim, but it's a never ending evolving process! There are so many things you can tweak, upgrade and modify...




Yepp Gino, its the nature of CRT !!! Cant have all this fun with digitals !










Athanasios


----------



## TVOneEngineer

Hi Guys,

Ok im back, we have been in discussions for the last few weeks on the new range of products that will appear in 2008/09/10 and a whole load of OEM's following NAB so have been pretty well out of touch since then.


The new products will be new versions of the current C2-2000 series, so this will be the C2-2100A, C2-2105A, C2-2150A, C2-2155A, C2-2200A, C2-2205A, C2-2250A, C2-2255A, C2-2350A, C2-2355A. These units are totally new hardware using the very latest HDMI/DVI receivers & Transmitters on the market, and have a new revision of the CORIO core scaling Engine. The new engine give us way beyond the old 108Mhz sampling rates and hence will allow the input on DVI up to the limit of single link DVI. We have also made these HDMI compatible ;-) and HDCP compatible. At long last !

The core also provides temporal interpolation and diagonal interpolation, so frame rate conversion is now much better and so is the de-interlacing.


I think I have now managed to enable notifications for this list so ishould now know when I need to reply :-D


Send me your questions !


Best regards


Rob


----------



## nashou66

Great to hear from you Rob!


I already Ordered two C2-2250's after talking with Steve Tullo at Tv-One. So what will the maximum scan rate output now be for 1080p? Will it be able to handle that at 72Mhz ? Also I splitter will be needed will the Tv-)ne splitter be u8pgraded to also have a higher clock rate or the ones in use now capable,.... After just thinking about this we will most likely be outputting 1080p24 from the source so i guess the answer will be Yes.


Can you tell us what types of color contls and gamma controls these will have? Also if the gamma is just for the blend zone. It be nice if they also have an 11 point gamma for the entire image from 0-100 ire steps, for both the blend and entire image . I am not sure how this will be done, maybe onece the blend zone is set up a global gammma can be introduced?


Athanasios


----------



## TVOneEngineer

Well the max output is the limit of single link DVI, so 162Mhz. However we got our new wizzy display port monitor this week which will do insane resolutions, so we tested the output to see how far we could over clock the DVI transmitter and we managed about 200Mhz before it fell over :-D this could be the point at which the screens DVI decoder couldn't handle the over clocking. So in summary the offical max output will be any resolution up to 162Mhz, but I managed to get 1080P85 - but that may have been luck !


Initially the control are the same as on the current 2000 series but we are looking at making the S Curve custom and the individual R & G & B gamma curves custom too, but that will be a later free firmware update.


Regards


Rob


----------



## nashou66

This all sounds great!!!!!! Cant wait to blend my Marquee 8500,s!!!!


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

This is great! I have spent the last four months of spare time and weekends remodeling my HT to do this blend and am now ready. I have a 126" wide 2.35 screen with a gain of 1.0. I have set up my two XG110LC's with brand new tubes using 1080P.


The reason I'm excited is that after setting my grayscales, I ended up with just slightly under 13Ft-L at a contrast setting of 60 on this screen. There is also obvious scan lines all over the screen including the corners at 1080P. Using the full raster height does wonders!


Besides a pair of TVOne's, the only thing still missing is a pair of Moome's new EXT-FULLHDMI1.3 D/A converters to take care of gamma boost. Surely they will come soon.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/13889813
> 
> 
> This is great! I have spent the last four months of spare time and weekends remodeling my HT to do this blend and am now ready. I have a 126" wide 2.35 screen with a gain of 1.0. I have set up my two XG110LC's with brand new tubes using 1080P.
> 
> 
> The reason I'm excited is that after setting my grayscales, I ended up with just slightly under 13Ft-L at a contrast setting of 60 on this screen. There is also obvious scan lines all over the screen including the corners at 1080P. Using the full raster height does wonders!
> 
> 
> Besides a pair of TVOne's, the only thing still missing is a pair of Moome's new EXT-FULLHDMI1.3 D/A converters to take care of gamma boost. Surely they will come soon.



I know I cant wait! it will be awhile i bet though. I still need the time to tweek it all. I am not going to retube at first, I spent that money on the scalers !







I will first use the 2 8xxx i have now and then convert the one to 9 inch LC and use the other one i got from the Gov liquidation retro i have, I might ask to borow a third C2-2250 before i set up the final blend and tri blend just for fun, 8500-9500-8500. Who knows !!!


Athanasios


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13890035
> 
> 
> I might ask to borow a third C2-2250 before i set up the final blend and tri blend just for fun, 8500-9500-8500. Who knows !!!
> 
> 
> Athanasios
















































That sounds great Boilermaker, can't wait to hear about your results.


Are you guys swaping the red/blue tubes on one projector.


What is the reason for that anyway....Gino, are you listening?


Mike


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MikeEby* /forum/post/13890937
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds great Boilermaker, can't wait to hear about your results.
> 
> 
> Are you guys swaping the red/blue tubes on one projector.
> 
> 
> What is the reason for that anyway....Gino, are you listening?
> 
> 
> Mike



yeah I know ! I'm Crazy!!!


The theory behind putting the blue tubes on the outside is, those are the ones that do not really need to fucus well as our eyes do not focus on blue well and the outer edges of the screen are that hard areas to focus, however you could argue that also with the center of the screen now since it s actually also two edges blended together. This is why you need sharp focus towards the center of the screen, it brings the red tubes to the same plane so they focus evenly with respect to each other, you want to keep the distance of each tube equal with each other, I am trying to remember this from,I believe one of Gino's threads. So Gino Help me out here !







. this is why some say a tri blend would be better since now you have the center of the screen having the best focusing, and then others say but now you'll have two areas at the third sections with the softer blend focus. So this is why its parmount to have a perfect magnetic set up, for ultra sharp focus to lessen the affects of the more poor edge focus of lens', unless you have HFQ's










Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> The theory behind putting the blue tubes on the outside is, those are the ones that do not really need to fucus well as our eyes do not focus on blue well and the outer edges of the screen are that hard areas to focus, however you could argue that also with the center of the screen now since it s actually also two edges blended together.



Athanasios, My thoughts on swapping the red and blue on one projector was to have perfect physical symmetry in the blend zone. That way all three tubes are at exactly the same distance and at the same angle in the blend zone.



> Quote:
> Are you guys swaping the red/blue tubes on one projector.



When I retubed the second projector my intention was to swap sides, but in order to do that I had to increase the length of the small coax cable carrying the video signal to one of the tubes. If I had an extra little plastic connector to make up a new longer lead I would have done it, but was in too big a hurry - hopefully I will still have a near invisible blend zone.



> Quote:
> this is why some say a tri blend would be better since now you have the center of the screen having the best focusing,



I disagree with this for two reasons. First, I am having absolutely no problem seeing scan lines from both projectors at 1080P even at the edges: and second, with three projectors you would be wasting more raster space than you would be creating. Using two to create a 2.35 inage works perfectly and fills both projectors rasters with only a 10% blend.


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Athanasios, My thoughts on swapping the red and blue on one projector was to have perfect physical symmetry in the blend zone. That way all three tubes are at exactly the same distance and at the same angle in the blend zone.



Yes I kinda tried to explain that also in my post.


I see your points on the other issues but if your going for a super wide screen say 15-20 foot a tri blend would not waste raster , and no i do not have the room for a 20 foot screen !!!










Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> if your going for a super wide screen say 15-20 foot a tri blend would not waste raster



If you wanted a screen that large using crt's, I would suggest a combination of blending and stacking with 4 projectors.


The size of the screen (as long as it has approximately 2.35 AR) has nothing to do with the raster usage in a blend. Only the AR determines this.


Each tube has somewhere between an AR of 1.33 to 1.2 that can be used considering normal keystone adjustments. When you have a screen AR of about 2.35, it almost perfectly fills both rasters from top to bottom and side to side.


If you used three projectors, the sum of the projectors AR's would be around 3.6 or higher, which means about only 1/2 of the two outside projectors raster widths would actually be used.


Draw a rectangle with an AR of about 3.6 and then "fit" another rectangle with an AR of 2.35 inside it, and you will see what I mean.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Boilermaker

Athanasios,


There is a way to use three projectors in a blend and utilize all the raster areas - Change the blend percentage from 10% to about 40%. While this would work, I see no advantage, plus I think the maximum percentage that TVOne allows is 20%.


----------



## nashou66

Bob or anyone else I have a question, I know 2.35 is the best set up for a blend with crts,However i have many 1.78 movies and got used to that size and will watch some HD network shows like 24 in my theater and do not want to go smaller for those if i set it up for 2.35. So I ask how would i figure out the needed settings for a 1.78 blend? I know I will not be able to utilize the full raster now but at least it will be using more than my current 1.78 set up correct? I figured to use full hight of the raster i would need a larger blend zone correct, so this is not recommended and also not sure what the max % zone is allowed.So this means i would need to lower the 4:3 (the 3) to something smaller , so this would not maximize my full raster hight. this is something iI think I need to think about. maybe set it up for 2.35 and then throw up a 16x9 and see what that looks like. But then with the 16x9 i will not be maximizing the width of the raster! Maybe in a 1.78 set up is where a tri blend helps.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Athanasios,


Let me walk you through the reasoning I went through for my transition, and maybe it will help. When I first saw Tim's setup 1-1/2 years ago, I knew that I just had to have a blended setup because of the picture quality.


I previously was using a 9", 10PG on an 8' wide 1.78 torus and was very happy (I really like torus'). Just like you, I watch many movies in 1.78 and also ATSC broadcasts of sports.


If I sized a 2.35 screen such that it has the same height as my original 8' wide torus, I would then have the same size picture for 1.78 material as I did before. This came out to a 10' wide 2.35 screen.


If you now use the entire 10' wide screen for a 2.35 movie, the actual picture area is twice as large as it was when shown on the original 8', 1.78 screen.


The way I view it - I have not lost any picture size when viewing 1.78 material, but have twice the piture size when viewing 2.35 movies! In both cases, my picture quality will also be better. I have lost nothing.


Actually, when laying out the renovation of my room, I couldn't help but cheat a little bit and made the actual screen 126" wide. Luckily this is not going to be a problem, as I am getting 13Ft-L with contrast at 60.


I thought about going with a 1.78 blend, but in order to use the full raster height which I feel is far more important than maximizing width, the blend area would be much larger and therefore the avantages of two projectors are lessened.


Also, since I am going to use a VP50Pro to do input switching and AR control, it is already set-up for creating the black letterbox bars for 1.78 display on a 2.35 screen.


Hope my reasoning makes sense to you.


Bob


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Maybe in a 1.78 set up is where a tri blend helps



Actually, it is worse. You need to have an even higher AR if you want to use three projectors. SOme old movies like Ben Hur have an AR of about 2.7 or so, and this is the only place you would see a benefit with three projectors.


Bob


----------



## nashou66

Thanks for your help Bob, I now have a 12 foot wide 1.78 screen and not much room to go wider, plus more money for a wider screen. I could go 14' wide but then I only have 1 foot left for my speakers, unless i mount them under the screen, which i think is a bad idea. so i guess i will live with a 12 foot wide 2.35 and then a smaller hight and width i guess 9 foot wide 1.78 wont be that bad, even though its 3 feet more narrow 1.78 image. I could always go SMX and do the full 15 feet width of my room!!!!!!!!










Athanasios


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Wow - That's aweful big! I was concerned about my little 10-1/2' screen! I would suggest you get some advice from Gino on those sizes as he has a lot of experience with these blends.


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/13895512
> 
> 
> I could always go SMX and do the full 15 feet width of my room!!!!!!!!



Holy IMax Batman!


Mike


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TvOneEngineer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The core also provides temporal interpolation and diagonal interpolation, so frame rate conversion is now much better and so is the de-interlacing.



I am worried about this interpolation, is this a frame rate interpolation of 24fps? If so I would like this feature to have the ability to be toggled on or off. I want to do frame rate conversion not interpolate frames. So I can just keep the original 24fps and up rate it to 72hz with no Interpolation. Some have seen this with other displays and say its not a good thing in all cases.


But if its for Video frames then I guess I'd have to see it first before i decide.


Athanasios


----------



## TVOneEngineer

Yep as will all features on our scalers you can turn it off and then it will just do ye olde Frame add / Frame drop frame rate conversion.


Regards


Rob


----------



## nashou66

Thanks Rob !


Athanasios


----------



## antorsae

This frame interpolation technology sounds really cool!


Question for TVOneEngineer: Has the frame-interpolation technology been tested in the edge-blending environment? Depending on the implementation, one may think that interpolation errors could be visible in the blend-zone.


----------



## Oliver Klohs

It has been very quiet in this thread - anybody got their hands on the new products yet and can report on the bandwidth/ pixel mapping side of things ?


Oliver


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/14033057
> 
> 
> It has been very quiet in this thread - anybody got their hands on the new products yet and can report on the bandwidth/ pixel mapping side of things ?
> 
> 
> Oliver



I have two C2-2250's on order from Viscount Video, oine they are in and I have my marquees ready I'll post my findings. most likely august I bet. doing a blen takes time I pressume.


Athanasios


----------



## antorsae

Great Athanasios.


I'd like to know how does one take a single DVI-D input and feed the two TV-One units. Do you need a DVI multiplier to do it?


----------



## nashou66

I have one of two way I plan on doing it. I have a geffen DVI splitter that I now use when I stack, and I also got the Moome MUX that I havn't tried yet. That has one DVI and one HDMI out. I was worried they might not output the same exact signal and timings but I was told they are simultaneous outputs. if not i'll use the geffen with the moome for the HDCP control.


Athanasios

Athanasios


----------



## antorsae

I see.


Athanasios. Did you get confirmation that the 2250 unit has frame-rate interpolation support?


----------



## nashou66

Rob says it can be toggled on or off like al features of the TV-One products!!


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

I will probably be one of the first people to get these as I am only 60 miles from TVOne. They are still saying a mid-June delivery. I already have both freshly retubed, set up and calibrated XGLC's just waiting.


I am using a Gefen two-way splitter coming from my VP50Pro. I will be using the analog outputs from the 2255's feeding a pair of X-vue gamma boxes before the projectors.


I originally was going to use a pair of Moome's new Full External boxes, but his delivery has been delayed, so I went with the X-Vue's.


It has been interesting to set these projectors up in advance because I am now sending a 1080P signal to both projectors and when I finally finished grayscale and gamma on both projectors, I cannot see any difference between the two side-by-side running at the same time.


Since I should be up and running within a day or two from delivery, I will post my findings.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14038187
> 
> 
> I will probably be one of the first people to get these as I am only 60 miles from TVOne. They are still saying a mid-June delivery. I already have both freshly retubed, set up and calibrated XGLC's just waiting.
> 
> 
> I am using a Gefen two-way splitter coming from my VP50Pro. I will be using the analog outputs from the 2255's feeding a pair of X-vue gamma boxes before the projectors.
> 
> 
> I originally was going to use a pair of Moome's new Full External boxes, but his delivery has been delayed, so I went with the X-Vue's.
> 
> 
> It has been interesting to set these projectors up in advance because I am now sending a 1080P signal to both projectors and when I finally finished grayscale and gamma on both projectors, I cannot see any difference between the two side-by-side running at the same time.
> 
> 
> Since I should be up and running within a day or two from delivery, I will post my findings.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



Sounds like a sweet setup Bob, can't wait to hear about the results. What is handling the HDCP? Are your XG's AC or LC?


Mike


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Sounds like a sweet setup Bob, can't wait to hear about the results. What is handling the HDCP? Are your XG's AC or LC?



Mike - I am using HD-SDI into my VP50Pro for Bluray. I am tired of fooling with all the handshake BS. I'm using HDMI from Bluray for audio only.


The XG's are 110LC's.


Bob


----------



## Oliver Klohs

Wow - two people on this thread will hopefully report soon - very nice !


Oliver


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14038494
> 
> 
> Mike - I am using HD-SDI into my VP50Pro for Bluray. I am tired of fooling with all the handshake BS. I'm using HDMI from Bluray for audio only.
> 
> 
> The XG's are 110LC's.
> 
> 
> Bob



I too have never been fond of the HDCP handshake BS ever since the 1st Moome card was almost useless without updating EDID chips all the time.


That's why I use and HTPC analog, your solutions sounds even better because the full digital path up to the TVOne's.


Mike


----------



## nashou66

I have not had any, I mean zero, HDCP handshake issues using my lumagen to the moome. From what I hear the lumagen handles HDCP much better than most scalers.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I have not had any, I mean zero, HDCP handshake issues using my lumagen to the moome.



Athanasios - Consider yourself lucky.


Which Bluray player are you using, and can you get 1080P at 60 and 24 out of it?


Bob


----------



## nashou66

I have the LG BH100 combo player. it outputs 1080p24. if i remove all the other resolution possibilites form an input on the lumagen and only leave 1080p then I think I can get it to output 1080p60, i havnt tried this as I'm more than happy with the native

rate of the BD 1080p24, why would you want to output 1080p60 anyhow? the lumagen will scale to that much better than any player will.


And by the way, hthis player is a very very underated player. if you havent seen one on a CRT you need to, Ask Person99(dave) he is a very discriminating guy and he loves his after i recommended it to him.


Athanasios


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

I bought this same player when it first came out and was pleased with its performance, but for some reason it quit working a few month's ago. I was interested in HD-SDI anyway, so I went with the 2nd generation Panny BDR with HDSDI which gives me everything I want.



> Quote:
> why would you want to output 1080p60 anyhow?



For video based signals (DirecTv based signals). Actually it is the more desirable 1080i.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Gary Murrell

so, who would like a HD-SDI output for their DVDO scaler?










and no this is not a sick joke










-Gary


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> so, who would like a HD-SDI output for their DVDO scaler?



Why?


----------



## damon

You may want to PM Gary.

I think he has good news for you!


----------



## Boilermaker

Will do - Thanks!


----------



## Axatax

Someone (Moome?) needs to consider doing HD-SDI input cards for CRTs.


----------



## nashou66

I asked moome and he said its not economical to do he said it would be close to 1000-1500 for input cards at first and he'd have to do about 50-75 to make it worth his while, then I dont think any one after would want one at that price point, i know i wouldnt. easier to use a SDI input scaler and go out hdmi or analog.


Athanasios


----------



## Gary Murrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14066382
> 
> 
> Why?



because I can supply it










-Gary


----------



## Axatax




> Quote:
> I asked moome and he said its not economical to do he said it would be close to 1000-1500 for input cards at first and he'd have to do about 50-75 to make it worth his while, then I dont think any one after would want one at that price point, i know i wouldnt. easier to use a SDI input scaler and go out hdmi or analog.



I wonder why. NatSemi's most expensive HD-SDI chip is $35.00 in 100 piece lots. This is less than the cost of the Si part used on Moome's first generation DVI card, which sold for $250, IIRC. The interfacing is also less involved for HD-SDI.


----------



## antorsae

I honestly don't see what the HD-SDI fuss is about.

Single-link HD-SDI doesn't have enough BW to transport 1080p60, let alone 1080p72.


----------



## damon

Antorsae,


While you are quite correct about the SMPTE 292, HD-SDI limitations as implemented on our DVX-8022s it would not be accurate that newer HD-SDI standards are not capable of much higher bandwith on a single connector/cable. Think 424M often called 3G-SDI.


I do not wish to speak for MP but believe that he thinks the 8022 performs its blending function best when fed via the HD-SDI input.


I agree with Axatax in terms of input cards, how can it not be easier & cheaper to implement copy protection free HD-SDI?


----------



## Gary Murrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *antorsae* /forum/post/14075124
> 
> 
> I honestly don't see what the HD-SDI fuss is about.
> 
> Single-link HD-SDI doesn't have enough BW to transport 1080p60, let alone 1080p72.



HD-SDI is for transfer between source and scaler mostly, basically the most important area, Scalers have the output taken care of pretty well


Mark's (and other zilla users) problem is that they need a high-end way to fed the zilla and wish to use a scaler in the process, so they need a 1080p/24 HD-SDI output on their scaler to feed it


a piece of gear that is as high-end as the zilla would no doubt perform magically with a 100% HD-SDI signal chain from the scaler (HD-SDI input device and HD-SDI output mod)


-Gary


----------



## nashou66

No Zilla talk here !!







Were in the "One Blend Zone" !!!!! With the scaling abilities and all the features of the TV_one products another scaler is not need and I anticipate the sale of a Lumagen HDQ comming soon !









And if there is something not in the Tv-One units ,we ask, they deliver. This Company as far as I can tell so far rocks!!!!!!


Athanasios


----------



## Gary Murrell

they have HD-SDI inputs though right ?










Athan, be careful before you get rid of the Lumagen though, you may miss it, Lumagen, DVDO etc. spend their days programming deinterlacing, scaling etc. and they are at the top of the game


-Gary


----------



## damon

I agree that TVOne has done a very nice job & should be applauded for their efforts!!


I myself would love a 7310!!


----------



## Boilermaker

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but TVOne's expected availability has been revised to the end of July.

Oh well - I have waited this long, so I guess another 6 weeks won't hurt me.


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14104179
> 
> 
> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but TVOne's expected availability has been revised to the end of July.
> 
> Oh well - I have waited this long, so I guess another 6 weeks won't hurt me.
> 
> 
> Bob













Athanasios


PS. as long as they get it right, More time to swap the HD144 lens'


----------



## Bobby Blaze

Hiya!


Just quick question for those of us who have to read aloud whilst underlining words with a greasy finger.


If SDI and HDMI are both digital then what advantages does SDI have over HDMI? Is it something like SDI having some kind of cable advantage or something more nefarious?



Whilst I have the ear of the gods something else that always had me scratching my head was that folk always used to say that laserdisc RF Dolby Digital sounded way better than DD from DVD. Once again, if the digital information is the same, how come the difference?


----------



## nashou66

For SD SDI vs HDMI from what I understand is that it is a pure unaltered signal, this is what broadcasters use. the signal is not touched by the decoder in anyway. With HDMI it may be, this is where the arguments come into play. Some utilize HDMI correctly others do some kind of altering. Garry Murell know it best. Also HDMI has HDCP protection where SDI does not. So for all intensive pouposes it is a "cleaner" all digital path. One more thing is some HDMI does not allow the pure 480i signal it convert it to 480p and most would rather have their much better VP doing the upscaling.


Any one else have more to add to my rudimentary elpxination?


Athanasios


----------



## Gary Murrell

guys, I got to do my first comparison between HDMI and HD-SDI the other day after I finished modding my Panny BD30, the difference is subtle but is much appreciated, there is a small veil of digitalness gone from the image, at first it looks softer due to false detail being removed but you end up with a extra bit of crispness after actually viewing, colors are better as well, cleaner looking and more natural with less gradiations


pretty much the same as with SDI for DVD










technically you lose HDCP, colorspace conversions and sampling, bit errors, handshaking BS, cable length issues and freeing of HDMI for audio work


HDMI and SDI/HD-SDI are both digital but that is all that is in common, PQ is improved and that is all that matters to me










-Gary


----------



## Alan Gouger

Im also using HD SDI. Im with Gary while the HD SDI difference can be subtle using HDMI the blueray players internal processing is adding to the ringing or EE. HD SDI gives you the purist signal. I also see an improvement in banding/posturization.


Question regarding the TVONE box. Anyone know if any of their box offer Warp technology?


Thx.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Anyone know if any of their box offer Warp technology?



Alan - I don't think that any of their products provide a warp function. I would assume that because of their Corio system, it could be done by them through programming.


Bob


----------



## Alan Gouger

Thanks Bob.


----------



## nashou66

Bob Just saw the set up so far from the pics Gary posted on another thread, looking good!!!!!!!



Athanasios


----------



## Gary Murrell

Athan/Bob


wondering what TV One unit are you guys looking at?


-Gary


----------



## nashou66

I'm Getting 2 of the C2-2250A, I think Bob Is getting 2 of the C2-2255A(HD-SDI).


Were getting Itchy!!!


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Were getting Itchy!!!



Itchy is an understatement - I have been without my HT since the end of January when my work started. I am suffering from severe withdrawal!


Bob


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14263671
> 
> 
> Itchy is an understatement - I have been without my HT since the end of January when my work started. I am suffering from severe withdrawal!
> 
> 
> Bob



I've been without mine since September 2007!


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I've been without mine since September 2007!



Holy s***! And you are still sane? You are a better man than I!


----------



## Gino AUS

I have my moments of insanity! I couldn't hack it after 3 months so I purchased a Pioneer 60" 1080P Kuro Plasma and sit 2m away from it to keep me happy. Has been ok for 6 months but recently I've really been itching to watch 169" of CRT goodness.


----------



## Gary Murrell

Gino, why have you been without for almost 10 months? I saw you had some repair issues, is that the problem?


yikes!!










-Gary


----------



## Gino AUS

I purchased new LUGs in september. Found a buyer for my LCPs so I took them out of the blend. Have since tried changing multiple things, and have run into some problems, worse of which were glycol leaks taking out boards. Being that there aren't many Marquee's in Oz, sourcing spares has been time consuming. Progress would be made, then a problem found and things put on hold for a month, then more progress, more problems, then another month of waiting etc...


Good news is that I'm almost there, a replacement Ultra is waiting for me to pickup at the local airport cargo on Tuesday.


----------



## MadMrH

Im still waiting for my Denon 3800 Blu Ray player, I also hope to be able to run the TV ONE new units here as well.


Hush box almost completed as a few minor changes have taken place.


Last few cables have arrived and im almost complete - I must post pictures of the entire setup.


Gino - Sorry to hear you have been without CRT for so long, Maybe time to try TV ONE when you get back up and running ???


Im currently setting up a 9500 Ultra down the road from me, been learning the way of the Marquee







. But I'm still Barco at heart.







.


----------



## nashou66

Andy,Nice to see you back here and that things are moving along nicely. I cant wait for the two C2-2250's to arrive and I begin the long but satisfying journey to my blend set up.


Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/14278412
> 
> 
> Gino - Sorry to hear you have been without CRT for so long, Maybe time to try TV ONE when you get back up and running ???



The thought crossed my mind more than a few times actually, but this late in the game I'm just going to see this setup through as is.


----------



## antorsae

I might try the TV-One if:


1) It can do 1:1 pixel mapping edge-blending with no scaling, at 72 Hz.

2) Frame-rate interpolation works without too many artifacts.


-Andres


----------



## MadMrH

Im gonna be put on the spot this week







.


I have an international guest popping by this week.


So I hope they will post good things !!!


My guest is a Marquee 9500 owner (not sure which version)


So I look forward to hearing their thoughts.


Andy.


----------



## Boilermaker

Guess what just arrived! Two C2-2230A's with remote and rack ears!

I have to finish a job this evening and won't get back until about midnight, but I have the next four days free and I know what I'll be doing.


I will keep you all posted.


Bob


----------



## MikeEby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14304559
> 
> 
> Guess what just arrived! Two C2-2230A's with remote and rack ears!
> 
> I have to finish a job this evening and won't get back until about midnight, but I have the next four days free and I know what I'll be doing.
> 
> 
> I will keep you all posted.
> 
> 
> Bob




Great!


Mike


----------



## Gary Murrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14304559
> 
> 
> Guess what just arrived! Two C2-2230A's with remote and rack ears!
> 
> I have to finish a job this evening and won't get back until about midnight, but I have the next four days free and I know what I'll be doing.
> 
> 
> I will keep you all posted.
> 
> 
> Bob



you want some more company Bob?

















-Gary


----------



## Gino AUS

Good luck Bob! It's exciting when you first see the images blended together and the size and sharpness!


What are you using for colorimetry/grey scale?


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14304559
> 
> 
> Guess what just arrived! Two C2-2230A's with remote and rack ears!
> 
> I have to finish a job this evening and won't get back until about midnight, but I have the next four days free and I know what I'll be doing.
> 
> 
> I will keep you all posted.
> 
> 
> Bob



I think you meant C2-2250A's but i'll let you slide due to your excitement!!!!!

I looked over the "stuff" you sent me...Very cool !!! Mine should be on the way too!!!!!!! Arrggg!!!! Cant Wait !!!!!!!!


Athanasios


----------



## Oliver Klohs

Way to go Bob and I am sure that soon you will have lots of questions to answer










I have seen the photos of your rig in another thread and I am sure this will end up looking fantastic provided the TVOne units do what they are supposed to do.


----------



## Boilermaker

Just woke up - Got to send out a few e-mails and then I'm putting up the "Do Not Disturb" sign in my HT and won't come out till I'm done!



> Quote:
> you want some more company Bob?



I'll let you know as soon as I have it all together and then I certainly welcome you.



> Quote:
> What are you using for colorimetry/grey scale?



I'm using the HCFR freeware which seems to work fine, but a little clunky.



> Quote:
> I think you meant C2-2250A's but i'll let you slide due to your excitement!!!!!



Yes - I feel like a little kid at Christmas.


Later,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

Woo Hoooo!!!!! Just got my tracking number from Viscount Video ! its being delivered to my Restaurant today!!!!! Yeah!!!! Oh Shiaht!!! I'm not ready !!! My One PJ needs to have the HD 144 Installed!!!! Arghh!!!!!!!!


Athanasios


----------



## Gary Murrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/14309552
> 
> 
> Woo Hoooo!!!!! Just got my tracking number from Viscount Video ! its being delivered to my Restaurant today!!!!! Yeah!!!! Oh Shiaht!!! I'm not ready !!! My One PJ needs to have the HD 144 Installed!!!! Arghh!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Athanasios



what kind of restaurant do you have Athan?, I am assuming it isn't Italian?










-Gary


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gary Murrell* /forum/post/14312286
> 
> 
> what kind of restaurant do you have Athan?, I am assuming it isn't Italian?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Gary



LOL ha ha ha," you eat no meat? Ok, I Make Lamb"



Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH

Hi,


I am not sure of the USA TVONE reps are up to speed with all the units yet..........


There is a very HIGH chance that the new units that have arrived are currently NOT HDCP compliant.


IF this is the case then I think it is about 2 weeks until the firmware release is due that will resolve this.


ALL production units are sold, so there is amazing demand for these units.


Tech spec for the C2-xxxxA units now appears under the product search on the www.tvone.com website


Firmware can be found here
http://tvone.crmdesk.com/answer.aspx...ery%3dfirmware 


Enjoy,


Andy.


----------



## nashou66

Just got mine in Andy but have not tried to hook it up yet to see if it will pass hdcp, the blend is at least a month away. unless i mess around with one Marquee with HD 8's and the other with the HD 144's, that be neat to see how flexible thses units can be. They do say that identical projectors are not needed to get a perfect blend. hmmmmm...


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

I have come to the conclusion that this is one of those things that takes two days to do the first time, two hours the seond time and one hour from there on!


I waisted four hours yesterday trying to get it to accept the 1080P digital signal from my VP50Pro. It would accept the analog input but not digital and I wasn't going to accept the analog input.


I assumed that it was a problem with the TVOne, but I finally figured out that my VP50Pro was set on "HDCP-YES" so that it would not output unless it found an HDCP handshake. I never had an issue before because I always used the analog outputs. Switched it to no, and all is well. I felt really dumb!


I can attest that it most certainly accepts [email protected] without down sampling from its DVI input.


I am having just two problems that I need to solve before I finish:


1 - I can't seem to get it to store settings as when I turn it off, it goes back to default settings.


2 - When I adjust the vertical zoom to set the aspect ratio I need, it moves as it should, but it won't move again after I store it.


I will be calling TVOne support in a few minutes to find out what I am doing wrong, but everything else is AOK.

The picture is awesome and setting up the blend zone is actually the easiest part.


Gotta run now and finish, but I'll be back with a report.


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14316510
> 
> 
> I have come to the conclusion that this is one of those things that takes two days to do the first time, two hours the seond time and one hour from there on!
> 
> 
> I waisted four hours yesterday trying to get it to accept the 1080P digital signal from my VP50Pro. It would accept the analog input but not digital and I wasn't going to accept the analog input.
> 
> 
> I assumed that it was a problem with the TVOne, but I finally figured out that my VP50Pro was set on "HDCP-YES" so that it would not output unless it found an HDCP handshake. I never had an issue before because I always used the analog outputs. Switched it to no, and all is well. I felt really dumb!
> 
> 
> I can attest that it most certainly accepts [email protected] without down sampling from its DVI input.
> 
> 
> I am having just two problems that I need to solve before I finish:
> 
> 
> 1 - I can't seem to get it to store settings as when I turn it off, it goes back to default settings.
> 
> 
> 2 - When I adjust the vertical zoom to set the aspect ratio I need, it moves as it should, but it won't move again after I store it.
> 
> 
> I will be calling TVOne support in a few minutes to find out what I am doing wrong, but everything else is AOK.
> 
> The picture is awesome and setting up the blend zone is actually the easiest part.
> 
> 
> Gotta run now and finish, but I'll be back with a report.
> 
> 
> Bob



Bob, Andy says that the latest firmware is not out yet for these units and that is two weeks away so in may be that's the problem with the memory. It sounds like there may be a way to save and lock the memory and you need to unlock it to be able to adjust the zoom.


Athanasios


----------



## damon

Real Progress. I like it!!


----------



## Boilermaker

Just spoke with TVOne tech who was very responsive and very helpful.

He said that the units just shipped do have the latest firmware available. I'm sure there will be future ones.


The memory problem was mine - When you change a value, you hold the button down until the brackets quit flashing. That sets the value. To save it, you need to hold it down several seconds until it beeps. I wasn't doing that. You can actually save everything at the end by the same technique.


The vertical zoom is probably a problem with the unit, but was easily solved. The "freezing" only happens when it is in Genlock mode. In discussion with him, I was easily convinced to not use genlock - for several reaons.


I am now going to re-converge both projectors as I had to change some settings which is what I expected.


I have the outputs set at [email protected] so that both projectors actually are getting that signal. I actually want to feed them both [email protected] for 2.35 film stuff and then [email protected] for video based signals.


In order to do this, I need to download the software to make these available. Remember, this Corio stuff is programmable! Since that is probably another learning curve and I am horny for some movies, I will finish what I am doing and make those changes at a later date. These changes will free up some bandwidth and the TVOne is perfctly capable of doing those.


Back to work,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

What size blend zone are you trying? You can make your own custom res' with out the software. I remeber doing it with the C2-7200 i had as a demo.



Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH

Hi Bob,


I currently only have the 7200 as all 2xxxA series units are sold so I dont have a demo unit here at the mo.


The way tvone works for memory.......


You set the items you want and then either "STORE" from the system memory, or for me press and hold the jog wheel for a couple of seconds.


Once you have done that for ALL settings that is the power up setting of the unit, you can then use MACROS for some changes, the 7200 and maybe 2xxxA series have presets as well, slightly different to Macro use.



BLENDING for the FIRST TIME - there is a TVONE blending guide - Did you read that ??? that takes you through the steps and takes about 15 minutes to get your first blend running







.



HDCP - from what was posted then it looks like we can confirm there is NO HDCP with the first released units - I know this is about to be upgraded so keep watching for the new firmware.


----------



## MadMrH

IF YOU FIND ANY BUGS or ISSUES with these new units would you PLEASE PM them to me.


I will need to know your unit model, which input in use, what you were doing and any settings that might help.


I have to say that the 7200 was very smooth running and that nearly all firmware updates added features.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> What size blend zone are you trying?



It is 10% or 190 pixels wide. I can tell you now that this COMPLETELY fills up the tube face with picture from top to bottom and from side to side.


I'm glad I measured twice and cut once when I installed the projectors. There are two colored lines that form the area of the blend zone. When I set up the zone size at 10%, all the lines fell within 1/8" of meeting! Almost no adjusting to do!



> Quote:
> You can make your own custom res' with out the software.



Are you sure? When I'm done with the setup sometime this afternoon I'll go back through the menu's to see if I can find it. Either way, that is where the Corio-2 really shines!

I can just do a data copy on my pj's, and be fairly close. At least I know I will not have to ever physically move the projectors!

Bob


Bob


----------



## MadMrH

Use the RESOLUTION EDITOR to create ANY custom resolution you want.

http://tvone.crmdesk.com/answer.aspx...wse.aspx%23p59


----------



## nashou66

Andy I just put it in my system but not as a blend yet as I dont have my other PJ ready, but i was playing with the output res and refresh rate(not useing the PC softwear yet), how can you get it to output from the front panels a multiple of 24? I am only getting multiples of 25 or 30.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> how can you get it to output from the front panels a multiple of 24? I am only getting multiples of 25 or 30.



I asked them the same thing this morning, and they said that they only included industry standard rez's and refresh rates but that you

can create anything you want as long as the max of 165Mhz is not exceeded.



> Quote:
> Use the RESOLUTION EDITOR to create ANY custom resolution you want.



Thanks Andy - I'll be doing just that!


Bob


----------



## MadMrH

Nidi from Switzerland came by here this week.


One of the first things he asked about was running 72Hz


I showed him thats what my Barcos are running from the 7200


The resolution editor is not currently listed for the new 2xxxA series - I will check on that and post back.


----------



## MadMrH

Oh! when they said you must not go past 165MHz thats the offical line........


However testing up past 185 ish and I think as far as 200MHz has been achieved







.


And YES I do mean via the DVI output.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/14319736
> 
> 
> Oh! when they said you must not go past 165MHz thats the offical line........
> 
> 
> However testing up past 185 ish and I think as far as 200MHz has been achieved
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> And YES I do mean via the DVI output.



Yes it is possible, Rob the TV-One tech here has stated that they pushed it that far in an earlier post and said that rez they were running was in the 200 range.I think it was 1080p85....


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

here is that original post:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/13889215
> 
> 
> Well the max output is the limit of single link DVI, so 162Mhz. However we got our new wizzy display port monitor this week which will do insane resolutions, so we tested the output to see how far we could over clock the DVI transmitter and we managed about 200Mhz before it fell over :-D this could be the point at which the screens DVI decoder couldn't handle the over clocking. So in summary the offical max output will be any resolution up to 162Mhz, but I managed to get 1080P85 - but that may have been luck !
> 
> 
> Initially the control are the same as on the current 2000 series but we are looking at making the S Curve custom and the individual R & G & B gamma curves custom too, but that will be a later free firmware update.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Rob


----------



## Oliver Klohs

Bob,


can you please check if precise 1:1 pixel mapping is possible with the new units ?


Thanks !


Oliver


----------



## nidi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/14319712
> 
> 
> Nidi from Switzerland came by here this week.
> 
> 
> One of the first things he asked about was running 72Hz
> 
> 
> I showed him thats what my Barcos are running from the 7200
> 
> 
> The resolution editor is not currently listed for the new 2xxxA series - I will check on that and post back.




Ok, I have seen MadMrH setup and can only say WOW!


this TVOne unit he's currently using is just amazing, don't think that there can be anything better. seamless blending !


and I looked VERY hard to find the blendzone.


finally the brightness of Digitals with the contrast of CRT !


and 72 Hz (trippled framterate of HD-DVD) this unit is fully able to produce

a stunning picture with anamorphic SCOPE movies.


Thanks Andy for having me


Michael


----------



## MadMrH

Hi


No worries Nidi.


Was great to meet you, Anytime you are in the UK drop in.


I always worry what others will think, its always very nice when people are impressed. And from a 9500LC Ultra owners this is praise indeed.


PS - Tell STEVE







.


----------



## Alan Gouger

MadMrH


If Ive missed them Im sorry, do you have any picture of both the setup and a few screen caps. Would love to see your setup.

Sounds both impressive and intriguing.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> can you please check if precise 1:1 pixel mapping is possible with the new units ?



Oliver, I have had a delay in my setup. In order to get the blendzone correct, I ended up with the picture 1" short of both sides of my screen. I set up my projectors to maximise the tube face but actually got just a little to aggressive with it, so I am moving them both back 4" and starting from scratch. Because, for asthetics, I ran the cables inside the 4" steel tubing; so I have to drop them both, drill new holes and re-pull the wire.


Andy would know for sure if 1:1 pixel maping is possible with the new units.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Gary Murrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14325570
> 
> 
> Oliver, I have had a delay in my setup. In order to get the blendzone correct, I ended up with the picture 1" short of both sides of my screen. I set up my projectors to maximise the tube face but actually got just a little to aggressive with it, so I am moving them both back 4" and starting from scratch. Because, for asthetics, I ran the cables inside the 4" steel tubing; so I have to drop them both, drill new holes and re-pull the wire.
> 
> 
> Andy would know for sure if 1:1 pixel maping is possible with the new units.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



Bob, that sucks man







, if you need any help with anything just give me a shout


if you are not near the edge as far as possible just use the porch controls on the VP50pro to extended your horz size some










-Gary


----------



## Boilermaker

Got an update on the Vertical Zoom problem I was having.

It was entirely self-inflicted as I was using Genlock incorrectly. With separate units, you have to lock one unit to the output of the second one and everything works OK. Makes sense.


Bob


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> if you are not near the edge as far as possible just use the porch controls on the VP50pro to extended your horz size some



Thanks Gary - I already did that. I really got too close as the last inch or so of the left side was a little squirrely as they usually are at the beginning of a sweep. At this point, I don't want to do something that I know I will re-do in the future knowing that I got impatient!!!


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14326201
> 
> 
> Got an update on the Vertical Zoom problem I was having.
> 
> It was entirely self-inflicted as I was using Genlock incorrectly. With separate units, you have to lock one unit to the output of the second one and everything works OK. Makes sense.
> 
> 
> Bob



How is that done so when i get to the set up stage i dont do the same thing.


Athanasios


----------



## Gary Murrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14326227
> 
> 
> Thanks Gary - I already did that. I really got too close as the last inch or so of the left side was a little squirrely as they usually are at the beginning of a sweep. At this point, I don't want to do something that I know I will re-do in the future knowing that I got impatient!!!
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



Bob my advice while you are redoing setup anyway is to expand the image about 10% horizontally on the XG and then reduce back to appropriate size with the porches on the pro, that way the nastiness along the edges of the image is outside the viewing area, that would totally get rid of that slight raster ringing you had on the far left side of your image from the left side PJ and in the middle from the right side PJ


I had nasty raster ringing on the left and a few interference lines vertically, I expanded the image 20% beyond the edge of my screen on the XG and then reduced the porch settings on the VP50pro and enjoy a 100% clean image, I have never seen a PJ with clean image edges, so no knock on the NEC










raster ringing annoys the heck out of me










-Gary


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nidi* /forum/post/14324495
> 
> 
> seamless blending !
> 
> 
> and I looked VERY hard to find the blendzone.



Andy, does this now mean that the blendzone is completely invisible at 0IRE and 100IRE for R,G,B,W? IIRC you were having problems in the darker range before?


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I expanded the image 20% beyond the edge of my screen on the XG and then reduced the porch settings on the VP50pro and enjoy a 100% clean image,



Excellent idea, Gary. What values would you start with?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## overclkr

This is getting exciting. :^)


----------



## Gary Murrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14328807
> 
> 
> Excellent idea, Gary. What values would you start with?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



Bob for 1080p output on the VP50pro here are my porch settings, I would say punch them in and then expand the horz width control on the XG's to where it comes out right for you:


horz front porch 237

horz back porch 280


when you do this you expand the internal grids and convergence system to be outside your blanking and active image viewing, no problem though as the convergence system works 100% as normal because the XG has so much control, just converge what you can see, reset the system so you have baseline points off screen, convergence actually comes in better like this because you can use points outside your viewing area blanking to bring in a 100% perfectly converged image out to the farthest edge and corners, I mean 100% perfect


-Gary


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *overclkr* /forum/post/14328946
> 
> 
> This is getting exciting. :^)



Cliff if your PJ were set up for a blend I'd bring my units to the meet since my blend a couple months away.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Sorry to take so long in getting an update out, but I had a days full of domestic chores to do yesterday, but I got both pj's moved and set up.

I have some work I need to do tomorrow morning but will certainly finish tomorrow afternoon sometime.


I PROMISE I will have a full report following that, but can tell you right now that I am thoroughly impressed with the TVOne units.

If/When I ever replace my VP50Pro, I will definately be getting a 7000 series TVOne to replace everything.


Later,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14332042
> 
> 
> Sorry to take so long in getting an update out, but I had a days full of domestic chores to do yesterday, but I got both pj's moved and set up.
> 
> I have some work I need to do tomorrow morning but will certainly finish tomorrow afternoon sometime.
> 
> 
> I PROMISE I will have a full report following that, but can tell you right now that I am thoroughly impressed with the TVOne units.
> *If/When I ever replace my VP50Pro, I will definately be getting a 7000 series TVOne to replace everything.*
> 
> 
> Later,
> 
> Bob



I Agree, and plan to do the same with my lumagen possibly.Maybe by that time they will have upgraded the 7000 series to the same higher clock rate chips.


Athansios


----------



## antorsae

Bob, Athanasios, can you comment on the frame-rate interpolation technology those unit have?


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14328807
> 
> 
> Excellent idea, Gary. What values would you start with?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



If you don't have issues with ringing, I'd actually advise that you choose to shrink the size of your raster rather than shrinking the active image area within your raster. You'll still gain the benefits with tighter corner focus.


----------



## pavlin

is there any difference in PQ between C2-2250A and 7000 series ?


grega


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pavlin* /forum/post/14341012
> 
> 
> is there any difference in PQ between C2-2250A and 7000 series ?
> 
> 
> grega



The single engine C2-2000A series has the higher bandwith chip set, the C2-7000 series is about 6 months away from getting the same hardware upgrade.

So i think they are close but for higher bandwidth applications the new single engine units will be better till the 7000 seies upgrade then they should look the same.


Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS

If there is no PQ difference between the two, are you paying purely for the extra inputs? Seems like a huge price difference.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/14341516
> 
> 
> If there is no PQ difference between the two, are you paying purely for the extra inputs? Seems like a huge price difference.



I'm not 100% sure about it Gino but from what I have been told in the past there is not a difference in PQ, but you get the convienence of on box which means less equipment and cables, also i think they have better audio capabilities and also as you said the added inputs also two HD SDI,s is a big plus for the C2-7200, the C2-7100 i have seen around for 6000 but that has no SDI. Also some have more control buttons on the front panel.


Athanasios


----------



## pavlin

but if i already have crystalio2 with 2 hd-sdi inputs , than two C2-2250A would be fine ? and one more thing , i realy like the crystalio2 deinterlacing and scaling . is it possible to use C2-2250A just as a blender ?


grega


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pavlin* /forum/post/14341724
> 
> 
> but if i already have crystalio2 with 2 hd-sdi inputs , than two C2-2250A would be fine ? and one more thing , i realy like the crystalio2 deinterlacing and scaling . is it possible to use C2-2250A just as a blender ?
> 
> 
> grega



Yes that is what I am going to do, then use the scaling of my Lumagen HDQ, But i will try it as a stand alone scaler as Bob says it is really really good . i have not tried it alone but might this week on my one PJ I have ready, my second is in pieces waiting the install of HD 144's.


Athanasios


----------



## Gary Murrell

Bob's combo of VP50pro plus blenders will be friggin amazing, that is the way to go for sure


-Gary


----------



## MadMrH

I was getting daily emails/PMs about supply of the TVONE units, it now appears I am getting hourly emails/PMs.


So those that are serious about buying within the next month please contact me.


Depending on numbers I will arrange a mini style power buy







.


----------



## Gino AUS

Andy, I'd be interested in this mini power buy if it beats the price I am looking at now.


----------



## MadMrH

Hi Gino, You already have that price










As does everyone who has asked me.


----------



## Boilermaker

I'm back.

You pobably thought I had given up, but I didn't, and I'm glad I didn't!


They say you learn from your mistakes, and I certainly have learned much about the TVOne's blending boxes.


The reason it took me soo long was because I made a fundamental error at the beginning and I was too dumb to realize it until yesterday morning. I was shooting for a 10% blend as this was within the 10-20% range that TVOne suggests in their manual and they also use 10% in their set up example.


I'm probably the only person who interpreted 10% to mean 10% of the viewing surface instead of 10% of each preoector, but that is what I did. Obviously 10% of each projector equates to 5% of the viewing surface. Bottom line is that you can't put a quart of water into a pint container!


I wore myself out trying to make it work, and in the process became intimately familiar with the TVOne's menu and capabilities. Nowhere in the manual does it state what the 10% is, so I made the wrong assumption. Once I set it up properly - WOW!


I have some suggestions for others to make it a little easier, but first I want to thank Gary for his expertise on the VP50Pro which helped me set up an easy 1-macro button on my i-Pronto to handle aspect ratio changes form 1.78 to 2.35, and Andy with his help on the TVOne. I believe that he is THE "TVOne Guru"!


Suggestions:


1 - Don't make the same stupid mistake I made as it will never work.

2 - G2, black & white levels, and grey scale differences are exposed if not perfect. I would suggest re-doing these after you blend. My reasoning for this is that you can adjust your G-2, and black and white levels on both projectors at the same time which should make it easier. Also, this way the TVOne's will be in the circuit.

3 - If you are using any gamma correction such as the ones curreectly available you will obviously need two of them so watching them side by side, you can better match them.

4 - Determine the blend percent you are going to use, and then mark your screen with painters tape exactly where the outer edge of each projectors image is going to be.

5 - Set up your AR controls (however you are going to do it) so that you have a full screen for sizing.

6 - Set up the first projector so that the picture fills the screen to the edge of your marker and fully converge it. You can turn "off" the edge blending to do this so you can see the edge of the picture.

7 - Using external test patterns (I used the internal focus pattern of the VP50, but you can use any test DVD or BluRay) set up the second projector again to the other marked edge on your screen. Turn "ON" the TVOne's "markers" which show the beginning and end of the blend zone so that they can be perfectly aligned with each other using your convergence controls on the second projector.

8 - Turn on the "Blend" and you should have perfect geometry and an awesome picture with a noticeable gamma problem in the blend zone.

9 - Adjust the Blend zone gamma in both TVOne's until it is invisible. This was particularly difficult for me, because all my hardware is in a pair of racks in the basement so I had to run up and down the stairs to make corrections. The gamma controls are very fine in their adjustment, so my legs are tired!

10 - Enjoy some movies!


My opinions, for what they are worth!:


1 - If you decide to do this, you will be convinced that if there is a better display anywhere, it will most certainly be another blended crt setup - It is that impressive!

2 - After my lengthy learning curve I would estimate that it would take about 1/2 hour longer to set up a blend than it takes to set up two conventional crts.

3 - TVOne's product is simple, intuitive, and very easy to use. You can get to any part of the menu within a few seconds and it has the ability to "store" any entered data at any point in the menu and reminds you with a "beep" that it is stored.

4 - I have both of my TVOne's on a shared 1RU chassis that is an available option which makes it very easy to see both LCD screens at the same time.

5 - The chassis runs only mildly warm.

6 - Don't waste your money on the remote if you intend on using an existing scaler to feed them.


What's next:


1 - First, I'm going to follow my own advice and redo greyscale, gamma, G2, etc.

2 - The real power of the TVOne's is its Corio2 engine which has the capability of creating custom resolutions and refresh rates. I want to take advantage of this. I am waisting valuable bandwidth right now so I am going to feed my TVOne's with a [email protected] from my VP50Pro and set my outputs to [email protected] which should produce a noticable improvement. I might also try [email protected] to double the existing signal. This might be a little agressive for an 8", but for you lucky guys with two 9"ers, it should be easy!


Thanks for your patience in my learning experience,

Bob


----------



## antorsae

Great report Bob!


Any comments on the frame-rate doubling technology?


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Any comments on the frame-rate doubling technology?



Sorry - I know nothing more about their interpolation techniques other than what is on their website. I do know, however, that interpolation can be turned off in the menu so that a 24 Hz input can be tripled without interpolating to 72Hz. Hope that helps.


Bob


----------



## Gino AUS

Sounds like fun, I am very seriously considering picking these up (confirming some final tidbits with Andy first before pulling the trigger) to see how they compare to the DVX.


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14357182
> 
> 
> 1 - If you decide to do this, you will be convinced that if there is a better display anywhere, it will most certainly be another blended crt setup - It is that impressive



I love this post

















So what size blendzone did you end up with in the end? Kept it at 10% of the screen, so you changed the setting to 20% on the tvone's?


----------



## nashou66

When you told me Bob in an e-mail you were going to do a 10% blend i was thinging 20% is to big and you wont use the "full" brightnes of the tube face, being that the blend fadeing would start too soon on the tube face. but i figured you knew more than me







I was going to tell you to do 5% for each to end up with an overall 10% blend zone. But I am glad you figured it out.

I still have a lot of my maintenance to the PJs before I can begin, but your review has me all excited, I spend 5 hours last night replacing the electrolyitcs and a few resistors and Ceramic caps on one half of one LVPS. I measured all the voltages on the Mother board pins and they are all dead on now. Before they were slightly off. Still waiting for more parts, I think I am addicted to changing parts !!!!


Glad you have it up and running !!


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> So what size blendzone did you end up with in the end? Kept it at 10% of the screen, so you changed the setting to 20% on the tvone's?



Kept it at 10% of the projector, but now succesfully using just 5% of my total 126" width.

I forgot what size your screen is. Judging by the light output I am getting, I would not be afraid to try a 12+' at 2.35 with 9"ers.


----------



## nashou66

I have a 12 foot screen now(16x9) I do not know how I will go, I might just keep it and go with 2.4 and cover the rest with black velvet. but I really like watching my 1.78 on this huge screen even tho its not too bright. So I was thinking of going 14 feet wide to keep the 16x9 the same but that might be too much, yet probably still brighter than what i have now. the Hurley screen will only be 400 dollars shipped. I'll set it up on the floor with 16x9 then with 2.4 on the 12 foot wide for now and see which I like, if its bright enough with a 16x9 raster set up on this current screen I might go a bit bigger to 13.5 feet and switch to the 2.4 set up. But this is a month or so away.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Athanasios,


If you predominately watch 16;9 sources, I would go that way. You can still be efficient on the raster usage, and it certainly makes AR shifting easy.


I don't know your seating layout, but I would seriously consider downsizing your screen sizes a bit. The dynamic punch that this has now is incredible. I would hate to give some of that up for a size increase.


I was used to watching 2.35 movies on an 8' wide torus screen and a 9" 10PG. By going to a 10-1/2' wide 2.35 screen, the picture is now about 2.25 times the original size and I actually now prefer the second row seating better!


But, at least you will have the ability to play around with sizes before making your final decision.


Bob


----------



## nashou66

I sit about 165 inches from a 144 inch wide screen so its right in your face!!! But i admit the second row is nice too but the comfortable seats are the front row, my back seats are vintage 1950's theater seats from an old small town theater that closed down about 10 years ago, i got 10 seats for 25 bucks each!! they really cool older seats from the 20's that were cast iron and all wood and a few rows of wood seats and padded backs from the 30's. So i might just do the 16x9 as is and do the CIW set up for now. when i convert it to a 9 inch blend I'll go bigger.

Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I sit about 165 inches from a 144 inch wide screen so its right in your face!!!



The ratio of seating distance to screen width that you have is about 1/2 way between my first and second row. With my current setup,that would be perfect. My first row is way in your face, but that is purely subjective and I might change my mind as I get used to it.


----------



## TVOneEngineer

Hi Guys,

Been rather busy in my new role, but I'm back again now !


Glad to see that a few people have managed to get their hands on 2000A units  and that they are producing good results.


Update on HDCP - its being worked upon and should be ready in a week or two - its a real pain in the a***. (if you want to beta it send me a PM)


One thing I have noticed in all your posts is the custom resolutions that you are using including the 1080P72, are there a few resolutions that you are all using? if there is a common set then ill look to add them into the firmware as default.


Best regards


Rob


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14357467
> 
> 
> Sorry - I know nothing more about their interpolation techniques other than what is on their website. I do know, however, that interpolation can be turned off in the menu so that a 24 Hz input can be tripled without interpolating to 72Hz. Hope that helps.
> 
> 
> Bob



Yes we have improved the frame rate converter, the normal mode is to perform frame add / frame drop when doing FRC, the new version is temporal interpolation so we actually interpolate the missing frames - so things like scrolling text across the screen is now smooth rather than juddering.


If you set it to off then it will go back to frame add / drop which is the same operation as on the 1K/3K/7K units.


Regards


Rob


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pavlin* /forum/post/14341012
> 
> 
> is there any difference in PQ between C2-2250A and 7000 series ?
> 
> 
> grega



Yes there will be a difference the 2000A, the 200A has better Frame rate conversion and more bandwidth.


Regards


Rob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Update on HDCP - its being worked upon and should be ready in a week or two - its a real pain in the a***.



Ain't that the truth!!!


Nice to see you back Rob And Keep up the good work. I think the res sets that Boilmaker is using would be a good start. We mostly want a nice res set for blending 2.35/2.40 and 1.78 aspects being able to either double the actually scaned area of the image. Since blu ray is 1080p but the actual area of the scope movie is either 800 or 817 so its more like 1920x817 for 2.35 aspect ratio, this also frees up more bandwidth for the VP and the PJ.


Also have you done any thing with adding a global 11 point gamma to the units so we can adjust gamma for each PJ individualy and do away with out non Blending scaler to take care of it. One less pice of gear will always be nice. So we will still gave the gamma for the blend zone but add another "global" gamma so we can adjust it at 11 points of the IRE from 0-100 IRE.Some type of Color correction for the primaries with the same 11 points would be very cool too!


And for a new product that I think would help the Home theater and the comercial market for those who use two blending units would be a input switcher with varying inputs(HDMI,Component, S Video Composite, and maybe HD/SD SDI) that has two mirroring outputs so we can send the same signal to each unit. this would further eliminate the need for another scaler. this would need no scaling functions just a swhitcher of high bandwidth with two identical outputs. And some this switcher cold be controld by one of the units that would be made the Mater unit only for switching the Input Switcher.


Sound like a good idea? the add on input devises you now have are only good for a single unit.


Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14358127
> 
> 
> Kept it at 10% of the projector, but now succesfully using just 5% of my total 126" width.
> 
> I forgot what size your screen is. Judging by the light output I am getting, I would not be afraid to try a 12+' at 2.35 with 9"ers.



I'm at 13' cinemascope... 14ftL's


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/14360964
> 
> 
> Update on HDCP - its being worked upon and should be ready in a week or two - its a real pain in the a***. (if you want to beta it send me a PM)



Rob, is this purely a firmware update to get this?


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I'm at 13' cinemascope... 14ftL's



WOW! I'm running 12.4ftL's.

How high are you running your contrast - As I recall you're using one MP's mod that allows high contrast without blooming.


Is your screen gain 1.0?


Bob


----------



## donaldk

Gee, one can now even take classes in softedge-blending http://livedesignonline.com/news/ana..._classes_0722/ , perhaps Rob the TVOneEngineer will take on some extra workload;-).



Analog Way Soft Edge Blending Classes Certified By InfoComm’s Certified Technology Specialists Training Program

Jul 22, 2008 1:43 PM


Analog Way is proud to announce the certification of its Soft Edge Blending Classes by the InfoComm International’s Certified Technology Specialists (CTS) Training Program – Earning: 1RU. The demand for Soft Edge Blending(SEB) installations and shows is rapidly growing due to the profound impact of the presentations enabled by this technology.



Soft Edge Blendingconsists of the set up of a large screen image using multiple video projectors with overlapping areas that make the seams between projectors invisible. This application requires specific techniques from the calculation of the screen size to the adjustment of image parameters in order to obtain a perfect seamless image.



To enhance the service provided to its customers and the end users of its products, Analog Waydeveloped a training program called “Analog Days.” The success of the sessions organized in Europe pushed the company to move this program even further with the organization of training sessions dedicated to Soft Edge Blendingoffered on its booth during InfoComm08, Las Vegas. These sessions of 1 hour each, offered in English and Spanish, allowed the attendees to gain all the necessary knowledge and experience to create a perfect Soft Edge Blendinginstallation or show.


Following these classes, attendees were presented with an Analog WaySoft Edge Blending Certificate Of Achievement, Level 1 and the InfoComm International’s Certified Technology Specialists (CTS) Training Program certified these Soft Edge Blending classes. From now on, each Soft Edge Blending classoffered by Analog Waywill give credit to attendees for 1 RU, ensuring the quality of the training delivered.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> One thing I have noticed in all your posts is the custom resolutions that you are using including the 1080P72, are there a few resolutions that you are all using? if there is a common set then ill look to add them into the firmware as default.



Rob - Many thanks for your interest, and yes I have a list. It is all based on inputs of 1920X1080 at 24, 30 & 60 refresh for picture AR's of 1.78, 2.40 and 2.35.


1 - 1152X1225 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.35 AR CIH - is 1.5 times actual 817 lines of info

2 - 1152X1200 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.40 AR CIH - is 1.5 times actual 800 lines

3 - 1152X1080 @ 60 & 72 - for 1.78 AR CIH -

4 - 1152X1600 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.40 AR CIH - is 2.0 times actual

5 - 1152X1634 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.35 AR CIH - is 2.0 times actual


The 1152 figure is based on a 10% blend which appears to be the most desired. It should be very close in total to the incoming 1920 after blending.


All of the above are lower in frequency than [email protected], but the last two are higher than [email protected]


Thanks!

Bob


----------



## Gary Murrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/14360964
> 
> 
> Hi Guys,
> 
> Been rather busy in my new role, but I'm back again now !
> 
> 
> Glad to see that a few people have managed to get their hands on 2000A units  and that they are producing good results.
> 
> 
> Update on HDCP - its being worked upon and should be ready in a week or two - its a real pain in the a***. (if you want to beta it send me a PM)
> 
> 
> One thing I have noticed in all your posts is the custom resolutions that you are using including the 1080P72, are there a few resolutions that you are all using? if there is a common set then ill look to add them into the firmware as default.
> 
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 
> Rob



nice to see you on here Rob, I am sure people will enjoy your presence here










-Gary


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14362269
> 
> 
> Rob - Many thanks for your interest, and yes I have a list. It is all based on inputs of 1920X1080 at 24, 30 & 60 refresh for picture AR's of 1.78, 2.40 and 2.35.
> 
> 
> 1 - 1152X1225 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.35 AR CIH - is 1.5 times actual 817 lines of info
> 
> 2 - 1152X1200 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.40 AR CIH - is 1.5 times actual 800 lines
> 
> 3 - 1152X1080 @ 60 & 72 - for 1.78 AR CIH -
> 
> 4 - 1152X1600 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.40 AR CIH - is 2.0 times actual
> 
> 5 - 1152X1634 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.35 AR CIH - is 2.0 times actual
> 
> 
> The 1152 figure is based on a 10% blend which appears to be the most desired. It should be very close in total to the incoming 1920 after blending.
> 
> 
> All of the above are lower in frequency than [email protected], but the last two are higher than [email protected]
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Bob



bob do you think an 8 inch NEC or Marquee like mine can do the 1600+ vertical resolution(top to bottom)? On VDC's site for the marquee specs the have listed:

Greater than 2048 x 1536 pixel resolution, that might be pushing it.

And for blu ray sources i dont think you need to double the scan lines just

use 72Hz refresh rate.So 800 or 817 should be fine i'd think and it wouldnt add any weird scaling artifacts that may arise. Do you want to do this because your seeing scan lines? if thats the case you might be able to use 96Hz refresh rate at 800p or 817 with the same 1152 virticle(side to side).

But not sure if they have 96Hz refresh rate possible for 800p. that would be a nice feature.


Athanasios


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/14361925
> 
> 
> Rob, is this purely a firmware update to get this?



Yep


----------



## pkarmouche

Question:


I plan to have a PC be my only video source. Do issues remain with the C2-260 cards?


Or is two C2-2250a boxes currently the only viable option?


It seems to me the the video path is "cleaner" if it can all be handled within the PC instead of being split and passed in & out of two boxes.


Thanks,


Paul


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pkarmouche* /forum/post/14364277
> 
> 
> Question:
> 
> 
> I plan to have a PC be my only video source. Do issues remain with the C2-260 cards?
> 
> 
> Or is two C2-2250a boxes currently the only viable option?
> 
> 
> It seems to me the the video path is "cleaner" if it can all be handled within the PC instead of being split and passed in & out of two boxes.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Paul



Not sure what issues you mean ? The 260 cards have a maximumn bandwidth of 108Mhz before sub sampling occurs. The 2000A series units have overcome this limitiation.


Regards,


Rob


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pkarmouche* /forum/post/14364277
> 
> 
> Question:
> 
> 
> I plan to have a PC be my only video source. Do issues remain with the C2-260 cards?
> 
> 
> Or is two C2-2250a boxes currently the only viable option?
> 
> 
> It seems to me the the video path is "cleaner" if it can all be handled within the PC instead of being split and passed in & out of two boxes.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Paul



I was not able to get 1:1 pixel mapping with the C2-260 cards, plus it has analog inputs which are problematical by themselves, I also was not able to get 1920 horizontal pixels across 2 projectors even when I was not at 108 MHz bandwidth


I think with the DVI input and the higher supported bandwidth the C2-2250 is the product you want, two additional D/A and A/D steps are not a good thing and the C2-2250 should be a huge step forward for that reason alone.


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14357182
> 
> 
> What's next:
> 
> 
> 1 - First, I'm going to follow my own advice and redo greyscale, gamma, G2, etc.
> 
> 2 - The real power of the TVOne's is its Corio2 engine which has the capability of creating custom resolutions and refresh rates. I want to take advantage of this. I am waisting valuable bandwidth right now so I am going to feed my TVOne's with a [email protected] from my VP50Pro and set my outputs to [email protected] which should produce a noticable improvement. I might also try [email protected] to double the existing signal. This might be a little agressive for an 8", but for you lucky guys with two 9"ers, it should be easy!
> 
> 
> Thanks for your patience in my learning experience,
> 
> Bob




Bob,


thanks for the report, makes me want to have a look at these units, too










BTW: I think you are a little hard on the poor old XG's - they will certainly not go above 1055x1225 @72 and I do not think they should - you will soften up the picture too much and therefore I suggest 1055 x 1080 @72 for 16:9 - I think 1080 scan lines will not be a problem anymore from the seating position, maybe it is even possible to go with around 800 for scope movies.


Oliver





.


----------



## Oliver Klohs

@Rob,


can you please tell us if 1:1 pixel mapping is possible with the C2-22xx units ?

it will be nice for PC applications where remapping leads to a significant softening of the image.


Also is there a roadmap or timetable for other units with the improved bandwidth and DVI inputs ?


I think that some people might prefer to have a one box solution while other might be looking at a successor to the C2-260 cards.


Thanks !


Oliver


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14362107
> 
> 
> WOW! I'm running 12.4ftL's.
> 
> How high are you running your contrast - As I recall you're using one MP's mod that allows high contrast without blooming.
> 
> 
> Is your screen gain 1.0?
> 
> 
> Bob



Yes, being that the screen is so wide, unity gain really performs best. No colorshifting, best off axis response.


My contrast on the Marquee's is quite high, running in the 70's, MP's mods certainly help, but so do the Frankenyokes which allow super high contrast with minimal blooming.


----------



## Oliver Klohs

I am using a 14 ft curved screen at the moment and brightness is at 11 to 13ftl, depending on where I set the contrast - I expect nothing less from moving to a blending solution


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> bob do you think an 8 inch NEC or Marquee like mine can do the 1600+ vertical resolution(top to bottom)?



Probably would be a little soft looking - But we have lots of people who have 9" projectors that could do this in a walk.



> Quote:
> Greater than 2048 x 1536 pixel resolution, that might be pushing it.



It will not be 2048X1536 - it will be 1920X(various) - remember the blend zone. Also, each projector only sees 1152X(various), which is roughly 1/2 the bandwidth you are now using!



> Quote:
> So 800 or 817 should be fine i'd think and it wouldnt add any weird scaling artifacts that may arise.



I disagree - The two ratio's I suggest are 1.5 times the source and 2.0 times the source. These should be easy to do without artifacts. It is the same thing that we have been doing for years with conventional DVD's by scaling them to 720P and 960P with great success.

As a test, go ahead and set up the one projector that you have right now at 800 lines and run up the vertical gain until the picture fills the vertical space on your tubes. Reconverge it and you will be seeing scan lines from 10' away.



> Quote:
> BTW: I think you are a little hard on the poor old XG's - they will certainly not go above 1055x1225 @72 and I do not think they should - you will soften up the picture too much and therefore I suggest 1055 x 1080 @72 for 16:9 - I think 1080 scan lines will not be a problem anymore from the seating position, maybe it is even possible to go with around 800 for scope movies.



I agree with the [email protected] for 16:9 movies, but the 1225 is a more "natural" scaling of 2.35 than 1080 is. 1080 is forced upon digital projectors using CIH only because thats the amount of fixed pixels they have and the scaling of 817 to 1080 is not as good as 1225. Divide them and see what you get.


I also forgot the fine people in PAL-land. Please add the appropriate refresh rates of 50 and 75.


Hey - the wonderful advantage that the Corio2 technology offers us is the ability to do whatever we want.


Bob


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14364591
> 
> 
> I agree with the [email protected] for 16:9 movies, but the 1225 is a more "natural" scaling of 2.35 than 1080 is. 1080 is forced upon digital projectors using CIH only because thats the amount of fixed pixels they have and the scaling of 817 to 1080 is not as good as 1225. Divide them and see what you get.
> 
> 
> I also forgot the fine people in PAL-land. Please add the appropriate refresh rates of 50 and 75.
> 
> 
> Hey - the wonderful advantage that the Corio2 technology offers us is the ability to do whatever we want.
> 
> 
> Bob



While [email protected] is only 75% of the bandwidth needed for standard 1080p60 it is still closing in on the scan rate limit of your XG's which is 110kHz. I have used XG's before and with higher scanrates they got hotter and less stable, same with higher raster usage - now you are operating at maximum with both parameters - I am just a little worried for your 2 babies










As I am currently running 48 Hz I will definitely try that, too with a blend - should be much easier on the projectors. As I would be running 2 Barco 909 I am not so sure about scan line visibility at 800 lines for scope movies - I might have to experiment with oval astig










As you are talking of even multiples does that mean you already verified that you have 1:1 pixel mapping ? Without 1:1 pixel mapping even multiples would not be that important.


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/14364585
> 
> 
> I am using a 14 ft curved screen at the moment and brightness is at 11 to 13ftl, depending on where I set the contrast - I expect nothing less from moving to a blending solution



This is also dependant on your colour temp. If I drive tubes hard without regard for complete accuracy, I can get beyond 18ftL's set a lower contrast than I am using now.


What gain is your curved screen though? My 14ftL measurement is on unitygain, and I left it here as I felt this gave me the best possible picture without sacraficing other PQ parameters.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> While [email protected] is only 75% of the bandwidth needed for standard 1080p60 it is still closing in on the scan rate limit of your XG's which is 110kHz. I have used XG's before and with higher scanrates they got hotter and less stable, same with higher raster usage - now you are operating at maximum with both parameters - I am just a little worried for your 2 babies



Oliver,

I agree 100%. Scan rate and video frequency are totally separate. I also realize that my H.O.T. will run hotter (pun intended). But, while I am closer to it's design limit, I am still not there!

However, with the reduced video frequency I will have greater pixel to pixel contrast.

This is why I do not want to run refresh any higher than 72. I have never seen what 72 looks like in comparison to 60 as far as getting rid of 3:2 pulldown, so I'll have to make that judgement when I see it.



> Quote:
> As you are talking of even multiples does that mean you already verified that you have 1:1 pixel mapping ? Without 1:1 pixel mapping even multiples would not be that important.



I don't know - that is above my pay scale, but perhaps Rob can answer this for us. If I remember correctly, Joe Kane was quoted somewhere that he does not like the 1080 used in CIH.


Bob


----------



## nashou66

Bob and I have been trying to figure out what to call the TV-One units since the DiVentix crew calls theirs Blendzilla I think we need to use Godzillas arch rival in out name so I came up with *Rodan-O-Blend*. Any other Ideas?

I also had Cori-O-blend for the corio2 software that is the real magic of the Tv-One units.



Athanasios


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/14364714
> 
> 
> This is also dependant on your colour temp. If I drive tubes hard without regard for complete accuracy, I can get beyond 18ftL's set a lower contrast than I am using now.
> 
> 
> What gain is your curved screen though? My 14ftL measurement is on unitygain, and I left it here as I felt this gave me the best possible picture without sacraficing other PQ parameters.



I can also go above that and up to maybe 16 or 17, but I do not like to go below 6400k at 100IRE and I already use some blue defocus and do not want to use more.


My gain is a little above 3







, so the curve is absolutely necessary







- the screen is curved around the seating position and equidistant at all points in the horizontal axis to the ideal seating position. It is a test screen for a good HT friend who by the way also contemplates a blend.


So this is something that will not work out with a blend, that's for sure !


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I can also go above that and up to maybe 16 or 17,



Do you guys need to put on "sun-Block" before you watch a movie?


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/14364542
> 
> 
> @Rob,
> 
> 
> can you please tell us if 1:1 pixel mapping is possible with the C2-22xx units ?
> 
> it will be nice for PC applications where remapping leads to a significant softening of the image.
> 
> 
> Also is there a roadmap or timetable for other units with the improved bandwidth and DVI inputs ?
> 
> 
> I think that some people might prefer to have a one box solution while other might be looking at a successor to the C2-260 cards.
> 
> 
> Thanks !
> 
> 
> Oliver



Hi Oliver,

Yes this should be possible because of the bandwidth now availiable, one recent addition to the units is Advanced mode = Pixel for zoom and shrink this will allow you to specify an exact size for the input and then let the output be defined by the output resolution (set

out => output resolution). Rather than specifying a % zoom value.


Regards


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14362269
> 
> 
> Rob - Many thanks for your interest, and yes I have a list. It is all based on inputs of 1920X1080 at 24, 30 & 60 refresh for picture AR's of 1.78, 2.40 and 2.35.
> 
> 
> 1 - 1152X1225 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.35 AR CIH - is 1.5 times actual 817 lines of info
> 
> 2 - 1152X1200 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.40 AR CIH - is 1.5 times actual 800 lines
> 
> 3 - 1152X1080 @ 60 & 72 - for 1.78 AR CIH -
> 
> 4 - 1152X1600 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.40 AR CIH - is 2.0 times actual
> 
> 5 - 1152X1634 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.35 AR CIH - is 2.0 times actual
> 
> 
> The 1152 figure is based on a 10% blend which appears to be the most desired. It should be very close in total to the incoming 1920 after blending.
> 
> 
> All of the above are lower in frequency than [email protected], but the last two are higher than [email protected]
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Bob



Thats not too bad a list







anyone else care to comment ?


Rob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14362269
> 
> 
> Rob - Many thanks for your interest, and yes I have a list. It is all based on inputs of 1920X1080 at 24, 30 & 60 refresh for picture AR's of 1.78, 2.40 and 2.35.
> 
> 
> 1 - 1152X1225 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.35 AR CIH - is 1.5 times actual 817 lines of info
> 
> 2 - 1152X1200 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.40 AR CIH - is 1.5 times actual 800 lines
> 
> 3 - 1152X1080 @ 60 & 72 - for 1.78 AR CIH -
> 
> 4 - 1152X1600 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.40 AR CIH - is 2.0 times actual
> 
> 5 - 1152X1634 @ 60 & 72 - for 2.35 AR CIH - is 2.0 times actual
> 
> 
> The 1152 figure is based on a 10% blend which appears to be the most desired. It should be very close in total to the incoming 1920 after blending.
> 
> 
> All of the above are lower in frequency than [email protected], but the last two are higher than [email protected]
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Bob





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/14368690
> 
> 
> Thats not too bad a list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anyone else care to comment ?
> 
> 
> Rob



I think the 1152x800/817 should also be added for 60hz,72,90,96.


Athanasios


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14364734
> 
> 
> I don't know - that is above my pay scale,



Bob,


you walk the walk and are the first guy here who has this up and running so my hats off to you !



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14367759
> 
> 
> Do you guys need to put on "sun-Block" before you watch a movie?












Nah, I am keeping it at around 11 to 12 as I said, but it is nice to go above that a little for darker movies - there would be no harm in cranking the contrast a little for Dark City for example.


Oliver


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/14368690
> 
> 
> Thats not too bad a list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anyone else care to comment ?
> 
> 
> Rob




Rob,


I have a request that goes more towards being able to create and store my own custom resolutions.


I am not that much for presets and would like to be able to input resolution/refresh rate combos like 1056 x 1080 @ 47.95 myself and I also want to be able to store at least 4, better even 8 of them. Also it would be very good to be able to input exact numbers for everything instead of having to use sliders, don't know if that is already the case.


And thanks for the info on the advanced mode, that should do the trick for 1:1 pixel mapping.


Oliver


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/14371501
> 
> 
> Rob,
> 
> 
> I have a request that goes more towards being able to create and store my own custom resolutions.
> 
> 
> I am not that much for presets and would like to be able to input resolution/refresh rate combos like 1056 x 1080 @ 47.95 myself and I also want to be able to store at least 4, better even 8 of them. Also it would be very good to be able to input exact numbers for everything instead of having to use sliders, don't know if that is already the case.
> 
> 
> And thanks for the info on the advanced mode, that should do the trick for 1:1 pixel mapping.
> 
> 
> Oliver



The resolution tool can be found here http://www.tvone.com/tech_support_software.shtml 

that will allow you to create as many custom resolutions as you like and should then do the job you are asking. However make sure you use it via a serial port to the unit rather than with ethernet. Also make sure you read all the resolutions first before you start to add in new ones







then you can add another ~890 resolutions.


Rob


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/14365147
> 
> 
> Bob and I have been trying to figure out what to call the TV-One units since the DiVentix crew calls theirs Blendzilla I think we need to use Godzillas arch rival in out name so I came up with *Rodan-O-Blend*. Any other Ideas?
> 
> I also had Cori-O-blend for the corio2 software that is the real magic of the Tv-One units.
> 
> 
> 
> Athanasios



hahahaha I like that







Rodan-O-Blend gets my vote... He's only occasionally the enemy of Godzilla which holds true... we all get along well really










Regards


Rob


----------



## Boilermaker

Rob,


Since you are kind enough to listen to us analog die-hards, and since you apparently will be developing a new software upgrade, I have a couple of items that I would like to share with you. Both of these items have to do with making it easier to do the geometric setup with crt projectors. I do not think either of these will have any negative effects on the setup of digital projectors, but that is certainly your call:


1 - In your "Keyers" menu where your helpful two guidelines are controlled there are three selections - "on", "off" and "auto". "Auto" is described as being on when you are in the "Keyers" menu only. Actually what happens is that if you turn "off" blending elsewhere in the "keyers" menu, the guidelines also turn off.


Unlike digital projectors which have a fixed geometry, the only thing fixed about a crt's geometry is the setup person. Therefore, it is necessary to use an external geometric grid of some sort to do this. This requires that blending be turned off so that the externally generated grid can be seen in the blend zone. If the TVOne's two guidelines were still "on" with blending turned "off", then both patterns would be seen. Your guidelines can still be turned "off" if necessary.


2 - The TVOne guidelines which mark the outer edge of the picture and the beginning of the blendzone are colored red and green respectively. This allows geometry to be set up such that when everything is perfect, the lines from each projector coincide and the result is two yellow lines.

The problem that crt projectors have is that in their setup, the green geometry is the baseline and is done first with both red and blue guns turned off. When green is done, then blue and red and superimposed on top of the green.

Since green is the baseline, it is difficult to converge a green line on top of another green line.


If you were to add another menu item labeled something like "gridline color reverse" which would reverse the colors of TVOne's gridlines, then it would be easier to "converge" the green on top of the red. Default setting would obviously be as you have them now.


Please let me know if any of this doesn't make sense, and I appreciate your consideration.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

Rob not to be a nag but ii think you skipped over this post of mine








http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=386 


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14371601
> 
> 
> Therefore, it is necessary to use an external geometric grid of some sort to do this. This requires that blending be turned off so that the externally generated grid can be seen in the blend zone. If the TVOne's two guidelines were still "on" with blending turned "off", then both patterns would be seen. Your guidelines can still be turned "off" if necessary.



Set edge bend to "ON"


Set guidelines to "ON"


Set blend zone to "ZERO"







.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Set edge bend to "ON"
> 
> 
> Set guidelines to "ON"
> 
> 
> Set blend zone to "ZERO"




Thanks Andy! Never tried that.


Rob - Please eliminate #1 above.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/14371585
> 
> 
> The resolution tool can be found here http://www.tvone.com/tech_support_software.shtml
> 
> that will allow you to create as many custom resolutions as you like and should then do the job you are asking. However make sure you use it via a serial port to the unit rather than with ethernet. Also make sure you read all the resolutions first before you start to add in new ones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then you can add another ~890 resolutions.
> 
> 
> Rob



Thanks Rob, that sounds OK - 890 extra resolution settings should just barely be enough


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/14361120
> 
> 
> Ain't that the truth!!!
> 
> 
> Nice to see you back Rob And Keep up the good work. I think the res sets that Boilmaker is using would be a good start. We mostly want a nice res set for blending 2.35/2.40 and 1.78 aspects being able to either double the actually scaned area of the image. Since blu ray is 1080p but the actual area of the scope movie is either 800 or 817 so its more like 1920x817 for 2.35 aspect ratio, this also frees up more bandwidth for the VP and the PJ.
> 
> 
> Also have you done any thing with adding a global 11 point gamma to the units so we can adjust gamma for each PJ individualy and do away with out non Blending scaler to take care of it. One less pice of gear will always be nice. So we will still gave the gamma for the blend zone but add another "global" gamma so we can adjust it at 11 points of the IRE from 0-100 IRE.Some type of Color correction for the primaries with the same 11 points would be very cool too!
> 
> 
> And for a new product that I think would help the Home theater and the comercial market for those who use two blending units would be a input switcher with varying inputs(HDMI,Component, S Video Composite, and maybe HD/SD SDI) that has two mirroring outputs so we can send the same signal to each unit. this would further eliminate the need for another scaler. this would need no scaling functions just a swhitcher of high bandwidth with two identical outputs. And some this switcher cold be controld by one of the units that would be made the Mater unit only for switching the Input Switcher.
> 
> 
> Sound like a good idea? the add on input devises you now have are only good for a single unit.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



The Gamma tabels in he scaler are already programmable







we just havent released the code to allow them to be programmed - we haven't written it !

There is unfortunatly no time scale for this yet.


We do get asked for input switchers with loop through but really haven't seen a big enough market for them at this time - is that the type of product you mean ?


Regards


Rob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/14381478
> 
> 
> The Gamma tabels in he scaler are already programmable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we just havent released the code to allow them to be programmed - we haven't written it !
> 
> There is unfortunatly no time scale for this yet.
> 
> 
> We do get asked for input switchers with loop through but really haven't seen a big enough market for them at this time - is that the type of product you mean ?
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Rob



Not sure what you mean by loop through, It be more like a switcher and a splitter in one unit. With different inputs for different types of connections that can be output to two displays/C2-2000 series units.


Athanasios


----------



## TVOneEngineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/14381990
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean by loop through, It be more like a switcher and a splitter in one unit. With different inputs for different types of connections that can be output to two displays/C2-2000 series units.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Oh I see, a switcher with a built in Distribution amplifier to give 2 outputs. Would it need to be a seamless switcher?


Regards


Rob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/14389760
> 
> 
> Oh I see, a switcher with a built in Distribution amplifier to give 2 outputs. Would it need to be a seamless switcher?
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Rob



No it wouldn't have to be for the home theater market, but if you wanted to sell them for your commercial customers who might not be able to afford the dual output C2-7000 series an inexpensive dual output switcher that could do it seamlessly would be awesome for them . It would have to do nothing to the signal and just pass it trough to the 2 C2 -2000 series units with no signal degrading . This would be good for those who do not need to have a single unit like the C2-7200.

For the CRT crowd getting the C2-2250 closer to the PJ is better for Pic quality keeping the cable from the processor to PJ as short as possible. keeping the switcher in the equipment rack near the source's and having the blend units near the PJ's would be appealing to most i would think, especially because of the nice small size of the C2-2250A's size.


Oh And I know this is much more work however, I think for the commercial market where the Apple Mac is the most user friendly graphics based computer it be great to make a Mac version of the control software for the C2-xxxx units, with all the advancement in compatablitty between Windows and OS-X it should be possible with some time of course. I am sure you probably have had request from some of your commercial customers.




Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Set edge bend to "ON"
> 
> 
> Set guidelines to "ON"
> 
> 
> Set blend zone to "ZERO" .




Andy - I tried this and as soon as the zone was set to "0", the lines disappeared. Correct me if wrong, but when you said "set blend zone to zero" you were talking about in the "Keyers" menu, right?

If yours works like this, then mine have an issue.


Actually, I don't see why you can't have the lines anytime you turn them"on" and you have a zone defined. When you are done, you can always turn them"off".


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Gino AUS

The blendzilla has it so that you can have the guidlines on or off with the soft edge blending on or off.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14392863
> 
> 
> Andy - I tried this and as soon as the zone was set to "0", the lines disappeared. Correct me if wrong, but when you said "set blend zone to zero" you were talking about in the "Keyers" menu, right?
> 
> If yours works like this, then mine have an issue.
> 
> 
> Actually, I don't see why you can't have the lines anytime you turn them"on" and you have a zone defined. When you are done, you can always turn them"off".
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



they dont turn off its just that they are now not needed since there is no blendzone when you have it set to zero, he said to do it this way most likely so you can converge the two PJ grids with no faded blend area, once you have the grids lined up in where the blend zone woul;d be you make the blend zone 5% again and the blend zone lines reapear. I think they have it this way for mostly for a digital set up where you can physicaly move the PJ much easier to get it into the right position for the blend instead of using the geometry contols of the PJ like we would for our CRt's. Not 100% sure on this tho.


Athanaisos


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I think they have it this way for mostly for a digital set up where you can physicaly move the PJ much easier to get it into the right position for the blend instead of using the geometry contols of the PJ like we would for our CRt's. Not 100% sure on this tho.



I agree, but it makes what could be a very easy task a pita. I'm sure this would be an easy fix that would still have no negative effect on setup of digital projectors - Right Rob?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> ( B ) ( G ) ( R ) BlendZilla DownUnder ( R ) ( G ) ( B )



Gino - I just noticed the order of your colors - Does that mean you have swapped rad and blue on one of your projectors? That was my intention, but as I was retubing the second one, I just absolutely forgot to do it!


Bob


----------



## Gino AUS

That's right Bob. I found that the tubes closer to the blend focussed better. Red being more important than blue, I chose to put reds at centre. Also, colour uniformity seems to be easier this way.


----------



## nashou66

This sucks we lost a week of posts !!! i cant even remember what I posted!!!Of Rob posted the stuff about features we all wanted the posts by bob for blend zone stuff. Arrggg!!!!!!!!


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH

Forget the past..........


TVONE is the Future







.


(Yeah, its a shame about the database loss here but cant do anything about it, I am sure AVS are more annoyed than we are............. Back to the FUTURE with TVONE







)


----------



## MadMrH

The ENTIRE stock from TVONE shipped out today to me







.


ON TIME







, Thank you Guys.


----------



## Gino AUS

Awesome, glad to join the club


----------



## overclkr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/14426434
> 
> 
> Awesome, glad to join the club



Looking foward to your impressions vs. the DVX.


----------



## pavlin

hello ,


i would like to know how to get video signal from crystalio2 to 2 tvone C2-2250A units . would one of the following solutions be good :
http://msn.pricegrabber.com/user_sal...lot_id=7344532 
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=5723 


thx.

grega


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> i would like to know how to get video signal from crystalio2 to 2 tvone C2-2250A units



I am using the Gefen with no problems at all.


Bob


----------



## TVOneEngineer

Hi Guys,

Just a quick update on the HDCP firmware update... was going to release it as a beta to you all but holidays have got in the way, we will be back on it next week - ill post a link when it ready to be played with. For those who don't know ... HDCP is a pain in the







. and you would be amazed how many bit of kit that we have tested that don't follow the HDCP specification ! Nightmare !


Rob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOneEngineer* /forum/post/13889215
> 
> 
> Well the max output is the limit of single link DVI, so 162Mhz. However we got our new wizzy display port monitor this week which will do insane resolutions, so we tested the output to see how far we could over clock the DVI transmitter and we managed about 200Mhz before it fell over :-D this could be the point at which the screens DVI decoder couldn't handle the over clocking. So in summary the offical max output will be any resolution up to 162Mhz, but I managed to get 1080P85 - but that may have been luck !
> 
> *Initially the control are the same as on the current 2000 series but we are looking at making the S Curve custom and the individual R & G & B gamma curves custom too, but that will be a later free firmware update.
> *
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Rob



I cant wait for this feature, the individuaql gamma controls for each color, I hope it will be 11 or 21 point,


Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/14480802
> 
> 
> I cant wait for this feature, the individuaql gamma controls for each color, I hope it will be 11 or 21 point,
> 
> 
> Athanasios



So long as it is done in a high enough bit space, would hate to see banding/posterization.


Any plan for adjusting grey scale? CMS?


----------



## antorsae

If I understand correctly you will have some level of posterization if you end up in an 8-bit colorspace. I think you will take DVI out of the TV-ONE and then feed the Moome card, correct?


The gamma boost in the moome card does not give any posterization b/c it is done in the analog domain, but since there is no support to send 10-bit color over DVI, some posterization may still occur if you do gamma processing and output 8-bit signals.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *antorsae* /forum/post/14482487
> 
> 
> If I understand correctly you will have some level of posterization if you end up in an 8-bit colorspace. I think you will take DVI out of the TV-ONE and then feed the Moome card, correct?
> 
> 
> The gamma boost in the moome card does not give any posterization b/c it is done in the analog domain, but since there is no support to send 10-bit color over DVI, some posterization may still occur if you do gamma processing and output 8-bit signals.



I think if they do as in the Lumagen's then we should be ok as I have not seen that problem with the lumies.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Andy - You should have the new 2250A's by now - Have you tried them yet?


Bob


----------



## Boilermaker

When TVOne has the next firmware update, I will start playing with better resolution/refresh settings to maximize my PQ. Since there will not be blend zone/individual color adjustments on this next firmware update, I want to try something a little different on grey scale adjustments that maybe you "Blenders" have already tried.


Since matching the blend zone is so critical, I am going to set up my sensor in the blend zone instead of centered on each projector. Does this sound stupid to you guys???


Bob


----------



## Gino AUS

I set up grey scale through centre, and use contrast modulation so that result is uniform across screen. This means that the blendzone should be very close to what you calibrate on centre for each anyway.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I set up grey scale through centre, and use contrast modulation



That's cool! How many zones are there through modulation, and is it just contrast?


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/14510422
> 
> 
> I set up grey scale through centre, and use contrast modulation so that result is uniform across screen. This means that the blendzone should be very close to what you calibrate on centre for each anyway.



So you suggest using contrast modulation boards then, i dont have one on my one set, as in the maintenece thread mike says to ditch it or was it a color board? are they one and the same?


Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS

I have found that what compromises supposedly are made to the image by having the CMM in are negligible when it comes to the benefit of being able to have uniformity across the screen, and makes blending a whole lot easier.


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14510641
> 
> 
> That's cool! How many zones are there through modulation, and is it just contrast?



Yes, it only affects contrast but your eyes are much more sensitive to colour here anyway compared to the low end.


You can adjust 9 zones.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/14514098
> 
> 
> I have found that what compromises supposedly are made to the image by having the CMM in are negligible when it comes to the benefit of being able to have uniformity across the screen, and makes blending a whole lot easier.



So it looks like I need to get another board, maybe a spare too.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Rob - Do you have a tentative date for a firmware update - I'm getting antsy!



Gino - Are you close to setting up your pair of these yet?



Bob


----------



## Gino AUS

Not yet, I have just sent over the customs clearance forms and paid the import duties and taxes, so they should be releasing them to me soon. I suspect they will arrive while I'm in Spain. I hope they have released the FW update by the time I return.


----------



## nashou66

Hi Guys, I just had two Visitors from TV-One stop by and visit me at my diner. Very nice guys, Steve told me that Rob has been working hard on the latest firmwear and it should be done soon. Dont ask me how soon but i would say before december. HDCP is a pain !!


I also Asked them about a dual output video switcher and they said they once had it on the Project table but scraped it as they thought it wouldnt be need much, but now i shed some new uses and light on why it be great for a combo package with their single chip blend units. Lets hope they do it ! They Are really a bunch of great guys, lets hope they keep up the good work and listen to our wish lists.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

I was thinking that the HDCP issue would be a pita. If I have time this weekend, I'm going ahead with playing with resolutions/refresh rates.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## MadMrH

Hi,


I have major project completion in the next few days, TVONE are working on the HDCP firmware, I will check in the next few days how this is going.


Andy.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> TVONE are working on the HDCP firmware, I will check in the next few days how this is going.



Andy - When you speak with them, please try to find out what else they will be doing besides the HDCP BS.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## MadMrH

Hi,


They are doing a European show at the mo, So I have not bothered them this week.


There are other ideas that they are working on that I have mentioned, MOST of my ideas are blend related, but not all of them..............


There will be other requests from other clients,


My work allows me to use many products in the AV field, My work is mainly bespoke and always pushing boundaries so for me suggestions for improvements are part of my working day.


----------



## nashou66

Andy Are they considering the Apple Software we talked briefly about? And Try to get them to reconsider a source switcher with two mirrored outs for use with a blend unit, maybe even a unit where you can buy secondary add on boards to expand it to 3,4, outs for multi blend systems for commercial use.


Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS

Any idea if these units support HDMI 1.3 spec?


Mine have arrived in Australia, so will play with them when I return, but will likely wait until the HDCP issue is sorted.


Andy, is it yet possible to define your own custom blend curve?


Is it yet possible to do individual blend curves for each colour?


----------



## MadMrH

Quick Note,


I expect to be able to send HDCP based firmware to people around Monday of next week.


Gino, I will check on your questions I have sent all available units to customers so mine will be with me in about 3 weeks (Unless I sell them as well!)


Andy.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I expect to be able to send HDCP based firmware to people around Monday of next week.



Andy - Do you expect any other changes besides HDCP?


Bob


----------



## Gino AUS

Andy, if I setup my blend with the TVOne units as is at my desired resolution and frame rates, will changing the firmware require me to do another setup or minor touch ups or everything will be fine?


Does anyone here think there is merit in doing 96Hz progressive?


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14723974
> 
> 
> Andy - Do you expect any other changes besides HDCP?
> 
> 
> Bob



This firmware will be specific to the HDCP , BUT always working towards new ideas / concepts. As I dont have my 2 series units yet I have not been able to look for additions required. (but YES there are always new ideas being worked on







thats how the "A" range started







.......)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/14727594
> 
> 
> Andy, if I setup my blend with the TVOne units as is at my desired resolution and frame rates, will changing the firmware require me to do another setup or minor touch ups or everything will be fine?
> 
> 
> Does anyone here think there is merit in doing 96Hz progressive?



Hi Gino,


When you set the custom res you should load to the units and then save your setting.


ALL firmware updates reset the units to default, So SAVE your res settings with res editor and also your settings in the C2 unit from the Corio control software - PLEASE NOTE the software may not save every setting.


In order to push the firmware updates as quick as possible the software is usually behind the firmware, so new items added in the firmware may need manual settings after a firmware update - I am happy to accept this as it means the firmware updates are frequent.


Andy.


----------



## MadMrH

Gino,


RE : 96Hz ?


As you increase the refresh rate you reduce intensity of the tubes


Not sure if this is visible to the eye or not.


I will try 96Hz in about a month I hope, but for now I am very happy with 72.


For me running 72 is smooth and good focus, again with increase reduces focus........


That sais there are those that watch at 48, and I dont like that so each to his own............


----------



## Gino AUS

Just opened up the boxes, do I need to connect these units together with some sort of cable?


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/14728221
> 
> 
> Just opened up the boxes, do I need to connect these units together with some sort of cable?



No you adjust each one individually , it is basiclly the same on the all in one units each chip has its own controls IIRC.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> do I need to connect these units together with some sort of cable?



Gino - you will obviously need an active HDMI/DVI splitter of some sort to get the input to both units. If you wish, you can also split the analog output of one of them and send it to the analog input of the second unit to "GenLock" the two. I have tried it both ways, and can see no difference. If there is any slight timing difference, it is much faster than my eyes can see.


While I have you, I have a couple of questions.

1 - What resolution/refresh are you going to try first?

2 - When you were in Spain you tried an 8% blend. Was there some special reason for this, or were you just experimenting?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Gino AUS

Hi Bob, I was thinking of trying [email protected] for cinemascope. I've chosen 1248 for a 15% overlap.


We did 8% at Andres' place because his projectors were already ceiling mounted and that was as close together as we could get them without having to remount.


----------



## Boilermaker

Gino - Are you taking your BluRay directly to the TVOne's or are you going through a scaler first?

If you are going through a scaler, what output resolution are you using from the scaler?


Bob


----------



## MadMrH

Firmware update for the 7200 units has been released and is on the site. (although I think thats only me with one!)


The NEW 2xxxA series units now have the BETA HDCP firmware available for them.


I will send PM's to all about this in the next 24 ish hours.


TVONE are just testing an area setup for feedback about this beta.


It will be good for people to confirm items that work or any issues that are found.


ALL of that info should be placed directly on the TVONE site and NOT here on AVS, that way TVONE can track and respond as required.



So check your PM boxes in the next day or so..............If I miss anyone then please PM me to remind me.


----------



## nashou66

Andy you have my e-mail add me to your firmware list please










Athanasios


----------



## Oliver Klohs

Andy,


that is great news, but the firmware upgrade brings up a few questions in itself and I will also use the occasion to ask a few more questions that popped up during my first hours with the TV One units and to report my findings so far:


Will the settings be left intact with the frimware update ?

Can I revert to the older firmware if problems arise ?

Is there any way yet that I can back up all my settings through the software ?



And on another note I have a few questions regarding general usability which if not implented yet would also be feature requests of mine:


With a given output resolution is there an option to to have a preset to get a 16:9 picture in the middle of my scope screen ? I find myself wanting this quite a bit with a lot of Blu-Rays that have popup menues that are mostly in the lower black bars.


Regarding the RS232 control: I think I would prefer to use that if the adjustments allowed as fine a granularity as with setting everything on the units themselves, at the moment this is not possible however and the adjustments are only possible in jumps, for example for setting a blend zone parameter I have a slider that takes me for example from 182 to 191, whereas at the unit itself I can adjust in steps of 1, on the PC I could never get to a value of 184 at the moment so the usability of the software is very low at the moment.


What is the recommended setting of the deinterlacer so that it leaves progressive sources untouched ? I have been using "auto" so far but it would be nice to have some kind of "off" setting to know the deinterlacer is not doing anything.


Now regarding my tests so far:


I can happily report that *I was successful achieving 1:1 pixel mapping to my source of 1920 x 820p 23,976 and taking it to 1920 x 820p 71,928







*

With regard to flawless pans and judder free motion this setup looked as good as anything I have seen before and then some due to the higher resolution and light output achieved and due to the higher ANSI contrast that comes with such a setup.

I went back to a single projector on the same screen and it seemed dim to me - at 12 fL !


It was very easy to arrive at a seamless blendzone at higher IRE's, lower IRE's still have the blend zone showing up and I will have to adjust for that.

As my preliminary tests were mainly for artefacts with 24 Hz sources and 1:1 pixel mapping I did not do that much about the blend zone but so far I like very much what I have been seeing and I will continue my tests on another screen and with different projectors










Oliver


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14734841
> 
> 
> Gino - Are you taking your BluRay directly to the TVOne's or are you going through a scaler first?
> 
> If you are going through a scaler, what output resolution are you using from the scaler?



Bob - I'll be going through the Lumagen Radiance first, so I can connect more sources, and gain the benefits of custom gamma, CMS and perfect greyscale and colorimetry.


For BD sources, I plan on going native, so if the source is 1080p24, I'll be using that, and I'm hoping that the frame interpolation feature to get to 72 will work very well. IF it does, I'll be getting rid of my VP50Pro from the chain.


How does aspect ratio control work with these things?


----------



## MadMrH

HI, Some more Answers,
Will the settings be left intact with the frimware update ?
Firmware updates use default settings - Most settings are saved in the setup file, So you load new firmware, load resolution file, load setting file.


Can I revert to the older firmware if problems arise ?
Yes


Is there any way that I can back up all my settings through the software ?
Most settings are saved, new firmware features are brought to you as quick as possible so the software will not be up to speed with new settings.


With a given output resolution is there an option to to have a preset to get a 16:9 picture?
On the 7200 I use PRESET recalls for this, used to use macro prior to presets being available. I am not sure on the 2000 units as mine is being built...........


RS232 control: I think I would prefer to use that if the adjustments allowed as fine a granularity as with setting everything on the units themselves.
This is already on the feature request list


What is the recommended setting of the deinterlacer so that it leaves progressive sources untouched ? I have been using "auto" so far but it would be nice to have some kind of "off" setting to know the deinterlacer is not doing anything.
Request placed for "off" state.


Does 22xxA series support HDMI 1.3 spec?
The HDMI Chip is 1.3 Compatible, The scaler doesn't support 1.3 features such as deep color.


Is it yet possible to define your own custom blend curve?
Is it yet possible to do individual blend curves for each colour?
These are both on a feature request list, Waiting time frame.


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/14749583
> 
> 
> [*]Does 22xxA series support HDMI 1.3 spec?
> The HDMI Chip is 1.3 Compatible, The scaler doesn't support 1.3 features such as deep color.



So then what does it support from 1.3 exactly?


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> How does aspect ratio control work with these things?



I don't know as I use my VP50Pro for AR control.




> Quote:
> Bob - I'll be going through the Lumagen Radiance first, so I can connect more sources, and gain the benefits of custom gamma, CMS and perfect greyscale and colorimetry.



Gino - I would give anything for that flexibility! The only problem is that is would take two Lumagen's to do it. I can't wait until TVOne supplies this feature set.


Bob


----------



## Boilermaker

It was very easy to arrive at a seamless blendzone at higher IRE's, lower IRE's still have the blend zone showing up and I will have to adjust for that.Oliver - This is interesting, because I had just the opposite - High IRE's were my problem.


I'm not sure It's the best way to do it, but I used the signal generator in my VP50Pro to do all adjustments. I set up my sensor in the blend zone and set my G2's, 100IRE values, color temp and gray scale by just turning off the blend and getting a match.


BTW - what res. are you runnig?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## antorsae

Are you using Moome gamma correction?


If I understand correctly the TV-ONE has a numeric setting for the blend zone, i.e. gamma for each projector.


I think it would be very nice to upload a custom blend function to the TV-ONEs. The problem with a numeric gammas is that it is very difficult to get an ideal numeric gamma at all IREs on all three channels (e.g. 2.22) on a real CRT, and even more so if you are using gamma correction (hence the problem with the low-end IREs).


----------



## overclkr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/14749494
> 
> 
> Bob - I'll be going through the Lumagen Radiance first, so I can connect more sources, and gain the benefits of custom gamma, CMS and perfect greyscale and colorimetry.
> 
> 
> For BD sources, I plan on going native, so if the source is 1080p24, I'll be using that, and I'm hoping that the frame interpolation feature to get to 72 will work very well. IF it does, I'll be getting rid of my VP50Pro from the chain.
> 
> 
> How does aspect ratio control work with these things?



Big dog, there is something coming soon for the VP50Pro that I think will you might want to keep it.










Cliff


----------



## Oliver Klohs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/14751515
> 
> 
> It was very easy to arrive at a seamless blendzone at higher IRE's, lower IRE's still have the blend zone showing up and I will have to adjust for that.
> 
> 
> Oliver - This is interesting, because I had just the opposite - High IRE's were my problem.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure It's the best way to do it, but I used the signal generator in my VP50Pro to do all adjustments. I set up my sensor in the blend zone and set my G2's, 100IRE values, color temp and gray scale by just turning off the blend and getting a match.
> 
> 
> BTW - what res. are you runnig?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



Bob,


I did not try around a lot with the blend zones as this was not my primary focus - I only adjusted them so that I could check the other stuff without getting annoyed by an overly visible bendzone.


I am using 1920 x 820 at 72 Hz


Oliver


----------



## Oliver Klohs

Andy,


thanks for your answers, I have only two remarks that have to do with you not yet knowing the 2250A units so you can hardly know this yet:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/14749583
> 
> 
> [*]Is there any way that I can back up all my settings through the software ?
> Most settings are saved, new firmware features are brought to you as quick as possible so the software will not be up to speed with new settings.



At the moment the C2 control panel does not allow me to name and backup my settings as a file to some place on my harddrive, this is how I think we would ultimately want this to be implemtented and it would be nice if it included the resolution settings.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/14749583
> 
> 
> [*]With a given output resolution is there an option to to have a preset to get a 16:9 picture?
> On the 7200 I use PRESET recalls for this, used to use macro prior to presets being available. I am not sure on the 2000 units as mine is being built...........



Please have a look yourself when you get the unit but as of now it seems to be I cannot switch between either output resolutions or aspect ratios at the switch of a button.

So far the 1.31 control panel lacks a lot of features for the 2000A series that are allready implemented for your unit.


I am also curious as to how one would do the switching to different output resolutions via presets - is this possible via front panel and IR ?


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I am also curious as to how one would do the switching to different output resolutions via presets - is this possible via front panel and IR ?



Oliver, you can change output resolutions and refresh from the front panel by going into the menu which takes about 20 seconds for each one.

The IR remote is for all purposes useless.


Bob


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *overclkr* /forum/post/14752188
> 
> 
> Big dog, there is something coming soon for the VP50Pro that I think will you might want to keep it.



Spill the beans!


----------



## MadMrH

2000A series offical release with HDCP can be found here

http://tvone.crmdesk.com/answer.aspx?id=186 


Sorry not been around I am in Hospital tomorrow...........


I did email links to the beta firmware at the weekend but it seems most bounced back.



Oliver - I dont have the C2 software infront of me but I save and name a settings file, I also save and name a resolution file, curently these are two seperate files.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/14783734
> 
> 
> 2000A series offical release with HDCP can be found here
> 
> http://tvone.crmdesk.com/answer.aspx?id=186
> 
> *Sorry not been around I am in Hospital tomorrow...........*
> 
> 
> I did email links to the beta firmware at the weekend but it seems most bounced back.
> 
> 
> 
> Oliver - I dont have the C2 software infront of me but I save and name a settings file, I also save and name a resolution file, curently these are two seperate files.




Andy i hope everything is Ok, my best wishes for a fast recovery.


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH

Thank you,


2 weeks till stiches out, and then back into hospital for another op







.


Old age catching up on me at 36 !!!


Good thing is I will have more time to watch films as I recover







.


Andy.


----------



## anthonycrove

Thanks for all ur suggestions....


----------



## Gino AUS

Any news on how the hdcp beta firmware performs? Wondering if I should try it or just wait


----------



## TVOneEngineer

No reports of any incompatibility as of yet







The released firmware can be found here ...

http://tvone.crmdesk.com/answer.aspx?id=186 


Just let us know on the support site if you have any problems


regards


Rob


----------



## Boilermaker

OK - I'm a ditz!


I have finally decided to add some custom resolutions to my TVOne's using the "resolution calculator tool" available on their website and referred to earlier in this thread. For some reason (probably simple) I can't get it to work.

I am using a USB to 9-pin serial adapter to my laptop - I enter the resolution and refresh rate that I want in the appropriate places and then click on "create new".

Nothing happens.


Do I need to set up the menu in some particular way before I do this, or am I doing something else wrong?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

Some of those usb to serial cables are flakey, it also might need a null serial cable , or not. I am sure it might be in the cable. But you can do it Bob right on the front panels. I havnt looked at mine since I got it but thats how I did it.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> But you can do it Bob right on the front panels



Thanks - I didn't even look for that - I assumed it needed the software. I'll give it a try this afternoon after the football games.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Boilermaker

Athanasios - I gave it a quick look and could not see anyplace in the menu to create new resolutions. Is there someplace in the manual I can look, or can you remember where it is in the menu?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Boilermaker

Found it ! Page 43.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## MadMrH

Hi,


I am away from my kit at the mo.....so from memory.....


Load the resolution creator, use the same cable you use for the corio control software, MAKE SURE you dont have corio control software running, otherwise both software try to use the same port,


Load the resolution table from the unit into your pc / resolution software.


Crate your new resolution, this will be added to the END of the list,


Then save back into the unit.


You could save a resolution table into the unit with only the resolutions you require but I find it best to keep all the originals as well, or at least some full screen options rather than just those needed for blending.


IF you are going to save just those that you need make sure you load into the software all original settings and save, just in case you need them







.


----------



## Boilermaker

Andy - I have never used the corio control software - just used the front joystick as all my inputs and AR control are done with a VP50Pro for convenience. I tried the adapter that I use for VP50Pro updates, but it will not work. What do you use that works?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Boilermaker

Well, since I couldn't get communications with corio to my pc, I decided to go ahead and just enter the data directly from the front panel.


Using the resolution calculator tool to calculate the values, I entered 1152 X 1080 @ 59.94 Hz and it gave me the following:


H Width = 1152

V height = 1080

H freq. = 67.126KHz

H Total = 1552

V Total = 1121

H Sync = 128

V Sync = 10

H Pos = 200

V Pos = 3



I used an existing resolution that I knew I would never use to modify with the above entries.


Everything worked just fine for the first (left) projector, but when I did the right one, the picture image is slightly taller than the red outline. I can use the amplitude and position controls on the projector, but I only have a choice to have either a slice of the top of the picture or the bottom to be missing.


I checked that all my inputs were the same for both blenders.


Any ideas or suggestions??


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## MadMrH

Greetings from VEGAS







.


IF I assume that you have both blend units identical then the Projectors are slightly different.


So you can use the Shrink control on the right TVONE unit


(If you think both PJ's are the same then you may have missed something in the blender?)




To connect to the TVONE units you use a RS232 (9pin) lead, if it does not work first time then you use a "null modem" adaptor. This is a standard item and reverses pins 2 and 3 in the 9 pin connection.


The software gives a better overall visual display of all the settings, and means you can save one group of settings and push that into the other unit.


PLEASE NOTE : The software is often behind the current firmware, this is so the firmware can be kept as up to date as possible and advances get to users quickly, Everything you need is in/on the unit, I am one of the few who uses the software but that is just because that is what I do daily with AV system setups and intergration. So may not suit everyone.


----------



## coachbobby

I have been considering a blend with two 9 inch CRTs and I have some questions.


How difficult is this procedure with the TVone unit?

How many hours will need to be spent after both projectors have been calibrated?


I will be blending on a 12 foot wide screen. So each projector will be producing an image of 7 feet wide with a one foot blend zone. Is this correct? Can I start calibrating the projectors and mounting prior to recieving the TVone unit?



Thanks Bobby


----------



## nashou66

welcome Bobby. yes yuo can set up the PJ before hand but it be best to do a floor set up and play with it all that way, then you can decide on best location and distance depending on how you set up the raster and so forth. you could start ahead thogh if you know for sure that your location is fine but the final blend zone might be different than what you set it up as now so you might not get the maximum use of the tube if you set up and the blend zone is too large. with the Tv-one units you could use just a 5% blend zone.

But you can just set up the PJ by maxing out the hight of the raster and then fit the projected image to fit the hight of the screen and move it to the spot where the outside edge of the screen is where the the front of the PJ is square/Parallel to the screen so you wont need much keystone adjustments, the Idea is to keep the PJ square to the screen. Tv-)ne units are easy to set up. once the PJ are set in thier locations a fairly good blend will take 20 minuts or so.


Athanasios


----------



## coachbobby

Thanks!


Does it make a difference how you set up the units, based on viewing preferences? Movies versus Sports


What TVOne unit is best for this application?


----------



## MadMrH

I currently use a C2-7200 TVONE unit


This has HD SDI inputs amoung others - this is a dual ch unit so one unit does all.


Most forum members have bought the TVONE C2250A from me. You require one per projector.


If you are USA based then the $/£ is very much in your favour at the mo.


If you require HD SDI inputs then thats a different unit.


All the best,


Andy.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *coachbobby* /forum/post/15178827
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Does it make a difference how you set up the units, based on viewing preferences? Movies versus Sports
> 
> 
> What TVOne unit is best for this application?



the C2-7200 for now has a lower bandwidth than the new C2-2250 or C2-2255(sdi). But you should set up the refresh rate according to your source material. And with these units its easy to do and your PJ should also be able to set up separate memory blocks for each resolution. Aslo what aspect screen are you going to use? 2.35 will be more beneficial for CRT as you will now use the entire tube face and why blending is preferred by CRT users. If useing two units like the C2-2250 series you may need soem type of switcher and a HDMI/DVI splitter to get the signals to each unit. If you have a VP now you can use that befopre the units for switching and then that output will go to a splitter, then to each unit, then to each PJ.


The only bad thing about going 2.35 is if you want to watch a movie that has subtitles as some movies add the subtitles to the unused black area, I wish they would some how make it adjustable with all the features that Blu ray has it should be possible. But having said that you may have to set up a memory to show those movies in a 1.78 aspect or a custom one to allow the subtitles to appear on the screen.


For video/sport set up a different one at 60hz. its a very versatile unit/s


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I will be blending on a 12 foot wide screen. So each projector will be producing an image of 7 feet wide with a one foot blend zone. Is this correct?



Bobby.

Welcome to the world of blending!


Your dimensions are a little off. If you shoot for a 10% blend (highly recommended for a 2.35-2.4 screen), you will have a total blend width on your 12' wide screen of 5% of the screen width, or about 7-1/4". Each projector will cover about 6'-3-5/8".


I have been using a pair of 2250's fed by a VP50pro for several month's now and am absolutely pleased with the results. I use the VP50pro for input switching, AR control and its HD-SDI inputs. I also concur with 100% of what Athanasios recommended except he is much faster than I am! Maybe I'm just getting old.


The AR issue that Athanasios mentioned on 2.35 screens is also a pita on movie start-up as the Blue-Ray menus are also hidden from view. Still - I wouldn't trade my 'scope screen for a 1.78.


Bob


----------



## MadMrH

*TVONE continue its dedication to the progress of Edgeblend technology


TVONE Edge Blending tool released* http://tvone.crmdesk.com/answer.aspx?id=231 


Direct link to file http://tvone.crmdesk.com/image.aspx?mode=file&id=374 


This is designed to help you setup your TVONE products


*Current Software / Firmware*


Resolution Editor v1.11 http://tvone.crmdesk.com/image.aspx?mode=file&id=304 


Windows control v1.31 http://tvone.crmdesk.com/image.aspx?mode=file&id=347 


C2-7000 series firmware v227 http://tvone.crmdesk.com/image.aspx?mode=file&id=354 


C2-2000A series firmware v231 http://tvone.crmdesk.com/image.aspx?mode=file&id=359 


2000A has HDCP ability (v229 and above)



Andy.


----------



## Sisyphus

I remember some talk about 11-21 point gamma correction (a la lumagen). Does anyone happen to know if this is implemented yet? I'd like to get a C2-1250 if it has the 11 point gamma correction (rather than the moome boxes which don't give you precise control) and then down the road maybe grab a second C2-1250 for blending. If not I guess the lumagen is my only option.


Thanks!


----------



## damon

Not sure if this is a viable blend tip or not but I did think it was interesting.


I was told that a nice quality camcorder or digital camera in video mode will help you spot blend zone anomalies much easier than the naked eye.


----------



## joeycalda

A point/question that I would like to be addressed before I start thinking of a blending project.



My CRT's focus/blooming is always much better in the center than at the edges, but when blending we are blending the edges. So my question is how do you make the edge focus better than the center focus?



Thanks


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *joeycalda* /forum/post/15347789
> 
> 
> A point/question that I would like to be addressed before I start thinking of a blending project.
> 
> 
> 
> My CRT's focus/blooming is always much better in the center than at the edges, but when blending we are blending the edges. So my question is how do you make the edge focus better than the center focus?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks



What PJ? Ones with better lens's work best for this.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

I was trying to remember when I first started looking for a Blend Solution cheaper than the DiVentix 8022. I was waiting for a test unit and shortly after Andy got one and this is how it all began:

Early beginnings thread on the TV-one units 


I think even earlier somewhere Grahm Johnson mentioned the C250 PC cards from Tv_one and I think oliver Kloss was one of the first to try this card.


Thought this be fun to look back on.


Athanasios


----------



## harleydavidsons

Ok thank for your discussion.

I have knowledge.


----------



## nashou66

Hi Guys, those who use a lumagen before their C2-2250/C27200's how do you have each set up to play nice together. I am getting all distortion and movement/shaking of the image. I using a blu ray player(LG BH200 ) all Via HDMI to the 9500LC Moome card installed. I have the Moome MUX after the Blu ray since i have not loaded the newest Firmware to the TV-One yet.


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/15348040
> 
> 
> I was trying to remember when I first started looking for a Blend Solution cheaper than the DiVentix 8022. I was waiting for a test unit and shortly after Andy got one and this is how it all began.........I think even earlier somewhere Grahm Johnson mentioned the C250 PC cards from Tv_one and I think oliver Kloss was one of the first to try this card.
> 
> 
> Thought this be fun to look back on.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



That was way back at 4-10-2007..........


So I looked back at one of my early blend posts........

http://www.avforums.com/forums/crt-p...rojection.html 


Thats 10-6-2005 , Started with PC based, looked into all options available, will try and dig that info out some time, stuck on an old hard drive now.......


Prior to that there were other write ups I can't find, thought they were on AVS.....


So happy I went TVONE







, and things are getting even better from them







.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/15468027
> 
> 
> That was way back at 4-10-2007..........
> 
> 
> So I looked back at one of my early blend posts........
> 
> http://www.avforums.com/forums/crt-p...rojection.html
> 
> 
> Thats 10-6-2005 , Started with PC based, looked into all options available, will try and dig that info out some time, stuck on an old hard drive now.......
> 
> 
> Prior to that there were other write ups I can't find, thought they were on AVS.....
> 
> 
> So happy I went TVONE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , and things are getting even better from them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Yep i saw the C2-260 PC card mention from you back then. But no mention of the Box's.


Andy did you read my post above yours? I cant get the Lumagen HDQ to play nice with the Tv_one. Not sure if your familiar witht he Lummies but i know it can be done just cant make it happen.


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH

Hi Athanasios,


I will PM you about the Lumagen, If any useful info for others is found then as always I/you will post in the thread.


Keeps it TVONE baby







in this thread


----------



## nashou66

Pm Sent andy, at work now and I did not try anything with it earlier today.


Athanasios


----------



## kebac

Hello


Just thinking if these units could rotate image 90 degrees so that projectors could be mounted sideways to the walls. Or somehow rotating tubes would do the trick also.


Greetings from Finland.


Lauri


----------



## jpop

It was long time ago when I gave up all blending plans. My second EH9500 has been sitting quietly in a corner ever since. Now I read this thread and I have seriously started to think blending again. I will have to blame all you for my future divorse...







I am probably planning smallest blend with 9" units here - less than 2,4 m wide - or am i?


Kebac:

I think I saw a thread (either here or Curt's place) where someone turned tubes 90 degrees, but I could not find it now. Anyone has a link to that?


What exactly are your plans with that kind of configuration?


----------



## kebac

jpop


I may be planning for similar size screen, 2.3-2.5m wide. I might also be interested in projecting Very Hi res material. Like computer gaming or other graphics >1080p.


Having picture and tubes rotated 90 degrees might yield more optimal phosphor usage for 16:9 picture because of 4:3 or so phosphor area ratio.


Also I think that having PJs installed to the walls might be a better solution for my room than having PJs bolted to the ceiling.


I was very interested at C2-260 cards but as their input sampling frequency was only 108MHz they might not be suitable. Seems that these newer C2 products are up to the job.


PS. my current setup is a Barco Data 650, 7" ES analog machine so about any decent projector would be an Improvement. I just dont want to settle for anything less than a significant upgrade and this blending thing sounds doable.


----------



## nashou66

with the TV ones I am pretty sure you can rotate the picture 90 degrees but i dont think it be ideal that way for 16x9 i think you would need three Pj's in that configuration for it to get the right aspect ratio for 1.78 you'd only have a 6x4 size actually smaller if you subtract the blend zone and it be a 1.5 aspect not enough for 1.78.


keeping the PJ as they are is the best way even for 1.78, Tim does his blendzilla at 1.92 aspect and crops a little off where its needed. its not enough to really notice I assume.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Now come out with that for the Lumagen VP's


Athanasios


----------



## Gary Murrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/15534375
> 
> 
> Now come out with that for the Lumagen VP's
> 
> 
> Athanasios



maybe







will have to see










-Gary


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/15534375
> 
> 
> Now come out with that for the Lumagen VP's
> 
> 
> Athanasios



I'd definitely go for that!


Gary - do your mods reduce the time or number of handshakes between hdmi devices?


----------



## Gary Murrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/15537705
> 
> 
> I'd definitely go for that!
> 
> 
> Gary - do your mods reduce the time or number of handshakes between hdmi devices?



Gino, my HD-SDI mods completely remove all handshake issues with devices







sorry I had to do it, please forgive me










I can feel the pain, HDMI is one big problem, but I actually think HDCP is more to blame than anything else










-Gary


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gary Murrell* /forum/post/15545031
> 
> 
> Gino, my HD-SDI mods completely remove all handshake issues with devices
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sorry I had to do it, please forgive me



So you're saying that you don't experience those delays while the devices try and 'sync' with each other, the black, green and blue screens?


----------



## Tim in Phoenix




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kebac* /forum/post/15493471
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
> 
> Just thinking if these units could rotate image 90 degrees so that projectors could be mounted sideways to the walls. Or somehow rotating tubes would do the trick also.
> 
> 
> Greetings from Finland.
> 
> 
> Lauri



Hello


That would not help in a room more than eight feet wide......



.


----------



## kebac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/15529492
> 
> 
> with the TV ones I am pretty sure you can rotate the picture 90 degrees but i dont think it be ideal that way for 16x9 i think you would need three Pj's in that configuration for it to get the right aspect ratio for 1.78 you'd only have a 6x4 size actually smaller if you subtract the blend zone and it be a 1.5 aspect not enough for 1.78.
> 
> 
> keeping the PJ as they are is the best way even for 1.78, Tim does his blendzilla at 1.92 aspect and crops a little off where its needed. its not enough to really notice I assume.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



So I still need to rotate the tubes if I want PJs to be wall-mounted.



Tim, that would be the case. Or if going to wider room then I am definitely going for wider image.


Lauri


----------



## Sisyphus

How do the tv one units compare to lumagen and dvdo/anchorbaytech for scaling and deinterlacing video or film?


Also, has anyone been in contact with tv one about them adding a 11/15 point gamma curve/correction (like lumagen)? It would be really nice to have everything I need in the tv one and not also have to run though a lumagen just for the gamma correction.


Thanks!


----------



## nashou66

Hi guys, i acidentaly deleted all the resolutions in the unit when adding one i want to test 1920x817, for a single PJ set up i am trying. Will a firmware reload return them all?


Aslo the corio2 softwear freezes up on me after it sync the resolutions but on the setting it freezes at different points. Whats wrong?


EDIT: A firmware reset is all it needed


Athnaasios


----------



## nashou66

TVOne_engineer(Bob) HDCP isn't working right. Neither of my Bluray Players are able to output 1080p. I have the LG BH100 and LG BH200. the BH100 only outputs 1080p24 while the BH200 outputs both [email protected] and [email protected] I confimed it was not my HDMI input card as the BH200 works on this outputing [email protected]


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Just a testament to TV-Ones dedication to please the customer. Andy and Rob are trying to locate a BH200 or BH100 player to test. if they cant find one they will buy one! Awesome guys!!!


Athanasios


----------



## Sisyphus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sisyphus* /forum/post/15576321
> 
> 
> Also, has anyone been in contact with tv one about them adding a 11/15 point gamma curve/correction (like lumagen)? It would be really nice to have everything I need in the tv one and not also have to run though a lumagen just for the gamma correction.
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Just thought I'd update this with a response I received from TV one:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVone (Email)* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> We don't support custom gamma curves at present, but have been asked about this in the past.
> 
> 
> It's unlikely we'll have anything in the near future to support this.
> 
> 
> Regards



Also, 90 degree image rotation isn't supported (for projectors on their side)


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVone (Email)* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, at this time our products do not support rotation of the image of any kind. We can flip the image and we can mirror the image, but we cannot rotate it.
> 
> 
> If you have any other questions, please contact us again.



I appreciate TV one getting back to me so quickly.


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/15682729
> 
> 
> Just a testament to TV-Ones dedication to please the customer. Andy and Rob are trying to locate a BH200 or BH100 player to test. if they cant find one they will buy one! Awesome guys!!!
> 
> 
> Athanasios










- Just to keep you up to speed, I now have the USA version BH200 unit with me and about to ship to TVONE UK. (I am also UK based







)


----------



## MadMrH

Hi Sisyphus,


Feel free to contact TVONE direct, thats great and saves me time.


I would menton that at least 90% of my requests have been completed by TVONE, the other 10% are still under consideration or on going research........


I have to say that just asking a question of any manufacturer will usually get a quick but short reply.


To consider feature requests a more factual based request gets serious consideration, I have always mentioned that I am happy to create requests that relate to blending or push new concepts, some of my requests have been pages long of data , some only a few lines.


Also I feel that one point of contact helps TVONE, I am a reseller of TVONE products so can put forward customer requests, If these are a requirement for the unit to function (above HDCP related post) then high priority is placed on them. This was the main reson I decided to use TVONE products in my own cinema, From the start requests to push the area of blending forward were considered and acted on.

*Please PM me about the situation that requires 90 and 270 deg rotation*.


The more I understand about what you might require the more I can help, you ased for 90 deg, I have added 270 as well - ALL my requests consider not just the request of an individual but also possible application in other areas - I am 20+ years an installer in the domestic and commercial AV field.


RE : Gamma correction / custom curves - This IS an area that in depth requests have been made and are being followed up. This is my highest priority request.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/15783678
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Just to keep you up to speed, I now have the USA version BH200 unit with me and about to ship to TVONE UK. (I am also UK based
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )



Thanks Andy, I think you'll like the BH200's performance once you get it back from TV-One, the Qdeo Chip really shines.


I also asked TV-One tech support to implement the gamma, I was told its in there just not activated yet as more testing needs to be done. if they could implement it the way Lumagen does that be great!


Oh and I got my Lumagen and TV-One to play nice...all i need was to add more resolutions to the TV-One like the [email protected] i was sending from the Lumagen.


Athanasios


----------



## Gary Murrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/15783879
> 
> 
> Thanks Andy, I think you'll like the BH200's performance once you get it back from TV-One, the Qdeo Chip really shines.
> 
> 
> I also asked TV-One tech support to implement the gamma, I was told its in there just not activated yet as more testing needs to be done. if they could implement it the way Lumagen does that be great!
> 
> 
> Oh and I got my Lumagen and TV-One to play nice...all i need was to add more resolutions to the TV-One like the [email protected] i was sending from the Lumagen.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Athan, would love to make that HD-SDI for the BH200 happen







still no news for you yet


-Gary


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sisyphus* /forum/post/15782710
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TV-One* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by TVone (Email)
> 
> 
> We don't support custom gamma curves at present, but have been asked about this in the past.
> 
> 
> It's unlikely we'll have anything in the near future to support this.
> 
> 
> Regards
Click to expand...


not true they plan on this:



> Quote:
> TV One Support (Europe) 10/02/2009 15:43:53
> 
> Hi Athanasios,
> 
> Nope its not locked we just haven written any PC software to allow you to program in your own gamma tables  We were waiting for the resources to be available to be able to do this... which we now have. The idea is to allow you to program in your own gamma curve(max 256 points) and to have a on screen manually adjustable curve where you select a point and move it. I assume you wanted these features for R, G and B individually ?
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Rob



Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/15547757
> 
> 
> So you're saying that you don't experience those delays while the devices try and 'sync' with each other, the black, green and blue screens?



On the TVONE you can select "Black" as the screen for "loss of signal"


That gets rid of the green or blue screens, I prefer black if I have to have a screen colour for signal loss.


----------



## Sisyphus

Andy and Athanasios,


Thank you for the inside information. I will go through you guys in the future for questions.











> Quote:
> TV One Support (Europe) 10/02/2009 15:43:53
> 
> Hi Athanasios,
> 
> Nope its not locked we just haven written any PC software to allow you to program in your own gamma tables  We were waiting for the resources to be available to be able to do this... which we now have. The idea is to allow you to program in your own gamma curve(max 256 points) and to have a on screen manually adjustable curve where you select a point and move it. *I assume you wanted these features for R, G and B individually ?*
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Rob



That sounds great. Individual color channels as well as an option to move all three simultaneously would be perfect!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MadMrH* /forum/post/15783704
> 
> 
> Hi Sisyphus,
> 
> 
> *Please PM me about the situation that requires 90 and 270 deg rotation*.



It's not a big deal. If I used 3 blending units for a future project, image rotation would be necessary; however, the more I think about it, I might be better off with 4 blending units...and image rotation would not be needed.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sisyphus* /forum/post/15790603
> 
> 
> Andy and Athanasios,
> 
> 
> Thank you for the inside information. I will go through you guys in the future for questions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds great. Individual color channels as well as an option to move all three simultaneously would be perfect!



Yepp, I added that also and asked if they could do the same with CMS (color Managment System)


Athanasios


----------



## Alan Gouger

Hey everyone. There have been a lot of posts from people doing blending over the years yet no pictures. Id love to see some pics


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Gouger* /forum/post/15791824
> 
> 
> Hey everyone. There have been a lot of posts from people doing blending over the years yet no pictures. Id love to see some pics



Alan this isn't a TV-One blender(Rodan-O-Blend) but Ginos DiVentix(BlendZilla)


its 13 foot wide.











Once I get my LongBow 8500 Ultras with HD145 factory installed lnses i will do a quick floor set up with the Tv-Ones and post.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

hi Guys, I got the newest beta Firmware to get the Bh200 and BH100 to play. Almost there, the BH200 will do [email protected] out and the Bh100 only does 720p , Thye cant get [email protected] to the Tv-One and the BH100 only outputs that res. There are some ohter updates for it as well. the list of additions is on the web site.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Why are all the sticky threads like this one linked in that one ? its goijng to be harder to find them for some.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Well i am still having a slight issue with the LG BH 200 and the C2-2250, but Rob said they are working on a EDID editor to help out. here is his reply.



> Quote:
> _Hi Athanasios,
> 
> We are working on a EDID manager for the scalers that will allow you to copy EDID's from a connected display, and eventually program a custom one from the outside world  I think that this will probably solve all the issues.
> 
> 
> If you only have 3 resolutions in the scaler and it doesn't recognize whats coming in from a source then it will pick the next closest from the resolution table hence its getting the 1080P72. Restricting resolutions per input using th resolution table is really difficult, however using a custom EDID would allow this on a per input basis which hopefully will solve the issue.
> 
> 
> We Should have something this week for you to play with ill send it over when its done.
> 
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 
> Robert_



This does sound interesting. I asked if they could have a non Global resolution list, so its per input. But this sounds close to that. I think a per input capabilities would be better. Maybe you can push for it Andy. the reason is with my Bh 200 it will default to a different res if I add to many and I cant lock it to output [email protected], its actually outputting [email protected] ! I never heard or seen of a player that can output that resolution. It must be the Qdeo processor in the unit.


Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Gouger* /forum/post/15791824
> 
> 
> Hey everyone. There have been a lot of posts from people doing blending over the years yet no pictures. Id love to see some pics



I suspect you've seen these before but brought back good memories seeing them again.


Pair of blended hot rodded Marquee 9500LC Ultra's doing 1080p72 on a 14' wide cinemascope unity gain screen.


These shots were before I installed the sony frankenyokes, the LUG's and colour corrected red c-elements.


----------



## nashou66

Ahh I miss those pics.. you need some new ones dude.


When setting up the blend Gino, how did you start with PJ placement? Did you first max out the ratser on the tube face and then move the pJ image of an exact 1.33 image to a pre-determined hight of your screen and putting the left or right side of the image to the respective screen edge and then what ever over lap you had you blended that? I think my blend zone is way to thin as my over lap of PJ image doesnt seem right. Pj placement is one of the two hardest parts along with equaling the greyscale and colorimetry.


This is where i wish a die hard CRT tweeker lived near by to help out. Some times if your too close to a project you miss the obvious things.


Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS

I worked out that I wanted a 15% blendzone, so marked that out on the screen. Then worked out throw by maximising raster width and moving pj back and forth to fill the desired half.


----------



## nashou66

So you marked out the screen in half, then went to 7.5% on each side of the half to get the 15% blend zone. Then filled the raster maxed out and moved to PJ till it filled the the screen half and the extra 7.5% correct? i assume you didn't get each Pj's raster exactly the same size, but if you did how was it done? did you measure it out right on the tube face and mark it? It seams like it be very hard to do that...


Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/16160203
> 
> 
> So you marked out the screen in half, then went to 7.5% on each side of the half to get the 15% blend zone. Then filled the raster maxed out and moved to PJ till it filled the the screen half and the extra 7.5% correct? i assume you didn't get each Pj's raster exactly the same size, but if you did how was it done? did you measure it out right on the tube face and mark it? It seams like it be very hard to do that...
> 
> 
> Athanasios



That's pretty much it!


The raster sizes were pretty similarly sized, as I set the widths myself before working out throws. It was the throw distances that were different, but not by much, 1-2" tops.


----------



## KSY

Does that affect the mounting height too?


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KSY* /forum/post/16161191
> 
> 
> Does that affect the mounting height too?



Yes, but you're only talking minor tweaks, 1" at most


----------



## Alan Gouger

Wow love it guys. Gino that has to look great sitting in the front row.

How did the blend look during fade ins/outs


Good work Gino. I hope your back up and running soon. Looking foreword to seeing more pictures.


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Gouger* /forum/post/16168056
> 
> 
> Wow love it guys. Gino that has to look great sitting in the front row.
> 
> How did the blend look during fade ins/outs
> 
> 
> Good work Gino. I hope your back up and running soon. Looking foreword to seeing more pictures.



Blend was using the Lumagen Radiance to create custom gamma curves. It was able to hold a full fade to black for 6 seconds during normal viewing. If I put a full field white screen up for a couple of seconds then black, it took 13 seconds for my eyes to readjust and see the screen. Mind you, this was in a room that had white walls and ceilings, I was able to put black velvet like material on the floor and most of the front wall though. If I had a bat cave I'm sure it would have held much longer.


I was planning on doing a whole write up on the setup of my blend, but I've now moved homes. I'll post some pics of what I had in any case, but I suspect it will be several months before I get around to setting it all up again.


----------



## nashou66

well i have worked on the temporary blend on the floor to get the hang of what's involved.

man setting up two PJ's for a blend is much harder than doing it for a stack! I was actually thinking to stack them first to get both to have the exact same geometry then move the one to the blend position. well any how the geometry set up is the hardest part so far , I did not work on greyscale for the PJ's yet as that is the most important, slightly off geometry is not that noticeable so far from my quick viewing. And setting up the C2-2250's was the easiest part. I only wish they had a bit finer zoom and shift controls, that is have them in smaller steps of adjustment. For digitals it doesn't matter but with a crt and its geometry functions like S and C linearity it help out much more.

I fist set it up having the blend guides perfectly lined up so the red and green overlaped to make yellow, this sets the blend zone between them. But once this was done i shut of the guides and adjusted the blend zone size on each pj a bit to eliminate the blend zone line as best i could with out having two calibrated pj's(just want to learn this stuff first) these are definitely nice scalers. I cant wait till they add the PC gamma control and other PC based control programs.


But setting up two CRT PJ's to have the same geometry and dimensions is a daunting task, i still have to perfect this. So I think a few more complete set ups from scratch is whats need for me to get the geometry perfect. I may pull out my old digital and use that to show the grid and converge both PJ to that. But so far I am having lot of fun, even though its lots of work.


Athanasios


----------



## Alan Gouger

Athanasios glad to see you taking on the challenge. If I ever decide to venture into a blend Ill have a certified neighbor for hire not far away
















.


----------



## nashou66

Well here are some screenies of the very very rough set up

with no CPC mags adjusted no Scheimplug and the geometry

at about a 7 out of 10. And no colorimeter work at all as you

will be able to see. i also overexposed the pics a bit, a second

less would have been more accurate.
























































As you can see lots of work still to be done!!! But I am

having a fun time learning, even after about 2.5 years with

a marquee there is still much more to learn!


Athanasios


----------



## Alan Gouger

Geometry looks darn good.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Gouger* /forum/post/16189499
> 
> 
> Geometry looks darn good.



its getting there Alan, if you look at the third pic the white long bar.... see how its not straight in the center. This is the hardest area to get lined up.

I think My old digital will need to be brought out to set each PJ to that

grid. See Digital's are good for something !










Athanasios


----------



## overclkr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/16189554
> 
> 
> its getting there Alan, if you look at the third pic the white long bar.... see how its not straight in the center. This is the hardest area to get lined up.
> 
> I think My old digital will need to be brought out to set each PJ to that
> 
> grid. See Digital's are good for something !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Nashou!!!!!!!!!!!! Looking good bro! Keep picking away at that bastard!










Cliffy


----------



## Chuchuf

Even though the conventional wisdom around here is to maximize the raster size on the tube face, I don't believe that is what you want to do for a blend.

The main reason is that the light output falls off pretty dramatically on the tube edges.


Terry


----------



## Gary Murrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chuchuf* /forum/post/16194420
> 
> 
> Even though the conventional wisdom around here is to maximize the raster size on the tube face, I don't believe that is what you want to do for a blend.
> 
> The main reason is that the light output falls off pretty dramatically on the tube edges.
> 
> 
> Terry



plus you don't need too, you get all that height










-Gary


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chuchuf* /forum/post/16194420
> 
> 
> Even though the conventional wisdom around here is to maximize the raster size on the tube face, I don't believe that is what you want to do for a blend.
> 
> The main reason is that the light output falls off pretty dramatically on the tube edges.
> 
> 
> Terry



Yepp, i was noticing that while doing the set up. But in a blend you dont get near the edges on the blend side. I also think i might swap the blue for red on one PJ once i am ready to ceiling mount them now that i have the rough location for each. I want to work more on them tonight but working in the restaurant business, weekends kill me physically and mentally. Need to go rest a bit first today then i may mess around with colorimetry first before

doing more on getting perfect geometry, i also want to try to find the Align pattern MP mentioned over on Curts site.


Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chuchuf* /forum/post/16194420
> 
> 
> Even though the conventional wisdom around here is to maximize the raster size on the tube face, I don't believe that is what you want to do for a blend.
> 
> The main reason is that the light output falls off pretty dramatically on the tube edges.
> 
> 
> Terry



Terry of course is correct here. I actually setup with my raster centre a little to one side so that the blendzone side has more space between raster and tube edge so less roll off.


----------



## Boilermaker

Athanasios - Congrats! I'm sure you are glad you finally are getting to set this up. You are far enough along that you can tell how truly awesome the end result is going to be! Can't tell for sure from your pictures, but did you decide to go with a 2.35/2.4 screen size or did you stay with a 1.78? Also, what is the width and screen gain you are using?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/16216194
> 
> 
> Athanasios - Congrats! I'm sure you are glad you finally are getting to set this up. You are far enough along that you can tell how truly awesome the end result is going to be! Can't tell for sure from your pictures, but did you decide to go with a 2.35/2.4 screen size or did you stay with a 1.78? Also, what is the width and screen gain you are using?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



Thanks Bob, I am using the 16x9 screen but will mask it to 2.40 and its 140 inches wide.


I am beginning now on redoing the magnetics on the PJ's so the work i did is gone but each time i do it i'll get closer and closer and really don't mind the many attempts i will do, it keeps out of the bars. The hardest part is the color calibration and the one LongBow doesn't want to play nice i have not done the second one but from the rough "bye Eye" calibration it seems to be ok.

the one on the left always has a brown or green cast to the grey. I am Useing Calman and the Eye one Lt package. If i go against what the reading say and boost blue to 150% it gets better but as soon as I lower the brightness everything goes green. Something is amiss with the Pj I think.

I will try the calibration on the right Pj tomorrow and see how that one behaves. I started the magnetics on the left Pj also since i thought the Greens astig might be causing the color problems(had a bit of a flare to green)


Athanasios


----------



## pkarmouche

Athanasios,


Good job. I have been following this thread for some time, as I hope to set up a blended 2.35:1 theater in our new home later this year.


As far as you know, how many of these TVONE CRT blended setups are running?


I've seen convincing testimonials about BLENZILLA setups that indicate the blend zone is invisible, but I can't say the same for the TVONE setups. I see you have come a long way, but I also see that you aren't quite there yet (the first few screenshots of your setup reveal the blend zone)... Have you observed a TVONE setup with an invisible blend zone?


Thank you for sharing your sucesses with this!


Paul


----------



## nashou66

paul, Bob and Andy(OP of the thread) have the TV-One units and have no visible blend zone. I am confident i will get there if i can get both PJ to have almost perfect color

balance. that is key for an invisible blend zone. geometry i noticed doesn't play into it as much while watching movies, but in test patters it does. Also Tv-one is working on some neat features for these , a couple PC based programs for adding custom Gamma curves and a neat EDID manager. Cant wait to try those out as well... and the best thing about TV-One is they actually care!!! they went out and found my specific BD player to figure out an issue. what other company would do that for just one customer?


Athanasios


----------



## Alan Gouger

Would the TV-one lend itself to blending with digital as well or is the focus directed toward CRT?


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Gouger* /forum/post/16222031
> 
> 
> Would the TV-one lend itself to blending with digital as well or is the focus directed toward CRT?



Digital is the main purpose for these and Andy I and others have been working with the engineers and programers to make them more CRT oriented. Some of the suggestions we made also helped out on the digital PJ side. this is one reason i have these so if i ever move to digital i wont need an AR lens. But that move is a long long long time away










Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> 140 inches wide



I'm running at 126" wide with contrast at about 50, so this should be doable, and very impressive!




> Quote:
> I've seen convincing testimonials about BLENZILLA setups that indicate the blend zone is invisible, but I can't say the same for the TVONE setups.



Once he has finished with the colr balance, it will be invisible.



> Quote:
> Would the TV-one lend itself to blending with digital as well or is the focus directed toward CRT?



Alan - While these blenders are actually made for digital projectors, their only real application is for commercial applications. Because digitals all have fixed pixels and you can get them with high light output, there really isn't much of an advantage to blend.


With crt's, however, blending "fixes" the problem of displaying a 2.35AR image using tubes that have about a 1.2AR. This way you can substantially increase the light output, increase the resolution to what you want and lower the bandwidth of the signal each projector sees for increased ANSI CR.


I view it as a marriage made in video heaven! Once you see it, you will want it.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Alan Gouger




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/16222588
> 
> 
> 
> Alan - While these blenders are actually made for digital projectors, their only real application is for commercial applications. Because digitals all have fixed pixels and you can get them with high light output, there really isn't much of an advantage to blend.



Another advantage in CRTs corner it will display the resolution sent it native where a digital blend would involve a lot of interpolated scaling

but interesting non the less.


----------



## nashou66

Well i figured out my color balance problem, and need to pin point the problem exactly.

On the Bran new PJ the Vim is faulty. There is no Brightness adjustment for the Green channel. I will narrow it down and am going to replace the op amp that controls the drive signal. I replaced a diode that is in the signal path of the Bright control coming into the Vim. so next is the op amp U9. lets hope this is it. I hope TSE chimes in with some advice on other places to look on the board. But looking at the schematics it can be only along that signal path as the contrast works for all channels. And I took apart the whole magnetics and started from scratch on the convergence and geometry to figure it out!! I had it better the first try , go figure! Well paractice will make perfect i guess.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Another advantage in CRTs corner it will display the resolution sent it native where a digital blend would involve a lot of interpolated scaling



Exactly! When I get the time, I'm going to set it up at 1054X1200 @ 72Hz for each projector for film based 2.4 movies. The upscaling to 1200 is an easy and natural interpolation of the original 800 lines of image from my Blu-Ray and my 8" XG's have no problem with it at all. Obvious scan lines from 4-5 ft. away!


Those lucky enough to have two 9"ers in a blend could easily just double to 1600 lines especially if they have enhanced high bandwidth video circuits. After the 10% blend, the final image would be a beautiful 1920X1600 @ 72Hz derived from the original 1920X800 @24fps from the Blu-Ray.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/16221806
> 
> 
> geometry i noticed doesn't play into it as much while watching movies, but in test patters it does



I disagree here. Poor geometry even in single projector setups is very distracting during pans while watching movies. In a blend setup, if you dont nail geometry in the blendzone, you will notice something strange happening in the centre of your movie during pans, it will direct your attention here and then you will see your blend. You have to reallly nail both grey scale and geometry to get a truly seamless blend.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/16243026
> 
> 
> I disagree here. Poor geometry even in single projector setups is very distracting during pans while watching movies. In a blend setup, if you dont nail geometry in the blendzone, you will notice something strange happening in the centre of your movie during pans, it will direct your attention here and then you will see your blend. You have to reallly nail both grey scale and geometry to get a truly seamless blend.



I understand what you mean Gino, I had that with my super rough attempt.

But this last one i did not notice that "FUN HOUSE MIRROR" affect. and I did'nt think i had the overall geometry correct.


But i got the Color problem resolved( a bad Octal DAC ) and I know for sure it will look sweet once I get it calibrated and redo the geometry to a "T"







The Align test pattern really does help for doing the blend zone more precisely .


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

The newest Firm wear update it out V270.
http://www.tvone.com/tech_support_firmware.shtml 


It has the EDID manager and a FRAME LOCK feature. there are links to the

new features and how to use them in the above link.


Athanasios


----------



## MadMrH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/16290834
> 
> 
> The newest Firm wear update it out V270.
> http://www.tvone.com/tech_support_firmware.shtml
> 
> 
> It has the EDID manager and a FRAME LOCK feature.
> 
> There are links to the new features and how to use them in the above link.
> *Mr H must be sleeping*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Exactly what he said







.

*NEW FIRMWARE for 2000A units.*


Not tested this yet, But maybe this means you can force 1080p24 from a player ???


Frame lock is useful to lock in and out frame rates to bethe same.

(I come in 1080p24 and out p72 so not required)


----------



## nashou66

So what output resolution are you Tv-One blender using? Also what are you doing with all the other settings for NR, Image smoothing etc?


Athanasios


----------



## macboy

I have a question about *TV ONE "Genlock" and "Frame Lock"*. I hope that the actual TV ONE engineers that have been active in this thread can help answer.


Is it possible to do Genlock with a different resolution, that happens to have the same horizontal and vertical rates (e.g. 1024x768 60 Hz input and 1365x768 60 output ... only the pixel clock needs to change, not H or V rates). This would be *very* useful for blending, it could allow pixel-for-pixel output (no horizontal scaling) for each projector, if each output horizontal resolution was set to approximately 55 to 60% of the input horizontal resolution.


Can the C2-260 do "frame lock" or only "genlock"? From what I understand frame lock allows output at a different resolution as long as the vertical rate (e.g. 59.94 Hz) is the same for the seleceted output resoultion and the lock source. Again this would be very useful for blending for the same reason as above.


Can _or will_ any TV ONE scaler (especially the C2-260 which I own 2 of) output a multiple of the input rate? This is basically a modified version of frame lock. e.g. 1080p/24Hz input and 1080p/72Hz output? Due to the severely restricted input sampling rate (108 MHz! Sheesh!) this would be very useful. 1080p/24 easily works within 108 MHz. I have a VisionHDP and this is one of its best features.


I would love to use my C2-260 cards in a CRT blend setup, but the input resolution limitation threatens to make that nearly impossible. It's a shame that such a promising product has that limiation. (It's also shameful that the specs say it is compatible with 1080p input when it clearly isn't: 1080p has a ~135 MHz pixel clock).


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/16322080
> 
> 
> So what output resolution are you Tv-One blender using? Also what are you doing with all the other settings for NR, Image smoothing etc?
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Still waiting for an answer guys









I was looking at my set up while color calibrating my one PJ and noticed motion issues on pans and some shimmering on the edges of color transitions on vertical lines. I know this has to be a setting issue. I am using for now 1064x800 @72 to each PJ. Now what should the other setting be in the Windows, and source menu's. should they be set to Advanced and 1:1 ?


Could what i am seeing be caused by he improper resolution of 1064?


What are most of you using?


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> What are most of you using?



Right now I am using [email protected] When I get time to do some further calibrations (waiting on some new test patterns - going to try Gino's excellent idea of matching using horizontal gry scale steps), I will probably try [email protected]&72. I'm feeding my TVOne's from a VP50Pro at [email protected] right now but will change that to 1920X800 at both frequencies.



> Quote:
> noticed motion issues on pans and some shimmering on the edges of color transitions



I have not had these issues at all, so I doubt its related to the 1064.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

I might up it to 1064x1080 then and see how that looks. It also judder on pans, like in the Prince Caspian where they are walking around in the ruins of narnia, its not smooth like it should be when watching it.


I'm going from my LG BH200>MUX-HD>TV Ones>Moome VIM-HD


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Bob can you post your timing numbers from the resolution editor for the 1064x1080p @60


Its a pain in the a$$ to get the timings for a Marquee as they dont like the sync timings lower than 1us.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

What is your refresh rate coming from your LG? If it is 60, perhaps there is an issue changing it to 72?


----------



## nashou66

its 23.xxxx something.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Here is some info for those who want to use the Windows Control panel to save their setting from the C2-2xxx series. I am using a Mac Book running windows with Bootcamp. and a Keyspan USB/rs232 adapter. Make sure you have he newest drivers for the adapter, then go into device manager and make it COM1 and set the baud rate to 56000. Anything lower and the unit wont sync up.


I still have not got the Ethernet communication to work, if anyone has let me know how its done.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Bob, I figured out why it was juddering so bad, i had my Blu ray outputting 1080i not p .


I updated my firmware and also played with the timings in the resolution editor

so that the frame rate was exactly 3 times what my source rate was. you have to keep messing around till you get the same number but it does help. I am getting much closer now. I calibrated both sets but now I will pick the one that has the best greyscale curve and use its 100IRE as the target white point in Calman. then use it as a reference for calibrating the other set. the hardest part is setting the contrat and brightness so both sets are close to measuring the same ftl for the 100 IRE window.

The reason it is difficult is that its not only the Brightness and Contrast but the G2's and Drive also affect the black and white levels. Its been so long since i had to do complete setup I now realize why calibrators charge what they do. Very Daunting , especialy trying to match two PJ's.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

New issue, After the v270 update i cant get the image to pan to get the left edge to its proper location for the blend. So both PJ's are now showing the same image with no way to shift it over. Also the aspect ratio it shows next to the one menu that changes as you do the H/V zooming is showing one thing while zooming but then after setting it changes to a large number value like 8.xxx:1 anyone else see this with the new firmware? i will try to go back tot he older version tonight and see what changes.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

I have not updated yet because I am going to wait until there is multipont grayscale capability. I'm always afraid of updates that might have a glitch - Hope you get it figured out.


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/16874173
> 
> 
> I have not updated yet because I am going to wait until there is multipont grayscale capability. I'm always afraid of updates that might have a glitch - Hope you get it figured out.
> 
> 
> Bob




I used the tech supports "ask a question" section. They are really good at responding quickly.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

+++++ THANK YOU GINO!!! +++++


I finally got around to trying Gino's logical suggestion of using CalMan to set up the first projector and then using a horizontal gray scale to match the second projector to the first one color at a time.


I am now convinced that this is the best and easiest way to setup a blend. The results are that 98% of the time it is as though the image is created by just one projector. The remaining 2% is only slightly bothersome and you have to look for it to even notice it. I believe there are two reasons for this:


First, light output falls off somewhat as you get to the edge of the tube, and unfortunately it is not linear from top to bottom. Not much I could do here but use judgement on a good balance. I wish now that I had reversed the tube positions on one of the projectors to make both sides symmetrical. I think that would at least help somewhat. Maybe the Marquee's have an advantage here with zone contrast capability, but I don't have that much experience with them.


Second. since I insisted on a low end gamma boost, I was stuck with using a pair of Cresendo's which work in the analog domain, I quickly found there is but one way to get both of them to behave identically - Go back and forth about 10 times until you get them as close as possible. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get a seamless blend without them being the same. My VP50Pro does not have this capability, so I was stuck in the analog domain.


Having got it soooo close to perfect, I now have an extended wish list for TVOne's wonderful blenders:

1 - Install a low end gamma adjustable boost.

2 - Install 21 point color adjustments.

3 - Have separate color gamma adjustment for the blend zone - This probably would be needless if it had #2, however.


I'm goin' to watch some movies today!!!


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17004145
> 
> 
> +++++ THANK YOU GINO!!! +++++
> 
> 
> I finally got around to trying Gino's logical suggestion of using CalMan to set up the first projector and then using a horizontal gray scale to match the second projector to the first one color at a time.
> 
> 
> I am now convinced that this is the best and easiest way to setup a blend. The results are that 98% of the time it is as though the image is created by just one projector. The remaining 2% is only slightly bothersome and you have to look for it to even notice it. I believe there are two reasons for this:
> 
> 
> First, light output falls off somewhat as you get to the edge of the tube, and unfortunately it is not linear from top to bottom. Not much I could do here but use judgement on a good balance. I wish now that I had reversed the tube positions on one of the projectors to make both sides symmetrical. I think that would at least help somewhat. Maybe the Marquee's have an advantage here with zone contrast capability, but I don't have that much experience with them.
> 
> 
> Second. since I insisted on a low end gamma boost, I was stuck with using a pair of Cresendo's which work in the analog domain, I quickly found there is but one way to get both of them to behave identically - Go back and forth about 10 times until you get them as close as possible. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get a seamless blend without them being the same. My VP50Pro does not have this capability, so I was stuck in the analog domain.
> 
> 
> Having got it soooo close to perfect, I now have an extended wish list for TVOne's wonderful blenders:
> 
> 1 - Install a low end gamma adjustable boost.
> 
> 2 - Install 21 point color adjustments.
> 
> 3 - Have separate color gamma adjustment for the blend zone - This probably would be needless if it had #2, however.
> 
> 
> I'm goin' to watch some movies today!!!
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



I finally got my second unit back from repair, I broke the toggle. But i too was going to try this method. So you just do it by eye then or did you put the colorimeter on each grey bar on one side and then write down the numbers and match them first by eye on the second PJ and then fine tune via the colorimeter? I think if you didn't use the Colorimeter it might get you that one step closer. This is the method I plan to try.


Bob How much blend Zone gamma did you end up using for each unit?


Oh and what Pattern did you use? none of the calibration Disks I have use it, but i know i have one on a comp I can put on a USB drive and have my LG BH 200 display it.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Athanasios,


My original intention was to use the horizontal gray scale that I think is available on this forum, but I ended up using the internal signal generator of my VP50Pro (I could have used most any test disc) for full fields from 10 to 80 IRE.

I did this because I got a top to bottom view of each field so I could guestimate an average. The zone contrast modulation that your Marquee's have might help here.


I found several things - Blue is far more uneven at the edges than red or greeen and is the hardest to make look perfect. Also, I looked at 10IRE in addition to 20 and 30, and it is here that you will find how important it is to have your gamma boost identical for both projectors. Finally, I also redid my G2 cutoffs as they must be identical. It is only when I got my G2, gamma boost and black level set so that at 0, 10, 20 and 30 both sides looked identical that the blend zone disappeared.


I NEVER touched the first projector that I used the colorometer on! The second was done entirely by eye and was easy once I got those three set properly. I just wish I could get a more even blue throughout.


I ended up with blend zone gamma's of .36. Really don't know what this figure represents, but it works.


Also, instead of shutting off the tubes during this process, I used lens caps so that they would stay at normal working ambient temperatures.


Hope this helps - I can promise it is worth the time spent.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17004145
> 
> 
> +++++ THANK YOU GINO!!! +++++
> 
> 
> I finally got around to trying Gino's logical suggestion of using CalMan to set up the first projector and then using a horizontal gray scale to match the second projector to the first one color at a time.
> 
> 
> I am now convinced that this is the best and easiest way to setup a blend.



No worries Bob! Having setup multiple blends, I feel this is definitely the way to go.


One way though that you could improve further would be to use less horiztonal width on your rasters so that the light drop off isn't so steep towards the edges. This way it is easier to blend.


I use the Radiance so that I have total control of greyscale and primaries/secondaries. I also can adjust for low end gamma before the signal is split so that the projector responses are identical.


Enjoy your blend!!


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> One way though that you could improve further would be to use less horiztonal width on your rasters so that the light drop off isn't so steep towards the edges. This way it is easier to blend.



I agree but it would be a trade-off with the dynamic range that I am now enjoying. I also wish I had swapped the R-B tubes on one of the projectors as the one on the right suffers more from drop off than the left one.


Since the R and G do not seem to be as affected, I wonder why B is? Since the circuitry and tube cobstruction is identical it must have something to do with the wavelenth of blue???



> Quote:
> I use the Radiance so that I have total control of greyscale and primaries/secondaries.



In retrospect, I wish I did get the Radience, but I chose the VP50Pro because of its HDSDI inputs and the promise of further development.

Wouldn't it be nice if Radience was available with dual outputs and built-in blending?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17007788
> 
> 
> I agree but it would be a trade-off with the dynamic range that I am now enjoying. I also wish I had swapped the R-B tubes on one of the projectors as the one on the right suffers more from drop off than the left one.
> 
> 
> Since the R and G do not seem to be as affected, I wonder why B is? Since the circuitry and tube cobstruction is identical it must have something to do with the wavelenth of blue???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In retrospect, I wish I did get the Radience, but I chose the VP50Pro because of its HDSDI inputs and the promise of further development.
> *Wouldn't it be nice if Radience was available with dual outputs and built-in blending?*
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



I was Pushing Lumagen for this but they said they'd look into it. I think the idea has died. Its a shame too since it be a nice piece for certain type of commercial uses.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I was Pushing Lumagen for this but they said they'd look into it. I think the idea has died. Its a shame too since it be a nice piece for certain type of commercial uses.



What I find even more upsetting is that TVOne has not yet incorporated the higher bandwidth chips from the low-end model we have into their flagship 2 channel models. If they did that, all that would be missing is multipoint controls that I would think is relatively easy to do.


Bob


----------



## nashou66

Well i jsut got this Email from Robert about the Gamma, the main protocal is in the unit but they have been busy with other products and hav not had time to write the software, from previous e-mail he told me it be a Windows based panel that you can put in different gamma numbers from your readings and then adjust the curve to a curve you want to have. here is his E-mail:

_TV One Support (Europe) 17/08/2009 13:32:13

Hi Athanasios,

Nope not yet we have been bussy with a new control panel and the release of the multiviewer and 700 series products. Its all possible in the unit and the protocol is in the unit but we just haven't had time to write the software for it yet :-(


Best regards


Robert_


Bob or Gino one question, when doing the one color on thing for matching PJ's did you

leave the blend on or off? I find it hard to tell how close they are with the uneven blend zone line getting in the way. Or do you adjust till the blend zone dissapears inthat IRE your looking at? I made a 11 point horizontal grey step also to try.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

In my case, I just left it on. My blend zone is only 6-1/2" wide so does not represent a significant portion. When I was done, I then adjusted the blend zone gamma.


I started out just using green to set the combination of white, black and gamma boost viewing all fields from 0 to 100 IRE. I am not familiar with the Marquee's zone contrast, but this might be where you would use it. I'm assuming it is a global control and not separate for each color.


BTW, did you reverse the B and R on ne of your projectors?


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17012723
> 
> 
> In my case, I just left it on. My blend zone is only 6-1/2" wide so does not represent a significant portion. *When I was done, I then adjusted the blend zone gamma.*
> 
> 
> I started out just using green to set the combination of white, black and gamma boost viewing all fields from 0 to 100 IRE. I am not familiar with the Marquee's zone contrast, but this might be where you would use it. I'm assuming it is a global control and not separate for each color.
> 
> 
> BTW, did you reverse the B and R on ne of your projectors?
> 
> 
> Bob



I had the blend zone gamma on while doing it, now I see it be best to not have it activated till after you match the IRE windows, I'll try next time using the whole screen and not a window, this way it will make better use of the CCM of the Marquee. Ill post the Image of the Horizontal pattern I made when I get home.


For the source aspect menu, what are you using? I tried using Fill but i changed it to 1:1 and it works better. It also allowed me not to use the Vertical Zoom, but now the H zoom is 107 whats yours?


When I get home I'll post each menu i am in, and what setting and value i am using so we can compare to see if I might be doing something different. For some reason i am having a bit more trouble than I should be having.


My Blend zone is about the same.



Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Ok here are some of my menu settings Bob:


Windows: Zoom H/V 107- 100, Aspect change[ normal] Aspect Adjust [Advanced]


Source: Aspect Correct: [ 1:1]


Is this how you have these menues set up?


I am getting closer with the colors but because the Colors do drop off at the edges its hard to get an even color field for the IRE's, Now i see where the Zone contrast modulation is needed. I'll work on that tomorrow.


here is the Horizontal grayscale pattern i am using

Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

I think you might have a problem with your H zoom value. The settings I have are:


Zoom H/V - 190/100

Aspect change = Normal

Aspect Adjust = Advanced


I don't have an Aspect Correct in my Source Menu - Probably an addition in the latest firmware that I am not using.


Have you found that Blue has the greatest drop off at the outside?


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17018301
> 
> 
> I think you might have a problem with your H zoom value. The settings I have are:
> 
> 
> Zoom H/V - 190/100
> 
> Aspect change = Normal
> 
> Aspect Adjust = Advanced
> 
> 
> I don't have an Aspect Correct in my Source Menu - Probably an addition in the latest firmware that I am not using.
> 
> 
> Have you found that Blue has the greatest drop off at the outside?
> 
> 
> Bob



I'll try not using the 1:1 pixel mapping of aspect correct and see what happens, but when i use that i get better geometry on my one PJ? I must be doing something Wrong.


I actualy found on the 8500 Longbow the Green and red get darker towards the edge not the blue, blue is the color i had an easier time to get right?


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I actualy found on the 8500 Longbow the Green and red get darker towards the edge not the blue, blue is the color i had an easier time to get right?



It must be a function of the tube - I would never have guessed that.


I think the only big problem you have is your H zoom - It needs to be set appropriately for the percentage of blend you plan on using.


Bob


----------



## nashou66

I did have it set one way where i had a 178 H zoom but I needed the 132 V zoom to get the correct aspect ratio for the 2:35 test pattern on the AVSHD test disc.


I'll go check the Colors again and pay closer attention to the Blue, I am going to use the Color Contrast Modulation function on the Marquee to see if that will eliminate the Blend zone, It makes sense that all tubes wont have the same drop off at the edges especially if both images are not located the same distance from each edge on the tube face. Also I still have to nail convergence and geometry, not sure if this will make that big a difference in seeing the blend zone, i have convergence good on the zone using align software MP told me about, but it can be tweaked some more.



Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I did have it set one way where i had a 178 H zoom but I needed the 132 V zoom to get the correct aspect ratio for the 2:35 test pattern on the AVSHD test disc.



Something is wrong here - You should not have anything but 100 on the vertical zoom. Just use the vertical gain in your projectors to go from top to bottom of your screen. I would just use the AR controls on your Radience to make any changes necessary for different inputs.The 178 seems about right for your 16:9 screen.


Bob


----------



## nashou66

Bob I am not using the full hight of the 1.78 Screen. I am keeping the aspect ratio to

2.40. But I have the rasters set to about the 4:3 they should be. I cant use the size control anymore to stretch the Vertical as this would also change the geometry. When I use the 190 zoom its too big but i found that 178 gets both images to the right location

for the blend zone. I then use the shift in either Blend unit to get the overlap just right

so the grids line up.


I am at my office now but will be going home for a bit before i work tonight, so I'll mess around a bit more with it all.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Bob I am not using the full hight of the 1.78 Screen. I am keeping the aspect ratio to
> 
> 2.40.



Does this mean that you have decided against the 1.78 blend and going with a 2.35 final AR and will then always have black bars at the top and bottom?


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17019634
> 
> 
> Does this mean that you have decided against the 1.78 blend and going with a 2.35 final AR and will then always have black bars at the top and bottom?
> 
> 
> Bob



Yes I never tried the 1.78 Blend, after doing some preliminary tests setting up the screen with one PJ for 1.78 it just doesn't make sense to do it, the PJ's would have to be further back and also the over lap would be huge. I am going to use the Black out material William K was selling over on Curts Site.


But i got closer this morning, much closer. I first re did the firmware( I found even re setting the settings a firmware update is needed to clear out old settings or glitches) Then I reloaded the 2 resolutions I use, the input res of [email protected] and the [email protected] . Then I kept the advanced menus off. I put up the the image at that resolution and noticed I did not have the one PJ lined up to well on the blend side. So i hung a string down the edge of that Pj's image with a few washers to keep it plum, this was now my straight guide line to follow while I converged and straightened out that edge, I then touched up the other PJ this way too. I still have more to do as there is a curve on one PJ I cant eliminate, i fear a complete reset for that needs to be done. Then once that was done i began the Zoom process and the other settings. I ended up with a 140 H Zoom and a 115 Edge blend on One PJ and 117 edge Blend on the other, It was still off a bit so i turned on the advanced menus to get the H Shift in the Windows menu, I split the difference between Pj's and added 1 pixel position on the left PJ and subtracted 1 pixel position on the right PJ. Then I adjusted Gamma and am now the closetst i have ever been!!!


But I still have work and I think I will do what Gino suggests and reduce the Raster size a bit all around, this will allow better convergence and less color drop off towards the edges, right now the blend sides of the rasters are about 1/4" I am thinking 1/2" all around maybe more. This will then require me to move the PJ's back and redo the set up.


But it looks much better and to think i still need to do CPD magnets and a full magnets set up, this is just a rough attempt to learn it all before I go for the final Install this Fall/Winter.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Yes I never tried the 1.78 Blend, after doing some preliminary tests setting up the screen with one PJ for 1.78 it just doesn't make sense to do it



Good - the 2.35 works out perfectly for a blend and maximizes the performance for movies.



> Quote:
> I ended up with a 140 H Zoom and a 115 Edge blend on One PJ and 117 edge Blend on the other


----------



## Boilermaker

Sorry - I accidently hit the REPLY button!



> Quote:
> I ended up with a 140 H Zoom and a 115 Edge blend on One PJ and 117 edge Blend on the other,



Athanasios - The values of blend width, zoom, and the physical width on the screen of the blend area need to be fixed in stone once you pick your blend percentage. They also have to be identical for both projectors.


The blend width is the number of rows of pixels of the blend area where the response is "rolled" off. It is related exactly to the physical width of the blend area on the screen as the same percentage of the total. This value also determines the zoom exactly.


I would recommend you set these values in your TVOne's and never change them. With the sole exception of the blend zone gamma, all other adjustment should be made with your projectors.


Good luck, and keep us posted!


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17022459
> 
> 
> Sorry - I accidently hit the REPLY button!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Athanasios - The values of blend width, zoom, and the physical width on the screen of the blend area need to be fixed in stone once you pick your blend percentage. They also have to be identical for both projectors.
> 
> 
> The blend width is the number of rows of pixels of the blend area where the response is "rolled" off. It is related exactly to the physical width of the blend area on the screen as the same percentage of the total. This value also determines the zoom exactly.
> 
> 
> I would recommend you set these values in your TVOne's and never change them. With the sole exception of the blend zone gamma, all other adjustment should be made with your projectors.
> 
> 
> Good luck, and keep us posted!
> 
> 
> Bob



Ok so I should set both Blend Zones to the same number either 115 or 117 right?


Oh And one more thing When Using the 1:1 pixel mapping on the new firmware is when the zoom values do not work like anything your used so far Bob, that is where I was able to use different values I think there was one more setting I had to activate to get all those controls.

because now I only have one place to use the Zoom finction, the 140 value, i do not see the H Zoom or V Zoom functions in the windows menu, I think I need to activate an advanced menu from in there correct? I am not infront of my units now to check, At work.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

While I'm sure there are other ways to get to the same end, I'll give you my recommendations. First I will assume that your output resolution to each projector is 1152X???. The vertical number doesn't matter for setup. I'll also assume that you have decided on a 10% blend as this will work and the math is the easiest.


If your screen is 12' wide, then the blend zone will be 7.2" wide (5% of the total). If the actual viewing surface of your screen is different, then use the appropriate value.


Use a string or painters tape to make two vertical lines 7.2" apart and exactly centered on your screen centerline - This will represent the blend zone, and will line up with the red and green adjustment lines from your two TVOnes.


Set the zoom value to 190% on both units which will allow a 10% blend.


Set the blend width to 115 as this is 10% of the 1152 each projector is getting.


I erroniously gave you incorrect values earlier as I was working from memory and forgot that I changed from 1920 to 1152


You're done. Obviously easier said than done.



Bob


----------



## nashou66

I actually am using 1064 and my viewing surface is 140" wide so i measured the blend zone at 6.5" approximately . But my zoom is only 140, maybe due to the 800 vertical i am using, I think I remember when i tried 1920x1080p it was closer to 190 zoom, it makes sense, since the 800 vertical value makes the image larger hight wise so less zooming is needed.

it worked much better this time around.


If using the new firmware with the added controls the traditional way in the blend set up guide is outdated as I have found out, unless you forego the new adjustment menu and do it the original way. If you have time you should mess around with the new firmware to see what i am talking about. I'll mess around tonight the way I have it to get the color matching down. I'll save the setting to my laptop then mess around with the way i was first doing it and tell you what menus and values I ended up with.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I actually am using 1064 and my viewing surface is 140" wide so i measured the blend zone at 6.5" approximately .



Very close - It should be exactly 7".



> Quote:
> But my zoom is only 140,



You should set it at 106, as this represents 10% of your total horizontal pixels width.



> Quote:
> maybe due to the 800 vertical i am using



It doesn't matter what vertical you are using as it has no effect at all on your blend setup.


Bob


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17025885
> 
> 
> Very close - It should be exactly 7".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should set it at 106, as this represents 10% of your total horizontal pixels width.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter what vertical you are using as it has no effect at all on your blend setup.
> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> Bob



I had zoom at 106 before but I think I had Aspect Adjust set to "advanced" then, now its just set for "simple" and this works with the 140 zoom. there are so many aspect controls here I think there is more than one way to get to the final results, that is why when i was using the Source Aspect Correct set to 1:1 i was able to zoom the V along with the H, what do you think?


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> what do you think?



Set it at 107 and don't use any vertical zoom at all. Set any AR ratio controls to default settings and use your Radiance for all aspect ratio changes that you will need as they will be global and far easier to use. If you use the AR changes on your TVOne's, they are not global and will affect the picture improperly.


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17026075
> 
> 
> Set it at 107 and don't use any vertical zoom at all. Set any AR ratio controls to default settings and use your Radiance for all aspect ratio changes that you will need as they will be global and far easier to use. If you use the AR changes on your TVOne's, they are not global and will affect the picture improperly.
> 
> 
> Bob



See, this is where you might be confused, i am not using any VP before the C2-2250, just the Moome MUX-HD. The C2-2250 is handling all aspect control.


I am going to head home for a few hours to mess around a bit and I'll post what settings I have in it now.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> See, this is where you might be confused, i am not using any VP before the C2-2250,



My bad - I thought you had a VP in front of the 2250's!


Bob


----------



## nashou66

I saved both Methods to the scalers, the simple way with out using the Aspect Adjust in advanced works best, when watching the Space shuttle scenes over the earth the land masses had movement , like shimmering, the previously not doing a good job there .

But if I left the Simple setting things were smooth as silk.


well here are some screen shots, the blend zone is still visible, I did more work on hte Convergence, that makes a big difference too on removing a visible blend zone. I bet I could spend hours on getting the alignment perfect as there are so many variables you can adjust for it to be perfect.



















*Here you can see the blend zone a bit, this is from the new Spears calibration disc.*



















I still have so much to do but this you have to remember is the rough set up on the floor before i move it all up top.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Looking good - I think it is time to move it to your ceiling!


Are you using Moome input cards with gamma boost? If so, is the boost adjustable?


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17027713
> 
> 
> Looking good - I think it is time to move it to your ceiling!
> 
> 
> Are you using Moome input cards with gamma boost? If so, is the boost adjustable?
> 
> 
> Bob



Thanks Bob, Actually I think the older Moome card I am Using is the weak Link.

Your not going to believe this but, this is a testament to the Tv-one units and how versatile they are. i have one going to a moome card and the other using the RGBHV analog outs, the Tv-ones analog outs seem cleaner and free of noise compared to the Moome first generation. I do plan on Getting the New Moomes witht he enhanced filtering Mike Parker told Moome to implement in the new ones he ships out. But since i am using the MUX not sure if I really need then, But I am a curious fellow and I want to see if there is any difference for my self. So no i am not using any gamma boost since only One PJ would get it. but TV-One also said that they have the protocols in the units but need the software so i hope that comes out soon. And it will be along 256 points I believe !!! Nice !!!!


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> the Tv-ones analog outs seem cleaner and free of noise compared to the Moome first generation.



That doesn't surprise me at all. I use RG-6 spec Canare cables to my projectors that have a 3Ghz rating. The quality of D/A converters in the TVOne's is top notch.


The problem with not having a scaler with built-in non linear gamma boost capability is that all the gamma boost circuits available are analog, which means we need two of them and there is no way to make sure they are set the same. Even slight differences become apparent in mixed dark scenes. I think I will scope them and get near identical voltages at low IRE's which should really help. Maybe this weekend.



> Quote:
> but TV-One also said that they have the protocols in the units but need the software so i hope that comes out soon.



Do you have any feeling on when they might do this? That would truly be awesome.


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17029208
> 
> 
> That doesn't surprise me at all. I use RG-6 spec Canare cables to my projectors that have a 3Ghz rating. The quality of D/A converters in the TVOne's is top notch.
> 
> 
> The problem with not having a scaler with built-in non linear gamma boost capability is that all the gamma boost circuits available are analog, which means we need two of them and there is no way to make sure they are set the same. Even slight differences become apparent in mixed dark scenes. I think I will scope them and get near identical voltages at low IRE's which should really help. Maybe this weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any feeling on when they might do this? That would truly be awesome.
> 
> 
> Bob



I think if we tie the two units together with the Option cable TV-ONE sells that any gamma curve we create could be sent to both units from one, Not sure how it would work, but I bet the units are pretty well matched output wise. This Might have to be something we discuss with the TV-One engineer.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

NIce Mike, Now I have a reference to set my contrast and Brightness to. I have been struggling with this on my Longbows since I got them, If i used the Pluge patterns on any disc i need to set brightness way down to between 20-30 with the higher range closer to 30 giving some compromise to black. I think i have to go back into the G2 and drive levels to get it right. If I start with the values for grey scale setup on Tims site everything is way off and then following his guide my blacks are washed out and i need to lower Brightness to those low levels, contrast i keep at 50 or can go up to 60 but then i need to lower Brightness closer to 20, way too low for any other Marquee I have worked with, maybe the Longbows are different?

Also you can see how much difference a 9" CRT is to the 8" CRT brightness wise, maybe that has something to do with it as well along with the smaller screen and its just a bit different frame i used but that looks awesome mike!!!


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17038105
> 
> 
> NIce Mike, Now I have a reference to set my contrast and Brightness to. I have been struggling with this on my Longbows since I got them, If i used the Pluge patterns on any disc i need to set brightness way down to between 20-30 with the higher range closer to 30 giving some compromise to black. I think i have to go back into the G2 and drive levels to get it right. If I start with the values for grey scale setup on Tims site everything is way off and then following his guide my blacks are washed out and i need to lower Brightness to those low levels, contrast i keep at 50 or can go up to 60 but then i need to lower Brightness closer to 20, way too low for any other Marquee I have worked with, maybe the Longbows are different?



What you described is expected. I'm surprised this is the first time I'm seeing this.


Here's what's happening and why you're only seeing it on your Longbows, which are the later version Marquees that has the changes made to the VIM.


When the 3 resistors (1.5meg - I think) are/were added to the VIM, it corrected a problem, but at the same time it changed things with the internal pattern, and that made using Tim's method not good to get you the same results you got from the earlier version Marquee.



On my Modified 02 VIM, I also started adding 3 resistors, but I'm using 2.2meg. The 2.2 meg is what's needed with the specific changes that I make. This change is what I mentioned over at Curt's forum when I mentioned "a recommend change" to the latest VIM.


---


With what you're seeing, you'll need to find the black level without using the internal pattern. Or you'll need to figure out a way to use the pattern to know when you're actually at Black/BBB. So a reference needs to happen. otherwise, the Pluge pattern could be off, because you first need to set the G2's properly while the brightness is set to 50.


Without using the internal test pattern, you can look into green CRT and adjust the G2 (for green) until the raster barely illuminates on the surface of the CRT. Do this with the brightness set at 50. Match red and blue later, but green will be your reference. Study the pattern from there, and learn it for reference.





> Quote:
> Also you can see how much difference a 9" CRT is to the 8" CRT brightness wise, maybe that has something to do with it as well along with the smaller screen and its just a bit different frame i used but that looks awesome mike!!!



You're running a blend, so you're almost using the entire tube surface, so brightness should be good using 8" tubes. And a smaller screen makes things even better.


Not sure why things look different now, other than I'm able to say I am using some gamma boost on the Moome card this time.


Maybe I should send you one of my VIM's and you can simply put it in one of your projectors and then post a picture here of what it look like with one set having a different VIM. And I'm also saying to do this without changing any adjustments.


I'm thinking it has something to do with the changes I've made to the VIM, but if you put things side by side, we'll both know for sure.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mp20748* /forum/post/17041871
> 
> 
> What you described is expected. I'm surprised this is the first time I'm seeing this.
> 
> 
> Here's what's happening and why you're only seeing it on your Longbows, which are the later version Marquees that has the changes made to the VIM.
> 
> 
> When the 3 resistors (1.5meg - I think) are/were added to the VIM, it corrected a problem, but at the same time it changed things with the internal pattern, and that made using Tim's method not good to get you the same results you got from the earlier version Marquee.
> 
> 
> 
> On my Modified 02 VIM, I also started adding 3 resistors, but I'm using 2.2meg. The 2.2 meg is what's needed with the specific changes that I make. This change is what I mentioned over at Curt's forum when I mentioned "a recommend change" to the latest VIM.
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> 
> With what you're seeing, you'll need to find the black level without using the internal pattern. Or you'll need to figure out a way to use the pattern to know when you're actually at Black/BBB. So a reference needs to happen. otherwise, the Pluge pattern could be off, because you first need to set the G2's properly while the brightness is set to 50.
> 
> *Without using the internal test pattern, you can look into green CRT and adjust the G2 (for green) until the raster barely illuminates on the surface of the CRT. Do this with the brightness set at 50. Match red and blue later, but green will be your reference. Study the pattern from there, and learn it for reference.*
> 
> What should I set the Contrast too then? 50 Also?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're running a blend, so you're almost using the entire tube surface, so brightness should be good using 8" tubes. And a smaller screen makes things even better.
> 
> 
> Not sure why things look different now, other than I'm able to say I am using some gamma boost on the Moome card this time.
> 
> *Maybe I should send you one of my VIM's and you can simply put it in one of your projectors and then post a picture here of what it look like with one set having a different VIM. And I'm also saying to do this without changing any adjustments.
> 
> 
> I'm thinking it has something to do with the changes I've made to the VIM, but if you put things side by side, we'll both know for sure.*
> 
> 
> Sure I'll PM you my Address and I can do a side by side comparison and see if your theory is correct, it just seamed weird to me to have the brightness sooooo low to get the pluge patterns BTB to not be visible and the Just above black to be barely visible.




Thanks Mike !!!!


----------



## nashou66

One more thing Mike, This is why I might be having a harder time having the Blend zone disappear using Ginos method of each color separate since the G2 levels may have been off from the get go. Also shouldn't both PJ's have the same or at least very similar Brightness and Contrast values?


So I'll look into the green tube with Brightness set at 50 and Contrast at 50 as well? And then raise G2 just till the raster begins to light up and then back off a few clicks.

Then I go to a pluge pattern and set BTB and WTW.


Is the value of the G2 voltage just at raster lighting up a predetermined value i could check with a meter or scope?


Athanasios


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> What should I set the Contrast too then? 50 Also?



Yes!


Always start out with 50/50. That sets your gain structure to mid point.


Raising the contrast not only increases the video gain, it also raises the noise floor, so 50 would represent a normal gain structure for the video part. So when the contrast has to be increased too much, you know you're also increasing noise. That noise is also a part of the blooming.


When/if the contrast is set too far below 50, you then know that your input or source is too strong. Or when dealing with modern HD signals, you may be in the wrong color space.




The key to best low end performance on a Marquee, is making sure the gain structure is within a reasonable window. That's the main reason I haven't been using gamma boost. Also If the contrast is too high, you'll loose dynamic range. You'll always want headroom for brighter scenes.



I wish you could make it to Williams this coming meet. I'll have the blends finished before the meet, but I could still show you three things to matching the two images for best blend, that has little or nothing to do with "blend zone adjustments" - I have that done already on Williams setup, and though the blend zone has not been tweaked, it's very hard to tell the difference between the two non blended images... there's three tweaks you need to do before adjusting the blend zone.


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17041968
> 
> 
> One more thing Mike, This is why I might be having a harder time having the Blend zone disappear using Ginos method of each color separate since the G2 levels may have been off from the get go. Also shouldn't both PJ's have the same or at least very similar Brightness and Contrast values?
> 
> 
> So I'll look into the green tube with Brightness set at 50 and Contrast at 50 as well? And then raise G2 just till the raster begins to light up and then back off a few clicks.
> 
> Then I go to a pluge pattern and set BTB and WTW.
> 
> 
> Is the value of the G2 voltage just at raster lighting up a predetermined value i could check with a meter or scope?
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Ignore the G2 numbers, but respect the contrast and brightness numbers. The G2 numbers could be different between the two projectors, and most likely would be.




The KEY to blending is first matching the two greens first. You'll want to first calibrate the Left projector (with the right one on - but muted). From there match the green on the right projector to the same G2 setting as what's on the left projector. If you don't have an eye for this, get you a LIGHT meter, the same that's used in photography. Put it right into at the lens and match the right to the left.


The Horizontal ramp pattern is the 3rd thing to do before blend zone...


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mp20748* /forum/post/17042072
> 
> 
> Ignore the G2 numbers, but respect the contrast and brightness numbers. The G2 numbers could be different between the two projectors, and most likely would be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The KEY to blending is first matching the two greens first. You'll want to first calibrate the Left projector (with the right one on - but muted). From there match the green on the right projector to the same G2 setting as what's on the left projector. If you don't have an eye for this, get you a LIGHT meter, the same that's used in photography. Put it right into at the lens and match the right to the left.
> 
> 
> The Horizontal ramp pattern is the 3rd thing to do before blend zone...



Ok, I have the EYE One Pro Probe, So I do the one PJ calibration and then

put the probe up against the green tube with the 100 IRE up and measure the luminance value, and mark it down. then i go to the Second PJ set up the same contrast and Brightness values as the calibrated PJ and then

raise or lower the G2 on the green till it matches in luminace value to the calibrated PJ.? IS this right?


Ok if it is whats the next Step.


Oh And iSent you an E-mail to your AOL account


Athanasios


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17042120
> 
> 
> Ok, I have the EYE One Pro Probe, So I do the one PJ calibration and then
> 
> put the probe up against the green tube with the 100 IRE up and measure the luminance value, and mark it down. then i go to the Second PJ set up the same contrast and Brightness values as the calibrated PJ and then
> 
> raise or lower the G2 on the green till it matches in luminace value to the calibrated PJ.? IS this right?
> 
> 
> Ok if it is whats the next Step.
> 
> 
> Oh And iSent you an E-mail to your AOL account
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Yep, that puts you on the right track. And once you match the greens, it's all down hill from there, unless you see geometry as being a challenge.


The second step is geometry. It's a must to start from full initialization. that way you'll start with linear grids that would not have banding issues...


Do that after green balance. And when you start on geometry, bring up a ten horizontal line grid. You'll need ten horizontal lines, because you'll do the geometry also first on the left, then on the right. But when you finish geometry on the left...


follow this closely - increase the vertical size 5% top and 5% bottom off the screen. With that, your 10 horizontal lines should be still visible on the screen.


Now to the right projector. With the same geometry pattern on both. Decrease the vertical size on the right projector 5% top and bottom. from there starting with the first center horizontal, match it to the left projectors center horizontal line. And from there moving out, move the next top from center line to match the second top from center line on the left projector. Do this until you've matched all the horizontal lines to the lines on the left projector. You must start from the center and move outwards.


You should have the ides from here...


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mp20748* /forum/post/17042201
> 
> 
> Yep, that puts you on the right track. And once you match the greens, it's all down hill from there, unless you see geometry as being a challenge.
> 
> 
> The second step is geometry. It's a must to start from full initialization. that way you'll start with linear grids that would not have banding issues...
> 
> 
> Do that after green balance. And when you start on geometry, bring up a ten horizontal line grid. You'll need ten horizontal lines, because you'll do the geometry also first on the left, then on the right. But when you finish geometry on the left...
> 
> 
> follow this closely - increase the vertical size 5% top and 5% bottom off the screen. With that, your 10 horizontal lines should be still visible on the screen.
> 
> 
> Now to the right projector. With the same geometry pattern on both. Decrease the vertical size on the right projector 5% top and bottom. from there starting with the first center horizontal, match it to the left projectors center horizontal line. And from there moving out, move the next top from center line to match the second top from center line on the left projector. Do this until you've matched all the horizontal lines to the lines on the left projector. You must start from the center and move outwards.
> 
> 
> You should have the ides from here...



Ok I think I got it, But Do you use the internal Grids first to line up Both Pj's then go to a pattern from an external source? the reason I ask is because sometimes with the given external resolution grid I plan to use the internal Grids become Huge and go way over the tube sides.


I understand the matching of the lines, are you using all geometry controls to do this or just size and Phase, I found i need to use C and S linearity and if i did not have the grids plum i needed some top and bottom skew to move the lines that little bit to get closer. I admit my geometry is a bit off and it can be seen during movement across the blend zone.


Now your doing all the alignment with only the PJ control and none from the Processor right mike?


Athanasios


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17042415
> 
> 
> Ok I think I got it, But Do you use the internal Grids first to line up Both Pj's then go to a pattern from an external source?



No, you never use the internal grids when blending. You'll need an external full grid for convergence and one for setup, which would be your 6 to 10 horizontal line grid.


The 6 to 10 line horizontal grid is for initial geometry setup (left) and matching the right projector to the left. You'll want to start with the center grid when matching the right to the left, because you'll be moving out from the center. using that method you'll less likely induce banding.




> Quote:
> the reason I ask is because sometimes with the given external resolution grid I plan to use the internal Grids become Huge and go way over the tube sides



That's the same problem we're now having at Williams. In order for me to align to right to the left and deal with the blend-zone, I'll need aspects correct, with the grid perfect on the screen. This was not easy with Blendzilla. So when we return, we have to work out a way to get that grid in proper aspect on the screen.




> Quote:
> I understand the matching of the lines, are you using all geometry controls to do this or just size and Phase, I found i need to use C and S linearity and if i did not have the grids plum i needed some top and bottom skew to move the lines that little bit to get closer. I admit my geometry is a bit off and it can be seen during movement across the blend zone.



No, at this point, we're still working after full initialization with NO adjustments being made to geometry at all, only size and phase - that will come later when you tighten up the geometry. For now you need to work with creating an even area for blending that does not have banding issues, because any amount of banding is not good for the blend zone. Once you get the blend zone workable, it's then that you can go back and tweak geometry linearities (C/S), but the good thing is, it should not effect the blend zone much at all when you do. That's why it's important to setup the blend zone first, meaning make sure the blend zone area are matched first. The actual blending should be done later.




> Quote:
> Now your doing all the alignment with only the PJ control and none from the Processor right mike?



Yes, the only thing we need from the processor at this point is aspect and test patterns.


When you get the green balance right, it's then that you'll see perfect fades to blacks, which is a real problem on blends when the two projects are showing two different low levels, but the method when done right would make it perfect. It also makes for perfect color matching between the two screens, which is also one of the biggest headaches, but when done right, it works out well.


For the absolute best color matching, you'll need a 20 step horizontal gray scale pattern. We'll get to that later when you get to this part of the setup.


But keep in mind, everything you'll be doing after your "full initialization" depends on how well you setup the left (reference) projector, and especially how well you set the cutoff point on green and the balancing of the two greens -- this is the foundation of Blending!


----------



## nashou66

Above post moved from screenshot war thread since they have pertinent info for blenders and set up especially Marquee guys, but i am sure it could pertain to any PJ.



Ok So i did the matching of the colors, it was not to hard with the eye method, but like

Bob stated there is a drop of at the edges of where the blend is going to be, and with out getting those perfect the blend zone will always be visible, is this where i need to go into the

Zone contrast adjustment and work on the edges in the blend zone? and if so I assume i need to have the blend function on as to match intensity of the two seperate edges in the blend zone.


Also I assume i should do this with any gamma in the blend zone off.


Athanasios


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17051094
> 
> 
> Ok So i did the matching of the colors, it was not to hard with the eye method, but like
> 
> Bob stated *there is a drop of at the edges of where the blend is going to be, and with out getting those perfect the blend zone will always be visible, is this where i need to go into the
> 
> Zone contrast adjustment and work on the edges in the blend zone? and if so I assume i need to have the blend function on as to match intensity of the two seperate edges in the blend zone.
> 
> 
> Also I assume i should do this with any gamma in the blend zone off*
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Of course you're going to see a weakness at the blend zone, but if you're following what I've been writing so far, don't worry about the blend zone at this point, because it's always last.


Almost everything else has to be at or near perfection before you do blending. If both sides are not equal or balanced, the blend zone will be a problem.


No contrast modulation (I don't use it myself) or gamma boost (not at the projector) until later. And when/if gamma boost, it should be done at the processor. You don't want to have any split adjustments at or near the projector, and If you're using the Moome internal cards, you'll need to disable the gamma and contrast in the cards, which require removing three resistors for gamma and jumping a resistor for contrast (not 100% sure of leaving it in or taking it out), but if you order or upgrade your Moome card, ask him about also disabling these features.


The better you are at balancing the two images, the less you'll need contrast modulation on the edge, because the two outer edges of the images will be rolled off from the blend unit (overlapped), so that would move the actual edge away from what you're seeing now. And that's why you'll need everything else near perfection to make those two match up better for blending. So the blend zone itself is not color critical at this point...


The foundation is critical, that's why blending is last. And geometry IS very important in the blend zone, just as making sure you also do away with banding, which would be a distortion for the blend zone.


When you finally finish and get everything done (including blend zone) check your blend zone, using a B/W image!


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mp20748* /forum/post/17052207
> 
> 
> Of course you're going to see a weakness at the blend zone, but if you're following what I've been writing so far, don't worry about the blend zone at this point, because it's always last.
> 
> 
> Almost everything else has to be at or near perfection before you do blending. If both sides are not equal or balanced, the blend zone will be a problem.
> 
> 
> No contrast modulation (I don't use it myself) or gamma boost (not at the projector) until later. And when/if gamma boost, it should be done at the processor. You don't want to have any split adjustments at or near the projector, and If you're using the Moome internal cards, you'll need to disable the gamma and contrast in the cards, which require removing three resistors for gamma and jumping a resistor for contrast (not 100% sure of leaving it in or taking it out), but if you order or upgrade your Moome card, ask him about also disabling these features.
> 
> 
> The better you are at balancing the two images, the less you'll need contrast modulation on the edge, because the two outer edges of the images will be rolled off from the blend unit (overlapped), so that would move the actual edge away from what you're seeing now. And that's why you'll need everything else near perfection to make those two match up better for blending. So the blend zone itself is not color critical at this point...
> 
> 
> The foundation is critical, that's why blending is last. And geometry IS very important in the blend zone, just as making sure you also do away with banding, which would be a distortion for the blend zone.
> 
> 
> When you finally finish and get everything done (including blend zone) check your blend zone, using a B/W image!




Ok I have to admit, I got excited and have not nailed down geometry in the Blend Zone area yet







I will work on that tonight I promiss. From past geometry session i _have_ noticed the Blend Zone fade more as It got closer to matching, so I will work on that before all other aspects. One thing I think I need to do that Gino mentions, is to move the image in a bit from the edges of the tube, Right now I am about 1/4-1/2 inch from the edge I think another 1/8-1/4 inch should help with the roll off where CCM wont be needed as much as I have it now. I guess I skiped the Convergence and geometry matching as its the most time consuming part of the set up and If i move the raster in a wee bit more I will have to move the Pj's back and re measure everything on Screen. I'll work on this tonight.


Athanasios


----------



## donaldk

Dear Donald,


Below please find the latest news from TV One Europe. If you have questions or for more information, please contact Debbie Heath at +44 (0) 1843 873311 or via email at: [email protected] .




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Edge Blending made easy with new dedicated unit from TV One


MARGATE, Kent UK, 24th August 2009 - TV One announces the release of the new C2-2450A Edge Blender. This powerful and dedicated edge-blending unit is based on TV One's exclusive CORIO®2 Technology and has been developed specifically to facilitate quick and easy set up of otherwise complex edge-blending applications.


A single DVI or RGB source at virtually any resolution and refresh rate is simultaneously fed into two or more separate C2-2450A units and using their integral processing engines, this video is prepared and output to multiple projectors and blended seamlessly together to create larger, brighter displays.


Set up and operation is made simple with dedicated front panel push buttons for various functions including turning the edge-blend guidelines on and off and also for switching to a full black or white output. The black output assists with the black level adjustment, whilst the white output aids in gamma correction to compensate for many of the problems faced when blending projectors. All functions can be controlled via the front panel, infrared, RS-232 or IP. An easy-to-use edge-blending software tool is also freely available allowing for even simpler operation of the C2-2450A.


Ten user defined presets are available to customise settings for various applications and due to the unit's non-volatile memory these settings are retained even when power is switched off. Pixel accurate scaling is available to support any edge-blend application with images from multiple units aligned vertically, horizontally or both to create unusual displays. The unit is housed in a desktop case and an optional rackmount kit holds one or two units.


This brand new product will be on display throughout the entirety of the IBC 2009 Exhibition held September 11-15 at the Amsterdam RAI on the TV One Stand 7.F10. For more information visit www.tvone.eu or contact the Sales and Technical Department on +44 (0) 1843 873311, [email protected] .


Click here to download MSWord version of press release...



###


To download an accompanying image suitable for publishing along with this news release, please use link www.tvone.co.uk/press_photos.shtml 


Contact Debbie Heath at TV One Ltd, +44 (0) 1843 873311, [email protected] , Continental Approach, Westwood Industrial Estate, Margate, CT9 4JG, UK, T: +44 (0) 1843 873311, F: +44 (0) 1843 873312, [email protected] , www.tvone.eu 



Founded in 1984, TV One celebrate 25 years of production in 2009.


TV One specializes in video, audio and multimedia processing equipment, based on its proprietary CORIO® video conversion technology. Located in Margate, UK with offices across the globe, TV One manufactures a complete line-up of products for the professional and broadcast video market.

TV One has operations in Europe, USA, Taiwan, China and Latin America.


----------



## nashou66

Hmm Seems a new unit is out deidicated to just Edge Blending with no Keyers or overlay features, this should be more affordable than the current units. I'll get pricing and other info for those intrested.











Nashou


----------



## nashou66

UPDATE ON MY PROGRESS:


Mike your are 100% right, geometry , symmetry , convergence and linearity in the blend zone are critical for a good blend. I redid the magnets on my Left PJ to get the red grid closer to the greens without having to use convergence to move it closer, only thing is my red Grid is slightly larger, I may try to use the Width coils on the HDM to bring it in but a the mounting of deflection coil on the Bell of the tube might be why its larger, i have noticed if they are not mounted exactly the same the grid sizes can differ.


So what I did was start all over on that side of the screen, I measured out the 4x3 screen size for the 140 inch wide 2.39 screen i am shooting for. This came out to a 58.5" tall screen so multiplying this by 1.33 i got 77.9" width for the 4x3 screen i will converge the left PJ to. I did this convergence with no use of C or S linearity. After I was done with Green convergence I noticed two thing I need to address, the Blue's grid needs to be centered better to match the greens/Reds I have one corner in the blend zone going over the edge, figures the one color i felt i could possibly avoid doing the magnets on is in need of mechanical alignment. The other issue is the Green, the grid has a dip or kink in it between the the center convergence zone and the next one over, this makes it impossible to straighten out it almost looks like the tech tip on Tims site







but obviously not so defined, its maybe deflected about a 1/2" off the surrounding grid, its annoying if there is a straight line in the image.

not sure if I want to get into moving the convergence and deflection coils at this point. So now I have to move the Blue on that PJ.


I left the Right PJ alone magnet wise and its at its stock adjustments and measured the screen to the same width as the left side and turned off the

left PJ and did a convergence of the right all by itself, i know its not the way you did it but I wanted to converge with no banding and I was successful on the left Pj so i did the same here. I got it almost as good as the left just a bit off, but when I turned on the Left PJ i was surprised at how close the two were on the horizontal convergence. now this is where i think I might be doing something not 100% correct. On the vertical grid lines I converged only the right PJ to match the lefts, but after it was not perfect in the zone with actual material, So on the AVSHD calibration disc they have a grid pattern with very small grids, about 1.5" in size on my screen. With this up I see that some more convergence needs to be done in the blend zone where the larger grids showed it to be perfect. So I will work on this later today.


Now having said all that I must say this is the least amount of blend zone I was able to see!!! its amazing what perfect convergence can do, but there is some movement waviness in the blend zone and this I hope is due to the miss-convergence of the PJ's and not Linearity issues, I hate doing Linearity!!!


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Ok here are the latest shots from Narnia: Prince Caspian.


I still have some issues you see in moving shots across the blend zone which is telling me i need to redo the whole thing again. Linearity must be perfect across the entire screen. So another complete initialization is to be done again, plus the Blue magnetics and a touch up on the others wont hurt either. If i can get them all centered while using the input resolution it will make it much easier on the electronics.





























Athanasios


----------



## overclkr

Damn that is looking really good Athanasios!


Cliff


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *overclkr* /forum/post/17061123
> 
> 
> Damn that is looking really good Athanasios!
> 
> 
> Cliff



Thanks Cliff!!


With still shots yes it is looking good, but it still has some issues, I realized right after I took that screen shot earlier today, that last night, when I redid the set up from scratch with the source feeding it I had some size adjustments in the blend units I was messing with before the initialization to get things to fit. So that might be( I HOPE) the heat wave affect I am seeing in the blend zone as things pass through it or as the PJ pans across.


Athanasios


----------



## overclkr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17061633
> 
> 
> Thanks Cliff!!
> 
> 
> With still shots yes it is looking good, but it still has some issues, I realized right after I took that screen shot earlier today, that last night, when I redid the set up from scratch with the source feeding it I had some size adjustments in the blend units I was messing with before the initialization to get things to fit. So that might be( I HOPE) the heat wave affect I am seeing in the blend zone as things pass through it or as the PJ pans across.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Don't hold back brother. Show me more. Those 8500's are looking REAL GOOD.










Looks like I've got competition.


----------



## cinema mad

Wow looking good Athan, Very nice shots mate...


What colour space are you inputing into your CRT Twins ? & are you using the Moome HDMI internal cards...


So these TVone Edge blenders can output digital component YcBcR 4:4:4 through DVI-D ?...


Do you know if TVone are planing on ever releasing A HDMI ver so we can output 10/12bit YcBcR 4:2:2 into the Moome HDMI internal cards ?...


Cheers....


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cinema mad* /forum/post/17064812
> 
> 
> Wow looking good Athan, Very nice shots mate...
> 
> 
> What colour space are you inputing into your CRT Twins ? & are you using the Moome HDMI internal cards...
> 
> 
> So these TVone Edge blenders can output digital component YcBcR 4:4:4 through DVI-D ?...
> 
> 
> Do you know if TVone are planing on ever releasing A HDMI ver so we can output 10/12bit YcBcR 4:2:2 into the Moome HDMI internal cards ?...
> 
> 
> Cheers....



Thanks Mad, Actually i am trying a Hybrid Blend method for now, I had my one moome card in my ceiling mounted marquee and left it there to watch a movie with the little lady, so My blend has one Moome card on the right PJ and its RGBHV from the Tv-One to the left PJ. Both give a good picture

but it hink the RGBHV is a bit sharper. That could be due to a better mechanical set up on that PJ or because the Moome card I have is the older version 1.2 .I am using the Moome MUX out to the Tv-ones since it can act as a splitter, it had one DVI and one HDMI out. Its doing the RGB conversion, either the version I have doesn't have the firmware to bypass YUV or its broken. I plan to send it back to Moome to have a look. But the C2-2250's do look great color wise and I don't see any major differences between the two feeds to the PJ's. If i have time today I will do another complete set up this time with a mechanical magnetic set up on the green and blue. the Blue is not centered when I have the image feed going to it but the internals are dead on, i think it best to use the magnets to center the fed image rather than the electronic adjustment since i'll be converting all input resolutions to the C2-2250 to the same [email protected] or 96hz output. Also I noticed while ramping up the focus on the green that the grids move, so I need to address that also. I wish there was a way to remove the plastic tube covers

while doing the magnetic set up on the marquee getting your hands around the focus coil to move it around is a *****!!!! I should put the franken yokes on, bt I still think my Barkenstien yokes might be better but more testing is needed on my now not set up test machine's.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Well I redid the set up but with out the magnets, I was thinking about the motion artifacts in the Blend zone and figured it had to be linearity. So i pulled out the ruler and began measuring The circles were way off on the right sides of both PJ's so I began using the C and S linearity to get them as close as possible then i also used the Vertical Linearity to center the image. vertically as I realized it was off and so were the Grid squares in size from top to bottom. One thing I did different on the Scaler side was while doing the convergence i kept all adjustments off so the entire image was on each side of the screen, i did each PJ individually with no convergence in the zone between the two. After I was done i figured the two inner circles in the corners of the grids shold be close in over lap, well they were apart by at least an inch an a half. I guess this is to be expected with no zoom involved. But from past blend attempts I noticed that in the source menu there was a 1:1 pixel selection and from memory it zoomed the image quite a bit. So when I selected it i noticed that the image zoomed right to where it should be for a blend, it was off ever so slightly. So with out going into the windows adjustments where the zoom is( except for the image pan for each side to line up at the outer edge) brought up both sides of the image and began to converge the overlap zone to each other measuring the circle all around as i went to make sure no linearity was needed, it was on the right PJ to bring in the one side of the circle as it was about 3/4 inch larger in radius toward the right side. I fixed this as best I could with out altering the rest of the placement of the image. I then put up the smaller 1.5 inch grids frm the AVSHD disc to to the final touch up. Now i went into the Keyers for the blending and turned on each side of the blend and then turned on the edge blend guides and lined up the green to the reds to make it yellow. I wound up with a 207 pixel blend zone. And now there is no heat wave effect in the blend zone and the zone is almost completely gone maybe about 90% there!!!


Here a few pics of the results, i think the contrast modulation needs some touch up as well as the color matching but damn it looks the best i have seen so far.










































































Still More work to do but I am learning a lot, thanks to Mike Parker and Bob Stephan for there help with all this, And Gino too for the color Matching Idea.


Athanasios


----------



## cinema mad

Mate Blending is the go,

Allows you to use more of the tube face, more head room in regards to bandwidth, Brighter image off the screen And huge scope screens.. I would love to give it A go one day..


How many ft lumens are you reading off your screen with the blend??



I fined it interesting that you are getting A sharper image out of the projector running 5BNC, but as you point out there may be other reasons why...


Cheers...


----------



## Gino AUS

Very nice Athanasios! Did you find using 1:1 pixel mapping improved sharpness?


----------



## Boilermaker

All these recent posts have got me all turned on again, so I'm going to start from scratch again instead of tweaking every time I get a new idea on improving things.


The main reason is that I want to get my analog gamma boosts as close to each other as possible as this is very important. After I get my left projector set up the way I want it, I want to match the boost on the right one.


I think the best way is to use a horizontal gray scale bars signal with the blend temporarily turned off and then scope the green signal to match as close as possible. This way both signal should be identical.


Does this make sense, or does anyone have a better idea?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/17071340
> 
> 
> Very nice Athanasios! Did you find using 1:1 pixel mapping improved sharpness?



Gino, to tell you the truth I have not even done the individual Zone focus for each color or Schleimfluge yet!!!! But It made getting the blend zone right a lot easier, and this is the first time the 1 on 1 off lines are not bunched up every few inches on either the horizontal or vertical, i always had one not right. I am not sure how it works but I selected it and it automatically zoomed the image very close to where the blend zone just needed a bit of physical movement and convergence to get it to match up. Very Nice !!!







I like it. I think it takes your output resolution and figurers out your zoom and blend size and sets it up for you, all i had to do after was align it all up.


next is to nail the colors and grayscale. I now realize that linearity and perfect geometry in the blend zone is most important from all the trial and many errors i have had, it all came down to that, because even after getting my colors as close as possible the blend zone was less than desirable and now with no other color alterations its almost gone!!!!


Bob nail your geometry and linearity in the blend zone and maybe about 75-100 pixels out from each edge of the blend zone and it will go much easier.

My outer most edges for some reason I could not get to match the rest without causing the blend zone area to be off so I had to compromise. regarding gamma, set up both with no Gamma at all, I would then add a little to each as you go, but if you could use your VP to do both at the same time it be best i would assume.


Nashou


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Bob nail your geometry and linearity in the blend zone



Nashou, I never had a problem with the geometry as I set up the first projector in a conventional fashion with zooming already preset and then just set up the second one to line up on a fine external hatch pattern. The problem I am having is getting a perfect match of gamma boost since I am stuck with two separate gamma boost circuits.


Since my VP does not have low end gamma boost capability it is necessary to have two separate analog based boxes. Low end gamma boosting increases the rate at which the video signal is increased as you move out of black, but levels off to be equal at white (hopefully!). Any differences between the two will become apparent in a blended setup.


My thought was to use a gray scale step pattern and view them on my scope as I adjusted the second box to match the values of the first. I guess the easiest guestimate would be to take a resistance reading on the pot of the first box and match it with the second one - Assuming the tolerances of the two circuits are pretty close - It should work.


If you intend on using gamma boost and your VP does not have it, you will have to do something similar.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Tim in Phoenix




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17058713
> 
> 
> UPDATE ON MY PROGRESS:
> 
> 
> Mike your are 100% right, geometry , symmetry , convergence and linearity in the blend zone are critical for a good blend. I redid the magnets on my Left PJ to get the red grid closer to the greens without having to use convergence to move it closer, only thing is my red Grid is slightly larger, I may try to use the Width coils on the HDM to bring it in but a the mounting of deflection coil on the Bell of the tube might be why its larger, i have noticed if they are not mounted exactly the same the grid sizes can differ.
> 
> 
> So what I did was start all over on that side of the screen, I measured out the 4x3 screen size for the 140 inch wide 2.39 screen i am shooting for. This came out to a 58.5" tall screen so multiplying this by 1.33 i got 77.9" width for the 4x3 screen i will converge the left PJ to. I did this convergence with no use of C or S linearity. After I was done with Green convergence I noticed two thing I need to address, the Blue's grid needs to be centered better to match the greens/Reds I have one corner in the blend zone going over the edge, figures the one color i felt i could possibly avoid doing the magnets on is in need of mechanical alignment. The other issue is the Green, the grid has a dip or kink in it between the the center convergence zone and the next one over, this makes it impossible to straighten out it almost looks like the tech tip on Tims site
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but obviously not so defined, its maybe deflected about a 1/2" off the surrounding grid, its annoying if there is a straight line in the image.
> 
> not sure if I want to get into moving the convergence and deflection coils at this point. So now I have to move the Blue on that PJ.
> 
> 
> I left the Right PJ alone magnet wise and its at its stock adjustments and measured the screen to the same width as the left side and turned off the
> 
> left PJ and did a convergence of the right all by itself, i know its not the way you did it but I wanted to converge with no banding and I was successful on the left Pj so i did the same here. I got it almost as good as the left just a bit off, but when I turned on the Left PJ i was surprised at how close the two were on the horizontal convergence. now this is where i think I might be doing something not 100% correct. On the vertical grid lines I converged only the right PJ to match the lefts, but after it was not perfect in the zone with actual material, So on the AVSHD calibration disc they have a grid pattern with very small grids, about 1.5" in size on my screen. With this up I see that some more convergence needs to be done in the blend zone where the larger grids showed it to be perfect. So I will work on this later today.
> 
> 
> Now having said all that I must say this is the least amount of blend zone I was able to see!!! its amazing what perfect convergence can do, but there is some movement waviness in the blend zone and this I hope is due to the miss-convergence of the PJ's and not Linearity issues, I hate doing Linearity!!!
> 
> 
> Athanasios




It is imperative that raster heights and raster widths all match with convergence nulled. Heights are matched using the service menu, widths are matched with the HDM coils (use a plastic hex tool). Before that, you need to confirm that the convergence yokes are leveled to the scan yokes; when that is correct the zones will move straight up and down and not on a slant.


----------



## nashou66

Tim After the second initialization the dip i had was much less, also the linearity adjustment sorts "snaped" away the rest? I guess it might have been a adjustment

still being given to that zone even though i did the re set? Not sure what was causing it but its gone now.


Bob I understand what you mean about the Gamma, not sure if just measuring the resistance of the pot since that would assume all other components after

have the same affect or values being applied to the output. i guess scoping the stair step pattern I posted earlier and matching the other Gamma box to the same value would be your best bet. Are you using the Box 1040?


I'm glad all these post got people excited about Blending again as it ddi when Tim pioneered all the Buzz a couple years ago. I might get a set of the C2-4250 to play with. If it has the 1:1 pixel matching it be a great unit. And Bob once Tv-One gets the 256 point gamma curve utility added tot he Corio2 suit of programs we'll be all set!!! I think they are going to add Color management to the suit as well . the gamma utility sounds extra cool since you can put in values you measured from say Calman or HCFR and put them into the program, then it draws the curve and with your mouse you drag the curve along the 256 points it interpolates from your readings and allows you to make your own curve, so you can bump the curve out at the lower IRE's to what you want , load those values into the VP and see the results, it be neat if you could watch the results in real time , but i am not sure if this will be the case. possible via the CC-300 control units/joystick but that is an expensive unit to have for the amount of times you would actually need it.


Athnaasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> i guess scoping the stair step pattern I posted earlier and matching the other Gamma box to the same value would be your best bet. Are you using the Box 1040?



Thats my intention - however my VP50Pro just "crapped out" on me so I am without! Bad news is that DVDO's service is practically non-existent. No one returns phone calls and no one returns e-mails.


I


> Quote:
> might get a set of the C2-4250 to play with.



I can't find any info on these new units - just pictures. Do you have a cut sheet on them?


Thanks,

Bob


Yes, I'm using a pair of the Box 1040's.


----------



## nashou66

Bob that Sucks!! get a used Lumagen HDP or HDQ!! great CS and Gamma!!!!!! sell your box 1040's. But I am not using any VP besides the Tv-Ones, i am using Moomes MUX before, it has 4 HDMI inputs and strips HDCP so I can use the analog outs to the marquee's. And the tv-ones you can set up many input memories so its not an issue.


The C2-2450 are not on the web site yet, just a press release on the UK tv-One site.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> get a used Lumagen HDP or HDQ!!



Problem is that I REALLY like HDSDI. I realy want a one box solution - someday TVONe will upgrade their flagship 2 channel scalers to match the bandwidth of the little guys we have with multi-point control, many inputs including HDSDI, and the game is over!


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> i am using Moomes MUX before, it has 4 HDMI inputs and strips HDCP so I can use the analog outs to the marquee's.



So, are you using the Moome MUX as an input switcher, splitting the DVI or HDMI output to the two 2250's and then the analog outs to your projectors?


As I remember, you set up your 2250's at 72 Hz, so I'm assuming your BluRay is running 24fps. How do you like the motion with this in comparison to 60Hz?


Also, do you switch to 60Hz out of your 2250's when you use your cable or satellite box as a source?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17084206
> 
> 
> So, are you using the Moome MUX as an input switcher, splitting the DVI or HDMI output to the two 2250's and then the analog outs to your projectors?
> 
> 
> As I remember, you set up your 2250's at 72 Hz, so I'm assuming your BluRay is running 24fps. How do you like the motion with this in comparison to 60Hz?
> 
> 
> Also, do you switch to 60Hz out of your 2250's when you use your cable or satellite box as a source?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



yes I am using the MUX as a switcher but for now I only have used the Blu ray player and a lap top to run Align software. i have not hooked up the Sat box or Lumagen yet but I think i might try it at some point, I would only need it for my SDI DVD player. I might also see how it would do to convert the sat box signal to [email protected] and then have the C2-2250 do the refresh rate upscaling as the 1:1 pixel is very good. 72 hz is very smooth compared to 60hz.



Athanasios


----------



## nenez

I have bought 2 corio product C2-7210. And i want to use them for 3 projectors in horizontal. How to connect that 2 corio product so i can edge blend the 3 projector ?? I try to use "edge blender tool" but the software can not connect to my corio. Please help me..... Thanks before n God Bless


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nenez* /forum/post/17085060
> 
> 
> I have bought 2 corio product C2-7210. And i want to use them for 3 projectors in horizontal. How to connect that 2 corio product so i can edge blend the 3 projector ?? I try to use "edge blender tool" but the software can not connect to my corio. Please help me..... Thanks before n God Bless



welcome to the forum, here is a link to a quick set up guide for using the 7200 series units edge blending Edge Blend Guide 


the edge blend tool doesnt work to well unless you connect both units and se tup the com ports, its not really needed as you still will have other adjustments to do that the tool does not address it is there to just get you started. i assume your using digital Projectors correct?

First you have to line up all three PJ's so that they have a grid pattern lined up perfectly. then input the image you wish to belnd and zoom each unit/Projector till you get the amount and section of the image you want on all Pj's the left and right Pj's you will have to pan the image all the way to one side or the other, the middle Pj you would have to pan the image to a point where the over laps line up to the other two Projectors. Once you play around with it you'll understand how they work. on the middle PJ you will have to turn on the left and right edge blend where onthe other two you will just need the one side blending. its quite intuitive after a few tries at it.


Athanasios


----------



## nenez

Thanks for the advice, and i will set up them in the next week. I will inform the progress...







thanks again and God bless


----------



## nenez

Hi...


Why i can not make communication between computer and corio C2-7210 using RS232 port?


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nenez* /forum/post/17099619
> 
> 
> Hi...
> 
> 
> Why i can not make communication between computer and corio C2-7210 using RS232 port?



What cable are you using? It should not be a Null modem cable. Also some

USB to RS-232 cable converters have issues or need the latest drivers check that as well also.


But honestly for the edge controls and adjustments the front panel is easier once you learn the menu structure, only for the resolution editor a PC is really needed.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I used the 1:1 pixel mapping in the source menu and no Zooming, it seams this does it for you automatically according to your output resolution, very cool indeed. I have not tried it with other resolutions just the 1063x800 to each Pj, I ended up with a 207 pixel blend zone.



Athanasios,


I was too busy looking at your sc reen shots, so just now really read your post which gave me a couple of questions:


1 - You said you did not set any zoom at all - Did it automatically set a proper zoom somehow and if so how did it know what you wanted to do? Obviously it worked!


2 - Did the zoom value get set when you set the blend width, and if so, what caused you to select 207 pixels which is a little less than 11%?


3 - I don't remember seeing a 1:1 pixel map option in my menu - Is it part of the latest firmware update you did that I didn't do?


4 - Don't you find visible scan lines at 800 lines somewhat objectionable, and if so have you considered bumping that to 1200 lines?


5 - Have you tried a video based source yet to see what 72Hz refresh looks like - You could use a BD or regular DVD that was video sourced such as one of the HBO movies. I'm dying of curiosity.


Since my VP is back at ABT getting fixed, I thought I would use this time to make any changes that I have been thinking about.


Screen shots are looking awesome - Glad to see you are starting to enjoy what blending can do for pq!!!


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17115680
> 
> 
> Athanasios,
> 
> 
> I was too busy looking at your sc reen shots, so just now really read your post which gave me a couple of questions:
> 
> 
> 1 - You said you did not set any zoom at all - Did it automatically set a proper zoom somehow and if so how did it know what you wanted to do? Obviously it worked!
> 
> *I'm at work now So i cant give specific answers but i think since i used the exact ration resolution or 1064x800(1:33) it knew how much to zoom for that res? not sure....*
> 
> 
> 2 - Did the zoom value get set when you set the blend width, and if so, what caused you to select 207 pixels which is a little less than 11%?
> 
> *Not in front of my units, but It did get set in the windows menu after i set the 1:1 pixel setting. I think the blend zone number got set to? i dont remember for sure, but Andy Haliday also told me to go even bigger by 2 inches past the blend zone lines to take away the "intensity" issues i had . It helped a bit but it also works going in a bit, i guess you can just play with it to your liking .*
> 
> 
> 3 - I don't remember seeing a 1:1 pixel map option in my menu - Is it part of the latest firmware update you did that I didn't do?
> 
> *It might be due to the new firmware, its in the Source menu.*
> 
> 
> 4 - Don't you find visible scan lines at 800 lines somewhat objectionable, and if so have you considered bumping that to 1200 lines?
> 
> *I see no scan lines really, i never understood how you saw them, i mean they are there but i have to get very close to the screen to see them, also i still have not nailed focus so that could be it.*
> 
> 
> 5 - Have you tried a video based source yet to see what 72Hz refresh looks like - You could use a BD or regular DVD that was video sourced such as one of the HBO movies. I'm dying of curiosity.
> 
> *I think the spears and Munsi disc and DVE has some video based clips and when going through all those it looked fine to my eye, there were some scenes that had slight judder but i really had to look for it and it was more on vertical pans than horizontal.*
> 
> 
> Since my VP is back at ABT getting fixed, I thought I would use this time to make any changes that I have been thinking about.
> 
> 
> Screen shots are looking awesome - Glad to see you are starting to enjoy what blending can do for pq!!!
> 
> *Thanks Bob, i am now in the process of setting up the Superstrutt to go up top!!! trying to figure out placement for adjustability in the future if i go to a 9 inch upgrade once the 8 incher's wear out. once they are uo top i plan to bring the 9500LC in tot he theater ina floor mount set up and compare the 9 inch single to the blend, but to be fair i'll have to put the new tubes in it.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob


*Athanasios*


----------



## Boilermaker

Athanasios - Thanks for your response.



> Quote:
> It might be due to the new firmware, its in the Source menu.



Since it is not in my Source menu, I'll load the new firmware this weekend.



> Quote:
> it looked fine to my eye,



Thats all I need to hear! I ony spend about 5% of time on video sources (Sports) and the rest on film, so I'll gladly make a small sacrifice on video for the enhanced smoothness of film.



> Quote:
> compare the 9 inch single to the blend,



I can save you the time - There is NO COMPARISON! It is not even close. I was happy for many years with my cherry PG10, but once I saw Tim's first blend setup I knew this was something special and I had to have it. I gave the 10PG to my daughter as soon as I got my blend going.



Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

Bob, just checked the menu's on the units, the zoom for H and V are not touched they both say 100% . The "1:1 pixel" selection is the source menu, aspect correct.

in the widows menu i have the aspect set to normal.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Thanks for checking - I am definately going to upgrade the firmware. I was holding off because of fears of HDCP BS. I avoid it through HDSDI.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Boilermaker

Athanasios,


I just downloaded the new firmware and all went well. Then I opened up the resolution editor to install my custom resolution. It seemed to go fine, but I can't find the resolution in the Output Res. list. Did I miss something?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17125649
> 
> 
> Athanasios,
> 
> 
> I just downloaded the new firmware and all went well. Then I opened up the resolution editor to install my custom resolution. It seemed to go fine, but I can't find the resolution in the Output Res. list. Did I miss something?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob




Hmm , I never really paid attention to that after i got the good results. I am sure its there though.... how many resolutions do you have in the editor? if less than 4 it only shows the one for some reason.. I think its a glitch. I have three in there and i only get shown the one unless I add one more res to the list.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

I just went ahead and entered the data manually and it accepted it and is working at my new refresh rate.


I now am trying to do the pixel mapping you did but am not able to find it in the menu. Can you give me that location again?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

in the source menu, not sure if there is an advanced menu in the source menu to turn on but its there, in the aspect correct i think.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Thanks - I found it but it behaves differently than yours for some reason. While it does zoom the proper amount, the image shrinks to have the proper width and height and centered in the top corner???


So I'm going to just enter the zoom and width values manually and reconverge to my new 72 Hz refresh.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Oliver Klohs

Hi,


I am back to work with my two 2250 units and wanted to ask what the current recommended software and literature is from TV-One, so far I have got:


firmware:

c15_c2_2000A_V270.exe


edgeblender software (?)

edgeblender1.0.12.exe


control software:

WCP1.40.exe


manual:

Manual-C2-2000.pdf


Is there anything else I need before I get serious ?


Ideally I would like to do the whole setup by PC and not have to fiddle with the front panel - is that possible now ?


Thanks !


Oliver


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17126098
> 
> 
> Thanks - I found it but it behaves differently than yours for some reason. While it does zoom the proper amount, the image shrinks to have the proper width and height and centered in the top corner???
> 
> 
> So I'm going to just enter the zoom and width values manually and reconverge to my new 72 Hz refresh.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



Bob are you still using [email protected] or did you switch to [email protected] 72?


that might be it if your using 1080p I bet as its not one of my resolutions.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* 
Hi,


I am back to work with my two 2250 units and wanted to ask what the current recommended software and literature is from TV-One, so far I have got:


firmware:

c15_c2_2000A_V270.exe



edgeblender software (?)

edgeblender1.0.12.exe


control software:

WCP1.40.exe


manual:

Manual-C2-2000.pdf


Is there anything else I need before I get serious ?


Ideally I would like to do the whole setup by PC and not have to fiddle with the front panel - is that possible now ?


Thanks !


Oliver
I find that none of that software is helpful at this point except the resolution editor. that is hard to find on the site. if the control panel had value entry boxes instead of the crapy sliders it be a better and more usefull toll.


If you have the C2-2000A series unit you listed the correct software as the older units with out the "A" suffix have their own.


I THINK IF WE ALL START A QUESTION IN THE tV-ONES SUPORT WEBSITE THEY MIGHT LOOK INTO ADDING THE VALUE INPUT BOXES.


I'll add a zip of the res editor software but i cant find the instal so it might work it might not, someone let me know if it doesn't and i'll remove it and look for it on the site.


Lets see if my iDisc link will work:

Resolution Editor 


Athanasios

 

CORIO2.zip 409.94140625k . file


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> how many resolutions do you have in the editor?



It only shows the one I created. There are 107 resolutions in the 2250 so I just manually edited one of them based on the values that the editor calculated. A little cumbersome, but it worked fine.



> Quote:
> Bob are you still using [email protected] or did you switch to [email protected] 72?



I am using [email protected] I went with 1080 so as not to lose anything when watching sports on DirecTv. The video bandwidth is about 110Mhz, so it is not too bad for my XG's. I finished setting up the left projector yesterday (had to stop to watch football games), and should finish the right one today if all goes well. As you said, motion judder at 72Hz on video is minor and I agree - well worth the sacrifice for smooth film watching.

I doubt that I'll ever bother setting up a 60Hz refresh for video as it would be a PITA to switch back and forth.


BTW - I scoped my two gamma boost boxes to get a match and found that just matching the resistance values on the pots yielded identical results. He must have used 1% precision components or I was just lucky.


Bob


----------



## Oliver Klohs

Hi Athanasios,


will send you a pm, it seems the resolution editor does not work.


Yes, we should ask WHY it can be that there is no software to adjust there units, are backups of all the settings possible now.


It really astonishes me that we neither can use the PC software to set these up nor that we have an OSD. Not that I need an OSD but then please give me a PC interface that is usable.


So let's send mails to their customer support but before that maybe we should check out the latest incarnation of the software to see what is missing.


Oliver


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17129586
> 
> 
> It only shows the one I created. There are 107 resolutions in the 2250 so I just manually edited one of them based on the values that the editor calculated. A little cumbersome, but it worked fine.
> 
> *I meant to ask how many resolutions in the C2-2250, what happens is the C2 will look for the closest resolution from the list to match the one in the player. sometimes weird things happen so i only have a few resolutions in the C2 unit.*
> 
> 
> I am using [email protected] I went with 1080 so as not to lose anything when watching sports on DirecTv. The video bandwidth is about 110Mhz, so it is not too bad for my XG's. I finished setting up the left projector yesterday (had to stop to watch football games), and should finish the right one today if all goes well. As you said, motion judder at 72Hz on video is minor and I agree - well worth the sacrifice for smooth film watching.
> 
> I doubt that I'll ever bother setting up a 60Hz refresh for video as it would be a PITA to switch back and forth.
> 
> *The reason your pixel mapping did not work as mine does, probably is you had the wrong output resolution to match the aspect of the source. See
> 
> the aspect you want for 2.35 movies is to have the output at a 1.33 aspect ratio for each PJ. Your 1064x1080 is a .985 aspect ration where my 1064x800 is a true 1.33 aspect, so in blend mode it makes the 2.35 for scope. For your
> 
> 1.77 aspect you'll have to set up a new memory in the C2-2250's. For 1.77 try 1440x1080 and see what happens.*
> 
> 
> BTW - I scoped my two gamma boost boxes to get a match and found that just matching the resistance values on the pots yielded identical results. He must have used 1% precision components or I was just lucky.
> 
> Nice!!!
> 
> 
> Bob




Athanasios


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Klohs* /forum/post/17129770
> 
> 
> Hi Athanasios,
> 
> 
> will send you a pm, it seems the resolution editor does not work.
> 
> 
> Yes, we should ask WHY it can be that there is no software to adjust there units, are backups of all the settings possible now.
> 
> 
> It really astonishes me that we neither can use the PC software to set these up nor that we have an OSD. Not that I need an OSD but then please give me a PC interface that is usable.
> 
> 
> So let's send mails to their customer support but before that maybe we should check out the latest incarnation of the software to see what is missing.
> 
> 
> Oliver



Oliver, the software is not that bad but i think the panel is easier. If they add the value input boxes in addition to the slider bars they now have, it be much better. Yes through the WCP software you can save your setting to a PC and reload them no problem.


nashou


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> See
> 
> the aspect you want for 2.35 movies is to have the output at a 1.33 aspect ratio for each PJ. Your 1064x1080 is a .985 aspect ration where my 1064x800 is a true 1.33 aspect, so in blend mode it makes the 2.35 for scope. For your
> 
> 1.77 aspect you'll have to set up a new memory in the C2-2250's.



Very good! This makes perfect sense. If we had digital projectors we would have to live with these constraints as the pixels are "fixed" physically. With our crt's we can stretch them or squeeze them as we see fit and end up with the proper displayed AR and chose the resolutions that we want for whatever reasons.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> For your
> 
> 1.77 aspect you'll have to set up a new memory in the C2-2250's.



Actually, I just changed an existing one instead. I know I will have to re-enter it any time I do a firmware update as it will be lost in the shuffle.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17130403
> 
> 
> Actually, I just changed an existing one instead. I know I will have to re-enter it any time I do a firmware update as it will be lost in the shuffle.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



Bob, Just use the Windows Control Panel for Corio2 and save the setting and all resolutions for each unit, I just label them Left and Right . The cool thing about the software even if I dont use its graphic interface is you can use it to save different experimental settings and load them into the units and use a differnt memory block in the PJ's to mess around with differnt things, I tried the keyers menu to do picture over lays and stuff splitting pictures on both PJ on one screen, watch two football games in 1.33 aspect (well smaller due to overlap unless you use the shrink feature) then i moved tham all around with pip. added the tv-one logo graphic etc, very cool crap to play with on these.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> very cool crap to play with on these.



I wish I could "play" with mine, but they are located 2 flights of stairs away from my HT. Hell, I probably made 50 trips up and down just to get the blend zone gamma where I wanted it!


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17139284
> 
> 
> I wish I could "play" with mine, but they are located 2 flights of stairs away from my HT. Hell, I probably made 50 trips up and down just to get the blend zone gamma where I wanted it!
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



If you ever find the CC300 controller on e-bay cheap that be the way to go

you just have to run a rs232 cable or ethernet. they also run by Ethernet but i was never able to get the communication working, so in theory you could put an airport express near the C2's and connect them with ethernet and use a wireless laptop to control them from your seat.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> If you ever find the CC300 controller on e-bay cheap that be the way to go



That would work well - I think I'll put a watch on e-bay.


BTW - While I was re-doing everything this past weekend while waiting for my VP to be returned, I noticed that the XG's have a red/blue side to side balance control that I always just set in the center position. Must have been another senior moment, but I never thought to use it to balance out the fact that my R and B guns on on opposite sides of each other. I'll be able to play with it when I finish things with my VP.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## didaschi

Hello,


I could not find detailed differences between 2250 and the newer 2250A.

Now I have an opportunity to buy two used 2250.

What do you think is it worth buying the used ones or shall I better buy two new 2250A for about 800 $ more?


What about the new 2450A? Is it the best and cheapest solution for edge blending?


Best wishes


didaschi


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *didaschi* /forum/post/17196017
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I could not find detailed differences between 2250 and the newer 2250A.
> 
> Now I have an opportunity to buy two used 2250.
> 
> What do you think is it worth buying the used ones or shall I better buy two new 2250A for about 800 $ more?
> 
> 
> What about the new 2450A? Is it the best and cheapest solution for edge blending?
> 
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> 
> didaschi



the clock speed of the 2250 is not able to do [email protected] very well it can do it but as well as the new 2250A which has been tested to [email protected] before the display gave out that they were testing with, so it might even go higer.


And yes the 2450 is the cheapest you can get, send me a message if intrested.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Well finally got the Longbows up on the ceiling !! I did a preliminary set up and have some issues with convergence on the lower left corner of the right PJ. I just can not get it to converge with the left PJ at that spot no matter what geometry controls i use to manipulate it. This might be a bad convergence coil that Scott was talking about making their way into a few Pj's. I worked on Schemflug and on my set up had to use the protected factory adjustors to get it right. i have gotten pretty good doing this now!










I took some shots of twilight and just now noticed on this rig that it was shot with lots of film grain, i never noticed it on my M8000. but this set up shows all that detail, and I thought it was just a poor transfer. here are the shots, I still have not touched the colorimetry in the blend zone as i want to get alignment done perfectly first.

























































nashou


----------



## nashou66

Well, After confirming this with Andy in England, I have found an issue with these units that I hope Tv-One will look into. in the blend zone there is a bit depth issue as andy calls it. The blend S-curve is generated from an 8-bit look-up table and it should be a 24 bit to get perfect blend zone , the 8 bit leaves vertical lines on bright scene's here is an 70IRE full field where you can see what i am talking about, it also leave bright bars towards the center of the image. Andy said those can be worked out by contrast modulation which i have not tweaked yet.



Zoom in of vertical lines both PJ's on( disregard non matching colors, i have not tweaked it yet







)











bright bars near center and vertical lines in blend zone











Blend Off no Vertical lines(one pj on)











Blend on one PJ vertical lines visible











I am in contact with Tv-One and I hope they are able to resolve this. Lets see what they come up with.


Bob did you notice this at all? Andy and I both confirmed it but he's having some home issues an has been busy with that to post his findings here.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Athanasios,


Yes - I have noticed exactly the same thing. Hopefully they can fix it, and when they do they can add 21 pt. control at the same time!


BTW - What blend zone gamma values did you end up with?



Bob


----------



## wkosmann

Dear Anthansios;


The Diventix-8022 does not have the issue of vertical lines in the blend zone. Ken Whitcomb was able to confirm (last Tuesday evening, during final calibration) my engineering hunch that 1) perfectly matched blend zone geometry, and 2) perfectly matched gray scale calibration, results in no blend zone in any scene.


The "piece de resistance" was the use of color correction boards in both projectors. These allow 18 zones per projector (3 rows by 6 zones per row) of both intensity and color (RGB drive and G2 per zone) adjustment. Ken matched the color in the 3 right most zones of the left projector to the 3 left most zones of the right projector. No color distortion in the blend zone.


Finally, Ken also used the 3 left most zones in the left projector to remove a "red push" in the left side of the left projector. Result, video nirvana.


This weekend, I am going to perform a 32 zone Audyssey Pro audio calibration to create room equalization filters for the Denon AVP-A1HDCI audio processor, to bring the audio side up to the standards of the video side. The Denon can decode a 9.3 setup, which I have Going clockwise, starting from the front left channel, I have set up: Front Left, Front Left Sub, Front Center, Front Right Sub, Front Right, Right Side Front, Right Side Rear, Right Rear, Rear LFE Sub, Left Rear, Left Side Rear, Left Side Front.


By Sunday, I will be loving life.










William


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17438658
> 
> 
> Athanasios,
> 
> 
> Yes - I have noticed exactly the same thing. Hopefully they can fix it, and when they do they can add 21 pt. control at the same time!
> 
> 
> BTW - What blend zone gamma values did you end up with?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob



I hope they get on it too, I don't see why they can not just increase the bit depth of the lookup tables. It should be an easy fix to add more "sweep" or steps to the blend zone. I guess our CRT's are more revealing than Digital's after all!


I still am playing with it but it was lower than yours i had .15 at one point but i know this will change as i nail down the greyscale on both Pj's.



Hi William, I never noticed it before because i always thought it was the lack of precise geometry and color matching, but after i got my geometry almost perfect and was tweaking the contrast zones I noticed the lines during that process. I has the zone off for the zone adjustments then I turned it on and the lines appeared, I alway had both PJ's on when i had the edge blend engaged. Its more noticeable with one PJ off, then once I saw it i could not ignore it. it's driving me nuts!!!.


Sounds like your system is coming right along. Wish i could see how the tv-ones would perform on an opitamly set up rig, and if the lines would be less pronounced or more pronounced. I thin more , because as I kept getting closer and closer to better geometry in the blend zone it showed its ugly head!


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> perfectly matched blend zone geometry, and 2) perfectly matched gray scale calibration, results in no blend zone in any scene.



William - I can agree with this. The closer I get to perfectly matched sides, the more the blend zone disappears. It is now invisible about 99.9% of the time and when it is visible, it is minor. My problem is that I'm not good enough to get them exactly matched without the help of multipoint adjustments!



> Quote:
> Ken matched the color in the 3 right most zones of the left projector to the 3 left most zones of the right projector. No color distortion in the blend zone.



Wow - I wish my pair of XGLC's had this feature - I never noticed the difference in output in different parts of the screen until doing a blend.



> Quote:
> I guess our CRT's are more revealing than Digital's after all!



After seeing a blend, I think you know the answer to that as well as anyone.




> Quote:
> The Denon can decode a 9.3 setup



William - Are these extra channels derived from the 7.1 signal?



Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

this is off topic Bob but while i have your attention,Ever start work on that wall wart remover? I still want to build one or two. Let me know when you want to start that project so I can chip in for getting PCB's made up.

I want to start using the eagle PCB software again and draw up the boards, if you can draw up your version of the schematics I can give a shot at the PCB layout.


And what do think about Black Gate caps? I have a bunch to re cap my Marquee's power supplies with.


Athanasios


----------



## wkosmann




> Quote:
> Quote:
> 
> The Denon can decode a 9.3 setup
> 
> 
> William - Are these extra channels derived from the 7.1 signal?



Short answer: yes, from a 5.1 audio stream.


Longer answer, the left sub signal comes from the full bandwidth left front channel. The right sub signal comes from the full bandwidth right front channel. My side speakers are dipoles: 2 speakers point towards the front and 2 towards the rear of the Home Theater. The right side signal is dervied from the right front and right rear channels. Same for the left side. The LFE sub, of course, gets the full LFE signal.


The Denon AVP-A1HDCI is the bees knees of audio processors.







As an example, it will alow me to hook up my 3 subs 4 different ways. I am using the L/R/LFE mode. It has various other mixes available.


William

*Already Here: RODAN-O-Blend's Nemisis: Blendzilla*


----------



## wkosmann

BTW, for the record, the official arrival date of RODAN-O-Blend's nemisis Blendzilla is Tuesday, October 20, 2009, at about 9:00 PM. It will be commemorated in the history books.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wkosmann* /forum/post/17443135
> 
> 
> BTW, for the record, the official arrival date of RODAN-O-Blend's nemisis Blendzilla is Tuesday, October 20, 2009, at about 9:00 PM. It will be commemorated in the history books.



yeah yeah yeah, you have Professionals helping you set up the blend, do it on your own buddy

















Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wkosmann* /forum/post/17439109
> 
> 
> The "piece de resistance" was the use of color correction boards in both projectors. These allow 18 zones per projector (3 rows by 6 zones per row) of both intensity and color (RGB drive and G2 per zone) adjustment.



William... which boards are these? Do you have a part number?


I've been using the contrast modulation boards, but they only allow for 9 zones per projector and you can only adjust drive.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Ever start work on that wall wart remover?



Sorry - I have not forgotten - Just been busy. I should have time this winter, so I'll send you an e-mail of parameters to see what you think before I start it.




> Quote:
> And what do think about Black Gate caps?



Been a while since I used any, but I remember being impressed with them.



Gino - I can't wait until you are back up and running as I would like to hear what you think of the differences between 'Zilla and "Rodan...". I think the ability to select custom output resolutions and refresh rates is a huge advantage that really suits well with our analog projectors.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/17444102
> 
> 
> William... which boards are these? Do you have a part number?
> 
> 
> I've been using the contrast modulation boards, but they only allow for 9 zones per projector and you can only adjust drive.



Thats what william meant he just did the numbers for two pjs, so its 3 horizontal rows by 6 vertical rows.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Well after a ton of E-mails back and forth between Tv-one help desk and me and Andy and Bob , they are going to look into it more closely. They said that they have been swamped but will soon be able to move this up the list . Lets hope its a simple Firmware fix! I might try to go back a firmware to see if it is on the older one as well, you never know. Bob Are you running the latest?


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Bob Are you running the latest?



No - I'm still running the original, as I am waiting for multipoint controls.


Somewhere in all the communications with Rob he mentioned that he now had the resources to get this accomplished. Have you heard otherwise since then?


Bob


----------



## nashou66

Bob or anyone else who noticed the lines do this experiment, while using the RGBHV outs and with one PJ on and the Blend function on, go to the windows menu and then to Fade and adjust it and watch the lines, see how they move wider or narrower depending on the amount of fade, this plays into Bobs theory that its a gamma issue possibly but also it could be something else also.


It is definitely a scaling issue. I am sure after investigating it they come up with a solution. It is definitely not hardware as the fade with the edge blend function off does not cause any weird anomalies.


nashou


----------



## Boilermaker

Athanasios = Wish I could do this, but my hardware is located two floors below my HT. It has been a pita during setup, but I have got good exercise climbing up and down two flights of stairs!


Bob


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17492035
> 
> 
> Bob or anyone else who noticed the lines do this experiment, while using the RGBHV outs and with one PJ on and the Blend function on, go to the windows menu and then to Fade and adjust it and watch the lines, see how they move wider or narrower depending on the amount of fade, this plays into Bobs theory that its a gamma issue possibly but also it could be something else also.
> 
> 
> It is definitely a scaling issue. I am sure after investigating it they come up with a solution. It is definitely not hardware as the fade with the edge blend function off does not cause any weird anomalies.
> 
> 
> nashou



Connect a scope to the output of the unit (use the green out for this). Externally trigger the scope using the 'VERTICAL' sync from the unit.


Inject a full white field into the units input.


Setup the scope displaying and showing the blend roll-off at either the right or left of the scopes screen (depending on which out you're using).


Evaluate that roll-off as you adjust the blend zone or gamma. It should show a VERY smooth slope that raises and lowers without edges or breaking.


If the slope shows any degree of distortion, you could at that point consider the unit used for blending, as NOT being a blend unit.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mp20748* /forum/post/17496299
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nashou66* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bob or anyone else who noticed the lines do this experiment, while using the RGBHV outs and with one PJ on and the Blend function on, go to the windows menu and then to Fade and adjust it and watch the lines, see how they move wider or narrower depending on the amount of fade, this plays into Bobs theory that its a gamma issue possibly but also it could be something else also.
> 
> 
> It is definitely a scaling issue. I am sure after investigating it they come up with a solution. It is definitely not hardware as the fade with the edge blend function off does not cause any weird anomalies.
> 
> 
> nashou
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Connect a scope to the output of the unit (use the green out for this). Externally trigger the scope using the 'VERTICAL' sync from the unit.
> 
> 
> Inject a full white field into the units input.
> 
> 
> Setup the scope displaying and showing the blend roll-off at either the right or left of the scopes screen (depending on which out you're using).
> 
> 
> Evaluate that roll-off as you adjust the blend zone or gamma. It should show a VERY smooth slope that raises and lowers without edges or breaking.
> 
> 
> If the slope shows any degree of distortion, you could at that point consider the unit used for blending, as NOT being a blend unit.
Click to expand...


Thanks Mike, I'll give it a try, its a dvi out via an RGBHV breakout cable, i wonder if the length of the cable might have something to do with it.

can I use BNC "T" fittings on the Green and V sync to send to the scope?

How do i "Externally trigger the scope using the 'VERTICAL' sync from the unit." Do i connect two probes to one input on the scope using a BNC "T fitting"? Also I added the other Moome card back in and the lines are much less pronounced, very muted but still there. So it seems to be more of an issue with RGBHV outs.


The thing that is weird is if I adjust the blend zone size i do not see the lines do anything strange like jump quickly to the new position they just move very smooth with the blend edge. its when I use a fade function on the unit that will fade to black the entire image, the lines move and jump quickly to a new position with in the blend zone and there are wider bars that do the same with in the main part of the image. That could be a non linear fade function causing that and has nothing to do with the blend curve.


But I'll try the scope once i get a chance, brother in-laws birthday tonight.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17496284
> 
> 
> Athanasios = Wish I could do this, but my hardware is located two floors below my HT. It has been a pita during setup, but I have got good exercise climbing up and down two flights of stairs!
> 
> 
> Bob




Thats easy to do, set your camera to record video, hit record, run tot he control room and adjust the the fade up and down then go back and check !


















Nashou!!!!!!


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17445150
> 
> 
> Thats what william meant he just did the numbers for two pjs, so its 3 horizontal rows by 6 vertical rows.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



That's what I thought initially but he did say "These allow 18 zones *per projector*"


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Thats easy to do, set your camera to record video, hit record, run tot he control room and adjust the the fade up and down then go back and check !



Good idea, but believe it or not, I am an analog old fart that doesn't even own a digital camera!


Mike Parkers idea of scoping the blend curve is super. If you do it, it would be interesting to see what happens to the shape as you change the gamma adjustment, especially at different IRE levels.


Based on what we are seeing, there should be "sections" of the curve that level out and then take a jump instead of a smooth exponential curve.


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17500663
> 
> 
> Good idea, but believe it or not, I am an analog old fart that doesn't even own a digital camera!
> 
> 
> Mike Parkers idea of scoping the blend curve is super. If you do it, it would be interesting to see what happens to the shape as you change the gamma adjustment, especially at different IRE levels.
> 
> 
> Based on what we are seeing, there should be "sections" of the curve that level out and then take a jump instead of a smooth exponential curve.
> 
> 
> Bob



Good news guys, Robert is now on this one! he is Tv_OneEngineer on AVS and the one i feel knows more about the blend features of these units than anyone else there. I will still try Mikes suggestion but i got this responce when I checked my E-mails this morning:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Robert* /forum/post/0
> 
> _Athanasios, Thanks for you patience we are going to try a few code modifications later this week, is there any chance you could try a Blend of 128 and 255 and tell us what you see ? *Your good old CRT's appear to show this issue much better that the DLP's that we have here*. In theory 128 should be nice and even, and 255 a bit of a mess if so then we know the cause.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Robert_



I did try what he suggested before and IIRC it was less noticeable with a smaller blend zone. I will give it his suggestion tonight when i get home from work along with a shot at scoping. I assume I should hook the Vsync the the external triger BNC on the scope ? This way i'll start with a small blend zone , maybe 100 and increase it to see what happens.


I like his comment about CRT's










Athanasios


----------



## Pesa-

ok


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17500815
> 
> 
> I assume I should hook the Vsync the the external triger BNC on the scope ?
> 
> Athanasios



Try and use BNC "T" connectors right at the projector.


The scope procedure is the best way to see what the blend ramp actually looks like in the electronic world.


That ramp (slope) would have to be smooth, clean and free of jaggies or any other distortion in order to perform proper blending.


----------



## nashou66

Ok now I know why Rob, wanted me to raise the blend zone to 255. While I hooked up the scope and adjusted the Blend zone to increase at the 250 pixel mark it snapped down if i went lower towards 250 it snapped up. the gamma adjustment seamed normal to me, I'll let mike look at the video I am uploading to my mobileMe Web gallery.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Ok here is the scope video, i lowered the intensity of the beam thats why when the curve goes vertical you wont see the line but its there, hard to capture video of the scope trace with a point and shoot camera, thats why the line is fuzzy, but in reality its sharp.

http://gallery.me.com/nashou.66#1001...or=black&sel=0 



let the video load before hitting play or it will stop then play.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

I'm sorry, but you lost me. What do you mean by it snapped up and down?


Bob


----------



## nashou66

bob if you watch the video the blend curve will move uo or down as i pass the 250 mark on the blend zone adjustment for size. there must be something in the algorithm they use.


Athanasios


----------



## mp20748

The video won't play for me..










Anyway, Im not understanding what you're saying when you mentioned "snapped" or "moved" in your comments.


When adjusting the blend zone, the ramp (slope) should move as you make the adjustment. It should be moving very smoothly up or down, duplicating what you're doing with the blend adjustment - ONLY!


Again, any distortions (breaking, jerks, zig-zags, ripples, bends, twists, smears, etc) should not be seen.


The quality of the blender depends on how well that slope moves and transitions to the blend adjustment without distortions.


----------



## nashou66

Right mike, the curve moves very smoothly till i get to the one point 250 pixels where the curve bumps or jerks and then goes back to its normal position. The engineers say they think they found the issue and will fix it. Something in the software.

I also think that once they get the 256 Gamma adjustment software written it will make a hugh difference.


Does your browser support Quick Time? the video should play with Quicktime, or Flash media.


You can also download it from the web page, download button on top.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Ok I created a You Tube account. here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udBTj_U1BvU 


and with the probe set to x10 you can see the curve alter at the 250 pixel blend size point much better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz1PX3_zi0Y 


Nashou


----------



## mp20748

The slope looks good but it's best to show the entire 100 IRE data while also showing the slope at either end of the window, which is how it goes into the PJ. When doing it that way, you'll be able to show where and how much of the blend zone in reference to the signal. But in this case, it's not really that important.


At some point the slope moved OK, but at other times it was difficult to understand what was going on. There's also a bit of distortion in the slolpe, that appears to show up as small ripples or zig-zags. The camera is not doing so well showing how clean the slope really is, so you'll have to be the judge on that end. But if there is a bit of distortion on the slope line, that is what you're seeing in the image that shows as banding or steps in the blend zone.


Most if not all processors and scaling today uses DSP (digital signal processing) chips, which means it's all done through clever programing and could therefore be corrected in software upgrades.


No question it's a great product, mainly because of all the other really neat features the unit has. And if they could put that much power in such an in-expensive blend-processor unit, I'm sure they can also improve on a blend zone problem if in fact one truly exist.


Hopefully your shots of the scope pattern would help them look at things. And since they seem to be very concerned about the product, all you're need is a bit of patience.


If only the people who made the Blendzilla unit was half as concerned.


----------



## nashou66

The only time the major distortion occurs is when I adjust the blend zone size to the 250 pixel mark, at that point the Trace line jerks or flashes out for a split second. As I move forward and back in adjusting the blend zone size over the 250 pixel mark you see it best.


There is slight jaggies along the curve , I bet that is the serration's or lines i am seeing.

They said they are working on the fix and it should be done this week , hopefully.


Nashou


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> There is slight jaggies along the curve , I bet that is the serration's or lines i am seeing.



I agree - Those jaggies would represent the serrations we are seeing. But what doesn't make sense to me is that as you moved the gamma adjustment up and down, it seemed to increase and decrease the size of the blend zone. I would have assumed that this would only change the shape?


BTW - You are not using any gamma boost from Moome are you?


Bob


----------



## nashou66

Bob with regards to gamma adjustment, I thought about what you said and think about it. the trace live for the blend curve when the gamma is set low shows a nice smooth radius curve. it drawn with regards to the voltage level of the 100 IRE field I used, .7mv i would assume( i did not really pay attention) So as you adjust the blend it reduces the voltage on one end of the trace. When i had the gamma at mid point of .5 the curve went to a smooth 45 degree angle as I think it should, as you lower it the voltage level in the blend zone for the full 100 IRE would change as lowering gamma adds voltage. Since they do not have a gamma adjustment at different points they must use an average or put the added voltage at a certain point/s so you see the bumping of the curve in the middle as you lower it more(add voltage) the bump gets pushed up the curve to full voltage therefore eliminating the blend zone. As I approached .01 gamma

in the zone it disappears and I get the full and actually WTW in the blend zone. I have to do it again to verify.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Just got this from Richard:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Athanasios,
> 
> 
> Any glitches during adjustment are perfectly normal and are not related to any of the other issues you've had.
> 
> 
> As you change the blend width and gamma, new data is sent to the FPGA on our devices, and hence you're seeing the update happen. This is perfectly normal and not a fault.
> 
> 
> Have you tried the 128 blend width yet? This is the one that should be nice and even.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Richard



I replied that the smaller blend zone is smoother but that then Gamma becomes an issue where we can not get seamless blend at all IRE's.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I replied that the smaller blend zone is smoother but that then Gamma becomes an issue where we can not get seamless blend at all IRE's.



Exactly, and that is why multipoint control is necessary. When we extend the blend zone area in pixels beyond the physical size of our blend area, the shape of the gamma curve within the physical blend area changes to one that is more suited to our actual needs. This means that there is no longer a trade-off between proper levels in dark areas or proper levels in bright areas. But - we have a sacrifice of pq in the areas just beyond the edges of the physical blend zone (not to be confused with the pixel blend area).


I hope this makes sense. This is why we need to add multi-point controls.


Draw the shape of the curve at some midpoint gamma adjustment with the blend zone width at your proper pixels, and then draw another curve that is formed when the width is extended to 100 pixels more. Now note the difference in the shape ONLY in the section that is common to both, as that is the actual physical common blend zone. Notice the difference in shape. Unfortunately, it is also effecting areas beyond that which is controlled by the proper pixel width.


Bob


----------



## nashou66

I played some more just not calibrating as close As i could both PJ's using the Eye1, I think i need to have it re-calibrated already since its been in my Basement not sealed







.


I used a smaller blend zone than the 208 i went asymmetrical as well, 190 and 200.

Also I got gamma as close As i could but the higher IRE's are suffering. And I decided to do this with no contrast modulation. I want to try using the Craig Rounds method for setting Contrast modulation by not using white or Primaries but using the secondaries of yellow and Cyan.


Athanasios


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17516553
> 
> 
> I played some more just not calibrating as close As i could both PJ's using the Eye1, I think i need to have it re-calibrated already since its been in my Basement not sealed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> I used a smaller blend zone than the 208 i went asymmetrical as well, 190 and 200.
> 
> Also I got gamma as close As i could but the higher IRE's are suffering. And I decided to do this with no contrast modulation. I want to try using the Craig Rounds method for setting Contrast modulation by not using white or Primaries but using the secondaries of yellow and Cyan.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Are you using two separate units for blend processing?


I think I read somewhere that there's a blender out there that comes in two separate units.


----------



## nashou66

Yes these are single units, although their dual processor unit can adjust blend zones independently also.

http://www.tvone.com/edgeblending.shtml 


Athanasios


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17517101
> 
> 
> Yes these are single units, although their dual processor unit can adjust blend zones independently also.
> 
> http://www.tvone.com/edgeblending.shtml
> 
> 
> Athanasios



In that case, you'll do better using your scope to help adjust the blend zones.


You'll wnt to make sure you have all things first equal between the two projectors before doing the blend part, then from there be able to compare the two blend slopes for "proper" blending.


And based on what I saw in that video, it would be wise to look at those two slopes to make sure they are sloping equally.


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> You'll wnt to make sure you have all things first equal between the two projectors before doing the blend part, then from there be able to compare the two blend slopes for "proper" blending.
> 
> 
> And based on what I saw in that video, it would be wise to look at those two slopes to make sure they are sloping equally.



Mike - Thanks for your input. I have played with this for quite some time now, so have come to some conclusions that might not necessarily be correct, but please bear with me.


I have seen nothing to make me believe that given identical settings there is any difference in the two channels. I believe that our problem lies strictly in the fact that we are unable to calibrate our projectors such that they both have perfectly flat gamma curves at the proper value from 0 to 100 IRE.


I came to this conclusion just a few weeks ago. I had been using two separate gamma boost boxes that I scoped to make sure that they were at identical settings. Then I noticed from the screen shots from Athanasios that while he was having trouble in obtaining a perfect blend zone at both very high and very low IRE's at the same time, my situation was worse.


I then removed my two gamma boxes and recalibrated and found that it greatly reduced the anomaly such that it looked almost identical to Athanasios' situation.


Also, when we extend the size of the blend zone (pixels - not physical) it helps the situation because it changes the shape of the curves within the physical blend zone.


In our present setups (please jump in if you disagree, Athanasios) we can adjust the blend zone gamma settings such that we can have a nice seamless blend either at the high end or the low end, but never at the same time!


Therefore, I believe that if our projectors were perectly calibrated so that they had a near ruler flat gamma, the problem, would go away.


That is why I feel that if TVOne were to add full CMS, the problem would be solved.


Since all of TVOne's extensive scaler product lineup uses thir Corio2 system, I would imagine their entire product lineup would also benefit with a CMS at the same time, but this is pure speculation.


Does any of this not make sense to you?



Thanks,

Bob


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17519716
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen nothing to make me believe that given identical settings there is any difference in the two channels. I believe that our problem lies strictly in the fact that we are unable to calibrate our projectors such that they both have perfectly flat gamma curves at the proper value from 0 to 100 IRE.



How are you testing for these "perfect gamma curves" ?


You may recall that I posted to this somewhere earlier to Athanasios, that one of the most important rules to blending is to make sure the top and bottom IRE's are properly calibrated in the projector before starting. Blending can be done a number of ways with you eventually getting fairly good results, but there's only one way to do it in respect to maintaining good or equal IRE levels from low to high.


I think the people who made these units intended for them to be able to match any two display devices. That's good for a lot of setups, but when dealing with High Performance Hometheater setups, you'll need to make sure things are very precise before you start with blending. When the setup is done right before blending, the blending is EASY. And not a task that could takes days to make happen, and after that tedious task, you'll have terrible gamma results.


First, you'll have to disable ANY gamma correcting devices at the projector, or after the blend device. If you're thinking you're going to tweak a matching gamma using two devices pre projector, forgot about it - it ain't gonna happen. It actually further screws things up


Next, the best way to check and confirm your pre-blending levels would be to use the various IRE windows (DVE). Choose any 6 of them and go through them one at a time to see how well your gamma is tracking between the two projectors. At this point, you're not using any gamma or blend settings. Only making sure you have properly matched both projectors.





> Quote:
> I came to this conclusion just a few weeks ago. *I had been using two separate gamma boost boxes that I scoped to make sure that they were at identical settings*. Then I noticed from the screen shots from Athanasios that while he was having trouble in obtaining a perfect blend zone at both very high and very low IRE's at the same time, my situation was worse.
> 
> *I then removed my two gamma boxes and recalibrated and found that it greatly reduced the anomaly such that it looked almost identical to Athanasios' situation*.



Yep - as mentioned previously, won't work.





> Quote:
> In our present setups (please jump in if you disagree, Athanasios) we can adjust the blend zone gamma settings such that we can have a nice seamless blend either at the high end or the low end, but never at the same time!



You'll have to make sure you setup both projectors first matching the low end IRE and then the top end IRE (100). But in doing this, it's very important to make sure that both projectors are set at the same lumens levels. In other words, you'll have to measure the light output at the low setup and then at the high setup. They both need to match with light leveled results. When that is done right, everything in between should follow. And the test for that would be the 6 or more IRE windows mentioned above.


If the top and bottom are properly calibrated, all should be well, but do remember that any gamma adjustments done at this point would have to be equal and would have to be an adjustment that exist for both outputs. The idea of having dual gamma adjustments sounds like a good idea, but only makes sense if using two different makes or model projectors.


Blending is really easy once you properly match the two projectors levels. From there, there's really no need for those sophisticated adjustments they add to some blend units. You should only need to tweak the blend zones for matching.





> Quote:
> Therefore, I believe that if our projectors were perectly calibrated so that they had a near ruler flat gamma, the problem, would go away.



Ah, you're on this thing man..










Instead of ruler flat gamma. Go for an even IRE matching (6 or more IRE windows matching). Stay away from the word gamma, unless you've finished your setup and blending and it's time to tweak for low end gamma.





> Quote:
> That is why I feel that if TVOne were to add full CMS, the problem would be solved.
> 
> 
> Since all of TVOne's extensive scaler product lineup uses thir Corio2 system, I would imagine their entire product lineup would also benefit with a CMS at the same time, but this is pure speculation.
> 
> 
> Does any of this not make sense to you?



Dude, you're almost at a point of helping them (TV One) make these device better. So far, you've giving them a lot to think about. especially since all the makers of these devices seem to not understand some of the things we both have raised here. It seems that they're selling the device with commercial application in mind, but somehow have included all the really neat features for HT. For HT blending, it's a whole different world.


For commercial applications, the goal is to put enough tweaks in the device to be able to blend any two display devices...


For HT, the goal is to precisely calibrate each mirrored (same make and model) projector to a *properly* functioning blend processor.



When the blend is done right, the colors should match at equal lumens at almost every IRE reading. That means it would be able to do the very complex pastel colors as well. When that happens, It's blended!


----------



## Boilermaker

Mike - I could not possibly agree more with everything you just said!


However: Reaching this goal would be SOOOO easy with a full CMS setup for each projector and while every scaler on the market has the potential for this capability, only Lumagen has done it. I don't have the faintest idea of how long it would take for TVOne (or anyone else) to program this feature set into their products.


Another problem is that the sensors I have used all crap out at anything below about 20IRE, so from there on down, its all an eye judgement call.


I recently read a thread in the Calibration section about some new company that will hopefully soon have a standalone CMS box for less than $1K. Looks interesting, but I'd rather get it for free with some programming from TVOne.



Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

Ok you both make good points but Bon here i do agree with mike about getting both PJ's to have the EXACT same Color/Greyscale tracking. Use no gamma at all while calibrating.

But like mike says you need at least 6 IRE's of exact greyscale matching. I have the mids almost perfect 40,50,60 in those ires it is perfectly seamless. above and below it gets worse but then at about 15 and lower its seamless again due to how dark it is. but from 15-40 and then 60-100 you can see the blend zone and also color tints in the blend zone that is only noticeable when both PJ's are on if I shut off one the certain color tint goes away and or changes to a different color tint. this is what Mike is talking about getting the pastels or secondaries correct. On the thread that Illias posted about color uniformity with his g70 craig explains how he does the zone adjustments using the secondaries by eye. I think I need to try this method.


And Bob, when talking about Gamma i know you mean only in the blend zone, i want to clarify this for Mike. we need the 256 point adjustment more for the blend zone more than anywhere else right now, we can use a VP like the lumagen for the over all image gamma before the Tv-ones.


But Andres is doing some work for Marquee guys that I thin will make things a lot easier, i wish i was more of a Computer nerd to use his method.


here is an email i got today from him, I want to do what he's doing bad!!!!!



> _Quote:_
> _Originally Posted by *Andre* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Athanasios,
> 
> 
> I do have the G2/DRIVE software almost ready. Therequirement listis somehow steep and not really plug & play... but still you may be interested in testing it if you feel like it! I'll get the Blue done tonight (family allowing) and after that I'll focus in automatic color uniformity correction (i.e. adjusting CCM from the computer& DSLR automatically). The UI right now is a command-line application running on Windows and it doesn't hurt to run it from within Visual Studio! :-(
> 
> 
> I find that the process of color correction is highly iterative and furthermore the marquee works with 12 bits for G2 adjustments and 8-bits for drive adjustments, that granularity is difficult to control from the IR remote (i.e. I am not sure how many steps a click on the remote while adjusting G2 represents but for DRIVE which ranges 0-100 you get more resolution in those adjustments via RS232 commands than with the IR remote - the same holds true for almost all Marquee controls, which internally are either 8-bit or more but get normalized to 0-100 in many user-exposed settings). The other benefit of the approach is that interestingly a digital camera can read very very low light readings with long exposure times (e.g. 1 second) - that means that G2 calibration in the low-end is possible at 10 IRE or even lower, which I find critical to get right so that the blend zone is not visible in super-dark scenes.
> 
> 
> I find that w/o this automatic approach I'd be lost - and it turns out I'm learning and enjoying it a lot while writing this crazy software! _


_
_


I really want to do this, I think I may visit Spain to see it action first hand and have him teach me the method. Sorry bob its only for Marquee's right now










Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> i do agree with mike about getting both PJ's to have the EXACT same Color/Greyscale tracking.



We ALL agree on this - The problem is actually doing it! I also have no problem with anything until it starts getting at about 70IRE as long as I set the gamma to do well in the dark areas. Just think how easy this would be with full CMS!!!




> Quote:
> we can use a VP like the lumagen for the over all image gamma before the Tv-ones.



Unfortunately the DVDO VP50Pro with HDSDI that I am using can't do this. I was stupid enough to believe that they would add this to their feature set like they promised!?!?




> Quote:
> But Andres is doing some work for Marquee guys that I thin will make things a lot easier,



I have followed his posts on this - This is super cool!



> Quote:
> On the thread that Illias posted about color uniformity with his g70 craig explains how he does the zone adjustments using the secondaries by eye. I think I need to try this method.



I missed this one - can you direct me to it?



Bottom line is that when I get the time I will make yet another attempt at a more linear grayscale/gamma calibration. Each time I do it I get a little closer. Hopefully TVOne will add the software and then I can make it perfect! Perhaps that little CMS box will actually come to life, and I'll get a couple of them.

In the meantime, I'm really enjoying some movies at 98%!!


Bob


----------



## nashou66

Here is craig method for doing Contrast modulation on the edges of the screen for a G70, i think the same can be done with a marquee as pressing the color button while in Contrast Zone adjustments can cycle through all primaries and secondaries so you can cycle trough them all while in one zone. here is Craig's statement:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CIR-Engineering* /forum/post/17501525
> 
> 
> Go into the G70 service menu. Locate the "Uniformity" menu. There are options for "color uniformity" and for "brightness uniformity." Adjust these to taste and to fix the problem.
> 
> 
> Try both of these options on "Standard" first and see how it looks. If these is still bad uniformity, select "Manual" and this will bring you to a new menu. Mute the BLUE tube and adjust the horizontal RED (H-Red) to even out the yellow field. Then mute the RED tube and adjust the H-Blue to even out the cyan field. Finally, look at all white again to see how you did with color uniformity.
> 
> 
> If your corners or sides are discolored, adjust the blue focus at theses points to even out the field further. You will loose some blue focus at the edges this way, but you will get an even field uniformity.
> 
> 
> craigr





> Quote:
> Perhaps that little CMS box will actually come to life, and I'll get a couple of them.



You mean this?

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewt...asc&highlight= 


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Thanks for the info from craigr. There are two similar sounding controls on the XG that I have played with - This should help me use them properly! Maybe I'll get closer!!!



> Quote:
> You mean this?
> 
> http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewt...asc&highlight=



Yes - Looks pretty cool doesn't it. I'll have to also get a couple of D/A converters, unfortunately.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Boilermaker

On second thought - I won't need separate D/A converters if I install the Spectracal boxes before the TVOne's. Do you guys see anything wrong with that?


I guess that if TVOne doesn't offer full CMS by the time Spectracal is shipping, I'll order a pair of them.


Bob


----------



## nashou66

I did a little Zone contrast modulation, still not perfect but getting closer. Bob you have to do that craig method works nicely, I found out the Marquee mutes the right colors for doing this by pressing certain commands on the remote.

by pressing color and getting to the yellow field i then press tint and it swaps between red and green , Nice!!!


Also when i was looking into the lens with the 4 grey bars on DVE witht he blend on you can see the clear distinct lines or steps while looking in the tubes,its definitely something software related. If i can take a pic of it i will.





































On this pattern I made you can see the slight lines and the Bars in the middle of each half of the screen. that is an anomaly of those lines.











Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Bob you have to do that craig method works nicely,



Yes, I'm going to try it tomorrow morning before the games start.




> Quote:
> Also when i was looking into the lens with the 4 grey bars on DVE witht he blend on you can see the clear distinct lines or steps while looking in the tubes,its definitely something software related.



I see the same thing - There is no doubt about the problem, but I'm now confident that they will get it fixed.


Are those shots in your last post with the extended zone, or with the proper size?



Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17529422
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm going to try it tomorrow morning before the games start.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see the same thing - There is no doubt about the problem, but I'm now confident that they will get it fixed.
> 
> *Are those shots in your last post with the extended zone, or with the proper size?
> *
> 
> 
> Bob



To tell ya the truth, i don't know ! I just concentrated on the zone modulation. I still do not have both Grayscale's or colors matching either.

But i Know for a fact each time I get closer to both PJ's looking the same the more the blend zone fades while watching real content. Horizontal pans are what bring it out the most as a solid color moves from one Pj to the other.


Also you can see the Hard edge of the beginning of the blend zone in the Horizontal Grey pattern, they need to work on that,have it feather edge also not only the end of the zone is feathered . That is what the DiVentix does better.


we'll get there Bob, slowly but surely. And if not then I'll have to give Craig Rounds or Ken Whitcomb a call










Nashou


----------



## Gino AUS

I'm sure the links were posted earlier in this thread but I can't be bothered flipping through 25 pages to find the answers.


1. Is there an online link to a setup manual for blending these?

2. Is there a download link for firmware updates?

3. Are these now compatible with HDCP or do I still need to use my moome external first to strip the HDCP?

4. Do I need to purchase a special cable to connect the two boxes together or they operate independantly?


Looks like I'll finally have time to play with them this week.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/17532147
> 
> 
> I'm sure the links were posted earlier in this thread but I can't be bothered flipping through 25 pages to find the answers.
> 
> 
> 1. Is there an online link to a setup manual for blending these?
> 
> 2. Is there a download link for firmware updates?
> 
> 3. Are these now compatible with HDCP or do I still need to use my moome external first to strip the HDCP?
> 
> 4. Do I need to purchase a special cable to connect the two boxes together or they operate independantly?
> 
> 
> Looks like I'll finally have time to play with them this week.



Hi Gino, here are the links to manuals , firmware, and programs. You might have to do a search for the res editor. I'll try to link it when i find it, its buried in there some where.

http://www.tvone.co.uk/tech_support.shtml 


these are HDCP compliant but i still use the moome MUX as a splitter, works so why use something else?


No cable is needed, they work independently, in the source menu try using the 1:1 pixel mapping instead of using the windows menu Zoom function.


let me know when your going to do this maybe we can set up a phone call so i can walk you through it.


One thing you'll notice is the lines in the blend zone. but the Tv-one guys at the moment suggest using 128 blend zone till they work out the kinks. Right now i'm watching the foo fighters and it looks great!!! I did the contrast zone modulation that craig mentioned ant it helped out a lot!


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Ok here is the resolution editor to make custom resolutions. I found it better to only make the resolutions you will be using. So i made the input resolutions like [email protected] and then the output res( 1064x800 as an example) there are other program also, i just notice a C2 messenger, its a rs 232 control!! I need to get this to andre to write some communication software to use with his project!

http://tvone.CRMdesk.com/image.aspx?mode=file&id=385 


nashou


----------



## Gino AUS

thanks athanasios!


i'll hopefully get around to trying it out tomorrow, and then will tweak it over the next few nights and report my progress as I go. my brother is visiting on friday so this is what finally got my butt in gear! lol


----------



## Boilermaker

Gino - Good to have you back into it!


The only difference in my setup from Athanasios is I use a little Monoprice DVI splitter out of my VP50pro. The only disadvantage I can see with Moome's wonderful MUX is that you lose the lossless audio codecs unless you go through your audio pre/pro first which adds another handshake.


Can't wait to hear your impressions! Keep us posted.


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17532704
> 
> 
> Gino - Good to have you back into it!
> 
> 
> The only difference in my setup from Athanasios is I use a little Monoprice DVI splitter out of my VP50pro. The only disadvantage I can see with Moome's wonderful MUX is that you lose the lossless audio codecs unless you go through your audio pre/pro first which adds another handshake.
> 
> 
> Can't wait to hear your impressions! Keep us posted.
> 
> 
> Bob



Bob I'm also not using the Lumagen HDQ. straight to the C2-2250.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Did a few tweaks, still not a perfect match on both PJ's but close enough to enjoy some Foo Fighters !!!







































Athanasios


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17532704
> 
> 
> Gino - Good to have you back into it!
> 
> 
> The only difference in my setup from Athanasios is I use a little Monoprice DVI splitter out of my VP50pro. The only disadvantage I can see with Moome's wonderful MUX is that you lose the lossless audio codecs unless you go through your audio pre/pro first which adds another handshake.



Sweet, so you're saying all is well with HDCP... straight from source > VP50pro > splitter > TVOne? If that's the case I won't bother with the Moome EXT-HD


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/17536647
> 
> 
> Did a few tweaks, still not a perfect match on both PJ's but close enough to enjoy some Foo Fighters !!!



Looking good Athanasios! Remind me what size and type screen you are using.


I've got everything into the home theatre now, and have wired it all up. Tonight I check that both marquee's are working perfectly after having been boxed up for so long. Will probably take them apart first to check that my glycol problem hasn't returned.


----------



## nashou66

Thanks Gino, I used the MUX due to the tv ones wating to use 1080p @60 and not 24. They have a edid editor but I didn't try to use it.


I'm using a Dalite 1.3 gain. 140" wide screen. I definitly see why

a unity gain would be best.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Sweet, so you're saying all is well with HDCP...



I wish, but no. I am using HD-SDI from BD into the VP50Pro at 24Hz. I then output [email protected] through the Monoprice splitter into the two TVOne's. Output from the TVOne's is [email protected] I chose 1080 instead of 800 or 817 because I watch a lot of sports and didn't want to throw away any lines and I'm too lazy to setup two resolutions.


Bob


----------



## Gino AUS

So it is still necessary to include a moome/hdcp stripper before the tvone's when using hdmi sources?


----------



## nashou66

Gino, it depends sometimes on the player being used and if you using all the default resolutions in the Tv-One. The Tv-one likes to pick the closest input res if it cant' find the exact one. this is an issue really only during the start up of movie where some of the material is not true [email protected], so it blanks out etc till it finds the proper res, but if you have lots of choices in the Tv-Ones resolution library it might stick to one resolution you don't want to use( like 1080i). So i eliminated them all and only set it up with [email protected], 1064x800 and 1056x817 and thats it. I will add another one for 1.78 content at some point but you can use the aspect control in the unit to not really need it, but then you do alter the true resolution a bit.


Also If you dont need the DVDO try to not use it at first, one reason is you need to then make an exact copy of the timing numbers from the Vp50 to the Tv-one. I just left my lumagen out for now and it works great as is I might use it now since there is no gamma adjustment in the Tv-ones yet, not sure when they'll do it, if ever.


But try it either way with and with out its a simple swap out Gino, I like the Mux ,avoids any issues if any might show up.


But HDCP was not an issue for me its the resolution choices of the player that I had problems with.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Hey guys I also got this message from Robert today:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tv_OneEngineer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> TV One Support (Europe) 16/11/2009 12:03:50
> 
> Hi Athanasios,
> 
> Ok we have looked at the video you sent over and the glitch that you see is not the cause of the problem we have done some further tests here and found that the color banding that you see has nothing to do with the blend - it is an issue at a different level we are currently looking into where the issue lies. There are no plans to add multipoint controls in the near future, but we hope to have a fix for the banding on gradients which is what you are seeing.
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> Robert



Bob,I sent a reply to him asking if they are completely ignoring the gamma adjustment or just postponing it, i think the former ( I hope).


I dont think they will forget it since they spent all the energy to have the protocols in place in the unit, Just no software. So i threw in the question if they want to subcontract out the software writing to your niece!! Lets see what he say's and if he will ask his superiors about it.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> So it is still necessary to include a moome/hdcp stripper before the tvone's when using hdmi sources?



Gino - I'm pretty sure that Athanasios uses Moomes after the TVOne's - Correct me if I'm wrong here, Athanasios.


Gino, in order to eliminate any issues, you might consider getting an HD-SDI mod and then using an HD-Link to convert to DVI to feed your Lumagen. That way you get rid of any potential HDCP ******** and free up your HDMI for audio use only. Just a thought.



> Quote:
> this is an issue really only during the start up of movie where some of the material is not true [email protected], so it blanks out etc till it finds the proper res,



I don't have this problem. Perhaps it is because of the HD-SDI, or maybe it is the BD player difference?




> Quote:
> Bob,I sent a reply to him asking if they are completely ignoring the gamma adjustment or just postponing it, i think the former ( I hope).



Well, this doesn't really surprise me, but actually I appreciate the honesty instead of leading us on the way DVDO does. Looks like I will be ordering a pair of SpectraCal's CMS boxes as soom as they come out. Maybe they will have a twofer sale?



Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Gino - I'm pretty sure that Athanasios uses Moomes after the TVOne's - Correct me if I'm wrong here, Athanasios.



Nope, its before the C2-2250's , it has two outputs a DVI and HDMI that are exact in output. I also can use the 4 inputs on the MUX, all HDMI.



> Quote:
> I don't have this problem. Perhaps it is because of the HD-SDI, or maybe it is the BD player difference?



I think its due to my LG Bh100 and BH200, the Bh100 only outputs 24hz but the Tv-One was showing the input vale at [email protected], its a weird anomaly as I am sure the BH100 does not do [email protected]







So my issue was the player most likely and I dont think any other players would cause a problem, I never tried the BH200 without the MUX, I should some day and compare it to my Gefen DVI splitter.




> Quote:
> Well, this doesn't really surprise me, but actually I appreciate the honesty instead of leading us on the way DVDO does. Looks like I will be ordering a pair of SpectraCal's CMS boxes as soom as they come out. Maybe they will have a twofer sale?



I think they will add it Bob, just not as urgent as fixing the current issues, i am sure others in the commercial industries have different issues that TV-One must also be working on. So an Add on feature like the Blend zone point gamma is not top priority.


I would wait for now Bob since the Gamma they proposed is for the Blend I think, or at least 90% sure, so the color management boxes you plan to order will only help the global gamma. I do not think it would help much. What really helps is getting the full field to be even in brightness at all IRE's , so the zone contrast at the blend edge is critical. I can't see getting it any other way, and tying into that is having both PJ's track greyscale and primaries and secondaries as close as possible, an exact match would be the best and we would then have no need for blend zone point gamma adjustments. the Y value(luminance) in the calibration should all match at all IRES i would think, correct?


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> What really helps is getting the full field to be even in brightness at all IRE's , so the zone contrast at the blend edge is critical. I can't see getting it any other way, and tying into that is having both PJ's track greyscale and primaries and secondaries as close as possible, an exact match would be the best and we would then have no need for blend zone point gamma adjustments. the Y value(luminance) in the calibration should all match at all IRES i would think, correct?




I agree 100%. Even if TVOne does finally do it, it will probably be much later than the arrival of Spectracal's magic boxes and will probably not have as much adjustability. Hey, I like new toys!


Especially since my XGLC's don't have zone control like the Marquee's (they have a side to side and top to bottom balance control), I have a method in mind that I want to try with the Spectracal's:

If I put the sensor exactly in the middle of the blend zone, I can adjust for a perfect gray scale on one projector, and then get a perfect match on luminance for each color and IRE on the second projector. That way, not only would I get a perfect gray scale, but a perfect match in luminance because the absolute values of the sensor readings will be repeatable. It will probably take a day, but well worth it. what do you think?


Two questions: I have a couple of the Moome Mux's but always assumed that the HDMI output did not pass the new lossless audio codecs. Is this correct, or are you getting them?


Also, I noticed you are using a 1.3 screen - Do you see any problems with the blend as a result?



Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17544774
> 
> 
> I agree 100%. Even if TVOne does finally do it, it will probably be much later than the arrival of Spectracal's magic boxes and will probably not have as much adjustability. Hey, I like new toys!
> 
> 
> Especially since my XGLC's don't have zone control like the Marquee's (they have a side to side and top to bottom balance control), I have a method in mind that I want to try with the Spectracal's:
> 
> If I put the sensor exactly in the middle of the blend zone, I can adjust for a perfect gray scale on one projector, and then get a perfect match on luminance for each color and IRE on the second projector. That way, not only would I get a perfect gray scale, but a perfect match in luminance because the absolute values of the sensor readings will be repeatable. It will probably take a day, but well worth it. what do you think?
> 
> 
> Two questions: I have a couple of the Moome Mux's but always assumed that the HDMI output did not pass the new lossless audio codecs. Is this correct, or are you getting them?
> 
> 
> Also, I noticed you are using a 1.3 screen - Do you see any problems with the blend as a result?
> 
> 
> 
> Bob



I was thinking about trying that method as well(middle of screen), but with the marquee it has corner adjustments as well so if i wanted to match luminance id have to shift the IRE boxes to each corner or use the full field and then also move the probe to each location, 3 all together for at least the blend zone then 3 more for the outer edges if i really wanted to.


But the problem with using our consumer probes is , are we getting the exact same distance and angle to each tube that will affect the readings? This is even with facing the screen since we need the meter close to get a better reading . even with an Eye One pro i cant get ti the same each time, i did an experiment to see how close i could position and re position the probe to get the same lumen level for the initial Greyscale using Calman. No matter what I did i could not get the same reading for light output off the 100% IRE by re positioning the meter to what i thought was the same placement.

Now if I had a Klien meter where i could position it further away i am sure i would do much better.

I wonder if there is a place i could rent one for a week. I should call Spectracal they might have a rental program.



I am not sure about the Mux and audio, i use the analog outs, i have no HDMI receiver/pre pro.


Regarding the 1.3 screen, I have no comparison to a unity gain so I am not sure. I just assume from what Andy and others have said including Hurley Screen company, that for a blend you need a true unity gain to help eliminate the blend zone.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> even with an Eye One pro i cant get ti the same each time,



Exactly! I have found the same thing - That's why if I put it in the middle and never move it or unplug it, I should be able to get accurate repeatable readings. Also if it is in the center (close to the screen) there should be no reflective differences between the two projectors with my 1.0 screen. Even with a screen that has some gain, they should be identical as the angles are identical.


Bob



Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17545294
> 
> 
> Exactly! I have found the same thing - That's why if I put it in the middle and never move it or unplug it, I should be able to get accurate repeatable readings. Also if it is in the center (close to the screen) there should be no reflective differences between the two projectors with my 1.0 screen. Even with a screen that has some gain, they should be identical as the angles are identical.
> 
> 
> 
> Bob



But don't you think that since the edges are not as bright you'll get a weird effect of having the 1/4 and 3/4 section of screen too bright?


Hmmm you gave me an idea i should try. set grey scale using the normal method for the one PJ(center of that half) then adjust the contrast zone modulation per Craigs method. then do the other PJ the same way. then afterwards use your method and redo greyscale on both PJ's using the center of the whole screen one PJ at a time with edge Blend off.


Then if need be fine tune Zone contrast to taste for each PJ individualy.


Or Just call Ken Whitcomb or Craig Rounds










Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> But don't you think that since the edges are not as bright you'll get a weird effect of having the 1/4 and 3/4 section of screen too bright?




Not really that concerned about it, as I never really noticed much of a difference before I started blending. That tells me that while absolute differences might not be noticed, slight differences are easily noticed in the blend zone, so I'll make the sacrifice outside the zone.




> Quote:
> Or Just call Ken Whitcomb or Craig Rounds



I guess this is a way I can justify the cost of the Spectracal's!!!


----------



## Boilermaker

Gino - I'm dying of curiosity! How is your new setup coming along?


Bob


----------



## Gino AUS

Sorry Bob, ran out of time before my brothers visit unfortunately. He leaves sunday so will resume again then.


----------



## nashou66

here are some new shots, calibration by eye, my i1 is acting up.


new Moome card gamma is nice!! it works better than the last version. I liek the upgrade.





























This where the gamma did wonders, on the old moome card the bark was more or less just one or two shades, here you can see much more detail.




















I hope they fixe the line issue too!!!!


come on Gino get to work on your set up!!!


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Athanasios - Lookin' awesome!!!


I see you are using the gamma boost in your Moome boxes - It is an absolute necessity once you use it the first time and see the difference. Did you have a hard time matching the boost on both?


I am waiting for Spectracal to release more info on their cms box, perhaps even the operation manual. I assume that 0nce these are in place, I can do away with my Cresendo gamma boxes and allow the Spectracal's to do the boosting in the digital domain. Have you tried this yet with your Lumagen's cms?


Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/17610543
> 
> 
> Athanasios - Lookin' awesome!!!
> 
> 
> I see you are using the gamma boost in your Moome boxes - It is an absolute necessity once you use it the first time and see the difference. Did you have a hard time matching the boost on both?
> 
> 
> I am waiting for Spectracal to release more info on their cms box, perhaps even the operation manual. I assume that 0nce these are in place, I can do away with my Cresendo gamma boxes and allow the Spectracal's to do the boosting in the digital domain. Have you tried this yet with your Lumagen's cms?
> 
> 
> Bob



Hi Bob, i don't find it necessary to beat the blend zone bug but its just an over all gain in the low level details. its only one or two click up from the the off setting, that first boost "click" is much larger than the original Gamma control on the version 1.2 Vim-Hd i had. then it seams to be much less increase along the way.


But bad news from Tv-one on the line issue they say in the RGB mode it need a total redesign . they said the YUV out does not show this as much. I did not see that unless somewhere in my system i am not converting it right or my settings are wrong or my Player outputs RGB and not YUV via HDMI? I have no clue. if i set all things to auto its all RGB if i force YUV fromthe Moome MUX and then set all the Tv-ones to YUV I get the purple and green

colots but the end of the blend zone is then much more pronounced.

so thats not it. I might need to add the lumagen in AFTER the Tv-one to see what is going on. The Moome cards YUV LED does not ever turn on, so it might be the BD player. I have to try to borrow a player or look up what the specs say.


needles to say i am very upset and hope they either fix it or refund us money or give us credit towards any new unit they may develop that eliminates this.


I still think they are looking in the wrong place, I think its not a conversion issue since i still see it in YUV out mode, and i have the MUX force YUV so its doing a conversion possibly, not sure. I first need to make sure I can have a BD player that outs YUV(YCbCr).


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> they say in the RGB mode it need a total redesign



For some reason, this makes no sense. By total re-design, I'm assuming there would need to be a hardware change? I can't see that at all.




> Quote:
> they said the YUV out does not show this as much.




By saying "as much", are they saying there is a fundamental flaw, so they are just going to let it ride?


But, for some strange reason that is way above my pay scale, this anomaly is only visible when there is an obvious color misbalance - usually on bright all-white fields.

The rest of the time, it either doesn't exist, or it is invisible. I guess that's why it is above my pay scale!


Bob


----------



## nashou66

Ok i did some testing and also took pics, here is my responce over the Tv one support desk on line and I attached the pics I will post here as well.

_Hi Robert and Richard,


I Still think its something different, here's why and I attached some pics, all are YUV outputs from the Tv-one to the HDMI card in my PJ. I have the output menu set to YUV, then i have the source menu set to D-YUV but i get the same issue with auto so I only took the pics with the D-YUV.


First off the lines are still there adjusting the gama in the blend zone does alter those lines some. either increases their visabliltiy or diminishes them to some extent.

I have a blend zone of 209. I can lower it and the lines seem to be reduced but they are just squished together , which to me just masks the problem. But if I do this I can not get the gamma adjusted to where i see no bright or light area inthe zone. Still wish we had some point control of the gamma in the blend zone it help out a lot!!!! Then we could decrease the blend zone to deminish the lines and adjust the intensity of the blend zne brightness for each IRE better I would assume. But I digress....


Second, green is the only color getting the proper blend applied in YUV mode. look at the pics of the red,and white field, the green blends fine but red and blue do not as evident of the

magenta color on the white field pic with the blend on.


Looking at the red alone you see the hard edge i have been talking about.


Now in the RGB mode the colors all blend fine just the lines are present and it doesnt matter if in YUV mode they are the same, maybe a bit less defined but still visable.



Thanks again, I know your on Holiday so I hope you enjoy your time with the family.



Athanasios Hatzinerantzis_


ok so here are some pics of the problem. All in YUV output.


Full White Field at 50%











Green 50%











Red 50% but the edge blending soes not work 100% here? Why????











Now at 100% IRE




















Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

I agree bob its Stupid. I am glad they looked into it but to say they can not do more at this time is not settling well with me.


I sent Robert a direct e-mail but he is on holiday till Dec 8th. maybe richard will read this responce sooner on the Support desk. I gave them my numbers to call me incase i am doing something wrong with regards to the YUV output, but fromthe one pic you see I got it right its just the two colors are not edge blending correctly, and even if they fix that the lines are still there.


Bob if you have a chance call me I am going back into the theater.


Athanasios(Nashou)


----------



## nashou66

Ok I took some shots of a full screen image going YUV all the way to the Projectors. As you can see in full YUV in / out the red and blue are not blending correctly where as green does.



























As you can see int he first pic there are lighter bars runing verticaly also out side the blend zone midway on each half, those are also an affect of the problem.


The camera does show it more than in person though. Also this full YUV has the wrong colors, so a calbration needs to be done as reds are way over saturated. Not even sure if I would be able to fix it with this issue, i don't feel like calibrating grey scale with the blend not blending just for the simple fact to see f I am really in YUV color space all the way through.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

sO gINO WHAT YOU BEEN UP TO?


----------



## nashou66

So Gino, What have you been up to?


Nashou


----------



## donaldk

I'm promised a seamless blend at ISE 2010 so they have a month and a half to fix any lines on the 2450.


New formulation in the announcement. Now pricing is 'retail' and has an Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price of 999,- UKP and 1120,- Euro, and no mention of these figure being without VAT, so it would be a more atractive price. Now if I am still on his mailinglist the Dutch distributor will probably be mailing me that he is looking for above list, or now MSRP;-).


Good thing I am not in the market for these devices;-).


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *donaldk* /forum/post/17746348
> 
> 
> I'm promised a seamless blend at ISE 2010 so they have a month and a half to fix any lines on the 2450.
> 
> 
> New formulation in the announcement. Now pricing is 'retail' and has an Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price of 999,- UKP and 1120,- Euro, and no mention of these figure being without VAT, so it would be a more atractive price. Now if I am still on his mailinglist the Dutch distributor will probably be mailing me that he is looking for above list, or now MSRP;-).
> 
> 
> Good thing I am not in the market for these devices;-).



Hi Donald, where did you hear this? I have been waiting for a response from Robert drake on this issue for awhile. Last contact to me via the tv-one help desk on their website was end of November. I also just sent them more info that i can not get my new Oppo player to output video through the Tv-ones with out the Moome MUX in the chain. I also think the Lg Bhxx players wont work either with out the MUX, its been a long time since I tested with out it so not sure. Also witht he MUX int he chain so I can get video and I turn on HDCP in the output menu the screen flashes with video noise.


So some thing is definitely wrong with these units. Aslo sending YUV from the Oppo to the Moome Card in the PJ does not pass it properly. How can they not see this problem? do all the users only output RGB and never tried YUV source direct to the display? I still have one more test to see if the MUX is removing some info that the TV-Ones need to know it had YUV coming in, that is connect the oppo>MUX>Moome HDMI Vim-HD with no Tv-One unit to see if the VIM-HD shows the YUV inputting properly. I verified that it does infact show a YUV with the Oppo connected directly, so the VIM-HD is not the propblem.


Athanasios


----------



## donaldk

Debbie send out one of her pre-ISE press releases:


BTW, a company is singular neuter, so the title should read TV One Shows Edge Blending at ISE 2010 with _its_ C2-2450A Dedicated Edge Blender


TV One Shows Edge Blending at ISE 2010 with their C2-2450A Dedicated Edge Blender


MARGATE, Kent UK, 17th December 2009 - TV One will be demonstrating their C2-2450A Edge Blender for the first time at ISE 2010 being held in Amsterdam in February. Using two of these dedicated units TV One will show the simplicity and cost-effectiveness of producing bigger and brighter displays without the use of large, expensive projectors.


Two C2-2450A edge blending units will be simultaneously fed a single DVI source and using their internal CORIO®2 processing engines, the video will be prepared and output to two vertically stacked rear-projectors. The projected image from these *will be blended seamlessly together* (my emphasis) using the TV One units to create a tall and clear display from the original DVI video.


The C2-2450A has been designed specifically to facilitate the quick and easy set up of edge blend applications. It has dedicated front panel push buttons for various functions such as turning the edge blend guidelines on and off and also for switching to a full black or white output to assist with the black level adjustment and gamma correction respectively. Pixel accurate scaling is also available to support virtually any edge blending application and because of the ability to feather' any or all of the edges, multiple images can be aligned horizontally, vertically or both to create unusual displays.


It has a manufacturers suggested retail price of £999 (1120) and will be on demonstration throughout the entirety of the ISE 2010 Exhibition on the TV One stand 3B90. Visit http://www.tvone.eu for more information.


Click here here to download MSWord version of press release...



###


To download an accompanying image suitable for publishing along with this news release, please use link http://www.tvone.co.uk/press_photos.shtml


----------



## nashou66

yeah well thats what got us to buy it, but it is not a feathered edge, its fractional and not linear as it should be. Even Robert said this in an email to me on the issue. they said at this moment they have no plans to alter the "architecture" to fix the issue. What does this mean? your Guess is as good as mine. I still am vigilantly going to keep at them to fix the problem and also keep their promise to get the edge blend zone 256 gamma program written. We would love to have Andre do it since he knows the specifics that CRT needs, the specific needs of CRT will also help the digital side too i would assume.


Athanasios


----------



## donaldk

Could you expand on your non-linear, fractional, not feathered remark?


----------



## nashou66

Well I think they are going to try to move forward on the YUV issue i showed in a few pics above. response from Robert.



> _Quote:_
> _The YUV issue is because the system has never been tried in that configeration - so we would need to move where it is in the CORIO core, Ill have to talk to the Boss on how we can fix this.
> 
> 
> Robert_


_
_


So hopefully this might fix a few things, I also can not get my BD 83 Oppo player to work without the MUX-HD, but the Mux strips out some info the Tv-one needs to realize its getting a YUV signal, I dont know why Mooome even adds a YUV bypass if it an HDCP compliant device in the video chain can not read the source device's edid at least. So trying to go YUV straight through to the Vim HD is not possible now. I need to see why the HDCP and the Oppo are not working.


Athanasios


----------



## pkarmouche

So it's been quiet for a couple of months. *Is the following an accurate summary of where we stand with blending?*

1. The new TV ONE C2-2450a, where a pair are needed, can be had for $4k total (or less), but like the other TV ONE solutions exhibits vertical lines in the blend zone (but otherwise can produce an "invisible" blend zone if the two projectors are matched and calibrated for each other)

2. The DVX8022 (Blenzilla) solution produces an "invisible" blend zone withno issues however they are discontinued, hard to find, and more expensive than the TV ONE units

3. There are no otheracceptable blending solutions known at this time
I really want to see this work, as I know that a blended CRT solution would be SO much better than tyring to run a LCOS to 12-13' wide!


Paul


----------



## nashou66

Hi Paul,


Yes there are the vertical bars but they gave me beta firmware where in digital out mode its not "as" bad. the main thing is being able to get the same gamma from both PJ to be equal in the blend zone. that is really hard, the Tv one gamma helps but a more

precise control would totally eliminate it. They have in the units the protocols for the

256 point gamma adjustment, when and if that gets done it will be able to get a perfect blend. right now its close but not perfect. I also believe the most perfect set up is needed. That might eliminate the vertical bars if your able to size the different gradients on each edge on both Projectors the same they would then line up and over lap exactly therefore eliminating the vertical bars. They are there due to how they fade the image on the edges, its not a smooth fade its in steps from what I am seeing on the screen. And i think that since these were designed during the digital age of PJ's that its easier to line up pixels on a flat panel than with a CRT were the linearity,perfect drawn vertical lines etc, are difficult to get as perfect as in a fixed panel display, too many variables to take into account.


Athanasios


----------



## Tim in Phoenix




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pkarmouche* /forum/post/18195138
> 
> 
> .........
> 
> 2. The DVX8022 (Blenzilla) solution produces an "invisible" blend zone withno issues however they are discontinued, hard to find, and more expensive than the TV ONE units
> I really want to see this work, as I know that a blended CRT solution would be SO much better than tyring to run a LCOS to 12-13' wide!
> 
> 
> Paul




Hello


The DVX8022 is costlier at about $13K but is readily available, one unit does it all, read more here: http://www.analogway.com/product/DI-VENTIX 



.


----------



## nashou66

Ok This thread has been dead for sometime so I thought id post some screen shots of

my latest attempt. i am convinced no that with perfect color calibration a seamless blend is possible even with the slight issues of these units. Most of the troubles I believe are my lack of patients in doing a better matching of the two Pj's. I still have not mastered that aspect yet but I am getting closer and closer. A pro calibrating both to match is the best bet. But for now funds are tight and this is dome with an Eye One display 2 and ten touched up by eye. the Probe is off and i had to get whites corrected by eye.


Enjoy.....



































Athanasios


----------



## nashou66




----------



## nashou66

there is a beta firmware out for you TV-One blenders.

http://tvone.CRMdesk.com/image.aspx?mode=file&id=5824 

_Main changes:


1. The HDCP code has been re-written for improved interoperability and to show more status messages, which should help diagnostics.

2. DVI inputs and outputs are now HDMI Audio compatible (see note below).

3. Extra source diagnostic menu in 'System' menu to show incoming frequency and number of lines.

4. SDI inputs are now audio-enabled.

5. C2-6204 SDI output is now audio-enabled.



HDMI Audio setup


There are two stages required in order to enable HDMI Audio:


1. Firstly, in 'Adjust sources' change 'Display emul.' from 'DVI' to 'HDMI' for each source you want to be enabled for HDMI Audio. We've left the default as DVI as that is more compatible with PC graphics cards. Once changed, STORE your settings by holding the SELECT button in for a few seconds, and then turn the unit off and back on again. That forces all the sources to re-read the EDID data that has now changed.

2. In 'Adjust outputs' change 'Audio emb.' from [Off] to [On]. Also, select the DVI source you wish to route the audio from. Alternatively, select [WinA] instead of [On] so that the audio source always follows window A's video source.


You should now hear audio on your HDMI display.


For the C2-6204, audio will also be embedded onto the SDI output, and can also be routed from each SDI input.


For the C2-2000A series, audio can be routed from the SDI input, but unfortunately cannot be embedded back onto the SDI output.


If the 'Audio emb.' menu item does not appear in stage 2 then you have not attached an HDMI-compatible display. It's only shown if the EDID read from the display has the HDMI extension block, as otherwise audio cannot be sent.


Note that:

1. No audio delay is performed.

2. Audio routing is a hard 'cut' with no fading. You may hear a few pops when switching between audio sources.

3. If you switch to and from a source with no audio (e.g. DVI) then the audio may 'gurgle' - this is the display's audio-lock circuit getting back on-track.

4. No sample-rate conversion is performed.

5. Only 48kHz is supported.



Updates from previous beta 337:

1. Fixes problem if display with no HDCP or HDMI ability is connected.

2. Adds back C2-6204 audio embedding menu if no HDMI display attached.

3. Correctly recognizes if display has no HDCP ability.


PLEASE PASS BACK ANY COMMENTS YOU HAVE - IT IS ALWAYS APPRECIATED! THANKS _



I am going to give this a try and see if it eliminates my HDCP issues.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I am going to give this a try and see if it eliminates my HDCP issues.



Let me know how this works out. I'd like to be able to run the signal through my VideoEq's BEFORE the TVOne's instead of AFTER to eliminate the need for the two older Moome MUX's I have to use.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

Hi Bob, I only did a quick test and it is doing some weird things. I also still had the MUX-HD in the chain since I cant find my Gefen HDMI to DVI splitter so the HDCP was still being striped.


Anyhow here is what i witnessed,


One the color space got messed up. I double checked everything color space setting wise and it was exactly as it was before the update. I have to double check when i have more time.


Second is the HDCP, they added an HDMI emulator selection, it still does not allow an image when i select output HDCP on. All I get is noise, but this is different than before where i had the flashing noise/Image cycle. Now its just straight noise.


It might be due to the MUX. I am also waiting a new chip from Moome for my HDMI input card. This will allow me to force any color space input. So that might help with the color space issue. But the moome fix is really a way to fix that issue in the Tv-One unit.

So they still have some work to do if my testing was done correctly.



Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Thanks! I think I'll keep my firmware the way it is. I don't need to be chasing another colorspace issue! I just tried to update my Oppo and something went wrong and I can no longer get 4:2:2.


Bob


----------



## nashou66

Here is my youtube video of the issues with my lame narration














&fs=1" width="644" height="390">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&fs=1" />[*ATTN POSTER: YouTube Insert Error:* Something went wrong. Please make sure you added the video correctly. Click here to see how YouTube videos should be embedded. There could also be a technical issue that's not your fault. Click 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" target="_blank">here to view the video on YouTube's site. If this link doesn't work, you did something wrong.]


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

What a mess!


What exactly does the new chip from Moome actually allow you to do?


As you know, I am using the early generation of Moome's standalone boxes with RGBHV outputs. Does his newest version contain the new chip you speak about?


I was considering on getting the new ones just because of all the rave reviews it is getting as an improvement over the early ones. I would still prefer not to use them at all and use the analog outputs from the TVOne's.


BTW, have you tried using the analog outputs and bypassing your Moome input card with the new TVOne beta? Maybe that would work ?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

Not yet, I could try it maybe later.


here is Roberts response. I think a picture is worth a 1000 words to them.


I'll make videos from now on when i send them info.



> Quote:
> Hi Athanasios,
> 
> Good video ill go over it with richard - very strange stuff going on there....and let you know..
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> Robert



Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

I forgot to mention in the previous post. On the previous version before his newest marquee and sony input cards it had auto select for the color space. But some of us would like to have it be forced to do testing or if there are issues , like the one I am having. if Tv-one can not figure out the color space issue then I'll be able to force the Moome input card to accept YCbCr 422. this way i'll be able to know for sure if its a hand shake issue between the tv one and the moome, if so then tv one would have to fix that since it selects the correct color space from the oppo directly and from the radiance. its only with the Tv-One in the chain i get improper color space issues.



Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

I agree - That video certainly shows them they have a problem that they can see! Hopefully if they solve that problem it will also solve the issue that forces me to use the digital outputs! Keep us posted.


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## nashou66

Bob, your lucky you did not use the update, i tried to go back to the original v270 firmware and now it still looks the same. I can not get the correct color space !!!

I tried to use RGB in the oppo then the radiance and then the Tv-ones and the moome MUX and its still all messed up. I think the beta messed things up in an area not touched by the older firmwares and now revising back to the last official version will not bring the unit back.


What is the factory reset method? I forgot how its done but I do think it is possible. that might fix the color space issue.


Athanasios


----------



## dvh99

1 word.... diventix.

you do not even sound greek i am a little disappointed.


----------



## nashou66

Found it:



> Quote:
> 5.4.3 Factory Reset
> 
> 
> If you wish to restore all operational parameters to their original condition (for
> 
> example, if saved settings prevent the unit from working with your display monitor),
> 
> hold the STANDBY/ON and the multi-directional switch in together until two beeps
> 
> are heard.



Nashou


----------



## nashou66

Messed around with it tonight a bit and found out after the Beta update what happened was it lost ability to accept YCbCr 422 input on the D-YUV setting. I was changing the outputs on the Radiance and when I went to 444 out the colors were corrected. So they have to look into that, also now on the AVS-HD disc the pattern that flashes red,green,and blue colors with a slightly different shade of the same color does not flash, meaning the bit space is off (0-255 or 15-235) not sure what is happening there. I have to check the Oppo to see what bit space I am outputting and also in the radiance mess around with the dithering option. Might be my Moome card but cycling through all 3 of its setting shows the same problem.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Did the factory reset option work?


Bob


----------



## Tim in Phoenix

Guys!


With no training, I set up my DVX in thirty minutes with zero problems.


----------



## Tim in Phoenix

Guys!


With no training, I set up my DVX in thirty minutes with zero problems.


----------



## nashou66

It wasn't the factory reset. The beta firmware i think disabled the 422 input capability.

I switched the radiance to 4:4:4 and the color space worked fine.


To Tim, LOL,


Yeah setting up the blend took me 5 minutes with these thats not the hard part

Aligning PJ's is. that was done long time ago. Now its just i finally went to a full

YCbCr signal path, all digital. Before I had to have it input Digital RGBHV and output the same. Plus with these units time I can do unlimited resolutions or timings, also blend top bottom all sides for unique and weird visual setups if i was using them for commercial applications. Staggered video walls using these to blend digital PJ is cake. And the scaling these do, especially the 1:1 pixel mapping is as good or even better than Lumagens. the only flaw these have is lack of Full CMS for the entire image. They will eventually add this.

Also they said they could add separate CMS for the blend Zone only, for CRT were there is drop of on the edges this would be golden!


Plus its ability to do [email protected] ( maybe more the display they had was maxed out)

makes it the highest bandwidth scaler out there.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> With no training, I set up my DVX in thirty minutes with zero problems.



Yes Tim, but just think of all the fun you missed out on!


Also, tell the truth - How many blended commercial jobs have you done over the years?



Bob


----------



## Tim in Phoenix

Say Bob


Five or six, all in Michigan, and I believe all but one was stereoscopic. We had partnered with Silicon Graphics. Their computers would render cars in stereo, the Panoram box did the contrast modulation, and we supplied the Marquees. About five years ago we brought in Folsom Research and ran some demos in my garage, they had promised me a blend box called DisplayPro HD for $15K, but they could not round up enough orders to go ahead with it. I discovered DVX shortly after, and ordered one right after the demo.


----------



## Boilermaker

Tim - The way I look at it - It's all your fault!!!


It has been over three years since I saw your first DVX blend very soon after you just set it up. I knew as soon as I saw it that I had to have it. If I would have had the spare $$$ at the time, I would have flown back to Lexington with it in my luggage!


After some research, I found that TVOne had an inexpensive PC card solution, but it had one major shortcoming - it only had analog inputs. But conversations with them promised a new hardware solution that would overcome this problem and would also have vastly increased bandwidth capacity. Unfortunately it was never produced until a year later and I received serial numbers 0001 and 0002.


Then it took a considerable amount of time/money to totally renovate my HT to allow for the projectors to be hung from a 12' ceiling without looking horrible, and to increase the screen size. This all required much work and a substantial amount of structural work to my ceiling to safely support about 800 lbs.


The actual setup & convergence of the projectors was not really a problem, but I did encounter some compatibility issues that have been worked out.


The biggest problem was that any/all differences in the two projectors is noticable, and objectionable. Perhaps there are some excellent calibrators out there that could do it, but I'm not one of them. I have to cheat! The final solution was in the purchase of a pair of VideoEq's that allowed me to achieve the desired results. It is painful to realise that someday, TVone will offer this for free in a firmware upgrade, but I was impatient.


While it has taken three years and more money than I originally thought, I would absolutely do it again from scratch - Especially since I have already paid the price for the rather long learning curve!


The two HUGE advantages that blending can give us have finally been realized for me:


1 - Full tube face usage for greatly increased light output and increased resolution capability.

2 - Nearly a 50% decrease in video bandwidth of the signal each projector sees. Bandwidth is no longer an issue.



Other than price, there are three differences that I see between the only two hardware systems available that I know about:


1 - DVX is a one box solution. The TVOne's require an HDMI or DVI splitter.


2 - The TVOne's have but one digital input requiring a conventional scaler to perform input switching and easy AR control if you use a 2.35/2.4 screen with multiple inputs.


3 - Whereas the DVX solution has only "computer" resolutions available for outputs, the TVOne's allow you to use custom generated resolutions and refresh rates. IMHO, this is very important, as it has the ability to select resolutions that can allow the saving of needless bandwidth waste, and also allow the selection of resolutions that will not create any scaling artifacts.



Either way, having made most every mistake that could possibly be made, I could now set up a blend in a couple of days.



Thanks,

Bob


----------



## didaschi

Hello,


is it possible to use two tvone scaler for two digital projectors like 2 x JVC or 2 x Sony to realise a blend?


If its not possible, please explain why?


regards


didaschi


----------



## didaschi

Thank you for the answer.


Ok, as far as I unterstand Mviewtech solution is only for two digital projectors.


So, if I intend for the next 3-4 years to blend two CRT Proj. like 2 Sony G70 or 2 G90 I better use TVone 2250a with all its possibilties. And if I intend to change in 4 years from CRT to digital Proj., is it possible to use the same TVone 2250a for those digital ones too?


didaschi


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *didaschi* /forum/post/19048452
> 
> 
> Thank you for the answer.
> 
> 
> Ok, as far as I unterstand Mviewtech solution is only for two digital projectors.
> 
> 
> So, if I intend for the next 3-4 years to blend two CRT Proj. like 2 Sony G70 or 2 G90 I better use TVone 2250a with all its possibilties. And if I intend to change in 4 years from CRT to digital Proj., is it possible to use the same TVone 2250a for those digital ones too?
> 
> 
> didaschi



Yes you can use them for any projector. And they actualy do better with digital

I am told. There is a few other units you can use as well.


I discovered a new unit that would be the least expensive edge blending unit. Using [email protected] on each unit the 1T-C2-760 is a cheaper solution

to the C2-22xx units.

ftp://ftp.tvoneftp.com/SpecSheets/Sp...2-760-ver1.pdf 


PM me if you want prices.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> is it possible to use two tvone scaler for two digital projectors like 2 x JVC or 2 x Sony to realise a blend?



Yes, actually they were designed for digital projectors.


But why? For HT use with a 1.78 or 2.40 AR screen, there is little to gain and the absolute black level will be raised by a factor of 2.


If you need more light output, buy a bigger projector with a bigger bulb.



Bob


----------



## nashou66

Guys, this is a thread for Tv-One Edge Blend solutions.

If you want to peddle those crap Chinese units do it in your own thread.


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Well zone contrast modulation is a Must!!!!!!


I know I always say this but this is the best for sure!! Just have to tweak out the 100 IRE gamma and a few spots in between.


I also have a slight linearity issue in the center. I messed something up when sitting on the remote with my fat ass and lost the settings and I never saved the file in the Marquee loader










I also found that my DIY HCFR meter worked better in the low end with HCFR than CalMan or Chromapure and the i 1 Pro or my Chroma 5 probe. I say this cause it was more stable with in readings, not as much jumping around. id it is as accurate or not i can't say but Id rather have consistent readings in the low end then erratic.


The Radiance XS's also helped out more than you know and a PM from Ken Whitcomb to solidify and confirm my workflow process.


I used the radiance internal patterns in calman and the marquee controller program to first get 30 and 100 % windows close on each PJ. hen i went back and checked the 30 % window with Green only ad measured the luma, i moved the probe over and matched the other PJ's green 30 % luma. I then did the same with 100% green's luma, using G2 and Drive respectfully.


I then redid 30 and 100 % RGB in the PJ. now I moved to zone contrast, i set a 100% window and lowered contrast to

30 from 50. Here i used the marquee controller Program and did each color at the top , center and bottom edges where the blend zone would be. Blend zone is off of course and using a full field pattern. I did this on both PJ's. then I went back and raised contrast to 50 and then did the same thing in the zones but with white on not only each color and used the marquee controller program to do RGB contrast in each zone in the blend area. The Marquee controller program is awesome cause you never see any menu on the screen to contaminate your readings. You can select the zone to work on and the color to adjust all on one screen, just awesome!!!


After that was done I redid the center 30 and 100% white windows with the pattern not sized for the raster but put into full blend configuration but with the blend zone off. This put the window patterns in the center of the screen where the blend zone is. I put the probe there and redid the PJ RGB at those %'s mentioned above.


Once that was done i was surprised to see how well even with no radiance greyscale done the blend zone was!!!


So now I did the Greyscale interactive mode with CalMan v4.1 and the radiance XS. did that and getting 20 and 10 % sucks that way. Still got the erratic readings at 10 more than 20 so I decided to try my home made probe and HCFR and do it manually. I then adjusted Contrast and Brightness on both PJ's .


Got that done just now and took some pics



































































I used a gamma of 2.35 but have to tweak it out. I might try 2.25, or 2.3

and see how it all looks. But for now I am very happy.


Athanasios


----------



## UFOAbductT

Have you tried 3d with your tvone blend? Would it work in theory? I'm thinking of trying a blend with two c2-1350 units.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *UFOAbductT* /forum/post/19752500
> 
> 
> Have you tried 3d with your tvone blend? Would it work in theory? I'm thinking of trying a blend with two c2-1350 units.



Not yet. It should work fine. Since each PJ runs lower bandwidth we should be able to go up to 120hz.


Let me know when you want those units I can get you a good price.


Athanasios


----------



## UFOAbductT

I actually have the tvone units now but I don't have a 2.35 screen yet or any 3d equipment.


----------



## nashou66

Ahh I see. Where are you located?


Athanasios


----------



## UFOAbductT

I live in Hopkins, MN.


----------



## nashou66

What PJ's do you plan to use?


----------



## UFOAbductT

I've used a G90 for about 4 years with a 16:9 screen and recently bought another one.


----------



## nashou66

Nice, you should be able to do a good job, what are you going to use for a splitter. Overclkr is selling his NEC switcher with a Moome card and RGBHV outs.


Athanasios


----------



## UFOAbductT

I've been playing with an INLINE brand distribution amplifier.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *UFOAbductT* /forum/post/19757557
> 
> 
> I've been playing with an INLINE brand distribution amplifier.



here is the for sale link, this will be much better. Cliff used it for his Stack. it will work great for the blend. and allow 1080p input to the TV ones .

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewt...asc&highlight= 


Athanasios


----------



## UFOAbductT

AVS added a link to an advertisement, I'm actually using an inline DAG152.


----------



## UFOAbductT

For 3d, I was curious if having the infa-red emitter (for the shutter glasses) plugged into the source box before the video signal hit the distribution amp and tvone units would work. I thought maybe the glasses would get out of sync with the screen because of processing delays.


----------



## nashou66

You can make a sync box that runs off the sync of the BNC's i think. Someoen made one where they took the sync from either the H or V and used that to drive the sync box they made to send the IR signal.


Some one posted a link on Curts site in a 3D discussion.


Athanasios


----------



## UFOAbductT

That sounds like it would end up being the right way to go.


----------



## nashou66

I think Craig Rounds who is an Engineer and a G90 owner and Calibrator made up a circuit that runs off the G90. But not sure if it was from the Internal Moome Card or someplace else.


CIRengineering is his company. he is in Europe now on a calibration tour I think.


But look over on curts CRT forum for the 3D threads. lots of info there on it. Craig also posted some info on the Radiance VP threads here and over at Curts.



let me tell you for a perfect blend you need completely perfect gamma and greyscale as well as RGB luminance and CYM hues very close. G90's do have zone contrast right? so you can boost up the edges in the blend Zone? That is a must. The drop of of brightness in a crt at the edges hurts Gamma responce. you need to be able to get the gamma perfect in the blend zone for at least 10 IRE's otherwise you'll see it.


Athanasios


----------



## UFOAbductT

I think you are right, I will run into the most problems trying to get the grayscale correct. I'm guessing it will take a lot of time and practice to minimize the blend zone.


----------



## nashou66

Yep, i'm still working on it. I had it almost perfect and messed up the setting on my PJ and lost the Zone Contrast that took me 5 hours to get!!


So i did a quick eye ball and watch it like that for now. I will get back to it one day.


Athanasios


----------



## UFOAbductT

Thanks for the suggestion on the sync circuit. Someone posted a link to this vga sync extractor http://www.int03.co.uk/crema/hardware/stereo/ that I think I will try right before the video hits the projector.


----------



## nashou66

New Firmware released for TV-One C2-2000A series.

http://tvone.CRMdesk.com/answer.aspx...pe%3d0%23p9847 


C2-2000A firmware version 368: Firmware Version 368.exe 


Changes:

1. The HDCP code has been re-written for improved interoperability and to show more status messages, which should help diagnostics.

2. DVI inputs and outputs are now HDMI Audio 48kHz compatible (see HDMI input / output support).

3. Extra source diagnostic menu in 'System' menu to show incoming frequency and number of lines.

4. SDI inputs are now audio-enabled and can feed to a HDMI display.

5. Slight scaling error on right-edge of screen fixed.

6. Occasional YUV input error on C2-2000A fixed.

7. Improved ethernet reliability.



HDMI input/ output support:



For: C2-2000A series units, C2-6000 series units, C2-2375A


These units, with version 368 or above firmware, now support HDMI inputs and outputs (where a DVI output connector is present).

*By default, the inputs are set to DVI mode - therefore to change an input to HDMI compatibility, you need to go into 'Adjust sources' and set the 'EDID' to 'HDMI' and not 'DVI'. Store the new setting by holding the menu button in until a beep is heard, and then re-boot the unit. Any new source will then see an HDMI EDID packet and know that it can send HDMI video and audio.


The output is automatically set to HDMI if the display supports this.
*

To use the audio from an HDMI source, a new menu is present in 'Adjust outputs' called 'Audio emb' that lets you select which audio source to send to the display. By default, this is 'Mute'. Setting it to 'On' then lets you change the audio source, or set it to 'WinA' for it to follow the currently select video source.


For units with SDI inputs, the audio is now de-embedded and can be routed to the output.



The Bold Highlighted text is what interest's me. These unit were suppose to be HDCP compatible but I never got them to see the Moome internal card to allow an HDCP encrypted signal to pass therefore forcing me to use the MUX-HD before to eliminate any HDCP issues. If this release fixes the communication between the TV-One and the Display(VIM-HD) then i can eliminate the MUX-HD and use a normal HDMI splitter which carries Audio. This is important because in this latest Firmware they clain to have at least 48khz audio on the DVI in's and Outs of the TV-One units. This would be the first units with DVI that I know of that can carry HDMI audio even if it is limited to only 48khz


Hopefully I can get the TV-ones to work with HDCP on for input and output.

that is the biggest thing I am hoping for out of this firmware.


Athanasios


----------



## cinema mad

Sorry to bump an old but excellent thread,


Athanasios Your last lot of pics look very good, just finished reading the whole 28 pages & have A couple more questions for ya







,


what is left to do if anything with your blend setup..


Is the YUV (YCBCR) now fixed with the C2's


Bang for buck If you were to do blending over again would you use The TV-ONES C2-2450a or another model or brand ..


Thanks to Yourself , Gino and Bob AKA Boilermaker Im giving serious thought to doing A Blend but weighing up all options first







..


Jase...


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cinema mad* /forum/post/20368895
> 
> 
> Sorry to bump an old but excellent thread,
> 
> 
> Athanasios Your last lot of pics look very good, just finished reading the whole 28 pages & have A couple more questions for ya
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ,
> 
> 
> what is left to do if anything with your blend setup..
> 
> 
> Is the YUV (YCBCR) now fixed with the C2's
> 
> 
> Bang for buck If you were to do blending over again would you use The TV-ONES C2-2450a or another model or brand ..
> 
> 
> Thanks to Yourself , Gino and Bob AKA Boilermaker Im giving serious thought to doing A Blend but weighing up all options first
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> Jase...




Thanks Jase for the nice comments.


I still have to dial in the CMS in the blend zone by using the marquee's contrast modulation, I accidentally erased the previous settings which were really good. Those were the last screen shots I took. I wanted to fine tune it in the 0-20% and 80-100 % white range. This range is where the blend zone is most visible

if the Gamma is not perfectly matched to the other mid range gamma value. Getting Gamma correct and even across as many % of white values is paramount then Greyscale then Color hue and saturation. This would be mute if blend processors had adjustability of the blend zone Gamma at individual % white values. As of now the Blend zone gamma is universal.So a blend zone gamma setting of .33 is for all % white's. It be nice to change say the values of 10% 5% and 90% 100% in the blend zone to correct an inherent drop off or boost of gamma in CRT's.


This is where a secondary Video processor like any of the Radiance VP's the iScan Duo or the AV Foundry Video EQ is needed to adjust the gamma and CMS in all % white values.


It be great if this was built into the Tv-ones or any other Blend Processor but so far no one has this ability.


So my next step is to do that fine tuning with my Radiance XS's( I need two).


TV-One still has not fixed the YUV issue from my perspective at least. I use 444 out from my XS and then RGB out to the moome cards, for now this works well. I might try RGB straight from my Oppo all the way to keep it all the same with out any conversion going on.


If I was to do it all over again Id hire some one before spending money on all the Calibration probes etc. Although I do like learning and got pretty good at it

, its the years of expertise a pro has that I think is the missing link to my set up. Craig rounds might be the one to finish the job.


Also i would not have used AC units, i would have went to LC from the get go.

the slight Halo effect messes up the blend zone in some scenes.


TV-one is working on a new unit that addresses many of the issues I and others have had and will be HDMI units and not DVI only. Hopefully they will add 256 point gamma adjustment and possibly CMS to this unit. I have requested it but who knows. This would then be the ultimate Blend VP on the market.


We'll just have to wait and see.

Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker

Jase - First let me say that I agree 100% with what Athanasios said - we have had many conversations to get to where we are now.


Don't know why Nash jumped into blending (probably because he loves challanges!), but I did it because after seeing Tim's original blend I felt that the concept had the capability to achieve the highest picture quality of any available technology; crt or digital. I have not changed my mind.



> Quote:
> This is where a secondary Video processor like any of the Radiance VP's the iScan Duo or the AV Foundry Video EQ is needed to adjust the gamma and CMS in all % white values.
> 
> 
> It be great if this was built into the Tv-ones or any other Blend Processor but so far no one has this ability.



This is a 200% agreement as it would make it so much simpler and cheaper.


My only additional comment would be that I would not consider any hardware based blending that did not have the ability to do custom output resolutions and refresh rates. This is the only way to assure that there is no oddball scaling and you can greatly reduce the video bandwidth.


While it wasn't available at the time, The TVOne C2-2450A is functionally identical to the models Nash and I use, but at a lower pricepoint.


Bob


----------



## cinema mad

Thanks Athanasios & Bob I Appreciate you guys taking the time to offer your first hand advice & noted that Blending is A huge undertaking..


While I understand what you guys are saying regarding the need for fine Gamma/CMS allowing total control of the Blend zone & overall image. I take nothing away from what you guys have accomplished right now & no doubt Your current Blend setups offer far Superior image quality compared to A Single CRT projector setup..


Is there any word on when TV-One will be bringing out there next gen Blenders with HDMI...


Bob I didnt notice any pics of your setup/screen shots Id sure like to







..


Christie appear to have Blend solutions with most the required goodies mentioned for semless blends but way way out of price range

http://www.christiedigital.com/en-us...processor.aspx ..


I wonder if Gino ever got around to setting up his Blend/TV-ONE combo..


Jase..


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Is there any word on when TV-One will be bringing out there next gen Blenders with HDMI...



I don't know, but I remember Athanasios mentioning about new models. Actually, I prefer DVI to HDMI as they are physically stronger.




> Quote:
> Bob I didnt notice any pics of your setup/screen shots Id sure like to ..



There is an old thread both here and at Curt's site that has some pictures. Sorry, everytime I buy a camera I end up giving it to one of my kids, so I don't have one right now.



> Quote:
> Christie appear to have Blend solutions with most the required goodies mentioned for semless blends but way way out of price range



I just checked the specs, and it does not have custom output resolution capability. They only output normal computer standard resolutions.




> Quote:
> I wonder if Gino ever got around to setting up his Blend/TV-ONE combo..



I don't think he has posted in forever. I really miss his posts as he was really actively involved. Wish he would come back!


Bob


----------



## donaldk

 http://vistasystems.net/downloads/SpyderX20.pdf Rebadged Vista processors, high end indeed. At ISE Christie used two of these to have enough processing power to blend and warp a 3 Mirage projector curved blend.


----------



## cinema mad

Interesting donaldK, thanks for sharing


The Christie 10bit color/30bit Spyder 200/300 series does indeed appear to be A real nice all in one Blend/Video processor with all the trick's..


But theres A Higher end Christie-Spyder-X20 blender, can do up to 20 Mega pixel







there is 2 models in that series X20-0808 & X20-1608 @ $77,000 & $109,000 respectively







..


Bob Not that I could ever Afford the Spyder/Vista 200/300 series Blend processor but out of interest last night I emailed Christie regarding if custom resolutions are possible,

Input standard blu-ray 1920x1080p,800p @24Hz, out put [email protected] to each projector allowing (2.40:1) aspect..



The info I could fined on the net suggests @ least I interpret as the Spyder 200/300 series can do custom rez for blending with the PC based config software, But we will see..


Specs:Check out page 1 under Video Processing(specs


Inputs eccept virtually any input upto 2048x1200 resolution

& page 4 under outputs:upto A maximum of 2048x1200..

See Attached PDF


Jase..

 

Spyder_Datasheet_VD-EU.pdf 357.123046875k . file


----------



## cinema mad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/20373506
> 
> 
> I don't know, but I remember Athanasios mentioning about new models. Actually, I prefer DVI to HDMI as they are physically stronger.
> 
> I totally agree Bob the DVI connectors better but The main reasons I would prefer HDMI is so I can keep the entire Video Chain YcBcR 4:2:2 into the Moome V2s.. Sometimes you can run into issues with DVI YcBcR compatible products such as the TV-Ones and Lumagen DVI Scalers when trying to send YcBcR (YUV) Due to EDID and will revert back to RGB...
> 
> 
> 
> There is an old thread both here and at Curt's site that has some pictures. Sorry, everytime I buy a camera I end up giving it to one of my kids, so I don't have one right now.
> 
> Thanks for the tip I will defenatly take A Look
> 
> 
> I just checked the specs, and it does not have custom output resolution capability. They only output normal computer standard resolutions.
> 
> See My Above Post..
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think he has posted in forever. I really miss his posts as he was really actively involved. Wish he would come back!
> 
> Yes I haven't Seen any posts from Gino on any Forums inc the OZ DTV forum in A long time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob



Jase..


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Sometimes you can run into issues with DVI YcBcR compatible products such as the TV-Ones and Lumagen DVI Scalers when trying to send YcBcR (YUV) Due to EDID and will revert back to RGB...



I wasn't aware of that - perhaps that is the cause of the issue Athanasios mentioned.



> Quote:
> Inputs eccept virtually any input upto 2048x1200 resolution
> 
> & page 4 under outputs:upto A maximum of 2048x1200..
> 
> See Attached PDF



The wording on that pdf leads one to believe that you can choose any of the standard computer or video resolutions, but never states that the user can set up custom resolutions. I wonder if their respnse to your e-mail meant that you could custom order it with any res. up to 2048X1200?


Now if they would just add full grayscale/gamma/cms for each channel....!!!


BTW, how much $ is that puppy?



Bob


----------



## cinema mad

Bob Sorry for the confusion, I was just stating the Questions I put to Christie in the Email regarding if it can do Custom resolutions, AKA: Input standard blu-ray 1920x1080p,800p @24Hz, out put [email protected] to each projector allowing (2.40:1) aspect..


I haven't heard back from them as yet due to sending the Email late Friday

besides the Auto reply Email we will respond shortly, so I expect to get A answer by Monday and will post it here..


I agree that the Spyder 200/300 Series PDF I posted is not clear either way but we will see..


But I Did find this:

All inputs are equally functional, that means you can choose the maximum resolution and functions for every input/ & Spyder is not bound to limited pixel resolutions. You can use projectors with different resolutions.



Dont have A Clue how much one of these cost not cheap I would imagine..

The pricing also depends on how many input/outs you choose but model 222 comes standard with 2 ins 2 outs:

Analog RGBHV, DVI-, HD-SDI (3G-SDI SMPTE 424M optional) inputs /outputs


See attached PDF Spyder-Flyer page 2 for available models(200 Series)


Quote Bob

I wasn't aware of that - perhaps that is the cause of the issue Athanasios mentioned."


I Believe that EDID would likely be the case But CIR Craig says for A work around you can Remove Pin 15 I think it was on the DVI/HDMI adaptor or HDMI Cable so EDID cant be read, but Iv never tried this...


Jase..

 

Spyder_flyer_VD-EU.pdf 213.5390625k . file


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Quote Bob
> 
> I wasn't aware of that - perhaps that is the cause of the issue Athanasios mentioned."
> 
> 
> I Believe that EDID would likely be the case But CIR Craig says for A work around you can Remove Pin 15 I think it was on the DVI/HDMI adaptor or HDMI Cable so EDID cant be read, but Iv never tried this...



Athanasios - Are you listening?



Bob


----------



## nashou66

Pin 15? Are you sure?











Athanasios


----------



## cinema mad

Athanasios I would still check with Craig but the info is correct..

Pin 15 on the DVI-D end of the HDMI-DVI-D Addaptor

This is Compatable with Type A HDMI 1.3a (Type A-to-DVI-D wire Assignment) From HDMI Specification 1.3a PDF page 138 Type A-to DVI Adaptor Cable..


Pin 17 on the HDMI type A Cable..


See Attached Pin Assignment diagram for HDMI-to DVI addaptor,


Let us know how you go Athanasios as Id be interested to see if this solves the YUV issue..


Jase

 

Table C-2 Type A-To-DVI-D.zip 77.2001953125k . file


----------



## cinema mad

Sorry to be A little off topic..


Ok I got A reply from Christie regarding the All in one Vista Spyder 200/300 Series VP blender,it does indeed allow custom resolutions for input & outputs up to 210Mhz







..


Email Reply


Dear Sir,


1. With regard to your enquiry, Yes, it does.


2. Please let me know if you should need further information on our range of VISTA products.


3. Thank you.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


While I'm unsure of pricing at this stage regarding Christie's Vista Spyder model 222 stand alone, it would appear that this is yet another solution for Edge blending bringing the total to 3 product manufacturers that Im aware of (not including PC based).. TV-ONE by far still offer's the best value for Money especially if they can bring out all in one blender's with A full implementation of Calibration tools inc Zone & summed CMS/Grayscale providing us the option to do away with the current need to run secondary Video processor's like Radiance XE,XS VP's, iScan Duo or the AV Foundry Video EQ's in the Video Chain thus greatly reducing the overall price point to Achieve reference Projector Blending ....


Jase...


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> While I'm unsure of pricing at this stage regarding Christie's Vista Spyder model 222 stand alone, it would appear that this is yet another solution for Edge blending bringing the total to 3 product manufacturers that Im aware of (not including PC based).. TV-ONE by far still offer's the best value for Money especially if they can bring out all in one blender's with A full implementation of Calibration tools inc Zone & summed CMS/Grayscale providing us the option to do away with the current need to run secondary Video processor's like Radiance XE,XS VP's, iScan Duo or the AV Foundry Video EQ's in the Video Chain thus greatly reducing the overall price point to Achieve reference Projector Blending ....



Just for "****s and giggles", lets add 3D capability, and it would be the ultimate. And maybe an ap for control from my Ipad!



Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/20393632
> 
> 
> Just for "****s and giggles", lets add 3D capability, and it would be the ultimate. And maybe an ap for control from my Ipad!
> 
> 
> 
> Bob



Bob not sure if you know but the latest firmware for the TV-ones has 3D ability added If i remember correctly. I think I saw it in the menu structure somewhere

after i did the last update.


Athanasios


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> Bob not sure if you know but the latest firmware for the TV-ones has 3D ability added If i remember correctly. I think I saw it in the menu structure somewhere
> 
> after i did the last update.



Looks like that is the next project! Only stumbling block is that my VP50Pro doesn't handle 3D.



Bob


----------



## cinema mad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/20393632
> 
> 
> Just for "****s and giggles", lets add 3D capability, and it would be the ultimate. And maybe an ap for control from my Ipad!
> 
> 
> 
> Bob



Bob You Read my Mind







yes to Ipad..


I'm running A VP50 pro as well (Hopefully DVDO/Silicon image will update it soon for 3D & full CMS/ NOT







..


Jase


----------



## cinema mad

Athanasios, Wondering if you Have had A chance to mod you HDMI to DVI-D addapter

(Remove pin 15 on DVI-D)


Jase..


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I'm running A VP50 pro as well (Hopefully DVDO/Silicon image will update it soon for 3D & full CMS/ NOT ..



Not a chance, unfortunately. I spoke with them since the takeover and the only thing they will be doing with the VP50 series is repairs.


They will be bringing out some new products, perhaps based on the DUO.

What they are working on is trying to "clean up" the picture that we get from the new streaming services such as Netflix, etc.



Bob


----------



## donaldk

TV One Acquired by Nortek, Inc.


Erlanger, Kentucky, USA, May 18, 2011 - TV One announces the recent sale of one hundred percent of the Company?s stock to a subsidiary of Nortek, Inc., a leading diversified global manufacturer. The sale includes all TV One related, wholly-owned companies in the US, UK, Taiwan and China. TV One will be included in Nortek's Technology Products segment and closely aligned with Magenta Research LTD. The transaction was completed on April 28, 2011.


David K. Barnes, TV One CEO, stated, ?We recently celebrated our 25th anniversary in the Pro AV industry and have established a record of consistent growth, profitability and product innovation. At the upcoming InfoComm Show, we will launch an entirely new technology and product range that will usher in a new era for TV One. As part of the Nortek family of companies, I look forward to maximizing the opportunities that will take TV One to the next level. I personally look forward to being part of that continuing success.?


?TV One?s combination of its proprietary CORIO® scaling technology, unique products and solid growth is a perfect fit with Magenta,? added Magenta Research CEO Keith Mortensen.


Mortensen continued, ?The synergy between the two organizations is remarkable and TV One fits nicely into Nortek?s Pro AV strategy. Magenta plans to leverage TV One?s global sales network in order to enhance the market penetration of our products. The recent introduction of Voyager?, Magenta?s all-format fiber optic-based signal distribution platform, expands our infrastructure product range significantly and is a perfect match with TV One?s soon-to-launch video processing range.?


The two Companies will jointly exhibit at InfoComm in Orlando, June 15-17, 2011, in Booth 3601, where they will showcase the latest innovative products from both organizations. Magenta Research and TV One principals will also be available for interviews at the show.


For additional TV One information, contact Maria Silva, +44 1843 873315, [email protected] 

Continental Approach, Westwood Industrial Estate, Margate, Kent CT9 4JG, United Kingdom


Click here to download the press release in MSWord...



###



About the Companies


TV One Broadcast Sales Corporation specializes in video, audio and multimedia processing equipment, based on its proprietary CORIO video conversion technology. Located in Erlanger, KY with offices across the globe, TV One manufactures a complete line-up of products for the professional and broadcast video market.TV One has operations in Europe, USA, Taiwan, China and Latin America.


Magenta Research LTD serves the pro-AV and digital signage markets, Magenta Research is the industry recognized leader in the transmission, switching and flexible distribution of multi-format video, audio and auxiliary signals over fiber and Cat-X cabling. Its product range includes AV extenders, distribution amplifiers and matrix switchers for DVI, HDMI, VGA, and component, composite, S-Video, audio, USB, and RS-232 and IR signals. Magenta?s world renowned products are benchmarks in field reliability for 24/7 and mission critical environments. For additional Magenta Research information, contact Pete Gallagher, 860-210-0546, [email protected] .


Nortek, Inc., headquartered in Providence, RI, is a leading diversified global manufacturer of innovative, branded residential and commercial ventilation, HVAC and technology products. Nortek offers a broad array of products, including technology offerings, in audio, video, access control, security and digital display mounting and mobility products.


----------



## cinema mad

Thanks Donald..


I think the InfoComm Show is next month So it will be interesting to see what new Blend units TV-ONE have install, hopefully there still at the same pricepoint..


Cant wait,

Jase..


----------



## nashou66

Here are some pics of Bob's NEC Blend screen shots along with some pics of his set up. He's still learning how to host pics etc so I said I'd do it for him.




I bet Curt will like some of this stuff ;-)
















































I like how Bob built the tweeters into the wall same with the drivers. maybe he'll comment on what he did.

Pretty cool I think!!!










Custom built 4 inch square steel tubing!!!










































































Its his first time with screen shots but really good I think!!!


Great work Bob !!!!


Athanasios


----------



## cinema mad

Truly impressive setup Bob,

I noticed your little friend on the seat also enjoys your theatre







..


Jase..


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I noticed your little friend on the seat also enjoys your theatre



Thanks for the comment!

Hey - I didn't even know she was there until you brought it to my attention!!


Bob


----------



## mp20748

The Blending (blend zone) looks really good. Looks like only the colors could use more matching, and once that's done you'll have a perfect bland (not perfect as in perfection, but perfect in what is considered a well blended image).


Looks really Good..


----------



## Boilermaker

Thanks - The main issue with color imbalance is the non-symmetry caused by the normal setp of R-G-B-R-G-B. If I had taken the extra time to swap the R & B in one of the projectors to end up with R-G-B-B-G-R, it would solve that issue.


When you setup and calibrate a single projector, you never really notice much difference between one side and the other, but it is much more noticeable when you are calibrating a blend. There are two "side to side" color balance controls on XG's that I haven't played with yet, but they are probably not as effective as the zone controls available with the Marquee's, but I'm only guessing.


I really don't want to pull one projector down to swap the tubes, but if I ever get the time, I might try to do it with it still hanging. Might need a third hand to do that, but I think it is doable.


Bob


----------



## mp20748

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* 
Thanks - The main issue with color imbalance is the non-symmetry caused by the normal setp of R-G-B-R-G-B. If I had taken the extra time to swap the R & B in one of the projectors to end up with R-G-B-B-G-R, it would solve that issue
Actually, the placement of the tubes has nothing to do with color uniformity on a blend setup. Absolutely nothing.


It's really all about the method used to make it happen.


Quote:

When you setup and calibrate a single projector, you never really notice much difference between one side and the other, but it is much more noticeable when you are calibrating a blend. There are two "side to side" color balance controls on XG's that I haven't played with yet, but they are probably not as effective as the zone controls available with the Marquee's, but I'm only guessing
I'm not following this, but if you somehow see this is being what it is, I'll just jot it down in my head as being something different about the technology. But based on all the blends and multi-screen displays that I setup, repair and calibrate for a living, the only thing we've ever seen to make a difference with either Digital or CRT technology, is for digital the lamp and CRT the condition of a tube, in that one of the matching (rr,gg,bb) tubes would have more of less wear than the other.


if using the proper calibration method, you can actually match two projectors that are of different models. That is if the tubes are in the same condition, because the condition of the tubes is the only real issue for blending. So two of any brand or model of CRT or digital projectors can be PERFECTLY colr calibrated in a blend setup, IF they have both top and bottom (drive/G2) color adjustments.



Quote:

I really don't want to pull one projector down to swap the tubes, but if I ever get the time, I might try to do it with it still hanging. Might need a third hand to do that, but I think it is doable.


Bob
Changing the tubes will not make any changes in the image at all. That's something I've already tried, but it was before I knew better.


----------



## Boilermaker

Quote:

Actually, the placement of the tubes has nothing to do with color uniformity on a blend setup. Absolutely nothing.
Mike - Are you changing the laws of physics again?


Customary procedure for performing grayscale, gamma, and cms calibration is to use window patterns and the light sensor senses light from the center of the screen.


If you were to move the sensor towards either side of the screen, your color temperature readings would obviously be different from the center readings. There are three reasons for this:


1 - a different portion of the tube face is producing the light.

2 - the distance between the lens and the screen is larger on the sides than in the middle.

3 - the angle from the tube to the screen is different.


If you agree with the obvious physics of the three above, then you should also agree that whatever differences exist, the will be very much reduced by having the screen see symmetry relative to the identical tubes in each projector at the center of the blend zone.


As it is now, at the center of the blend zone, only the green is perfectly symmetrical with the same angle and distance for both projectors. The blue tube on the left projector is the closest to the center and has the shortest distance, while on the right projector it has the greatest angle and the greatest distance. Vice versa for the red.


If I swap red and blue positions on one projector, then the distances and angles are identical with all three tubes.



Bob


----------



## mp20748

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* 
Mike - Are you changing the laws of physics again?


Bob
Nope, just presenting a case against the theory of video presentation and blending again.


And doing so from years of actual first hand experience. In fact, I've never seen a top end commercial CRT blend setup that I had to swap the CRT's, nor had I found a reason to do so. And in these setups, the matching color requirement is almost always it has to be perfect. The blend zone is never sold as being something that can be made perfect, but the color matching can always be made perfect if the tubes are up to it. And it makes no difference where the tubes are located in line with each other. It's totally irrelevant... and again, I say this from experience..


----------



## crtfoamer

Thats impressive what set of xgs are hanging


----------



## Boilermaker

XG1101LC's with new tubes.


Bob


----------



## olakjen

hello a wil try to setup 2 g70 in a blend were shoud i bye the tvone unit


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> hello a wil try to setup 2 g70 in a blend were shoud i bye the tvone unit



I don't know where you are, but would suggest you look at the TvOne's website to find the closest dealer. They have many models available that have blend capability.


Bob


----------



## olakjen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boilermaker* /forum/post/21005629
> 
> 
> I don't know where you are, but would suggest you look at the TvOne's website to find the closest dealer. They have many models available that have blend capability.
> 
> 
> Bob



ok who of the units do you sugest?

is the 1T-C2-760 good?


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *olakjen* /forum/post/21013375
> 
> 
> ok who of the units do you sugest?
> 
> is the 1T-C2-760 good?



no, the PC based card is not digital input compatible.


The C2-2450A is the best unit for someone who just wants to blend with DVI/HDMI how ever i found them to have HDCP issues so you would also need

a MOOME MUX-HD as well, i use the MUX as the splitter . So you would go:


BD>MUX-HD>Two C2-2450A's>Two G70's with Moome HDMI Card's


I am still looking for the Price sheet.


I would also suggest another radiance so you can do Greyscale and CMS for each G70. I have two radiance's before the TV-One units.


Athanasios


----------



## olakjen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/21013445
> 
> 
> no, the PC based card is not digital input compatible.
> 
> 
> The C2-2450A is the best unit for someone who just wants to blend with DVI/HDMI how ever i found them to have HDCP issues so you would also need
> 
> a MOOME MUX-HD as well, i use the MUX as the splitter . So you would go:
> 
> 
> BD>MUX-HD>Two C2-2450A's>Two G70's with Moome HDMI Card's
> 
> 
> I am still looking for the Price sheet.
> 
> 
> I would also suggest another radiance so you can do Greyscale and CMS for each G70. I have two radiance's before the TV-One units.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



ok but the 1T-C2-760 is not a pc card, its a box just whitout a screen
http://www.tvone.co.uk/1t-c2-760-main.shtml


----------



## Boilermaker




> Quote:
> I would also suggest another radiance so you can do Greyscale and CMS for each G70.



There are a few more options on this, so you might want to price them first:


1 - 2 DVDO Duo's. Can only do 11 point grayscale whereas the Lumagen's can do 21 point I think.


2 - 2 VideoEq's which can do 21 point.


3 - 2 VideoEq Pro's which can actually do 1024 points (overkill).



Bob


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *olakjen* /forum/post/21014864
> 
> 
> ok but the 1T-C2-760 is not a pc card, its a box just whitout a screen
> http://www.tvone.co.uk/1t-c2-760-main.shtml



you could use that but then you'd have to use the Corio Program to set all parameters and save them. its much easier doing it via the screen on the Unit.


But it would be less money which would free up cash for another radiance or if you sold the radiance get the Video eq's. But you definitely to have CMS control for each display .


Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Decided to bring this old thread back up with some screen shots, now on a 13 foot wide scope screen.



Angels and Demons

 

 











Nashou!!!!!!!!


----------



## cinema mad

Looking Good Nashou,

How much increase in fl are you getting now the new 9" guns are installed ?


BTW did TVone ever fix the 4.2.2 pass through ?


Cheers..


----------



## nashou66

No Increase since I increased the screen size from about 11.5 feet to 13 feet or about 4 meters wide now!!! It actually went down a couple fl.


No they never added it its all 444, I use RGB from Oppo to Moome.


Nashou


----------



## nashou66

A little clip i did with my iPhone to show those who do not know exactly how Blending works.





nashou


----------



## Oliver Klohs

Very good demonstration, the blend zone is really small in your setup!


----------



## nashou66

It is made for about 208 pixels but I find going to 225 hides the zone better. On the 13 foot screen it is about 16-18 inches wide. So yes it is small, my zoom I think is set at 177 after using the 1:1 pixel mapping in the source menu. I'll have to double check when I get home. The zoom is what determines how large the blend zone will be, but when using 1:1 you have to make adjustments and some menu's get hidden so adjustments will not ruin the mapping.


I find the image is more precise allowing the 1:1 and then just going with what it throws out at you










There may be other ways to do it but my physical location is set in stone for now I am not moving those damn things for a long long time !


Nashou


----------



## Oliver Klohs

When I experimented with blending I also preferred the smaller blend zones as it gave me better results in both sharpness and phosphor usage for scope screens.


----------



## pk442

So with two G90s in an edge blending setup, what would be the optimal resolution? Primary use would be with blueray, but also some satellite HDTV.

I understand that 2.35 images are only using 1920x800 (or817-whatever the 2.35 image works out to). Where as 16x9 images use the full 1920x1080. Can I still get full 1080 on a 16x9 blueray, or will they all be at 800 ? Do I still need a separate scaler and the Moombe Mux unit? Sorry to ask such stupid questions, but the info is so fractured over 5 years or so, I was just wondering what the current theories were. I currently have one G-90, but there seem to some available for darn little, and I'd love to up my screen from its current 123" size. So I'm just trying to figure out the difficulty/complexity of getting something like this setup, and of course what all it will really cost $$. Thanks for any advice yo may have - PK


----------



## nashou66

The 13 foot blend !!!!!!!












This film is definitely film, lots of grain !!!


 

 

 

 

*Lets See A Digital Do This !!!!!!


Back In Black !!!!*

 



And she's not even calibrated correctly












Nashou!!!


----------



## nashou66




----------



## fearn48

nashou66 said:


> Quote:Originally Posted by *olakjen*
> 
> 
> The C2-2450A is the best unit for someone who just wants to blend with DVI/HDMI how ever i found them to have HDCP issues so you would also need
> a MOOME MUX-HD as well, i use the MUX as the splitter . So you would go:
> 
> BD>MUX-HD>Two C2-2450A's>Two G70's with Moome HDMI Card's
> 
> I am still looking for the Price sheet.
> 
> I would also suggest another radiance so you can do Greyscale and CMS for each G70. I have two radiance's before the TV-One units.
> 
> Athanasios


Hi Nash,
I'm thinking about blending two barco projectors to get around a throw issue I have with using a single projector (can't get the projector back far enough for a picture bigger than 140cm). My options are either a first surface mirror to add throw or blend. I have a couple of questions about blending I was wondering if you could help me with.

1. My picture size with a blend would be about 2 meters wide. Is this too small for a blend with two 9" projectors (Cine Max and Reality 909/919).

2. Why did you put the lumagen units before the TV One units? I'd have thought after would have been better for upping the refresh rate.

3. Do the 2450A units Handel 3D now? You mentioned there was an option in the menus.

4. It's the MUX-HD still needed, have TV One fixed the HDCP issue.

5. Do the new TV One units with hdmi in/out do blending. They don't seem to have it in the description.

Thanks
Peter


----------



## dzseki

2m wide screen is way too small for blending! Not to mention all the cost and effort involved for such a small screen, a decent 8" machine light that up easily!
So if you are sticking to the CRT the 1st reflection mirror is your only solution with that room.


----------



## fearn48

dzseki said:


> 2m wide screen is way too small for blending! Not to mention all the cost and effort involved for such a small screen, a decent 8" machine light that up easily!
> So if you are sticking to the CRT the 1st reflection mirror is your only solution with that room.


Many thanks. I really appreciate the advice. I think your right. I'll be going down the mirror route.
Thanks
Peter


----------

