# The Ever-Changing HT



## hifisponge

*Wilson Benesch Trinity, Centre and ARCs + JL F112 Home Theater*














































































































I came almost full circle with these speakers, re-buying Wilson Benesch after going through Canton, B&W, Dynaudio, and Audio Physic speakers before I decided that I would keep my modestly priced electronics (relatively speaking) and go back to WB. Except, instead of going with the WB Discovery speakers again, I decided to take a gamble on the Trinity. As stand-alone speakers, the Discovery is a more well-rounded speaker than the Trinity because they are closer to full-range speakers, but with my JL sub mated to the Trinity, things become closer to equal. With my system judged on the whole, with the sub, I'm as happy as I've ever been with the final result. And that end result is a unstrained, full range, expansive sound with a natural sounding and detailed midrange, delicate highs and deep, taught bass. One thing that I really appreciate about the WBs is that their drivers are very well behaved and free of any sort of audible resonances or edgy, aggressive distortion I've heard in too many high-end speakers. It makes for an always listenable sound, while still providing the sense of realism and detail you expect from audiophile gear.

*My rack currently consists of:*
Denon AVR-5308
Denon BDP-2010 BluRay Player
Mac Mini "Music Server" running iTunes and all music files ripped in Apple Lossless format on a 2TB Lacie HD (and another 2TB HD for back-up)
Motorola FiOS HDTV box

*Some background....*

When I started this thread, it was after a year-long search for a set of speakers that I felt were a clear step-up from the Paradigm Signatures I used to own. It turned out to be a major pain in the "arse", but exciting at the same time. The thread has since morphed into an (ongoing) account of my attempt to assemble a world-class system, while also attempting to cut through all of the hype.


I'm an avid audiophile, that's a given, but I have always been very skeptical of many of the claims made about high-end gear, especially tweaks. Until about 5 years ago, I fell squarely into the objective / measurement / hard-science audiophile camp. You know the type, if you can't measure it, then it didn't happen.










Through a lot of reading and hands-on experience from early 2000 to present, I felt I had gained a strong grasp of what was needed technically for a audio component to sound good. Based on what I knew or thought I knew, it also seemed that most of what was being peddled by the high-end just didn't make sense. But one can't really argue the one side if they have never experienced the other, so with an open mind, I set out to find out for myself if there really was something to all of the seemingly outlandish claims being made by professional reviewers and the "subjectivists" in the hobby. This amp changed my life, that cable made the sound more liquid, this CD player sounds much more musical, etc., etc. , etc.


The search begins.


Starting with a base point of a Denon AVR5800 and Paradigm Signature speakers that I owned in ~2005, I started trying out different high-end processor/ amp combos. First up was the NAD M15 prepro and M25 amp, then the Anthem D2 and matching Anthem Amp, and a few years later the Lexicon MC12HD and the Lexicon LX7 amp. In regards to innate sound quality (sans processing) I heard slight differences between them, but none of the differences were significant enough to result in a strong preference from me. The NAD stuff was a little smoother, the Anthem a bit brighter / more clinical, and the Lexicon being somewhere between. However, the Logic 7 surround processing in the Lexicon was significantly better than the processing in the other two, so I stuck with that for a while.


In my next attempt to take my system to the next level, I borrowed a Linn Unidisk and a Classe Delta series CD player from a local dealer. I ran both players into the Lexicon prepro via coax digital and analog connections. Again the differences were so slight (none at all?) that I felt no compelling reason to buy these to replace the Lexicon RT-20 player I owned at the time, which incidentally is a re-badged Marantz player.


After the CD players, I decided to try out a few different amps. The Lexicon LX-7 amp was my current amp (Lexicon design, Crown made), which I compared to a pair of Bel Canto Ref 1000s, a Parasound Halo A51, and a pair of Classe CAM-400 monoblocks. Four very different designs, and four very different price points. At the time, these amps were all paired to the Lexicon MC12HD prepro and Revel Studio2 speakers. You would think that the $10K a pair Classe monblocks would have stomped all over the other amps. I mean, these are small-refrigerator sized, 400-watt amps that run in pure Class A mode for the first 100 watts! An audiophile wet dream if there ever was one. Even though I'm skeptical of high end gear like this, there is a part of me that really wanted them to sound clearly better than any other amp I'd ever heard. But, sigh ... they didn't. I honestly had a very hard time telling these four very different amp designs apart based on their sonics. Were four amps identical? No. Were they within 15% of each other? To me, yes.


Not being completely satisfied with the sound quality of the Lexicon / Revel combo; on the recommendation of a friend, I bought the Classe SSP-800 and CA-5100 amp to try out. I did find the sound of the Classe stack to be a bit smoother and more analog while also more resolving than the Lexicon with the Revels, but it still wasn't what I was after. The Revels still sounded too clinical. It wasn't until I switched from Revel's to Wilson Benesch speakers that got my sound system closer to where I wanted it than I ever had before. But the funny thing is, when I auditioned the Wilson Benesch speakers, I was waiting for the Classe gear to arrive and the only thing I had to power the Wilsons was a $400 Harmon Kardon AVR borrowed from my bedroom! The truth is, in stereo, I liked the sound of the WB's + $400 HK AVR better than the Revels with a $19K Lexicon processor and matching amp! Looking back on that really does help cement the importance of speakers vs. electronics for me.


Even though my faith in high-end audio was waning by this time, I still stuck with the Classe front-end because I wanted a system that looked "the part" as much as it sounded "the part". No brainer there, the Classe / Wilson Benesch system looked and sounded fantastic. While I was happy with the sound of this beautiful system, all was not well. The Classe prepro was full of operational bugs, and my particular unit exhibited several hardware problems that required dozens of hours of troubleshooting and months of waiting while it was repaired and later replaced. Combine this with some speaker issues that also took months to get resolved, and I was getting fed up with high-end audio. So much so that I said f**k it, and sold it all off. I didn't need the heartache, and I figured that I could do just as well sound quality wise in the "mid-fi" category.


The trend of hearing only small differences between front-end components didn't change when I auditioned several AVRs and separates in 2010 to replace the Classe, though I was surprised that with the quick switching available at the dealer it was a easier to hear the differences that where there. Between the Denon AVR5308, Arcam AVR600, Primare separates, Naim, Classe, Plinius, Audionet, Amarra and Marantz AV8003, the only two that really stood out of the pack were the Primare (not favorably) and the Marantz (favorably), but again this is in relative terms. There was no quantum shift in sound quality between these pieces to my ears. That's not to say that I would just randomly choose one, as every little bit helps, BUT based on my preference for the affordable Marantz, "moving up the ladder" and spending more money is no guarantee of subjectively better sound.


I know that this all probably sounds like just another all-amps-sound-the-same, whistle-blower, but I would be the first in line to drop $10K on a new processor, amps or whatever, if the sound quality was CLEARLY better than mass produced AVR. Not just some incremental, subjectively questionable difference.


As for what I consider more tweaky solutions, I've tried an assortment of power cables, ICs and power conditioners, including XLO, Kimber, Van Den Hul, AudioQuest, PS Audio, Element Cable, Wire World. If there were differences between these things, they were lost on me. The only one that made even a slight difference (I think) was the PS Audio Power Plant and I believe that is because it is not just a passive device. It converts the AC to DC and back to AC again. In my experience, it made low level details easier to hear like being able to see fine shadow detail in a video display, but don't hold me to this. Further investigation is probably needed.


Based on this collection of experiences, my focus remains on speakers, recording quality, proper calibration / set-up, the room, EQ, build quality and style (the components must be well made and look good







). The rest is gravy to me.


With all of that said, this thread is simply a collection of my experiences, and for all you know I may have tin ears or I may be completely insane, so make of it what you will. I'm not selling anything, and if your experiences are different, that just makes for interesting conversation.










In the posts that follow, is a short account of the various speakers I've owned, the rather unconventional acoustic room treatment I had installed, and the some of the electronics that have passed through my home.


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## hifisponge

*Wilson Benesch Discovery*









The Wilson-Benesch "Discovery" speaker is an unusual design that essentially takes the performance of a small floorstanding speaker and compacts it into a standmount design. WB affectionately refers to the Discovery as a "micro-floorstander". They actually managed to fit three 7” drivers into the space of a larger standmount speaker.


In 2008 I spent a year searching for a set of speakers to replace the Paradigm Signatures I owned at the time. I finally settled on speakers from a little known maker out of the UK by the name of Wilson-Benesch. Their specialty is the use of carbon fiber cabinets combined with custom in-house drivers and various bits of extruded / CNC machined aluminum. I chose the "Discovery" standmount speakers for the L/R, the "Centre" speaker for you guessed it the center speaker, a pair of "ARC" speakers for the surround channels, and a single JL F112 subwoofer. The first thing that really sucked me into the WB sound, was the massive soundstage they throw. In my room, it extends out beyond the left and right speaker by a couple of feet and while listening to some of my favorite tracks, I could literally “see” instruments playing two feet to the left of the left speaker. Good stuff.





















The Revelator tweeter has always been one of my favorite soft domes (that and the Dynaudio Esostar2) because of its “delicacy” and ability to convey the trailing edges and finer details of things like cymbals, chimes, and strings, without ever sounding etched, grainy or dry. I owned the Discoverys from November 2008 to February 2010.


*Audio Physic Virgo 25*









The Virgo's, which I owned just after the Dynaudio's, exhibited some of the quickest and tightest bass I've had in my room. They were more lively, more dynamic and more expansive than the Dyns, but in the end, the side firing woofers did not want to play nice with my admittedly cramped placement options. I knew this was a risk going in, but I though I would just have a peak to pull down with EQ. What I discovered was that despite the right-wall acoustic treatment, there was a good amount of destructive interference from the near-wall speaker placement on the right side, much more so than with the monitor speakers I've had in this same location. The most evident problem is a deep and wide suck-out in the lower midrange. I even moved the right speaker into the left speaker position and measured just to make sure that the right speaker was functioning properly, and once in that position the lower mid dip goes away and it measures identically to the left speaker. While I've had good success in using EQ to address speaker / room interaction problems, the starting point was just too far off the mark. It's no fault of the speaker, but it explains the lean midrange character and it is a good reminder of just how important proper placement is, especially with a multi-driver tower speaker. Luckily, the person that bought them from me was local and we set them up in his open floor plan to audition before purchase. They sounded phenomenal. The presentation was relaxed, good top to bottom coherence and excellent detail. There was a slight lack of mid-bass, but this is something that can often be corrected with a fine tuning of the speaker positions.


*Dynaudio C1*









Until I owned the Dynaudio C1's, I thought speaker break-in was mostly in the mind, and most of the time I still think it is, but I went through a real rough spell with these guys. In the beginning the tweeter sounded a bit coarse / edgy, coupled with a midrange that sounded "shouty" and lean. Let's just say that the resulting sound was not always pleasant. However, after about 300 hours they completely shed their somewhat offensive character. And if you want to hear a monitor with a 7" that can do very close to full range, you need to listen to a set of these. I had 5 AVS members in my home to listen to the C1's, and they were very complimentary of how good my JL F112 subwoofer sounded. The only problem was, the subwoofer was not even plugged in. No exaggeration. Unfortunately, and I still can't put my finger on it, but after break in, while they left with me nothing to complain about, I found myself indifferent about their sound. Not great, not horrible, just sort of "there". Looking back at it though, I think I had reached my saturation point and was burnt out on all of the analyzing, which affected my ability to enjoy any form of listening. I wish I could hear these again, but alas I can only afford to go through all of this gear by selling off what doesn't appear to be working.


*B&W 805Di*










The the bass is tight, punchy, well-timed, tuneful and just much better than a speaker this size has any right to have. The diamond tweeter has simply amazing resolution and transient response. Clearly better than the Be tweets in the Focals and the Revels that I've owned. Both of those lacked the sparkle I was after when I bought them. The strike and the decay of things like cymbals, chimes, and bells are more clearly delineated than I've heard before, even when there are other sounds or instruments layered on top. From the midrange on up, every element of sound is cleanly separate from the others. The Monitor Audio Platinums had similar resolving power, but their soundstage was compressed and I didn't like the tonal quality of that speaker in the midrange.


I've never placed a lot of value on pinpoint imaging. I guess because I've never really had it that good in my room, and I'm more concerned with tonality and the size of the soundstage. While listening to one of my reference tracks thrugh the 805Di's, a Dianna Krall song that I listen to for vocal quality, I realized for the first time that she was sitting at the piano to sing, slightly off center to the left and facing to the right. I swear that I could hear her shift from singing directly into the mic in front of her to shifting to face the audience. In other words I could hear her sing diagonally out into the room. That was a first. Up til now, her vocals were just a phantom center image.


All wasn't perfect though. My last system, the Wilson Benesch / Classe rig, had a smoothness / naturalness that sounded closer to "real" than anything else I've owned. The B&W 805Di / Denon combo is a more vivid and but also more synthetic sounding presentation. The vivid part I liked, the synthetic part, not so much. It's not offensive, but there is that somewhat etched, sharp quality to the sound. And as I spent more time with the B&W's, I found that the highs and the mids tended to sound too different in character from one another. The character of the treble being a bit sharper / more detailed than the mids. In the end, I found the etched quality and the slight lack of cohesiveness between the drivers enough of a distraction that I decided to keep trying other options.

*Revel Studio2s*









A great speaker in all respects, but frankly, this was the end of my big-ass speaker kick. I thought I needed big speakers to get a big sound, but as I later found out, I got the expansive sound I was after in the stand-mount Wilson Benesch speakers. My wife also thanks me for finding smaller speakers.







The Wilson's not only sound big for their size, but they project a bigger sound than any of the large floorstanders that preceded them. The moral of this story is: bigger is not always better. I've found that a good sub / bookshelf system can actually outperform larger speaker in many cases. I also found that the Revels, while dead accurate, sounded too clinical for me. They reproduced everything on the recording, but there was no "suspension of disbelief", no "performer in the room".

*Dynaudio Sapphires*









Another great speaker, and surprisingly, I preferred the soft dome tweet in this speaker to the high-tech Beryllium tweeter in the Revels. The one thing that I find common about the Dyn sound is that are all pleasingly neutral for the most part, but the sound stage is a bit more confined to the space between the speakers. It will project out more on really spacious recordings, but not as much as the best speakers in this area (like the Wilson Benesch). I probably would have chosen these over the Revel Studio2's, but the Dyns didn't pass WAF and there is no matching center or surrounds, so they were a no go.

*Monitor Audio Platinum 300's*









I'm tech-head, and I was sucked into all of the tech in these speakers. The C-CAM ribbon tweeter, and those hi-tech honeycomb ceramic/aluminum sandwich cone woofers, the platinum coated WBT speaker posts, and other assorted aerospace materials. Man they just seemed so damn cool. I listened to them for several hours at the local hi-fi shop before taking the plunge and was really impressed. The ribbon tweeter on these speaks is amazing. You could hear the finest details, but they didn't sound hot in the treble in the slightest. Unfortunately, once I lived with them for a while I found them a bit aggressive in the mids; they were a bit too stout in appearance; and the imaging seemed to make all of the instruments smaller than most speakers I've owned. Since they sounded fine in this regard at the dealer, I can only conclude that they need a fairly good spread between them to open up.

*Focal Electra 1037 Be*









I heard some Focal Utopia Be speakers a few years back and loved them, so when I had the funds the Focal Electra's were the first on my list. I had to travel two hours to the only shop in my state that had them on display to listen to them. I didn't pay much attention to this at the time, but they had them connected to a tube amp during the audition, which is why I believe they sounded more to my liking than when I got them home. Unfortunately, in my system there was an etched, overly hot quality to the low treble. Voices, horns and strings sounded strident. I waited months for these speakers to "break-in", but ultimately their character didn't change much if at all. In the end, I was quite deflated when I realized that I should probably go with something that was a better personality fit. Still the one of the best looking speakers out there, IMO.

*Monitor Audio GS*









I actually liked these speakers a lot. I probably would have stuck with these for a while, but I a got a big bonus from work shortly after I bought them, and wanted to find my "dream speakers". They had transparency close to an electrostatic speaker, with the dynamics of a dome and cone speaker. They could be a little sibilant, but I wouldn't kick them out of bed for eating crackers.









*Paradigm Signature*









Great all around speakers with no glaring faults, but I had owned them for a few years and I wanted to see if I could get something better. Little did I know how much of a challenge that would turn out to be. I liked the change in perspective that in the Monitor Audio GS's offered, though that came a slight cost in neutrality. The Paradigms were the end of my first journey down the speaker upgrade path. I would recommend these to anyone looking for a great dual purpose HT / music speaker.

*KEF Reference (V1)*









I bought these based on stellar reviews and impressive FR graphs, and because of their cutting-edge tech at the time. The Uni-Q driver arrangement is a great idea, especially for HT, and it does deliver on the promise of excellent dispersion. You can sit well off to the side of the speaker and the character of the sound doesn't change at all. They also featured a super tweeter, and since this was right around the time that DVDA and SACD were being introduced, I wanted to get all that these formats had to offer. After living with them for a few weeks, I found that voices sounded nasal and thin. This was the start of my realization that perfect measurements do not necessarily equal perfect sound.

*Martin Logan Aeon-i*









You won't find a more transparent speaker than an ESL. This particular model was about in the middle of the size range available at the time. I later found out that you really need to get into the bigger panels to get decent dynamic capability. Feed these a minimalist vocal or small jazz trio recording and it sounds like they are in the room with you. But feed a smaller ESL panel like these some rock, and things get a little messy. The very thin ESL membrane used for the mids and highs just doesn't have the excursion needed for rocking out. And while they are great for 2CH "in the sweet spot" listening, they are really too directional for multiple listeners in an HT setting. If you are looking for a great jazz / vocalist speaker, and you are setting up a 2Ch system, you can't do much better.


I actually had a few other speakers prior to the Paradigms, but I don't have any pics. A couple that come to mind are Vienna Acoustics and Aerial Acoustics. I loved the Viennas, but the center speaker that went with them at the time was not up to snuff. My wife was constantly complaining that she could make out what people were saying while watching TV and movies. I think the current Vienna's are much better though. The Aerials sounded more reserved and even "dark" than I expected. Just not what I was after.


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## hifisponge

While searching for the right set of speakers, and coming up short on several occasions, I wanted to make sure that the room wasn't the problem, so I decided to do what we all know that we need to, and that was to acoustically treat the room. The hurdle for me and many others I gather, is that I didn't want to turn my living room into something that looks like a recording studio. I didn't know how to go about this, so I hired a professional to come out and offer up some options. Glad that I did because I never would have thought of placing the majority of the treatment on the ceiling! Enter the "acoustic cloud"......





























































































You can read the full details of this project here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1047573


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## hifisponge

In the last post, you can see that off the left side of the room, I have all of my front-end electronics in an enclosed cabinet. The cabinet is actually a built-in that I converted to hold my AV gear. At first this didn't work out so well because the furnace was right behind this cabinet, so there was no rear access and I had to use a mirror and a flashlight to make all of the equipment connections. There was also no ventilation within the cabinet, so it could get rather hot in there.


About two years ago, I had the furnace moved, cut out the back of the cabinet and installed a door to get access to the rear of the components. This sure made things a hell of lot easier to hook up and move around.


Then, around the same time that I bought the WB speakers, I purchased the Classe SSP-800 prepro and matching Classe CA-5100 5 channel amp. The amp runs in Class A mode for the first 30 watts, so it can get quite warm (even out in the open), and the prepro has several high-speed processors buzzing along inside which also generates a good amount of heat, so it was time to install a more serious cooling system.


My rack consists of:

Classe SSP-800 prepro

Classe CA-5100 5 x 100 watt amp

Mac Mini "Music Server" running iTunes and all music files ripped in Apple Lossless format

Sony BDP-S550 Blu Ray Player

PS Audio "AC Regenerator"

Motorola FiOS HDTV box





























Prior deciding to go with the Mac Mini music server, I had a reference Classe CD player. But after comparing Mac to the dedicated player for hours (a CD in the Classe and ALAC files of the same CD in the Mac), I felt that there was no clear improvement in the sound provided by the Classe player, so I ditched it. The Mac Mini has to be the best $800 I've spent. I probably listened to 10% of my CD collection when I had to load each one into a single disc player, now I can listen to all of it with just the touch of button. It's awesome!


Here's some shots of the cooling system I installed.


The blower










Above the cabinet before the install










Duct added to connect to blower in the attic










The cooling system is temperature controlled, so the blower only comes on at low speed when the temp reaches a certain point, and it kicks up to a higher speed if I really push the system hard during an action flick. With the door shut, the fan is inaudible.


The shot below shows you how truly anal I am about having everything just right.







Most of the cabling was made by me to precise custom lengths so that there is no slop.











Oh and one last pic of my TV mount. Because I know that having a TV between your speakers ruins the imaging of the speakers, I installed this articulating mount so that I can push the TV against the wall when listening solely to music. And from the front, it loooks like the TV is floating above the console below, which is pretty cool.


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## hifisponge

I'm in the video game biz, so it only seemed appropriate to have a room dedicated to staying up on my company's product and to perform "competitive market analysis".







I managed to squeeze a 5.1 system into a 10 x 10 foot spare bedroom, and you know what? It sounds amazing! Having each speaker under five feet away from you really creates an immersive surround sound field. It was tough finding small speakers that met my expectations though. I was originally going to go with a cheap HTIB solution, but they all sounded shrill. However, the moment I heard the Monitor Audio Radius speakers, I knew that I couldn't settle for less. These are just fantastic little speakers.


One last thing. What they say about square rooms is true. They wreak havoc on sound quality. When I first set-up the sub in this room, there was a huge peak in the upper bass that made the sound very woofy and boomy. The only way to get the sound in check was to add a Velodyne SMS-1 EQ to the system. I ended up having to put a -12 dB filter at 70Hz to even things out.


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## ddgtr

Tim,


I was lucky to get a preview of your A/V cabinet when you posted pics with all your Classe gear in Nuance's amps and preamps thread! If I may suggest it, can you show here some of the close-ups you posted in the other thread?


First, that cabinet looks like something out of Star Trek! Classe gear sure looks good!!


Glad to hear the Wilsons are there to stay! They are truly beautiful speakers, and although I haven't had a chance to give them a listen I hear really good things about them.

Question: do you use your sub for 2 channel listening?


Congratulations, you have a great setup!!


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## hifisponge

Hey ddg -


Good to "see" you.










I was in the middle of adding the pics of the Classe front end while you wrote your post. The pics are now up in post #2. I have wanted to own a Classe Delta series component since they were first released, and I'm just glad that I could finally make it happen. They are some of the most stylish components I've seen. Very minimalist modern, which I'm a big fan of. Of course that would mean nothing if they didn't sound great too. The SSP-800 is simply an amazing sounding prepro.


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## plasmattack

Nice! I love the cabinet enclosure. Really tidy's things up. Those speakers are gorgeous not to mention the Panny. The Sound Art and Cinema Tresures books are a nice touch also!


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## Kai Winters

Wow !

Thanks for sharing.


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## premiertrussman

Classy and clean! Thanks for the post.


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## Fanaticalism

I am not impressed.


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## techlvr33

You had Revel speakers and thought they weren't good enough!!!!!


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## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *plasmattack* /forum/post/16277510
> 
> 
> Nice! I love the cabinet enclosure. Really tidy's things up. Those speakers are gorgeous not to mention the Panny. The Sound Art and Cinema Tresures books are a nice touch also!



Good, eye on the coffee table books.







They seemed appropriate since I wanted gear that was as pretty to look at as to listen to, hence the Sound Art book.










Like your set-up too. I wish I could be a bit closer to my TV, like your set-up.


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## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fanaticalism* /forum/post/16279464
> 
> 
> I am not impressed.


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## plasmattack




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16280056
> 
> 
> Good, eye on the coffee table books.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They seemed appropriate since I wanted gear that was as pretty to look at as to listen to, hence the Sound Art book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like your set-up too. I wish I could be a bit closer to my TV, like your set-up.



I like that idea a lot. I am going to follow suit (hope you don't mind) with similar reading material to add to the ambiance of the place







. You chose the right gear for both because it is amazing looking and I'm sure the sound is right on par with the eye candy.


I do like how close I am to the Panny. I would sit on the tv stand if I could







. I absolutely love your clean shelving with rear access. That is just plain awesome. I've been debating on displaying my stuff or hiding it and you've got the right touch of both. Did you say you built those shelves or just modded them?


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## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *plasmattack* /forum/post/16280290
> 
> 
> I like that idea a lot. I am going to follow suit (hope you don't mind) with similar reading material to add to the ambiance of the place
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Glad to offer some inspiration.




> Quote:
> You chose the right gear for both because it is amazing looking and I'm sure the sound is right on par with the eye candy.



Yeah, this system was as much about owning some audiophile jewelry as it was about the quest for great sound. Prior to this, my front end was always Denon AVRs, which were great, but the Classe stuff is industrial art.











> Quote:
> I do like how close I am to the Panny. I would sit on the tv stand if I could
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



LOL. The screen can never be too big now can it. I have a similar set-up in my video game room. I sit just 5 feet from a 46" LCD. And the little Monitor Audio speakers I have in there are simply amazing.




> Quote:
> I absolutely love your clean shelving with rear access. That is just plain awesome. I've been debating on displaying my stuff or hiding it and you've got the right touch of both. Did you say you built those shelves or just modded them?



I just modded them and added the textured glass. The one thing that still sucks though, is that the opening on the face of the cabinet is just under 17". Because all components are usually 17.25 - 17.50", I can't just slip them in. I have to disconnect everything and put them in through the back. Oh well, good thing I don't change front end components all that often.


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## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *techlvr33* /forum/post/16279849
> 
> 
> You had Revel speakers and thought they weren't good enough!!!!!



Hard to believe, I know.










The Revels were very close to the sound I was after, but not quite. I also realized that large floor standing speakers just look too big in my room and I wanted to go back to stand mount speakers.


The funny thing is, I thought I needed big speakers to get a big sound, but as it turns out, the smaller Wilson Benesch speakers actually have a larger soundstage than the Revels and I can play the WB's louder than I could the Revels. There seems to be virtually no limit to how much power they can take. The higher I push the volume, the better they sound.


But then the WB Discovery's are more like a small tower speaker than a trypical stand mount speaker, since they managed to cram a tweeter, a midrange, and TWO bass drivers into the small enclosure (one of the bass drivers is on the inside of the cabinet hidden away.)


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## plasmattack




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16280625
> 
> 
> I just modded them and added the textured glass. The one thing that still sucks though, is that the opening on the face of the cabinet is just under 17". Because all components are usually 17.25 - 17.50", I can't just slip them in. I have to disconnect everything and put them in through the back. Oh well, good thing I don't change front end components all that often.



I thought about creating a video game room but I don't know if it would pass WAF







. When I get the PJ up later this summer I'm going to try gaming on it, not really sure what to expect there to be honest. I would imagine I will like it. If I ever do a separate gaming room I thought about the Klipsch Quintet III's for some smaller sound. I bet your monitors rock out in that room. That room looks awesome as well.


That is too bad on the shelf sizes but they're worth it either way. The look is real tight and clean. The minimalist in me has been bearing his head lately seeing all of these clean and streamlined systems. If we end up staying in this house a little longer while the economy shapes up maybe I will build in some shelves. Your setup really has my wheels turning







.


----------



## shujin

Wow I am very jealous.


----------



## THE_FORCE

Tim nice to finally see some pics of the whole install. That speaker history is also going some !










I have to say that is some seriously tidy cabling at the back. I wouldn't call it anal.....I'd call it being a perfectionist - and there's nowt wrong with that boss !










V.jealous of your 2 pugs also lol. Can't beat an animal lover mate.










Cheers

Jon.


----------



## DoingOK

Wow...................and I thought I was a perfectionist. Very, very nice and impressive.


----------



## Hedge-Hog

Great stuff! I truly admire your details with the acoustic cloud, wall, etc...btw, does your blower cool the equipment enough? My Classe amp runs super hot even at moderate levels (-25.0dB on the SSP).


Thx for the pix.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Hedge-Hog* /forum/post/16293787
> 
> 
> Great stuff! I truly admire your details with the acoustic cloud, wall, etc...btw, does your blower cool the equipment enough? My Classe amp runs super hot even at moderate levels (-25.0dB on the SSP).
> 
> 
> Thx for the pix.



Yeah, the fan (there are four of them in sequence) actually does keep the amp from getting hot. There is a duct just above the amp that sucks all of the hot air out of the cabinet into the attic.


----------



## Daman S

Wow! That is a really beautifully organized room Tim, i can see that you've put a lot of work getting to where you are now, love it!! All the gear is fantastic as well, all the classe's look yummy together in the rack!


Also looks like you went through lot of speaker iterations, so im sure the current speakers you have must be very good, they surely look very beautiful. Thanks for sharing your setup


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/16301299
> 
> 
> Wow! That is a really beautifully organized room Tim, i can see that you've put a lot of work getting to where you are now, love it!! All the gear is fantastic as well, all the classe's look yummy together in the rack!
> 
> 
> Also looks like you went through lot of speaker iterations, so im sure the current speakers you have must be very good, they surely look very beautiful. Thanks for sharing your setup



Thanks for the kind words.







It has been a labor of love as they say, and yes finding the right set of speakers certainly made for a trying year, but it finally worked out in the end.


----------



## hifisponge

5/5 update: added comments to the acoustic treatment (post #3) and speaker history (post #4) sections above.


----------



## hifisponge

5/6 update: Added comments to game room set-up (post #5).


----------



## cb450r

Wow very nice setup, tastefully done and sexxxy speakers. I dig it


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cb450r* /forum/post/16414293
> 
> 
> Wow very nice setup, tastefully done and sexxxy speakers. I dig it



Thanks for stopping in.










Seems people either love the look of the Wilson Benesch speakers or they just don't get it. The Discovery's are an unusual speaker design, but I think that they are beautiful in a technical / industrial way. They have the same sort of visual appeal to me as an exotic sports car. Probably because of the aggressively curved carbon fiber cabinets, exposed drivers, the dual port tubes, and the extruded aluminum stand. Yeah, that might have something to do with it.










You'd think that they would sound like they look--cold and aggressive. But they are the most musical and natural sounding speakers I've owned.


----------



## cb450r

Couldn't agree more with that! I have not had a chance to hear them in person but have always wanted to. They look like a high end sports car.


----------



## Bigred7078

I love the current setup Tim. It looks fantastic and im sure sounds even better. I love hearing about all the projects and speakers you have taken on over time! Great to see your still enjoying the WB's


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks BigRed. It was frustrating at times, but the end result was worth the effort.


----------



## Mike_WI

Very nice.

I need to learn some cable management tips from you.










Mike


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mike_WI* /forum/post/16520454
> 
> 
> Very nice.
> 
> I need to learn some cable management tips from you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike



Thanks much. I'd be glad to offer up my help with making your own cables if you want to go that route.


----------



## Mike_WI




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16520891
> 
> 
> Thanks much. I'd be glad to offer up my help with making your own cables if you want to go that route.



Thanks.

That would be one step.

My setup is complicated by having a pull-out and rotating Middle Atlantic Rack (see my signature link if interested), so speaker wires (at least) have to have some "give" to them.

I just need to quit adding/changing stuff and then tie everything down so it looks neater.











Mike


----------



## ddgtr

Tim,


I am very interested in learning how to build those cables - yours look awesome! If it's not too much trouble for you, I'd love to learn how!


Thanks!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/16533048
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> I am very interested in learning how to build those cables - yours look awesome! If it's not too much trouble for you, I'd love to learn how!
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Here's everything you'll need. No soldering involved.


Cable: Canare L-4CFB (pick the color of your choice)
http://www.markertek.com/SearchProdu...fb&pagesize=20 


Canare crimp RCA connectors
http://www.markertek.com/SearchProdu...fb&pagesize=20 


Canare TS100E 5-Way Cable Stripping Tool
http://www.markertek.com/SearchProdu...ip&pagesize=20 


Canare TC1 Crimp Tool
http://www.markertek.com/SearchProdu...ol&pagesize=20 


Canare TC1 Crimp Tool die set
http://www.markertek.com/SearchProdu...ol&pagesize=20 


Instructions on attaching connectors to cable (very bottom of page):
http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDis...oductItemID=40 


The tools will set you back a few hundred dollars, but they will last a life-time and with the low cost of the cable and connectors you will still save lots over exotic ICs.











If you want to get fancy, go to www.cableorganizer.com and pick the braided sleaving and shrink tubing of your choice to dress the cables up.


----------



## Mike_WI




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16533368
> 
> 
> Here's everything you'll need. No soldering involved.
> 
> 
> Cable: Canare L-4CFB (pick the color of your choice)
> http://www.markertek.com/SearchProdu...fb&pagesize=20
> 
> 
> Canare crimp RCA connectors
> http://www.markertek.com/SearchProdu...fb&pagesize=20
> 
> 
> Canare TS100E 5-Way Cable Stripping Tool
> http://www.markertek.com/SearchProdu...ip&pagesize=20
> 
> 
> Canare TC1 Crimp Tool
> http://www.markertek.com/SearchProdu...ol&pagesize=20
> 
> 
> Canare TC1 Crimp Tool die set
> http://www.markertek.com/SearchProdu...ol&pagesize=20
> 
> 
> Instructions on attaching connectors to cable (very bottom of page):
> http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDis...oductItemID=40
> 
> 
> The tools will set you back a few hundred dollars, but they will last a life-time and with the low cost of the cable and connectors you will still save lots over exotic ICs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to get fancy, go to www.cableorganizer.com and pick the braided sleaving and shrink tubing of your choice to dress the cables up.



Thanks.


Mike


----------



## Nuance

Great thread, and glad to see you around again, Tim. It's about time your journey was documented in it's own deserving thread, and with great pics to go along no less! Nice!










Your system looks beautiful man, and I love the custom cooling rack job. Saaweet!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nuance* /forum/post/16537575
> 
> 
> Great thread, and glad to see you around again, Tim. It's about time your journey was documented in it's own deserving thread, and with great pics to go along no less! Nice!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your system looks beautiful man, and I love the custom cooling rack job. Saaweet!



Thanks Bradon.










Things have not been the same for me around here since the perfect speaker thread went silent. It had it's ups and downs, but it was something I really enjoyed being a part of.


I hope the Salks are still shinning brightly for ya.


----------



## ddgtr

Tim,


Great info, I totally dig the braided sleeves because it helps the cables from twisting and keeps them organized.


Thanks again,

Dan


----------



## hifisponge

Dan & Mike -


Glad to help. Let me know if you have any questions once you get your hands dirty.


----------



## Nuance




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16537770
> 
> 
> Thanks Bradon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Things have not been the same for me around here since the perfect speaker thread went silent. It had it's ups and downs, but it was something I really enjoyed being a part of.
> 
> 
> I hope the Salks are still shinning brightly for ya.



It's something I enjoyed having you a part of.







We all learned a lot from you, and your adventure was certainly fun to follow. Ah yes...the good 'ol days.










Now we have a new thread to hang out in (this one). Sweet! Oh, and the Salk's are still blowing my mind. Good stuff!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nuance* /forum/post/16545308
> 
> 
> It's something I enjoyed having you a part of.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We all learned a lot from you, and your adventure was certainly fun to follow. Ah yes...the good 'ol days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now we have a new thread to hang out in (this one). Sweet! Oh, and the Salk's are still blowing my mind. Good stuff!



Well you certainly started quite a following. That Salk thread is massive.


----------



## paranormalg35

Impressive!


I really like your rack and CF speakers. I love carbon fiber!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paranormalg35* /forum/post/16724650
> 
> 
> Impressive!
> 
> 
> I really like your rack and CF speakers. I love carbon fiber!



Sorry I missed your post, but thank you! What self-respecting male doesn't love carbon fiber?!







Lighter than wood, stronger than steel, and it's all shimmery and woven. What's not to like?


----------



## kevink109

Tim-


Great thread, very nice set-up.... one quick question-


based on your local, wouldn't the mac-mini be a no-no










Glad I found this-


Cheers

Kevin


----------



## funkmonkey

Hey Tim, just stumbled across your thread today. Very cool to be able to get a nutshell version of your adventures in Audio, all in one place. Great photos and stuff, too.


I'm very glad to hear that the W/B + Classe + Mac-mini system is having some serious staying power for you. That you haven't made any changes in so long really says a lot.


Cheers


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevink109* /forum/post/16762797
> 
> 
> Tim-
> 
> 
> Great thread, very nice set-up.... one quick question-
> 
> 
> based on your local, wouldn't the mac-mini be a no-no
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glad I found this-
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Kevin



Thanks Kevin. If you are referring to the evil MS empire, makes no difference to me since I work for Mario the plumber, if you get my drift.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funkmonkey* /forum/post/16763145
> 
> 
> Hey Tim, just stumbled across your thread today. Very cool to be able to get a nutshell version of your adventures in Audio, all in one place. Great photos and stuff, too.
> 
> 
> I'm very glad to hear that the W/B + Classe + Mac-mini system is having some serious staying power for you. That you haven't made any changes in so long really says a lot.
> 
> 
> Cheers



Hey Greg! Good to hear from ya. Hope your new set-up is still treating you well.


I'll admit that there are still times when my system sounds better than others, but I've been through enough gear to know when it is best to leave well enough alone.


It would be nice to have the means to just switch things out every other year, just for a different perspective, but there is a lot to like about the WB / Classe combo, and thankfully, it doesn't nothing offensive that would get under my skin over time.


----------



## inhertenderlips

hey hifi, the style that your set up has is sweet. do you run a sub in that room? if so which one? and if not, do you plan on adding one? ive never heard W/B speakers but i will admit i'd be be surprised if those speakers really handle the lower frequencies well. classy though, keep rocking!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *inhertenderlips* /forum/post/16787149
> 
> 
> hey hifi, the style that your set up has is sweet. do you run a sub in that room? if so which one? and if not, do you plan on adding one? ive never heard W/B speakers but i will admit i'd be be surprised if those speakers really handle the lower frequencies well. classy though, keep rocking!



tenderlips -


Thanks for the compliment. I admit that while this system sounds great, it was just as important that it make a visual statement too. Audiophile jewelry if you will. It's like owning a nice sports car. Sure you could trick out a Honda to match the performance of a Porsche for a lot less money, but I think most would still rather own the Porsche.










If you look behind the right front speaker, you will see a JL Audio F112 subwoofer in the corner. While it certainly is needed to get full range sound, the Discovery's (the main fronts) are solid down to 40Hz, and they can pump that out at very high levels without compression or bottoming out.


One of my goals was to get the biggest, most effortless sound out of the smallest package possible. I don't know if you noticed, but there are three 7" drivers in each of those "stand mount" Wilson Benesch speakers. There's the mid/bass driver on the face of the speaker, and then two more bass drivers in an isobaric clamshell configuration on the bottom of the speaker. Wilson Benesch affectionately refers to the Discovery speakers as "micro floorstanders", and that's really how they perform-- like a medium sized floorstanding speaker crammed into the size of a standmount. The smallish JL sub was also chosen for this reason. I owned a somewhat large Velodyne DD15 sub prior to the JL F112, and honestly, the JL with a 12" driver, clearly provides a more visceral and dynamic sound than the 15" driver in the Velo.


Here's a look at the isobaric woofer clamshell inside the Discovery speaker.












You can see one of the woofers hanging out the bottom of the speaker in the shot below. The other is tucked inside.











Now if you'll excuse me, I got to go rock out!


----------



## inhertenderlips

thanks boss


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *inhertenderlips* /forum/post/16787732
> 
> 
> thanks boss



So Mr. Lips







, I see that you work for the Magnolia division of Best Buy. You must have access to some pretty nice gear at a discount. Which speakers do you own? Def Tech, Monitor Audio, ML, Vienna?


BTW - did you know that Magnolia AV originated here in WA state? It was named after a ritzy area of Seattle where the first shop was located.


----------



## ldgibson76

Hello Tim.


I don't know if you can recall, but a while back, we exchanged posts and shared some laughs regarding your system and your quest for speaker perfection, nirvana, infinite bliss, or something along the lines of complete satisfaction! In your case, a lofty goal being that you pretty much auditioned, borrowed, traded and/or owned nearly every highly regarded speaker system out there!


During your time with the Revel Studio2's, I said to myself "Finally, the man has found his speaker soul mate!" Yeah right!







Just ended up being another fling! Then low and behold, you find probably one of the most obscure speaker brands in the industry, Wilson-Benesch! No doubt, a "for those who know, knows" type of high-end speaker company. Top shelf!

The Discovery's are if not anything else unique in the approach, concept and construction, and are beautiful and probably the best sounding "micro floorstanding" speakers available. They must be because you've had them for more than 2 weeks!










I really hope you've achieved nirvana this time! Your quest has been an adventurous one. Congrats!










Regards.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ldgibson76* /forum/post/16823737
> 
> 
> Hello Tim.
> 
> 
> I don't know if you can recall, but a while back, we exchanged posts and shared some laughs regarding your system and your quest for speaker perfection, nirvana, infinite bliss, or something along the lines of complete satisfaction! In your case, a lofty goal being that you pretty much auditioned, borrowed, traded and/or owned nearly every highly regarded speaker system out there!
> 
> 
> During your time with the Revel Studio2's, I said to myself "Finally, the man has found his speaker soul mate!" Yeah right!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just ended up being another fling! Then low and behold, you find probably one of the most obscure speaker brands in the industry, Wilson-Benesch! No doubt, a "for those who know, knows" type of high-end speaker company. Top shelf!
> 
> The Discovery's are if not anything else unique in the approach, concept and construction, and are beautiful and probably the best sounding "micro floorstanding" speakers available. They must be because you've had them for more than 2 weeks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really hope you've achieved nirvana this time! Your quest has been an adventurous one. Congrats!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards.



ldg -


I've been wondering when you would come around.







Of course I remember our exchanges. I really thought the Revels would be the end to my search too, and even I'm surprised that I had to delve into the world of obscure speaker brands to get what I was after. For God's sake what will it take to please me?!










I've come to realize that no speaker will ever be perfect, because the music I listen to varies in recording quality so much that no one speaker can get it right for all of them, but, I am off the speaker buying merry-go-round thanks to my acceptance of this fact, and the help of some EQ for those particulary dissatisying recordings.


Good to hear from ya!


----------



## ldgibson76

Hey hifisponge!


I have a few things I need to get off my chest!










1st! I never commented on the photos of the back of your component rack. Why? Because I was insanely envious of your cables and cable management!









The fact that you constructed them really set me off!







Man, I could never assemble an interconnect or power cord. For me, it's an adventure just applying velcro strips to keep things in some kind of order! Hifi, it looks great!



















2nd! The Classe separates! You really went "bargain basement" with that choice!














Geez! What great equipment. Now Classe and B&W are normally suggested by most hifi retailers to be in tandem. Did you ever try the Nautilus series speakers?










And 3rd! Your gaming room!







OK! If my gaming room looked like that, the minute my kids entered the room unsupervised, they would be up for adoption!







Just kidding. The room looks great and the speaker pkg, where did you find those?!










Other than that, we're cool!










Regards.


P.S. The painstaking detail you put into your main room in regards to the acoustic treatment is to be commended! Outstanding!


Regards.


----------



## inhertenderlips




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16787854
> 
> 
> So Mr. Lips
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , I see that you work for the Magnolia division of Best Buy. You must have access to some pretty nice gear at a discount. Which speakers do you own? Def Tech, Monitor Audio, ML, Vienna?
> 
> 
> BTW - did you know that Magnolia AV originated here in WA state? It was named after a ritzy area of Seattle where the first shop was located.



i was aware of the back story, its a shame some of the mag AVs had to close out that way. i will admit we are well taken care of at bby, although i usually just get bombarded about it on this site so i try to keep it on the down low. at the moment, my system is two old polk towers that are soon to be replaced by the VA mozart grands in white! we finally carry that finish. HK 3490 stereo receiver and tivoli cd player. pretty basic, but i love two channel and my 5.1 is down the road. thanks for asking.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ldgibson76* /forum/post/16824191
> 
> 
> Hey hifisponge!
> 
> 
> I have a few things I need to get off my chest!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1st! I never commented on the photos of the back of your component rack. Why? Because I was insanely envious of your cables and cable management!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that you constructed them really set me off!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man, I could never assemble an interconnect or power cord. For me, it's an adventure just applying velcro strips to keep things in some kind of order! Hifi, it looks great!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2nd! The Classe separates! You really went "bargain basement" with that choice!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Geez! What great equipment. Now Classe and B&W are normally suggested by most hifi retailers to be in tandem. Did you ever try the Nautilus series speakers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And 3rd! Your gaming room!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK! If my gaming room looked like that, the minute my kids entered the room unsupervised, they would be up for adoption!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just kidding. The room looks great and the speaker pkg, where did you find those?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other than that, we're cool!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards.
> 
> 
> P.S. The painstaking detail you put into your main room in regards to the acoustic treatment is to be commended! Outstanding!
> 
> 
> Regards.



ldg -


First, you are riot! Second, I like having you around. It makes my efforts toward perfection all worth while. Third, if and when I die, my system is yours. I'm altering my will right after this.










I'm sure that if you were to sit down with me for 30 minutes, I could teach you how to make your own interconnects. Its no more difficult than a snap together model.


Yes, I have listened to the B&W 800 series, and I really wanted to like the 803D's as much as I liked the 802D's, but they are not all that similar. The 802D's are much to big for my room. I think the Classe gear would sound great with any good set of speakers though. It has very little if any character of its own, and a wonderfully smooth yet high resolution sound.


The speakers in the game room are Monitor Audio Radius's. I was going to go with a cheap HTIB in that room, but all of the all-in-one systems I listened to made me cringe. The little MA's though, those will make you think twice about small speakers. I like the sound in that room almost as much as the big room and it was a drop in the bucket of the total cost of the main system. Go figure.










PS - I'm still laughing.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *inhertenderlips* /forum/post/16824212
> 
> 
> i was aware of the back story, its a shame some of the mag AVs had to close out that way. i will admit we are well taken care of at bby, although i usually just get bombarded about it on this site so i try to keep it on the down low. at the moment, my system is two old polk towers that are soon to be replaced by the VA mozart grands in white! we finally carry that finish. HK 3490 stereo receiver and tivoli cd player. pretty basic, but i love two channel and my 5.1 is down the road. thanks for asking.



Sorry if I hit a sore spot with my reference to getting a deal from your place of work. I'm sure you know that I wasn't digging for a deal, just curious if you yourself had used it to your advantage. I go broke if I worked at an AV store.










I like your sense of style. Mozarts in white will make a statement for sure. Do the Mozarts come with the cool metal base like the Beethovens? That powder coated black base would provide a nice point of visual contrast, and a nice finishing touch to a gloss white speaker.


----------



## Bigred7078




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16827315
> 
> 
> Do the Mozarts come with the cool metal base like the Beethovens?




Yup, they sure do


----------



## hifisponge

Found a pic of the white Beehtovens. Sexy.











And judging by this picture, the speaker knows just how sexy it is.


----------



## ldgibson76




> Quote:
> ldg -
> 
> 
> First, you are riot! Second, I like having you around. It makes my efforts toward perfection all worth while. Third, if and when I die, my system is yours. I'm altering my will right after this.
> 
> 
> I'm sure that if you were to sit down with me for 30 minutes, I could teach you how to make your own interconnects. Its no more difficult than a snap together model.
> 
> 
> Yes, I have listened to the B&W 800 series, and I really wanted to like the 803D's as much as I liked the 802D's, but they are not all that similar. The 802D's are much to big for my room. I think the Classe gear would sound great with any good set of speakers though. It has very little if any character of its own, and a wonderfully smooth yet high resolution sound.
> 
> 
> The speakers in the game room are Monitor Audio Radius's. I was going to go with a cheap HTIB in that room, but all of the all-in-one systems I listened to made me cringe. The little MA's though, those will make you think twice about small speakers. I like the sound in that room almost as much as the big room and it was a drop in the bucket of the total cost of the main system. Go figure.
> 
> 
> PS - I'm still laughing.
> 
> __________________
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> - Tim
> 
> 
> The *Acoustic Cloud* Project
> 
> 
> My Wilson-Benesch HT
> 
> 
> Wilson-Benesch Speaker Thread



Hello Tim.


About the "When you die, the system is mine, altering your will" thing, Thanks, but No thanks! A very kind gesture no doubt, but I can see it now...., One evening, I'm lounging enjoying the lovely system you've so kindly left me, the WB's singing, sounding like heaven on earth. Later in the evening, I go to bed. I wake up in the morning and come down to admire the equipment just before I go to work and low and behold! I'm staring at a pair of Watt Puppies!







Then I realized, my house is haunted!

I've been visited by the "Ghost of 'My Journey to find the perfect speaker' Past"!







(That being you Tim!







). Your ghost would just keep swapping speakers out on me, still in search of speaker perfection/nirvana! Force of habit I guess!










But now that I think about it, that may not be a bad thing. A new high-end speaker package every two weeks or so. Why should I be upset about that! It's settled! I'm in! Sign me up!










By the way, how do you like the SSP-800?! I'm sure you love it, but is there anything you would change or alter about it? It does have HDMI inputs doesn't it? And if so, does it recognize the Hi-rez audio formats or do you just bitstream from the Sony BDP-S550?


Regards.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ldgibson76* /forum/post/16831415
> 
> 
> Hello Tim.
> 
> 
> About the "When you die, the system is mine, altering your will" thing, Thanks, but No thanks! A very kind gesture no doubt, but I can see it now...., One evening, I'm lounging enjoying the lovely system you've so kindly left me, the WB's singing, sounding like heaven on earth. Later in the evening, I go to bed. I wake up in the morning and come down to admire the equipment just before I go to work and low and behold! I'm staring at a pair of Watt Puppies!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then I realized, my house is haunted!
> 
> I've been visited by the "Ghost of 'My Journey to find the perfect speaker' Past"!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (That being you Tim!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). Your ghost would just keep swapping speakers out on me, still in search of speaker perfection/nirvana! Force of habit I guess!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But now that I think about it, that may not be a bad thing. A new high-end speaker package every two weeks or so. Why should I be upset about that! It's settled! I'm in! Sign me up!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, how do you like the SSP-800?! I'm sure you love it, but is there anything you would change or alter about it? It does have HDMI inputs doesn't it? And if so, does it recognize the Hi-rez audio formats or do you just bitstream from the Sony BDP-S550?
> 
> 
> Regards.



That's certainly a ghost that I wouldn't mind having around.










About the Classe prepro. . . the funny thing is that I used to be "the all amps, pres, cd players sound the same" sort of guy, as that was my experience up till trying the Classe pre. I still don't hear much difference between amps and CD players, but the Classe prepro brings a level of resolution and refinement to the sound that makes my best recordings sound very close to the real thing. It has the unusual combo of smoothness and resolution.


The SSP-800 doesn't currently decode HD audio, but Classe is just a couple of months away from providing a free dsp board upgrade that will enable that function. The ony thing I really wish for is Logic 7 surround processing for 2CH music. I had that decoder in my Lexicon prepro and I have not heard anything that does a better job of creating surround out of 2CH music.


----------



## chjo100

Wow hifisponge,


I stumbled upon your thread and impressed with all the speakers you auditioned in house. I was interested because you are actually pretty close to where I work (Bellevue) and I've listened to the Classe SSP-800 at Definitive Audio and was bowled over by the sound (it helped that they were paired with the Wilson Audio Sashas). Where did you get to audition the Wilson Bensch speakers. I wasn't aware of any dealers in the area? If you have a chance you should go check out the Eficion F300 speakers. They are actually right next to you at the Redmond Town Center. They are excellent speakers. After auditioning I ended up purchasing a pair. I'd like to know your thoughts if you ever get a chance to listen.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/16866651
> 
> 
> Wow hifisponge,
> 
> 
> I stumbled upon your thread and impressed with all the speakers you auditioned in house. I was interested because you are actually pretty close to where I work (Bellevue) and I've listened to the Classe SSP-800 at Definitive Audio and was bowled over by the sound (it helped that they were paired with the Wilson Audio Sashas). Where did you get to audition the Wilson Bensch speakers. I wasn't aware of any dealers in the area? If you have a chance you should go check out the Eficion F300 speakers. They are actually right next to you at the Redmond Town Center. They are excellent speakers. After auditioning I ended up purchasing a pair. I'd like to know your thoughts if you ever get a chance to listen.



Yeah, I'm surprised myself at all of the speakers I went through.










I loved certain qualities of all of them, but it took some trial and error to get the right combination of qualities. I hadn't heard of Eficion before, which is surprising since their main office is right down the street. I'll have to check them out. Certainly looks like they use really high quality drivers, and thats half the battle.


----------



## toddRiffic

hey hifisponge,


That is a very impressive setup, great post of your experience/journey. Your speakers are beautiful! I just happened to be discussing isobaric woofer configurations with a co-worker last Thursday. I haven't seen such a thing in years, especially not in a bookshelf speaker. What crossover point do you use for them? Glad to hear you are finally satisfied.. for now.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *toddRiffic* /forum/post/16889578
> 
> 
> hey hifisponge,
> 
> 
> That is a very impressive setup, great post of your experience/journey. Your speakers are beautiful! I just happened to be discussing isobaric woofer configurations with a co-worker last Thursday. I haven't seen such a thing in years, especially not in a bookshelf speaker. What crossover point do you use for them? Glad to hear you are finally satisfied.. for now.



Hey neighbor.










I've experimented with the x-over point, and while 60hz would be best, due to the room, I've gone with 80hz. I miss out on a little of the bass definition offered by the Discovery, but I get better overall bass balance.


----------



## toddRiffic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16890363
> 
> 
> Hey neighbor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've experimented with the x-over point, and while 60hz would be best, due to the room, I've gone with 80hz. I miss out on a little of the bass definition offered by the Discovery, but I get better overall bass balance.



Hey Tim,


How are you liking this record heat?







I was curious about your x-over as I would have guessed that the design of your speakers would make them above average capable for their size in the bass department. Since you have went through so many speakers, have you ever heard of VMPS Audio? A co-worker of mine swears by them.


Again, great post!


Todd


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *toddRiffic* /forum/post/16918495
> 
> 
> Hey Tim,
> 
> 
> How are you liking this record heat?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was curious about your x-over as I would have guessed that the design of your speakers would make them above average capable for their size in the bass department. Since you have went through so many speakers, have you ever heard of VMPS Audio? A co-worker of mine swears by them.
> 
> 
> Again, great post!
> 
> 
> Todd



Yeah, WTF is up with the 105 degree heat? This is the Pacific NW is it not?


The WB's are capable of fairly low bass and good output, but the crossover selected is due to room issues. I could cross at 60, or even 50, but 80 gives the best blend at the crossover point.


I have heard of VMPS, though not much. I love most ribbon speakers I've heard, but the sound is rather directional in the vertical plane, so I would want the really tall models they sell, but don't have the space.


----------



## toddRiffic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16922956
> 
> 
> Yeah, WTF is up with the 105 degree heat? This is the Pacific NW is it not?
> 
> 
> The WB's are capable of fairly low bass and good output, but the crossover selected is due to room issues. I could cross at 60, or even 50, but 80 gives the best blend at the crossover point.
> 
> 
> I have heard of VMPS, though not much. I love most ribbon speakers I've heard, but the sound is rather directional in the vertical plane, so I would want the really tall models they sell, but don't have the space.



Hey Tim,


The last time I checked we are in the Pacific NW, I joked to some co-workers that maybe we don't know it, but we all died and didn't go to the good place!


Do you ever listen to music without your sub running the WB's in full range? I completely agree with you that in a smaller space that one does not need big speakers to get the big sound you are looking for.


My co-worker is close to finishing his dedicated HT in his basement, and want's me to come over to listen when he is done. I told him I didn't want to hear something so far beyond my modest system that I can both afford and am happy with.










I've been trying to get the best out of my system with the Audyssey calibration in my Denon avr. Have any opinions on Audyssey? Also I'm trying to get some suggestions as to a movie scene that has detailed bass and what to be listening for? It seems most/all discussion about movie bass as reference material is about how it can crack your drywall, not quality.


Stay cool,


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> The last time I checked we are in the Pacific NW, I joked to some co-workers that maybe we don't know it, but we all died and didn't go to the good place!



Too funny. With the way my luck has been going lately, it sure seems like I'm in hell, but that is a conversation for another place and time.



> Quote:
> Do you ever listen to music without your sub running the WB's in full range? I completely agree with you that in a smaller space that one does not need big speakers to get the big sound you are looking for.



Occasionally. I have a preset config in my prepro that allows me to flip back and forth between sub / full range. It is really only the bottom octave that is missing, but since I want it all, I usually go back to the sub pretty quickly.



> Quote:
> My co-worker is close to finishing his dedicated HT in his basement, and want's me to come over to listen when he is done. I told him I didn't want to hear something so far beyond my modest system that I can both afford and am happy with.



I completely understand. Ignorance is bliss as they say.











> Quote:
> I've been trying to get the best out of my system with the Audyssey calibration in my Denon avr. Have any opinions on Audyssey?



I've owned a Denon AVR with Audyssey and the stand-alone Audyssey processor, and I thought it was going to be the answer to all of my problems. Unfortunately, I got mixed results. It consistently filled in the lower midrange in my system (good), but it did strange things with the bass (bad). Some people are absolutely thrilled with the results, but I haven't decided if these people are just the impressionable type and any difference in sound would subconsciously be registered as "better", or if they truly had better luck with it than I did. With that said, I'm all for room EQ, I'm just not sold on the automatic part of the process. I want to be able to fine tune the results, or override them.


To get the best chance at getting good results, follow the Audyssey set-up procedure stated here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895 


I helped create it.











> Quote:
> Also I'm trying to get some suggestions as to a movie scene that has detailed bass and what to be listening for? It seems most/all discussion about movie bass as reference material is about how it can crack your drywall, not quality.



Hmm, well, most movies are going to be going for gunshots and explosions for the LFE channel, so I would look for some music videos instead. I know that the Blue Man Group came out with a DVD-Audio disc a while back called "The Complex" that would probably get you what you are after, but you need a DVDA player for that. I haven't heard it, but there is a live version of "The Complex" on BluRay that might be worth a shot. Or, if you like Jazz, check out Jazz Legends on BluRay. There is a track on there with a guy playing electric bass that is pretty amazing.


Try posting your question here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1125050 


If you ever want me to come over and run some frequency response sweeps of your system / room to help you fine tune your set-up, let me know. I have the equipment for it. Taking in-room measurements can really be helpful in setting up a subwoofer and in positioning your main speakers.


----------



## bioforce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16922956
> 
> 
> I have heard of VMPS, though not much. I love most ribbon speakers I've heard, but the sound is rather directional in the vertical plane, so I would want the really tall models they sell, but don't have the space.



Actually, unless you generally stand while critically listening the vertical dispersion is sufficient.


However the advantage of a slightly restricted vertical dispersion is "less" reflected sonic and more pure detail.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bioforce* /forum/post/16925331
> 
> 
> Actually, unless you generally stand while critically listening the vertical dispersion is sufficient.
> 
> 
> However the advantage of a slightly restricted vertical dispersion is "less" reflected sonic and more pure detail.



Yeah, you're right, I just don't like losing the highs when I'm doing other things around the house, or when friends are gathered in the room. In other words I don't like being tied to the listening seat to get good sound. My ceiling is also acoustically treated, so I don't personally have the need for restricted vertical dispersion. Though I do see how that could be a benefit for others.


----------



## toddRiffic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16924125
> 
> 
> Too funny. With the way my luck has been going lately, it sure seems like I'm in hell, but that is a conversation for another place and time.



I wish such a helpful person only the best of luck.












> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16924125
> 
> 
> Occasionally. I have a preset config in my prepro that allows me to flip back and forth between sub / full range. It is really only the bottom octave that is missing, but since I want it all, I usually go back to the sub pretty quickly.



Even though I always go back to using a sub, sometimes it's nice to listen to 2 channel music sans sub.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16924125
> 
> 
> I completely understand. Ignorance is bliss as they say.



And how, I don't have the budget for high end gear, perhaps someday.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16924125
> 
> 
> I've owned a Denon AVR with Audyssey and the stand-alone Audyssey processor, and I thought it was going to be the answer to all of my problems. Unfortunately, I got mixed results. It consistently filled in the lower midrange in my system (good), but it did strange things with the bass (bad). Some people are absolutely thrilled with the results, but I haven't decided if these people are just the impressionable type and any difference in sound would subconsciously be registered as "better", or if they truly had better luck with it than I did. With that said, I'm all for room EQ, I'm just not sold on the automatic part of the process. I want to be able to fine tune the results, or override them.



I'm sure many of followers may be the impressionable type. I probably didn't make too many friends when in a bit of a debate in the Audyssey thread, I stated that I trust my ears and did not believe that Audyssey was infallible. I do however, really like what it does for me, and the DEQ and DVOL features really sound like an improvement to me listening at the low volumes a apartment dweller has to abide by. I totally agree a greater level of user control would be a welcome addition.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16924125
> 
> 
> To get the best chance at getting good results, follow the Audyssey set-up procedure stated here:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895
> 
> 
> I helped create it.



I try to stick to it best I can, I'm am impressed, good job.












> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16924125
> 
> 
> Hmm, well, most movies are going to be going for gunshots and explosions for the LFE channel, so I would look for some music videos instead. I know that the Blue Man Group came out with a DVD-Audio disc a while back called "The Complex" that would probably get you what you are after, but you need a DVDA player for that. I haven't heard it, but there is a live version of "The Complex" on BluRay that might be worth a shot. Or, if you like Jazz, check out Jazz Legends on BluRay. There is a track on there with a guy playing electric bass that is pretty amazing.



I'll have to check out the BR.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16924125
> 
> 
> Try posting your question here.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1125050



I'll read the thread a bit and post later, thanks.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16924125
> 
> 
> If you ever want me to come over and run some frequency response sweeps of your system / room to help you fine tune your set-up, let me know. I have the equipment for it. Taking in-room measurements can really be helpful in setting up a subwoofer and in positioning your main speakers.



I'll probably be moving to another place in a couple of months, and I may have to take you up on your generous offer. The cold beverage of your choice and something from the grill could be arranged. I'm limited to a RS spl meter, Stereophile Test CD 1 and a home-brew audio test DVD downloaded from the DIY forums.


Thanks Tim


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *toddRiffic* /forum/post/16926788
> 
> 
> 
> I'll probably be moving to another place in a couple of months, and I may have to take you up on your generous offer. The cold beverage of your choice and something from the grill could be arranged. I'm limited to a RS spl meter, Stereophile Test CD 1 and a home-brew audio test DVD downloaded from the DIY forums.
> 
> 
> Thanks Tim



Sorry for the late reply, the notification that this thread had been updated got lost amongst the many others that I track.










Anyway, I'd be glad to help you out with your set-up in any way that I can. Just shoot me a PM.


----------



## Mr_Anderson

Damn you have been though a couple of speakers...! Hope you have the right one now










I must say you have a good taste in colours, furnitures, making the room look cosey and offcourse the equitment










Good job..


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mr_Anderson* /forum/post/17197172
> 
> 
> Damn you have been though a couple of speakers...! Hope you have the right one now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I must say you have a good taste in colours, furnitures, making the room look cosey and offcourse the equitment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good job..



Thanks for the compliments Mr. Anderson. And yes, I finally found the right speakers.










Though Focal is coming out with a revision to there Electra Be line, and I've always wanted to spend more time with the Dynaudio C1's, so who knows what the future holds.


----------



## sbb_f1234

cheers ..


----------



## sbb_f1234

Wilson-Benesch good quality ?


----------



## sbb_f1234

anyway I have to say you have a good taste . great job .


----------



## Bigred7078




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sbb_f1234* /forum/post/17202699
> 
> 
> Wilson-Benesch good quality ?



lol i dont think hifisponge would own something of not HIGH quality, especially after owning all the other speakers he has had. So short answer, they are of EXCELLENT quality and beautifully engineered.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sbb_f1234* /forum/post/17202699
> 
> 
> Wilson-Benesch good quality ?



Well, speaker sound quality is subjective, so I can't guarantee that you would like their sound more than another speaker, but yes, they are very good quality I believe. Hand made in England, carbon fiber cabinets, custom metal work, custom midrange and bass drivers that have had there baskets aerodynamically optimized to minimized reflections, and one of the best soft dome tweeters available.


Here's some more info on them: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1077351


----------



## notChris

The cabling job is beautiful. Nice job.


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks much! It's a labor of love.


----------



## Djoel

I love this thread Tim. I though I read this one before, lots of great pics down memory lane. You have had some great system there pal. Also I like the little learning Annex type cable lesson







, what I haven't seen is a picture of the new Pioneer KRM-600M flank by the WB










Thanks


Djoel


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/17384474
> 
> 
> I love this thread Tim. I though I read this one before, lots of great pics down memory lane. You have had some great system there pal. Also I like the little learning Annex type cable lesson
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , what I haven't seen is a picture of the new Pioneer KRM-600M flank by the WB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Djoel



Hah, yes, you were witness to most of my craziness while it was happening last year.










I guess I have to get the camera out to take some beauty shots of the glossy new Kuro.


I love the TV. I thought that I was fine with the black levels on my old Panny, but man the black levels on the Kuro look close to the TV being off. I just don't see picture quality getting any better than this.


----------



## boarder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/17385378
> 
> 
> Hah, yes, you were witness to most of my craziness while it was happening last year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I have to get the camera out to take some beauty shots of the glossy new Kuro.
> 
> 
> I love the TV. I thought that I was fine with the black levels on my old Panny, but man the black levels on the Kuro look close to the TV being off. I just don't see picture quality getting any better than this.



Gotta get some new pics of the 600M! I'm debating getting one myself (vs getting a larger non-Kuro).


I like your setup, also the wall color compliments it nicely. What color is that (if you remember) ?


----------



## hifisponge

Ahh yes, I finally took some pics last night, but forgot to post them here.

*Before:*











*After:*











I really liked the silver case on the Panny when I bought it, but there was just a bit too much matchy-matchy silver and black going on with the speakers and the TV. The glossy Lexan frame on the Kuro just disappears and it looks like it was made for the WB speakers with their glossy Lexan top.


And man, the picture quality of this panel is just remarkable. The blacks almost take some getting used to you because you can't tell it is on when the screen goes to black. It reminds me of going from an inexpensive AVR that has some hiss that you can hear between songs, to one that is dead silent.


----------



## bamboo5354

Did you unlock the ISF patch?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bamboo5354* /forum/post/17413451
> 
> 
> Did you unlock the ISF patch?



Not yet. Need to save up about $600 to pay for that and the professional calibration.


----------



## bamboo5354




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/17413469
> 
> 
> Not yet. Need to save up about $600 to pay for that and the professional calibration.



Looking at your stuffs it's hard to imagine you need to "save up" for $600


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bamboo5354* /forum/post/17440435
> 
> 
> Looking at your stuffs it's hard to imagine you need to "save up" for $600



You'd think.







But, the truth is, I've sacrificed many other things to pay for what you see. For instance, I drive a 1990 honda CRX, while my wife drives a 2008 BMW. I wish the rest of my lifestyle were up the level of my AV system.


----------



## ldgibson76

Hello Hifi!


Long time, no post...from me!










I hope you and the family are well and preparing for the holidays!

The new Pioneer flat panel looks outstanding! Just as you described, it really integrates well with the WB's and the set up/room as a whole!


Has Classe introduced the HDMI modification/upgrade for the SP-800 yet?

I know with the Rotel RSP-1098, the S-Video inputs are sacrificed to make room for the HDMI inputs. And those are video-only capable.

Will the HDMI modification for the Classe be one of full functionality (audio and video) or will it be strictly for video pass-thru? I hope I articulated that inquiry correctly?


Regards.


----------



## Bigred7078

damn hifi....that new Kuro looks spectacular in your setup. Your picture just shows how capable the PQ is for color pop and incredibly deep blacks


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ldgibson76* /forum/post/17443862
> 
> 
> Hello Hifi!
> 
> 
> Long time, no post...from me!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you and the family are well and preparing for the holidays!
> 
> The new Pioneer flat panel looks outstanding! Just as you described, it really integrates well with the WB's and the set up/room as a whole!
> 
> 
> Has Classe introduced the HDMI modification/upgrade for the SP-800 yet?
> 
> I know with the Rotel RSP-1098, the S-Video inputs are sacrificed to make room for the HDMI inputs. And those are video-only capable.
> 
> Will the HDMI modification for the Classe be one of full functionality (audio and video) or will it be strictly for video pass-thru? I hope I articulated that inquiry correctly?
> 
> 
> Regards.



Hey LDG -


Good to hear from ya.










The Classe prepro has had HDMI audio and video capability from the get go, but they recently did a hardware upgrade for all owners to a dual DSP board that allows it to decode the new HD audio formats (Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio). There are still a few bugs for Classe to work out, but no major issues.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bigred7078* /forum/post/17465518
> 
> 
> damn hifi....that new Kuro looks spectacular in your setup. Your picture just shows how capable the PQ is for color pop and incredibly deep blacks



Yeah, I'm very happy with the new look. The black level on the Kuro is just as advertised. Sometimes it's hard to tell if the damn thing is on.


----------



## notChris

Mmmm. Music for the Jilted Generation. Looks like you have all the main albums! Nice one brotha! I got to see them in Miami in March at the WMC (Ultra Music Festival) and they are crazy live. Crazy!


And your setup is really sweet. I love your cable management.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *notChris* /forum/post/17469639
> 
> 
> Mmmm. Music for the Jilted Generation. Looks like you have all the main albums! Nice one brotha! I got to see them in Miami in March at the WMC (Ultra Music Festival) and they are crazy live. Crazy!
> 
> 
> And your setup is really sweet. I love your cable management.













I never did get a chance to see Prodigy live in their prime, though the Chem Bros concert was certainly memorable. Crystal Method, not so much.


My cable management has since gone to ****. That was back when I could make many of my own cables to custom lengths, but now with fixed length HDMI, all sorts of specialized power cables, etc., it looks like any other geek's rat's nest. Oh well, I hardly ever look back their anyway.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16276645
> 
> 
> Hello all -
> 
> 
> I spent the last year searching for a set of speakers that I felt were a clear step-up from the Paradigm Signatures I used to own. .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been reluctant to post here because I went through so many failed attempts at finding speakers that I could live with before the WB's, that I wasn't sure if these would stay. Prior to this, I'd be all full of speaker lust for my latest speaker acquisition, but then two months later there would be something that drove me up the wall with their sound. *I'm happy to say that I've owned the WBs since November 2008, so it is safe to say that these are here to stay . . . for a while anyway.*



I know it's kinda whack to quote yourself, but I just realized that this month represents the 1 year mark for me owning the same set of speakers. I'm sure there were some bets out there otherwise.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/17472433
> 
> 
> I know it's kinda whack to quote yourself, but I just realized that this month represents the 1 year mark for me owning the same set of speakers. I'm sure there were some bets out there otherwise.



I beat you this year on the speaker changing front!







Congrats though, can't believe it has been that long already.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/17472551
> 
> 
> I beat you this year on the speaker changing front!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats though, can't believe it has been that long already.



So I know about the Ushers, the Monitor Audio Platinums, and the new Linkwitz Orions. Are there any others that I missed?


BTW - are the Orions finished yet?


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/17474772
> 
> 
> So I know about the Ushers, the Monitor Audio Platinums, and the new Linkwitz Orions. Are there any others that I missed?
> 
> 
> BTW - are the Orions finished yet?



Yep, those are it. Not much change, but just teasing you. I am waiting for the active crossover to arrive in the mail, and then it's time to fire them up...


I should have gotten a Kuro when it was still available.


----------



## hifisponge

I can't wait to hear what you think of them. How much longer for the x-overs?


----------



## vantagesc

Maybe a week or two...they were supposed to ship last week.


Is that your autobiography below the center channel?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/17476365
> 
> 
> Maybe a week or two...they were supposed to ship last week.
> 
> 
> Is that your autobiography below the center channel?



I'm sure that if you are anything like me, the waiting is killing you.










You're the first to have noticed that book. Did a google search for my name a while back, and apparently I'm a world famous british photographer.


Seemed like a good conversation piece, if a bit narcissistic.









http://www.timwalkerphotography.com/


----------



## CorboDuze

_"Prior deciding to go with the Mac Mini music server, I had a reference Classe CD player. But after comparing Mac to the dedicated player for hours (a CD in the Classe and ALAC files of the same CD in the Mac), I felt that there was no clear improvement in the sound provided by the Classe player, so I ditched it. The Mac Mini has to be the best $800 I've spent. I probably listened to 10% of my CD collection when I had to load each one into a single disc player, now I can listen to all of it with just the touch of button. It's awesome!"
_


Three questions:

- Is the mac mini connected to the rest of the system using the headphone out?

- how do you control the music server: do you use the TV as a monitor?

- what are the two boxes left and right of the mac mini ?


Thanks.


D


----------



## Waboman

Excellent HT, hifisponge. I loved your different speaker evolutions. I do like the looks of the Dyns. Awesome job!


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks Waboman -


That's quite a nice "little" system you have there too.










More fun to come!


----------



## Hypeber

I am a beginner on this stuff..but i really love your set for some reason...definitely my favorite just by looking at ur set. Do you mind how much did u spend on this? approximately?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Hypeber* /forum/post/18005368
> 
> 
> I am a beginner on this stuff..but i really love your set for some reason...definitely my favorite just by looking at ur set. Do you mind how much did u spend on this? approximately?



Thanks Hypeber. The look of the Wilson Benesch speakers is usually a love it / hate it reaction. If speakers were cars, the WBs would be an exotic sports car.


Speakers:

Discovery (front) - $11,450 / pair

Centre - $3,400

ARCs (surround) - $4,950 / pair

Wall mounts for ARCs - $1,500 / pair

JL F112 (sub) - $3,000


Front end:

Classe SSP-800 (processor) - $9,000

Classe CA-5100 (amp) - $5,500

Mac Mini (music server) - $700

Sony Bluray Player - $300

Pioneer Kuro TV - $6,000


Grand total: $45,800


I suppose this is as good a time as any to say that I'm selling off all of my high-end gear to go back to a more modest system. This isn't because I don't like what I have. It is honestly the best sounding system I've assembled. There are a number of factors, but one of the big ones is that I have so little time to listen these days, that it just doesn't make sense to have a high-end system any longer. Besides, I've come to realize that I'm just not the type of person to stick with the same thing for too long, and there is no way on my salary that I can keep climbing the high-end audio ladder.


Now when I say a modest system, I'm not going to move to a set of speakers that can be had from Best Buy, but my total budget is roughly 1/4 of what I have now. Which is still a good chunk of dough, and my friends will still think I'm crazy.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/17990767
> 
> 
> 
> Three questions:
> 
> - Is the mac mini connected to the rest of the system using the headphone out?
> 
> - how do you control the music server: do you use the TV as a monitor?
> 
> - what are the two boxes left and right of the mac mini ?
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> D



Usually you would connect a Mac Mini to your processor via SPDIF toslink / optical. Minis come with remotes.


----------



## Bigred7078




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18005442
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose this is as good a time as any to say that I'm selling off all of my high-end gear to go back to a more modest system. This isn't because I don't like what I have. It is honestly the best sounding system I've assembled. There are a number of factors, but one of the big ones is that I have so little time to listen these days, that it just doesn't make sense to have a high-end system any longer. Besides, I've come to realize that I'm just not the type of person to stick with the same thing for too long, and there is no way on my salary that I can keep climbing the high-end audio ladder.
> 
> 
> Now when I say a modest system, I'm not going to move to a set of speakers that can be had from Best Buy, but my total budget is roughly 1/4 of what I have now. Which is still a good chunk of dough, and my friends will still think I'm crazy.



whoa whoa whoa! hold on now. Your changing everything!? What are you considering now?


----------



## btf1980




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18005442
> 
> 
> Thanks Hypeber. The look of the Wilson Benesch speakers is usually a love it / hate it reaction. If speakers were cars, the WBs would be an exotic sports car.
> 
> 
> Speakers:
> 
> Discovery (front) - $11,450 / pair
> 
> Centre - $3,400
> 
> ARCs (surround) - $4,950 / pair
> 
> Wall mounts for ARCs - $1,500 / pair
> 
> JL F112 (sub) - $3,000
> 
> 
> Front end:
> 
> Classe SSP-800 (processor) - $9,000
> 
> Classe CA-5100 (amp) - $5,500
> 
> Mac Mini (music server) - $700
> 
> Sony Bluray Player - $300
> 
> Pioneer Kuro TV - $6,000
> 
> 
> Grand total: $45,800
> 
> 
> I suppose this is as good a time as any to say that I'm selling off all of my high-end gear to go back to a more modest system. This isn't because I don't like what I have. It is honestly the best sounding system I've assembled. There are a number of factors, but one of the big ones is that I have so little time to listen these days, that it just doesn't make sense to have a high-end system any longer. Besides, I've come to realize that I'm just not the type of person to stick with the same thing for too long, and there is no way on my salary that I can keep climbing the high-end audio ladder.
> 
> 
> Now when I say a modest system, I'm not going to move to a set of speakers that can be had from Best Buy, but my total budget is roughly 1/4 of what I have now. Which is still a good chunk of dough, and my friends will still think I'm crazy.



WOW! Keep us posted as to what your replace this system with.


----------



## hifisponge

Hey guys -


Good to see you all here.










I will probably let some of you down with my choice to replace the Classe with something as pedestrian as a Denon AVR5308, but I think that it will suit my needs for mainly movie watching and the rare moments I actually get to listen to music. As for speakers, I'm still working up a list of candidates. Some on my current list are Focus Audio, Amphion, and Canton.


I'll keep you posted, but I can say this time around is not going to be as glitzty as my previous ventures.


----------



## ddgtr

Tim,


I am truly sorry to see such a great system dismantled... I do understand where you're coming from though...


You have put such care and effort into it, not to mention the cost. This is one of my favorite setups here.


Do you think you can sell some of that gear without taking a big hit?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/18008895
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> I am truly sorry to see such a great system dismantled... I do understand where you're coming from though...
> 
> 
> You have put such care and effort into it, not to mention the cost. This is one of my favorite setups here.
> 
> 
> Do you think you can sell some of that gear without taking a big hit?



It is somewhat sad to let all of this very special gear go, but it was as much about the experience as the final result. I was a man on a mission, bound and determined to put together something truly exceptional.


Now, I just need to see how close I can get with a more practical budget. Considing that I'm content with the sound that I get out of my game room system (MA Radius speakers and HK AVR), and I'm content with the sound quality of the $1,500 "premium" sound system in my car, I think I'll be alright with a system that "only" costs $10K.










At least the pics of the WB / Classe dream system will be forever immortalized in this thread. Well, at least until the sever crashes.










I'm putting this one in my personal history books for sure.


----------



## btf1980




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18008755
> 
> 
> Hey guys -
> 
> 
> Good to see you all here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will probably let some of you down with my choice to replace the Classe with something as pedestrian as a Denon AVR5308, but I think that it will suit my needs for mainly movie watching and the rare moments I actually get to listen to music. As for speakers, I'm still working up a list of candidates. Some on my current list are Focus Audio, Amphion, and Canton.
> 
> 
> I'll keep you posted, but I can say this time around is not going to be as glitzty as my previous ventures.



Sorry, but this brought a slight chuckle out of me. I hope you don't mind.


Isn't it funny how so far removed we are from "normal" people? So much so that an avr costing several thousand dollars like the avr5308 is downsizing. The average person would have a heart attack over spending that much. I think my sister's first car cost less than the msrp of the 5308. Just putting it in perspective...lol.


----------



## vantagesc

Depending on the speakers you end up with, the 5308 could be serious overkill. Though admittedly, I wonder how much performance I'm leaving on the table using my 2808 as a processor for movies with my Orions.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *btf1980* /forum/post/18010948
> 
> 
> Sorry, but this brought a slight chuckle out of me. I hope you don't mind.
> 
> 
> Isn't it funny how so far removed we are from "normal" people? So much so that an avr costing several thousand dollars like the avr5308 is downsizing. The average person would have a heart attack over spending that much. I think my sister's first car cost less than the msrp of the 5308. Just putting it in perspective...lol.



I don't mind at all and you are completely right. I am nuts for thinking that going with a $5500 AVR is downsizing.










In my defense I did say this in an earlier post:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18005442
> 
> 
> Now when I say a modest system, I'm not going to move to a set of speakers that can be had from Best Buy, but my total budget is roughly 1/4 of what I have now. Which is still a good chunk of dough, and my friends will still think I'm crazy.



So at least I know I'm crazy.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18010978
> 
> 
> Depending on the speakers you end up with, the 5308 could be serious overkill. Though admittedly, I wonder how much performance I'm leaving on the table using my 2808 as a processor for movies with my Orions.



Well, I do tend to overestimate my needs







, but there is some "better safe than sorry" factored in there.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18005442
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose this is as good a time as any to say that I'm selling off all of my high-end gear to go back to a more modest system.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bigred7078* /forum/post/18006961
> 
> 
> whoa whoa whoa! hold on now. Your changing everything!? What are you considering now?



Wow! That's a shocker. I just found your wonderful thread and HT system. I know, I know, I move slow.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *btf1980* /forum/post/18007658
> 
> 
> WOW! Keep us posted as to what your replace this system with.



Yes, i'm curious as to what you'll replace those wonderful Wilsons with.


Just a quick question regarding the Classe SSP800. I've looked into it, but found it's lack of room correction at that price point a deal breaker. What are your thoughts on it? And did you do anything to compensate for the omission of room correction software?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18011067
> 
> 
> 
> So at least I know I'm crazy.



Lol. With this great hobby ya gotta walk a little on the crazy side.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/18011604
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, i'm curious as to what you'll replace those wonderful Wilsons with.



At this point it looks like the system will all be upper mid-fi, with a Denon AVR5308 at the front end, and I'm considering Focus Audio, Amphion and Canton Reference speakers.



> Quote:
> Just a quick question regarding the Classe SSP800. I've looked into it, but found it's lack of room correction at that price point a deal breaker. What are your thoughts on it? And did you do anything to compensate for the omission of room correction software?



Actually the SSP does have room correction, it's just a manual affair, which frankly I prefer. Solutions like Audyssey are hit and miss, and there is no easy way to adjust the results unless you opt for the pro version, which is part of the reason that I'm going with the 5308. Only the top two Denon AVRs provide the "Audyssey pro" option.


I've owned Denon AVRs with Audyssey in the past (no pro option) and the results were a mixed bag, but there was nothing that I could do about it. With the SSP-800 and using Room EQ Wizard to measure the in-room frequency response, I was able to tune the manual EQ to get exactly the results I wanted. As far as innate sound quality, the SSP-800 sounds more like a very good analog pre than an HT processor. No, it's not magnitudes better than a high end AVR, but it is pretty well known that you pay a lot more for that last 10%.


----------



## hifisponge

Waboman -


I meant to ask about your system. Have you been a responsible audiophile or have you also gone "a little crazy"?


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18012207
> 
> 
> At this point it looks like the system will all be upper mid-fi, with a Denon AVR5308 at the front end, and I'm considering Focus Audio, Amphion and Canton Reference speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the SSP does have room correction, it's just a manual affair, which frankly I prefer. Solutions like Audyssey are hit and miss, and there is no easy way to adjust the results unless you opt for the pro version, which is part of the reason that I'm going with the 5308. Only the top two Denon AVRs provide the "Audyssey pro" option.
> 
> 
> I've owned Denon AVRs with Audyssey in the past (no pro option) and the results were a mixed bag, but there was nothing that I could do about it. With the SSP-800 and using Room EQ Wizard to measure the in-room frequency response, I was able to tune the manual EQ to get exactly the results I wanted. As far as innate sound quality, the SSP-800 sounds more like a very good analog pre than an HT processor. No, it's not magnitudes better than a high end AVR, but it is pretty well known that you pay a lot more for that last 10%.



That's good to know. How labor intensive is it to properly adjust the manual EQ? I have a 7.2 setup. Does the manual EQ cover all channels? My pre/pro is the Denon AVP, which is running Audyssey. Took me several times to get it dialed in correctly.


Say, why not bring over the Wilsons and SSP800?







I'll throw some steaks on the grill, and we'll mess around in the HT.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18012288
> 
> 
> Waboman -
> 
> 
> I meant to ask about your system. Have you been a responsible audiophile or have you also gone "a little crazy"?



Lol. Responsible? What does that mean?







My wife thinks I'm completely off my rocker.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/18012455
> 
> 
> That's good to know. How labor intensive is it to properly adjust the manual EQ? I have a 7.2 setup. Does the manual EQ cover all channels? My pre/pro is the Denon AVP, which is running Audyssey. Took me several times to get it dialed in correctly.
> 
> 
> Say, why not bring over the Wilsons and SSP800?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll throw some steaks on the grill, and we'll mess around in the HT.



The manual EQ is only something that should be handling by someone that is experienced. I'm self taught, but also spent a fair amount of time consulting an acoustician. Yes the EQ is available for all channels. It would run you around $500-700 to have a pro perform the calibration.


I'm curious, what did you do to dial in the Audyssey on your AVP? Since I'm headed back to that tech, I'll take any pointers / advice I can get.


Is tomorrow around noon OK to stop by with the WB / Classe combo?










Are you in WA state?


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18012520
> 
> 
> The manual EQ is only something that should be handling by someone that is experienced. I'm self taught, but also spent a fair amount of time consulting an acoustician. Yes the EQ is available for all channels. It would run you around $500-700 to have a pro perform the calibration.
> 
> 
> I'm curious, what did you do to dial in the Audyssey on your AVP? Since I'm headed back to that tech, I'll take any pointers / advice I can get.
> 
> 
> Is tomorrow around noon OK to stop by with the WB / Classe combo?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you in WA state?



Dialing in Audyssey for me was simply making sure the mic placements were right for my room. A lot of trial & error. I would do an Audyssey cal, then listen for a few days. If it didn't sound just right, I'd run it again until finally I got her dialed in right. Ultimately, it sounds pretty good. I would love to have a professional audio cal done... perhaps with a new SSP800...?










Here's a really good Audyssey guide.


Yeah, noon works. Grey Goose bloodies, and some manual EQing of the SSP800.

















I'm chilling* in MN.

*Literally, it's cold today.


----------



## ldgibson76

Hello Hifi!


It's good to see you and Waboman exchanging posts! Jeff, can you believe this guy!?! He wants to downgrade his masterpiece!


HIfi! Are you nuts!

The dismantling of the Classe and WB combo!!!!! Say it ain't so!










And categorizing the Denon AVR5308 as "pedestrian" just cracks me up!









For us mere mortals, the 5308 is like, top-of-the-line for AVR's!


Hifi, you've invested so much time into configuring arguably, one of the best ensembles on the forum. Not to mention the "The Quest for Speaker Perfection!" By the way, if I recall, I had dibs on the WB's. As a matter of fact, they where willed to me, if I'm not mistaken! Oh that's right, you're still alive!










It took you damn near 2 years to land on the WB's and what?! Now you want to downgrade!?!










God bless ya man! It takes a strong individual to make that kind of decision!

I must say, considering the Denon AVR5308 is as about as low as you'll be able to go! Because after the Classe SSP-800, everything else is going to pale in comparison! No, everyting else is going to "suck" in comparison!

And the speakers....







What can possible follow up the the WB's!?! Let me give you an example.....

it's going to be like attending a LUCIANO PAVAROTTI concert and then his follow up would be Bob Dylan!










I know I'm being dramatic. I have no doubt that the speaker pkg you choose will be of the highest standard in it's price class.


Hifi! This is a sad day, I tell you!







Your cable management alone, is award winning stuff (if there was such an award!







)


Are we talking just the Classe pieces and the WB's or a complete refit?!


BTW, I'm just being facetious!







I know whatever you decide on, it will garner the same type of fanfare your current system recieves.


Regards.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ldgibson76* /forum/post/18016963
> 
> 
> Hello Hifi!
> 
> 
> It's good to see you and Waboman exchanging posts! Jeff, can you believe this guy!?! He wants to downgrade his masterpiece!
> 
> 
> HIfi! Are you nuts!
> 
> The dismantling of the Classe and WB combo!!!!! Say it ain't so!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And categorizing the Denon AVR5308 as "pedestrian" just cracks me up!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For us mere mortals, the 5308 is like, top-of-the-line for AVR's!
> 
> 
> Hifi, you've invested so much time into configuring arguably, one of the best ensembles on the forum. Not to mention the "The Quest for Speaker Perfection!" By the way, if I recall, I had dibs on the WB's. As a matter of fact, they where willed to me, if I'm not mistaken! Oh that's right, you're still alive!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It took you damn near 2 years to land on the WB's and what?! Now you want to downgrade!?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God bless ya man! It takes a strong individual to make that kind of decision!
> 
> I must say, considering the Denon AVR5308 is as about as low as you'll be able to go! Because after the Classe SSP-800, everything else is going to pale in comparison! No, everyting else is going to "suck" in comparison!
> 
> And the speakers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What can possible follow up the the WB's!?! Let me give you an example.....
> 
> it's going to be like attending a LUCIANO PAVAROTTI concert and then his follow up would be Bob Dylan!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know I'm being dramatic. I have no doubt that the speaker pkg you choose will be of the highest standard in it's price class.
> 
> 
> Hifi! This is a sad day, I tell you!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your cable management alone, is award winning stuff (if there was such an award!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> 
> Are we talking just the Classe pieces and the WB's or a complete refit?!
> 
> 
> BTW, I'm just being facetious!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know whatever you decide on, it will garner the same type of fanfare your current system recieves.
> 
> 
> Regards.




Hey LD -


I knew it was only a matter of time until you showed up to give me a hard time.










The truth is that I don't really get to spend much "quality" time with my uber system. It's like having a Ferrari that I drive once a month. This would be fine if had money to burn, but I don't and I'd like to free up some cash for other things. The other thing is that I've come to realize that I just like playing around and trying new things out too much (everyone else knew it, it just took me a while







). And since I'm not rich, that playground has to be in the upper mid-fi category.










As for the "downgrade", I'm not too worried about it. You pay a hellava lot more to get that last 10%, so I'm confident that I can assemble a great sounding system at a price point that is considerably lower than the money I have into it now. It won't be hand-made in the UK comprised of parts that belong in an F1 racer more than a speaker, but as you said, the speaker pkg I choose will be of the highest standard in its price class. And if it ain't perfect, that's OK. I'll have fun with it for a while and then try something different later.










BTW - I'm keeping the JL sub, the Kuro and the Mac Mini.


----------



## funkmonkey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18017398
> 
> 
> Hey LD -
> 
> ...BTW - I'm keeping the JL sub, the Kuro and the Mac Mini.



Wow! I just saw the news. You should write a book, Tim: "Zen and the Art of Stereo Maintenance (it's all about the journey)"







It sounds like you are still having fun, and you are right, it _is_ all about the journey. There are a lot of people out there that never realize that, and they spend way more than you have while in search of the illusive perfect system. I think that you managed to get very close to yours, and that is something that you will always have, long after all your gear has been re-sold for the 10th time.










It's good to hear the sanity in your insanity. As you set off on your new path, you really owe yourself the effort to finally audition a pair of Salks. Who cares if you don't like them, but I think you might. The HT2-TL would be my recommendation for you, unless you wanted to go big and get a pair of 10" HT4s, or stay with the stand-mounts and get a pair of HT-1s. They would certainly suit your desire for customization, and they hold almost all of their resale value (which is _great_ for you)







Okay end of my unpaid sales pitch...


I wish you the best of luck in assembling your new system my friend. I hope that knowing what you know now, makes it a lot more fun and stress free.


Cheers,

Greg


PS - looks like there might be a new thread on the horizon


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funkmonkey* /forum/post/18017975
> 
> 
> Wow! I just saw the news. You should write a book, Tim: "Zen and the Art of Stereo Maintenance (it's all about the journey)"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like you are still having fun, and you are right, it _is_ all about the journey. There are a lot of people out there that never realize that, and they spend way more than you have while in search of the illusive perfect system. I think that you managed to get very close to yours, and that is something that you will always have, long after all your gear has been re-sold for the 10th time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's good to hear the sanity in your insanity. As you set off on your new path, you really owe yourself the effort to finally audition a pair of Salks. Who cares if you don't like them, but I think you might. The HT2-TL would be my recommendation for you, unless you wanted to go big and get a pair of 10" HT4s, or stay with the stand-mounts and get a pair of HT-1s. They would certainly suit your desire for customization, and they hold almost all of their resale value (which is _great_ for you)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay end of my unpaid sales pitch...
> 
> 
> I wish you the best of luck in assembling your new system my friend. I hope that knowing what you know now, makes it a lot more fun and stress free.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> PS - looks like there might be a new thread on the horizon



Hey Greg -


Good to see you here. I was thinking about a comment you made to me back in the Perfect Speaker thread when I wrote: "The other thing is that I've come to realize that I just like playing around and trying new things out too much (everyone else knew it, it just took me a while)." At the time, I thought it was really possible to achieve perfection, and it was my personal conquest to get it. Like you said, I got closer to that goal than I ever had before, but I painted myself in a corner.


Here's my book, written as a children's story:


Tim's favorite treat is chocolate. But he doesn't want drug store chocolate, he wants a fine, rare Belgian chocolate wrapped in gold foil. WB + Classe = very fine chocolate indeed.


Tim also likes cookies, and cake, ice cream ... and different varieties of each. Not as much as chocolate, but they are still good. When all Tim has had is chocolate for the past year, cookies look better. Tim really wants cookies now, but all of his money is tied up in stock of very expensive fine chocolate.


Tim tastes less expensive (but still high quality) chocolate and it is very good. Tim can have chocolate, cookies, and cake if he does not buy only Belgian chocolate.


And now back to our regularly scheduled program....


The only thing that has kept me from trying out the Salks, is their very traditional styling. Shallow? Maybe. But speakers are as much furnitiure as they are sound producers. And for me, that style has to be modern / contemporary. I thought about having a custom pair of Song Towers made. It has the right proportions, but it would take some effort to redesign the other elements to make it look more modern and I don't know if end result would match the one in my mind's eye. What I need is to hear some Salks locally to know if it is worth the effort, a since I am honestly on a bit of budget I don't know if I could go custom and stay within bounds.


I'm not sure that I wan't the maintainence that often goes along with a dedicated thread in the speakers section, so for now, I plan to report on my experiences here.


Hope to see you back here every once in a while.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ldgibson76* /forum/post/18016963
> 
> 
> What can possible follow up the the WB's!?!



Perhaps a pair of the 101 X-tremes?


----------



## Fanaticalism

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!


Tim, DON'T DO IT!


And what's wrong with speakers from BB? (taps foot)


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/18019131
> 
> 
> Perhaps a pair of the 101 X-tremes?



I wish I made a plastic surgeon's income. I'd have a room for a pair of the 101 X-tremes and another room for these:











No, scratch that... I would have two rooms with 11.4 surround sound, with the MBLS and a Rockports for all 11 channels. I think I cr*pped my pants just thinking about it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fanaticalism* /forum/post/18019138
> 
> 
> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
> 
> 
> Tim, DON'T DO IT!
> 
> 
> And what's wrong with speakers from BB? (taps foot)



Wow, all the familiar faces are showing up to my high-end audio funeral.










How the VA's treatin' ya? You know you want to replace them.


Come young Luke ... join the dark side . . .


----------



## Fanaticalism




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18019293
> 
> 
> Wow, all the familiar faces are showing up to my high-end audio funeral.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How the VA's treatin' ya? You know you want to replace them.
> 
> 
> Come young Luke ... join the dark side . . .



Hehe. I do admit that I am much like you in that I love buying and trying out new toys, but I am not in the financial position to do that. It is actually funny because I was having a conversation about this a few days ago. If I were as deep into this hobby 10 years ago as I am now (in that I actually understand what I am buying and what to look for, as opposed to just buying what the salesman recommends), my system would certainly be on the higher end of the spectrum as I was much more fortunate then.


I do always get the itch to go and start listening to speakers again for an upgrade, until I come home and listen to my VA's, and those thoughts all but wash away completely. If I were ever in that financial position again, I'd be all over VA's "Music".


----------



## funkmonkey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18018608
> 
> 
> The only thing that has kept me from trying out the Salks, is their very traditional styling. Shallow? Maybe. But speakers are as much furnitiure as they are sound producers. And for me, that style has to be modern / contemporary. I thought about having a custom pair of Song Towers made. It has the right proportions, but it would take some effort to redesign the other elements to make it look more modern and I don't know if end result would match the one in my mind's eye. What I need is to hear some Salks locally to know if it is worth the effort, a since I am honestly on a bit of budget I don't know if I could go custom and stay within bounds....



This pair actually made me think of you, I know how much you like the ebony:
 


Just my opinion of course, but something like this is a very handsome piece of furniture. Pedestrian styling? _perhaps_ Boxy shape? _certainly_ but when you get down to it nearly all furniture is based on rectangles... and it would cost less for your front three (decked out in ebony, no less) than your current surrounds.


And YES, just go listen to a pair already, that part is free




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18018608
> 
> 
> Hope to see you back here every once in a while.



I'll be around, even though I don't post as much as I used to, I still keep up with my reading.


----------



## thenish03

hifi,


Like many have said already, you have complied an amazing system that many just dream about. But like you have said, half the fun in this hobby is the journey to audio nirvana (which you have already accomplished); so it will be exciting for us forum followers to watch and see how you can get back to that spot with a smaller budget.


Sounds like you are taking this challenge head on by not going back to speakers that you have already auditioned in the past. I look forward to your insight into Focus Audio, Amphion and Canton.


Curious if you are already set on the Denon AVR5308 or do you plan on testing any other front end gear out?


Eagerly waiting for this journey to start.


Nish


----------



## hifisponge

Hello nish03 -


Thanks for the words of encouragement.










Yes, I'm set in my decision to go with the Denon 5308. Before I lost my mind last year and went cost no object, I was primarily a Denon AVR guy. As much as I wish I did, I just don't hear much difference between amps, processors, cd players, etc. And I've tried.


I don't think I ever cataloged this here before, but when I was searching for the best set of speakers I could find, I was also going through different processors, amps and CD players.


All in all, I had in my home at one point or another, the following:


Players

* Classe CDP-300 universal player

* Linn Unidisk universal player


Amps

* Classe Delta CAM-400 monoblocks

* Bel Canto Ref 1000 monoblocks

* Parasound Halo A51 multi-channel

* Lexicon LX-7 multi-channel

* NAD Master Series multi-channel

* Anthem Statement multi-channel


Processors

* Anthem Statement D2

* NAD Master Series M15

* Lexicon MC12-HD

* Classe SSP-800


My reference at the time was a Denon 5800 AVR and a Denon 3910 universal player.


Out of all of those, the only pieces that made a noticeable difference in sound quality were the processors, but even still, these were very small subjective differences that I can't say with any certainty were anything more than my imagination. Don't pin me down on this, but the NAD may have been a bit smoother than the Denon AVR it replaced. The Lexicon sounded pretty much the same as the Denon, but has much better surround processing (Logic 7). The Anthem may have been a hair brighter than the Denon AVR. And the Classe seems more natural, refined and more resolving than any of the others. But again, these are small "polish" type improvements. None of the processors sounded "bad" in any way.


You make an interesting point about not going back to what I know, in regards to speakers. I've always been a speaker guy, in large part due to my failed attempts to realize meaningful improvements in the sound of my system with front-end gear. As such, I can't help but be curious about some of the other designs out there and what sort of changes they will bring to the table. But I'm not going to get too crazy this time around. I'm not seeking perfection. With that said, I won't settle for something harsh or boring, but if it falls somewhere in between, I'll stick with them for a while.


----------



## hifisponge

I should also mention that through all of my equipment changes, I found that the speakers, placement of the speakers and the listener, the room, the recording, proper set-up, and EQ all had a far more tangible effect on the sound quality than any of the fine pieces of front-end gear I've tried, including cables (yes, I went through several high end speaker cables, ICs and even HDMI cables in my quest for audio "truth").


I'm sure that the above won't come as a surprise to many in this forum, but I just had to see for myself where I stood on the age-old Subjective vs. Objective debate. And the only way to do that, even if it wasn't completely scientific, was to experience a variety of components for myself.


----------



## Mike_WI

Thanks for the updates, background and "what you learned".

Good stuff.


Mike


----------



## Waboman

hifi, I was just going over all your speakers again... it still amazes me.










The Monitor Audio Platinum 300's have really piqued my interest. I know in your brief review you state they're just too big. I currently have bigger ESL's. How would you say the Monitor 300's stack up to them? Also, did you get a chance to listen to the Platinum 350 center channel?


----------



## hifisponge

Amazing, or .... ridiculous. Depends on your perspective.










Sent you a PM about the MA Plats.


----------



## Waboman

Got it. Thanks.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/18044083
> 
> 
> hifi, I was just going over all your speakers again... it still amazes me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Monitor Audio Platinum 300's have really piqued my interest. I know in your brief review you state they're just too big. I currently have bigger ESL's. How would you say the Monitor 300's stack up to them? Also, did you get a chance to listen to the Platinum 350 center channel?



I notice you have Mac gear, which may just be the ticket with the Plats. I actually still have hifisponge's former PL100s, though I am moving them to surround duty unless they just don't sound good with my fronts.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18044596
> 
> 
> I notice you have Mac gear, which may just be the ticket with the Plats. I actually still have hifisponge's former PL100s, though I am moving them to surround duty unless they just don't sound good with my fronts.



Waboman -


Vantagesc is right. With a traditional SS amp, I found the mids were to forward on the PL300's, but when I listened to them with a McIntosh front-end, they were very nice. In fact, that is how I listened to them at the dealer, and the reason I bought them in the first place. I don't have room for the largish McGear, but since you already own it, the PL300's would be worth a listen.


----------



## Waboman

I'm only in the "just looking" stage right now. I do love my ML's, but that doesn't mean I can't look.







The Dali MS5's really have piqued my interest.


Anyone have any experience with the PMC EB1i, or the Sonus Faber Elipsa speakers? I know the SF's excel at 2-channel, but how do they perform in a HT environment?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/18044826
> 
> 
> I'm only in the "just looking" stage right now. I do love my ML's, but that doesn't mean I can't look.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Dali MS5's really have piqued my interest.
> 
> 
> Anyone have any experience with the PMC EB1i, or the Sonus Faber Elipsa speakers? I know the SF's excel at 2-channel, but how do they perform in a HT environment?



That's the best position to be in. If you are generally happy with the MLs, then you can take your time finding a replacement, and you may find in the end that you are happier with what you have than you thought.


Haven't heard the PMCs, but considering that they got their start in the pro studio monitor biz, they have my respect. I have a friend in the UK that almost chose them over the WB Discovery's, which also says to me that they must be something special.


In regards to HT speakers vs. Music speakers, to me there are really only a couple of differences. Ultimate loudness capability, and top end voicing. You want a speaker that isn't going to buckle or compress too much during dynamic sound effects in a movie. And what I mean by top end voicing, is that some music only speakers intentionally recess the upper midrange / lower treble to make them more forgiving. This sort of voicing can come across as too polite for movies. Other than that, sound is sound, and a good speaker should sound good whether that sound is music or a movie soundtrack. The speaker certainly doesn't know the difference.


----------



## mpmct

I wonder what vantagesc is running on the front end, and why he's not

using a center channel at all anymore.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mpmct* /forum/post/18049603
> 
> 
> I wonder what vantagesc is running on the front end, and why he's not
> 
> using a center channel at all anymore.



I believe you are the one who keeps going to his local hi-end dealer, listening to $50k systems, and not finding them up to par.


----------



## Fanaticalism

Hifi, I have a Denon AVR 5800 sitting in my dining room if you're interested!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fanaticalism* /forum/post/18051628
> 
> 
> Hifi, I have a Denon AVR 5800 sitting in my dining room if you're interested!



I would be, but I want / need the new Denon hottness with EQ and HDMI.


----------



## Bigred7078

Kinda makes me all teary eyed


----------



## vantagesc

Tim, did you ever use your PL100s as surrounds? Wondering how they sounded near a wall. When I had them as fronts, they were always at least 2-3 feet into the room and they definitely needed that space.


My experience with plugging ports isn't always positive...it sometimes reduces upper bass weight too much. I think a good compromise might be to crossover high, like 80hz, so that the port isn't being exercised as much as they might normally.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18053755
> 
> 
> Tim, did you ever use your PL100s as surrounds? Wondering how they sounded near a wall. When I had them as fronts, they were always at least 2-3 feet into the room and they definitely needed that space.
> 
> 
> My experience with plugging ports isn't always positive...it sometimes reduces upper bass weight too much. I think a good compromise might be to crossover high, like 80hz, so that the port isn't being exercised as much as they might normally.



Never did end up mounting the PL100s because I knew within the first two weeks that the 300s weren't not the speaker I was after. But I've mounted just about every type of speaker on that wall. As you pointed out, when you cross them over at 80Hz, a good portion of the bass reinforcement is cut off at the knees, and the rest is handled by EQ.


----------



## Fanaticalism

Next thing we know, you'll have a 32" LCD in place of the KRP.


----------



## ldgibson76

































I guess the emoticons sums it up the emotional rollercoaster you have me on!

The HK is just killin' me!










Tim I know you will put together a system that will rate up there with some of the best on the site.








I forgot about the cable management!










Oh you are really killin' me now!!!!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bigred7078* /forum/post/18052562
> 
> 
> Kinda makes me all teary eyed





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ldgibson76* /forum/post/18053862
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the emoticons sums it up the emotional rollercoaster you have me on!
> 
> The HK is just killin' me!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tim I know you will put together a system that will rate up there with some of the best on the site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot about the cable management!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh you are really killin' me now!!!!



Trust me guys, it's gonna be OK. Group hug?


----------



## ldgibson76




> Quote:
> Trust me guys, it's gonna be OK. Group hug?













It still makes me sad!










Tim, are you planning to piece-meal the new system or will you grab everything in one swoop! and is the Oppo BDP-83SE a consideration?


----------



## btf1980

My heart...


----------



## hifisponge

Man, you guys sure aren't making this any easier. Don't worry though, things always look worse than they are when I'm in a transition.


----------



## ldgibson76

Well TIM!


It's all your fault! I live my hi-end dream vicariously thru you!









And now you want to get all cheap on us!







What's that all about!?!










I might as well start appreciating my ensemble of junk!


You know, I'm only kidding. I truly respect your decision. But Tim, I know you!







And being content is not in your DNA! You are going to get all caught up in this new HT configuration. The Denon AVR5308 is an awesome all-in-one solution, but man, $5500.00 for an AVR, that's steep! Look, from what you're trying to accomplish, at $5500, if you like the Denon product, personally would consider the Denon AVR4310 as a pre pro and a nice 5 channel amp. Add the Oppo BDP-83SE. And you have a very formidable system. Or maybe the Marantz twins: AV8003 & MM8003! With a little shrewdness, you could grab that combo for less than 4K!

Of course, there's so much to choose from. But $5500 for an AVR in today's competitve market place is just crazy!


Take care my friend. And I am so feeling the photo btf1980 embedded!










Regards,


----------



## hifisponge

ld -


Yes, $5500 is crazy for an AVR, but I've got connections and can get it for substantially less than that.










I considered the Marantz combo, and I may still go there, but I want Audyssey Pro and I don't think that the Marantz supports it.


----------



## ldgibson76




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18063134
> 
> 
> ld -
> 
> 
> Yes, $5500 is crazy for an AVR, but I've got connections and can get it for substantially less than that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I considered the Marantz combo, and I may still go there, but I want Audyssey Pro and I don't think that the Marantz supports it.



That is true, the Marantz also lacks the installer option. An I do understand the attraction to the 5308. It's a beast and has everything! Hey, if you have the hook up, then by all means, go for it man!










Regards,


----------



## hifisponge

Ever see those beautifully intricat and time consuming "Mandala" sand sculptures that Buddhist monks make? They will work weeks on these things only to destroy it in the end.


Like this:
http://www.ackland.org/art/exhibitio...nstruction.htm 


While I'm not that Zen, my choice to dismantle the Wilson Benesch/Classe system feels kinda like what those monks do.


----------



## ldgibson76

Hello Tim.


Now that's an interesting analogy! Only you would come up with the Buddhist Monk creativity/destruction comparison.







Clever!


Is that you and your daughter in the last photo?


I do have a speaker question for you. So you think you will go with floorstanders for your fronts this time or stick to the bookshelf approach. And whichever you decide, are the Paradigm Sigs being considered?


Regards,


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ldgibson76* /forum/post/18070086
> 
> 
> Hello Tim.
> 
> 
> Now that's an interesting analogy! Only you would come up with the Buddhist Monk creativity/destruction comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clever!
> 
> 
> Is that you and your daughter in the last photo?
> 
> 
> I do have a speaker question for you. So you think you will go with floorstanders for your fronts this time or stick to the bookshelf approach. And whichever you decide, is the Paradigm Sigs being considered?
> 
> 
> Regards,



Hey ld -


Those photos were borrowed from a web site that covered the process of creating that Mandala. Those are just two random people in the last pic.










I'm done with floorstanding speakers. Don't need a full range speaker because I always us a sub, and large speakers visually dominate my room anyway. I did the big-ass speaker thing, just like I did the big-ass amp thing because I wanted to see for myself if they provided a big-ass sound. As it turns out, there is no correlation between the size of the speaker and the size of the soundstage. The Paradigm S4's and the WBs both did a great job of projecting a room-filling sound (when complimented by a sub) and those two speakers did a better job in that area than many of the larger speakers I tried.


I would gladly own a set of Paradigms again, but I want to try something different. So I've got a pair of these on order to try out.


----------



## dmw16




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/17474801
> 
> 
> Yep, those are it. Not much change, but just teasing you. I am waiting for the active crossover to arrive in the mail, and then it's time to fire them up...
> 
> 
> I should have gotten a Kuro when it was still available.



I know this post is a little old now, but for whatever it may be worth it's still possible to get a 9G Pioneer with some effort. I picked one up from Best Buy a few weeks ago - just gotta ask (then ask for a big discount)










hifi,


Great setup! I am fairly new to this hobby, but you obviously have put in tons of time and effort and it's something for the rest of us to aspire too. I showed your setup to the wife and she even liked the acoustic treatment! Well done, sir.


----------



## hifisponge

dmw -


Glad you like my work.










The acoustic cloud is a nice WAF frinedly option for room treatment isn't it.


Good luck on building your future dream system.


----------



## dmw16




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18070810
> 
> 
> dmw -
> 
> 
> Glad you like my work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The acoustic cloud is a nice WAF frinedly option for room treatment isn't it.
> 
> 
> Good luck on building your future dream system.



Thanks, I may just come rummage thru your shed looking for gear










Right now I am "stuck" with a 2.1 setup w/ some Rocket RS450's and a BIC H-100 sub. Very pedestrian by standards of this forum (although I do have a Pioneer PRO-101FD







). But knowing myself I suspect I'll fall victim to the bug very soon.


Best of luck with your new setup.


----------



## Bigred7078

Let us know how you like the Cantons!


----------



## Fanaticalism




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigred7078* /forum/post/18070949
> 
> 
> let us know how you like the cantons!



+1


----------



## hifisponge

Will do guys. A pair of the Reference 9.2's are in route and are expected to arrive on Wed. This is just a test run. If they make the grade, then I'll order up another pair for the surrounds, a set of stands and a center.


Ordered the Denon AVR5308 today as well, but that is a couple of weeks out from being delivered.


----------



## Djoel

I have'nt read the whole thread yet. I'm at work, but are the JL leaving as well?











DJoel


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/18094071
> 
> 
> I have'nt read the whole thread yet. I'm at work, but are the JL leaving as well?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DJoel



Nope. The JL and the Kuro stay. They cannot be beat in their respective fields, IME. You could get JL performance for less money in a much bigger box, but I'm thrilled that I get such big sub performance out of a 15" cube. And the Kuro is still the panel to beat when it comes to black level and overall picture accuracy. And I got them at such a good price, that selling them off would mean getting less performance for the same outlay.


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18095076
> 
> 
> Nope. The JL and the Kuro stay. They cannot be beat in their respective fields, IME. You could get JL performance for less money in a much bigger box, but I'm thrilled that I get such big sub performance out of a 15" cube. And the Kuro is still the panel to beat when it comes to black level and overall picture accuracy. And I got them at such a good price, that selling them off would mean getting less performance for the same outlay.




Gotcha, on both accounts..And I know very well what your saying, being that I own a Pio, and the JL.


Cool then, carry on folks










Djoel


----------



## hifisponge

Well, the first pair of Canton Ref 9.2s arrived today. I went through 20 or so of my reference songs, and they give a very strong showing right out of the gate. I don't want to jump to any conclusions, as it can take me a little while to settle into the sound of a new set of speakers, but here is the list of pros and cons as they stand at the moment.


Pro:

*Really nice treble. Finely detailed but not bright or zingy, and no excess sibilance.

*Expansive soundstage. These are right up there with the WBs or the Paradigm Sigs I used to own, which were the ones to beat in this area.

*Just about perfect tonal balance from top to bottom. Not bass heavy, not thin, not bright. Maybe a touch forward through the mids, but never aggressive.

*"Open" midrange. Good presence on vocals without sounding forced or forward

*Surprisingly full, and extended bass response. And here I was worried that a single 6.5" driver would sound a bit thin, especially coming from a German speaker maker, which have typically been on the lean and bright side IME.


Cons:

*Slightly metallic / granular sound in the upper mids.

* A bit of chestiness on certain songs through the lower mids (however I was able to reduce this by raising the height of the speakers, so it seems to be room related).

*Bass is not the tightest I've heard, but not wooly or flabby by any means. I may also be able to be improve this with placement.


I have to say that the Cantons have put on a better first impression than several of the much more expensive speakers that came before the WBs.


Now, let's see how they sound once I've lived with them for a little while.


These have to be the crappiest pics I've taken of new gear, but I didn't want to breakout the tripod and this way you get to experience the whole thing just like I am ... including my make-shift stands made from scrap wood and using old towels to protect the bottom of the speakers.







Like a home remodel, it always looks worse before it gets better.


Better pics to come if I choose to keep them and I get the stands.









*Full frontal*









*Ceramic tweet*









*Sweet custom stands*


----------



## kevon27

Hifisponge.. Seriously, I think you should seek help for your addiction. This is NOT healthy.

What was once a passion has now grown into a monster. I'm not joking or trying to dis you in any kinda way dude.

I am seeing some of your over obsessive traits in myself and I had to cut it off.

I cannot afford the high end gear you can but I've upgraded receivers, speakers when I really did not have to.

Trying to find the right sound will be a never ending quest.

Dude, you have gone through so much high end speakers and you are still not satisfied.

Hmm.. How about building your own speaker (from the woofers, cabinets, crossover,etc). But doing that in itself may start another addiction.


----------



## thenish03

Hifi, do you mind telling us what some of your reference material songs are?


Nish


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thenish03* /forum/post/18109177
> 
> 
> Hifi, do you mind telling us what some of your reference material songs are?
> 
> 
> Nish



I'll put a list together tonight and post it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevon27* /forum/post/18106962
> 
> 
> Hifisponge.. Seriously, I think you should seek help for your addiction. This is NOT healthy.
> 
> What was once a passion has now grown into a monster. I'm not joking or trying to dis you in any kinda way dude.
> 
> I am seeing some of your over obsessive traits in myself and I had to cut it off.
> 
> I cannot afford the high end gear you can but I've upgraded receivers, speakers when I really did not have to.
> 
> Trying to find the right sound will be a never ending quest.
> 
> Dude, you have gone through so much high end speakers and you are still not satisfied.
> 
> Hmm.. How about building your own speaker (from the woofers, cabinets, crossover,etc). But doing that in itself may start another addiction.



Kevon -


Please don't hold back. Tell me how you really feel.










I totally get what you are saying, and I won't argue with you that I have been an obsessive perfectionist spun out of control over the past two years. But I'm all better now, really.










In all seriousness, and in my defense, if you look back at the last few pages, you'll see that I'm actually trying to be more level headed and practical about the hobby. My choice to change gear this time around is not because I'm disatisfied. I love the way the WB / Classe combo sounds. But after hearing a friend's system, that I helped pick out, that consists of a pair of NHT Classic Two's, being powered by a $500 Denon AVR, I had to re-evaluate the my need for $40,000+ in AV gear. I was so impressed by his inexpensive system that it brought me back down to earth.


I knew going into my last round of high-end gear purchases that I was paying as much or more for the cabinet, the exclusivity and the name, as I was for the sound quality. And ironically, I only went through so many high-end speakers because I was astonished at how bad so many of them sounded (to me). The high-end speaker market is a very tricky beast because I get the impression that having a distinct "house sound" is more important than accuracy.


I'm not saying that I won't switch out my speakers again in a year or two, but I'm doing everything I can to avoid going through a half dozen speakers each time I'd like a change. I learned more than ever over the past two years, that no speaker is perfect and every speaker imparts its own character on the sound. But I don't think that there is anything wrong with wanting a change once in a while.


Thanks for your input.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thenish03* /forum/post/18109177
> 
> 
> Hifi, do you mind telling us what some of your reference material songs are?
> 
> 
> Nish



Below is the list grabbed from my iTunes playlist of reference songs. I've briefly described what I listen for (in parentheses) after each track title.


No Ordinary Love 7:22 Sade - The Best Of Sade (natural, smooth vocals. Deep, warm bass)


Universal Traveler 4:22 Talkie Walkie Air (this song has a bottle or a block that is struck throughout that has a lovely resonance and sense of space around it, the bass is also very deep. If the bass is missing, strangely, the strike of the bottle can sound a little stripped of harmonics)


Svevende 4:59 :rarum VIII Bobo Stenson (This is a minimalist Jazz recording from the 70's. Close-mic'd cymbals should sound real. The alto sax is quite dynamic and should almost make you wince when he puts some energy into the instrument, but it shouldn't sound shrill.)


Lost Like The Wind At Night 5:23 Unmarked Road Doug MacLeod (A man with a steel guitar. His voice is raspy and dynamic. Can easily turn harsh on some speakers. The details of his guitar playing is also captured wonderfully. Should sound real.)


Almost Blue 4:05 The Girl In The Other Room Diana Krall (Listen mainly for vocal quality and for midrange presence.)


Angel 4:30 Surfacing Sarah McLachlan (Amazing sense of space on this one. Should sound like you are in a church hall listening to her play. Close mic'd piano has remarkable weight in the lower notes played.)


Top Of The World 4:42 Brandy - The Best of Brandy (Vocals can sound bright and harsh on some speakers.)


Till It Happens To You 4:39 Corinne Bailey Rae Corinne Bailey Rae (This female vocalist's voice rides a fine line between soulful and shrill. Certain high notes in her singing will highlight problems in the upper midrange / treble of a speaker.)


The Ubiquitous Mr. Lovegrove 6:17 Into The Labyrinth Dead Can Dance (Recorded in a church, this Goth-ish track is another great test for judging soundstage size. The male vocalist can also sound overly raspy on many speakers and the wind instrument / horn can become shrill.)


Dreams 4:16 The Very Best Of Fleetwood Mac Fleetwood Mac (Another high quality recording from the 70's, before all Rock was compressed within an inch of its life. Listen for separation of the musical elements, vocal quality, detail, and dynamics. Cymbal hits should be faint but detailed, with an occasionally dynamic splash. This one can sound overly bright on lean sounding speakers.)


Last Night 4:47 Justified Justin Timberlake (This one is more just for fun, though his voice can sound shrill and thin if the speaker highlights the presence region. Sibilance can also be a problem.)


Fever 3:52 Michael Bublé Michael Bublé (Not the best recording, as it tends to sound a bit granular on speakers with good detail retrieval. But it is a good test for midrange coloration, as his voice can sound aggressive on the high notes on some speakers.)


Don't Know Why 3:06 Come Away With Me Norah Jones (This is a recording that can be a bit aggressive through the midrange on many speakers, but if the speaker isn't brash in its presentation, it goes from aggressive to pleasingly present and dynamic.)


Frederic Chopin: Scherzo in b-flat, 9:49 Stereophile Test (Disc 1)

Stereophile (Listen mainly for how the speaker handles the dynamic swings in this one.)


Acoustic Drum Solo 3:39 Stereophile Test Disc 2 Stereophile (listen for definition in the cymbals and dynamics throughout. Need to turn this one up though.)


Acoustic Guitar Solo 3:08 Stereophile Test Disc 2 Stereophile (Naturaly mic'd and mixed. Should sound real.)


Temptation 4:28 The Girl In The Other Room Diana Krall (Same as the other dianna Krall track. Listen mainly for naturalness of vocals.)


Liszt: Les Préludes, S 97 17:06 Bolero! - Orchestral Fireworks Eiji Oue; Minnesota Orchestra (Another one for testing dynamics.)


Come Away With Me 3:18 Come Away With Me Norah Jones (Same as the other Norah track. Can sound forward and aggressive on many speakers.)


Golden Rain 5:16 :rarum VIII Bobo Stenson (Same as the other Bobo Stenson track. Should sound real, with excellent detail.)


Whew!


Hope that helps.


----------



## CorboDuze

Sponge,


"Elegance is the attribute of being unusually effective and simple"


I believe you are now in a quest for hi-fidelity elegance.


Am I wrong?


Cheers,


Korboduze


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/18117436
> 
> 
> Sponge,
> 
> 
> "Elegance is the attribute of being unusually effective and simple"
> 
> 
> I believe you are now in a quest for hi-fidelity elegance.
> 
> 
> Am I wrong?
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> Korboduze



Yes, elegance as you have described it is certainly a strong consideration, as is value.


----------



## thenish03




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18109771
> 
> 
> I'll put a list together tonight and post it.



Much appreciated, since I am fairly new to the hobby its good to understand what individuals try and listen for when testing out speakers/gear.


Thanks,

Nish


----------



## osofast240sx

what setup is next?


----------



## Fanaticalism

Guess it is safe to say the Cantons did not make the cut.


----------



## hifisponge

Canton's out, now a two month wait to see how the new B&W 805 Diamond speakers sound.


----------



## ldgibson76

Hello Tim!


I'm not going to start with you because you know that I know what's going to happen. The same thing that happened before!





















The swap out of 20 different sets of speakers! (You see, I can't help myself, I started!







). And you can say what you want, but you my friend, are jaded! The Wilson-Benesch's have for intents and purposes have spoiled you. Unconsciously, the WB's have set the standard. It's sound quality has been burned/imprinted in your snapses! Tim, face it! You're done! Scarred for life!














For you, objectivity is but a distant memory!










So I want to make a suggestion. While you're waitng the for the Diamonds to be released, Kef has a very nice line up also. As a matter of fact, their Reference series is pretty impressive.


Enter the Kef Reference 201 Full range Bookshelf speakers.

http://www.kef.com/us/Loudspeakers/Reference/201 










Granted, not the most efficient speakers out there, but that has never been a concern for you. Then again, you didn't have a Denon AVR pushing your WB's either! I really do not think that 5308 would have a problem powering the 201's though.










By the way, aren't the Diamonds floorstanders, or is there a bookshelf model in the lineup?


Regards,


----------



## Bigred7078




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ldgibson76* /forum/post/18147923
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, aren't the Diamonds floorstanders, or is there a bookshelf model in the lineup?
> 
> 
> Regards,



B&W recently announced a "new" 800 series lineup called 800 Diamond. Now every speaker in the 800 series has a diamond tweeter. They also added piano black as a finish option.


----------



## mpmct

I can't help but wonder if those darn passive x-overs,

after all is said and done, are bugging our friend Tim.

If yes, I can relate.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ldgibson76* /forum/post/18147923
> 
> 
> Hello Tim!
> 
> 
> I'm not going to start with you because you know that I know what's going to happen. The same thing that happened before!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The swap out of 20 different sets of speakers! (You see, I can't help myself, I started!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). And you can say what you want, but you my friend, are jaded! The Wilson-Benesch's have for intents and purposes have spoiled you. Unconsciously, the WB's have set the standard. It's sound quality has been burned/imprinted in your snapses! Tim, face it! You're done! Scarred for life!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For you, objectivity is but a distant memory!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I want to make a suggestion. While you're waitng the for the Diamonds to be released, Kef has a very nice line up also. As a matter of fact, their Reference series is pretty impressive.
> 
> 
> Enter the Kef Reference 201 Full range Bookshelf speakers.
> 
> http://www.kef.com/us/Loudspeakers/Reference/201
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Granted, not the most efficient speakers out there, but that has never been a concern for you. Then again, you didn't have a Denon AVR pushing your WB's either! I really do not think that 5308 would have a problem powering the 201's though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, aren't the Diamonds floorstanders, or is there a bookshelf model in the lineup?
> 
> 
> Regards,



I wouldn't argue with you, except... if you remember, I still enjoy the "premium" sound system in my BMW (only cost $1500), and I also really enjoy the Monitor Audio Radius system in my game room (about $2000 for five speakers and a sub). If I can enjoy the sound coming from those two comparatively inexpensive systems, I'm sure that I can find something less expensive than the WBs that will float my boat. Sure, I may go through a few speakers to get there, but I never said I was getting out of the hobby, or that I would settle for something I didn't like, I'm just taking the whole thing down several notches in cost.










The main reason I'm still playing in the league of the B&Ws, which ain't cheap by any stretch of the imagination, is because I still value aesthetics and build quality as much as sound quality. And because I know people that know people that will take the sting out of the $5000 / pair price tag.










The KEFs are on my short list, but I'm a bit apprehensive about them. I didn't care for the Ref 203 V1's I used to own, and the word on the street is that the new Kef refs sound very similar to the last version.


Wish me luck.


----------



## ldgibson76

Hello BigRed.


Thanks for the update and clarification. My bad.







I assumed Tim was waiting for the Signature model to be available.











I now undertand that "Diamond" is the name of the new tweeter technology and is available in the 800 series.


Thanks for the head's up.


Regards


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mpmct* /forum/post/18148281
> 
> 
> I can't help but wonder if those darn passive x-overs,
> 
> after all is said and done, are bugging our friend Tim.
> 
> If yes, I can relate.



Hey mp -


What is it that bugs you about the sound of passive x-overs? Let's see if it matches up with what I commonly hear.


----------



## Bigham16

I am lost for words on your amazing set up. Great job and thanks for all the helpful information. Just stunning!


----------



## mpmct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18148327
> 
> 
> Hey mp -
> 
> 
> What is it that bugs you about the sound of passive x-overs? Let's see if it matches up with what I commonly hear.



It's that pain near the top end Tim, near the x-over point

for many loudspeakers. It's just hashy to my ears, and wears me out.

But no wonder, it's full of distortion, by definition.


Here we go, from another forum ...


"A while ago on this forum there was some discussion about loudspeaker crossover networks and the relative merits of the active and passive approach.* This prompted me to investigate passive crossovers further.

First, some background:


Loudspeaker drive units are designed to be driven by a very low impedance, and the published frequency response plots from the manufacturer will always be shown with the drive unit driven directly from an amplifier, without any intermediate crossover network.* If the driving impedance is not low, the response will be adversely affected, and the amplifier will lose control over the speaker cone motion.* The degree of control is termed 'damping' and is defined by a 'damping factor', which is simply the ratio of the nominal speaker impedance (usually 8 ohms) to the driving impedance.* So for example, an amplifier having an output impedance of 0.5 ohms would have a damping factor of 16.


Amplifier designers generally strive to achieve a damping factor of 50 or more, and for good ones it can be several 100s.* But what happens when you insert a passive crossover network in between the amplifier output and the speaker drive units ?


The effect of the passive crossover :

To quantify this, we need to establish the impedance of the crossover network output, since this becomes the new driving impedance for the speaker unit.* The plot below shows this impedance for a 2nd order passive Linkwitz-Riley crossover network with a crossover frequency of 2kHz.


As you can see, over most of the audio band the impedance is not very low, reaching a maximum value of 8 ohms at the 2kHz crossover frequency.* By calculating the ratio of this impedance to 8 ohms, we can establish the effective damping factor when the crossover network is in circuit.* This is shown in the plot below.


At 30Hz, the damping factor is a just about tolerable 34, but it drops sharply as the frequency is increased, dropping to less than 2 right from 500Hz to over 7kHz.* At the 2kHz crossover frequency the damping factor is just 1 !


So what does this mean ?

The results show that a typical passive crossover has an absolutely disastrous effect on speaker damping.* Over most of the audio band, the damping factor is very low, so the amplifier will have almost no control over the cone movement at all.* Were it not for the mechanical self damping in the drive unit suspension, the cone would be flapping around wildly.* As it is, the cone movement will certainly not be accurately following the applied signal voltage from the amplifier.


What about active crossovers ?

With an active speaker, the crossover network is connected at the amplifier inputs, and the amplifier outputs drive the speaker drive units directly.* In this case, the excellent damping factor of the amplifiers is maintained, and the cone motion is accurately controlled at all frequencies.* In the past, the main argument against the active speaker approach has been the cost.* But these days, power transistors are cheap, so there really is no excuse !


........


I must say that when you look into it as we have in considerable detail, you just keep asking yourself why anyone would even consider passive speakers, they are a horrendous bodge!


A passive crossover produces about 1% distortion and an active one 0.001%, so that's a no brainer too.

The problem probably is that non technical audiophiles are persuaded that in order to find true system synergy they must accumulate the different parts of an audio system from different companies who are best at each of these. It's arrant nonsense but it has give dealers and magazines scope for "building systems" and selling endless upgrades, something I suspect that enthusiasts will be reluctant to give up on.


I'm very glad that a non audio industry scientist has presented the facts ...


I do agree that passive speakers can sound pleasant and there is a place for them, but not for hi end if we agree that the highest possible sound quality is the goal.


..........


Active crossovers normally use a 4th order Linkwitz-Riley response, since this gives large attenuation in the frequency ranges where the drivers can 'misbehave', but also has quite a benign transient response due to the low Q (0.5).* Another property of this type of filter is that the output from the two drivers is precisely in-phase at all frequencies, so the polar pattern (and hence imaging) is stable.


Although it is possible to implement such 4th order filters in a passive crossover, component tolerancing is a nightmare, and you also need to accurately correct for the frequency dependent impedance of the drive units.* With active filters, on the other hand, it is easy to obtain very accurate 'textbook' responses.


........


Yes, damping at bass frequencies is important because the cone motion is largest there.* But you can see that the damping factor is still quite poor even at low frequencies.* The biggest difference is at or near the crossover frequency, where the damping is almost non-existent so the cone/dome motion will be completely uncontrolled.


Changing the amplifier power won't really make any difference because the amplifier's output impedance will normally be very low (few milli ohms).* It will be swamped by the effect of the passive crossover network."


..........


And finally, quoting Linkwitz ...


"Crossovers may be implemented either as passive RLC networks, as active filters with operational amplifier circuits or with DSP engines and software. The only excuse for passive crossovers is their low cost. Their behavior changes with the signal level dependent dynamics of the drivers. They block the power amplifier from taking maximum control over the voice coil motion. They are a waste of time, if accuracy of reproduction is the goal.


SL - October 2009"


......


I've heard most of it Tim, although I've owned only half the loudspeakers

you have, over the last 30 years. Who hasn't?







( Kidding! )

Transducer technology, cabinet claims, just never cut it for me. I don't buy it, not anymore. I think those things are stop-gap and unique selling points, and they don't solve the real issue.

Just MHO, YMMV, I respect other opinions, etc etc.


----------



## ldgibson76

Well Tim, you asked for it!
























Excellent post mpmct. Very informative and enlightening.

So according to the post and Linkwitz, when it comes to speakers/crossovers, we've all been sold a bill of goods!







That's just great!










Regards.


----------



## vantagesc

I don't pretend to understand all the technical issues. However, when a guy who co-invented the Linkwitz-Riley filter makes such a strong statement (passives are "a waste of time"), it gets me thinking. From a marketing perspective, it also makes total sense why passive crossovers have persisted. The mere notion of needing so many channels of amplification is dizzying to some people. How much does 32 channels of Classe amplification cost anyway?










The fact that this upper midrange harshness has existed in so many of the speakers you guys have heard is telling. I'm not entirely sure that all of them had metal drivers either, so that's not necessarily the cause.


I do know that when you hear a speaker that is so integrated that you don't know when the midrange leaves off and the tweeter picks up, it's pretty special. It's like a certain amount of tension in the recording is just gone.


----------



## mpmct

ldgibson76, I don't know about the bill of goods part, but

yes, I am suspicious ... Particularly when I visit my local

pro-audio friends' shop, and listen to their M-Audio and Genelec active

monitors -- the ones many of the doods use to mix and master the music

we listen to through passive x-overs. It does give me pause, being

the suspicious type. "Trust everyone, but cut the cards."

Assumption ... pro-audio loudspeaker systems, not quite as good as consumer

loudspeakers systems? Wait just a minute, lemme get this straight!


----------



## mpmct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18148804
> 
> 
> i don't pretend to understand all the technical issues. However, when a guy who co-invented the linkwitz-riley filter makes such a strong statement (passives are "a waste of time"), it gets me thinking. From a marketing perspective, it also makes total sense why passive crossovers have persisted. The mere notion of needing so many channels of amplification is dizzying to some people. How much does 32 channels of classe amplification cost anyway? :d
> 
> 
> the fact that this upper midrange harshness has existed in so many of the speakers you guys have heard is telling. I'm not entirely sure that all of them had metal drivers either, so that's not necessarily the cause.
> 
> 
> I do know that when you hear a speaker that is so integrated that you don't know when the midrange leaves off and the tweeter picks up, it's pretty special. It's like a certain amount of tension in the recording is just gone.



+1


----------



## ldgibson76




> Quote:
> Assumption ... pro-audio loudspeaker systems, not quite as good as consumer
> 
> loudspeakers systems? Wait just a minute, lemme get this straight!



Like I said, A bill of goods!


Regards,


----------



## mpmct

Now we get down to it. This will cause all sorts of consternation

and gnashing of teeth. Just you watch. There's a whole lot of turf

we've just infiltrated, and a whole lot of belief systems, and a lot of

bottom lines. Duck.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mpmct* /forum/post/18148506
> 
> 
> It's that pain near the top end Tim, near the x-over point for many loudspeakers. It's just hashy to my ears, and wears me out. But no wonder, it's full of distortion, by definition.



That description lines up with what I hear, but I suspect, like many things in this world, there is more than one path to a given destination.



> Quote:
> Loudspeaker drive units are designed to be driven by a very low impedance...
> 
> 
> The effect of the passive crossover :
> 
> The results show that a typical passive crossover has an absolutely disastrous effect on speaker damping.* Over most of the audio band, the damping factor is very low, so the amplifier will have almost no control over the cone movement at all.
> 
> 
> Yes, damping at bass frequencies is important because the cone motion is largest there.* But you can see that the damping factor is still quite poor even at low frequencies.* The biggest difference is at or near the crossover frequency, where the damping is almost non-existent so the cone/dome motion will be completely uncontrolled.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18148804
> 
> 
> The fact that this upper midrange harshness has existed in so many of the speakers you guys have heard is telling. I'm not entirely sure that all of them had metal drivers either, so that's not necessarily the cause.



I've certainly considered "cross-over distortion" as a possible cause for the problems I heard in so many speakers, but if the general idea here is that the distortion is caused by a lack of amp control due to high impedance in the cross-over region, lets take a look at the impedance plots of some of the the speakers I've owned. The solid line at the bottom of each chart is the impedance vs. frequency plot.


*These sound fine through the upper mids / lower treble:*


Revel Studio2










Vienna Acoustics Mozart










Paradigm S2 (I owned S4, but crossover is the same)










*These bothered me through the upper mids / lower treble:*


Focal Electra 1037Be










Monitor Audio Platinum PL100 (I owned the 300's, so this impedance plot may not represent the the sort of impedance swings in the model I owned.)










KEF Reference 207 (I owned 203's, but crossover from mid to tweet is the same)










You'll notice that the impedance rises significantly through the crossover point in all of the speakers. Some sounded fine, some didn't. I also have to say that at the crossover frequency, the cone excursions are so small, that it could very well be that all that is needed is the suspension to keep the driver in control. I'm not saying it is so, but just thinking logically, I'm not sold on the idea that damping factor is a big deal in the upper mids and treble.


My thinking is that the problems I heard could be the result of a variety of causes, unique to each speaker. Distortion from crossing over the tweeter too low, resonances / break-up in the top of the midrange's pass band creeping through, too much overlap between the drivers at the cross-over, a hump through the presence region, cross-over distortion, overcooked recordings, a personal sensitivity to a particular frequency range, etc.


So we are right back where we started, with the only answer to all of this being to let our ears guide us, while at the same time doing our best to keep from being seduced by how pretty and expensive the box looks.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bigred7078* /forum/post/18148088
> 
> 
> B&W recently announced a "new" 800 series lineup called 800 Diamond. Now every speaker in the 800 series has a diamond tweeter. They also added piano black as a finish option.



For anyone curious as to my choice to try out the new 805Di's, here's the short backstory.


I've been in the hobby for the better part of 15 years, so I'm not easily impressed anymore. I can count on one hand the number of speakers that have left an impression on me in the past 5 years, and I've listened to just about every well-known speaker brand and a good number of the obscure ones too.


One speaker that was added to the list just last year is the B&W Signature Diamond. What a wonderfully balanced, expansive, resolving, and natural sounding speaker. And it has no right to have the bass extension it does for just a single 7" mid/woof.


Several people that have heard the Sig Diamond's have also said that the 805Di is in the same league. I hope this means that the 805Di has mids and highs that match the Sig, without the bass extension (due to the smaller cabinet). If so, I will have found my next set of speakers. And likely ones I will own for more than a week.










BTW - I'm very happy to see that they finally updated the styling of the line. It was looking rather dated.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18151478
> 
> 
> I can count on one hand the number of speakers that have left an impression on me in the past 5 years...



Hi Tim.


Just curious as to what speakers left such an impression.


Sorry to hear the Cantons didn't do it for you.







Well, bring on the 805Di's


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/18151603
> 
> 
> Hi Tim.
> 
> 
> Just curious as to what speakers left such an impression.
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear the Cantons didn't do it for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, bring on the 805Di's



Hey Waboman -


(in order of preference)

High End

B&W Signature Diamond

B&W 802N

Wilson Sophia (paired with Acoustic Research flagship gear)

Dali Helicon 800

Wilson Benesch

Focal Utopia Mini

Dynaudio Special 25

Linn Akurate

Good Value

Paradigm Signature

Vienna Acoustics

Monitor Audio GS

Era D5

NHT Classic series


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18151336
> 
> 
> You'll notice that the impedance rises significantly through the crossover point in all of the speakers. Some sounded fine, some didn't. I also have to say that at the crossover frequency, the cone excursions are so small, that it could very well be that all that is needed is the suspension to keep the driver in control. I'm not saying it is so, but just thinking logically, I'm not sold on the idea that damping factor is a big deal in the upper mids and treble.



I agree that damping factor isn't the only factor at play here. It's also driver resonances and poor driver selection. I don't know if the suspension is enough damping at high frequencies or not.

_Edited: See post #228 below_


Given what you can do with active crossovers, it seems like even if the problem isn't caused directly by the passive crossover, some of the problems with certain speakers with resonances etc could have been solved with active. It's not a magic elixir, but from the start, a passive speaker seems handicapped. Not to mention the amp power that gets wasted in a passive system.



> Quote:
> ...while at the same time doing our best to keep from being seduced by how pretty and expensive the box looks.



I feel that way about cars.







That's also the reason I won't sell my PL100s and will use them as surrounds. It seems like you keep going down the same path over and over. Pretty speaker that you ultimately don't like. Been there, done that. Time to try something different IMO! Heck, try some JBL Arrays or something. A duck is a duck is a duck.


B&Ws may end up being fine speakers if they don't bug you over time. There are plenty of good sounding passives, but I figure you might as well try something new. You've tried everything else.


----------



## Emig5m

So for using active crossovers you would need a dedicated amp channel _per driver?_







That's probably the problem right there why something like that hasn't taken off mainstream if it's actually better... So for my 5 channels in my 5.1 system I would need 13 channels of amplification!







(3 3-ways up front, and 2 2-ways in the back).


Now I remember someone mentioning somewhere else that the problem with active crossovers is that they don't take into account things such as phasing/time alignment tweaks built into the factory passive crossover. That might not be exactly the wording, but I remember something said along those lines that theirs tweaks build into the factory crossover that the active crossover wouldn't take into account.


Now the million dollar AVS question (ahem)....lol....has anyone done a double blind test with active vs passive crossovers?


----------



## mpmct

Active crossover designs have been around for a long time.


As a matter of fact, John Bowers actives, from circa the '70s ( I think ) ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1125102 


Most pro-audio loudspeaker systems are active design.

Actives require significantly less power though more channels of it.

If the amps are designed and built along with the speaker design, it's a win-win situation. Kind of like having BMW go ahead and build and install the motor on your new 6 series convertible, rather tthan shopping around for one after taking delivery without the motor. So hard to find a motor with

... 'synergy'. ( just poking a little fun at all us audiophools with that. )


The audible difference between active line-level design, vs passive,

is one of those 'that's pretty clearly evident' things, in my experience.

It's not like wondering if those silver interconnects actually sound different -- do I hear it, or do I not?


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Emig5m* /forum/post/18153286
> 
> 
> So for using active crossovers you would need a dedicated amp channel _per driver?_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's probably the problem right there why something like that hasn't taken off mainstream if it's actually better... So for my 5 channels in my 5.1 system I would need 13 channels of amplification!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (3 3-ways up front, and 2 2-ways in the back).
> 
> 
> Now I remember someone mentioning somewhere else that the problem with active crossovers is that they don't take into account things such as phasing/time alignment tweaks built into the factory passive crossover. That might not be exactly the wording, but I remember something said along those lines that theirs tweaks build into the factory crossover that the active crossover wouldn't take into account.
> 
> 
> Now the million dollar AVS question (ahem)....lol....has anyone done a double blind test with active vs passive crossovers?



1. Yes, you need a single channel of amplification per driver generally, but my active speakers have two tweeters running in parallel off of one channel. Suitable 8-channel amps that will run a stereo pair of speakers can be found for well under $1k. It does take more space though. Some active speakers are also self-powered though, so the amp is inside the speaker cabinet.


2. Not really true. That only happens when you take a passive speaker, remove the factory crossover, and try to make your own basic active crossover in an attempt to get true bi-amping or the like. An amateur trying to make an active crossover is going to get blown away by a professional making a passive one everytime. From the factory, the passive crossover is heavily optimized for the drivers used in that particular speaker. Amateurs often take some product like DEQX, input the same crossover points, and expect the results to be better. An active crossover does the same basic thing as a passive one, it just does it before the amplification. Time, phase, notching out resonances, etc. are all possible.


3. There are a few speakers that are available with both, but in some instances the comparisons aren't valid because the speaker was primarily designed as either passive or active, and less care went into the other version.


----------



## Emig5m




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18153490
> 
> 
> 1. Yes, you need a single channel of amplification per driver generally, but my active speakers have two tweeters running in parallel off of one channel. Suitable 8-channel amps that will run a stereo pair of speakers can be found for well under $1k. It does take more space though. Some active speakers are also self-powered though, so the amp is inside the speaker cabinet.
> 
> 
> 2. Not really true. That only happens when you take a passive speaker, remove the factory crossover, and try to make your own basic active crossover in an attempt to get true bi-amping or the like. An amateur trying to make an active crossover is going to get blown away by a professional making a passive one everytime. From the factory, the passive crossover is heavily optimized for the drivers used in that particular speaker. Amateurs often take some product like DEQX, input the same crossover points, and expect the results to be better. An active crossover does the same basic thing as a passive one, it just does it before the amplification. Time, phase, notching out resonances, etc. are all possible.
> 
> 
> 3. There are a few speakers that are available with both, but in some instances the comparisons aren't valid because the speaker was primarily designed as either passive or active, and less care went into the other version.



Oh, so I wouldn't be able to take my passive crossover speakers and turn them into active crossover speakers myself and gain the benefits. It would have to be done professionally with being designed from the factory to have an active crossover up front?


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Emig5m* /forum/post/18154151
> 
> 
> Oh, so I wouldn't be able to take my passive crossover speakers and turn them into active crossover speakers myself and gain the benefits. It would have to be done professionally with being designed from the factory to have an active crossover up front?



There are some DIY people that are really good at this stuff, so I wouldn't foreclose the possibility all together. But me for example...I would be much better off leaving the passive crossovers alone. It's not a matter of adjusting a few settings and calling it a day.


----------



## vantagesc

BTW, from some of the guys that are proponents of active over on HDD, some interesting notes about the new B&W Diamond series. The discussion is concerning why a lot of people far prefer 2-way speakers rather than 3-way speakers.

http://hddaudio.net/viewtopic.php?id=875&p=2 



> Quote:
> Crossover distortion isn't something most people hear. It's just what speakers sound like until you don't hear it. Get a really good pair of headphones and listen to them exclusively for a few months, then go back to your speakers. You'll hear it then.





> Quote:
> In general terms passive crossovers cause bass boom and a tendency to exaggerate or harden the treble region, so most of the people posting about either or noticing iPods are better are probably referring to speaker crossover distortion now that Amps and and DACs are pretty good.





> Quote:
> We've designed a lot of three way speakers passively to sell and actively for comparison and to learn. The problem is that the lower crossover is bang slap in the middle of the music, it's turning phase through 360 degrees (assuming order filters and worse if the driver roll offs are in the same place) and anything steeper than 2nd order isn't really practical, so not enough attenuation. The tweeter crossover tends to interact with the lower one and so the rolling off of both the tweeter and the bass driver add together to be audible under the mid driver and right through the mid range.
> 
> 
> We got results we were proud of and our three way speakers were incredibly clear and imaged beautifully, but customers did notice harshness. Although I think most of the Brios have remained with their original purchasers, several pairs of Trios have come on the market, possibly being replaced by ADMs, which probably shows listener fatigue.
> 
> *B & W* had obviously come to the same conclusion as us because they've managed to extend the upper frequencies of their mid to, I think about 4 kHz and use a very simple crossover on the tweeter *(none on the mid driver)* in their new Diamond Series. The may also have lowered the bottom crossover to at least stop the two interacting. I'll bet they are one of the best sounding, big three ways for this reason. However the Beolab's previously discussed could well better.
> 
> 
> I should have added that I think MM's Orions work as a three way because Linkwitz has the best place for the crossovers on the drivers he's chosen and they are 24 dB/Octave active which makes a huge difference.



YMMV of course, but interesting viewpoints.


----------



## Djoel

Hey Tim Denon is still on track? Should be interesting to hearing your thoughts with that combo.There's a guy around here who likes the Denon avr with his B&W 800D better than his Mark Levinson preamp amp system. Sure there is much more to this story, but the idea of multi thousand dollar system being bested by a mere receiver is just funny.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=djoel 



DJoel


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/18155195
> 
> 
> Hey Tim Denon is still on track? Should be interesting to hearing your thoughts with that combo.There's a guy around here who likes the Denon avr with his B&W 800D better than his Mark Levinson preamp amp system. Sure there is much more to this story, but the idea of multi thousand dollar system being bested by a mere receiver is just funny.
> 
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=djoel
> 
> 
> 
> DJoel



Yup, Denon AVR5308 is on order, but Denon is running low on inventory, so it will be another two weeks before I see it.


Interesting thread you posted. Sounds to me like their might be something defective with his ML gear.


To me, the vast majority (but not all) solid state gear sounds more similar than different. I thought the Classe brougt something special to the table, but I will never know for sure because I changed speakers at the same time.


I few years ago, there was a guy that posted that he was running his B&W 802's off of a Pansonic AVR that had a digital amp section, and he loved it. The Panasonic SA-XR57 I belive. You might remember that there was a good deal of buzz around the Panasonic when it first came out because it weighed all of 10 pounds, it cost less than $300, and many thought it sounded great.


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18156081
> 
> 
> Yup, Denon AVR5308 is on order, but Denon is running low on inventory, so it will be another two weeks before I see it.
> 
> 
> Interesting thread you posted. Sounds to me like their might be something defective with his ML gear.
> 
> 
> To me, the vast majority (but not all) solid state gear sounds more similar than different. I thought the Classe brougt something special to the table, but I will never know for sure because I changed speakers at the same time.
> 
> 
> I few years ago, there was a guy that posted that he was running his B&W 802's off of a Pansonic AVR that had a digital amp section, and he loved it. The Panasonic SA-XR57 I belive. You might remember that there was a good deal of buzz around the Panasonic when it first came out because it weighed all of 10 pounds, it cost less than $300, and many thought it sounded great.





Yeah I thought the same thing, that there might be some faulty equipment in is system and I'm sure the need of some good acoustics panel would help that room.


Funny you mention the panny digital receiver, I bought into all that buzz, and tried it..I got rid of it because it sounded like someone was pouring battery acid in my ears, well that's a slight exaggeration. Let just say it wasn't for me.










DJoel


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/18156227
> 
> 
> Yeah I thought the same thing, that there might be some faulty equipment in is system and I'm sure the need of some good acoustics panel would help that room.
> 
> 
> Funny you mention the panny digital receiver, I bought into all that buzz, and tried it..I got rid of it because it sounded like someone was pouring battery acid in my ears, well that's a slight exaggeration. Let just say it wasn't for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DJoel



LOL! What, you didn't like it? Battery acid in the ears is what all "true" audiophile aspire to attaining from their systems.


----------



## vantagesc

The ML amp might not be defective. Stereophile routinely calls them warmer than Parasound JC products. As a high-end product, it's entirely possible that they are voiced to sound pleasing. I suspect that the B&W owner is simply getting sound that is far too warm and muddy.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18156958
> 
> 
> The ML amp might not be defective. Stereophile routinely calls them warmer than Parasound JC products. As a high-end product, it's entirely possible that they are voiced to sound pleasing. I suspect that the B&W owner is simply getting sound that is far too warm and muddy.



Another viable possibility.


----------



## mpmct

I think if you look hard at the specs of most competent modern audio electronics,

you'll find that they've driven distortion levels way down past the audible.

And besides, one could buy a Hafler amp and/or preamp, circa 1990, that has more handsome specs

than Classe gear does today, in some cases. All this assumes that one prefers one's electronics to stay

out of the way, not have a 'signature' -- which used to be the aim of "Hi-Fi" --

as true as possible to the recording being reproduced. Cambridge Audio gear

has driven distortion maximums to insanely low levels, way past anything audible.

Another example of the sound of one hand clapping, the Benchmark DAC1,

and built-in preamp ...

http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index...Id=40&blogId=1 


If competent ( non-tweako, non-funky ) electronics make your system sound bad,

the transducers might well be the culprit.

The levels of distortion in most loudspeakers is vastly more than most competent electronics.

If you get into the rigamrole of every bit of a system having a sound signature, you're heavily into plate spinning, and all that goes with it.

There is no need to go through all that. But to each their own.


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18156737
> 
> 
> LOL! What, you didn't like it? Battery acid in the ears is what all "true" audiophile aspire to attaining from their systems.




I guess I'm no audiophile







Jeepers!



Djoel


----------



## pcweber111

Yeah I remember the whole Panny amp thing. A lot of audiophiles are sheep anyway and just latch on to whatever someone else is doing without considering their own situation. That's why brands like Lexicon can get away with selling an Oppo BD player at 8 times the cost. Same thing others swear pennies in the cabinets reduce distortion or elevating your cables off the ground on ceramic pads is a good idea. The high end is full of such B.S..


What I do agree with though is that speakers like those B&Ws deserve the best amps you can afford (within reason of course).


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18151682
> 
> 
> Hey Waboman -
> 
> 
> (in order of preference)
> 
> High End
> 
> B&W Signature Diamond
> 
> B&W 802N
> 
> Wilson Sophia (paired with Acoustic Research flagship gear)
> 
> Dali Helicon 800
> 
> Wilson Benesch
> 
> Focal Utopia Mini
> 
> Dynaudio Special 25
> 
> Linn Akurate
> 
> Good Value
> 
> Paradigm Signature
> 
> Vienna Acoustics
> 
> Monitor Audio GS
> 
> Era D5
> 
> NHT Classic series



Hi Tim.


That's an impressive list of speakers.







Thanks for taking the time and sharing this.


I've actually been toying (just toying) with upgrading my speakers. I've had them for quite awhile now, and I'm curious to try something new. I see you recommend the Sophia. Have you auditioned the Sasha? I believe they're in line, price wise, with the B&W 800D's.


Any experience with PMC speakers? I consistently read great things about them. But unfortunately, there's no dealer even remotely close to me.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/18158865
> 
> 
> Hi Tim.
> 
> 
> That's an impressive list of speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for taking the time and sharing this.
> 
> 
> I've actually been toying (just toying) with upgrading my speakers. I've had them for quite awhile now, and I'm curious to try something new. I see you recommend the Sophia. Have you auditioned the Sasha? I believe they're in line, price wise, with the B&W 800D's.
> 
> 
> Any experience with PMC speakers? I consistently read great things about them. But unfortunately, there's no dealer even remotely close to me.



Hello again -


Sorry, haven't heard the PMC personally, but I have a good friend that was very close to choosing the PB1i over the Wilson Benesch Discovery. He ultimately went with the WBs, but it was a very tough choice as they were, in his opinion, equals, just with different personalities.


I have to be honest, I think that the Acoustic Research front end contributed quite a bit to the positive experience I had with the Wilson Audio Sophia 2.


Take this for what it is worth, but good acquaintance of mine recently heard the new B&W 802 Diamond and he said that it was probably the most realistic sound he has ever heard. He's got quite a few years into this hobby, though he hasn't been quite as active in it as I have.


If you've got the room and the money for the 802 Diamonds (I don't), they should at least be on your audition list.


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pcweber111* /forum/post/18158432
> 
> 
> Yeah I remember the whole Panny amp thing. A lot of audiophiles are sheep anyway and just latch on to whatever someone else is doing without considering their own situation. That's why brands like Lexicon can get away with selling an Oppo BD player at 8 times the cost. Same thing others swear pennies in the cabinets reduce distortion or elevating your cables off the ground on ceramic pads is a good idea. The high end is full of such B.S..
> 
> 
> What I do agree with though is that speakers like those B&Ws deserve the best amps you can afford (within reason of course).






I'm running a pair of B&w N802 with an Emotiva XPA-2 with great results, mind you I hated many amps under the 2K mark..At the moment my Cary C5 is in shop, and it might be going on for sale if the differences are slight marginal.


I do agree there's plenty of BS in the high end market, or is it the hobby for those with compulsive disorder ?


DJoel


----------



## mpmct

You might find these articles helpful ...


This from a fellow who's had a hand in designing Cambridge Audio recent gear.

( Read the specs on some of their stuff, and compare to other manufacturers ) ...

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampin...o/subjectv.htm 


...........


Lots of useful science on this guy's site ...

http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm 


.........


( A/B testing requires almost exact level-matching.

A signal even a wee bit louder than another, will win every time. )


( FWIW, my local engineer friends who repair audio gear, who built passive x-overs

for hobby 30 years ago but who use active pro-audio gear exclusively now,

have advised that the most important issue with larger passive x-over set ups

is to have as much amp power as you can possibly get. It's the power that matters

in that case, much more than any other consideration. And reasonable specs too of course. )


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18151336
> 
> 
> You'll notice that the impedance rises significantly through the crossover point in all of the speakers.



Thanks to mpmct, I found an article the fully explains why the rising impedance of these crossover networks reduces the damping factor at these frequencies to almost nothing.

http://sound.westhost.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm 


Here is part of the conclusion:


> Quote:
> It must be understood that passive networks appear to be of sensibly low impedance from the amplifier's perspective, but behave entirely differently towards the driver's back-EMF. This seemingly contradictory situation is caused by the low output impedance of the amplifier, and this causes the impedance of the crossover filters to be asymmetrical (input-output vs. output-input).
> 
> 
> It is very apparent that with a passive crossover, things are not as we would like them to be. Each variant has problems, and as with all things, a passive crossover is a compromise. IMO, this is not a compromise I am willing to make, as the performance is too unpredictable - this explains why so many passive designs require a considerable amount of tweaking before they sound their best - and may still disappoint the listener in critical listening sessions.


----------



## HamburgCity

Hi Tim,


I see a lot has happened in your home cinema! So you sold all the WB speakers! Who would have thought...


By the way I find it curious that you are now considering B&W. I have compared B&W800D, 802D and 805 to WB Chimera, ACT and Arc and quite frankly found the B&W to have a lesser soundstage with more boxy sounding lower end (more monitor-like as opposed to musical engaging) compared to the Wilson Benesch driven by the same electronics. As a matter of fact the dealer who was selling both lines found the same to such an extent that now a few months later he has stopped selling B&W! All stereo customers allegedly went for Wilson Benesch after comparing the two. He only continues to sell the B&W inwalls for home cinema custom installation purposes.


Obvioulsy the new Diamon series may be such a massive improvement on the old D series that it changes everything but would it not have been cheaper to just keep the Arcs...?


In any case good luck with the new quest!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18160677
> 
> 
> Thanks to mpmct, I found an article the fully explains why the rising impedance of these crossover networks reduces the damping factor at these frequencies to almost nothing.
> 
> http://sound.westhost.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm
> 
> 
> Here is part of the conclusion:



That was my point to posting the impedance graphs for a few of the speakers I liked and didn't like. ALL of them have very high impedance (resulting in low damping) right between 1Khz and 3Khz. If low damping is the source of distortion in the cross-over region, then all of the speaker would have sounded bad. Some did, some didn't.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18165376
> 
> 
> That was my point to posting the impedance graphs for a few of the speakers I liked and didn't like. ALL of them have very high impedance (resulting in low damping) right between 1Khz and 3Khz. If low damping is the source of distortion in the cross-over region, then all of the speaker would have sounded bad. Some did, some didn't.



I understood that point, but it doesn't mean the drivers are performing as well as they could. And it's not just at the crossover frequency. Damping is lower at other places too, so you're giving up on control of the driver. Sounded fine to you...that's good! But it's an uphilll battle. Performance is left "on the table". This is like filling up your Ferrari with 87 octane. It'll run but you may have to retune the engine a little.


And of course this isn't the only problem. A lot of passive speakers also use lower order slopes and even if there are not problems from the lack of damping, the drivers are often asked to play in wider ranges than necessary. We've discussed this and seen this in many speakers. Furthermore, active allows improved transient response, higher dynamic range, increased output, reduced IM distortion, easier loads on the amps, and it might even be easier to do certain things like match sensitivities, notch out resonances, etc.


If performance is the objective, passives are a compromise. If a design is so well thought out that it can overcome some of these things, that's great, but some disadvantages cannot be overcome. You may think this is all B.S. and that's fine. The more I think about it, the only reason to use passives is convenience.


I understand for some this is like finding out that the tooth fairy is really your mother. At first you may deny it, but eventually you'll realize what's going on.


----------



## vantagesc

BTW, I am sorry for hijacking your thread.


----------



## mpmct

Tim, FWIW, more free advice: One of the best things I stumbled on

was a 'near flat' set of Shure in-ear phones. They're on Linkwitz' site

under link "Reference Earphones". Skip down to where he gets to the Shures.

That model is discontinued, but can be found on amazon usually for now

discount price -- cheap. Anyway, these little phones are crystal clear *and*

deadly smooth. No hash, no pain in listening to things like Miles' trumpet

or Joni Mitchell's voice when she reaches high. Those are just two random examples

of the audio range that I found unpleasant on lots of speakers,

and where I suspect you sometimes had some issues too with some speakers?

The phones have no crossovers of course, single drivers. So that's a clue I think.

Next, if there's a way to get your mitts on any decent pair of pro-audio

active xover monitors for home audition, might be worth it.

My local guys are M-Audio and Genelec dealers both, I've heard a handful

of either brand. They are very nice speakers, and free of that upper-mid pain,

as far as I have been able to tell in numerous lengthy listening sessions.

Some of them aren't what I'd call pretty to look at, but leaving that part

out of it ... just to have the chance, at home and at your leisure, to have

a listen and see what you think.


----------



## javry




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *plasmattack* /forum/post/16280830
> 
> 
> I thought about creating a video game room but I don't know if it would pass WAF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . When I get the PJ up later this summer I'm going to try gaming on it, not really sure what to expect there to be honest. I would imagine I will like it. If I ever do a separate gaming room I thought about the Klipsch Quintet III's for some smaller sound. I bet your monitors rock out in that room. That room looks awesome as well.
> 
> 
> That is too bad on the shelf sizes but they're worth it either way. The look is real tight and clean. The minimalist in me has been bearing his head lately seeing all of these clean and streamlined systems. If we end up staying in this house a little longer while the economy shapes up maybe I will build in some shelves. Your setup really has my wheels turning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



I know I'm late to this thread but wow! the setup is great. I've only read the few 30 or so posts so I'm sure my comments are sounding somewhat dated. Anyway, your system looks great. I'd like to do some PMing with you about Classe if you don't mind.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18167148
> 
> 
> I understood that point, but it doesn't mean the drivers are performing as well as they could. And it's not just at the crossover frequency. Damping is lower at other places too, so you're giving up on control of the driver. Sounded fine to you...that's good! But it's an uphilll battle. Performance is left "on the table". This is like filling up your Ferrari with 87 octane. It'll run but you may have to retune the engine a little.
> 
> 
> And of course this isn't the only problem. A lot of passive speakers also use lower order slopes and even if there are not problems from the lack of damping, the drivers are often asked to play in wider ranges than necessary. We've discussed this and seen this in many speakers. Furthermore, active allows improved transient response, higher dynamic range, increased output, reduced IM distortion, easier loads on the amps, and it might even be easier to do certain things like match sensitivities, notch out resonances, etc.
> 
> 
> If performance is the objective, passives are a compromise. If a design is so well thought out that it can overcome some of these things, that's great, but some disadvantages cannot be overcome. You may think this is all B.S. and that's fine. The more I think about it, the only reason to use passives is convenience.
> 
> 
> I understand for some this is like finding out that the tooth fairy is really your mother. At first you may deny it, but eventually you'll realize what's going on.



I don't think it is BS, I just don't think that there is one cause to a common problem. In this case, I don't think that poor damping is the sole cause of an unpleasant character in the crossover region. I't might be in one speaker, and it might be something else in another, or it might not be a problem at all. We just have to be careful about generalizing.


With that said, active crossovers certainly appear to be, to the best of my knowledge, much less of a peroformance compromise than passive, and I'd own a pair tomorrow if they were more widely available and more domestically friendlly.


BTW - this sort of exchange is completely cool with me. Hijack away.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18151682
> 
> 
> Hey Waboman -
> 
> 
> (in order of preference)
> 
> High End
> 
> B&W Signature Diamond
> 
> B&W 802N
> 
> Wilson Sophia (paired with Acoustic Research flagship gear)
> 
> Dali Helicon 800
> 
> Wilson Benesch
> 
> Focal Utopia Mini
> 
> Dynaudio Special 25
> 
> Linn Akurate
> 
> Good Value
> 
> Paradigm Signature
> 
> Vienna Acoustics
> 
> Monitor Audio GS
> 
> Era D5
> 
> NHT Classic series




Interesting list Tim. I've listened to most of them, probably since we have the same hi-fi shops around us. I'm surprised the Avalon Eidelon's did not make your list. I thought those were fantastic.


I agree that the Audio Research must be doing something special. I heard the Wilson Max III in an all Ayre setup, and although it sounded very nice, I thought the Sasha's with the AR gear was more impressive.


However, I know for the Wilson Sasha's, they sounded very good connected to an all Classe setup as well as the AR gear.


Regarding the Active vs Passive discussion, I've always been fascinated by this topic. I actually have an opportunity to hear my speakers, but modded as an active speaker in May. It should make for an fun and educational comparison. I actually think if Active speakers can in a more stylish package, it could have an advantage over passive systems from an aesthetic standpoint since you can eliminate placing those heavy bulky amplifiers.


Anyways, it's always interesting to read about the different directions your system is going. Keep it up!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18168605
> 
> 
> Interesting list Tim. I've listened to most of them, probably since we have the same hi-fi shops around us. I'm surprised the Avalon Eidelon's did not make your list. I thought those were fantastic.
> 
> 
> I agree that the Audio Research must be doing something special. I heard the Wilson Max III in an all Ayre setup, and although it sounded very nice, I thought the Sasha's with the AR gear was more impressive.
> 
> 
> However, I know for the Wilson Sasha's, they sounded very good connected to an all Classe setup as well as the AR gear.
> 
> 
> Regarding the Active vs Passive discussion, I've always been fascinated by this topic. I actually have an opportunity to hear my speakers, but modded as an active speaker in May. It should make for an fun and educational comparison. I actually think if Active speakers can in a more stylish package, it could have an advantage over passive systems from an aesthetic standpoint since you can eliminate placing those heavy bulky amplifiers.
> 
> 
> Anyways, it's always interesting to read about the different directions your system is going. Keep it up!



I knew I was forgetting something. The Avalons would go just below the Sasha's.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18168605
> 
> 
> Regarding the Active vs Passive discussion, I've always been fascinated by this topic. I actually have an opportunity to hear my speakers, but modded as an active speaker in May. It should make for an fun and educational comparison. I actually think if Active speakers can in a more stylish package, it could have an advantage over passive systems from an aesthetic standpoint since you can eliminate placing those heavy bulky amplifiers.



Which speakers do you have and who has modded them as active? What kind of crossover are they using (existing digital unit like DEQX, custom, analog, etc.)?


Those Meridian speakers already have very cool aesthetics and show us what is possible when you can get rid of some of your boxes.


As for the "domestically friendly" aspect, a 12-channel ATI 6012 amp puts out 60wpc is plenty to run six 2-way speakers. Incidentally, the specs on this amp are good as good as mega $$ amps seen elsewhere.


----------



## DarrellG

I just upgraded my crappy HT and thought that it sounded great, until I came here and saw what you have.


Wow, I'm gonna go home and cry now. I love the Classe stuff and the speakers you finally chose.


Don't change anything!


Awesome, awesome gear man.


----------



## mpmct

Darrell, have you been paying attention?


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18169034
> 
> 
> Which speakers do you have and who has modded them as active? What kind of crossover are they using (existing digital unit like DEQX, custom, analog, etc.)?
> 
> 
> Those Meridian speakers already have very cool aesthetics and show us what is possible when you can get rid of some of your boxes.
> 
> 
> As for the "domestically friendly" aspect, a 12-channel ATI 6012 amp puts out 60wpc is plenty to run six 2-way speakers. Incidentally, the specs on this amp are good as good as mega $$ amps seen elsewhere.



Hi Vantage


I have the Eficion F300. Somewhat similar to a Aerial 20T in aesthetics (it's in a watt puppy configuration with AMT tweeter, super ribbon tweeter on rear, and separate bass box).


I guess I should say that the speakers I will listen to aren't active as in amplifiers built in but just an active crossover. I shouldn't say too much but from what I know they run off of a Heavily Modded Behringer DEQX. the bass is powered by Class D high wattage amp, the mids and high from a lower wattage chip amp I believe. I know the particular individual is thrilled with the results and a big believer in an active crossover vs. a passover. I'm pretty excited to hear it. It'll definitely be an interesting comparison vs my passive crossover F300's.


----------



## mpmct

Marketing keeps us confused.

"Active" means a line-level crossover, the signal is split before amplification.

"Powered" means loudspeakers with amplifiers built into the boxes --

they are passive crossover, at least by strict definition.

Some manufacturers describe their 'powered' speakers as 'active'.

They are not. Not unless they have a line-level pre-amplification

electronic crossover. Point is, you have to read the fine print sometimes.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mpmct* /forum/post/18167445
> 
> 
> Tim, FWIW, more free advice: One of the best things I stumbled on
> 
> was a 'near flat' set of Shure in-ear phones. They're on Linkwitz' site
> 
> under link "Reference Earphones". Skip down to where he gets to the Shures.
> 
> That model is discontinued, but can be found on amazon usually for now
> 
> discount price -- cheap. Anyway, these little phones are crystal clear *and*
> 
> deadly smooth. No hash, no pain in listening to things like Miles' trumpet
> 
> or Joni Mitchell's voice when she reaches high. Those are just two random examples
> 
> of the audio range that I found unpleasant on lots of speakers,
> 
> and where I suspect you sometimes had some issues too with some speakers?
> 
> The phones have no crossovers of course, single drivers. So that's a clue I think.
> 
> Next, if there's a way to get your mitts on any decent pair of pro-audio
> 
> active xover monitors for home audition, might be worth it.
> 
> My local guys are M-Audio and Genelec dealers both, I've heard a handful
> 
> of either brand. They are very nice speakers, and free of that upper-mid pain,
> 
> as far as I have been able to tell in numerous lengthy listening sessions.
> 
> Some of them aren't what I'd call pretty to look at, but leaving that part
> 
> out of it ... just to have the chance, at home and at your leisure, to have
> 
> a listen and see what you think.



I was seriously considering a set of Genelecs and trying my damnedest to get past their industrial stylings, but I just can't do it. Please don't hate me for wanting something pretty to look at.










FWIW - about a year ago I visted a recording studio that was working on the surround mix for an upcoming video game and they were using powered Genelecs all around. This was some time ago and playing unfamiliar material, but I remember being pretty impressed with their clarity. I also rememeber thinking that they sounded rather dry and analytical, but not in a distracting way. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't kick 'em out of bed for eating crackers.


----------



## RMK!

Hi Tim,

Can't say I'm surprised by your decision. Hearing your friends system must have been an epiphany. I had a similar experience that led me to purge of my high end audio gear in exchange more utilitarian hardware.


I also like trying new things and once you get the buying and selling part down it doesn't have to be all that financially punitive. Surprised you didn't go for the 4810CI but the 5803's feature set should keep you busy and Audyssey is certainly interesting. I just returned a Pro Installer Kit to Audyssey yesterday. There were too many connection issues with my new Integra processor and it was taking two hours to setup, run and tweak Pro with my 9.2 config. Others (most) are very happy with Audyssey Pro so YMMV.


Good luck with the new gear.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RMK!* /forum/post/18169884
> 
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> Can't say I'm surprised by your decision. Hearing your friends system must have been an epiphany. I had a similar experience that led me to purge of my high end audio gear in exchange more utilitarian hardware.
> 
> 
> I also like trying new things and once you get the buying and selling part down it doesn't have to be all that financially punitive. Surprised you didn't go for the 4810CI but the 5803's feature set should keep you busy and Audyssey is certainly interesting. I just returned a Pro Installer Kit to Audyssey yesterday. There were too many connection issues with my new Integra processor and it was taking two hours to setup, run and tweak Pro with my 9.2 config. Others (most) are very happy with Audyssey Pro so YMMV.
> 
> 
> Good luck with the new gear.



Finally, someone that understands me.










I had forgotten that you had gone through a similar change of heart not to long ago, going from an all Revel Ultima set-up to pro-audio style gear.


I'll still be trying to find a good looking and good sounding set of speakers, but I don't need a Ferrari to get around town if you know what I mean. A BMW 3 series will do just fine.










PS - I would have bought your installer kit off of you.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18169626
> 
> 
> Hi Vantage
> 
> 
> I have the Eficion F300. Somewhat similar to a Aerial 20T in aesthetics (it's in a watt puppy configuration with AMT tweeter, super ribbon tweeter on rear, and separate bass box).
> 
> 
> I guess I should say that the speakers I will listen to aren't active as in amplifiers built in but just an active crossover. I shouldn't say too much but from what I know they run off of a Heavily Modded Behringer DEQX. the bass is powered by Class D high wattage amp, the mids and high from a lower wattage chip amp I believe. I know the particular individual is thrilled with the results and a big believer in an active crossover vs. a passover. I'm pretty excited to hear it. It'll definitely be an interesting comparison vs my passive crossover F300's.



Very cool. I think you can program some pretty steep slopes into the DEQX, which can be helpful to limit excursions of that ribbon tweeter. Wonder how he modded the DEQX. Amongst the active proponents, there is debate as to whether digital or analog crossovers are better. Apparently with digital there is a potential for ringing with steep slopes, but with analog there are limits to the steepness of a slope. It's a tradeoff: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers.htm#I


----------



## mpmct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18169844
> 
> 
> I was seriously considering a set of Genelecs and trying my damnedest to get past their industrial stylings, but I just can't do it. Please don't hate me for wanting something pretty to look at.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW - about a year ago I visted a recording studio that was working on the surround mix for an upcoming video game and they were using powered Genelecs all around. This was some time ago and playing unfamiliar material, but I remember being pretty impressed with their clarity. I also rememeber thinking that they sounded rather dry and analytical, but not in a distracting way. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't kick 'em out of bed for eating crackers.



Yep, looks matter.










My local pro audio shop has the larger newest M-Audios on their mastering bench and they're just too big and kind of brut-ish looking for my tastes ...

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...phileDSM2.html 


In one of my lengthy conversations with these two guys ( and BTW they both happen to have dual college degrees in both music and elec. engineering ) they have pointed out that the transducers on either end are the only real points of significant variability anymore in the audio chain -- leaving the recordings and listening room out of the discussion of course. Anyway ...

It's interesting to note the monitors in use at places like the Berklee School of Music in Boston, on their website. That has to tell us something by way of suggestion too. I see M-Audios, Genelecs, and a couple of other brands I can't identify for sure, possibly Mackies. ( One of the two guys is a Berklee grad, he pointed this out to me. ). I asked them about Dynaudio pro gear, and they were agnostic -- haven't owned or used it. But they did say, as the head sales guy at Benchmark mentioned to me once on the phone: quality active monitors will produce more accurate sound on balance. The Benchmark guy said they offer a "Complete System" with Dynaudio actives because they are more accurate than passive solutions ...

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/system...tereo-solution 


JMHO, the Dynaudio actives are more handsome than most of the other pro monitors I've seen.


----------



## dmw16




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16276685
> 
> 
> I'm in the video game biz, so it only seemed appropriate to have a room dedicated to staying up on my company's product and to perform "competitive market analysis".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I managed to squeeze a 5.1 system into a 10 x 10 foot spare bedroom, and you know what? It sounds amazing! Having each speaker under five feet away from you really creates an immersive surround sound field. It was tough finding small speakers that met my expectations though. I was originally going to go with a cheap HTIB solution, but they all sounded shrill. However, the moment I heard the Monitor Audio Radius speakers, I knew that I couldn't settle for less. These are just fantastic little speakers.
> 
> 
> One last thing. What they say about square rooms is true. They wreak havoc on sound quality. When I first set-up the sub in this room, there was a huge peak in the upper bass that made the sound very woofy and boomy. The only way to get the sound in check was to add a Velodyne SMS-1 EQ to the system. I ended up having to put a -12 dB filter at 70Hz to even things out.



Any chance you could provide more pics, info, or an equipment list for this room? I was thinking of getting up something similar in one of our spare bedrooms.


Thanks.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dmw16* /forum/post/18203558
> 
> 
> Any chance you could provide more pics, info, or an equipment list for this room? I was thinking of getting up something similar in one of our spare bedrooms.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Not much too it really. An inexpensive Harmon Kardon AVR (50 watts X 5), the Monitor Audio Radius 90 speakers for L/R/Surround, the MA Radius 180 for center, MA Radius 720 sub, Velodyne SMS-1 subwoofer EQ, and all current home console game systems.


If you have any specific questions, fire away.


----------



## dmw16




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18204471
> 
> 
> Not much too it really. An inexpensive Harmon Kardon AVR (50 watts X 5), the Monitor Audio Radius 90 speakers for L/R/Surround, the MA Radius 180 for center, MA Radius 720 sub, Velodyne SMS-1 subwoofer EQ, and all current home console game systems.
> 
> 
> If you have any specific questions, fire away.



Thanks. Looks really nicely done (which is exactly what I'd expect seeing your living room setup). I'd really like to do something like that, just need to decide if I can live without a computer and a desk since the other spare bedroom is my wife's room to do with as she pleases.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dmw16* /forum/post/18205424
> 
> 
> Thanks. Looks really nicely done (which is exactly what I'd expect seeing your living room setup).



Thanks much. My perfectionism does have its benifits, even if it drives my wife mad most of the time.











> Quote:
> I'd really like to do something like that, just need to decide if I can live without a computer and a desk since the other spare bedroom is my wife's room to do with as she pleases.



That's what laptops are for.


----------



## pipaka

*this is very good*


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pipaka* /forum/post/18208352
> 
> *this is very good*



Thanks much!


And welcome to the forum.


----------



## dmw16




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18205445
> 
> 
> Thanks much. My perfectionism does have its benifits, even if it drives my wife mad most of the time.



Mine drives my wife crazy too. I'm not sure if it's the associated cost or just the obsessing.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18205445
> 
> 
> That's what laptops are for.



Yeah, you are right. I have a desktop that is very much a gaming machine, but I suppose I could always get a wireless keyboard and mouse (or Xbox360 controller) and game from the couch.


----------



## Djoel

Any updates Tim







Gotta get my fix vicariously through you pal.



DJoel


----------



## hifisponge

Listened to the 805Di's today and they are fantastic speakers.


Balanced from top to bottom, great resolution without sounding edgy or analytical, impressive bass for their size, pinpoint imaging and a stable center image off axis. Maybe a touch recessed through the mids. Powered by a modest Rotel integrated amp (RA-1520) and Rotel CD player (RCD-1520). $2K for the pair.


I was offered the chance to listen to the 804Dis, but one of the other salesmen moved them out an put the 803Di's in their place. So I listened to the 802Di's instead. Also a phenominal speaker though they sounded a touch forward/bright. However, thanks to the very clean sound of the diamond tweet and FST, this character was not offensive in any way. And trust me, I brought some music that would make them sizzle if they were going to. The 802Dis were connected to $31,000 of "uber-fi" gear including Audio Research tube amp (VS60, $5K) and Audio Research preamp (LS26, $6K), and Meridian's top of the line CD player (808.3 Signature, $20K).


Truth is, other than slightly tighter bass, a bit more detail and a slightly more analog sound (thanks to the tubes), I didn't feel the 802Di system was leagues better than the 805Di system at the modest but still lively levels I listened at. Better, yes, just not a quantum leap. And that includes the vast difference in front end gear. I think that properly crossed over to a JL F112 sub, the 805Di's would come within 90% of what the 802Di's offer when played back at less than bone crushing levels. Just my 2 cents. YMMV.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18332491
> 
> 
> Listened to the 805Di's today and they are fantastic speakers.
> 
> 
> Balanced from top to bottom, great resolution without sounding edgy or analytical, impressive bass for their size, pinpoint imaging and a stable center image off axis. Maybe a touch recessed through the mids. Powered by a modest Rotel integrated amp (RA-1520) and Rotel CD player (RCD-1520). $2K for the pair.
> 
> 
> I was offered the chance to listen to the 804Dis, but one of the other salesmen moved them out an put the 803Di's in their place. So I listened to the 802Di's instead. Also a phenominal speaker though they sounded a touch forward/bright. However, thanks to the very clean sound of the diamond tweet and FST, this character was not offensive in any way. And trust me, I brought some music that would make them sizzle if they were going to. The 802Dis were connected to $31,000 of "uber-fi" gear including Audio Research tube amp (VS60, $5K) and Audio Research preamp (LS26, $6K), and Meridian's top of the line CD player (808.3 Signature, $20K).
> 
> 
> Truth is, other than slightly tighter bass, a bit more detail and a slightly more analog sound (thanks to the tubes), I didn't feel the 802Di system was leagues better than the 805Di system. Better, yes, just not a quantum leap. And that includes the vast difference in front end gear. I think that properly crossed over to a JL F112 sub, the 805Di's would come within 90% of what the 802Di's offer when played back at less than bone crushing levels. Just my 2 cents. YMMV.



Great stuff Tim. I was there at 1:30 today and listened to each of the setups you mentioned in addition to the Magnepan 1.7's. I was very impressed by the 802Di. Truth be told, the previous 802 was not my cup of tea. I found it very laid back and it didn't move me in anyway. I felt the 802Di was a bit forward (which I tend to like), had wonderful weight to the sound (aided by the AR electronics no doubt) without sacrificing any resolution. No sibilance as well, which I've heard in some of their other speakers, including one i used to own (a sub 1000 B&W bookshelf). All in all, I was mightily impressed. Strangely enough the 803 did not impress me but it may have been room related. I did think the 805di was very good. I was surprised to see it hooked up to very modest rotel electronics, but it sounded excellent. Didn't hear that compression or boxy sound you get from many bookshelves. I did think the 802di was significantly better (but perhaps not leagues), but accounting for the difference and what constitutes leagues is so subjective.


I did leave thinking the 805di would just make a phenomenal hybrid HT/2 channel system. Just that clean, dynamic sound, crossed over to a good sub had me drooling. I bet the 805di would have matched great with the Classe SSP-800







Just teasing.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18332683
> 
> 
> Great stuff Tim. I was there at 1:30 today and listened to each of the setups you mentioned in addition to the Magnepan 1.7's. I was very impressed by the 802Di. Truth be told, the previous 802 was not my cup of tea. I found it very laid back and it didn't move me in anyway. I felt the 802Di was a bit forward (which I tend to like), had wonderful weight to the sound (aided by the AR electronics no doubt) without sacrificing any resolution. No sibilance as well, which I've heard in some of their other speakers, including one i used to own (a sub 1000 B&W bookshelf). All in all, I was mightily impressed. Strangely enough the 803 did not impress me but it may have been room related. I did think the 805di was very good. I was surprised to see it hooked up to very modest rotel electronics, but it sounded excellent. Didn't hear that compression or boxy sound you get from many bookshelves. I did think the 802di was significantly better (but perhaps not leagues), but accounting for the difference and what constitutes leagues is so subjective.
> 
> 
> I did leave thinking the 805di would just make a phenomenal hybrid HT/2 channel system. Just that clean, dynamic sound, crossed over to a good sub had me drooling. I bet the 805di would have matched great with the Classe SSP-800
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just teasing.



Very cool that we can share notes. The 803D and 803Di are, IMO, the black sheep of the 800 line. The bass and lower midrange just aren't what they should be in that speaker. What you heard was partially the room, as it always is, but a good portion is just how that speaker is voiced.


The jury is still out on my move to the Denon. I'll have to see how it sounds with the B&W's once I get them, but it would not be out of the relm of possibility that I might pick up the Classe again.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18334839
> 
> 
> Very cool that we can share notes. The 803D and 803Di are, IMO, the black sheep of the 800 line. The bass and lower midrange just aren't what they should be in that speaker. What you heard was partially the room, as it always is, but a good portion is just how that speaker is voiced.
> 
> 
> The jury is still out on my move to the Denon. I'll have to see how it sounds with the B&W's once I get them, but it would not be out of the relm of possibility that I might pick up the Classe again.



Good to know about the B&W 803. I much preferred the 805di, and that was placed on a sidewall in the room with much less expensive electronics. I imagine the 805di with Classe electronics or placed in the room with the AR equipment would be even more impressive. I've always like the bigger floor standing speakers, but hearing the 805di really opened up my ears to the capabilities of a bookshelf speaker. I'm sure it wills sound great with the Denon. I hooked up my B&K 507S2 for a short period before moving to my old house thinking I wouldn't notice a difference (or perhaps hoping) for HT, but the few movies I did watch did not match the experience with the Classe...


Did you get to hear the Maggies? I didn't think they were world beaters like I've read everywhere, but I thought they were a great bargain for their price.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18336066
> 
> 
> Good to know about the B&W 803. I much preferred the 805di, and that was placed on a sidewall in the room with much less expensive electronics. I imagine the 805di with Classe electronics or placed in the room with the AR equipment would be even more impressive. I've always like the bigger floor standing speakers, but hearing the 805di really opened up my ears to the capabilities of a bookshelf speaker. I'm sure it wills sound great with the Denon. I hooked up my B&K 507S2 for a short period before moving to my old house thinking I wouldn't notice a difference (or perhaps hoping) for HT, but the few movies I did watch did not match the experience with the Classe...
> 
> 
> Did you get to hear the Maggies? I didn't think they were world beaters like I've read everywhere, but I thought they were a great bargain for their price.



Didn't hear the new Maggies, but have listened to their largest panel about a year ago. Very nice sounding speaker, I just don't have the room for them and they are not a good fit for HT.


About the Denon. I've been noticing what seems like an edgy quality to the sound, but I think a fair amount of this has to do with the inexpensive speakers I'm using right now and the fact that cable TV audio is often edgy to begin with. I'm crossing my fingers that the sound smooths out a bit with the B&W's.


----------



## Bigred7078




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18336470
> 
> 
> Didn't hear the new Maggies, but have listened to their largest panel about a year ago. Very nice sounding speaker, I just don't have the room for them and they are not a good fit for HT.
> 
> 
> About the Denon. I've been noticing what seems like an edgy quality to the sound, but I think a fair amount of this has to do with the inexpensive speakers I'm using right now and the fact that cable TV audio is often edgy to begin with. I'm crossing my fingers that the sound smooths out a bit with the B&W's.



what are you using the 5308 at the moment?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bigred7078* /forum/post/18336880
> 
> 
> what are you using the 5308 at the moment?



Yes, the Denon AVR5308 powering the Monitor Audio Radius speakers borrowed from my game room system.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18336911
> 
> 
> Yes, the Denon AVR5308 powering the Monitor Audio Radius speakers borrowed from my game room system.



If you're wait time for the B&W is going to be long you are welcome to borrow my Eficion F200's. They use a Aurum Cantus Ribbon Tweeter, nice rigid cabinet and has surprisingly good bass. They are also quite homely, although I've gotten used to their appearance







I'm getting a custom stand built for them so they are in the garage for the time being. Might be a good test if you have a limited time with the Denon to make a decision.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18337057
> 
> 
> If you're wait time for the B&W is going to be long you are welcome to borrow my Eficion F200's. They use a Aurum Cantus Ribbon Tweeter, nice rigid cabinet and has surprisingly good bass. They are also quite homely, although I've gotten used to their appearance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm getting a custom stand built for them so they are in the garage for the time being. Might be a good test if you have a limited time with the Denon to make a decision.



That's very kind of you. Thanks for the offer. I've got some troubleshooting to go through first, but I'll let you know.


----------



## funkmonkey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18336470
> 
> 
> Didn't hear the new Maggies, but have listened to their largest panel about a year ago. Very nice sounding speaker, I just don't have the room for them and they are not a good fit for HT.
> 
> 
> About the Denon. *I've been noticing what seems like an edgy quality* to the sound, but I think a fair amount of this has to do with the inexpensive speakers I'm using right now and the fact that cable TV audio is often edgy to begin with. I'm crossing my fingers that the sound smooths out a bit with the B&W's.



Sounds kinda familiar, Tim... One speaker that I never was able to find, that I really would have liked to hear was the ProAc (?). If I remember right, people seemed to tell me that one of the outstanding attributes was the smoothness. Just something to consider, before you commit to the B&Ws.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funkmonkey* /forum/post/18344817
> 
> 
> Sounds kinda familiar, Tim... One speaker that I never was able to find, that I really would have liked to hear was the ProAc (?). If I remember right, people seemed to tell me that one of the outstanding attributes was the smoothness. Just something to consider, before you commit to the B&Ws.



Yes, those words have crossed my lips all too often.










I think it's more than likely the MA speakers I'm using temporarily.


I know this, the 805Di's hooked up to modest solid state Rotel gear sounded great. Smooth, but not smoothed over. So there is hope, even with a hard dome.


That has always been part of my dilemma. I like the resolution of hard dome, but the smoothness of the soft. The tweets in the 805Di seem to straddle the line well. I'd like to at least give them a try.


----------



## hifisponge

Got my first pair of B&W 805Di's in today.


Listening impressions and final pics will come at some point in the future, but for now I hope these pics make you feel like you were here when I unpacked them.


----------



## Bigred7078

Awesome!


----------



## btf1980

I have a feeling that you aren't going to swap these speakers out anytime soon.


----------



## thenish03

Very Nice !


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks guys! They sure are purdy, aren't they.


----------



## chjo100

Very cool! Let us know how they sound with the Denon and perhaps a comparison to the Rotel based setup. Wait a minute, is that a new dog in the picture?


----------



## funkmonkey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18420323
> 
> 
> Got my first pair of B&W 805Di's in today.
> 
> 
> Listening impressions and final pics will come at some point in the future, but for now I hope these pics make you feel like you were here when I unpacked them.



They do look pretty slick... carbon fiber port and all... very shiny.

Happy listening Tim.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18422561
> 
> 
> Very cool! Let us know how they sound with the Denon and perhaps a comparison to the Rotel based setup. Wait a minute, is that a new dog in the picture?



Will do.


Nope, same dog that makes it into several of my speaker pics-- Roxy the pug.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funkmonkey* /forum/post/18422744
> 
> 
> They do look pretty slick... carbon fiber port and all... very shiny.
> 
> Happy listening Tim.



Yes, slick.







The fit and finish on these speakers is second to none. I'm a sucker for details, and no detail has been overlooked with the build of these speakers. . . The mirror smooth finish, the magnetic grill attachments (no attachment holes in the face of the speaker, yeh!), the cast metal tweeter housing, the custom binding posts (gorgeous!), the polished aluminum phase plug, and even midrange driver mounting ring all give the speaker a look of polished elegance. Even the jumpers use custom fittings at the ends that look like they were lathed from solid brass.


BTW - the port is actually dimpled (think golf ball), rubberized plastic. The dimples around the flare of the port is supposed to suppress turbulence. Looks cool anyway.










Color me impressed.


----------



## ronesp

hifisponge,


Congrats, those look marvelous! Can't wait to hear about how they sound in your room. By chance did you get to listen to the new Usher 718's with the diamond tweeter? Wonder how the two compare. Still like the Denon or can we expect a bunch of new reviews (hope, hope)?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ronesp* /forum/post/18423865
> 
> 
> hifisponge,
> 
> 
> Congrats, those look marvelous! Can't wait to hear about how they sound in your room. By chance did you get to listen to the new Usher 718's with the diamond tweeter? Wonder how the two compare. Still like the Denon or can we expect a bunch of new reviews (hope, hope)?



Hi ronesp -


It may be a little while til I get the chance to do a proper review of the 805Di's, since I'm still waiting on stands and I've got no firm date of delivery on those, but it will happen.


The jury is still out on the Denon. I don't want to jump the gun by saying this, but I'm pretty sure that it doesn't have the analog smoothness of the Classe. More of a vivid, digital sound that I'm not too sure I'm keen on. But I want to give it some time, as depending on the day, my mood and the particular music I'm playing, my impressions change. And I tend to be a bit too hastey in my decisions, so I'm *trying* to be patient.


I've only heard the aluminum/beryllium coated Usher briefly at a local dealer. A good sounding speaker overall, though I sensed a bit of tizz from the tweeter. Not as bad as many metal domes for me, but it was there and it would probably be an annoyance to me after a while. To the best of my knowledge, the Usher "Diamond" tweet is really an aluminum dome with a carbon "diamond like" coating. Not that this rules it out from sounding good, but it is misleading, I think, to call it a "diamond" tweeter.


----------



## ronesp

hifisponge,


Thanks. Yeah, Usher seems to have a naming problem with their tweeters. They do sound good though.


----------



## Djoel

Hot damn Tim just what I came in here and looking for BIG Congrats on those beauties. LUV those binding post, never seen anything like it. very cool indeed.










Enjoy pal


Djoel


----------



## hifisponge

Hey DJ -


Good to see you back here. How the 802N's treating ya? Did you ever post any pics of those in the forum anywhere?


The 805Di's are works of art.


----------



## Bigred7078

Let's get some pics with them in your system!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bigred7078* /forum/post/18425556
> 
> 
> Let's get some pics with them in your system!



Would if I could, but I don't have all of the pieces yet. It's coming together slowly.


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18425554
> 
> 
> Hey DJ -
> 
> 
> Good to see you back here. How the 802N's treating ya? Did you ever post any pics of those in the forum anywhere?
> 
> 
> The 805Di's are works of art.



Thanks Tim, I'm really loving the 802N, but I gotta tell you I have been mighty curious about late D's which are coming more, and more in use market









Nope no pictures, I'll put some up later day.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18425592
> 
> 
> Would if I could, but I don't have all of the pieces yet. It's coming together slowly.



Ain't that the truth, I just purchase a contraption for my Pdp to mount it away, and make space for those big B&W center channels. I didn't have enough clearance before..Now for that center, when ever that will be










What ever I'll get there sooner or later










Dan


----------



## hifisponge

OK, so I know I should give this a bit of time, but I thought I'd share some early listening impressions of the 805Di's in my room, with my music. Please keep in mind, however, that I might waffle a bit in my opinion in the future. I've found that it can take some time to dial in on the sound of a new system, and depending on the day, my mood, and the particular music I listen to, initial impressions can change.


I also don't have proper stands for the speakers yet. They are simply sitting atop some make-shift stands that I made out of scrap wood. Too ugly to even show, but they work well enough for the time being.


First, I had a bit of a "scare" last night, for a lack of better words. When I fired them up and put the AVR into "pure direct" mode to run them full-range, there was very little bass. Nothing like what I heard in the showroom about a week ago. I figured that the bass wouldn't be identical in my room, with differing room acoustics and all, but this was way off.


Thinking that they might be a little stiff right out of the box, I ran a break-in CD all day while I was work. When I got home from work today, I took another listen, and the bass was still MIA. After some troubleshooting, I discovered that the problem was with the web interface that I can use to control the AVR. Apparently its a little buggy, and when I put the AVR into "pure direct" using the web control, it kills the sub output, but it keeps the mains crossed-over. By going back to the standard remote control to change the mode, bingo! the bass that I remembered was all there. Tight, punchy, well-timed, tuneful and just much better than a speaker this size has any right to have.


As for the new diamond tweeter, as to be expected, wow! Simply amazing resolution and transient response. Clearly better than the Be tweets in the Focals and the Revels that I've owned. Both of those lacked the sparkle I was after when I bought them. Not the B&W Diamond. The strike and then the decay of things like cymbals, chimes, and bells are more clearly delineated than I've heard before, even when there are other sounds or instruments layered on top. Which reminds me. That is something that stood out right away from the midrange on up with the 805Di when I listened today. Every element of sound is just so cleanly separate from the others. Yes, "I did hear things that I haven't heard before" but these things weren't new, rather each musical element was more distinct from the others. The Monitor Audio Platinums had similar resolving power, but their soundstage was compressed and I didn't like the tonal quality of that speaker in the midrange.


Oh yeah, the imaging. I've never placed a lot of value on pinpoint imaging. I guess because I've never really had it that good in my room, and I'm more concerned with tonality and the size of the soundstage. While listening to one of my reference tracks, a Dianna Krall song that I listen to for vocal quality, I realized for the first time that she was sitting at the piano to sing, slightly off center to the left and facing to the right. I swear that I could hear her shift from singing directly into the mic in front of her to shifting to face the audience. In other words I could hear her sing diagonally out into the room. That was a first. Up til now, her vocals were just a phantom center image.


All wasn't perfect though. My last system, the Wilson Benesch / Classe rig, had a smoothness / naturalness that sounded closer to "real" than anything else I've owned. The sound of that system could be a bit to withdrawn at times, but it was always natural. The B&W 805Di / Denon combo is a more vivid and "digital" sounding presentation. The vivid part I like, the digital part, not so much. It's not offensive, but there is that somewhat etched sharp quality to the sound that reminds me that I'm listening to a recording through speakers rather than the illusion the performer is in the room. So, if after I take the the time to get the EQ dialed in and everything set-up properly, and after I live with the sound for a while, if the digititus still bothers me, I may try out some different prepros / AVRs to see if I can get a sound that is a bit smoother.


----------



## funkmonkey

Sounds like a successful listen. I am sure you have heard it before, but just (re)consider getting a some tubes in the chain, somewhere (Pre, DAC...). They really help to remove that "digital" stamp on the sound.


----------



## vantagesc

I wonder if the wonderful imaging is due to the tweeter having essentially no baffle. Does the tonal character of the speaker change a lot when you listen way off axis? If not, this suggests the speaker has is achieving good "constant directivity", which IMO is a key characteristic of a good speaker. I.e. good polar response!


So the treble sounds a bit like the MA Platinum line, but perhaps smoother? I think the PL100s can sound a little small, but I think that is because they are lean sounding. With movies, there cast a huge soundstage. Images were cast out in front of the speaker towards the listener.


It's also encouraging that this speaker doesn't huff and puff in the bass like the 805S at higher volume levels. Though that might have been irrelevant with your use of an F112.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funkmonkey* /forum/post/18426901
> 
> 
> Sounds like a successful listen. I am sure you have heard it before, but just (re)consider getting a some tubes in the chain, somewhere (Pre, DAC...). They really help to remove that "digital" stamp on the sound.



I hear ya. I finally got to listen to some really good tube gear last year (Audio Research and VTL) and it is a wonderful sound. Smooth, yet not smoothed over. I'll see what I can do.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18427281
> 
> 
> I wonder if the wonderful imaging is due to the tweeter having essentially no baffle. Does the tonal character of the speaker change a lot when you listen way off axis? If not, this suggests the speaker has is achieving good "constant directivity", which IMO is a key characteristic of a good speaker. I.e. good polar response!
> 
> 
> So the treble sounds a bit like the MA Platinum line, but perhaps smoother? I think the PL100s can sound a little small, but I think that is because they are lean sounding. With movies, there cast a huge soundstage. Images were cast out in front of the speaker towards the listener.
> 
> 
> It's also encouraging that this speaker doesn't huff and puff in the bass like the 805S at higher volume levels. Though that might have been irrelevant with your use of an F112.



I think you're right. That baffle-less tweeter probably is the key to improved imaging I hear. And yes, off-axis listening is much more stable than with my WBs.


These 805Dis are very similar in character to the MA Platinums, but at least with the PL300s, the sound stage was pretty much between the speakers, and for some reason, the sounds within the stage seemed somewhat smaller than many of the other speakers I've tried. And then there was that upper midrange unpleasantness that broke the deal for me.


I can say with confidence, that I have absolutely no complaints with the bass quality from the 805Di. It is fantastic. None of the woofy, wooly, chuffy sound that you get from some ported speakers, and man, for the size, the bass extension is really quite remarkable. The Canton Ref 9.2's may have had a bit more bass, and those are pretty much the same size as the B&W's, but the Cantons weren't as tight and controlled, and there was some lower midrange resonance with that speaker that I couldn't get to go away completely with positioning.


----------



## vantagesc

I would guess your speakers are maybe 7 feet apart. How far away do you sit for critical listening?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18428298
> 
> 
> I would guess your speakers are maybe 7 feet apart. How far away do you sit for critical listening?



Hate to admit it, but the closest I can get is 12 feet. Not the ideal equilateral triangle, but its not as bad as it may seem.


Why do you ask?


----------



## mpmct

That's a lot of reflective, just sayin' ...


"Q: But wouldn't it be a moot point if you have a properly set up room?


No. Polar response matters as long as you're not out doors or in an anechoic

chamber. It matters less when the speakers are sitting on your desk but that

doesn't describe most domestic listening situations.



Q: Off axis really only creates problems when you are sitting too far off to one

side, or you get lots of first reflections from the off axis sound.

*Most domestic situations result in the majority of the sound energy coming

from the reverberant field.*


Even if you assume directivity down to DC (which is obviously wrong), a 95x55

degree wave guide with directivity factor 9 in a 5000 cubic foot room (volume

increases the critical distance) that has an Rt60 of 300ms (lower

reverberation times increase the critical distance) *sitting over 12 feet from

the speakers means most of the sound is coming from the reverberant field.*


With less directivity and an un-treated room you can end up with a critical

distance (where the direct sound and reverberant fields are equal) around 3';

so by the time you're at the 8' from your speakers to get out of the near

field with unpredictable results the direct sound is -8.5dB versus the

reverberant field.


It's an over-simplification but still useful. Directivity on conventional

speakers varies from 0dB at low frequencies to 10dB once the tweeter is

beaming in the last octave. Rooms aren't uniform diffuse spaces.


Psychoacoustics are another side of this. Your brain adjusts for the

attenuation when using delayed reflections to form its impression of timbre.


With two speakers there's destructive interference in the phantom center image

due to the path length difference between the two speakers and one ear and

effects from head shadowing. The broad notch produces a duller sound in the

sweet spot than if you had a physical center channel. Less directivity and

more reflections can help to fill that in.


Floyd Toole's book _Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of

Loudspeakers and Rooms_ summarizes decades of research on these subjects while

being light on math and is an entirely worthwhile read."


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18428387
> 
> 
> Hate to admit it, but the closest I can get is 12 feet. Not the ideal equilateral triangle, but its not as bad as it may seem.
> 
> 
> Why do you ask?



Just to get an idea of your setup. 12' isn't bad. I've had the PL100s in a small (roughly 15' x 10' area) and large (30' x 25') room. For movies in the large room I sat back on the sofa, over 15' away, but for critical listening, I pull a small chair up to about 9' or closer.


Most music is between the speakers IMO. Some speakers do a better job of disappearing even when music is coming from one left or right extreme, and some can even cast occasional images outside the bounds of the speakers. PL100s are way better than GS10s and Usher Be718s in this regard. But I think what you are referring to is what I understand as image size. Because of the slight recess in the midrange in the Platinum series, images are a little smaller and thin. Maybe this, combined with a speaker that beams a bit more, can result in a smaller soundstage, for the way you had them set up?


That said, as Michael points out, when you sit far from the speakers, the reflected sound dominates. Every speaker I've had benefited from sitting closer, especially having sound wash by your ears and not bounce back at you for some distance. And another benefit of this is that the distance between the speakers takes up a wider portion of your view, so the soundstage will seem bigger, more enveloping. When you sit far away, phantom images are muddied and less discrete. You are also at the mercy of the speaker's polar response. As we have seen, speakers are often voiced with irregularities in on-axis response to help compensate for poor polar response.


Anyway, sitting in a closer position has always improved my subjective evaluation of a speakers soundstage. More enveloping, better image specificity, and less room interference. The 805Di must be doing a better job controlling its dispersion that other speakers you've had.


----------



## hifisponge

As impressed as I was with the 805Di's in the short time I spent with them on demo at the showroom, I'm really beside myself after listening to them throughout the day today. The resolution and the imaging are just incredible. I've had this experience with only one other speaker before (though not in my room), but listening to these 805Di's is like watching HDTV for the first time. I'm listening to some electronic music right now that has about 37 layers of sounds being thrown at me, and every single one is separate from the rest, swirling around the room in a panoramic soundstage-- incredible. And now that the 805Di's are being supported by my JL sub, with the EQ calibrated, it really doesn't get much better, IME.










Well, the sub integration still needs a bit of work, but that is easy enough to do with Room EQ Wizard and an hour of playing with crossover settings, level, and phase.


----------



## ddgtr

Tim, Happy Easter!


Quick question: was price a big factor in your decision to get the 805s vs say the 802,3 or 4s or did you buy them based only on auditioning?


Thanks


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18429980
> 
> 
> As impressed as I was with the 805Di's in the short time I spent with them on demo at the showroom, I'm really beside myself after listening to them throughout the day today. The resolution and the imaging are just incredible. I've had this experience with only one other speaker before (though not in my room), but listening to these 805Di's is like watching HDTV for the first time. I'm listening to some electronic music right now that has about 37 layers of sounds being thrown at me, and every single one is separate from the rest, swirling around the room in a panoramic soundstage-- incredible. And now that the 805Di's are being supported by my JL sub, with the EQ calibrated, it really doesn't get much better, IME.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the sub integration still needs a bit of work, but that is easy enough to do with Room EQ Wizard and an hour of playing with crossover settings, level, and phase.




Ah post like this are the reason I get these jots of urges of putting up my babies up for sale and getting me a set of new B&W's whether they be 805Di's










Here's some shots of my darling when they first arrived home, it's in your hand if they leave this loving home














































I will yield all temptation


DJoel


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/18431519
> 
> 
> Tim, Happy Easter!
> 
> 
> Quick question: was price a big factor in your decision to get the 805s vs say the 802,3 or 4s or did you buy them based only on auditioning?
> 
> 
> Thanks



Size, price, practicality and sound were all factors. I was close to going with the 804Di's (which is as big as I would go for aesthetic reasons), but the matching center for those speakers is huge and it would have driven the speaker cost up another $5K. Then I listened to the 805Di and it confirmed that I really don't need a speaker even as large as the 804Di (which is medium sized at best).


After going through a good number of large tower speakers, I realized that a sub/monitor system gives me all of the clean output I need. Using tools like Room EQ Wizard allows me to achieve near-perfect sub/monitor integration, and full-range sound that will match or beat most towers alone.


There is also something that much more impressive with a "small" system that sounds big.


Now if you have a large room or an aversion to using a subwoofer, then towers would make more sense, but I think that often times it is easy to overbuy, going with large speakers when they really aren't needed. I know, I've been there.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/18431697
> 
> 
> Ah post like this are the reason I get these jots of urges of putting up my babies up for sale and getting me a set of new B&W's whether they be 805Di's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's some shots of my darling when they first arrived home, it's in your hand if they leave this loving home
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will yield all temptation
> 
> 
> DJoel



Congrats on the 802N's Joel! They are a beast of a speaker and if you've got the room for them, they are hard to beat. I don't know that you need to go changing anything. One of my most memorable experiences in this hobby was at a friend's who owned the 802N's at the time. The sound was insane. Detailed, enveloping and 3 dimensional. I felt like a kid on Space Mountain for the first time.


----------



## AvGeek07

WoW,very nice indeed. Do you recommend these for music or ht usage?

Man,the paint finish on them look impressive.!


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18432019
> 
> 
> Congrats on the 802N's Joel! They are a beast of a speaker and if you've got the room for them, they are hard to beat. I don't know that you need to go changing anything. One of my most memorable experiences in this hobby was at a friend's who owned the 802N's at the time. The sound was insane. Detailed, enveloping and 3 dimensional. I felt like a kid on Space Mountain for the first time.



Thanks Tim


Beast they are, and their imaging are incredible, with bass as detail as I can ever afford







Very dynamic that loss nothing at insane volumes










The truth is, these have been my dream speakers for some time now. Ever since I heard a pair in my local hifi store years back, I would even have the 800 series pamphlet in my audio folder where I have everything that is audio, alone with the a video from B&W









So I'm pretty happy to have them in my present and what they are capable of sonically doing. But there's always that IF factor which I should shake in time.


You enjoy your babies, they seem to be what the doc ordered.



Dan joel


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AvGeek07* /forum/post/18432454
> 
> 
> WoW,very nice indeed. Do you recommend these for music or ht usage?
> 
> Man,the paint finish on them look impressive.!





Who me?


If you're talking to me they do Music very well, and they do ht in a scary sense. Like I said they are very dynamic!


----------



## AvGeek07

@djoel yeah i was commenting on your speakers. sorry man,should of put a name in my post reply. oops







crap,now i want take a listen,im sure they will beat my hsu book shelfs for sure. he he


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AvGeek07* /forum/post/18432509
> 
> 
> @djoel yeah i was commenting on your speakers. sorry man,should of put a name in my post reply. oops
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crap,now i want take a listen,im sure they will beat my hsu book shelfs for sure. he he





They are popping up more and more on the use market ,and if you can get a listen you are sure going to want a pair..


You have to see my gals face when they are at a relatively normal volume







Intense.


Now it's Tim's show, so no more gloating from me.


Djoel


----------



## hifisponge

I'm a stickler for build quality and I have a thing for authenticity. If one is going to pay a premium for something, it should not only have top notch performance, it should be built to a higher level, and no detail should be left unturned. Likewise, if a speaker is being marketing as a high-end offering, it should live up to all of the expectations that go along with that. It is surprising how often corners are cut even in very expensive speakers.


One of my pet peeves is the use of wood screws to mount the drivers into MDF. It is quite common, and even the $16K a pair of Revel Studio2's I owned took this approach. It may be functionally fine (until you over-tighten them), but it is the quick and dirty way to mount a driver. The right way to do it is to to fit the face of the speaker with threaded inserts and use machine screws to fasten the drivers to the cabinet.


I took the liberty of removing one of the screws from the face of the mid-bass driver on the 805Di and I was relieved to see that they have used machine screws. Its sad that this should make me more satisfied with my purchase, but it does.










And everything about the speaker is built to this level. Custom binding posts; custom binding post cup; custom jumpers; custom ports; metal driver trim rings to give the face of the driver a finished appearance; a glass-smooth finish; Mundorf's best Silver/Gold caps; magnetic grill attachments to hide the attachment point when the speaker is "naked"; a cast metal tweeter enclosure; and of course the man made diamond tweeter. Even all of the screw heads are painted gloss black. No detail has been overlooked. All of these things inspire pride of ownership and support the high-end price of admission.


Whether or not someone feels the sound quality matches the price is subjective, but at least you can't argue that the fit and finish don't live up to the expectation for a speaker of this caliber.


----------



## jacksonian

I completely understand having a higher level of satisfaction knowing that the innards are high quality even if you can't see them. I'm just glad I'm not a speaker maker with you as a reviewer.


----------



## Djoel

The 805di had me at the binding post







Glad the B&W meet your stringent standards










I feel the same way about my JL F113, overbuilt and top notch quality.





Djoel


----------



## CRAW

No pics of these all set up in your room, hifisponge?


They are beautiful speakers, and I bet they sound incredible.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CRAW* /forum/post/18454048
> 
> 
> No pics of these all set up in your room, hifisponge?
> 
> 
> They are beautiful speakers, and I bet they sound incredible.



Hey Craw -


Still waiting on the matching stands and the rest of the speakers. More pics to come, once I have something worth showing.


----------



## ddgtr

Tim,


This may be a dumb question: is there a difference between the "D" and "Di" models?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/18454507
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> This may be a dumb question: is there a difference between the "D" and "Di" models?



Yes, quite a few actually. The "Di" model line is the newest revision to the 800 series. Whereas only the 803D through the 800D had diamond tweeters before, now every model in the 800 line has a diamond tweeter. The motor design for the tweeter and the bass drivers has been changed from D to Di, the crossover has been redesigned, and there have been several cosmetic changes to the cabinet, the fittings and the finish. Gloss black was not offered in the previous D series.


----------



## Mr_Superstar

Hi Tim,


You may have already mentioned this, and if you did, I apologize. What made you decide on the B&W's over the Dynaudio C1's? I remember, quite a while ago, you mentioned in some thread that if you hadn't found the WB's you would have purchased the C1's.


Also, those B&W speakers are absolutely beautiful! I *LOVE* gloss black finishes. IMHO, that's the only color speakers should be (even though mine are Satin black.. I couldn't justify the cost increase of true gloss back) .


When I was searching for speakers during my journey, I had the pleasure to listen to the B&W 800D's (which were out of my price range, but the dealer still let me listen). Their imaging was spectacular. If the 805Di's are similar, they are truly a bargain.


Good luck with the B&W's, I hope they work out for ya.


Scott


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mr_Superstar* /forum/post/18456311
> 
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> 
> You may have already mentioned this, and if you did, I apologize. What made you decide on the B&W's over the Dynaudio C1's? I remember, quite a while ago, you mentioned in some thread that if you hadn't found the WB's you would have purchased the C1's.
> 
> 
> Also, those B&W speakers are absolutely beautiful! I *LOVE* gloss black finishes. IMHO, that's the only color speakers should be (even though mine are Satin black.. I couldn't justify the cost increase of true gloss back) .
> 
> 
> When I was searching for speakers during my journey, I had the pleasure to listen to the B&W 800D's (which were out of my price range, but the dealer still let me listen). Their imaging was spectacular. If the 805Di's are similar, they are truly a bargain.
> 
> 
> Good luck with the B&W's, I hope they work out for ya.
> 
> 
> Scott



Hey Scott -


Great question. I've always been torn between the smoothness / sweetness of soft dome tweets vs. the detail / precision of hard domes. I tried a few Beryllium tweets, thinking that they would be better behaved than the aluminum domes I had heard prior, while also providing better resolution, but that gamble didn't work out to well for me with the Focal Be's. The Revels were much better behaved but frankly, nothing special up top, and the overall character of that speaker was too dry and analytical.


Jump forward a bit to my time with the Dynaudio Sapphire. I really liked the treble in that speaker, much better than the Revels, but the soundstage was a bit narrow. It was at this point that I decided I really didn't need or want large tower speakers. So my next logical choice was Dynaudio C1. Then by chance I stumbled across a set of speakers on Agon that I had always been curious about--the WB Discoverys. They didn't have quite the sparkly treble I was after, but the midrange was just so organic and the soundstage so broad, that I decided to go with those.


Jump ahead another year and I listen to the B&W Signature Diamonds at a special presentation at a local dealer. Wow! These speakers had everything I was after. The sparkly, super detailed presentation, no harshness, and a sense of scale / soundstage that greatly outclassed its modest size and single 7" mid/bass driver. But damn, they are $18K a pair and there is no matching center or surrounds.


Another year later, I get the wild hair up my arse to "scale back" my system to something more modest, and during the process B&W announces the release of the new 800 Diamond line. My thoughts of buying budget speakers goes out the window, replaced by the thought of capturing some of that Diamond Signature sound for a quarter of the cost.


----------



## adidino

Tim,


Good luck with the new B&W's. Pics are looking good...


----------



## chjo100

Hey Tim,


Not sure if you know but our local dealer has the 800di setup now







I went back to listen to the 802di and 805di and saw it sitting there so I took a 45 minute listen.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18469559
> 
> 
> Hey Tim,
> 
> 
> Not sure if you know but our local dealer has the 800di setup now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went back to listen to the 802di and 805di and saw it sitting there so I took a 45 minute listen.



Have you posted your thoughts anywhere on AVS?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/18467985
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> Good luck with the new B&W's. Pics are looking good...



Thanks Tony. Things are taking a while to come together, but within a couple of weeks there should be more progress.


Though I think the Denon needs to be replaced / repaired.







Audyssey isn't correcting the sub channel.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18469729
> 
> 
> Have you posted your thoughts anywhere on AVS?



I just listened to them so haven't posted thoughts anywhere. However as expected they were terrific. Had a very nice, fleshed out, weighty sound to it. For myself, if i were to get new speakers I would lean towards the 802di or 805di with subwoofer. All in all, I really am digging this new B&W series.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18469960
> 
> 
> I just listened to them so haven't posted thoughts anywhere. However as expected they were terrific. Had a very nice, fleshed out, weighty sound to it. For myself, if i were to get new speakers I would lean towards the 802di or 805di with subwoofer. All in all, I really am digging this new B&W series.



Yes, a great new speaker line overall. Wonderful resolution and soundstage, though I have yet to have anything in my home that beats the WBs for a natural sounding midrange.


----------



## CLS

Congrats on the new additions Tim. I guess you have not posted any reviews or impressions yet. I heard the old 805 series couple of years ago and played very well with jazz genre IMO. Looking forward to your thoughts and comparisons with the WB Discovery.

Happy listening.


----------



## hifisponge

CLS -


I did post my early impressions of the 805Di's anc compared them to the WBs a page back.










Here ya go: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18425807


----------



## CLS

The price for the 805Di looks pretty good compared to similar high performance stand mounted ones such as from WB, Focals, Sonus Fabers, Dyns ....etc. Kudos to B&W! I've not listened to the newer 800 series but one thing I really like about B&W is that their cabinet has little or no noticeable resonant or distracting boxy sound so to speak (same goes for the lower end CM1). The only diamond tweet which I've heard is from the Signature Diamond(prototype version) which was extremely detailed. This gets me excited to go out and give the 805Di a listen.







Thanks again Tim.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/18483971
> 
> 
> The price for the 805Di looks pretty good compared to similar high performance stand mounted ones such as from WB, Focals, Sonus Fabers, Dyns ....etc. Kudos to B&W! I've not listened to the newer 800 series but one thing I really like about B&W is that their cabinet has little or no noticeable resonant or distracting boxy sound so to speak (same goes for the lower end CM1). The only diamond tweet which I've heard is from the Signature Diamond(prototype version) which was extremely detailed. This gets me excited to go out and give the 805Di a listen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again Tim.



Yes, as high-end stand mounts go, you could pay considerably more for a lot less. And to these ears, the 805Di are the not-so-baby brother to the Signature Diamonds. The only real difference is in the bass extension, which is still very competent on the 805Di.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18012520
> 
> 
> The manual EQ is only something that should be handling by someone that is experienced. I'm self taught, but also spent a fair amount of time consulting an acoustician. Yes the EQ is available for all channels. It would run you around $500-700 to have a pro perform the calibration.



FWIW, I just had my SSP-800 and my room "tuned" by a pro and it took about 3 hours and cost $375. Of course, depending on a room's needs, it may take longer or less time.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18469960
> 
> 
> I just listened to them so haven't posted thoughts anywhere. However as expected they were terrific. Had a very nice, fleshed out, weighty sound to it. For myself, if i were to get new speakers I would lean towards the 802di or 805di with subwoofer. All in all, I really am digging this new B&W series.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18469993
> 
> 
> Yes, a great new speaker line overall. Wonderful resolution and soundstage, though I have yet to have anything in my home that beats the WBs for a natural sounding midrange.



jeez guys, you're making me want to go over to DA for a listen...I must resist the temptation!


----------



## Djoel

Hey Tim what are you're going to use for the rear speakers...Or did I missed that in one of your post?



Djoel


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/18499949
> 
> 
> Hey Tim what are you're going to use for the rear speakers...Or did I missed that in one of your post?
> 
> 
> 
> Djoel



Hey DJ!


I'll be using another pair of 805Di for the rears, but one of the things I haven't mentioned yet, is that I've come up with a rather creative semi-custom wall-mount for them. Its a combination of articulating TV mount with a set of brackets I had custom made to fit the 805Dis. The TV mount I selected looks very similar in design and finish to the matching B&W stands for the fronts, and it also matches my Kuro TV mount.


I scoured the internet for a speaker wall mount that I could use, and while some were passable, most of them just look cheap as hell. I really wanted something that had the fit and finish that looked like it belonged with the 805Dis. As you know, I'm very particular about the details, so I just couldn't go with an off-the-shelf solution.










Here's a peek.











The custom L bracket I had made will attach to the wall mount in the above pic.


You'll notice that the TV mount uses oval tubing covered in the same matte textured black finish as the 805Di stands below.











Look for pictures in the upcoming weeks.


----------



## Djoel









AAAAh you're going to have 5K speakers on a mount 6 feet high?


Just the same way I would go










Djoel


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/18500125
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AAAAh you're going to have 5K speakers on a mount 6 feet high?
> 
> 
> Just the same way I would go
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Djoel



Identical speakers all around. That is the goal isn't it?


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18500227
> 
> 
> Identical speakers all around. That is the goal isn't it?





Sounds sweet Tim, sound sweet..











DJoel


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/18500506
> 
> 
> Sounds sweet Tim, sound sweet..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DJoel



The second set of 805Di's arrive on Monday, the HTM4Di center a week later, and the stands for the front a week after that.


----------



## KahunaCanuck

Amazing how time crawls like a little kid in school waiting for the summer when you have equipment ordered and on the way!


Lookin forward to seeing it complete!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KahunaCanuck* /forum/post/18507787
> 
> 
> Amazing how time crawls like a little kid in school waiting for the summer when you have equipment ordered and on the way!
> 
> 
> Lookin forward to seeing it complete!



Tell me about it. I've been stuck in the day before X-mas mindset for three months now!


----------



## hifisponge

Don't know if this pic will make much sense right now, but it is the start of my custom wall-mount project for the rear speakers.












I've punched so many holes in my rear wall over the years, that this time I wanted to try to use the existing holes from my last set of speakers. To do this, I decided to create a "plate" to cover the mounting holes from the last mount. It took several weeks of thinking of different solutions before it dawned on me that I wanted to try to mimic the look of the 805Di floor stands in the wall mount. So what you see above traced out in the piece of MDF is the "base" of the stand that will go against the wall. The articulating wall mount in the lower right of the pic will attach to this.


It will make more sense when the project comes along a bit further and I post more pics.


----------



## Djoel

Necessity is the mother of all invention, pretty creative I'll say.


Djoel


----------



## pbarcelo

First time posting but couldn't resist the thread.


Congratulations to Tim and his special quest to amazing sound.


I just happened to have owned a few of the pairs he has in the past. I've owened the old Kef Reference 201, a pair of Paradigm Signature 8's (also a pair or the old reference active 20 monitors) and now the Monitors's PL100.


All different and all very good speakers. My favorite ones may be the Paradigm's for all around music; very, very smooth and btw the towers are not overwhelming (sound wise). The Kefs were second and the Monitor's third. Amazing speakers the Monitors but so far they have not drawn me into the muscic like other speakers.


Anyway, I say that if you like imaging and texture, some words that seem to come back in your descriptions you should try Proacs. They are probably the most musical and better imaging speakers I've ever owned.


For now though, enjoy the new B&W that for sure are awoseme.


Cheers.


PD: Also positioning can greatly affect imaging.


----------



## hifisponge

pbarcelo -


Thanks for stopping in to share your experiences in my humble little thread.










In the world of high-end speakers, the Paradigm brand is very under-rated. I think that because they don't have the prestige of the high-end name, they are automatically placed into the lower ranks. But the truth is, they are great all around speakers that put many high-end brands to shame.


Proac is a name that comes up often when I descibe the sound I like. Thanks for reaffirming that.


For me, the PL300's were seductive in their retrevial of detail, but there was a forward quality to the midrange that I found wearing, and with my limited placement options, I was not able to space them far enough apart to get a good sized soundstage out of them.


The B&W's also have amazing detail, a broad soundstage and outstanding imaging, though they are a touch too etched / sharp sounding, so in the future, I think I'll see what I can do with the prepro / amp to take the edge off.


----------



## hifisponge

Made some progress on my custom wall mount project for the B&W 805Di's that I'll be using for my surround channels.


I took the templates for the wall-plates (shown a few posts back) to a friend up the street who's a cabinet maker to have them cut. Over the past couple of days I've done my best to try to match the textured matte finish of the dedicated 805Di floorstands. Thankfully, the local hardware store sells a couple of different textured spray paints, which got me most of the way there, but the texture was a bit too rough, so I tried to knock it down with some very fine sandpaper. I was a bit heavy handed with the sanding the first time, so I had to reapply the texture a second time and sand lightly over that. Anyway, I've got the texture as close as I can, but I think I might have to change from a satin black paint to flat black to get the finish closer to the look of the stands.


Here's where the wall-plates are at right now.











The piece on the right will attach to the wall, and the piece on the left goes over the top of that to hide the mounting screws and the speaker wire channel. The two will be held together by attaching the articulating mount to the face of the top piece, creating a sandwich of sorts.


Here are the two pieces temporarily screwed together.










I'm still waiting on the custom L brackets to finish the job. Should get those early next week.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18526493
> 
> 
> Made some progress on my custom wall mount project for the B&W 805Di's that I'll be using for my surround channels.
> 
> 
> I took the templates for the wall-plates (shown a few posts back) to a friend up the street who's a cabinet maker to have them cut. Over the past couple of days I've done my best to try to match the textured matte finish of the dedicated 805Di floorstands. Thankfully, the local hardware store sells a couple of different textured spray paints, which got me most of the way there, but the texture was a bit too rough, so I tried to knock it down with some very fine sandpaper. I was a bit heavy handed with the sanding the first time, so I had to reapply the texture a second time and sand lightly over that. Anyway, I've got the texture as close as I can, but I think I might have to change from a satin black paint to flat black to get the finish closer to the look of the stands.
> 
> 
> Here's where the wall-plates are at right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The piece on the right will attach to the wall, and the piece on the left goes over the top of that to hide the mounting screws and the speaker wire channel. The two will be held together by attaching the articulating mount to the face of the top piece, creating a sandwich of sorts.
> 
> 
> Here are the two pieces temporarily screwed together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still waiting on the custom L brackets to finish the job. Should get those early next week.



Wow Tim! Quite OCD but this is great. It's going to look fantastic once you have your 5.1 setup, all in black.


----------



## Bigred7078

Lookin good Tim


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18528417
> 
> 
> Wow Tim! Quite OCD but this is great. It's going to look fantastic once you have your 5.1 setup, all in black.



OCD, yes. Though I prefer to think of myself as detail-oriented.










About the all in black thing. It's funny, because I've never been much of a fan of all black components. Even though black has been the trend for the past few years, I just find most of the stuff lacking in visual character / interest. Throughout my years in this hobby I would often seek out pieces that were anything but black, so this would seem to be a 180 degree change in aesthetics for me. However, the fit, finish and design of the current pieces I've chosen this time around transcend the blandness of most of the plain black boxes out there. I think they do anyway.










I was somewhat inspired by the current trend in custom automobiles to go monochrome right down to the rims.


Like this:


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18528706
> 
> 
> OCD, yes. Though I prefer to think of myself as detail-oriented.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About the all in black thing. It's funny, because I've never been much of a fan of all black components. Even though black has been the trend for the past few years, I just find most of the stuff lacking in visual character / interest. Throughout my years in this hobby I would often seek out pieces that were anything but black, so this would seem to be a 180 degree change in aesthetics for me. However, the fit, finish and design of the current pieces I've chosen this time around transcend the blandness of most of the plain black boxes out there. I think they do anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was somewhat inspired by the current trend in custom automobiles to go monochrome right down to the rims.
> 
> 
> Like this:



You know what this means... Classe SSP and Amplifier in the CT series. Although after your capital outlay, you might be close to buying that black porsche.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18529337
> 
> 
> You know what this means... Classe SSP and Amplifier in the CT series. Although after your capital outlay, you might be close to buying that black porsche.



Maybe, but I've had my eye the new Primare prepro for a while.











I have a thing for Euro design, particularly the simplicty of Scandinavian design. It's supposed to sound damn good too. The only bummer is the lack of EQ. I may be able to work around that though.


----------



## chjo100

You'll have to let me know what you think of the Primare. I listened to it several times but was underwhelmed. I thought it was much too warm obscuring detail, but to be honest, most music to I've auditioned in that room tended to sound not too great (lots of speakers, no room treatments, switch that connects to tons of components etc...) Will be great to hear how it sounds in a better environment.


----------



## hifisponge

Made a bit more progress on my 805Di wall mount project.


Here are the holes from my previous wall mounts:










The back-plate I created to cover them:










The top-plate to cover that:










Next the articulating mount is put in place:










which are made by the same company as my TV mount:










and one last pic of the pair:










The custom L brackets also came in the mail today and I've started the paint work on them. Pics tomorrow.


----------



## hifisponge

Oh yeah, and the HTM4Di arrived earlier this week too.





























Still waiting on stands for the L/R speakers. Should be here by the end of next week.


----------



## KahunaCanuck

Wow!


Those are some sexy curves Tim!











Lookin good!










Mike


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kahunacanuck* /forum/post/18562351
> 
> 
> wow!
> 
> 
> Those are some sexy curves tim!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lookin good! :d
> 
> 
> mike


----------



## adidino

Looking good Tim!


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks Tony. It's still not much to look at right now, but I figured I'd show the build as it progresses.


----------



## Bigred7078

Awesome!!! Nice to see things coming together


----------



## pcweber111

I personally can't wait to see how the speakers are going to look once mounted. Excellent work so far!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pcweber111* /forum/post/18567042
> 
> 
> I personally can't wait to see how the speakers are going to look once mounted. Excellent work so far!



I know, me too. I wish it didn't take days for paint to cure, or they would be mounted right now!










Here's a shot of the custom brackets I had made by an on-line machine shop. Man we are lucky to access to this sort of stuff these days via the internet.


----------



## hifisponge

Well, the paint finally cured on my wall brackets and I was very excited to finally mount the rear speakers, but ...


...the brackets are not sturdy enough to hold the somewhat largish 805Dis. I got one of the speakers up and the bracket was flexing under the load. Damn!


But what's worse is that I underestimated just how big the 805Dis look when mounted on the wall. They look friggin' huge! With the depth of the speaker combined with the depth of the mount, they stick out 21" from the wall. That's almost 2 feet!


My wife is pretty forgiving when it comes to my infatuation with this hobby, but when she saw the 805Di looming off the back wall she kinda freaked. And I don't blame her, they look rather imposing back there.


These pics don't show the scale of the speaker in person, but the second one gives you a vague idea of how far the speaker sticks out from the wall.




















So it's back to the drawing board as to what to do with the rear speakers. Do I order a stronger bracket and hope that my wife and I get used to the how big they look? Do I go with in-walls and give up on having matching speakers all around? What to do, what to do?


----------



## pcweber111

Ah yeah I can definitely see the dilemma. Hmm, not too sure since those are fairly deep speakers. You might have to bite the bullet and get in-walls. I understand the hesitation though as the sound won't be nearly as full but you do have waf to consider. If I can think of something I'll share it.


----------



## Bigred7078

why not just place them on stands on either side of your couch?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bigred7078* /forum/post/18575137
> 
> 
> why not just place them on stands on either side of your couch?



Thanks for the suggestion BigRed.










Unfortunately I long ago had to rule out that sort of placement of any surround speakers in my room. My couch is just three feet from the back wall and placing speakers on stands behind the couch would put them under two feet from the listening position, which makes the sound coming from them distracting. You would think that you could just adjust the trim level down for the surrounds, but in reality all that does is collapse the sound stage and they still sound too close.


----------



## adidino




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18575236
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion BigRed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I long ago had to rule out that sort of placement of any surround speakers in my room. My couch is just three feet from the back wall and placing speakers on stands behind the couch would put them under two feet from the listening position, which makes the sound coming from them distracting. You would think that you could just adjust the trim level down for the surrounds, but in reality all that does is collapse the sound stage and they still sound too close.



I would go with these Tim....

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=2044


----------



## pbarcelo

Looking at your room, which is awesome by the way, you've got very little space for placement of monitors let alone a pair of the new 805 Diamonds. You won't even be able to point them properly towards you!


Maybe you don't like this answer but it looks like you are prime candidate for in-walls or in-celings.


If I were in you situation, I would get a pair of the top of the line B&W in walls. Maybe a pair of CWM 7.4's, whichs seems like the new medium sized top of the line


I have a pair of Signature 7NT for surrounds as well as the Signature 8NT as a center channel. They do not disapoint. The bass response is better on the 7NT than on my Monitor Audio PL100!!! and the highs are extended and smooth.


Unless you are listening to a lot of SACDs in 5.1, and even then it's doubtfull, you will not necessarely be getting much better sound (considering the placement) from the 805 Di's thant with a top of the line in wall. It just seems like such a waste of speaker for such duty.


Just my 2 cents and IMHO.


Good luck!


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks for the suggestions guys. My concern with the B&W in-walls that none of them use drivers that are a match for those used in the new Diamond line. I know that many people in the hobby are willing to throw just about any old speaker in the back and call it a day, but I'm a firm believer that if you really want to create and acoustic bubble, all of the speakers in a surround system should match, or at the least, use the same drivers. In fact, I've never owned a surround speaker set that didn't use surround speakers from the same family as the fronts.


But there is another issue at play here too. Shortly after I got the Diamonds, I gave a short review in which I said this: "All wasn't perfect though. My last system, the Wilson Benesch / Classe rig, had a smoothness / naturalness that sounded closer to "real" than anything else I've owned. The sound of that system could be a bit to withdrawn at times, but it was always pleasant. The B&W 805Di / Denon combo is a more vivid and digital sounding presentation. The vivid part I like, the digital part, not so much. It's not offensive, but there is that fine grain to the sound that subconsciously reminds me that I'm listening to a recording. So, if after I take the the time to get the EQ dialed in and everything set-up properly, and after I live with the sound for a while, if the digititus still bothers me, I may look for a prepro that is a bit smoother."


Its been a month since I wrote that, and I was hoping that once the speakers settled in and once I got everything set-up properly that things would smooth out a bit, but it hasn't. This vivid, etched sound, while impressive at times, sounds too artificial to me. So at this point I need to see if changing the front end will help. If it doesn't, then this along with the problem with the rear speaker placement may push me towards looking at a different set of speakers. Yup, I said it. Yet another round of speakers.







I'm not there yet, but it is one of the options I have to consider.


----------



## adidino




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18577197
> 
> 
> if it doesn't, then this along with the problem with the rear speaker placement may push me towards looking at a different set of speakers. Yup, i said it. Yet another round of speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not there yet, but it is one of the options i have to consider.



d-a-l-i


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/18577252
> 
> 
> d-a-l-i



You know I'm a fan. ..... if they only came in black.


----------



## Mr_Superstar

I know this has been suggested a number of times.. but if you find that a new front-end doesn't quite do it for you, why not give some Salks a try? They keep their resale value very well, so you'd be able to sell them and not take much of a hit if they didn't work out. You can also get them in black.. or piano black if you're willing to pay for it.


Of course, I own a full 5.1 Salk lineup, so I'm somewhat biased.


----------



## adidino




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18577721
> 
> 
> You know I'm a fan. ..... if they only came in black.



Dali 400mk2 Special Edition.. black gloss baby..


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/18578426
> 
> 
> Dali 400mk2 Special Edition.. black gloss baby..



So I guess I'll have to get five of them and strap two of them to the back wall. The wife is going to love that!


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18577197
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions guys. My concern with the B&W in-walls that none of them use drivers that are a match for those used in the new Diamond line. I know that many people in the hobby are willing to throw just about any old speaker in the back and call it a day, but I'm a firm believer that if you really want to create and acoustic bubble, all of the speakers in a surround system should match, or at the least, use the same drivers. In fact, I've never owned a surround speaker set that didn't use surround speakers from the same family as the fronts.
> 
> 
> But there is another issue at play here too. Shortly after I got the Diamonds, I gave a short review in which I said this: "All wasn't perfect though. My last system, the Wilson Benesch / Classe rig, had a smoothness / naturalness that sounded closer to "real" than anything else I've owned. The sound of that system could be a bit to withdrawn at times, but it was always pleasant. The B&W 805Di / Denon combo is a more vivid and digital sounding presentation. The vivid part I like, the digital part, not so much. It's not offensive, but there is that fine grain to the sound that subconsciously reminds me that I'm listening to a recording. So, if after I take the the time to get the EQ dialed in and everything set-up properly, and after I live with the sound for a while, if the digititus still bothers me, I may look for a prepro that is a bit smoother."
> 
> 
> Its been a month since I wrote that, and I was hoping that once the speakers settled in and once I got everything set-up properly that things would smooth out a bit, but it hasn't. This vivid, etched sound, while impressive at times, sounds too artificial to me. So at this point I need to see if changing the front end will help. If it doesn't, then this along with the problem with the rear speaker placement may push me towards looking at a different set of speakers. Yup, I said it. Yet another round of speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not there yet, but it is one of the options I have to consider.



Hey Tim,


Just curious but did you find the same "digital" sound with the HK receiver? Also what do you consider more "real". I know there are some presentations that are "they are here" versus "you are there". I'm guessing real to your ears is more of the latter but wondering if you do manage to solve the "digititis" and keep the vivid presentation whether you would be more satisfied or equally satisfied as your old system. Just some questions I had as I read through your dilemna.


BTW Tony, posted in the Dali forum but finally managed to hear some high end floor standing Dali's. Great stuff!


----------



## adidino




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18578463
> 
> 
> So I guess I'll have to get five of them and strap two of them to the back wall. The wife is going to love that!



ahhh.. so I guess you haven't seen my black IW200 inwall with phantom phrame which makes them on wall..


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18578516
> 
> 
> Hey Tim,
> 
> 
> Just curious but did you find the same "digital" sound with the HK receiver? Also what do you consider more "real". I know there are some presentations that are "they are here" versus "you are there". I'm guessing real to your ears is more of the latter but wondering if you do manage to solve the "digititis" and keep the vivid presentation whether you would be more satisfied or equally satisfied as your old system. Just some questions I had as I read through your dilemna.



You know, I haven't tried the HK AVR with the B&Ws, but I did hear the granular / digital sound when the HK was paired up with the Cantons. Some other ways to put it would be etched, granular, and sometimes edgy or dissonant. I hear this quality mainly with vocals, but it can also be a strident quality on strings and horns. I think the cause can be attributed both the speakers and the front end (and the recording of course).


It has been my experience that hard driver materials (aluminum, titanium, Beryllium, etc) tend to emphasize it, which can be minimized with a warm / smooth sounding front-end, particulary tubed gear. I rarely hear it on speakers with soft domes and poly or doped paper cones, but the trade off is usually some loss of resolution. Since I can't do tubes in an HT set-up, I usually go with the compromise of soft driver materials.


Ideally, if I could get a smooth sounding midrange with the resolution I have now with the B&Ws, I would have a better sounding system than I had with the WB / Classe. And that was my hope for the diamond tweeter. To get improved resolution without the edgy artifice. What I am hearing right now is certainly better than the Focals, Revels, and Monitor Audios, but the granular quality is still there and I find it distracting.


I think that there is a good chance that what I'm hearing through my current system is what is on the recording, warts and all. I need to try a different front end to be sure, but the one thing that concerns me is that over the past month I've been speaking with different people about the matter and the consensus is that the Denon I have is aready on the warm / smooth side of the fence.


When I refer to a "real" sound, I'm mainly refering to tone, as opposed to ambiance or recreating the recording space (the B&Ws do well with the later). With vocals in particular, my reference is reality-- how people sound when speaking in every day conversations.


I've been down this road before (how quickly I forget







). In fact when I went nuts a year back trying to assemble the "most accurate" system I could, I finally got it via the Revels / Classe, but I traded the Revels away for the WBs because they were more enjoyable to listen to. With the Revels, I could hear every detail in every recording, but they always sounded like recordings. With the WBs there was some loss of detail, but put on a well-recorded vocal track or instrumental peice and that performer sounded like they were in the room.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/18578588
> 
> 
> ahhh.. so I guess you haven't seen my black IW200 inwall with phantom phrame which makes them on wall..



Very nice. Did you frame those out yourself?


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18579190
> 
> 
> You know, I haven't tried the HK AVR with the B&Ws, but I did hear the granular / digital sound when the HK was paired up with the Cantons. Some other ways to put it would be etched, granular, and sometimes edgy or dissonant. I hear this quality mainly with vocals, but it can also be a strident quality on strings and horns. I think the cause can be attributed both the speakers and the front end (and the recording of course).
> 
> 
> It has been my experience that hard driver materials (aluminum, titanium, Beryllium, etc) tend to emphasize it, which can be minimized with a warm / smooth sounding front-end, particulary tubed gear. I rarely hear it on speakers with soft domes and poly or doped paper cones, but the trade off is usually some loss of resolution. Since I can't do tubes in an HT set-up, I usually go with the compromise of soft driver materials.
> 
> 
> Ideally, if I could get a smooth sounding midrange with the resolution I have now with the B&Ws, I would have a better sounding system than I had with the WB / Classe. And that was my hope for the diamond tweeter. To get improved resolution without the edgy artifice. What I am hearing right now is certainly better than the Focals, Revels, and Monitor Audios, but the granular quality is still there and I find it distracting.
> 
> 
> I think that there is a good chance that what I'm hearing through my current system is what is on the recording, warts and all. I need to try a different front end to be sure, but the one thing that concerns me is that over the past month I've been speaking with different people about the matter and the consensus is that the Denon I have is aready on the warm / smooth side of the fence.
> 
> 
> When I refer to a "real" sound, I'm mainly refering to tone, as opposed to ambiance or recreating the recording space (the B&Ws do well with the later). With vocals in particular, my reference is reality-- how people sound when speaking in every day conversations.
> 
> 
> I've been down this road before (how quickly I forget
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). In fact when I went nuts a year back trying to assemble the "most accurate" system I could, I finally got it via the Revels / Classe, but I traded the Revels away for the WBs because they were more enjoyable to listen to. With the Revels, I could hear every detail in every recording, but they always sounded like recordings. With the WBs there was some loss of detail, but put on a well-recorded vocal track or instrumental peice and that performer sounded like they were in the room.



Thanks Tim,


The explanation actually was very helpful to put your goal in perspective. Although what you describe seems to be the search for a perfect system. Superior resolution without the trade offs. I think with tubed gear you may have to sacrifice some bass even if you could set this up, there probably would be a trade off. I use an AMT tweeter speaker and love the resolution but do get that slight etch on the occasional recording. To combat this I tried several things. Right now, I use mac mini into a firewire dac into a tube preamp and use the Amarra software program. It did get me 90% there and very happy with my 2 channel setup. But I do hear that occasional "edge" as you describe it. To be rid of it would be audio nirvana.


I think Tony might be right. Dali's might be a good fit. I was in the bay area this weekend and got a visit a really cool audio shop and what you describe seems like the sound I heard from the Dali Euphonia M5. Though I think your B&W's imaging is better than what I heard (wonderfully resolute but somewhat diffuse imaging). It was slightly laid back, but very engaging.


Actually one speaker that blew me away which doesn't happen often was a speaker called the Raidho from Denmark. It had ceramic woofers, with a ribbon tweeter, but it did not sound like any ribbon tweeter I have ever heard. The sound was truly captivating, but then again it cost 35,000 dollars and was connected to 80,000 of naim electronics. I also got to hear Quad speakers for the first time. I wish I had the chance to hear the Rockport Mirra's but they were not available to setup.


On your description of reference as reality, how can this be achieved if everything we are listening to is recorded (subject to microphone, ambience, etc...). If the Revel/Classe reproduced accurately what was recorded, do you mean you now want to veer from absolute neutrality and color the sound to achieve a sound that is like real life conversation? Sorry, I don't know much about the subject but just questions that run through my mind.


It'll be interesting where you go from here. I'll be watching with keen interest. I don't know where you find the energy


----------



## adidino




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18579195
> 
> 
> Very nice. Did you frame those out yourself?



Nope.. That's an option from Dali. I just needed to spray them black.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/18579418
> 
> 
> Nope.. That's an option from Dali. I just needed to spray them black.



Nice. I wish my surround speaker projects were that easy.


----------



## Djoel

Hey Tim can I have your 805di ? I Kidd..


Seriously sorry to hear you're hearing that etching digital harshness...I hope it's a processing issue, and not the speakers.


Man that center channel is to die for, I wish the older version looked and where as asymmetrical as this one ( with the two ports on each side







!)


Djoel


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/18585087
> 
> 
> Hey Tim can I have your 805di ? I Kidd..
> 
> 
> Seriously sorry to hear you're hearing that etching digital harshness...I hope it's a processing issue, and not the speakers.
> 
> 
> Man that center channel is to die for, I wish the older version looked and where as asymmetrical as this one ( with the two ports on each side
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !)
> 
> 
> Djoel



DJ, I like the way you think. Here I thought I was the only person that noticed / cared about details like the symmetrical look of the dual ports on the HTM4.










It does look so much better than the old design doesn't it?


B&W really did a great job in updating the cosmetics of the 800 series. The lines of the speaker were already classic, but was all of the flat black, rubberized trim and finishing touches that were looking very mid 90's.










I've been meaning to ask if moving from the Dali's to the B&Ws had to require some period of adjustment for you? Those are two very different sounding speakers.


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18585640
> 
> 
> DJ, I like the way you think. Here I thought I was the only person that noticed / cared about details like the symmetrical look of the dual ports on the HTM4.



I don't date a lady unless her toes are asymmetrically down the line, among other things







..Is that sick?











> Quote:
> It does look so much better than the old design doesn't it?



A million times better, but it seemed like it didn't bother many folks, or were left with little choices..I never consider the single mid driver until now.



> Quote:
> B&W really did a great job in updating the cosmetics of the 800 series. The lines of the speaker were already classic, but was all of the flat black, rubberized trim and finishing touches that were looking very mid 90's.



The B&W design team is on point, in the cosmetic department Fo Sho..I just need to go and get a listen







so I can have an opinion about the SQ..




> Quote:
> I've been meaning to ask if moving from the Dali's to the B&Ws had to require some period of adjustment for you? Those are two very different sounding speakers.



Hmm, as much as I love the Dali's sweet mellow sounds I love the 802n's even more...

I purchased a few jazz sacd's today, the imaging of these speakers are so amazing, Just pure magic...I was fiddling on the floor( not ideal listening position) close around 2 feet away from the speakers and it seems like I had a center channel going. I don't recall ever hearing that with the Dali's, one would pull me in and the other would collapse. I know I haven't answered your question







but I'm having a great time with these speakers.. I don't know much about the tweeter on the 802, cost related, etc. compare the hybrid tweeters on the Helicon 400 all I can say they are both top notch..It's a two different roads leading to the same destinations deal here.



Dj


----------



## hifisponge

DJ -


Yes, the BWs, with their free floating tweeter and super low diffraction cabinets are imaging champs. I'm glad to hear that you made an easy transition from the warm, smooth Dali's to the vivid and extroverted BWs.










- TW


----------



## hifisponge

For some reason I just can't take a decent picture with my point and shoot camera these days, but I finally got the stands in for the front speakers.


----------



## Djoel

I don't see anything wrong with photos, from this end it looks great...I love the minimalist look which I find myself struggling with so much










DJoel


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/18587195
> 
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with photos, from this end it looks great...I love the minimalist look which I find myself struggling with so much
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DJoel



Thanks DJ.










You know, even though they are small, I'm telling ya, modern day stand mount speakers paired with a sub can easily fill an average room with full-range sound at levels that are certainly high enough to impress your friends. I watched Sherlock Holmes the other night and it was a wall-to-wall suround sound spectacular! Awesome soundtrack on that movie by the way.


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18588869
> 
> 
> Thanks DJ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, even though they are small, I'm telling ya, modern day stand mount speakers paired with a sub can easily fill an average room with full-range sound at levels that are certainly high enough to impress your friends. I watched Sherlock Holmes the other night and it was a wall-to-wall suround sound spectacular! Awesome soundtrack on that movie by the way.




I remember reading an article in some stereophile mag some years ago, were the writer was saying how even so a great bookshelves sub combo would out do a full range speaker system.

I believe the author was review a pair of Sonus Faber speakers, and Rel sub.


I was always fascinate by that, but was concerned by my past brief encounters w/ Bookshelves units without reinforcement ( shy in the lower regions).


I guess I shouldn't be worries by that now, owning a JL Audio sub just the integration of the two..I guess there's always something.










Yes excellent flick, I should be getting Saving Private Ryan on BR any day now that should be interesting as well in your system.


Djoel


----------



## hifisponge

I went to the local hi-fi shop tonight with the goal of listening to several different AVRs and prepros.


First, I must say that it was enlightening to say the least. I've never been one to hear large differences between different pieces of front end gear. That changed tonight.


So first up was the Denon AVR4310 vs the Arcam AVR500, connected to Monitor Audio RX8s. Listening was done blind with instant switching between the two performed by the salesman. Within just a couple of switches back and forth, I was surprised to clearly and easily hear a difference, and it was always in favor of the Arcam. The Arcam sounded fuller and more harmonically complete while the Denon sounded comparatively thin and electronic. At this point I was thinking damn, I'm going to have to replace the Denon AVR5308 that I just bought.


Except ....


That this changed entirely when I went to the next demo room over and listened to the Denon AVR5308, the Arcam AVR600, the Primare SPA22 AVR, and the Primare SP32 / Primare 5CH amp. This time the gear was powering Martin Logan Vistas and later a pair of Sonus Faber Liutos. Testing was still blind and the salesman did the switching on command.


The first comparison was between the Denon AVR5308 and the Primare SPA22 AVR. Again the differences were easily noticeable and easily repeatable. However, much to my surprise I consistently chose the Denon as my favorite between these two. The 5308 sounded much like the Arcam in the previous room. Nicely fleshed out, smooth and balanced. The Primare sounded mid-forward and borderline brash at times. I wasn't expecting that considering what I've read about the Primare house sound.


Then I compared the Denon AVR5308 to the Arcam AVR600. This was a closer call and I had to take a break to clear my mind about 15 minutes in. During the first listening session I flip-flopped between the two as to which I preferred. They both sounded quite good, but one sounded more forward through the upper mids, and a bit more "open". The other in comparison was either neutral or a little recessed though the mids depending on the song. When I came back from the break, my preference became clear when I chose music tracks that already had good presence through the mids. On these tracks the forward/open AVR became a bit aggressive. This turned out to be the Arcam AVR600. The bass on the Denon was also fuller, warmer. I could see someone picking either of these depending on the type of sound they were after but I preferred the slightly laid-back, richer bass presentation of the Denon. It sounded less forced to me.


Finally I listened the Primare separates vs the Denon 5308. Again, no contest, I always chose the Denon. The Primare still sounded forward / brash through the mids.


Oh yeah, when I switched to the Sonus Fabers, of course the character of the overall sound changed, but the sound of each of the AVRs remained the same and still chose the Denon as my favorite. The Arcam was still slightly mid forward and the Primare was forward / brash.


So it seems that I really lucked out on my purchase of the Denon AVR5308. I liked it the best out of all of the AVRs I listened to today, and it is in my experience on the smooth / warm side, at least in comparison to the Arcam and Primare.


It was enlightening for me to have gained such clarity on the subject of differences in sound quality between different electronics. I am a changed man and never again will I say that "all amps sound the same".


----------



## pcweber111

Well, I can definitely attest to Denon receivers as I've owned my 4802 for a number of years now. It's time to upgrade though and I was pretty set on a 4806 but that fell through and now I'm in full on research mode. I'm glad you were able to make a purchase in the fashion you did; not too many are allowed to do that. Don't be stingy with the updates to how it's working for you.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pcweber111* /forum/post/18591972
> 
> 
> Well, I can definitely attest to Denon receivers as I've owned my 4802 for a number of years now. It's time to upgrade though and I was pretty set on a 4806 but that fell through and now I'm in full on research mode. I'm glad you were able to make a purchase in the fashion you did; not too many are allowed to do that. Don't be stingy with the updates to how it's working for you.



Based on my experience yesterday, I would highly recommend looking into an Arcam AVR if you are considering AVRs in the price range of the Denon 48XX series.


And of course I'll keep posting any time I have something worth sharing.


----------



## Mr_Superstar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18591927
> 
> 
> I went to the local hi-fi shop tonight with the goal of listening to several different AVRs and prepros.
> 
> 
> First, I must say that it was enlightening to say the least. I've never been one to hear large differences between different pieces of front end gear. That changed tonight.
> 
> 
> So first up was the Denon AVR4310 vs the Arcam AVR500, connected to Monitor Audio RX8s. Listening was done blind with instant switching between the two performed by the salesman. Within just a couple of switches back and forth, I was surprised to clearly and easily hear a difference, and it was always in favor of the Arcam. The Arcam sounded fuller and more harmonically complete while the Denon sounded comparatively thin and electronic. At this point I was thinking damn, I'm going to have to replace the Denon AVR5308 that I just bought.
> 
> 
> Except ....
> 
> 
> That this changed entirely when I went to the next demo room over and listened to the Denon AVR5308, the Arcam AVR600, the Primare SPA22 AVR, and the Primare SP32 / Primare 5CH amp. This time the gear was powering Martin Logan Vistas and later a pair of Sonus Faber Liutos. Testing was still blind and the salesman did the switching on command.
> 
> 
> The first comparison was between the Denon AVR5308 and the Primare SPA22 AVR. Again the differences were easily noticeable and easily repeatable. However, much to my surprise I consistently chose the Denon as my favorite between these two. The 5308 sounded much like the Arcam in the previous room. Nicely fleshed out, smooth and balanced. The Primare sounded mid-forward and borderline brash at times. I wasn't expecting that considering what I've read about the Primare house sound.
> 
> 
> Then I compared the Denon AVR5308 to the Arcam AVR600. This was a closer call and I had to take a break to clear my mind about 15 minutes in. During the first listening session I flip-flopped between the two as to which I preferred. They both sounded quite good, but one sounded more forward through the upper mids, and a bit more "open". The other in comparison was either neutral or a little recessed though the mids depending on the song. When I came back from the break, my preference became clear when I chose music tracks that already had good presence through the mids. On these tracks the forward/open AVR became a bit aggressive. This turned out to be the Arcam AVR600. The bass on the Denon was also fuller, warmer. I could see someone picking either of these depending on the type of sound they were after but I preferred the slightly laid-back, richer bass presentation of the Denon. It sounded less forced to me.
> 
> 
> Finally I listened the Primare separates vs the Denon 5308. Again, no contest, I always chose the Denon. The Primare still sounded forward / brash through the mids.
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, when I switched to the Sonus Fabers, of course the character of the overall sound changed, but the sound of each of the AVRs remained the same and still chose the Denon as my favorite. The Arcam was still slightly mid forward and the Primare was forward / brash.
> 
> 
> So it seems that I really lucked out on my purchase of the Denon AVR5308. I liked it the best out of all of the AVRs I listened to today, and it is in my experience on the smooth / warm side, at least in comparison to the Arcam and Primare.
> 
> 
> It was enlightening for me to have gained such clarity on the subject of differences in sound quality between different electronics. I am a changed man and never again will I say that "all amps sound the same".



I'm glad you seemed to have a pretty good experience. However, I have to ask, are you sure the EQ's and modes were turned off on each of the AVR/prepros you listened too?


While I'm not doubting you heard differences, I just want to make sure it's because there is a character difference between the units that isn't due to post-processing of the signal.


----------



## hifisponge

Yes, I made certain that all of the AVRs / prepros were running in straight stereo, with no processing. Not even a crossover.


----------



## Fanaticalism

Well Tim, you know most will say that these were not level matched, and that the differences you heard could merely be that of volume change which may accentuate or emphasize particular aspects of a track.










In seriousness, it is possible that the changes in volume could be the main differences, but I also believe that receivers/pres can sound different. With amps though, it is much harder for me to hear the differences and am unsure if they are in fact real, or imagined.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fanaticalism* /forum/post/18597241
> 
> 
> Well Tim, you know most will say that these were not level matched, and that the differences you heard could merely be that of volume change which may accentuate or emphasize particular aspects of a track.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In seriousness, it is possible that the changes in volume could be the main differences, but I also believe that receivers/pres can sound different. With amps though, it is much harder for me to hear the differences and am unsure if they are in fact real, or imagined.



While the salesman did his best to level match the two AVRs being compared, it wasn't a perfect match. But I'm telling ya, it didn't matter if one was slightly louder than the other. I could consistently pick which was which.


For instance, the Arcam sounded more forward through the mids, which made it sound louder than the Denon, but even when I asked him to increase the level of the Denon, I could still tell the difference between the two.


And this is coming from a guy was once a dedicated objectivist. Not too long ago it was all about the measurements for me. If you look at the specs on virtually any decent AVR / pre, they all have flat frequency response, low distortion, low noise, etc. And based on that, they should all sound the same.


But, Im with you for the moment on amps. I went through a bunch a little over a year ago and if there was a difference between them, I wasn't able to hear it. I think I needed a way to switch between them more quickly though. So I'll put my official opinion of amp sound on hold for now.


----------



## pbarcelo

HI again Tim,


Back to the drawing board? From what I've read you pretty much have the right receiver, closest to your liking. As a consequence you only have two choices, changing the Diamonds (oh my good!!!!...) or doing something that a few enthusiast have done after being unable to find "their" perfect sound with a receiver.


That is, having a good integraded amp for hifi and the receiver for home theatre. Yes it's complicated, yes it doesn't solve the problem in 5.1 or movies but you'll get top stereo if that's what you're after. INMHO there has not been a receiver (or pre/pro + amp) that can match a top of the line stereo integrated, let alone separates.


Furthermore this opens the field to finding a perfect match that will let you keep the resolution of the B&W and "melow" is digital nature. The obvious route would be tubes, maybe something quite transparent (for tubes) such as a BAT, which I have personally heard with a pair of 803D with superb results.


The otre option is selling the Diamonds...mmmmm...I think I've seen a very nice pair in 'gon...










...now that I think about it...this IS the ever-changing system!


Cheers


----------



## Fanaticalism

I recommend you listen to Cremona Auditor M, Tim. They are similar to VA with greater resolution and bass response, with a much larger soundstage.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fanaticalism* /forum/post/18600817
> 
> 
> I recommend you listen to Cremona Auditor M, Tim. They are similar to VA with greater resolution and bass response, with a much larger soundstage.



They are second on my list.










Dynaudio C1 first.


When did you listen to the M's?


----------



## Fanaticalism




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18600980
> 
> 
> They are second on my list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dynaudio C1 first.
> 
> 
> When did you listen to the M's?



A friend of mine actually has a pair. Also has a pair of Guarneri (the originals) with a AVP2, ML DAC, ML Amp. He actually used to work for Tweeter so he got some pretty good pricing.


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18600980
> 
> 
> They are second on my list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dynaudio C1 first.



I am sorry to hear that the 805DI didn't work out well for you, Tim. What was the reason for moving away from the WB discoveries if you don't mind me asking? I've listened to the Discoveries briefly driven by Gamut electronics with lots of details but sounded a bit on the clinical side IMO. Perhaps the Classe would be a better match for these speakers???


C1s are well rounded speakers with excellent transparency and musicality. One of the top speakers in my experiences that play classical music extremely well. Other speakers which would be more favorable and stood out from my listening sessions would be from Verity Audio Parsifal, Audio Physics Virgo, Sonus Faber Elipsa and Audio Note (??)speakers. The performance differences could be in the 5-10% between these speakers but their price differences compared to the C1 are substantial. I would say for me the C1 is hard to beat at this price point.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/18608133
> 
> 
> I am sorry to hear that the 805DI didn't work out well for you, Tim. What was the reason for moving away from the WB discoveries if you don't mind me asking? I've listened to the Discoveries briefly driven by Gamut electronics with lots of details but sounded a bit on the clinical side IMO. Perhaps the Classe would be a better match for these speakers???
> 
> 
> C1s are well rounded speakers with excellent transparency and musicality. One of the top speakers in my experiences that play classical music extremely well. Other speakers which would be more favorable and stood out from my listening sessions would be from Verity Audio Parsifal, Audio Physics Virgo, Sonus Faber Elipsa and Audio Note (??)speakers. The performance differences could be in the 5-10% between these speakers but their price differences compared to the C1 are substantial. I would say for me the C1 is hard to beat at this price point.



It's no big deal about the B&Ws not working out, though I really do need to learn to be more patient and not go buying five speakers until I've lived with the stereo pair for a while.










And to be honest, I'm being pretty picky. The B&Ws are by most accounts fantastic speakers, but yes, the WB + Classe was a fantastic sounding combo and I've been spoiled by that.


My initial reason for stepping away from the WB / Classe system was based on me thinking that I didn't need such an expensive system. So my plan was to scale back. But the AV bug is just too deep in my blood it seems and I find I'm already climbing back up the $$ ladder.


One of the speakers I've been considering is the Audio Physic Tempo. Have you heard this model? If not, how would you describe the Virgo? Was the Virgo you listened to the one with the HD Cone tweeter? What was the front-end paired with the Virgo?


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18609009
> 
> 
> One of the speakers I've been considering is the Audio Physic Tempo. Have you heard this model? If not, how would you describe the Virgo? Was the Virgo you listened to the one with the HD Cone tweeter? What was the front-end paired with the Virgo?



The Virgos I listened to last year had the newer HHC tweeters driven by Pathos Inpower class A monoblocks via VTL pre and Accustic Arts CD source in a large room. That combination really made them sing and showcased its capabilities to recreate live music. I was actually auditioning the higher end Dynaudio speakers in that same room but the Pathos were not a good match IMO, which left me disappointed.


I heard the older version of the Tempo 3 years ago driven by Sim integrated. It has the scaled down characteristics and virtues of the higher end AP's but somewhat disappointing bottom end but overall a positive impression. In this category the Verity Audio Finns would be a more favorable choice for me in terms of top to bottom integration and coherency.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/18612114
> 
> 
> The Virgos I listened to last year had the newer HHC tweeters driven by Pathos Inpower class A monoblocks via VTL pre and Accustic Arts CD source in a large room. That combination really made them sing and showcased its capabilities to recreate live music. I was actually auditioning the higher end Dynaudio speakers in that same room but the Pathos were not a good match IMO, which left me disappointed.
> 
> 
> I heard the older version of the Tempo 3 years ago driven by Sim integrated. It has the scaled down characteristics and virtues of the higher end AP's but somewhat disappointing bottom end but overall a positive impression. In this category the Verity Audio Finns would be a more favorable choice for me in terms of top to bottom integration and coherency.



I see, well that tubed front end gear makes it very difficult to me to estimate whether or not the AP speakers would be a good fit for me on SS gear. As I stated earlier, I'm very leary of hard driver materials, UNLESS they are mated with tubes. But since I'm doing an HT / Music system, tubes are out of the equation. At this point I think AP speakers are too much of a gamble and Verity doesn't make a matching center for their smaller speakers. Bummer, as they sure are beautiful and they have the right driver materials.


Tell me more about your experience with the C1s. It seems that you owned a pair for a while? What were it's pros / cons? I've heard some (but not all) complain that it sounds a bit rolled off in the treble. What's your take on that area of performance?


----------



## Djoel

Hey Tim I was watching your speakers auction from the 2.00 hour mark all the way to the last second, wow that was exciting to say the least. Hope you recoup some of your cash.


Good luck your other sales.


Dan


----------



## Fanaticalism

What did the auction end at?


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks for the well-wishes on the auction guys. The final price was $3840. While this still represents a loss to me, it was MUCH less than usual. So that was nice.


I sold the other pair of 805Di's to a local buyer and the HTM4Di Center speaker will go up for sale later this week.


----------



## funkmonkey

Holy crap Tim! Have you considered talking to a dealer, to see if you could take a set of speakers home for a month, and then trade them out for different ones the next month... sort of like a lease program, until you find some that you want to keep for more than a few weeks? I am being serious, though it may sound like I am just giving you a hard time. One high-end dealer basically offered a similar arrangement to me during my speakerquest. He said that if I bought a set from them and got sick of them, or wanted a change that I could trade them out until I found something that I liked... Great guy, loved his approach to customer service. At the same time though he _was_ pushing his highest profit margin speakers.










Good luck to you in your continuing adventures in audio.


Cheers,

Greg


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funkmonkey* /forum/post/18617409
> 
> 
> Holy crap Tim! Have you considered talking to a dealer, to see if you could take a set of speakers home for a month, and then trade them out for different ones the next month... sort of like a lease program, until you find some that you want to keep for more than a few weeks? I am being serious, though it may sound like I am just giving you a hard time. One high-end dealer basically offered a similar arrangement to me during my speakerquest. He said that if I bought a set from them and got sick of them, or wanted a change that I could trade them out until I found something that I liked... Great guy, loved his approach to customer service. At the same time though he _was_ pushing his highest profit margin speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck to you in your continuing adventures in audio.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Greg



That is a great idea, and I actually had a dealer that did just what you describe when I went through the focals, the MA Plats, and revels. That was Matt with the Audio Architect. But those dealers are hard to come by, and it is even harder to find one that does that and has an assortment of brands that I have interest in. If you have a referral, let me know.


----------



## ronesp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funkmonkey* /forum/post/18617409
> 
> 
> Holy crap Tim! Have you considered talking to a dealer, to see if you could take a set of speakers home for a month, and then trade them out for different ones the next month...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Greg



Tim,


Maybe you can find a dealer that has a trade up, trade in program where they'll give you 100% credit if you trade within a year.


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18612209
> 
> 
> I see, well that tubed front end gear makes it very difficult to me to estimate whether or not the AP speakers would be a good fit for me on SS gear. As I stated earlier, I'm very leary of hard driver materials, UNLESS they are mated with tubes. But since I'm doing an HT / Music system, tubes are out of the equation. At this point I think AP speakers are too much of a gamble and Verity doesn't make a matching center for their smaller speakers. Bummer, as they sure are beautiful and they have the right driver materials.
> 
> 
> Tell me more about your experience with the C1s. It seems that you owned a pair for a while? What were it's pros / cons? I've heard some (but not all) complain that it sounds a bit rolled off in the treble. What's your take on that area of performance?



I have the C1s for more than 3 years now. IMO, it has the capability to reproduce acoustic instruments and voices with high degree of realism and accuracy. I would categorize speaker sonic character into "metallic"(wood instruments sounding like metal, edgy, exaggerated detail), "warm"(smooth, rounded, pleasant sounding) and "Neutral" as a reference, would be a live acoustic event (classical for me). I would say the C1s is in the neutral leaning a bit to the warm side. The highs are not exaggerated with these speakers along with the other Confidence series which inevitably would tend to be noticed by many as rolled off (I am guilty too). What truly convinced me is that none other speakers I've listened to in this price range can play violins and cellos better than the C1s.


With respect to driving the C1s, I think it will sound quite good out of the box with almost any AVR. Not as hard to drive compared to S25 or the WB disco. Give it a try Tim and see how it goes.


With this crazy hobby, I am with you, its a never ending quest. That's why I am interested in the 805DI, Orion, Ino Guru.....many others. It's lots of fun though, isn't it







.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/18618566
> 
> 
> I have the C1s for more than 3 years now. IMO, it has the capability to reproduce acoustic instruments and voices with high degree of realism and accuracy. I would categorize speaker sonic character into "metallic"(wood instruments sounding like metal, edgy, exaggerated detail), "warm"(smooth, rounded, pleasant sounding) and "Neutral" as a reference, would be a live acoustic event (classical for me). I would say the C1s is in the neutral leaning a bit to the warm side. The highs are not exaggerated with these speakers along with the other Confidence series which inevitably would tend to be noticed by many as rolled off (I am guilty too). What truly convinced me is that none other speakers I've listened to in this price range can play violins and cellos better than the C1s.
> 
> 
> With respect to driving the C1s, I think it will sound quite good out of the box with almost any AVR. Not as hard to drive compared to S25 or the WB disco. Give it a try Tim and see how it goes.
> 
> 
> With this crazy hobby, I am with you, its a never ending quest. That's why I am interested in the 805DI, Orion, Ino Guru.....many others. It's lots of fun though, isn't it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Yes, violins are very hard to get right. So easy for those and many brass instruments to become screechy and strident. Same with vocals.


I saw a pair of Guru's on Agon not too long ago for under $1100, but they weren't the Ino.


It is fun trying out all of the different gear, though I wish some of these advanced driver materials offered something as natural sounding as poly/paper/silk but with improved resolution. I've yet to hear it. Well, that's not true, I fell in love with Avalon Acoustics Indra (ceramic domes and cones), but they were connected to a massive VTL tube amp and tubed CD player.


I think someone needs to make a tubed HT prepro or AVR. I suppose their is Butler. Hmmm... maybe a butler multichannel tube amp with the Lexicon MC12HD? Tubilicious Logic 7 surround!


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18618684
> 
> 
> I think someone needs to make an aesthetically pleasing speaker with an active crossover and good polar response.



Fixed it for you.







Pretty sure that is what you meant.


Seriously though...why not just get a tube pre-amp for music? At least for me, I watch a movie once or twice, and then onto the next one.


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18618684
> 
> 
> Yes, violins are very hard to get right. So easy for those and many brass instruments to become screechy and strident. Same with vocals.
> 
> 
> I saw a pair of Guru's on Agon not too long ago for under $1100, but they weren't the Ino.
> 
> 
> It is fun trying out all of the different gear, though I wish some of these advanced driver materials offered something as natural sounding as poly/paper/silk but with improved resolution. I've yet to hear it. Well, that's not true, I fell in love with Avalon Acoustics Indra (ceramic domes and cones), but they were connected to a massive VTL tube amp and tubed CD player.
> 
> 
> I think someone needs to make a tubed HT prepro or AVR. I suppose their is Butler. Hmmm... maybe a butler multichannel tube amp with the Lexicon MC12HD? Tubilicious Logic 7 surround!



For me, I am leaning away from tubes. The maintenance and the constant warm-up cycle before reaching their optimal operating condition is inconvenient, not to mention the bias adjustment. I still have the ARC SP9, D125 of 22 years (needs to be serviced) and a Croft twinstar 1 which is an amazing little hybrid tube amp(45 W) that has the muscle to drive difficult loads in my other speakers.


Some of the SS offerings now are quite good or even better. I am quite happy with the Pass XA30.5 which is driving my C1s.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18618884
> 
> 
> Fixed it for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure that is what you meant.
> 
> 
> Seriously though...why not just get a tube pre-amp for music? At least for me, I watch a movie once or twice, and then onto the next one.



Ha! Don't forget to add that they must also have a matching center and wall mountable surrounds.










I'm not interested in separate 2CH rig because for me, I expect vocals and music within movie soundtracks to sound as smooth and natural as they do when I listen to music.


The only difference between a movie system and music system for me is the number of speakers, the dynamic capability of the system, and off-axis response.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/18618932
> 
> 
> For me, I am leaning away from tubes. The maintenance and the constant warm-up cycle before reaching their optimal operating condition is inconvenient, not to mention the bias adjustment. I still have the ARC SP9, D125 of 22 years (needs to be serviced) and a Croft twinstar 1 which is an amazing little hybrid tube amp(45 W) that has the muscle to drive difficult loads in my other speakers.
> 
> 
> Some of the SS offerings now are quite good or even better. I am quite happy with the Pass XA30.5 which is driving my C1s.



Yes, good point about tube maintenance. Well then, let me adjust my wish. I'd like an SS HT prepro that has that analog sweetness / smoothness of tubes? The Classe was close, but not the same.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18618976
> 
> 
> Don't forget to add that they must also have a matching center and wall mountable surrounds.



Aesthetics aside, it seems to me that in your B&W setup, you could have just as easily used 3 identical speakers all the way across. Maybe you don't have the space...not sure. In any case, which speakers are you seriously considering that don't have a "matching" center?



> Quote:
> The only difference between a movie system and music system for me is the number of speakers, the dynamic capability of the system, and off-axis response.



Totally understand. This is something I don't have to worry about because my music and movie system use the same electronics. Also, I think many times movie soundtracks have superior sound / recording quality.


Still, given the number of combos you have tried, I don't see your journey ending by swapping for the Dyn C1 alone. Call me crazy. Some observations:


1) Almost every time you mention a system that you think would work for you, it was driven by tube amplification. Then again, it took you a little bit to figure out that the Canton and B&W systems were inadequate, so I'm not sure how much stock you can place on your showroom auditions. But to the point, what's wrong with the SS systems? Given your answer to this question, how is it that simply switching to C1s will solve everything? Brings me to #2.


2) Was the Classe / WB system satisfactory in the smoothness / hardness domain? If so, why are you still mentioning tubes, and not just going back to the Classe / soft dome combo? Perhaps that is what you are trying to do with the Dyn C1. Yet above you state that Classe was close but not the same as tubes. Perhaps this means that _eventually_, whether it be 1 month, 2 months, etc., you will be longing to switch speakers yet again. I don't know...this is speculation. You seemed pretty happy with the Classe / WB until you decided to downgrade.


2) Perhaps you are having trouble finding a balance of "resolution" vs. harshness. Every speaker you have tried strikes some compromise here. In my own experience, the PL100 is one of the more detailed speakers (at least in the treble region) I've heard, even compared to Wilson Sashas and Magnepans.


3) You may have an unfortunate aversion to hardness in recordings / speakers.


4) Many recordings suck and it is hard to find a speaker that excels with every type of recording.


5) Some believe tubes are a band-aid and that the harshness is in the recording and in the speakers. As a SS user myself, I believe this.


All of this is just rhetorical of course. I just think that eventually you may be knocking at the door of tubes because you've tried a lot of other things that haven't worked. At this point you are just trying different styles of vanilla ice cream. They're all very similar. Might be time to try a different flavor of ice cream and see how that suits you.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18619709
> 
> 
> Aesthetics aside, it seems to me that in your B&W setup, you could have just as easily used 3 identical speakers all the way across. Maybe you don't have the space...not sure. In any case, which speakers are you seriously considering that don't have a "matching" center?
> 
> My comment about the matching center was simply in response to your proposition that I would end my search if there were a good looking speaker with an active cross-over. I'm open to the idea, I'm just modifying the fantasy system requirement.
> 
> 
> Totally understand. This is something I don't have to worry about because my music and movie system use the same electronics. Also, I think many times movie soundtracks have superior sound / recording quality.
> 
> And this is my goal as well, to use the same electronics for both.
> 
> 
> Still, given the number of combos you have tried, I don't see your journey ending by swapping for the Dyn C1 alone. Call me crazy. Some observations:
> 
> 
> 1) Almost every time you mention a system that you think would work for you, it was driven by tube amplification. Then again, it took you a little bit to figure out that the Canton and B&W systems were inadequate, so I'm not sure how much stock you can place on your showroom auditions. But to the point, what's wrong with the SS systems? Given your answer to this question, how is it that simply switching to C1s will solve everything? Brings me to #2.
> 
> Sorry for the confusion, my point in mentioning tubes was that it was the only scenario in which I've consistently liked the sound of hard domes-n-cones. In other words, if I had the luxury of a tubed based front end, then I could of probably gotten the B&Ws and several other speakers I've tried into the the realm of being enjoyable. On the other hand, I've consistently liked soft domes with SS electronics (Vienna, Dynaudio, WB, Dali). With one you soften on the front-end, with the other you soften on the back-end. Two different paths to the same end.
> 
> 
> 2) Was the Classe / WB system satisfactory in the smoothness / hardness domain? If so, why are you still mentioning tubes, and not just going back to the Classe / soft dome combo? Perhaps that is what you are trying to do with the Dyn C1. Yet above you state that Classe was close but not the same as tubes. Perhaps this means that _eventually_, whether it be 1 month, 2 months, etc., you will be longing to switch speakers yet again. I don't know...this is speculation. You seemed pretty happy with the Classe / WB until you decided to downgrade.
> 
> Yes, the Classe / WB was smooth and natural sounding, but it also had exceptional resolution. This supports my belief that SS + Soft = happiness, or tubes + hard = happiness. But I'm seduced by the resolution of diamonds, Be, etc so what I keep searching for is a hard dome that would give me the best of both worlds (hard resolution / soft sweetness). The B&Ws come quite close, but they still err towards a hard material sound. When I said that the Classe had some tube smoothness, that was in regards to the pairing of Classe with Revel (Be tweeter). The Classe helped take the edge off the metal driver sound a bit, but not enough. Based on that experience, I think it is unlikely that Classe + B&W would be what I'm after.
> 
> 
> 2) *Perhaps you are having trouble finding a balance of "resolution" vs. harshness.* Every speaker you have tried strikes some compromise here. In my own experience, the PL100 is one of the more detailed speakers (at least in the treble region) I've heard, even compared to Wilson Sashas and Magnepans.
> 
> Yes, that pretty much sums it up.
> 
> 
> 3) You may have an unfortunate aversion to hardness in recordings / speakers.
> 
> Yes, I think this is PART of the issue, but not entirely.
> 
> 
> 4) Many recordings suck and it is hard to find a speaker that excels with every type of recording.
> 
> I don't expect a speaker to excel with every recording, but when various recordings suck in the same exact way, it strongly points to a distortion coloration in the system.
> 
> 
> 5) Some believe tubes are a band-aid and that the harshness is in the recording and in the speakers. As a SS user myself, I believe this.
> 
> Yes, I feel this is certainly the case sometimes. But I don't care how you get there as long as it sounds good. You can take the edge off with tubes or you can take the edge off with lossy materials, just take the edge off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of this is just rhetorical of course. I just think that eventually you may be knocking at the door of tubes because you've tried a lot of other things that haven't worked. At this point you are just trying different styles of vanilla ice cream. They're all very similar. Might be time to try a different flavor of ice cream and see how that suits you.
> 
> For the reasons I've given above, I disagree. I only need to consider tubes if I want to continue down the road of trying to get hard driver materials to work for me. I've pretty much given up on vanilla (hard) and I'm going back to chocolate (soft).



Heya VantageSC! My comments in blue above.


----------



## vantagesc

I'm just skeptical that you are actually happy with soft domes given the struggle of resolution vs. hardness. Hopefully I am flat out wrong and you can simply go back to them and be done with it (though, having a soft dome alone guarantees nothing). It's certainly a much easier fix.


That said, maybe you are enjoying the journey more than the destination.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18621677
> 
> 
> I'm just skeptical that you are actually happy with soft domes given the struggle of resolution vs. hardness. Hopefully I am flat out wrong and you can simply go back to them and be done with it (though, having a soft dome alone guarantees nothing). It's certainly a much easier fix.
> 
> 
> That said, maybe you are enjoying the journey more than the destination.



Your skepticism is warranted. There are no absolutes, and I did make some rather broad sweeping generalities to make my point. But the only way to find the middle, is to first experience the extremes.










There is some thrill of the hunt to all of this, but I don't like to stay in that mode continually. My pattern has been to go through a few different sets of speakers until I find one that I'm happy with for a few years. I cut that cycle a bit short with the WB / Classe, but it wasn't because I wanted an upgrade. I was tickled pink with the Wilson Benesch / Classe system, I just got it in my head that I would like try to do as well on a smaller budget. I still think this is possible, it just might take a while to find the right match.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/18618932
> 
> 
> For me, I am leaning away from tubes. The maintenance and the constant warm-up cycle before reaching their optimal operating condition is inconvenient, not to mention the bias adjustment. I still have the ARC SP9, D125 of 22 years (needs to be serviced) and a Croft twinstar 1 which is an amazing little hybrid tube amp(45 W) that has the muscle to drive difficult loads in my other speakers.
> 
> 
> Some of the SS offerings now are quite good or even better. I am quite happy with the Pass XA30.5 which is driving my C1s.



Hi Vin,


Can you comment on the Pass Labs XA30.5. What speakers are they driving? I am looking for a stereo amp and am strongly considering a Audio Research but like you mentioned, not really keen on dealing with the tub maintenance. The Pass XA30.5 was my SS choice. My one experience with the Pass amps was the Aleph J which seemed to roll off the high end (though it was pleasant) but the XA30.5 seems to be a different beast from the Aleph.


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18622314
> 
> 
> Hi Vin,
> 
> Can you comment on the Pass Labs XA30.5. What speakers are they driving? I am looking for a stereo amp and am strongly considering a Audio Research but like you mentioned, not really keen on dealing with the tub maintenance. The Pass XA30.5 was my SS choice. My one experience with the Pass amps was the Aleph J which seemed to roll off the high end (though it was pleasant) but the XA30.5 seems to be a different beast from the Aleph.



Chjo100, I have 4 sets of speakers which I switch around with 4 of my beloved Amps (Grant 102s of 30 yrs, ARC D125, Croft Twinstar 1 and the Pass). The speakers are ML CLS, Rogers LS35/a, Dyn S1.4 and C1). To my ears each speakers has it's own favorable amp pairing. The Pass paired with the C1s and Rogers are the best for me. It brings out more presence and delicate cues of the halls and recording venues vividly. I don't have to raise up the volume to immerse myself into the music but somehow even at low listening level the magic is still there. There is no edgy, irritating brightness or fatigue inducing sound at all. With the other amps except for the Grants, it has more of the brightness and edginess character.


The downside, the Pass paired with the S1.4 and CLS is good but not as good as driven by the other amps. Best is to compare them in your home at least 2 amps at a time.


Tim, I hope you don't mind me straying off topic a bit.


----------



## hifisponge

CLS & Chjo -


Feel free to discuss anything audio related that you like. Mi casa es su casa.


Besides it gives me exposure to gear talk that I might not normally pursue.


----------



## vantagesc

I definitely think you can reduce the budget while achieving comparable sound quality, given that so much of the cost of WBs is in the cabinets. A lot of the cost in Classe gear is in the chassis too, though Classe seems to have their own special secret sauce.


You're not the only person to remark that MA Platinums sound great with tubes. Would love to try it some time.


BTW, is AA still in business?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18623340
> 
> 
> I definitely think you can reduce the budget while achieving comparable sound quality, *given that so much of the cost of WBs is in the cabinets. A lot of the cost in Classe gear is in the chassis too*, though Classe seems to have their own special secret sauce.



Yes, precisely. This is not news to the frugal-minded, but it seems to escape the logic processing powers of elitists and those that equate cost with performance.











> Quote:
> You're not the only person to remark that MA Platinums sound great with tubes. Would love to try it some time.



You really should. When I listened to them for the first time on Primare gear, I didn't care much for them (too aggressive), but the next day they had them connected to McIntosh and it was fantastic. At that time I was so entrenched in the all electronics sound more or less the same, that I figured that they just sounded better due to better placement.



> Quote:
> BTW, is AA still in business?



Kinda. He's phasing out of it, but I may be able to complete one last sale through him.


----------



## vantagesc

I have, however, tried tubes (Cary, not especially high end) with the Usher Be718. It was interesting at first, but I felt the resulting sound deviated too much from what I considered accurate to satisfy me long term. In particular, I thought the bass suffered and became a little "wooly". It was not a long term audition however, so perhaps I would adjust.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18628172
> 
> 
> I have, however, tried tubes (Cary, not especially high end) with the Usher Be718. It was interesting at first, but I felt the resulting sound deviated too much from what I considered accurate to satisfy me long term. In particular, I thought the bass suffered and became a little "wooly". It was not a long term audition however, so perhaps I would adjust.



That is the typical sound of a cheap tube component-- euphonic in an obvious and colored way, bloomy/wooly bass and sometimes a rolled off top end. You need to try Audio Research or VTL. These sound very natural and "analog" to me. The detail is all there, it just sounds smoother.


----------



## mpmct

It might not be the driver materials or the amplification, it might be

the dad-gummed passive crossovers ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP71yCwYxe4


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18628318
> 
> 
> That is the typical sound of a cheap tube component-- euphonic in an obvious and colored way, bloomy/wooly bass and sometimes a rolled off top end. You need to try Audio Research or VTL. These sound very natural and "analog" to me. The detail is all there, it just sounds smoother.



Some of the Audio Research stuff isn't that much more expensive than the higher end Cary stuff, surprisingly. Half the time I have no idea what I'm listening to costs. Last time I went to my high-end dealer, I was listening to a pre-amp with a stepped resistor volume control that was something like $30k.


Anyway, $5k later, the speaker is still the weak link with the bass driver flapping away like it's in the wind. Drives me nuts honestly.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18629009
> 
> 
> Some of the Audio Research stuff isn't that much more expensive than the higher end Cary stuff, surprisingly. Half the time I have no idea what I'm listening to costs. Last time I went to my high-end dealer, I was listening to a pre-amp with a stepped resistor volume control that was something like $30k.
> 
> 
> Anyway, $5k later, the speaker is still the weak link with the bass driver flapping away like it's in the wind. Drives me nuts honestly.



Yeah, I'm sure that there is a good chance that Cary's higher-end models would be closer to what I heard from AR.


Sorry, I don't catch your meaning on your last comment.


----------



## vantagesc

I just think it's comical that this particular dealer was suggesting that someone spend $5k on that tube amp and pair it with a speaker that costs less, when that the amp was not doing the speaker any favors in the bass department. It lead me to think that the bass driver was just doing whatever it wanted, rather than the amp taking control over it. Flapping in the wind so to speak.


----------



## hifisponge

Well guys, the B&Ws are all sold off, and done in record time. Not to mention I lost no money on that deal. Man I wish all speakers held their value like B&W.


I just placed an order for a pair of C1's in gloss black with the matching Stand4's in matte black. I'm anxious to see (hear) if these will be my next long term speaker.


While there is no guarantee that I will stick with the C1's, I am (forever?) optimistic. I did an extended in-home audition of the Sapphires about a year ago and really liked them. I also really enjoyed the short audition I had with the Special 25s when they were first released several years ago. I was very close to keeping the Sapphires, but the wife did not approve of the size and style of the speaker. I probably would have pushed to keep them if there were a matching center, but there isn't. Yes, I know the Confidence Center is considered a good match for the Sapphires, but from and aesthetic POV, it would have bugged me to have that much money into the speakers and not have them visually match.


My only concern is that I have read some complaints that the C1s can sound a bit too reserved in the treble, but it could be that these people are just used to brighter sounding speakers-- I dunno. If it does turn out that the treble needs a little help, I'll use EQ to see if I can achieve a more pleasing balance. Though, considering that I found the Sapphires a touch bright with the grills off, it would seem that the flat treble response of the C1's should be a good fit for me.


Anyway, wish me luck.


Should have them in a couple of weeks.


----------



## Dynero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18631061
> 
> 
> 
> While there is no guarantee that I will stick with the C1's, I am (forever?) optimistic. I did an extended in-home audition of the Sapphires about a year ago and really liked them.



I would be very surprised if you kept the c1's for more than a year, it seems the thrill of the hunt is what keeps you going, I go through the same thing.


I had the c1's too though and very nearly kept them, it's just that my dealer gave me a super trade in deal with the c1 and Egglestonworks Andras and it was an offer i couldn't refuse : ) i was also itching to move up to a full range speaker and good as the c1 was it couldn't do deep bass ( sub 40hz ) with enough authority to render acoustic cues.


But I've literally heard dozens of small speakers, the only bookshelf that bettered it in the bass was the Dynaudio S25 and even then the c1 sounded more articulate if not more impacting.


I will say though I absolutely LOOOVED the c1 with movies ( better than the Andra ), I thought it was fantastic. The dialogue was so natural and intelligible, the sound effects bombastic. Terrific speakers.


----------



## jacksonian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dynero* /forum/post/18632117
> 
> 
> I would be very surprised if you kept the c1's for more than a year, it seems the thrill of the hunt is what keeps you going, I go through the same thing.



Ain't that the truth? My wife is pretty understanding with my HT obsessions, but sometimes she's like, "It's perfect, why are you messing with it?" And I have to explain that it's the thrill of the hunt, the researching and reading and pondering the choices.


----------



## Dynero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jacksonian* /forum/post/18632295
> 
> 
> Ain't that the truth? My wife is pretty understanding with my HT obsessions, but sometimes she's like, "It's perfect, why are you messing with it?" And I have to explain that it's the thrill of the hunt, the researching and reading and pondering the choices.



Exactly, having x amount to spend and juggling all the possibilities in one's head, and I always justify it by saying " just one last time; then I'll be happy, then I'll quit, of course it never does", I estimate I'm a step behind Tim, I've reached my personal pinnacle, now I "scale back" and then "rebuild" hehe


----------



## jacksonian

I alternate audio and video madness every few years. That way I hopefully have a whole new bunch of research to do since I've let more time pass.


----------



## Fanaticalism




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18631061
> 
> 
> Well guys, the B&Ws are all sold off, and done in record time. Not to mention I lost no money on that deal. Man I wish all speakers held their value like B&W.
> 
> 
> I just placed an order for a pair of C1's in gloss black with the matching Stand4's in matte black. I'm anxious to see (hear) if these will be my next long term speaker.
> 
> 
> While there is no guarantee that I will stick with the C1's, I am (forever?) optimistic. I did an extended in-home audition of the Sapphires about a year ago and really liked them. I also really enjoyed the short audition I had with the Special 25s when they were first released several years ago. I was very close to keeping the Sapphires, but the wife did not approve of the size and style of the speaker. I probably would have pushed to keep them if there were a matching center, but there isn't. Yes, I know the Confidence Center is considered a good match for the Sapphires, but from and aesthetic POV, it would have bugged me to have that much money into the speakers and not have them visually match.
> 
> 
> My only concern is that I have read some complaints that the C1s can sound a bit too reserved in the treble, but it could be that these people are just used to brighter sounding speakers-- I dunno. If it does turn out that the treble needs a little help, I'll use EQ to see if I can achieve a more pleasing balance. Though, considering that I found the Sapphires a touch bright with the grills off, it would seem that the flat treble response of the C1's should be a good fit for me.
> 
> 
> Anyway, wish me luck.
> 
> 
> Should have them in a couple of weeks.



Needless to say that I anxiously await your impressions of the Dyns, Tim. I have to say that I share a lot of your preferences when it comes to tonality and texture. To me, there is an unnatural separation that occurs with the music with hard dome tweeters, although their response would dictate otherwise. Yes, they have more resolve, but it just doesn't right to these ears. As you've mentioned before, "they sound like speakers".


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dynero* /forum/post/18632117
> 
> 
> I would be very surprised if you kept the c1's for more than a year, it seems the thrill of the hunt is what keeps you going, I go through the same thing.
> 
> 
> I had the c1's too though and very nearly kept them, it's just that my dealer gave me a super trade in deal with the c1 and Egglestonworks Andras and it was an offer i couldn't refuse : ) i was also itching to move up to a full range speaker and good as the c1 was it couldn't do deep bass ( sub 40hz ) with enough authority to render acoustic cues.
> 
> 
> But I've literally heard dozens of small speakers, the only bookshelf that bettered it in the bass was the Dynaudio S25 and even then the c1 sounded more articulate if not more impacting.
> 
> 
> I will say though I absolutely LOOOVED the c1 with movies ( better than the Andra ), I thought it was fantastic. The dialogue was so natural and intelligible, the sound effects bombastic. Terrific speakers.



I do admit, I like the thrill of the hunt, but I would like to keep whatever it is I find for a couple of years before starting over again.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fanaticalism* /forum/post/18633579
> 
> 
> Needless to say that I anxiously await your impressions of the Dyns, Tim. I have to say that I share a lot of your preferences when it comes to tonality and texture. To me, there is an unnatural separation that occurs with the music with hard dome tweeters, although their response would dictate otherwise. Yes, they have more resolve, but it just doesn't right to these ears. As you've mentioned before, "they sound like speakers".



I like how succinctly you put that. You're right, "they just sound like speakers".


----------



## Warpdrv

Ha...... Look at you go TIM.... I thought the B&Ws were the shiznit from reading your posts not too far back.... I always hear the quote in my head when I read your posts.... "He's a bit Nutty !!!!"....







I guess were quite the same, just in different aspects of the HT


From hearing the Dyn S.1.4 in my house - I def had an appreciation for what they brought to the table.... I can imagine the C1's are just great, though a bit interesting looking, build quality is certainly top notch !!!


If I may ask, what did you find not 100% appealing about the new B&W's... I have yet to head over to my dealers place to give them a listen... He has the entire lineup and I'm really looking to get some seat time in with them...


Funny, he has always been a Paradigm dealer but never carried the Signature series, where I ordered my S8's directly through him, having to get seat time elsewhere.... When he got them in - I asked him to unbox them and test them out for me, so I didn't have any surprises of them - His wife who is involved in the business thought they were just downright gorgeous and the sound stage in his super sweet spacious room was incredible, wide and deep on the Naim front end... Needless to say, he carries the whole line now.... hmmmmph


Anywho.... as the thread title states... I am still on the move with my ever changing bass needs... shouldn't be long now and I can pull the curtain back on the newest upgrade...


----------



## Fanaticalism

While I may not be Tim, from my audition of the 805Di I can surely say that they certainly impressed with an incredible sound stage and imaging to die for. They didn't have the forward characteristic that I remember when auditioning their last iteration. The only that irked me a little, was that on certain tracks, the diamond tweeter stood out losing that sense of "being there".


I listened to them a rather modest front end though.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/18635430
> 
> 
> Ha...... Look at you go TIM.... I thought the B&Ws were the shiznit from reading your posts not too far back.... I always hear the quote in my head when I read your posts.... "He's a bit Nutty !!!!"....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess were quite the same, just in different aspects of the HT
> 
> 
> From hearing the Dyn S.1.4 in my house - I def had an appreciation for what they brought to the table.... I can imagine the C1's are just great, though a bit interesting looking, build quality is certainly top notch !!!
> 
> 
> If I may ask, what did you find not 100% appealing about the new B&W's... I have yet to head over to my dealers place to give them a listen... He has the entire lineup and I'm really looking to get some seat time in with them...
> 
> 
> Funny, he has always been a Paradigm dealer but never carried the Signature series, where I ordered my S8's directly through him, having to get seat time elsewhere.... When he got them in - I asked him to unbox them and test them out for me, so I didn't have any surprises of them - His wife who is involved in the business thought they were just downright gorgeous and the sound stage in his super sweet spacious room was incredible, wide and deep on the Naim front end... Needless to say, he carries the whole line now.... hmmmmph
> 
> 
> Anywho.... as the thread title states... I am still on the move with my ever changing bass needs... shouldn't be long now and I can pull the curtain back on the newest upgrade...



I'm a pretty level headed guy in most areas of life, but yeh, I'm certifiably nutty when it comes to this hobby.










See the last paragraph in the post linked below for the reason why I parted with the B&Ws.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18425807 


and this follow-up post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18591927 


I'm sincerely happy for you and the Paradigm purchase. I have to say that the aluminum tweeter in the Sig V1's were an exception to the rule when it comes to metal tweeters. Those had none of the metallic quality I've heard from so many others. However, those tweets were not as finely detailed as the best soft domes I've heard-- not as "delicate" to use reviewer speak. The Sigs were also a very balanced speakers, but not as "transparent" (more reviewer speak for not sounding real). I still haven't heard the new ones yet. Well actually I have, but I think they were blown. They sounded way too dark and muffled to have been working correctly.


So you are still going nuts on the subwookies? I thought that you were just down to finishing the cabinets. Go a link to your current project?


----------



## Warpdrv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18635896
> 
> 
> 
> I still haven't heard the new ones yet. Well actually I have, but I think they were blown. They sounded way too dark and muffled to have been working correctly.
> 
> 
> So you are still going nuts on the subwookies? I thought that you were just down to finishing the cabinets. Go a link to your current project?



Well my dealer is quite the B&W fanboy, but when he heard the new Sigs in his room with the Be tweeter he had no problem selling them as a middle ground priced items just below the B&W's. I'm so glad I got into my Sig setup when I did, pricing is up to just shy of $9k now, I paid just a touch over half of that for the .v3's new...


Subs..... well honestly as of right now I'm pretty happy with the output of my 3 LMS's + 15" setup, but I am always right on the verge of pushing them too hard with those 30db swings, and especially with the increased heavy bass found in Blurays. So it seems I need a touch more headroom - goin for broke...










I haven't started a thread, was going to post up pics when its all said and done.... I didn't have the time nor the skills to build boxes with the criteria I'm looking for in my room, so I contracted John at AE Speakers to build them, they should be done next week (hoping), there have been a few unforeseen delays with the veneer. But I'm really happy with the way they turned out and look. The new subs will consist of 3 boxes - they will all be Dual Opposed 18" TC Sounds LMS's - with magnetic grills, powered with 6 - 4000w pro amps, 1 amp per driver....


I think I should be pretty well good on the bass front when I'm all said and done...


----------



## hifisponge

Wow, the S8 V3s are close to $9K now? The V1's were only $6K when I bought mine a few years ago. You can get a set of B&W 803 Diamonds for $10K. Though honestly, I liked the sound quality of the S8 V1 better than the 803Ds. I've listened to the 803D and 803 Diamond a few times, and they are not a very balanced speaker.


So let me get this straight... 6 18" drivers powered by 24KW?!










And you think I'm nutty?










How do the rest of your speakers hold up when you've got the system at full throttle?


I honestly feel my single JL F112 is more than enough. I might get a second one in the future to get more even in-room response, but I don't need the extra output.


What are the dimensions of your room again?


----------



## Warpdrv

Well again, now thats the problem here... remember that my rooms rough measurements are 8200^3 open to everywhere in the house - so trying to pressurize that kind of space is a large problem.... think of bass in a huge movie theater or a warehouse - you need some serious output to have any sort of impact... Which would deem something of the order of a horn type sub or an infinite baffle, now with that you will get huge output, and impact - yet the tightness and cleanliness is lacking....


My issue is two fold here.... I love alot of bass, but the problem part comes into play when I don't just want alot of bass, I want the best possible, cleanest tightest and most impactful bass I can get.... like your F112, which I have as well in my bedroom and is more then plenty in a 1700^3 room. When I bought that sub it changed every perception of what my bass needs to be.


I am waiting on my new boxes to arrive, but everything else is in place - amps drivers & new dual 30 amp circuits. When my boxes get here I can put all this together and fire them up after I EQ all of them together in my room, a daunting task.... ugh...


I will prevail and scare the hell out of people....


Remember - my goal is to blow women's clothes off with my sound system... !!!!


----------



## hifisponge

Ahh, 8200 cubic feet is quite a bit of space to fill. My room is only 2600^3. I guess I should consider myself lucky to have a smaller space in this case.


I would love to hear / experience all of that power + quality.


And yes, of course I remember your goal. What man could forget that?


----------



## Warpdrv

Yeah its been a journey, but this build will solve all those problems...


The Sigs keep up very well... As stated the subs are still putting out quite a bit and its very balanced, but just need more headroom, I'm afraid of damaging the subs if I push it to hard, The S8's will hang quite easily at those volumes...


----------



## weird 23

One thing that I didn't notice was any mention of the B&W center channel, how was the performance of this speaker? It looked a little small with only the one mid range driver, did it sound bigger than it looked?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18644065
> 
> 
> One thing that I didn't notice was any mention of the B&W center channel, how was the performance of this speaker? It looked a little small with only the one mid range driver, did it sound bigger than it looked?



Crossed over to a sub, it held its own. I don't listen to movies at ear-bleed levels, but I did get a the volume up there pretty good when I watched Sherlock Holmes and I had no concerns with the output of the center.


Thats one of the things I've found over the years, is that it is easy to overestimate how much speaker you really need. High quality bookshelf speakers mated with a sub is quite enough for my medium sized room and listening habits. But of course if you have a large room and you want to reach full 105 dB reference level, then the cost and size of everything grows exponentially.


----------



## hifisponge

As I mentioned earlier, I placed my order for a set of Dynaudio C1's + stands the middle of last week, and I just got the call today that they will reach me next Tuesday. Woot!


That's a whole helluva lot quicker than the 2 months it took for me to get the B&W's. Thank God! because all of the waiting kills me.










Now I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that they arrive in one piece. It's always a gamble as to how UPS will treat them.


Anyway, it will be interesting to see if changing back to soft dome tweets will get me what I'm after. Speaking of, just out of curiosity, has anyone here every heard a good quality speaker with a screechy soft dome? I had some M&Ks that were a bit bright and sibilant at times, but that was in my early days in the hobby and I can't say for certain that the cause wasn't the recording or something else. Back then I was still green and didn't do the best troubleshooting.


----------



## NoFlyZone

I just sold my C1's a week ago. After melting a midrange driver followed by not so good customer support I felt that these speakers weren't for us. Before they departed we lucked into a pair of MBL 121's. It was pretty interesting to have both these sets of side by side with a pair of line arrays lurking around the corner.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NoFlyZone* /forum/post/18653123
> 
> 
> I just sold my C1's a week ago. After melting a midrange driver followed by not so good customer support I felt that these speakers weren't for us. Before they departed we lucked into a pair of MBL 121's. It was pretty interesting to have both these sets of side by side with a pair of line arrays lurking around the corner.



Very cool of you to stop by. That is only the second time I've read of a Dynaudio driver failing. There was one guy in the Dynaudio thread that torched the bass drivers in his C2s. What is your take on the reason for the driver failure in your C1's? And other than that, how did you feel about the sound quality? Do they live up to the hype?










I'm certain that the MBLs walked all over the C1's in terms of soundstage. That is one speaker I would really like to get my ears on someday. I hear that the MBL's produce a wrap-around sound that sounds very appealing to me. But I've also read that they need a lot of space, which makes sense since they are omnis.


Congrats on your new speakers!


----------



## NoFlyZone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18652445
> 
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, I placed my order for a set of Dynaudio C1's + stands the middle of last week, and I just got the call today that they will reach me next Tuesday. Woot!
> 
> 
> That's a whole helluva lot quicker than the 2 months it took for me to get the B&W's. Thank God! because all of the waiting kills me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that they arrive in one piece. It's always a gamble as to how UPS will treat them.
> 
> 
> Anyway, it will be interesting to see if changing back to soft dome tweets will get me what I'm after. Speaking of, just out of curiosity, has anyone here every heard a good quality speaker with a screechy soft dome? I had some M&Ks that were a bit bright and sibilant at times, but that was in my early days in the hobby and I can't say for certain that the cause wasn't the recording or something else. Back then I was still green and didn't do the best troubleshooting.



hifisponge,


If you could be present when the truck drives up that would be helpful. The driver literally threw the C1's off the truck and managed only to destroy the grill as these speakers and packed very well with foam. The buyer witnessed this from his crane (a crane operator) through his binoculars!


UPS managed to lose my PerfectWave DAC and Transport last week. Fortunately they turned up at another location and were brought to our home the following week. Imagine our fear and frustration.


I don't wish to add to your stress but rather a heads up. The C1's again are packed very well. I was surprised to see the damaged speaker and was very dissappointed that this happened.










I can probably help you with why you're having problems with "screechy tweeters"


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NoFlyZone* /forum/post/18653183
> 
> 
> hifisponge,
> 
> 
> If you could be present when the truck drives up that would be helpful. The driver literally threw the C1's off the truck and managed only to destroy the grill as these speakers and packed very well with foam. The buyer witnessed this from his crane (a crane operator) through his binoculars!
> 
> 
> UPS managed to lose my PerfectWave DAC and Transport last week. Fortunately they turned up at another location and were brought to our home the following week. Imagine our fear and frustration.
> 
> 
> I don't wish to add to your stress but rather a heads up. The C1's again are packed very well. I was surprised to see the damaged speaker and was very dissappointed that this happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can probably help you with why you're having problems with "screechy tweeters"



I've been quite fortunate over the years to not have had any damage to packages sent or received via UPS, but I've read enough horror-stories to know that I should be thankful.


So you say you can help me with screechy tweeters. I'm listening.


----------



## NoFlyZone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18653180
> 
> 
> Very cool of you to stop by. That is only the second time I've read of a Dynaudio driver failing. There was one guy in the Dynaudio thread that torched the bass drivers in his C2s. What is your take on the reason for the driver failure in your C1's? And other than that, how did you feel about the sound quality? Do they live up to the hype?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm certain that the MBLs walked all over them in terms of soundstage. That is one speaker I would really like to get my ears on someday. I hear that they produce a wrap-around sound that sounds very appealing to me. But I've also read that they need a lot of space, which makes sense since they are omnis.
> 
> 
> Congrats on your new speakers!



It's not often that they fail. But like anything else, it can happen. What I didn't like is Dynaudio's attitude. If I heard "these speakers are tested 86 times before they leave the factory" again I'll remind him of the Columbia










The MBL's are more than twice as expensive speakers. Not that cost should have anything to do with it but in this case, the MBL's destroyed the C1's in general terms.


I am or was a Dynaudio fan. In fact, I still lust after the Silverline Bolero's which use Dynaudio drivers. The C1's sounded great! Big thumbs up. Their Esotar tweeter rules in the C1 and the mids can really punch in a way. What I wanted was a x-over to cross at 50Hz like the MBL's are designed to do. Sometimes speakers try to do too much. These speakers need clean power or you might be dissapointed. I drove them with Nuforce 9SEV2's which weren't enough, then the Pass X350.5 which was more than enough but then I had a driver melt.


They (C1's) image amazingly well, at least as good as the MBL's in the sweet spot. The MBL's sweet spot is - all over. Everyone can enjoy, not just the captain in the "spot". The vocals are suductive and the focus of the C1's is amoung the best I've heard - not the Audio Physic Avanti focus but very good. These speakers can layer depth. If you don't here this, something is wrong in your chain.


get them away from the wall at least 36" towed in about 7 to 8 degres to start with about 8 feet distance apart. have someone audiophilish to play with toe while you sit in the "spot".Bass traps are mandatory if wish to here the clarity and soundstage these speakers can produce.


ENJOY!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NoFlyZone* /forum/post/18653266
> 
> 
> The C1 speakers need clean power or you might be dissapointed. I drove them with Nuforce 9SEV2's which weren't enough, then the Pass X350.5 which was more than enough but then I had a driver melt.



Thanks for the details.










I hear this sort of statement a lot, that Dyns (and other speakers too), "need a lot of power". What sort of improvements did you hear in moving to the Pass amp? Or, more importantly, what did you feel was "disappointing" about the sound of the C1 with the NuForce amps?


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NoFlyZone* /forum/post/18653266
> 
> 
> The MBL's sweet spot is - all over. Everyone can enjoy, not just the captain in the "spot".



It's that darn polar response thing again.







Makes a lot of sense IMO.


For anyone interested, here's an interesting list of controlled directivity designs. Quite a few omnis on the list. Scroll down to commercial designs at the bottom:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Constant_...vity_louds.htm


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18653658
> 
> 
> It's that darn polar response thing again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Makes a lot of sense IMO.
> 
> 
> For anyone interested, here's an interesting list of controlled directivity designs. Quite a few omnis on the list. Scroll down to commercial designs at the bottom:
> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Constant_...vity_louds.htm



The Revels I owned had phenomenal polar response. You could literally stand behind them and get a solid stereo center image. I miss that quality, but tone, texture and soundstage are higher on my list of priorities.


----------



## NoFlyZone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18653401
> 
> 
> Thanks for the details.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hear this sort of statement a lot, that Dyns (and other speakers too), "need a lot of power". What sort of improvements did you hear in moving to the Pass amp? Or, more importantly, what did you feel was "disappointing" about the sound of the C1 with the NuForce amps?



I loved my Nuforces. Extremely open, dynamic, and detailed and had them up against many other amps in my room. They always seemed to deliver. This on top of the fact that they run cool and are energy efficient.


With the C1's however, I felt the bass drivers bottom out on some musical passages. We don't play our music softly. My wife likes to play music loud enough to make the windows turn back to sand.










The Pass amp weighs in at 150lbs. It's more than twice the cost and sounds twice better. It runs class A to around 65 watts and presents a more realistic musical picture in terms of dynamic ease, balance, warmth, detail and texture.


It weighs 150lbs







Did I mention that?


This sonic signature transmitted to the C1's. I don't think watts is the factor for driving the C1's and much as current might be the necessary component.


Last night the DAC and Transport really started to settle in. I don't even know how to describe what we were hearing. Nuances. It was the smaller passages, the details, the textures in the music inside the music. Balance. It was as if we discovered that the problem with audio systems we've been hearing is in the peaks and valleys. This is tough to describe







Passages within the music which you would have payed no attention too have become part of the sonic picture. There is an amazing continuity to the music. I don't dance but I'll tell you that I could not sit on the couch listening to Eric Clapton Pilgrim. I didn't think the MBL's could do mid bass but let me tell ya, Tal Wilkinfields bass guitar was strumming every cord with clarity and warmth like I've never heard. I was all over the room. Now this is worth it!









I played some high rez music, 3 guitars was the name of the album.
























OMG. Incredible texture, air, and a soundstage to die for. Sorry if I'm over the top here but last night was effin amazing. Part way through the second song we heard the heater turn on. My wife got up to find out why cause we've had it shut down. I was puzzled. She walked by the left speaker and stopped, lookeed at me and said it was coming from the speaker. It was the AC turning on in the songs recording room.










I'm 2 days into breaking this stuff in.


Forgive me


----------



## Sunya




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18653180
> 
> 
> I'm certain that the MBLs walked all over the C1's in terms of soundstage. That is one speaker I would really like to get my ears on someday. I hear that the MBL's produce a wrap-around sound that sounds very appealing to me. But I've also read that they need a lot of space, which makes sense since they are omnis.



If you want some omni soundstage from the C1's you could add the Elac 4Pi tweeters to them.

http://www.elac.de/en/products/l600c....php?4piplus_2


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18655196
> 
> 
> The Revels I owned had phenomenal polar response. You could literally stand behind them and get a solid stereo center image. I miss that quality, but tone, texture and soundstage are higher on my list of priorities.



Wide tweeter / midrange dispersion and good polar response are not necessarily the same, though from what I've seen, those Revels look great. In any case, I do not imply that it should be the #1 priority.


I notice that low distortion did not make your list. More evidence that tubes are coming your way. JK!!!












> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NoFlyZone* /forum/post/18656375
> 
> 
> With the C1's however, I felt the bass drivers bottom out on some musical passages. We don't play our music softly. My wife likes to play music loud enough to make the windows turn back to sand.



At the end of the day, it's a small 2-way speaker, even if it is remarkable for the size. Same thing happened with my Ushers. They really needed crossing over to a sub, which is precisely what Tim is doing.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18657264
> 
> 
> Wide tweeter / midrange dispersion and good polar response are not necessarily the same, though from what I've seen, those Revels look great. In any case, I do not imply that it should be the #1 priority.




Polar response is the measurement of the speaker's dispersion pattern. They are essentially interchangeable. If a speaker has wide, even dispersion, the polar plot will be considered "good".





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For anyone interested, here's an interesting list of controlled directivity designs. Quite a few omnis on the list.



Your statement appears to be at odds. A controlled directivity speaker is by definition a speaker with a focused or narrow dispersion pattern (cone shaped polar response in front of the speaker). True omni-directional speakers, by definition are broad dispersion designs and therefore do not have controlled directivity (circular polar response). The only exception are dipolar speakers, which are a bit of both. Dipolar speakers have wide dispersion front and back and limited or "controlled" directivity / dispersion to the sides (a figure 8 polar response).


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NoFlyZone* /forum/post/18656375
> 
> 
> I loved my Nuforces. Extremely open, dynamic, and detailed and had them up against many other amps in my room. They always seemed to deliver. This on top of the fact that they run cool and are energy efficient.
> 
> 
> With the C1's however, I felt the bass drivers bottom out on some musical passages. We don't play our music softly. My wife likes to play music loud enough to make the windows turn back to sand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Pass amp weighs in at 150lbs. It's more than twice the cost and sounds twice better. It runs class A to around 65 watts and presents a more realistic musical picture in terms of dynamic ease, balance, warmth, detail and texture.
> 
> 
> It weighs 150lbs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did I mention that?
> 
> 
> This sonic signature transmitted to the C1's. I don't think watts is the factor for driving the C1's and much as current might be the necessary component.
> 
> 
> Last night the DAC and Transport really started to settle in. I don't even know how to describe what we were hearing. Nuances. It was the smaller passages, the details, the textures in the music inside the music. Balance. It was as if we discovered that the problem with audio systems we've been hearing is in the peaks and valleys. This is tough to describe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passages within the music which you would have payed no attention too have become part of the sonic picture. There is an amazing continuity to the music. I don't dance but I'll tell you that I could not sit on the couch listening to Eric Clapton Pilgrim. I didn't think the MBL's could do mid bass but let me tell ya, Tal Wilkinfields bass guitar was strumming every cord with clarity and warmth like I've never heard. I was all over the room. Now this is worth it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I played some high rez music, 3 guitars was the name of the album.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OMG. Incredible texture, air, and a soundstage to die for. Sorry if I'm over the top here but last night was effin amazing. Part way through the second song we heard the heater turn on. My wife got up to find out why cause we've had it shut down. I was puzzled. She walked by the left speaker and stopped, lookeed at me and said it was coming from the speaker. It was the AC turning on in the songs recording room.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm 2 days into breaking this stuff in.
> 
> 
> Forgive me



Congratlations on acheiving a sound that gets you excited. The true test is a month from now when the "honeymoon effect" wears off and you hear the full character of the sound, not just the best parts that your brain and the endorphines running through it are telling you that the sound is orgasmic.










Seriously, I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but I've experienced many moments like you've described above after acquiring new gear, only to be let down later. Hopefully, the warts that eventually surface won't drag the experience down enough to have you on the hunt again for a while though.


----------



## Braviageek

Tim,


I've really enjoyed this thread, and I envy your extensive experience with this high-end equipment. I hope to one day have the resources and the proper environment to enjoy some similarly exquisite "big-boy" toys. Maybe one day years from now when my kids are out of college, but for now I'll just enjoy my Paradigm Atoms.


Quick question: I notice on the photos of your previous speakers, the WBs, the tweeter is on the bottom, below the main driver. Is there a reason WB (and a few other manufacturers) does it this way, but 99 percent of other speaker manufacturers put the tweeter on top? Have you owned other speakers with this layout, and have you noticed any sonic difference between this design and the traditional arrangement?



Thanks,

JD


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18657511
> 
> 
> Polar response is the measurement of the speaker's dispersion pattern. They are essentially interchangeable. If a speaker has wide, even dispersion, the polar plot will be considered "good".



I do not disagree, as I never said anything about even dispersion of a speaker. I am just pointing out that we could imagine a speaker with really wide dispersion in the tweeter region that still images pretty well, but still has relatively poor polar response as a whole. In fact, I still own such a speaker.


BTW, a dipole would make a great room divider for a loft style apartment. Except one side of the "divider" would hear opposite imaging, but oh well.



> Quote:
> Your statement appears to be at odds. A controlled directivity speaker is by definition a speaker with a focused or narrow dispersion pattern (cone shaped polar response in front of the speaker). True omni-directional speakers, by definition are broad dispersion designs and therefore do not have controlled directivity (circular polar response). The only exception are dipolar speakers, which are a bit of both. Dipolar speakers have wide dispersion front and back and limited or "controlled" directivity / dispersion to the sides (a figure 8 polar response).



Not at all! What is meant by control. If you are controlling dispersion, it doesn't mean you _necessarily_ are making it focused or narrow, as you suggest. It just means that you are not plunking some drivers into a box and leaving yourself at the mercy of the driver dispersion and/or baffle. You are actively thinking about this polar response problem. This is how I look at the world. If you feel it is more accurate to call an omni a "constant directivity" design, that is fine. Semantics. BTW, some omnis have some sort of lens that helps "control" dispersion.



Edit: Who has heard this baby?
http://www.raal-requisite.com/pages/eternity.html


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Braviageek* /forum/post/18657589
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> I've really enjoyed this thread, and I envy your extensive experience with this high-end equipment. I hope to one day have the resources and the proper environment to enjoy some similarly exquisite "big-boy" toys. Maybe one day years from now when my kids are out of college, but for now I'll just enjoy my Paradigm Atoms.
> 
> 
> Quick question: I notice on the photos of your previous speakers, the WBs, the tweeter is on the bottom, below the main driver. Is there a reason WB (and a few other manufacturers) does it this way, but 99 percent of other speaker manufacturers put the tweeter on top? Have you owned other speakers with this layout, and have you noticed any sonic difference between this design and the traditional arrangement?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> JD



Hi JD -


Thanks for stopping into my experimental little section of the forum.










Dynaudio C1, the Dynaudio Contour series, the Dynaudio Consequence and and the WB Discovery are the only speakers that I know of that use the inverted tweeter position and frankly I don't know for certain why, but I have a theory. Typically you want the tweeter to be at ear hieght because high frequencies are very directional above 8-10 KHz. If you sit too far above or below the tweeter, you won't hear the full range of the tweeter. But placing the tweeter at this height also produces more reflected sound within a typical room. Place the tweeter lower, and now the tweeter is now more than likely firing into the furnishings and objects within the room (couch, chairs, tables, etc.). Doing this could help disperse the sound and reduce coloration of the sound caused by having the tweeter high up and the sound reflecting off the walls.


However, in the WB Discovery, I think part if not all of the reason for the inverted tweeter postion is due to the fact that they couldn't physically put the woofer below the tweeter. Inside the bottom of the Discovery speaker, there is another woofer hidden from view, and there is only about three inches of space from the face of the speaker to the woofer inside. To place the mid/woof on the face of the speaker on the bottom, you would need at least 6-7 inches of depth.


That's my best guess anyway.


I think I'll go ask Dynaudio why they do it, now that you have me curious.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18657791
> 
> 
> I do not disagree, as I never said anything about even dispersion of a speaker. I am just pointing out that we could imagine a speaker with really wide dispersion in the tweeter region that still images pretty well, but still has relatively poor polar response as a whole. In fact, I still own such a speaker.
> 
> 
> BTW, a dipole would make a great room divider for a loft style apartment. Except one side of the "divider" would hear opposite imaging, but oh well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all! What is meant by control. If you are controlling dispersion, it doesn't mean you _necessarily_ are making it focused or narrow, as you suggest. It just means that you are not plunking some drivers into a box and leaving yourself at the mercy of the driver dispersion and/or baffle. You are actively thinking about this polar response problem. This is how I look at the world. If you feel it is more accurate to call an omni a "constant directivity" design, that is fine. Semantics. BTW, some omnis have some sort of lens that helps "control" dispersion.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Who has heard this baby?
> http://www.raal-requisite.com/pages/eternity.html



Ok, it does seem that it was just sematics. We are on the same page.










You may continue posting, but I've got my eye on you.


----------



## Braviageek

I had forgotten about the the other woofer you mentioned inside the WBs. That makes sense. I think most anyone would agree that ear-level is the most appropriate location for the tweeter (looks like B&W even gets it up above the cabinet), so I'm not sure why a manufacturer would consider putting the tweeter on the bottom except for, as in WBs case, physical limitations. Can't remember which ones I've seen, but I know I've seen others that do it, too. Of course, we are talking about bookshelf/stand speakers. I am not aware of any manufacturers that would put the tweeter on the bottom of a floor-standing speaker.


----------



## mpmct




----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mpmct* /forum/post/18658648



Yes, this design is baffling. Having the tweeter slightly higher or lower than ear level is one thing, but that tweeter is on the floor! It had better have damn wide dispersion for that to work, and even then, why?


----------



## Braviageek

That's just amazing. You sure that top piece doesn't come off and they don't just have the whole thing assembled backwards? Very odd.


----------



## vantagesc

Officially, Dynaudio claims to do this for time alignment and to better work with their use of 1st order crossovers. I imagine floor bounce might be helped, though I don't know.


Speakers like this are not designed for sound quality though. Dynaudio already has their flagship line.


----------



## mpmct

Hey, they're only $70,000/pair, upside-down or not.










Can you say: 'USP'?


----------



## NoFlyZone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18657573
> 
> 
> Congratlations on acheiving a sound that gets you excited. The true test is a month from now when the "honeymoon effect" wears off and you hear the full character of the sound, not just the best parts that your brain and the endorphines running through it are telling you that the sound is orgasmic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but I've experienced many moments like you've described above after acquiring new gear, only to be let down later. Hopefully, the warts that eventually surface won't drag the experience down enough to have you on the hunt again for a while though.



No worry about a bubble being burst here but I know what you mean. We've had our moments.










The system will change due to the youth of the components. I already have used and own the DAC so I know its sound. The new PW DAC is silver and sounds better than the black one with more shimmer...


just checking.










I'm was writing about the transport, our new source and the sonic changes we are currently enjoying. Having acquired a pretty robust group of components I knew feeding this stuff with a Squeezebox and SPDIF coax although sounding wonderful was still a bottleneck to what could be and to what is now.


I am trying to keep it simple in this transition to PS Audio source(s) (Bridge in the future) in that I removed the Cary tube pre from the signal chain. Now I'm running balanced DAC to amp. The Cary always seem to add to the realness without losing much clarity in the process. It was damning how it helped in soundstage. But on the other hand I'm adding 2 boxes of electronics and all it's associated cables to the mix. Again it's damning on how good it is or was. The SLP-05 really is a fine piece. I've been moving it in and out of our system in an attempt to live without it. Maybe now I can.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NoFlyZone* /forum/post/18659151
> 
> 
> No worry about a bubble being burst here but I know what you mean. We've had our moments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The system will change due to the youth of the components. I already have used and own the DAC so I know its sound. The new PW DAC is silver and sounds better than the black one with more shimmer...
> 
> 
> just checking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm was writing about the transport, our new source and the sonic changes we are currently enjoying. Having acquired a pretty robust group of components I knew feeding this stuff with a Squeezebox and SPDIF coax although sounding wonderful was still a bottleneck to what could be and to what is now.
> 
> 
> I am trying to keep it simple in this transition to PS Audio source(s) (Bridge in the future) in that I removed the Cary tube pre from the signal chain. Now I'm running balanced DAC to amp. The Cary always seem to add to the realness without losing much clarity in the process. It was damning how it helped in soundstage. But on the other hand I'm adding 2 boxes of electronics and all it's associated cables to the mix. Again it's damning on how good it is or was. The SLP-05 really is a fine piece. I've been moving it in and out of our system in an attempt to live without it. Maybe now I can.



I'm sure that I don't have to say this, but keep the Cary around until you have lived with the new gear for a while. Good tube gear, whether it is technically "accurate" or not, does make the sound more analog and real sounding IME.


PS - you threw me for a loop for a moment with that comment on black vs. silver boxes.


----------



## Fanaticalism




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18658838
> 
> 
> Officially, Dynaudio claims to do this for time alignment and to better work with their use of 1st order crossovers. I imagine floor bounce might be helped, though I don't know.
> 
> 
> Speakers like this are not designed for sound quality though. Dynaudio already has their flagship line.



Regarding the 1st order crossover in Dynaudios, could this be the reason why the likelihood of a fried driver could be higher? I thought I read somewhere here on AVS (I think it was the Salk thread and a posting from Dennis) that 1st order xovers offer very little protection (from what, I do not remember exactly). Anyone have any info on this?


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fanaticalism* /forum/post/18660186
> 
> 
> Regarding the 1st order crossover in Dynaudios, could this be the reason why the likelihood of a fried driver could be higher? I thought I read somewhere here on AVS (I think it was the Salk thread and a posting from Dennis) that 1st order xovers offer very little protection (from what, I do not remember exactly). Anyone have any info on this?



First Order crossovers use a less steep slope (6db / octave) than 2nd (12db) or 4th (24db) Order crossovers. Theoretically, a driver could be playing over a wide range than with a steeper crossover using the same crossover point. However, in practice this is taken into account (hopefully) during design. Maybe if the amp was clipping it could damage the driver, but this seems less likely. Instead...


NoFlyZone also mentioned that he was bottoming the driver. The lower the frequency of sound, the more driver excursion is required. Basically he was playing deep bass too loudly for the driver. Maybe this had something to do with it. He also mentioned that the speaker was dropped when it was delivered.


If you mean some sort of electrical protection, I tend to discount that. One of my speakers is fully active, meaning there is NOTHING between the amplifier and the driver. The amp is wired directly to the leads of the driver. There is a danger of a loud hum or transient thump of burning out the voice coil in the tweeter, but it's generally not a problem.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fanaticalism* /forum/post/18660186
> 
> 
> Regarding the 1st order crossover in Dynaudios, could this be the reason why the likelihood of a fried driver could be higher? I thought I read somewhere here on AVS (I think it was the Salk thread and a posting from Dennis) that 1st order xovers offer very little protection (from what, I do not remember exactly). Anyone have any info on this?



Yup, vantagesc has pretty much covered it. I would just like to add a couple of things. Shallow slopped crossovers can put more potential strain on the tweeter, not the woofer because the tweeter will have to be able to withstand greater excursion at the bottom of its pass-band than one with a steep slope. Since there is little danger in overdriving a woofer with a high frequency signal at the top of it's pass band, a shallow sloped low-pass crossover is of no consequence.


Dynaudio also claims to test all of their drivers with 1000 watt bursts, so it would seem that it would take continuous high-level playback to cause driver failure, or a defective driver.


----------



## Fanaticalism

Great answers, thanks guy!


I'll just google crossover networks in speaker design and see what I come up with, as I have quite a few questions rattling around.


----------



## NoFlyZone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18663318
> 
> 
> First Order crossovers use a less steep slope (6db / octave) than 2nd (12db) or 4th (24db) Order crossovers. Theoretically, a driver could be playing over a wide range than with a steeper crossover using the same crossover point. However, in practice this is taken into account (hopefully) during design. Maybe if the amp was clipping it could damage the driver, but this seems less likely. Instead...
> 
> 
> NoFlyZone also mentioned that he was bottoming the driver. The lower the frequency of sound, the more driver excursion is required. Basically he was playing deep bass too loudly for the driver. Maybe this had something to do with it. He also mentioned that the speaker was dropped when it was delivered.
> 
> 
> If you mean some sort of electrical protection, I tend to discount that. One of my speakers is fully active, meaning there is NOTHING between the amplifier and the driver. The amp is wired directly to the leads of the driver. There is a danger of a loud hum or transient thump of burning out the voice coil in the tweeter, but it's generally not a problem.



Correction, I sold the speakers and upon delivery to their new owner UPS tossed them out of the truck damaging a grill.


There were a few passages where I disticntly heard a driver bottom out. My feeling was twofold. I wished they would have used a different xover slope and point but I understand why they didn't. It's too expensive a speaker to not do bass. In my application I have a JL Audio Fathon F113 that can easily take care of bass duties below 50Hz. I thought of getting an external active xover but then I'd compromise my system with more components, interconnects and power cable(s).


We were used to line arrays which can play at stadium levels and never break a sweat. The C1's were great, just didn't match our criteria in a few areas.

Don't get me wrong though! We aren't head bangers and don't generally play loud heavy bass music (rap/hiphop) but coming from the line arrays which performed bass amazingly, we didn't want to go backwards in SQ.


----------



## NoFlyZone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18663393
> 
> 
> Yup, vantagesc has pretty much covered it. I would just like to add a couple of things. Shallow slopped crossovers can put more potential strain on the tweeter, not the woofer because the tweeter will have to be able to withstand greater excursion at the bottom of its pass-band than one with a steep slope. Since there is little danger in overdriving a woofer with a high frequency signal at the top of it's pass band, a shallow sloped low-pass crossover is of no consequence.
> 
> 
> Dynaudio also claims to test all of their drivers with 1000 watt bursts, so it would seem that it would take continuous high-level playback to cause driver failure, or a defective driver.



Really? 1000 watts










When I heard a driver in distress, I was in distress! The volume came way down and we didn't even play the offending (Sting SACD) music again.


The actual failure was much later on during some casual listening that I noted an imbalance and discovered the dead driver. I cannot say if in fact it was due to a driver in temporary distress or out of the claimed 86 tests Dynaudio support mentioned repeatedly, 1 didn't pass


----------



## NoFlyZone

HFS (hifisponge),


I just looked at your "ever changing HT system". Damn! You've owned almost all the speakers I'd wish to try! Especially the WB Discoveries. Are they gone? Do you have somewhere in your threads your review of these little devils?


I'm looking at your room and from what I can see, which isn't much, challenges in room acoustics but hey what do I know- nothing.










Hvae you tried the _other_ Wilson?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NoFlyZone* /forum/post/18668937
> 
> 
> HFS (hifisponge),
> 
> 
> I just looked at your "ever changing HT system". Damn! You've owned almost all the speakers I'd wish to try! Especially the WB Discoveries. Are they gone? Do you have somewhere in your threads your review of these little devils?
> 
> 
> I'm looking at your room and from what I can see, which isn't much, challenges in room acoustics but hey what do I know- nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hvae you tried the _other_ Wilson?



Loved the WB's. You can find most of my thoughts on them here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1077351 


As for my room, yes the asymmetrical layout is not the best, but if you read the first few pages of this thread, you will see that the room has been acoustically treated to deal with the issues to the best of my ability.


----------



## hifisponge

My Dynaudio C1's in Piano Black Lacquer + Stand4's arrived today as expected. I have to finish out my day at work before I can assemble the stands and listen to them, but I did pull one of the speakers out the box. My word they have to be the most impeccably built and finished speakers I've ever owned. The gloss finish is mirror smooth-- no exaggeration. The gloss finish on the B&W's they are replacing was very nice, but these are even a step up from that. The Danish have a well-deserved reputation for cabinet work.


I have purchased some felt to go between the top of the stands and the bottom of the speaker. They are just too beautiful to risk damaging the finish in any way.


----------



## adidino




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18688037
> 
> 
> My Dynaudio C1's in Piano Black Lacquer + Stand4's arrived today as expected. I have to finish out my day at work before I can assemble the stands and listen to them, but I did pull one of the speakers out the box. My word they have to be the most impeccably built and finished speakers I've ever owned. The gloss finish is mirror smooth-- no exaggeration. The gloss finish on the B&W's they are replacing was very nice, except on the face of the speaker, which was quite wavy. The Danish have a well-deserved reputation for cabinet work.
> 
> 
> I have purchased some felt to go between the top of the stands and the bottom of the speaker. They are just too beautiful to risk damaging the finish in any way.



post your pics!







Never saw these in black gloss. I'm sure they look incredible.


----------



## fiogray




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18688037
> 
> 
> My Dynaudio C1's in Piano Black Lacquer + Stand4's arrived today as expected. I have to finish out my day at work before I can assemble the stands and listen to them, but I did pull one of the speakers out the box. My word they have to be the most impeccably built and finished speakers I've ever owned. The gloss finish is mirror smooth-- no exaggeration. The gloss finish on the B&W's they are replacing was very nice, except on the face of the speaker, which was quite wavy. The Danish have a well-deserved reputation for cabinet work.
> 
> 
> I have purchased some felt to go between the top of the stands and the bottom of the speaker. They are just too beautiful to risk damaging the finish in any way.



Congratulations on your new speakers. It would be interesting to know what sonic differences you find between these C1's and the 805 diamond. Both impressive minimonitors for sure.


----------



## Fanaticalism

Pic-tures! Pic-tures! Pic-tures!


----------



## hifisponge

It took me longer than I figured to assemble the stands and attach them to the speakers because getting the bags full of sand into the columns was a tight fit to say the least.


Here are just a couple of quick and dirty pics.




















I'm going to give it a while before posting any listening impressions, as I have a habit of swooning over a set of new speakers only to feel differently after I settle into the sound. I'm sure that anyone that has followed this thread understands.


----------



## DrkWhtGuy

Oh wow! They are puuuuuurdy.


Can't wait to find out your final verdict on these beauties.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18689641
> 
> 
> It took me longer than I figured to assemble the stands and attach them to the speakers because getting the bags full of sand into the columns was a tight fit to say the least.
> 
> 
> Here are just a couple of quick and dirty pics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to give it a while before posting any listening impressions, as I have a habit of swooning over a set of new speakers only to feel differently after I settle into the sound. I'm sure that anyone that has followed this thread understands.



Wow, those are cool. Although very funky looking. What's the purpose of having the faceplate?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18691910
> 
> 
> Wow, those are cool. Although very funky looking. What's the purpose of having the faceplate?



Yeah, they are a love it / hate it design. The faceplate is to decouple the drivers from the box and to lower difraction. The face is HDF, then there is a gasket between that and the MDF box. The thinking is that all of these layers between the driver and the box reduce mechanical vibration from traveling through the box.


----------



## Daman S

Again, just a great pleasure to go through the thread and look at your endeavors in achieving acoustical niravana Tim







The new Dynaudios look sexy! Are you going to be using them for stereo only in a secondary room? Again,very very nice!


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks Daman. Nope these will be my main HT / Music system speakers. But I'm trying out the stereo pair before commiting to the rest of the speakers.










Frankly, I really hope these are in the ballpark because I'm ready to settle down for a while. The hunt can be fun, but I am ready to stop if the Audio Gods will allow it.


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18693532
> 
> 
> Thanks Daman. Nope these will be my main HT / Music system speakers. But I'm trying out the stereo pair before commiting to the rest of the speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I really hope these are in the ballpark because I'm ready to settle down for a while. The hunt can be fun, but I am ready to stop if the Audio Gods will allow it.



There's two sides to this. On the one hand we hope you settle on a set of speakers (Audio gods willing) for your own sake. On the other hand, half the fun of following this thread is wondering what will Tim get next (and when will Tim become a dealer since you have listened to and owned many top brands). I think I'm going to start a betting pool among the audio geeks on this forum










Now I have to say that the C1's don't really do it for me in the looks department, but of course you know I'm biased since I adopted a pair of your B&W 805Di. The 805Di (The black 800 series in general) in Black with the distinctive yellow Kevlar mid / bass really is visually attractive. But, I know that if you have a pair of the C1's it's because they sound really good. So, just like everyone else I'm waiting to read the first impression and then the detailed write up on these speakers (Then maybe my opinion of the looks will fade knowing it's only skin / MDF deep.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ERAU23* /forum/post/18693891
> 
> 
> There's two sides to this. On the one hand we hope you settle on a set of speakers (Audio gods willing) for your own sake. On the other hand, half the fun of following this thread is wondering what will Tim get next (and when will Tim become a dealer since you have listened to and owned many top brands). I think I'm going to start a betting pool among the audio geeks on this forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I have to say that the C1's don't really do it for me in the looks department, but of course you know I'm biased since I adopted a pair of your B&W 805Di. The 805Di (The black 800 series in general) in Black with the distinctive yellow Kevlar mid / bass really is visually attractive. But, I know that if you have a pair of the C1's it's because they sound really good. So, just like everyone else I'm waiting to read the first impression and then the detailed write up on these speakers (Then maybe my opinion of the looks will fade knowing it's only skin / MDF deep.



Thanks ERAU23.










Yes, the cabinet design of the C1's seem to generate polar opinions. I happen to like the modern Scandinavian design, but I understand why others would find them strange looking. Those 805Di's are gorgeous though. B&W did everything about updating the look of those speakers just right. I hope you are enjoying them!


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18691951
> 
> 
> Yeah, they are a love it / hate it design. The faceplate is to decouple the drivers from the box and to lower difraction. The face is HDF, then there is a gasket between that and the MDF box. The thinking is that all of these layers between the driver and the box reduce mechanical vibration from traveling through the box.



I'm not sure what to think of the aesthetics but I have a feeling it's one of those speakers that looks a lot better in person.


I know you don't want to commit to making any declaration whether they are keepers but any initial thoughts on the character of the sound?


----------



## hifisponge

Hi chjo100 –


Yes, the cabinet design is one of those things that you have to see in person to fully appreciate, especially the workmanship. The fit and finish are the best of any speaker I’ve owned.


As for the sound, well, I have really only spent a couple hours of dedicated listening with them and according to Dynaudio, they need a bit of play time on them to settle into their final sound, so we’ll have to see if things change over time.


With that disclaimer out of the way, they are very impressive speakers for sure. However, I find it difficult to describe their character without sounding like a rehash of the descriptions I’ve used to describe several other speakers I’ve owned, or sounding like some clichéd AV review. The C1’s are highly resolving, with outstanding treble detail and extension and bass to match, while the midrange sounds open, direct and honest. That reads a whole lot like what I said about the 805Di’s, and yet they still sound different in their own way.


I guess what stands out the most with the Dynaudio C1’s is their resolution, maybe because I wasn’t expecting it. Even though they use somewhat “old fashioned” driver materials (silk and plastic), the clarity and the detail are every bit the equal to diamond tweets in the 805Di, and *maybe* to these ears even a slight bit better. I use the track “So Much to Say” by Dave Mathews as one of my references for treble detail and for evaluating a speakers ability to resolve through layers of different sounds / instruments. About a minute into this song when it really gets going, amongst all of the other instruments, very faintly in the background you can hear a triangle being struck over on the right side of the stage. This easily gets lost on most speakers because it is so buried in the mix. With the C1’s, that small little triangle sound stood out clearly from the rest of what is going on (vocals, bass, lead guitar, percussion, and horns).


In that regard they are equal to the 805Di, but for me where they pull ahead, is that they do this without adding that etched character I hear from so many hard dome tweets. However, while the etched quality that I heard with the Diamond tweets is gone, the C1’s don’t sweeten up the sound either. What I’m getting at here is that I still hear some things on certain songs that are edgy, but it seems more clear to me now that this quality is in the recording. I will never know for sure, since I was not at the mastering desk for any of the music I listen to, but what leads me to believe it is the recording is that the edgy quality comes and goes, and it doesn’t always have the same character.


I should mention that one of my worries before buying the C1’s was that I had read that some people felt they were somewhat lacking in treble extension. I was willing to accept this compromise as long I liked their sound on the whole. I’m happy to report in my room with my gear, there is nothing at all lacking in the balance, extension, or resolution of the tweeter.


Another thing that comes to mind with the C1’s is that they sound coherent. The *character* of the treble and the midrange sound the same. With some other recent speakers, there was a sense that the treble stood apart from the midrange, like it was riding on top of the music instead of being part of it.


The bass of the C1’s is bloody impressive too. When I picked up the Canton 9.2s, I was first exposed to the sort of bass output possible from a stand mount speaker. Unfortunately, it was a bit too much of a good thing with that speaker, as it sounded a bit out of balance with the mids and there was some lower midrange resonance that would creep in. Then came the 805Di-- another small speaker with great bass. They didn’t play as low as the Canton, but the balance was better. And this porridge is just right . . . The C1’s have the extension of the Canton and the balance / control of the B&W. I could easily listen to the C1’s full range (and have been) and feel no strong need for a sub. With room gain, I’m getting a solid 30Hz from them. I will still end up using my JL sub the majority of the time, but it is fun to hear such a small speaker produce such capable bass.


As for the midrange, the C1's have an open, direct and uncolored sound, but at this point it is also a bit on the cool side. It could use a bit more body. How much of this is “break-in”, room coupling, or just the character of the speaker, I don’t know. Dynaudio says give them some time, so I will. I will also play with speaker position and EQ to see if I can get a bit better balance. However, even if they were to remain exactly the same, I think this is a compromise I can live with.


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18693532
> 
> 
> Thanks Daman. Nope these will be my main HT / Music system speakers. But I'm trying out the stereo pair before commiting to the rest of the speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I really hope these are in the ballpark because I'm ready to settle down for a while. The hunt can be fun, but I am ready to stop if the Audio Gods will allow it.



Oh! I thought you had settled in on the B&W Diamonds from the photos i saw earlier in the thread. How i envy you for being able to try out all these babies at home










I'm still happy with my Dali's for now, but when the upgrade bug strikes a few years down the line ill know who to ask


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18698124
> 
> 
> Oh! I thought you had settled in on the B&W Diamonds from the photos i saw earlier in the thread. How i envy you for being able to try out all these babies at home
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still happy with my Dali's for now, but when the upgrade bug strikes a few years down the line ill know who to ask



I think you may find a different sound from the Dali's, but not necessarily a better sound (at least not all around). It's all subjective though, so what's different may seem better to you at the time you're ready for a change.


But then I'm biased, since Dali Helicons are some of my favorite speakers. Very easy to listen to without sacrificing too much detail. A very "musical" speaker for a lack of better words.


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18697669
> 
> 
> Hi chjo100 -
> 
> 
> Yes, the cabinet design is one of those things that you have to see in person to fully appreciate, especially the workmanship. The fit and finish are the best of any speaker I've owned.
> 
> 
> As for the sound, well, I have really only spent a couple hours of dedicated listening with them and according to Dynaudio, they need a bit of play time on them to settle into their final sound, so we'll have to see if things change over time.
> 
> 
> With that disclaimer out of the way, they are very impressive speakers for sure. However, I find it difficult to describe their character without sounding like a rehash of the descriptions I've used to describe several other speakers I've owned, or sounding like some clichéd AV review. The C1's are highly resolving, with outstanding treble detail and extension and bass to match, while the midrange sounds open, direct and honest. That reads a whole lot like what I said about the 805Di's, and yet they still sound different in their own way.
> 
> 
> I guess what stands out the most with the Dynaudio C1's is their resolution, maybe because I wasn't expecting it. Even though they use somewhat old fashioned driver materials (silk and plastic), the clarity and the detail are every bit the equal to diamond tweets in the 805Di, and *maybe* to these ears even a slight bit better. I use the track So Much to Say by Dave Mathews as one of my references for treble detail and for evaluating a speakers ability to resolve through layers of different sounds / instruments. About a minute into this song when it really gets going, amongst all of the other instruments, very faintly in the background you can hear a triangle being struck over on the right side of the stage. This easily gets lost on most speakers because it is so buried in the mix. With the C1's, that small little triangle sound stood out clearly from the rest of what is going on (vocals, bass, lead guitar, percussion, and horns).
> 
> 
> In that regard they are equal to the 805Di, but for me where they pull ahead, is that they do this without adding that etched character I hear from so many hard dome tweets. However, while the etched quality that I heard with the Diamond tweets is gone, the C1's don't sweeten up the sound either. What I'm getting at here is that I still hear some things on certain songs that are edgy, but it seems more clear to me now that this quality is in the recording. I will never know for sure, since I was not at the mastering desk for any of the music I listen to, but what leads me to believe it is the recording is that the edgy quality comes and goes, and it doesn't always have the same character.
> 
> 
> I should mention that one of my worries before buying the C1's was that I had read that some people felt they were somewhat lacking in treble extension. I was willing to accept this compromise as long I liked their sound on the whole. I'm happy to report in my room with my gear, there is nothing at all lacking in the balance, extension, or resolution of the tweeter.
> 
> 
> Another thing that comes to mind with the C1's is that they sound coherent. The *character* of the treble and the midrange sound the same. With some other recent speakers, there was a sense that the treble stood apart from the midrange, like it was riding on top of the music instead of being part of it.
> 
> 
> The bass of the C1's is bloody impressive too. When I picked up the Canton 9.2s, I was first exposed to the sort of bass output possible from a stand mount speaker. Unfortunately, it was a bit too much of a good thing with that speaker, as it sounded a bit out of balance with the mids and there was some lower midrange resonance that would creep in. Then came the 805Di-- another small speaker with great bass. They didn't play as low as the Canton, but the balance was better. And this porridge is just right . . . The C1's have the extension of the Canton and the balance / control of the B&W. I could easily listen to the C1's full range (and have been) and feel no strong need for a sub. With room gain, I'm getting a solid 30Hz from them. I will still end up using my JL sub the majority of the time, but it is fun to hear such a small speaker produce such capable bass.
> 
> 
> As for the midrange, the C1's have an open, direct and uncolored sound, but at this point it is also a bit on the cool side. It could use a bit more body. How much of this is break-in, room coupling, or just the character of the speaker, I don't know. Dynaudio says give them some time, so I will. I will also play with speaker position and EQ to see if I can get a bit better balance. However, even if they were to remain exactly the same, I think this is a compromise I can live with.



Tim,


Nice write up (As expected). Good to see that last sentence. After you settle in a little more I may trouble you for a listening session. I'm interested in improving my perception of sound. As mentioned previously I think you have a highly developed sense of sound and nuances that I would not hear because of your vast experience with different systems.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ERAU23* /forum/post/18698388
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> Nice write up (As expected). Good to see that last sentence. After you settle in a little more I may trouble you for a listening session. I'm interested in improving my perception of sound. As mentioned previously I think you have a highly developed sense of sound and nuances that I would not hear because of your vast experience with different systems.



You're certainly welcome to come back for a listen. Bring the 805Di's with ya and we'll do a face-off.


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18698195
> 
> 
> I think you may find a different sound from the Dali's, but not necessarily a better sound (at least not all around). It's all subjective though, so what's different may seem better to you at the time you're ready for a change.
> 
> 
> But then I'm biased, since Dali Helicons are some of my favorite speakers. Very easy to listen to without sacrificing too much detail. A very "musical" speaker for a lack of better words.



Hmm.. different sounds fair enough Tim. I did audition around 15 different speaker brands over a course of few months myself before i settled on the Dalis. I choose them mainly because of their musical qualities(i do listen to quite a bit of music), and i still love them for that. I certainly did not like anything too forward sounding(say like the Theils), but Dynaudio and B&W Diamonds impressed me the most apart from Dalis.


Funnily I had Sonus Fabers on top of the list, but i heard them in a totally treated room and when i asked the dealer to move them to another area to compare they just fell flat. Tells me how drastically good acoustical treatments can improve the sound.


My only problem right now is my room is too large for the Helicons(i have the 400s) to really shine, but hopefully that will go away as i plan to build out a smaller room within the current one.


I'll be checking back within a few months to see how you feel about the Dyna's after the initial wow factor for sure (I'm very aware of that phenomenon myself







).


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18701071
> 
> 
> Hmm.. different sounds fair enough Tim. I did audition around 15 different speaker brands over a course of few months myself before i settled on the Dalis. I choose them mainly because of their musical qualities(i do listen to quite a bit of music), and i still love them for that. I certainly did not like anything too forward sounding(say like the Theils), but Dynaudio and B&W Diamonds impressed me the most apart from Dalis.
> 
> 
> Funnily I had Sonus Fabers on top of the list, but i heard them in a totally treated room and when i asked the dealer to move them to another area to compare they just fell flat. Tells me how drastically good acoustical treatments can improve the sound.
> 
> 
> My only problem right now is my room is too large for the Helicons(i have the 400s) to really shine, but hopefully that will go away as i plan to build out a smaller room within the current one.
> 
> 
> I'll be checking back within a few months to see how you feel about the Dyna's after the initial wow factor for sure (I'm very aware of that phenomenon myself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ).



Wow, 15 different speaker auditions! You are not too far off from my count.










Good luck on your room build!


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18701770
> 
> 
> Wow, 15 different speaker auditions! You are not too far off from my count.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck on your room build!



Lol but i did not have the luxury of hearing them in my house










I went to various dealers to check them out and you know how subjective that becomes.. different amps, different rooms, very hard to compare even with the same source cd I used to take along.


Thanks a lot for the good luck, i'll need it! Good part is,It's been wife approved(at least for now







) so the hard work is done.


----------



## CorboDuze

Is there a meaningful comparison to make between Denon/DA and Classe/WB ?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18701989
> 
> 
> Lol but i did not have the luxury of hearing them in my house
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went to various dealers to check them out and you know how subjective that becomes.. different amps, different rooms, very hard to compare even with the same source cd I used to take along.
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot for the good luck, i'll need it! Good part is,It's been wife approved(at least for now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) so the hard work is done.



Yeah, the ability to audition equipment is a broken system IMO. So many variables, and no way to get them to fully line up outside of doing what I've done, which is buy-n-try and sell off if it doesn't work out. Most people aren't willing to do that, and I completely understand why. They shouldn't have to.


Congrats on the wife's approval. It's all downhill from there.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/18702120
> 
> 
> Is there a meaningful comparison to make between Denon/DA and Classe/WB ?



Sorry, I'm not clear on the question.


----------



## CorboDuze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18702199
> 
> 
> Sorry, I'm not clear on the question.



Listening to the new system, do you think it would be fair to compare it with this other system you had (Classe/WB), or do you consider that such comparison should not be made because of a difference in the price range or other factors? In short: are these two systems playing in the same "league"


Additional suggestion: as we assume that you are completely independent from manufacturers, it would be interesting if you would share with us your "official" ranking of these past systems, based on your own overall preference/satisfaction...(Current system should be excluded from the ranking, of course...)


Thanks.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/18702703
> 
> 
> Listening to the new system, do you think it would be fair to compare it with this other system you had (Classe/WB), or do you consider that such comparison should not be made because of a difference in the price range or other factors? In short: are these two systems playing in the same "league"
> 
> 
> Additional suggestion: as we assume that you are completely independent from manufacturers, it would be interesting if you would share with us your "official" ranking of these past systems, based on your own overall preference/satisfaction...(Current system should be excluded from the ranking, of course...)
> 
> 
> Thanks.



I see. Well, I've still got some kinks to work out, but it is my hope that when I'm done, my current system will be as enjoyable as the WB / Classe, though not necessarily in the same ways.


I've been asked for a pecking order before, and I'll see what I can do, but often times I find that there is no absolute order to things. One set-up might have a great soundstage and imaging, while another has perfect tone, or outstanding dynamics, or what have you, but none of them are going to have all of these things at once. Which is good, better, best depends on what you are after and where you are willing to make compromises.


This is why I've chosen to give my qualitative review of the speakers I've owned / audtioned. This way you can decide if a particular speaker lines up with your values rather than mine. Of course, even this approach is relative, as what I consider to be a wide soundstage may seem less than so to you if your reference is different than mine.


It's all very complicated.


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18702772
> 
> 
> I see. Well, I've still got some kinks to work out, but it is my hope that when I'm done, my current system will be as enjoyable as the WB / Classe, though not necessarily in the same ways.
> 
> 
> I've been asked for a pecking order before, and I'll see what I can do, but often times I find that there is no absolute order to things. One set-up might have a great soundstage and imaging, while another has perfect tone, or outstanding dynamics, or what have you, but none of them are going to have all of these things at once. Which is good, better, best depends on what you are after and where you are willing to make compromises.
> 
> 
> This is why I've chosen to give my qualitative review of the speakers I've owned / audtioned. This way you can decide if a particular speaker lines up with your values rather than mine. Of course, even this approach is relative, as what I consider to be a wide soundstage may seem less than so to you if your reference is different than mine.
> 
> 
> It's all very complicated.



To further this discussion. IMO based on my relatively short period of time in this audio hobby. There are three basic classes of audio equipment from my perspective; Reference Grade, Audiophile grade, and consumer grade. One could say relatively easy that Tim's Classe / WB is / was a reference grade system and the Denon / DA system is a hybrid of sorts since the speakers would fall in the reference grade on price alone and the Denon is squarely in the audiophile grade of components.


I think Tim (Not to talk about and analyze you in the third person...sorry







) is trying to answer a few basic questions in a very prescribed experiment. That is if I purchase high end end reference grade equipment, perform acoustic treatments to my room, upgrade all of my cables ...etc (All the variables). (Within my personal budget and means) will I achieve the holy grail in terms of sound quality. Now he is asking the same question of a audiophile grade / hybrid system.


As a engineer (by training), I see the logic and I'm intrigued by the question; what can be achieved at each level (For Tim most likely only the Reference and Audiophile grade level will be tested) and what level of trade-off is required at what cost? Tim is taking on the challenge in front of everyone on the forum. Answering such questions in such a prescribed and public way really does grow and educate the community.


My opinions....of course.

Ed


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ERAU23* /forum/post/18703072
> 
> 
> To further this discussion. IMO based on my relatively short period of time in this audio hobby. There are three basic classes of audio equipment from my perspective; Reference Grade, Audiophile grade, and consumer grade. One could say relatively easy that Tim's Classe / WB is / was a reference grade system and the Denon / DA system is a hybrid of sorts since the speakers would fall in the reference grade on price alone and the Denon is squarely in the audiophile grade of components.
> 
> 
> I think Tim (Not to talk about and analyze you in the third person...sorry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) is trying to answer a few basic questions in a very prescribed experiment. That is if I purchase high end end reference grade equipment, perform acoustic treatments to my room, upgrade all of my cables ...etc (All the variables). (Within my personal budget and means) will I achieve the holy grail in terms of sound quality. Now he is asking the same question of a audiophile grade / hybrid system.
> 
> 
> As a engineer (by training), I see the logic and I'm intrigued by the question; what can be achieved at each level (For Tim most likely only the Reference and Audiophile grade level will be tested) and what level of trade-off is required at what cost? Tim is taking on the challenge in front of everyone on the forum. Answering such questions in such a prescribed and public way really does grow and educate the community.
> 
> 
> My opinions....of course.
> 
> Ed



Astutely put Ed.







My original goal was to get as far down on the audiophile grade ladder of components as I could, to see how close I could get to reference grade. I've actually heard a very modest NHT speaker system that I enjoyed listening to very much. It wasn't the last word in resolution, but an excellent sounding system overall. In fact that system was my inspiration for parting with my reference system.


But the truth is, when the rubber met the road and I was looking into relatively inexpensive gear, I just couldn't compromise as much as I thought I could. I have a thing for build quality.







So I decided to go hybrid as Ed put it, placing the majority of my money into speakers.


I still have some work to do before I can make a final call on how it all turned out, but I will be sure to post my findings when I do.


----------



## CorboDuze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ERAU23* /forum/post/18703072
> 
> 
> To further this discussion. IMO based on my relatively short period of time in this audio hobby. There are three basic classes of audio equipment from my perspective; Reference Grade, Audiophile grade, and consumer grade. One could say relatively easy that Tim's Classe / WB is / was a reference grade system and the Denon / DA system is a hybrid of sorts since the speakers would fall in the reference grade on price alone and the Denon is squarely in the audiophile grade of components.
> 
> 
> I think Tim (Not to talk about and analyze you in the third person...sorry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) is trying to answer a few basic questions in a very prescribed experiment. That is if I purchase high end end reference grade equipment, perform acoustic treatments to my room, upgrade all of my cables ...etc (All the variables). (Within my personal budget and means) will I achieve the holy grail in terms of sound quality. Now he is asking the same question of a audiophile grade / hybrid system.
> 
> 
> As a engineer (by training), I see the logic and I'm intrigued by the question; what can be achieved at each level (For Tim most likely only the Reference and Audiophile grade level will be tested) and what level of trade-off is required at what cost? Tim is taking on the challenge in front of everyone on the forum. Answering such questions in such a prescribed and public way really does grow and educate the community.
> 
> 
> My opinions....of course.
> 
> Ed



Very interesting ideas....


In your opinion, what are the criteria to distinguish the 3 classes?

How do we determine that one system belongs to a given class versus another? Are the class discrete or is it a continuum?


Also what about the rankings within each class? It is easy to find plenty of low performing "consumer grade" systems. But can a bad "reference class" system exist?


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/18711053
> 
> 
> Very interesting ideas....
> 
> 
> In your opinion, what are the criteria to distinguish the 3 classes?
> 
> How do we determine that one system belongs to a given class versus another? Are the class discrete or is it a continuum?
> 
> 
> Also what about the rankings within each class? It is easy to find plenty of low performing "consumer grade" systems. But can a bad "reference class" system exist?



Good questions.....


Not to sound too much like the capitalist that I'm, but IMO I think the market determines the three classes based on performance / value and as such price is what distinguishes the three classes.


Most dealers try to separate the classes by having them in different rooms. Most of the time this is based on price as well. Companies try to help the buyer by giving a component a "Reference" or "Audiophile" name, but really it's to justify the price.


Price also is the distinguishing factor within class / brand For example look at The B&W Group which includes the B&W speaker line, The Rotel product line and the Classe product line. The B&W group bought this group of companies IMO because there are complementary to each other. With the same company you can move from $500 to $20,000 plus speakers. Also you can move from $1500 receiver with Rotel to $10,000 pre / pro and another $15,000 for the amplifiers with Classe within the same company.


I think there is a high degree of subjectivity to audio as a hobby relative to the buyer's financial situation, expectations, knowledge, room environment and preferences ...etc. As such you can have a "bad reference system" or better stated a poorly matched / set-up relative to the buyer.


I tried to keep my answers clear and to the point, but a lot more can be said. Many more factors can be considered, but IMO those other factors are implied / embedded within the "Price" factor , and really just complicate the equation or problem to be solved.


Ed


----------



## hifisponge

Well guys, I'm slowly coming to realize that I was probably overly optimistic in thinking that I could achieve the sound quality I had with the Classe / WB system on a budget. I've been through a few high quality speakers in the past few months and I'm hearing the same unnaturally etched, electronic sound quality from all of them. At first I thought the edgy quality was because the previous speakers used hard dome tweets, but now that I hear something similar in the Dyns, it seems that I didn't give enough credit to the Classe for the smooth, natural sound quality I had before the change.


The Dyns supposedly need time to break-in, so I will give them more time, but I am preparing myself to have to go back to a better front end.


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18714536
> 
> 
> Well guys, I'm slowly coming to realize that I was probably overly optimistic in thinking that I could achieve the sound quality I had with the Classe / WB system on a budget. I've been through a few high quality speakers in the past few months and I'm hearing the same unnaturally etched, electronic sound quality from all of them. At first I thought the edgy quality was because the previous speakers used hard dome tweets, but now that I hear something similar in the Dyns, it seems that I didn't give enough credit to the Classe for the smooth, natural sound quality I had before the change.
> 
> 
> The Dyns supposedly need time to break-in, so I will give them more time, but I am preparing myself to have to go back to a better front end.



So, what are thinking about?....back to Classe? I think I remember you saying that you sold your Classe to a local buyer. Maybe listening to the Dyns with your old front end.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18714536
> 
> 
> Well guys, I'm slowly coming to realize that I was probably overly optimistic in thinking that I could achieve the sound quality I had with the Classe / WB system on a budget. I've been through a few high quality speakers in the past few months and I'm hearing the same unnaturally etched, electronic sound quality from all of them. At first I thought the edgy quality was because the previous speakers used hard dome tweets, but now that I hear something similar in the Dyns, it seems that I didn't give enough credit to the Classe for the smooth, natural sound quality I had before the change.
> 
> 
> The Dyns supposedly need time to break-in, so I will give them more time, but I am preparing myself to have to go back to a better front end.



If only the stock market was this easy to predict.







Ugh, I feel for you Tim.


Was the Classe gear giving you any problems reliability wise?


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18714536
> 
> 
> Well guys, I'm slowly coming to realize that I was probably overly optimistic in thinking that I could achieve the sound quality I had with the Classe / WB system on a budget. I've been through a few high quality speakers in the past few months and I'm hearing the same unnaturally etched, electronic sound quality from all of them. At first I thought the edgy quality was because the previous speakers used hard dome tweets, but now that I hear something similar in the Dyns, it seems that I didn't give enough credit to the Classe for the smooth, natural sound quality I had before the change.
> 
> 
> The Dyns supposedly need time to break-in, so I will give them more time, but I am preparing myself to have to go back to a better front end.



Tim,

Do you feel this is an issue with just the speakers or the amp? What about if you switched to a Classe with the current Dynas?


----------



## Fanaticalism

My vote goes to McIntosh.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ERAU23* /forum/post/18714677
> 
> 
> So, what are thinking about?....back to Classe? I think I remember you saying that you sold your Classe to a local buyer. Maybe listening to the Dyns with your old front end.



Yup, that's the plan. Though, I would like to see if I can find someone locally that has an SSP-800 that I might be able to try out first, but that is a long shot.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18715516
> 
> 
> If only the stock market was this easy to predict.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ugh, I feel for you Tim.



Ha! Well, it has been a learning experience.



> Quote:
> Was the Classe gear giving you any problems reliability wise?



Yes, I had some issues with the Classe, but the bugs were pretty minor in the scheme of things and the Classe was forthright in addressing the hardware issues. Much better than Denon has been.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18715634
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> Do you feel this is an issue with just the speakers or the amp? What about if you switched to a Classe with the current Dynas? What combination of speakers are you thinking of switching to if you go over to Classe? I'm very interested in hearing your thoughts as you break in the Dynas.



At this point, considering that I've heard the same edgy / grainy character trait from two very high quality and very different speakers (B&W and Dynaudio), I can only assume the sound is happening somewhere in the front end. Over the weekend, just to be sure that there wasn't some sort of gremlin in the in-wall wiring of my AV cabinet, I pulled the Denon and the Mac Mini (music server) out of the cabinet and hooked them up on the living room floor. No change.


And I have to say, that where my Mac Mini used to sound like a reference CD player when connected t the Classe, connected to the Denon, it now sounds like an iPod. For some reason it sounds even worse than movie playback via HDMI.


The funny thing is, I had this EXACT SAME ISSUE (grainy / edgy sound) the last time I changed my system. In fact it was the reason I went through many speakers, amps, and CD players the last time. The tricky thing is that some of this is the speaker and some of it is the front end, which makes it difficult to unravel the problem. The only thing I have to go on at the moment is that the Dynaudio C1 speakers have been around for a while, and there are many personal and professional reviews of them. In all of them, the common traits described are smooth and natural. And knowing that it is very unlikely that a quality soft dome tweet would have a granular, edgy quality, I'm going to work under the assumption that the speakers are fine, and start looking into changing the front end.


----------



## chjo100

Maybe there is something to those jitter measurements. It may explain your experience with the Mac Mini with Denon versus Classe.


Just curious but do you hear the grainy or etched quality on movie playback as well? The only integrated receiver where I didn't hear that quality with music was with the Arcam AVR600.


I think it's time to revisit Classe Tim







It would be interesting to see what you hear with Dynaudio C1 + Classe versus the WB + Classe setup.


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18715910
> 
> 
> And I have to say, that where my Mac Mini used to sound like a reference CD player when connected t the Classe, connected to the Denon, it now sounds like an iPod. For some reason it sounds even worse than movie playback via HDMI.



That alone would convince me something is not working well with the pre-pro and the current speakers.


It surely sucks though, when you realize that what you have just doesn't cut it.. happened to me quite a few times as well.. that's when the upgraditis strikes










I'm sure there would be some Sq differences between the Dynas and the BW's but that shouldn't be as drastic as you are finding. Hope you can find the Classe Pre to compare and see if the Denon is the weakest link.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18716556
> 
> 
> Maybe there is something to those jitter measurements. It may explain your experience with the Mac Mini with Denon versus Classe.
> 
> 
> Just curious but do you hear the grainy or etched quality on movie playback as well? The only integrated receiver where I didn't hear that quality with music was with the Arcam AVR600.
> 
> 
> I think it's time to revisit Classe Tim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would be interesting to see what you hear with Dynaudio C1 + Classe versus the WB + Classe setup.



Yes, I hear the problem with all sources (cable, blu ray, and music), but it is the worst with music coming out of the mac. I starting picking up on some added brightness from the Mac over the weekend, which seems to emphasize the problem.


The odd thing is, if you remember, I just went to Magnolia AV and listened to the Denon vs the Arcam and found that they sounded remarkably similar and I don't recall either of them sounding like what I have going on at home. Of course this was through different and less expensive speakers than what I have at home, so I wonder if some of this being that the B&Ws and Dyns are both more revealing of problems up stream. Kinda like watching SD on an HDTV. Play an SD signal through an SD TV and things look acceptable, but play SD on an HD set and it looks like garbage. That sort of thing.


Back on your comment about the Arcam for a moment. Are you saying that you hear the problem I describe too? Sometimes I wonder if it is just me. But then I think back to what I had with the WB / Classe, and this was not an issue.


Its just so hard to pinpoint the problem. Is it the recording, the amp, the preamp, the DAC, the speakers, the room, my hearing? I dumped the B&Ws thinking it was the speakers, and now it seems that there is a good chance the B&Ws were fine.


Maybe I should bring my Dyns to Magnolia to see if they sound the same on their Denon and also to compare to Arcam or others? It's tricky though because it can take a while for me to settle into the sound before I pick-up on the edginess.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18716672
> 
> 
> That alone would convince me something is not working well with the pre-pro and the current speakers.
> 
> 
> It surely sucks though, when you realize that what you have just doesn't cut it.. happened to me quite a few times as well.. that's when the upgraditis strikes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure there would be some Sq differences between the Dynas and the BW's but that shouldn't be as drastic as you are finding. Hope you can find the Classe Pre to compare and see if the Denon is the weakest link.



While it seems that based on my experience that this expectation is unrealistic, wouldn't it be nice if everything above a certain price point sounded good? I wouldn't mind it if this peice of gear provided a different perspective on the sound than that piece of gear as long as they were both enjoyable. But what I find is that there is so little that I can tolerate let alone enjoy. I really try not to have high expectations and listen to the music vs the gear, but my damn brain won't let me.


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18716902
> 
> 
> While it seems that based on my experience that this expectation is unrealistic, wouldn't it be nice if everything above a certain price point sounded good? I wouldn't mind it if this peice of gear provided a different perspective on the sound than that piece of gear as long as they were both enjoyable. But what I find is that there is so little that I can tolerate let alone enjoy. I really try not to have high expectations and listen to the music vs the gear, but my damn brain won't let me.



A big +1 to that!


You are not alone in getting the audio nag.. if there is something bothering me, my brain just won't let me ignore it no matter how hard i try. My wife used to be sick of me running the SPL tests at unearthly hours of the night. Thankfully i have a basement now so it doesn't bother her so much










I also think that once you have heard to the mid/high end gear, going back is tough. I was very very happy with my entry level setup for years till i started getting the upgraditis and auditioning 'stuff'. Unfortunately there's no going back from the Dark side


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18716967
> 
> 
> A big +1 to that!
> 
> 
> You are not alone in getting the audio nag.. if there is something bothering me, my brain just won't let me ignore it no matter how hard i try. My wife used to be sick of me running the SPL tests at unearthly hours of the night. Thankfully i have a basement now so it doesn't bother her so much
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also think that once you have heard to the mid/high end gear, going back is tough. I was very very happy with my entry level setup for years till i started getting the upgraditis and auditioning 'stuff'. Unfortunately there's no going back from the Dark side



Unfortunately for me, high-end gear is not excluded from my brain's ability to reject it. Hence the wake of high-end speakers and processors behind me.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18716783
> 
> 
> Yes, I hear the problem with all sources (cable, blu ray, and music), but it is the worst with music coming out of the mac. I starting picking up on some added brightness from the Mac over the weekend, which seems to emphasize the problem.
> 
> 
> The odd thing is, if you remember, I just went to Magnolia AV and listened to the Denon vs the Arcam and found that they sounded remarkably similar and I don't recall either of them sounding like what I have going on at home. Of course this was through different and less expensive speakers than what I have at home, so I wonder if some of this being that the B&Ws and Dyns are both more revealing of problems up stream. Kinda like watching SD on an HDTV. Play an SD signal through an SD TV and things look acceptable, but play SD on an HD set and it looks like garbage. That sort of thing.
> 
> 
> Back on your comment about the Arcam for a moment. Are you saying that you hear the problem I describe too? Sometimes I wonder if it is just me. But then I think back to what I had with the WB / Classe, and this was not an issue.
> 
> 
> Its just so hard to pinpoint the problem. Is it the recording, the amp, the preamp, the DAC, the speakers, the room, my hearing? I dumped the B&Ws thinking it was the speakers, and now it seems that there is a good chance the B&Ws were fine.
> 
> 
> Maybe I should bring my Dyns to Magnolia to see if they sound the same on their Denon and also to compare to Arcam or others? It's tricky though because it can take a while for me to settle into the sound before I pick-up on the edginess.



Hi Tim,


Let me preface and say that I am particularly sensitive to sibilance and that electronic grain or etch so I'm not the best benchmark. Many of my friends have heard my setup at times when I thought it was an issue and they did not hear it or did not bother them the least, even when listening for it. At one point, I was listening to Tristan Prettyman's first album which turned out to be recorded very sibilant, but at that time I didn't realize it was the recording and it was driving me a little crazy. I started hearing the sibilance on other recordings, probably because I was listening for it. After hearing the same songs in many different setups, I realized it was the recording  You have much more experience with auditioning different components, but I can relate to what you are going through. At one point, when my system was settled with the Classe, I went back and revisited some speakers I had dismissed to see how they sounded because I kept wondering how they would fare with better electronics.


I went through a lot of mid level integrated receivers (Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon-I'm not considering your Denon mid level BTW) and all of them, in my experience, had that similar characteristic of an etch/grain/ and slight compression. To different degrees but I could always hear it. Part psychological...maybe but I tried to live with it but it kept bothering me.


At two points, as I was working with separates, I went back to the integrated receivers because I was enjoying the sound paired with my family room setup (lesser speakers) but it showed up each time. This was once with the Onkyo 805 and more recently with the B&K 507S2. The Arcam AVR600 was the only receiver where I didn't hear an etch or grain.


I don't think the Magnolia setup is a very resolving system. For one, they have dozens of components running through switch boxes and they have so many speakers stuffed into those two rooms. No acoustic treatments as well. I think useful to compare components on the fly, but I can attest that speakers sound drastically different from how it sounds in that room. I have heard the Martin Logan Vantages in that room and I currently am borrowing a pair just so I can see how they sound in my home and it is very different.


I have some ideas if you are interested to test out whether what you are hearing is the speaker or not, but I'll just PM since this post is getting a bit long.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18717087
> 
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> 
> Let me preface and say that I am particularly sensitive to sibilance and that electronic grain or etch so I'm not the best benchmark. Many of my friends have heard my setup at times when I thought it was an issue and they did not hear it or did not bother them the least, even when listening for it. At one point, I was listening to Tristan Prettyman's first album which turned out to be recorded very sibilant, but at that time I didn't realize it was the recording and it was driving me a little crazy. I started hearing the sibilance on other recordings, probably because I was listening for it. After hearing the same songs in many different setups, I realized it was the recording  You have much more experience with auditioning different components, but I can relate to what you are going through. At one point, when my system was settled with the Classe, I went back and revisited some speakers I had dismissed to see how they sounded because I kept wondering how they would fare with better electronics.
> 
> 
> I went through a lot of mid level integrated receivers (Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon-I'm not considering your Denon mid level BTW) and all of them, in my experience, had that similar characteristic of an etch/grain/ and slight compression. To different degrees but I could always hear it. Part psychological...maybe but I tried to live with it but it kept bothering me.
> 
> 
> At two points, as I was working with separates, I went back to the integrated receivers because I was enjoying the sound paired with my family room setup (lesser speakers) but it showed up each time. This was once with the Onkyo 805 and more recently with the B&K 507S2. The Arcam AVR600 was the only receiver where I didn't hear an etch or grain.
> 
> 
> I don't think the Magnolia setup is a very resolving system. For one, they have dozens of components running through switch boxes and they have so many speakers stuffed into those two rooms. No acoustic treatments as well. I think useful to compare components on the fly, but I can attest that speakers sound drastically different from how it sounds in that room. I have heard the Martin Logan Vantages in that room and I currently am borrowing a pair just so I can see how they sound in my home and it is very different.
> 
> 
> I have some ideas if you are interested to test out whether what you are hearing is the speaker or not, but I'll just PM since this post is getting a bit long.



Chjo100 -


You may not be the best benchmark for those that don't hear etch / grain / sibilance, but for me you couldn't be a better fit.







In fact, you don't know how much better I feel just to have someone that I can relate to. Because like you, when I try to point it out to others, they just don't hear it.


Going back a bit, my peeve with my first good quality system was with sibilance. Used to drive me nuts. I too later found out that some of what I was hearing was in the recording, but it was being made worse by sibilance in the system too.


Now, sibilance has taken a back seat to grain / etch. But luckily I have been wise enough to have collected several reference tracks that ride that fine line. They show grain on systems that are prone to it, but the problem will fade into the background when the system sounds right. The problem I'm having currently is much more wide spread than that. I'm hearing the grain in recordings that I never did before.


Out of curiosty, what did you find when you paired the "speaker rejects" with the Classe?


Say, do you want to come over and listen to my Denon + Dynaudio to see if you hear what I hear?


Yes, please send me your ideas on troubleshooting this problem.


----------



## vantagesc

Tim, how about you name a few tracks that are exemplary of the problem? Maybe one or two that ride the fine line, and one or two that are really egregious. We had previously discussed that Christina Aguilera song (don't hate, belongs to Tim's wife), but on my system / ears, it was simply there but not harsh.


Not that this will help you necessarily, but I'm interested in where in certain recordings the grain is originating.


BTW, one thing that has stopped me from ordering that passive pre-amp is 1) not sure if it will really improve anything and 2) no remote control for volume.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18717330
> 
> 
> Tim, how about you name a few tracks that are exemplary of the problem? Maybe one or two that ride the fine line, and one or two that are really egregious. We had previously discussed that Christina Aguilera song (don't hate, belongs to Tim's wife), but on my system / ears, it was simply there but not harsh.
> 
> 
> Not that this will help you necessarily, but I'm interested in where in certain recordings the grain is originating.
> 
> 
> BTW, one thing that has stopped me from ordering that passive pre-amp is 1) not sure if it will really improve anything and 2) no remote control for volume.



Just to be clear, what I'm hearing currently is not harsh. It just sounds unnatural and distracting.


I'll put the track list together shortly.


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18716783
> 
> 
> Yes, I hear the problem with all sources (cable, blu ray, and music), but it is the worst with music coming out of the mac. I starting picking up on some added brightness from the Mac over the weekend, which seems to emphasize the problem.
> 
> 
> The odd thing is, if you remember, I just went to Magnolia AV and listened to the Denon vs the Arcam and found that they sounded remarkably similar and I don't recall either of them sounding like what I have going on at home. Of course this was through different and less expensive speakers than what I have at home, so I wonder if some of this being that the B&Ws and Dyns are both more revealing of problems up stream. Kinda like watching SD on an HDTV. Play an SD signal through an SD TV and things look acceptable, but play SD on an HD set and it looks like garbage. That sort of thing.
> 
> 
> Back on your comment about the Arcam for a moment. Are you saying that you hear the problem I describe too? Sometimes I wonder if it is just me. But then I think back to what I had with the WB / Classe, and this was not an issue.
> 
> 
> Its just so hard to pinpoint the problem. Is it the recording, the amp, the preamp, the DAC, the speakers, the room, my hearing? I dumped the B&Ws thinking it was the speakers, and now it seems that there is a good chance the B&Ws were fine.
> 
> 
> Maybe I should bring my Dyns to Magnolia to see if they sound the same on their Denon and also to compare to Arcam or others? It's tricky though because it can take a while for me to settle into the sound before I pick-up on the edginess.



Tim- It's been my experience as I upgrade one piece at a time that with each new / different piece I introduce into my system it reveals the next weakest link. I think this becomes more obvious when you mix and match components from different classes (reference, audiohile).


With your Classe / WB system you had a very well match system in terms of all the components are in the same reference class. That Classe SSP-800 is a best in class unit that is really over-engineered to the max. in many areas. The SSP-800 is balanced front to back with a S/N ratio greater than 100db and distortion levels down to .001%THD. It has a best in class DAC, Pre-amp, 64 bit Audio DSP. Just looking at the specifications just blows my mind in terms of refinement.


I personally think what you are hearing is your speakers revealing the weakness in your receiver. And I think your Classe SSP-800 cpabilities are blowing the socks off of your Denon (At least at your level of discretion). I also think one of the main factors is the internal DAC of the SSP-800 as compared to the DAC of the Denon (Among all the other differences). With the Mac Mini digital out (And your Blu-Ray directly into that Classe with it's internal buffer DAC) is a perfect match.


I know this is not your thing (because it adds another link in the system and less is more), but a external best in class DAC would most likely give you the level of refinement you're acustomed to. But the cost of that level of refinement in a DAC justifies going back to the SSP-800 for a one unit system balanced front to back.


Ed


----------



## hifisponge

Hey Ed -


I have considered all sorts of 2CH options (better DAC, 2CH integrated with HT bypass, tubed amp, etc), but in the end, I listen to as much cable TV and blu ray movies as I do music, and hearing the problems solved for music but not for movies / TV would drive me batty (more than I already am).










But before I plunk down coin for the Classe, I may want to try some of the 2CH solutions to help determine if this is something that would be improved by a better front end.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ERAU23* /forum/post/18717431
> 
> 
> With your Classe / WB system you had a very well match system in terms of all the components are in the same reference class. That Classe SSP-800 is a best in class unit that is really over-engineered to the max. in many areas. The SSP-800 is balanced front to back with a S/N ratio greater than 100db and distortion levels down to .001%THD. It has a best in class DAC, Pre-amp, 64 bit Audio DSP. Just looking at the specifications just blows my mind in terms of refinement.
> 
> ...
> 
> But the cost of that level of refinement in a DAC justifies going back to the SSP-800 for a one unit system balanced front to back.
> 
> 
> Ed



I am not really sure that trying to categorize things into consumer / audiophile / reference grade is really a fruitful exercise for a number of reasons. One of the reasons is that, as a number of you have pointed out, price means very little with respect to ultimate performance.


Some observations:


1. Price tells you very little, as you and others have pointed out. Take the WB speakers Tim used to own. What drove the cost of those speakers? Was it the drivers? Nope. The quality of the crossover parts? Nope.


2. SNR is not a meaningful measurement anymore. The Denon in question also has an SNR of 102db...same as the Classe. My Logitech Transporter has an SNR of 120db, which is pretty much state of the art.


3. 001% distortion of the Classe is nothing special. Denon comes in at .003%...virtually the same. Benchmark makes a 2-channel DAC for about $1k that has distortion of .0003%. Logitech Transporter offers similar numbers. If someone cares to look up which DAC chips the Classe uses, I bet they are used in several other commercial products. Therefore, whatever "magic" the Classe has is not due to the DACs or the low distortion.


4. As you have noted, Tim was using a cheapo Mac product outputting SPDIF over toslink. This puts to bed the theory that you need, as a rule, high end components throughout your system.


5. The interconnects Tim has used and continues to use cost less than a buck per foot.


6. A lot of professional gear is state of the art, yet not all of it is super expensive (relatively speaking).


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18717330
> 
> 
> Tim, how about you name a few tracks that are exemplary of the problem? Maybe one or two that ride the fine line, and one or two that are really egregious. We had previously discussed that Christina Aguilera song (don't hate, belongs to Tim's wife), but on my system / ears, it was simply there but not harsh.
> 
> 
> Not that this will help you necessarily, but I'm interested in where in certain recordings the grain is originating.
> 
> 
> BTW, one thing that has stopped me from ordering that passive pre-amp is 1) not sure if it will really improve anything and 2) no remote control for volume.



I have compiled some sample tracks that exhibit grain / etch in my system. If you are interested in hearing them send me a PM. Some are obviously the fault of the recording, while others you may hear no problem at all if a) your system does not exhibit the problem, b) you are not prone to hearing the problem, c) you don't know what to listen for. Listen for an artificially sharp, slightly buzzy or gritty sound in the upper midrange / lower treble, especially on higher pitched vocals / dynamic vocal passages.


A note to get you pointed the right direction:


The following tracks are sharp / etched sounding regardless of the playback system and are provided as worst-case examples:

Blame it - Jamie Foxx

Beautiful - Christina Aguilera

Please Don't Stop the Music - Rihanna


Once you listen to those, it should bring up your level of awareness for similar traits in the other songs. If the above songs sound fine, then there is little chance that you will hear problems in the rest. Be thankful.


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18717524
> 
> 
> Hey Ed -
> 
> 
> I have considered all sorts of 2CH options (better DAC, 2CH integrated with HT bypass, tubed amp, etc), but in the end, I listen to as much cable TV and blu ray movies as I do music, and hearing the problems solved for music but not for movies / TV would drive me batty (more than I already am).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But before I plunk down coin for the Classe, I may want to try some of the 2CH solutions to help determine if this is something that would be improved by a better front end.



Tim, I don't know if you've ever considered it or not, but i am currently using a Marantz AV8003 Pre Pro that is exceptional(IMHO) in sq factor especially for music and it's got great dynamics in music as well. Though Denon and Marantz are from the same parent company, their sq is significantly different. May i suggest you try it out if you get a chance. It has been highly rated against the Denon's in one of the reviews i read as well.


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18717614
> 
> 
> I am not really sure that trying to categorize things into consumer / audiophile / reference grade is really a fruitful exercise for a number of reasons. One of the reasons is that, as a number of you have pointed out, price means very little with respect to ultimate performance.
> 
> 
> Some observations:
> 
> 
> 1. Price tells you very little, as you and others have pointed out. Take the WB speakers Tim used to own. What drove the cost of those speakers? Was it the drivers? Nope. The quality of the crossover parts? Nope.
> 
> 
> 2. SNR is not a meaningful measurement anymore. The Denon in question also has an SNR of 102db...same as the Classe. My Logitech Transporter has an SNR of 120db, which is pretty much state of the art.
> 
> 
> 3. 001% distortion of the Classe is nothing special. Denon comes in at .003%...virtually the same. Benchmark makes a 2-channel DAC for about $1k that has distortion of .0003%. Logitech Transporter offers similar numbers. If someone cares to look up which DAC chips the Classe uses, I bet they are used in several other commercial products. Therefore, whatever "magic" the Classe has is not due to the DACs or the low distortion.
> 
> 
> 4. As you have noted, Tim was using a cheapo Mac product outputting SPDIF over toslink. This puts to bed the theory that you need, as a rule, high end components throughout your system.
> 
> 
> 5. The interconnects Tim has used and continues to use cost less than a buck per foot.
> 
> 
> 6. A lot of professional gear is state of the art, yet not all of it is super expensive (relatively speaking).



I won't debate your general point because I think we agree in a few areas, but the details matter.

Denon Specifications 


Response to a few of your observations.


1. What made the W/B special and for that matter any other product that is at this level is not the piece parts (The parts themselves cost a few hundred dollars), but the sum of the parts engineered and optimized as a system to high tolerence levels (Reference Companies have to invest in top quality capitial equipment and talent to achieve these tolerence level other companies just license off the shelf technology and mass produce) . What you pay for at this level of refinement is the engineering not the parts. Also you pay for the lack of economies of scale...i.e. low volumes.


2. I could not find the S/N ratio of the Denon 5308 in the link to the specification above. So if you say it's 102 db I will believe you.


3. In the specification for the Denon 5803 that is attached in the link it says THD all sources is 0.05 verus the Classe is 0.001 THD. The Classe is fifty times better than the Denon in this area 10 to the minus 2 verus ten to the minus 3...order of magituide difference). That is a difference you can hear or not hear in this case.


4. Yes the Mac Mini has a SPDIF, but into the Classe DAC with a buffer really smooths and refines the sound to a level that is similiar to the asynchronous USB that is the current rave in DACs today.


5. True and agreed

6. True and agreed


The processor in the Classe is a 64 bit versus 32 bit in Denon. The ADC in the Classe is 36 bit verus 24 bit in the Denon. I could not find the DAC specification for the Classe, but I would guess they are also using a 32 bit verus the 24 bit in the Denon.


I don't really believe specification define sound quality only an indication of refinement. My only point in conveying the specifications was to show the level of refinement between the two units.....reference level components. Not to say anything bad about the Denon, becuase it's a fine unit standing on it's own and within the Denon product line. But the processing power and the level of refinement and engineering is at two different levels. The Classe is an order of magitude better than the Denon in several areas and IMO on the whole.


As I mentioned...these are my opinions.....and not the final word. I'm a newbie to high end audio / video in relative terms. I apply my aerospace engineering and business background to this hobby to gain understanding and enlightment, but practical experience and application is where it matters. I don't own a Classe and chose to purchase the Rotel receiver over the Denon.


Ed


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18717871
> 
> 
> Tim, I don't know if you've ever considered it or not, but i am currently using a Marantz AV8003 Pre Pro that is exceptional(IMHO) in sq factor especially for music and it's got great dynamics in music as well. Though Denon and Marantz are from the same parent company, their sq is significantly different. May i suggest you try it out if you get a chance. It has been highly rated against the Denon's in one of the reviews i read as well.



Yes, I had considered the Marantz at one point, but I figured that the Denon would be in the same ballpark. At the time that I bought the Denon I also wanted the option of buying the Audyssey Pro kit to give me control over the target curve, which the Marantz does not offer. This functionality is less important to me now, if I can get the baseline sound quality where I want it, but hindsight is 20/20 now isn't it?










The other problem is that buying anything other than the Classe at this point is a risk I'm leery to take. I know what the Classe brings to the table, but I am less sure that the Marantz will get me where I want to be. If there were some way to try in my home before I buy, this whole situation would be a lot easier to tackle.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ERAU23* /forum/post/18717943
> 
> 
> 1. What made the W/B special and for that matter any other product that is at this level is not the piece parts (The parts themselves cost a few hundred dollars), but the sum of the parts engineered and optimized as a system to high tolerence levels (Reference Companies have to invest in top quality capitial equipment and talent to achieve these tolerence level other companies just license off the shelf technology and mass produce) . What you pay for at this level of refinement is the engineering not the parts. Also you pay for the lack of economies of scale...i.e. low volumes.



Thanks for the cogent response. To further the discussion, here are some clarifying points, particularly with respect to #1.


1. Often you are paying for aesthetics / brand and the engineering turns out to be similar to other products. There's nothing wrong with that, but sometimes this can come as a sobering realization if you aren't expecting it. I definitely agree with the economies of scale issue. It's just that often times the engineering behind an hi-end product is essentially the same as another product, and sometimes worse. In the most egregious cases, there are many hi-end amps / disc players / etc. that are the SAME as cheaper versions, but in a nicer case with a more prestigious name plate on it.


The WBs are an original design, but if you look at it carefully, you'll see the cost is probably due to low volume and an exotic cabinet. Also note that the drivers are either off the shelf or near off the shelf.


2. One interesting thing about SNR is that it depends on your output level. For example, if you are measuring a pre-amp at 8V output, an SNR of 100db is not as good as one that measures at 2V. So it can be hard to compare manufacturer provided specs.


3. The THD you cite is for the amplifier section of the Denon. The number I cited was for the pre-amp section of the Denon (to compare vs. the SSP-800). I'm sure the Classe specs are indeed much better for amp. So to be fair, we'd have to look at the overall numbers.


4. Tim checked the jitter levels on the unit and they were comparable to other units. Correct me if I'm wrong Tim!


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18717945
> 
> 
> Yes, I had considered the Marantz at one point, but I figured that the Denon would be in the same ballpark. At the time that I bought the Denon I also wanted the option of buying the Audyssey Pro kit to give me control over the target curve, which the Marantz does not offer. This functionality is less important to me now, if I can get the baseline sound quality where I want it, but hindsight is 20/20 now isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The other problem is that buying anything other than the Classe at this point is a risk I'm leery to take. I know what the Classe brings to the table, but I am less sure that the Marantz will get me where I want to be. If there were some way to try in my home before I buy, this whole situation would be a lot easier to tackle.



Oh well.. if you were anywhere in my drivable distance i would have offered to bring over my unit to hear. I don't know how much inclined you would be to even hear the Marantz, but if you are you can probably check with a local dealer for a in home demo maybe.. If you are ever in the new england area and want to pop over for a listen you'll be most welcome at my place










I do have a feeling the Classe would be sonically better than the Marantz and it should be as well considering the price difference. But I have no idea of how quantifiable that difference would be.


----------



## hifisponge

I don't mean to come across as one of those subjectivists that states measurements and specs don't matter, because I'm not. But the deeper I go down the rabbit hole, and the more real-life hands on experiences that I have with the hobby, the more I have become someone that really doesn't care what the specs are (within reason) if it sounds "right". I'm currently of the belief that the measurements readily published either by the manufacturer or an independent source don't tell the whole story and they don't tell enough of the story to form any conclusions based on them.


Lets take the big one for example - frequency response. I've had speakers with ruler flat frequency response that I liked less (Revel, KEF Reference, Aerial Acoustics) than those with wavy response (WB, Vienna Acoustics, Dali). I'm not saying that frequency response is meaningless, but my brain is willing to accept deviations from neutral FR more than it is other speaker distortions. And besides, many times FR irregularities can be addressed after the fact with EQ, whereas tone, texture, imaging, soundstaging cannot.


Sticking with FR for a moment, all modern processors will measure dead flat from 20Hz to roughly 20Khz (and often beyond). Yet, when I listened to Arcam vs Denon in a blind test recently, the Arcam *sounds* like it has a hump through the midrange. Maybe it's some form of distortion in the Arcam that produces the effect of a boosted midrange, but again all modern SS processors are going to measure less than .1 % distortion, which is pretty much considered to be below the threshold of audibility. So what accounts for the difference in sound quality between the Arcam and the Denon then? I don't know, but I would very much like to.


Why does a fresh tomato taste better than one that is days old? Measure them and they will have the same chemical composition. Why does Kobe beef taste better than standard grade grocery store beef? I'm sure that someone could get to the bottom of it, but in the absence of conclusive scientific evidence we have to rely on our senses.


Frankly I thought high-end audio was bullsh*t. Just pretty, expensive boxes with high price tags to make the purchaser feel more prestigious. And some of it is. But some of is made by companies that passionately care about sound quality.


With that said, I agree that there is not necessarily a correlation between price and performance. I've heard and owned high-end gear that I like a lot less than more affordable gear and vice versa.


Anyway, Vantagesc, as for the jitter, I don't know the specs on the Mac Mini, but I would assume it to be fair to poor. However the Classe reclocks and upsamples all digital signals and reduces the jitter to extremely low levels (10 picosecs for coax/toslink and 20 picosecs for HDMI). Some of the lowest in the industry, and better than some companies dedicated to digital components. What that means in regards to sound quality, I can't say for sure, but lower jitter supposedly improves resolution / clarity. The fact that they wen't to the trouble of achieving such low levels of jitter at the very least shows that they are not the type of manufacturer to rebadge other tech and not the type that produces tech inferior to mass market brands. It also shows that they care.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18718495
> 
> 
> Oh well.. if you were anywhere in my drivable distance i would have offered to bring over my unit to hear. I don't know how much inclined you would be to even hear the Marantz, but if you are you can probably check with a local dealer for a in home demo maybe.. If you are ever in the new england area and want to pop over for a listen you'll be most welcome at my place
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do have a feeling the Classe would be sonically better than the Marantz and it should be as well considering the price difference. But I have no idea of how quantifiable that difference would be.



Thank you for the generous offer! It has been a pleasure exchanging thoughts with you and if I ever am in your area, I'll definitely look you up. Likewise, if you are ever in the Seattle area, you can stop in to listen to my screechy sound system.










As we all know, audio memory is miserably short, but based on my memory, the one piece of gear that came close to the smoothness of the Classe was the NAD Master Series, though I don't think it had the resolution of the Classe. I might have to look into that and the Marantz as possible lower cost solutions.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18718495
> 
> 
> Oh well.. if you were anywhere in my drivable distance i would have offered to bring over my unit to hear. I don't know how much inclined you would be to even hear the Marantz, but if you are you can probably check with a local dealer for a in home demo maybe.. If you are ever in the new england area and want to pop over for a listen you'll be most welcome at my place
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do have a feeling the Classe would be sonically better than the Marantz and it should be as well considering the price difference. But I have no idea of how quantifiable that difference would be.



I have the Marantz AV8003 before I got the Classe and have the Marantz again now. As much as I like the Marantz I have to say, I thought the Arcam was a step up from the Marantz and the Classe a step up from the Marantz. The biggest difference for me was that the Classe maintained the smoothness of the Marantz but shaved off just some of the warmness for increased resolution without sounding too lean or analytical. However, for me, in the end I went with a 2 channel dac + preamp and the Marantz (but this is work in process).


I am planning to bring over the Marantz and some otheris goodies over to Tim's since Tim has graciously given me an invite to listen to the Dyn's sometime. PM coming Tim for what I am thinking.


----------



## hifisponge

I just wanted to thank everyone that has frequented my little thread for all of the support and interest in helping me achieve a better sounding system. I was reluctant to post that I was still hearing the same issues with my system after rather boldly thinking that soft dome tweeters would be the answer.


It's a tricky hobby, and despite all of my experiences, it is hard to get them to line up into something that I can reliably use to predict future outcomes. I've heard speakers that sound sweet and smooth with an average AVR and others that sound sibilant and harsh with much more expensive front-end gear, I've also heard speakers change from harsh to pleasant with different components. Some people say the amp makes the biggest difference, while others say it is the CD player or the preamp, yet others believe none of these things matter-- it's all about the speakers and the room. And the truth is, I've experienced some of all of these things at one point or another.


So the lesson learned is that everything has to be taken on it's own merit right? But how do we as appreciators of audio determine what needs changing or which piece will best suit their needs / wants? Dealers willing to allow in-home auditions are drying up, and how do you narrow the choices down if everything reacts with other components in unpredictable ways? Even if your dealer is willing to let you take gear home, he's likely to tire of this if you want to try everything in various combinations looking for the best "synergy".


Well, it's late and I should turn in.


Cheers!


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18718535
> 
> 
> Thank you for the generous offer! It has been a pleasure exchanging thoughts with you and if I ever am in your area, I'll definitely look you up. Likewise, if you are ever in the Seattle area, you can stop in to listen to my screechy sound system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As we all know, audio memory is miserably short, but based on my memory, the one piece of gear that came close to the smoothness of the Classe was the NAD Master Series, though I don't think it had the resolution of the Classe. I might have to look into that and the Marantz as possible lower cost solutions.



I surely will Tim, thanks for the offer! It's been fascinating following your thread and i really hope you can sort this out soon and get back to enjoying your marvelous system!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18718811
> 
> 
> I have the Marantz AV8003 before I got the Classe and have the Marantz again now. As much as I like the Marantz I have to say, I thought the Arcam was a step up from the Marantz and the Classe a step up from the Marantz. The biggest difference for me was that the Classe maintained the smoothness of the Marantz but shaved off just some of the warmness for increased resolution without sounding too lean or analytical. However, for me, in the end I went with a 2 channel dac + preamp and the Marantz (but this is work in process).
> 
> 
> I am planning to bring over the Marantz and some otheris goodies over to Tim's since Tim has graciously given me an invite to listen to the Dyn's sometime. PM coming Tim for what I am thinking.



Aha! It's great to hear it from someone who has actually heard the 2 units. I will look fwd to your and Tim's impressions if you do end up taking the Marantz over to his place and running it with his setup.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18718520
> 
> 
> With that said, I agree that there is not necessarily a correlation between price and performance. I've heard and owned high-end gear that I like a lot less than more affordable gear and vice versa.
> 
> 
> Anyway, Vantagesc, as for the jitter, I don't know the specs on the Mac Mini, but I would assume it to be fair to poor. However the Classe reclocks and upsamples all digital signals and reduces the jitter to extremely low levels (10 picosecs for coax/toslink and 20 picosecs for HDMI). Some of the lowest in the industry, and better than some companies dedicated to digital components. What that means in regards to sound quality, I can't say for sure, but lower jitter supposedly improves resolution / clarity. The fact that they wen't to the trouble of achieving such low levels of jitter at the very least shows that they are not the type of manufacturer to rebadge other tech and not the type that produces tech inferior to mass market brands. It also shows that they care.



Yep, it's good technology alright, but then again, what are the jitter levels of the $400 DAC magic? Fairly close! Unfortunately, we are talking 2-channel gear once again.


BTW, I would look into some custom install stuff too:
http://www.ada.net/products/ht/cinem...sody_mach4.php


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18720200
> 
> 
> Yep, it's good technology alright, but then again, what are the jitter levels of the $400 DAC magic? Fairly close! Unfortunately, we are talking 2-channel gear once again.
> 
> 
> BTW, I would look into some custom install stuff too:
> http://www.ada.net/products/ht/cinem...sody_mach4.php



Yes, I'm sure that performance close to the Classe could be had for a lot less in the 2Ch world. The extruded aluminum case, brand name and limited production of the Classe all add to the cost too.


Not to start a pissing match, but the lowest tested level of jitter I was able to find on the DacMagic was 128 Picosecs, which is ~12 times higher than the Classe. I have read that anything below 750 picosecs is great, so the difference between 128 ps and 10 ps may be meaningless.


Again, I really don't care as long as it sounds good. And if I can find a lower cost solution than Classe to get me the sound I'm after I'm open to it.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18720200
> 
> 
> Yep, it's good technology alright, but then again, what are the jitter levels of the $400 DAC magic? Fairly close! Unfortunately, we are talking 2-channel gear once again.
> 
> 
> BTW, I would look into some custom install stuff too:
> http://www.ada.net/products/ht/cinem...sody_mach4.php



I really wanted to hear a ADA but was told there was no Washington State dealer. i contacted a few out of state dealers but got no response so gave up on trying to get a listen, but I hear great things about the ht capability of these units.


Have you heard them Vantagesc? And what are your thoughts on it. I keep being told it's great for HT but not for music, which I'm not sure how to reconcile the two (actually I hear this once in awhile about Anthem D2 but I have never heard the Anthem for music).


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18720637
> 
> 
> I really wanted to hear a ADA but was told there was no Washington State dealer. i contacted a few out of state dealers but got no response so gave up on trying to get a listen, but I hear great things about the ht capability of these units.
> 
> 
> Have you heard them Vantagesc? And what are your thoughts on it. I keep being told it's great for HT but not for music, which I'm not sure how to reconcile the two (actually I hear this once in awhile about Anthem D2 but I have never heard the Anthem for music).



I can't speak to the ADA gear, but I owned the Anthem D2 for a while, and it sounded no better than the Denon it replaced at the time. If anything, to these ears it sounded brighter and more etched than the Denon.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18719653
> 
> 
> I surely will Tim, thanks for the offer! It's been fascinating following your thread and i really hope you can sort this out soon and get back to enjoying your marvelous system!
> 
> 
> 
> Aha! It's great to hear it from someone who has actually heard the 2 units. I will look fwd to your and Tim's impressions if you do end up taking the Marantz over to his place and running it with his setup.



I think I will be bringing the Marantz over along with some other pre/pro's and a dac/preamplifier. it should make for an educational experience. I will let you know what I hear.


----------



## chjo100

Hi Tim,


You asked what I thought of the speaker rejects that I reintroduced after the Classe. You know, it definitely was an improvement but the same issues that bothered me before, was there. To be more specific one speaker I was really curious about hearing again was the Def Tech Mythos ST. A speaker I was generally happy with and lived with for awhile. There were a few issues I had, but one in particular was a unnatural quality to the sound. I've heard it described as glassy, and I would concur. Back then I was using it with an Integra 9.9 prepro with a W4S amplifier and I attributed a lot to the electronics. When I got the Classe I wondered if perhaps the sound from my current speakers (eficion f300) and the Mythos ST would be much closer now that I upgraded the associated electronics. What I found was that unnatural quality largely remained, but the sound definitely had improved resolution and the noise floor was definitely lower. I didn't feel the Classe made the problem worse. I also happened to have the Onkyo 886 at the time which is an integra clone so i got to compare the two. I did use Audyssey though on the Onkyo, but the Classe definitely sounded less congested. It was an interesting comparison for sure.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18720632
> 
> 
> Not to start a pissing match, but the lowest tested level of jitter I was able to find on the DacMagic was 128 Picosecs, which is ~12 times higher than the Classe. I have read that anything below 750 picosecs is great, so the difference between 128 ps and 10 ps may be meaningless.



In this post, you state that the jitter level of the DAC Magic is 40ps:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2287 


and here:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/17504717
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Jitter with SPDIF input:
> *10ps Classe SSP800*
> 
> 15ps DCS Scarlatti
> 
> 37ps Pioneer SC-LX81
> 
> 40ps Cambridge DACMagic
> 
> 50ps Arcam AVR600
> 
> ...
> 
> 560ps Denon 3808A



Pretty cool for $400 I say!


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18720637
> 
> 
> Have you heard them Vantagesc?



No I have not, so I'm also curious. In another section of this forum, people are saying that it sounds way better than the top of the line Denon (AVP-A1).


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18721409
> 
> 
> In this post, you state that the jitter level of the DAC Magic is 40ps:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2287
> 
> 
> and here:
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty cool for $400 I say!



Ahh snap! You proved me wrong with a quote from myself! Damn you lawyer types!










Well in this case, Cambridge better get to work on an afforable prepro so I don't have to drop the large $$ on the Classe.


----------



## vantagesc

Cambridge seems to make some very solid gear for the price. Sort of like a British version of Rotel.


I notice they have a receiver. Still, would take a big leap of faith to buy this thing. Reliability for receivers is always an issue.
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summar...+HDMI+1.3+AVR+


----------



## CorboDuze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18718520
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that frequency response is meaningless, but my brain is willing to accept deviations from neutral FR more than it is other speaker distortions. And besides, many times FR irregularities can be addressed after the fact with EQ, whereas tone, texture, imaging, soundstaging cannot.
> 
> 
> Sticking with FR for a moment, all modern processors will measure dead flat from 20Hz to roughly 20Khz (and often beyond). Yet, when I listened to Arcam vs Denon in a blind test recently, the Arcam *sounds* like it has a hump through the midrange. Maybe it's some form of distortion in the Arcam that produces the effect of a boosted midrange, but again all modern SS processors are going to measure less than .1 % distortion, which is pretty much considered to be below the threshold of audibility. So what accounts for the difference in sound quality between the Arcam and the Denon then? I don't know, but I would very much like to.



Since you have worked on all the other parameters... Have you thought about having your ears checked?


Who knows, maybe there are certain frequencies you hear better or worse than others.


Cheers,



PS. High-fidelity is like sex, something to enjoy it while you are young.

There is no point saving it for old age.


----------



## Sunya




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18717782
> 
> 
> I have compiled some sample tracks that exhibit grain / etch in my system. If you are interested in hearing them send me a PM. Some are obviously the fault of the recording, while others you may hear no problem at all if a) your system does not exhibit the problem, b) you are not prone to hearing the problem, c) you don't know what to listen for. Listen for an artificially sharp, slightly buzzy or gritty sound in the upper midrange / lower treble, especially on higher pitched vocals / dynamic vocal passages.
> 
> 
> A note to get you pointed the right direction:
> 
> 
> The following tracks are sharp / etched sounding regardless of the playback system and are provided as worst-case examples:
> 
> Blame it - Jamie Foxx
> 
> Beautiful - Christina Aguilera
> 
> Please Don't Stop the Music - Rihanna
> 
> 
> Once you listen to those, it should bring up your level of awareness for similar traits in the other songs. If the above songs sound fine, then there is little chance that you will hear problems in the rest. Be thankful.



Sponge, I really don't think you would want those tracks to sound good on your system. I checked the Christina Aguilera and Rihanna tracks with an audio editor and they are compressed like no tomorrow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war 





&fs=1" width="644" height="390">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&fs=1" />[*ATTN POSTER: YouTube Insert Error:* Something went wrong. Please make sure you added the video correctly. Click here to see how YouTube videos should be embedded. There could also be a technical issue that's not your fault. Click PG9iamVjdCB3aWR0aD0iNDgwIiBoZWlnaHQ9IjM4NSI+PHBhcmFtIG5hbWU9Im1vdmllIiB2YWx1ZT0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy55b3V0dWJlLmNvbS92LzNHbWV4XzRocmVRJmFtcDtobD1lbl9VUyZhbXA7ZnM9MSZhbXA7Ij48L3BhcmFtPjxwYXJhbSBuYW1lPSJhbGxvd0Z1bGxTY3JlZW4iIHZhbHVlPSJ0cnVlIj48L3BhcmFtPjxwYXJhbSBuYW1lPSJhbGxvd3NjcmlwdGFjY2VzcyIgdmFsdWU9ImFsd2F5cyI+PC9wYXJhbT48ZW1iZWQgc3JjPSJodHRwOi8vd3d3LnlvdXR1YmUuY29tL3YvM0dtZXhfNGhyZVEmYW1wO2hsPWVuX1VTJmFtcDtmcz0xJmFtcDsiIHR5cGU9ImFwcGxpY2F0aW9uL3gtc2hvY2t3YXZlLWZsYXNoIiBhbGxvd3NjcmlwdGFjY2Vzcz0iYWx3YXlzIiBhbGxvd2Z1bGxzY3JlZW49InRydWUiIHdpZHRoPSI0ODAiIGhlaWdodD0iMzg1Ij48L2VtYmVkPjwvb2JqZWN0Pg==" target="_blank">here to view the video on YouTube's site. If this link doesn't work, you did something wrong.]


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/18722125
> 
> 
> Since you have worked on all the other parameters... Have you thought about having your ears checked?
> 
> 
> Who knows, maybe there are certain frequencies you hear better or worse than others.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> 
> PS. High-fidelity is like sex, something to enjoy it while you are young.
> 
> There is no point saving it for old age.



Just had that done recently as a matter of fact. I have some hearing loss around 4KHz, which can make it a bit hard to make out similar sounding words when people are speaking, but to the best of my knowledge, this doesn't have the effect of making sounds sharp or etched.


I also have mild tinnitus (ringing), which is a real joy when it flares up, but this is intermitent.


But even if these hearing imparments were to be the source of the problems I'm currently hearing with my system, my reference for sound is and always has been reality. For the most part, I don't hear the problems I do with my sound system in real life. That statement is conditional because once my sensitivity to a distortion is raised, I do start to hear it in places that I normally wouldn't. However, once I get things in check with my sound system, my sensitivty lowers again. (I've been through this a few times.







)


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sunya* /forum/post/18722335
> 
> 
> Sponge, I really don't think you would want those tracks to sound good on your system. I checked the Christina Aguilera and Rihanna tracks with an audio editor and they are compressed like no tomorrow.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war



Interesting. I've known about the loudness wars for a while now, but I thought it was mainly rock that was guilty of over-compressing the sound. But now that you bring it up, I can see how compression of the human voice would make it sound unnatural.


But those two tracks were worst-case examples that show the problem regardless of the system. But I still believe that a system can add to the problem. Like taking sand paper to an open wound. What I'm finding is that this granular quality is pervasive throughout much of my music collection now, though on a lower scale than what is present on the Christina A and Rihanna tracks.


----------



## Sunya

I'm sure the Denon doesn't match the Classe level of refinement but at the same time you can't always blame the equipment for showing you how crappy a recording is. Recently I've had this issue with the Rodrigo y Gabriela albums, talk about shi**y mastering.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sunya* /forum/post/18722423
> 
> 
> I'm sure the Denon doesn't match the Classe level of refinement but at the same time you can't always blame the equipment for showing you how crappy a recording is. Recently I've had this issue with the Rodrigo y Gabriela albums, talk about shi**y mastering.



My prior system was always listenable. I could still easily tell the good recordings from the bad, but it never crossed the line into harshness or fatigue. I know that there are going to be some stinkers out there, but the problem I'm hearing is too pervasive throughout my music collection to purely be a recording quality issue.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sunya* /forum/post/18722423
> 
> 
> I'm sure the Denon doesn't match the Classe level of refinement but at the same time you can't always blame the equipment for showing you how crappy a recording is. Recently I've had this issue with the Rodrigo y Gabriela albums, talk about shi**y mastering.



You know I've never thought Rodrigo y Gabriela as mastered poorly. It sounds rather phenomenal to me with good dynamics and plenty of resolution. However I don't play guitar nor do I know much about what the original source should sound like. I will get to find out though since they are coming in August to Washington and I have tickets







What leads you to believe it was mastered poorly?


----------



## mpmct

if you don't already own a similar pair, you could drop $70 on, for example

these, which measure dead-flat ( designed for pro audio geeks ):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...H7R89TN4XSCJQG 


Plug them into an iPod/iTouch/iPhone ( which also measure almost entirely distortion free,

way more so than a Classe or any other power amp ):

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/foster/index.htm 


.. and listen for sibilance and that other bad stuff.


At least you'll have a reference-grade system for very short money

that: removes speaker/room interaction, avoids hi-end small-shop vagaries

and/or weak implementations, and most importantly

leaves passive loudspeaker x-over distortion out of the equation.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mpmct* /forum/post/18722674
> 
> 
> if you don't already own a similar pair, you could drop $70 on, for example
> 
> these, which measure dead-flat ( designed for pro audio geeks ):
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...H7R89TN4XSCJQG
> 
> 
> Plug them into an iPod/iTouch/iPhone ( which also measure almost entirely distortion free,
> 
> way more so than a Classe or any other power amp ):
> 
> http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/foster/index.htm
> 
> 
> .. and listen for sibilance and that other bad stuff.
> 
> 
> At least you'll have a reference-grade system for very short money
> 
> that: removes speaker/room interaction, avoids hi-end small-shop vagaries
> 
> and/or weak implementations, and most importantly
> 
> leaves passive loudspeaker x-over distortion out of the equation.



I've flirted with this idea before, but I think it is a good time to pony up for this mini reference system. Don't suppose you have any recommendations for over the ear phones? If the in-ear Shures are the best way to go, I'll do it, but I prefer over the ear.


----------



## Sunya




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18722511
> 
> 
> You know I've never thought Rodrigo y Gabriela as mastered poorly. It sounds rather phenomenal to me with good dynamics and plenty of resolution. However I don't play guitar nor do I know much about what the original source should sound like. I will get to find out though since they are coming in August to Washington and I have tickets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What leads you to believe it was mastered poorly?



Well on my system they sound like crap, no dynamics, no definition, poor instrument placing. But listen to some Paco de Lucia or Michel Camilo and you can clearly see the difference in sound quality. For some time now I've got the habit of checking the CDs with an audio editor to see the level of compression. Bellow are some samples from 11:11:


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sunya* /forum/post/18722778
> 
> 
> Well on my system they sound like crap, no dynamics, no definition, poor instrument placing. But listen to some Paco de Lucia or Michel Camilo and you can clearly see the difference in sound quality. For some time now I've got the habit of checking the CDs with an audio editor to see the level of compression. Bellow are some samples from 11:11:




I'll check both Paco de Lucia or Michel Camilo out. I'll take your word for it. I'm not quite sure what the graphs mean but I assume those spikes indicate compression.


----------



## Sunya




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18723270
> 
> 
> I'll check both Paco de Lucia or Michel Camilo out. I'll take your word for it. I'm not quite sure what the graphs mean but I assume those spikes indicate compression.



Those graphs show how loud a recording is; as you can see there are no quiet passages, no dynamic peaks as they've been cut off in order to increase the volume, just a constant stream of loud crap. Look at the video I posted above.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=122114058 

www.turnmeup.org 


Bellow are some Paco de Lucia songs so you notice the difference:


----------



## hifisponge

Yes, Sunya, please explain what it is we are looking at / for on those graphs.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sunya* /forum/post/18723347
> 
> 
> Those graphs show how loud a recording is; as you can see there are no quiet passages, no dynamic peaks as they've been cut off in order to increase the volume, just a constant stream of loud crap. Look at the video I posted above.
> 
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=122114058
> 
> www.turnmeup.org
> 
> 
> Bellow are some Paco de Lucia songs so you notice the difference:



Oh my! I had the colors reversed. Is this true of there first album as well. Maybe I'm better off not knowing so I can continue to enjoy their music


----------



## Sunya




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18723361
> 
> 
> Yes, Sunya, please explain what it is we are looking at / for on those graphs.



Those graphs show the waveform which is a digital representation of the recorded audio. You can manipulate the waveform so that you increase the loudness, but since the maximum amplitude of a digital recording is limited you can make this increase of volume only by cutting the dynamic peaks and what you get in return is constant loudness without much definition.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18720788
> 
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> 
> You asked what I thought of the speaker rejects that I reintroduced after the Classe. You know, it definitely was an improvement but the same issues that bothered me before, was there. To be more specific one speaker I was really curious about hearing again was the Def Tech Mythos ST. A speaker I was generally happy with and lived with for awhile. There were a few issues I had, but one in particular was a unnatural quality to the sound. I've heard it described as glassy, and I would concur. Back then I was using it with an Integra 9.9 prepro with a W4S amplifier and I attributed a lot to the electronics. When I got the Classe I wondered if perhaps the sound from my current speakers (eficion f300) and the Mythos ST would be much closer now that I upgraded the associated electronics. What I found was that unnatural quality largely remained, but the sound definitely had improved resolution and the noise floor was definitely lower. I didn't feel the Classe made the problem worse. I also happened to have the Onkyo 886 at the time which is an integra clone so i got to compare the two. I did use Audyssey though on the Onkyo, but the Classe definitely sounded less congested. It was an interesting comparison for sure.



Thanks for the follow-up. Just goes to show you that the answer isn't the same for all issues, even if they seem very similar. A glassy / metallic quality can be either speaker or front end related.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18723363
> 
> 
> Oh my! I had the colors reversed. Is this true of there first album as well. Maybe I'm better off not knowing so I can continue to enjoy their music



Too funny, I had the colors reversed too. Those Rodrigo y Gabriela recordings are so compressed that I thought the white bits were the signal!


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18714536
> 
> 
> Well guys, I'm slowly coming to realize that I was probably overly optimistic in thinking that I could achieve the sound quality I had with the Classe / WB system on a budget. I've been through a few high quality speakers in the past few months and I'm hearing the same unnaturally etched, electronic sound quality from all of them. At first I thought the edgy quality was because the previous speakers used hard dome tweets, but now that I hear something similar in the Dyns, it seems that I didn't give enough credit to the Classe for the smooth, natural sound quality I had before the change.
> 
> 
> The Dyns supposedly need time to break-in, so I will give them more time, but I am preparing myself to have to go back to a better front end.



Tim, have you found the optimal speaker position/placement for the C1s? Check it out and redo it all over again. This is critical to get the proper balance. Also (depending on the room) most setups have very little toe-ins. Trying out chjo100's different high end equipments would hopefully find the solution to your dilemma. Looking forward to your endeavor.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/18726012
> 
> 
> Tim, have you found the optimal speaker position/placement for the C1s? Check it out and redo it all over again. This is critical to get the proper balance. Also (depending on the room) most setups have very little toe-ins. Trying out chjo100's different high end equipments would hopefully find the solution to your dilemma. Looking forward to your endeavor.



I have played with placement as much as I can (options are limited in my room) and remember, my room has been treated by a professional acoustician. With that said, one of the things that I also do when troubleshooting is to listen to the speakers at a close distance (nearfield) to take the room out of the equation as much as possible. This way I'm listening to the direct sound of the speaker. The balance of the sound changes in this test, but the distortion I hear remains.


Wish me luck this Saturday.


----------



## mpmct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18722749
> 
> 
> I've flirted with this idea before, but I think it is a good time to pony up for this mini reference system. Don't suppose you have any recommendations for over the ear phones? If the in-ear Shures are the best way to go, I'll do it, but I prefer over the ear.



My free advice is drop the short money on the Shure in-ears, or

similar. ( Play with over-ear phones for other reasons, most have

a 'voice' of one kind or another. Avoid that game for this pursuit. )

Buy ones that are 'flat', not with gratuitous euphony.

An iDevice will drive them happily, and the iDevices are also

as flat and uncolored as you're going to get, realistically.

Then you have a two-bit reference system that will tell you without

coloration how a particular recording sounds, for better or worse.

You can leave obsessing about electronics and speaker entirely

out of the equation: they are what they are, they are accurate.

I have to say, the Shures I linked to are just deadly 'right', even

though I'm no big fan of long-term listening with in-ears.

But I use them as reference mostly: assuming good recording(s)

they are full-range, smooth as silk, and incredibly revealing of detail --

for the recordings that haven't been mangled somewhere in the process,

which sadly, are way too many. You won't do better with over the ears

for absolute accuracy and purity. It's worth the ~$70 IMHO, assuming

you already own an iDevice of some kind.


Edit: at least you'll have a base-line. The possible downside is that

you'll hate everything you hear after you have time to get the

full scope of the in-ears. But at least you'll have a base-line.

Then, for music, you'll be forced to get yourself some Linkwitz Orions.

( You *knew* that was coming. )


----------



## hifisponge

Fair enough. Then the Shure's it is. I have an iPod Nano. Can I use my MacBook too?


----------



## DrkWhtGuy

Hey Tim,


Since you originally stated your preference for over the ear headphones, I just wanted to write that I really enjoy my Sennheiser HD 600's. After my old headphones croaked I was doing research for some new ones (apartment life) and it seemed that this model seemed to have a following. They are relatively inexpensive--about $320 at Amazon--and do not need a headphone amp to sound good although, of course, a better source definitely makes a difference. I am listening to them right now while writing to you on my iMac.


From a Cnet review about its use with an iPod:

"Since the HD 600s aren't nearly as efficient as most earbuds, you won't get ear-splitting levels of volume out of them with a portable music player, such as an iPod. However, listening to music at such levels can damage your hearing. I typically got a comfortable volume out of my iPod with the HD 600s. However, with some recordings I did crave a little more volume from time to time."


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks for the recommendation DWG. I'll check those out. Good to see another night owl out.


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18726290
> 
> 
> I have played with placement as much as I can (options are limited in my room) and remember, my room has been treated by a professional acoustician. With that said, one of the things that I also do when troubleshooting is to listen to the speakers at a close distance (nearfield) to take the room out of the equation as much as possible. This way I'm listening to the direct sound of the speaker. The balance of the sound changes in this test, but the distortion I hear remains.
> 
> 
> Wish me luck this Saturday.



One other thing, IIRC you're using a PS Audio power plant premiere, if you still do, I would recommend to switch "off" the MW(multi wave) mode and turn "off" the display too. Just my 02 cents to prep it up for your evaluations tomorrow.


IMO, some DAC or Pre would soften or mask out the harsh/distorted sound inherent in the bad recordings for a more pleasant musical presentation overall. I hope the Classe would be the answer.


Good luck!


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/18730420
> 
> 
> One other thing, IIRC you're using a PS Audio power plant premiere, if you still do, I would recommend to switch "off" the MW(multi wave) mode and turn "off" the display too. Just my 02 cents to prep it up for your evaluations tomorrow.
> 
> 
> IMO, some DAC or Pre would soften or mask out the harsh/distorted sound inherent in the bad recordings for a more pleasant musical presentation overall. I hope the Classe would be the answer.
> 
> 
> Good luck!



Hi Vin,


I just wanted to clarify it won't be just my equipment on Saturday (not that I wish it weren't the case







I think we'll have a nice representation of different price class of ht processors. Marantz AV8003, Arcam AVR-600, Denon 5308, and Classe SSP-800. As for the Dac/Pre it will be an Amarra Model 4 (metric halo uln-8 clone). I've had my fair share of dacs to create a Euphonic sound, but I found the Amarra to be a "true to the source" sound, without highlighting any particular part of the music. I use it as a Dac/Pre but it actually is more commonly used by recording studios to record and do the whole mastering process. I'm fairly ambivalent about my own equipment so I'm pretty excited to just hear what each piece presents when compared to one another.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/18730420
> 
> 
> One other thing, IIRC you're using a PS Audio power plant premiere, if you still do, I would recommend to switch "off" the MW(multi wave) mode and turn "off" the display too. Just my 02 cents to prep it up for your evaluations tomorrow.
> 
> 
> IMO, some DAC or Pre would soften or mask out the harsh/distorted sound inherent in the bad recordings for a more pleasant musical presentation overall. I hope the Classe would be the answer.
> 
> 
> Good luck!



My power conditioner is in my rack, and all of the test components are going to be out in the middle of the room to make things easy, so straight into the wall they go.


I'm open to the possibility that I want to soften the signal, but I swear that when I had the Classe the sound was both smoother and more detailed than the other processors I owned.


----------



## vantagesc

If anyone knows where I can borrow an SSP-800 to try out, let me know.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18731500
> 
> 
> If anyone knows where I can borrow an SSP-800 to try out, let me know.



Book a red-eye flight to Redmond and come take a listen at my place tomorrow.










This test with the Classe could go either way though, and I may end up eating my words. I did say not too long ago that I thought soft domes were the answer to my problems and look how that turned out.


----------



## weird 23

I'm very interested to hear your take on the Marantz AV8003, I'm thinking of going to separates and that is one on my list. What amp are you going to be using? Marantz is updating their reciever lines soon and I'm waiting to see if there will be a new AV8004. I still haven't made it to the Monitor Audio dealer to here the PL 100's yet, hopefully soon.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18732540
> 
> 
> I'm very interested to hear your take on the Marantz AV8003, I'm thinking of going to separates and that is one on my list. What amp are you going to be using? Marantz is updating their reciever lines soon and I'm waiting to see if there will be a new AV8004. I still haven't made it to the Monitor Audio dealer to here the PL 100's yet, hopefully soon.



We're using it with a Plinius P10. However I've used it with several other amplifiers before. I can't tell you how it does for music since I use my 2 channel preamp for music purposes, but it does great for HT. AV8004 would be great, perhaps with Dynamic Volume and user adjustments to Audyssey EQ.


----------



## Fanaticalism

Hopefully Tim will take some pics for us!


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18730643
> 
> 
> Hi Vin,
> 
> I just wanted to clarify it won't be just my equipment on Saturday (not that I wish it weren't the case
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think we'll have a nice representation of different price class of ht processors. Marantz AV8003, Arcam AVR-600, Denon 5308, and Classe SSP-800. As for the Dac/Pre it will be an Amarra Model 4 (metric halo uln-8 clone). I've had my fair share of dacs to create a Euphonic sound, but I found the Amarra to be a "true to the source" sound, without highlighting any particular part of the music. I use it as a Dac/Pre but it actually is more commonly used by recording studios to record and do the whole mastering process. I'm fairly ambivalent about my own equipment so I'm pretty excited to just hear what each piece presents when compared to one another.



Exceptional variety of equipments for the event, what a blast!







The Amarra DAC sounds quite interesting, thanks for the insight.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18731227
> 
> 
> My power conditioner is in my rack, and all of the test components are going to be out in the middle of the room to make things easy, so straight into the wall they go.



Would be nice to put it into the mix.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18731227
> 
> 
> I'm open to the possibility that I want to soften the signal, but I swear that when I had the Classe the sound was both smoother and more detailed than the other processors I owned.



The YBA stuff is another example which seems to soften the signal and still gives out tons of details.


----------



## hifisponge












Today a group of very gracious Seattle area AVS members met up at my place to compare an assortment of popular processors, AVRs and Amps connected to a pair of Dynaudio C1's.

*The participants:*Classe SSP-800 processor - Chris G.

Marantz AV8003 processor - Chris J.

Denon AVR5308 - Tim W.

Amarra Model 4 DAC / preamp (a pro audio piece) - Chris J.

Plinius P10 2CH amp - Chris J.


We also had a Arcam AVR600, but didn't have the time to get to it.


This test was to try to find a better match than the Denon to the Dynaudio C1's for 2CH music listening. The issue that I want to address is an etched, edgy, granular sound to the majority of my music. Before I get into the results, I feel it is best to recap what has lead up to this point.


Since parting with my Classe / Wilson Benesch set-up I've been struggling to get a sound that is as smooth and natural as that combo. At the time that I decided to part with that system, it was my intent to scale back on the cost of the gear in my system. In the past I had heard less expensive systems that I very much enjoyed listening to, and I felt that the amount of money I had in my system was disproportional to the time I spent using it.


I had owned several Denon AVRs prior to the Classe / WB system and had always been happy with them, so I blindly bought the flagship Denon AVR5308 as my replacement for the Classe. I didn't expect it to equal the sound quality of the Classe, but I figured it would still be very good.


For speakers, I started with the Canton Ref 9.2's. There was a lot to like about those speakers, but in the end, they sounded a bit too forward, and there was a what I thought was an etched metallic quality to the sound. I figured it was just an incompatibility between me and metal drivers, so I moved on to a set of B&W 805 Diamonds. I had heard some B&W Diamond Signature speakers paired with Classe about a year ago and was really impressed. When I took ownership of the B&W's, things got better, as the B&W's seemed less granular, but there was still a slightly etched / edgy quality to the sound. My first thought was that maybe they were just too revealing of the commercial recordings I mainly listen to, or that maybe hard domes in general just have an etched quality to them. But I wanted to rule out the Denon first.


I went to the local dealer and did a blind test between the Denon AVR5308, the Arcam AVR600, and the Primare AV separates. These components all feed a set of Martin Logan ESL speakers, and I also briefly listened with some Sonus Faber's. I can't say that I heard any sort of bothersome etch or grain in these pairings, and surprisingly, in this blind test I chose the Denon as having the character I preferred over the competitors. Based on this experience I concluded that it was best to part with the B&Ws and try out some speakers with soft dome tweets. It had been my experience in the past that soft domes had a more forgiving sound. And while I might give up some resolution going this direction, I was willing to make this compromise to get a sound that was more pleasing to me.


I have heard several Dynaudio speakers in the past (Sapphire, Special 25, S3.4, and S5.4) and liked what I had heard. The S3.4's had some midrange glare that I didn't care for, but the others all sounded very good to me. Since I'm a fan of stand mounts, my top choice was the Confidence C1. Before taking the plunge, I read every review I could find on the C1's. And not just professional reviews, which are almost always glowing, but I scoured the forums for every possible comment that had been made on them. The general consensus seemed to be that they were one of the best midrange speakers around, the bass was incredible for their size (I agree), and they sounded balanced from top to bottom. The only criticisms seemed to lean towards the C1's being a bit polite or lacking treble extension (I don't agree). Since a natural sounding midrange was my top priority, I was OK giving up some treble extension, and I would rather have a sound that was too polite than one that was aggressive. If anything, the subjective descriptions of these speakers seemed a lot like my Wilson Benesch, which would have been A-OK with me since I liked the WBs and the Dyns are less expensive.


I get the Dyns and I'll be damned if they don't sound just as etched and edgy as the B&W's, and they are also a bit more forward than my preferred balance. So much for soft domes being forgiving. Dyn claims the speakers need 300 hours of break-in. While I have yet to hear much of a change with break-in of my previous speakers, I play along and run this special speaker break-in disc that puts the drivers through all sorts of calisthenics though a combination of pink noise, frequency chirps and sweeps. 24 hours of playing this disc is supposed to equal something like 100 hours of music. I've run that disc for probably 40+ hours, in addition to normal day use for the past week and a half. So I should have the equivalent of about 200 hours on them. If there has been a change in their sound, it isn't where I want it (smoothness).


Wanting to make the Dyns work, I start thinking about different electronics again. I was preparing to pony up the cash for the Classe SSP-800 and matching amp again thinking that this front end was more responsible for the natural smooth sound of the WB / Classe combo than I had given credit. This is where Chris J. and gang come to the rescue. It also just so happens that Chris J. has been quietly struggling with the same grain /etch demons as I.

*Shootout Results:*


Denon AVR5308 = edgy / etched


Denon + Plinius amp = slightly less edgy / etched but not enough to make me forget about it.


Classe + Plinius = somewhere between Denon alone and Denon + Plinius. A step back in the wrong direction IMO. I have to say that I find it hard to believe that the Classe was adding any etch to the signal, rather the results here start to point to the recording / speakers as being the source of the issue.


Marantz + Plinius = smoother, rounder, more listenable and much closer to what I'm after than any of the other combinations. Some felt some detail was lost with the Marantz. I was just so relieved to have the etch / edge below my tolerance threshold that I didn't really notice one way or the other that detail was missing. It certainly didn't sound smoothed over, dark or dull.


Amarra + Plinius = somewhere between Denon + Plinius and Marantz + Plinius. Those that felt Marantz was too soft liked this combo. I liked Marantz better.


While the Marantz was my favorite, and it generally made the sound more pleasing, it still did not match the organic realism that I achieved with Classe + WB. And I don't like the EQ solution in the Marantz so I'm not sure that this is the direction I want to go.


Not sure what to do at this point since it seems that both the Denon and the Dyns are contributing to the "problem". "Problem" is in quotes because I think there is a good chance that much of what I find displeasing is the system just resolving the flaws in many commercial recordings. However, the group did tend to agree that there was something more edgy / fatiguing with the systems tested today than they were used to in their own systems.


Hopefully the rest of the guys will chime in with their own impressions.


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18736542
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today a group of very gracious Seattle area AVS members met up at my place to compare an assortment of popular processors, AVRs and Amps connected to a pair of Dynaudio C1's.
> 
> *The participants:*Classe SSP-800 processor - Chris G.
> 
> Marantz AV8003 processor - Chris J.
> 
> Denon AVR5308 - Tim W.
> 
> Amarra Model 4 DAC / preamp (a pro audio piece) - Chris J.
> 
> Plinius P10 2CH amp - Chris J.
> 
> 
> We also had a Arcam AVR600, but didn't have the time to get to it.
> 
> 
> This test was to try to find a better match than the Denon to the Dynaudio C1's for 2CH music listening. The issue that I want to address is an etched, edgy, granular sound to the majority of my music. Before I get into the results, I feel it is best to recap what has lead up to this point.
> 
> 
> Since parting with my Classe / Wilson Benesch set-up I've been struggling to get a sound that is as smooth and natural as that combo. At the time that I decided to part with that system, it was my intent to scale back on the cost of the gear in my system. In the past I had heard less expensive systems that I very much enjoyed listening to, and I felt that the amount of money I had in my system was disproportional to the time I spent using it.
> 
> 
> I had owned several Denon AVRs prior to the Classe / WB system and had always been happy with them, so I blindly bought the flagship Denon AVR5308 as my replacement for the Classe. I didn't expect it to equal the sound quality of the Classe, but I figured it would still be very good.
> 
> 
> For speakers, I started with the Canton Ref 9.2's. There was a lot to like about those speakers, but in the end, they sounded a bit too forward, and there was a what I thought was an etched metallic quality to the sound. I figured it was just an incompatibility between me and metal drivers, so I moved on to a set of B&W 805 Diamonds. I had heard some B&W Diamond Signature speakers paired with Classe about a year ago and was really impressed. When I took ownership of the B&W's, things got better, as the B&W's seemed less granular, but there was still a slightly etched / edgy quality to the sound. My first thought was that maybe they were just too revealing of the commercial recordings I mainly listen to, or that maybe hard domes in general just have an etched quality to them. But I wanted to rule out the Denon first.
> 
> 
> I went to the local dealer and did a blind test between the Denon AVR5308, the Arcam AVR600, and the Primare AV separates. These components all feed a set of Martin Logan ESL speakers, and I also briefly listened with some Sonus Faber's. I can't say that I heard any sort of bothersome etch or grain in these pairings, and surprisingly, in this blind test I chose the Denon as having the character I preferred over the competitors. Based on this experience I concluded that it was best to part with the B&Ws and try out some speakers with soft dome tweets. It had been my experience in the past that soft domes had a more forgiving sound. And while I might give up some resolution going this direction, I was willing to make this compromise to get a sound that was more pleasing to me.
> 
> 
> I have heard several Dynaudio speakers in the past (Sapphire, Special 25, S3.4, and S5.4) and liked what I had heard. The S3.4's had some midrange glare that I didn't care for, but the others all sounded very good to me. Since I'm a fan of stand mounts, my top choice was the Confidence C1. Before taking the plunge, I read every review I could find on the C1's. And not just professional reviews, which are almost always glowing, but I scoured the forums for every possible comment that had been made on them. The general consensus seemed to be that they were one of the best midrange speakers around, the bass was incredible for their size (I agree), and they sounded balanced from top to bottom. The only criticisms seemed to lean towards the C1's being a bit polite or lacking treble extension (I don't agree). Since a natural sounding midrange was my top priority, I was OK giving up some treble extension, and I would rather have a sound that was too polite than one that was aggressive. If anything, the subjective descriptions of these speakers seemed a lot like my Wilson Benesch, which would have been A-OK with me since I liked the WBs and the Dyns are less expensive.
> 
> 
> I get the Dyns and I'll be damned if they don't sound just as etched and edgy as the B&W's, and they are also a bit more forward than my preferred balance. So much for soft domes being forgiving. Dyn claims the speakers need 300 hours of break-in. While I have yet to hear much of a change with break-in of my previous speakers, I play along and run this special speaker break-in disc that puts the drivers through all sorts of calisthenics though a combination of pink noise, frequency chirps and sweeps. 24 hours of playing this disc is supposed to equal something like 100 hours of music. I've run that disc for probably 40+ hours, in addition to normal day use for the past week and a half. So I should have the equivalent of about 200 hours on them. If there has been a change in their sound, it isn't where I want it (smoothness).
> 
> 
> Wanting to make the Dyns work, I start thinking about different electronics again. I was preparing to pony up the cash for the Classe SSP-800 and matching amp again thinking that this front end was more responsible for the natural smooth sound of the WB / Classe combo than I had given credit. This is where Chris J. and gang come to the rescue. It also just so happens that Chris J. has been quietly struggling with the same grain /etch demons as I.
> 
> *Shootout Results:*
> 
> 
> Denon AVR5308 = edgy / etched
> 
> 
> Denon + Plinius amp = slightly less edgy / etched but not enough to make me forget about it.
> 
> 
> Classe + Plinius = somewhere between Denon alone and Denon + Plinius. A step back in the wrong direction IMO. I have to say that I find it hard to believe that the Classe was adding any etch to the signal, rather the results here start to point to the recording / speakers as being the source of the issue.
> 
> 
> Marantz + Plinius = smoother, rounder, more listenable and much closer to what I'm after than any of the other combinations. Some felt some detail was lost with the Marantz. I was just so relieved to have the etch / edge below my tolerance threshold that I didn't really notice one way or the other that detail was missing. It certainly didn't sound smoothed over, dark or dull.
> 
> 
> Amarra + Plinius = somewhere between Denon + Plinius and Marantz + Plinius. Those that felt Marantz was too soft liked this combo. I liked Marantz better.
> 
> 
> While the Marantz was my favorite, and it generally made the sound more pleasing, it still did not match the organic realism that I achieved with Classe + WB. And I don't like the EQ solution in the Marantz so I'm not sure that this is the direction I want to go.
> 
> 
> Not sure what to do at this point since it seems that both the Denon and the Dyns are contributing to the "problem". "Problem" is in quotes because I think there is a good chance that much of what I find displeasing is the system just resolving the flaws in many commercial recordings. However, the group did tend to agree that there was something slightly more edgy / fatiguing with the systems tested today than they were used to in their own systems.
> 
> 
> Hopefully the rest of the guys will chime in with their own impressions.



Tim was a great host and generously opened up his home to us...thanks Tim. It was a very nice learning experience.


I think Tim's summary covered all the basis of the results of the experiment today. Also let the record show that Tim is not crazy.....we all heard what he describes.


What became apparent to me (although not conclusive...but is anything) is the whole system dynamics and how all the pieces / variables play together. When system building most people start with the speakers and I think this is correct, but I also think you need to have a good idea of what direction you're going with the other components such as pre / proc and amp combo or receiver.


Ideally you what the pieces to complement each other as to not sound too forward or too laid back (unless this is what you like







). We learned today the different combinations really can change (however subtle) the resulting sound.


I really think Tim found that perfect balance with the W/B and Classe (Pre-pro and five channel amp. The question now is how to recreate that sound?










Ed


----------



## chjo100

I was one of the attending members today and I must say it was a lot of fun to get together to listen to music and talk audio. It was a great learning experience for me. Amongst these, I learned Tim’s secret to a happy marriage while maintaining his hobby (he bribes her with cars). I also learned of footwear which looked like you were bare foot but was in actuality a shoe/sock hybrid (they have some that you can jog in-amazing and you will see me wearing a pair next time). And last but not least, even dogs like to sit in the sweet spot.


I always wondered what Tim’s music/ht room looked and sounded like and I can report it is exceptional. Meticulously clean and organized, it looks like it should have some issues. It’s not heavily treated with acoustic treatment but the places Tim decided to use the treatment seemed to have created a very balanced room. It’s not overly lively, but not dead and lifeless. Imaging was quite good and I didn’t hear unwanted smearing or glare. I was very impressed with the room acoustics.


The audition was surprising in many ways. Just for reference, I brought over the Plinius amplifier, the Marantz AV8003, and the Amarra Model 4 dac so please take my comments that favor those components with a big heaping spoonful of salt. However, in my defense I have owned the Classe SSP-800 and Arcam AVR-600 as well, and enjoyed both pieces immensely.


Denon + Dyn C1: The Dynaudio C1 had great bass, and very good imaging. However, the combination seemed very aggressive in its presentation. Normally I am sensitive to etch and sibilance and to a lesser degree to grain (to me a hashy, coarseness in the sound). I did think the “etch” was more pronounced then what I am used to however, I was surprised that the grain bothered me more in this case. There seemed to be a thin layer of coarseness accompanying vocals, that was slightly bothersome. Some also commented on the sharpness of a clarinet in an instrumental piece we heard. I’m not particularly bothered by sharp horn instrument sounds so this was not as offensive to me. I think overall the combination was fatiguing and not one that made me ask to turn it louder.


Denon + Plinius+ C1: Since the Denon has a healthy dose of wattage, I didn’t expect much change, there seemed to be a subtle reduction in the bright or aggressive nature of the above combo. It was still there, but not to the same degree.


Classe + Plinius + C1: I went into this setup almost assuming it was going to be spectacular. It did not meet my expectations. For me, resolution seemed to increase and the soundstage seemed to move back, making it less bright. However, it didn’t seem to improve the issues noted above. At this point, I started to chalk it up to the Dynaudio C1’s, since the Classe didn’t seem to improve things any over the Denon.


Marantz AV8003 + C1: I was very curious to hear this since I use the Marantz strictly for HT. I liked this combination, as the warmth of the Marantz made for a smooth very pleasant sound. I was easy to listen to but I was one that felt it sacrificed some finer details to achieve this warm pleasant sound. For e.g. on one track (remake of Red Hot Chilli Peppers song), I could hear the texture in one of the male vocals, and this seemed t o be slightly glossed over with the Marantz. Bass also seemed to be a little bit shier, but not being one that is much of a bass head, this didn’t take away from my enjoyment. On this combination, I found very little “etch” in the sound that bothered me. I can’t remember if grain was reduced any. I think this was one of those synergy things people often talk about.


Amarra + C1: For me this was my favorite. It seemed to remove the warmth of the Marantz, but didn’t have much grain and etch in the sound and had more resolution. To my ears, this produced a very truthful, smooth sound, but I still found it fatiguing. This was the last component we listened to so it could be literal fatigue since it had been a good four hours of music. However, I still think there was something about the Dynaudio’s that made the sound bright or fatiguing. I couldn’t put my finger on it but the presentation always came off slightly flat and bright and I didn’t like listening to it loud. I couldn’t figure out why because the Dyns seem to do everything well. It had nice bass, seemed to image well, and didn’t seem to accentuate anything. Between the Dyns and the 805di, it made me much more appreciate of what a bookshelf was capable of.


I hope I don’t come off sounding overly negative. I thought the sound near the end was good and one people would enjoy very much, but I think just one that was not my ultimate preference. I do think the recording was the greatest contributor to the grain and etch we heard, but I felt the Dyn , Denon and even the Classe did not help it. However the company was great and it was a lot of fun getting to listen to the Dyn’s and various components.


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks for the honest opinions guys (and no Chris, your account was not too negative). I think this is a compound problem and once we got the grain / etch down to a tolerable level, I agree that there is still something fatiguing about the sound. But I can't put my finger on why either, since the sound of the C1's are generally well balanced from bottom to top. They still sound a bit too forward to me, but not enough that would seem to be the cause.


I did make a small gain, I think, after you guys left. I calibrated Audyssey and engaged the sub for the first time. Both of these things seemed to reduce the etch on some of the tracks we listened to.


I'll live with it like this for a while and report back.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18736542
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today a group of very gracious Seattle area AVS members met up at my place to compare an assortment of popular processors, AVRs and Amps connected to a pair of Dynaudio C1's.
> 
> *The participants:*Classe SSP-800 processor - Chris G.
> 
> Marantz AV8003 processor - Chris J.
> 
> Denon AVR5308 - Tim W.
> 
> Amarra Model 4 DAC / preamp (a pro audio piece) - Chris J.
> 
> Plinius P10 2CH amp - Chris J.
> 
> 
> We also had a Arcam AVR600, but didn't have the time to get to it.
> 
> 
> This test was to try to find a better match than the Denon to the Dynaudio C1's for 2CH music listening. The issue that I want to address is an etched, edgy, granular sound to the majority of my music. Before I get into the results, I feel it is best to recap what has lead up to this point.
> 
> 
> Since parting with my Classe / Wilson Benesch set-up I've been struggling to get a sound that is as smooth and natural as that combo. At the time that I decided to part with that system, it was my intent to scale back on the cost of the gear in my system. In the past I had heard less expensive systems that I very much enjoyed listening to, and I felt that the amount of money I had in my system was disproportional to the time I spent using it.
> 
> 
> I had owned several Denon AVRs prior to the Classe / WB system and had always been happy with them, so I blindly bought the flagship Denon AVR5308 as my replacement for the Classe. I didn't expect it to equal the sound quality of the Classe, but I figured it would still be very good.
> 
> 
> For speakers, I started with the Canton Ref 9.2's. There was a lot to like about those speakers, but in the end, they sounded a bit too forward, and there was a what I thought was an etched metallic quality to the sound. I figured it was just an incompatibility between me and metal drivers, so I moved on to a set of B&W 805 Diamonds. I had heard some B&W Diamond Signature speakers paired with Classe about a year ago and was really impressed. When I took ownership of the B&W's, things got better, as the B&W's seemed less granular, but there was still a slightly etched / edgy quality to the sound. My first thought was that maybe they were just too revealing of the commercial recordings I mainly listen to, or that maybe hard domes in general just have an etched quality to them. But I wanted to rule out the Denon first.
> 
> 
> I went to the local dealer and did a blind test between the Denon AVR5308, the Arcam AVR600, and the Primare AV separates. These components all feed a set of Martin Logan ESL speakers, and I also briefly listened with some Sonus Faber's. I can't say that I heard any sort of bothersome etch or grain in these pairings, and surprisingly, in this blind test I chose the Denon as having the character I preferred over the competitors. Based on this experience I concluded that it was best to part with the B&Ws and try out some speakers with soft dome tweets. It had been my experience in the past that soft domes had a more forgiving sound. And while I might give up some resolution going this direction, I was willing to make this compromise to get a sound that was more pleasing to me.
> 
> 
> I have heard several Dynaudio speakers in the past (Sapphire, Special 25, S3.4, and S5.4) and liked what I had heard. The S3.4's had some midrange glare that I didn't care for, but the others all sounded very good to me. Since I'm a fan of stand mounts, my top choice was the Confidence C1. Before taking the plunge, I read every review I could find on the C1's. And not just professional reviews, which are almost always glowing, but I scoured the forums for every possible comment that had been made on them. The general consensus seemed to be that they were one of the best midrange speakers around, the bass was incredible for their size (I agree), and they sounded balanced from top to bottom. The only criticisms seemed to lean towards the C1's being a bit polite or lacking treble extension (I don't agree). Since a natural sounding midrange was my top priority, I was OK giving up some treble extension, and I would rather have a sound that was too polite than one that was aggressive. If anything, the subjective descriptions of these speakers seemed a lot like my Wilson Benesch, which would have been A-OK with me since I liked the WBs and the Dyns are less expensive.
> 
> 
> I get the Dyns and I'll be damned if they don't sound just as etched and edgy as the B&W's, and they are also a bit more forward than my preferred balance. So much for soft domes being forgiving. Dyn claims the speakers need 300 hours of break-in. While I have yet to hear much of a change with break-in of my previous speakers, I play along and run this special speaker break-in disc that puts the drivers through all sorts of calisthenics though a combination of pink noise, frequency chirps and sweeps. 24 hours of playing this disc is supposed to equal something like 100 hours of music. I've run that disc for probably 40+ hours, in addition to normal day use for the past week and a half. So I should have the equivalent of about 200 hours on them. If there has been a change in their sound, it isn't where I want it (smoothness).
> 
> 
> Wanting to make the Dyns work, I start thinking about different electronics again. I was preparing to pony up the cash for the Classe SSP-800 and matching amp again thinking that this front end was more responsible for the natural smooth sound of the WB / Classe combo than I had given credit. This is where Chris J. and gang come to the rescue. It also just so happens that Chris J. has been quietly struggling with the same grain /etch demons as I.
> 
> *Shootout Results:*
> 
> 
> Denon AVR5308 = edgy / etched
> 
> 
> Denon + Plinius amp = slightly less edgy / etched but not enough to make me forget about it.
> 
> 
> Classe + Plinius = somewhere between Denon alone and Denon + Plinius. A step back in the wrong direction IMO. I have to say that I find it hard to believe that the Classe was adding any etch to the signal, rather the results here start to point to the recording / speakers as being the source of the issue.
> 
> 
> Marantz + Plinius = smoother, rounder, more listenable and much closer to what I'm after than any of the other combinations. Some felt some detail was lost with the Marantz. I was just so relieved to have the etch / edge below my tolerance threshold that I didn't really notice one way or the other that detail was missing. It certainly didn't sound smoothed over, dark or dull.
> 
> 
> Amarra + Plinius = somewhere between Denon + Plinius and Marantz + Plinius. Those that felt Marantz was too soft liked this combo. I liked Marantz better.
> 
> 
> While the Marantz was my favorite, and it generally made the sound more pleasing, it still did not match the organic realism that I achieved with Classe + WB. And I don't like the EQ solution in the Marantz so I'm not sure that this is the direction I want to go.
> 
> 
> Not sure what to do at this point since it seems that both the Denon and the Dyns are contributing to the "problem". "Problem" is in quotes because I think there is a good chance that much of what I find displeasing is the system just resolving the flaws in many commercial recordings. However, the group did tend to agree that there was something more edgy / fatiguing with the systems tested today than they were used to in their own systems.
> 
> 
> Hopefully the rest of the guys will chime in with their own impressions.



What was it about the EQ that you didn't like on the Marantz? What would you like to see changed on the Marantz that would make you consider buying it? I'm hoping that they bring out an 8004 in the fall with Multi EQ XT so that Audessey Pro can be used. The reason I'm looking to upgrade my front end is I don't really like the EQ on my Pioneer Elite SC-07, it uses MCACC devolped by Pioneer themselves. I would like to audition the Anthem recievers and the Marantz processor in the fall. I'm not sure which amp I would use with the Marantz though. Thanks for your insight on the Marantz as I've never heard it before. Is that Kid Rock you guys were listening to?


----------



## 7ryder

I was the other Chris who was in attendance and brought my Classe SSP-800.


Chris J had reached out to me earlier this week about attending and both of us arrived at Tim's house at the same time. Before going in, I told Chris that if the Marantz sounded better than my Classe then I wasn't going to be very happy







, well, as you can tell from above, with Tim's speakers, the Marantz did make a better match and tamed the issues that all of us were hearing.


I don't know that I agree with Tim that using the Classe + Plinius was a step back from the Denon/Plinius combo, I think it slightly improved the sound and presented a different soundstage, but it didn't make the Dyn C1 issues go away.


I couldn't stay for the whole shoot-out, but I did get a chance to hear the Marantz/Plinius combo and I agree with the others, that this was a very listenable combination with the Dyn C1s.


To be candid, I don't think I could live with the Dyn C1s for very long without doing something to tame the "edginess" that we were hearing from the very start. That said, with the Marantz/Plinius driving the speakers, I could start to see why Tim thought these would be a possible WB replacement -- they do have some very nice characteristics once that edginess went away.


Oh well, I am happy to say that once back in my system, the Classe did sound as I remembered it and I'm not going to be going Marantz shopping!


I think the challenge for Tim is that he has changed out the majority of his system so it is hard to say which part of the chain is the weakest link. I had similar "edginess" issues when I started upgrading my system last year, but since I was changing one piece at a time and the edginess didn't reveal itself until I bought an OnkyoPro 885P to replace an Integra Research RDC-7, it was bit easier to eventually decide that no band-aids were going to make the problem go away and I eventually purchased the SSP-800. I might venture to guess that since he has heard this issue with both the B&Ws and the Dynaudios (assuming that Audyssey has been used with both), that perhaps it is a Denon receiver issue....perhaps Ed can bring his 805ds for our next shootout to see how they play with a Classe/Parasound combo.


All in all, it was great fun and great meeting everyone. Hopefully we can get together in July for another listen -- this time at my house.


Cheers!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18736966
> 
> 
> What was it about the EQ that you didn't like on the Marantz? What would you like to see changed on the Marantz that would make you consider buying it? I'm hoping that they bring out an 8004 in the fall with Multi EQ XT so that Audessey Pro can be used. The reason I'm looking to upgrade my front end is I don't really like the EQ on my Pioneer Elite SC-07, it uses MCACC devolped by Pioneer themselves. I would like to audition the Anthem recievers and the Marantz processor in the fall. I'm not sure which amp I would use with the Marantz though. Thanks for your insight on the Marantz as I've never heard it before. Is that Kid Rock you guys were listening to?



Hi W23 -


My issue with the EQ in the Marantz is that is the lower resolution version of Audyssey and as you mentioned, there is no pro version. So it is both less accurate and less flexible than I want.


Yes, that is Kid Rock on the TV, but we weren't listening to him. It was just coincidental video on while we were listening to music.


----------



## adidino




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18736708
> 
> 
> I However the company was great and it was a lot of fun getting to listen to the Dyn's and various components.



Sounds like you guys had fun. Wish I was closer... would've loved to attend.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/18737523
> 
> 
> I was the other Chris who was in attendance and brought my Classe SSP-800.
> 
> 
> Chris J had reached out to me earlier this week about attending and both of us arrived at Tim's house at the same time. Before going in, I told Chris that if the Marantz sounded better than my Classe then I wasn't going to be very happy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , well, as you can tell from above, with Tim's speakers, the Marantz did make a better match and tamed the issues that all of us were hearing.
> 
> 
> I don't know that I agree with Tim that using the Classe + Plinius was a step back from the Denon/Plinius combo, I think it slightly improved the sound and presented a different soundstage, but it didn't make the Dyn C1 issues go away.
> 
> 
> I couldn't stay for the whole shoot-out, but I did get a chance to hear the Marantz/Plinius combo and I agree with the others, that this was a very listenable combination with the Dyn C1s.
> 
> 
> To be candid, I don't think I could live with the Dyn C1s for very long without doing something to tame the "edginess" that we were hearing from the very start. That said, with the Marantz/Plinius driving the speakers, I could start to see why Tim thought these would be a possible WB replacement -- they do have some very nice characteristics once that edginess went away.
> 
> 
> Oh well, I am happy to say that once back in my system, the Classe did sound as I remembered it and I'm not going to be going Marantz shopping!
> 
> 
> I think the challenge for Tim is that he has changed out the majority of his system so it is hard to say which part of the chain is the weakest link. I had similar "edginess" issues when I started upgrading my system last year, but since I was changing one piece at a time and the edginess didn't reveal itself until I bought an OnkyoPro 885P to replace an Integra Research RDC-7, it was bit easier to eventually decide that no band-aids were going to make the problem go away and I eventually purchased the SSP-800. I might venture to guess that since he has heard this issue with both the B&Ws and the Dynaudios (assuming that Audyssey has been used with both), that perhaps it is a Denon receiver issue....perhaps Ed can bring his 805ds for our next shootout to see how they play with a Classe/Parasound combo.
> 
> 
> All in all, it was great fun and great meeting everyone. Hopefully we can get together in July for another listen -- this time at my house.
> 
> 
> Cheers!



Thanks for the candid feedback Chris. Just to be clear, I did feel the Classe brought some improvements to the table over the Denon for sure. The Denon seems to present instruments that are 2 dimensional, while the Classe provided more depth, but as I was very focused on reducing the edgy quality, there just wasn't the level of improvement I wanted in that area.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18737698
> 
> 
> Thanks for the candid feedback Chris. Just to be clear, I did feel the Classe brought some improvements to the table over the Denon for sure. The Denon seems to present instruments that are 2 dimensional, while the Classe provided more depth, but as I was very focused on reducing the edgy quality, there just wasn't the level of improvement I wanted in that area.



I agree, the Classe did not do much to take the edge off!


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18736886
> 
> 
> Thanks for the honest opinions guys (and no Chris, your account was not too negative). I think this is a compound problem and once we got the grain / etch down to a tolerable level, I agree that there is still something fatiguing about the sound. But I can't put my finger on why either, since the sound of the C1's are generally well balanced from bottom to top. They still sound a bit too forward to me, but not enough that would seem to be the cause.
> 
> 
> I did make a small gain, I think, after you guys left. I calibrated Audyssey and engaged the sub for the first time. Both of these things seemed to reduce the etch on some of the tracks we listened to.
> 
> 
> I'll live with it like this for a while and report back.



That would be great if the solution with the Audyssey works out. Please don't post pictures of new speakers before reporting back on your progress with your Audyssey calibration


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/18737523
> 
> 
> 
> Chris J had reached out to me earlier this week about attending and both of us arrived at Tim's house at the same time. Before going in, I told Chris that if the Marantz sounded better than my Classe then I wasn't going to be very happy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , well, as you can tell from above, with Tim's speakers, the Marantz did make a better match and tamed the issues that all of us were hearing.



Chris G neglected to mention he slugged me in the shoulder once the Marantz started playing. Next time I'm wearing a protective shoulder guard.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18738149
> 
> 
> That would be great if the solution with the Audyssey works out. Please don't post pictures of new speakers before reporting back on your progress with your Audyssey calibration



Listening with Audyssey engaged for the past couple of hours, and the edge is still there.


----------



## Tmueller




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18736542
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today a group of very gracious Seattle area AVS members met up at my place to compare an assortment of popular processors, AVRs and Amps connected to a pair of Dynaudio C1's.
> 
> *The participants:*Classe SSP-800 processor - Chris G.
> 
> Marantz AV8003 processor - Chris J.
> 
> Denon AVR5308 - Tim W.
> 
> Amarra Model 4 DAC / preamp (a pro audio piece) - Chris J.
> 
> Plinius P10 2CH amp - Chris J.
> 
> 
> We also had a Arcam AVR600, but didn't have the time to get to it.
> 
> 
> This test was to try to find a better match than the Denon to the Dynaudio C1's for 2CH music listening. The issue that I want to address is an etched, edgy, granular sound to the majority of my music. Before I get into the results, I feel it is best to recap what has lead up to this point.
> 
> 
> Since parting with my Classe / Wilson Benesch set-up I've been struggling to get a sound that is as smooth and natural as that combo. At the time that I decided to part with that system, it was my intent to scale back on the cost of the gear in my system. In the past I had heard less expensive systems that I very much enjoyed listening to, and I felt that the amount of money I had in my system was disproportional to the time I spent using it.
> 
> 
> I had owned several Denon AVRs prior to the Classe / WB system and had always been happy with them, so I blindly bought the flagship Denon AVR5308 as my replacement for the Classe. I didn't expect it to equal the sound quality of the Classe, but I figured it would still be very good.
> 
> 
> For speakers, I started with the Canton Ref 9.2's. There was a lot to like about those speakers, but in the end, they sounded a bit too forward, and there was a what I thought was an etched metallic quality to the sound. I figured it was just an incompatibility between me and metal drivers, so I moved on to a set of B&W 805 Diamonds. I had heard some B&W Diamond Signature speakers paired with Classe about a year ago and was really impressed. When I took ownership of the B&W's, things got better, as the B&W's seemed less granular, but there was still a slightly etched / edgy quality to the sound. My first thought was that maybe they were just too revealing of the commercial recordings I mainly listen to, or that maybe hard domes in general just have an etched quality to them. But I wanted to rule out the Denon first.
> 
> 
> I went to the local dealer and did a blind test between the Denon AVR5308, the Arcam AVR600, and the Primare AV separates. These components all feed a set of Martin Logan ESL speakers, and I also briefly listened with some Sonus Faber's. I can't say that I heard any sort of bothersome etch or grain in these pairings, and surprisingly, in this blind test I chose the Denon as having the character I preferred over the competitors. Based on this experience I concluded that it was best to part with the B&Ws and try out some speakers with soft dome tweets. It had been my experience in the past that soft domes had a more forgiving sound. And while I might give up some resolution going this direction, I was willing to make this compromise to get a sound that was more pleasing to me.
> 
> 
> I have heard several Dynaudio speakers in the past (Sapphire, Special 25, S3.4, and S5.4) and liked what I had heard. The S3.4's had some midrange glare that I didn't care for, but the others all sounded very good to me. Since I'm a fan of stand mounts, my top choice was the Confidence C1. Before taking the plunge, I read every review I could find on the C1's. And not just professional reviews, which are almost always glowing, but I scoured the forums for every possible comment that had been made on them. The general consensus seemed to be that they were one of the best midrange speakers around, the bass was incredible for their size (I agree), and they sounded balanced from top to bottom. The only criticisms seemed to lean towards the C1's being a bit polite or lacking treble extension (I don't agree). Since a natural sounding midrange was my top priority, I was OK giving up some treble extension, and I would rather have a sound that was too polite than one that was aggressive. If anything, the subjective descriptions of these speakers seemed a lot like my Wilson Benesch, which would have been A-OK with me since I liked the WBs and the Dyns are less expensive.
> 
> 
> I get the Dyns and I'll be damned if they don't sound just as etched and edgy as the B&W's, and they are also a bit more forward than my preferred balance. So much for soft domes being forgiving. Dyn claims the speakers need 300 hours of break-in. While I have yet to hear much of a change with break-in of my previous speakers, I play along and run this special speaker break-in disc that puts the drivers through all sorts of calisthenics though a combination of pink noise, frequency chirps and sweeps. 24 hours of playing this disc is supposed to equal something like 100 hours of music. I've run that disc for probably 40+ hours, in addition to normal day use for the past week and a half. So I should have the equivalent of about 200 hours on them. If there has been a change in their sound, it isn't where I want it (smoothness).
> 
> 
> Wanting to make the Dyns work, I start thinking about different electronics again. I was preparing to pony up the cash for the Classe SSP-800 and matching amp again thinking that this front end was more responsible for the natural smooth sound of the WB / Classe combo than I had given credit. This is where Chris J. and gang come to the rescue. It also just so happens that Chris J. has been quietly struggling with the same grain /etch demons as I.
> 
> *Shootout Results:*
> 
> 
> Denon AVR5308 = edgy / etched
> 
> 
> Denon + Plinius amp = slightly less edgy / etched but not enough to make me forget about it.
> 
> 
> Classe + Plinius = somewhere between Denon alone and Denon + Plinius. A step back in the wrong direction IMO. I have to say that I find it hard to believe that the Classe was adding any etch to the signal, rather the results here start to point to the recording / speakers as being the source of the issue.
> 
> 
> Marantz + Plinius = smoother, rounder, more listenable and much closer to what I'm after than any of the other combinations. Some felt some detail was lost with the Marantz. I was just so relieved to have the etch / edge below my tolerance threshold that I didn't really notice one way or the other that detail was missing. It certainly didn't sound smoothed over, dark or dull.
> 
> 
> Amarra + Plinius = somewhere between Denon + Plinius and Marantz + Plinius. Those that felt Marantz was too soft liked this combo. I liked Marantz better.
> 
> 
> While the Marantz was my favorite, and it generally made the sound more pleasing, it still did not match the organic realism that I achieved with Classe + WB. And I don't like the EQ solution in the Marantz so I'm not sure that this is the direction I want to go.
> 
> 
> Not sure what to do at this point since it seems that both the Denon and the Dyns are contributing to the "problem". "Problem" is in quotes because I think there is a good chance that much of what I find displeasing is the system just resolving the flaws in many commercial recordings. However, the group did tend to agree that there was something more edgy / fatiguing with the systems tested today than they were used to in their own systems.
> 
> 
> Hopefully the rest of the guys will chime in with their own impressions.



Tim - It sounds like you are having a lot of fun mixed with some challenges. I would urge you to be patient, as mentioned in the Dynaudio Owner's Thread, until break-in is 100% complete. If the C1 is not the smoothest speaker you have heard after complete break-in than I suggest you get "back to basics" with these couple of points/ideas:


1.) See if your dealer will borrow you a simple integrated amplifier. (My favorite is the Naim Supernait but any high current low distortion design will work.)


Dynaudio loudspeakers are extremely revealing and my personal HT Pre-Pro (Arcam 888) displays very similar issues that you are concerned with. Which is why a basic, relatively inexpensive, integrated amplifier can be a blessing when properly incorporated into a highly resolving HT.


2.) If #1 does not solve your problem start looking at your speaker cables. A good point to start when glare is an issue is with a basic high quality copper cable.


Please let me know if you have any further questions.


Cheers!


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18738316
> 
> 
> Listening with Audyssey engaged for the past couple of hours, and the edge is still there.



Which version of Audyssey does your Denon have? Have you tried Audyssey Pro? If the Marantz included the higher resolution Audyssey would that make you consider it? I took my speakers over to a friends house last week to see how they sounded on his system( Anthem avm50 with ARC and P-5 amplifier) and really liked the ARC. It sounded much better than my Pioneer with MCACC, two channel listening only. That's where I'm not satisfied with the Pioneer, movies it sounds pretty good. Although I would imagine that the Anthem sounds better. The speakers I'm using in this system are the Paradigm Studio 100 v5, which people often compare to the Sig v1.(I've never heard the Sig v1) Right now the Anthem combo is not a reality for me, so I need something lower in price but still sounds great. I live in Canada and the Pioneer recievers never hit the low prices avaible in the US and having one shipped cancels any savings. Sorry to ramble but you have a good grasp on what a system sounds like and are able to articulate what you are hearing. I enjoy reading your thoughts on different gear and you have tried most of the brands I would consider buying. Keep up the good work and hopefully you will find what you are looking for.


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18738316
> 
> 
> Listening with Audyssey engaged for the past couple of hours, and the edge is still there.



As you've mentioned, the WB-Classe pairing was the best overall that you've ever experienced. It would be nice to bring in the full Classe stock just to compare and get a handle on the C1s. The Classe Amps (which is the missing piece in the evaluation done yesterday) would hopefully give us a better picture. IMO every single piece in the chain right down to the cables (Spk wires, ICs, PCs) would matter and interact differently. Be patient Tim, slowly but surely you'll get to where you wanted before you know it.


----------



## hifisponge

Surprised by what I'm hearing from the C1's, I decided to go back over the reviews on the C1's to see if there were any hints at these speakers sounding harsh, aggressive, edgy or anything in this family of issues. I have been in this hobby long enough to know to read between the lines in professional AV component reviews, as far too many of them are positive, but something still seems off here, because the reviews all describe a speaker that has a natural, full bodied midrange, "sweet" treble and excellent bass response.


Below is a collection of the pros and cons regarding the mids and treble of the C1's from all of the reviews (bass is not in question, so these comments have been omitted):

*Pros:*

* No other standmounters we've heard are as authoritative, or have a presentation so solid and full-bodied. Factor in an *insightful midrange*, and *one of the sweetest trebles around*, and you have a very special product indeed.

* Set up with care, they deliver an exceptional sound with no weaknesses. Regular readers will know that's not the kind of statement we make lightly.

* The C1s’ uncluttered, straightforward sound was *not achieved through a hyper-detailed presentation*, though, but rather through a seemingly *honest, well-balanced directness*.

* The C1s really shone in their ability to dig out low-level information, while still keeping all of the details integrated into a musically meaningful whole.

* The C1s had greater and more *refined upper-frequency extension*, which gave them a quicker, more lively sound in general (than the Super Eclipse IIIs’).

* At the end of the day, the C1s proved to be deeply rewarding speakers; they covered the hi-fi areas of detail, imaging, and tonal accuracy exceedingly well, and they always did so in a way that was consistent with music itself. The C1s thrilled me with their strengths -- their musical honesty, balance and integration.

* The *depiction of high frequencies was almost surreal*, so transparently extended is that Esotar tweeter; complex harmonics and overtones came out airy and transparent, yet firmly defined, save that they *weren't etched or edgy, sibilant or shiny*.

* The speakers were *neither forward nor were they bright*, but when the music rose to the occasion they sang crisply and quickly

* An early candidate for Best in Show honors, the Dynaudio C1/Simaudio room pulsed with *warm, smooth, detailed sound*.

* The C1 and vocals? Don't get me started. *This speaker was made to reproduce the human voice*, from the slightest soprano to the buttery thunder of the basses of the male vocal group Cantus. My Quad 57s may finally have a rival for *"best vocal speaker—evah!"*

* However, the *C1 had a top-to-bottom coherence* on the Rautavaara that the Special Twenty-Five just didn't match. This was caused by two distinct effects. First, the Special Twenty-Five is a bit forward in the upper midrange, which can come across as hardness. I'm not convinced that it is hardness, but it can lead to listening fatigue, so I'm not sure the difference is worth the argument.

* The Dynaudio Confidence C1 speakers were as *smooth and evenly balanced* as nearly any commercial speaker I have ever heard. In fact, I can only think of about a dozen speakers I've heard which exhibit *such a smooth, even response*.

* *Midrange - Magically natural, smooth, and unerring in every way*. I would dare anyone to find any commercial speaker other than the larger confidence speakers with such a *perfect midrange*.

* Treble - Without question, the soft dome tweeter used in this speaker in conjunction with the sculpted baffle makes for *some of the finest, smoothest treble you'll find*.

* I don't think you can find a better performing commercial speaker, at any price, of this size. Since *I am a connoisseur of the best midrange performance and realistic sounding treble, the very properties these speakers excel at cater to my tastes perfectly*.

* What was most amazing, and something I think nearly everyone who has heard the C1 will attest to, is that *when music is playing on them, you are listening to the music, not the speaker*.

* The *treble was amazing, smooth and refined and extended, very natural* and it integrated well with the midrange, The detail that tweeter scoops out is amazing.

* After break-in the sound stage slightly receded as well with the upper midrange glare going away, tonally it took on a very *very detailed yet relaxed presentation with a sweet treble* and firm bass bookending a *truly glorious midrange*.

* They seem to *make listening effortless and are so smooth and soothing*, I was in danger of dropping off to sleep at times. This is a good thing because there was *absolutely no listener fatigue*, no strain, just superlative performance.

* The C1 shined in it's *über-refined midrange* and sheer cohesiveness, from top to bottom it was seriously well balanced, no mid bass bloat, *no upper midrange glare or forwardness*.

* No other Dynaudio product that I have heard (except for the Evidence Temptation model) has successfully re-created the *mid-range purity* and wholeness like the C1's.

* Other longer-term items to note: *I have yet to experience any listener fatigue with the C1's*

* The *Dyn C1s tend to be a bit warmer*, and the Focal Minis tend to be a bit sharp

* i am borrowing a friends dynaudio confidence c1 for the next two weeks and *i am absolutely floored at the sheer musicality of these speakers*. they are *absolutely the most natural sounding* speakers i have ever heard and if your eyes are closed you would actually think the singer is in the room with you...truly moving experience with these speakers. in addition these are the first speakers i have head with *absolutely zero listener fatigue*.

* i have heard dyn's in the past and they always sounded a tad bright and bass heavy but not so with these speakers. whatever dynaudio did with the C1s they really got these right. partnering gear is pass x2.5 pre and pass x350 amp. i can honestly say that these *reproduce voices better than my maggies and i cannot say that about any other speaker i have heard* before these. hats off to dynaudio!!

*Cons:*

* *Can sound bland* if poorly partnered. You need something lively to get these Dynaudios firing, something that makes the most of the speakers' rhythmical prowess and explosive dynamics, without adding weight to the lows. The Plinius 9200 integrated amp at £3000, or a top-end Cyrus pre/power combo would do it.

* If I had to speculate on a way the C1s may deviate from tonal neutrality, it would be that they may have a *slightly recessed lower midrange* and upper bass

* Like any transparent speaker, *no matter how coherent or well integrated it may be, the C1s will not turn a strident recording into something else*. "La Desaissada" from the Songs of the Auvergne LP spotlights soprano Jill Gomez to the point at which much of her upper range carries a distracting piercing quality in an otherwise beautiful performance. Even though the C1s can track the overlapping ripples of sibilance better than some other revealing speakers, "Poustoro" from the same LP has some sibilance that just can’t be avoided, and the C1s did not gloss over it. Some listeners may favor a more laid-back, forgiving speaker, one that makes nearly all recordings listenable. (sponge note: this is the closest I've read of any hint at a potentially incisive quality to the speaker, but it complaint is really with the recording)

* Their only weakness, as far as I can tell, was not being able to produce high output levels and crushing bass in a larger room -- a moot issue in my case and for many audiophile who might consider them, I would imagine.

* *In general, the Dynaudio house sound is "revealing," which can sometimes be audio code for "forward" or "overly detailed."* I understand why some listeners think this, but I haven't ever been as sensitive to it as the most outspoken of them. *Yet the C1 had less of this characteristic than any other Dynaudio speaker* I've heard.

* At that moment I learned two things about the C1: That it was capable of startlingly realistic portrayals of complex orchestral passages—the orchestra really sounded real—and that, in my room, *its treble was a little suppressed*. If, as many of us do, *you listen to a lot of overbright pop recordings, this could be a virtue.*

* Personally, *I would like a very slightly softer top end response*, but I could easily achieve it with a good EQ.

* The S3.4 had a wonderful presentation that was warmer and more forgiving and to some extent more classically euphonic compared to the c1, with a quick warm midrange that was veiled compared to the c1 but taken on it's own was a natural laid back sound. Man I thought the 3.4 had a monitor like sound but the c1 takes this to another level.

* *The C1 sins were maybe of omission of that final bite in the treble* that the s25 had but to increase it would have thrown the whole thing off balance ( if you want an even speaker with slightly more bite try the contour 3.4 or the s25 ).

* Based on the system I heard the s25 matched the Plinius better than the c1. The Plinius can be somewhat dark and the s25 helps off-set this but I do like the pairing of the c1 and the Plinius.


So apparently in my room exists some sort of alternate reality in which things sound the opposite of how they should.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18738553
> 
> 
> Which version of Audyssey does your Denon have? Have you tried Audyssey Pro? If the Marantz included the higher resolution Audyssey would that make you consider it? I took my speakers over to a friends house last week to see how they sounded on his system( Anthem avm50 with ARC and P-5 amplifier) and really liked the ARC. It sounded much better than my Pioneer with MCACC, two channel listening only. That's where I'm not satisfied with the Pioneer, movies it sounds pretty good. Although I would imagine that the Anthem sounds better. The speakers I'm using in this system are the Paradigm Studio 100 v5, which people often compare to the Sig v1.(I've never heard the Sig v1) Right now the Anthem combo is not a reality for me, so I need something lower in price but still sounds great. I live in Canada and the Pioneer recievers never hit the low prices available in the US and having one shipped cancels any savings. Sorry to ramble but you have a good grasp on what a system sounds like and are able to articulate what you are hearing. I enjoy reading your thoughts on different gear and you have tried most of the brands I would consider buying. Keep up the good work and hopefully you will find what you are looking for.



I've held off on buying the Audyssey PRO license and measurement equipment until I can decide if I'm going to keep the Denon, but the Pro option was one of the reasons I chose the Denon in the first place.


I owned the Anthem D2 and A5 for a month, and at the time I owned the Paradigm Sig V1's. I did not like that pairing, as I found the Anthem on the bright, lean side of neutral. Whereas the Martanz we listened to was on the warm, smooth side. If you liked the Anthem, you may find the Marantz too "polite". But for me, yes, if the Marantz had Audyssey Pro, I would be more inclined to buy it. And I would recommend it for anyone that finds their system sounds too sharp.



Hope that helps.


I still really need to get my hands on the NAD gear. I compared that to the Anthem and much preferred it, and NAD features a target Audyssey curve that is supposedly less aggressive sounding in the upper mids / treble.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/18738653
> 
> 
> As you've mentioned, the WB-Classe pairing was the best overall that you've ever experienced. It would be nice to bring in the full Classe stock just to compare and get a handle on the C1s. The Classe Amps (which is the missing piece in the evaluation done yesterday) would hopefully give us a better picture. IMO every single piece in the chain right down to the cables (Spk wires, ICs, PCs) would matter and interact differently. Be patient Tim, slowly but surely you'll get to where you wanted before you know it.



Yes, the Classe SSP + Classe amp would have been the ideal audition, but that simply isn't possible right now.


I want to make the C1's work, so I'm going to give it some time. I figure another week should do it.


----------



## ronesp

Well Tim, I don't know what to say. I understand the frustrations you must be going through. While I haven't heard the C1's here's a little bit of my experience while auditioning the Focus 360's (same esotar tweeter). I first went to a dealer hoping to hear the 220's. Of course they didn't have them but they did have the 360's set up hooked up to Parasound's 2100 pre and 2250 amp. My impression of them was, well I couldn't understand the love. I thought they were very sibilant and a little bright and edgy. Now before everyone starts flaming me let me explain that the setup had loads of problems. The store was basically a warehouse with I believe a tin roof, no tiles, acoustic or otherwise on the ceiling and concrete walls and cement floors. The speakers were set up maybe 5' apart, toed in at different angles no less. The soundstage was very flat, no depth, width or height at all. I never thought the sound was coming from anywhere but the speakers. Of course the owner told me I would only get that from speakers costing $10,000 or more. Yeah, OK. Now after hearing other speakers in my search I've found that they really aren't that sibilant or bright after all. Anyway, a buddy of mine has a friend that owns the 360's and we went over to listen to them. He was running them of of some Electrocompaniet equipment. What a change. I had the same demo disc's with me. The sibilance was mostly gone, as was the brightness, edginess.. Huge soundstage and very good imaging. The Electrocompaniet seemed to smooth everything out, eliminate the harshness I heard at the dealers. They were transparent, detailed and well just more smooth sounding. I don't want to say they rounded off the highs because to me that kind of implies a rolling off of the highs but the detail was all there. I've since gone to the dealer where he bought the Electrocompaniet and listened to some BG's (planar magnetic) and some Nola vipers and found the same thing. I guess what I'm getting at is that maybe you can find an Electocompaniet dealer around to give a listen. Also, I know what you've said about tubes but maybe?? And while I haven't personally heard Belles I've read some things about them giving kind of that tube sound. Anyway, just some more suggestions trying to help.


----------



## hifisponge

Hi ronesp,


Thanks for the feedback, the suggestions and even more for the kind words.


If this were a 2CH build, the world would be my oyster, but I really want to make this work for multichannel. If I can do it, hopefully it will help others looking to get a smooth natural sound for their HTs too.


----------



## ronesp

Tim, I haven't checked their website but I think they do make a multichannel preamp. Haven't done any research on it though.


Ron


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18738990
> 
> 
> I've held off on buying the Audyssey PRO license and measurement equipment until I can decide if I'm going to keep the Denon, but the Pro option was one of the reasons I chose the Denon in the first place.
> 
> 
> I owned the Anthem D2 and A5 for a month, and at the time I owned the Paradigm Sig V1's. I did not like that pairing, as I found the Anthem on the bright, lean side of neutral. Whereas the Martanz we listened to was on the warm, smooth side. If you liked the Anthem, you may find the Marantz too "polite". But for me, yes, if the Marantz had Audyssey Pro, I would be more inclined to buy it. And I would recommend it for anyone that finds their system sounds too sharp.
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> 
> I still really need to get my hands on the NAD gear. I compared that to the Anthem and much preferred it, and NAD features a target Audyssey curve that is supposedly less aggressive sounding in the upper mids / treble.



Hopefully in the fall an 8004 will be released with Audyssey Pro capablities,(if you can wait that long)that's what I'm waiting for. I liked the Anthem better than my Pioneer but I'm not sure if it's the right sound for me. I have some Marantz gear right now which produces a sound that I like but it's two channel only. Another friend of mine has some NAD gear that sounds really good, it's before any room correction software was avalible in Nad electronics so I can't comment on their Audyssey target curve. I've read that NAD has some problems with their avr's and hopefully that's been taken care of now.


----------



## GPowered

Hey Tim! Hey Guys. Thanks to all for your hard work and reported findings. i have been in touch with Tim and was anxious to hear how this would pan out. As Tim knows, I had C1's for a while, and sold them off for monetary reasons. I used Naim electronics and found no edginess or grain whatsoever. For HT, I used a Marantz SR6003 paired with the Naim amp, to great success... but I am not as critical on HT as Tim knows I am more of a 2 channel enthusiast.


Is it possible that what you are hearing is room room induced - reflections, etc.??? Do you have any room treatments? I know for sure that my room acts different to every combo of speakers and electronics I have. For instance, there have been times when I needed a large amount of panels and in the case I have now with Quad ESL's, I need very little if any at all (just a couple traps in corners to tighten bass). Just a thought. This just sounds like room acoustics to me based on the fact that I know the C1's and they are extremely revealing, but not grainy. They are in fact very smooth and extremely musical. Perhaps the WB's just reacted with the room better...







?


***Edit*** I just saw where room acoustics was discussed. Sounds like it is definitely electronics then.


----------



## hifisponge

GP -


You beat me to it with your edit, but just to reiterate, yes the room is treated. But that doesn't mean I haven't still considered the room. One of the things I always do with all of my speaker purchases when I hear a problem is to listen to the speaker in the near-field to minimize the reflections as much as possible.


When doing my research on the C1's I came across some of your comments on them and I remember reading something from you about hearing the grain accentuated in poor recordings. I think this was before you tried the Naim gear.


The Marantz definitely helped, I would just like to find a solution like it that has a better EQ. I want to try the NAD again.


----------



## CorboDuze

Maybe it would be useful to compare this pair of C1 with another pair of identical C1, just to make sure everything is Ok with these speakers? (comparison with a demo pair of the dealer...)


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/18740497
> 
> 
> Maybe it would be useful to compare this pair of C1 with another pair of identical C1, just to make sure everything is Ok with these speakers? (comparison with a demo pair of the dealer...)



Not a bad idea. I'll see what I can arrange.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18740537
> 
> 
> Not a bad idea. I'll see what I can arrange.



Hi Tim,


Just some general thoughts I had after further reflection. I actually came home, dismantled my system and laid the components on the floor. I decided to take a break and didn't reassemble until tonight and sat and listened with relaxed ears. I sat enjoying some Damien Rice and Diana Krall. Grain free, etch free and I just sat back and enjoyed it. Then I decided to revisit the playlist you posted. It's a day later, but I definitely heard less grain (oddly this grain thing is bothering me more than the etch now after hearing it so pronounced Saturday) but when I did hear it I heard it. Even when it was small traces, listening to the problem tracks earlier kind of messed with my mind and found me noticing it other tracks even when I wasn't looking for it. It got me to thinking, if you do try the NAD M15HD or other processor, you may want to take a short break and just listen to the new component and not try to A/B or immediately jump to the problem tracks you know of. Just a thought.


One other thought I had was that I noticed the Dynaudio's were aggressive. After coming home and listening to my system, I think a good description is "shouty". Not sure if that makes sense but I wonder if it's just the fact that the Dyn's are highly resolving and these pop/electronica/r&b tracks are recorded that way, bright, shouty, and full of compression. I think we confirmed the Denon probably exacerbates this problem further. Maybe the Dyn's are just presenting as the recording as it is and letting whatever negative contribution the Denon is adding and letting it through. So in a way, the Dyn's are contributing but by being a highly accurate monitor.


The solution to this would be to replace the ht processor and if the new ht processor is a highly resolving, then you would need to listen to only good recordings, which apparently limits music to a very small population. Or go to a speaker that helps mitigate some of the issues that bad recordings present. Like the Dali's (which can be laid back to some







or just right for others) or as you describe the WB's.


It just seems like such a crap shoot to find just the right speaker, processor combination to have a highly resolving sound but tame bad recordings just enough to make then enjoyable.


----------



## vantagesc

chjo,

Sorry if I missed this, but what speakers do you have?


----------



## GPowered




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18740450
> 
> 
> GP -
> 
> 
> You beat me to it with your edit, but just to reiterate, yes the room is treated. But that doesn't mean I haven't still considered the room. One of the things I always do with all of my speaker purchases when I hear a problem is to listen to the speaker in the near-field to minimize the reflections as much as possible.
> 
> 
> When doing my research on the C1's I came across some of your comments on them and I remember reading something from you about hearing the grain accentuated in poor recordings. I think this was before you tried the Naim gear.
> 
> 
> The Marantz definitely helped, I would just like to find a solution like it that has a better EQ. I want to try the NAD again.



The Esotar2 tweeter itself is extremely revealing, and the woofer is as well so they had a tendency to reveal "everything." So yes, if a recording was overcooked in areas, the C1's would expose it big time. However, the C1's are a very refined monitor and with that being said they are very smooth especially in the mid range and throughout the entire band as well. I completely understand what you mean by "grain." Most of the lower to moderately priced loudspeakers I've owned had that to some degree. In fact that's one of the main reasons I became prepared to stretch my budget - I was able to conclude over and over without any question refinement was one of the main aspects I was paying for in a superior designed loudspeaker.


The C1's could get clinical because of their amazing accuracy - musical recordings sounded musical, while bad recordings came across as such, but again the mid range was always clear and the highs free of etch or grain. If the recording itself was grainy, then yes, it would sound that way. There are plenty of loudspeakers that are colored to mask this, but the tradeoff is that they won't reveal that level of detail either. One of the reasons I love my Quads so much is just that - in mid range they are extremely revealing, but the highs are rolled off so they don't pick up as much of the "junk" up there. As a result they have a less revealing but much more musical sound than most speakers I've heard (actually ALL speakers I've heard to this point). But enough of that as a Quad is not really HT speaker, i.e., irrelevant.


I am going to suggest trying some panels in other places. Try to figure out the main reflection points and treat them. Treatment has always made a world of difference for me, especially with moving coil speakers in a "harder" room. I have some extra 69' x 36' gray panels if you are interested. They are big and not the pretty but they work wonders.


----------



## ronesp

Well, just checked Electrocompaniets website. They don't have a ss processor so scratch that idea. Stupid me, should have checked before posting.


----------



## GPowered




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18740783
> 
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> 
> Just some general thoughts I had after further reflection. I actually came home, dismantled my system and laid the components on the floor. I decided to take a break and didn't reassemble until tonight and sat and listened with relaxed ears. I sat enjoying some Damien Rice and Diana Krall. Grain free, etch free and I just sat back and enjoyed it. Then I decided to revisit the playlist you posted. It's a day later, but I definitely heard less grain (oddly this grain thing is bothering me more than the etch now after hearing it so pronounced Saturday) but when I did hear it I heard it. Even when it was small traces, listening to the problem tracks earlier kind of messed with my mind and found me noticing it other tracks even when I wasn't looking for it. It got me to thinking, if you do try the NAD M15HD or other processor, you may want to take a short break and just listen to the new component and not try to A/B or immediately jump to the problem tracks you know of. Just a thought.
> 
> 
> One other thought I had was that I noticed the Dynaudio's were aggressive. After coming home and listening to my system, I think a good description is "shouty". Not sure if that makes sense but I wonder if it's just the fact that the Dyn's are highly resolving and these pop/electronica/r&b tracks are recorded that way, bright, shouty, and full of compression. I think we confirmed the Denon probably exacerbates this problem further. Maybe the Dyn's are just presenting as the recording as it is and letting whatever negative contribution the Denon is adding and letting it through. So in a way, the Dyn's are contributing but by being a highly accurate monitor.
> 
> 
> The solution to this would be to replace the ht processor and if the new ht processor is a highly resolving, then you would need to listen to only good recordings, which apparently limits music to a very small population. Or go to a speaker that helps mitigate some of the issues that bad recordings present. Like the Dali's (which can be laid back to some
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or just right for others) or as you describe the WB's.
> 
> 
> It just seems like such a crap shoot to find just the right speaker, processor combination to have a highly resolving sound but tame bad recordings just enough to make then enjoyable.



You make some really strong and valid points.







The Dynes are very revealing- I've owned Audience 70's, Audience 42's, Focus 220 II's, the Focus center channel, and C1's, and they were that way, especially as one moves up the line. But "shouty" or aggressive they are not IMO. They are just true to the source (as you also mentioned as a possibility). Many people describe them as being laid back, but I would say they are somewhere in the middle. I remember when I went from my PSB Synchrony Ones, to a pair of Focus 140 monitors (I was demoing before I bought the 220Mk II's), the 140's fatigued me a little at louder volumes because I had become accustomed to the darker nature of the PSB's. But once I got used to it, I enjoyed the detailed sound very much. The highs, even in Focus line, are of much better quality then the PSB IMO, although man I loved the Synchrony One's dynamics - a great HT speaker! Moving on...


In regard to your comments about "the crapshoot." It is a challenge to get synergy right, and that's where we all come in to help each other through our experiences, etc. Dealers, when qualified, can help provide information about this too. In all of the systems I've had (and I have had too many)!, only twice have I hit the synergy jackpot. I did it with Naim and Dynaudio, and now I have it with Quad and Tri (tube gear). But as mentioned, I am a 2 channel guy mainly so my critical listening is done with music - I love HT too but to me, a nice forward pair of Paradigms, etc. would suit be just fine.


Tim - keep in mind that the Dynaudio C1 is a fantastic music speaker in that is designed to reveal all of the nuances of the music. As you know, the Esotar tweeter is highly regarded as one of, if not the best soft domes out there. But if you are really listening to allot of compressed music or popular music, such as pop, and mainstream bands then you are going to hear the flaws as they are. No doubt a more relaxed speaker would play through that stuff better, or should I say more naturally. Not that I thought the C1 was no good with that kind of music - because that is mostly what I listen to, lol - but it is true that a more laid back, relaxed speaker and/or electronics tend to mask or roll off some of the sibilance, shoutiness, etc. Another possibility would be to try and match your pre/pro and amp so you pick up the "house" sound of the brand (granted your source is high quality), and that combined with the right synergy could benefit you.


Is the Plinius amp the end all?


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18741672
> 
> 
> chjo,
> 
> Sorry if I missed this, but what speakers do you have?



I use the Eficion F300 ( http://www.eficion.com ). It has a watt puppy configuration, and used a AMT tweeter and a super ribbon tweeter on the back. The speaker is way to large for my room







But I got them when I had a much bigger space. I mentioned this to someone (perhaps it was you) but someone I know went all doctor Frankenstein on the F300 and is using an active crossover (Modded Behringer) and tri amping the speaker. I hear it's rather remarkable improvement. I was supposed to hear it last month but could not make it which is rather unfortunate. However, I am very happy with the sound I am getting now, perhaps it's best I'm left wondering.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18740783
> 
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> 
> Just some general thoughts I had after further reflection. I actually came home, dismantled my system and laid the components on the floor. I decided to take a break and didn't reassemble until tonight and sat and listened with relaxed ears. I sat enjoying some Damien Rice and Diana Krall. Grain free, etch free and I just sat back and enjoyed it. Then I decided to revisit the playlist you posted. It's a day later, but I definitely heard less grain (oddly this grain thing is bothering me more than the etch now after hearing it so pronounced Saturday) but when I did hear it I heard it. Even when it was small traces, listening to the problem tracks earlier kind of messed with my mind and found me noticing it other tracks even when I wasn't looking for it. It got me to thinking, if you do try the NAD M15HD or other processor, you may want to take a short break and just listen to the new component and not try to A/B or immediately jump to the problem tracks you know of. Just a thought.



Yes, I agree this is a good idea. As they say, when you are looking for a fault, you're gonna find one. And then there is the issue we discussed about becoming hyper-sensitive to the problem temporarily, which highlights the problem in everything. So listening to the NAD or whatever should be done casually without focus on good or bad.



> Quote:
> One other thought I had was that I noticed the Dynaudio's were aggressive. After coming home and listening to my system, I think a good description is "shouty". Not sure if that makes sense but I wonder if it's just the fact that the Dyn's are highly resolving and these pop/electronica/r&b tracks are recorded that way, bright, shouty, and full of compression. I think we confirmed the Denon probably exacerbates this problem further. Maybe the Dyn's are just presenting as the recording as it is and letting whatever negative contribution the Denon is adding and letting it through. So in a way, the Dyn's are contributing but by being a highly accurate monitor.



Yes, I know exactly what you are talking about. I used the same term shouty when describing one of the shortcomings of the Paradigm speakers. To me, it is this sense that I am being given too much. It's funny, because this may turn into the bigger nut to crack. Based on the Marantz, I think there is a chance to tame the etch / edge, but I wonder if the forwardness of the C1s might be a bit too much foe me. I do find that I don't want to turn them up very high. I've said this before, but this is why I like a laid back speaker. You can goose the volume without the sound becoming aggressive.



> Quote:
> The solution to this would be to replace the ht processor and if the new ht processor is a highly resolving, then you would need to listen to only good recordings, which apparently limits music to a very small population. Or go to a speaker that helps mitigate some of the issues that bad recordings present. Like the Dali's (which can be laid back to some
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or just right for others) or as you describe the WB's.



For me, I think that some softening of the signal needs to happen somewhere in the chain. You can go revealing speaker, with polite electronics, or polite speakers with accurate electronics, but you if you flip flop those the sound is either aggressive or uninvolving.



> Quote:
> It just seems like such a crap shoot to find just the right speaker, processor combination to have a highly resolving sound but tame bad recordings just enough to make then enjoyable.



Yes, I think you can attest to this in your own adventures in system matching. That's the problem with this hobby-- too many variables. You might find the sound you want, but the features don't line up with your needs, or the box is ugly, or they sound good for movies but not for music, or there's no matching center, or the cost is too high, etc, etc, etc.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18742059
> 
> 
> I use the Eficion F300 ( http://www.eficion.com ). It has a watt puppy configuration, and used a AMT tweeter and a super ribbon tweeter on the back. The speaker is way to large for my room
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I got them when I had a much bigger space. I mentioned this to someone (perhaps it was you) but someone I know went all doctor Frankenstein on the F300 and is using an active crossover (Modded Behringer) and tri amping the speaker. I hear it's rather remarkable improvement. I was supposed to hear it last month but could not make it which is rather unfortunate. However, I am very happy with the sound I am getting now, perhaps it's best I'm left wondering.



Ah yes, I remember now. I was just looking for a point of comparison as to what you consider more at ease than the C1s.


BTW, did you guys listen to mostly Tim's recordings or did you bring any of your own music?


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18742480
> 
> 
> Ah yes, I remember now. I was just looking for a point of comparison as to what you consider more at ease than the C1s.
> 
> 
> BTW, did you guys listen to mostly Tim's recordings or did you bring any of your own music?



I brought four or five tracks over but I would say we spent 90% of the time to listen to Tims' recordings. I would not consider the F300's a laid back speaker and actually I expected the C1's to much more sound laid back and have a almost ethereal quality based on reviews. This was not the case on Saturday even when we listened to good quality recordings.


----------



## fiogray




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/18737523
> 
> 
> ...perhaps Ed can bring his 805ds for our next shootout to see how they play with a Classe/Parasound combo.



This direct comparison between the C1's and 805di with that gear would be very interesting.


Tim, it is not very clear to me whether in the end you still prefer the C1's over the 805Di (?), now that you also found the C1's letting pass that edgy quality to the sound that you mentioned previously with the 805d too.


Do you think the 805Di are worth the price vs the C1's?


All this discusion is very helpful for a lot of us. Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts in such a detailed manner.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fiogray* /forum/post/18742743
> 
> 
> This direct comparison between the C1's and 805di with that gear would be very interesting.
> 
> 
> Tim, it is not very clear to me whether in the end you still prefer the C1's over the 805Di (?), now that you also found the C1's letting pass that edgy quality to the sound that you mentioned previously with the 805d too.
> 
> 
> Do you think the 805Di are worth the price vs the C1's?
> 
> 
> All this discusion is very helpful for a lot of us. Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts in such a detailed manner.



Hmmm... tough call. At this point if I had to choose between the two, I think I would probably go for the 805Di. They were slightly edgy to my ears, but the midrange was more relaxed and their was less of the recording grain let through than with the C1. I can say for certain that yes, I feel the 805Di are worth the price. In fact, considering the cost of the tweeter and the labor intensive finish, I think that they should cost more than they do.


However, Dynaudio feels very strongly that I am being too quick to judge, as the they believe that C1's take 300+ hours to sound as they should. And in looking at all of the reviews, it sure seems like we listened to different speakers than what has been described of the C1 sound.


So more time is needed to make a more definitive call on my peference for one or the other.


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fiogray* /forum/post/18742743
> 
> 
> This direct comparison between the C1's and 805di with that gear would be very interesting.
> 
> 
> Tim, it is not very clear to me whether in the end you still prefer the C1's over the 805Di (?), now that you also found the C1's letting pass that edgy quality to the sound that you mentioned previously with the 805d too.
> 
> 
> Do you think the 805Di are worth the price vs the C1's?
> 
> 
> All this discusion is very helpful for a lot of us. Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts in such a detailed manner.



I hope that we can make the direct comparsion between the 805Di's and the C1's during our next event. It was up for consideration this time, but we wanted to focus on the electronics.


During the session last Saturday the C1's did have some serious bass and I think is a little better than the 805Di's. However, I do have the 805Di's on a bookshelf. I hope to have some custom stands soon for a better comparsion.


Ed


----------



## adidino

Tim,


Get these and call it a day...









http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....-Mk-2-Limited-


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/18744314
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> Get these and call it a day...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....-Mk-2-Limited-



With my luck, even though I've heard and love the Dali Helicon's, I'd put them in my bizarro world of a room and they would sound like crap.










I'm thinking the next thing I should consider is to get someone to do a sage burning to exercise the audio demons from my room.


----------



## vantagesc

Stick the C1's in your game room, run by the HK gear, and let the demons leave your main room.







If you are not buying Dynaudio's break-in story, then that might offer a fresh perspective.


----------



## Fanaticalism

I still say go for the Fabers.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18744750
> 
> 
> Stick the C1's in your game room, run by the HK gear, and let the demons leave your main room.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are not buying Dynaudio's break-in story, then that might offer a fresh perspective.



Certainly wouldn't hurt to try. Thanks!


----------



## Mr_Superstar

Hi Tim,


Some of your comments about the C1's midrange remind me of the comments you made about the Sapphire's.


While I have never heard either the C1's or the Sapphire's, I have a pair of SongTower's that also measure quite flat through the midrange, similar to the C1's. To my ears, a "flat" midrange to me is a fairly forward midrange. I wouldn't necessarily call it aggressive, though (this might depend on the particular speaker).


I am also using a Marantz 7002 to power my speakers, so perhaps there is some amount of synergy between it and my speakers. I can't be sure as I've never listened to a different amp & SongTower combo in my room.


I hope you find your ideal speakers/front-end combo soon; however, I do enjoy reading your experiences.


Scott


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks Steve.










Yeah, I went back and reviewed my notes on the Sapphires and I noticed that I commented on a slightly more forward presentation (than Revel), and even some "bite" the treble (at times), but for some reason these things are more bothersome to me with the C1. The C1's in my room with my gear also doesn't have the body through the mids that the Sapphires did, which it is shifting the balance toward cool / clinical.


I'm not sure what my next steps will be, but hopefully something good will become of my fumbling through this hobby.


----------



## Daman S

Aha! I revisit this thread after a couple of days and how things have progressed. Absolutely fantastic that you guys were able to do a comparison test of all the Pre-pro's together!


IMVHO i think there definitely is some synergy issue going on here.. I feel certain speakers tend to sound great with certain pre/pro-amplifier combination..


Tim, maybe I'm wrong but I'm not sure how much the break in would change the C1s sound, because from what i read you are pretty far off in what you want currently?. Maybe you can test some other speakers that you liked earlier(Wilson/Dalis) and see which one sounds the best and how much they improve over the C1s?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18746822
> 
> 
> Aha! I revisit this thread after a couple of days and how things have progressed. Absolutely fantastic that you guys were able to do a comparison test of all the Pre-pro's together!
> 
> 
> IMVHO i think there definitely is some synergy issue going on here.. I feel certain speakers tend to sound great with certain pre/pro-amplifier combination..
> 
> 
> Tim, maybe I'm wrong but I'm not sure how much the break in would change the C1s sound, because from what i read you are pretty far off in what you want currently?. Maybe you can test some other speakers that you liked earlier(Wilson/Dalis) and see which one sounds the best and how much they improve over the C1s?



Yeah, the C1's are leaving me pretty cold right now, so I agree that I don't know if break-in or a new front end are going to get me to my preferred sound. But I struggle with the fact that according to the numerous end-user reports and professional reviews the C1s are considered to be one of the best sounding monitors in the world. Why did all of us at the meeting in my home last Saturday come away with impressions that don't line up with what has been written about them?


Prior to the guys coming over, I would have written this off as just one very picky user (me), but knowing that they all heard the same issues, and with some very high-end gear in front of the C1's, I just don't get it.


I would really like to try Dali again, and it is sad that this would keep them from me, but they only come in wood finishes that clash with the decor of my room.


I may see if I can get some time with the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M's for a contrast and compare, that is if my local dealer is willing to loan them to me.


The truth is, this is getting to the point that this is more pain than pleasure for me, but finding the right sound has become my Moby Dick and I feel the need to press on until I get something that works.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18746966
> 
> 
> Yeah, the C1's are leaving me pretty cold right now, so I agree that I don't know if break-in or a new front end are going to get me to my preferred sound. But I struggle with the fact that according to the numerous end-user reports and professional reviews the C1s are considered to be one of the best sounding monitors in the world. Why did all of us at the meeting in my home last Saturday come away with impressions that don't line up with what has been written about them?
> 
> 
> Prior to the guys coming over, I would have written this off as just one very picky user (me), but knowing that they all heard the same issues, and with some very high-end gear in front of the C1's, I just don't get it.
> 
> 
> I would really like to try Dali again, and it is sad that this would keep them from me, but they only come in wood finishes that clash with the decor of my room.
> 
> 
> I may see if I can get some time with the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M's for a contrast and compare, that is if my local dealer is willing to loan them to me.
> 
> 
> The truth is, this is getting to the point that this is more pain than pleasure for me, but finding the right sound has become my Moby Dick and I feel the need to press on until I get something that works.



Is cost a big obstacle to going back to what you considered your best setup (the WB's with Classe)? Or was there something in that setup you still wanted to improve on and will continue to explore at this time? Maybe I'm just selfish in wanting to hear that WB+Classe setup.


----------



## CLS

Tim, I still believe the need to reposition and find the sweet spot for your C1s. Once optimized, we can move on and address the associated electronics.



I agree with NoFlyZone:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NoFlyZone* /forum/post/18653266
> 
> 
> They (C1's) image amazingly well, at least as good as the MBL's in the sweet spot. The MBL's sweet spot is - all over. Everyone can enjoy, not just the captain in the "spot". The vocals are suductive and the focus of the C1's is amoung the best I've heard - not the Audio Physic Avanti focus but very good. These speakers can layer depth. If you don't here this, something is wrong in your chain.
> 
> get them away from the wall at least 36" towed in about 7 to 8 degres to start with about 8 feet distance apart. have someone audiophilish to play with toe while you sit in the "spot".Bass traps are mandatory if wish to here the clarity and soundstage these speakers can produce.
> 
> ENJOY!


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18746966
> 
> 
> Yeah, the C1's are leaving me pretty cold right now, so I agree that I don't know if break-in or a new front end are going to get me to my preferred sound. But I struggle with the fact that according to the numerous end-user reports and professional reviews the C1s are considered to be one of the best sounding monitors in the world. Why did all of us at the meeting in my home last Saturday come away with impressions that don't line up with what has been written about them?
> 
> 
> Prior to the guys coming over, I would have written this off as just one very picky user (me), but knowing that they all heard the same issues, and with some very high-end gear in front of the C1's, I just don't get it.
> 
> 
> I would really like to try Dali again, and it is sad that this would keep them from me, but they only come in wood finishes that clash with the decor of my room.
> 
> 
> I may see if I can get some time with the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M's for a contrast and compare, that is if my local dealer is willing to loan them to me.
> 
> 
> The truth is, this is getting to the point that this is more pain than pleasure for me, but finding the right sound has become my Moby Dick and I feel the need to press on until I get something that works.



Have you looked the anniversary edition Dalis? They come in Piano black finish that would fit your decor nicely.

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...ary_treatment/ 











I hear what you are saying about the C1s but if the Wilson's sounded great in your room, then so should the C1s if all other elements remain the same right.. maybe audition some broken in C1s at a dealer and see if they sound any different.. just trying to throw in some ideas.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18747640
> 
> 
> Have you looked the anniversary edition Dalis? They come in Piano black finish that would fit your decor nicely.
> 
> http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...ary_treatment/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hear what you are saying about the C1s but if the Wilson's sounded great in your room, then so should the C1s if all other elements remain the same right.. maybe audition some broken in C1s at a dealer and see if they sound any different.. just trying to throw in some ideas.



I appreciate the suggestions Daman. Unfortunately, with the Dalis, they make no matching center speaker or surrounds in the gloss black. Close but not there.


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18747667
> 
> 
> I appreciate the suggestions Daman. Unfortunately, w
> 
> ith the Dalis, they make no matching center speaker or surrounds in the gloss black. Close but not there.



No problems Tim.. as an engineer i just want to dig into things till i can solve them so please do excuse me if i come across as too eager.


You are right about the color issue of course, I did not think of the center channel issue. As you said, close but not there!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Daman S* /forum/post/18747786
> 
> 
> No problems Tim.. as an engineer i just want to dig into things till i can solve them so please do excuse me if i come across as too eager.
> 
> 
> You are right about the color issue of course, I did not think of the center channel issue. As you said, close but not there!



Daman -


I truly appreciate your interest in helping me through this and I don't want you or anyone else to feel that I'm just shooting down all of the ideas/sugesstions that have been offered up. It is simply that most of the time, I've already tried what has been suggested.


I'm not an Engineer, but I am an analytical thinker and a problem solver, so I tend to work through my problems as methodically as I can before bringing it up for suggestions.


I welcome any and all future thoughts, ideas, suggestions.


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18748478
> 
> 
> Daman -
> 
> 
> I truly appreciate your interest in helping me through this and I don't want you or anyone else to feel that I'm just shooting down all of the ideas/sugesstions that have been offered up. It is simply that most of the time, I've already tried what has been suggested.
> 
> 
> I'm not an Engineer, but I am an analytical thinker and a problem solver, so I tend to work through my problems as methodically as I can before bringing it up for suggestions.
> 
> 
> I welcome any and all future thoughts, ideas, suggestions.



Cheers Tim! Here's to you finding the audio nirvana you seek very soon!


----------



## CorboDuze

Let's try to analyze: what could be the source of the difference of appreciation between the reviews in the press and your experience?


a) Insufficient break-in time


b) Mismatch with recordings you are using


c) Mismatch with other components in your system


d) Issue with your specific pair of speakers making it different from "standard"


e) Placement, room properties


f) speakers sold now are different from the ones that were used in the reviews (changes in internal components, manufacturing, tuning?)



Do you see any other possibility?


Since manufacturer is pointing to a), then I am afraid you have to be stoic for a while...


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/18752703
> 
> 
> Let's try to analyze: what could be the source of the difference of appreciation between the reviews in the press and your experience?
> 
> 
> a) Insufficient break-in time
> 
> 
> b) Mismatch with recordings you are using
> 
> 
> c) Mismatch with other components in your system
> 
> 
> d) Issue with your specific pair of speakers making it different from "standard"
> 
> 
> e) Placement, room properties
> 
> 
> f) speakers sold now are different from the ones that were used in the reviews (changes in internal components, manufacturing, tuning?)
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see any other possibility?
> 
> 
> Since manufacturer is pointing to a), then I am afraid you have to be stoic for a while...



Yes, that just about covers is, save one:


g) Mismatch between speaker character and user preference


Yes, since I have covered b, c, and e through trouble shooting, and since I have no control over d and f, I must hurry up and wait for "a" and hope it's not "g".


----------



## Fanaticalism




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18753042
> 
> 
> Yes, that just about covers is, save one:
> 
> 
> g) Mismatch between speaker character and user preference
> 
> 
> Yes, since I have covered b, c, and e through trouble shooting, and since I have no control over d and f, I must hurry up and wait for "a" and hope it's not "g".



Lol, great response.


----------



## CorboDuze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18753042
> 
> 
> Yes, that just about covers is, save one:
> 
> 
> g) Mismatch between speaker character and user preference
> 
> 
> Yes, since I have covered b, c, and e through trouble shooting, and since I have no control over d and f, I must hurry up and wait for "a" and hope it's not "g".



I did not mention g), because in your case this is the normal conclusion of the whole process...










Joke aside, this is an expensive pair of speakers highly regarded by the critics and sold by reputable hi-fi dealers.

Now, after a listening session, a group of four knowledgeable audiophiles have all concluded they do not like the sound of it.

The normal situation would be that everyone agrees it is a great pair of speakers, then each person expresses some minor reservations based on individual preferences and subtle nuances.


Judging from the outside, it seems something is not right.


If the situation persists after the break in period, then probably the manufacturer and the dealer should be brought into the investigation.

Given the amount of money spent, you are entitled to get support from the people who made and sold those speakers.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/18753740
> 
> 
> I did not mention g), because in your case this is the normal conclusion of the whole process...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joke aside, this is an expensive pair of speakers highly regarded by the critics and sold by reputable hi-fi dealers.
> 
> Now, after a listening session, a group of four knowledgeable audiophiles have all concluded they do not like the sound of it.
> 
> The normal situation would be that everyone agrees it is a great pair of speakers, then each person expresses some minor reservations based on individual preferences and subtle nuances.
> 
> 
> Judging from the outside, it seems something is not right.
> 
> 
> If the situation persists after the break in period, then probably the manufacturer and the dealer should be brought into the investigation.
> 
> Given the amount of money spent, you are entitled to get support from the people who made and sold those speakers.




I agree 100%.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/18753740
> 
> 
> I did not mention g), because in your case this is the normal conclusion of the whole process...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joke aside, this is an expensive pair of speakers highly regarded by the critics and sold by reputable hi-fi dealers.
> 
> Now, after a listening session, a group of four knowledgeable audiophiles have all concluded they do not like the sound of it.
> 
> The normal situation would be that everyone agrees it is a great pair of speakers, then each person expresses some minor reservations based on individual preferences and subtle nuances.
> 
> 
> Judging from the outside, it seems something is not right.
> 
> 
> If the situation persists after the break in period, then probably the manufacturer and the dealer should be brought into the investigation.
> 
> Given the amount of money spent, you are entitled to get support from the people who made and sold those speakers.



OK, so having some fun with this, depending on your level of cynicism, you could also add the following to your list:


h) the professional reviews are corporate shills, paid to say good things

i) the average consumer is gullible enough to believe what they read and so they parrot what has been said in the reviews


And if you are a hardcore subjectivist / elitist you could add:


j) the group assembled at my home possess remarkable hearing acuity far above the average user (aka Golden Ears)


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18753850
> 
> 
> OK, so having some fun with this, depending on your level of cynicism, you could also add the following to your list:
> 
> 
> h) the professional reviews are corporate shills, paid to say good things
> 
> i) the average consumer is gullible enough to believe what they read and so they parrot what has been said in the reviews
> 
> 
> And if you are a hardcore subjectivist / elitist you could add:
> 
> 
> j) the group assembled at my home possess remarkable hearing acuity far above the average user (aka Golden Ears)



My money is on "j"


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/18754766
> 
> 
> My money is on "j"



Ha, yes. We shall now be known as S.A.G.E. The Seattle Area Golden Ears.


----------



## mrciave

Hi Tim,


I read quickly through the thread (I came here from your thread on HTGUIDE about 805Dis), and it seems almost no work has been done on cables, both signal and speakers.


I will tell my past experience with my entry level stereo system. I was young and running on a budget, so I selected a Marantz CD53-SE over the more expensive CD63. The only problem was a bit of harsh treble (easy to distinguish on the "s" of female singers).


I also went with the Rotel RA-930BX over the NAD 3020 because it was a bit more soft, and taming a bit of the edginess of the CD player. Speakers were the Diapason Micra II.


Finally, when the system was home and proper running in was done (around a month), I had a friend come over with some 20 speaker and signal cables. After doing many back to back tests and trying out various combinations, I ended up with:

- a signal cable that softened the treble, but the trade off was a bit of less detail (basically something that masked the edginess)

- a speaker cable that emphasizes the bass (which was a bit lacking on the speakers and the amp lacked punch as well, but was more musical than the NAD)


This combination kept me happy for 15 years, with just a small excursion with another speaker cable. I had the chance to buy a very good speaker cable (Van den Hul silver), I replaced the old Audioquest, and immediately I had:

- more dry bass

- more details

- less "muddy" sound, basically better separation between instruments, and so on


BUT: listening fatigue was enormous, musicality was gone and finally I switched back to the old speaker cable.


As you know, now a brand new pair of 802D sits at home with Gryphon Diablo and Esoteric SA-50, but I'm running in the whole package, and I will wait for a few months before going through cable tests.


But I hope that sharing this experience can show that, IMHO, especially on budget systems (meaning not top class), where obviously each component has strong and weak points, cables can be used to +/- things and finally get a balanced combination.


My worry is that your speaker cables (which apparently did not change in the whole process) might have this character.


Signal cables should also be considered, but since the edginess is there no matter the source (computer, video and audio), I would start from the common part.


Andrea


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrciave* /forum/post/18760870
> 
> 
> 
> Signal cables should also be considered, but since the edginess is there no matter the source (computer, video and audio), I would start from the common part.
> 
> 
> Andrea



This would be interesting


----------



## hifisponge

Andrea -


Thanks for th suggestion. I remain open minded to all possibilities to improve the sound, though I have done a pretty good run with cables in the past and did not hear the differences that you do. I actually wish that I did, because this would give me another option to fine tune the sound. The other problem is, that even if I were to give speaker cables another try, 70% of my cabling is in-wall and cannot be changed easily.


We were able to reduce the edgy quality with the Marantz AV8003 prepro, though it might have been at the cost of some resolution.


----------



## vantagesc

In my experience, making/finding an interconnect cable that is accurate or true to the components around it, over a short run, is pretty much trivial provided that the cable has sufficient shielding for your environment. However, there are cable manufacturers that intentionally create wacko electrical parameters and these will indeed change what you hear. For example, I have these 6 foot long interconnects that, when connected from my source to pre-amp, make my sound slightly more fuzzy, warm, and the bass a little more wooly. In an overly bright system, these cables might be praised as smooth and without any harshness by the hifi press. Guess what...the harshness is in the components of your system / recording, not the cable. I now use them as subwoofer cables.


One can certainly use interconnects to tune a system, but it sort of makes one wonder what's wrong with the rest of the system. My 2c.


----------



## [Irishman]

Tim,


I have a quick question that is about speaker selection, because I'm on that path myself. I'm looking for smething about 75% HT use and 25% 2-channel stereo. I've been considering a set of Klispch Icon WF35s. In your experience auditioning speakers, did you ever happen across a pair, and if so, did you give a listen?


Follow-up - If so, thoughts? Impressions?


----------



## [Irishman]




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18762446
> 
> 
> In my experience, making/finding an interconnect cable that is accurate or true to the components around it, over a short run, is pretty much trivial provided that the cable has sufficient shielding for your environment. However, there are cable manufacturers that intentionally create wacko electrical parameters and these will indeed change what you hear. For example, I have these 6 foot long interconnects that, when connected from my source to pre-amp, make my sound slightly more fuzzy, warm, and the bass a little more wooly. In an overly bright system, these cables might be praised as smooth and without any harshness by the hifi press. Guess what...the harshness is in the components of your system / recording, not the cable. I now use them as subwoofer cables.
> 
> 
> One can certainly use interconnects to tune a system, but it sort of makes one wonder what's wrong with the rest of the system. My 2c.



Interesting that you're talking about analog interconnects. What do you think about AudioQuest? I can get a deal on some of their RCAs.


----------



## mrciave




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18762446
> 
> 
> In my experience, making/finding an interconnect cable that is accurate or true to the components around it, over a short run, is pretty much trivial provided that the cable has sufficient shielding for your environment. However, there are cable manufacturers that intentionally create wacko electrical parameters and these will indeed change what you hear. For example, I have these 6 foot long interconnects that, when connected from my source to pre-amp, make my sound slightly more fuzzy, warm, and the bass a little more wooly. In an overly bright system, these cables might be praised as smooth and without any harshness by the hifi press. Guess what...the harshness is in the components of your system / recording, not the cable. I now use them as subwoofer cables.
> 
> 
> One can certainly use interconnects to tune a system, but it sort of makes one wonder what's wrong with the rest of the system. My 2c.



We're probably saying the same thing from a different perspective.


An ideal system is one in which the player plays exactly what's on the disc/media, the connection cables transfer the signal as is, the amplifier is just a gain, and the speakers reproduce the signal in the best way possible.


On serious hi-end components, we should be pretty close to that, and that's actually my ultimate goal, even though I must admit that the 802Ds might not be the ultimate transparent speaker, but so far I like them and they seem to deliver a correct and balanced sound and soundstage.


On lower level systems, we're always pulling a short sleeve, and so system tuning with cables can help in achieving a better balance.


My worry for Tim is that he might have a speaker cable that, selected in the past on a set of components to compensate, for example, a too soft sound, is now making the opposite damage of making the sound edgy and fatiguing.


----------



## mrciave




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18761986
> 
> 
> Andrea -
> 
> 
> Thanks for th suggestion. I remain open minded to all possibilities to improve the sound, though I have done a pretty good run with cables in the past and did not hear the differences that you do. I actually wish that I did, because this would give me another option to fine tune the sound. The other problem is, that even if I were to give speaker cables another try, 70% of my cabling is in-wall and cannot be changed easily.
> 
> 
> We were able to reduce the edgy quality with the Marantz AV8003 prepro, though it might have been at the cost of some resolution.



Hi Tim, my two cents are that it's easy to borrow another speaker cable from a friend (just for the 2ch to start with) and run it straight from your electronics cabinet to the speakers (they're pretty close).


You might even take whatever "black and red" flat cable bought from the local retail store, given it has a sufficient section, and give it a try. If something, it should at least change slightly the sound, for better or worse.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrciave* /forum/post/18763822
> 
> 
> We're probably saying the same thing from a different perspective.
> 
> 
> An ideal system is one in which the player plays exactly what's on the disc/media, the connection cables transfer the signal as is, the amplifier is just a gain, and the speakers reproduce the signal in the best way possible.
> 
> 
> On serious hi-end components, we should be pretty close to that, and that's actually my ultimate goal, even though I must admit that the 802Ds might not be the ultimate transparent speaker, but so far I like them and they seem to deliver a correct and balanced sound and soundstage.
> 
> 
> On lower level systems, we're always pulling a short sleeve, and so system tuning with cables can help in achieving a better balance.
> 
> 
> My worry for Tim is that he might have a speaker cable that, selected in the past on a set of components to compensate, for example, a too soft sound, is now making the opposite damage of making the sound edgy and fatiguing.



It's an interesting idea, using cables to compensate, and I would really be interested in hearing this play out in a system.


However based on what I saw and heard, I would say Tim's system is far from lower level. One combination we tried was the Dynaudio C1 speakers paired with a Classe SSP-800 and Plinius which may not be the ultimate in high end but a far cry from entry level. I do have some speaker cables that are not audio quest so perhaps I will bring them over to Tim's sometime to test this out.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrciave* /forum/post/18763822
> 
> 
> We're probably saying the same thing from a different perspective
> 
> ...
> 
> My worry for Tim is that he might have a speaker cable that, selected in the past on a set of components to compensate, for example, a too soft sound, is now making the opposite damage of making the sound edgy and fatiguing.



Right, I wasn't opining on whether one should want an accurate system or not. What I said is that finding a cable that is relatively true to the original signal is basically trivial. If you have electrostatic speakers, the electrical parameters for your speaker wire are slightly different, but you can find the right wire.


What I will say, is that I don't think this is always the best way of fixing a problem, if one exists, in your system. It could be like fixing a dent in your car by making another dent on the other side so that things are symmetrical. Not everyone sees it that way.


----------



## vantagesc

As for Audioquest, my dealer urged me to try some around the time I was shopping for Usher speakers. They are an AQ dealer. AQ makes a competently performing cable. As for their higher end stuff, I don't see the point in considering a cable that is so costly unless the rest of your system literally has no other room for improvement.


I would read this article and the two followups they did. Draw your own conclusions:
http://www.stereophile.com/cables/804aq/index.html


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *[Irishman]* /forum/post/18763324
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> I have a quick question that is about speaker selection, because I'm on that path myself. I'm looking for smething about 75% HT use and 25% 2-channel stereo. I've been considering a set of Klispch Icon WF35s. In your experience auditioning speakers, did you ever happen across a pair, and if so, did you give a listen?
> 
> 
> Follow-up - If so, thoughts? Impressions?



Sorry Irish, no Klipsch's in my auditioning past. I think that all of the tales of them being a bright and agressive sounding speaker scared me off. I should give them a listen just for reference though.


My vote for HT speakers would be Paradigm. The are very dynamic, they have excellent off-axis reponse, they have excellent center speakers (also with great off-axis reponse), they play loudly withot strain, and they are a generally well-balanced speaker, if a touch forward / bright (not agressive to my ears). I'm only familiar with the Studio and Signature line though (their top models). PSB would be another good alternative for the same reasons.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrciave* /forum/post/18763839
> 
> 
> Hi Tim, my two cents are that it's easy to borrow another speaker cable from a friend (just for the 2ch to start with) and run it straight from your electronics cabinet to the speakers (they're pretty close).
> 
> 
> You might even take whatever "black and red" flat cable bought from the local retail store, given it has a sufficient section, and give it a try. If something, it should at least change slightly the sound, for better or worse.



I have some old, cheap, by-the-foot cable laying around that I used to bypass my in-wall wiring not too long ago for the very reason you suggest.


If there was a difference between the cheap cable and my pretty Audioquest Type 8 cables, sorry, I didn't hear it.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18764238
> 
> 
> Sorry Irish, no Klipsch's in my auditioning past. I think that all of the tales of them being a bright and agressive sounding speaker scared me off. I should give them a listen just for reference though.
> 
> 
> My vote for HT speakers would be Paradigm. The are very dynamic, they have excellent off-axis reponse, they have excellent center speakers (also with great off-axis reponse), they play loudly withot strain, and they are a generally well-balanced speaker, if a touch forward / bright (not agressive to my ears). I'm only familiar with the Studio and Signature line though (their top models). PSB would be another good alternative for the same reasons.



Have you thought about trying the new v3 Sigs?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18764463
> 
> 
> Have you thought about trying the new v3 Sigs?



I just may do that.


----------



## hifisponge

I may have to change my opinion on break-in, as with the Dynaudio C1's now at close to the 200 hour mark, they are actually turning into something to be excited about. In the beginning the tweeter sounded a bit coarse, couple that with a midrange that sounded "shouty" and lean, and the resulting sound was not always pleasant. I'm happy to say that now things have smoothed out and fleshed out, but I hope they continue this trend.


With that said, right from the get go, the bass and the treble detail are incredible. Whoever thinks that a monitor with a 7" driver can't do full range, needs to listen to a set of these. I've had 5 AVS members in my home to listen to the C1's, and they were very complimentary of how good my JL F112 subwoofer sounded. The only problem was, the subwoofer was not even plugged in. No exaggeration. And now that the tweeter has settled in down a bit, I can better appreciate how delicate and quick the Esotar2 tweeter is.


I have a set of Wilson Benesch Discovery's on loan for the week end and the mids sound more organic than the C1, but it is close. Considering that the WB has three 7" drivers to the C1's one 7" driver, it is even more incredible that the C1 would be comparable to the WB in the area of bass.


----------



## Daman S




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18768407
> 
> 
> I may have to change my opinion on break-in, as with the Dynaudio C1's now at close to the 200 hour mark, they are actually turning into something to be excited about. In the beginning the tweeter sounded a bit coarse, couple that with a midrange that sounded "shouty" and lean, and the resulting sound was not always pleasant. I'm happy to say that now things have smoothed out and fleshed out, but I hope they continue this trend.



THAT is great news Tim.. i was really doubtful how much a character of a speaker can change with break-in but i guess one learns new things everyday







Really glad to hear it's working out for the better in your case, hope they will start shining even more with due time. Keep us updated!


----------



## CorboDuze

At last! We are all happy about this good news.


Congratulations on this excellent test.


The machine in the center looks like a Naim Nac 552. Are you also testing a new preamp?


----------



## Audio 1

From what I understand Naim is a very good match with Dynaudio.


Is that a SuperNait integrated amp?


----------



## hifisponge

He guys -


After spending the whole day listening yesterday, I consistently preferred the WBs over the C1s. While the two speakers are close, there is still something off in mids of the C1 that I find bothersome. Its all the same things mentioned before (lean-ish, somewhat edgy, somewhat coarse), just may a bit less than before?


I think the C1's faired much better this last Sat because we listened only to "audiophile" grade recordings. However, when I look at the notes from all of the listening impressions from the guys that stopped by, the WBs tended to be preferred through the midrange and it was a close call on bass / treble.


When the WBs are on, I forget about analyzing the sound. When the C1s are on, I can appreciate the slightly more detailed sound, but it is at the expense of neutrality / realism. I can get the C1's to sound less edgy with EQ, but treble detail is lost in the process.


I'm being wishy washy I know, but I think my brain is wrestling with the fact that I want the C1s to work out.



I'll listen some more tonight.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Audio 1* /forum/post/18774561
> 
> 
> From what I understand Naim is a very good match with Dynaudio.
> 
> 
> Is that a SuperNait integrated amp?



It is the SuperNait. Oddly, I'm not all that impressed with it. It doesn't sound any more analog or less electronic than the Denon and I can't say that stands out in any other area.


----------



## Fanaticalism

I have to say Tim, the WB's look at home in your system.


----------



## hifisponge

Man what a mind f*ck of a day.


I had my mind all made up that the WBs, while very similar in sound to the Dyns were the less edgy / etched of the two and that is just what I heard when I was the one doing the switching between the two speakers. Then I asked a friend to come over to do the switching so I could do some blind ABX testing and everything was turned upside down. On the first song, with "A" being Dyn, "B" being WB, and "X" being Dyn, I had guessed WB, Dyn, WB. On the next song I thought the Dyns were the WBs again. On the last song, I picked the right speakers, but liked the Dyns best. Wow!


So it seems that I've got some mental conditioning that needs to be cleared out. When I know the Dyns are playing, I expect them to sound edgy and I get what I expect. Even now, after my friend has left, as flip between the two speakers I swear that the Dyns sound more edgy. Not that the songs I've chosen sound smooth or sweet on the WBs, just less annoying.


Oh and break-in appears to be in the mind as well. We listened to 5 different songs with the a fresh C1s vs the C1s with 180 hours on them. (There was a defect in the finish of my first pair, so Dyn sent me a replacement pair.)


In a blind listening test, 4 out of 5 times my friend picked the new speakers as sounding better than the broken-in pair, but he admitted that it was so close that he really couldn't tell much of a difference between the two. I didn't listen blind, but I had picked the new pair as sounding better than the broken in pair about half the time.


I give up.


----------



## ddgtr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18777701
> 
> 
> Man what a mind f*ck of a day.




Tim, just hang in there tight. It is possible, just like someone has said before that the pair of C1's you had might have had a bit of a defect of some kind, either from shipping or from the manufacturing process. Especially if you like the new pair...


Let us know...


Cheers


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/18777757
> 
> 
> It is possible, just like someone has said before that the pair of C1's you had might have had a bit of a defect of some kind, either from shipping or from the manufacturing process. Especially if you like the new pair...



This thread is entertaining.







Anything is possible I suppose.


Tim, my man, you just need to take a mental break and not listen to any music in your system for a few days. At some point, those headphones would be a great idea too, just so you forget a bit how the speakers sound and also understand the limits of the recordings. It seems to me that you are, to some extent, listening to poor recordings and purposely listening for what makes them poor. This is a recipe to be driven insane. Wouldn't be surprised if you start hearing the same problem in live sounds at some point.


----------



## hifisponge

I took a quick measurement of the WBs and the C1 at my listening seat. This may help explain why the two speakers sounded so similar:


WB is blue, C1 is pink in the graph below.











From 300Hz up to 20KHz, they are +/- a few dB of each other. Though maybe the bump in the C1 at 2.5KHz or the slightly higher level from 7 to 15KHz are contributing to the slightly more detailed and sometimes etched sound. One thing is certain, by 30Hz, the C1 is 5dB higher in level than the WB which is why it sounded more weighty than the WB. (You would think 5dB would make the C1 sound bloated, but subjectively 5dB at 30Hz is "just noticeable", since our hearing is less sensitive to low bass frequencies.)


----------



## mrciave




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18778138
> 
> 
> I took a quick measurement of the WBs and the C1 at my listening seat. This may help explain why the two speakers sounded so similar:
> 
> 
> WB is blue, C1 is pink in the graph below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 300Hz up to 20KHz, they are +/- a few dB of each other. Though maybe the bump in the C1 at 2.5KHz or the slightly higher level from 7 to 15KHz are contributing to the slightly more detailed and sometimes etched sound. One thing is certain, by 30Hz, the C1 is 5dB higher in level than the WB which is why it sounded more weighty than the WB. (You would think 5dB would make the C1 sound bloated, but subjectively 5dB at 30Hz is "just noticeable", since our hearing is less sensitive to low bass frequencies.)



I would be interested in checking how much of the resonance/anti-resonance in the low-freq response is due to speaker position. The fact that peaks and dips are at the same frequencies means room effect, not speaker effect.


Are these plots for the left/right speaker separately, or both in mono?


Would be great if you could do the same test, but swapping positions of the speakers (C1s on the left, WBs on the right).


I'd like to do these tests in my room as well, but keeping the same speakers and moving them around. But I should buy some equipment first


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrciave* /forum/post/18780514
> 
> 
> I would be interested in checking how much of the resonance/anti-resonance in the low-freq response is due to speaker position. The fact that peaks and dips are at the same frequencies means room effect, not speaker effect.



Most certainly. The plot below 300Hz in ANY room will be dominated by the room, speaker position and listening position.



> Quote:
> Are these plots for the left/right speaker separately, or both in mono?



This was just a sample measurement of the speakers on the right.



> Quote:
> Would be great if you could do the same test, but swapping positions of the speakers (C1s on the left, WBs on the right).



When I place the WB where the Dyn is, the peak at 150Hz increases to the point that it becomes distractingly "thumpy". When I owned the WBs they were in that position due to placement limitations and it was manditory that I use EQ to knock down that peak to get good sound. It is remarkable though don't you think that the C1, with just a single 7" driver, is matching the WB (with 3 7" drivers) in bass reach.



> Quote:
> I'd like to do these tests in my room as well, but keeping the same speakers and moving them around. But I should buy some equipment first



For just about $250 you can put a very competent measurement system together.


Below is everything you need to get up and running with Room EQ Wizard. Keep in mind, this is not a plug and play program and it will take some effort and time to learn how to use it. If you want plug-n-play, buy the "XTZ Room Analyzer". http://www.xtz.se/uk/products/mearur.../room-analyzer 


1. Download Room EQ Wizard for free.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/ 


2. Buy this calibrated microphone (get the "Basic +" model):

http://cross-spectrum.com/measuremen...behringer.html 


3. Buy this microphone preamp:

http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Mobile.../dp/B0000TP57E 


4. Get a mic stand, with a telescoping arm, like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Stage-Spotligh...7372345&sr=1-1 


5. Buy a 30 - 50 foot XLR mic cable:

http://www.amazon.com/NADY-XC-50-XLR...7372458&sr=1-5 


6. Get an RCA to 1/4 inch phono cable (this one is used to send the test signal to your sound system):

http://www.amazon.com/HOSA-CPR204-Du...7372678&sr=1-6 


Total investment: around $250 for very competent sound analysis tool. The Room EQ Wizard software is phenomenal, and there is a large support group on http://www.hometheatershack.com/ 


To buy the XTZ Room Analyzer, you need to order it directly from XTZ in Sweden by following these directions:


International orders

You can order by sending the info below in an email to: [email protected] 


name

address

country

phone number

and the products you wish to purchase


They will email you the total cost (including shipping) and explain how payment is made. (They are legit.)


----------



## Tmueller




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18774649
> 
> 
> It is the SuperNait. Oddly, I'm not all that impressed with it. It doesn't sound any more analog or less electronic than the Denon and I can't say that stands out in any other area.



With what source? (Are you using the SuperNait DAC?)


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tmueller* /forum/post/18781440
> 
> 
> With what source? (Are you using the SuperNait DAC?)



Hi Tyler -


Using a Mac Mini as source connected to SuperNait via toslink optical out.


Also tried using the Naim as an amp only with preout from Denon to analog in on Nait.


----------



## CorboDuze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18777701
> 
> 
> Man what a mind f*ck of a day.
> 
> 
> I had my mind all made up that the WBs, while very similar in sound to the Dyns were the less edgy / etched of the two and that is just what I heard when I was the one doing the switching between the two speakers. Then I asked a friend to come over to do the switching so I could do some blind ABX testing and everything was turned upside down. On the first song, with "A" being Dyn, "B" being WB, and "X" being Dyn, I had guessed WB, Dyn, WB. On the next song I thought the Dyns were the WBs again. On the last song, I picked the right speakers, but liked the Dyns best. Wow!
> 
> 
> So it seems that I've got some mental conditioning that needs to be cleared out. When I know the Dyns are playing, I expect them to sound edgy and I get what I expect. Even now, after my friend has left, as flip between the two speakers I swear that the Dyns sound more edgy. Not that the songs I've chosen sound smooth or sweet on the WBs, just less annoying.
> 
> 
> Oh and break-in appears to be in the mind as well. We listened to 5 different songs with the a fresh C1s vs the C1s with 180 hours on them. (There was a defect in the finish of my first pair, so Dyn sent me a replacement pair.)
> 
> 
> In a blind listening test, 4 out of 5 times my friend picked the new speakers as sounding better than the broken-in pair, but he admitted that it was so close that he really couldn't tell much of a difference between the two. I didn't listen blind, but I had picked the new pair as sounding better than the broken in pair about half the time.
> 
> 
> I give up.



Conclusion of the blind test: C1 have same level of sound quality as WB for a 30% lower price tag. So...You have reached your goal a second time!


Ouch!


Of course such outcome is completely unacceptable, as this would mean this thread should now stop.


So I suggest to simply discard this blind test and all its logical consequences.

After all, blind tests correspond to unrealistic conditions. In real life, nobody ever listens to his own system without knowing what speakers are playing.

In the end, who cares about blind test?


Please, let's not get distracted by such unnecessary cognitive dissonance.


----------



## iove

Hey Tim,


Have you considered replacing the caps in the crossovers to smooth out the harshness. Over on the whathifi forums there's quite a few users there that has replaced the caps in the Monitor Audio RS8s to smooth out the harshness. The guy I sold my RS8 to swears by this mod...

http://community.whathifi.com/forums...howThread.aspx 


I know this is an extreme example that will void your warranty but I thought I'd throw this one out there...


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iove* /forum/post/18785717
> 
> 
> Hey Tim,
> 
> 
> Have you considered replacing the caps in the crossovers to smooth out the harshness. Over on the whathifi forums there's quite a few users there that has replaced the caps in the Monitor Audio RS8s to smooth out the harshness. The guy I sold my RS8 to swears by this mod...
> 
> http://community.whathifi.com/forums...howThread.aspx
> 
> 
> I know this is an extreme example that will void your warranty but I thought I'd throw this one out there...



Interesting idea, though I would like to keep the warranty intact on the speakers, so I'll explore other avenues. Like the NAD M15HD prepro and amp. I owned the original m15 and I remember it having a smoother (not soft), rounder quality, similar to the Marantz we tried a couple of Saturdays ago, but without the warmth.


I have to say that I don't think the speakers are distorting the signal in any way, rather they are just more detailed and revealing, which can make a munber of commercial recordings sound a wee bit unpleasant.


----------



## weird 23

Marantz just is going to release the AV8003 replacement in the fall, the av7005. Thought you might be interested.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18786672
> 
> 
> Marantz just is going to release the AV8003 replacement in the fall, the av7005. Thought you might be interested.



Thanks weirdo!










I think I'm going to give the NAD M15HD a shot. It has all the functionality I want and I like the modular "PC Card" design for future revisions.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18786715
> 
> 
> Thanks weirdo!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I'm going to give the NAD M15HD a shot. It has all the functionality I want and I like the modular "PC Card" design for future revisions.



I'm going to wait and at least listen to the new Marantz, it seems to have everything that the 8003 was missing. I'm a little leery of anything beyond two channel with NAD, I've read about lots of problems. The NAD dealer in my area has dropped them due to too many problems and replaced them with Arcam. I don't know if things have been fixed with newer models as this was about a year ago. What kind of amp do think would match well with the Marantz and Paradigm Studio speakers? When are you thinking of trying out the NAD?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18787266
> 
> 
> I'm going to wait and at least listen to the new Marantz, it seems to have everything that the 8003 was missing. I'm a little leery of anything beyond two channel with NAD, I've read about lots of problems. The NAD dealer in my area has dropped them due to too many problems and replaced them with Arcam. I don't know if things have been fixed with newer models as this was about a year ago. What kind of amp do think would match well with the Marantz and Paradigm Studio speakers? When are you thinking of trying out the NAD?



Do you have a link on features / specs on the new Marantz?


Things have actually gotten a lot better with NAD. The last I read in the owners thread, their weren't any critical issues with the M15HD.


With that said, there seems to be problems with the majority of the current prepros / AVRs. I don't know the details, but both the Marantz and Arcam threads have their fair share of complaints. You just can' get away from it with as fast as things move in the electronics industry. Firmware updates are the norm for these under-tested, rushed to market components.


I hope to place my order for the M15HD the end of the month or mid next. So I should have it within a month or so.


You are asking the wrong guy about amps. I just haven't heard much differences between them (I reserve the right to change my mind on this without prior notice







). So I typically buy the amp that matches the prepro, given it has the real-world wattage I need, which is usually the case.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18787377
> 
> 
> Do you have a link on features / specs on the new Marantz?
> 
> 
> Things have actually gotten a lot better with NAD. The last I read in the owners thread, their weren't any critical issues with the M15HD.
> 
> 
> With that said, there seems to be problems with the majority of the current prepros / AVRs. I don't know the details, but both the Marantz and Arcam threads have their fair share of complaints. You just can' get away from it with as fast as things move in the electronics industry. Firmware updates are the norm for these under-tested, rushed to market components.
> 
> 
> I hope to place my order for the M15HD the end of the month or mid next. So I should have it within a month or so.
> 
> 
> You are asking the wrong guy about amps. I just haven't heard much differences between them (I reserve the right to change my mind on this without prior notice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). So I typically buy the amp that matches the prepro, given it has the real-world wattage I need, which is usually the case.



I read the Industry Insider blog on What Hi-FI.com. What are you doing with your Denon?


----------



## moonhawk

Here you go, Tim.. As discussed in the Classe thread.


(I built the house, too...)


----------



## hifisponge

Very nice MoonHawk! Great choice of drivers and impeccable craftsmanship on the cabinets.


Did you build the cabinets yourself?


Who designed the cross-over?


I looked into having some DIY guys build me some speakers earlier this year. I may have to revisit that option.


----------



## moonhawk

Yes, I built the cabinets--spread out over about 5 years on and off in my downstairs shop. The kits were from Northcreek Music, designed by George Short. He no longer sells kits, unfortunately.


There are a few goofs in the cabinets that I cleverly do not show in the photos, but they sound great. Of course, I've had no way to compare them to the likes of what you're used to.


I'll look for a link to Northcreek, he might still have a page archived for these speakers.


----------



## moonhawk

Apparently I misspoke and George is selling Kits again. You may enjoy browsing his site. My model, the vision signature, is no longer available but I did find some reference to it.

http://northcreekmusic.com/AboutNort...nersBackground 

http://northcreekmusic.com/


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18787743
> 
> 
> Yes, I built the cabinets--spread out over about 5 years on and off in my downstairs shop. The kits were from Northcreek Music, designed by George Short. He no longer sells kits, unfortunately.
> 
> 
> There are a few goofs in the cabinets that I cleverly do not show in the photos, but they sound great. Of course, I've had no way to compare them to the likes of what you're used to.
> 
> 
> I'll look for a link to Northcreek, he might still have a page archived for these speakers.



I wouldn't be so quick to discount the quality of sound of you're speakers compared to the big name speakers I've owned. Those Scan Speak drivers are used in some of the most expensive speakers in the world. So as long as the designer got the cross over right, and built a nice sturdy, low diffraction box of the proper dimensions around them, there is no reason why they shouldn't compete with the best out there.


----------



## moonhawk

Well, I'm not discounting them--just don't have a point of reference. They really do sound good. Nice and natural, sweet with lots of detail but no harshness or overly forward sound. Now if I can only get my own pre-pro thing figured out.


Reading the part about the pre-pro comparisons at your house earlier this month--NO SPOILERS PLEASE!!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18788159
> 
> 
> Well, I'm not discounting them--just don't have a point of reference. They really do sound good. Nice and natural, sweet with lots of detail but no harshness or overly forward sound. Now if I can only get my own pre-pro thing figured out.
> 
> 
> Reading the part about the pre-pro comparisons at your house earlier this month--NO SPOILERS PLEASE!!



See, you've already got me beat. I've currently got great detail / clarity, imaging, and frequency extension, but my system currently lacks sweetness / naturalness.


Let me know once you've read the the shootout. I have some comments I'd like to add.


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18788206
> 
> 
> See, you've already got me beat. I've currently got great detail / clarity, imaging, and frequency extension, but my system currently lacks sweetness / naturalness.
> 
> 
> Let me know once you've read the the shootout. I have some comments I'd like to add.



Go ahead with your comments, I've read through the shootout.


BTW, two thoughts come to mind--What player are you using besides the mac mini--Are you using any particular disc player?


Also, have you read the Jim Smith book "Get Better Sound"? AKA the best $50 you'll ever spend in audio.


To him it's all about the room, speaker placement, etc. I'm quite sure you are very familiar with the concept, and I've read your acoustic cloud thread, but that book goes into so many little details, there may be just one stupid little thing you've overlooked or forgotten. Speaker toe-in and spread can change tone. Again I'm sure you know this, but then you've probably forgotten more stuff than I'll ever learn.


Anyway, those extra comments?....


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18788269
> 
> 
> Go ahead with your comments, I've read through the shootout.
> 
> 
> BTW, two thoughts come to mind--What player are you using besides the mac mini--Are you using any particular disc player?
> 
> 
> Also, have you read the Jim Smith book "Get Better Sound"? AKA the best $50 you'll ever spend in audio.
> 
> 
> To him it's all about the room, speaker placement, etc. I'm quite sure you are very familiar with the concept, and I've read your acoustic cloud thread, but that book goes into so many little details, there may be just one stupid little thing you've overlooked or forgotten. Speaker toe-in and spread can change tone. Again I'm sure you know this, but then you've probably forgotten more stuff than I'll ever learn.
> 
> 
> Anyway, those extra comments?....



You're right, it is easy to get so deep into the technical stuff that it easy to forget the basics at times. They usually pop up through the course of troubleshooting though. I have played with tow a bit, but maybe I'll try a bit more.


My Mac Mini is my main source (used as a digital transport only), though I have some moderately priced disc players at my disposal (a denon DBP-2010 and an Sony BD player). I achieved great results with the Mini as a transport when paired with the Classe (used as the DAC). Why do you ask? Do you have a suggestion?


About the Classe, I just wanted to reiterate that while the SSP-800 didn't give me the smoothness I was after, I still believe that it probably the top SSP currently available. If you are happy with your speakers, which it seems you are, it will likely give you a step up in detail and dimension without adding digital grit / grain.


I have a very revealing set of speakers right now that I want to tame a bit, so I'm looking for something more on the warm side of neutral than the Classe provides.


----------



## mrciave




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18780795
> 
> 
> 
> For just about $250 you can put a very competent measurement system together.
> 
> 
> Below is everything you need to get up and running with Room EQ Wizard.
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the HOWTO guide! I'll have to figure out how to source the stuff or equivalent in Italy, but the concept is familiar to me (used to work on vibration analysis, measuring responses with shakers and accelerometers).


----------



## Roger Dressler

Hi Tim,


A thought: On of the variables of course is the music. We can probably all agree that no recording is perfect in every respect, yet we listen to them because we like the tunes.


Might be useful to compile a CD full of preferred recordings--not "torture test" material, but cuts that are very representative of the material you like to listen to. Folks can help by reporting their impressions of those very same recordings on their systems, thereby hopefully forming a consensus on what characteristics are attributable to the source rather than the gear.


Or, maybe folks can offer: best recording for smooth female vocals; best for articulate bass; best for smooth, natural bass extension; etc. Whatever categories/attributes you care to define.


Without a clear hook to known source characteristics, we could be in a sort of glare/etch "circle of confusion" just as Olive describes for frequency response.


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18788376
> 
> 
> You're right, it is easy to get so deep into the technical stuff that it easy to forget the basics at times. They usually pop up through the course of troubleshooting though. I have played with tow a bit, but maybe I'll try a bit more.
> 
> 
> My Mac Mini is my main source (used as a digital transport only), though I have some moderately priced disc players at my disposal (a denon DBP-2010 and an Sony BD player). I achieved great results with the Mini as a transport when paired with the Classe (used as the DAC). Why do you ask? Do you have a suggestion?
> 
> 
> About the Classe, I just wanted to reiterate that while the SSP-800 didn't give me the smoothness I was after, I still believe that it probably the top SSP currently available. If you are happy with your speakers, which it seems you are, it will likely give you a step up in detail and dimension without adding digital grit / grain.
> 
> 
> I have a very revealing set of speakers right now that I want to tame a bit, so I'm looking for something more on the warm side of neutral than the Classe provides.



Well, I strongly recommend the book to anyone--lots of great little tips.


I only asked about the player as I'm checking into what the best transport only models are in case I go with the Classe SSP800.


Best of luck with your quest.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/18789472
> 
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> 
> A thought: One of the variables of course is the music. We can probably all agree that no recording is perfect in every respect, yet we listen to them because we like the tunes.
> 
> 
> Might be useful to compile a CD full of preferred recordings--not "torture test" material, but cuts that are very representative of the material you like to listen to. Folks can help by reporting their impressions of those very same recordings on their systems, thereby hopefully forming a consensus on what characteristics are attributable to the source rather than the gear.
> 
> 
> Or, maybe folks can offer: best recording for smooth female vocals; best for articulate bass; best for smooth, natural bass extension; etc. Whatever categories/attributes you care to define.
> 
> 
> Without a clear hook to known source characteristics, we could be in a sort of glare/etch "circle of confusion" just as Olive describes for frequency response.



Hi Roger -


Thanks for stopping in. I always respect and value your advice.


I'm open to compiling a list of my favorite songs, but this sharp / granular quality is prevelant on the majority of my music and movie collection, given the song / soundtrack has content that falls into the frequency range that aggrivates it. The problem falls right in the upper midrange / treble, at the top of voice, especially with fricatives (not just sibilance) on higher pitched vocals, like female vocals. Violins, alto sax, and trumpet also tend to have too much bite / sharpness. My point: does it really matter if it is the recording if most of what listen to sounds unpleasant at one point or another?


When I started noticing this problem, I was just going through my favorite songs on my music server not listening for it. But the more I listened, I noticed a pattern emerging-- an overly sharp / etched character to many of the songs. So I created a torture test playlist to try to make it easier to spot a difference with different components in the chain. After a while, I stopped using that torture test playlist because these songs tended to sound bad on every system I tried, just to varying degrees. So I went back to just listening to music randomly to see how often the problem would pop up. I heard it more than I liked to, so I brought my old Wilson Benesch speakers back into the mix (on loan from the dealer). Now that my awareness has been heightened to the problem, I hear it on the WB speakers too, but it seems to be less annoying.


Based on this, my current theory is that the Dyns are higher resolution and a bit brighter than the WBs, which tends to highlight the sharp parts of many recordings. I've also become fixated on the problem, which tends to make it worse than it probably is.


I still need to take some advice offered earlier, which is to invest in a pair of quality headphones to use as a reference.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18789637
> 
> 
> Well, I strongly recommend the book to anyone--lots of great little tips.
> 
> 
> I only asked about the player as I'm checking into what the best transport only models are in case I go with the Classe SSP800.
> 
> 
> Best of luck with your quest.



What does the book say about the effect of electronic components (pre, amp, player) on the final sound? Does it offer advice for selecting them, or is the book more of a set-up guide?


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18790518
> 
> 
> The problem falls right in the upper midrange / treble, at the top of voice, especially with fricatives (not just sibilance) on higher pitched vocals, like female vocals. Violins, alto sax, and trumpet also tend to have too much bite / sharpness. My point: does it really matter if it is the recording if most of what listen to sounds unpleasant at one point or another?
> 
> 
> When I started noticing this problem, I was just going through my favorite songs on my music server not listening for it. But the more I listened, I noticed a pattern emerging-- an overly sharp / etched character to many of the songs.



Ahh, I see the issue is more pervasive than I first thought.


Let me ask something else--have you found any particular recordings, of female vocals, that stand out as being totally or sufficiently devoid of these sonic issues? I'm not heading to a conclusion that blames the recordings, but it might help in seeing what triggers it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/18790945
> 
> 
> Ahh, I see the issue is more pervasive than I first thought.
> 
> 
> Let me ask something else--have you found any particular recordings, of female vocals, that stand out as being totally or sufficiently devoid of these sonic issues? I'm not heading to a conclusion that blames the recordings, but it might help in seeing what triggers it.



Hmm, well, maybe "Temptation" by Dianna Krall? From this album:

http://www.amazon.com/Girl-Other-Roo...804283&sr=1-13 


But "Almost Blue" from the same album does exhibit the problem (there may be others, i haven't checked).


I'll see if I can dig up any other songs that sound fine.


I've played around with the simple EQ in iTunes and find that reducing the 2KHz and 4KHz sliders reduces the effect somewhat, but this problem appears to be a textural thing in addition to what might be a slight FR imbalance. Vocals in general tend to sound a bit gritty / coarse, even some male vocals. Its actually easier to pick out the problem on movies where the vocals aren't masked by music.


I'm almost embarrassed to admit this, but now I'm even hearing the problem occassionally in real life when people are speaking to me. So it may only be more pervasive because I've become hypersensitve to it. It is pretty obvious that I need to take a break to see if I can get my brain to reset, but this is tough to do when my wife and I must use the speakers when watching TV.


For the sake of full disclosure, I ran into this same problem before I settled on the WB / Classe system. It started with the Focals (grain and sharpness), then again with the Monitor Audios (mostly grain, some sharpness), and again with the Revels (mostly grain, but even less sharpness) than with the MAs.


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18790528
> 
> 
> What does the book say about the effect of electronic components (pre, amp, player) on the final sound? Does it offer advice for selecting them, or is the book more of a set-up guide?



Jim Smith does believe there is an effect on the sound by different components, but IIRC he says speakers--and placement-- and room have the biggest influence on the sound of a system.


He says once the speakers and room are optimized, it is easier to discern the differences in electronics, which makes a certain amount of sense.


Headphones sound like a good idea too, if all you want to do is compare electronics. If you're talking $70 for headphones and $40-50 for the book, I'd say those are both good investments considering the kind of cash you've been burning through.


----------



## dgbarar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18791117
> 
> 
> 
> I'm almost embarrassed to admit this, but now I'm even hearing the problem occassionally in real life when people are speaking to me. So it may only be more pervasive because I've become hypersensitve to it. It is pretty obvious that I need to take a break to see if I can get my brain to reset, but this is tough to do when my wife and I must use the speakers when watching TV.



Hi Tim:


After reading this thread I am beginning to wonder if what you hear is something special to your ears alone that the vast majority of us are unable to detect. Have you ever shared your listening experience with another person at the same time. Do they hear the same thing that troubles you?


Don


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mpmct* /forum/post/18722674
> 
> 
> if you don't already own a similar pair, you could drop $70 on, for example
> 
> these, which measure dead-flat ( designed for pro audio geeks ):
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...H7R89TN4XSCJQG
> 
> 
> Plug them into an iPod/iTouch/iPhone ( which also measure almost entirely distortion free,
> 
> way more so than a Classe or any other power amp ):
> 
> http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/foster/index.htm
> 
> 
> .. and listen for sibilance and that other bad stuff.
> 
> 
> At least you'll have a reference-grade system for very short money
> 
> that: removes speaker/room interaction, avoids hi-end small-shop vagaries
> 
> and/or weak implementations, and most importantly
> 
> leaves passive loudspeaker x-over distortion out of the equation.



Ordered the headphones today.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18790518
> 
> 
> My point: does it really matter if it is the recording if most of what listen to sounds unpleasant at one point or another?



Your point is probably that you should be able to assemble a system that sounds good. 100% agreed. However, the recordings do matter, because if most of your recordings are bad, then you are wasting your time with high-resolution speakers because a Marantz this or that might not get you all the way there.



> Quote:
> I've also become fixated on the problem, which tends to make it worse than it probably is.



I think this is what it is, combined with high-resolution speakers and bad recordings. As I mentioned to you before, even though the Orions are not entirely devoid of sibilance, that kind of thing used to bother the heck out of me. Your brain needs to reset.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dgbarar* /forum/post/18791331
> 
> 
> Hi Tim:
> 
> 
> After reading this thread I am beginning to wonder if what you hear is something special to your ears alone that the vast majority of us are unable to detect. Have you ever shared your listening experience with another person at the same time. Do they hear the same thing that troubles you?
> 
> 
> Don



I was ready to chalk it up to this (and I still may), but I've had 5 AVS members over to my home and they all heard it to some degree, and for most it was in the territory of being unpleasant. Though the listening session was done mainly with recordings that tend to be on the sharp grainy side to begin with.


About a week later, one of the guys came over again (who also tends to be sensitive to the same sorts of audio issues) and he liked the sound more the second time because the songs we listened to weren't picked to highlight the problem, but he could still hear it.


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18791380
> 
> 
> Ordered the headphones today.



http://getbettersound.com/banner_ent...FQpJagodT3EhRQ 


Currently on sale for $29.70!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18791402
> 
> 
> I think this is what it is, combined with high-resolution speakers and bad recordings. As I mentioned to you before, even though the Orions are not entirely devoid of sibilance, that kind of thing used to bother the heck out of me. *Your brain needs to reset.*



Maybe this hat will help?



















In all seriousness, yes, I think it is a compound problem that involves all of the things you list and addressing just one of them is not going to fix it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18791420
> 
> http://getbettersound.com/banner_ent...FQpJagodT3EhRQ
> 
> 
> Currently on sale for $29.70!



Yeah I saw that. The book is next up.


----------



## vantagesc

A note to Tim and mpmct regarding the Shure E2c, courtesy of SL:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm 



> Quote:
> SHURE E2c Earphones
> 
> 
> In my ongoing investigation of reference quality transducers I came across the Shure E2c earphones. The box and documentation that I received from www.samedaymusic.com was labeled E2. Upon questioning Shure Inc. wrote to me: "There is no difference between the E2 and the E2C earphones. The actual product is exactly the same only the packaging is different. The E2's are packaged more towards musician who use in ear monitors and the E2C's are packaged for all audio users."
> 
> *November 2008 update:*
> _The E2 has been discontinued but this model is still sold as the SCL2 in-ear monitor for musicians. The whole E-line has been replaced with a new line where each model has individual "sonic signatures" to suit different tastes. That is not what I would want to hear._



I cannot verify how colored or not the E2c's are, especially because everyone may require slightly different equalization, but the previous E2c is now sold as these:
http://www.amazon.com/Shure-Isolatin.../dp/B000TV6X74


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18791460
> 
> 
> A note to Tim and mpmct regarding the Shure E2c, courtesy of SL:
> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot verify how colored or not the E2c's are, especially because everyone may require slightly different equalization, but the previous E2c is now sold as these:
> http://www.amazon.com/Shure-Isolatin.../dp/B000TV6X74



Yeah, I read that section on the Linkwitz site before placing my order. Although the E2c has been discontinued, there appear to be some still available.


I bought these:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...H7R89TN4XSCJQG


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/18790945
> 
> 
> Ahh, I see the issue is more pervasive than I first thought.
> 
> 
> Let me ask something else--have you found any particular recordings, of female vocals, that stand out as being totally or sufficiently devoid of these sonic issues? I'm not heading to a conclusion that blames the recordings, but it might help in seeing what triggers it.



Roger -


Do you see anything in this FR graph that would point to the problem?











The pink is the Dyn and the blue is the WB. Maybe the somehwat elevated response between 1KHz and 3KHz?


FWIW, Audyssey doesn't subjectively fix it.


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18791593
> 
> 
> Roger -
> 
> 
> Do you see anything in this FR graph that would point to the problem?



No. And even the B&Ws, which presumably have the "2.5 kHz dip" (for reasons unknown to me) apparently did not help the cause either.


I'm afraid if I follow this thread too much I'll begin hearing it, too.










Remember I mentioned my left ear giving me a "coding artifact problem" from speakers that were not even playing sound (left surr)? It has finally gone away--after almost 6 months. Do you drink coffee? Take antihistamines? Sometimes things like that add to tinnitus--although it would not have affected your guests' hearing.


----------



## Selvos

I've noticed that you had both Monitor Audio gold/platinum and Paradigm studios. I realize the platinum series is a step above the studios, but I'm wondering how the gold compared to the paradigm studios. I've looking at monitor audio for awhile now and I need a good all around speaker.


I listen to a very wide array of music from extremely soft to really heavy. But I also need something that will blow me away in movies.

Any suggestions? I own Energy reference connoisseurs now, but they seem a bit too warm/laid back for me. Especialy on metal music.

Also have you heard the new RX series from Monitor? Impressions?

Thanks!


----------



## vantagesc

FR, even if at the listening position, doesn't seem tell the whole story. Direct vs. reflected sound, linear and non-linear distortions, small dips/peaks that are not in your graph, etc. Just throwing out ideas.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/18791695
> 
> 
> ...and even the B&Ws, which presumably have the "2.5 kHz dip" (for reasons unknown to me) apparently did not help the cause either.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> although it would not have affected your guests' hearing.



Roger,

I don't really follow B&W, but try to Google "BBC Dip". That could be the reason for the 2.5 khz dip. Or it's a cross-over related issue. As for the guests, I suspect it was poor recordings + strong suggestion.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/18791695
> 
> 
> No. And even the B&Ws, which presumably have the "2.5 kHz dip" (for reasons unknown to me) apparently did not help the cause either.



Hmm, yes good point about the B&Ws. Though like I said, I think this is a compound problem, so the elevated presence region in the Dyns may be contributing the the "grain", but not the "etch".



> Quote:
> I'm afraid if I follow this thread too much I'll begin hearing it, too.



Yes, probably good to get off this train before it leaves the station.











> Quote:
> Remember I mentioned my left ear giving me a "coding artifact problem" from speakers that were not even playing sound (left surr)? It has finally gone away--after almost 6 months. Do you drink coffee? Take antihistamines? Sometimes things like that add to tinnitus--although it would not have affected your guests' hearing.



I do remember that hearing problem you told me about. I haven't touched much on it in this thread, but I do have mild tinnitus, I do drink coffee and used to smoke until I quit about three months ago. Still chewing nicotine gum on occassion though. Maybe once I fully kick the habit, things will get better.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Selvos* /forum/post/18791711
> 
> 
> I've noticed that you had both Monitor Audio gold/platinum and Paradigm studios. I realize the platinum series is a step above the studios, but I'm wondering how the gold compared to the paradigm studios. I've looking at monitor audio for awhile now and I need a good all around speaker.
> 
> 
> I listen to a very wide array of music from extremely soft to really heavy. But I also need something that will blow me away in movies.
> 
> Any suggestions? I own Energy reference connoisseurs now, but they seem a bit too warm/laid back for me. Especialy on metal music.
> 
> Also have you heard the new RX series from Monitor? Impressions?
> 
> Thanks!



The Paradigm Signatures were a better all around speaker to my ears than the MA GS, but the GS's beat them in clarity and midrange "transparency". Almost electrostatic in their presentation. The downside to the GS is somewhat exaggerated sibilance and a somewhat edgy sound at times. The Paradigms are forward, but had no harsh qualities. Neither the Paradigm or the MA GS speakers are polite or laid back, so they should be in the ballpark of what you are after. Both are great for movies.


I did a brief listen to the RX8 at the local dealer, and they are not as refined as the GS series, and they lacked that special something that separates good speakers from great ones.


----------



## Selvos




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18791892
> 
> 
> The Paradigm Signatures were a better all around speaker to my ears than the MA GS, but the GS's beat them in clarity and midrange "transparency". Almost electrostatic in their presentation. The downside to the GS is somewhat exaggerated sibilance and a somewhat edgy sound at times. The Paradigms are forward, but had no harsh qualities. Neither the Paradigm or the MA GS speakers are polite or laid back, so they should be in the ballpark of what you are after. Both are great for movies.
> 
> 
> I did a brief listen to the RX8 at the local dealer, and they are not as refined as the GS series, and they lacked that special something that separates good speakers from great ones.



Oops! I realized that it was the Signature series that you owned and not the studios. I'm assuming that the studios are more in line with the Gold series...


Btw I heard the RX8s a couple weeks ago and found them to be quite the improvement over the RS...but I wasn't able to demo them with the Gold's. Apparently they have the same tweeter as the gold...but they're at 4 ohms, I thought that was a bit of a step back. All I have right now is an avr for power. I suppose it wouldn't be much of a problem with a good amp.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Selvos* /forum/post/18791940
> 
> 
> Oops! I realized that it was the Signature series that you owned and not the studios. I'm assuming that the studios are more in line with the Gold series...
> 
> 
> Btw I heard the RX8s a couple weeks ago and found them to be quite the improvement over the RS...but I wasn't able to demo them with the Gold's. Apparently they have the same tweeter as the gold...but they're at 4 ohms, I thought that was a bit of a step back. All I have right now is an avr for power. I suppose it wouldn't be much of a problem with a good amp.



I think the MA GS and Paradigm Studios are both worthy contenders for what you are looking for. Certainly worth a listen. Another option to consider would be Revel's Concerta line.


Many speakers that claim to be 4Ohm are only that impedance for a small part of their range, so their is a good chance that you'll be fine powering them with a good quality AVR, you just may not get the full dynamic or loudness capability out of them. You'll know if you have enough power because your AVR will go into protection (shut down) if it can't give the speakers the juice they need, in which case a higher-power amp is in order. Just be careful with the volume level until then. Crossing over to a sub will also relieve the AVR of much of the strain.


----------



## mpmct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18791570
> 
> 
> Yeah, I read that section on the Linkwitz site before placing my order. Although the E2c has been discontinued, there appear to be some still available.
> 
> 
> I bought these:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...H7R89TN4XSCJQG



Those are the ones. BTW, the 'c' part of the product name just

demarcated: "clear" -- the same model was produced in black.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mpmct* /forum/post/18796181
> 
> 
> Those are the ones. BTW, the 'c' part of the product name just
> 
> demarcated: "clear" -- the same model was produced in black.



Have yours broken yet? The major gripe on these seems to be the wire splitting near the ear.


----------



## mpmct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18796206
> 
> 
> Have yours broken yet? The major gripe on these seems to be the wire splitting near the ear.



No issues with mine, but I don't use them a lot --

although they're two or three years old IIRC.


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18790528
> 
> 
> What does the book say about the effect of electronic components (pre, amp, player) on the final sound? Does it offer advice for selecting them, or is the book more of a set-up guide?



Tim--Came across this from Jim Smith's latest newsletter and was reminded of your previous question.


*"No really bad products - only bad optimization of them*


We see comments on message boards about real clunkers. But I never see them.


As I've voiced various readers' systems, I've come across a huge variety of components. Never had a problem making their systems play the room and provide deep musical enjoyment. Never replaced - or recommended replacing - one single component.


So does that mean that all components are created equal?


Nope. It means that given half of a chance, a lot of so-called clunkers aren't."


----------



## Sunya

I think you should give a try to the Focus 140 as they are more laid back than the C1's. And looking at the Stereophile off axis measurements the Focus 140 has a more even, smooth response than the C1.


C1










Focus 140
http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/506dynaudio/


----------



## hifisponge

Moonhawk -


I don't think my Denon is a clunker, but I have tried virtually everything I can think of to troubleshoot the sound I've been getting over the past few months, and I have yet to solve the problem. I've been at this hobby for the better part of 15 years, and I read just about everything I can find regarding the pursuit of good sound, so I'm certainly not green at it.


Is there some uncommon wisdom from Jim's book that you can share that would help convince me to buy it?


----------



## moonhawk

No--to be honest it's been awhile since I've read it. And, many of his solutions are not practical for all people, often due to the fact that we can't all have a dedicated and perfectly proportioned room, with excellent treatment.


His approach involves many, many subtle tweaks, and a very methodical method of optimizing speaker placement which involves marking locations on the floor with tape and making very small incremental adjustments. Same with locating the main listening seat.


Also things like keeping the rack and TV out from between the speakers, which I know you've already done, but which you can see from my pics I have not.


The thing is, you seem to be near the end of your rope, and there are so many, many little things in there that there may be that one little nugget that works for you.


He goes into phase and polarity a lot, and says many components are not properly polarized, and how to test for that. I just think it's worth a shot for you, considering the price and your situation.


There's always something anyone can learn from anyone else.


Hope this helps.


----------



## hifisponge

Yes, I agree that there is always something more to be learned, and I appreciate the book recommendation, I'm just trying to get an idea if the book is more than audio set-up 101, as I'm past that point.


----------



## moonhawk

I would say definitely more than 101


Jim also will come to your home and optimize your setup for you if you wish.


Not cheap, of course. Have you checked out his website?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18797752
> 
> 
> I would say definitely more than 101
> 
> 
> Jim also will come to your home and optimize your setup for you if you wish.
> 
> 
> Not cheap, of course. Have you checked out his website?



I skimmed, but most of what I read were just informational teasers.


Let me ask you this. Is there anything from his book that you have done with your system that impressed you?


----------



## moonhawk

Well, being much more of a novice than you, yes. just working to get my speaker, seating placement right made a big difference. That is his main thrust. Most else is tweaks. There are more things I will do when I have time, money, like treatments. If you see the picture of my room from the kitchen, I plan to design and build a corner bookcase that will incorporate lots of absorptive materials behind it, and some kind of diffusive front.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18797807
> 
> 
> Well, being much more of a novice than you, yes. just working to get my speaker, seating placement right made a big difference. That is his main thrust. Most else is tweaks. There are more things I will do when I have time, money, like treatments. If you see the picture of my room from the kitchen, I plan to design and build a corner bookcase that will incorporate lots of absorptive materials behind it, and some kind of diffusive front.



I don't mean to come across as defensive, but I'm inclined to believe that what I'm hearing, this edgy distortion, isn't a byproduct of improper speaker placement or room issues. I hear the problem whether I'm 3 feet from the speaker or 12 feet and whether it is both speakers or a single speaker playing.


With that said, I will likely still pick up the book. While it may not offer the solution to my problem, hopefully it will offer some advice that will allow me to realize other improvements.


----------



## moonhawk

Understood, and I apologize if I'm coming across as a shill.


Not what I intended. Just hope you figure out what's going on.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18797851
> 
> 
> Understood, and I apologize if I'm coming across as a shill.
> 
> 
> Not what I intended. Just hope you figure out what's going on.



No worries. That is not how you are coming across. I appreciate your interest in helping me.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18797928
> 
> 
> No worries. That is not how you are coming across. I appreciate your interest in helping me.



If you ever want to borrow my copy let me know







I think it's a great resource, but I have to admit, I could not apply most of the advice he gave. I did kind of follow his advice on speaker placement which helped but I think inapplicable for your setup.


----------



## LostinLA

Tim, I've enjoyed following this thread for several weeks now.


I've heard the C1's with Sim Audio equipment (i3.3) at my local dealer and they were very impressive. I didn't spend a long time with them - but my dealer swears by Sim and Dyn as a match.


Have you tried putting a heavy blanket over the TV when listening? It might soften the sound reflection off it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18797998
> 
> 
> If you ever want to borrow my copy let me know
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's a great resource, but I have to admit, I could not apply most of the advice he gave. I did kind of follow his advice on speaker placement which helped but I think inapplicable for your setup.



You are a wealth of resources.










Yes, I'd like to borrow it.


----------



## hifisponge

For those of you that are using a Mac as a music server, you may have heard about the Amarra music player add-on for iTunes. It is supposed to make your music sound even better than using plain old iTunes, so I wanted to try it out.

http://www.amarraaudio.com/ 


Chjo100 was kind enough to loan me his Amarra USB license key so I could demo the software.


I installed Amarra Mini today and flipped back an forth through various songs in my library. At first I thought things might have been every so slightly more pleasant with Amarra on, but the more I listened, the less that seemed to be true. I listened for smoothness first (of course), but once that didn't pan out, I listened for detail and soundstage. I didn't hear any meaningful difference there either.


To see if Amarra was doing anything to alter the bits, I played a DTS encoded CD that will play only static if the bits have been changed at all. It played just fine with Amarra on. So, it is a "bit perfect" player (just as regular iTunes is as long as you have Sound Check and EQ disabled, and the sample rate set to match the recording).


Based on this audition, I don't think I'll be jumping on the Amarra fanboy bandwagon.


Your mileage may vary.


----------



## hifisponge

I was thinking a bit more about the sound I'm getting from the C1's and I remembered reading about a small complaint on the Dynaudio Contour S5.4 in the Stereophile's Ultimate AV review.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speaker...dio/index.html 


The S5.4 uses the same model tweeter as the C1 (and the rest of the confidence series), and sound coming from the tweeter is where the my problems with the sound of the C1 tend to lie.


The reviewer had this to say: "Tonally, the S5.4 was very balanced. During the break-in period, *I found it could be off-putting, with an upper-midrange glare and a degree of midrange grain*but it never bordered on "bright," an audiophile slight if there ever was one."


Personally, I think he is minimizing the issue by packaging the complaint in classic "**** sandwich" style (compliment/complaint/compliment). It also seems that these problems may have never really gone away after break-in, as this same reviewer later refers to the sound of the Dynaudio S5.4 in his review of the Paradigm Signature S4's.


The reviewer says: "The *extra upper-frequency energy of the Dynaudio Contour (S5.4) could be problematic with some pop and orchestral music, violins occasionally sounding thinner than they should*. The *Dynaudios could also be aggressive in the lower treble, unfavorably so with some recordings*, though to a lesser degree than the Paradigms."

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speaker...gm/index1.html (paragraph 8)


Isn't it curious that this reviewer never makes mention of "problematic / aggressive" treble after break-in in the actual review of the Contour S5.4, but when there is some distance between the S5.4 review proper and his next review he reveals more about the problems with the S5.4?


This is why I find it is important to read between the lines when reading professional reviews. They are always cagey when it comes to criticizing a product.


I'm still hopeful that he and other reviewers are being honest about the problem lessening with break-in, and I'm going to live with the C1's long enough to find out, but I just wanted to share a bit of new info that does seem to support what I'm hearing, which is particularly important since all of the other reviews are so glowing.


----------



## Pedro1985

I had the same problem with 5.4 when playing rock and metal. They surely have a big punch and bass for their size but are very unforgiven with many recordings. With C4 i found liquid mid and highs, very smooth at same time fast with any genre or recording, but lacked the presence and bass output of 5.4. I havent heard the Temptation but i wouldnt afford for my budget and unfortunelly my search between Dyns was ended. So, to satisfy my tastes and budget i sticked with B&W 801D which has a bit more bottom end than 5.4 and similar mid/highs of C4.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pedro1985* /forum/post/18803312
> 
> 
> I had the same problem with 5.4 when playing rock and metal. They surely have a big punch and bass for their size but are very unforgiven with many recordings. With C4 i found liquid mid and highs, very smooth at same time fast with any genre or recording, but lacked the presence and bass output of 5.4. I havent heard the Temptation but i wouldnt afford for my budget and unfortunelly my search between Dyns was ended. So, to satisfy my tastes and budget i sticked with B&W 801D which has a bit more bottom end than 5.4 and similar mid/highs of C4.



Hey Pedro -


Too funny, I was going to quote something similar you said about the S5.4 over on in the HTGuide forum, but you beat me to it.










It is interesting that you liked the mids / highs of the C4 but not the S5.4, since the same tweeter is used in both models.


Unfortunately, I find the C1's to be unforgiving and uncomplimentary to much of my music, even what I would consider to be pretty tame music. I can only hope that the C1's smooth out with time, as I've tried just about everything else.


----------



## golfugh

Tim


Hope things improve with the C1's. If not try and hear an Avalon. I think they may be what you are after. I've heard the Ascendant and the Time and there is nothing grainy in the Avalon series. Incredibly holographic imaging - I love them.


If you like what you hear you'll need to work with them to arrive at a center channel solution.


All the best

Mark


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *golfugh* /forum/post/18803435
> 
> 
> Tim
> 
> 
> Hope things improve with the C1's. If not try and hear an Avalon. I think they may be what you are after. I've heard the Ascendant and the Time and there is nothing grainy in the Avalon series. Incredibly holographic imaging - I love them.
> 
> 
> If you like what you hear you'll need to work with them to arrive at a center channel solution.
> 
> 
> All the best
> 
> Mark



Hey Mark -


Long time no see. I've heard and loved the Indras (in my top 3 for best sound I've ever heard), but as you point out, Avalon seems to be a 2CH only company, which makes it tough to go with that particular brand for my dual purpose rig. I appreciate the suggestion though.


----------



## golfugh

That's why I don't have them! Why they don't have a matching center?...










Good Luck


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *golfugh* /forum/post/18803590
> 
> 
> That's why I don't have them! Why they don't have a matching center?...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Luck



In this day and age it doesn't make much sense does it?


----------



## Audio 1

Tim.....


Any further developments or determinations this week ?


If you do decide change from the C1's what are some of the next contenders ?


Buddy


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Audio 1* /forum/post/18816322
> 
> 
> Tim.....
> 
> 
> Any further developments or determinations this week ?
> 
> 
> If you do decide change from the C1's what are some of the next contenders ?
> 
> 
> Buddy



Well, I've had to start the break-in process over because my C1s were replaced last week (finish defect in the first pair), so not much has changed. I'm still finding the sound of the C1's to be edgy and fatiguing. Not that I have high hopes of things changing drastically after break-in, but I'm running them 24/7 right now to speed things along.


I also plan to try the NAD M15HD and M25 to see if it helps smooth things out a bit.


Other speaker possibilities:

Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M

Audio Physics (Tempo or Scorpio)

Triad Gold Monitor


I actually went and listened to the Sonus Fabers today at lunch, and they seem like they are in the ballpark of what I'm looking for, but I'm not sure. The room they were in seemed to suck the bass out of every speaker in there, which left the mids and highs too exposed at times. The SF also seemed to change character more with each song on my audition CD than the other speakers I compared it to (Vienna Acoustics and Pioneer S-3EX). Sometimes the mids sounded a little lean, and other times it seemed well balanced. Same with the treble. Sometimes a little dark, and other times well balanced. One thing seemed consistent though, the mids seem a bit recessed, making vocals sound more distant. Not a bad thing necessarily, though there were some songs that I wished for a bit more presence.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18797837
> 
> 
> I don't mean to come across as defensive, but I'm inclined to believe that what I'm hearing, this edgy distortion, isn't a byproduct of improper speaker placement or room issues. I hear the problem whether I'm 3 feet from the speaker or 12 feet and whether it is both speakers or a single speaker playing.
> 
> 
> With that said, I will likely still pick up the book. While it may not offer the solution to my problem, hopefully it will offer some advice that will allow me to realize other improvements.




Just reading through your thread because Im research the design of your Wilson speakers (for a possible DIY project) but I want to maybe make a suggestion.


Have you moved your speakers setup in another room or outside for a quick listening test just to remove all doubts that its the room.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/18829940
> 
> 
> Just reading through your thread because Im research the design of your Wilson speakers (for a possible DIY project) but I want to maybe make a suggestion.
> 
> 
> Have you moved your speakers setup in another room or outside for a quick listening test just to remove all doubts that its the room.



I haven't but I suppose I should just to be sure.


So, are you going to construct your own carbon fiber cabinet for your project?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mpmct* /forum/post/18726556
> 
> 
> My free advice is drop the short money on the Shure in-ears, or
> 
> similar. ( Play with over-ear phones for other reasons, most have
> 
> a 'voice' of one kind or another. Avoid that game for this pursuit. )
> 
> Buy ones that are 'flat', not with gratuitous euphony.
> 
> An iDevice will drive them happily, and the iDevices are also
> 
> as flat and uncolored as you're going to get, realistically.
> 
> Then you have a two-bit reference system that will tell you without
> 
> coloration how a particular recording sounds, for better or worse.
> 
> You can leave obsessing about electronics and speaker entirely
> 
> out of the equation: they are what they are, they are accurate.
> 
> I have to say, the Shures I linked to are just deadly 'right', even
> 
> though I'm no big fan of long-term listening with in-ears.
> 
> But I use them as reference mostly: assuming good recording(s)
> 
> they are full-range, smooth as silk, and incredibly revealing of detail --
> 
> for the recordings that haven't been mangled somewhere in the process,
> 
> which sadly, are way too many. You won't do better with over the ears
> 
> for absolute accuracy and purity. It's worth the ~$70 IMHO, assuming
> 
> you already own an iDevice of some kind.
> 
> 
> Edit: at least you'll have a base-line. The possible downside is that
> 
> you'll hate everything you hear after you have time to get the
> 
> full scope of the in-ears. But at least you'll have a base-line.
> 
> Then, for music, you'll be forced to get yourself some Linkwitz Orions.
> 
> ( You *knew* that was coming. )



Got the Shure SLC2 headphones today and first I have to say that I don't think these headphones have a neutral tonal balance. They seem quite bright to me, with about the bass you would get out of small bookshelf speaker (not much). Yes, I made sure that there was a good seal of the ear cup in my ear canal to ensure that I was getting what bass is possible from these little ear buds.


However, even with their bright balance, I hear none of the edgy / etched quality I do from the C1's (or the B&W 805s). In regards to the "grain" that I hear from the C1s, that is pretty much gone too when listening with the Shure's, but this requires some explanation. I believe that what I hear as "grain" in the C1's is really the natural texture of vocal chords vibrating and such, but on an exaggerated level. I can still hear this texturing of the sound through the Shure earbuds, but it sounds more like a natural part of the voice or instrument.


As far as the Shure's being too bright, this was easy enough to fix with iTunes EQ (pulling down the 4, 8, 16KHZ bands by about 3dB. With the C1's, I've yet to find an EQ adjustment that takes away the edgy / granular quality.


----------



## mpmct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18839335
> 
> 
> Got the Shure SLC2 headphones today and first I have to say that I don't think these headphones have a neutral tonal balance. They seem quite bright to me, with about the bass you would get out of small bookshelf speaker (not much). Yes, I made sure that there was a good seal of the ear cup in my ear canal to ensure that I was getting what bass is possible from these little ear buds.
> 
> 
> However, even with their bright balance, I hear none of the edgy / etched quality I do from the C1's (or the B&W 805s). In regards to the "grain" that I hear from the C1s, that is pretty much gone too when listening with the Shure's, but this requires some explanation. I believe that what I hear as "grain" in the C1's is really the natural texture of vocal chords vibrating and such, but on an exaggerated level. I can still hear this texturing of the sound through the Shure earbuds, but it sounds more like a natural part of the voice or instrument.
> 
> 
> As far as the Shure's being too bright, this was easy enough to fix with iTunes EQ (pulling down the 4, 8, 16KHZ bands by about 3dB. With the C1's, I've yet to find an EQ adjustment that takes away the edgy / granular quality.



The Shures measure almost dead-flat. If they sound bright to you, it's because you're not used to flat. You might not like flat, but flat is flat. The end. There is no grain, because they don't have a passive crossover and the inevitable distortion that results. The bass is accurate too. Like most folks who spend most of their time listening through passive crossover, box loudspeakers, you've probably become accustomed to the boom otherwise known as bass, and/or you might like that boom. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you like. But that doesn't mean the Shures are bass-light. They aren't. You could put iTunes EQ back to flat, and only listen to music through the Shures for the rest of the summer -- do a full desktop reset on your expectations and biases. But anyways ... there's still no answer for you, because you have no reference as far as you're concerned. It will never end Tim. But that's not news now, is it?










edit: FWIW ... I've recently developed tinnitus is one ear, evidently the latent result of

a problem with that ear many years ago, at least that's what the ENT doc has guessed.

One of the symptoms of the tinnitus is sensitivity to loud sound generally,

but most specifically in the range you EQ'd back. For example the

sound of a dinner fork dropping on a plate is very hard to bear -- it's not quite 'pain',

but it's sure uncomfortable and unpleasant. Maybe you've got something

similar going on with both ears?


----------



## vantagesc

Actual flat does indeed sound bass shy to some. Tim has mentioned more than a few times that many humans perceive a downward sloping trend as flat, or at the very least, prefer a downward sloping trend to flat. _E.g._ Tim's downward sloping FR graph below. Though, it is a fairly gentle trend in that the HF are not rolled off, but the bass level is significantly higher than the midrange and upward.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18778138


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mpmct* /forum/post/18839529
> 
> 
> The Shures measure almost dead-flat. If they sound bright to you, it's because you're not used to flat. You might not like flat, but flat is flat. The end. There is no grain, because they don't have a passive crossover and the inevitable distortion that results. The bass is accurate too. Like most folks who spend most of their time listening through passive crossover, box loudspeakers, you've probably become accustomed to the boom otherwise known as bass, and/or you might like that boom. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you like. But that doesn't mean the Shures are bass-light. They aren't. You could put iTunes EQ back to flat, and only listen to music through the Shures for the rest of the summer -- do a full desktop reset on your expectations and biases. But anyways ... there's still no answer for you, because you have no reference as far as you're concerned. It will never end Tim. But that's not news now, is it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edit: FWIW ... I've recently developed tinnitus is one ear, evidently the latent result of
> 
> a problem with that ear many years ago, at least that's what the ENT doc has guessed.
> 
> One of the symptoms of the tinnitus is sensitivity to loud sound generally,
> 
> but most specifically in the range you EQ'd back. For example the
> 
> sound of a dinner fork dropping on a plate is very hard to bear -- it's not quite 'pain',
> 
> but it's sure uncomfortable and unpleasant. Maybe you've got something
> 
> similar going on with both ears?



Hey M -


With all due respect, I just reviewed Linkwitz's comments about the Shure's on his website, and it seems that they are not truly flat.


He says, "When I actually listened to a slow sinewave sweep, I found a fairly *broad peak centered at 3.8 kHz, a mild peak at 5.9 kHz and another peak at 9.2 kHz*. I made no attempt at equalization, because the realism of the E2 is so convincing. Also, at all frequencies the sound seemed fuller than with the other models, though I cannot explain why it should."


That's a lot of peaks right in the area that I felt the Shure's were too hot. And since Linkwitz admits that all of his impressions of the various earphones are done by ear with sweep tones, who's to say that he doesn't have his own hearing uniquenesses that he is compensating for?

_"The next step was to build an equalizer that would notch the peaks and we continued adjusting it until we were satisfied with the smoothness of auditory response. The circuit and the voltage across the transducers ended up looking as follows when *tuned for my ears*:"


"Based on my previous experience with headphones I was curious about these and decided to investigate their *perceived frequency response*. Somewhat to my surprise I found a similar response pattern as before. Therefore I proceeded to develop an equalizer and found the following corrections necessary to obtain a uniform *perceived amplitude response* to sinewaves."_


In my experience, I also don't think that passive crossovers are the catch-all source of grain. I have a set of passively crossed, grain-free Sonus Faber's on loan from a friend right now. My WBs with the Classe were grain-free, and I've listened to several other speakers at the local shop recently that were either grain free or close enough. I still don't understand the crossover distortion concept though, and a search of the Linkwitz site only pulls up A/B amplifier crossover distortion.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18841034
> 
> 
> Actual flat does indeed sound bass shy to some. Tim has mentioned more than a few times that many humans perceive a downward sloping trend as flat, or at the very least, prefer a downward sloping trend to flat. _E.g._ Tim's downward sloping FR graph below. Though, it is a fairly gentle trend in that the HF are not rolled off, but the bass level is significantly higher than the midrange and upward.



A downward tilt from bass to treble is only known to sound flat when sound is being projected by *speakers in a room*. I have no idea what sort of target curve is needed to make headphones sound flat, but I would think that it would be different than the target for in-room speaker response. There may even need to be some sort of compensation in the earphone response for the resonant frequency of th ear canal, which could be slightly different for each person. For instance, I have smaller ear canals than a number of my friends, which has to have some sort of effect on transmission of sound from in-ear phones I would think.


----------



## moonhawk

I can never get those bud thingies to stay in my ears--constantly falling out.


Also, I don't think I hear much above 10khz anyway, so would an upward curve sound flat to those like me who aren't exactly spring chickens?


Just saying, barring major spikes or dips, perceived curves may be just that.


----------



## vantagesc

Given our discussions, I think it's fair to say you prefer a slightly elevated bottom end. I may too, but I have never measured. Funny thing is that it doesn't necessarily even matter because recordings are all a little different and the bass you perceive also depends in part on the volume you listen at as well.


You now have a great / cheap tool for assessing your system and recordings. My phones have a slight peak in the treble, but it's not too bad. They are excellent for hearing what's on the recording. Even with elevated perceived treble, it is somewhat telling that there was still no unnatural grain vs. the Dynaudios.


SL doesn't like passives because they do not have constant behavior, require more of the amplifier, and cause a loss in control over the driver. I think the big distortion argument comes from Ashley James.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18841292
> 
> 
> I can never get those bud thingies to stay in my ears--constantly falling out.
> 
> 
> Also, I don't think I hear much above 10khz anyway, so would an upward curve sound flat to those like me who aren't exactly spring chickens?
> 
> 
> Just saying, barring major spikes or dips, perceived curves may be just that.



I have the same problem with earbuds, but the Shures come with inserts of different sizes. I use the smallest ones, which just barely fit.


There is some debate as to whether or not we should compensate for hearing loss through the sound system. Some say yes, others no. I think it depends on the amount of loss and range it falls into. Personally, I have moderate hearing loss centered at 4KHz (as recently tested). You would think that boosting the 4K region in my sound system would result in a more natural sound. It doesn't. It still sounds lifted. I think this is because the human brain compensates for the loss, and / or it grows accustomed to it, which makes the loss now seem "normal".


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18841507
> 
> 
> Given our discussions, I think it's fair to say you prefer a slightly elevated bottom end. I may too, but I have never measured. Funny thing is that it doesn't necessarily even matter because recordings are all a little different and the bass you perceive also depends in part on the volume you listen at as well.
> 
> 
> You now have a great / cheap tool for assessing your system and recordings. My phones have a slight peak in the treble, but it's not too bad. They are excellent for hearing what's on the recording. Even with elevated perceived treble, it is somewhat telling that there was still no unnatural grain vs. the Dynaudios.
> 
> 
> SL doesn't like passives because they do not have constant behavior, require more of the amplifier, and cause a loss in control over the driver. I think the big distortion argument comes from Ashley James.



Yes, I do like a bit more bass than is already present in most "house curves", but even taking that into account (lowered expectations), the Shure's still sound lean to me.


I can't say that I would know how to tell the difference between a driver out of control due to amplifier / crossover interaction or a speaker that just inherently sounds wooly in the bass. It is my rudimentary understanding that driver control is a product of damping factor, for which virtually all SS amps meet or exceed the minimum requirement.


----------



## hikarate

You know if it wasn't for our brains, this hobby would be a lot simpler.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18841507
> 
> 
> Given our discussions, I think it's fair to say you prefer a slightly elevated bottom end. I may too, but I have never measured. Funny thing is that it doesn't necessarily even matter because recordings are all a little different and the bass you perceive also depends in part on the volume you listen at as well.
> 
> 
> You now have a great / cheap tool for assessing your system and recordings. My phones have a slight peak in the treble, but it's not too bad. They are excellent for hearing what's on the recording. Even with elevated perceived treble, it is somewhat telling that there was still no unnatural grain vs. the Dynaudios.
> 
> 
> SL doesn't like passives because they do not have constant behavior, require more of the amplifier, and cause a loss in control over the driver. I think the big distortion argument comes from Ashley James.



Is there a description of what passive crossover distortion sounds like? I'm really curious now to hear how a active crossover system sounds. I'm guessing that for a HT setup it would be very impractical since it requires powering each driver separately, which could mean 6 channels for a 3 driver l/r setup alone.


Regarding headphones, maybe I don't like flat sound. I have a Shure e2c, and it sounds okay to me but to be honest I never thought it was any better than most of my speakers I've had. Maybe time to test it out again. Listening to it before, I never thought the sound was anything revelatory or anything that would be a reference, but it has been awhile and I haven't used it with my current dac.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18842231
> 
> 
> Is there a description of what passive crossover distortion sounds like? I'm really curious now to hear how a active crossover system sounds. I'm guessing that for a HT setup it would be very impractical since it requires powering each driver separately, which could mean 6 channels for a 3 driver l/r setup alone.
> 
> 
> Regarding headphones, maybe I don't like flat sound. I have a Shure e2c, and it sounds okay to me but to be honest I never thought it was any better than most of my speakers I've had. Maybe time to test it out again. Listening to it before, I never thought the sound was anything revelatory or anything that would be a reference, but it has been awhile and I haven't used it with my current dac.




I'm curious too about the sound of crossover distortion and the reasons for it.


You don't have to have external amps to go active, and if you heard the Meridian Speaker room at the Definitive Audio show, you've heard an actively crossed speaker system. As luck would have it, the Meridian system was my "best of show". How much of my enjoyment of that system was due to the active crossovers, I dunno.


Genelec is another popular choice for active speakers, and comparitively affordable to the Meridian stuff.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18842512
> 
> 
> I'm curious too about the sound of crossover distortion and the reasons for it.
> 
> 
> You don't have to have external amps to go active, and if you heard the Meridian Speaker room at the Definitive Audio show, you've heard an actively crossed speaker system. As luck would have it, the Meridian system was my "best of show". How much of my enjoyment of that system was due to the active crossovers, I dunno.
> 
> 
> Genelec is another popular choice for active speakers, and comparitively affordable to the Meridian stuff.



I know Meridian and Genelec have built in amps so they are actively powered but do they also have active crossovers? I have liked the Meridian based systems in the past but didn't spend too much time listening after hearing the price. I did get to hear some mid priced Genelecs and they did sound nice, but when I compared to some M&K's powered by B&K could not tell much of a difference. Not even sure which model it was though.


----------



## vantagesc

Mish mash of thoughts:


1. A possible advantage of the Meridian system is that the amps/speakers are sold together, so the designer will have already tuned the speaker for a particular set of electronics, more or less. This can be done with passives too of course. But if you think all electronics sound pretty much the same, then maybe this doesn't matter. To the extent that the designer is able to do more EQ with a digital crossover, then this might have some advantage too.


2. I don't think anyone has gone through the effort to make the same speaker in two versions (one active and one passive), where equal effort has gone into each design. Thus, it makes it difficult to directly compare the two systems. For example, my current speakers are supremely well integrated between the tweeter and midrange. To the extent that my old speakers sounded less integrated, I don't know if that is due to poor passive crossover design or the drivers.


3. Magico is now using metal film resistors instead of what is used in the typical passive crossover to solve the inconsistent load behavior problem. I have no idea how big of a problem this is / isn't.


4. If you google passive crossover distortion, you can find some distortion #'s from Martin Grindrod. However, I don't know is methodology, so you'd have to "trust" him.


5. Here's some interesting reading, but haven't read it carefully:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/activ..._intro1_e.html 


6. I don't have the Shures, but I don't think the point of headphones is to necessarily get a great subjective experience or anything revolutionary. It's just to get a decent reference for the recording so that you aren't, for example, going crazy trying to figure out if a problem resides in the speakers or the recording.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18842701
> 
> 
> I know Meridian and Genelec have built in amps so they are actively powered but do they also have active crossovers? I have liked the Meridian based systems in the past but didn't spend too much time listening after hearing the price. I did get to hear some mid priced Genelecs and they did sound nice, but when I compared to some M&K's powered by B&K could not tell much of a difference. Not even sure which model it was though.



Yes, both Meridian and Genelec use digital active cross-overs and DSP within the speaker to blend the drivers and smooth the response.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18843012
> 
> 
> Yes, both Meridian and Genelec use digital active cross-overs and DSP within the speaker to blend the drivers and smooth the response.



I didn't know that, that's pretty cool.


----------



## weird 23

Hey Hifi, how's the break in of the Dyn's going? I listened to something of mutual interest today, the NAD M15HD and the M25. I'll start by saying this is the best amp and processor combo I've ever heard in my short time of this hobbie(4yrs). It sounded so smooth and effortless, not strained at any sane listening levels. I really like the NAD target curve of Audyssey, it bests the MCACC in my Pioneer by a long shot. The dealer was a little vague about the Audyssey option though, from my understanding it`s an extra option which has to purchased seperatly. He didn`t know which version of Audyssey it was either, which I think he should have known. The speakers were a full 7.1 PSB Imagine series setup, which gave out long before the amp did. The room was mildly treated and I really enjoyed the sound of the NAD gear. The PSB`s sounded pretty good but not as good as my Paradigm Studio`s, I think the Sigs would sound really good with the NAD gear. This amp and processor are now at the top of my list, although I do have a few concerns about the processor though. Hopefully they have sorted out the firmware issue`s with it and I would like to know more about the Audyssey. Hopefully you will enjoy it as much as I did.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18849156
> 
> 
> Hey Hifi, how's the break in of the Dyn's going? I listened to something of mutual interest today, the NAD M15HD and the M25. I'll start by saying this is the best amp and processor combo I've ever heard in my short time of this hobbie(4yrs). It sounded so smooth and effortless, not strained at any sane listening levels. I really like the NAD target curve of Audyssey, it bests the MCACC in my Pioneer by a long shot. The dealer was a little vague about the Audyssey option though, from my understanding it`s an extra option which has to purchased seperatly. He didn`t know which version of Audyssey it was either, which I think he should have known. The speakers were a full 7.1 PSB Imagine series setup, which gave out long before the amp did. The room was mildly treated and I really enjoyed the sound of the NAD gear. The PSB`s sounded pretty good but not as good as my Paradigm Studio`s, I think the Sigs would sound really good with the NAD gear. This amp and processor are now at the top of my list, although I do have a few concerns about the processor though. Hopefully they have sorted out the firmware issue`s with it and I would like to know more about the Audyssey. Hopefully you will enjoy it as much as I did.



W23 -


Good to hear your report on the NAD Master Series. The Audyssey option in the NAD is a pro-only version, meaning that you need to hire someone with the professional calibration kit for $300-$500. Or you need to purchase the mic kit from Audyssey for $550 plus $50 for the digital key to unlock the use of Audyssey pro in the NAD. Add another $100 to that to upgrade to the version of Audyssey Pro that lets you adjust the target curve.


----------



## vantagesc

Hey weird23, I assume you listened to other processors/amps with the PSBs, otherwise it would be very difficult to make any conclusions about relative sound quality. What were the other processors? It sounded like maybe the Pioneer was used with your home speakers and not the PSBs? Thanks.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18849498
> 
> 
> Hey weird23, I assume you listened to other processors/amps with the PSBs, otherwise it would be very difficult to make any conclusions about relative sound quality. What were the other processors? It sounded like maybe the Pioneer was used with your home speakers and not the PSBs? Thanks.



You are right, last night I only listened to the NAD gear. This was the only amp and processor they had set up, everything else was a receiver based system. The Pioneer is used with my home speakers but the PSB's were also my home speakers for awhile. I bought a set of PSB Imagine T's and a set of Paradigm Studio 20 v5 and AB'ed them at home for two months. I then sold the PSB's for a loss after I felt the Paradigm's were better. At the time I was using the 20's as my fronts but have now moved on to the 100's, which is why I feel an external amp is needed. So was this a flawed test? Yes, the only conclusion that I can make is for my system and my ears. Which makes my opinion worth nothing on a public forum but in the end I'm the one who has to pay for and live with the equipment. I leave the detailed reviews and analysis to the people who are much better at it than I, like Hifi Sponge. There are only a few people on this site who are very good at writing about gear and the experiences they have with it. Hifi is one of them, I think anyway.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18849415
> 
> 
> W23 -
> 
> 
> Good to hear your report on the NAD Master Series. The Audyssey option in the NAD is a pro-only version, meaning that you need to hire someone with the professional calibration kit for $300-$500. Or you need to purchase the mic kit from Audyssey for $550 plus $50 for the digital key to unlock the use of Audyssey pro in the NAD. Add another $100 to that to upgrade to the version of Audyssey Pro that lets you adjust the target curve.



Yes this combo sounded less electronic than anything else I've heard before. Now I see why the dealer was so vague about the Audyssey with this unit. So for instance if I upgraded speakers(which is going to happen) I'd have to get the calibrator to come back and run Audyssey again?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18850032
> 
> 
> Yes this combo sounded less electronic than anything else I've heard before. Now I see why the dealer was so vague about the Audyssey with this unit. So for instance if I upgraded speakers(which is going to happen) I'd have to get the calibrator to come back and run Audyssey again?



Yes, if you change the speakers, or the position of the speakers at any time, you would need to have the calibrator come back to re-calibrate Audyssey. However, calibrating Audyssey Pro is something that I think the average user with basic computer knowledge can handle, so it may be in your best interest to just buy the mic kit from Audssey and do it yourself. I used to own the Audyssey Pro stand alone EQ and mic kit and I would be happy to help you with any set-up questions you have if you chose to go that route.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18851347
> 
> 
> Yes, if you change the speakers, or the position of the speakers at any time, you would need to have the calibrator come back to re-calibrate Audyssey. However, calibrating Audyssey Pro is something that I think the average user with basic computer knowledge can handle, so it may be in your best interest to just buy the mic kit from Audssey and do it yourself. I used to own the Audyssey Pro stand alone EQ and mic kit and I would be happy to help you with any set-up questions you have if you chose to go that route.



Is it really that much different than the Audyssey Multi-EQ XT as far as using it? If it's something I could do myself then I would be interested but not if everytime I change something someone has to come and recalibrate everything. I don't think that would be worth the added cost. Right now you are using Audyssey XT right? Is the PRO version really that much better? Right now I'm using the Perfect Bass Kit from Paradigm to calibrate my sub which involves hooking the mic and the sub up to the computer, would it be much different from that? Have you decided to keep your Denon? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to be sure that this is the right processor for me before I buy it. I am also considering the T175HD for ease of operation.


----------



## vantagesc

weird23, it sounds like you are still fairly familiar with the PSB sound.


BTW, I ran my Transporter direct to the amps (skipping the Denon receiver as a preamp) over the weekend and found a fairly noticeable increase in inner detail / texture. This sort of confirms that getting a dedicated pre-amp would improve the sound.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18851527
> 
> 
> Is it really that much different than the Audyssey Multi-EQ XT as far as using it? If it's something I could do myself then I would be interested but not if everytime I change something someone has to come and recalibrate everything. I don't think that would be worth the added cost.



Not terribly different, no. You do need to use a PC / laptop for the set-up, but literally, the whole thing is automated, so I don't know why they even require a professional to do it. You have a few choices to make along the way, like the frequency you want to set the crossover, and which target curve you want to use, but it is all point and click / drop-down boxes.



> Quote:
> Right now you are using Audyssey XT right? Is the PRO version really that much better?



The Pro version is technically no better than the standard XT version, but it does give you the flexibility to adjust the target curve if you like, and you can take measurements in up to 32 spots. Though I don't think that this is needed and it can do more harm than good.



> Quote:
> Right now I'm using the Perfect Bass Kit from Paradigm to calibrate my sub which involves hooking the mic and the sub up to the computer, would it be much different from that?



Should be in the same ball park, possibly even simpler.



> Quote:
> Have you decided to keep your Denon?



Still undecided. Though in all likelyhood, I'll pick up the NAD at some point. I'm just not sure if I want to swap out the Denon or the speakers first.




> Quote:
> Sorry for all the questions, I just want to be sure that this is the right processor for me before I buy it. I am also considering the T175HD for ease of operation.



Why would the T175 be easier to operate than the M15HD?


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18852423
> 
> 
> Not terribly different, no. You do need to use a PC / laptop for the set-up, but literally, the whole thing is automated, so I don't know why they even require a professional to do it. You have a few choices to make along the way, like the frequency you want to set the crossover, and which target curve you want to use, but it is all point and click / drop-down boxes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Pro version is technically no better than the standard XT version, but it does give you the flexibility to adjust the target curve if you like, and you can take measurements in up to 32 spots. Though I don't think that this is needed and it can do more harm than good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should be in the same ball park, possibly even simpler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still undecided. Though in all likelyhood, I'll pick up the NAD at some point. I'm just not sure if I want to swap out the Denon or the speakers first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would the T175 be easier to operate than the M15HD?



Now that you have explained Audyssey Pro I don't think that would be the case. The dealer I went to see yesterday is the only NAD dealer in my city and didn't want to talk about or explain anything anything about Audyssey Pro. I doesn't sound very hard to use, everything I've read or asked about in store has always given me the impression that you needed to hire a calibrator to do it for you. I've also read that in order to buy it you had to take a course to become an official Audsyssey installer before you could buy the mic and license. I'm glad that you have explained it to me . Thank you.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18852684
> 
> 
> Now that you have explained Audyssey Pro I don't think that would be the case. The dealer I went to see yesterday is the only NAD dealer in my city and didn't want to talk about or explain anything anything about Audyssey Pro. I doesn't sound very hard to use, everything I've read or asked about in store has always given me the impression that you needed to hire a calibrator to do it for you. I've also read that in order to buy it you had to take a course to become an official Audsyssey installer before you could buy the mic and license. I'm glad that you have explained it to me . Thank you.



Yes, that is what the dealer want's you to believe so he can make more $$ to set it up for you.







It used to be that Audyssey was pretty protective of selling the mic kit to the end user, but they seem to be more flexible on this now. I can give you the contact at Audyssey to place the order, when / if you want to.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18852933
> 
> 
> Yes, that is what the dealer want's you to believe so he can make more $$ to set it up for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It used to be that Audyssey was pretty protective of selling the mic kit to the end user, but they seem to be more flexible on this now. I can give you the contact at Audyssey to place the order, when / if you want to.



That would be great, I will take you up on that offer when the time comes. I'm going to buy the amp at the end of this month and will have to use my receiver for awhile. It will problably be about six months before the M15 will be purchased, then another sub. My HT upgrades will be on hold after that so I can put together a descent two channel system. I get the impression from reading your thread that after your Wilson/Classe system you seemed to be happiest with the Paradigm Sigs (correct me if I'm wrong). Have thought about going to listen to the V3's if you decide not to keep the Dyn's?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18853099
> 
> 
> That would be great, I will take you up on that offer when the time comes. I'm going to buy the amp at the end of this month and will have to use my receiver for awhile. It will problably be about six months before the M15 will be purchased, then another sub. My HT upgrades will be on hold after that so I can put together a descent two channel system. I get the impression from reading your thread that after your Wilson/Classe system you seemed to be happiest with the Paradigm Sigs (correct me if I'm wrong). Have thought about going to listen to the V3's if you decide not to keep the Dyn's?



Yes, after the WB / Classe rig, the Paradims were the best all-rounders. I have considered going back to them, but I kind of enjoy traveling in uncharted waters. There are so many interesting options out there.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18853137
> 
> 
> Yes, after the WB / Classe rig, the Paradims were the best all-rounders. I have considered going back to them, but I kind of enjoy traveling in uncharted waters. There are so many interesting options out there.



That's what I plan to do for my two channel system. I'm thinking it may be easier on the wallet with only two speakers to buy. Thanks for the advice today.


----------



## hifisponge

You have more speakers than you do house....


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18854056
> 
> 
> You have more speakers than you do house....



Tim,

Do tell, what do you have there? And what's next in the "Ever Changing HT "Chronicles? Sounds like you're ready to make a few moves.


Ed


----------



## nr5667

Hoarding high end speakers, that's a new one!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ERAU23* /forum/post/18854123
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> Do tell, what do you have there? And what's next in the "Ever Changing HT "Chronicles? Sounds like you're ready to make a few moves.
> 
> 
> Ed



Hey Ed -


I'm actually just helping a friend out that is moving. In that pic is:


2 pair of Revel Ultima Gems

Revel Ultima Voice Center

Revel B15 sub

a pair of Vandersteeen Model 5's

Ayre V-1ex amp

TacT RCS2.0 processor


In my living room are my C1's and a friend's Sonus Faber Domus stand mounts.


I'm listening to a pair of the Revel Gems right now. I've gone though all my reference tracks, and I'll be honest, these have to be the most tonally accurate and natural sounding speakers I've heard in a long time. Everything is right where it is supposed to be. No grain, no glare, no etch. Not a lot of "wow" to them and the sound stage is not as broad as I've heard, but tonally, and texturally they are spot on.


FYI - the Revel Gems use the same Scan Speak Revelator tweet as my old Wilson Benesch, so it doesn't surprise me that the edge and etch are gone. The Revelator has always sounded sweet and forgiving in every speaker I've heard it in.


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18854209
> 
> 
> FYI - the Revel Gems use the same Scan Speak Revelator tweet as my old Wilson Benesch, so it doesn't surprise me that the edge and etch are gone. The Revelator has always sounded sweet and forgiving in every speaker I've heard it in.



Yes they do


Same tweets as the front LCR in my North Creek Vision Signature Kits.


Post # 675


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18854737
> 
> 
> Yes they do
> 
> 
> Same tweets as the front LCR in my North Creek Vision Signature Kits.
> 
> 
> Post # 675



Very nice. Can't go wrong with a Scan Speak Revelator.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18854209
> 
> 
> I'm listening to a pair of the Revel Gems right now. I've gone though all my reference tracks, and I'll be honest, these have to be the most tonally accurate and natural sounding speakers I've heard in a long time. Everything is right where it is supposed to be. No grain, no glare, no etch. Not a lot of "wow" to them and the sound stage is not as broad as I've heard, but tonally, and texturally they are spot on.



This really resonates with me. I've had speakers that "wow" right after the bat, drawing ooo's and ahhhh's from guests. But this is only in the short term. The Gems probably only "wow" when the recording actually calls for it. To me, this is actually a preferred behavior because it allows for less fatigue/annoyance over the long run. Now, if these speakers sound boring, then that may be a different story...


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18855866
> 
> 
> This really resonates with me. I've had speakers that "wow" right after the bat, drawing ooo's and ahhhh's from guests. But this is only in the short term. The Gems probably only "wow" when the recording actually calls for it. To me, this is actually a preferred behavior because it allows for less fatigue/annoyance over the long run. Now, if these speakers sound boring, then that may be a different story...



I agree. While it main seem like a slight, an unremarkable speaker is usually a good thing. I would not call the Revels boring, but if you want something to jump out at you and say "look at me!", these ain't your speaker. But frankly, I find them a welcome relief from the extroverted performers that have come my way lately.


----------



## hifisponge





















I've been asked by a friend that is moving to handle the sale of his Revel Gem speakers in the pics above. I've been living with them for a few days now, and honestly these are some of the best speakers I've had the pleasure of listening to in my room. Balanced from the top to the bottom of their useful range, clean, expansive and just so "right" sounding.


The Gems really are a "gem" of a design that frankly bests a lot of what I've heard lately. So many high-end speakers just try too hard to impress IMO, but inevitably they overlay that "showy" character on everything put through them, which only detracts from the enjoyment in the long run. These on the other hand, are phenomenally uncolored. Not to mention that you can tailor their sound to your room with the high-frequency controls, and if you really want to be impressed, turn on the rear tweeters and listen to the soundfield and "air" increase without necessary making the sound brighter.


I think they are a steal for what you can get them for on Audiogon. I'm surprised that they haven't garnered some sort of cult following from those in the know.


I'm very tempted to buy these for myself, but I'm looking for something a bit more discretely sized than the center channel on offer here. Its friggin' 'uge!


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18861236
> 
> 
> I've been living with them for a few days now, and honestly these are some of the best speakers I've had the pleasure of listening to in my room. Balanced from the top to the bottom of their useful range, clean, expansive and just so "right" sounding.



Whether you keep them or not, it is heartening to see they offer a glimmer of hope that your quest will one day be fulfilled for a satisfying speaker system.


Reason enough to shoot off some fireworks!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/18861268
> 
> 
> Whether you keep them or not, it is heartening to see they offer a glimmer of hope that your quest will one day be fulfilled for a satisfying speaker system.
> 
> 
> Reason enough to shoot off some fireworks!



Yes, reason for celebration for sure.










I was more than wondering myself if any speaker system would ever sound good enough for me, but thankfully, I have had a handful of positive experiences recently.


It started with the loan of a set of small Sonus Faber's from a friend. Not the most exciting sound, but at least they weren't offensive like so many speakers I've heard lately.


Then I went to a local dealer's HT show and listened to an all-Meridian system that was fantastic.


I've also got a set of Vandersteen Model 5's set-up in my garage (selling for a friend) powered by an Ayre amp and a TacT prepro. The sound coming from that system is also phenomenal. It is a bit forward through the mids, but the imaging is absolutely amazing an truly 3-dimensional. The overall experience is right up there with the mega-buck 2CH systems at my local high-end dealer, where the cables alone cost more than this entire system. And what I find surprising is that even though the Vandy's use a metal dome tweet (well two of them actually), I hear none of the overly sharp aggressive quality that seems to be en vogue these days. Yet, they just as much detail as the Diamond and Be tweets.


I'll find something that works, it is just more of a challenge because the of the constraints I have to work with.


Happy 4th!


----------



## adidino

Hey Tim - Looks like you have your own little shop going there..










What did you think of the Sonus Faber overall? I auditioned them about a year ago. Thought they were a little dark and un-involving for my taste.


Tony


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18861236
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been asked by a friend that is moving to handle the sale of his Revel Gem speakers in the pics above. I've been living with them for a few days now, and honestly these are some of the best speakers I've had the pleasure of listening to in my room. Balanced from the top to the bottom of their useful range, clean, expansive and just so "right" sounding.
> 
> 
> The Gems really are a "gem" of a design that frankly bests a lot of what I've heard lately. So many high-end speakers just try too hard to impress IMO, but inevitably they overlay that "showy" character on everything put through them, which only detracts from the enjoyment in the long run. These on the other hand, are phenomenally uncolored. Not to mention that you can tailor their sound to your room with the high-frequency controls, and if you really want to be impressed, turn on the rear tweeters and listen to the soundfield and "air" increase without necessary making the sound brighter.
> 
> 
> I think they are a steal for what you can get them for on Audiogon. I'm surprised that they haven't garnered some sort of cult following from those in the know.
> 
> 
> I'm very tempted to buy these for myself, but I'm looking for something a bit more discretely sized than the center channel on offer here. Its friggin' 'uge!



They have some odd looking grills. I'm sure they sound great, I just don't know about the look.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/18863455
> 
> 
> Hey Tim - Looks like you have your own little shop going there..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did you think of the Sonus Faber overall? I auditioned them about a year ago. Thought they were a little dark and un-involving for my taste.
> 
> 
> Tony



Yeah, it is pretty wild having all of this high-end gear in my possession.


The Sonus Faber's I listened to were an inexpensive model from the Domus line that is a few years old now. I wouldn't call them dark, which to me means the top end is rolled off, but they were somewhat veiled and yes, somewhat un-involving. But they are good no-nonsense speakers that will never drive you (me) up the wall with any harsh colorations.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/0





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18863504
> 
> 
> They have some odd looking grills. I'm sure they sound great, I just don't know about the look.



The Revel Gems are definitely one of those love it or hate it designs. I like the modern, artistic, almost Art Deco appearance and find them much more interesting than most of the uninspired boxes out there.


----------



## Sunya




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18853137
> 
> 
> There are so many interesting options out there.



Tim, I think you should give a try to ATC monitors also (they have soft dome tweeters







). Vintage King sells the SCM11 in black ash for $1.3k, they're a steal at this price if not only for that bad woofer in them







.

http://www.vintageking.com/ATC-Louds...Pair-Black-Ash 


Here are some reviews:
http://www.stereophile.com/standloud...1_loudspeaker/ 
http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/r...tc-scm-11s.php 
http://www.whathifi.com/Review/ATC-SCM-11/ 
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread...l=1#post699687 
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...&openflup&16&4 


SCM11 woofer:


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks for the recommendation and all of the links Sunya. I will see if I can find a local ATC dealer. The mid/bass driver does look well made, and I know ATC has a good reputation.


----------



## Sunya

Looking on the Flat Earth Audio website (ATC distributor), it seems there is an ATC dealer in Seattle, *Cello Seattle*.

http://www.flatearthaudio.com/dealers.html 

http://www.celloseattle.com/ctdocs/p...tpartners.html


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sunya* /forum/post/18867613
> 
> 
> Looking on the Flat Earth Audio website (ATC distributor), it seems there is an ATC dealer in Seattle, *Cello Seattle*.
> 
> http://www.flatearthaudio.com/dealers.html
> 
> http://www.celloseattle.com/ctdocs/p...tpartners.html



I know Cello, they only do custom install. No showroom, no demo models.


----------



## sac8d4

Tim, have you considered any of Aerial Acoustics or Focus Audio's offerings?


----------



## [Irishman]




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18764238
> 
> 
> Sorry Irish, no Klipsch's in my auditioning past. I think that all of the tales of them being a bright and agressive sounding speaker scared me off. I should give them a listen just for reference though.
> 
> 
> My vote for HT speakers would be Paradigm. The are very dynamic, they have excellent off-axis reponse, they have excellent center speakers (also with great off-axis reponse), they play loudly withot strain, and they are a generally well-balanced speaker, if a touch forward / bright (not agressive to my ears). I'm only familiar with the Studio and Signature line though (their top models). PSB would be another good alternative for the same reasons.



Sorry so long on a reply. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by Klipsch's reinvention of some of their loudspeaker lines (The W Icon primarily rated very well by HT magazine an issue back, basically placing them at the top of their heap for price point - which, for the monitor system they assembled was about $2500).


They were given kudos for having bred out the brightness people associate with their horn speakers of the past (even up to and including the Reference Line).


----------



## [Irishman]




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18781693
> 
> 
> Hi Tyler -
> 
> 
> Using a Mac Mini as source connected to SuperNait via toslink optical out.
> 
> 
> Also tried using the Naim as an amp only with preout from Denon to analog in on Nait.



While you're upgrading, you should pick up the new Mini with HDMI out. I've heard great things about its performance over the model you have.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *[Irishman]* /forum/post/18878175
> 
> 
> While you're upgrading, you should pick up the new Mini with HDMI out. I've heard great things about its performance over the model you have.



What sort of good things?


I have been thinking about it, but didn't see a strong need to replace what I have just for an HDMI connection.


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18878773
> 
> 
> What sort of good things?
> 
> 
> I have been thinking about it, but didn't see a strong need to replace what I have just for an HDMI connection.



Yes, I would like to know as well?


I have the new Mac Mini now and previously just used CD's or an Ipod. I'm very happy to have full access to my complete collection of music using a shared drive (streaming over my CAT6A gigibit home network using the screen share functionality to an PC laptop (until next generation Ipad) and Harmony Remote) and other sources on the internet (PLEX, Radio, HULU, ...etc) directly attached to my entertainment center with HDMI, I'm not sure the new Mac Mini represents any additinal functionality over the previous Mac Mini other than HDMI.


The unit works great, looks great, quiet and reliable....meets expectations for a product from Apple.


Unless of course, I'm missing something?










Ed


----------



## [Irishman]

Check out the mac mini forum posts on the Mini forum on macrumors.com


There is tons to read there, both pro and con, but it's valuable because it's not a pro review.


----------



## weird 23

So how are the Dyn's coming along?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/18898035
> 
> 
> So how are the Dyn's coming along?



Well, i've got about 300 hours on them, and I think they have settled down a little bit, but I'm still not thrilled with the sound. Though I haven't had much time to listen to them, so I can't be sure. I'll see if I can get in some critical listening later this week to give you a better answer.


----------



## hifisponge

So banking on the C1's not changing much with break-in, I placed an order for a set of these in gloss black:


Audio Physic Virgo 25











But wouldn't you know, I'm listening to the C1's right now, (the first time critically since they broke the 300 hour mark), and I have to say that the etch / grain is largely gone. Not totally, but enough that they no longer bother me. Hmmm... maybe there is something to this break-in thing after all. It figures that they would change after I've already placed the order for the AP's.







I'll probably still get the APs, keep the C1's and just pick the speaker I like best between them.


For those curious, the Virgo 25 is $12,500 in a standard finish and $15,000 in a premium finish (gloss black/white, ebony).


I'll also be the first person in North America to own them I believe. Well, at least in the gloss black finish. Exciting!


----------



## Bigred7078

wow those looks awesome!


I thought you were wanting some bookshelves?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bigred7078* /forum/post/18907229
> 
> 
> wow those looks awesome!
> 
> 
> I thought you were wanting some bookshelves?



Oh yeah, I forgot I said that.










Seriously, I do prefer monitors, but small floorstanders are OK too. Especially when they look as racy as the Virgo 25.







The Virgo 25 is only 8" wide across the face, and 41" high, so they should be fairly discrete as tower speakers go. I'm just not interested in speakers the size of the Revel Studio2's, Focal 1037Be's, or the Dynaudio Sapphires that I've had in the past.


Part of the decision to go with the floorstander from AP is that they don't make a high performance monitor. They make a midline monitor called the Step that I will use as surround speaker, but I don't think they would cut it for a main speaker.


----------



## moonhawk

They look awesome--Hope they work out for you.


But then, where would that leave the rest of us who live vicariously by your adventures?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18907636
> 
> 
> They look awesome--Hope they work out for you.
> 
> 
> But then, where would that leave the rest of us who live vicariously by your adventures?



Well at least there will be some entertainment value in the upcoming showdown between the Virgo 25's and the C1's.


----------



## Bigred7078

When are those babies scheduled to arrive?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bigred7078* /forum/post/18907780
> 
> 
> When are those babies scheduled to arrive?



In from Germany to the Canadian distributor on 7/20, then a week from the distributor to the dealer, and another week from the dealer to me.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18907042
> 
> 
> So banking on the C1's not changing much with break-in, I placed an order for a set of these in gloss black:
> 
> 
> Audio Physic Virgo 25
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But wouldn't you know, I'm listening to the C1's right now, (the first time critically since they broke the 300 hour mark), and I have to say that the etch / grain is largely gone. Not totally, but enough that they no longer bother me. Hmmm... maybe there is something to this break-in thing after all. It figures that they would change after I've already placed the order for the AP's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll probably still get the APs, keep the C1's and just pick the speaker I like best between them.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll also be the first person in North America to own them I believe. Well, at least in the gloss black finish. Exciting!



Just when I thought things were getting quiet around here


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18907891
> 
> 
> Just when I thought things were getting quiet around here



It's all part of my calculated plan. You need a bit of a lull in the action before the big finale. Helps add impact to the event.


Or neither speaker will work, my plan will fizzle out, and I'll just fade into the background.


I'm not sure which is the truth.


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18907891
> 
> 
> Just when I thought things were getting quiet around here



I'll say! I was totally caught off guard by these new AP's. Tim does take this hobby serious










Tim- I think you're going to need the help of the SAGE to provide a proper comparsion between the C1's and these AP v. 25's.


----------



## Puma Cat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18907042
> 
> 
> So banking on the C1's not changing much with break-in, I placed an order for a set of these in gloss black:
> 
> 
> Audio Physic Virgo 25
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But wouldn't you know, I'm listening to the C1's right now, (the first time critically since they broke the 300 hour mark), and I have to say that the etch / grain is largely gone. Not totally, but enough that they no longer bother me. Hmmm... maybe there is something to this break-in thing after all. It figures that they would change after I've already placed the order for the AP's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll probably still get the APs, keep the C1's and just pick the speaker I like best between them.




Before you pass final judgement on the C1s, I would recommend:

1) Giving them another 50 hours.


2) Get some entry level Shunyata power cords, like the Diamond Back Platinum I recently got. Just get two, one for your digital source, and one for your Denon. I thought my S3.4s (as you know, all analog and tube front end) sounded pretty dang good until I put in the PCs, and then I realized that there was residual electronic glare that they took away; things smoothed out, but I did not lose any detail (in fact I got more, things just sounded smoother and sweeter with the additional detail). Give them a couple of days to run-in, and see what you think.


Seriously. You're spending (another) several grand on speaks, what's $250 for some power cords? I'm now of the opinion that if you think you know what the Dyns sound like w/o these PCs, well..respectfully, you don't.


----------



## Puma Cat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tmueller* /forum/post/18738524
> 
> 
> Tim - It sounds like you are having a lot of fun mixed with some challenges. I would urge you to be patient, as mentioned in the Dynaudio Owner's Thread, until break-in is 100% complete. If the C1 is not the smoothest speaker you have heard after complete break-in than I suggest you get "back to basics" with these couple of points/ideas:
> 
> 
> 1.) See if your dealer will borrow you a simple integrated amplifier. (My favorite is the Naim Supernait but any high current low distortion design will work.)
> 
> 
> Dynaudio loudspeakers are extremely revealing and my personal HT Pre-Pro (Arcam 888) displays very similar issues that you are concerned with. Which is why a basic, relatively inexpensive, integrated amplifier can be a blessing when properly incorporated into a highly resolving HT.
> 
> 
> 2.) If #1 does not solve your problem start looking at your speaker cables. A good point to start when glare is an issue is with a basic high quality copper cable.
> 
> 
> Please let me know if you have any further questions.
> 
> 
> Cheers!



I've read most of Tim's thread here since getting his C1's and I would agree with what Tyler has to say. Also, I don't know if "break-in discs" constitute the same thing as real music. The reason I say this is that C-J makes some high-end components with Teflon caps that don't sound good at all until they have at least *500* hours on them, and C-J says you have to play real music through these components to get them to break in properly, not "burn-in" discs or just leaving the components on. I think the qualities you heard when doing your recent comparo were in that phase Tyler described in the Dyn thread when they can sound harsh and you may be tempted to return them. My recommendation is to finish up the last 50-60 hours with them with some real classical, full-scale orchestral music.


Couple of other points...one thing I've learned about my Dyns is that they won't make a crap recording (including overly bright, or with glare or edge as examples) sound like a good one. "Danes don't lie" is their tagline, and it is true in my experience. A lot of modern music have crap mastering jobs and are compressed as all get out.


Secondly, you're looking for analog sound-quality from digital sources. I've only found that in very rare exceptions, like the Chesky jazz CDs, and not many others. This is why I listen to LPs 99% of the time. That reminds me, get a Chesky CD and listen to that and see what you think.


A last thought would be to try a Peachtree Nova and use it's DAC for music with your Mac Mini, and it's H-T bypass when you are watching movies. It has an absolutely superb DAC, a single, small 6922 tube front end that will add warmth (and can be tuned to taste with some tube rolling) that won't cause you any heating problems whatsoever (it's just a minitube), and it is supposed to be magical with digital sources of music. Something to consider giving it a shot....


----------



## Dynero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18863633
> 
> 
> The Revel Gems are definitely one of those love it or hate it designs. I like the modern, artistic, almost Art Deco appearance and find them much more interesting than most of the uninspired boxes out there.



I really like the gems appearance myself although I'm not too crazy about the stand, that base looks like a tongue.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dynero* /forum/post/18911607
> 
> 
> I really like the gems appearance myself although I'm not too crazy about the stand, that base looks like a tongue.



I agree. The foot on the stand is uninspired.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Puma Cat* /forum/post/18908056
> 
> 
> Before you pass final judgement on the C1s, I would recommend:
> 
> 1) Giving them another 50 hours.
> 
> 
> 2) Get some entry level Shunyata power cords, like the Diamond Back Platinum I recently got. Just get two, one for your digital source, and one for your Denon. I thought my S3.4s (as you know, all analog and tube front end) sounded pretty dang good until I put in the PCs, and then I realized that there was residual electronic glare that they took away; things smoothed out, but I did not lose any detail (in fact I got more, things just sounded smoother and sweeter with the additional detail). Give them a couple of days to run-in, and see what you think.
> 
> 
> Seriously. You're spending (another) several grand on speaks, what's $250 for some power cords? I'm now of the opinion that if you think you know what the Dyns sound like w/o these PCs, well..respectfully, you don't.



Hi Puma -


Thanks for stopping by my little corner of AVS. I've tried an assortment of power cables, ICs and power conditioners, including XLO, Kimber, Van Den Hul, AudioQuest, PS Audio, Element Cable, Wire World. If there were differences between these things, they were lost on me. The only one that made even a slight difference was the PS Audio Power Plant AC regenerator and I believe that is because it is not just a passive device. It converts the AC to DC and back to AC again.


Once I get the speakers sorted out, I'll see if I can get a Shunyata PC on loan.


----------



## hifisponge

Updated first page to cover more of my experiences and auditions.


----------



## hifisponge












I confirmed with the Audio Physic dealer that I will the first to own the Virgo 25 speakers in the US!


Nerd Rage!










Now lets just hope that they are the best damn speakers I've ever heard.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18917402
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I confirmed with the Audio Physic dealer that I will the first to own the Virgo 25 speakers in the US!
> 
> 
> Nerd Rage!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now lets just hope that they are the best damn speakers I've ever heard.



For Audio Physic's sake I hope they sound good. If you are the first owner, your review will be the only one that pops up when people google for it










The website doesn't seem to give much details on the tweeter and drivers. Are they all custom made?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18917819
> 
> 
> For Audio Physic's sake I hope they sound good. If you are the first owner, your review will be the only one that pops up when people google for it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The website doesn't seem to give much details on the tweeter and drivers. Are they all custom made?



What, you don't know all about the "Hyper Holographic Cone Tweeter II" and the "Hyper Holographic Cone Midrange"?


Hilariously outrageous names for those drivers, but some interesting tech within them. The chief designer at AP, Manfred D., designed the drivers, but Wavecor (ex Vifa driver guy gone solo) builds them.



















http://www.audiophysic.de/hhct/index_e.html 

http://www.audiophysic.de/hhcm/index_e.html 


Oddly, the tweeter is a bit of a throw-back to the very early days of tweets, in that it is a small cone rather than a dome. I can't find a solid answer as to why Manfred felt this was the way to go, but I believe it has to do with dispersion of the cone vs a a dome.


The midrange is unique in that it has a cast metal basket wrapped around a plastic one. The plastic absorbs vibration and the metal basket provides heat dissipation.


----------



## cachecoder

Is there a woofer, and related info?


----------



## chjo100

Side firing woofer I believe. You can see the grill on the side. My guess anyway.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cachecoder* /forum/post/18919519
> 
> 
> Is there a woofer, and related info?



Two 7" ceramic coated aluminum coned woofers, side mounted in the Virgo 25. Also made by ex-Vifa Engineer that started his own driver manufacturing company-- Wavecor.


----------



## vantagesc

Hey Tim,

What about these towers made you take the leap? They certainly look very good.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18927998
> 
> 
> Hey Tim,
> 
> What about these towers made you take the leap? They certainly look very good.



Hey VSC -


I answered that a few posts back.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18907330


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18928111
> 
> 
> Hey VSC -
> 
> 
> I answered that a few posts back.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18907330



Ya I had seen that...but that's just about why you didn't get a bookshelf.


I take it you just like their unique driver tech.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/18928172
> 
> 
> Ya I had seen that...but that's just about why you didn't get a bookshelf.
> 
> 
> I take it you just like their unique driver tech.



Ahh, I misunderstood.


My decision is based on the usual suspects: private user testimonials, professional reviews and objective measurements of APs last few speakers.


In other words: almost a total crap-shoot.


----------



## CLS

While we're all waiting for Tim's new speakers to arrive, perhaps this site might give us some thing to do. The klippel test... 


enjoy!


----------



## hifisponge

Interesting set of distortion audibility tests.


FWIW - I was just slightly above average on most of the tests, struggling to hear the distortion when it was lower than -24dB and never doing much better than -30dB. On the "terz" test though, I was able to hear the distortion at -45dB.


Thanks for posting the test CLS.


----------



## CLS

Hi Tim,


How's the bass of the C1 compared to those floorstanders you've owned over the years in the same room?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/18944705
> 
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> 
> How's the bass of the C1 compared to those floorstanders you've owned over the years in the same room?



Hey CLS -


The bass from the C1's is probably their most impressive trait. I talked about it in the Dynaudio thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18778130


----------



## CLS

Appreciate the feedback Tim. It really can stand up against the big guys.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/18961830
> 
> 
> Appreciate the feedback Tim. It really can stand up against the big guys.



I know it is hard to fathom for most guys that *need* floorstanders, but I've heard several flagship monitors that play virtually full range, with the C1 being the most impressive in regards to bass reach. Sure, you won't get the maximal output from a C1 vs a floorstander, but I've yet to push them beyond their limits in my 23 x 13 x 9 room. I do have a fair amount of room gain below 40 Hz though.


----------



## hifisponge












The first review of the Virgo 25 has been published.

http://www.audiophysic.de/download/v...06_virgo25.pdf 


Check out the 20Hz bass extension on this compact floorstander! Not that I need that sort of reach, but it is impressive nonetheless, and rather unusual for an AP speaker.


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18969463
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first review of the Virgo 25 has been published.
> 
> http://www.audiophysic.de/download/v...06_virgo25.pdf
> 
> 
> Check out the 20Hz bass extension on this compact floorstander! Not that I need that sort of reach, but it is impressive nonetheless, and rather unusual for an AP speaker.



In German--or whatever--with 'errors on page'. Also, "reviewed" by the manufacturer?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18970622
> 
> 
> In German--or whatever--with 'errors on page'. Also, "reviewed" by the manufacturer?



Huh?


The review is in both German and English.


----------



## thenish03




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/18970803
> 
> 
> Huh?
> 
> 
> The review is in both German and English.



The English review starts on page 4. The German review is the first 3 pages. Looking forward to reading it.


Hifi, any update on the timeline of when you will be receiving these - still a couple of weeks away?


Nish


----------



## moonhawk

Well, for whatever reason, I'm getting "errors on page" messages. Can't get the whole thing, just the picture. even when I went to the manufacturer's website and clicked on the link from there.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18971211
> 
> 
> Well, for whatever reason, I'm getting "errors on page" messages. Can't get the whole thing, just the picture. even when I went to the manufacturer's website and clicked on the link from there.



Maybe try installing the latest version of Adobe reader?


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/18971211
> 
> 
> Well, for whatever reason, I'm getting "errors on page" messages. Can't get the whole thing, just the picture. even when I went to the manufacturer's website and clicked on the link from there.



When I tried viewing with Chrome I got the same error message. Worked on Internet Explorer.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thenish03* /forum/post/18971060
> 
> 
> The English review starts on page 4. The German review is the first 3 pages. Looking forward to reading it.
> 
> 
> Hifi, any update on the timeline of when you will be receiving these - still a couple of weeks away?
> 
> 
> Nish



I think the speakers are probably 3 weeks away, but I don't know for sure. They supposedly left Germany on 7/20. From there they go to the distributor in Eastern Canada, then to the dealer, then to me.


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/18971939
> 
> 
> When I tried viewing with Chrome I got the same error message. Worked on Internet Explorer.



Thanks, I used Chrome too. I'll try I.E.


----------



## hifisponge

I spoke to the Audio Physic distributor today, and the bad news is that there will be a delay of several weeks in delivering the Virgo 25's to me (5 weeks total estimate for them to reach me). Apparently AP received the cabinets from their cabinet maker in Denmark, and the finish of the speaker did not meet their quality standards. The silver lining / good news is that AP cares enough about the quality of their products to reject what they were given.


Still, I'm anxious to hear them and I thought that day was going to come much sooner.


I seem to have a gift in selecting speakers that require weeks of waiting to get them.










I waited 9 weeks for the Focal's, 9 weeks for the Wilson Benesch, probably 10+ weeks for the B&Ws, and now it looks like roughly 8-9 weeks for these.


Its enough to drive a man to drink.


Gulp!


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19005119
> 
> 
> I spoke to the Audio Physic distributor today, and the bad news is that there will be a delay of several weeks in delivering the Virgo 25's to me (5 weeks total estimate for them to reach me). Apparently AP received the cabinets from their cabinet maker in Denmark, and the finish of the speaker did not meet their quality standards. The silver lining / good news is that AP cares enough about the quality of their products to reject what they were given.
> 
> 
> Still, I'm anxious to hear them and I thought that day was going to come much sooner.
> 
> 
> I seem to have a gift in selecting speakers that require weeks of waiting to get them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I waited 9 weeks for the Focal's, 9 weeks for the Wilson Benesch, probably 10+ weeks for the B&Ws, and now it looks like roughly 8-9 weeks for these.
> 
> 
> Its enough to drive a man to drink.
> 
> 
> Gulp!




...may I suggest a nice glass of chilled Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio 2008 (one of my favs for the these nice lazy Seattle warm days).










I think also the guys at Audio Physic know that you will be taking a detailed look at the fit and finish for your review so they had better get it right. Must be nice to basically get a custom set of speakers made just for you







. I'm sure they will be very nice when they finally do arrive in tip top shape and finally tuned for your listening pleasure


Are those C1's coming around a bit more?


Ed


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ERAU23* /forum/post/19005372
> 
> 
> ...may I suggest a nice glass of chilled Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio 2008 (one of my favs for the these nice lazy Seattle warm days).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think also the guys at Audio Physic know that you will be taking a detailed look at the fit and finish for your review so they had better get it right. Must be nice to basically get a custom set of speakers made just for you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I'm sure they will be very nice when they finally do arrive in tip top shape and finally tuned for your listening pleasure
> 
> 
> Are those C1's coming around a bit more?
> 
> 
> Ed



Thanks for the suggested spirits and the words of encouragement.










Funny enough, the Dynaudio C1's have completely shed their somewhat edgy character, leaving me nothing to complain about really. Yet, I find myself indifferent about their sound. Not great, not horrible, just sort of "there".


----------



## vantagesc

Wine will not suffice this time around:


----------



## hifisponge

I don't know if I'm just feeling spunky today or what, but I've just about had it with the crap that is published on audio gear that is supposed to pass for a review.


I get e-mail updates from AVguide.com when they publish new articles, and today they posted one on the KEF 203/2. So I click on the link and skim past the product description to get to the listening portion, and read this:


"As I listened to Ricki Lee Jones' cover of Second Time Around [ORG Records] wash over me in my first few moments with the 203/2, what immediately came across was the 203/2's animated and precise midrangethe forceful presence of the acoustic bass, the reedy chord play from the bellows-driven accordion, and the delicacy of the nylon string guitar. The feeling was like sinking into a midrange of considerable density."


What a load of crap. These guys treat a review like it's some sort of exercise in creative writing. I don't even know half of what this writer means. "Sinking into a midrange of considerable density", huh? Is the speaker populating the midrange with more instruments than before? Is the midrange thick and delicious? What the hell does he mean?!


The paragraph that follows, starts with this: "A colorful yet uncolored transducer that permits timing, dynamics, and harmonics to come to full boil during a performance. "


"Colorful yet uncolored", really?


At this point I think the writer is purposely writing double-talk nonsense just to see what he can get away with.


Then just three paragraphs apart, he writes: "This is not a loudspeaker that goes to tonal extremes, either hotly aggressive or laid-back. Its voice has an even almost mellow neutrality..." follow by this, "On occasion upper brass is a bit more brash through the KEF than say the much-more-expensive TAD CR1... there's a thickness to the vocal, a darker tone that I don't normally hear. Not unpleasant but somehow additive."


OK, now I know he's messing with us. First, either the speaker is "mellow" or "neutral", it can't be both. It's like saying a "Jim is very assertive in his reservedness." Likewise, if the speaker is mellow, it cannot also be "brash". Lastly if the speaker is neutral, it can't have "additive" colorations that are "thick" and "dark".


Isn't anyone straightforward and honest anymore?


And if I read another review that includes the words "verisimilitude" or "palpable" I'm going to have to resort to violence. Who talks like this? Are we expected to be sitting around sipping Cognac, smoking fine cigars in our ascots while reading this drivel?


I will leave you with this cherry on top of the sundae.


"Rather than simply let the music rise and bloom into the acoustic of a venue, the 203/2 can sometimes sound as if an invisible hand is guiding the sound."

http://www.avguide.com/review/kef-re...4?src=Playback 


Enjoy!


----------



## moonhawk

"..I don't know if I'm just feeling spunky today or what, but I've just about had it with the crap that is published on audio gear that is supposed to pass for a review..."



"..Funny enough, the Dynaudio C1's have completely shed their somewhat edgy character, leaving me nothing to complain about really. Yet, I find myself indifferent about their sound. Not great, not horrible, just sort of "there"..."


----------



## moonhawk

I know..I'm being unfair. Just having a little fun...


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/19008124
> 
> 
> "..I don't know if I'm just feeling spunky today or what, but I've just about had it with the crap that is published on audio gear that is supposed to pass for a review..."
> 
> 
> 
> "..Funny enough, the Dynaudio C1's have completely shed their somewhat edgy character, leaving me nothing to complain about really. Yet, I find myself indifferent about their sound. Not great, not horrible, just sort of "there"..."



Ouch! That's hurts more than you can imagine.


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19005119
> 
> 
> I spoke to the Audio Physic distributor today, and the bad news is that there will be a delay of several weeks in delivering the Virgo 25's to me (5 weeks total estimate for them to reach me). Apparently AP received the cabinets from their cabinet maker in Denmark, and the finish of the speaker did not meet their quality standards. The silver lining / good news is that AP cares enough about the quality of their products to reject what they were given.



Just checking in Tim, 5 more weeks huh!!!







While waiting, any chance of considering a tube based preamp or DAC to integrate into your system?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/19008534
> 
> 
> Just checking in Tim, 5 more weeks huh!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While waiting, any chance of considering a tube based preamp or DAC to integrate into your system?



I've thought about tubed gear often, but I always come back to the same rationale for not doing it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since I always use a sub, and EQ, the output of of a tubed DAC would get redigitized by the processor, defeating the purpose of an outboard DAC. In regards to pres, I know of no tubed 2Ch pre that has a filtered sub out or EQ.


Maybe, if the Virgos are close enough to full range, I will no have these limitations, but only time will tell.


Suggestions welcome.


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19008219
> 
> 
> Ouch! That's hurts more than you can imagine.



No hurt intended, Tim--This is a stellar thread and you have always been a gracious host.


Like I said, just having a little fun...


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/19008534
> 
> 
> Just checking in Tim, 5 more weeks huh!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While waiting, any chance of considering a tube based preamp or DAC to integrate into your system?



Tube Preamp and DAC is a very nice suggestion







I find myself listening to music and watching movies through my 2 channel tube preamp 90% of the time and loving it! Actually too much. Been staying up way too late listening to music lately.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19009320
> 
> 
> Tube Preamp and DAC is a very nice suggestion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find myself listening to music and watching movies through my 2 channel tube preamp 90% of the time and loving it! Actually too much. Been staying up way too late listening to music lately.



I remember those days.










Lately, I've had the time but not the desire.


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19009362
> 
> 
> I remember those days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lately, I've had the time but not the desire.



Hopefully, the new Virgos will cure that.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/19009524
> 
> 
> Hopefully, the new Virgos will cure that.



If only my current system had more palpable presence.


----------



## moonhawk

Be careful what you wish for--I've heard palpable presence isn't everything it's cracked up to be..


I prefer it when notes emerge from an inky background...


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/19009606
> 
> 
> Be careful what you wish for--I've heard palpable presence isn't everything it's cracked up to be..
> 
> 
> I prefer it when notes emerge from an inky background...



I dunno. Ink can be pretty messy stuff. Ruined one of my shirts once. If you aren't careful, your notes may get covered in inky filth. Though I hear that a good power conditioner should take care of this.


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19009041
> 
> 
> I've thought about tubed gear often, but I always come back to the same rationale for not doing it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since I always use a sub, and EQ, the output of of a tubed DAC would get redigitized by the processor, defeating the purpose of an outboard DAC. In regards to pres, I know of no tubed 2Ch pre that has a filtered sub out or EQ.
> 
> Maybe, if the Virgos are close enough to full range, I will no have these limitations, but only time will tell.
> 
> Suggestions welcome.



Tim, for 2 channel music with tubed preamp or DAC, nothing better than a minimalist approach (sans sub and eq.). It'll be most rewarding and addictive. Same sentiment as Chjo100.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19009320
> 
> 
> I find myself listening to music and watching movies through my 2 channel tube preamp 90% of the time and loving it! Actually too much. Been staying up way too late listening to music lately.


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19010846
> 
> 
> Not quite as striking as the same speaker in white, but still very attractive in an understated sort of way. I'm a details guy anyway, so things like the 3/8" aluminum face plate, the outrigger feet, the unique cabinet shape, that unusual cone/dome tweeter, and even the machined emblem at the base of the face, all contribute to speaker that still stands out from the average speaker.



They really are very nice looking. Just the right size and shape as I've seen the Virgo 5.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19009320
> 
> 
> Tube Preamp and DAC is a very nice suggestion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find myself listening to music and watching movies through my 2 channel tube preamp 90% of the time and loving it! Actually too much. Been staying up way too late listening to music lately.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/19013085
> 
> 
> Tim, for 2 channel music with tubed preamp or DAC, nothing better than a minimalist approach (sans sub and eq.). It'll be most rewarding and addictive. Same sentiment as Chjo100.



While we are on different paths in the pursuit of hi-fi, as I'm no minimalist/purist, but I'm open to trying something out if the Virgos are full range enough and well behaved enough in the bass that I don't need a sub or EQ.


I will need a DAC since I use a Mac Mini as my source.


What do you guys recommend as a DAC, pre or both?


----------



## vantagesc

It would be pretty funny if they couldn't match the C1's in "full-range" capability, but I guess not all floor standers are intended to be full-range.


What are your thoughts on needing flat to 20hz extension for music?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/19014048
> 
> 
> It would be pretty funny if they couldn't match the C1's in "full-range" capability, but I guess not all floor standers are intended to be full-range.
> 
> 
> What are your thoughts on needing flat to 20hz extension for music?



The C1's reach quite low for their size, and for the most part I don't feel compelled to use my sub with them, however, C1's + sub is still better. There is more power and weight to the low end with the later. So the AP's would have to meet or beat the C1 + JL for me to give up using a sub.


I'd say flat anechoic to 35Hz for music would be fine, but room interaction plays a big part in the outcome. The Focals I used to own and the Dyn 5.4's both had the power and extension to go subless in my room, but nothing else has. Not even the Revel Studio2's, which were rather large with 4 8" bass drivers total.


----------



## vantagesc

I was playing some Kanye West ridiculously loud the other night (poor neighbors) just to see what would happen. Kept going louder and louder until I began to worry about clipping the woofer amps and their prodigious 40w output. Anyway, at some point, even a "full-range" speaker begins to benefit from the use of a sub.


BTW, it is scary to see your midrange driver have visible excursions.


----------



## hifisponge

Since I placed my order for the Audio Physic Virgo 25's, I've been a bit torn as to whether to go with the gloss black or the satin ebony. I like both for different reasons, but I'd like to get some other opinions.


In this living room setting ...











Would you go with black speakers?










Here's another model in black in a higher resolution.










or, with the ebony? (different model shown just for the finish)










This one shows the same speaker in a lower light that is probably closer to the level of light in my room.


----------



## weird 23

I would go with the Ebony.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19014554
> 
> 
> I would go with the Ebony.



Thanks. The ebony is very handsome. Any particular reason that you chose it?


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19014886
> 
> 
> Thanks. The ebony is very handsome. Any particular reason that you chose it?



I'm not Weird (you may disagree--







), but I love the look of that ebony also. If you remember my speakers, you know I like natural wood. And that ebony is gorgeous.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19014886
> 
> 
> Thanks. The ebony is very handsome. Any particular reason that you chose it?



Piano black always seems to remind of plastic, except for the B&W Diamonds. There's something about those that just looks right and your new speakers just don't have that look in black. A well done wood veneer just looks more expensive too me and gives it more of a built just for you look. The majority of people have some sort of black speakers and it's just not something as commonplace as black. I don't have the right kind of decor and I don't think you do either for the white, although they look great. It's just not a colour that you see very often, I like it. Just not in my home.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19015295
> 
> 
> Piano black always seems to remind of plastic, except for the B&W Diamonds. There's something about those that just looks right and your new speakers just don't have that look in black. A well done wood veneer just looks more expensive too me and gives it more of a built just for you look. The majority of people have some sort of black speakers and it's just not something as commonplace as black. I don't have the right kind of decor and I don't think you do either for the white, although they look great. It's just not a colour that you see very often, I like it. Just not in my home.



Excellent support for your opinion. Very descriptive and well thought out.


I agree that black is a bit too commonplace, and even a bit boring, but at the same time, I like a high-tech look to my gear. It stands out against the classic / contemporary decor of my room. The ebony is very handsome, but with the satin finish it looks a bit too stately and conservative. I'm also not sure about the red hue to the ebony. If it were more brown and in gloss, it would be a no brainer.


I've got a friend that thinks he can work up a mock-up of the different speaker finishes in my room. This should help with the visualization.


----------



## chjo100

I like Ebony but my vote would go for the piano black. Why? Matches most decor so even if you decide to change your furniture, repaint walls, get new av stand, it will probably match. And resale for piano black would probably be higher, not that you would ever have to worry about that


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/19014048
> 
> 
> It would be pretty funny if they couldn't match the C1's in "full-range" capability, but I guess not all floor standers are intended to be full-range.
> 
> 
> What are your thoughts on needing flat to 20hz extension for music?



Hey Vantage,


If I remember correctly you were curious how my speakers differed from the version with the active crossover. Well I still haven't heard them but someone intimately familiar with the sound of my speakers got to hear the version with the active crossover. Bearing in mind that he was dubious about the benefits of an active crossover, he told me it was "ear opening". He kept describing it, more clean and focused. That's actually my impression of the Meridian based setups so maybe there is something in an active crossover that has a detrimental effect to the sound. As for the mods to the speakers I had he was very impressed but said it wasn't for the faint of heart. Apparently besides the experimentation in playing with the crossover points, it was adjusted in the time domain. Definitely not plug and play, but now I really have to hear them! Would you describe your experience moving from a passive crossover speaker to a active crossover to a more clean and focused sound? Sorry to get off topic, but this whole active crossover idea is rather fascinating to me.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19015397
> 
> 
> I like Ebony but my vote would go for the piano black. Why? Matches most decor so even if you decide to change your furniture, repaint walls, get new av stand, it will probably match. And resale for piano black would probably be higher, not that you would ever have to worry about that



Also goo rationale, and it covers some points I had considered myself, like resale value.










I was so used to seeing the Virgo 25's in white, which is quite striking but impractical, that when I saw them in black, I felt some of the appeal of the design was lost. But I think that the pic of them in black doesn't capture what they will look like in person.


I have since found this pick of the V25 in gloss white and the Cardeas in gloss black, and the gloss black looks more impressive in this shot than it does in the brochure pic.











BTW - sidetrack all you like. This thread is open discussions of all things AV.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19013826
> 
> 
> While we are on different paths in the pursuit of hi-fi, as I'm no minimalist/purist, but I'm open to trying something out if the Virgos are full range enough and well behaved enough in the bass that I don't need a sub or EQ.
> 
> 
> I will need a DAC since I use a Mac Mini as my source.
> 
> 
> What do you guys recommend as a DAC, pre or both?



I kind of hope you don't go to the preamp dac route yet. One of the fascinating aspects of this part of your journey is whether you can match or get close to the WB + Classe setup by getting a lower cost electronics but trying to match with different speakers. My current system was me giving up trying to find a ht processor that also did not leave me wanting for more from two channel. Now I watch mostly in 2 channel but have a cumbersome setup for times when I yearn for five channel. That said, I've tried a several preamps and many dacs.


Preamps-Wyred 4 Sound STP was a really nice piece and I felt reasonably priced. Had HT bypass and music sounded wonderful though it. Parasound JC-2 to me was even a little better, being a little smoother and transparent. Since you love audiophile review verbiage so much, let's just say both had a chocolaty midrange with excelled in all areas of PRAT.


DACS-I think most dacs now have preamp functionality which works well based on my experience. This is one area where I didn't necessarily feel newer DACS performed better than old models. I'm not even sure how much the DAC contributed to the overall sound since I've heard the same DAC used in different pieces sound different. TADAC is a under 1k tube dac and I liked it a lot. Not so much as a preamp, but as a DAC going into the W4S or JC2 it was great. I think probably as good as the Weiss DAC2 or PWD, but I didn't have the TADAC at the same time so I'm not sure about this. Weiss DAC2 was good but glitchy and I lost patience on waiting for the bridge for the PWD. In the end the Classe to me was on par with those two. Berkeley Alpha DAC was definitely a step up from those two to my ears but only had it for a weekend. Amarra Model 4 was my favorite and my current DAC and sometimes preamp. However, I think you preferred the Marantz AV8003 over it, so perhaps separate dac would not be upgrade for your system







I actually thought the Classe SSP-800 was just as good as most of the dacs I tried though.


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks for the thoughts.


I liked the Marantz AV8003 when I was having troubles with the Dyn C1 sounding edgy and shouty. Now that the C1's have calmed down, I don't think the softer sounding Marantz would be a good match.


I'm curious. I always tend to swap out speakers first when I'm not getting the sound I want (to state the obvious), but you went down the road of swapping out everything but. What lead you to believe that this was the path to take and did you finally get what you were after?


You said the Amarra is your preamp "sometimes". What else do you use? And what are you doing for multichannel?


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19015456
> 
> 
> I kind of hope you don't go to the preamp dac route yet. One of the fascinating aspects of this part of your journey is whether you can match or get close to the WB + Classe setup by getting a lower cost electronics but trying to match with different speakers. My current system was me giving up trying to find a ht processor that also did not leave me wanting for more from two channel. Now I watch mostly in 2 channel but have a cumbersome setup for times when I yearn for five channel. That said, I've tried a several preamps and many dacs.
> 
> 
> Preamps-Wyred 4 Sound STP was a really nice piece and I felt reasonably priced. Had HT bypass and music sounded wonderful though it. Parasound JC-2 to me was even a little better, being a little smoother and transparent. Since you love audiophile review verbiage so much, let's just say both had a chocolaty midrange with excelled in all areas of PRAT.
> 
> 
> DACS-I think most dacs now have preamp functionality which works well based on my experience. This is one area where I didn't necessarily feel newer DACS performed better than old models. I'm not even sure how much the DAC contributed to the overall sound since I've heard the same DAC used in different pieces sound different. TADAC is a under 1k tube dac and I liked it a lot. Not so much as a preamp, but as a DAC going into the W4S or JC2 it was great. I think probably as good as the Weiss DAC2 or PWD, but I didn't have the TADAC at the same time so I'm not sure about this. Weiss DAC2 was good but glitchy and I lost patience on waiting for the bridge for the PWD. In the end the Classe to me was on par with those two. Berkeley Alpha DAC was definitely a step up from those two to my ears but only had it for a weekend. Amarra Model 4 was my favorite and my current DAC and sometimes preamp. However, I think you preferred the Marantz AV8003 over it, so perhaps separate dac would not be upgrade for your system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually thought the Classe SSP-800 was just as good as most of the dacs I tried though.



Tim -

Before I purchased the SSP-800, I had the STP SE for a while and used it with an Onkyo Pro 886P, source was a Cullen modded Sonos ZP-80 through PS Audio's PerfectWave DAC. It sounded very good. The nice thing about the STP SE is that it has two unbalanced outs per channel so you could use it with your sub if you wanted to. If you went the PWD route, you could just get it and use it as a pre-amp since it does have volume control, but you wouldn't be able to use your sub.


PS Audio will be adding the Bridge to the PWD in a couple of months that will allow the pair to stream audio files off of your computer, NAS, WHS, etc provided you have a UPnP media server & router.


As a few of you know, I'm beta testing the Bridge. Initial results are pretty good, although we are having a few hiccups with the app and how it handles some files...a firmware and app update are expected this week. Here's the link to the public beta site blog: http://www.psaudio.com/betablog/


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19015476
> 
> 
> Thanks for the thoughts.
> 
> 
> I liked the Marantz AV8003 when I was having troubles with the Dyn C1 sounding edgy and shouty. Now that the C1's have calmed down, I don't think the softer sounding Marantz would be a good match.
> 
> 
> I'm curious. I always tend to swap out speakers first when I'm not getting the sound I want (to state the obvious), but you went down the road of swapping out everything but. What lead you to believe that this was the path to take and did you finally get what you were after?
> 
> 
> You said the Amarra is your preamp "sometimes". What else do you use? And what are you doing for multichannel?



I was fortunate early on to hear my speakers with equipment that matched well. I heard it via BAT Stereo Amp and BAT Tube CD Player in a well treated room so I had an idea of the potential sound I could achieve. BAT isn't uber expensive luxury equipment, but even with this pairing, I preferred the sound to some more expensive setups I compared with so I figured I would keep trying to work with the speakers I had until I was happy or reached it's potential and move onto another speaker. While I was trying out different processors, amps and dacs, I did occasionally bring in other speakers just to see how they sound with "better" electronics paired up with them. I can't argue with your method though after trying out different components and seeing how little it made a difference. Just recently I needed a longer power cord for my Plinius Odeon so I used the stock power cord that comes with my power conditioner (an extra APC H15) and I can't tell an iota of difference from my "audiophile" power cord. Also I got back my Plinius Odeon which weights 120 lbs, but can only tell a slight difference from the much cheaper and lighter (40lb) Plinius P10 I had. For me, source and speakers seem to account for the biggest change in sound.


I'm using a First Sound tube preamp. In many ways so backwards. It has no remote control and its single ended. I keep trying to wean myself off of it by going to Amarra as preamp so I can sell the darn thing and fund some other projects, but the FS preamp seems to get the music just about where I like it so I haven't been able to part with it. So basically I go Mac Mini>Amarra Model4>FS Preamp>Plinius Odeon. Then I have ht processor go into five other channels in Odeon and I have two separate speaker cables go to left and right speaker. When I got multi channel I swap the left and right speaker cables. It's fairly cumbersome and not an elegant solution, thus not one I recommend.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19015414
> 
> 
> Would you describe your experience moving from a passive crossover speaker to a active crossover to a more clean and focused sound? Sorry to get off topic, but this whole active crossover idea is rather fascinating to me.



Thanks for the update! The theoretical benefits of active are, among other things: 1) less non-linear distortion, 2) direct control over the drivers by the amp, 3) less driver impedance reaction. The hard part about evaluating active is that I do not have any apples to apples data. That is, it is rare to hear the same exact speaker with a well-implemented passive crossover compared to a well-implemented active crossover. However, I have heard some very ordinary speakers with actives and some very expensive, and I suspect that there is a benefit, especially with bass.


I suspect active has not taken off in hifi because the fear of complexity, the amount of additional circuitry that could "degrade" the sound in the mind of audiophiles, and the number of amps needed per speaker.


My own speakers have a crossover topology that is complicated enough that trying to implement the same thing passively may not work well. Also, their sound is attributable to many characteristics, not just the active crossover. I will say that they are remarkable in their ability to not sound harsh without overly softening the sound, despite the signal passing through several op-amps and using inexpensive electronics.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19015456
> 
> 
> Preamps-Wyred 4 Sound STP was a really nice piece and I felt reasonably priced. Had HT bypass and music sounded wonderful though it. Parasound JC-2 to me was even a little better, being a little smoother and transparent. Since you love audiophile review verbiage so much, let's just say both had a chocolaty midrange with excelled in all areas of PRAT.



One thing I like about the STP, despite never hearing it, is that it doesn't provide any gain if unnecessary, and the ladder style resistor volume control.


1) Most of our sources or DACs produce enough voltage to drive amps directly. Yet, our pre-amps create additional gain for no reason, only to throw it away with attenuators. Therefore, eliminating an active stage could yield increased transparency.


2) A completely passive pre-amp (just a volume control) can yield impedance problems. So in some cases, you need a buffer that does not provide any gain, but can help create a high input impedance and low output impedance situation.


3) Ladder and stepped attenuators are generally more transparent than the standard potentiometers that are in many high-end designs. Potentiometers also have worse channel tracking.



I am going to be making some DIY projects in the coming month to investigate the above. Basically my perfect pre-amp would be similar to the STP, but not having to pay for the active circuitry.


In terms of commercial offerings, the STP and JC2 are pretty good values at $1500-2500 used, as far as "hifi" gear goes anyway.


----------



## mpmct

The Benchmark DAC1/HDR ( preamp ) is so far past transparent my cat can't hear the difference. That's what he told me.

The guys at Benchmark told me by phone that they have constant inquiries: "When will you release a DAC ... "2"?

They are in a pickle, because short of features, there ain't nuttin' they can do to make their DAC or preamp ... 'better'.

There isn't better than transparent, unless you want your music colored in a fanciful, unique, and hi-end way -- totally out of your control after all.

Not to mention -- you'd be overriding then, the fine taste of the drug addicts who carefully mixed/mastered/macerated your favorite artists' work.










....


Passive crossovers are old technology. NASCAR uses carburetors.

They have their reasons, but they aren't about 'better'.

Find a carburetor on a modern car, or an Indy

or Formula 1 car. Fuel injection is better. Like active line-level xovers.

It's not mysterious, it's not subjective, it's just better in every way.


----------



## iove

Hey Tim,


You know I'm a Mac nut, but have you considered the MCD500 for a DAC? Consider it a DAC (ESS Sabre 24bit) with a bonus built in CD/SACD player. It is fully balanced from end to end and comes with a free built in pre-amp. Got really rave reviews, including a recent one from hometheaterhifi.com.


----------



## LostinLA

I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread. It mirrors a lot of my thoughts and experiences.


I was eyeing up the audio physic and have been weighing up the sim audio moon 350p with dac and phono option or the PWD for a pre-amp and dac solution.... amongst a few others.


Looking forward to hearing how the Virgo 25 sound. They look like a great compact 3 way speaker and the reviews of their speakers (such as in HiFi News) are positive. Many speakers that would sonically be in the ball park are much larger.


I've not been a sub fan with music to date and I've tried a few ( maybe it's my 805s).. Never seem to get that seamless integration.


I enjoyed the C1 dyn's with sim equipment. But didn't give them that much time as I have been convinced I need/want full range (read as floor stand) speakers. Maybe it's part of not feeling the love for the sub....


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LostinLA* /forum/post/19018710
> 
> 
> I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread. It mirrors a lot of my thoughts and experiences.
> 
> 
> I was eyeing up the audio physic and have been weighing up the sim audio moon 350p with dac and phono option or the PWD for a pre-amp and dac solution.... amongst a few others.
> 
> 
> Looking forward to hearing how the Virgo 25 sound. They look like a great compact 3 way speaker and the reviews of their speakers (such as in HiFi News) are positive. Many speakers that would sonically be in the ball park are much larger.
> 
> 
> I've not been a sub fan with music to date and I've tried a few ( maybe it's my 805s).. Never seem to get that seamless integration.
> 
> 
> I enjoyed the C1 dyn's with sim equipment. But didn't give them that much time as I have been convinced I need/want full range (read as floor stand) speakers. Maybe it's part of not feeling the love for the sub....



Welcome! Always good to have some fresh input.


Until I started using Room EQ Wizard and EQ to measure and EQ the in-room response of my system, good sub integration was near impossible. Until you can see what you are up against, it's like playing pin the tail on the donkey.


Frankly though, I think it is just as difficult to get good bass response from a pair of floorstanders as it is to integrate a sub/sat system. The room mucks things up just as much.


----------



## LostinLA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome! Always good to have some fresh input.
> 
> 
> Until I started using Room EQ Wizard and EQ to measure and EQ the in-room response of my system, good sub integration was near impossible. Until you can see what you are up against, it's like playing pin the tail on the donkey.
> 
> 
> Frankly though, I think it is just as difficult to get good bass response from a pair of floorstanders as it is to integrate a sub/sat system. The room mucks things up just as much.



Thank you!


I've had a velodynne dd12 on loan and used the bass eq that has and it certainly makes a huge difference. Room eq and treatment understood a bit. I was lucky enough to have some pmc pb1 on loan and they were awesome ... Very large though. I'd like to replicate that to some extent. They were no where near as punchy in my room as the shop, but more than adequate. Not a "designer" piece of furniture though in my smallish modern room ( looks are important)!.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LostinLA* /forum/post/19018851
> 
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> 
> I've had a velodynne dd12 on loan and used the bass eq that has and it certainly makes a huge difference. Room eq and treatment understood a bit. I was lucky enough to have some pmc pb1 on loan and they were awesome ... Very large though. I'd like to replicate that to some extent. They were no where near as punchy in my room as the shop, but more than adequate. Not a "designer" piece of furniture though in my smallish modern room ( looks are important)!.



The DD15 was very close to my first exposure to measuring / EQing, now that you mention it. The resolution on the read-out is a bit too low to be completely effective, but it is still much better than doing things by ear.


A friend in the UK, who also chose the Wilson Benesch Discovery as his current speaker, speaks very highly of the PMC PB1. In fact it was down to the WB and the PMC in his last audition.


As I'm sure you've gathered, I also place high value on aesthetics / design, so I get why the PMC's would not be your first choice. PMC just came out with the Fact.8 speaker line, which is much more handsome than anything else they've done. Thanks to the transmission line for the bass, even though they are slim floorstanders, they are spec'd to 28Hz. That's damn low for a pair of 5.5" mid/bas drivers!


----------



## LostinLA

The Fact8 are interesting and I've read plenty of interesting reviews. A little pricey in the US ( compared to the UK ) and a 2way speaker (2.5 way some might say). Nice looking... Deep box design .. Would like to see in person.


----------



## hifisponge




----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19019045



That looks great! I think this wait is driving you crazy. Between this photo shopped picture and the fact that you have unearthed every shot of the Virgo 25's in existence.


----------



## weird 23

Did you order just the towers? I assume they have a matching center, what would you use for surrounds?


----------



## CLS

Tim,


What is on the other end of the room? Any other possibility to better center the 2 speakers?


By the way, Chjo100's recommendations and experiences on the preamps and DACs are excellent. I almost bought the Weiss DAC2 a few years back, but decided to keep the MHDT tube DAC for a while and instead search for a new preamp with remote control as I am getting old and lazy, my old Sp9 without the remote is getting cumbersome.


Adding a tubed preamp or DAC would add a little bit of spice or coloration for a livelier sound which is nice to a certain extent IMO. Try different ones Tim, other than the ones you've tried IIRC (MSF DAC).


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19019045



This is nice work with the PS. It gives a much better perspective than what I had in mind. When I first saw the Virgo 25 in white that you posted, I thought Tim has finally gone over the deep end







....those speakers are going to overwhelm his very nice room. But, this PS picture puts it in perspective that it will look very much like some of your previous stand mounted speakers.


As always you pick some absolute gorgeous speakers....the black is worth the wait from the visual perspective alone.


----------



## vantagesc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19018799
> 
> 
> That certainly doesn't look like any Sonus Faber speaker I've seen before. Can't say that I like it, but it certainly is a change in direction for the company.
> 
> Price: 140,000 Euro (~$185,000)



I did not appreciate how huge these speakers are from the picture, as they look like average sized speakers. Turns out they are over 600 .lbs, in part because of the machined aluminum base and cap. Would love to see what the xover looks like.


The rear-firing drivers are interesting...basically looks like a little bookshelf speaker embedded in the back.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19020081
> 
> 
> That looks great! I think this wait is driving you crazy. Between this photo shopped picture and the fact that you have unearthed every shot of the Virgo 25's in existence.



Yeah, it's been a slow week.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ERAU23* /forum/post/19021008
> 
> 
> This is nice work with the PS. It gives a much better perspective than what I had in mind. When I first saw the Virgo 25 in white that you posted, I thought Tim has finally gone over the deep end
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....those speakers are going to overwhelm his very nice room. But, this PS picture puts it in perspective that it will look very much like some of your previous stand mounted speakers.
> 
> 
> As always you pick some absolute gorgeous speakers....the black is worth the wait from the visual perspective alone.



After going through several large speakers during my last speaker search, and realizing just how ridiculous they looked, I was very cautious about considering a tower speaker again. It can be hard to get a sense of the scale of a speaker from a picture. At just 41" tall and less than 9" wide, the Virgos have a foot print that is just about the same as the B&W 805's on stands. They may actually even be a bit smaller than in the mock up.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19016615
> 
> 
> I was fortunate early on to hear my speakers with equipment that matched well. I heard it via BAT Stereo Amp and BAT Tube CD Player in a well treated room so I had an idea of the potential sound I could achieve. BAT isn't uber expensive luxury equipment, but even with this pairing, I preferred the sound to some more expensive setups I compared with so I figured I would keep trying to work with the speakers I had until I was happy or reached it's potential and move onto another speaker. While I was trying out different processors, amps and dacs, I did occasionally bring in other speakers just to see how they sound with "better" electronics paired up with them. I can't argue with your method though after trying out different components and seeing how little it made a difference. Just recently I needed a longer power cord for my Plinius Odeon so I used the stock power cord that comes with my power conditioner (an extra APC H15) and I can't tell an iota of difference from my "audiophile" power cord. Also I got back my Plinius Odeon which weights 120 lbs, but can only tell a slight difference from the much cheaper and lighter (40lb) Plinius P10 I had. For me, source and speakers seem to account for the biggest change in sound.
> 
> 
> I'm using a First Sound tube preamp. In many ways so backwards. It has no remote control and its single ended. I keep trying to wean myself off of it by going to Amarra as preamp so I can sell the darn thing and fund some other projects, but the FS preamp seems to get the music just about where I like it so I haven't been able to part with it. So basically I go Mac Mini>Amarra Model4>FS Preamp>Plinius Odeon. Then I have ht processor go into five other channels in Odeon and I have two separate speaker cables go to left and right speaker. When I got multi channel I swap the left and right speaker cables. It's fairly cumbersome and not an elegant solution, thus not one I recommend.



Sorry for the slow response. I went out of town for few days.


I can see now why you went down the path that you did. It's good that you had that reference point.


I have come to appreciate the fine tuning that can be achieved through different electronics, but it still confuses me when I come across guys in the hobby that place electronics first, or those that claim that there was a "huge" improvement in this or that when they placed a new amp in their system. Now if they are going to tubes from SS, I can see that as resulting in a relatively signifcant change, but other than that, it is pretty subtle to these ears.


So any plans for your system in the near future?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/19020803
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> What is on the other end of the room? Any other possibility to better center the 2 speakers?
> 
> 
> By the way, Chjo100's recommendations and experiences on the preamps and DACs are excellent. I almost bought the Weiss DAC2 a few years back, but decided to keep the MHDT tube DAC for a while and instead search for a new preamp with remote control as I am getting old and lazy, my old Sp9 without the remote is getting cumbersome.
> 
> 
> Adding a tubed preamp or DAC would add a little bit of spice or coloration for a livelier sound which is nice to a certain extent IMO. Try different ones Tim, other than the ones you've tried IIRC (MSF DAC).




Hi Vin -


I'm afraid that the postion of the speakers is as good as it gets in this room. If I were to place the speakers at the other end of the room, the couch would block the garage and patio doors, and I would have no place to put the surround speakers. FWIW, the right wall has been acoustically treated to absorb the reflections from the right speaker, and with EQ, I can correct for imbalance in bass from that speaker. When it is all dialed in, the results are much better than you would think given the circumstances.


When the system gets settled again, I'll start looking into tubed DACs and Pres.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19030148
> 
> 
> Sorry for the slow response. I went out of town for few days.
> 
> 
> I can see now why you went down the path that you did. It's good that you had that reference point.
> 
> 
> I have come to appreciate the fine tuning that can be achieved through different electronics, but it still confuses me when I come across guys in the hobby that place electronics first, or those that claim that there was a "huge" improvement in this or that when they placed a new amp in their system. Now if they are going to tubes from SS, I can see that as resulting in a relatively signifcant change, but other than that, it is pretty subtle to these ears.
> 
> 
> So any plans for your system in the near future?



I pretty much agree. Not once did I experience a quantum leap in performance from an electronics change, despite what many reviewers say (this served as my early education that you just have to try in your home







Often times, after lugging a 100lb. amplifier or purchasing the next "giant killer" the difference was disappointing. However, when I had the Classe SSP I got a lower end Onkyo pre/pro to try just out of curiosity. I think the difference was certainly appreciable in favor of the Classe and one most people noticed. One exception, and I guess it's not electronics, is that I did get a "huge" change when I purchased acoustic panels, and some bass traps. Although this was much more pronounced when I moved back into my tiny room. Glare removed, and this bloated bass tightened up considerably. No amp ever did that for me







But I digress, I know you of all people appreciate the profound effects of eq and room treatments.


I would say I don't even see huge differences between speakers once you get to a certain level, say something like the higher end Paradigm floor standing speakers compared to a megabuck Wilson speaker. Some setups have wowed me but I think this is based largely on the associated equipment and how well the room was treated plus my mood when auditioning.


The value of subtle changes is probably in the eye of the beholder, but I found myself at one point going, yes I'm very happy with where I'm at. But income willing I would be willing to spend disproportionately for small incremental improvements. Heck, if I had the money I probably would spring for the mega buck speakers and electronics, even if the difference is small. Besides the cool factor of shiny pretty audio toys, the ability to get closer to the music and get more immersed in a movie to me is such a worthwhile expenditure, certainly much more satisfying to me than expensive watches, designer jeans etc...


No changes planned. In fact, I planned on getting mono or stereo amps again, but probably won't. I would be interested in converting my speakers to a active crossover, but that would only happen if I had a house with a separate space for 2 channel vs home theater.


FWIW, I think your revolving door of speakers must be more gratifying and effective in terms of achieving noticeable differences in sound. Plus nothing more exciting than getting a pair of new speakers!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19030744
> 
> 
> I pretty much agree. Not once did I experience a quantum leap in performance from an electronics change, despite what many reviewers say (this served as my early education that you just have to try in your home
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Often times, after lugging a 100lb. amplifier or purchasing the next "giant killer" the difference was disappointing. However, when I had the Classe SSP I got a lower end Onkyo pre/pro to try just out of curiosity. I think the difference was certainly appreciable in favor of the Classe and one most people noticed.



Likewise, when I listened to the Denon AVR2810 in the cheap room at Magnolia AV, it was clearly not as natural sounding as the Denon AVR5308 or Arcam in the mid-fi room next to it. However, the difference between the Denon AVR5308 and the Primare separates was more subtle.



> Quote:
> I would say I don't even see huge differences between speakers once you get to a certain level, say something like the higher end Paradigm floor standing speakers compared to a megabuck Wilson speaker. Some setups have wowed me but I think this is based largely on the associated equipment and how well the room was treated plus my mood when auditioning.



I agree in a sense. I think that there is certainly a point of diminishing returns with speakers that probably starts around the Paradigm Studio / Sig level, but then it starts to get weird. It's almost like the higher you go, the more personality and more colorful the speaker is. There are some no nonsense designs in the high-end, but there is generally more thinking along the lines of "we have to do something really special / the speaker has to stand out". So you see more risk-taking and more esoteric design concepts that by their very nature deviate from neutral more than the top upper mid-fi offerings. Or, you get into the territory of what I consider accurate to a fault, with laser-like precision that virtually no recording can stand up to. This is when you start to feel the *need* for tubed gear, just to take the edge off and make the system listenable again.



> Quote:
> The value of subtle changes is probably in the eye of the beholder, but I found myself at one point going, yes I'm very happy with where I'm at. But income willing I would be willing to spend disproportionately for small incremental improvements. Heck, if I had the money I probably would spring for the mega buck speakers and electronics, even if the difference is small. Besides the cool factor of shiny pretty audio toys, the ability to get closer to the music and get more immersed in a movie to me is such a worthwhile expenditure, certainly much more satisfying to me than expensive watches, designer jeans etc...



You pretty much just summed up my rational for my last system build. "I know I don't *need* a system this expensive, but it is an extravagance that I *choose* to spend my money on." I wanted a system that screamed high-end the moment you looked at it. The hard part was picking components that sounded as good as they looked. And as I'm finding out again, it still is.












> Quote:
> FWIW, I think your revolving door of speakers must be more gratifying and effective in terms of achieving noticeable differences in sound. Plus nothing more exciting than getting a pair of new speakers!



It would be a whole lot more fun if the wait weren't so damn long between each set.


----------



## iove




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19031168
> 
> 
> This is when you start to feel the *need* for tubed gear, just to take the edge off and make the system listenable again.



Then you will start on a new tube-rolling quest, as there are differences between brands and models. I can offer up my preamp if you ever want to audition one in home. The fun just never seems to stop. How did you find the Virgo 25? Sorry if I missed in a previous post.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iove* /forum/post/19039502
> 
> 
> Then you will start on a new tube-rolling quest, as there are differences between brands and models. I can offer up my preamp if you ever want to audition one in home. The fun just never seems to stop. How did you find the Virgo 25? Sorry if I missed in a previous post.



Once I get my system settled to a point that I've got some baseline satisfaction, I would like to take you up on your offer to try out your preamp. You can bring over a few different sets of tubes and we can make an afternoon of it.










In regards to speaker choices, at this point, since I've listened to everything of interest locally, I'm just trying out models / brands that seem like they would be a good fit for me. The AP Virgo 25's are one of many calculated risks that I've taken over the past few years. I've been curious about the AP line for a while now because they place an emphasis on soundstage and imaging, which are aspects of sound that I value, and the reports on their current designs seem to indicate that are forgiving yet still detailed. Their driver tech and their efforts to decouple all of the various vibrating parts from the cabinet is also intriguing.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iove* /forum/post/19039502
> 
> 
> Then you will start on a new tube-rolling quest, as there are differences between brands and models. I can offer up my preamp if you ever want to audition one in home. The fun just never seems to stop. How did you find the Virgo 25? Sorry if I missed in a previous post.



Hi Iove


What DAC are you using with your tube preamp?


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19039971
> 
> 
> Once I get my system settled to a point that I've got some baseline satisfaction, I would like to take you up on your offer to try out your preamp. You can bring over a few different sets of tubes and we can make an afternoon of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In regards to speaker choices, at this point, since I've listened to everything of interest locally, I'm just trying out models / brands that seem like they would be a good fit for me. The AP Virgo 25's are one of many calculated risks that I've taken over the past few years. I've been curious about the AP line for a while now because they place an emphasis on soundstage and imaging, which are aspects of sound that I value, and the reports on their current designs seem to indicate that are forgiving yet still detailed. Their driver tech and their efforts to decouple all of the various vibrating parts from the cabinet is also intriguing.



Preamp shootout? sounds like fun! I have to warn you though, listening to a dedicated tube stereo preamp with a high quality dac, is a dangerous road to travel. Like the Sasha, Audio Research room, it might just ruin you


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19040333
> 
> 
> Preamp shootout? sounds like fun! I have to warn you though, listening to a dedicated tube stereo preamp with a high quality dac, is a dangerous road to travel. Like the Sasha, Audio Research room, it might just ruin you



No worries. If I can get great sound from a SS multichannel solution, it would be fine to take that to "outstanding" with a tubed piece for 2CH. But what I can't do is have a system that is annoying with SS and magical with tubes. There needs to be a baseline of quality with SS gear first.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19020252
> 
> 
> Did you order just the towers? I assume they have a matching center, what would you use for surrounds?



Sorry, I missed this post.


Yes, just the V25's on order now. If those cut the mustard (what a strange phrase that is), then I'll order the Celcius center and Step monitors. The Celcius uses the same drivers as in the V25, and the Steps use the same midrange, but a different tweeter. The Steps are a bit more of a compromise than I would normally make, but since the midrange is more important than the tweeter for tonal matching, I'm not too concerned about it.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19040403
> 
> 
> Sorry, I missed this post.
> 
> 
> Yes, just the V25's on order now. If those cut the mustard (what a strange phrase that is), then I'll order the Celcius center and Step monitors. The Celcius uses the same drivers as in the V25, and the Steps use the same midrange, but a different tweeter. The Steps are a bit more of a compromise than I would normally make, but since the midrange is more important than the tweeter for tonal matching, I'm not too concerned about it.



No worries, I'm looking forward to your thoughts on these speakers. I need a little advice from you, this may seem kind of backwards but here goes. I recently picked up a power amp, the Anthem MCA 50. I don`t know yet if I`ll keep it long term yet but I got it for such a good price that it won`t be any trouble to sell it for the same price if I decide I don`t like it. I`ve had it for about a week and I`ve been switching my mains between the Studio 100`s and the Studio 20`s. The 20`s raelly benefited from the power amp and they sound great. I need to do some more listening but so far I like the 20`s better than the 100`s, except for the transition to the sub. For stereo listening I prefer the 20`s but when the sub is added the 100`s pull ahead, with the 100`s the sub is seamlessly intergrated. The 20`s seem like there is a bit of a hole and you can tell when the sub is on, where as with the 100`s 90% of the time you can`t even tell it`s on. I`m using the Perfect Bass Kit to calibrate the sub, so I have measurements to tell me where the best spot for the sub is. I`ve moved that sub all over the room and measured it about 40 times, the sub is the Paradigm Sub 15. After running the PBK I use MCACC in my Pioneer SC-07 and switch all the speakers to small and 80hz crossover. Do you have any tips on better sub intergration with bookshelves vs towers. If I can get the sub intergration better I may sell the towers and center and move up to the Sigs. Thanks.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19042212
> 
> 
> No worries, I'm looking forward to your thoughts on these speakers. I need a little advice from you, this may seem kind of backwards but here goes. I recently picked up a power amp, the Anthem MCA 50. I don`t know yet if I`ll keep it long term yet but I got it for such a good price that it won`t be any trouble to sell it for the same price if I decide I don`t like it. I`ve had it for about a week and I`ve been switching my mains between the Studio 100`s and the Studio 20`s. The 20`s raelly benefited from the power amp and they sound great. I need to do some more listening but so far I like the 20`s better than the 100`s, except for the transition to the sub. For stereo listening I prefer the 20`s but when the sub is added the 100`s pull ahead, with the 100`s the sub is seamlessly intergrated. The 20`s seem like there is a bit of a hole and you can tell when the sub is on, where as with the 100`s 90% of the time you can`t even tell it`s on. I`m using the Perfect Bass Kit to calibrate the sub, so I have measurements to tell me where the best spot for the sub is. I`ve moved that sub all over the room and measured it about 40 times, the sub is the Paradigm Sub 15. After running the PBK I use MCACC in my Pioneer SC-07 and switch all the speakers to small and 80hz crossover. Do you have any tips on better sub intergration with bookshelves vs towers. If I can get the sub intergration better I may sell the towers and center and move up to the Sigs. Thanks.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the PBK and the MMAC are auto-EQs? If yes, I have yet to find an auto EQ that does the job to my full satisfaction.


The first step to better sub integration is to get the ability to read the in-room response of the sub and main speakers. I recommend Room EQ Wizard. I can give you the full list of equipment you need to take the measurements with the REW software. The total cost is around $250 for the mic, mic preamp, cabling, etc. Once you have the tools, I can walk you through how to use it over the phone, and I can help you interpret the results.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19042460
> 
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the PBK and the MMAC are auto-EQs? If yes, I have yet to find an auto EQ that does the job to my full satisfaction.
> 
> 
> The first step to better sub integration is to get the ability to read the in-room response of the sub and main speakers. I recommend Room EQ Wizard. I can give you the full list of equipment you need to take the measurements with the REW software. The total cost is around $250 for the mic, mic preamp, cabling, etc. Once you have the tools, I can walk you through how to use it over the phone, and I can help you interpret the results.



The PBK shows you what the sub is doing in the room but doesn't allow any adjustments. MCACC is adjustable but you don't have any way to verify the changes beyond using your ears. You can hook up the receiver to your computer for more advanced functions but right now I can only find the french manual. I'll look for it again tommorrow and thanks for the offer


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19042641
> 
> 
> The PBK shows you what the sub is doing in the room but doesn't allow any adjustments. MCACC is adjustable but you don't have any way to verify the changes beyond using your ears. You can hook up the receiver to your computer for more advanced functions but right now I can only find the french manual. I'll look for it again tommorrow and thanks for the offer



OK, I found a screen shot of the PBK read out, and it is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't look like you can measure your main speakers + sub at the same time. If you are trying to get a good blend between the sub and mains, you need to be able to see how the two are interacting. Then you fiddle with the crossover point, the phase / polarity, and the level until the sound gels.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19044168
> 
> 
> OK, I found a screen shot of the PBK read out, and it is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't look like you can measure your main speakers + sub at the same time. If you are trying to get a good blend between the sub and mains, you need to be able to see how the two are interacting. Then you fiddle with the crossover point, the phase / polarity, and the level until the sound gels.



No you cannot, but I guess that's what REW is for. I can't find the manual for the advanced MCACC functions, I'll have to order another one. I don't have any problems with the towers and the sub, just the boolshelves. I have been considering selling the towers and getting the Paradigm Signature S2 v3 and the C3 v3. I love the large Studio center I have now but the don't think the C5 is needed with the S2's. Most of the time I read about people always wanting to go from stand mount speakers to towers but every really good audio expereince I've had in my home with my gear has always been with bookshelves. I'm discovering I just may not be a tower speaker guy or haven't bought the right ones yet. It would be great if you could give an equipment list for REW, before I sell any gear I want to do some more comparision with the best sub intergration I can get.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19046480
> 
> 
> No you cannot, but I guess that's what REW is for. I can't find the manual for the advanced MCACC functions, I'll have to order another one. I don't have any problems with the towers and the sub, just the boolshelves. I have been considering selling the towers and getting the Paradigm Signature S2 v3 and the C3 v3. I love the large Studio center I have now but the don't think the C5 is needed with the S2's. Most of the time I read about people always wanting to go from stand mount speakers to towers but every really good audio expereince I've had in my home with my gear has always been with bookshelves. I'm discovering I just may not be a tower speaker guy or haven't bought the right ones yet. It would be great if you could give an equipment list for REW, before I sell any gear I want to do some more comparision with the best sub intergration I can get.



There is undoubtedly going to be a difference in the way the the towers and the monitors roll off in the bass and probably the phase of the output near the crossover point, which would account for the differences when trying to bend the sub.


You'll get no argument from me for going to with monitors / sub. That is my preferred config. The main reason that I'm going with the tower from Audio Physic is because AP doesn't make a high-performance monitor. There are also some benefits from going with a true 3 way, like lower intermodulation distortion through the midrange, which can result in a clearer and less congested sound with complex music, and/or at high volumes.


Below is everything you need to get up and running with REW. Keep in mind, this is not a plug and play program and it will take some effort and time to learn how to use it. If you want plug-n-play, buy the "XTZ Room Analyzer". http://www.xtz.se/uk/products/mearur.../room-analyzer 


1. Download Room EQ Wizard for free.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/ 


2. Buy the "Basic +" model of this calibrated microphone:

http://cross-spectrum.com/measuremen...behringer.html 


3. Buy this microphone preamp:

http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Mobile.../dp/B0000TP57E 


4. Get a mic stand, with a telescoping arm, like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Stage-Spotligh...7372345&sr=1-1 


5. Buy a 30 - 50 foot XLR mic cable:

http://www.amazon.com/NADY-XC-50-XLR...7372458&sr=1-5 


6. Get an RCA to 1/4 inch phono cable (this one is used to send the test signal to your sound system):

http://www.amazon.com/HOSA-CPR204-Du...7372678&sr=1-6 


Total investment: around $250 for very competent sound analysis tool. The Room EQ Wizard software is phenomenal, and there is a large support group on http://www.hometheatershack.com/ 


To buy the XTZ Room Analyzer, you need to order it directly from XTZ in Sweden by following these directions:


International orders

You can order by sending an email to: [email protected] 

Please state your:

name

address

country

phone number

and the products you wish to purchase

They will email you the total cost (including shipping) and explain how payment is made.


----------



## weird 23

I take it from your response that you think REW is the better of the two. What are the benefits of REW over XTZ? Would adding a second sub be beneficial when using bookshelves vs towers? From the pictures it looks like your new speakers have powered subs, do you think that will make it harder or easier to intergrate in your room? I've decided to wait and see how the new models of processors pan out before buying one.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19046869
> 
> 
> I take it from your response that you think REW is the better of the two. What are the benefits of REW over XTZ? Would adding a second sub be beneficial when using bookshelves vs towers? From the pictures it looks like your new speakers have powered subs, do you think that will make it harder or easier to intergrate in your room? I've decided to wait and see how the new models of processors pan out before buying one.



XTZ is a good product, it just isn't as deep or flexible in what it allows you to measure. REW is super deep, but there is a learning curve to getting what you want out of it. With a phone call, I could get you up and running in a much shorter time. If you go with REW, just let me know when you have all the gear, and we can arrange a time to speak.


No powered subs on the AP speakers. Just a pair of passive 7" bass drivers. I'm confident that with REW and EQ I can get the bass right in my room. I've got quite a bit of experience at it now.


I hope to order my NAD M15HD by the end of the month.


Which models do you have your eyes on? Still the Marantz 8003 replacement? Anything else?


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19046908
> 
> 
> XTZ is a good product, it just isn't as deep or flexible in what it allows you to measure. REW is super deep, but there is a learning curve to getting what you want out of it. With a phone call, I could get you up and running in a much shorter time. If you go with REW, just let me know when you have all the gear, and we can arrange a time to speak.
> 
> 
> No powered subs on the AP speakers. Just a pair of passive 7" bass drivers. I'm confident that with REW and EQ I can get the bass right in my room. I've got quite a bit of experience at it now.
> 
> 
> I hope to order my NAD M15HD by the end of the month.
> 
> 
> Which models do you have your eyes on? Still the Marantz 8003 replacement? Anything else?



I read somewhere that Nad has a new firmware update for the M15HD and wanted to see if that finally fixed some of the remaining bugs, still watching this one. There has been talk of the new Audyssey XT 32 being included with the Marantz AV7005, they're supposed to announce the 8003 replacement in the spring. I've thought about trying one of the Anthem receivers as a processor and to run my surround backs. I don't know if I can wait until the spring for the Marantz, I'm not very good at waiting that long. I'm not sure if I'm going to keep the Anthem amp I bought, I'll give it some more time to reach a final verdict. Do you think the amp or pre makes a bigger difference in the sound? Right now I have the Anthem hooked up to my Marantz PM8003 and it sounds better than the Pioneer. Going back to NAD are you? Are you ordering the amp as well? The next three weeks or so will be really busy for me, so I may not have time to start with REW yet. After that I should be good to go though, so I'll let you know when I'm ready. Thanks for the advice and offer of help.


----------



## weird 23

I forgot to ask, what are you doing with the Denon and the Dyn's?


----------



## hifisponge

Really, so the 7005 is supposed to have the XT32? I wouldn't have expected that for a mid-line processor. I would think that the processing requirements for Xt32 would be too great.


My personal experience is that the pre matters more than the amp. Frankly I don't know if I've heard any differences between amps.


I did not care for the Anthem D2 sound. A bit too sharp and dry. Not on a "I can't listen to this" level, but I've heard others, like the NAD that I like more. It sounded a lot like a 43XX Denon that I owned before I bought it.


The Denon will go on Agon, and I'l keep the Dyns until I get a good listen to the Virgos. The loser goes on Agon.










I haven't dug too deeply into bugs with the NAD, what's remaining?


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19047343
> 
> 
> Really, so the 7005 is supposed to have the XT32? I wouldn't have expected that for a mid-line processor. I would think that the processing requirements for Xt32 would be too great.
> 
> 
> My personal experience is that the pre matters more than the amp. Frankly I don't know if I've heard any differences between amps.
> 
> 
> I did not care for the Anthem D2 sound. A bit too sharp and dry. Not on a "I can't listen to this" level, but I've heard others, like the NAD that I like more. It sounded a lot like a 43XX Denon that I owned before I bought it.
> 
> 
> The Denon will go on Agon, and I'l keep the Dyns until I get a good listen to the Virgos. The loser goes on Agon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't dug too deeply into bugs with the NAD, what's remaining?



No 1080/24 pass through, it converts everything to 1080/60. That's the only thing I can remember off the top of my head, I'll look for the info again. It's just rumors right now about the XT32, nothing official. Are you getting the M25 as well or something else? So far the Anthem MCA 50 has been great for the 20's but seems to be lacking a little bit for the 100's. The 690 center can take quite a bit of power too, in fact more than I have to give it. That's just what I think anyway. Using the 20's the power seems effortless but with the 100's and 690 it doesn't have the same effect. It can seem strained alot easier when being pushed. Sometimes I really like to listen LOUD and what I'm after is for it to seem effortless at any volume I choose, the MCA seems strained when the mood strikes. It seems like the amp is running out of steam before the speakers. I've never boughten anything from Audiogon before, shipping to Canada seems to be a problem for most. I tried to buy a Parasound amp on there before but the seller wouldn't ship to Canada. We have Canuck Audio Mart but the selection is alot smaller than Agon. What do you think of the Wyred 4 Sound amps? If the Anthem doesn't stay I've been thinking of trying one, a big plus is they have a Canadian distributor.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19047400
> 
> 
> No 1080/24 pass through, it converts everything to 1080/60. That's the only thing I can remember off the top of my head, I'll look for the info again. It's just rumors right now about the XT32, nothing official. Are you getting the M25 as well or something else? So far the Anthem MCA 50 has been great for the 20's but seems to be lacking a little bit for the 100's. The 690 center can take quite a bit of power too, in fact more than I have to give it. That's just what I think anyway. Using the 20's the power seems effortless but with the 100's and 690 it doesn't have the same effect. It can seem strained alot easier when being pushed. Sometimes I really like to listen LOUD and what I'm after is for it to seem effortless at any volume I choose, the MCA seems strained when the mood strikes. It seems like the amp is running out of steam before the speakers. I've never boughten anything from Audiogon before, shipping to Canada seems to be a problem for most. I tried to buy a Parasound amp on there before but the seller wouldn't ship to Canada. We have Canuck Audio Mart but the selection is alot smaller than Agon. What do you think of the Wyred 4 Sound amps? If the Anthem doesn't stay I've been thinking of trying one, a big plus is they have a Canadian distributor.



I'm not concerned with the lack of 1080/24 pass through. I'm used to and fine with conversion to 60FPS.


I plan to go with the M25. I'd like to have a 7CH amp, and I like my components to match.


I've never really run into problems with a lack of power. How do you know it is the MCA and not the speakers that are giving out at high volume? Seems to me you would only know if you had a more powerful amp to compare it to. Or I suppose you could cross over the 100's to a sub to take the strain off the amp to see if the sound improves


I've stumbled across Canuck Mart a few times while researching product.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19047512
> 
> 
> I'm not concerned with the lack of 1080/24 pass through. I'm used to and fine with conversion to 60FPS.
> 
> 
> I plan to go with the M25. I'd like to have a 7CH amp, and I like my components to match.
> 
> 
> I've never really run into problems with a lack of power. How do you know it is the MCA and not the speakers that are giving out at high volume? Seems to me you would only know if you had a more powerful amp to compare it to. Or I suppose you could cross over the 100's to a sub to take the strain off the amp to see if the sound improves
> 
> 
> I've stumbled across Canuck Mart a few times while researching product.



Good point, a friend of mine has a P5 that I'll have to borrow and find out.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19047529
> 
> 
> Good point, a friend of mine has a P5 that I'll have to borrow and find out.



Let me know how it goes.


BTW - A couple of friends of mine tried the W4S amps, and didn't much care for them. They said that they found them forward and brash. As with anything though, this is a small sample, and you may find that they sound great.


----------



## weird 23

Seeing your post in the Monitor Audio thread jogged my memory about Parasound amps. I've been thinking of getting one of the Halo amps for my two channel system and noticed that they claim to run in Class A for the first 5-20 watts depending on the model. Have you heard a Class A amp before? Do you think there are any benefits of this over the other designs for a strictly two channel system? I've never heard a Class A amp before and don't have a Parasound dealer in my city, so I can't easily find out. I don't plan on getting one for at least a year so maybe in my travels I could find one to listen to.


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19050242
> 
> 
> Seeing your post in the Monitor Audio thread jogged my memory about Parasound amps. I've been thinking of getting one of the Halo amps for my two channel system and noticed that they claim to run in Class A for the first 5-20 watts depending on the model. Have you heard a Class A amp before? Do you think there are any benefits of this over the other designs for a strictly two channel system? I've never heard a Class A amp before and don't have a Parasound dealer in my city, so I can't easily find out. I don't plan on getting one for at least a year so maybe in my travels I could find one to listen to.



Check Audio Advisor for Parasound. they often have Demos, open boxes, and refurbs, all with full 5 year warranty, at substantial savings--plus a 30 day no questions asked return policy if you're not happy. Great place to deal with.


----------



## Davidt1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/16276685
> 
> 
> I'm in the video game biz, so it only seemed appropriate to have a room dedicated to staying up on my company's product and to perform "competitive market analysis".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I managed to squeeze a 5.1 system into a 10 x 10 foot spare bedroom, and you know what? It sounds amazing! Having each speaker under five feet away from you really creates an immersive surround sound field. It was tough finding small speakers that met my expectations though. I was originally going to go with a cheap HTIB solution, but they all sounded shrill. However, the moment I heard the Monitor Audio Radius speakers, I knew that I couldn't settle for less. These are just fantastic little speakers.
> 
> 
> One last thing. What they say about square rooms is true. They wreak havoc on sound quality. When I first set-up the sub in this room, there was a huge peak in the upper bass that made the sound very woofy and boomy. The only way to get the sound in check was to add a Velodyne SMS-1 EQ to the system. I ended up having to put a -12 dB filter at 70Hz to even things out.



Thanks for this amazing thread! Your impressions on various speakers are very informative. Your smaller, secondary system is of great interest to me, as I am considering buying Monitor Audio speakers for a small 10' x 11' bedroom setup. Is the center speaker the Radius 180? I am thinking of getting 3 Radius 180 for L/C/R. My concern is the 4'' driver might be too small for even frequency distribution between speakers and sub.


I know it's your gaming system, but are these speakers good for music and movies too? Thanks again for the great thread. I bookmarked it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davidt1* /forum/post/19052130
> 
> 
> Thanks for this amazing thread! Your impressions on various speakers are very informative. Your smaller, secondary system is of great interest to me, as I am considering buying Monitor Audio speakers for a small 10' x 11' bedroom setup. Is the center speaker the Radius 180? I am thinking of getting 3 Radius 180 for L/C/R. My concern is the 4'' driver might be too small for even frequency distribution between speakers and sub.
> 
> 
> I know it's your gaming system, but are these speakers good for music and movies too? Thanks again for the great thread. I bookmarked it.



I think the Radius series of speakers are great, though I have to admit, the single driver models like the R90 and R180 do have to be crossed over at around 100 to 120Hz to get them to blend with the sub. I would not recommend placing a sub that is crossed over this high in the back of the room.


With that said, these little guys will play more than loud enough in a bedroom your size. Mine is about the same, and I crank the sound when gaming in there. And yes, I like the Radius as much for music as for games / movies. I wouldn't buy a speaker that didn't.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19050242
> 
> 
> Seeing your post in the Monitor Audio thread jogged my memory about Parasound amps. I've been thinking of getting one of the Halo amps for my two channel system and noticed that they claim to run in Class A for the first 5-20 watts depending on the model. Have you heard a Class A amp before? Do you think there are any benefits of this over the other designs for a strictly two channel system? I've never heard a Class A amp before and don't have a Parasound dealer in my city, so I can't easily find out. I don't plan on getting one for at least a year so maybe in my travels I could find one to listen to.



I've had three Class A amps. The Halo, and two Classe amps. If I were you, I would go with MoonHawk's advice and try the Parasound in your home on a 30 trial, as I find the differences between amps to be small enough that you really need to hear them with your system so you have a reference point.


----------



## ddingle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19047343
> 
> 
> Really, so the 7005 is supposed to have the XT32? I wouldn't have expected that for a mid-line processor. I would think that the processing requirements for Xt32 would be too great.
> 
> 
> My personal experience is that the pre matters more than the amp. Frankly I don't know if I've heard any differences between amps.
> 
> 
> I did not care for the Anthem D2 sound. A bit too sharp and dry. Not on a "I can't listen to this" level, but I've heard others, like the NAD that I like more. It sounded a lot like a 43XX Denon that I owned before I bought it.
> 
> 
> The Denon will go on Agon, and I'l keep the Dyns until I get a good listen to the Virgos. The loser goes on Agon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't dug too deeply into bugs with the NAD, what's remaining?



I believe a highlight of Audyssey XT 32 is not using any additional bandwidth than the original Audyssey?

I have asked Bob Moran at NAD to suggest to the powers that be to add a XT32 DSP card for the M15HD. A couple of our clients would be all over it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddingle* /forum/post/19091987
> 
> 
> I believe a highlight of Audyssey XT 32 is not using any additional bandwidth than the original Audyssey?
> 
> I have asked Bob Moran at NAD to suggest to the powers that be to add a XT32 DSP card for the M15HD. A couple of our clients would be all over it.



Very cool. I hope NAD does that at some point. It will be interesting to see how well NAD supports the card based architecture of their systems in the future. They've already done more than most other companies that took a similar approach, like the Integra from a few years back.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *V3!* /forum/post/19110148
> 
> 
> This is another reason why I like audio so much compared to other hobbies like computer hardware. There are so many different (unknown) brands on the market that make excellent products, and you don't have to buy the major brands to get the best audio quality around.
> 
> 
> But you probably already know this, since you're trying out a lot of speakers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



That's a great attitude. When I first got into the hobby, I remember being very resistant to brands I didn't know. When shopping for my first set of surround speakers, the salesman was trying to introduce me to brands like KEF, Infinity, and NHT. At the time, if I hadn't seen an ad for a brand in one of the HT mags, I didn't want to take a risk on it.


So do you have any speakers in particular that you have your eye on? What do you own now?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *V3!* /forum/post/19110495
> 
> 
> I have my own thread in this section, I will put in my signature
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Don't expect too much though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



No judgement from me. I had a very humble start in this hobby, and what you see now is the result of 15 years of me trying to outdo myself.


----------



## ribkin

This thread is like a forum inside a forum.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ribkin* /forum/post/19115542
> 
> 
> This thread is like a forum inside a forum.



Glad you stopped in. Feel free to contribute any time.


----------



## cavchameleon

Wow, just read this thread. Those are GEORGEOUS! Like to see it in you actual room to have a sense of size (and of course, your opinion on how it sounds). Congrats!


----------



## hifisponge

Hi V3,


Yeah, despite the large number of speakers I go through, the wait never easy. I deleted the last post because it seemed a bit too desperate, and I figured I could reclaim some of my diginity by yanking it before anyone noticed. Since the cat is out of the bag, I might as well post the pics from that deleted post, since everyone loves speaker porn!





































The good news is that the speakers have shipped from the dealer and if all goes well, I should have them by the end of next week. I'd get them sooner if we didn't have this damn Labor Day holiday mucking things up.










The thought of returning to the Classe has crossed my mind more than once, but I had a very good experience with the NAD Master series M15 a few years back and now that they've updated it with HD audio decoding and EQ, I'm going to give it a shot first.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *V3!* /forum/post/19143155
> 
> 
> Oh, I'm sorry if you felt like I forced you into re-posting that, not my intention.
> 
> 
> About the NAD pre-pro, are you also going for the matching M25 NAD 7-channel amplifier? If you are planning to get that amplifier, maybe it's a possibility to get a 5-channel amplifier from another brand since you are only utilizing 5 out of the 7-channels anyway.
> 
> 
> Or maybe even get a stereo amplifier for the left and right front speakers, those are the most important speakers when it comes to music after all. That way you can go with a lesser amplifier for the other 3-channels.
> 
> 
> I know that you said that most solid state amplifiers sound more the same than they differ from each other, but I'm just throwing it out there as a possibility
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



No big deal on the re-post. I just didn't want to wear everyone out with my constant barrage of Virgo 25 posts and pics.










Yup, I'll pick up the M25 amp too. I'll use the extra two channels for a couple of in-ceiling speakers in my living room. I've been through many high-performance amps, and based on those experiences, I feel no need to go with something separate for the L/R speakers. Besides the M25 puts out more power into 2CH, than it does when all channels are being used, so it's like a "better" amp when listening in stereo.


----------



## ultra 150 pilot

Tim, have you considered the ada?, seems to be getting a lot of attention over at the 20k forum


----------



## adidino




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ultra 150 pilot* /forum/post/19151214
> 
> 
> Tim, have you considered the ada?, seems to be getting a lot of attention over at the 20k forum



Not sure why to be honest... It's a couple of the guys on the forum spreading the buzz. I haven't heard it yet but I would be surprised if it competes with the Classe but the biggest advantage it does have is the auto room eq.


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/19151251
> 
> 
> Not sure why to be honest... It's a couple of the guys on the forum spreading the buzz. I haven't heard it yet but I would be surprised if it competes with the Classe but the biggest advantage it does have is the auto room eq.



ADA does not currently have auto room EQ. They just released a stand alone Trinnov solution, and there is talk of incorporating it into their processor, but not available now.


It is apparently a tweaker's delight, but not for the faint of heart. Designed for factory trained custom install.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ultra 150 pilot* /forum/post/19151214
> 
> 
> Tim, have you considered the ada?, seems to be getting a lot of attention over at the 20k forum





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/19151251
> 
> 
> Not sure why to be honest... It's a couple of the guys on the forum spreading the buzz. I haven't heard it yet but I would be surprised if it competes with the Classe but the biggest advantage it does have is the auto room eq.



I've been following that thread over in the 20K forum, and I don't really understand why the piece is getting the attention. I think much of the buzz around it is only because there are so few choices out for high-end prepros. It certainly looks like a has some good flexibility and features for those with dedicated HT rooms, but I don't see anything about it so far that makes it a must have. Not even the Trinnov EQ since I don't know what sort of user control there will be over the outcome of the auto-cal. One thing is for sure, it is going to be a tough sell to me because I like show pieces, and the ADA just ain't much to look at.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/19151627
> 
> 
> ADA does not currently have auto room EQ. They just released a stand alone Trinnov solution, and there is talk of incorporating it into their processor, but not available now.
> 
> 
> It is apparently a tweaker's delight, but not for the faint of heart. Designed for factory trained custom install.



The ADA does have EQ, just not the Trinnov solution yet.


From the features list on the ADA website:

Dolby TrueHD & DTS HD Master Audio

Multi-Channel (192KHz/24 Bit) PCM Audio

Full 7.1 EX/ES, THX Ultra 2, Dolby Pro Logic IIx, DTS Neo 6

8 HDMI Inputs with HDMI Equalization Settings per input

2 (Dual) Mirror HDMI Outputs with HDMI Equalization Settings
Parametric Multi-Band Equalizer

8 Stereo Analog Audio Inputs

6 Digital Audio Coaxial Inputs

2 TOS-Link Optical Digital Audio Inputs

8 Channel DVD Audio/SACD Input With Bass Filters

8 Composite Video Inputs

8 S-Video Inputs

8 Component Video Inputs

Analog And Digital Audio Record Outputs (2nd Zone)

2 Main And 2 Record (2nd Zone) Composite Video Outputs

2 Main Component Video Outputs

Rear Panel Ethernet Connection (ADA Net)

2 Programmable Low Voltage Output Triggers

ADA MX-900 (Universal Remote Control) Included At No Additional Charge

90-260Volts AC 50/60Hz 40 Watts

23 lbs 3.5"H x 19"W x 17.5"D


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19151731
> 
> 
> The ADA does have EQ, just not the Trinnov solution yet.
> 
> 
> From the features list on the ADA website:
> Parametric Multi-Band Equalizer



Quite true, but it is anything but "auto", which was my point.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/19153334
> 
> 
> Quite true, but it is anything but "auto", which was my point.



No worries. I only hope that if / when they release the Trinnov option, that they include some sort of manual control over the end result. Auto EQ rarely delivers the magic bullet promised.


----------



## ultra 150 pilot

what about the B&k ref 70, I owned the ref 50 at one point, very nice sound quality. It wasnt the best for 2 channel but Ive heard the 70 is better


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ultra 150 pilot* /forum/post/19153924
> 
> 
> what about the B&k ref 70, I owned the ref 50 at one point, very nice sound quality. It wasnt the best for 2 channel but Ive heard the 70 is better



Doesn't it lack HD audio processing and EQ?


----------



## ultra 150 pilot

not sure, I havent really followed up with the specs.


boy there are not really a lot of current pre pros available out there!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ultra 150 pilot* /forum/post/19154171
> 
> 
> not sure, I havent really followed up with the specs.
> 
> 
> boy there are not really a lot of current pre pros available out there!



Here's a great thread on the subject of current and upcoming prepros that have HD audio and EQ:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940065


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19127792
> 
> 
> They are handsome speakers no? I couldn't stand the wait, so a few weeks ago I photoshopped this mock-up



Tim, you're too much







You may as well just stick with this "mock-up" and save your money because, as we all know, your next speakers life-span could be very short (I now use a stop-watch to measure your latest speaker product)










No, really, I really appreciate all your objective efforts to experiment and share. I live vicariously through you...........


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19142215
> 
> 
> I might as well post the pics from that deleted post, since everyone loves speaker porn!



yes this is great "speaker porn". What a killer room.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19142215
> 
> 
> The thought of returning to the Classe has crossed my mind more than once, but I had a very good experience with the NAD Master series M15 a few years back and now that they've updated it with HD audio decoding and EQ, I'm going to give it a shot first



will be very intrigued to get your impressions of the NAD M15HD. I'm leaning towards replacing my T175 with this unit. I've been mostly happy with the analog characteristic from the T175, I can only think the M15HD could only be an improvement. I'm looking at M15HD/Parasound Halo A51/B&W 804Di combination.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19162509
> 
> 
> Tim, you're too much
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You may as well just stick with this "mock-up" and save your money because, as we all know, your next speakers life-span could be very short (I now use a stop-watch to measure your latest speaker product)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, really, I really appreciate all your objective efforts to experiment and share. I live vicariously through you...........



I think you may be on to something here. I could save a ton of money if I just photoshop a new set of speakers into my room every so often. Then all it would take is a little imagination, and viola! - perfect sound every time.










Or maybe I should open a speaker leasing company for other compulsive upgraders like me. For just a small monthly fee, you could have a steady rotation of the new hottness in your home.


----------



## moonhawk

Speaker of the month club.. I like it!!


Between these forums and Audiogon, you just might be able to make it work.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/19163511
> 
> 
> Speaker of the month club.. I like it!!
> 
> 
> Between these forums and Audiogon, you just might be able to make it work.



It's just crazy enough to work don't ya think?


----------



## moonhawk

Just get a small cadre of people as obsessive as you and get new speakers on a rotational basis.










Who knows? One of you might even find something you like.










Of course, that would lead to the player of the month club, the amp of the month club.....


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/19164482
> 
> 
> Just get a small cadre of people as *obsessive* as you and get new speakers on a rotational basis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows? One of you might even find something you like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, that would lead to the player of the month club, the amp of the month club.....



I prefer the term passionate.


----------



## ultra 150 pilot

You guys are not that far off the mark, I talked with matt from audio architect a while back about him shipping me different brands of speakers and I could bring them to enthusiast homes in my area, get them set up and let them demo for a few days. The speakers, could be rotated to different people(like me) around targeted areas to provide demos. It would be a very personalized service and would work in a better economy. I suggested for me a small commission for a sale but being able to listen to all those speakers would almost be payment enough


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ultra 150 pilot* /forum/post/19165245
> 
> 
> You guys are not that far off the mark, I talked with matt from audio architect a while back about him shipping me different brands of speakers and I could bring them to enthusiast homes in my area, get them set up and let them demo for a few days. The speakers, could be rotated to different people(like me) around targeted areas to provide demos. It would be a very personalized service and would work in a better economy. I suggested for me a small commission for a sale but being able to listen to all those speakers would almost be payment enough



We need to get some investors and make this happen. You can run the East Coast division and me the West.


----------



## moonhawk

Rocky Mountain c'est moi?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/19166704
> 
> 
> Rocky Mountain c'est moi?



I don't speak French, and google didn't help.







What are you saying? That a trade show offers the same experience for free, or that we should promote the speaker of the month club at such a show?


----------



## moonhawk

Rocky Mountain--this is me?


IOW I'll be the Rocky Mountain area rep.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/19167107
> 
> 
> Rocky Mountain--this is me?
> 
> 
> IOW I'll be the Rocky Mountain area rep.



Ahh... good, good.







Consider it so .... if I can get this thing from pipe dream to reality.


----------



## hifisponge

The Virgo 25's are en route to Seattle from Bellingham, WA and are due for delivery tomorrow morning. So place your bets now as to how long they will stay.










Potential outcomes:


A. I love them right out the box and hate them a week later.


B. They sound pretty good overall, but they are slightly too edgy or too dull. To which I'm advised:


1. I need wait for them to break in

2. My electronics are not up to snuff

3. I need a turntable

4. I need tubes

5. It’s my room

6. I’m too picky

7. I need to try brand X speaker, which the poster owns

8. It's my cables


C. They sound great out of the box and I keep them for at least a year (this qualifies as a long term purchase for me.)


D. They totally suck.


E. None of the above - They arrive damaged and I spend weeks dealing with a shipping insurance claim.


----------



## ultra 150 pilot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19167516
> 
> 
> The Virgo 25's are en route to Seattle from Bellingham, WA and are due for delivery tomorrow morning. So place your bets now as to how long they will stay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Potential outcomes:
> 
> 
> A. I love them right out the box and hate them a week later.
> 
> 
> B. They sound pretty good overall, but they are slightly too edgy or too dull. To which I'm advised:
> 
> 
> 1. I need wait for them to break in
> 
> 2. My electronics are not up to snuff
> 
> 3. I need a turntable
> 
> 4. I need tubes
> 
> 5. It's my room
> 
> 6. I'm too picky
> 
> 7. I need to try brand X speaker, which the poster owns
> 
> 8. It's my cables
> 
> 
> C. They sound great out of the box and I keep them for at least a year (this qualifies as a long term purchase for me.)
> 
> 
> D. They totally suck.
> 
> 
> E. None of the above - They arrive damaged and I spend weeks dealing with a shipping insurance claim.



oh man you are too funny! I say your gonna love them


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19167516
> 
> 
> Potential outcomes:



I say: "E. None of the above"; those speakers will look-up and see that it's the notorious "hifiSponge" and run for their lives knowing the fate of all the other hi-end speakers life-span (especially now that you have the power of PhotoShop)


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19168359
> 
> 
> I say: "E. None of the above"; those speakers will look-up and see that it's the notorious "hifiSponge" and run for their lives knowing the fate of all the other hi-end speakers life-span (especially now that you have the power of PhotoShop)



Ahh, come on now ... I've always arranged good foster homes for my speaker orphans.


----------



## adidino

I think since they are German designed, My guess is they will have similar characteristics to the Cantons which you bounced out the door within a week.










J/K!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/19168680
> 
> 
> I think since they are German designed, My guess is they will have similar characteristics to the Cantons which you bounced out the door within a week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J/K!



We'll find out soon enough if all German speakers have a German sound.


----------



## adidino




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19168755
> 
> 
> We'll find out soon enough if all German speakers have a German sound.



I'm curious about that myself...


----------



## hifisponge

I know that the typical "German sound" used to be cool and bright, bordering on aggressive. But this along with the polite, laid back "British sound" don't really apply across the board any more. The Germans do seem to love metal drivers still though.


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19168877
> 
> 
> I know that the typical "German sound" used to be cool and bright, bordering on aggressive. But this along with the polite, laid back "British sound" don't really apply across the board any more. The Germans do seem to love metal drivers still though.



Tim- You're too funny.....


but "know thy self" is very appropriate in this situation and boy do you know yourself.


My bet is on "B" with items 1-7 as the main causes to which your response will be to try brand X.....by the way which speaker is up next? You're destined to become a dealer....my bet is by the first of next year max.










Ed


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ERAU23* /forum/post/19169070
> 
> 
> Tim- You're too funny.....
> 
> 
> but "know thy self" is very appropriate in this situation and boy do you know yourself.
> 
> 
> My bet is on "B" with items 1-7 as the main causes to which your response will be to try brand X.....by the way which speaker is up next? You're destined to become a dealer....my bet is by the first of next year max.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ed



Ha! Yes, I've been through this a few times.


Next speaker? Hmmm, well they are totally freaky looking, but I'm very curious about the Vivid Audio line. This is the company started by the guy that designed the B&W Nautilus speakers (the black ones that look like a snail shell). I'm very impressed with the engineering behind the Vivid Audio speakers, especially the driver tech, but man they have a cabinet that only a mother could love. I like unusual designs, but I'm not sure about these.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19169536
> 
> 
> Ha! Yes, I've been through this a few times.
> 
> 
> Next speaker? Hmmm, well they are totally freaky looking, but I'm very curious about the Vivid Audio line. This is the company started by the guy that designed the B&W Nautilus speakers (the black ones that look like a snail shell). I'm very impressed with the engineering behind the Vivid Audio speakers, especially the driver tech, but man they have a cabinet that only a mother could love. I like unusual designs, but I'm not sure about these.



I've been hoping to hear the Giya sometime soon. I don't mind the look at all, and impressed with the engineering behind the whole Vivid line. Very pricey though. I think along with Rockport, Magico and TAD, I would love to hear these.


----------



## chjo100

I guess we shouldn't be discussing your future speakers, even before the Audio Physics arrived







New record, you moved on one day prior to speakers arriving... joking. Can't wait to hear the AP's.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19169794
> 
> 
> I guess we shouldn't be discussing your future speakers, even before the Audio Physics arrived
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New record, you moved on one day prior to speakers arriving... joking. Can't wait to hear the AP's.



LOL. You're right, please don't tell the Virgo 25's that I was already considering replacement speakers. They might resent me for it.


----------



## iove




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19169536
> 
> 
> I'm very impressed with the engineering behind the Vivid Audio speakers, especially the driver tech, but man they have a cabinet that only a mother could love. I like unusual designs, but I'm not sure about these.



Ummm...don't all speakers look the same in the dark?










Regarding your survey, my bet would be that this thread will be active for years to come.


----------



## hifisponge

Well, we can safely take option "E" off my list since the speakers arrived safely. In fact, the boxes looked like they had hardly been touched, which is a relief.


The Virgo 25's sounded a bit stiff and bright out of the box, but with just a few hours on them, they seem to be coming around nicely. Still a bit cool and dry in character, but very little if any grain, and no etch.  Nice and dynamic too. Oh, and surprisingly, no problems with the side firing woofs. I thought for sure that having the right speaker just under two feet from the side wall would cause problem, but the bass is some of the quickest and tightest I've had in my room.


The Virgo's are more lively, more dynamic and more expansive than the Dyns, but I still need to work on placement tweaking though, as there is a bit of suck-out in the lower mids due to placement. One thing is for sure. While the bass of the Dyns was surprisingly deep for a stand-mount, they don't have the visceral impact and attack of the Virgos.


More to come on the sound quality after I give them a few days of play and work on placement.
























































Because the speakers are all black, and my photography skills are lacking, these are definitely speakers that look significantly better in person.


----------



## moonhawk

How do we know those are real and not photoshopped?


----------



## hifisponge

That's the beauty of modern technology. You don't know. For that matter, am I real, or just some computer generated personality created to drive interest in obscure speaker brands? Hmmm....


----------



## moonhawk

Resistance is futile!!


----------



## Puma Cat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19167516
> 
> 
> The Virgo 25's are en route to Seattle from Bellingham, WA and are due for delivery tomorrow morning. So place your bets now as to how long they will stay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Potential outcomes:
> 
> 
> A. I love them right out the box and hate them a week later.
> 
> 
> B. They sound pretty good overall, but they are slightly too edgy or too dull. To which I'm advised:
> 
> 
> 1. I need wait for them to break in
> 
> 2. My electronics are not up to snuff
> 
> 3. I need a turntable
> 
> 4. I need tubes
> 
> 5. It's my room
> 
> 6. I'm too picky
> 
> 7. I need to try brand X speaker, which the poster owns
> 
> 8. It's my cables
> 
> 
> C. They sound great out of the box and I keep them for at least a year (this qualifies as a long term purchase for me.)
> 
> 
> D. They totally suck.
> 
> 
> E. None of the above - They arrive damaged and I spend weeks dealing with a shipping insurance claim.



Funny! You've pretty much got the scenario covered....


----------



## Puma Cat

Tim, I take you're using your frequency response measurement system to map the integration and placement.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Puma Cat* /forum/post/19175645
> 
> 
> Tim, I take you're using your frequency response measurement system to map the integration and placement.



Correct. REW is a great tool for analyzing the effect of speaker placement. Now I just need to find some time to do it, since the wife doesn't much care for listening to hours of sweep signals.


----------



## Puma Cat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19174572
> 
> 
> Well, we can safely take option "E" off my list since the speakers arrived safely. In fact, the boxes looked like they had hardly been touched, which is a relief.
> 
> 
> The Virgo 25's sounded a bit stiff and bright out of the box, but with just a few hours on them, they seem to be coming around nicely. Still a bit cool and dry in character, but very little if any grain, and no etch.  Nice and dynamic too. Oh, and surprisingly, no problems with the side firing woofs. I thought for sure that having the right speaker just under two feet from the side wall would cause problem, but the bass is some of the quickest and tightest I've had in my room.
> 
> 
> The Virgo's are more lively, more dynamic and more expansive than the Dyns, but not as tonally neutral. I still need to work on placement tweaking though, as there is a bit of suck-out in the lower mids. One thing is for sure. While the bass of the Dyns was surprisingly deep for a stand-mount, they don't have the visceral impact and attack of the Virgos.
> 
> 
> More to come on the sound quality after I give them a few days of play and work on placement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because the speakers are all black, and my photography skills are lacking, these are definitely speakers that look significantly better in person.



Not surprising that they are more dynamic than the C1s....they're bigger with bigger woofs. Even Dynero said that his S3.4s were more dynamic than his C1s, and he missed their slam.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19174572
> 
> 
> the speakers arrived safely.
> 
> 
> The Virgo 25's sounded a bit stiff and bright out of the box, but with just a few hours on them, they seem to be coming around nicely. Still a bit cool and dry in character, but very little if any grain, and no etch.  Nice and dynamic too. Oh, and surprisingly, no problems with the side firing woofs. I thought for sure that having the right speaker just under two feet from the side wall would cause problem, but the bass is some of the quickest and tightest I've had in my room.
> 
> 
> The Virgo's are more lively, more dynamic and more expansive than the Dyns, but not as tonally neutral. I still need to work on placement tweaking though, as there is a bit of suck-out in the lower mids. One thing is for sure. While the bass of the Dyns was surprisingly deep for a stand-mount, they don't have the visceral impact and attack of the Virgos.
> 
> 
> Because the speakers are all black, and my photography skills are lacking, these are definitely speakers that look significantly better in person.



very nice looking speakers! Are those mid-range/mid-bass driver phase plugs functional? Have fun............


----------



## ultra 150 pilot

beautiful speakers!, hows the depth and imaging?


the depth with my jm utiopias is sick, they totally disappear


geez with all of those boxes you keep receiving, your neighbors must wonder what the hell your doing over there!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19176752
> 
> 
> very nice looking speakers! Are those mid-range/mid-bass driver phase plugs functional? Have fun............



The phase plug is functional, though Audio Physic does not go into detail for the blunt end design. Focal does something similar. The interesting thing is that the voice coil extends out almost to the end of the phase plug.


----------



## ddgtr

Tim, congrats! Those are some sick looking speakers!!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/19177905
> 
> 
> Tim, congrats! Those are some sick looking speakers!!



Thanks! They are very nicely made, with all sorts of cool details. Even though they only weigh 66 pounds each, there was obviously some real engineering put into the cabinet design. Even with bass heavy tracks, the cabinet walls are dead quiet.


I do just want to say that even though I own the speakers, and even though I am always excited to try out something new, I'm not committed to them at this point. Some may not understand or agree with my methods, but this is just my way of auditioning gear that I'm interested in.


They do sound great so far though.







Crisp and clean without sounding sibilant, edgy, nasal or harsh in anyway.


----------



## hikarate

I hope they sound good cause I think they are the best looking in your room so far. Gratz on finally receiving them.


----------



## CLS

Tim,


Great to hear your new speakers arrived safely and sooner than I thought. What I heard, the asian market won't get them till the later part of the month. Lucky you! Anyways, do enjoy your new toys and looking forward to your thoughts and comments.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hikarate* /forum/post/19178637
> 
> 
> I hope they sound good cause I think they are the best looking in your room so far. Gratz on finally receiving them.



Thanks HK, the wait is always tough, even with my track record.


----------



## Puma Cat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19175725
> 
> 
> Correct. REW is a great tool for analyzing the effect of speaker placement. Now I just need to find some time to do it, since the wife doesn't much care for listening to hours of sweep signals.



Why ever not???










Man, I get up the morning to listen to hours of sweep signals!










Particularly if you could combine them with Design of Experiment analysis!


----------



## adidino

Speakers look incredible Tim. I would say best looking speakers you've had so far in my opinion.


Any truth to the "german sound". Do they sound anything like the Cantons?


----------



## sikoniko

vivid makes great speakers! they are always one of my favorites at CES. I also like avalons and the YG speakers as well. add those to the list! as much as I'm sure you like these now, I give them 6 months tops in your setup!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/19179110
> 
> 
> Speakers look incredible Tim. I would say best looking speakers you've had so far in my opinion.
> 
> 
> Any truth to the "german sound". Do they sound anything like the Cantons?



In my room, the Cantons were great except for two things: a mildly etched / granular quality to the upper mids and too much bloom in the lower mids. The first I believe was the character of the speaker, while the last was room / placement interaction.


I have neither of these problems with the Virgo's. I still have to work on placement to help correct a bit of a dip in the lower mids, but other than that, they have to be some of the least metallic sounding metal-drivered speakers I've come across.


So I'd have to say that no, that they don't have what I've always been told is the unforgivingly bright German sound, nor do they sound like the Cantons in my room.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19177506
> 
> 
> The interesting thing is that the voice coil extends out almost to the end of the phase plug.



I would imagine/guess this (voice coil design) provides better control?


----------



## weird 23

Very nice Hifi. I'll be interested to see what you think of them with the NAD vs the Denon. In what area's do you think they out perform the Dyn's so far?


----------



## hifisponge

Well guys, I've got some bad news. I just got done taking a series of in-room measurements of the left and right speakers, and adjusting the position of the speakers as much as I can. Unfortunately, the right speaker is not interfacing with my room very well at all in any of the positions I have available on that side (which isn't much).


The left speaker measures very well, except for a dip in the mid-bass that is there with every speaker on that side due to the open doorway behind that speaker.


Despite the right-wall acoustic treatment, I'm still seeing a good amount of destructive interference from the near-wall speaker placement on the right side, much more so than with the monitor speakers I've had in this same location. The most evident problem is a deep and wide suck-out in the lower midrange. I even moved the right speaker into the left speaker position and measured just to make sure that the right speaker was functioning properly, and once in that position the lower mid dip goes away and it measures identically to the left speaker.


While I've had good success in using EQ to address speaker / room interaction problems, I'm afraid that the starting point is just too far off the mark here. It's no fault of the speaker (as the left speaker measurements show), but it explains the lean midrange character and it is a good reminder of just how important proper placement is, especially with a multi-driver tower speaker.


Based on today's findings, it doesn't look like the AP's are a good fit for my room. That they sound as good as they do is surprising given the damage the poor placement is doing.


Live and learn.


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19181386
> 
> 
> Based on today's findings, it doesn't look like the AP's are a good fit for my room.



What characteristic of a loudspeaker would make them less prone to interact with the room this way? I need a pair of speakers like that!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/19181493
> 
> 
> What characteristic of a loudspeaker would make them less prone to interact with the room this way? I need a pair of speakers like that!



I think there are a number of things at play here. The dispersion characteristics of the speaker, position / height of the drivers, the crossover point and filter slopes from mid to woof.


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19181525
> 
> 
> I think there are a number of things at play here. The dispersion characteristics of the speaker, position / height of the drivers, the crossover point and filter slopes from mid to woof.



I can't really imagine dispersion being controllable to any great extent at those low-ish frequencies.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/19181568
> 
> 
> I can't really imagine dispersion being controllable to any great extent at those low-ish frequencies.



Then that leaves the crossover between mid to woof, and the position of the drivers. The virgos are unique in that the woofs are on the side of the speaker. The low mid dip is right around the crossover point between the mid and woofs. I'll shoot you an e-mail with some graphs to ponder.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *V3!* /forum/post/19181547
> 
> 
> Flip everything 180 degrees? Put the front speakers where your rear speakers are right now, hang the rear speakers from the ceiling. That might be an option.



Thanks for the input V3. Unfortunately, that room config wont work as the couch would then block the garage patio doors. Trust me, when I bought this home I went over every conceivable room layout before picking the current one as the best compromise.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19181386
> 
> 
> Well guys, I've got some bad news. I just got done taking a series of in-room measurements of the left and right speakers, and adjusting the position of the speakers as much as I can. Unfortunately, the right speaker is not interfacing with my room very well at all in any of the positions I have available on that side (which isn't much).
> 
> 
> The left speaker measures very well, except for a dip in the mid-bass that is there with every speaker on that side due to the open doorway behind that speaker.
> 
> 
> Despite the right-wall acoustic treatment, I'm still seeing a good amount of destructive interference from the near-wall speaker placement on the right side, much more so than with the monitor speakers I've had in this same location. The most evident problem is a deep and wide suck-out in the lower midrange. I even moved the right speaker into the left speaker position and measured just to make sure that the right speaker was functioning properly, and once in that position the lower mid dip goes away and it measures identically to the left speaker.
> 
> 
> While I've had good success in using EQ to address speaker / room interaction problems, I'm afraid that the starting point is just too far off the mark here. It's no fault of the speaker (as the left speaker measurements show), but it explains the lean midrange character and it is a good reminder of just how important proper placement is, especially with a multi-driver tower speaker.
> 
> 
> Based on today's findings, it doesn't look like the AP's are a good fit for my room. That they sound as good as they do is surprising given the damage the poor placement is doing.
> 
> 
> Live and learn.



boy that's a bummer...will the dealer take them back?


----------



## adidino

What freq range is the suckout specifically?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/19181656
> 
> 
> boy that's a bummer...will the dealer take them back?



I knew this was a risk when I bought them, as I've run into similar problems with other 3-way towers, so it doesn't come as a big surprise. Still, I was optimistic that I could EQ out the problems, but this really works best when just have some peaks to pull down (as I had with the WBs and Dyns).


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/19181673
> 
> 
> What freq range is the suckout specifically?



100Hz to 400Hz is -8 to -10dB, just above that is a 6dB peak from 400Hz to 1KHz, and the overall treble is depressed by 3 to 4dB. The response flattens out considerably when the speaker is moved well away from the right wall, but I can't realistically place it there.


Why do you ask?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *V3!* /forum/post/19181685
> 
> 
> Movable recliners? I read that you like to walk around most of the time, or at least I think you did so it shouldn't be that much of a problem.



Can't say that the wife would go for that, and I'm not a "recliner" type of guy.










I think you have me mixed up with someone else in regards to the walking around bit. I do want a speaker with uniform dispersion so that the character doesn't change dramatically when I sit off-axis, but I sit in the sweet spot when I listen.


----------



## adidino




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19181706
> 
> 
> 100Hz to 400Hz is -8 to -10dB, just above that is a 6dB peak from 400Hz to 1KHz, and the overall treble is depressed by 3 to 4dB. The response flattens out considerably when the speaker is moved well away from the right wall, but I can't realistically place it there.
> 
> 
> Why do you ask?



Almost looks like your JL sub is up against the side firing woof. You try moving it out of they way and remeasuring for the hell of it?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/19181783
> 
> 
> Almost looks like your JL sub is up against the side firing woof. You try moving it out of they way and remeasuring for the hell of it?



I don't get your drift. The sub was not in play when I took the measurements, and the problem areas are well above the operating range of the sub. Even run full range, the JL doesn't have much output above 125Hz. The placement problems with the lower mids of the right speaker are all above that point.


----------



## adidino




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19181796
> 
> 
> I don't get your drift. The sub was not in play when I took the measurements, and the problem areas are well above the operating range of the sub. Even run full range, the JL doesn't have much output above 125Hz. The placement problems with the lower mids of the right speaker are all above that point.



I was thinking the side firing woof is reflecting off the JL but since the problem freq range is above the range of that side woofer, I suppose it shouldn't matter.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adidino* /forum/post/19181832
> 
> 
> I was thinking the side firing woof is reflecting off the JL but since the problem freq range is above the range of that side woofer, I suppose it shouldn't matter.



No problem. It is still good to get a fresh perspective. I've been at this for a while though, so I'm pretty familiar with the pros and cons of my room. Still it is hard to predict what the outcome will be when I'm dealing with the complexities of multi-driver speakers, especially when some of those drivers are placed unusually.


Given a more conventional and symmetrical room layout, I'm sure that the Virgo's would shine. Other than the tonal imbalance caused by the room interaction, they are a very clean and expansive sounding set of speakers. Detailed without sounding etched or clinical.


----------



## ultra 150 pilot

so whats next?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ultra 150 pilot* /forum/post/19186846
> 
> 
> so whats next?



I'm done experimenting (for a while anyway) and I'm going back to the last set of speakers that worked for me-- Wilson Benesch. Though instead of the strange looking Discovery's, I'm going to go with the Trinity monitors. The center and surrounds will be exactly the same as my previous set-up.





























In a few years, if I get the itch to try something different, I won't be selling off my entire system before finding a worthy replacement.


----------



## williamtassone

Tim have u seen the Trinity's up close - check the carbon fibre weave as the ACT's use a type of carbon fibre weave thats not as aesthetically pleasing as the ARCS/Curves/Discos (least i didnt think so)


the difference is quite pronounced


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *williamtassone* /forum/post/19187152
> 
> 
> Tim have u seen the Trinity's up close - check the carbon fibre weave as the ACT's use a type of carbon fibre weave thats not as aesthetically pleasing as the ARCS/Curves/Discos (least i didnt think so)
> 
> 
> the difference is quite pronounced



Might you have been looking at the C60 version of the ACT that uses nano-tube carbon fiber? Because to the best of my knowledge, all of the other models, including the regular ACT use the same carbon fiber weave.


----------



## williamtassone

No it was the stock ACT, and the weave was very different to what we're used to .


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *williamtassone* /forum/post/19187405
> 
> 
> No it was the stock ACT, and the weave was very different to what we're used to .



OK, I just went to the WB website and I see what you mean. The weave looks more like a diagonally striped pattern on the ACT, whereas on the other speakers (including the Trinity) the weave is a checkered pattern.


The weave on the ACT doesn't bother me though.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19187438
> 
> 
> OK, I just went to the WB website and I see what you mean. The weave looks more like a diagonally striped pattern on the ACT, whereas on the other speakers (including the Trinity) the weave is a checkered pattern.
> 
> 
> The weave on the ACT doesn't bother me though.



You may be okay with the weave, but I don't know if your dogs will appreciate the 100 khz the super tweeter purportedly reaches


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19188138
> 
> 
> You may be okay with the weave, but I don't know if your dogs will appreciate the 100 khz the super tweeter purportedly reaches



I hear that recording engineers hide all the subliminal messaging up near 100KHz, but I'll have to have my dog translate for me.


I'm curious to see if the super tweeter has any affect on the sound, but my expectations are low. My main reason for going with the Trinity is the more powerful motor on the mid/woof.


----------



## weird 23

Wow! Is that a new record for you? I love the look of the WB's, the way the stands are incorporated with the speaker looks sweet. Are you still going to try the Nad gear or are you also going back to Classe?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19188245
> 
> 
> Wow! Is that a new record for you? I love the look of the WB's, the way the stands are incorporated with the speaker looks sweet. Are you still going to try the Nad gear or are you also going back to Classe?



Yeah, I think it is.










I can hear the potential of the Virgo's, but my room is crippling them. Truth is, even with the room induced problems, I've been enjoying my time with them. They have an expansive soundstage, crisp, clear midrange with no harshness, tight tuneful bass, and good timing.


I don't know what it is with me and standmount speakers, but I really prefer the look of them in my room over even smallish floorstanders. I do have to say that as tower speakers go though, I haven't owned any that are more handsome than the Virgo 25's. They really need to be seen in person to fully appreciate all of the details. I think if I had more space up front, they would look more at home, but there is also something that much more impressive in achieving a big sound out of a pair of relatively small monitor + sub, which I know the WB's + JL F112 can do in spades.


Oh, and yes, I still plan to try out the NAD Master Series. It is going to take me a few months to get back on my feet financially though. The 5 channels of WB speakers alone are going to run close to $20,000!


----------



## Warpdrv

Hey tim..... up to your old tricks again.... same $hit different pyle....










Been around the world in speakers again.... funny... Hey let me know if you need another F112... Sellin mine from the bedroom, upgradin to the Submersive...










Should be comin in a few days or maybe next week...


----------



## ultra 150 pilot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19191339
> 
> 
> Hey tim..... up to your old tricks again.... same $hit different pyle....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Been around the world in speakers again.... funny... Hey let me know if you need another F112... Sellin mine from the bedroom, upgradin to the Submersive...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should be comin in a few days or maybe next week...



I went from 2 martin logan decents to the submersive, I love it! even more musical than the logans and tons of output.


enjoy


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19191339
> 
> 
> Hey tim..... up to your old tricks again.... same $hit different pyle....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Been around the world in speakers again.... funny... Hey let me know if you need another F112... Sellin mine from the bedroom, upgradin to the Submersive...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should be comin in a few days or maybe next week...



Gotta do something to keep the hobby interesting, right?










You're one to talk with your never-ending subwoofer upgrades and that stack of amps that keeps growing.










The only place for you to go is ....


----------



## Warpdrv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ultra 150 pilot* /forum/post/19192242
> 
> 
> I went from 2 martin logan decents to the submersive, I love it! even more musical than the logans and tons of output.
> 
> 
> enjoy




Thanks Ultra....


This is just a minor upgrade for my small system...

I like the looks of the Submersive, I have heard it and was very impressed with Marks stuff. Check my sig for something a bit bigger and far more impressive....




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19192433
> 
> 
> Gotta do something to keep the hobby interesting, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're one to talk with your never-ending subwoofer upgrades and that stack of amps that keeps growing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only place for you to go is ....




Hmmm actually I was thinking more along the lines of something like this....
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/content...tary-subwoofer 









That should take care of the lowest of lows... and likely get me kicked out of the neighborhood, as if I wasn't close enough to that stature already.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19192549
> 
> 
> Hmmm actually I was thinking more along the lines of something like this....
> http://www.ultimateavmag.com/content...tary-subwoofer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That should take care of the lowest of lows... and likely get me kicked out of the neighborhood, as if I wasn't close enough to that stature already.



Nope, not good enough. You need this:











180dB + output.










I'd like to buy your sub off you, as I'd like to add another, but I'm going to be tapped out for a while.


----------



## Warpdrv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19192624
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to buy your sub off you, as I'd like to add another, but I'm going to be tapped out for a while.




I get a kick out of those goofy huge things....


Actually I'm freakin thrilled with my new subs - they are and will be more then enough in my stadium for many years to come, just final tweaks to work out the small details... the amount of output of them all the way down to 12hz or so, I'm still feeling a dip just under 20hz but it rises back up lower...


Gotta get REW back in to the mix to try out some different approaches with on the boys... I'll get it though.... Integration has gone extremely well and they are incredibly clean, tactile and accurate. Eq is spot on, with a gentle house curve carefully constructed per my design.


My bedroom has always been the inspiration for impact - and I have finally achieved that in my great room...


I'm interested in a new preamp for my bedroom - I'm looking heavily at the Marantz AV7005, I heard the AV8003, but skipped it for my D2v... I didn't spend enough time with the 8003, I didn't recognize that it was laid back as you suggested.... Maybe you could expand on that a bit for me. FWIW - Also someone suggested that the 7005 will come with XT32, but it was stated by Chris of Audyssey that it will be XT only Pro add on...


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19192874
> 
> 
> I get a kick out of those goofy huge things....
> 
> 
> Actually I'm freakin thrilled with my new subs - they are and will be more then enough in my stadium for many years to come, just final tweaks to work out the small details... the amount of output of them all the way down to 12hz or so, I'm still feeling a dip just under 20hz but it rises back up lower...
> 
> 
> Gotta get REW back in to the mix to try out some different approaches with on the boys... I'll get it though.... Integration has gone extremely well and they are incredibly clean, tactile and accurate. Eq is spot on, with a gentle house curve carefully constructed per my design.
> 
> 
> My bedroom has always been the inspiration for impact - and I have finally achieved that in my great room...
> 
> 
> I'm interested in a new preamp for my bedroom - I'm looking heavily at the Marantz AV7005, I heard the AV8003, but skipped it for my D2v... I didn't spend enough time with the 8003, I didn't recognize that it was laid back as you suggested.... Maybe you could expand on that a bit for me. FWIW - Also someone suggested that the 7005 will come with XT32, but it was stated by Chris of Audyssey that it will be XT only Pro add on...



I suggested that to Tim and it wasn't fact based, you are right about which version of Audyssey will be shipping in the AV7005. I've had my eye on this as well but the one thing that disappoints me is that you can't use they height and surround back speakers at the same. I'm probably still going to pick this one up though as I have the same problem as you, using a Pioneer AVR as a processor which is just not cutting it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19192874
> 
> 
> I get a kick out of those goofy huge things....
> 
> 
> Actually I'm freakin thrilled with my new subs - they are and will be more then enough in my stadium for many years to come, just final tweaks to work out the small details... the amount of output of them all the way down to 12hz or so, I'm still feeling a dip just under 20hz but it rises back up lower...
> 
> 
> Gotta get REW back in to the mix to try out some different approaches with on the boys... I'll get it though.... Integration has gone extremely well and they are incredibly clean, tactile and accurate. Eq is spot on, with a gentle house curve carefully constructed per my design.
> 
> 
> My bedroom has always been the inspiration for impact - and I have finally achieved that in my great room...
> 
> 
> I'm interested in a new preamp for my bedroom - I'm looking heavily at the Marantz AV7005, I heard the AV8003, but skipped it for my D2v... I didn't spend enough time with the 8003, I didn't recognize that it was laid back as you suggested.... Maybe you could expand on that a bit for me. FWIW - Also someone suggested that the 7005 will come with XT32, but it was stated by Chris of Audyssey that it will be XT only Pro add on...



Yeah, I've been checking in on your thread every once in a while, and it does look like you are nearing the end of you quest. And I'm sure that you will have some fun ahead of you fine tuning with placement and EQ. When I owned the Classe, I spent months re-evaluating my choice of EQ filters until I finally got it right, and boy was it good when I was done.


When I listened to the Marantz AV8003, it provided a smoother sound than the Denon or even the Classe. Some in the group that also listened to it felt that it wasn't as detailed, but for me it was a nice offset to the somewhat sharp sound I was getting from my speakers at the time. It doesn't surprise me that you didn't pick up on the smooth character of the Marantz, as I don't think I would have either if we didn't have others to immediately compare it to. The differences were small.


----------



## kiss_alive

get yourself the MTX JACKHAMMER only $6,550.00 for one











This was installed in a car on pimp my ride


----------



## ultra 150 pilot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19192549
> 
> 
> Thanks Ultra....
> 
> 
> This is just a minor upgrade for my small system...
> 
> I like the looks of the Submersive, I have heard it and was very impressed with Marks stuff. Check my sig for something a bit bigger and far more impressive....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm actually I was thinking more along the lines of something like this....
> http://www.ultimateavmag.com/content...tary-subwoofer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That should take care of the lowest of lows... and likely get me kicked out of the neighborhood, as if I wasn't close enough to that stature already.




very nice subs!


----------



## Warpdrv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19193154
> 
> 
> Yeah, I've been checking in on your thread every once in a while, and it does look like you are nearing the end of you quest. And I'm sure that you will have some fun ahead of you fine tuning with placement and EQ. When I owned the Classe, I spent months re-evaluating my choice of EQ filters until I finally got it right, and boy was it good when I was done.
> 
> 
> When I listened to the Marantz AV8003, it provided a smoother sound than the Denon or even the Classe. Some in the group that also listened to it felt that it wasn't as detailed, but for me it was a nice offset to the somewhat sharp sound I was getting from my speakers at the time. It doesn't surprise me that you didn't pick up on the smooth character of the Marantz, as I don't think I would have either if we didn't have others to immediately compare it to. The differences were small.



Thanks, I'm going to grab one and see how it sounds, I can't imagine its any worse then the Pioneer reciever I have for now, which isn't all that bad for the bedroom, just wanted to make the final move to separates I generally pull the really high highs down a touch with EQ anyways, unless you are speaking of a top to bottom smoothness down to 2k hz or something. I guess in my thoughts as long as it doesn't inhibit audibility or speech in such a manor I'll be just fine...





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kiss_alive* /forum/post/19193561
> 
> 
> get yourself the MTX JACKHAMMER only $6,550.00 for one
> 
> 
> This was installed in a car on pimp my ride



Those darn things are just plain goofy.... hheheheh



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ultra 150 pilot* /forum/post/19193727
> 
> 
> very nice subs!



Thank ultra....


Its been a fun project - obviously still have some tweaking - but just downright awesome.... people freak out with movies and even music... scary


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19194839
> 
> 
> Thanks, I'm going to grab one and see how it sounds, I can't imagine its any worse then the Pioneer reciever I have for now, which isn't all that bad for the bedroom, just wanted to make the final move to separates I generally pull the really high highs down a touch with EQ anyways, unless you are speaking of a top to bottom smoothness down to 2k hz or something. I guess in my thoughts as long as it doesn't inhibit audibility or speech in such a manor I'll be just fine...



To me, the smoothness of the Marantz is more of a slight textural / resolution thing, rather than a frequency response thing. The highs are not being rolled off as far as I can tell. The smoothness of the sound has no effect on speech intelligibility.


----------



## Warpdrv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19195106
> 
> 
> To me, the smoothness of the Marantz is more of a slight textural / resolution thing, rather than a frequency response thing. The highs are not being rolled off as far as I can tell. The smoothness of the sound has no effect on speech intelligibility.




thanks for that - I completely understand what you are saying now....


I really got to give this unit a shot - if its up to par as others have said of the 8003 I'm going to be darned happy. Seems they certainly got rid of the shortcomings with the 7005, and I could care less about DSD - I think I may have about 5 albums. Not a deal breaker for me while I'm sittin in bed...











If it works out good enough - I could possibly even sell the D2v for one... I love the Anthem, but at this point I could sell it for nothing lost.... we'll see ---- Its funny that even after 2 years of the D2v release there still isn't much in the line of products that are shipping that match its flexibility. I could give or take the video processor part, but ARC is really great and Audyssey Pro could easily match the performance from my reading and reviews...


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19195883
> 
> 
> thanks for that - I completely understand what you are saying now....
> 
> 
> I really got to give this unit a shot - if its up to par as others have said of the 8003 I'm going to be darned happy. Seems they certainly got rid of the shortcomings with the 7005, and I could care less about DSD - I think I may have about 5 albums. Not a deal breaker for me while I'm sittin in bed...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it works out good enough - I could possibly even sell the D2v for one... I love the Anthem, but at this point I could sell it for nothing lost.... we'll see ---- Its funny that even after 2 years of the D2v release there still isn't much in the line of products that are shipping that match its flexibility. I could give or take the video processor part, but ARC is really great and Audyssey Pro could easily match the performance from my reading and reviews...



I brought over the Marantz AV8003 and echo what Tim said. Probably the only area I had a different perspective was that I felt there was a more noticeable difference between the processors and even when we added an external amplifier to the Denon. I also had the Marantz 6003 integrated at one point and both the AV8003 and 6004 and to my ears they both had a definite warm character to the sound. Does not obscure dialog, but my experience was that I heard more resolution from the Arcam and Classe. I really liked the Marantz though and am considering the AV7005 when it comes out. Gotta say, with the Marantz and Submersive, your bedroom setup will eclipse most people's main setup


----------



## Warpdrv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19196178
> 
> 
> I brought over the Marantz AV8003 and echo what Tim said. Probably the only area I had a different perspective was that I felt there was a more noticeable difference between the processors and even when we added an external amplifier to the Denon. I also had the Marantz 6003 integrated at one point and both the AV8003 and 6004 and to my ears they both had a definite warm character to the sound. Does not obscure dialog, but my experience was that I heard more resolution from the Arcam and Classe. I really liked the Marantz though and am considering the AV7005 when it comes out. Gotta say, with the Marantz and Submersive, your bedroom setup will eclipse most people's main setup



Thanks for your thoughts as well chjo..... I think I really need to put it into the mix, and see how it sounds. My bedroom is a tad bit on the bright side, not too bad but that is why I tone down the highs just a touch, and then the Sig's .v1 are just plain right on for me... They make me happy enough at any rate..... No need for me to upgrade them anytime in the near future.


The woman and I like to watch movies late night sometimes and its nice to lie back in bed to enjoy. The F112 is over the top in there as it sits right now, just no low bass.... I love the wood finish on the Submersive and it will fit in nicely there - with the added benefit of prob hittin 10hz...


Can't say I will lose much on the sale of the F112 - it will be around a $400 upgrade all said and done. Mark Seaton said I could probably pick it up on Tues, as I was close to the front of the line in ordering the HP.


On a side note, Dennis at D-Sonic suggested I send my amp in a little while ago to upgrade some of the innards, as he's improved his design and layout - turned out that none of the new parts would fit the old chassis - He sent me out a brand new amp instead (turn around less then a week), I paid an extremely reasonable upgrade charge. I noticed an improvement immediately - Dennis is a Class act for sure... Getting rid of that Pioneer will be a great day indeed....


Patrick


----------



## Warpdrv

BTW - To be noted - which blew me away and not in a good way...










My Pioneer receiver was the amp source while my D-Sonic was out for service.... I noticed instantaneously as well as the Sugar Mama that everything was incredibly shrill and piercing in nature - to the point I had to go adjust the EQ in a massive way to keep from blowing us out of the room as our ears were just bleeding... Barely tolerable to me... for either of us actually...


So for anyone out there wondering weather the onboard amp section is good enough or one should go with external amps - that was enough for me to know I made the right choice right from the get go to get an external amp and both the D-Sonic and Wyred4Sound are just really smooth amps... so glad I went in that direction...


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19197004
> 
> 
> BTW - To be noted - which blew me away and not in a good way...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My Pioneer receiver was the amp source while my D-Sonic was out for service.... I noticed instantaneously as well as the Sugar Mama that everything was incredibly shrill and piercing in nature - to the point I had to go adjust the EQ in a massive way to keep from blowing us out of the room as our ears were just bleeding... Barely tolerable to me... for either of us actually...
> 
> 
> So for anyone out there wondering weather the onboard amp section is good enough or one should go with external amps - that was enough for me to know I made the right choice right from the get go to get an external amp and both the D-Sonic and Wyred4Sound are just really smooth amps... so glad I went in that direction...



I don't doubt your experience, but I think it really depends on each particular piece and that each component has to be evaluated on its own merit. I don't find my cheap HK AVR shrill at all, though it does sound a bit "electronic", and I have no complaints with the built-in amps in my Denon flagship AVR-5308.


----------



## kiss_alive




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19194839
> 
> 
> Those darn things are just plain goofy.... hheheheh



They may be goofy but they will bring the house down..Literally


----------



## Warpdrv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19197063
> 
> 
> I don't doubt your experience, but I think it really depends on each particular piece and that each component has to be evaluated on its own merit. I don't find my cheap HK AVR shrill at all, though it does sound a bit "electronic", and I have no complaints with the built-in amps in my Denon flagship AVR-5308.



I agree with you 100%, which is why I stated "MY" pioneer did this - I couldn't comment on other receivers personally - but I was def appalled with how it sounded when all I did was remove the speaker wires from the amp and plug them into the receiver. One would think that with the "all amps sound the same" thought processes you wouldn't come to a conclusion by this change... The signal is the same - yet it sounded incredibly over attenuated on the high end compared to the pre-outs to the D-Sonic amp. It was just very strange and surprising...


Obviously YMMV


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19200245
> 
> 
> I agree with you 100%, which is why I stated "MY" pioneer did this - I couldn't comment on other receivers personally - but I was def appalled with how it sounded when all I did was remove the speaker wires from the amp and plug them into the receiver. One would think that with the "all amps sound the same" thought processes you wouldn't come to a conclusion by this change... The signal is the same - yet it sounded incredibly over attenuated on the high end compared to the pre-outs to the D-Sonic amp. It was just very strange and surprising...
> 
> 
> Obviously YMMV



No problem. I thought you might have been generalizing, but we are on the same page.


To generalize a bit myself though, I do fond that your chances of hearing distinct differences between audio electronics does go up the cheaper you go. I think it is once you head the other direction that you start to get into hair-splitting territory.


----------



## Warpdrv

Agreed - the receiver was a $7-900 unit - not state of the art but certainly not bottom of the barrel in its day which was 4 years ago.


I have been waiting patiently for something in the somewhat budget arena to fill its shoes, I'm just astonished that its taken this long. I can't personally bring myself to buy something from Onkyo/Integra with the poor support and issues I have read about. 2K was to be around the top of the budget for a pre/pro for that system, and that was pushin it for me... The 8003 was def on target for that spot, but when it came out it somewhat fell on its face with the lack of well alot of things..... I got alot of projects that I put on hold to do those subs, but now they are done and I'm happy so I can start remodeling the bathroom and kitchen in the near future.


Anywho - here's to hoping the AV7005 will finally be what I need for that setup....


----------



## hifisponge

I spent an hour at a local audio boutique listening to a pair of KEF Ref 203/2's.


Conlusion: eh. . . whatever. Sounds like hi-fi, not music.


Translation: well behaved but no magic.


If you look back at the first page of this thread, you'll see that I owned the previous generation Ref 203's and I found them nasal, thin and fatiguing.


This current gen exhibits none of those traits, but the sound was somewhat veiled and uninvolving. Inoffensive, but boring.


The room was not helping the audition any though, adding a wooly character to the bass and some hoot to the lower mids.


When we moved them out of the enclosed room into the open, things sounded much better balanced, but still really nothing remarkable going on and I still found the bass lacked some definition.


The soundstage was restricted to the speaker plane and only extended just a bit outside of the speaker position at times, with certain music.


They seemed like a step down from the Dyn C1's, which for me are a step down from the WB's.


I went to listen to the KEF's because I wanted to see if they corrected the problems I heard with the ones I owned, they get phenomenal reviews across the board, and this would be my last attempt at something different before going back to WB. My decision just got a lot easier.


----------



## Puma Cat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19200519
> 
> 
> No problem. I thought you might have been generalizing, but we are on the same page.
> 
> 
> To generalize a bit myself though, I do fond that your chances of hearing distinct differences between audio electronics does go up the cheaper you go. I think it is once you head the other direction that you start to get into hair-splitting territory.



Sorry, I don't agree with that. For example, you haven't heard a DarTZeel CTH-8550.


Respectfully, Tim, I think you're never-ending quest for speakers is never-ending because it's not the speakers that are the problem, it's your source-to-speaker reproduction/amplification chain, as well the as the space you are trying to make this all work in, which presents very challenging conflicts. One speaker is near a wall, the other opens into a large volume and you have a large HD TV in the middle between the two. You keep changing the speakers, yet everything else is the same...source, electronics, listening space. If you keep changin' out the speaks and you still have the same basic problems, well, it isn't the speakers...it's the stuff that hasn't changed.


I know you're using a Denon AVR, what's the rest of the chain presently?


----------



## Puma Cat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19208385
> 
> 
> I spent an hour at a local audio boutique listening to a pair of KEF Ref 203/2's.
> 
> 
> Conlusion: eh. . . whatever. Sounds like hi-fi, not music.
> 
> 
> Translation: well behaved but no magic.
> 
> 
> If you look back at the first page of this thread, you'll see that I owned the previous generation Ref 203's and I found them nasal, thin and fatiguing.
> 
> 
> This current gen exhibits none of those traits, but the sound was somewhat veiled and uninvolving. Inoffensive, but boring.
> 
> 
> The room was not helping the audition any though, adding a wooly character to the bass and some hoot to the lower mids.
> 
> 
> When we moved them out of the enclosed room into the open, things sounded much better balanced, but still really nothing remarkable going on and I still found the bass lacked some definition.
> 
> 
> The soundstage was restricted to the speaker plane and only extended just a bit outside of the speaker position at times, with certain music.
> 
> 
> They seemed like a step down from the Dyn C1's, which for me are a step down from the WB's.
> 
> 
> I went to listen to the KEF's because I wanted to see if they corrected the problems I heard with the ones I owned, they get phenomenal reviews across the board, and this would be my last attempt at something different before going back to WB. My decision just got a lot easier.



It's not exactly clear to me what you didn't like about the C1s....


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Puma Cat* /forum/post/19208501
> 
> 
> It's not exactly clear to me what you didn't like about the C1s....



That's because I've never really come out and said it.










Truth is, I'm not completely sure myself. I'm usually pretty good at analyzing and breaking down the pros and cons, but judging the C1's is tough. After break-in the annoying sizzle and shout went away, and what came after would have to be a sound that is just about as tonally neutral as I've heard through the mids, the bass is tight and extended, and the treble delicate, yet they just don't move me to want to listen.


I can point to one thing that is important to me though, and that is soundstage size. I like a big, enveloping sound and the WB's are the best I've heard in this area. With the C1's I feel like I'm listening "at" the music. I know you are quite content with the soundstage you get from your S3.4's, so either your CJ front end is doing that for you, or you need to hear the WB's to hear what you are missing.










While doing some research on the KEF's last night, I came across the SoundStage.com review of the KEF Reference 201/2 in which the reviewer compares them to the C1's.

_"However, a pair of C1s costs even more than 201/2s, and although I really liked the sound of the C1s, I liked the 201/2s' more. For example, the C1s sound remarkably fleshed out, but I preferred the 201/2s’ comparatively leaner, more visceral presentation. To me, the 201/2s sounded more detailed, and this revealed more of the recording -- something I favor. Furthermore, I found the 201/2s a touch cleaner-sounding, particularly at higher volume levels. Basically, they held their composure better. *I also thought that the 201/2s laid out a larger, more precise soundstage,* likely due to their being such a high-rez design. However, the C1 has strengths too, like the robustness that the 201/2 doesn’t quite match and that deeper bass that others may certainly favor. Therefore, sonically, there’s no real better or worse. Preferences will dictate."_


While I don't agree with the reviewers overall love of the KEFs, I do agree with the comment in bold about the soundstage. And the truth is, the soundstage of the KEFs is small in comparison to the WBs. What's even more impressive is that the WB's manage to pull off this trick without ballooning the size of all of the instruments and vocals.


I think What Hi-Fi's review of the Wilson Benesch pretty susictly describes my experience with the sound-staging of the WB line:

_"... Nor can we let their stereo imaging go unmentioned. It’s not often we hear so stable a soundstage and rarely does it extend so boldly outside the confines of the speakers."_


----------



## williamtassone

too true







. So Tim do the drivers on the Trinity's , are they different to the ARCs/ Curve's/Discos in some way ?


----------



## Puma Cat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19208552
> 
> 
> That's because I've never really come out and said it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truth is, I'm not completely sure myself. I'm usually pretty good at analyzing and breaking down the pros and cons, but judging the C1's is tough. After break-in the annoying sizzle and shout went away, and what came after would have to be a sound that is just about as tonally neutral as I've heard through the mids, the bass is tight and extended, and the treble delicate, yet they just don't move me to want to listen.
> 
> 
> I can point to one thing that is important to me though, and that is soundstage size. I like a big, enveloping sound and the WB's are the best I've heard in this area. With the C1's I feel like I'm listening "at" the music. I know you are quite content with the soundstage you get from your S3.4's, so either your CJ front end is doing that for you, or you need to hear the WB's to hear what you are missing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While doing some research on the KEF's last night, I came across the SoundStage.com review of the KEF Reference 201/2 in which the reviewer compares them to the C1's.
> 
> _"However, a pair of C1s costs even more than 201/2s, and although I really liked the sound of the C1s, I liked the 201/2s' more. For example, the C1s sound remarkably fleshed out, but I preferred the 201/2s’ comparatively leaner, more visceral presentation. To me, the 201/2s sounded more detailed, and this revealed more of the recording -- something I favor. Furthermore, I found the 201/2s a touch cleaner-sounding, particularly at higher volume levels. Basically, they held their composure better. *I also thought that the 201/2s laid out a larger, more precise soundstage,* likely due to their being such a high-rez design. However, the C1 has strengths too, like the robustness that the 201/2 doesn’t quite match and that deeper bass that others may certainly favor. Therefore, sonically, there’s no real better or worse. Preferences will dictate."_
> 
> 
> While I don't agree with the reviewers overall love of the KEFs, I do agree with the comment in bold about the soundstage. And the truth is, the soundstage of the KEFs is small in comparison to the WBs. What's even more impressive is that the WB's manage to pull off this trick without ballooning the size of all of the instruments and vocals.
> 
> 
> I think What Hi-Fi's review of the Wilson Benesch pretty susictly describes my experience with the sound-staging of the WB line:
> 
> _"... Nor can we let their stereo imaging go unmentioned. It’s not often we hear so stable a soundstage and rarely does it extend so boldly outside the confines of the speakers."_



Maybe the C1s were the most accurate speakers you ever had, and the reason that you weren't moved to listen to them was because they were _so_ neutral, that your lack of musical engagement was coming not from the speakers but from your source, that is, your receiver, and all the other stuff you have the source going through, and the digital source material. This has kinda been my point all along, the Dyns are so neutral they are transducing what is in front of them, _nothing more_. Perhaps you liked the WBs because they are adding a euphonic coloration to the sound you liked...just something to think about...


To be honest, I think Tyler and Mick would agree. They would likely say, if you don't like the way the C1s sound, look to your source, not the speakers. The speakers are only accurately reflecting what is in front of them.


You may well have felt a whole lot differently about the C1s if a record been on the TT going through a nice tube front end!










Actually, I'll bet the above could be said for the Audio Physics as well.


We'll talk more here later, I gotta get rolling this morning, but I just made a discovery this week about something that can really affect (and improve) imaging....


Interconnects.


----------



## hifisponge

Of course Tyler and Mick are going to tell me my lack of interest in the C1's "has to be anything but the speakers"-- Tyler sells Dynaudio and Mick works for the manufacturer.










In regards to your other comments about electronics and interconnects, we've already been down that road several times.


The bottom line: as good as the Dynaudio line-up is, it still isn't for everyone. Enjoy yours.


Lets move on.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *williamtassone* /forum/post/19208995
> 
> 
> too true
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . So Tim do the drivers on the Trinity's , are they different to the ARCs/ Curve's/Discos in some way ?



The mid/bass driver used in the Trinity and the ACT C60 is an evolutionary upgrade to the Tactic driver. The new driver, called the "WB One", has a more powerful magnet and reengineered venting / airflow around the voice coil, but the rest of the design is the same as the Tactic. So the sound of the WB1 should still be in the same family as the Tactic, but with potentially better dynamics and power handling.

http://www.wilson-benesch.com/2007/0...rive-unit.html


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19209737
> 
> 
> Of course Tyler and Mick are going to tell me my lack of interest in the C1's "has to be anything but the speakers"-- Tyler sells Dynaudio and Mick works for the manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In regards to your other comments about electronics and interconnects, we've already been down that road several times.
> 
> 
> The bottom line: as good as the Dynaudio line-up is, it still isn't for everyone. Enjoy yours.
> 
> 
> Lets move on.



I had a worthwhile audition last week. Our local dealer has the outrageously priced, $55,000 Active Linn Speaker, connected to a $30,000 Linn Stack. I expected to be disappointed but I have to say I was very impressed. It was all high resolution recordings, but what really struck me was the huge sound stage from left to right and something I rarely hear which was very clear depth to the imaging. I've rarely experience the level of back to front imaging that these Linn's presented. I have no idea how much each component contributed to the sound (I suspect recording played a large part), but they'll have the setup for one more week before the Linn speakers are returned. I know you value sound stage highly so might be a fun listen for you.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19209822
> 
> 
> I had a worthwhile audition last week. Our local dealer has the outrageously priced, $55,000 Active Linn Speaker, connected to a $30,000 Linn Stack. I expected to be disappointed but I have to say I was very impressed. It was all high resolution recordings, but what really struck me was the huge sound stage from left to right and something I rarely hear which was very clear depth to the imaging. I've rarely experience the level of back to front imaging that these Linn's presented. I have no idea how much each component contributed to the sound (I suspect recording played a large part), but they'll have the setup for one more week before the Linn speakers are returned. I know you value sound stage highly so might be a fun listen for you.



Thanks for the heads up. Is this in the bellevue store?


And do you ever stop shopping for audio gear? You are worse than me.


So, what was it you were doing at the AV store in the first place?


----------



## cachecoder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> That's because I've never really come out and said it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truth is, I'm not completely sure myself. I'm usually pretty good at analyzing and breaking down the pros and cons, but judging the C1's is tough. After break-in the annoying sizzle and shout went away, and what came after would have to be a sound that is just about as tonally neutral as I've heard through the mids, the bass is tight and extended, and the treble delicate, yet they just don't move me to want to listen.



Tim,

If the gear doesn't move you to listen, maybe the problem is you're listening to the same music too often. Time for some new reference tracks? I'll send you a promo code for a free hi-rez music album. Try switching from "critical listening" to "enjoyment listening" for a while.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19209870
> 
> 
> Thanks for the heads up. Is this in the bellevue store?
> 
> 
> And do you ever stop shopping for audio gear? You are worse than me.
> 
> 
> So, what was it you were doing at the AV store in the first place?



Yes, Bellevue store. Why was I there







I had stopped by to inquire about an item on the clearance list and was told about the Linn event. I saw 7ryder there, and we actually got pretty good seats. The Linn was of particular interest since it was actively powered with an active crossover.


I still I think I have a way to go before I reach HiFiSponge status. I've had my speakers for two-three years after all







I think you've gone through more speakers in the past six months then I've owned in my life. I've enjoyed getting to listen to many of your setups though and understand the method to your madness.


I like to listen to pretty much everything I can get my ears on. I don't think I'll ever stop shopping. Hobby is just too fun and when something actually brings me closer to the music...so gratifying. I'm still searching for the holy grail. The setup regardless of price that sounds just perfect.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cachecoder* /forum/post/19210026
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> If the gear doesn't move you to listen, maybe the problem is you're listening to the same music too often. Time for some new reference tracks? I'll send you a promo code for a free hi-rez music album. Try switching from "critical listening" to "enjoyment listening" for a while.



Yes, you are partially right. I have certainly burnt out on my reference tracks and was just thinking yesterday after the KEF audition that I need new ones. But .... that's not what I based my opinion of the Dyns on. Even with my entire music library on shuffle, listening to the C1's just never really grabbed my attention. In contrast to this, my short time with the Revels was an invigorating experience, and even with the placement-crippled Virgo's, I find myself more engaged.


Thanks for the code to the free music.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19210041
> 
> 
> Yes, Bellevue store. Why was I there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had stopped by to inquire about an item on the clearance list and was told about the Linn event. I saw 7ryder there, and we actually got pretty good seats. The Linn was of particular interest since it was actively powered with an active crossover.
> 
> 
> I still I think I have a way to go before I reach HiFiSponge status. I've had my speakers for two-three years after all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you've gone through more speakers in the past six months then I've owned in my life. I've enjoyed getting to listen to many of your setups though and understand the method to your madness.
> 
> 
> I like to listen to pretty much everything I can get my ears on. I don't think I'll ever stop shopping. Hobby is just too fun and when something actually brings me closer to the music...so gratifying. I'm still searching for the holy grail. The setup regardless of price that sounds just perfect.




Call me when you go out to do these things. It sounds like fun. Everything is better when shared with friends, right? And I don't have too many that share my strong interest in audio. They just don't get it.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19210164
> 
> 
> Call me when you go out to do these things. It sounds like fun. Everything is better when shared with friends, right? And I don't have too many that share my strong interest in audio. They just don't get it.



Totally will. If you go listen to the Linn setup let me know. I would like to hear without thirty other audiophiles crammed into the room. Most of my friends think I'm insane. 99% of them think my acoustic panels are speakers and they ask in an incredulous tone, "you actually sit and listen to music?" But great thing is when they look to upgrade they will call me first so I guess they don't think I'm totally insane


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19210210
> 
> 
> Totally will. If you go listen to the Linn setup let me know. I would like to hear without thirty other audiophiles crammed into the room. Most of my friends think I'm insane. 99% of them think my acoustic panels are speakers and they ask in an incredulous tone, "you actually sit and listen to music?" But great thing is when they look to upgrade they will call me first so I guess they don't think I'm totally insane



yeah, I've got a reputation around the office as the crazy audio guy, so I can relate. Yet, like you, they come to me first when ever they are about to make an AV purchase, so at least their is some percieved merit in my insanity.


Of course most of these guys won't spend on speakers what I do on cables, so I often have my work cut out for me. Lots of NHT and Infinity Primus recommendations from me.


----------



## CLS

What is the MSRP for the Trinity?


Tnx


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cls* /forum/post/19210791
> 
> 
> what is the msrp of the trinity?
> 
> 
> Tnx



$10,450.


----------



## Puma Cat

Tim,

Since you iike an all-enveloping imaging that extend past the speakers,, have you considered the MBL 120-series?





























One of my local stores carries them and thinks very highly of them.


They image like nobody's business, and you'd be surprised at the bass output they have...


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19210210
> 
> 
> Totally will. If you go listen to the Linn setup let me know. I would like to hear without thirty other audiophiles crammed into the room. Most of my friends think I'm insane. 99% of them think my acoustic panels are speakers and they ask in an incredulous tone, "you actually sit and listen to music?" But great thing is when they look to upgrade they will call me first so I guess they don't think I'm totally insane



I had to bag this event at the last minute, but really wanted to hear the Linn stack. Sounds like it was an good event. You have to get on the mailing list for our fav. store in Bellevue. They have these events about every eight weeks and are usually well done. I think they had a Linn rep. from Scotland to demo the KLimax DS in particular.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19209822
> 
> 
> I had a worthwhile audition last week. Our local dealer has the outrageously priced, $55,000 Active Linn Speaker, connected to a $30,000 Linn Stack. I expected to be disappointed but I have to say I was very impressed. It was all high resolution recordings, but what really struck me was the huge sound stage from left to right and something I rarely hear which was very clear depth to the imaging. I've rarely experience the level of back to front imaging that these Linn's presented. I have no idea how much each component contributed to the sound (I suspect recording played a large part), but they'll have the setup for one more week before the Linn speakers are returned. I know you value sound stage highly so might be a fun listen for you.



There's a used pair of these speakers going for $14K on audiogon...it's the Artikulate which same speaker as the Klimax we heard; I'm not sure if they have the latest update....tempting, but they're too big for my room


----------



## ddgtr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Puma Cat* /forum/post/19211826
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> Since you iike an all-enveloping imaging that extend past the speakers,, have you considered the MBL 120-series?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of my local stores carries them and thinks very highly of them.
> 
> 
> They image like nobody's business, and you'd be surprised at the bass output they have...



Someone on this thread has a pair and loves them. $20K including stands...


----------



## adidino

The MBL is not a bad idea... something completely different in terms of design.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/19212922
> 
> 
> There's a used pair of these speakers going for $14K on audiogon...it's the Artikulate which same speaker as the Klimax we heard; I'm not sure if they have the latest update....tempting, but they're too big for my room



Yeah I think I saw those. But I believe those were the previous gen and passive. But not only was it too big for my room...they were also 14k


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Puma Cat* /forum/post/19211826
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> Since you iike an all-enveloping imaging that extend past the speakers,, have you considered the MBL 120-series?
> 
> 
> One of my local stores carries them and thinks very highly of them.
> 
> 
> They image like nobody's business, and you'd be surprised at the bass output they have...



The MBL speakers are some that I would like to experience before I die, but I don't know that I would want to own them unless they make them more attractive in the future.


A little too "Lost in Space" robot for me.


Separated at birth?


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19213281
> 
> 
> Yeah I think I saw those. But I believe those were the previous gen and passive. But not only was it too big for my room...they were also 14k



Yep, previous model, but they're upgradeable, remember? This pair is Aktive
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....350A-active-6-


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/19212922
> 
> 
> There's a used pair of these speakers going for $14K on audiogon...it's the Artikulate which same speaker as the Klimax we heard; I'm not sure if they have the latest update....tempting, but they're too big for my room



They sure are cool looking though. I've always like the look of their super tweeter / tweeter / midrange "3K Array".


I listened to the Akurates (passive) a couple of years ago and liked them quite a bit. Better than the 803D's that I compared them to at the time.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/19214109
> 
> 
> Yep, previous model, but they're upgradeable, remember? This pair is Aktive
> http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....350A-active-6-



That's right. Actually the listing you linked is a different one than I saw. Looks nice.


----------



## hifisponge

I've been dreaming for years of the possibility of true 3D sound, where the sound isn't stuck at the speaker plane, but instead placed at any location in the room, and it looks like some progress is being made!


With just two speakers no less.

http://videos.nj.com/star-ledger/201...rocket_sc.html 


I want to be a beta tester!


----------



## ddgtr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19231377
> 
> 
> I want to be a beta tester!



Tim, that video is fascinating! You would make a great beta tester. Unless of course the astrophysicist has been following your thread, in which case he is really scared of you!!














Just kidding Tim, it would be very cool to get to experience all of that before everyone else.


----------



## moonhawk

Cool video!


Imagine full surround sound with only two speakers--you could spend the same amount of money on two speakers instead of five or seven, and get much higher quality speakers. Maybe even cost the movie producers less.


Thanks for posting, Tim.


----------



## cachecoder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Cool video!
> 
> 
> Imagine full surround sound with only two speakers--you could spend the same amount of money on two speakers instead of five or seven, and get much higher quality speakers. Maybe even cost the movie producers less.
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting, Tim.



So funny. This sounds like the same idea/principle used by Bob Carver - holographic. I used to own some Carver components and, despite the audiophile snobery, they produced good 3D sound. Of course, that is much different from the neutral reproduction often sought.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cachecoder* /forum/post/19234362
> 
> 
> So funny. This sounds like the same idea/principle used by Bob Carver - holographic. I used to own some Carver components and, despite the audiophile snobery, they produced good 3D sound. Of course, that is much different from the neutral reproduction often sought.



It is my understanding that the Carver pseudo-surround is similar to many other simple approaches that invert the phase of parts of the signal to create the illusion of a more expansive sound. I get the impression that the tech in the video I posted is considerably more sophisticated.


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19234682
> 
> 
> It is my understanding that the Carver pseudo-surround is similar to many other simple approaches that invert the phase of parts of the signal to create the illusion of a more expansive sound. I get the impression that the tech in the video I posted is considerably more sophisticated.



From what I can gather, it is the same concept, originated not by Carver but Cooper-Bauck (Transaural), a form of cross-cancellation.


Choueiri's system uses >>sophisticated band-splitting to minimize any coloration when realizing very high levels of crosstalk cancellation even up to 20dB.


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19214103
> 
> 
> A little too "Lost in Space" robot for me.



You don't think it's more in the realm of Rosie the Robot??


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/19235081
> 
> 
> From what I can gather, it is the same concept, originated not by Carver but Cooper-Bauck (Transaural), a form of cross-cancellation.
> 
> 
> Choueiri's system uses >>sophisticated band-splitting to minimize any coloration when realizing very high levels of crosstalk cancellation even up to 20dB.


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19235343
> 
> 
> Do you know of any plans for this type of surround processing to be released for public consumption anytime soon?



Lexicon calls it Panorama. Dolby calls it Virtual Speaker. QSound has QSurround, and the list goes on.


But I think you are looking for more serious implmentations (although Lexicon's was pretty serious, with precise adjustments for seating location). Have a look at the Ambiophonics page . here you can see their more elaborate version, with front/rear speakers (the rear speakers work much the same as THX ASA), and the TacT 4-ch processor.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/19236645
> 
> 
> Lexicon calls it Panorama. Dolby calls it Virtual Speaker. QSound has QSurround, and the list goes on.
> 
> 
> But I think you are looking for more serious implmentations (although Lexicon's was pretty serious, with precise adjustments for seating location). Have a look at the Ambiophonics page . here you can see their more elaborate version, with front/rear speakers (the rear speakers work much the same as THX ASA), and the TacT 4-ch processor.



Damn, as you may remember, I had the Lex MC12 and I never tried that option, thinking it was just another gimmicky effect the likes of "hall, jazz, nightclub, etc." I still miss the Lex for its L7 surround. I've toyed with the thought of picking up the Lex again, but I'd really like to have a processor with on-board EQ.


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19236664
> 
> 
> Damn, as you may remember, I had the Lex MC12 and I never tried that option, thinking it was just another gimmicky effect the likes of "hall, jazz, nightclub, etc." I still miss the Lex for its L7 surround. I've toyed with the thought of picking up the Lex again, but I'd really like to have a processor with on-board EQ.



The replacement for the MC12 is rumored to be a tour-de-force in the EQ department. Harman's best room EQ plus SFM for multiple subs.


----------



## ultra 150 pilot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/19237025
> 
> 
> The replacement for the MC12 is rumored to be a tour-de-force in the EQ department. Harman's best room EQ plus SFM for multiple subs.



ya but at what price? 15....20k?







not a lot of folks are droppin that kind of cash on pre pros these days! you never know when they will close their doors


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/19237025
> 
> 
> The replacement for the MC12 is rumored to be a tour-de-force in the EQ department. Harman's best room EQ plus SFM for multiple subs.



That would be great. Where have you heard these rumors?


----------



## bioforce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/19237025
> 
> 
> The replacement for the MC12 is rumored to be a tour-de-force in the EQ department. Harman's best room EQ plus SFM for multiple subs.



I heard the same thing. My distributor seemed excited about coming by with a LEXY after he gets back from CEDIA. (where it is now being introduced/shown)


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bioforce* /forum/post/19239297
> 
> 
> I heard the same thing. My distributor seemed excited about coming by with a LEXY after he gets back from CEDIA. (where it is now being introduced/shown)



"No news on MC12HD replacement at Cedia."










This is according to someone reporting from the Cedia show in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=19235494


----------



## bioforce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19239449
> 
> 
> "No news on MC12HD replacement at Cedia."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is according to someone reporting from the Cedia show in this thread:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=19235494



Not a good sign


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bioforce* /forum/post/19239499
> 
> 
> Not a good sign



Disappointing for me for sure. I would love to go back to a Lex processor, but the current one is just too behind the times.


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19238539
> 
> 
> That would be great. Where have you heard these rumors?



The idea of "flagship EQ" is based on the many tests Harman has been conducting on their own roomEQ system and discussed in Sean's thread on room correction . It's a bit of reading between the lines there.


The idea that the product will contain SFM is more explicit and comes from a communication from Synthesis tech rep, David Glass, as reported here:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptruce* /forum/post/19024313
> 
> 
> To get all the processes right we need more then what BassQ does. In actuality what you need are (1) multiple subwoofer placed properly with Sound Field Management of the multiple subwoofers to get the lowest seat to seat variation; (2) EQ correction of room modes in the global subwoofer signal; (3) EQ correction in the LCR speakers, as there is significant energy in the room over the crossover even at 80hz standard where the LCR are acting down to at least 60, or perhaps lower hz (I have seen 50 or even 40 where they have an impact); (4) and an all-pass (phase) filter to get the proper summation of all the LCR with the Subwoofers. Currently only one product does this, the JBL Synthesis SDEC4500, but most of this will be included in the next generation Lexicon Processor, though with a reduction of measurement resolution, and less filters for room correction.


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks Roger.


I've followed Sean's thread on RC and figured that the Harman EQ tech that took the top two spots in the test would eventually make it into a Lexicon product. I was just hoping that you had some inside info that the release of new Lex processor was close by.


----------



## sdurani




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19240384
> 
> 
> I was just hoping that you had some inside info that the release of new Lex processor was close by.



Posted yesterday in the Lexicon section at SMR Forums:


> Quote:
> The replacement for the MC12HD is still coming, but was not far enough along to show at CEDIA. It would be very poor of me to talk in specifics since there are still quite a few options and possible final decisions to be made but here is what I can confirm: It will be a PLATFORM that other products will be based on, and we expect it to last close to 10 years, in the same way that the MC12 did. To that end it will be overbuilt, with many ways to upgrade both hardware and software as technology changes.
> 
> 
> It will have more DSP in one single channel then all the products before it put together. It will have the successor to Logic7, which will do everything Logic7 did, plus everything DolbyIIz or any of the other current offerings can do and more, but better in the way Lexicon has been known for. Beyond that, I can only say that with a little luck and lots of hard work there will be something more official at CES.
> 
> 
> Todd Packer
> 
> Field Application Engineer
> 
> Harman High Performance A/V
> 
> Lexicon - Mark Levinson - JBL Synthesis - Revel


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks much Sanjay! Now I just hope the thing doesn't come in with a price tag of $20K!










One thing is for sure though, I will have to rethink my intent to buy the NAD M15HD until there is more news on the new Lex. It gives me something to look forward to, but damn I hate playing the waiting game.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sdurani* /forum/post/19261754
> 
> 
> Posted yesterday in the Lexicon section at SMR Forums:



Glad they're not pulling an Oppo with this!


----------



## sdurani




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19263016
> 
> 
> I just hope the thing doesn't come in with a price tag of $20K!



Not in this economy and not in this market (Integra really changed the value proposition for pre-pros a few years back).


> Quote:
> _I hate playing the waiting game._



Same here. Made even more frustrating by the fact that Lex never says anything official until the product is about to ship. As Dr. Evil used to say "Thow me a frickin' bone!"


----------



## sdurani




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/19267418
> 
> 
> Glad they're not pulling an Oppo with this!



Why would they? Surround processors are their speciality (they've always had proprietary surround processing and, more recently, room correction). Historically, all their amps and disc players have been re-badges, because they have no expertise in those areas.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> It will be a PLATFORM that other products will be based on...



Sanjay - What do you make of this part of the comment you posted from Todd P.? What other products? Are they referring to something like the JBL rebadge of the MC12 and/or using the new Lex processor as the basis for a future Mark Levinson processor, and that sort of thing?


----------



## sdurani




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19268138
> 
> 
> Are they referring to something like the JBL rebadge of the MC12 and/or using the new Lex processor as the basis for a future Mark Levinson processor, and that sort of thing?



I'm guessing 'all of the above'. The pre-pro part of the JBL Synthesis packages will probably continue to be re-badged Lexicons, as they've always been. The last Mark Levinson processor was basically a beefed up version of the MC-12, and that trend will probably continue. If they've come up with a good hardware solution, then why not use it on ML and Lex pre-pros, rather than just one or the other?


The other thing I think Todd meant by "platform" is within Lexicon itself. Back in 2001 when the MC-12 came out, Lex made no announcement that scaled down models (MC-8, MC-4) were in the works. I think Todd is making that clearer now. So if the new flagship ends up being out of my price range, I won't give up hope on having the new surround processing and room correction (something more affordable, based on the same platform, will eventually come out).


----------



## hifisponge

I have no problem with them reusing the tech developed for the Lex in other products. It makes good business sense, and I would expect tech to be shared within the companies under the Harman umbrella.


However, based on the pricing of their Blu-Ray player, and the current $14K sticker for the MC12HD, I do have to wonder if the price of the MC12 replacement will actually be influenced by the likes of Integra. If anything, I can only hope that they look at something like the Classe SSP-800 as their competition and price within range of that piece.


----------



## Randy Bessinger

This discussion on Lexicon really peaks my interest as it sounds like the processor that will incorporate alot of Sean's work. Sanjay, any guesses as to whether it will show at CES?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Randy Bessinger* /forum/post/19273212
> 
> 
> This discussion on Lexicon really peaks my interest as it sounds like the processor that will incorporate alot of Sean's work. Sanjay, any guesses as to whether it will show at CES?



I assume you are referring to the study that Sean did on the different Room Correction solutions, including two unreleased systems by Harman.


This study:
Objective and Subjective Evaluation of Room Correction Products 


So is it Sean's work that will go into the Lex, or the work of Harman that Sean studied?


----------



## Randy Bessinger




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19273875
> 
> 
> I assume you are referring to the study that Sean did on the different Room Correction solutions, including two unreleased systems by Harman.
> 
> 
> This study:
> Objective and Subjective Evaluation of Room Correction Products
> 
> 
> So is it Sean's work that will go into the Lex, or the work of Harman that Sean studied?



I am assuming but don't know for sure that they would use Harmon's work with anything Sean discovered in his objective comparisions. When I said Sean, I meant really Tooles, Welti, Olive work together and apart. Much probably that hasn't even been published. I think some of the published material is more a matter of presenting to the public the fruits of their labor (and how it stacks up against the competition).


I should add Greisinger's name since it is Lexicon. I know he is now retired but I don't know if some of his final work will find it's way into the new Lexicon.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Randy Bessinger* /forum/post/19274254
> 
> 
> I think some of the published material is more a matter of presenting to the public the fruits of their labor (and how it stacks up against the competition).



Yes, good point, the "study of" and "contribution to" are likely intertwined.


----------



## sdurani




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Randy Bessinger* /forum/post/19273212
> 
> 
> Sanjay, any guesses as to whether it will show at CES?



No idea. When our local home theatre group got a tour of Harman International earlier this year, I asked Kevin Voecks for an ETA. He said he didn't know; he made it clear that he wasn't trying to be cautious or coy about a release date, he literally wasn't sure when they would be finished.


He said that their own technologies (room correction, surround processing) was locked in, but licensed items continued to remain a moving target. The last thing they needed was a pre-pro that didn't have, for example, the latest version of HDMI: "how come the new Lexicon flagship can't pass 3-D like a $400 receiver can?"


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Randy Bessinger* /forum/post/19274254
> 
> 
> I should add Greisinger's name since it is Lexicon. I know he is now retired but I don't know if some of his final work will find it's way into the new Lexicon.



Supposedly Greisinger "gave his blessings" to the new surround processing, which is somewhat similar to what he'd been working on (separating the dry part of the recording from the ambient part). But there is none of Greisinger's actual work in the new pre-pro. Nor will you find any remnant of Jim Muller's room correction from the MC-12. The old guard is gone. But the new brain trust (Toole, Welti, Olive, Devantier) ain't too shabby.


----------



## sdurani




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19268646
> 
> 
> However, based on the pricing of their Blu-Ray player, and the current $14K sticker for the MC12HD, I do have to wonder if the price of the MC12 replacement will actually be influenced by the likes of Integra.



At $3.5K, their current BD player is cheaper than their last DVD player ($5K). The realities of the market. So I wouldn't be surprised if their upcoming pre-pro compares similarly to the MC-12HD pricewise.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sdurani* /forum/post/19275170
> 
> 
> At $3.5K, their current BD player is cheaper than their last DVD player ($5K). The realities of the market. So I wouldn't be surprised if their upcoming pre-pro compares similarly to the MC-12HD pricewise.



Hmm, I didn't realize that their last DVD player was $5K. So with this new thinking, if their new BD player is 70% the cost of their previous DVD player, maybe the "MC13" will be under $10K. That would be tasty.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19263016
> 
> 
> Thanks much Sanjay! Now I just hope the thing doesn't come in with a price tag of $20K!





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sdurani* /forum/post/19267530
> 
> 
> Not in this economy and not in this market (Integra really changed the value proposition for pre-pros a few years back).



Having owned several Lex processors in the past, I'm quite intrigued by the news of this new processor.


As far as price, the MC12B was $12k. The new McIntosh MX150 is $12k and the Krell 707 is a whopping $30k.







I hope what you say is true and Lex is able to sell this beast at a "reasonable" price point. My fingers are crossed.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/19309756
> 
> 
> Having owned several Lex processors in the past, I'm quite intrigued by the news of this new processor.
> 
> 
> As far as price, the MC12B was $12k. The new McIntosh MX150 is $12k and the Krell 707 is a whopping $30k.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope what you say is true and Lex is able to sell this beast at a "reasonable" price point. My fingers are crossed.



Well, technology is always getting smaller, faster, cheaper, so they should be able to pull it off if their engineering overhead isn't too great.


The MC12B*HD* was $14,000.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19309783
> 
> 
> Well, technology is always getting smaller, faster, cheaper, so they should be able to pull it off if their engineering overhead isn't too great.
> 
> 
> The MC12B*HD* was $14,000.



See, I was already off by $2k.










Believe me, I hope they do pull it off.


----------



## hifisponge

Hey guys -


If you are looking for a gorgeous, compact floorstander, made to impeccable German standards, there are a pair of very rare and soon to be highly sought after Audio Physic Virgo 25's in gloss black on Audiogon right now for a very reasonable price. I know the person selling them and he's a stand-up guy (if a bit of speaker junkie).









Click here to Buy Now! This is a limited time offer!










They really are great speakers, they just need a good home.


----------



## weird 23

Ouch! You're really taking a hit with those. Have you missed having a complete surround system or are you more of a two channel guy?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19311939
> 
> 
> Ouch! You're really taking a hit with those. Have you missed having a complete surround system or are you more of a two channel guy?



Yeah, resale on speakers is worse than cars. The minute you drive the speakers off the lot, they're worth half of what you paid.


I'm a surround hound, so yes, I've missed having the full 5 speaker set. I've been stuck with 2CH over the past 10 months because I wanted to find the right speakers before buying the complete set.


As it turns out, the right speakers were the ones I owned before I started the search. Doh!


----------



## ddgtr

Tim, it is a great deal! Too bad it's not good timing for me, I would be heading North to pick up these babies. Seriously...


So is it set, are you going back to the WB's? How about Classe, is it totally out or still in the running vs the Lex?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/19313880
> 
> 
> Tim, it is a great deal! Too bad it's not good timing for me, I would be heading North to pick up these babies. Seriously...
> 
> 
> So is it set, are you going back to the WB's? How about Classe, is it totally out or still in the running vs the Lex?













Well, the Virgo 25's will be making their North American debut at RMAF next week, so maybe after a few more people get their ears on them, I'll have a few more perspective buyers.


They really are great sounding speakers. They have that something special that gets the head bobbing and toes tapping.


So anyway, yes, back to WB monitors for me. I haven't ruled out going back to Classe, but with the new Lexicon processor supposedly on the horizon, I want to at least wait for the early reports on that one. I was very happy with the MC12HD I owned. It may not be quite as transparent as the SSP-800, but I think my experience with the Lex was colored by some unpleasant speakers that I paired with it later in my ownership of it.


----------



## R Harkness

So you're the guy with the Virgo 25's on audiogon. I seriously didn't think I'd ever see someone be as much as a speaker nut as I used to be. (I literally travelled everywhere just to hear different speakers, to the degree I'd heard almost any highly touted speaker you could name...no time for that anymore after kids).


I've always loved the Audio Physic line and have had the original Virgos, Libra and the Scorpios in my room at one time or another. The new Virgo is one of those few new speakers that I'm super intrigued to hear. These days with high end stores having been culled to a bare minimum it's hard to check out speakers directly.


Recently I lucked into a pair of MBL omnidirectional monitors. I never thought I'd have the cash to own anything MBL so it's a bit of a dream realised for me. (Have you checked out the MBL line at all, for instance their famous MBL 101E speaker "watermelons from mars."?)


Have you listened to the latest Thiel CS 3.7? If so what did you think?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *R Harkness* /forum/post/19341934
> 
> 
> So you're the guy with the Virgo 25's on audiogon. I seriously didn't think I'd ever see someone be as much as a speaker nut as I used to be. (I literally travelled everywhere just to hear different speakers, to the degree I'd heard almost any highly touted speaker you could name...no time for that anymore after kids).
> 
> 
> I've always loved the Audio Physic line and have had the original Virgos, Libra and the Scorpios in my room at one time or another. The new Virgo is one of those few new speakers that I'm super intrigued to hear. These days with high end stores having been culled to a bare minimum it's hard to check out speakers directly.
> 
> 
> Recently I lucked into a pair of MBL omnidirectional monitors. I never thought I'd have the cash to own anything MBL so it's a bit of a dream realised for me. (Have you checked out the MBL line at all, for instance their famous MBL 101E speaker "watermelons from mars."?)
> 
> 
> Have you listened to the latest Thiel CS 3.7? If so what did you think?



Hey Rich -


Good to meet someone that understands me.










I think you posted here a while back, shortly after you acquired the MBLs. At the time I was inquiring about the C1's and I think you chimed in on that discussion. (Edit: nope, I just checked and it was another AVSer, but i recognize your name from my searches on the AP brand.







)


Anyway, yup those are my Virgo 25's up for sale on Agon. I wish they could have stayed longer, but with my limited placement options, I ran into pretty severe midrange cancellation from the right speaker that is too close to the side wall. It is a lovely sounding speaker when placed properly though. Surprisingly organic for a speaker with all metal drivers.


I have not listened to single Thiel speaker. The big shop here in Seattle used to carry them many years ago, but that was before I could afford such things. Now the nearest dealer is something like 2 hours away.


I would love to hear the MBLs, because they are such a unique design and because I hear that they provide a wicked sense of space and envelopment. But again, with my placement restrictions, they probably wouldn't work in my room. So do they live up to your expectations as your ultimate dream speaker? And what was your favorite speaker prior to the MBL?


----------



## R Harkness




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19342236
> 
> 
> Hey Rich -
> 
> 
> Good to meet someone that understands me.



Oh yeah. Up until recently I had, aside from my 7.0 surround speakers, 4 other pairs of high end speakers kicking around. I think my wife was right that it was getting a bit ridiculous so I sold the Audio Physics and my meadowlark monitors (still have my Waveform monitors - egg shaped - and my MBLs, along with my Hales L/C/R speakers).


I used to do a little reviewing of audio gear, not any more. A pal of mine reviews for an on-line mag so I still get to hear plenty of crazy high-end gear at his place.


The Audio Physic speaker line has always been special for me (and other AP fans) because they somehow managed to combined qualities that seemed to rarely occur together in other speakers: that is an amazing retrieval of detail and spaciousness, combined with a convincingly warm, organic timbre.

So often speakers that put out tons of detail would have a cold, analytical character that revealed all the details but made the sound actually less timbrally convincing. On Audio Physic speakers wood sounds like wood, voices like flesh and blood people etc. Plus, I just love a speaker that "disappears" and leaves little trace of sounding like cones in a box.


I haven't heard an Audio Physic speaker that quite captured the timbral beauty I remember in the original Virgo, but that original Virgo had it's problems, especially a somewhat mush-inducing mid-bass hump. AP speakers have tended to get better over time on that issue. The Scorpios were quite coherent, and sounded organic too, but not quite as gorgeous as some of the other AP speakers.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19342236
> 
> 
> Anyway, yup those are my Virgo 25's up for sale on Agon. I wish they could have stayed longer, but with my limited placement options, I ran into pretty severe midrange cancellation from the right speaker that is too close to the side wall. It is a lovely sounding speaker when placed properly though. Surprisingly organic for a speaker with all metal drivers.



One of the things I love about my Hales speakers, and why I sought them out even though Hales went out of business a while back, is they do the same thing: they use metal drivers and reap some of the benefits of metal drivers, without ever sounding harsh and rarely metallic, but very relaxed and organic. I can hear every detail on the soundtracks for movies but the sound is so relaxing and easy to take in, which is a huge benefit for me since I do Sound Design for film and TV. Essentially I'm "doing home theater" all day long and it's nice, after a day of working on gunfire, crashes and other FX to be able to still turn on my system at night and have my ears go "Aaahhh..."


As for placement issues I know how you feel. I have an odd little room with bay windows that, funny enough, has actually worked miracles with speakers big and small. I'd always been able to get good sound. However when I switched the layout of speakers 180 degrees to do home theater my accoustics went to hell! It sounded terrible! It was so bad I literally thought my music listening days may have been over - sucked out midrange, hashy high end, uneven sound...I just wanted to turn things off.


However I consulted an acoustician and did a lot of acoustic work during the construction and thank goodness things turned around. It's now a great sounding room, better than ever. And getting rid of lots of early reflections makes the sound so relaxing in the room. Even guests who visit and who have no idea about things audio always comment on how they love the relaxing, quiet "sound" of the room. Obviously you have found out too how much paying attention to acoustics can do for the listening room.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19342236
> 
> 
> I have not listened to single Thiel speaker. The big shop here in Seattle used to carry them many years ago, but that was before I could afford such things. Now the nearest dealer is something like 2 hours away.



In my experience Thiels have an (almost) unique quality to their sound that distinguishes them from other speakers. That is, a "density" to the sound.

It's a combination, I think, of the engineering that allows the drivers to be quite dynamic (even within the limitations of their unique crossover network)

and the sound to be very focused (perhaps due to first order design). But sitting in front of well set up Thiels the sonic "image" of a singer, or a saxophone, or guitar, or xylophone just sounds so solid and "there," like a dense object projecting sound toward you. It's like Thiel speakers take all the sonic information about an object that is dilated by other speakers, and focuses it down into an acoustic point making for a more dense impression of the instrument playing. Sometimes this means the images can seem a bit "smaller" than some other speakers, even occasionally squeezed a bit too tight, but that can be played with via speaker positioning as well. It's just that much more convincing than most speakers I hear on that particular count.


Thiels have had a rep for being detailed and "accurate" but also a bit harsh or sterile which would be the last thing I'd want in a speaker. However I had a revelation at a CES when I heard the Theil CS6s played with some VAC tube amps. It was some of the most gorgeous, convincing sound I'd ever heard at a show. Later I paired the CS6's with my Conrad Johnson Premier 12 tube monoblock amps (140W per side) at home and, to answer your question, it was probably my favorite combination I ever had in my room.


Due to space constraints in the HT room I've pretty much had to abandon big floor standing speakers (my only regret).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19342236
> 
> 
> I would love to hear the MBLs, because they are such a unique design and because I hear that they provide a wicked sense of space and envelopment. But again, with my placement restrictions, they probably wouldn't work in my room. So do they live up to your expectations as your ultimate dream speaker?



The MBLs are terrific and now that I've had time to play with them they are giving me some of the astonishing experiences I'd expected from MBL. The effortless resolution of their midrange and tweeter modules is unlike any other speaker in my experience. It's not at all a "tweeter-like" experience hearing high end reproduced by the MBLs, but just an organic, natural "there," like a drum cymbal being played in the room....no hash to the sound, just "there." Most other speakers sound like cones in a box, tweeters and midranges, after hearing the MBLs.


And spatially - holy cow! Although most speakers I've had have done amazing soundstaging, the MBLs edge into a league of their own, the way musicians suddenly appear in a carved out space between the speakers. It's like you get a sense not only of space between the instruments, but actually around them, behind them, so you get this feeling of dimensional objects being played that few other speakers capture.


The MBLs are wickedly low in sensitivity, around 81 dB I believe. Yet my CJ amps are driving them fine in my room and believe it or not I'm actually loving their sound when played with my old Eico HF-81 tube amp at 18 watts/side! I don't play my system super loud though.


I've come to terms with the fact nothing is perfect and any thoughts of "this is the last speaker I'll own" are attempts at self delusion. There is always something another speaker does better. The MBLs sound superb, but don't go very low and I am aware on various material that I'm missing stuff a full range speaker would bring to the table. Still, they are great to have around as an amazing place to visit, sonically.


I'll keep watching your speaker journey, which has been great fun to read about!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *R Harkness* /forum/post/19342641
> 
> 
> Oh yeah. Up until recently I had, aside from my 7.0 surround speakers, 4 other pairs of high end speakers kicking around. I think my wife was right that it was getting a bit ridiculous so I sold the Audio Physics and my meadowlark monitors (still have my Waveform monitors - egg shaped - and my MBLs, along with my Hales L/C/R speakers).



That’s something I wish I could do, have several different sets of speakers around, for a change in perspective and to keep things fresh, but I have only the one room and it is dual purpose, so it would be impractical.



> Quote:
> I used to do a little reviewing of audio gear, not any more. A pal of mine reviews for an on-line mag so I still get to hear plenty of crazy high-end gear at his place.



First, I can tell by your descriptive writing skills in your last post that you have a talent for describing what you hear. That is not an easy thing to do, and I often find my vocabulary too limited. Second, I’m jealous that you have the ability to easily listen to an assortment of high-end gear though your reviewer friend.



> Quote:
> The Audio Physic speaker line has always been special for me (and other AP fans) because they somehow managed to combined qualities that seemed to rarely occur together in other speakers: that is an amazing retrieval of detail and spaciousness, combined with a convincingly warm, organic timbre.
> 
> So often speakers that put out tons of detail would have a cold, analytical character that revealed all the details but made the sound actually less timbrally convincing. On Audio Physic speakers wood sounds like wood, voices like flesh and blood people etc. Plus, I just love a speaker that "disappears" and leaves little trace of sounding like cones in a box.



Yup, that pretty much nails what I hear from the AP Virgo 25’s. They really do challenge my preconceptions of what speakers with metal drivers sound like. The Wilson Benesch speakers possess many of the same qualities and to me the WB midrange and soundstage are even a step up from the APs. The midrange of the WBs sounds closer to real than any other speaker I’ve owned, and the soundstage is intoxicatingly expansive. Like the APs the sound is relaxed, but not recessed or boring. Its vivid but never aggressive or strained. It took me a while to grasp those differences, because I had always thought that a relaxed sound was either dark or recessed.



> Quote:
> I haven't heard an Audio Physic speaker that quite captured the timbral beauty I remember in the original Virgo, but that original Virgo had it's problems, especially a somewhat mush-inducing mid-bass hump. AP speakers have tended to get better over time on that issue. The Scorpios were quite coherent, and sounded organic too, but not quite as gorgeous as some of the other AP speakers.



I’ve often read this when I came across on-line discussions about the history of the Virgo. I have no reference since I haven’t heard the original Virgo, but I can say for sure that the bass is very well controlled and well balanced in the Virgo 25. Speaking of the older AP speakers, I listened to the original Spark, and it had a problem in the bass that sounds very similar to your description of the Virgo 1.



> Quote:
> One of the things I love about my Hales speakers, and why I sought them out even though Hales went out of business a while back, is they do the same thing: they use metal drivers and reap some of the benefits of metal drivers, without ever sounding harsh and rarely metallic, but very relaxed and organic. I can hear every detail on the soundtracks for movies but the sound is so relaxing and easy to take in, which is a huge benefit for me since I do Sound Design for film and TV. Essentially I'm "doing home theater" all day long and it's nice, after a day of working on gunfire, crashes and other FX to be able to still turn on my system at night and have my ears go "Aaahhh..."



Yup, I think we are on the same page for what we enjoy. I won’t stick with a speaker for very long if it does anything harsh or outwardly colored. Though, I have recently become more appreciative of speakers that have really good dynamics. Not “dynamic” as in maximum loudness or bass and treble extension, but rather the jump factor, snap, and transient response. The Revel Gems (the originals) I had on loan were fantastic in this regard. But often snappy speakers can be wearing.



> Quote:
> As for placement issues I know how you feel. I have an odd little room with bay windows that, funny enough, has actually worked miracles with speakers big and small. I'd always been able to get good sound. However when I switched the layout of speakers 180 degrees to do home theater my acoustics went to hell! It sounded terrible! It was so bad I literally thought my music listening days may have been over - sucked out midrange, hashy high end, uneven sound...I just wanted to turn things off.
> 
> 
> However I consulted an acoustician and did a lot of acoustic work during the construction and thank goodness things turned around. It's now a great sounding room, better than ever. And getting rid of lots of early reflections makes the sound so relaxing in the room. Even guests who visit and who have no idea about things audio always comment on how they love the relaxing, quiet "sound" of the room. Obviously you have found out too how much paying attention to acoustics can do for the listening room.



Yes, I know exacting what you are referring to. My now acoustically treated room has a very pleasantly quiet “sound” to it. When I first had friends over, I would take them into the kitchen and have them talk, then bring them into the treated room and speak again. No one would complain about the sound of their voice in the kitchen, but it amazing how much cleaner it sounds when you remove most of the reverb. It is the equivalent of achieving a noise free picture and true video black.



> Quote:
> In my experience Thiels have an (almost) unique quality to their sound that distinguishes them from other speakers. That is, a "density" to the sound. It's a combination, I think, of the engineering that allows the drivers to be quite dynamic (even within the limitations of their unique crossover network) and the sound to be very focused (perhaps due to first order design). But sitting in front of well set up Thiels the sonic "image" of a singer, or a saxophone, or guitar, or xylophone just sounds so solid and "there," like a dense object projecting sound toward you. It's like Thiel speakers take all the sonic information about an object that is dilated by other speakers, and focuses it down into an acoustic point making for a more dense impression of the instrument playing. Sometimes this means the images can seem a bit "smaller" than some other speakers, even occasionally squeezed a bit too tight, but that can be played with via speaker positioning as well. It's just that much more convincing than most speakers I hear on that particular count.



Interesting. This gives me something new to listen for and piques my interest in at least trying to make an effort to hear a set of Thiels.



> Quote:
> Thiels have had a rep for being detailed and "accurate" but also a bit harsh or sterile which would be the last thing I'd want in a speaker. However I had a revelation at a CES when I heard the Theil CS6s played with some VAC tube amps. It was some of the most gorgeous, convincing sound I'd ever heard at a show. Later I paired the CS6's with my Conrad Johnson Premier 12 tube monoblock amps (140W per side) at home and, to answer your question, it was probably my favorite combination I ever had in my room.



It is the Thiel’s reputation for sounding sterile and sometimes harsh that has kept me from pursuing them, but now that you point out the image density attribute, I would still like to hear them.


What I find most interesting though is how your impression of the speaker changed 180 degrees when the Thiels were mated to tube amps. I’m had that same experience with other edgy, overly sharp speakers on a couple of occasions, and with your experience it seems like a trend. Take a ruthlessly detailed speaker and pair it with a tub amp, and something almost magical happens. You get all the detail, but artifice drops away.



> Quote:
> Due to space constraints in the HT room I've pretty much had to abandon big floor standing speakers (my only regret).



I think if I had a larger space, I might be more accepting of large speakers, but every time I’ve tried to squeeze even small or medium floorstanders into my room, I find them too visually dominating. And like you with flea watt amps, I find that I just don’t listen at volumes that require large speakers, so I’m most happy with high quality monitors. Oh, and of course since I always use a sub, I don’t have to make a compromise on bass extension either.



> Quote:
> The MBLs are terrific and now that I've had time to play with them they are giving me some of the astonishing experiences I'd expected from MBL. The effortless resolution of their midrange and tweeter modules is unlike any other speaker in my experience. It's not at all a "tweeter-like" experience hearing high end reproduced by the MBLs, but just an organic, natural "there," like a drum cymbal being played in the room....no hash to the sound, just "there." Most other speakers sound like cones in a box, tweeters and midranges, after hearing the MBLs.
> 
> 
> And spatially - holy cow! Although most speakers I've had have done amazing soundstaging, the MBLs edge into a league of their own, the way musicians suddenly appear in a carved out space between the speakers. It's like you get a sense not only of space between the instruments, but actually around them, behind them, so you get this feeling of dimensional objects being played that few other speakers capture.



That all sounds fantastic! I think I will stay away from these until I can potentially own them. I don’t want to spoil what I have. However, and we probably differ here, some of the most amazing soundstaging and convincing three-dimensionality I’ve experienced was during my ownership of the Lexicon MC12HD processor. Dedicated 2Ch guys shudder at the thought of such audio trickery, but when all the parameters for Logic 7 are dialed in, you are no longer listening to the performance, you are there.



> Quote:
> The MBLs are wickedly low in sensitivity, around 81 dB I believe. Yet my CJ amps are driving them fine in my room and believe it or not I'm actually loving their sound when played with my old Eico HF-81 tube amp at 18 watts/side! I don't play my system super loud though.



I’m with ya. I think too much value is placed on high-power amps. They just aren’t needed most of the time.



> Quote:
> I've come to terms with the fact nothing is perfect and any thoughts of "this is the last speaker I'll own" are attempts at self delusion. There is always something another speaker does better. The MBLs sound superb, but don't go very low and I am aware on various material that I'm missing stuff a full range speaker would bring to the table. Still, they are great to have around as an amazing place to visit, sonically.



It has taken me a while and many, many speakers, but I too realize that nothing is perfect and I’m just not the sort of guy to stick with one thing for too long. However, when I do decide to make a change, I will be less drastic in the way that I handle that.











> Quote:
> I'll keep watching your speaker journey, which has been great fun to read about!



Stop by any time. Good to have you here.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19313516
> 
> 
> As it turns out, the right speakers were the ones I owned before I started the search. Doh!



So where are you turning at this point (B&W)?


Also, are you connecting your speakers in bi-amp configuration or conventional?


----------



## ddingle

How about a set of Line Arrays? Hard to ship,but we have built a bunch of them lately. Considered by some to be the"ultimate" home listening experience.

Sorry about the small pic. 22 midrange and 44 tweeters as I recall.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19372578
> 
> 
> So where are you turning at this point (B&W)?
> 
> 
> Also, are you connecting your speakers in bi-amp configuration or conventional?



Hey WCD -


Nope, not B&W, but if you reverse those letters, you've got it.









http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post19186998 


Oh, and just single wire for me. Most of my speaker cabling is in-wall, so I don't really have the option for bi-wire.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddingle* /forum/post/19372929
> 
> 
> How about a set of Line Arrays? Hard to ship,but we have built a bunch of them lately. Considered by some to be the"ultimate" home listening experience.
> 
> Sorry about the small pic. 22 midrange and 44 tweeters as I recall.



I'm sure that those would be the ultimate in home audio, or at least very impressive, but until I have a larger space, high-performance monitors / standmounts are the only speakers that have consistently worked for me.


----------



## ddingle

They are kind of big! They seem to be more "you are there" than any speaker I have experienced. At least for any length of time.

Brady's son Alexander is on the wrong side of the fence in this photo.We actually installed them in a client's home theater without grills! He wanted ultimate results.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddingle* /forum/post/19375040
> 
> 
> They are kind of big! They seem to be more "you are there" than any speaker I have experienced. At least for any length of time.
> 
> Brady's son Alexander is on the wrong side of the fence in this photo.We actually installed them in a client's home theater without grills! He wanted ultimate results.



Who makes them? I'm a tech guy, but I don't know the first thing about line-arrays. What are the trade-offs with the design, other than size? Are all of tweets run with the same bandwidth, and likewise the mids? What's the cost?


----------



## ddingle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19375378
> 
> 
> Who makes them? I'm a tech guy, but I don't know the first thing about line-arrays. What are the trade-offs with the design, other than size? Are all of tweets run with the same bandwidth, and likewise the mids? What's the cost?



We work with a speaker designer who is very familiar with Line Array design. He actually has a local driver manufacturer build midrange drivers specifically for them.Brady our cabinet guy makes the cabinets.

Here is a white paper on the technology.

http://www.audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf


----------



## ddingle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddingle* /forum/post/19376019
> 
> 
> We work with a speaker designer who is very familiar with Line Array design. He actually has a local driver manufacturer build midrange drivers specifically for them.Brady our cabinet guy makes the cabinets.
> 
> Here is a white paper on the technology.
> 
> http://www.audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf



The cost is pretty high if the cabinet finish is really important.

We actually used a Marchand electronic crossover combined with Hypex amplifiers in a single chassis for a biamplified Line Array.That is what Brady is using with the pictured set. There are passive options as well. The efficiency and Dynamic Range are off the hook,so either way they sound great. Trying not to be "commercial" here on AVS,but if you are willing to do some leg work there might be a way to offer a "special" for someone who has been searching for the Holy Grail of Loudspeakers!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddingle* /forum/post/19378202
> 
> 
> The cost is pretty high if the cabinet finish is really important.
> 
> We actually used a Marchand electronic crossover combined with Hypex amplifiers in a single chassis for a biamplified Line Array.That is what Brady is using with the pictured set. There are passive options as well. The efficiency and Dynamic Range are off the hook,so either way they sound great. Trying not to be "commercial" here on AVS,but if you are willing to do some leg work there might be a way to offer a "special" for someone who has been searching for the Holy Grail of Loudspeakers!



Hi DD -


Thanks for the additional info and I appreciate the offer, but I already have an order placed for a set of Wilson Benesch speakers, and as flexible as my wife is with me and this hobby, tall line-arrays wouldn't fly. I will keep you and your speakers in mind for the future though.


Cheers!


----------



## vantagesc

Tim,

Line-arrays are constant beam width transducers (in theory at least) so in some sense, they are one of those "controlled directivity" speakers.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Constant_...vity_louds.htm (scroll down a bit) Edit: There is a discussion somewhere of the benefits of line arrays on the Linkwitz site, but I cannot find it. Conclusion was something like: very interesting and potentially beneficial, but too impractical for home use. He had used line arrays in a commercial environment.


At this point, standard 2-way / 3-way speakers with passive crossovers stuffed in a monkey coffin are just too "in the box" thinking for me at this point. No pun intended.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/19378810
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> Line-arrays are constant beam width transducers (in theory at least) so in some sense, they are one of those "controlled directivity" speakers.
> 
> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Constant_...vity_louds.htm (scroll down a bit) Edit: There is a discussion somewhere of the benefits of line arrays on the Linkwitz site, but I cannot find it. Conclusion was something like: very interesting and potentially beneficial, but too impractical for home use. He had used line arrays in a commercial environment.




Shortly after I asked the question I did a google search and found that as your state, line arrays are designed to have a narrow dispersion pattern.



> Quote:
> At this point, standard 2-way / 3-way speakers with passive crossovers stuffed in a monkey coffin are just too "in the box" thinking for me at this point. No pun intended.



Well until I get a room with more placement flexibility, or they start making active studio monitors that look less like studio monitors, passively crossed monkey coffins are the only option for me.


----------



## hifisponge

Just got news that my order for my replacement Wilson Benesch speakers should be delivered in about 3 weeks, which is 4-6 weeks ahead of schedule. Of course now that I've said that, there will be some unforeseen delay that will push it out 6 weeks.


You'd think that I wouldn't be all that excited to just go back to the speakers I had before I started down this crazy path, but I am. Especially since the Trinity speakers will be new to me.


----------



## hifisponge

This is simply too good to not share with the world:


----------



## williamtassone

ahahhahahahahha


----------



## bamboo5354

Hi hifisponge I am currently looking into the following speakers for my upgrade

Paradigm signature S2 V3

Canton vento reference 9

B&W 805 Diamond

I see that you have owned all these models before can you share your opinions on how they compare to each other? Which one was your favorite?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bamboo5354* /forum/post/19423289
> 
> 
> Hi hifisponge I am currently looking into the following speakers for my upgrade
> 
> Paradigm signature S2 V3
> 
> Canton vento reference 9
> 
> B&W 805 Diamond
> 
> I see that you have owned all these models before can you share your opinions on how they compare to each other? Which one was your favorite?



Hi Bamboo5354 -


First the disclaimer. No speaker is perfect, and when you are dealing with different brands around the same price / quality range, it tends to come down more to personal preference than finding a unanimous "winner".


Here's a list of pros and cons as I experienced them with each of these speakers in my system.


Oh, and I owned the V1 Paradigm Sigs, and have not listened to the new V3. While Paradigm has been consistent in providing a neutral sounding speaker, the V3 uses an aluminum cone and Be tweet, where the V1 used a mineral filled plastic cone and gold plated aluminum tweeter. These changes could shift the sound to something I like more or less.

*Canton Ref 9.2*

Pros:

*Really nice treble. Finely detailed but not bright or zingy, and no excess sibilance.

*Expansive soundstage. These are right up there with the WBs or the Paradigm Sigs I used to own, which were the ones to beat in this area.

*Very good tonal balance. A tad bass heavy, and a bit bright / forward through the mids, but not aggressive.

*"Open" midrange. Good presence on vocals without sounding forced or forward

*Surprisingly full, and extended bass response.


Cons:

*Slightly metallic / granular / reedy sound in the upper mids.

* A bit of chestiness on certain songs through the lower mids. However I was able to reduce this by raising the height of the speakers, so it seems to be at least somewhat room related (though I've not had this problem with any other standmount in this same location).

*Bass is not the tightest I've heard, but not wooly or flabby by any means. This may also be able to be improved with placement.

*B&W 805Di*

Pros:

* Bass is tight, punchy, well-timed, tuneful and just much better than a speaker this size has any right to have.

* The tweeter has remarkable resolution and transient response. Clearly better than the Be tweets in the Focals and the Revels that I've owned. Both of those lacked the sparkle I was after when I bought them. The strike and the decay of things like cymbals, chimes, and bells are more clearly delineated than I've heard before, even when there are other sounds or instruments layered on top.

* Every element of sound is cleanly separate from the others. Each musical element is distinct from the others. The Monitor Audio Platinums had similar resolving power, but their soundstage was compressed.

* Imaging. I've never placed a lot of value on pinpoint imaging. I guess because I've never really had it that good in my room, and I'm more concerned with tonality and the size of the soundstage. While listening to one of my reference tracks, a Dianna Krall song that I listen to for vocal quality, I realized for the first time that she was sitting at the piano to sing, slightly off center to the left and facing to the right. I swear that I could hear her shift from singing directly into the mic in front of her to shifting to face the audience. In other words I could hear her sing diagonally out into the room. That was a first. Up til now, her vocals were just a phantom center image.


Cons:

* Treble can sound overly sharp / edgy. It's not offensive, but I am particularly sensitive to speakers that err in this way and ultimately it was enough to be distracting. That somewhat etched sharp quality to the sound is a constant reminder that I'm listening to a recording through speakers. It can also cause a bit of fatigue in the long term listening. Then again, it did make the sound more "vivid" and exciting. Depends on your perspective.

* Tweeter character sounds faster / sharper than the midrange, resulting in a slight lack of cohesion to the overall presentation.

* Midrange not as natural and "real" sounding as the best I've heard.

*Paradigm Sig V1*

Pros:

* Great all around speakers with no glaring faults. The Paradigms were the end of my first journey down the speaker upgrade path.

* Clean, detailed sound that is slightly forward

* My first taste of big sound from a small speaker. Soundstage is bigger than several of the larger floorstanding speakers that I owned prior to them.

* Metal tweeter is noticeably smoother and more refined than most. Does not sound metallic, edgy, or overly sharp.

* Bass is also very good, and probably comparable to the B&W's in this area.


Cons:

* Could get a bit "shouty" through the mids with some recordings at higher volumes. (This could have been a contribution of the room at the time, as it wasn't acousticaly treated when I owned these.)

* Not as "transparent" through the mids as the best speakers I've heard / owned.

____________________________________________________________ _____


Maybe distance makes the heart grow fonder, but of those three, I would probably go with the Paradigms as my favorite. The other two speakers are better in some areas, but the faults of the Paradigms were easier to overlook, and they still accomplish the goal of achieving a high-fidelity and impressive sound. But again, I don't know how the current V3's fair since the drivers are completely different.


What are your current speakers? What do you like and dislike about them?


----------



## ddgtr

Very nice description.


I've recently auditioned the V3's and was totally impressed. It was at the dealer's, driven by a Mark Levinson amp. I am planning to arrange an audition in my home to see how they stack up against mine, everything else being a constant.


The only one thing I noticed listening to them was that if seated right in the sweet spot, they sounded phenomenal, I got lost in the music and the speakers completely disappeared. When I shifted just about 18" off the center line, then I could clearly place the speakers and while they still sounded good, both the soundstage and imaging were off.


I don't know if this is a result of the way they had that room set up, with all the other stuff in there so that is why I want to hear them in my system. Hopefully they are not too directional...


----------



## Nuz1

Hifisponge--


I've enjoyed following this thread and your quest for the right speakers. I also like your descriptions of the sound. I have B&W floorstanders now and have been comparing Paradigm and B&W locally for a possible upgrade. But living in a smaller market, I have to travel to hear many of the speakers that you mention.


So I was wondering if you have ever heard the Sonus Faber Cremona M or Auditor M's. If so, how would you describe the their sound as compared to the others you mention? I've been reading good things and hope to give the SFs a listen while in Chicago next month. I would also like to find a WB dealer to hear the sound that you like so well.


Thanks for any input you or others can offer.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/19423493
> 
> 
> Very nice description.
> 
> 
> I've recently auditioned the V3's and was totally impressed. It was at the dealer's, driven by a Mark Levinson amp. I am planning to arrange an audition in my home to see how they stack up against mine, everything else being a constant.
> 
> 
> The only one thing I noticed listening to them was that if seated right in the sweet spot, they sounded phenomenal, I got lost in the music and the speakers completely disappeared. When I shifted just about 18" off the center line, then I could clearly place the speakers and while they still sounded good, both the soundstage and imaging were off.
> 
> 
> I don't know if this is a result of the way they had that room set up, with all the other stuff in there so that is why I want to hear them in my system. Hopefully they are not too directional...



I suspect that the room was at play with your experience with the off-axis listening. The Paradigm Studio and Signature speakers have consistently had broad and uniform horizontal dispersion and better generally good vertical dispersion as well.


Check out the 0 to 30 degree off-axis plot of the Sig S1 V2.
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/mea...gnature_s1_v2/ 


Notice how closely the 30 degree measurement tracks the 0 degree measurement. There is virtually no meaningful difference between them.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nuz1* /forum/post/19424457
> 
> 
> Hifisponge--
> 
> 
> I've enjoyed following this thread and your quest for the right speakers. I also like your descriptions of the sound.



Glad to be of service.











> Quote:
> So I was wondering if you have ever heard the Sonus Faber Cremona M or Auditor M's. If so, how would you describe the their sound as compared to the others you mention? I've been reading good things and hope to give the SFs a listen while in Chicago next month. I would also like to find a WB dealer to hear the sound that you like so well.



I have listened to the Auditor M, at the dealer. I wish I could be more descriptive in my impressions of this speaker, but there wasn't much that really stood out about it. This is a good thing in some respects because at least it was well behaved, but on the other hand it was also unremarkable. One thing that I did find disappointing was that it doesn't seem to be one of those small speakers that hits above its weight class. It had no real bass to speak of. It didn't sound bright or lean, there was just no foundation. But then, I don't like making commitments to impressions made at the dealer because it is a foreign environment that adds a variable that is not there when I audition at home. And the one thing that is most affected by room and positioning is the bass more than anything else.


----------



## Nuz1

Thanks for your thoughts. Based on what I've been reading, I was hoping they would have made more of an impression than that. I should be able to compare the B&W diamonds and the SF in the same shop. But now I'm even more curious about the WB line.


----------



## bamboo5354

hifisponge thanks for your quick and detailed reply I currently own the older definitive mythos speakers. Bought them based on their looks(stupid I know I was a noob







) They sound pretty good but I found them sound a bit too metallic. I like an organic life like sound, I also like speakers that can cast a big sound stage and transfer my room into a cinema. Since my system is mostly use for movies watching and gaming I am also looking for speakers that can evoke excitement when watching a movie and playing a game. Bass is not a important factor for me because I think that's the job for a subwoofer. Based on the things that I am looking for do you have any recommendation for me?

Me and my friend is going to audition the paradigm and B&W this Saturday


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nuz1* /forum/post/19426276
> 
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts. Based on what I've been reading, I was hoping they would have made more of an impression than that. I should be able to compare the B&W diamonds and the SF in the same shop. But now I'm even more curious about the WB line.



Yeah, I was hoping that the SF Auditor M's would have wowed me too. I think everyone has to find their own way though, and it is quite possible that you will find them to be fantastic. It won't be the first time two people have disagreed about the sound of a set of speakers.







For that matter, you may listen to the WBs and think I'm completely off my rocker for liking them as much as I do. Not likely, but still possible.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bamboo5354* /forum/post/19426309
> 
> 
> hifisponge thanks for your quick and detailed reply I currently own the older definitive mythos speakers. Bought them based on their looks(stupid I know I was a noob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) They sound pretty good but I found them sound a bit too metallic. I like an organic life like sound, I also like speakers that can cast a big sound stage and transfer my room into a cinema. Since my system is mostly use for movies watching and gaming I am also looking for speakers that can evoke excitement when watching a movie and playing a game. Bass is not a important factor for me because I think that's the job for a subwoofer. Based on the things that I am looking for do you have any recommendation for me?
> 
> Me and my friend is going to audition the paradigm and B&W this Saturday



No worries. I've purchased more than a couple sets of speakers based on their looks, or at least the cabinet design was a key part of the decision. In fact I still do. There are plenty of good sounding but fugly speakers out there.







The real trick is finding a set that sounds as good as they look.


In my experience it is hard to get an organic sound from metal drivers. There are a few out there, like the Audio Physic line. But most metal drivers tend to sound crisp / clean / clinical, many bordering on too sharp / etched. If you were doing a music only system, I'd suggest going with a tube based front end if you want to get anything approaching organic from most metal drivered speakers.


In fact, I'd say it is pretty tough to line up all that you've described in one speaker. Organic and life-like aka musical can often sound too polite for movies / games, while dramatic and showy speakers can be fatiguing on music. The Paradigms and the B&Ws are two that ride the fine line though, so those are a good place to start.


The Dali Helicon speakers are another to consider, or possibly PMC. The Dalis are in my top 10 favorite speakers. They are slightly lush / warm sounding, but that ribbon tweeter conveys probably the best treble detail I've ever heard. I would have owned a set by now if they offered them in a wider variety of finishes. The PMCs, if you don't mind the conventional boxy aesthetics, are supposed to be some of the more dynamic yet still organic speakers out there. I've only listened to the entry level PMCs, but a friend of mine was torn between the OB1i and the Wilson Benesch. He felt the PMCs had the upper hand on dynamics, while the WB's were more natural sounding.


Oh, and check out the Linn Akurate speakers if you can.


In the end, all you can really do is visit all of the speaker stores in your area and listen to every speaker in your budget. You'll know when you hear the one that is right for you. Just be sure to bring a collection of your own music / movies so you have a reference point to start with, and be cautious when judging the bass quality at the dealer. Below 300Hz, the room and the speaker act as one. The room size and dimensions, and the speaker positioning can make or break a speaker. If you think the speaker has potential, but the bass is not quite right, request to move the speakers (to another room if necessary) or better yet, get an in-home audition before committing, or buy from a store with a liberal return policy.


----------



## ddgtr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19425444
> 
> 
> I suspect that the room was at play with your experience with the off-axis listening. The Paradigm Studio and Signature speakers have consistently had broad and uniform horizontal dispersion and better generally good vertical dispersion as well.
> 
> 
> Check out the 0 to 30 degree off-axis plot of the Sig S1 V2.
> http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/mea...gnature_s1_v2/
> 
> 
> Notice how closely the 30 degree measurement tracks the 0 degree measurement. There is virtually no meaningful difference between them.




Thanks Tim, I suspected as much. Although the room was nicely treated, they had a lot of speakers lined up for demos up front. That is why I made arrangements to listen to them in my home.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/19427796
> 
> 
> Thanks Tim, I suspected as much. Although the room was nicely treated, they had a lot of speakers lined up for demos up front. That is why I made arrangements to listen to them in my home.



Always the best if your dealer is accommodating. Sadly, fewer and fewer are in my area.


Good luck and report back on how it goes. Or give me a link if you post elsewhere.


----------



## cavchameleon

hifisponge,


I always like reading your threads - lots of fun info (usually can't share much since your toys are above my price range). Anyway, thought I would show you another option of active speakers that look pretty good and have incredible specs. Have you looked at these before?

http://www.legendspeakers.com.au/tikandi.html 


Just a thought...


Ray


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *cavchameleon* 
hifisponge,


I always like reading your threads - lots of fun info (usually can't share much since your toys are above my price range). Anyway, thought I would show you another option of active speakers that look pretty good and have incredible specs. Have you looked at these before?

http://www.legendspeakers.com.au/tikandi.html 


Just a thought...


Ray
Hey Ray -


Nice to meetcha, and glad you like my little slice of AVS.











I've known about Legend speakers for a bit, but had written them off because they used to only make the active speakers for 2CH. But now it seems that they make a center and monitors as well. Hmmm.....


My Wilson Benesch speakers are already on their way to me, so there is no backing out now, but I will keep Legend in mind for when I get my next wild hair for a speaker change.










Oh, and even though I like relatively expensive toys, I'm still well grounded. You are always welcome to share your thoughts on more reasonably priced gear.


----------



## cavchameleon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19432737
> 
> 
> Hey Ray -
> 
> 
> Nice to meetcha, and glad you like my little slice of AVS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've known about Legend speakers for a bit, but had written them off because they used to only make the active speakers for 2CH. But now it seems that they make a center and monitors as well. Hmmm.....
> 
> 
> My Wilson Benesch speakers are already on their way to me, so there is no backing out now, but I will keep Legend in mind for when I get my next wild hair for a speaker change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and even though I like relatively expensive toys, I'm still well grounded. You are always welcome to share your thoughts on more reasonably priced gear.



Didn't you already some time in the past already go with Wilson Benesch (if I remember correctly)? Pretty radical design with one of the woofers exposed. Wish there were someone in my area with them, always like to hear different designs.


It'll be nice to hear your impressions on them. I really liked your thread on your 'search for the perfect speaker...'


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavchameleon* /forum/post/19434274
> 
> 
> Wish there were someone in my area with them, always like to hear different designs.



Pretty slim pickings in NM...


----------



## cavchameleon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/19434350
> 
> 
> Pretty slim pickings in NM...



Yep, not too many dealers here (B&W, Paradigm, and a few others plus all the 'standard' brands like Polk, etc- we did have Meridian and some others, but no longer, not enough of a market here as you know). Pretty much need to order most items on line...


----------



## vantagesc

I hear ya on the space thing Tim. My room could use another love seat or a few chairs, but there is no space due to the location of my listening position and the speakers.


To some extent, I envy those with Triad In-walls.







No mess.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavchameleon* /forum/post/19434274
> 
> 
> Didn't you already some time in the past already go with Wilson Benesch (if I remember correctly)? Pretty radical design with one of the woofers exposed. Wish there were someone in my area with them, always like to hear different designs.
> 
> 
> It'll be nice to hear your impressions on them. I really liked your thread on your 'search for the perfect speaker...'



Yes, I'm throwing in the towel, so to speak, and going back to Wilson Benesch after being dissatisfied with everything else I've tried since. However, I'm taking one last risk by going with a more conventional looking (by WB standards anyway) speaker in place of the "Discovery" (the standmount monitor with the exposed woofer hanging out the bottom).


I'm going with the WB Trinity instead.


These:



















http://wilson-benesch.com/2010/07/trinity/


----------



## cavchameleon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19436924
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm throwing in the towel, so to speak, and going back to Wilson Benesch after being dissatisfied with everything else I've tried since. However, I'm taking one last risk by going with a more conventional looking (by WB standards anyway) speaker in place of the "Discovery" (the standmount monitor with the exposed woofer hanging out the bottom).
> 
> 
> I'm going with the WB Trinity instead.
> 
> 
> These:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://wilson-benesch.com/2010/07/trinity/



Those are way gorgeously cool! I like the carbon fiber look and the integrated stands! What sub are you going to mate with them?


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19436924
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm throwing in the towel, so to speak, and going back to Wilson Benesch



yes nice speakers. Are they the same model WB's you had before?


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19343589
> 
> 
> the JL does have an auto-on function, but I never use it because I've found these types of functions to be inconsistent as to when they trigger on, and because they do things like cause thumps when then power up. I don't know how energy inefficient it is to leave the sub on all the time, but that's how I roll



so is your JL sub amp noticeably warm (when left in ON mode)? I can sort of smell mine in the living room when the outside ambient temp is warm (like today- 101 degrees in L.A. area today), and it feels physically warm on the rear heat sinks. I guess this is okay?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavchameleon* /forum/post/19437375
> 
> 
> Those are way gorgeously cool! I like the carbon fiber look and the integrated stands! What sub are you going to mate with them?



Good word combination. Yes, gorgeously cool sums it up nicely.







My sub is a JL Audio F112. I love this sub. It is the best of both worlds. Tight and articulate on music and punch you in the chest visceral with movies. And it is relatively small. Highly recommended.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19438502
> 
> 
> yes nice speakers. Are they the same model WB's you had before?



Of course I'm biased, but I can't say that I like the look of any speaker brand more than WB. They are both elegant and hi-tech. Like having a fine european sports car parked in your living room. What more could a guy ask for? Oh yeah, that they sound as good as they look.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19438516
> 
> 
> so is your JL sub amp noticeably warm (when left in ON mode)? I can sort of smell mine in the living room when the outside ambient temp is warm (like today- 101 degrees in L.A. area today), and it feels physically warm on the rear heat sinks. I guess this is okay?



I have mine in the permanently ON setting, and I just walked over to put my hand on the heat sinks and they are room temp, which is around 69 degrees. Did you buy it locally? Can you go to the local dealer and compare temps?


----------



## Raymond Leggs

I'm jealous now... I cant even affored Klipsch Ikons, which is what I want,







I think I'll try the New pioneers The Sony SS440's stay no matter what!


I'm replacing my components too, I might go with some more vintage silver source components I already have some realistic and KLH stuff I have aquired...


How do the Monitor Audio Radius's compare to the B&W diamonds?


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Raymond Leggs* 
I'm jealous now... I cant even affored Klipsch Ikons, which is what I want,







I think I'll try the New pioneers The Sony SS440's stay no matter what!


I'm replacing my components too, I might go with some more vintage silver source components I already have some realistic and KLH stuff I have aquired...


How do the Monitor Audio Radius's compare to the B&W diamonds?
Hi Raymond -


You're still sticking with those Sony's eh? I'm come across a some of your posts from a few years back and I believe you were pretty happy with them.


Best Buy sells the Klipsch Icons and if you spend $899 on a HT / speaker package, you can put them on a 3 year no interest plan.


----------



## weird 23

What's going on HiFi? I pretty sure I figured out the problem with my Pioneer SC-07-Anthem MCA 50 combo we were discussing awhile ago, I don't think the Pioneer outputs enough voltage to drive the Anthem to full power. I tried hooking up the Anthem to my Marantz IA and suddenly the Anthem delivered everything that I was looking for. The Marantz voltage output exceeds the Anthem's requirements and they sound great together. I've decided to sell both the Pioneer and the Anthem, it's time to move on to something that works well together. I haven't been really impressed with Pioneer's MCACC room correction either. I've been looking at either one of the Anthem receivers or the Denon 4311, which room correction would you think is the better choice XT32 or ARC? The one feature that kind of puts the Denon 4311 in the lead at this point is the dual HDMI outputs as I would like to install a PJ sometime in 2011. Does splitting the HDMI degrade the signal? Are you going to hang on to your Denon for awhile? I love the look of your new speakers, I'm sure that you can't wait to have surround again. I picked up the Alien Anthology this week and the PQ of Alien is fantastic, I'll try and watch the second movie this weekend. The soundtrack is typical of a movie from this era but it still sounds better than the original. Any luck selling the Virgo's?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19441914
> 
> 
> What's going on HiFi? I pretty sure I figured out the problem with my Pioneer SC-07-Anthem MCA 50 combo we were discussing awhile ago, I don't think the Pioneer outputs enough voltage to drive the Anthem to full power. I tried hooking up the Anthem to my Marantz IA and suddenly the Anthem delivered everything that I was looking for. The Marantz voltage output exceeds the Anthem's requirements and they sound great together.



Hey weirdo. I couldn't resist.










Interesting. I've very occasionally heard of others running into that sort of problem, but I never have. Most likely because I always buy the matching amp and prepro from the same company. I bet that was a hard puzzle to solve though. So many variables to deal with in this hobby that it is easy to get tripped up. I still make some rookie mistakes when I swap out gear, not that yours was.



> Quote:
> I've decided to sell both the Pioneer and the Anthem, it's time to move on to something that works well together. I haven't been really impressed with Pioneer's MCACC room correction either. I've been looking at either one of the Anthem receivers or the Denon 4311, which room correction would you think is the better choice XT32 or ARC?



I would go with ARC if you like to have control over the outcome. I do. While Audyssey can do great things, it is a bit more of a crap-shoot. And if you don't like the results, there is little you can do about it, other than trying to take the measurements in different spots with the hopes of something better. This is excluding Audyssey Pro of course, but the 4311 doesn't have that option.



> Quote:
> The one feature that kind of puts the Denon 4311 in the lead at this point is the dual HDMI outputs as I would like to install a PJ sometime in 2011. Does splitting the HDMI degrade the signal?



Can't say, I have no expertise here. Since the HDMI signal is digital, I would think that the splitter would either work, or fail in an obvious way, like no picture, or a snowy picture.



> Quote:
> Are you going to hang on to your Denon for awhile?



Only until Lexicon comes out with their new processor. I caught wind that they are planning to release a new one possibly early next year. I loved the Lexicon MC12HD that I used to own. The only reason I parted with it was because I had some screechy speakers that I was trying to tame.


Too bad our timing isn't better, or I'd offer to sell you my AVR5308 for a good price.



> Quote:
> I love the look of your new speakers, I'm sure that you can't wait to have surround again.



Yes, indeed. I have been suffering with 2CH movie watching for too long. However, there was a mix up on the payment of my order for the WBs, so shipment was delayed a week. May not seem like much, but from my perspective it is one week more on top of an 8 month search for the right speakers, so every little delay is that much more painful.



> Quote:
> I picked up the Alien Anthology this week and the PQ of Alien is fantastic, I'll try and watch the second movie this weekend. The soundtrack is typical of a movie from this era but it still sounds better than the original. Any luck selling the Virgo's?



I loved the first two movies, but I don't know if I would want the entire set. I'll probably buy them anyway though.


----------



## weird 23

When I bought the amp I just figured that my Paradigm's are developed and tested using Anthem amplification so it would be a good match. The thought never entered my mind that it wouldn't match up with my receiver well, until I did lots of reading and testing after the fact. So I would chalk that up to a rookie mistake myself, either that or being too cheap at the moment to buy an Anthem processor. There's a couple of things that have surfaced about the Anthem receivers that are kind of pushing me towards the Denon.

1. RS-232 serial input for using ARC and updates ( which is supposed to be a nightmare)

2. No HDMI pass through, it would be nice not to have to turn everything on for the kids to watch tv.

3. Lack of 2nd HDMI output

4. Only one subwoofer pre-out. I plan on adding a second sub and having a second pre out seems better than splitting the signal.

Do you think any of the concern's I have are unwarranted and I'm just being too picky? I would like whatever I choose to last for a few years so that I can focus on other parts of my system which need to be improved.


Thanks,

Weirdo


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19445905
> 
> 
> When I bought the amp I just figured that my Paradigm's are developed and tested using Anthem amplification so it would be a good match. The thought never entered my mind that it wouldn't match up with my receiver well, until I did lots of reading and testing after the fact. So I would chalk that up to a rookie mistake myself, either that or being too cheap at the moment to buy an Anthem processor. There's a couple of things that have surfaced about the Anthem receivers that are kind of pushing me towards the Denon.
> 
> 1. RS-232 serial input for using ARC and updates ( which is supposed to be a nightmare)
> 
> 2. No HDMI pass through, it would be nice not to have to turn everything on for the kids to watch tv.
> 
> 3. Lack of 2nd HDMI output
> 
> 4. Only one subwoofer pre-out. I plan on adding a second sub and having a second pre out seems better than splitting the signal.
> 
> Do you think any of the concern's I have are unwarranted and I'm just being too picky? I would like whatever I choose to last for a few years so that I can focus on other parts of my system which need to be improved.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Weirdo



I don't think you're being picky. It is your system and it should meet your needs whatever they may be. Convenience of use is certainly an important part of having a system you will enjoy using. Denon makes consistently good products, stable products too. I could very well see the Anthem's being less tested and more buggy.


In terms of sound innate quality, I found Denon and Anthem to be in the same league, and I actually liked the Denon a bit better. I found the Anthem a little sharp / bright. Just my personal preference on that one. On the flip-side, I like the level of control ARC provides. But then there is a decent chance that Audyessy will give you good results with less fuss. I can give you some pointers on getting the best results from Audyssey when doing the set-up.


----------



## sdurani




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19443130
> 
> 
> This is excluding Audyssey Pro of course, but the 4311 doesn't have that option.



The 4311 juuuust got the key last week, with the new version (3.4) of Audyssey Pro. The cool thing about the new Denon is that it includes MultEQxt32 and SubEQ HT. The former uses 32 times the resolution of MultEQxt while the latter makes effective use of dual subs (calibrates levels and distances for each sub separately but equalizes the interaction for both subs together). And this is without Audyssey Pro, which will give you some control over the results.


----------



## Mike_WI




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sdurani* /forum/post/19453403
> 
> 
> The 4311 juuuust got the key last week, with the new version (3.4) of Audyssey Pro. The cool thing about the new Denon is that it includes MultEQxt32 and SubEQ HT. The former uses 32 times the resolution of MultEQxt while the latter makes effective use of dual subs (calibrates levels and distances for each sub separately but equalizes the interaction for both subs together). And this is without Audyssey Pro, which will give you some control over the results.



Can you remind me/us what the new version (3.4) of Audyssey Pro let's you do?

Have you used it?


Thanks.


Mike

**EDIT**

From Installers site:


> Quote:
> *Posted on November 5, 2010*
> 
> By Audyssey Laboratories
> 
> Installers. The new MultEQ Pro, version 3.4 is available for download. The update is required for the following new AVRs:
> 
> 
> Denon AVR 4311CI, AVR A100
> 
> Marantz AV7005, SR7005
> 
> Integra DTR 70.2, DTR 80.2, DHC 80.2
> 
> Onkyo PR-SC5508
> 
> 
> This is a big list and we are happy to include Marantz to the Pro lineup for the first time.
> 
> The update is free to all MultEQ Pro 3.0 owners.
> 
> Just click on the downloads link at left to get the update and release notes.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sdurani* /forum/post/19453403
> 
> 
> The 4311 juuuust got the key last week, with the new version (3.4) of Audyssey Pro. The cool thing about the new Denon is that it includes MultEQxt32 and SubEQ HT. The former uses 32 times the resolution of MultEQxt while the latter makes effective use of dual subs (*calibrates levels and distances for each sub separately but equalizes the interaction for both subs together*). And this is without Audyssey Pro, which will give you some control over the results.



This is cool. Good to see that Audyssey are still moving forward with improvements to their tech. There approach to dual sub integration should be especially helpful. The benefits of using dual subs is widely spread, but I get the sense that many don't really have the know-how or the tools to do the job right.


----------



## sdurani

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Mike_WI* 
Have you used it?
I don't have an Audyssey equiped pre-pro, but I did help a friend run Audyssey (not Pro) on his Denon 4311. Let me tell you, the calibration routine is much faster than it used to be! The subwoofers were placed stradling the listening area (midpoints of front and back wall), as suggested by the Harman white paper on subwoofer placement. Results were a definite improvement; very pleasing sound. BTW, lots of talk about Audyssey Pro in the monster Audyssey thread and the Denon 4311 thread.


----------



## Nuz1




hifisponge said:


> Yes, I'm throwing in the towel, so to speak, and going back to Wilson Benesch after being dissatisfied with everything else I've tried since. However, I'm taking one last risk by going with a more conventional looking (by WB standards anyway) speaker in place of the "Discovery" (the standmount monitor with the exposed woofer hanging out the bottom).
> 
> 
> I'm going with the WB Trinity instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hifi--
> 
> 
> Maybe I missed it in a previous post but curious why you went with the Trinity over the Discovery if you were happy with them before? Did you like the sound better? Or just trying the latest and greatest?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Hifi--
> 
> 
> Maybe I missed it in a previous post but curious why you went with the Trinity over the Discovery if you were happy with them before? Did you like the sound better? Or just trying the latest and greatest?



After some research and further consideration, I felt the Trinity would be the potentially better speaker for my needs.


My rationale:

The Discovery is a 2.5 way speaker, so the midrange driver is run full range. This means the two isobaric bass drivers in the Discovery will provide greater bass extension, but the overall power handling is limited to what the mid/woof is capable of.

I always use a sub for both music and movies, so I really don't need the bass extension of the Discovery. If you are looking for a standmount that provides close to full range on its own, the Discovery would probably be a better option.

The Trinity uses an updated version of the Tactic mid/woof driver in the Discovery called the WB One driver. It has a beefier motor structure which gives it slightly higher output, and potentially better dynamics within its range.

The Trinity has a more sophisticated driver mounting system in which the driver frames are clamped between two metal plates and the rear of the midrange driver is attached to the rear of the cabinet. This should give the drivers a firmer foundation to work with and potentially improve resolution / reduce smearing.


The wild card is the super tweeter in the Trinity. I've owned speakers with super tweeters before, and I can't say that I've heard much if any contribution to the sound from them. I listen mainly to CD quality audio, which has a brick wall filter above 22KHz, so the super tweeter may lie dormant most of the time, but I am curious to see if I can detect anything on some of my hi-rez tracks. If there is anything to be heard / felt by the contribution of a super tweeter, I figure that the Murata breathing diaphragm is tech to do it. No loss if it doesn't.


----------



## Nuz1

Thanks. I'll be anxious to hear what you think once you've got them out of the boxes and have a chance to break them in.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nuz1* /forum/post/19465432
> 
> 
> Thanks. I'll be anxious to hear what you think once you've got them out of the boxes and have a chance to break them in.



Me too. I didn't go through any break-in grief with the WBs the last time, but who knows with the Trinity. That beefed-up midrange driver could be a little stiff out the box.


----------



## rob80b




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19436924
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm throwing in the towel, so to speak, and going back to Wilson Benesch after being dissatisfied with everything else I've tried since. However, I'm taking one last risk by going with a more conventional looking (by WB standards anyway) speaker in place of the "Discovery" (the standmount monitor with the exposed woofer hanging out the bottom).
> 
> 
> I'm going with the WB Trinity instead.



Hi Tim


Did a little research and I'm intrigued by Wilson-Benesch and the employment of the super tweeter in the Trinitys, an interesting departure from the C1s, looking forward to your observations once you've got them and they've had a chance to settle in.


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *rob80b* 
Hi Tim


Did a little research and I'm intrigued by Wilson-Benesch and the employment of the super tweeter in the Trinitys, an interesting departure from the C1s, looking forward to your observations once you’ve got them and they’ve had a chance to settle in.
Or maybe the Dynaudio C1's were an interesting departure from Wilson Benesch?










Just keep an eye on this thread and you're sure to hear all that I have to say about my time with the Trinity.


----------



## Brian-HD

Tim,


I am planning on comparing the B & W 805d and Dyn C1. Your impression would be helpful



Brian


----------



## hifisponge

I've been studying acoustics and EQ over the past few years, and made this post on the subject of measured vs. perceived tonal balance in another thread. I just wanted to post it here too for posterity. There is some very insightful information in links below.

____________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________


According to some trusted sources, a gradual elevation in bass level (aka "house curve") is needed to provide a sound that is perceived to be balanced. My personal experience is that this holds true with my own measured in-room FR vs. perceived tonal balance.


In Sean Olive's "The Subjective and Objective Evaluation of Room Correction Products", he found this:










And this:










Full test results here:
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...ZTUxMGQ4&hl=en 


Similarly, on page 25 of the JBL Synthesis EQ manual they talk about the need for LF boost in the target because it is accounted for in during the recording process:

_"Room boundaries (walls, ceiling and floor) tend to contain low-frequency energy within the room. Simply stated, this results in a boost in low-frequency energy. This is true whether it is a speaker or a piano producing the sound. The exact frequency at which this effect begins and the amount of boost realized are a function of the room size, shape and wall construction. No two spaces are ever exactly alike. This same low-frequency enhancement also occurs in recording studios, and the recording engineers know this will occur during playback. They balance their recordings in anticipation of this. *Therefore, it would be wrong to “flatten” the speaker system response in the playback environment. To do so only results in a thin bass sound.*


By surveying many listening rooms over the years, JBL engineers have established a low-frequency response characteristic that delivers the most consistently satisfactory results. This has been confirmed through extensive subjective evaluation tests."_


This is the target they are referring to:









_"The Synthesis target curves are derived from data collected in many typical installations. They represent a trend of what should be expected, not a specific shape that must be achieved for good sound."_


Audyssey uses a target curve that is supposedly flat from 4KHz down to 20Hz, but either my Denon is malfunctioning, or Audyssey may have changed their target because my measurements of the in-room FR of my system with Audyssey EQ engaged looks a lot like the JBL target, as do the in-room FR measurements posted by several others using Audyssey over on Hometheatershack.com.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Brian-HD* /forum/post/19485299
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> I am planning on comparing the B & W 805d and Dyn C1. Your impression would be helpful
> 
> 
> 
> Brian



First the disclaimer. No speaker is perfect, and when you are dealing with different brands around the same price / quality range, it tends to come down more to personal preference than finding a unanimous "winner".


Here's a list of pros and cons as I experienced them with each of these speakers in my system.

*B&W 805Di*

Pros:

* Bass is tight, punchy, well-timed, tuneful and better than you would expect from a speaker this size (Dyn C1 is better still).

* The tweeter has remarkable resolution and transient response. Clearly better than the Be tweets in the Focals and the Revels that I've owned. Both of those lacked the sparkle I was after when I bought them. The strike and the decay of things like cymbals, chimes, and bells are more clearly delineated than I've heard before, even when there are other sounds or instruments layered on top.

* Every element of sound is cleanly separate from the others. Each musical element is distinct from the others.

* Imaging. I've never placed a lot of value on pinpoint imaging. I guess because I've never really had it that good in my room, and I'm more concerned with tonality and the size of the soundstage. While listening to one of my reference tracks, a Dianna Krall song that I listen to for vocal quality, I realized for the first time that she was sitting at the piano to sing, slightly off center to the left and facing to the right. I swear that I could hear her shift from singing directly into the mic in front of her to shifting to face the audience. In other words I could hear her sing diagonally out into the room. That was a first. Up til now, her vocals were just a phantom center image.


Cons:

* Treble can sound overly sharp / edgy. It's not overtly offensive, but I am particularly sensitive to speakers that err in this way and ultimately it was enough to be distracting. That somewhat etched sharp quality to the sound is a constant reminder that I'm listening to a recording through speakers. It can also cause a bit of fatigue in the long term listening. Then again, it did make the sound more "vivid" and exciting. Depends on your perspective.

* Tweeter character sounds faster / sharper than the midrange, resulting in a slight lack of cohesion to the overall presentation.

* Midrange not as natural and "real" sounding as the best I've heard.


*Dynaudio C1*

Pros:

* Just about as tonally neutral as I've ever heard through the midrange

* The bass is the deepest I've heard from a standmount speaker in my room and very articulate as well.

* Delicate, sweet, treble that is perfectly integrated with the mids


Cons:

* Soundstage is mostly between the speakers. I felt like I was listening "at" the music.

* They just didn't move me to want to listen, even at high volumes. I can't put my finger on the cause, other than possibly a lack of dynamic contrast / snap? It could be argued that my use of a Denon AVR5308 was the cause here, and it may be that the Dyns need more than the 270WPC / 4 Ohms the Denon is capable of, but according to the Dyn spec sheet they top out at 170WPC / 4 Ohms.


----------



## hifisponge

I get asked often enough how one can measure the performance of their sound system in their room, that I'm posting the laundry list here for future use.


Below is everything you need to get up and running with Room EQ Wizard. Keep in mind, this is not a plug and play program and it will take some effort and time to learn how to use it. If you want plug-n-play, buy the "XTZ Room Analyzer". http://www.xtz.se/uk/products/mearur.../room-analyzer 


1. Download Room EQ Wizard for free.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/ 


2. Buy this calibrated microphone (Basic + is fine):

http://cross-spectrum.com/measuremen...behringer.html 


3. Buy this microphone preamp (this will also serve as your sound card while in use):

http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Mobile.../dp/B0000TP57E 


4. Get a mic stand, with a telescoping arm, like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Stage-Spotligh...7372345&sr=1-1 


5. Buy a 30 - 50 foot XLR mic cable:

http://www.amazon.com/NADY-XC-50-XLR...7372458&sr=1-5 


6. Get an RCA to 1/4 inch phono cable (this one is used to send the test signal to your sound system):

http://www.amazon.com/HOSA-CPR204-Du...7372678&sr=1-6 


Total investment: around $250 for very competent sound analysis tool. The Room EQ Wizard software is phenomenal, and there is a large support group on http://www.hometheatershack.com/ 


To buy the XTZ Room Analyzer, you need to order it directly from XTZ in Sweden by following these directions:


International orders

You can order by sending an email to: [email protected] 

Please state your:

name

address

country

phone number

and the products you wish to purchase

They will email you the total cost (including shipping) and explain how payment is made.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19492917
> 
> 
> how one can measure the performance of their sound system in their room



this is very cool Tim, thanks for posting all the details. I want to put together a test system.


Also still learning best method for re-calibrating/EQ'ing my system. Of course my NAD T175 uses Audyssey. But I get confused on implementing a starting-point- ie. proper initial SPL level setting. Should I (using an SPL meter) choose a satisfying average listening level first (playing back test tones)?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19500690
> 
> 
> this is very cool Tim, thanks for posting all the details. I want to put together a test system.
> 
> 
> Also still learning best method for re-calibrating/EQ'ing my system. Of course my NAD T175 uses Audyssey. But I get confused on implementing a starting-point- ie. proper initial SPL level setting. Should I (using an SPL meter) choose a satisfying average listening level first (playing back test tones)?



Hi WCD -


If you are referring to Audyssey set-up, you do not need to adjust the main volume at all. The Audyssey test tones are emitted at a set level, the main volume has no effect on them.


If you are referring to making independent measurements using something like REW, then yes, you need to set the output on your prepro so that you measure (with an SPL meter) 75 dB at the position of the measurement mic.


If you get all the gear that I outlined above, I will help walk you through the process of set-up and measuring. I only ask that we handle it over the phone. E-mails and forum posts are too time consuming.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/19016851
> 
> 
> Thanks for the update! The theoretical benefits of active are, among other things: 1) less non-linear distortion, 2) direct control over the drivers by the amp, 3) less driver impedance reaction. The hard part about evaluating active is that I do not have any apples to apples data. That is, it is rare to hear the same exact speaker with a well-implemented passive crossover compared to a well-implemented active crossover. However, I have heard some very ordinary speakers with actives and some very expensive, and I suspect that there is a benefit, especially with bass.
> 
> 
> I suspect active has not taken off in hifi because the fear of complexity, the amount of additional circuitry that could "degrade" the sound in the mind of audiophiles, and the number of amps needed per speaker.
> 
> 
> My own speakers have a crossover topology that is complicated enough that trying to implement the same thing passively may not work well. Also, their sound is attributable to many characteristics, not just the active crossover. I will say that they are remarkable in their ability to not sound harsh without overly softening the sound, despite the signal passing through several op-amps and using inexpensive electronics.



Hey VSC -


I just realized that I'm actually going to get somewhat of an active speaker experience with the WB Trinity since there is no crossover at all on the mid/woof driver. The mid/woof is essentially connected right to the amp.


You've been pushing me to go active for a while now, and this is probably as close as I will get for the foreseeable future. Funny how things work out.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19506790
> 
> 
> Hey VSC -
> 
> 
> I just realized that I'm actually going to get somewhat of an active speaker experience with the WB Trinity since there is no crossover at all on the mid/woof driver. The mid/woof is essentially connected right to the amp.
> 
> 
> You've been pushing me to go active for a while now, and this is probably as close as I will get for the foreseeable future. Funny how things work out.



Interesting. So do you have to bi-amp it, one directly to mid/woof driver and the other into the tweeter (which then would have passive crossover to super tweeter)?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19508682
> 
> 
> Interesting. So do you have to bi-amp it, one directly to mid/woof driver and the other into the tweeter (which then would have passive crossover to super tweeter)?



I don't think biamp is needed, though I could be wrong. I was planning to connect the speaker cables to the bottom terminals of the speaker (the mid/woof), and use the jumpers from those to the passively crossed tweeter. So the amp won't have direct control over the the tweeter, but the way WB described it, the mid/woof is still being powered by the amp directly.


I don't believe that there is a crossover to the super tweeter from the tweeter.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19509006
> 
> 
> I don't think biamp is needed, though I could be wrong. I was planning to connect the speaker cables to the bottom terminals of the speaker (the mid/woof), and use the jumpers from those to the passively crossed tweeter. So the amp won't have direct control over the the tweeter, but the way WB described it, the mid/woof is still being powered by the amp directly.
> 
> 
> I don't believe that there is a crossover to the super tweeter from the tweeter.



I see. I don't know if I fully understand how that works but sounds like some impressive tech crammed into the WB Trinities.


Unrelated but have you ever had the opportunity to hear the Torus subwoofer. Interesting design concept.


----------



## dynfan

After reading through the entire thread I feel compelled to share some opinions and offerings...


I think many of us have the same issue or desire to explore what is out there and that next great option. I for one could easily get hooked with upgrading speakers or other components on a regular basis. I do find it peculiar that you seem to mainly go through speakers however I can see where it provides the largest difference audibly and the appeal of switching them out.


I am in a similar position in that I want my multichannel rig/theater room to be a stereo listening haven first and multichannel second. I fully agree that if your system performs well with music it will handle movies with aplomb. That said my approach to achieving the same goal is somewhat different and I thought I would share in case it hadn't crossed your mind. I am using an equipment rack with all of my multichannel gear inside of it and initially thought to integrate the two channel components there. Run a dedicated 2 channel processor and/or integrated through the pre-pro and bypass it for HT use. I even tried this to an extent and decided to go a different route. I am going to be using a high quality integrated or a processor and amp combo, located in the front of the room between the speakers. I will use a cabinet that hides the components for the most part so as to not detract from the HT feel. That said I will essentially have two separate systems using the same speakers.


The appeal to this setup is that you can use less expensive gear for the theater/movie side of things and still achieve perfectly acceptable if not amazing results for movies, and devote the saved $ to better stereo components. For example in your case you could easily get away with your receiver for movie's/TV and possibly even downgrade to save $ and allocate the saved finds to the stereo components. Anyway this is how I plan to achieve a room that does everything well.... If you have interest I will be more than happy to share the results.


Another thought I had while reading through your thread was money. With what you have invested and suffered a loss on with your different setups have you considered building a better room? I don't pretend to know your housing situation and whether or not an addition or remodel is feasible (given the lot size, building and zoning restrictions, and the dwelling itself) but I would certainly consider a better listening environment through a different room.


Even with professional treatment I firmly believe you are making a large sacrifice with your current room. A more idealized room with your current gear would likely yield huge improvements and perhaps open up new sonic frontiers for you to explore and you would no longer have to "give up" anything because of room limitations. I say this because I know if I was devoting the kind of money that you are to this hobby, I certainly would not be willing to accept anything less than an ideal room. And let's face it if it was physically possible to do this I think you have already funded the addition and then some







Additionally it would be a better investment in that it certainly couldn't hurt resale value despite the housing market.


Anyway I have enjoyed reading about your journey through hi-fi land and will continue to read and learn as well as share when relevant.


Cheers!


----------



## WestCoastD

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
If you are referring to Audyssey set-up, you do not need to adjust the main volume at all. The Audyssey test tones are emitted at a set level, the main volume has no effect on them
I see, I need to read more on Audyssey set-up (on the Audyssey thread). I'm trying to better understand EQ'ing/calibration in general. I'm not sure I'm implementing the proper approach on my system, although it sounds good. Just need to more properly "balance" things, I'm feeling like my JL F110 may be too heavy, etc.,...I want to start from beginning and re-calibrate everything again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
If you get all the gear that I outlined above, I will help walk you through the process of set-up and measuring. I only ask that we handle it over the phone. E-mails and forum posts are too time consuming
I definitely plan to aquire all the required gear for the diagnostic test set. I will e-mail you and we can talk "live". Thanks


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *chjo100* 
I see. I don't know if I fully understand how that works but sounds like some impressive tech crammed into the WB Trinities.


Unrelated but have you ever had the opportunity to hear the Torus subwoofer. Interesting design concept.
WB takes a fairly unique approach to design. Sort of a mix of old-school minimalist with advanced materials.


It takes a very well-behaved and robust mid/woof to be able to run it without a cross-over. Most mid/woof drivers have resonances and will start to break-up at the top of their pass-band, which can result in a hashy and harsh sound. It will be interesting to see if WB has successfully pulled it off. Then again, the trade-off is that you get more overlap between mid and tweeter, which inevitably results in a vertical off-axis suckout.


The funny thing is that until the WBs, I had completely bought into commonly held belief that the best speakers are those with ultra flat frequency response, broad / even dispersion, ultra stiff / light driver diaphragms, low distortion, etc. Pretty much everything reported by the studies of Toole and Olive. I would seek out speakers solely on cutting edge tech and great looking graphs (and great looking cabinets







).


I still think these aspects of design are important, yet I'm still baffled that ended up liking WB speakers more than many of the speaker designs that tick off all the "perfect speaker" boxes. WB breaks many of these "rules" by using 1st order crossovers (or no crossover), "lossy" materials like plastic and fabric, and while the FR of their speakers is within an acceptable +/- 3dB range, it ain't Revel flat. And talk about low-tech, the Scan Speak tweeter that WB uses was designed back in 1993 for cripes sake!


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* 
I see, I need to read more on Audyssey set-up (on the Audyssey thread). I'm trying to better understand EQ'ing/calibration in general. I'm not sure I'm implementing the proper approach on my system, although it sounds good. Just need to more properly "balance" things, I'm feeling like my JL F110 may be too heavy, etc.,...I want to start from beginning and re-calibrate everything again.
There's not much to setting up Audyssey, though it is important that you get the mic placement right.


Use a camera tripod to place the mic tip at ear height and then follow these instructions for mic placement, and you will be golden:
http://ask.audyssey.com/forums/84181/entries/73284.html 

(download the .pdf file "Download measurement locations PDF")


As far as the bass level. I find that Audyssey sets the sub level about 3dB too high for me on my Denon AVR5308, so I always go into the trims afterwards and drop the sub level down. I also find that Dynamic EQ makes the bass sound way too hot, so I don't use that function at all.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dynfan* /forum/post/19509292
> 
> 
> 
> I think many of us have the same issue or desire to explore what is out there and that next great option. I for one could easily get hooked with upgrading speakers or other components on a regular basis. I do find it peculiar that you seem to mainly go through speakers however I can see where it provides the largest difference audibly and the appeal of switching them out.



As much as it may seem the opposite, I'm not one of those guys that wants to continually "upgrade", I'm a slightly different animal. I'm picky and if something doesn't work, then off it goes. The difference being that I'm not solely driven by the allure of greener grass, rather I just can't seem to find grass the right shade of green.







What you see on the front page of this thread is what started out as several attempts to find speakers to replace some M&K's I used to own. Then after happily living with some Paradigm's for a few years I thought I would try to find something better. That ended with the Wilson Benesch and Classe. Then after about a year and a half with the WBs, I thought "I really don't *need* all of this audiophile jewerly", so I set out to downgrade the cost of the gear with goal of not downgrading the performance. That was a bit idealistic on my part. Not that I couldn't have found gear at a lower cost that I liked as much as WB, but I think I would have had to have gone with something like a Proac, PMC or ATC, and those just aren't pretty enough for me.










Sure there was "some chasing the rainbow" along the way, but going through all of that gear was not for the thrill of the hunt. It was closer to an experiment and truth-seeking journey.


Oh and I have gone through a fair number of audio electronics too, I just haven't been as public about that. Going through a number of electronics, I did find that they had a some affect on the sound quality, but at the price bracket I was playing in, it was not usually enough to make or break the experience for me.... so I focus on speakers.



> Quote:
> I am in a similar position in that I want my multichannel rig/theater room to be a stereo listening haven first and multichannel second. I fully agree that if your system performs well with music it will handle movies with aplomb. That said my approach to achieving the same goal is somewhat different and I thought I would share in case it hadn't crossed your mind. I am using an equipment rack with all of my multichannel gear inside of it and initially thought to integrate the two channel components there. Run a dedicated 2 channel processor and/or integrated through the pre-pro and bypass it for HT use. I even tried this to an extent and decided to go a different route. I am going to be using a high quality integrated or a processor and amp combo, located in the front of the room between the speakers. I will use a cabinet that hides the components for the most part so as to not detract from the HT feel. That said I will essentially have two separate systems using the same speakers.



Actually, our goals are a bit different. I'm a solid 50/50 movies/music user and I don't necessarily believe that I need separate 2CH electronics to enjoy music. In fact, some of the most enjoyable times I've had listening to music was while I owned a Lexicon MC12HD processor and used Logic 7 processing to produce surround from 2ch recordings. Yes, for straight 2ch, the Classe was probably more refined and "musical", but I find the realistic sense of space and the sense of being transported to the venue offered by the Lexicon does a better job of lighting my fire.










So with your proposed set-up, I assume that you won't find it too inconvenient to have to swap speaker cables each time you want to switch between movie and music playback?



> Quote:
> The appeal to this setup is that you can use less expensive gear for the theater/movie side of things and still achieve perfectly acceptable if not amazing results for movies, and devote the saved $ to better stereo components. For example in your case you could easily get away with your receiver for movie's/TV and possibly even downgrade to save $ and allocate the saved finds to the stereo components. Anyway this is how I plan to achieve a room that does everything well.... If you have interest I will be more than happy to share the results.



Movies contain a lot of vocal and musical content that I wan't reproduced with the highest fidelity that I can afford. Now more than ever, with the introduction of lossless surround sound formats, and there are some very impressive live music discs on BluRay. However, it would be nice to have a tubed 2CH system in a separate room for a change in perspective every once in a while.



> Quote:
> Another thought I had while reading through your thread was money. With what you have invested and suffered a loss on with your different setups have you considered building a better room? I don't pretend to know your housing situation and whether or not an addition or remodel is feasible (given the lot size, building and zoning restrictions, and the dwelling itself) but I would certainly consider a better listening environment through a different room.



Yup, guilty as charged on this one, but as they say hindsight is 20/20. Had I known I was going to go through so much gear, I would have put that into a remodel of the room first. However, a lot of the money spent on all those speakers was recycled into the next replacement, so the total money spent is not nearly what it could have been. The room will be remodeled or we will move to a new home with a better room within the next couple of years I hope.



> Quote:
> Anyway I have enjoyed reading about your journey through hi-fi land and will continue to read and learn as well as share when relevant.



Stop by any time.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dynfan* /forum/post/19509292
> 
> 
> After reading through the entire thread I feel compelled to share some opinions and offerings...
> 
> 
> I think many of us have the same issue or desire to explore what is out there and that next great option. I for one could easily get hooked with upgrading speakers or other components on a regular basis. I do find it peculiar that you seem to mainly go through speakers however I can see where it provides the largest difference audibly and the appeal of switching them out.
> 
> 
> I am in a similar position in that I want my multichannel rig/theater room to be a stereo listening haven first and multichannel second. I fully agree that if your system performs well with music it will handle movies with aplomb. That said my approach to achieving the same goal is somewhat different and I thought I would share in case it hadn't crossed your mind. I am using an equipment rack with all of my multichannel gear inside of it and initially thought to integrate the two channel components there. Run a dedicated 2 channel processor and/or integrated through the pre-pro and bypass it for HT use. I even tried this to an extent and decided to go a different route. I am going to be using a high quality integrated or a processor and amp combo, located in the front of the room between the speakers. I will use a cabinet that hides the components for the most part so as to not detract from the HT feel. That said I will essentially have two separate systems using the same speakers.
> 
> 
> The appeal to this setup is that you can use less expensive gear for the theater/movie side of things and still achieve perfectly acceptable if not amazing results for movies, and devote the saved $ to better stereo components. For example in your case you could easily get away with your receiver for movie's/TV and possibly even downgrade to save $ and allocate the saved finds to the stereo components. Anyway this is how I plan to achieve a room that does everything well.... If you have interest I will be more than happy to share the results.
> 
> 
> Another thought I had while reading through your thread was money. With what you have invested and suffered a loss on with your different setups have you considered building a better room? I don't pretend to know your housing situation and whether or not an addition or remodel is feasible (given the lot size, building and zoning restrictions, and the dwelling itself) but I would certainly consider a better listening environment through a different room.
> 
> 
> Even with professional treatment I firmly believe you are making a large sacrifice with your current room. A more idealized room with your current gear would likely yield huge improvements and perhaps open up new sonic frontiers for you to explore and you would no longer have to "give up" anything because of room limitations. I say this because I know if I was devoting the kind of money that you are to this hobby, I certainly would not be willing to accept anything less than an ideal room. And let's face it if it was physically possible to do this I think you have already funded the addition and then some
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally it would be a better investment in that it certainly couldn't hurt resale value despite the housing market.
> 
> 
> Anyway I have enjoyed reading about your journey through hi-fi land and will continue to read and learn as well as share when relevant.
> 
> 
> Cheers!



Great looking media room. I"m envious of the large space and you did a great job (looks like most of it was diy, impressive!). Do you have finished pics with your stereo components in the front of the room. I have a much more smaller space but tried that dual setup, but got frustrated switching cables, so I sold my processor and stuck with 2 channel. Now I'm getting the bug again for multi channel, but the thought of trying to maintain the dual setup has held me back. What we all need is two giant rooms, one for HT and one for 2 channel.


----------



## dynfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19511951
> 
> 
> As much as it may seem the opposite, I'm not one of those guys that wants to continually "upgrade", I'm a slightly different animal. I'm picky and if something doesn't work, then off it goes. The difference being that I'm not solely driven by the allure of greener grass, rather I just can't seem to find grass the right shade of green.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you see on the front page of this thread is what started out as several attempts to find speakers to replace some M&K's I used to own. Then after happily living with some Paradigm's for a few years I thought I would try to find something better. That ended with the Wilson Benesch and Classe. Then after about a year and a half with the WBs, I thought "I really don't *need* all of this audiophile jewerly", so I set out to downgrade the cost of the gear with goal of not downgrading the performance. That was a bit idealistic on my part. Not that I couldn't have found gear at a lower cost that I liked as much as WB, but I think I would have had to have gone with something like a Proac, PMC or ATC, and those just aren't pretty enough for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure there was "some chasing the rainbow" along the way, but going through all of that gear was not for the thrill of the hunt. It was closer to an experiment and truth-seeking journey.
> 
> 
> Oh and I have gone through a fair number of audio electronics too, I just haven't been as public about that. Going through a number of electronics, I did find that they had a some affect on the sound quality, but at the price bracket I was playing in, it was not usually enough to make or break the experience for me.... so I focus on speakers.



I too am particular about appearance and have owned speakers that sounded good but didn't look the part so to speak. Likely not as particular as you in this regard, but I certainly respect and understand where you are coming from.




> Quote:
> Actually, our goals are a bit different. I'm a solid 50/50 movies/music user and I don't necessarily believe that I need separate 2CH electronics to enjoy music. In fact, some of the most enjoyable times I've had listening to music was while I owned a Lexicon MC12HD processor and used Logic 7 processing to produce surround from 2ch recordings. Yes, for straight 2ch, the Classe was probably more refined and "musical", but I find the realistic sense of space and the sense of being transported to the venue offered by the Lexicon does a better job of lighting my fire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So with your proposed set-up, I assume that you won't find it too inconvenient to have to swap speaker cables each time you want to switch between movie and music playback?



I see. As you can tell from my post I have not dove in to the deep end of the multi-channel audio pool. I have mostly been a two channel red book guy and just recently started downloading high res tracks. Right now I am using the digital audio out on my macbook to my Audio Refinement Pre2 and the sound is pretty damn impressive. I plan on a dedicated DAC upgrade in the near future for this medium.


With my setup I won't be swapping speaker cables. The plan is (and I have used this a few times thus far) for my multichannel rig all wiring is in-wall (as evidenced in my build thread) The wiring terminates at the speaker and I use the screw down terminals. For the two channel system I use dedicated speaker wires with banana plugs that plug in to the end of the screw down terminals. Both sets are always connected. Due to the nature of the different setups only one system will be powered on and playing at a time so I have yet to unplug and swap cables. Of course if I needed to I simply unplug the banana's or unscrew the surround wires. Very easy stuff.




> Quote:
> Movies contain a lot of vocal and musical content that I wan't reproduced with the highest fidelity that I can afford. Now more than ever, with the introduction of lossless surround sound formats, and there are some very impressive live music discs on BluRay. However, it would be nice to have a tubed 2CH system in a separate room for a change in perspective every once in a while.



I agree with this for sure. I would love a separate 2 channel room! The main reason for the two system approach is to explore higher end two channel offerings without reinventing the surround wheel. I'll admit that in comparison to yours my system is fairly modest however I am so pleased with the movie performance I am not compelled to change any portion of that at this time (save for a sub upgrade).




> Quote:
> Yup, guilty as charged on this one, but as they say hindsight is 20/20. Had I known I was going to go through so much gear, I would have put that into a remodel of the room first. However, a lot of the money spent on all those speakers was recycled into the next replacement, so the total money spent is not nearly what it could have been. The room will be remodeled or we will move to a new home with a better room within the next couple of years I hope.
> 
> 
> Stop by any time.



I have walked a similar line, I buy the next set and attempt to recoup a minimum of 70% of that purchase price through the sale of the old. That said we still don't wind up ahead in this scenario, just not as far behind







But hey this keeps us happy, sane, and interested in the hobby so it is worthwhile in my eyes!


----------



## dynfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19514147
> 
> 
> Great looking media room. I"m envious of the large space and you did a great job (looks like most of it was diy, impressive!). Do you have finished pics with your stereo components in the front of the room. I have a much more smaller space but tried that dual setup, but got frustrated switching cables, so I sold my processor and stuck with 2 channel. Now I'm getting the bug again for multi channel, but the thought of trying to maintain the dual setup has held me back. What we all need is two giant rooms, one for HT and one for 2 channel.



Thanks. The front end is not completed yet so no pics. but I will certainly post them as I make progress. I have done everything myself thus far including acoustic treatment construction. As I finish the room I will be adding more treatments and I am excited to get to that stage for sure. The room is decent now but needs absorption at the first reflection points and diffusion at the second.


I agree on the separate 2 channel room, luckily for me we bought this home with a home theater build in mind and while it was not perfect it was certainly a blank canvas!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> I see. As you can tell from my post I have not dove in to the deep end of the multi-channel audio pool. I have mostly been a two channel red book guy and just recently started downloading high res tracks. Right now I am using the digital audio out on my macbook to my Audio Refinement Pre2 and the sound is pretty damn impressive. I plan on a dedicated DAC upgrade in the near future for this medium.



Yeah, there still isn't a lot of multi-channel musical content available, or what is available is not always my taste. Hence my fascination with Logic 7 / Lexicon, since it creates multi-channel from 2CH. To the purest 2CH guys, it is sacrilege to even think about processing the signal to this extent, and the result to them would probably be dismissed as gimmicky, but when I had all the calibration parameters dialed-in for the Lexicon I thought the effect was very convincing.


So what sort of differences / improvements do you hear when listening to your 2CH rig vs. your M-CH? What drives you to go with a different set of electronics for 2CH?



> Quote:
> With my setup I won't be swapping speaker cables. The plan is (and I have used this a few times thus far) for my multichannel rig all wiring is in-wall (as evidenced in my build thread) The wiring terminates at the speaker and I use the screw down terminals. For the two channel system I use dedicated speaker wires with banana plugs that plug in to the end of the screw down terminals. Both sets are always connected. Due to the nature of the different setups only one system will be powered on and playing at a time so I have yet to unplug and swap cables. Of course if I needed to I simply unplug the banana's or unscrew the surround wires. Very easy stuff.



I see, that makes sense. Just thinking aloud, but have you looked into the possibility of problems on an electrical level by having two amps connected to the same speakers, even if only one is being used at a time? Does it affect the load the powered amp "sees", and things like that? If not, you may want to ask some of the guys in the DIY area.


If you forget that one amp is on, and you power up the other, it seems like some damage could occur, no?




> Quote:
> I have walked a similar line, I buy the next set and attempt to recoup a minimum of 70% of that purchase price through the sale of the old. *That said we still don't wind up ahead in this scenario, just not as far behind*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But hey this keeps us happy, sane, and interested in the hobby so it is worthwhile in my eyes!



So true.


----------



## Fanaticalism

Tim,


Any idea when the Trinities will arrive?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fanaticalism* /forum/post/19516734
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> Any idea when the Trinities will arrive?



There was a mix up during the wire transfer from dealer to WB that resulted in a two week delay. Would have had them by now







, but should have them within a couple of weeks







.


----------



## Warpdrv

Thats a bummer bro....


So I have to ask.... what will be the accompanying center for the Trinity...? I wasn't quite sure navigating the WB pages...


Those are awesome looking speakers, serious attention to detail, from what I read at this site... http://www.avguide.com/review/the-wi...speaker-system


----------



## Fanaticalism

Tim, I see you did not recommend getting the mic from Amazon, is there a reason for this? I ask because I am purchasing some other items from them and it would make things easier.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19520486
> 
> 
> Thats a bummer bro....
> 
> 
> So I have to ask.... what will be the accompanying center for the Trinity...? I wasn't quite sure navigating the WB pages...
> 
> 
> Those are awesome looking speakers, serious attention to detail, from what I read at this site... http://www.avguide.com/review/the-wi...speaker-system



Good question. At this point there is no identical matching center for the Trinity. However, the tweeter in the "Centre" is identical to the one used in the Trinity, and the midwoof in the Trinity is essentially the same as those in the Centre only with a stronger magnet. As a result, the tonality is said to be the same between the speakers, but the Trinity will have slightly higher sensitivity, and better transient response. I'll find out soon enough if this is true.










But, yeah, WB puts some serious care and detail into their designs. They are a relatively small but passionate company, so you won't see a new flavor of speaker coming out from them every year, but I think most companies that take that approach are more marketing driven than engineering driven anyway. The Discovery's I used to own were designed close to 10 years ago, and to these ears, they were better than many modern designs.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fanaticalism* /forum/post/19520794
> 
> 
> Tim, I see you did not recommend getting the mic from Amazon, is there a reason for this? I ask because I am purchasing some other items from them and it would make things easier.



I understand the confusion. I recommend you buy the mic from the Cross Spectrum because their mics come with a calibration file for the specific mic you buy. You load that file into REW so that you get a perfectly flat starting point for your measurements. You could buy the mic from Amazon and send it to Cross Spectrum for calibration for a cal file, but I think it will cost you more and take more time.


----------



## rajdeep

hi hifi

i was reading through your posts and found that you use mac mini for music.have you ever tried any media players for movies and music


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdeep* /forum/post/19528389
> 
> 
> hi hifi
> 
> i was reading through your posts and found that you use mac mini for music.have you ever tried any media players for movies and music



Hi Rajdeep -


I've tried Amarra as an add-on to iTunes that is supposed to improve sound quality, but I couldn't hear any difference at all with that player, so I stick with plain vanilla iTunes with all my music files stored in Apple Lossless. I may try one of the less expensive players like Pure Music ( http://www.channld.com/pure-music1.html ), but I don't expect much.


No movie playback through the Mac Mini for me. I only watch BluRay's, Macs don't do BluRay, and have no strong desire to store movies on a server since I rarely watch a movie more than once. However, if it were easy to do, I would probably change my mind on that.


----------



## Sunya




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19487344
> 
> *B&W 805Di*
> 
> Cons:
> 
> * Treble can sound overly sharp / edgy. It's not overtly offensive, but I am particularly sensitive to speakers that err in this way and ultimately it was enough to be distracting. That somewhat etched sharp quality to the sound is a constant reminder that I'm listening to a recording through speakers. It can also cause a bit of fatigue in the long term listening. Then again, it did make the sound more "vivid" and exciting. Depends on your perspective.
> 
> * Tweeter character sounds faster / sharper than the midrange, resulting in a slight lack of cohesion to the overall presentation.
> 
> * Midrange not as natural and "real" sounding as the best I've heard.



The FR of the 805Di
http://audio.com.pl/testy/bandw-805-diamond:1


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sunya* /forum/post/19541368
> 
> 
> The FR of the 805Di
> http://audio.com.pl/testy/bandw-805-diamond:1



Hi Sunya -


Yep, that peak at 10KHz and the trough in the low treble are likely responsible for part of the problems I heard with the 805Di.


Home Theater Mag also posted a similar looking measurement:











However, even when the FR was corrected by Audyssey, the problem of overly sharp treble persisted, but the sound was slightly more coherent.


----------



## calgaryjohn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tmueller* /forum/post/18738524
> 
> 
> Tim - It sounds like you are having a lot of fun mixed with some challenges. I would urge you to be patient, as mentioned in the Dynaudio Owner's Thread, until break-in is 100% complete. If the C1 is not the smoothest speaker you have heard after complete break-in than I suggest you get "back to basics" with these couple of points/ideas:
> 
> 
> 1.) See if your dealer will borrow you a simple integrated amplifier. (My favorite is the Naim Supernait but any high current low distortion design will work.)
> 
> 
> Dynaudio loudspeakers are extremely revealing and my personal HT Pre-Pro (Arcam 888) displays very similar issues that you are concerned with. Which is why a basic, relatively inexpensive, integrated amplifier can be a blessing when properly incorporated into a highly resolving HT.
> 
> 
> 2.) If #1 does not solve your problem start looking at your speaker cables. A good point to start when glare is an issue is with a basic high quality copper cable.
> 
> 
> Please let me know if you have any further questions.
> 
> 
> Cheers!



Point number 2 just keeps echoing in my ears! When all the gear sounds etched on one of the smoothest speakers made and you are using a variety of top end gear to drive them. It's either noisy power or wires or both.

sorry for not reading the whole thread.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *calgaryjohn* /forum/post/19577777
> 
> 
> Point number 2 just keeps echoing in my ears! When all the gear sounds etched on one of the smoothest speakers made and you are using a variety of top end gear to drive them. It's either noisy power or wires or both.
> 
> sorry for not reading the whole thread.



Hi John -


Yup it's a long thread, but if you had managed to stick with it a bit longer, you would have found that the C1's did in fact find their way to smoothness... after about 300 hours of use. I've never heard a speaker change so noticeably after break-in, or take as long to do it, but the C1's were dead neutral once the drivers loosened up.


FWIW - I was using a very high quality power conditioner, and did try different wires, when investigating the sound quality issues with the C1's. With that said, I don't buy into, and probably never will, the need for crazy expensive wiring the likes of Transparent and MIT's offerings.


----------



## Warpdrv

Just an FYI, for a simple mic and measuring system, head to the DIY area. I started a thread on the new upcoming Dayton Omnimic USB system coming out. It's looking to be something that will pan out nicely.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19580504
> 
> 
> Just an FYI, for a simple mic and measuring system, head to the DIY area. I started a thread on the new upcoming Dayton Omnimic USB system coming out. It's looking to be something that will pan out nicely.



Thanks Warp, that does look like a very good plug-n-play alternative to XTZ Room Analyzer, though it's too bad that they don't support Mac OSX.


When does it come out?


Your thread on the Omnimic:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...on+omnimic+usb 


Purchase link:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=390-790


----------



## hifisponge












After numerous delays in shipping, and a lot of hand-wringing on my part, I *think* I'm in the home stretch for receiving my Wilson Benesch Trinity speaker package. Delivery is now scheduled for 12/14/10. Hopefully this will be my last speaker acquisition for a few years.


----------



## ddingle

Hi! I thought I would bring up power conditioning. I have as usual been experimenting with different audio/video equipment at home. Many times we will install the same system at a client's home.


Recently I set up a stereo only system. Nothing too fancy. A custom speaker based the "Kepler" from Kevin Haskins at DIYcable.

An old amp filled in for my usual NAD T785 in this application. In the transition I did not hook up my power conditioner. Yesterday I connected everything to my "PurePower" AC regenerator. Long story short, these are highly recommended!


Power quality varies and yours might not be as bad,but these eliminate the power company altogether.Almost humorous how much it improved things!

Unfortunately a little pricey,but definitely worth a try.

http://www.purepoweraps.com/


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddingle* /forum/post/19597597
> 
> 
> Hi! I thought I would bring up power conditioning. I have as usual been experimenting with different audio/video equipment at home. Many times we will install the same system at a client's home.
> 
> 
> Recently I set up a stereo only system. Nothing too fancy. A custom speaker based the "Kepler" from Kevin Haskins at DIYcable.
> 
> An old amp filled in for my usual NAD T785 in this application. In the transition I did not hook up my power conditioner. Yesterday I connected everything to my "PurePower" AC regenerator. Long story short, these are highly recommended!
> 
> 
> Power quality varies and yours might not be as bad,but these eliminate the power company altogether.Almost humorous how much it improved things!
> 
> Unfortunately a little pricey,but definitely worth a try.
> 
> http://www.purepoweraps.com/



I've got a PS Audio AC Regenerator, and it does seem to give me a subtle improvement in clarity. Even if the difference isn't great, every little bit helps contribute to the greater good. While I don't normally buy into the need for power "conditioners" I figure you can't get the AC to be any more pure than to start fresh like the Pure Power and PS Audio units provide.


----------



## hifisponge

Decided to take it easy on the AV hobby for a while, so instead of plunking a bunch of money into a new prepro and amp right away, I'm shifting the money into another dormant passion of mine... cars.


Picked up a 2001 Porsche 911 Carrera last night. It's almost 11 years old, but since Porsche owners take excellent care of their cars and drive them very little, it looks close to new. I got it for a steal, and the funny (sad?) thing is, my home AV system probably still costs more than what I paid for it.




























It's like driving a 300HP go cart.


----------



## weird 23

Very nice Hifi!







I've been thinking the exact same think, my audio system just may have to be good enough for awhile. I've had my eye on a used Cayman S and doing some track days next summer. My father has the exact same year as yours except it's a convertible, they drive really nice. Congrats


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19618362
> 
> 
> Very nice Hifi!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been thinking the exact same think, my audio system just may have to be good enough for awhile. I've had my eye on a used Cayman S and doing some track days next summer. My father has the exact same year as yours except it's a convertible, they drive really nice. Congrats



I had an '82 911SC about ten years ago, and I've never really gotten that experience out of my mind. I saw an early Carrera in a parking lot a couple of weeks ago that looked just like my old car and that got me to thinking.... So I reviewed the budget and considered the amount of frustration the AV hobby has been bringing me lately... next thing you know, I'm scouring the internet for a classic Porsche. Had my eye on a 1990 in pristine condition, but realized that probably would be the most reliable choice. Not that any Porsche is cheap to maintain, but some are more reliable than others. This beauty passed a 6-page inspection with flying colors. Motor was rebuilt just 7K miles ago, so it is essentially like-new.


The ride is actually very stiff, and the engine growls like it's pissed off, but that's the charm. Feels like you'r driving a street legal racer.


Good luck on finding the right Cayman. That is a great addition to the Porsche line up.


----------



## CorboDuze

"Both elegant and hi-tech, like having a fine European sports car parked in your living room."


We all thought it was meant as a metaphor!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/19624450
> 
> 
> "Both elegant and hi-tech, like having a fine European sports car parked in your living room."
> 
> 
> We all thought it was meant as a metaphor!



That's a great idea. I'll just put a really nice sound system in the Porsche and wheel it into the living room when I want to listen to music at home. Might be kinda tough to see the TV over the car for HT though.


----------



## vantagesc

Congrats Tim. I find that the sports car hobby compliments the hifi hobby quite well. Gets you out of the house instead of isolated in your living room for hours on end.


PS: Looks like your 911 came with some updated wheels as well. Not sure those wheels were available until the 997 body.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/19627605
> 
> 
> Congrats Tim. I find that the sports car hobby compliments the hifi hobby quite well. Gets you out of the house instead of isolated in your living room for hours on end.
> 
> 
> PS: Looks like your 911 came with some updated wheels as well. Not sure those wheels were available until the 997 body.



I was wondering when you were going to comment.










Yup, those are 19" wheels for a 2005 model, and yes, the feelings of isolation are quickly slipping away. I was obsessed with getting the WB's back in my home, and now, they take a back seat (pun intended).










The WBs arrive tomorrow (finally!), and all I'm thinking about it going for a drive.


How's the Lotus and the Orion's treating you?


----------



## vantagesc

Very well sir, thanks for asking. Not much to complain about on either front. Never finished the Nelson Pass pre-amp (I hate soldering). Probably getting up early to go for a drive near the beach tomorrow.


I bet there are all kinds of nice roads up there in Washington. The wail of the flat6 is music of a different kind. Enjoy it!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/19629456
> 
> 
> Very well sir, thanks for asking. Not much to complain about on either front. Never finished the Nelson Pass pre-amp (I hate soldering). Probably getting up early to go for a drive near the beach tomorrow.
> 
> 
> I bet there are all kinds of nice roads up there in Washington. The wail of the flat6 is music of a different kind. Enjoy it!



That sounds great. Not many beaches out here, but the coastal drives and wooded backroads are beautiful.


The roar of the flat six *is* music. It's a very unique sound, that I fell in love with when I owned an '82 911SC several years ago. Though the sound of the version of the motor in this one is even more impressive. Its absolutely an awesome driving experience.


----------



## hifisponge

I haven't spent much time with them, but the Wilson Benesch speakers arrived last Saturday morning. Set up the front three, stuck the mac mini on random and let them play for the day while my wife and I spent all day Saturday driving around in my new (to me) Porsche 911, and x-mas shopping.


Right out of the box, the Trinities sounded rather bass-light and therefor bright. When I got home, the bass sounded better balanced, but still not as deep as the C1's or the WB Discos. Now on day 3, I'd say that they are about on par with the B&W 805Di's in regards to bass extension. I kinda figured the Trinities would be adequate but not their strong suit. I think at least part of it in my room is how those bottom ports interact with the room because the bass is much better when I stand in the middle of the room or next to the speaker. But this is of little consequence since the JL sub easily picks up the slack.


I've been listening solely with sub engaged and Audyssey doing it's thing, which sounds great. There is a *hint* of occasional hashiness to the sound through the upper mids / lower treble, much like the pre-break-in Dynaudio's, so I'm hoping they smooth out some over the coming weeks.


I love having surround sound again. There is so much life to movie and TV sound tracks that is missed with 5.1 being mixed down to two channels. I'm not joking when I say that there are even product commercials on TV that sound amazing now that I have surround again. The sound unfolds and blossoms all around you.


Oh, and the DTS Master HD intro (think DTS version of THX trailers) at the start of some Blu Rays is incredible. Startlingly dynamic.


The Trinities sure are gorgeous. The build quality is impeccable and I will never tire of the high-tech WB design aesthetic. Much better looking and better made than the Discos, even though I did really like the Discos for their odd looking design. The carbon fiber weave on the Trinity is unique too. A very complex pattern that shimmers more than the standard weave.


----------



## moonhawk

Cool, Tim


Hope they work out well for you.


Of course, then what will *we* have to do?


----------



## Bigred7078

no pics?


----------



## hifisponge

Please forgive my manners. A guy should know that pics must accompany a new gear acquisition notice. So sorry.























































And because those pics do no justice to the actual handsomeness of the WB Trinity, here are a couple that do.


----------



## weird 23

Very nice again Hifi, any new release's that you've been wanting to try with surround? You should hear that flat six roar with a cold air intake on it, I was driving my fathers this summer and it sounds even better than stock. You should really try out one of the Porsche driving schools, they are supposed to be fantastic. Any plans on some track days next summer?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19644343
> 
> 
> Very nice again Hifi, any new release's that you've been wanting to try with surround? You should hear that flat six roar with a cold air intake on it, I was driving my fathers this summer and it sounds even better than stock. You should really try out one of the Porsche driving schools, they are supposed to be fantastic. Any plans on some track days next summer?



Funny that you should mention cold air intake. I was just looking at the K&N CAI last night and wondering if it changed the sound of the motor at all. Can you describe the sound difference?


I've never done much to my cars, so I'm pretty new to the whole world of "tuning". Does the aftermarket CAI affect gas mileage?


Since I'm going to be really scaling back on the time I put into the AV hobby, I do think I'll start looking into things I can do with the Porsche like taking a driving course and some track time or PCA meets.


As far as the surround system, I've been holding off on all of the big Hollywood action flicks for this moment. Once the speakers have broken in, I think the first up will be Iron Man 2. Then Clash of the Titans, Toy Story 3, Jonah Hex and several others.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19644567
> 
> 
> Funny that you should mention cold air intake. I was just looking at the K&N CAI last night and wondering if it changed the sound of the motor at all. Can you describe the sound difference?
> 
> 
> I've never done much to my cars, so I'm pretty new to the whole world of "tuning". Does the aftermarket CAI affect gas mileage?
> 
> 
> Since I'm going to be really scaling back on the time I put into the AV hobby, I do think I'll start looking into things I can do with the Porsche like taking a driving course and some track time or PCA meets.
> 
> 
> As far as the surround system, I've been holding off on all of the big Hollywood action flicks for this moment. Once the speakers have broken in, I think the first up will be Iron Man 2. Then Clash of the Titans, Toy Story 3, Jonah Hex and several others.



The CAI sound is throttle dependent, for instance if you change the exhaust you hear the difference even at idle. The CAI isn't really apparent when cruising, the sound really starts to change when the cam really kicks in north of 4000-4500 rpm. I sounds the best when you pass a line of five or six cars, you get a harder edged, more aggressive growl that bounces back off of the cars or tunnels are great too, it's very addictive. One piece of advise, my father had a washable filter like the K&N installed at first and it ruined the mass air sensor. After these kinds of filters are washed they need to oiled, that oil can sometimes get pulled down the intake tract and gum up the sensor. He now has a paper cone filter that just gets replaced, the cost of the mass air sensor is a few times the cost of the CAI. Ask your Porsche dealer or your local Porsche owners club about this. As far as gas mileage, I only drive the car once and a while so I don't know. I used to have one on a Honda that I owned and it didn't affect that car really, not enough to worry about anyway. The one thing that impressed me the most about the Porsche wasn't the acceleration or the cornering, it was the brakes. It takes awhile to adjust to how late you can brake for a corner, I was always braking too early at first. This spring my dad plans to have headers and a new exhaust installed, I can't wait to hear that. I'm hoping within the next year or two I'll be able to pickup a sports car and a Porsche is on the top of my list. I'm glad that your enjoying it. Another small mod that my father did was to install a short throw shifter, a nice addition. Gear shifts are then just a flick of the wrist and require less concentration when pushing hard, it eliminates any slop in the shifter and I found lessens the chance of missing a shift.


----------



## Bigred7078

Thats more like it! Looks fantastic!


----------



## cavchameleon

Tim,


Those look AMAZING! Love the way the wires are attached to the bottom of the integrated stand, very sleek and clean! Keep up posted on the sound.


Also, congrats on your 'new' car - sexy looking.


Merry Christmas to all!!!

Ray


----------



## Audio 1

Tim I love the design/cosmetics of your new speakers. The combination of the aluminum and carbon fiber is like a finely crafted German vehicle.


I hope the turn out to be a nice long term solution for you.


Buddy


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19644788
> 
> 
> The CAI sound is throttle dependent, for instance if you change the exhaust you hear the difference even at idle. The CAI isn't really apparent when cruising, the sound really starts to change when the cam really kicks in north of 4000-4500 rpm. I sounds the best when you pass a line of five or six cars, you get a harder edged, more aggressive growl that bounces back off of the cars or tunnels are great too, it's very addictive. One piece of advise, my father had a washable filter like the K&N installed at first and it ruined the mass air sensor. After these kinds of filters are washed they need to oiled, that oil can sometimes get pulled down the intake tract and gum up the sensor. He now has a paper cone filter that just gets replaced, the cost of the mass air sensor is a few times the cost of the CAI. Ask your Porsche dealer or your local Porsche owners club about this. As far as gas mileage, I only drive the car once and a while so I don't know. I used to have one on a Honda that I owned and it didn't affect that car really, not enough to worry about anyway. The one thing that impressed me the most about the Porsche wasn't the acceleration or the cornering, it was the brakes. It takes awhile to adjust to how late you can brake for a corner, I was always braking too early at first. This spring my dad plans to have headers and a new exhaust installed, I can't wait to hear that. I'm hoping within the next year or two I'll be able to pickup a sports car and a Porsche is on the top of my list. I'm glad that your enjoying it. Another small mod that my father did was to install a short throw shifter, a nice addition. Gear shifts are then just a flick of the wrist and require less concentration when pushing hard, it eliminates any slop in the shifter and I found lessens the chance of missing a shift.



I was just reading the fine print on the K&N CAI system and it says it is only meant for use in mild weather and that for inclement or harsh weather the stock intake must be used. I live in rainy Seattle, so I wonder if there is an issue with having this on my car for fall / winter driving? I'll see what my Porsche mechanic has to say.


I'm glad you mentioned tunnel driving. I think I'll make a trip out to the I-90 tunnel to Seattle this week and take a trip through it with the windows down. Your description of racing past cars and through tunnels is just what I used to do with my first car-- a Datsun (Nissan) 240Z with performance exhaust. It was almost obnoxiously loud, but fun as hell.


What was this thread about again?


----------



## cavchameleon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19646583
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> What was this thread about again?



Boy's toys...they're all good...


----------



## vantagesc

Tim,

You should do some research on the K&N on a Porsche forum like Rennlist re the pros / cons. Usually they add a nice induction sound when you are on the throttle which can really add to the experience. On the downside, usually these K&N filters are oiled, which eventually may dirty the mass airflow sensor and cause a check engine light ("CEL"). Sometimes you can just clean off the sensor and reset the battery. The CEL may or may not be an issue, depending on the robustness of the Porsche ECU. K&N claims a power increase, so perhaps the ECU can cope. In some cars (like the Lotus), you see power gains initially, but the ECU "unlearns" the power increase because it doesn't want to exceed certain parameters. With new intake systems that add a lot more air, you can run the risk of your engine running slightly lean.


Don't mean to scare you off the K&N system or modding your car generally. I don't know much about CAIs as they relates to the 996. Just my experience with aftermarket products...there's more junk out there than stuff that works, so I've learned to be careful. If you aren't daily driving the car, I wouldn't hesitate to make it louder.










Edit: Here are some links
http://www.rennlist.com/996_faq/e.htm 

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...s-product.html


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/19646779
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> You should do some research on the K&N on a Porsche forum like Rennlist re the pros / cons. Usually they add a nice induction sound when you are on the throttle which can really add to the experience. On the downside, usually these K&N filters are oiled, which eventually may dirty the mass airflow sensor and cause a check engine light ("CEL"). Sometimes you can just clean off the sensor and reset the battery. The CEL may or may not be an issue, depending on the robustness of the Porsche ECU. K&N claims a power increase, so perhaps the ECU can cope. In some cars (like the Lotus), you see power gains initially, but the ECU "unlearns" the power increase because it doesn't want to exceed certain parameters. With new intake systems that add a lot more air, you can run the risk of your engine running slightly lean.
> 
> 
> Don't mean to scare you off the K&N system or modding your car generally. I don't know much about CAIs as they relates to the 996. Just my experience with aftermarket products...there's more junk out there than stuff that works, so I've learned to be careful. If you aren't daily driving the car, I wouldn't hesitate to make it louder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Here are some links
> http://www.rennlist.com/996_faq/e.htm
> 
> http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...s-product.html



Thanks for the advice and the links. I plan to consult my mechanic (Porsche specialist) before going with the K&N. I'm not going to go too far with performance upgrades, but the 20 extra horses and more aggressive sound of the K&N are attractive.


"Just my experience with aftermarket products...there's more junk out there than stuff that works."


Sounds a lot like this AV hobby.


----------



## CorboDuze

Nice Christmas tree.


----------



## hifisponge

Just to show how long I've been off the HT grid, I just watched Iron Man 2 for the first time. It was a fun ride. Even though I liked the first one a bit better, the Iron Man series is probably my favorite of the super hero movies. The movie was filled with great LFE moments, impressive use of the surround channels, and lots of eye candy.


----------



## Nuz1

I'm with you the first Iron Man was better. But the 2nd one was still fun.


Congrats on the new ride and the much anticipated arrival of the WBs. Have they continued to smooth out as you expected?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nuz1* /forum/post/19657716
> 
> 
> I'm with you the first Iron Man was better. But the 2nd one was still fun.
> 
> 
> Congrats on the new ride and the much anticipated arrival of the WBs. Have they continued to smooth out as you expected?



The WB's are still a bit too crispy. If this goes anything like the Dynaudios it will take a few hundred hours for the edge to leave. I think WB states a minimum of 120 hours for everything to seat in. Even if they don't change, I could still easily live the sound as-is.


----------



## WestCoastD

Hey Tim:


I've been very intrigued with the new Marantz AV7005 surround processor, seems to be gaining popularity. Users reporting clean operation. Very good price (@1499.00). Also some have reported as good or better 2ch analog than it's predecessor, the AV8003, also other brand/model pre-pro products (NAD T175, etc.,...).
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...266725&page=70 


Did'nt you use a AV8003 in the recent past? If so did how did you like it?


I'm very close to pulling the trigger on this (AV7005) unit, but still analyzing.


It's obvious Marantz put together a great product for the price in the AV7005, it has a great combination of features and performance at a great price, competitive with many other comparable products (ie. Integra, etc.,...). But I'm skeptical how much may have been sacrificed in refined sound-quality (for 2ch/5.1ch analog), and in other area's to save cost's? Or maybe they really put together a great design package at a great price?


I mention all this as I was reading the product spec sheet for the AV8003, it shows torroid power-supply, plated circuit boards, etc.,...I'm not sure how the AV7005 compares in this regard. But a few posters claim the AV7005 equals or betters the AV8003 in analog sound-quality, hmmmmmm.........


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19662176
> 
> 
> Hey Tim:
> 
> 
> I've been very intrigued with the new Marantz AV7005 surround processor, seems to be gaining popularity. Users reporting clean operation. Very good price (@1499.00). Also some have reported as good or better 2ch analog than it's predecessor, the AV8003, also other brand/model pre-pro products (NAD T175, etc.,...).
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...266725&page=70
> 
> 
> Did'nt you use a AV8003 in the recent past? If so did how did you like it?
> 
> 
> I'm very close to pulling the trigger on this (AV7005) unit, but still analyzing.
> 
> 
> It's obvious Marantz put together a great product for the price in the AV7005, it has a great combination of features and performance at a great price, competitive with many other comparable products (ie. Integra, etc.,...). But I'm skeptical how much may have been sacrificed in refined sound-quality (for 2ch/5.1ch analog), and in other area's to save cost's? Or maybe they really put together a great design package at a great price?
> 
> 
> I mention all this as I was reading the product spec sheet for the AV8003, it shows torroid power-supply, plated circuit boards, etc.,...I'm not sure how the AV7005 compares in this regard. But a few posters claim the AV7005 equals or betters the AV8003 in analog sound-quality, hmmmmmm.........



Hey WCD -


I liked the AV8003 for its smooth, more analog sound and it seems like a good match for those looking to take the edge off of overly sharp sounding speakers. I wouldn't pair it with already smooth or rolled off speakers though. It could be a step in the right direction for taming some of that sibilance you get from your MA GS's.


As far as the cost vs. performance, if there is anything that I've learned, is that you really have to judge each component based on its own merit. I don't universally love all Denon pieces, but I do really like the model I have and I think that it really does sound very close to the sound quality provided by high-end separates. Or for example, I prefer the sound of the Arcam AVR500 better than the more expensive model up, the AVR600.


All I'm saying is that more expensive doesn't always = subjectively better, and it quite possible that the 7004 could sound as good as or better than the 8003 to you. I also tend to think that audio electronics have to be subject to the same leaps in advancement as all other electronics right?. If we can get magnificent 1080P, deep color picture quality from a $200 bluray player that is undeniably better in every way than a $3,000+ reference DVD player from a few years ago, why can't we get that same sort of better-faster-cheaper gain from audio electronics? Just a thought.


Why not find a store with a 15-30 day return policy and give the AV7004 a shot?


----------



## CorboDuze

Tim,

Sorry if you already mentioned it before...Do you use a subwoofer in the system together with the Trinity? Did you use one with the Discovery (probably not necessary, I would think..)?

Last question: have you ever listened or tried the WB Torus?

Thanks.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19662311
> 
> 
> It could be a step in the right direction for taming some of that sibilance you get from your MA GS's



yes, this could be a good thing



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19662311
> 
> 
> As far as the cost vs. performance, if there is anything that I've learned, is that you really have to judge each component based on its own merit. All I'm saying is that more expensive doesn't always = subjectively better, and it quite possible that the 7004 could sound as good as or better than the 8003 to you



you're right here, just have to try it out on it's own merit. For me it's sort of a one-shot deal (physically and financially), can't necessarily go back.


I've always read good things about Marantz' analog sound character, supposedly warm and clean.


Appreciate all your points here!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/19662425
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> Sorry if you already mentioned it before...Do you use a subwoofer in the system together with the Trinity? Did you use one with the Discovery (probably not necessary, I would think..)?
> 
> Last question: have you ever listened or tried the WB Torus?
> 
> Thanks.



Yup, I have an undeniable love affair going with my JL F112. Best sub I've ever owned and as subs go it is pretty compact (just about a 15" cube).


Haven't heard the Torus, but based on the specs and graphs, seems like a music only sub. It has a max output of 100dB at 1 meter. The JL tromps that with an average of 115db at 2M, and it does it with articulation and "musicality". It is better in every way than my Velodyne DD15, which are known for being very clean and accurate.


----------



## CorboDuze

It looks like another fine piece of equipment. Interesting that you kept it even during the system recession phase.


If I may ask: how do you use it? Is it on strictly for watching movie, or also when listening music?


The reason I am asking is because I imagine that high-end speakers like Trinity or Discovery are designed to work in a stand alone mode for music. Is there not a risk of "coloring" the system with this additional element?


Thank you.


----------



## CorboDuze

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Hey WCD -

I also tend to think that audio electronics have to be subject to the same leaps in advancement as all other electronics right?. If we can get magnificent 1080P, deep color picture quality from a $200 bluray player that is undeniably better in every way than a $3,000+ reference DVD player from a few years ago, why can't we get that same sort of better-faster-cheaper gain from audio electronics? Just a thought.
Have audio electronics really evolved in the last 40 years?


Definitely, the sources have evolved. Now we have the lossless files, the servers, the streamers. This is definitely a leap in quality and cost compared to CD or lossy files. In terms of sound quality, we are probably now as good or better as LPs 25 years ago.


Regarding amplification and speakers? To the non specialist, it seems that no leap took place there. Nevertheless I noticed that Hi-Fi manufacturers raise the price of their existing products year after year. So the older the product gets, the more expensive it becomes. Conclusion: for amp and speakers, in order to get the best deal, it seems better to buy a "young" product rather than a more established model of the same quality.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/19664920
> 
> 
> It looks like another fine piece of equipment. Interesting that you kept it even during the system recession phase.
> 
> 
> If I may ask: how do you use it? Is it on strictly for watching movie, or also when listening music?
> 
> 
> The reason I am asking is because I imagine that high-end speakers like Trinity or Discovery are designed to work in a stand alone mode for music. Is there not a risk of "coloring" the system with this additional element?
> 
> 
> Thank you.



The Discoverys did a competent job of playing "full range" on their own, but the Trinity is designed to be mated to the Torus, and it is somewhat bass limited. While I'm sure that you could coax more bass out of the Trinity with careful placement, I certainly wouldn't use them or any monitor without a sub.


I'm sure that WB wouldn't approve of me mating the Trinity with the JL, but I know a good sub when I hear one, and the JL doesn't color the sound in the slightest.


Sure an improperly placed, improperly calibrated, or poorly integrated sub will either give a poor performance or at best an inconsistent one, but thanks to tools like Room EQ Wizard + PEQ, and/or technology like Audyssey EQ, I'm at a point that I can set up the sub once and feel no need to fiddle with it afterwards. There are occasional albums that are recorded too hot or too lean and for those I have EQ presets assigned in iTunes. Works like a charm.


I kept the JL sub even through my attempted downgrade because I knew that I would not be able to find its equal for output and sound quality for its size. You can get a much larger sub that has the output, or a smaller one that is just as "musical" (tight and articulate), but to find the combination of the two is pretty rare.


----------



## weird 23

Do you have any tips for reducing sibilance? I know the obvious one is to get new speakers but is there anything else that can be done? I hear a lot of this from my Paradigm Studio's.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19668009
> 
> 
> Do you have any tips for reducing sibilance? I know the obvious one is to get new speakers but is there anything else that can be done? I hear a lot of this from my Paradigm Studio's.



An EQ notch filter around 8-10KHz, tubed electronics, different speakers, or different recordings.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19668048
> 
> 
> An EQ notch filter around 8-10KHz, tubed electronics, different speakers, or different recordings.



An EQ notch filter? At the moment I'm using MCACC in my Pioneer, should I just lower the settings in your recommended band? I'm a complete noob at manually adjusting an eq. I've got the Pioneer for sale right now, so it will be replaced shortly. If that doesn't help I guess I'll have to start the search for new speakers, I can't live with the level of sibilance long term.


----------



## Warpdrv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19618272
> 
> 
> Picked up a 2001 Porsche 911 Carrera last night. It's almost 11 years old, but since Porsche owners take excellent care of their cars and drive them very little, it looks close to new.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's like driving a 300HP go cart.



Nice car Tim....


Welcome to the Maintenance Nightmare


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19668064
> 
> 
> An EQ notch filter? At the moment I'm using MCACC in my Pioneer, should I just lower the settings in your recommended band? I'm a complete noob at manually adjusting an eq. I've got the Pioneer for sale right now, so it will be replaced shortly. If that doesn't help I guess I'll have to start the search for new speakers, I can't live with the level of sibilance long term.



A notch filter is a narrow band EQ filter meant to kill certain frequencies without having much affect on the surrounding frequencies. You want this as opposed to using a broad filter (like the treble control) because you will take away too much of the overall detail. Does MCACC allow you to set the filter width?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19669280
> 
> 
> Nice car Tim....
> 
> 
> Welcome to the Maintenance Nightmare



Yeah, Porsche's aren't cheap to maintain, but it can't cost me any more than buying and selling speakers multiple times a year.










Seriously.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19671503
> 
> 
> yes, that is a killer car, great model. Beautiful color.



Thanks, I love it.



> Quote:
> that (the price of audio products) has boggled my mind from the beggining. The fact that I could buy, say, a new Mini for the same price as buying, say, a Meridian processor and a pair of B&W speakers.......



Tell me about it. Back just before I bought the Revel Studio2's, I saw this really beautiful new motorcycle pull into the parking lot where I work. I went back to my desk, googled the bike and it had a MSRP of roughly $13K. The Revels were $16K. I thought to myself, here is this magnificent piece of machinery (the motorcycle) that has thousands of intricate, custom machined parts, designed to exacting engineering standards for $13K. Now compare that to a set of painted MDF boxes with maybe $1000 worth of drivers for $16K?!! It is ridiculous really.



> Quote:
> my 2009 Mini Cooper-S is [really] like driving a 200HP go-cart



I bet that is a blast to drive. Themz a lot of horsies for that little guy. Based on your power to weight ratio, I'm pretty sure you'd win.


----------



## Warpdrv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19671740
> 
> 
> Thanks, I love it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me about it. Back just before I bought the Revel Studio2's, I saw this really beautiful new motorcycle pull into the parking lot where I work. I went back to my desk, googled the bike and it had a MSRP of roughly $13K. The Revels were $16K. I thought to myself, here is this magnificent piece of machinery (the motorcycle) that has thousands of intricate, custom machined parts, designed to exacting engineering standards for $13K. Now compare that to a set of painted MDF boxes with maybe $1000 worth of drivers for $16K?!! It is ridiculous really.



Aint that the truth.... Audio Phools.... we are....


I love my bike, certainly don't feel the need to spend the money on a supercar if I want to get my speed fix, for just a touch over $10K


Its nice to be able to afford the hobbies, whatever your fav is...


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Warpdrv* /forum/post/19674155
> 
> 
> Aint that the truth.... Audio Phools.... we are....
> 
> 
> I love my bike, certainly don't feel the need to spend the money on a supercar if I want to get my speed fix, for just a touch over $10K
> 
> 
> Its nice to be able to afford the hobbies, whatever your fav is...



If I felt I wouldn't potentially kill myself on a bike, it would be a fun option.


----------



## THE_FORCE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19668009
> 
> 
> Do you have any tips for reducing sibilance? I know the obvious one is to get new speakers but is there anything else that can be done? I hear a lot of this from my Paradigm Studio's.



You could always get a decent de-esser and stick it in your chain ? When you don't need it, just hit the bypass button and leave the signal untouched.


----------



## williamtassone




hifisponge said:


> .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me about it. Back just before I bought the Revel Studio2's, I saw this really beautiful new motorcycle pull into the parking lot where I work. I went back to my desk, googled the bike and it had a MSRP of roughly $13K. The Revels were $16K. I thought to myself, here is this magnificent piece of machinery (the motorcycle) that has thousands of intricate, custom machined parts, designed to exacting engineering standards for $13K. Now compare that to a set of painted MDF boxes with maybe $1000 worth of drivers for $16K?!! It is ridiculous really.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .......QUOTE]
> 
> 
> This post should be stickied on every hi fi forum worldwide


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *williamtassone* /forum/post/19675985
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19671740
> 
> 
> .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me about it. Back just before I bought the Revel Studio2's, I saw this really beautiful new motorcycle pull into the parking lot where I work. I went back to my desk, googled the bike and it had a MSRP of roughly $13K. The Revels were $16K. I thought to myself, here is this magnificent piece of machinery (the motorcycle) that has thousands of intricate, custom machined parts, designed to exacting engineering standards for $13K. Now compare that to a set of painted MDF boxes with maybe $1000 worth of drivers for $16K?!! It is ridiculous really.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This post should be stickied on every hi fi forum worldwide
Click to expand...


Make it so Number One, make it so.


----------



## hifisponge

Just wanted to post some better pics of the new ride.


Fresh out of the detail shop....


----------



## vantagesc

Look at the water bead! Lookin good. If you start washing / waxing your car in the future, let me know. I can recommend a slew of good detailing products.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vantagesc* /forum/post/19687050
> 
> 
> Look at the water bead! Lookin good. If you start washing / waxing your car in the future, let me know. I can recommend a slew of good detailing products.



Yes please. Just PM or e-mail me.


----------



## WestCoastD

I've been using this form of very pure carnauba wax product for years now, I love it.............
http://www.zymol.com/index.aspx


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19683279
> 
> 
> Just wanted to post some better pics of the new ride.
> 
> 
> Fresh out of the detail shop....



Lookin' good!


It looks fast just standing still.


I suppose living in the Pacific Northwest, where it rains 362 days a year, you needs a quality wax.


----------



## Fanaticalism




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19692469
> 
> 
> I've been using this form of very pure carnauba wax product for years now, I love it.............
> http://www.zymol.com/index.aspx



LOVE Zymol!


For interior treatment I recommend Griots Garage.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19692469
> 
> 
> I've been using this form of very pure carnauba wax product for years now, I love it.............
> http://www.zymol.com/index.aspx



Yeah, I've used some Zymol products in the past that have been very good. It's been so long since I've had a car that I care about that I don't remember what those products were, but it is all coming back slowly.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/19693433
> 
> 
> Lookin' good!
> 
> 
> It looks fast just standing still.
> 
> 
> I suppose living in the Pacific Northwest, where it rains 362 days a year, you needs a quality wax.



It has been raining like crazy lately here. More than usual. The rain beads on the new wax job sure look cool though.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19694932
> 
> 
> Yeah, I've used some Zymol products in the past that have been very good. It's been so long since I've had a car that I care about that I don't remember what those products were, but it is all coming back slowly



call the Zymol customer service number, if your lucky enough you may get the actual company founder (forget his name) on the line, he's a great guy and will tell you specifically which wax product to use on your Porsche paint. Zymol wax product is formulated for the various auto manufacturer's particular paint characteristic. I used to use Zymol "Japon" for my Acura Integra's (supposedly Honda paint is considered on the "soft" side). Now I use "Carbon" on my silver/grey Mini, it is formulated for darker tones. "Creame" is recommended for lighter (whitish) colored tones. They also have other custom blends:
http://www.zymol.com/complete.aspx 
http://www.zymol.com/complete.aspx?page=2 
http://www.zymol.com/complete.aspx?page=3 
http://www.zymol.com/complete.aspx?page=4 


I use the "Detail" blend on front/rear air-dam/bumper surface's molded from plastic which use paint blended with "flex" additives. Apparently "Detail" is a harder carnauba blend:
http://www.zymol.com/zymoldetailwax2oz.aspx 


You have to use the "HD-Cleanse" polish before applying wax (this stuff is killer!):
http://www.zymol.com/zymolhd-cleanse85oz.aspx 


This stuff really does work well.


----------



## CorboDuze

I did not know Wilson Benesch was also making cars. Very impressive.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19695281
> 
> 
> call the Zymol customer service number, if your lucky enough you may get the actual company founder (forget his name) on the line, he's a great guy and will tell you specifically which wax product to use on your Porsche paint. Zymol wax product is formulated for the various auto manufacturer's particular paint characteristic. I used to use Zymol "Japon" for my Acura Integra's (supposedly Honda paint is considered on the "soft" side). Now I use "Carbon" on my silver/grey Mini, it is formulated for darker tones. "Creame" is recommended for lighter (whitish) colored tones. They also have other custom blends:
> http://www.zymol.com/complete.aspx
> http://www.zymol.com/complete.aspx?page=2
> http://www.zymol.com/complete.aspx?page=3
> http://www.zymol.com/complete.aspx?page=4
> 
> 
> I use the "Detail" blend on front/rear air-dam/bumper surface's molded from plastic which use paint blended with "flex" additives. Apparently "Detail" is a harder carnauba blend:
> http://www.zymol.com/zymoldetailwax2oz.aspx
> 
> 
> You have to use the "HD-Cleanse" polish before applying wax (this stuff is killer!):
> http://www.zymol.com/zymolhd-cleanse85oz.aspx
> 
> 
> This stuff really does work well.



Thanks for all of the info and the links.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/19695443
> 
> 
> I did not know Wilson Benesch was also making cars. Very impressive.



Well, I've always joked that WB speakers look like a sports car for your living room, so now I've got one inside and out.


----------



## hifisponge

Back on the subject of audio for a moment ....










I finally got the opportunity to listen to the Vivid Audio B1 speakers.


These unusual looking guys:











They sound fantastic! Probably in my top 5 for all time favorite speakers.


Fellow AVSer "7Ryder" had a demo pair shipped to him here in Seattle and he invited me over for a listen.


I knew right when they started playing that they were very good, but with extended listening through all of my reference music, they kept on delivering the goods. You can pretty much check off just about every desirable sound quality trait. Natural tone, excellent detail, broad and deep soundstage, excellent imaging, deep / articulate bass (really no need for a sub with these). I could go on down the list, but I really didn't hear any meaningful weakness. Even with all of those gleaming metal drivers, there was little if any metallic sound.


If you are OK with the unusual cabinet design, and you've got the scratch.....


.....highly recommended.


----------



## ERAU23

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Back on the subject of audio for a moment ....










I finally got the opportunity to listen to the Vivid Audio B1 speakers.


These unusual looking guys:











They sound fantastic! Probably in my top 5 for all time favorite speakers.


Fellow AVSer "7Ryder" had a demo pair shipped to him here in Seattle and he invited me over for a listen.


I knew right when they started playing that they were very good, but with extended listening through all of my reference music, they kept on delivering the goods. You can pretty much check off just about every desirable sound quality trait. Natural tone, excellent detail, broad and deep soundstage, excellent imaging, deep / articulate bass (really no need for a sub with these). I could go on down the list, but I really didn't hear any meaningful weakness. Even with all of those gleaming metal drivers, there was little if any metallic sound.


If you are OK with the unusual cabinet design, and you've got the scratch.....


.....highly recommended.
Tim- Can you run down that top five list now?


So if I remember correctly 7Ryder has the Classe SSP-800, but what amplifier does he have at the moment?


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ERAU23* 
Tim- Can you run down that top five list now?


So if I remember correctly 7Ryder has the Classe SSP-800, but what amplifier does he have at the moment?
Well the list does fluctuate a bit depending on my mood, and I suppose looking back at it, it is to some extent the system as a whole, but here's my best shot.


Meridian DSP 8000

Vivid B1

Wilson Benesch Discovery

Dali Helicon

B&W Sig Diamond

Wilson Audio Alexandria

Avalon Indra

Revel Gem (original)

Paradigm Sig S8 V1


I've tried to place them in order of preference, but that is easier said than done. For the most part, I like different things about each of them.


7Ryder is still using Parasound amps.


----------



## Roger Dressler

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Back on the subject of audio for a moment ....










I finally got the opportunity to listen to the Vivid Audio B1 speakers.


Fellow AVSer "7Ryder" had a demo pair shipped to him here in Seattle and he invited me over for a listen.


I knew right when they started playing that they were very good, but with extended listening through all of my reference music, they kept on delivering the goods. You can pretty much check off just about every desirable sound quality trait. Natural tone, excellent detail, broad and deep soundstage, excellent imaging, deep / articulate bass (really no need for a sub with these). I could go on down the list, but I really didn't hear any meaningful weakness. Even with all of those gleaming metal drivers, there was little if any metallic sound.
High praise indeed. They must be special.


Can I infer that these speakers have _ushered_ in a distinctly different character through the HF region than his previous kit? Less emphasized, or glaring, shall we say? That would be a rather dramatic change for him, I'd think.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/19701249
> 
> 
> High praise indeed. They must be special.
> 
> 
> Can I infer that these speakers have _ushered_ in a distinctly different character through the HF region than his previous kit? Less emphasized, or glaring, shall we say? That would be a rather dramatic change for him, I'd think.



Nice pun Roger! Yes, the Vivids are very natural sounding and much more dynamic than the Usher Mini Dancer 2. As you know Usher upgraded the BE tweeters with the DMD tweeters and I installed them shortly before you visited that day...they did settle down a bit, but the Vivids are in a whole different league.


Monday night I got home around 6 and spent 3 hours listening to song after song marveling at how good these speakers are. While they are revealing speakers, they aren't analytical or fatiguing at all. The measurements are deceiving too; as Tim says, they really load up my room much better than the Ushers whose LF specs go lower than the Vivid's. I have been running my PS Audio PWD w/bridge on bypass through the Classe and not missing the subs at all. And to answer an earlier question, Parasound JC-1 mono blocks power the mains and I have an A51 for center and surrounds.


I agree with Tim, highly recommended speakers and if you're interested in these, call Mike @ Tweek Geek, as he's highly recommended too.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/19701249
> 
> 
> Can I infer that these speakers have _ushered_ in a distinctly different character through the HF region than his previous kit? Less emphasized, or glaring, shall we say?



No question. I kept waiting to hear some sort of metallic tizziness, edgy overemphasis, or something artificial though the upper mids or treble, but it just wasn't there. Not that a speaker should be judged alone by its inoffensiveness. I've listened to some very well behaved speakers that sucked all of the life out of the music.


The Vivids are not only virtually distortion-free, they are "vivid", in the best sense of the word.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19701223
> 
> 
> Well the list does fluctuate a bit depending on my mood, and I suppose looking back at it, it is to some extent the system as a whole, but here's my best shot.
> 
> 
> Meridian DSP 8000
> 
> Vivid B1
> 
> Wilson Benesch Discovery
> 
> Dali Helicon
> 
> B&W Sig Diamond
> 
> Wilson Audio Alexandria
> 
> Avalon Indra
> 
> Revel Gem (original)
> 
> Paradigm Sig S8 V1
> 
> 
> I've tried to place them in order of preference, but that is easier said than done. For the most part, I like different things about each of them.
> 
> 
> 7Ryder is still using Parasound amps.



Where's the Sasha? The Sasha + AR stack is still in my top 5.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19702959
> 
> 
> Where's the Sasha? The Sasha + AR stack is still in my top 5.



Yeah they should be in there too. I knew I was forgetting something.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19700283
> 
> 
> Back on the subject of audio for a moment ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I finally got the opportunity to listen to the Vivid Audio B1 speakers.
> 
> 
> These unusual looking guys:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They sound fantastic! Probably in my top 5 for all time favorite speakers.
> 
> 
> Fellow AVSer "7Ryder" had a demo pair shipped to him here in Seattle and he invited me over for a listen.
> 
> 
> I knew right when they started playing that they were very good, but with extended listening through all of my reference music, they kept on delivering the goods. You can pretty much check off just about every desirable sound quality trait. Natural tone, excellent detail, broad and deep soundstage, excellent imaging, deep / articulate bass (really no need for a sub with these). I could go on down the list, but I really didn't hear any meaningful weakness. Even with all of those gleaming metal drivers, there was little if any metallic sound.
> 
> 
> If you are OK with the unusual cabinet design, and you've got the scratch.....
> 
> 
> .....highly recommended.



I had the pleasure of helping 7Ryder unpack and set them up. It was a bit scary as the tweeters are extremely fragile but worth the effort as I got a good listen to them. They were alright


----------



## ERAU23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19703444
> 
> 
> I had the pleasure of helping 7Ryder unpack and set them up. It was a bit scary as the tweeters are extremely fragile but worth the effort as I got a good listen to them. They were alright



Wow! High praise from you guys, given your experience with different speakers. The pedigree of these speakers is very impressive as well and all for $15K....seems like a good buy considering the company that they are in...i.e. Meridian.


So Chris....is Santa bringing these in throw the chimney or the front door







?


Ed


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19702959
> 
> 
> Where's the Sasha? The Sasha + AR stack is still in my top 5.



what was in the AR stack?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/19707686
> 
> 
> what was in the AR stack?



The AR stack was entirely Audio Research components (Amp, Preamp, CD player, etc.)


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/19707686
> 
> 
> what was in the AR stack?



Like Tim said, all AR cd, amplifier and preamp.


Preamp-ARC 40th Anniversary/Reference 5

Amplifier-ARC Reference 110

Source-ARC DAC8/CD7


For the Vivid's I thought Luxman pairing was very impressive. But your electronics aren't exactly chopped liver so not sure how much improvement you'd see.


----------



## Husker43

Hifisponge, Do you have a preference of speakers picked out under the $3,000 budget? (Right/Left) I was thinking about picking up the Monitor Audio GX 200s for my HT in a couple months.


I would love to hear your opinion because it sounds like you have heard some awesome speakers that I only have heard of from the forum!


Thanks man! by the way, you have an awesome Porsche!


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Husker43* 
Hifisponge, Do you have a preference of speakers picked out under the $3,000 budget? (Right/Left) I was thinking about picking up the Monitor Audio GX 200s for my HT in a couple months.


I would love to hear your opinion because it sounds like you have heard some awesome speakers that I only have heard of from the forum!


Thanks man! by the way, you have an awesome Porsche!
Hi Husker43 -


Unfortunately, I haven't heard the new MA GX series, but MA makes great speakers so you should certainly give them a listen when they are released. I have listened to and owned more than my fair share of speakers, but that doesn't make me an authority on what sounds good. Even if I had heard the GX's, just like finding a car you enjoy driving, you need to go out and test drive all of the speakers in your price range to find a set that lines up with your personal taste in sound. Once you think you'v narrowed it down to one or two final speakers, see if you can get them on loan to bring home for a final audition.


Good luck!


----------



## weird 23

Happy New Year Hifi. I placed an order for the Marantz AV 7005 a couple of days ago and I'm wondering if the Audyssey Pro Kit is a worthwhile investment. I know that you have some experience with it, what are your thoughts on Audyssey Pro vs XT? Audyssey Pro is similar to ARC in the sense that you have to use a PC is it not?


----------



## hifisponge

Happy New Year W23!


I would take a wait and see approach to the Audyssey Pro kit. The main advantage IMO is the ability to customize the target curve if you feel it is needed. If you run the standard Audyssey and like what you hear, then save your money. If you don't like the standard results, first play around with the measurement points, then if that doesn't pan out get the pro kit. Oh, and tes, you use a PC with the pro version.


The other theoretical benefit is being able to expand the total measurement points out to 32, but I find no need for that. 6 points works well for me.


----------



## CorboDuze

All right, now the People want to know.


What about the new speakers?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/19753207
> 
> 
> All right, now the People want to know.
> 
> 
> What about the new speakers?



Honestly, as stand alone monitors, the Wilson Benesch Discovery speakers were better bass performers in my room the the Trinity. But with a sub, and a bit of EQ, the Trinities are doing quite well. They have the same expansive soundstage and natural midrange quality that I appreciated in the Discos. I can't say that I hear any contribution of the Trinity super tweeter to the sound, but then I haven't had the chance to really listen to any hi-rez recordings, where the super tweeter would be in use.


The bottom line is that the WBs are going to stay. They do many things well, they have no glaring faults and they respond well to EQ. That works for me.


----------



## dgbarar

I have enjoyed reading this thread, but it has been 12 days since anyone has posted. Since Tim appears satisfied with his new WBs one has the ask the question. Is Tim's odyssey is over?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dgbarar* /forum/post/19824761
> 
> 
> I have enjoyed reading this thread, but it has been 12 days since anyone has posted. Since Tim appears satisfied with his new WBs one has the ask the question. Is Tim's odyssey is over?



Hey dgbarar -


I'm glad to have shared all of my experiences here, and its great to have had so many here join in with their interest and help, but yup, I'm afraid it is over, for quite a while anyway.


I'm pretty burnt out on the hobby and the last year of gear swapping was really more frustrating than fun. I need to take a break.










Truth is, the deeper I've gotten into high-end AV, the more disenchanted I've become. The gains are often very small or nonexistent with each "upgrade", or even worse, the higher priced stuff sounds worse than the lower priced gear. There are some gems in there for sure, but I'd like to see more consistency across the board. In my experience, the difference are often sadly disparaging. Case in point, I listened to a set of Wilson Sophia's ($16K a pair) at a friends house and I'd honestly rather listen to a set of $6K Paradigms.


I'm sure at some point in the future my interest in the hobby will return, but my heavy risk-taking days are over.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19825729
> 
> 
> Hey dgbarar -
> 
> 
> I'm glad to have shared all of my experiences here, and its great to have had so many here join in with their interest and help, but yup, I'm afraid it is over, for quite a while anyway.
> 
> 
> I'm pretty burnt out on the hobby and the last year of gear swapping was really more frustrating than fun. I need to take a break.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truth is, the deeper I've gotten into high-end AV, the more disenchanted I've become. The gains are often very small or nonexistent with each "upgrade", or even worse, the higher priced stuff sounds worse than the lower priced gear. There are some gems in there for sure, but I'd like to see more consistency across the board. In my experience, the difference are often sadly disparaging. Case in point, I listened to a set of Wilson Sophia's ($16K a pair) at a friends house and I'd honestly rather listen to a set of $6K Paradigms.
> 
> 
> I'm sure at some point in the future my interest in the hobby will return, but my heavy risk-taking days are over.



If this adventure is over for a while, can you point us to the Porsche board that you're now participating in so we can enjoy that new journey!










BTW, as you know, I totally agree about the Wilsons!


----------



## Mike_WI

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Hey dgbarar -


I'm glad to have shared all of my experiences here, and its great to have had so many here join in with their interest and help, but yup, I'm afraid it is over, for quite a while anyway.


I'm pretty burnt out on the hobby and the last year of gear swapping was really more frustrating than fun. I need to take a break.










Truth is, the deeper I've gotten into high-end AV, the more disenchanted I've become. The gains are often very small or nonexistent with each "upgrade", or even worse, the higher priced stuff sounds worse than the lower priced gear. There are some gems in there for sure, but I'd like to see more consistency across the board. In my experience, the difference are often sadly disparaging. Case in point, I listened to a set of Wilson Sophia's ($16K a pair) at a friends house and I'd honestly rather listen to a set of $6K Paradigms.


I'm sure at some point in the future my interest in the hobby will return, but my heavy risk-taking days are over.








Great post and insight.

I'm sure after a little break the itch to experiment will grab you again.

However, maybe you start playing with low to moderately priced gear rather than the uber-priced stuff.


Mike


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/19827117
> 
> 
> If this adventure is over for a while, can you point us to the Porsche board that you're now participating in so we can enjoy that new journey!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, as you know, I totally agree about the Wilsons!



Porsche Board! That sounds like an expensive journey. Might I suggest, knitting or entering your cute pugs in local dog shows.


I give 3-4 months, Lexicon will come out with a new HT processor and the fire will burn again.


That Wilson demo was disheartening and I concur with both of you.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/19827117
> 
> 
> If this adventure is over for a while, can you point us to the Porsche board that you're now participating in so we can enjoy that new journey!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, as you know, I totally agree about the Wilsons!



You know me too well.










I've already got a list a page long of all the things I want to improve / restore on the 911.










While I've been disappointed with a lot of the high-end AV offerings, I just have to say again, you found a set of speakers in the Vivids that justify the high-end price. They not only sound the part, but the build quality lives up to the expectation as well. The drivers alone in the Vivids are an engineering work of art. Now we just need to get the rest of the high-end sector to deliver that sort of experience more consistently-- each in their own special way of course.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19828823
> 
> 
> Porsche Board! That sounds like an expensive journey. Might I suggest, knitting or entering your cute pugs in local dog shows.
> 
> 
> I give 3-4 months, Lexicon will come out with a new HT processor and the fire will burn again.
> 
> 
> That Wilson demo was disheartening and I concur with both of you.



Knitting and dog shows. Too funny.










You want to hear something really funny, Porsche performance upgrades and parts are actually affordable compared to much of high end AV, AND.... the gains are much more concrete. Just as an example, for $1200 in parts and $600 in labor, I can upgrade the suspension to a firmer, more responsive and visibly lower ride. Sport exhaust is under $500. Those two things alone would undeniably improve the driving experience. You could spend that much and easily more on a high-end disc player or DAC and get questionable results at best.


I'll admit that I was disappointed that there was no news on a new processor from Lexicon at the CES show, but also relieved. I'll probably still pick up that piece when it eventually comes out.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mike_WI* /forum/post/19827685
> 
> 
> Great post and insight.
> 
> I'm sure after a little break the itch to experiment will grab you again.
> 
> However, maybe you start playing with low to moderately priced gear rather than the uber-priced stuff.
> 
> 
> Mike



Thanks Mike.


I think that once Lexicon updates the MC12, that will be my last high-end purchase, but then my focus really needs to be on getting a better room and making the most of what I have.


----------



## Roger Dressler

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
I'll admit that I was disappointed that there was no news on a new processor from Lexicon at the CES show, but also relieved. I'll probably still pick up that piece when it eventually comes out.
 It was shown , behind closed doors, that is.


----------



## 7ryder

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
You know me too well.










I've already got a list a page long of all the things I want to improve / restore on the 911.










While I've been disappointed with a lot of the high-end AV offerings, I just have to say again, you found a set of speakers in the Vivids that justify the high-end price. They not only sound the part, but the build quality lives up to the expectation as well. The drivers alone in the Vivids are an engineering work of art. Now we just need to get the rest of the high-end sector to deliver that sort of experience more consistently-- each in their own special way of course.
Coincidentally the new Stereophile just showed up at the house -- Sophia IIIs on the cover and The Fifth Element covers the Vivid B-1...will be interesting to read the reviews...I know what I'd write about both!


----------



## chjo100

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* 
It was shown , behind closed doors, that is.
Just when Tim thought he was out...


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* 
It was shown , behind closed doors, that is.
Without a public unveiling I'm guessing that it is still a ways out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *7ryder* 
Coincidentally the new Stereophile just showed up at the house -- Sophia IIIs on the cover and The Fifth Element covers the Vivid B-1...will be interesting to read the reviews...I know what I'd write about both!
If the Sophia 3's are on the cover, they will lie.









Quote:

Originally Posted by *chjo100* 
Just when Tim thought he was out...
Damn!


----------



## CLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19829107
> 
> 
> Porsche performance upgrades and parts are actually affordable compared to much of high end AV, AND.... the gains are much more concrete. Just as an example, for $1200 in parts and $600 in labor, I can upgrade the suspension to a firmer, more responsive and visibly lower ride. Sport exhaust is under $500. Those two things alone would undeniably improve the driving experience. You could spend that much and easily more on a high-end disc player or DAC and get questionable results at best.



Is there any room for tube amps ?







Nice car Tim, enjoy!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLS* /forum/post/19834549
> 
> 
> Is there any room for tube amps ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice car Tim, enjoy!



You kid, but Butler Audio makes a hybrid tube / SS car amp. It could happen.


----------



## Geoff4RFC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19683279
> 
> 
> Just wanted to post some better pics of the new ride.
> 
> 
> Fresh out of the detail shop....



Hey, I know that area.........I'm a Universtiy Place resident working in Lake- hood, I mean Lakewood, my wife works in Fife.


Rain rain rain, can't wait to get back home to Texas, been here in WA for far too many years. That's cool though, just a few more years to go.........


----------



## hifisponge

Hey Geoff -


Sorry you're not diggin' the weather here in the evergreen state. It wouldn't be evergreen if it weren't forever raining.










I've been to Texas on business once and funny enough, there was a fair amount of rain when I was there. But the weird thing was that was like 90 degrees and down-pouring! Great people though, and some of the nicest and best looking women in the country.


----------



## Geoff4RFC

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Hey Geoff -


Sorry you're not diggin' the weather here in the evergreen state. It wouldn't be evergreen if it weren't forever raining.










I've been to Texas on business once and funny enough, there was a fair amount of rain when I was there. But the weird thing was that was like 90 degrees and down-pouring! Great people though, and some of the nicest and best looking women in the country.








Hey Tim, it's been tolerable lol. I've been in the N.W. long enough to enjoy and appreciate it's beauty, heck, by now I've spent the better part of my life here since getting stationed at McChord AFB back in '79, going back to TX in '82 and coming back in '83. If anything, I've learned how to be a successful racer in the rain being licensed with WA and OR motorcycle road racing associations.


The one thing I haven't been able to get used to is that no one here knows how to eat a decent breakfast










I've enjoyed the pictures of your H.T. very nice!!!


Portlands straight;











Seattle's turn 4; note the local sponsors Freeway trailer and NW Mortgage











and one more, Portlands turn 9











Just for info, photos 1 and 3 were in 2005 on a Suzuki GSX-R 750, photo 2 was 2006 on the monster Suz GSX-R 1000, by far the coolest bike I ever rode.


Okay, what the heck, one more photo of the beast;




















Oops, how did that crash picture get in there, not always fun and games huh?


Peace my N.W. now H.T. brother


Geoffrey


----------



## hifisponge

Looks like fun, all except that last pic. I fear that if I ever attempted to get on a bike, I'd have more crash than turn pics.


I've been on the back of a few of those super bikes, and I've yet to experience that sort of blinding speed with anything on four wheels.


Be careful out there.


----------



## Geoff4RFC

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Looks like fun, all except that last pic. I fear that if I ever attempted to get on a bike, I'd have more crash than turn pics.


I've been on the back of a few of those super bikes, and I've yet to experience that sort of blinding speed with anything on four wheels.


Be careful out there.








Thanks Tim. I've been out of racing since the end of '08, economy put a crunch in my sponsor budget, expenses rate right up there with your H.T. configuration










The absence of racing is what put me in the H.T. drivers seat in the first place, dog gone obsessive hobby habits. But I've started with a very modest entry level and have been upgrading to a less modest level. After seeing your system changes and experiencing my own personal tastes, I see this thing is for life


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Geoff4RFC* 
Thanks Tim. I've been out of racing since the end of '08, economy put a crunch in my sponsor budget, expenses rate right up there with your H.T. configuration










The absence of racing is what put me in the H.T. drivers seat in the first place, dog gone obsessive hobby habits. But I've started with a very modest entry level and have been upgrading to a less modest level. After seeing your system changes and experiencing my own personal tastes, I see this thing is for life








Well, if you read the last few posts, you'll see that I'm on the way out..... finally. The last few years have been interesting, as I got to experience first hand what the high-end has to offer and the sort of differences exist between different types of AV components, but that "investigation" turned obsession is now over. I won't pull out completely, but I won't be throwing the continual money at it like I have been. Now I just need to figure out what to do with all of my free time.










Since you are starting to dig your heels in, all I can say is, be skeptical, put most of your money into the speakers and the room, and learn to appreciate what you have.










Just out of curiosity, what sort of gear have you collected so far?


----------



## Geoff4RFC

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Well, if you read the last few posts, you'll see that I'm on the way out..... finally. The last few years have been interesting, as I got to experience first hand what the high-end has to offer and the sort of differences exist between different types of AV components, but that "investigation" turned obsession is now over. I won't pull out completely, but I won't be throwing the continual money at it like I have been. Now I just need to figure out what to do with all of my free time.










Since you are starting to dig your heels in, all I can say is, be skeptical, put most of your money into the speakers and the room, and learn to appreciate what you have.










Just out of curiosity, what sort of gear have you collected so far?
Wow, I hadn't read that, there's hope for the hopeless, man can come to his senses










"Words of wisdom Loyd", I can appreciate that after being in for a year and half - being skeptical of what manufactures and others hear-say of what a particular component can do for your system, speakers is what your sound ultimately comes from, and room acoustics will help harness the sound. Right so far?


And yes, I've been nothing but tickled with my set up and enjoying every aspect of it from the beginning.


Thanks for asking, original set up, LG42" LCD, LG370 bluray player, Onkyo TX-NR870 and Onkyo SKS-HT870 7.1 with an additional Energy sub from the Classic take 5 series.


Upgrades; LG50" plasma, LG390 bluray player, PolkAudio Monitor's 70, 40, 30 and matching CS2.


This tax return, in addition to prioritizing bill paying, the boss, I mean wifey gives the ok for one toy. I had been considering an Emotiva XPA-3 for my front three, but after careful consideration, I've decided to upgrade my subs and run a single Epik Empire.


What else you can advise?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Geoff4RFC* /forum/post/19846010
> 
> 
> Wow, I hadn't read that, there's hope for the hopeless, man can come to his senses














> Quote:
> "Words of wisdom Loyd", I can appreciate that after being in for a year and half - being skeptical of what manufactures and others hear-say of what a particular component can do for your system, speakers is what your sound ultimately comes from, and room acoustics will help harness the sound. Right so far?



It's not so much that the speakers are the last point in the chain or because they are responsible for producing the sound we hear, the quality of the speakers is important because they are mechanical devices. Those buzzing cones and domes need to play every frequency from 20 cycles to 20,000 cycles with equal amplitude and imperceptible distortion in every direction. In motorcycle terms







, it would be like having equal power and equal torque for all revs. The room is important because it has the potential to distort the sound to a much greater degree than just about anything you feed into it. Placing speakers into an untreated room is like taking the image from a high-def projector, shining it onto a brick wall and expecting an excellent picture. Not likely.



> Quote:
> And yes, I've been nothing but tickled with my set up and enjoying every aspect of it from the beginning.



That's great. Stop now.











> Quote:
> Thanks for asking, original set up, LG42" LCD, LG370 bluray player, Onkyo TX-NR870 and Onkyo SKS-HT870 7.1 with an additional Energy sub from the Classic take 5 series.
> 
> 
> Upgrades; LG50" plasma, LG390 bluray player, PolkAudio Monitor's 70, 40, 30 and matching CS2.





> Quote:
> This tax return, in addition to prioritizing bill paying, the boss, I mean wifey gives the ok for one toy. I had been considering an Emotiva XPA-3 for my front three, but after careful consideration, I've decided to upgrade my subs and run a single Epik Empire.
> 
> 
> What else you can advise?



That's a beefy AVR you have. I think you made the right choice by going with the sub upgrade. I think there would have been questionable gain from the new amp, but you'll definitely hear the improvement by going from a Energy Take series sub to the Epik.


----------



## Geoff4RFC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19846925
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not so much that the speakers are the last point in the chain or because they are responsible for producing the sound we hear, the quality of the speakers is important because they are mechanical devices. Those buzzing cones and domes need to play every frequency from 20 cycles to 20,000 cycles with equal amplitude and imperceptible distortion in every direction. In motorcycle terms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , it would be like having equal power and equal torque for all revs. The room is important because it has the potential to distort the sound to a much greater degree than just about anything you feed into it. Placing speakers into an untreated room is like taking the image from a high-def projector, shining it onto a brick wall and expecting an excellent picture. Not likely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's great. Stop now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a beefy AVR you have. I think you made the right choice by going with the sub upgrade. I think there would have been questionable gain from the new amp, but you'll definitely hear the improvement by going from a Energy Take series sub to the Epik.



Right on Tim, thanks for all the positive information. Being a total newby, I have tons of education waiting for me.


As a racer, having huge amounts of horse power is one thing, being able to put it to the ground and have it manageable is another. In racing, the rule is to work on the suspension to improve handling before increasing horsepower, it would make since the same rule applies in H.T., work on improving the sound before pumping up the power.


Thanks for looking in, I appreciate all the experienced input I can get.


----------



## hifisponge

Hey Geoff -

*HT audio priorities (as I see it):*

Recording / soundtrack quality

Speakers

Room

Placement

Calibration / proper set-up / EQ

Processor

Amp

source / player

cables


----------



## weird 23

Speaking of enjoying what you have, you should watch the Pacific HiFi. One of the best soundtracks I've heard in awhile, the use of the surround speakers in the battle scene's is fantastic. Which soundtrack has impressed you the most since your new speakers were installed?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19848547
> 
> 
> Speaking of enjoying what you have, you should watch the Pacific HiFi. One of the best soundtracks I've heard in awhile, the use of the surround speakers in the battle scene's is fantastic. Which soundtrack has impressed you the most since your new speakers were installed?



Cool, I'll check that out.


The coolest thing I've heard recently wasn't a movie soundtrack, it was music in 5.1 surround. I had a friend over to listen to the WBs last Thursday. Both he and I have been into electronic music for a while, so he brought over the surround version of Goldfrapp's "Supernature", among others. We turned off the lights completely, turned up the volume to -6 from reference (loud), and let er rip. It was amazing. I felt like I was immersed in some sort of trippy cosmic soup.










Then we were playing around with different surround modes (DPL2 vs. DTS Neo6 vs. stereo) while flipping though music on my music server and with the Denon in DPL2 mode we stumbled across a track by "Alex Smoke" (another electronic music artist). Wow! The bass line in this song was insane! The whole room was throbbing.










I want to watch Sherlock Holmes again though. My wife and I watched that one in 3.1 (B&W's) and it was very impressive even without the surround channels.


----------



## weird 23

I have a question for you if you don't mind HiFi. I'm replacing my receiver with a Marantz AV7005 and am wondering about the matching amps. Do think it makes a big difference that the Marantz power amps are rated with only two channels driven vs all channels driven? Most power amps are rated with all channels driven if I'm not mistaken. I like to listen to my Paradigm Studio 100's full range for two channel and like to drive them hard once and awhile. Right now I've got five Emotiva UPA-1 monoblocks but would like everything to match if possible. I still have a couple of weeks left in the thirty day trial and hope the processor arrives before it's up, Marantz Canada is very slow at filling orders. Any thoughts?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19848684
> 
> 
> I have a question for you if you don't mind HiFi. I'm replacing my receiver with a Marantz AV7005 and am wondering about the matching amps. Do think it makes a big difference that the Marantz power amps are rated with only two channels driven vs all channels driven? Most power amps are rated with all channels driven if I'm not mistaken. I like to listen to my Paradigm Studio 100's full range for two channel and like to drive them hard once and awhile. Right now I've got five Emotiva UPA-1 monoblocks but would like everything to match if possible. I still have a couple of weeks left in the thirty day trial and hope the processor arrives before it's up, Marantz Canada is very slow at filling orders. Any thoughts?



Hard to say. I think it could get the job done, but the MM7005 is a bit lightweight for a multichannel A/B amp. HT Mag tested the MM8005 amp and it output 100 WPC with all channels driven, which is 40 WPC lower than the stated spec, so the MM7005 is probably going to top out at 80 WPC all channels driven. How far away do you sit from your speakers?


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19848789
> 
> 
> Hard to say. I think it could get the job done, but the MM7005 is a bit lightweight for a multichannel A/B amp. HT Mag tested the MM8005 amp and it output 100 WPC with all channels driven, which is 40 WPC lower than the stated spec, so the MM7005 is probably going to top out at 80 WPC all channels driven. How far away do you sit from your speakers?



12 ft. Like you this is the last kick at the can for awhile and I like everything to match but I would also like the best performance. I'd like to get some room treatments next and then move on to something else for awhile. We'll be taking similar paths as a sports car is next on my list. It looks like Marantz just takes a receiver amp and puts it in it's own box, Integra seems to do the same thing. So far the Emotiva's are getting the job done well enough, they don't seem to change the sonic signature very much. The pre-amp seems to have more of an effect on that.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19848845
> 
> 
> 12 ft. Like you this is the last kick at the can for awhile and I like everything to match but I would also like the best performance. I'd like to get some room treatments next and then move on to something else for awhile. We'll be taking similar paths as a sports car is next on my list. It looks like Marantz just takes a receiver amp and puts it in it's own box, Integra seems to do the same thing. So far the Emotiva's are getting the job done well enough, they don't seem to change the sonic signature very much. The pre-amp seems to have more of an effect on that.



I can appreciate your interest in keeping everything matching. I'm not much for the eclectic system look either.


So here are some numbers and info that should help ya:


Assuming that the MM7055 amp uses a shared power supply, you are going to get higher wattage output when running in 2CH than multi channel, which is a good thing since your interest is in having the most power when running the Studio 100s full range. I'm sure that Marantz can hit their 140 watt spec in stereo. Based on the Studio 100's sensitivity and the distance you sit from them, *in stereo you can hit 96 dB with 106 dB peaks at your listening seat with 140 watts*. That's pretty damn loud.


With five channels driven, I suspect that the MM7055 will put out roughly 80 watts (because it uses a common power supply that must now feed 5 channels not just 2). *With five speakers all rated at 90dB sensitivity, you can hit 107dB peaks with 80 watts.* It takes less power to hit these levels because each time you add a speaker to the system it takes less power to each of them to hit the same dB level. However, this is based on equal power being sent to all channels, which rarely happens. Often times more power is needed in the front three channels than the rears during dynamic movie passages. But the advantage of the common power supply is that when less power is needed for the rears, there is more power available for the fronts. For instance if the rears only need 40 watts at a given moment, the available power to the front speakers should be around 100 watts. 100 watts is enough power for most people most of the time.


If you want to be conservative though, and ensure that you front speakers always have the full available power, buy the MM7025 stereo amp for the front pair and the MM7055 for the center and surrounds.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19829107
> 
> 
> Porsche performance upgrades and parts are actually affordable compared to much of high end AV, AND.... the gains are much more concrete. Just as an example, for $1200 in parts and $600 in labor, I can upgrade the suspension to a firmer, more responsive and visibly lower ride. Sport exhaust is under $500. Those two things alone would undeniably improve the driving experience. You could spend that much and easily more on a high-end disc player or DAC and get questionable results at best



funny, I'm an active "gear-head". I follow much of the popular major-league auto racing series (ie. F1, ALMS, NASCAR). I've spent a number of years playing around with my modified Honda cars (which are very popular here in Southern Calif- the "Fast & Furious" rice-burner capital).


I owned two brand-new Acura Integra's (over like a 17 year period), these were the coolest, fun, little fast cars ever. And the after-market accessory variety was infinite and mostly cheap or moderate in cost. Intakes, headers, exhaust's, cam-gears, shocks, springs, sway-bars, rims, tires, computer chips, it's endless. Always something new to buy or have. And price-to-performance is/was fairly cheap depending how deep one chooses to modify or "tweak". It's a lot of fun.


But after years of driving around as a "marked-man" in my cool-sounding, low, Integra's I've moved onto a new [stock] Cooper Mini-S and have been so happy and relieved when I drive pass a cop or highway patrol. I used to get [kids] on the freeway's and major boulevards wanting to race me all the time. Are you kidding me?










Also, when the weather (rain) get's bad here in Socal the potholes are life-threatening (to my rims, headers, etc.,...). I've had many mishaps- bent rims, dented/ruined (stainless) headers, etc.,...Always having to have something replaced or fixed.


My Integra's were "racey" but subtle, they had a clean "stock" look to them. The mods were all done in taste. The power gains were noticeable. I kinda wish I held onto one to use in SCCA events. I guess a moderately modified Porsche RS would be nice to have in my garage under a cover, to pull out and drive for fun on weekends, or trips up to Laguna Seca










I'm happy to now "settle" into home theater/audio, it's very engaging in a different way. However the performance cost's [are] rediculous when comparing to auto mod's, this dicotomy really bothers me at times.


----------



## hifisponge

WCD - Exterrior pics of the Acuras or it didn't happen.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19850847
> 
> 
> I can appreciate your interest in keeping everything matching. I'm not much for the eclectic system look either.
> 
> 
> So here are some numbers and info that should help ya:
> 
> 
> Assuming that the MM7055 amp uses a shared power supply, you are going to get higher wattage output when running in 2CH than multi channel, which is a good thing since your interest is in having the most power when running the Studio 100s full range. I'm sure that Marantz can hit their 140 watt spec in stereo. Based on the Studio 100's sensitivity and the distance you sit from them, *in stereo you can hit 96 dB with 106 dB peaks at your listening seat with 140 watts*. That's pretty damn loud.
> 
> 
> With five channels driven, I suspect that the MM7055 will put out roughly 80 watts (because it uses a common power supply that must now feed 5 channels not just 2). *With five speakers all rated at 90dB sensitivity, you can hit 107dB peaks with 80 watts.* It takes less power to hit these levels because each time you add a speaker to the system it takes less power to each of them to hit the same dB level. However, this is based on equal power being sent to all channels, which rarely happens. Often times more power is needed in the front three channels than the rears during dynamic movie passages. But the advantage of the common power supply is that when less power is needed for the rears, there is more power available for the fronts. For instance if the rears only need 40 watts at a given moment, the available power to the front speakers should be around 100 watts. 100 watts is enough power for most people most of the time.
> 
> 
> If you want to be conservative though, and ensure that you front speakers always have the full available power, buy the MM7025 stereo amp for the front pair and the MM7055 for the center and surrounds.



I think I'll order the MM7025 and compare it to the Emotiva's running my speakers full range. If it doesn't compare in performance then it should be fine running my Studio 20's in my two channel system. The MM 8003 is still available though, which would you go with the newer amp combo or the older amp? Price wise they're all close enough that cost is not a factor. The thing that's frustrating is no dealers have either model available for me to listen to in my city.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19853268
> 
> 
> I think I'll order the MM7025 and compare it to the Emotiva's running my speakers full range. If it doesn't compare in performance then it should be fine running my Studio 20's in my two channel system. The MM 8003 is still available though, which would you go with the newer amp combo or the older amp? Price wise they're all close enough that cost is not a factor. The thing that's frustrating is no dealers have either model available for me to listen to in my city.



Good call on buying the amp for the comparison. Let us all know how that pans out.


If you are going to use the 7025 for the fronts, then you could get away with the 7055 for the rest of the channels. If you are only going to use a single 5 channel amp for everything, go with the 8003 amp. It is heavier than the 7055, so it is going to have a beefier power supply. Or if money is not an issue, get the 7025 for the L/R and the 8003 for the rest.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19853566
> 
> 
> Good call on buying the amp for the comparison. Let us all know how that pans out.
> 
> 
> If you are going to use the 7025 for the fronts, then you could get away with the 7055 for the rest of the channels. If you are only going to use a single 5 channel amp for everything, go with the 8003 amp. It is heavier than the 7055, so it is going to have a beefier power supply. Or if money is not an issue, get the 7025 for the L/R and the 8003 for the rest.



I'll order the 7025 tomorrow, I just hope it arrives before the trial period on the Emo's is up, Marantz Canada isn't exactly quick at filling orders in my experience. I've got two weeks, so hopefully that will be enough time. I'm running seven channels so I would go with two amps but I'll start with one and see how it goes. I've found that your one of the few people who understands my want for things to match, thanks for the advice.


----------



## Geoff4RFC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19848542
> 
> 
> Hey Geoff -
> 
> *HT audio priorities (as I see it):*
> 
> Recording / soundtrack quality
> 
> Speakers
> 
> Room
> 
> Placement
> 
> Calibration / proper set-up / EQ
> 
> Processor
> 
> Amp
> 
> source / player
> 
> cables



Thanks Tim, sounds like a solid order to me.


Catch you again sometime


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19852196
> 
> 
> WCD - Exterrior pics of the Acuras or it didn't happen



a few odd shots...........


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19853906
> 
> 
> I'll order the 7025 tomorrow, I just hope it arrives before the trial period on the Emo's is up, Marantz Canada isn't exactly quick at filling orders in my experience. I've got two weeks, so hopefully that will be enough time. I'm running seven channels so I would go with two amps but I'll start with one and see how it goes. I've found that your one of the few people who understands my want for things to match, thanks for the advice.



Good luck.


This sure was a pretty set, eh?











Silly me for selling it off.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/19854618
> 
> 
> a few odd shots...........



That is pretty tame considering how far you can take the tuner look. So give me some specs. What sort of performance did you start with and what did you end up with?


What is the advantage of the two large exposed red cam sprockets?


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19854773
> 
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> 
> This sure was a pretty set, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Silly me for selling it off.



You'll always have the pictures HiFi.







Soon you'll be thinking this sounds just as good as that system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYwO_...1&feature=fvwp


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19855143
> 
> 
> You'll always have the pictures HiFi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soon you'll be thinking this sounds just as good as that system.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYwO_...1&feature=fvwp



That exhaust note is music to my ears.










Just watched How to Train Your Dragon. Charming movie with a great surround score.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19854793
> 
> 
> That is pretty tame considering how far you can take the tuner look. So give me some specs. What sort of performance did you start with and what did you end up with?



you're somewhat correct, my mods were on the "tamer" side of radical. I purposely kept things more street-clean, driveable, and not over-stress the motor.


Factory power rating specs for the 1.8L Honda (B18B) engine used in the 1996 Acura Integra LS was listed @142 hp. I had my car dyno-tuned without any mods, it outputted 135hp (measured at the wheels) which is decent.


After installation of performance intake, stainless racing headers, (illegal) stainless hi-flow catalytic converter, racing exhaust system and adjustable cam-gears it was re-dyno-tuned at 164hp (measured at wheels), approx 30hp gain.


Moreover I installed H&R coil-over shocks/struts/springs, front strut-tower stress bar, stiffer front sway bar and VolkRacing alloy wheels.


The complete package totally changed the character of the car. It had very noticeably more "punch", improved low-end torque. I could easily spin the front wheels at take-off. The ride was moderately lower and stiffer, but smooth. The strut tower bar really makes a huge difference, roll was minimized. Steering was much more sensitive. It cornered much more stable, like on rails. Mileage was still pretty good as well. The exhaust had a nice deep roar to it. My friends and neighbors used to tease me that they could always hear me coming home from a few blocks away (but so could the police). A very fun car to drive, and reliable all around (trips, etc.,...).


While driving to Vegas maybe 6 years back I got this car over 130mph and sustained it for a few miles, it was fairly stable, and the engine wanted more (was still far from red-line).


Also, you have to realize, this Honda utilized an automatic ("sport-matic") transmission as I use hand-controls to drive (being I'm paralyzed and use a wheelchair). The guys at the various shops thought that was cool.


I avoided screwing with my computer, or turbo-charging, or high-current ignition systems, etc.,...You just get into trouble, and can over-stress and screw things up. This was my main mode of transportation







I've seen comparable B18B motors turbo-charged (plus all other mods listed above) dyno-tuned @300hp! They were also using racing fuel (110 octane), crazy.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19854793
> 
> 
> What is the advantage of the two large exposed red cam sprockets?



bottom-line, cam-gears allow for largest HP gain (next to turbo-charging). Adjustable cam gears allow for radical advancement, or retarding, of cam-shaft timing. You can use these cam gears alone (on stock cam shaft), or along with installtion of a racing cam-shaft. Thing is, when you go to this extent, you want to have a very experienced mechanic who has much history with racing engines and related equipment. This installation process is usually performed along-side while dyno-tuning. There are a number of shops in Socal that are equipped in this manner.

http://www.aemelectronics.com/tru-ti...e-cam-gears-1/ 
http://www.dcsports.com/421headers2acura.html 
http://www.dcsports.com/singlecanisteracura.html 
http://www.greddy.com/products/exhausts/ti-c/ 
http://www.hrsprings.com/products/coil-overs/ 
http://import.neuspeed.com/207/0/0/1...t-tie-bar.html 


I notice a lot of whitish dirt in my engine compartment as well as on under-chassis area, I drove through a construction zone, un-mixed concrete powder everywhere







Also, if you notice, the cam gears are exposed as the stock Honda valve cover was machined on the side, this allows for easy cam gear adjustments. Otherwise you have to remove the valve cover every time you make an adjustment.


This Integra was 14 years old at this point in time, original paint. I modified suspension and engine maybe two months after purchasing brand-new from dealer. These cars became so popular over the years in local culture that they became targets for trouble- ie. thefts, getting tickets, pulled-over, etc.,...


----------



## hifisponge

Very cool. Thanks for going over some of the details. While the Porsche is "relatively" inexpensive to maintain and upgrade (within reason), I bet there is a sense of freedom with tuning the Acura you had that won't ever be there with the Porsche. Easier to tinker with things and try different options. Doing this with the Porsche would add up quickly.


A pleasure as always speaking with you.


----------



## Waboman

Hey hifi,


Beautiful rack, man!










The Classe stuff is gorgeous. Do I see a PPP hiding in there? Yes I do. Nice.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/19855368
> 
> 
> Hey hifi,
> 
> 
> Beautiful rack, man!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Classe stuff is gorgeous. Do I see a PPP hiding in there? Yes I do. Nice.



Thanks Waboman. You just had to rub it in didn't you.


It was my pièce de résistance.


Here's to new experiences.










Cheers!


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19855336
> 
> 
> While the Porsche is "relatively" inexpensive to maintain and upgrade (within reason), I bet there is a sense of freedom with tuning the Acura you had that won't ever be there with the Porsche. Easier to tinker with things and try different options. Doing this with the Porsche would add up quickly



you're right on point here- the quality, price and design of the Acura/Honda cars are perfect for tuning and all-around fun. And the after-market parts and accessories is so vast and competitive prices are very good. They are easy to work on and tweak. While I usually had my Integra serviced at the dealer regularly I would replace most components with better after-market items (shocks, springs, radiator, etc.,...) usually at cheaper prices.


The Integra's and RSX's are very good cars to build for SCCA racing. I've been to a few events in the past (as a spectator) while at Laguna Seca and saw quite a few of these cars equipped with essentially many of the same parts. One particular owner/driver was a doctor, his car was beautifully prepared, he'd done all the work himself (if I find the picture of his car I'll post it).


But, to be honest, I've probably enjoyed my new (stock) Cooper Mini-S more. These cars are a little more refined than the Honda cars, a few notches better all the way around when comparing design, performance and price.


Of course if I were making "TV" money I'd probably have a modified Porsche in the garage. Actually there's really no need to modifiy a Porsche, they are already race-cars from the factory







I've seen some of the best Porsche's run on the track over the years (I'm talking LeMans type cars).


You should get the video "Truth In 24", documentary footage about 2008 LeMans race, mostly reflecting the drama between the AudiSport team against the french Peugeot team, it's very cool. A few Porsche's in there too:
http://www.audi-collection.com/Acces...ruth-in-24-DVD


----------



## hifisponge

WCD - Your are wealth of automotive knowledge and history. I'll check out that video.










Good point on the Porsche performance. No real need to go crazy on mods, since the thing already has 300HP stock and it corners like no other car I've owned. They are very unique and special cars. Don't drive one unless you plan to buy.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19859137
> 
> 
> Good point on the Porsche performance. No real need to go crazy on mods, since the thing already has 300HP stock and it corners like no other car I've owned. They are very unique and special cars



they [are] unique and special cars.


I would probably make suspension tweaks- different shocks (adjustable coil-over type) and springs (H&R), and maybe sway-bars. I guess it would'nt hurt to upgrade intake and exhaust system. Important thing is havng a good shop install things thoroughly. Have fun


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* 
they [are] unique and special cars.


I would probably make suspension tweaks- different shocks (adjustable coil-over type) and springs (H&R), and maybe sway-bars. I guess it would'nt hurt to upgrade intake and exhaust system. Important thing is havng a good shop install things thoroughly. Have fun
Yes, those are all doable, and already on my list of future upgrades.


----------



## chjo100

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Yes, those are all doable, and already on my list of future upgrades.








Here we go again!







Once you finish tweaking and you maximize the Porsche performance capabilities, I don't want to see that you sell it to see if you can get the same performance from a Honda civic. I'm kidding of course... Sounds like a fun new journey you're on.


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *chjo100* 
Here we go again!







Once you finish tweaking and you maximize the Porsche performance capabilities, I don't want to see that you sell it to see if you can get the same performance from a Honda civic. I'm kidding of course... Sounds like a fun new journey you're on.
Touché.


----------



## hifisponge

So it seems that the new shiny box from Lexicon to replace the aging MC12HD processor is going to cost $15K!


Flargh!



Up til now, the rumours were that the days of $15K processors were over because of the increasing number of lower-cost prepros on the market. I was hoping Lexicon would at least look to the likes of the Classe SSP-800, which is $9K fully loaded, as the current high-water mark and price their new prepro competetively with it. $9K is already insane, but $15K, even with a discount, puts it out of the running for me for a while.


It's alright I suppose. The Denon AVR-5308 I'm using now really does hit well above it's weight class in terms of sound quality, so I can hold off for a while until the new Lex ends up on Audiogon.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19855377
> 
> 
> Thanks Waboman. You just had to rub it in didn't you.
> 
> 
> It was my pièce de résistance.
> 
> 
> Here's to new experiences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers!



Whassup, hifi?


Lol. That sure was a classe rack.










Now I gotta ask, what were you thinking getting rid of it for a receiver? Not that there's anything wrong with that.










So the new Lex will be $15k? Ouch. That's a lot o' coinage.


Indeed, here's to new experiences. *clink*


----------



## hifisponge

Wassss.... uuuuuup......blaaaaah...haaa!!











Truth is, I was fed up with the all of the bugs and hardware problems I had with the Classe and I was going to pull my hat out of the high-end audio ring altogether. I have no regrets sound quality-wise with the Denon, but I sure do miss how purdy the Classe stack was. As long as I keep the AV cabinet closed, all is good.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19874315
> 
> 
> Wassss.... uuuuuup......blaaaaah...haaa!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truth is, I was fed up with the all of the bugs and hardware problems I had with the Classe and I was going to pull my hat out of the high-end audio ring altogether. I have no regrets sound quality-wise with the Denon, but I sure do miss how purdy the Classe stack was. As long as I keep the AV cabinet closed, all is good.



Yo, what it is, hifi?


Ah, yes, bug and hardware problems will drive you nuts. I didn't realize the Classe was so buggy. It sure is nice to turn on your HT and have everything work like it's supposed to. Haha, yes, just keep the AV cabinet doors closed (until your new $15k Lex arrives







) and it's all good, my friend.










How's the new car treating you?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/19877513
> 
> 
> Yo, what it is, hifi?
> 
> 
> Ah, yes, bug and hardware problems will drive you nuts. I didn't realize the Classe was so buggy. It sure is nice to turn on your HT and have everything work like it's supposed to. Haha, yes, just keep the AV cabinet doors closed (until your new $15k Lex arrives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) and it's all good, my friend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How's the new car treating you?



What it be Waboman?










Could be a while on the Lex, but I just watched Despicable Me and was thoroughly impressed with the performance of my system. A really endearing and hilarious movie with a great sound track.


----------



## mjpearce023

Wow Tim. You have quite a list of some of my dream gear. I just read the first page of your thread and it was very interesting. It made me feel good when I saw you had the 805 diamonds sitting on the same VTI speaker stands I have. I took the VTI sticker off too and it does look alot better that way. Well, just wanted to say love the system and all the variations of it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mjpearce023* /forum/post/19905726
> 
> 
> Wow Tim. You have quite a list of some of my dream gear. I just read the first page of your thread and it was very interesting. It made me feel good when I saw you had the 805 diamonds sitting on the same VTI speaker stands I have. I took the VTI sticker off too and it does look alot better that way. Well, just wanted to say love the system and all the variations of it.



Hey MJ -


Thanks for stopping in.










Yeah, I went a little nutty over the past few years, but I wanted to know first hand what the "best of the best" had to offer. The way I see it, at least I helped a few people out there get their dream speakers at a reasonable price (since everything you see on the front page was sold at 50% off to their new owners.) Just my way of giving back to the community...... or feeding the disease, depending on how you look at it.










Those stands are actually B&W's matching stands, that VTI copied. I would have gone with the VTIs because they are much less expensive (and probably sourced from the same manufacturer), but the B&W version has a top plate that is a perfect match for the bottom of the 805's.


Good choice on your Paradigms. Revel and Vivid Audio should be on your short list of upgrades if you decide to move up the food chain. Then again, the Paradigm Signatures will probably get you most of the way there at a fraction of the price.


----------



## mjpearce023




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19906015
> 
> 
> Hey MJ -
> 
> 
> Thanks for stopping in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I went a little nutty over the past few years, but I wanted to know first hand what the "best of the best" had to offer. The way I see it, at least I helped a few people out there get their dream speakers at a reasonable price (since everything you see on the front page was sold at 50% off to their new owners.) Just my way of giving back to the community...... or feeding the disease, depending on how you look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those stands are actually B&W's matching stands, that VTI copied. I would have gone with the VTIs because they are much less expensive (and probably sourced from the same manufacturer), but the B&W version has a top plate that is a perfect match for the bottom of the 805's.
> 
> 
> Good choice on your Paradigms. Revel and Vivid Audio should be on your short list of upgrades if you decide to move up the food chain. Then again, the Paradigm Signatures will probably get you most of the way there at a fraction of the price.



Yea its a disease for me. I didn't have the paradigm monitors for 6 months before I upgraged to studios. I will probably look at the Sigs in the future but its not in the budget anytime soon. Those stands tricked me for sure. They do match perfect with the diamonds so I guess it makes since that B&W invented them.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mjpearce023* /forum/post/19906558
> 
> 
> Yea its a disease for me. I didn't have the paradigm monitors for 6 months before I upgraged to studios. I will probably look at the Sigs in the future but its not in the budget anytime soon. Those stands tricked me for sure. They do match perfect with the diamonds so I guess it makes since that B&W invented them.



There will always be something better out there, or at least what seems to be better, so enjoy what you have for a while and at least stretch out the "upgrades" enough to get good use out of what you currently own. In other words, do as I say and not as I do.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19878077
> 
> 
> What it be Waboman?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could be a while on the Lex, but I just watched Despicable Me and was thoroughly impressed with the performance of my system. A really endearing and hilarious movie with a great sound track.



Whassup hifi?


Thanks for the remote help, amigo.







We really enjoyed Despicable Me too. Vector rocks! What's the over/under on the hifi Lex acquisition?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/19906955
> 
> 
> Whassup hifi?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the remote help, amigo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We really enjoyed Despicable Me too. Vector rocks! What's the over/under on the hifi Lex acquisition?



The Lexicon.... hmmm, well, it is supposed to clock in around $15K, which is too rich for my blood at the moment, and... I'm taking a break for a while on this hobby so I have money for other things of interest, like food and clothing. Kraft mac-n-cheese, jeans and a T-shirt aren't cuttin' it any more.










Good luck on the remote programing. I'm sure you can find a way to make it work for your old-skool needs?


----------



## alma321

Just stumbled upon this thread and all I have to say is wow, just wow. I recently listened to my first 96/24 song from HDTracks using my first pair of real speakers (DefTech STSs) and was blown away with how crystal clear it sounded. It was like when I first saw Batman Dark Night running an a Pioneer 151 Elite and was blown away so much I had to purchase the 151 for myself. Never new audio could sound so good and finally understand why individuals spend so much on their systems. I cant even imagine how your setup must sound!


----------



## hifisponge

alma321 -


Welcome to your future. Once you start down this path, it is very hard to escape the grip of .....


upgradeitis!


Beware!


Just kidding.










Def Tech is making some very good speakers these days. I hope they bring a smile to your face for a while.


Some of the AVS guys in the Seattle area get together once in a while. I'm not sure when the next meeting will be, but PM me if you are interested.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19907042
> 
> 
> The Lexicon.... hmmm, well, it is supposed to clock in around $15K, which is too rich for my blood at the moment, and... I'm taking a break for a while on this hobby so I have money for other things of interest, like food and clothing. Kraft mac-n-cheese, jeans and a T-shirt aren't cuttin' it any more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck on the remote programing. I'm sure you can find a way to make it work for your old-skool needs?



Prioritizing your money for food and clothes? Who are you and what have you done with Tim?


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alma321* /forum/post/19911441
> 
> 
> Just stumbled upon this thread and all I have to say is wow, just wow. I recently listened to my first 96/24 song from HDTracks using my first pair of real speakers (DefTech STSs) and was blown away with how crystal clear it sounded. It was like when I first saw Batman Dark Night running an a Pioneer 151 Elite and was blown away so much I had to purchase the 151 for myself. Never new audio could sound so good and finally understand why individuals spend so much on their systems. I cant even imagine how your setup must sound!



Great speakers! I once had Two Def Tech ST up front, the Mythos Ten for Center and a pair of STS for rear. Really, the STS and ST were identical to these ears and some of my fondest memories were that HT setup. I remember watching Sunshine (with Cillian Murphy) on the all def tech setup and being totally enthralled in the movie. I would say, just enjoy the setup you have and not worry about upgrading too fast. Sometimes that magic you experience starts to fade even while you get more impressive resolution, when you change out gear too often. I've been guilty of that and only reminded now as I look back fondly at the all Def Tech system I enjoyed.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19911822
> 
> 
> Great speakers! I once had Two Def Tech ST up front, the Mythos Ten for Center and a pair of STS for rear. Really, the STS and ST were identical to these ears and some of my fondest memories were that HT setup. I remember watching Sunshine (with Cillian Murphy) on the all def tech setup and being totally enthralled in the movie. *I would say, just enjoy the setup you have and not worry about upgrading too fast. Sometimes that magic you experience starts to fade even while you get more impressive resolution, when you change out gear too often.* I've been guilty of that and only reminded now as I look back fondly at the all Def Tech system I enjoyed.



Truer words have never been spoken. Take it from SAGE chjo. He knows of which he speakers, um speaks.


----------



## alma321




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/19911822
> 
> 
> Great speakers! I once had Two Def Tech ST up front, the Mythos Ten for Center and a pair of STS for rear. Really, the STS and ST were identical to these ears and some of my fondest memories were that HT setup. I remember watching Sunshine (with Cillian Murphy) on the all def tech setup and being totally enthralled in the movie. I would say, just enjoy the setup you have and not worry about upgrading too fast. Sometimes that magic you experience starts to fade even while you get more impressive resolution, when you change out gear too often. I've been guilty of that and only reminded now as I look back fondly at the all Def Tech system I enjoyed.



I actually was looking at the STs but somehow they seemed to overpower the Pioneer 151. Meaning the STs looked to big next to the TV so went with the STSs. They got the wife approval as well. Just got some bipole/dipole surrounds from Emotiva and yet to get a center channel. I remember first seeing Sunshine on an older 1081i capable TV. Rented it again to watch it in all its awesome BluRay goodness, and yet again when I got my speakers! Great movie, ending was lacking though in my opinion. Im curious, what speakers are you running now? hifisponge, responding to your PM now.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19911539
> 
> 
> alma321 -
> 
> 
> Welcome to your future. Once you start down this path, it is very hard to escape the grip of .....
> 
> 
> upgradeitis!
> 
> 
> Beware!
> 
> 
> Just kidding.



No you're not!


----------



## weird 23

What's up Hifi? How are things with you? It's been rather quite around these parts lately, I hope that's because your enjoying your new speakers.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/19981433
> 
> 
> What's up Hifi? How are things with you? It's been rather quite around these parts lately, I hope that's because your enjoying your new speakers.



It's 'cause he's enjoying his Porsche!


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *weird 23* 
What's up Hifi? How are things with you? It's been rather quite around these parts lately, I hope that's because your enjoying your new speakers.
Quote:

Originally Posted by *7ryder* 
It's 'cause he's enjoying his Porsche!
Doin' a bit of both.










But yeah, this thread is pretty much on its last legs, or entering hibernation for a while anyway.


I would like to say though that if I could, I would probably swap out the WB Trinity's for another set of Discovery's. The Discos had a more neutral tonal balance in my room, without the need for as much EQ to get them there. With that said, it is surprising how well the WBs respond to EQ. Even though their natural FR is more wavy than I would like, they fall into line really well with Audyssey doing its thing. Not all speakers do.


7ryder - When's the big day for the arrival of the Vivids? Damn those speakers are good. They are right at the top of my list any time I'm asked for recommendations in their price range.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19983496
> 
> 
> Doin' a bit of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7ryder - When's the big day for the arrival of the Vivids? Damn those speakers are good. They are right at the top of my list any time I'm asked for recommendations in their price range.



2/24 or 2/25.


----------



## roadster-s

I see some nice wheels here, so thought I would share my own. BMW ALPINA Roadster S. From a global production of 300 cars, this is the only one on North American soil:


----------



## hifisponge

Nice! Are those wheels stock?


We just picked this up for my wife yesterday.


----------



## roadster-s

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Nice! Are those wheels stock?
Yes, the wheels are the original Alpina Dynamics that I had refinished.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roadster-s* /forum/post/19998545
> 
> 
> Yes, the wheels are the original Alpina Dynamics that I had refinished.



I see. I haven't heard of the Alpina Dynamics special edition before. Is this like the BMW equivalent of an AMG sort of performance package? What does this special edition include in the way of performance and options?


----------



## roadster-s




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20000437
> 
> 
> I see. I haven't heard of the Alpina Dynamics special edition before. Is this like the BMW equivalent of an AMG sort of performance package? What does this special edition include in the way of performance and options?



(Dynamic is actually the wheel type it's called). Alpina is a German registered manufacturer who upgrades factory new BMW cars, modifying engine, transmission and interior. Best to look here to learn about them. http://www.alpina-automobiles.com/en...ilestones.html


----------



## WestCoastD

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Up til now, the rumours were that the days of $15K processors were over because of the increasing number of lower-cost prepros on the market
I think the market share in this area has shifted though. There seems to be a growing range of $1500.00 to $2000.00 pre-pro's on the market, some of which kick-ass on the higher-end brand products. I just got the Marantz AV7005 ($1300.00), hearing great things from most owners, can't wait to set-up my unit. Waiting to get a new player (Oppo BDP-95, Sony SCD-XA5400ES, Marantz 7006UD, Denon DBP-2012UDCI), will configure Marantz once I have both pieces. Also may consider new Monitor Audio GX-Series.


----------



## WestCoastD

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
We just picked this up for my wife yesterday
wow, beautiful BMW! They (BMW) have these cars so refined at this point in time, they drive spectacular stock, no tweaking necessary


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/20028551
> 
> 
> I think the market share in this area has shifted though. There seems to be a growing range of $1500.00 to $2000.00 pre-pro's on the market, some of which kick-ass on the higher-end brand products. I just got the Marantz AV7005 ($1300.00), hearing great things from most owners, can't wait to set-up my unit. Waiting to get a new player (Oppo BDP-95, Sony SCD-XA5400ES, Marantz 7006UD, Denon DBP-2012UDCI), will configure Marantz once I have both pieces. Also may consider new Monitor Audio GX-Series.



Congrats on the new prepro. The ribbon tweeter in the MA Platinum speakers (now carried over to the GX line) provides phenomenal detail, and hopefully the GXs will do away with the squawky mids of the Platinums.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/20028578
> 
> 
> wow, beautiful BMW! They (BMW) have these cars so refined at this point in time, they drive spectacular stock, no tweaking necessary



True. If you want more performance, simply move up to the 335 or the M3. No need to go the tuner route, which takes the fun out if it I suppose.


----------



## CorboDuze

21.02.11


The Show has been selected as the UK Launch venue for two models from the Geometry Series.


The Geometry Collection is a ground up development that sees the introduction of a raft of new technologies. The starting point for this collection was the archetypal Odyssey Series that remains unchanged. The design goal: To provide the most advanced technologies and the highest performance within its class. Acoustic objectives: high efficiency, benchmark transient response capabilities and industry standard signal to noise ratio.


Craig Milnes turns into a Speaker in The Future is Carbon Presentation.


On behalf of the design team behind this development, there will be a rare opportunity to see and hear Design Director Craig Milnes making a special presentation at 12:30 on Friday and Saturday. The presentation will address some of the principal innovations in the Geometry Series, as well as providing a unique insight into a real manufacturing company that has won critical acclaim across the world for its passionate commitment to pioneering research, advanced manufacturing and introduction of aerospace materials technologies into audio design.


The Future is Carbon!


----------



## hifisponge

Whaaa?


Shows you how out of the loop I already am that I didn't even know that WB was working on a new speaker line. I knew that they had some sort of secret source player in the works, but I had no idea about the speakers.


Wonder what they will look like and what sort of new tech they will use?


----------



## ddgtr

Tim, congrats on the new BMW, it looks really nice!


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ddgtr* 
Tim, congrats on the new BMW, it looks really nice!
Hey ddgtr -


Haven't seen you in a while. Hope you are doing well. Any plans to use your tax return for something fun?


----------



## ddgtr

Thanks Tim, I'm doing all right! Haha, no tax returns for me, I'm self employed...


Yesterday I auditioned some new speakers at my house, some preliminary discussion took place in my thread. I'll post some pics and impressions later on tonight...


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20047193
> 
> 
> Thanks Tim, I'm doing all right! Haha, no tax returns for me, I'm self employed...
> 
> 
> Yesterday I auditioned some new speakers at my house, some preliminary discussion took place in my thread. I'll post some pics and impressions later on tonight...



I just took this conversation over to your place.


----------



## alma321

Even though this thread is semi dead, thought I would post and get some insight with some true audiophiles. I just received a Marantz AV 7005 (thanks for the tip hifisponge!!) hooked up to a Emotiva amp playing audio files via a Oppo 93 connected to DefTech STSs. My kind of/sort of first true audio system (before that it was a HTIB JVC system from years ago) I was a video only type of person and really did not know or understand why people spend more money on audio equip than on video gear. Well, after listening to my first 24/96 free demo via HDTracks a few weeks ago I now understand. I was wondering what everyone was/is purchasing for music? I have been buying a lot of DVD-As, SACDs, and downloading 24/96 files off the Internet. Cant believe all these years I have been missing out what really good sounding music is all about, been listening to crappy MP3s via Itunes this whole time. Any suggestions from anyone here about really good audio quality CDs/DVD-As/SACDs would be appreciated.


----------



## ddgtr

Tim,


Thanks for the REW offer!! I am working on it, you really helped with your advice on what to get. I do have a couple of questions, the folks over at the HTShack are wonderful but sometimes they can get a bit too technical if you know what I mean...


@alma:

This thread is far from being dead, on the contrary it's one of the hottest in the section...


HD Tracks is an awesome place to buy HQ recordings, I've gotten some great stuff there. What kind of music do you like?? There quite a bit of good material out there, it's hard to namei them all... Usually HDCD, XRCD in addition to DVD-A and SACD are HQ, but again, it's a matter of what you like...


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alma321* /forum/post/20048675
> 
> 
> Even though this thread is semi dead, thought I would post and get some insight with some true audiophiles. I just received a Marantz AV 7005 (thanks for the tip hifisponge!!) hooked up to a Emotiva amp playing audio files via a Oppo 93 connected to DefTech STSs. My kind of/sort of first true audio system (before that it was a HTIB JVC system from years ago) I was a video only type of person and really did not know or understand why people spend more money on audio equip than on video gear. Well, after listening to my first 24/96 free demo via HDTracks a few weeks ago I now understand. I was wondering what everyone was/is purchasing for music? I have been buying a lot of DVD-As, SACDs, and downloading 24/96 files off the Internet. Cant believe all these years I have been missing out what really good sounding music is all about, been listening to crappy MP3s via Itunes this whole time. Any suggestions from anyone here about really good audio quality CDs/DVD-As/SACDs would be appreciated.



Congrats on the new Marantz!


And welcome aboard the audio train!










I haven't bought an SACD or DVDA in years since DVDA is dead and SACD has been adopted by mainly classical lables, which is genre that I can appreciate but rarely listen to. I have to admit, that I'm completely happy with good old "CD quality" and find that the quality and care put into the recording by the producer and the engineer have a larger impact on the sound than higher sampling rates and longer word lengths. Not that there aren't some amazing hi-rez recordings out there on SACD and DVDA, there are, but I've heard CDs that I've been just as impressed with. Though the extra 10dB of dynamic range on the subwoofer channel on DVDA is pretty impressive when used on a recording (you get the same beni on the current Blu Ray lossless concert discs).


With that said, here are the hi-rez sources that I know of:

AIXrecords.com

LinnRecords.com
www.2l.no 
http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Societ...of_Sound/Music 
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/music.htm 


Discs to check out:

"Jazz Legends" bluray

"Dave Mathews Live at the Apollo" Blu Ray

"Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon" SACD surround

"Jazz at the Pawn Shop" SACD


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20048798
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> Thanks for the REW offer!! I am working on it, you really helped with your advice on what to get. I do have a couple of questions, the folks over at the HTShack are wonderful but sometimes they can get a bit too technical if you know what I mean...



Yes, I do know what you mean. If there is one gift that I have, it is the ability to bridge the gap between the engineer and the layman. I'll put it in plain speak. Promise.


----------



## hifisponge












While my AV rack may never return to the sexy tower of silver it once was, I going to up the quality and the presentation a bit, so it is less of a hodge-podge of gear. Besides, everyone knows that black is the new silver anyway, so all black it is. 










Just placed an order for the following:






































All this stuff will run me just under $3K, which while not cheap, it is less than half of what I've spent on a single piece of Classe gear in the past. So I'm not totally reformed from the AV sickness, but I'm doing better.










On the subject of Classe, while I do miss its sexiness, I have to say that I really enjoy the ease of use and reliability of the Denon 5308. And to these ears, I can't say that I'm missing much in terms of sound quality. Maybe a side-by-side comparison would make the subtle differences more apparent, but I have no complaints.


----------



## alma321

Is that a Lacie external hard drive? I was about to purchase one but decided on a different brand and manufacturer at the last minute to connect up to my Oppo 93. Let me know how it works out for you, need a 2nd one for my computer. Also, does anybody happen to have the Dark Side of the Moon in DVD-A? I have that and the SACD version, not sure I hear much of a difference but hard to compare without doing a A/B test.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20051962
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While my AV rack may never return to the sexy tower of silver it once was, I going to up the quality and the presentation a bit, so it is less of a hodge-podge of gear. Besides, everyone knows that black is the new silver anyway, so all black it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just placed an order for the following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All this stuff will run me just under $3K, which while not cheap, it is less than half of what I've spent on a single piece of Classe gear in the past. So I'm not totally reformed from the AV sickness, but I'm doing better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the subject of Classe, while I do miss its sexiness, I have to say that I really enjoy the ease of use and reliability of the Denon 5308. And to these ears, I can't say that I'm missing much in terms of sound quality. Maybe a side-by-side comparison would make the subtle differences more apparent, but I have no complaints.



Hey Tim,


Nice to see you dipping your toes back into the audiophile pool. Just curious for your reasoning for the new mac mini besides aesthetics? I know the new Mac Mini can carry audio over HDMI. Are you thinking HDMI to Denon 5308?


I too have been considering replacing my older mac mini (I say older but I think it's been only two years) but thought it would be fun to put together my own little music server pc and trying something like Jriver or Media Monkey.


I have some other questions but will just send you pm or e-mail. New stuff looks great!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20052380
> 
> 
> Hey Tim,
> 
> 
> Nice to see you dipping your toes back into the *audiophile pool*. Just curious for your reasoning for the new mac mini besides aesthetics? I know the new Mac Mini can carry audio over HDMI. Are you thinking HDMI to Denon 5308?
> 
> 
> I too have been considering replacing my older mac mini (I say older but I think it's been only two years) but thought it would be fun to put together my own little music server pc and trying something like Jriver or Media Monkey.
> 
> 
> I have some other questions but will just send you pm or e-mail. New stuff looks great!



Did you me the audiophile pool, or the adiophool pile?










The flame still smolders within..... what has it been a couple of months since I said I was calling it quits?










The aesthetics of the new Mac Mini are part of the reason to go with it for me, but it is also because of the benefits of the HDMI output, the improved video processor, the ability to configure it with 8GB of RAM (which I've done), and the brickless power supply. BTW if you do pick one o these up, buy just the base model with the 2GB of RAM and buy 8GBs of Kingston on Amazon for $95. Apple wants $600 for 8GB!?!


The DVI out on my current mini will not play nice with the Denon's on-screen display. That is, there is no OSD because apparently the Denon can't do the OSD overlay on a PC resolution. As a result, I don't run the video out of the mini any more, working solely off of the screen sharing option with my MacBook. The HDMI out will also allow me to playback multichannel and 192KHz recordings, though that brings up the issue of jitter, which is usually quite high on the HDMI output of anything. So some experimentation will take place to see if playing the same tracks via optical vs. HDMI sound better/worse/same. If need be, I'll use the HDMI for video only and the optical for sound.


This may seem almost juvenile, but I really like to have the iTunes visualizer running when listening to most of my music. It's just so damn mesmerizing! The video processor (and 2GB of RAM?) in my current mini get bogged down with this 3D-intensive eye candy.


Then there is that friggin' brick of power supply cluttering up the back of my AV cabinet. Sure no one can see it, but the thought of that untidiness back there haunts me. And I have a reputation to uphold you know.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alma321* /forum/post/20052185
> 
> 
> Is that a Lacie external hard drive? I was about to purchase one but decided on a different brand and manufacturer at the last minute to connect up to my Oppo 93. Let me know how it works out for you, need a 2nd one for my computer. Also, does anybody happen to have the Dark Side of the Moon in DVD-A? I have that and the SACD version, not sure I hear much of a difference but hard to compare without doing a A/B test.



Yes sir. That is the LaCie 2TB Quadra External Hard Drive with firewire 800 connection. This and the 8GB of RAM are probably overkill for a music server, but when overkill costs $250, why not?


My opinion is that if you feel you need an A/B comparison to determine the differences (if there are any) between the SACD and DVDA versions of DSOTM, then the differences are small enough not to matter. Bigger fish to fry, as they say.


----------



## 7ryder

Jeez, you didn't need to get a P5, if you wanted black, I would have traded you my black PPP for your silver. IMO, with the exception of some web connect features, despite what Paul M says, there really isn't any difference in performance between the PPP and the new P5 and P10 to justify upgrading from the PPP. see posts here: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/forum/viewthread/1804/


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/20056693
> 
> 
> Jeez, you didn't need to get a P5, if you wanted black, I would have traded you my black PPP for your silver. IMO, with the exception of some web connect features, despite what Paul M says, there really isn't any difference in performance between the PPP and the new P5 and P10 to justify upgrading from the PPP. see posts here: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/forum/viewthread/1804/



You're probably right Chris G but why not get the latest and greatest? I know I would be tempted to get the latest model, even if there was little audible improvement. Plus it has that nifty screen like the PWD










That P10 is a monster! I want one! It looks like its the size of an amplifier.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/20056693
> 
> 
> Jeez, you didn't need to get a P5, if you wanted black, I would have traded you my black PPP for your silver. IMO, with the exception of some web connect features, despite what Paul M says, there really isn't any difference in performance between the PPP and the new P5 and P10 to justify upgrading from the PPP. see posts here: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/forum/viewthread/1804/



I'll admit, my decision to get the P5 makes very little sense in the context of my current stack of electronics. The retail on the damn thing is as much as all of my source components combined!







But I love the new case design and that trick little touch screen.







I sold my silver PPP on Agon for just about what I paid for it, so the cost of the P5 was not that great when you include the discount I got on it.


----------



## Waboman

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge*
I'll admit, my decision to get the P5 makes very little sense in the context of my current stack of electronics. The retail on the damn thing is as much as all of my source components combined!







But I love the new case design and that trick little touch screen.







I sold my silver PPP on Agon for just about what I paid for it, so the cost of the P5 was not that great when you include the discount I got on it.
Whassup, hifi?


I admit, I'm a little outta the HT loop as I'm quite pleased with my current config. I have two PPPs (in sexy black







) that I'm happy as a clam with.







What's the benefit of a P5? Why would I want one?


My next question. It's lunch time. Kung Pao or Pad Thai?


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Waboman* 
Whassup, hifi?


I admit, I'm a little outta the HT loop as I'm quite pleased with my current config. I have two PPPs (in sexy black







) that I'm happy as a clam with.







What's the benefit of a P5? Why would I want one?


My next question. It's lunch time. Kung Pao or Pad Thai?








Yeah, the PPPs are great units and the only power product that has even made a hint of a difference to sound quality of my system(s).


I'm probably not the best person to try to upsell you on the P5. I bought it because it is new and cool looking and sexy black.







You could say I'm bringin' sexy black.










As for lunch, both sound good.


----------



## 7ryder

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
I'll admit, my decision to get the P5 makes very little sense in the context of my current stack of electronics. The retail on the damn thing is as much as all of my source components combined!







But I love the new case design and that trick little touch screen.







I sold my silver PPP on Agon for just about what I paid for it, so the cost of the P5 was not that great when you include the discount I got on it.
so you have had your PPP out of your system while you wait for the P5? did your blacks get less black? did you stop hearing things that you had heard before? was there less "there" there?


----------



## 7ryder

Quote:

Originally Posted by *chjo100* 
You're probably right Chris G but why not get the latest and greatest? I know I would be tempted to get the latest model, even if there was little audible improvement. Plus it has that nifty screen like the PWD










That P10 is a monster! I want one! It looks like its the size of an amplifier.
I was thinking about one of those when they first were announced, then I compared the specs to the PPP and it didn't make sense to me. I would have to get the P10 since the P5 doesn't have as many outlets as the PPP and I have 9 in use.


As for the nifty screen, in my situation with all equipment out of site, it's kind of lost on me.










Yeah, the P10 is big. I believe the case for the P5 is the same case that they are using for the PWD and PWT and the P10's case is the same case that they are using for their new amplifier prototype. Frankly, I'd have to get a new rack if I put something as big as the P10 in or I'd have to put the damn thing on the floor!


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *7ryder* 
so you have had your PPP out of your system while you wait for the P5? did your blacks get less black? did you stop hearing things that you had heard before? was there less "there" there?








There is so little "there" now, that I'm not even sure I can stand to listen to my system. Cymbals sound like white noise, horns sound like someone letting the air out of balloon, and everything is so jumbled together that Dianna Krall sounds like a Slipknot concert.









Quote:

Originally Posted by *7ryder* 
I was thinking about one of those when they first were announced, then I compared the specs to the PPP and it didn't make sense to me. I would have to get the P10 since the P5 doesn't have as many outlets as the PPP and I have 9 in use.


As for the nifty screen, in my situation with all equipment out of site, it's kind of lost on me.










Yeah, the P10 is big. I believe the case for the P5 is the same case that they are using for the PWD and PWT and the P10's case is the same case that they are using for their new amplifier prototype. Frankly, I'd have to get a new rack if I put something as big as the P10 in or I'd have to put the damn thing on the floor!
Not to worry, you've already got a sexy black PS audio box and touch screen with your PerfectShave DAC.


----------



## chjo100

Quote:

Originally Posted by *7ryder* 
I was thinking about one of those when they first were announced, then I compared the specs to the PPP and it didn't make sense to me. I would have to get the P10 since the P5 doesn't have as many outlets as the PPP and I have 9 in use.


As for the nifty screen, in my situation with all equipment out of site, it's kind of lost on me.










Yeah, the P10 is big. I believe the case for the P5 is the same case that they are using for the PWD and PWT and the P10's case is the same case that they are using for their new amplifier prototype. Frankly, I'd have to get a new rack if I put something as big as the P10 in or I'd have to put the damn thing on the floor!
I think I would need a P10 for all the components I have, but man that unit is pricey! I'll have wait till a used one or refurbished unit pops up. I'm assuming it comes in silver.


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *chjo100* 
I think I would need a P10 for all the components I have, but man that unit is pricey! I'll have wait till a used one or refurbished unit pops up. I'm assuming it comes in silver.
The price for these power strips does border on the ridiculous. If they hadn't of made this a "connected" device, and had to program all sorts of software for the damn thing, I'm sure the price would be more reasonable. But then, as 7Ryder pointed out, if you don't need all the new whiz-bangery, you can get pretty much the same performance from the last gen unit for a 1/3rd of the price. But you won't be nearly as cool.










PS - yes, they come in silver.


----------



## chjo100

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
The price for these power strips does border on the ridiculous. If they hadn't of made this a "connected" device, and had to program all sorts of software for the damn thing, I'm sure the price would be more reasonable. But then, as 7Ryder pointed out, if you don't need all the new whiz-bangery, you can get pretty much the same performance from the last gen unit for a 1/3rd of the price. But you won't be nearly as cool.










PS - yes, they come in silver.









Drool.


----------



## chjo100

Quote:

Originally Posted by *7ryder* 
I was thinking about one of those when they first were announced, then I compared the specs to the PPP and it didn't make sense to me. I would have to get the P10 since the P5 doesn't have as many outlets as the PPP and I have 9 in use.


As for the nifty screen, in my situation with all equipment out of site, it's kind of lost on me.










Yeah, the P10 is big. I believe the case for the P5 is the same case that they are using for the PWD and PWT and the P10's case is the same case that they are using for their new amplifier prototype. Frankly, I'd have to get a new rack if I put something as big as the P10 in or I'd have to put the damn thing on the floor!
LOL, it would be a little ridiculous if you had to get some sort of amplifier type stand for a power conditioner.


----------



## Waboman

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Yeah, the PPPs are great units and the only power product that has even made a hint of a difference to sound quality of my system(s).


I'm probably not the best person to try to upsell you on the P5. I bought it because it is new and cool looking and sexy black.







You could say I'm bringin' sexy black.










As for lunch, both sound good.
I'm an easy upsell.







However, in this case I'm gonna stick with my dual PPPs.









Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
The price for these power strips does border on the ridiculous. If they hadn't of made this a "connected" device, and had to program all sorts of software for the damn thing, I'm sure the price would be more reasonable. But then, as 7Ryder pointed out, if you don't need all the new whiz-bangery, you can get pretty much the same performance from the last gen unit for a 1/3rd of the price. But you won't be nearly as cool.










PS - yes, they come in silver.









Damn, that P10 is sexy. No...must...resist... PPPs just fine...


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *chjo100* 
LOL, it would be a little ridiculous if you had to get some sort of amplifier type stand for a power conditioner.
If by ridiculous you mean awesome, then I agree.










I think IanG over in the PS Audio forum said it best.


The P5 sounds better, by a significant margin, than any Power Plant we have ever built and the P10 is somewhat better sounding than the P5: more authoritative, more powerful in its presentation of music.


Written another way, you could say The PPP sounds worse, by a significant margin, than the P5 we have just built and the PPP sounds somewhat even more worse than the P10.


Personally, I don't see how 7Ryder could do without such ridiculous awesomeness.


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Waboman* 
I'm an easy upsell.







However, in this case I'm gonna stick with my dual PPPs.












Damn, that P10 is sexy. No...must...resist... PPPs just fine...
Wait for it......


it comes in "back in black" sexy too!











I dunno, I think a couple of these next to your tower of power speakers and moster McIntosh amps would look right at home.


Just sayin'.


----------



## chjo100

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
If by ridiculous you mean awesome, then I agree.










I think IanG over in the PS Audio forum said it best.


The P5 sounds better, by a significant margin, than any Power Plant we have ever built and the P10 is somewhat better sounding than the P5: more authoritative, more powerful in its presentation of music.


Written another way, you could say The PPP sounds worse, by a significant margin, than the P5 we have just built and the PPP sounds somewhat even more worse than the P10.


Personally, I don't see how 7Ryder could do without such ridiculous awesomeness.








Yes, by ridiculous I did mean awesome. I've been thinking what I need is a little more awesome in my system. This might be just the ticket. Waboman-group discount!


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *chjo100* 
Yes, by ridiculous I did mean awesome. I've been thinking what I need is a little more awesome in my system. This might be just the ticket. Waboman-group discount!
I'm working my way up from lame to semi-awesome, but if you include the new car, I think I achieve fully awesome on the whole.


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *alma321* 
Even though this thread is semi dead, thought I would post and get some insight with some true audiophiles. I just received a Marantz AV 7005 (thanks for the tip hifisponge!!) hooked up to a Emotiva amp playing audio files via a Oppo 93 connected to DefTech STSs. My kind of/sort of first true audio system (before that it was a HTIB JVC system from years ago) I was a video only type of person and really did not know or understand why people spend more money on audio equip than on video gear. Well, after listening to my first 24/96 free demo via HDTracks a few weeks ago I now understand. I was wondering what everyone was/is purchasing for music? I have been buying a lot of DVD-As, SACDs, and downloading 24/96 files off the Internet. Cant believe all these years I have been missing out what really good sounding music is all about, been listening to crappy MP3s via Itunes this whole time. Any suggestions from anyone here about really good audio quality CDs/DVD-As/SACDs would be appreciated.


Speaking of hi-rez audio, good news for those of use using Macs as music servers... iTunes is going hi-rez.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/itunes-go-high-res


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20058142
> 
> 
> Speaking of hi-rez audio, good news for those of use using Macs as music servers... iTunes is going hi-rez.
> 
> http://www.hometheater.com/content/itunes-go-high-res



They also released lightpeak for the new macbooks. 10gb transfer rate, audio and video over one cable and they can be daisy chained.


Cool stuff.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20058194
> 
> 
> They also released lightpeak for the new macbooks. 10gb transfer rate, audio and video over one cable and they can be daisy chained.
> 
> 
> Cool stuff.



Yeah, saw that too, though they refer to it as "Thunderbolt" cable. I'm not sure what I would need that for, but I want it.










What would you do with it?


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20058249
> 
> 
> Yeah, saw that too, though they refer to it as "Thunderbolt" cable. I'm not sure what I would need that for, but I want it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What would you do with it?



Not sure what I would do with it. I suppose for backup it would be blazing fast. Connecting to a display for audio and video would be nice and it can power some components (up to 100 watt) so it could reduce a lot of clutter. For audio, I'm sure some dac will come out claiming super low jitter figures and superiority over all over formats (usb, firewire). I use PC 99% of the time so I probably won't be using it unless the PC side adopts it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20058494
> 
> 
> Not sure what I would do with it. I suppose for backup it would be blazing fast. Connecting to a display for audio and video would be nice and it can power some components (up to 100 watt) so it could reduce a lot of clutter. For audio, I'm sure some dac will come out claiming super low jitter figures and superiority over all over formats (usb, firewire). I use PC 99% of the time so I probably won't be using it unless the PC side adopts it.



That's the only thing that came to mind for me too-- back up or file transfers, but that is a pretty unexciting use of that tech I think. It does make me wonder if HDMI will ever be overtaken by another single cable connection type though. Not that I want that because that would make my current stuff obsolete.


----------



## ddgtr

Man, this thread moves fast!! Lots of catching up to do...


Tim, so is it set, are you getting the P5 or P10?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20059231
> 
> 
> Man, this thread moves fast!! Lots of catching up to do...
> 
> 
> Tim, so is it set, are you getting the P5 or P10?



Ha! This thread was on fire today!










Since this post was quickly buried in all the activity, I'll do a repost to bring you up to speed.










>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


While my AV rack may never return to the sexy tower of silver it once was, I going to up the quality and the presentation a bit, so it is less of a hodge-podge of gear. Besides, everyone knows that black is the new silver anyway, so all black it is.










Just placed an order for the following:

*Denon DBP-2012*










*Apple Mac Mini*










*LaCie 2TB HD x 2*










*PS Audio Power Plant P5*










All this stuff will run me just under $3K, which while not cheap, it is less than half of what I've spent on a single piece of Classe gear in the past. So I'm not totally reformed from the AV sickness, but I'm doing better.










While not as sexy as the Classe, I have to say that I really enjoy the ease of use and reliability of the Denon 5308. And to these ears, I can't say that I'm missing much in terms of sound quality. Maybe a side-by-side comparison would make the subtle differences more apparent, but I have no complaints.


----------



## hifisponge

Found out more good news this week.


Denon is going to offer an update to their prepro and the AVR-5308 that I own so that they have all of the current technologies available in the newer components.


The upgrade program will begin in October and will include the following feature enhancements to these already incredible products, ensuring them of being the entertainment centerpiece to their owners' home.

Included in the upgrade*Audyssey MultEQ XT32 (including Audyssey Pro)

Audyssey DSX Surround Processing

Dolby PLIIz Surround Processing

3D Video Pass-through via HDMI*


I only really care about the Audyssey XT32, but the other options are a great way to keep their flagship products from becoming obsolete, or at least less desirable.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20057928
> 
> 
> Wait for it......
> 
> 
> it comes in "back in black" sexy too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno, I think a couple of these next to your tower of power speakers and moster McIntosh amps would look right at home.
> 
> 
> Just sayin'.



Lol. You're killing me now. That just shouts, "I'm freakin' awesome! I'm a 73lb power regenerator! I'm bigger than most amps! You need to buy me!"










Lets see, if I sold both my PPPs...


----------



## Waboman





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20057936
> 
> 
> Yes, by ridiculous I did mean awesome. I've been thinking what I need is a little more awesome in my system. This might be just the ticket. Waboman-group discount!



How much does this awesomeness go for? Group discount!


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20059497
> 
> 
> Found out more good news this week.
> 
> 
> Denon is going to offer an update to their prepro and the AVR-5308 that I own so that they have all of the current technologies available in the newer components.
> 
> 
> The upgrade program will begin in October and will include the following feature enhancements to these already incredible products, ensuring them of being the entertainment centerpiece to their owners’ home.
> 
> Included in the upgrade*Audyssey MultEQ XT32 (including Audyssey Pro)
> 
> Audyssey DSX Surround Processing
> 
> Dolby PLIIz Surround Processing
> 
> 3D Video Pass-through via HDMI*
> 
> 
> I only really care about the Audyssey XT32, but the other options are a great way to keep their flagship products from becoming obsolete, or at least less desirable.



Lets not forget the mighty AVP-A1HDCI is also getting the upgrade.










You can sign up here for upgrade info.


----------



## alma321




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20059349
> 
> 
> Ha! This thread was on fire today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since this post was quickly buried in all the activity, I'll do a repost to bring you up to speed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> 
> While my AV rack may never return to the sexy tower of silver it once was, I going to up the quality and the presentation a bit, so it is less of a hodge-podge of gear. Besides, everyone knows that black is the new silver anyway, so all black it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just placed an order for the following:
> 
> *Denon DBP-2012*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Apple Mac Mini*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *LaCie 2TB HD x 2*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PS Audio Power Plant P5*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All this stuff will run me just under $3K, which while not cheap, it is less than half of what I've spent on a single piece of Classe gear in the past. So I'm not totally reformed from the AV sickness, but I'm doing better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While not as sexy as the Classe, I have to say that I really enjoy the ease of use and reliability of the Denon 5308. And to these ears, I can't say that I'm missing much in terms of sound quality. Maybe a side-by-side comparison would make the subtle differences more apparent, but I have no complaints.



Tim (Can I call you that? Kind of feels strange since I don't really know you!) I was wondering if you received the Lacies yet? I was about to pull the trigger on it just because it was black and had that really cool blue light (which matched perfectly with my by other equip) but was put off by some of the reviews and depending on different model numbers that the manufacturer of the actual hard drive varied. I did receive my 2TB Fantom Drives G-Force ESATA/USB 2.0 32MB Black today which so far is perfect for my needs. All I really need it for is to playback CDs and other HiRez music files.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20059612
> 
> 
> Lets not forget the mighty AVP-A1HDCI is also getting the upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can sign up here for upgrade info.



I hope they don't make the upgrade cost any more than the difference between the original retail price and the new retail, they would have class if they did that...if they charge more then the total retail price difference, they would be classe


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/20059653
> 
> 
> I hope they don't make the upgrade cost any more than the difference between the original retail price and the new retail, they would have class if they did that...if they charge more then the total retail price difference, they would be classe



Lol. The cost for the upgrade is speculated to be $1099.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20059595
> 
> 
> Lol. You're killing me now. That just shouts, "I'm freakin' awesome! I'm a 73lb power regenerator! I'm bigger than most amps! You need to buy me!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lets see, if I sold both my PPPs...



Now you're talkin'.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20059612
> 
> 
> Lets not forget the mighty AVP-A1HDCI is also getting the upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can sign up here for upgrade info.



I can never remember the model number of that Denon prepro. What is it again, the AVPZQR-1?







But, I did mention that the upgrade is for both the "prepro" and the 5308. Go ahead and look back at my OP. I said it alright, oh yeah I said it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alma321* /forum/post/20059614
> 
> 
> Tim (Can I call you that? Kind of feels strange since I don't really know you!) I was wondering if you received the Lacies yet? I was about to pull the trigger on it just because it was black and had that really cool blue light (which matched perfectly with my by other equip) but was put off by some of the reviews and depending on different model numbers that the manufacturer of the actual hard drive varied. I did receive my 2TB Fantom Drives G-Force ESATA/USB 2.0 32MB Black today which so far is perfect for my needs. All I really need it for is to playback CDs and other HiRez music files.



Sure you can call me Tim. It's better than the dorky alias I chose when I started here.










I get the LaCie HDs tomorrow. Though it will take a while to see how reliable they are. It does have a 2 year warranty, so at least if it craps out, I can get it fixed.


FWIW my research on this particular LaCie showed 4.5 and 5 star ratings across the board.

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...ddd4f1c4c47812


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/20059653
> 
> 
> I hope they don't make the upgrade cost any more than the difference between the original retail price and the new retail, they would have class if they did that...if they charge more then the total retail price difference, they would be classe



Still stewing over this eh?










Knowing Denon's past practices, the new version of the AVP and the 5308 will probably remain fairly flat compared to what the current version costs. Maybe a $500 increase. So I will probably end up paying more for the same thing than a new buyer, but at least I don't have to sell my current one off at a loss to buy the new one.


I imagine I'd take at least a $1K loss if I sold, then the re-buy at +$500, would put me at -$1600 vs. -$1100 for the update.


Same thing with the Classe, right? Sell for $7K or $7.5K, re-buy for $9.5K, lose $2-2.5K. Or upgrade for $1.5K.


----------



## ddgtr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20059349
> 
> 
> Ha! This thread was on fire today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ............
> 
> While my AV rack may never return to the sexy tower of silver it once was, I going to up the quality and the presentation a bit, so it is less of a hodge-podge of gear. Besides, everyone knows that black is the new silver anyway, so all black it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .........
> 
> 
> All this stuff will run me just under $3K, which while not cheap, it is less than half of what I've spent on a single piece of Classe gear in the past. So I'm not totally reformed from the AV sickness, but I'm doing better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While not as sexy as the Classe, I have to say that I really enjoy the ease of use and reliability of the Denon 5308. And to these ears, I can't say that I'm missing much in terms of sound quality. Maybe a side-by-side comparison would make the subtle differences more apparent, but I have no complaints.




Thanks Tim, and congratulations on the purchases!!


Actually, they are going to look pretty darn close to the former all-Classe rack, very nice!


Now that you got Wabo going, I'm heading over to agon to find me a deal on a pair of PPP's...


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20059970
> 
> 
> Still stewing over this eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Knowing Denon's past practices, the new version of the AVP and the 5308 will probably remain fairly flat compared to what the current version costs. Maybe a $500 increase. So I will probably end up paying more for the same thing than a new buyer, but at least I don't have to sell my current one off at a loss to buy the new one.
> 
> 
> I imagine I'd take at least a $1K loss if I sold, then the re-buy at +$500, would put me at -$1600 vs. -$1100 for the update.
> 
> 
> Same thing with the Classe, right? Sell for $7K or $7.5K, re-buy for $9.5K, lose $2-2.5K. Or upgrade for $1.5K.



well, if I sold the Classe, I don't know that I'd buy another one.I think the PWD run in bypass through the Classe sounds better then having the DACs and PEQ engaged on the Classe, but I can't use the subs with bypass so I bought a used Parasound JC-2 and had the HTBP added installed by Parasound for $500 which is the retail difference between the non-BP model and the new HTBP model -- see, it can be done!







Just came yesterday so I'll be setting it up over the weekend.


I can run the subs in BP on the JC2 and Dean will be tweeking things in the coming weeks -- I also found that I have a problem in the room below 300Hz that was caused by the remodel (way too big for EQ alone to fix), so I am prolly going to have to do some more Snap-Tex stuff down that hall towards the laundry to get rid of this.


Consequently, if I like the JC2 as much as I think I will, I'll only be using the Classe for HT and, as you've commented before, for HT only, there are a lot of choices out there....heck, I could pick up a Marantz av7005 for $1500 retail and come out ahead after I sell the Classe....KR just did a nice review on it in this month's Stereophile. It switches HDMI faster, has the latest Audyssey, has HDMI 1.4a....sheesh all this for the price of the HDMI 1.4a Classe upgrade and then I have $4K to pay for the SnapTex stuff...hmmmm


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/20060657
> 
> 
> well, if I sold the Classe, I don't know that I'd buy another one.I think the PWD run in bypass through the Classe sounds better then having the DACs and PEQ engaged on the Classe, but I can't use the subs with bypass so I bought a used Parasound JC-2 and had the HTBP added installed by Parasound for $500 which is the retail difference between the non-BP model and the new HTBP model -- see, it can be done!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just came yesterday so I'll be setting it up over the weekend.
> 
> 
> I can run the subs in BP on the JC2 and Dean will be tweeking things in the coming weeks -- I also found that I have a problem in the room below 300Hz that was caused by the remodel (way too big for EQ alone to fix), so I am prolly going to have to do some more Snap-Tex stuff down that hall towards the laundry to get rid of this.
> 
> 
> Consequently, if I like the JC2 as much as I think I will, I'll only be using the Classe for HT and, as you've commented before, for HT only, there are a lot of choices out there....heck, I could pick up a Marantz av7005 for $1500 retail and come out ahead after I sell the Classe....KR just did a nice review on it in this month's Stereophile. It switches HDMI faster, has the latest Audyssey, has HDMI 1.4a....sheesh all this for the price of the HDMI 1.4a Classe upgrade and then I have $4K to pay for the SnapTex stuff...hmmmm



For some of us, it's hard enough to get the approval to get audio gear. I can imagine trying to explain to the wife you need to install more acoustic treatments. "Don't you understand, I have a room issue at 300Mhz!"


JC2 and Classe, you bring back fond memories. I dunno, I think the Classe analog pass through was implemented well so I would consider that before trying a lower priced preamp/processor. The Marantz may be just as good or 90% of the Classe, but I think comparing the two before making any decisions will be important. I have a Arcam preamp/processor sitting at home with no amplifier thus getting no use right now, so if you wanted to borrow to compare let me know. Just e-mail or pm me.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20059603
> 
> 
> How much does this awesomeness go for? Group discount!



I'm not sure since i'm not there yet. But someday, when I hear the sound of awesome come from my gear I'll add up the cost and let you know.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/20060657
> 
> 
> well, if I sold the Classe, I don't know that I'd buy another one.I think the PWD run in bypass through the Classe sounds better then having the DACs and PEQ engaged on the Classe, but I can't use the subs with bypass so I bought a used Parasound JC-2 and had the HTBP added installed by Parasound for $500 which is the retail difference between the non-BP model and the new HTBP model -- see, it can be done!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just came yesterday so I'll be setting it up over the weekend.
> 
> 
> I can run the subs in BP on the JC2 and Dean will be tweeking things in the coming weeks -- I also found that I have a problem in the room below 300Hz that was caused by the remodel (way too big for EQ alone to fix), so I am prolly going to have to do some more Snap-Tex stuff down that hall towards the laundry to get rid of this.
> 
> 
> Consequently, if I like the JC2 as much as I think I will, I'll only be using the Classe for HT and, as you've commented before, for HT only, there are a lot of choices out there....heck, I could pick up a Marantz av7005 for $1500 retail and come out ahead after I sell the Classe....KR just did a nice review on it in this month's Stereophile. It switches HDMI faster, has the latest Audyssey, has HDMI 1.4a....sheesh all this for the price of the HDMI 1.4a Classe upgrade and then I have $4K to pay for the SnapTex stuff...hmmmm



Sounds like a great plan. You wouldn't be the first to jump ship on a high-end prepro for a 2CH optimized system and reasonably priced HT prepro. There are a bunch of guys around here that dropped things like the Theta for an Integra and never looked back.


And based on what I heard from the Vivids in your room, if you can even out the bottom end through room treatment, you shouldn't need EQ for stereo listening.


Let me know how it goes.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20061782
> 
> 
> For some of us, it's hard enough to get the approval to get audio gear. I can imagine trying to explain to the wife you need to install more acoustic treatments. "Don't you understand, I have a room issue at 300Mhz!"
> 
> 
> JC2 and Classe, you bring back fond memories. I dunno, I think the Classe analog pass through was implemented well so I would consider that before trying a lower priced preamp/processor. The Marantz may be just as good or 90% of the Classe, but I think comparing the two before making any decisions will be important. I have a Arcam preamp/processor sitting at home with no amplifier thus getting no use right now, so if you wanted to borrow to compare let me know. Just e-mail or pm me.



Also good advice and kind of you as usual to help out.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20060112
> 
> 
> Thanks Tim, and congratulations on the purchases!!
> 
> 
> Actually, they are going to look pretty darn close to the former all-Classe rack, very nice!
> 
> 
> Now that you got Wabo going, I'm heading over to agon to find me a deal on a pair of PPP's...



Haha.







Waiting for Tim to score me a sweet deal on a P10.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20061803
> 
> 
> I'm not sure since i'm not there yet. But someday, when I hear the sound of awesome come from my gear I'll add up the cost and let you know.



Lol. I was actually referring to the price of the P10.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20061953
> 
> 
> Haha.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting for Tim to score me a sweet deal on a P10.



Does 25% off work for you? If so, PM me.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Does 25% off work for you? If so, PM me.



What a generous offer.







Thank you. Just for shoots & giggles, what does a P10 go go?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20062161
> 
> 
> What a generous offer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. Just for shoots & giggles, what does a P10 go go?



$4499 or $3375 after discount.


No pressure. I was only ribbing you before.


And there really is no strong reason to go with P10 over your dual PPPs as far as I can tell, unless you just have to have the new hotness.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20062286
> 
> 
> $4499 or $3375 after discount.
> 
> 
> No pressure. I was only ribbing you before.
> 
> 
> And there really is no strong reason to go with P10 over your dual PPPs as far as I can tell, unless you just have to have the new hotness.



actually I hear chicks love the P10...


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/20062353
> 
> 
> actually I hear chicks love the P10...



If by P10 you mean a 10" PP, then probably so.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/20042844
> 
> 
> 21.02.11
> 
> 
> The Show has been selected as the UK Launch venue for two models from the Geometry Series.
> 
> 
> The Geometry Collection is a ground up development that sees the introduction of a raft of new technologies. The starting point for this collection was the archetypal Odyssey Series that remains unchanged. The design goal: To provide the most advanced technologies and the highest performance within its class. Acoustic objectives: high efficiency, benchmark transient response capabilities and industry standard signal to noise ratio.
> 
> 
> Craig Milnes turns into a Speaker in The Future is Carbon Presentation.
> 
> 
> On behalf of the design team behind this development, there will be a rare opportunity to see and hear Design Director Craig Milnes making a special presentation at 12:30 on Friday and Saturday. The presentation will address some of the principal innovations in the Geometry Series, as well as providing a unique insight into a real manufacturing company that has won critical acclaim across the world for its passionate commitment to pioneering research, advanced manufacturing and introduction of aerospace materials technologies into audio design.
> 
> 
> The Future is Carbon!



Thanks to CorboDuze, my attention has been brought to a new speaker series from WB. They were supposedly unveiled today at a trade show in the UK, but i can't find any coverage so far.


I did find this small pic of what appears to be one of the new speakers.











It looks like they have finally updated the tweeter and could be offering some new finishes (the pic shows some sort of graphite metallic for the stand and speaker ports). I'll post more when I find it.


Edit: upon a closer look, I think that is WB's standard matte black finish just picking up the light in an unusual way.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20062286
> 
> 
> $4499 or $3375 after discount.
> 
> 
> No pressure. I was only ribbing you before.
> 
> 
> And there really is no strong reason to go with P10 over your dual PPPs as far as I can tell, unless you just have to have the new hotness.



Thanks, Tim.










$4499? Ouch. I was thinking (hoping) more along the lines of $3k. I'm gonna have to sit this one out. Now I better go give my PPPs a hug and hope they're not mad at me.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/20062353
> 
> 
> actually I hear chicks love the P10...



Word on the street is they prefer dual PPPs even more. Oh yeah!











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20062484
> 
> 
> If by P10 you mean a 10" PP, then probably so.



He's here all week folks.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20062587
> 
> 
> Thanks to CorboDuze, my attention has been brought to a new speaker series from WB.



Looks like Tim will be getting a new set of speakers. The adventure continues!


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20063166
> 
> 
> Looks like Tim will be getting a new set of speakers. The adventure continues!



The color of the new WB matches his new equipment


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20063166
> 
> 
> Looks like Tim will be getting a new set of speakers. The adventure continues!





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20063222
> 
> 
> The color of the new WB matches his new equipment



Don't push it too far guys. I might just snap, sell the Porsche and dive into the hobby head first again.


Hmmm... I wonder if anyone makes a speaker with a cabinet made from industrial diamond? I'm pretty sure I need some of those.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20063162
> 
> 
> Word on the street is they prefer dual PPPs even more. Oh yeah!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's here all week folks.



And don't forget to tip your waitress...


----------



## hifisponge

For those interested, I've added some of the speakers I went through last year to the 2nd post on page 1 of this thread. I'll complete the collection in that section as soon as I can. Thank you for your patience and your patronage.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20062587
> 
> 
> Thanks to CorboDuze, my attention has been brought to a new speaker series from WB. They were supposedly unveiled today at a trade show in the UK, but i can't find any coverage so far.
> 
> 
> I did find this small pic of what appears to be one of the new speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like they have finally updated the tweeter and could be offering some new finishes (the pic shows some sort of graphite metallic for the stand and speaker ports). I'll post more when I find it.
> 
> 
> Edit: upon a closer look, I think that is WB's standard matte black finish just picking up the light in an unusual way.



Found a bit more info on the new WB speakers revealed at the Sound and Vision show in Bristol UK.


There are two models in the Geometry Series: the floorstanding Vector (£7800) and standmount Vertex (£4500). The standmount Vertex is a two-way design with a 17cm Tactic II mid/bass driver and a new 25mm Semisphere tweeter. The Vector floorstander has twin 17cm Tactic II mid/bass drivers combined with the 25mm Semisphere tweeter.


Other than the new drivers, they look identical to the ARC standmount and the Curve floorstander. I feel no compelling reason to make the switch to them, but then I haven't heard them. I'm most curious about the new tweeter, since WB has been using the same model Scan Speak tweeter in all of their speakers for over 10 years now. Based on appearance alone, it looks like the new tweeter may be another SS tweet with a waveguide now, which could help improve the blend between woof and tweet at the x-over point.


----------



## gamelover360

Hifisponge....


I hate to throw gas on the fire, but have you ever listened to Procella speakers . They are worth an audition next time you may feel the need to swap speakers.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gamelover360* /forum/post/20081363
> 
> 
> Hifisponge....
> 
> 
> I hate to throw gas on the fire, but have you ever listened to Procella speakers . They are worth an audition next time you may feel the need to swap speakers.



Hey GL360 -


I've heard of them, but haven't heard them. I might consider something like them if i had a dedicated movie room, but in my current situation, the speakers aesthetics have to more appealing since they are on display.










Do you own them?


----------



## gamelover360




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20081831
> 
> 
> Hey GL360 -
> 
> 
> I've heard of them, but haven't heard them. I might consider something like them if i had a dedicated movie room, but in my current situation, the speakers aesthetics have to more appealing since they are on display.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you own them?



Yes, I own them. I actually love their industrial form follows function look....black boxes....all business. But that is taste thing. I totally understand someone wanting snazzier looking speakers. But take the time to listen to them in a well set up room.......You may learn to love their look when the lights are off and the movie/music is playing.














You can't tell me three of these across the front wouldn't look AWESOME in your room.










Edit: I have an AT screen...but would still use Procella even if I had to stare at them....


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gamelover360* /forum/post/20082003
> 
> 
> Yes, I own them. I actually love their industrial form follows function look....black boxes....all business. But that is taste thing. I totally understand someone wanting snazzier looking speakers. But take the time to listen to them in a well set up room.......You may learn to love their look when the lights are off and the movie/music is playing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't tell me three of these across the front wouldn't look AWESOME in your room.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I have an AT screen...but would still use Procella even if I had to stare at them....



I like industrial too, but I like this interpretation better.



















It's all there... carbon fiber, extruded aluminum, and steel. What more could you ask for? Oh yeah, that they also sound amazing.


With that said, your enthusiasm for the procellas does make me curious. Always looking for new experiences.


Now you need to hear these:










I'm not real keen on the cabinet styling, but they are some of the best speakers I've heard in a long, long time. Some serious engineering behind them.


----------



## gamelover360

The vivid audio website looks really cool. Impressive.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gamelover360* /forum/post/20082399
> 
> 
> The vivid audio website looks really cool. Impressive.



Yeah, their drivers are a thing of technological and engineering beauty.


Just checked out your room. Nice job! Cozy and the acoustic treatment actually looks quite stylish.


So why not Genelec? They're built right across the pond from you and they are quite good.


Edit: I see two of the founders of Procella are from the Netherlands. I though they were a California company. Where are the Procella's made.


----------



## gamelover360




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20082541
> 
> 
> Yeah, their drivers are a thing of technological and engineering beauty.
> 
> 
> Just checked out your room. Nice job! Cozy and the acoustic treatment actually looks quite stylish.
> 
> 
> So why not Genelec? They're built right across the pond from you and they are quite good.
> 
> 
> Edit: I see two of the founders of Procella are from the Netherlands. I though they were a California company. Where are the Procella's made.



Sweden


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gamelover360* /forum/post/20083336
> 
> 
> Sweden



Did you consider Genelec?


----------



## hifisponge

I'm often singing the praises of EQ here on AVS and I thought it would be a good idea to show some before and after graphs along with a brief description of the sound of each.










This is the unequalized response of the left Trinity speaker + JL sub. Starting at the highest frequencies and working down, from 20KHz-10KHz, the lack of energy hear results in a lack of definition, sparkle and "air". The slight dish between 3KHz-1.5KHz is mild enough that it is inconsequential, though it may impart a slightly more distant or laid back sound, which I tend to find more pleasing than having a hump here. I don't hear the hump between 1.5KHz-600Hz as much as I do the trough from 600Hz-200Hz, which makes the sound somewhat lean. The dip between 150Hz-80Hz results in a lack of impact to kick drum. Then there is that ginormous peak at 30Hz. Not a lot of music hits that peak, but when it does, can you say "room boom"?


















And here's what Audyssey EQ does. Beautiful. It sounds just like it looks, which is pretty darn tonally nuetral. The treble looks a little hot overall (there should be a bit more of a downward tilt starting at 4KHz), but the ScanSpeak tweets in the WBs are so clean that it doesn't sound too bright. At the other end of the scale, the bass looks too high, but subjectively it sounds balanced.


From JBL on the subject of setting an in-room frequency response target curve:
_"Room boundaries (walls, ceiling and floor) tend to contain low-frequency energy within the room. Simply stated, this results in a boost in low-frequency energy. This is true whether it is a speaker or a piano producing the sound. The exact frequency at which this effect begins and the amount of boost realized are a function of the room size, shape and wall construction. No two spaces are ever exactly alike. This same low-frequency enhancement also occurs in recording studios, and the recording engineers know this will occur during playback. They balance their recordings in anticipation of this. *Therefore, it would be wrong to “flatten” the speaker system response in the playback environment. To do so only results in a thin bass sound.*


By surveying many listening rooms over the years, JBL engineers have established a low-frequency response characteristic that delivers the most consistently satisfactory results. This has been confirmed through extensive subjective evaluation tests."_


This is the target they are referring to:









_"The Synthesis target curves are derived from data collected in many typical installations. They represent a trend of what should be expected, not a specific shape that must be achieved for good sound."_


----------



## ddgtr

Cool, thanks for posting the graphs, especially the last one.


The second graph (the EQ'd one) is that an RTA or did you run a regular sweep through the Marantz (I've lost track, you're still using the Marantz, right?)


It looks like the Audyssey applied eq throughout the frequency range. Is that a parametric eq, and for the higher freqs did it apply a few wider bandwidths or did it just attempt to deal with the peaks and valleys individually and therefore generating a number of filters?


----------



## ddgtr

LOL, I have the same dip between 300 and 600 Hz...


Purple graph: Both Sonus Faber's, no eq, not optimized for best positioning, just a quick REW sweep. The rep wants to personally deliver and set them up... Also, I had the crossover set at 70 Hz, I turned off the sub but forgot to change the crossover so that's why the reading starts at 70 Hz...










SF claims a 50 to 30k range, so with all the hurry I forgot to change the settings in REW to sweep to 30k - not that it matters that much, just out of curiosity.


Orange graph: Monitor Audio's, with sub, crossed at 70 Hz, no eq, but positioned for the best audible response. Pretty good 30 to 70 response, just a bit of eq made it perfect...


1/12 smoothing for both.


Also, sorry for hijacking the thread, I'll take the next ones over to mine...


----------



## gamelover360

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Did you consider Genelec?
Yes. Went with Procella.


----------



## PHUELIPH

wow,from now on i will refer to you as Mr. Hifi.


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ddgtr* 
Cool, thanks for posting the graphs, especially the last one.


The second graph (the EQ'd one) is that an RTA or did you run a regular sweep through the Marantz (I've lost track, you're still using the Marantz, right?)


It looks like the Audyssey applied eq throughout the frequency range. Is that a parametric eq, and for the higher freqs did it apply a few wider bandwidths or did it just attempt to deal with the peaks and valleys individually and therefore generating a number of filters?
Hey ddgtr -


All of the graphs are using the REW sweep tone, as it is the most accurate way to measure and it gives you the ability to generate waterfall plots and decay times. BTW - I only auditioned the Marantz. I own a Denon AVR5308.










I don't completely understand the tech behind Audyssey, but I do know that it is not a PEQ. It takes hundreds of sample points along the full frequency range to map out the in-room FR, and then it applies a mirror image of that plot to correct the entire range.


BTW - your in-room measurements look fantastic. It looks like all of that room treatment and the ability to place the speakers optimally has really paid off. You could pobably goose the subwoofer level a bit though to get it closer to the JBL target curve I posted.


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *PHUELIPH* 
wow,from now on i will refer to you as Mr. Hifi.
Hey PHUELIPH,


Good to see you wandered over here from the Audyssey thread. Have fun with you new Denon anniversary piece.


----------



## ddgtr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20086461
> 
> 
> Hey ddgtr -
> 
> 
> All of the graphs are using the REW sweep tone, as it is the most accurate way to measure and it gives you the ability to generate waterfall plots and decay times. BTW - I only auditioned the Marantz. I own a Denon AVR5308.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't completely understand the tech behind Audyssey, but I do know that it is not a PEQ. It takes hundreds of sample points along the full frequency range to map out the in-room FR, and then it applies a mirror image of that plot to correct the entire range.
> 
> 
> BTW - your in-room measurements look fantastic. It looks like all of that room treatment and the ability to place the speakers optimally has really paid off. You could pobably goose the subwoofer level a bit though to get it closer to the JBL target curve I posted.



Thanks Tim!


Yes, I've been playing around with sub eq, and in doing so I've learned a lot.


Since I am using separates, I cannot run sweeps through the ElectriQ PEQ I'm using with foobar2000. (John is working on implementing such a feature!!) As per John at REW suggestions, I'm running the sweeps then manually setting the filters. I'm also checking them with RTA and it's been surprisingly accurate!!


You probably aren't into streaming files from your pc via foobar, but the ElectriQ PEQ is an amazing piece of software. With your knowledge and understanding of this subject, you would really appreciate it.


It's extremely flexible and above all, it yields great results. I found that when eq'ing anything above 300-400hz I have to use wide(er) bandwidths. It works like a charm, it both measures well and sounds good. If I do it for every individual peak or valley, when I shift the mic even an inch the whole thing goes kaboom and it renders the respective filters useless.


I still wanna ask you about setting up the mic preamp, I'm not sure about a couple of things. I'll be back.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20088620
> 
> 
> Thanks Tim!
> 
> 
> Yes, I've been playing around with sub eq, and in doing so I've learned a lot.
> 
> 
> Since I am using separates, I cannot run sweeps through the ElectriQ PEQ I'm using with foobar2000. (John is working on implementing such a feature!!) As per John at REW suggestions, I'm running the sweeps then manually setting the filters. I'm also checking them with RTA and it's been surprisingly accurate!!
> 
> 
> You probably aren't into streaming files from your pc via foobar, but the ElectriQ PEQ is an amazing piece of software. With your knowledge and understanding of this subject, you would really appreciate it.
> 
> 
> It's extremely flexible and above all, it yields great results. I found that when eq'ing anything above 300-400hz I have to use wide(er) bandwidths. It works like a charm, it both measures well and sounds good. If I do it for every individual peak or valley, when I shift the mic even an inch the whole thing goes kaboom and it renders the respective filters useless.
> 
> 
> I still wanna ask you about setting up the mic preamp, I'm not sure about a couple of things. I'll be back.



Seems like you are on top of things. And yes, now that you mention it, when using a single mic location for setting filters, it is usually best to use broader filters, because as you pointed out, the specific peaks move with the mic position. I think Audyssey gets around this by averaging multiple mic positions. You'll still end up with broader filters this way, but probably not as broad as when doing it by eye.


Have you tried the averaging function in REW? This allows you to take a few measurements around the main listening seat, combine them and then you would set your filters based on the average. Though, honestly, based on your graphs, I don't think you really nee to EQ the mids and highs in your room.

Edit: I just went back and looked at your graphs again and realized that your dB scale is too wide, giving the appearance of flatter response than it actually is. Please change the range to 45db - 105dB so we are working with the same scale, and post your graphs again.


EQ plug-ins are great, but I don't want the EQ to be limited to my music playback only, and Audyssey, when calibrated properly, does everything I would do with manual EQ, automatically. Takes some of the fun out of the process, but it works, and it works for all sources.


----------



## ddgtr

Here they are: purple is the Sonus Faber, orange is the Monitor Audio. I am overall pretty happy about the waterfall graph - short decay times - except of course that bleeding at 30hz... A bit of eq takes care of most of the longer decay times.


Once I get the new speakers all settled in I will run some sweeps with Audyssey enabled so I can get the HT aspect dialed in as well. I need to look into it a bit, I'm not sure what version I have on my receiver.


Question about "Checking Levels" in REW: I have the preamp and Cross-Spectrum calibrated mic. From REW's help file: _"Press the Check Levels button and follow the instructions on screen. The test signal defaults to an RMS of -12dB FS. If connected to an AV processor, start with the volume fairly low and increase it until the meter is reading around 75dB."_


What meter, do they mean for us to use say a Ratshack meter for this initial reading? I did that, start with about 75 db and by the time I bring the input level reading back down to -18dB, I end up with about 67 db instead of the 75 I started with. If I stay closer to the -12 limit I can make it, but they recommend -18. I know you are very technical and like to have everything precise, how did you do yours??


Thanks!


----------



## PHUELIPH

mr. Hifi.

if i may, i am seriously considering a set of focal's, thinking I might try to obrtain the anniversay model. I have read nothing but raves, yet you weren't thrilled. just curious. very curious.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PHUELIPH* /forum/post/20091740
> 
> 
> mr. Hifi.
> 
> if i may, i am seriously considering a set of focal's, thinking I might try to obrtain the anniversay model. I have read nothing but raves, yet you weren't thrilled. just curious. very curious.



Yeah, I can't say that I liked that Beryllium tweeter much at all. Sounds very edgy and unnatural to me. But some people love the sense of detail it provides. I think the lower Focal lines without the Be tweeter are a bit easier on the ears, but it has been a while since I've heard them. Unless you aren't too picky, definitely try before you buy with any speaker.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20089996
> 
> 
> Here they are: purple is the Sonus Faber, orange is the Monitor Audio. I am overall pretty happy about the waterfall graph - short decay times - except of course that bleeding at 30hz... A bit of eq takes care of most of the longer decay times.



Yup, typical 30-40Hz resonance of a medium sized rectangular room. Thankfully, the less energy you feed into the resonant frequencies, the less they ring, which is just what a carefully place EQ filter will do for you.



> Quote:
> Once I get the new speakers all settled in I will run some sweeps with Audyssey enabled so I can get the HT aspect dialed in as well. I need to look into it a bit, I'm not sure what version I have on my receiver.



Please be sure to share the results, either here or in your thread.



> Quote:
> "Question about "Checking Levels" in REW: I have the preamp and Cross-Spectrum calibrated mic. From REW's help file: _"Press the Check Levels button and follow the instructions on screen. The test signal defaults to an RMS of -12dB FS. If connected to an AV processor, start with the volume fairly low and increase it until the meter is reading around 75dB."_
> 
> 
> What meter, do they mean for us to use say a Ratshack meter for this initial reading? I did that, start with about 75 db and by the time I bring the input level reading back down to -18dB, I end up with about 67 db instead of the 75 I started with. If I stay closer to the -12 limit I can make it, but they recommend -18. I know you are very technical and like to have everything precise, how did you do yours??"



In the set-up section of REW when I check levels, I just get the input reading into the green, slightly below the output level. I only use this to verify that I'm getting an input reading. To set the actual level, I calibrate the SPL reading function in REW using an external SPL meter, adjusting the volume on my AVR until I hit 75dB.


I think what you are running into is that the gain on the mic preamp is a bit too high. In other words, keep your system preamp volume where it needs to be to read 75dB on the external SPL meter and adjust the mic preamp gain knob until the levels on the REW input meter are where they need to be.












> Quote:



OK, these make feel a bit better about my in-room response.







That 300Hz-600Hz dip is typical "floor bounce" first reflection. The treble of the SF's is impressively extended. Do you feel they sound a bit more detailed and "airy" than the MAs?


----------



## ddgtr

Thanks for the breakdown on the preamp setup, I will definitely try it!


There is no doubt that the SF's sound more detailed and "airy" both through midrange and the highs. And overall sounded really big, they thew a huge soundstage. That's why I hurried up to place that order







...


I had the sweep limit at 20khz, when I get them I'll run it to 25k just to see what happens. The MA's start dipping, as you can see, at about 13k.


Thanks!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20092261
> 
> 
> Thanks for the breakdown on the preamp setup, I will definitely try it!
> 
> 
> There is no doubt that the SF's sound more detailed and "airy" both through midrange and the highs. And overall sounded really big, they thew a huge soundstage. That's why I hurried up to place that order
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> I had the sweep limit at 20khz, when I get them I'll run it to 25k just to see what happens. The MA's start dipping, as you can see, at about 13k.
> 
> 
> Thanks!



If you have the M-Audio mic preamp / sound card, the upper limit of that piece is 22KHz, so you won't get a reading in REW above that.


The SFs use the ring radiator tweeter right? It is supposed to have great treble extension. I can hear above 17KHz, so this is all academic for me, but impressive measured performance nonetheless.


Congrats again on the new speaks! I'm sure you are psyched. How long til you get them?


----------



## ddgtr

I have the Behringer XENYX 502 I believe, or the latest version of it, the folks at HTShack recommended it. When I get home I'll check on the model to make sure.


Yes, SF calls it ultra dynamic ring radiator driver...


I am psyched indeed... but slowly deflating though, it's going to be an estimated 3 to 5 weeks from this Saturday. Haha, I'll live...


Tim, I've been meaning to ask you, have you heard any products from these guys? Their headquarters are a few miles from me. From around $10k to $100k per pair it is just a touch out of my reach. They make some interesting claims.

http://www.calaudiotech.com/index.php?action=elite 
http://www.calaudiotech.com/index.ph...&pic=elite1big


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20051962
> 
> 
> Just placed an order for the following:



just curious if you were able to get one of these Denon unit's?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20093106
> 
> 
> I have the Behringer XENYX 502 I believe, or the latest version of it, the folks at HTShack recommended it. When I get home I'll check on the model to make sure.
> 
> 
> Yes, SF calls it ultra dynamic ring radiator driver...
> 
> 
> I am psyched indeed... but slowly deflating though, it's going to be an estimated 3 to 5 weeks from this Saturday. Haha, I'll live...
> 
> 
> Tim, I've been meaning to ask you, have you heard any products from these guys? Their headquarters are a few miles from me. From around $10k to $100k per pair it is just a touch out of my reach. They make some interesting claims.
> 
> http://www.calaudiotech.com/index.php?action=elite
> http://www.calaudiotech.com/index.ph...&pic=elite1big



I've stumbled across CAT while surfing the web for audio info, but I've never heard them. Frankly it looks like they are charging high-end prices for garage-shop level gear. Not that there is anything wrong with small companies making speakers for modest prices, but what is CAT really offering here? More than half of what you pay for in high-end audio is the build quality, styling and prestige, and that seems to be largely missing from the CAT gear. There is only so far you can take the dynamic driver design, so I find it hard to believe that CAT is capable of designing drivers better than Scan Speak, SEAS, and Dynaudio, which is what it looks like they copied.


What CAT is doing seems to me to be a lot like tricking out a Honda so that it has the performance of a super car, and charging super car prices. If you want quality drivers in traditional boxes, I think companies like SALK and Tyler Acoustics offer a better value.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/20093328
> 
> 
> just curious if you were able to get one of these Denon unit's?



I've got a DBP-2012 on order through J&R Music World, but it was a special order and is supposed to take a couple of weeks. I haven't been notified of shipment yet.


----------



## ddgtr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20093863
> 
> 
> I've stumbled across CAT while surfing the web for audio info, but I've never heard them. Frankly it looks like they are charging high-end prices for garage-shop level gear. Not that there is anything wrong with small companies making speakers for modest prices, but what is CAT really offering here? More than half of what you pay for in high-end audio is the build quality, styling and prestige, and that seems to be largely missing from the CAT gear. There is only so far you can take the dynamic driver design, so I find it hard to believe that CAT is capable of designing drivers better than Scan Speak, SEAS, and Dynaudio, which is what it looks like they copied.
> 
> 
> What CAT is doing seems to me to be a lot like tricking out a Honda so that it has the performance of a super car, and charging super car prices. If you want quality drivers in traditional boxes, I think companies like SALK and Tyler Acoustics offer a better value.




Very well said!










Congrats on the new purchase!!


----------



## 7ryder

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
I've stumbled across CAT while surfing the web for audio info, but I've never heard them. Frankly it looks like they are charging high-end prices for garage-shop level gear. Not that there is anything wrong with small companies making speakers for modest prices, but what is CAT really offering here? More than half of what you pay for in high-end audio is the build quality, styling and prestige, and that seems to be largely missing from the CAT gear. There is only so far you can take the dynamic driver design, so I find it hard to believe that CAT is capable of designing drivers better than Scan Speak, SEAS, and Dynaudio, which is what it looks like they copied.


What CAT is doing seems to me to be a lot like tricking out a Honda so that it has the performance of a super car, and charging super car prices. If you want quality drivers in traditional boxes, I think companies like SALK and Tyler Acoustics offer a better value.
hmmmm I dunno, they DO have copper phase plugs....


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *7ryder* 
hmmmm I dunno, they DO have copper phase plugs....








You get even more copper for your money with these, at only $2200 a pair no less.


----------



## hifisponge

When I posted the graph of the EQ'd response back in post 1446, I noticed that there's a dip right around the 80Hz cross-over point. I had a bit of free time this weekend, so I pulled out my measurement equipment to see if I could fill in the gap by adjusting the timing of the sub in relation to the mains. In a 2CH system, this would be achieved by adjusting the phase dial on the sub, but the same thing can be accomplished with the distance setting in the prepro or AVR.


In my system, the Audyssey set the sub distance at 15.3 feet. The actual distance is probably closer to 14 feet, but technically, Audyssey is more accurate because it is able to account for delays to the signal caused by the electronics in the sub. Even so, I wanted to see if I could get a better blend between the sub and the mains by playing with the distance setting.


You could change the sub distance setting by a foot and measure each time, but I find you get a better idea of the direction to go by going to the extremes first. So I set the distance from 15.3 feet to 10 feet. Bingo, the dip at just above 80Hz turned into a hump. I then adjusted the distance a foot at a time towards 15.3 feet until the hump went away and the dip was gone. I ended up at 13.0 feet.










Blue is default Audyssey distance setting of 15.3 feet, Magenta is the new 13.0 foot setting


----------



## moonhawk

That's pretty cool. Can you hear a difference?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/20109370
> 
> 
> That's pretty cool. Can you hear a difference?



It depends on the musical content, but yes, using my reference tracks for bass, there is better punch / kick. I did have to reduce the overall sub level a couple dB though.


----------



## hifisponge

I watched SALT last night, and I was surprised by how much more dynamic the special effects (gunfire, explosions, etc.) sounded with the tweak I made to the subwoofer distance. Now that that the mains and the sub are speaking in unison, and the upper bass around the the cross over point is at the level it is supposed to be, these things have noticeably more impact, even with the volume at the same level that I typically listen (-15 dB from reference).


That's all I've got for today. Still waiting on the rest of my pieces to come in to complete my all-black masterpiece. Probably another couple of weeks to go.


----------



## ddgtr

Nice job Tim!


It's great when things work out like that!! Looking forward to when the rest of the system comes together!!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20120631
> 
> 
> Nice job Tim!
> 
> 
> It's great when things work out like that!! Looking forward to when the rest of the system comes together!!



The hardest part is the waiting, and I know you know just what I mean.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Slavikk* /forum/post/20120659
> 
> 
> I'm curious, have you watched/listened to Kick Ass yet? Its in DTS MA 7.1 and has to be one of the best movie audio tracks I have ever listened to. Not sure if its because I only have a 5.1 setup and the 2 extra channels are being mixed in to to my existing setup or the audio track is just really well done. Tim, do you have a 5.1 or 7.1 setup? I bring this up because of your quote "and I was surprised by how much more dynamic the special effects (gunfire, explosions, etc.) No tweaks made just what I heard. (formerly known as alma321)



Hey Slavikk -


I watched Kick Ass when I was between surround systems, so I didn't get to experience it in all of its glory. Guess I'll have to rent it again.










Speaking of great soundtracks, check out Sherlock Holmes with Brian Downey, if you haven't already. I've got that one in the queue again.


BTW - I have a 5.1 system. I'd like to go 7, 9, or even 11.2, but I don't have the space for the extra speakers. My next house will be different.


----------



## hifisponge

Some of you may remember this work of art from the first page of this thread:











And this is what it has turned into....










I working to bring things back to their former glory, but I don't know that I will ever get the backside of the rack looking as good as it back then. When I did the cabling in that system, I was able to make all of the analog cables the exact lengths needed. Now, all of my connections are digital, so I'm at the mercy of the cable lengths available for sale. But it will be as good as I can get. Wish me luck.


----------



## ddgtr

+1 on Sherlock Holmes, great soundtrack! I also loved KickAss, what a crazy movie!!


As far as cable management is concerned, I have absolutely no doubt that it's going to be back to its original state, if not better!!


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20093875
> 
> 
> I've got a DBP-2012 on order through J&R Music World, but it was a special order and is supposed to take a couple of weeks. I haven't been notified of shipment yet



I'm begginning to wonder if it may be more worthwhile to get the Marantz UD7006 instead (of the DBP-2012CI)? I understand they share much of the platform/features.
http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pa...oductId=UD7006 


Actually I just pulled the trigger on a new Sony SCD-XA5400ES, this thing is killer (at least what I've read on it):
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/sacd-...es-player.html 


Wanted to have one "dedicated" type player (for CD/SACD) combined with a "universal" unit (DVD-A, HDCD, SD-DVD, BD, etc.,...). So I'm contemplating either an Oppo BDP-95 or maybe the Marantz. At this point I'm weighing analog sound quality and overall reliability. The Marantz seems to have quite a few nice features. Both players are equally priced.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/20121133
> 
> 
> I'm begginning to wonder if it may be more worthwhile to get the Marantz UD7006 instead (of the DBP-2012CI)? I understand they share much of the platform/features.
> http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pa...oductId=UD7006
> 
> 
> Actually I just pulled the trigger on a new Sony SCD-XA5400ES, this thing is killer (at least what I've read on it):
> http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/sacd-...es-player.html
> 
> 
> Wanted to have one "dedicated" type player (for CD/SACD) combined with a "universal" unit (DVD-A, HDCD, SD-DVD, BD, etc.,...). So I'm contemplating either an Oppo BDP-95 or maybe the Marantz. At this point I'm weighing analog sound quality and overall reliability. The Marantz seems to have quite a few nice features. Both players are equally priced.



That Sony does look like a sweet player. I rarely listen to music on a disc any more though, so having a dedicated player doesn't make sense for me. I had a reference Classe player for a while, but sold it off once I ripped everything to Apple Lossless and connected a Mac Mini to my system. I really just want a nicer BD player, and the Denon I have on order also happens to play SACD, which is just a small side bonus for me for the occasional times that I want to listen to music in that format.


As for the Marantz, since I will only be using the player as a transport, connected digitally to the my Denon AVR, I see no benefit by going with that particular unit in my system. I would be surprised if internally it isn't identical to the Denon 2012, and it is $100 more. One guy in the Denon 2012 player thread said he thought the Marantz might have better grade caps in it. Even if this is true, that has to do with the analog output stage, which I won't be using. If you will be though, it could be worth the small premium. It looks like both this player and the Denon are due out next month (4/8/11 according to Crutchfield).


The Oppo is another great choice, but again, for me, the functionality of the Denon player provides all that I need, and when combined with the case that matches my AVR, this puts it in the lead for my choice. I understand that your needs may be different.


----------



## alma321




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20120789
> 
> 
> The hardest part is the waiting, and I know you know just what I mean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Slavikk -
> 
> 
> I watched Kick Ass when I was between surround systems, so I didn't get to experience it in all of its glory. Guess I'll have to rent it again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of great soundtracks, check out Sherlock Holmes with Brian Downey, if you haven't already. I've got that one in the queue again.
> 
> 
> BTW - I have a 5.1 system. I'd like to go 7, 9, or even 11.2, but I don't have the space for the extra speakers. My next house will be different.



Sherlock Holmes with Brian Downey? Google isn't pulling up any results. Am I missing something here?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alma321* /forum/post/20124350
> 
> 
> Sherlock Holmes with Brian Downey? Google isn't pulling up any results. Am I missing something here?



Sorry, got the actor's name wrong. Robert Downey, not Brian.










This one.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Slavikk* /forum/post/20124502
> 
> 
> Doh! Logged in with my old User ID by mistake in the last comment I left. I did see it but don't remember being blown away by the sound. But then again I don't think I had my surrounds yet. Just put in my Blockbuster queue. Ill give it another spin.



The surrounds should help, but, maybe you also need to tweak your system to experience the full impact of the movie? I'm not suggesting different gear, though that is a possibility too, but as I stated a few posts ago, I was able to improve the impact from special affects by better aligning my sub with my mains. In-room bass response is different for each system too, which can impact the impression of how impressive a soundtrack is.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Slavikk* /forum/post/20124624
> 
> 
> Have 2 DefTech STSs with built in subs. The surrounds are to the side of me, one about 4 feet away the other is 7 feet. My current place doesn't really let me setup the surrounds like I want so I just basically ran Audessy via the Marantz AV7005 and left it as is. I don't have enough experience yet with fooling around with the sound so just went with what Audessy 'recommended' I think if I ever heard a real audio setup sounded like it would put me over the edge and I would start upgrading my system even though I'm pretty happy with what I have so far. Been toying around with the idea of having it professionally calibrated. Its my day off so I'm going to pop in Sunshine again, cant get enough of that movie!



You should be in pretty good shape with the default settings for Audyssey, and even with tweaking the differences would probably be subtle. Your set-up is better than the vast majority of people out there, and really, most of the time, above a certain point there are minimal gains to be had, and more than likely, just subjective differences rather than an undeniable improvement.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20123491
> 
> 
> I had a reference Classe player for a while, but sold it off once I ripped everything to Apple Lossless and connected a Mac Mini to my system. I really just want a nicer BD player, and the Denon I have on order also happens to play SACD, which is just a small side bonus for me for the occasional times that I want to listen to music in that format



I see. I have my complete CD archive ripped to WindowsMedia (WMA's). I will probably stream directly through my Marantz AV7005 via-etherNET.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20123491
> 
> 
> As for the Marantz, since I will only be using the player as a transport, connected digitally to the my Denon AVR, I see no benefit by going with that particular unit in my system. I would be surprised if internally it isn't identical to the Denon 2012, and it is $100 more. One guy in the Denon 2012 player thread said he thought the Marantz might have better grade caps in it. Even if this is true, that has to do with the analog output stage, which I won't be using. If you will be though, it could be worth the small premium. It looks like both this player and the Denon are due out next month (4/8/11 according to Crutchfield)



I'm very curious to see how these two "sister" products pan out once released, how reliable they are ultimately. This represents a first for D&M Holdings- a new player design based on production sharing. I have a feeling they (D&M) put a major effort to make sure design/operation is clean, as their reputation is relying on this moderatly priced, high-performance, product.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20123491
> 
> 
> The Oppo is another great choice, but again, for me, the functionality of the Denon player provides all that I need, and when combined with the case that matches my AVR, this puts it in the lead for my choice



yeah, it's nice to have matching Denon products with common functionality. Would be nice if it had DenonLink (but I guess you would'nt have major need for it).


Anyway, I did it, I ordered an Oppo BDP-95. So now I have my "two-box" solution







If the Oppo exhibits any flakey behavior I will return it and jump back for the Marantz UD7006 (I have this "sneaky" suspicion that this player will be good).


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/20127131
> 
> 
> I see. I have my complete CD archive ripped to WindowsMedia (WMA's). I will probably stream directly through my Marantz AV7005 via-etherNET.



Interesting idea. I wonder if that is possible on the Denon AVR I have and if it would sound any better / worse than a toslink out from the Mac Mini. When you say stream directly, will you be hard wiring from your PC to the 7005 then? No wireless device between them?


Speaking of trying to get better sound from my Mac Mini, I'm going to try out this low jitter device. I'm not convinced that jitter is audible (unless it is grossly out of whack), but it should be an interesting experiment.

http://www.halidedesign.com/bridge/ 












> Quote:
> I'm very curious to see how these two "sister" products pan out once released, how reliable they are ultimately. This represents a first for D&M Holdings- a new player design based on production sharing. I have a feeling they (D&M) put a major effort to make sure design/operation is clean, as their reputation is relying on this moderatly priced, high-performance, product.



Is this really the first shared player from them? The've been under the same parent company for so long that I would have figured that the sharing would have already happened by now.



> Quote:
> yeah, it's nice to have matching Denon products with common functionality. Would be nice if it had DenonLink (but I guess you would'nt have major need for it).
> 
> 
> Anyway, I did it, I ordered an Oppo BDP-95. So now I have my "two-box" solution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the Oppo exhibits any flakey behavior I will return it and jump back for the Marantz UD7006 (I have this "sneaky" suspicion that this player will be good).



Best of luck. I'm sure it will work out fine for ya.


----------



## WestCoastD

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Interesting idea. I wonder if that is possible on the Denon AVR I have and if it would sound any better / worse than a toslink out from the Mac Mini. When you say stream directly, will you be hard wiring from your PC to the 7005 then? No wireless device between them?
yeah, I have no experience doing digital-optical OUT to PC or MAC for streaming audio files. Could'nt elaborate on quality/comparison, but would like to experiment one day.


The AV7005 allows you to connect directly from etherNET port to PC, or network (via router or wireless bridge). It lets you play via your home network (LAN) music files stored on a computer and music content such as that from Internet radio. You can also operate this unit from a computer using the Web control function.


From there you can send audio files (WMA, MP3, WAV, etc.,...) using Windows Media Player Network Sharing Service, or Windows Media DRM10. Also when a WMA (Windows Media Audio), MP3 or MPEG-4 AAC file includes album art data, the album art can be displayed while the music files are playing.


I thought the newer Denon AVR's have similiar capability?

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Speaking of trying to get better sound from my Mac Mini, I'm going to try out this low jitter device. I'm not convinced that jitter is audible (unless it is grossly out of whack), but it should be an interesting experiment
this [is] very interesting. Let me know how effective it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Is this really the first shared player from them? The've been under the same parent company for so long that I would have figured that the sharing would have already happened by now
Of course Denon and Marantz have shared developments for quite a while now. But, from what I understand, these shared developments were mostly just basic "skeleton" piece's of architecture platform- ie. DSP framework, etc.,.. But each team (Denon and Marantz), while under the same "roof", still function autonomously- they implement their own designs within their respective product lines. For example Denon employ's AL24/AL32 (up-sampling), while Marantz uses HDAM (analog discrete circuitry configuration). They really are two separate development groups.


However on these new releases, DBP-2012UDCI and UD7006, it seems both are exact equal production developments, only different "skin" to denote each brand. There may be a few subtle differences? I'm not sure? And are targeted for particular price range. I believe there are a few AVR models developed in the same manner, just separate "skins", but exact same physical design details/features.


----------



## chjo100

Hi Tim,


Good to see you are fighting the good fight. I didn't expect you would be trying a USB to S/PDIF converter to improve fidelity but I'm very curious to see what you find out. There are a lot of those converters now and I wonder if they vary in quality from one another.


BTW I finally got the opportunity to hear the Revel Ultima Salon II. What an impressive speaker! You were spot on, just pin point imaging, huge sound stage which didn't waver, and very coherent from top to bottom. I would consider it a textbook speaker. Despite that, I felt disconnected from the music and felt it was slightly sharp and found myself wincing as I heard some pronounced sibilance. Overall, great speaker though and reminded me in someways of the Vivid speakers. I can imagine it paired with some ARC gear for an absolutely stunning sound.


I didn't get to listen for long so I want to go back and check it out again. Wanna go? They also have a very impressive ht setup with Wisdom speakers and would like to hear that at some point.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20131036
> 
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> 
> Good to see you are fighting the good fight. I didn't expect you would be trying a USB to S/PDIF converter to improve fidelity but I'm very curious to see what you find out. There are a lot of those converters now and I wonder if they vary in quality from one another.
> 
> 
> BTW I finally got the opportunity to hear the Revel Ultima Salon II. What an impressive speaker! You were spot on, just pin point imaging, huge sound stage which didn't waver, and very coherent from top to bottom. I would consider it a textbook speaker. Despite that, I felt disconnected from the music and felt it was slightly sharp and found myself wincing as I heard some pronounced sibilance. Overall, great speaker though and reminded me in someways of the Vivid speakers. I can imagine it paired with some ARC gear for an absolutely stunning sound.
> 
> 
> I didn't get to listen for long so I want to go back and check it out again. Wanna go? They also have a very impressive ht setup with Wisdom speakers and would like to hear that at some point.



Yeah, count me in on the speaker demos any time you go.










As for the USB to SPDIF converter, it is a bit unusual for me to even consider this sort of thing, but it has a 60 day trial period, so there is nothing to lose. It will also give me the opportunity to isolate the potential affect of jitter on sound quality, since lowering jitter is really the only thing this device claims to do. Whereas if I had gone with a async DAC, or a different source of some sort, there are a whole host of components in them that could be responsible for what ever changes I might hear. Thinking back on it all, the only reason I started down this path is that I've been wondering if I should pop for the Denon DBP-4010 BD player with "Denon Link" (a connection that syncs the digital clocks of the player and AVR to reduce jitter). I ultimately decided not to because it would useless in reducing jitter from my main music source, the Mac. However, if the Halide converter does make a marked improvement to the sound, I might give further consideration to the 4010 to maximize the sound quality for movies. Its a bit more than I want to spend though.


FWIW - I did try the Bel Canto USB Link back when I had my previous Mac Mini connected to the Classe SSP, and I felt it added a slight amount of electronic etch to the sound. Pretty slight overall, but enough for me to prefer the sound without it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/20131035
> 
> 
> yeah, I have no experience doing digital-optical OUT to PC or MAC for streaming audio files. Could'nt elaborate on quality/comparison, but would like to experiment one day.
> 
> 
> The AV7005 allows you to connect directly from etherNET port to PC, or network (via router or wireless bridge). It lets you play via your home network (LAN) music files stored on a computer and music content such as that from Internet radio. You can also operate this unit from a computer using the Web control function.
> 
> 
> From there you can send audio files (WMA, MP3, WAV, etc.,...) using Windows Media Player Network Sharing Service, or Windows Media DRM10. Also when a WMA (Windows Media Audio), MP3 or MPEG-4 AAC file includes album art data, the album art can be displayed while the music files are playing.
> 
> 
> I thought the newer Denon AVR's have similiar capability?



I think the Denon I have does allow for this sort of functionality too, but I've never tried it, in large part due to the poor ease of use of the Denon interface for streaming music from a computer. Its like using DOS.







Much easier to use iTunes, MUCH easier.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20131036
> 
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> 
> BTW I finally got the opportunity to hear the Revel Ultima Salon II. What an impressive speaker! You were spot on, just pin point imaging, huge sound stage which didn't waver, and very coherent from top to bottom. I would consider it a textbook speaker. Despite that, I felt disconnected from the music and felt it was slightly sharp and found myself wincing as I heard some pronounced sibilance. Overall, great speaker though and reminded me in someways of the Vivid speakers. I can imagine it paired with some ARC gear for an absolutely stunning sound.



Forgot to comment on this part. Yup, spot on. Technically impressive, but a bit dry, sharp and clinical.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Slavikk* /forum/post/20131432
> 
> 
> What store(s) do you go to to listen to the higher end speakers and audio gear?



As Tim may tell you, I visit these store way too often







Much less now but I do like to meet the folks and get to know what they carry and how the rooms sound. We are fortunate to have a few locally to us.


There is Definitive Audio which carries Wilson, B&W, Magnepan, Meridian in addition to equipment from Classe, Rotel, Audio Research and Linn.


I like Resolution Audio Video down in the Freemont area. They have some exotic brands like Vandersteen, Avalon, and carry Pass Labs gear.


There is of course Magnolia Hi Fi, which has Sonus Faber, Martin Logan and McIntosh Gear.


A newer one, more suited to video is Madrona Digital. But they do have a pair of Revels up front connected to a Berkeley Alpha Dac.


There a few more, like Nuts about Hifi, TuneHiFi, Speakerlab (soundlab? I can never remember) but I'm most familiar with the ones I listed above.


Plus i like to visit shops whenever I travel.


----------



## ddgtr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20129132
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Speaking of trying to get better sound from my Mac Mini, I'm going to try out this low jitter device. I'm not convinced that jitter is audible (unless it is grossly out of whack), but it should be an interesting experiment.
> 
> http://www.halidedesign.com/bridge/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this device. I have a similar one, which is a John Kenny modified M2Tech hiFace. My main thing was being able to bypass the Windows kernel and get a bit perfect signal to my dac without worrying of what Windows might do to the sound.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20131657
> 
> 
> It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this device. I have a similar one, which is a John Kenny modified M2Tech hiFace. My main thing was being able to bypass the Windows kernel and get a bit perfect signal to my dac without worrying of what Windows might do to the sound.



Thankfully with a Mac, you don't have to work around the sound mixer to get bit perfect sound. As long as the EQ and "sound check" (volume leveler) are off, and you don't choose to upconvert to a higher sampling rate, all the bits go out the way they came in.


The Halide converter purchase for me is to see if the quality of the digital signal output from the Mac can be improved. I don't have high hopes, but it would be nice to be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20133025
> 
> 
> Thankfully with a Mac...



You getting some McIntosh mono-blocks, hifi? Oh wait, you mean Mac as in the Apple variety.


----------



## roadster-s




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20133116
> 
> 
> You getting some McIntosh mono-blocks, hifi? Oh wait, you mean Mac as in the Apple variety.




Now that is funny







shows how far away from hi-fi this is getting...


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roadster-s* /forum/post/20142435
> 
> 
> Now that is funny
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shows how far away from hi-fi this is getting...



How far away what is getting from hi-fi? Are you still using only a disc player for delivering your music?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20133116
> 
> 
> You getting some McIntosh mono-blocks, hifi? Oh wait, you mean Mac as in the Apple variety.



Nope no more refrigerator-sized amps for me.


Had these for a while, and I can't say that I understand the need for such things.


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20143745
> 
> 
> How far away what is getting from hi-fi? Are you still using only a disc player for delivering your music?



music on discs is so last century...


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20144299
> 
> 
> Nope no more refrigerator-sized amps for me.
> 
> 
> Had these for a while, and I can't say that I understand the need for such things.



Where'd you hide those when you had 'em?


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/20148641
> 
> 
> Where'd you hide those when you had 'em?



I think those are behind the little console he has below his television but could be wrong. Tough to hide those Classe beasts, but looks like Tim tried


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20144299
> 
> 
> Nope no more refrigerator-sized amps for me.
> 
> 
> Had these for a while, and I can't say that I understand the need for such things.



What's up, hifi?


I was just teasing and having a little fun.








One can never have too many refrigerator sized amps. They're just so darn cool.


----------



## roadster-s




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/20148636
> 
> 
> music on discs is so last century...



Until the industry actually improves on the SACD format, other sources of digital music will only be for practical reasons, not of higher fidelity reasons. I can respect those who are willing to give something up to get something else in return though. It's all good


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20144299
> 
> 
> Nope no more refrigerator-sized amps for me. Had these for a while, and I can't say that I understand the need for such things



are those the 400W per monoblock variety? How could you let those go?


----------



## ddgtr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roadster-s* /forum/post/20149357
> 
> 
> Until the industry actually improves on the SACD format, other sources of digital music will only be for practical reasons, not of higher fidelity reasons. I can respect those who are willing to give something up to get something else in return though. It's all good



Properly implemented streaming systems can be at least as "high fidelity" as SACD.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/20148641
> 
> 
> Where'd you hide those when you had 'em?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20148922
> 
> 
> I think those are behind the little console he has below his television but could be wrong. Tough to hide those Classe beasts, but looks like Tim tried



Yup, stuffed those monsters behind the console you see under my TV. They would have had to have been mind blowing to keep them. And well, they aren't here any longer. . .











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20149302
> 
> 
> What's up, hifi?
> 
> 
> I was just teasing and having a little fun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One can never have too many refrigerator sized amps. They're just so darn cool.



I'd probably of kept them just for the showmanship, and if you have the space and the money for such things, go for it. They were impractical for me.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/20151073
> 
> 
> are those the 400W per monoblock variety? How could you let those go?



Simply put, they did not perform to the level that I expected for the compromises that I would have to make to keep them. (More details in the very first post of this thread.)


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roadster-s* /forum/post/20149357
> 
> 
> Until the industry actually improves on the SACD format, other sources of digital music will only be for practical reasons, not of higher fidelity reasons. I can respect those who are willing to give something up to get something else in return though. It's all good



I respect your perspective, but I've put my time and my money into the components that I've found to have the greatest impact on sound quality and I don't feel I've given up anything at all in terms of sound quality by using a Mac as a music source / transport. I also don't think that SACD is the sound quality standard to beat. I own well recorded CD's that sound just as good as any SACD, and I've got a few SACDs that are poorly recorded. I believe that the only reason that SACD sounds better than CD overall, is that the standard of quality for these recordings is higher overall. If you feel high rez recordings are necessary, there are a good handfull of high-rez download sites, and these will only grow as we move further away from disc based formats.


----------



## Giraffe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> i respect your perspective, but i've put my time and my money into the components that i've found to have the greatest impact on sound quality and i don't feel i've given up anything at all in terms of sound quality by using a mac as a music source / transport. I also don't think that sacd is the sound quality standard to beat. I own well recorded cd's that sound just as good as any sacd, and i've got a few sacds that are poorly recorded. I believe that the only reason that sacd sounds better than cd overall, is that the standard of quality for these recordings is higher overall. If you feel high rez recordings are necessary, there are a good handfull of high-rez download sites, and these will only grow as we move further away from disc based formats.



+1


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20156633
> 
> 
> i respect your perspective, but i've put my time and my money into the components that i've found to have the greatest impact on sound quality and i don't feel i've given up anything at all in terms of sound quality by using a mac as a music source / transport. I also don't think that sacd is the sound quality standard to beat. I own well recorded cd's that sound just as good as any sacd, and i've got a few sacds that are poorly recorded. I believe that the only reason that sacd sounds better than cd overall, is that the standard of quality for these recordings is higher overall. If you feel high rez recordings are necessary, there are a good handfull of high-rez download sites, and these will only grow as we move further away from disc based formats.



+1.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20156573
> 
> 
> Yup, stuffed those monsters behind the console you see under my TV. They would have had to have been mind blowing to keep them. And well, they aren't here any longer. . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd probably of kept them just for the showmanship, and if you have the space and the money for such things, go for it. They were impractical for me.



C'mon, hifi. I know deep down inside, burns the heart of a separates man, and big freakin' amplifiers. Viva la separates!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20163719
> 
> 
> C'mon, hifi. I know deep down inside, burns the heart of a separates man, and big freakin' amplifiers. Viva la separates!



That stack of stylishly modern and high-tech looking Classe separates I used to own was truly a thing of beauty, as is your wall of McIntosh gear, but when you strip away all of the extruded aluminum casing and dancing meters, is what they provide really worth the outlay? Maybe, sort of, sometimes... but I wish the answer were a unanimous and resounding YES!


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20164812
> 
> 
> That stack of stylishly modern and high-tech looking Classe separates I used to own was truly a thing of beauty, as is your wall of McIntosh gear, but when you strip away all of the extruded aluminum casing and dancing meters, is what they provide really worth the outlay? Maybe, sort of, sometimes... but I wish the answer were a unanimous and resounding YES!



Alright. Who are you and what have you done with Tim? I think the Aliens have done abducted hifi.







No worries, my lil' green body snatcher. I will keep the separates torches burning for when the "real" hifi escapes your "all-in-one-box" clutches and returns to amps the size of fridges glory! Viva la separates!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20172678
> 
> 
> Alright. Who are you and what have you done with Tim? I think the Aliens have done abducted hifi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No worries, my lil' green body snatcher. I will keep the separates torches burning for when the "real" hifi escapes your "all-in-one-box" clutches and returns to amps the size of fridges glory! Viva la separates!



LOL!


I know it seems like I've had a change of heart, or that I've been abducted by aliens and replaced with a guy that looks like Tim but really isn't Tim







, but all of that gear you see on the front page of this thread represents as much agony as it does pleasure, maybe more.


It started off with a simple enough goal; to improve my system by leapfrogging up the food chain from "mid-fi" to almost a cost-no-object system. You would think that one would be guaranteed success by going from say a $2200 pair of Paradigm monitors to a set of $13,000 Focal 1037Be towers, but the truth is, I found the Focals almost unbearable to listen to at times.


When it came to high end electronics, the outcome was just the opposite. So many of them sound so much the gawd damn same!







Dedicated reference CD players, high end processors, big ass amps, I tried them all. On a good day there is maybe a 15% difference between them. At least to these must be tin ears.







However, your McGear and a lot of the tubed gear out there are unique. I can hear the differences they make fairly easily, so your system is the exception, and I'll let you off the hook.







But I bet if you were to replace that Denon AVP with a 1/5th the price Marantz, the sound might change a bit, but it aint gonna turn to ****.


And you found out first hand that you really didn't need those Wireworld cables to get great sound. So it really just depends how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.


Audio is a funny hobby. With just about every other piece of tech, we accept that things become smaller, better, faster, cheaper. With most audiophiles, it is all backwards. Record players supposedly sound the best, and only when run through stacks of antiquated electronics. Go figure.










For me, the piece pictured below is the direction I want to see things go.


Devialet D-Premier










No, it's not a bathroom scale, it's a high-tech, high power amp, DAC and preamp all in one. Its too damn expensive, but I like the goal they are after.


With that said, if you or anyone else wants to stack amplifiers to the ceiling with speakers sized to match, go for it. Have fun!










Seriously, we all take different paths through this hobby, and thats what makes it interesting.


----------



## roadster-s




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *waboman* /forum/post/20172678
> 
> 
> alright. I will keep the separates torches burning for when the "real" hifi escapes your "all-in-one-box" clutches!



+1


----------



## roadster-s




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20173078
> 
> 
> Seriously, we all take different paths through this hobby, and thats what makes it interesting.



hey! that's one thing we do agree on


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20173078
> 
> 
> LOL!
> 
> 
> I know it seems like I've had a change of heart, or that I've been abducted by aliens and replaced with a guy that looks like Tim but really isn't Tim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , but all of that gear you see on the front page of this thread represents as much agony as it does pleasure, maybe more.
> 
> 
> It started off with a simple enough goal; to improve my system by leapfrogging up the food chain from "mid-fi" to almost a cost-no-object system. You would think that one would be guaranteed success by going from say a $2200 pair of Paradigm monitors to a set of $13,000 Focal 1037Be towers, but the truth is, I found the Focals almost unbearable to listen to at times.
> 
> 
> When it came to high end electronics, the outcome was just the opposite. So many of them sound so much the gawd damn same!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dedicated reference CD players, high end processors, big ass amps, I tried them all. On a good day there is maybe a 15% difference between them. At least to these must be tin ears.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, your McGear and a lot of the tubed gear out there are unique. I can hear the differences they make fairly easily, so your system is the exception, and I'll let you off the hook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I bet if you were to replace that Denon AVP with a 1/5th the price Marantz, the sound might change a bit, but it aint gonna turn to ****.
> 
> 
> And you found out first hand that you really didn't need those Wireworld cables to get great sound. So it really just depends how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.
> 
> 
> Audio is a funny hobby. With just about every other piece of tech, we accept that things become smaller, better, faster, cheaper. With most audiophiles, it is all backwards. Record players supposedly sound the best, and only when run through stacks of antiquated electronics. Go figure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me, the piece pictured below is the direction I want to see things go.
> 
> 
> Devialet D-Premier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's not a bathroom scale, it's a high-tech, high power amp, DAC and preamp all in one. Its too damn expensive, but I like the goal they are after.
> 
> 
> With that said, if you or anyone else wants to stack amplifiers to the ceiling with speakers sized to match, go for it. Have fun!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, we all take different paths through this hobby, and thats what makes it interesting.



I've been really intrigued by the Devialet. Expensive but *if* it's a reference level dac, preamp and amplifier, the prices seems in line with the rest of the industry (which we know is completely practical







To have it all in one package and not worry about system matching would be a wonderful convenience. But in the end I think if i were to pay that amount, I would like a separates system. I guess I'm a separates man


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *roadster-s* 
hey! that's one thing we do agree on








Yeah, if you are into the audiophile status quo, there is a lot to disagree with in this thread.


Try pushing your boundaries, challenging convention, and take part in some objective listening. We may have more to talk about then... Or maybe not.


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *chjo100* 
I've been really intrigued by the Devialet. Expensive but *if* it's a reference level dac, preamp and amplifier, the prices seems in line with the rest of the industry (which we know is completely practical







To have it all in one package and not worry about system matching would be a wonderful convenience. But in the end I think if i were to pay that amount, I would like a separates system. I guess I'm a separates man








Well I know that you like to try out different pieces, and having an all in one would remove an aspect of the hobby that you enjoy, so that makes sense from that perspective. Is that what you were getting at? Or do you feel that having these different components in separate boxes is a requirement for good sound?


FWIW - I have a friend in England that replaced a stack of Chord electronics (including a big-ass separate amp Wabo!







) with the Devialet. That was about a year and a half ago, and he still speaks highly of it.


----------



## roadster-s

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Yeah, if you are into the audiophile status quo, there is a lot to disagree with in this thread.


Try pushing your boundaries, challenging convention, and take part in some objective listening. We may have more to talk about then... Or maybe not.








I have been doing some objective listening, and I simply don't like the digitized signature sound coming out from even the most esoteric ones I've heard. The Montreal audio show is coming up in a few weeks, so I'll be sampling dozens of system configurations once more. I'll let my ears do the judging as usual. I still dissagree with your statement of most CD's sounding as good as SACD's. Hybrid discs offer such an obvious demonstration that it's not the case.


But please, continue writing about your experiences and changes, I'll still continue being an avid reader of this thread. I simply don't wish to hyjack it from it's objective. It's all good


----------



## 7ryder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20174431
> 
> 
> I've been really intrigued by the Devialet. Expensive but *if* it's a reference level dac, preamp and amplifier, the prices seems in line with the rest of the industry (which we know is completely practical
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To have it all in one package and not worry about system matching would be a wonderful convenience. But in the end I think if i were to pay that amount, I would like a separates system. I guess I'm a separates man



I'm intrigued by it too, especially the ADH amps...if I could get my hands on just the amps, I'd ditch these big Parasound JC-1s with their huge power consumption and heat in a minute. As for price, considering it has a DAC and amps, it is not too much more than what it would cost to replace my current amps and DAC, factoring in the savings of reduced utility usage, it would pay for itself pretty quickly. It's great that it has a sub out and it is highly configurable in terms of inputs/outputs, but it doesn't appear that you can configure it for HT bypass, so it wouldn't work in my system very well. EDIT: I take it back, it does have HT bypass mode....uh oh







http://www.devialet.com/support.php 


Nice review here with some comments about CD versus high-rez files!: http://www.avguide.com/review/the-de...ampdac-hifi-75


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roadster-s* /forum/post/20177566
> 
> 
> I have been doing some objective listening, and I simply don't like the digitized signature sound *coming out from even the most esoteric ones* I've heard. The Montreal audio show is coming up in a few weeks, so I'll be sampling dozens of system configurations once more. I'll let my ears do the judging as usual. I still dissagree with your statement of most CD's sounding as good as SACD's. Hybrid discs offer such an obvious demonstration that it's not the case.
> 
> 
> But please, continue writing about your experiences and changes, I'll still continue being an avid reader of this thread. I simply don't wish to hyjack it from it's objective. It's all good



I'm sorry, the digitized signature sound of what? Using a PC as a source? Or CD's vs. SACD?


Just to be clear, I didn't say that I felt that most CDs sound as good as SACD, I said that when a CD is well recorded and care has been put into the master, it can to my ears sound as good as SACD or any other higher res format. There are plenty of recordings on CD out there that are not high fidelity in the least.


I haven't had an SACD player in a while, but I will be getting a universal player in the next few weeks. I would like to listen to some of the SACDs dual discs that you feel clearly show a difference in sound quality between the CD layer and the SACD layer. Can I get the titles from you and what it is you feel is better about the SACD version? I'm not calling you to task, I am really just curious to see if I can hear what you hear.


I also want to reiterate, that I would be the first person to pay virtually whatever it takes for whatever piece of technology is needed for the best possible sound. It has just been my experience over the years that a lot of what I've tried didn't amount to much (excluding speakers, set-up, room treatment, and DSP signal processing / EQ). In a way, I've envious of those in the hobby that do feel they hear significant enough differences between things like DACs, players, formats, etc. because in my world, despite my strong interest in audio, my options to improve the sound are more limited than I would like.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7ryder* /forum/post/20178146
> 
> 
> I'm intrigued by it too, especially the ADH amps...if I could get my hands on just the amps, I'd ditch these big Parasound JC-1s with their huge power consumption and heat in a minute. As for price, considering it has a DAC and amps, it is not too much more than what it would cost to replace my current amps and DAC, factoring in the savings of reduced utility usage, it would pay for itself pretty quickly. It's great that it has a sub out and it is highly configurable in terms of inputs/outputs, but it doesn't appear that you can configure it for HT bypass, so it wouldn't work in my system very well. EDIT: I take it back, it does have HT bypass mode....uh oh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.devialet.com/support.php
> 
> 
> Nice review here with some comments about CD versus high-rez files!: http://www.avguide.com/review/the-de...ampdac-hifi-75



Yes, it has a RCA analog input for HT bypass! What is cool is that some of the RCA plugs can be reassigned to do different things (change to digital input etc...). Pretty innovative device. I was told they won't come out with a stand alone amplifier for those that want to match there amplifier for HT with the Devialet, but I'm sure if the demand was there and profit to be made, they would pursue it.


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20177258
> 
> 
> Well I know that you like to try out different pieces, and having an all in one would remove an aspect of the hobby that you enjoy, so that makes sense from that perspective. Is that what you were getting at? Or do you feel that having these different components in separate boxes is a requirement for good sound?
> 
> 
> FWIW - I have a friend in England that replaced a stack of Chord electronics (including a big-ass separate amp Wabo!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) with the Devialet. That was about a year and a half ago, and he still speaks highly of it.



I do like them shiny audio gear







I can honestly say that for me, beyond the gear, it is ultimately about trying to have my music sound completely natural, which probably means different things to different people. Based on our conversations I think we share much of what the ideal type of sound is. So if the Devialet did achieve that or did it better than separates I would completely be open to it and get one. But I think my point is that if all things being equal, I can have this beautiful all in one versus a impressive looking separates system, I would opt for the latter simply for vanity reasons. Plus when people ask me how much system costs, instead of pointing to my one shiny toaster I can point to my landscape of shiny metallic audio minions (amps, preamp, dac) and justify my absurd audio spending over several pieces.


For the record I don't think it's necessary to have separates and was very very close to pulling the trigger on the Devialet


----------



## moonhawk

How much is the Devialet?


----------



## roadster-s

Tim,


the digitized signature sound I refer to is how ''I'' hear PC based music. As for hybrid discs, you can look at most any offerings from MoFi, Telarc, APO, Linn and many others. I own 1,100+ SACD's, so the list of good examples is quite extensive (just ask Kal)


Organic, extended, analogue like sound is how I can best resume the difference between both layers (or formats). Although I still have the highest respect for the sound of a masterful LP spinning on an esoteric turntable, SACD remains my digital reference of choice (practicality and lack of maintenance being obvious advantages also).


I know that digital power amps have come a long, long way since they were first introduced, so I have no doubt PC sourced music is the way of the future, just not for me...yet


----------



## ddgtr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/20180069
> 
> 
> How much is the Devialet?




About $18k.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20180054
> 
> 
> I do like them shiny audio gear
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can honestly say that for me, beyond the gear, it is ultimately about trying to have my music sound completely natural, which probably means different things to different people. Based on our conversations I think we share much of what the ideal type of sound is. So if the Devialet did achieve that or did it better than separates I would completely be open to it and get one. But I think my point is that if all things being equal, I can have this beautiful all in one versus a impressive looking separates system, I would opt for the latter simply for vanity reasons. Plus when people ask me how much system costs, instead of pointing to my one shiny toaster I can point to my landscape of shiny metallic audio minions (amps, preamp, dac) and justify my absurd audio spending over several pieces.
> 
> 
> For the record I don't think it's necessary to have separates and was very very close to pulling the trigger on the Devialet



LOL. I appreciate your honesty. Vanity / bragging rights was a large part of the reason that I bought the Classe stack.










I like both approaches, as I think there is something that much more impressive when phenomenal performance comes from a small package. Hence my preference for sub / standmounts.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roadster-s* /forum/post/20180089
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> 
> the digitized signature sound I refer to is how ''I'' hear PC based music. As for hybrid discs, you can look at most any offerings from MoFi, Telarc, APO, Linn and many others. I own 1,100+ SACD's, so the list of good examples is quite extensive (just ask Kal)
> 
> 
> Organic, extended, analogue like sound is how I can best resume the difference between both layers (or formats). Although I still have the highest respect for the sound of a masterful LP spinning on an esoteric turntable, SACD remains my digital reference of choice (practicality and lack of maintenance being obvious advantages also).
> 
> 
> I know that digital power amps have come a long, long way since they were first introduced, so I have no doubt PC sourced music is the way of the future, just not for me...yet



Thanks for the clarification. As with just about everything in this hobby, there is much controversy about the affect of a digital transport on the final sound quality, and as I'm sure you would have guessed, I'm not one that hears a difference between them. It seems that you may.


But one piece of common ground we have is what we consider good sound. I too want a "organic" and "analogue" sound, though it is entirely possible that our perception of what sounds real when played through a hi-fi system is still different.


Can I get at least one SACD artist and album name from you so we have a common point of reference?


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20180128
> 
> 
> About $18k.



Thanks. Steep, but not insane steep. If it does what it says it does as well as it says it does it, probably not bad at all.


Sad to see it's only two channel,though, but at least it does subs. But only if you have the right inputs on the sub.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20177258
> 
> 
> FWIW - I have a friend in England that replaced a stack of Chord electronics (including a big-ass separate amp Wabo!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) with the Devialet. That was about a year and a half ago, and he still speaks highly of it.



Lol. You know those British, always driving on the wrong side of the road.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/20180069
> 
> 
> How much is the Devialet?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20180128
> 
> 
> About $18k.



$18k for a bath scale!







Elizabeth, it's the big one. I'm comin' to see ya.







I dunno. Sounds like Bose marketing. Throw in some headphones and call it the Devi-a-mass.


----------



## roadster-s




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20181107
> 
> 
> Can I get at least one SACD artist and album name from you so we have a common point of reference?



1) Patricia Barber's SACD pressings from Mobile Fidelity are ''THE'' references, but have been out of print for a while now ($200-$300 each on the used market







)


2) Vilvaldi's The Four Seasons (Telarc item SACD-60698) expresses all the instrument's textures extremely well.


3) ELP's Brain salad surgery SACD disc is lightyears ahead of the CD discs included in the same set (same studio source used to transfer).


But if you can get your hands on one of MoFi's Patricia Barber (Verse, Modern Cool, Nightclub) ahhh...auditive nirvana!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20181759
> 
> 
> Lol. You know those British, always driving on the wrong side of the road.



LOL. You are a man devoted to your cause.










The only direction for you to go is here.

*The Magico Ultimate*









The Magico Ultimate loudspeakers are eight-feet tall and weigh more than 800 pounds each. In this particular picture, they don't use a mono-block amp to power each speaker, they use a mono-block amp to power each driver! These aren't just separates..... they are S-E-P-A-R-A-T-E-S!!!!.


----------



## Frohlich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20183153
> 
> 
> LOL. You are a man devoted to your cause.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only direction for you to go is here.
> 
> *The Magico Ultimate*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Magico Ultimate loudspeakers are eight-feet tall and weigh more than 800 pounds each. In this particular picture, they don't use a mono-block amp to power each speaker, they use a mono-block amp to power each driver! These aren't just separates..... they are S-E-P-A-R-A-T-E-S!!!!.



As a rule of thumb I won't use speakers under 10 feet tall and weighing at least 1000lbs...that's just how I role


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frohlich* /forum/post/20183456
> 
> 
> As a rule of thumb I won't use speakers under 10 feet tall and weighing at least 1000lbs...that's just how I role



So then you own a set of these?











I think the satellite speakers are adequate, but their bass modules are not quite up to the task, so I would supplement them with one of these to get decent bottom end.


----------



## Frohlich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20183695
> 
> 
> So then you own a set of these?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the satellite speakers are adequate, but their bass modules are not quite up to the task, so I would supplement them with one of these to get decent bottom end.



Those are "OK" and I use them in my garage for my "second" system. Here is a link to entry way to my HT room where my real set-up is 

http://futuremusic.com/news/images/m..._subwoofer.jpg


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frohlich* /forum/post/20183867
> 
> 
> Those are "OK" and I use them in my garage for my "second" system. Here is a link to entry way to my HT room where my real set-up is
> 
> http://futuremusic.com/news/images/m..._subwoofer.jpg



I dunno, I might put those in my Escalade, but I don't think they are really audiophile quality.


----------



## Frohlich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20184068
> 
> 
> I dunno, I might put those in my Escalade, but I don't think they are really audiophile quality.



Tiger Woods borrowed my escalade and I haven't seen it since. Wonder what happened to it


----------



## hifisponge

A funny thing happened recently. I've been mattress shopping over the past few days and I find that there are a surprising number of similarities between this business and the audio business. Yup, mattresses (which at least makes the perspective I'm about to share different than the typical car analogy







). Or maybe I'm still so obsessed with this hobby that it permeates all aspects of my life?










It started with the usual online research I was doing to help me make an informed decision. I found an article on consumer reports and a similar one on an Australian web site and they both said pretty much the same thing: there is virtually no correlation between price and perceived comfort and there is no universally loved mattress. It is entirely possible that someone will like mid-line mattress better than a luxury model, in terms of comfort anyway. The more expensive mattress might be covered in silk, be hand tufted, and have more impressive specs (higher coil count, individually wrapped coils, titanium vs. steel coils, etc.), but the design of the mid-line mattress and the high-end mattress are essentially the same. The mark up at retail for mattresses is also ridiculous. Sound familiar?










When my wife and I went to the mattress store to test out some beds, sure enough, we ended up liking the feel of a Simmons mid-line model over the high-end, double-the-price model by the same maker (and other makers fro that matter). I actually liked a mid-line Sealy a bit better than the Simmons, but I folded to my wife's choice (yes, WAF is ever present in mattress choices too







). We also tried out a couple of Tempurpedic beds, which happens to be the most highly rated brand according to a Consumer Reports consumer survey, but neither of us liked them at all. What I found somewhat surprising and refreshing was the honesty of the salesman. He was an elderly gentleman that echoed much of what was reported by Consumer Reports and admitted that the luxury beds have better specs and materials, but they aren't necessarily going to feel any better than a mid-line bed. Sounds a lot like one of my first gambles in high-end audio. I bought a set of high-tech and very expensive Focal speakers with multilayer cones made of glass and metallic space-age foam, Beryllium tweets, and cabinets wrapped a very exotic Macassar ebony veneer and automotive paint. These speakers were the equivalent of the Tempurpedic mattress to me. Some innovative tech, gorgeously built, but I could hardly stand listening to them.


Interestingly, even the process of selecting a bed suggested by the salesman is exactly how I go about selecting speakers in a retail showroom-- compare only two at a time, discarding the loser each time until there is a final choice. What's interesting is that it is a very relative process. We started by laying on a firm mattress and compared that to a slightly softer model which felt significantly better, but comparing that one to a slightly softer model now made the previous one feel too firm. When speaker shopping at the store, the effect is much the same. If you start off with a really bright speaker, just about anything else is going to bring relief, but it may still actually be too bright and not the right fit for the long term.


I've been intentionally keeping this comparison between mid-line and high-end mattresses because I believe the mid-line is the point of diminishing return, just as I find to hold true in audio. And just like audio, I think that the inexpensive mattress models are probably intentionally made less comfortable to push the consumer into the higher lines. The Sealy brand, for instance, uses the same spring system in all of their models, only changing the number of layers of foam and the type of foam laid over the springs to change the feel to something more or less comfortable. The more comfortable and more expensive mid-line beds probably don't cost any more to make.


Bed construction really hasn't changed much since its inception, it has only incrementally evolved, but again there is no guarantee that the new materials or advanced construction of new beds will make for a more subjectively comfortable bed. Likewise, most speakers are still using a dynamic driver concept evolved from a design originated in the late 1800's. Despite the introduction of diamond, titanium, beryllium 24 bit and 32 bit DACs, etc, I've found very little correlation between the equipment I like and the technology it uses, the construction or the price asked. Depending on the execution of the design, the 16 bit DAC may sound subjectively better (or often times in my case, no different) than the 32 bit model and a soft dome better than diamond.


I can't say that the mattress we decided on yesterday is any better than the mattress we bought new 10 years ago (other than the fact out current mattress is worn out), and I can't say that the best audio systems I've heard in recent years is really any better than best I heard 10 years ago. Back then I also found that the sweet spot was in upper mid-line gear and I still do today.


In the end, as they say, perception is reality, and which sound system each of us finds pleasing is going to be different, even if that pleasure is derived from things unrelated to the actual audio quality of a given piece. But I still think it is wise to challenge our preconceived notions about what is really necessary for good sound and whether or not the high-end piece really offers more than just prestige and pride of ownership, or if that sound signature you are after can be obtained by a move sideways rather than up.








Cheers, and Happy Listening!


----------



## jnnt29

That is a very interesting theory. I think you can see that in any type of product that you may currently own and plan to replace. I agree with your analogy. JT


----------



## hifisponge

True. I think it applies even more to luxury goods in general, which is what a good portion of high-end audio amounts to.... in my experience. YMMV.


----------



## roadster-s

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
True. I think it applies even more to luxury goods in general, which is what a good portion of high-end audio amounts to.... in my experience. YMMV.










Just like choosing to own a BMW


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *roadster-s* 
Just like choosing to own a BMW








Exactly.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20183153
> 
> 
> LOL. You are a man devoted to your cause.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only direction for you to go is here.
> 
> *The Magico Ultimate*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Magico Ultimate loudspeakers are eight-feet tall and weigh more than 800 pounds each. In this particular picture, they don't use a mono-block amp to power each speaker, they use a mono-block amp to power each driver! These aren't just separates..... they are S-E-P-A-R-A-T-E-S!!!!.



Alright, now we're making progress.










Viva la separates!


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20201752
> 
> 
> A funny thing happened recently. I've been mattress shopping over the past few days and I find that there are a surprising number of similarities between this business and the audio business. Yup, mattresses (which at least makes the perspective I'm about to share different than the typical car analogy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). Or maybe I'm still so obsessed with this hobby that it permeates all aspects of my life?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, and Happy Listening!



Just make sure you get a separate mattress and box spring. Don't want a receiver all-in-one-box type mattress.







Viva la separates!


----------



## moonhawk

Select Comfort-- better than a Krell....


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20207700
> 
> 
> Just make sure you get a separate mattress and box spring. Don't want a receiver all-in-one-box type mattress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viva la separates!





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/20207717
> 
> 
> Select Comfort-- better than a Krell....



LOL, good job guys.


----------



## cachecoder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Just make sure you get a separate mattress and box spring. Don't want a receiver all-in-one-box type mattress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viva la separates!



Box spring? Nonsense. Just use (warm) amps to support and heat the bed from underneath. This also provides better WAF as she won't put her cold feet on your side of the bed







. Now that's comfort.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cachecoder* /forum/post/20208135
> 
> 
> Box spring? Nonsense. Just use (warm) amps to support and heat the bed from underneath. This also provides better WAF as she won't put her cold feet on your side of the bed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Now that's comfort.



Or place a foundation of subwoofers under the bed for "her pleasure".


----------



## weird 23

What's up Hifi? Redaing some of your posts tonight reminded me that you once had the Paradigm Sigs and Anthem's ARC. I made some changes to my system and am perplexed at some of the results I've been getting. I basically sold everything that I had before and now have the Anthem MRX 700, Paradigm Sig S2 v3, Sig c3 v3, ADP 1 v2's and Sig S1 v3 ( which have not arrived yet ). I'm wondering why some of the high frequency's are rolling off so much in my system. Any idea's why?


----------



## hifisponge

W23 -


The treble looks fine on all but the right surround. Is that surround speaker further away from the listening seat than the other, or is it in an odd position?


----------



## weird 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
W23 -


The treble looks fine on all but the right surround. Is that surround speaker further away from the listening seat than the other, or is it in an odd position?
It's in the same position as my previous speakers, 90 degrees to the listening position. The receiver also set it 3db higher than the other, with my previous ADP's the trim levels were the same. I noticed when running the room correction the test tones were much quieter through that speaker, I bought them used and think that there is something wrong with that speaker. Thanks for the opinion as that's the one that I was worrying about, I'll take it in to the dealer and see what's going on with it. Do you plan on buying the firmware update for your Denon? I'm interested to hear your take on Audyssey XT32.


----------



## hifisponge

W23 -


It looks like one or more of the tweeters on that surround speaker are not functioning. Could be a tweeter, crossover, or wiring problem.


Yes, I will be buying the upgrade for my AVR-5308, specifically for XT32. I don't like 3D (to many compromises in picture quality to get the effect), so that is a not a driving reason for the upgrade for me.


----------



## hifisponge

A while back, I mentioned that I was picking up a few new pieces of gear to help give my rack a bit more audiophile cred, and to satisfy my OCD need for everything to match.










Well two of those things have arrived.


One of these:










And one of these:










The first, the Halide Design Bridge USB to SPDIF converter ($450), promises to reduce the jitter of PC/Mac based audio down to insignificant levels, which according to the Stereophile test bench, it does. However, if it makes an audible difference, it is so subtle as to be insignificant in my system. The crazy thing is, I'm going to keep it anyway. If only because it makes me feel better that system is free of those pesky jitter demons that tend to make us audiophile types uneasy. It's ridiculous rationale, I know, but who ever said this hobby was supposed to always make sense?










The other piece, the PS Audio Power Plant P5, is a frivolously priced ($3000 MSRP) "power conditioner" that only lunatics could justify putting into there system, let alone using it to power a friggin' Denon AVR and a Mac Mini!







I suspect that the audiophile Gods are having a bit of fun with me on this one, because you know what? The damn voodoo in this thing actually works! At least based on today's mood and the current alignment of the stars it does.


I've been using a Belkin PureAV power center while I waited for the P5 to arrive, and I have to say that I noticed a slight hashiness to the sound that I didn't remember being there before, and the sound overall was satisfactory, but not all that remarkable.


With the PS Audio P5 in the mix, the sound is both smoother, yet more detailed. The sound is more open and also more expansive. I've always treasured the expansive sound that WB provides, but that quality had seemed to have faded away until this magic black box re-entered the picture. Now normally, I would chalk this up to be the result of a "new gear high", but I really didn't expect the P5 to do damn thing. I bought it mainly because it looks cool and I need something presentable to plug all of my gear into. More nonsensical justification for blowing $2.5K (street price) on a piece of gear, but hey, the bonus is that it actually kicked the sound quality up a notch. Go figure.


When I owned the PS Audio Power Plant Premier aka PPP (the predecessor to the P5), and connected it to my previous Classe stack, the difference was more subtle. There was a bit better detail retrieval, a "blacker background" to steal a phrase, but not the opening-up of the sound stage. I had to check a couple of times that I didn't have the system in DPL2 surround when I first started listening tonight. I'm guessing the effect was less with the Class gear because the Classe already had good filtering in the power supply? Or maybe, the P5 is actually an improvement over the PPP? I dunno. I don't know that I would necessarily recommend spending $2.5K on this over a better front-end or speakers, but it is something that you should at least check out it you've got the scratch.


Oh, I almost forgot, I also swapped my old Mac Mini for the current model, and damn the new one is sexy, with its solid aluminum housing (ala Ayre components) and black, glossy apple logo peering out the top. I was a bit worried though that it may have been responsible for the slightly edgy / hashy sound I mentioned earlier, because I put it into the system right after I got rid of the PPP.


Pics to come, but I'm not completely done with my system remodel yet. Still waiting on a new Denon Blu-Ray player. Which BTW, I've decided to jump up a level from the BDP-2012 to the reference level BDP-4010, complete with the Denon Link jitter free interface. Begone jitter demons, begone!


----------



## weird 23

Congrats on the new gear Tim. You were right about my right surround speaker, the dealer called me today to inform me one of the tweeters wasn't functioning at all. Thanks for the help, it gave me a good starting point when seeking out the problem. Have you watched Tron Legacy yet? If not it's one of the best soundtracks I've heard in awhile.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/20276242
> 
> 
> Congrats on the new gear Tim. You were right about my right surround speaker, the dealer called me today to inform me one of the tweeters wasn't functioning at all. Thanks for the help, it gave me a good starting point when seeking out the problem. Have you watched Tron Legacy yet? If not it's one of the best soundtracks I've heard in awhile.



Good to hear that our trouble shooting session resulted in a concrete solution. That is atypical in this often illogical hobby.










I saw Tron in the theater, but thanks for the reminder to rent it for HT playback. It does have a great soundtrack, done by the Daft Punk boys.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20276658
> 
> 
> Good to hear that our trouble shooting session resulted in a concrete solution. That is atypical in this often illogical hobby.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I saw Tron in the theater, but thanks for the reminder to rent it for HT playback. It does have a great soundtrack, done by the Daft Punk boys.



My Panasonic bdp finally died earlier this week and I ran across a really good deal on a Denon 1611 UD this afternoon, which I purchased. I know, I know it doesn't match but I had trouble justifying $300 more for the Anthem that does less. Maybe I'll just have to switch to a Denon AVR.







I'm hoping this gives me better performance than the Panasonic which was quite bad. I really like the look and performance of the PS Audio products, I just think that it's totally overkill for my system but you have made me give it serious thought.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20274271
> 
> 
> the PS Audio Power Plant P5, is a frivolously priced ($3000 MSRP) "power conditioner" that only lunatics could justify putting into there system, let alone using it to power a friggin' Denon AVR and a Mac Mini!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that the audiophile Gods are having a bit of fun with me on this one, because you know what? The damn voodoo in this thing actually works! the sound is both smoother, yet more detailed. The sound is more open and also more expansive



I've read moslty very good things about PS Audio conditioners, I really want to get a Power Plant 5 myself.


I'm currently using a Furman Elite-15 PF i conditioner:
http://www.furmansound.com/product.p...id=ELITE-15PFi 


It seems pretty good in general, provides excellent hi-current availability to all components . But I suspect some of my random sibilance may be coming from this unit? I'm not sure?


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/20277520
> 
> 
> I've read moslty very good things about PS Audio conditioners, I really want to get a Power Plant 5 myself.
> 
> 
> I'm currently using a Furman Elite-15 PF i conditioner:
> http://www.furmansound.com/product.p...id=ELITE-15PFi
> 
> 
> It seems pretty good in general, provides excellent hi-current availability to all components . But I suspect some of my random sibilance may be coming from this unit? I'm not sure?



Hey WCD -


I don't pretend to have all the answers, but do have fairly broad exposure to gear, and I've owned both the Furman and your speakers (Monitor Audio GS). I think the PS Audio is a step up from the Furman. In fact, I've found that every power conditioner I've tried other than the PS Audio units did pretty much nothing to the sound. If a P5 at $2500 is too much, you can get the previous gen Power Plant Premier for about half that. Talk to David at Wienhart Designs in CA.



As for the sibilance, I'm pretty sure that is a character of the MA GS speaker. They are wonderfully transparent, detailed, and dynamic, but also sometimes bright / sibilant. Unfortunately, it is hard to find a speaker that doesn't present some sort of trade off, so you may find a set that doesn't emphasize sibilance, but it sounds a bit more boxy, or what have you.


I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but the Vivid Audio speakers come as close as I've heard to capturing all that is good about the MA GS's, with no real trade-offs other than their unconventional appearance.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20277719
> 
> 
> I don't pretend to have all the answers, but do have fairly broad exposure to gear, and I've owned both the Furman and your speakers (Monitor Audio GS). I think the PS Audio is a step up from the Furman. In fact, I've found that every power conditioner I've tried other than the PS Audio units did pretty much nothing to the sound. If a P5 at $2500 is too much, you can get the previous gen Power Plant Premier for about half that. Talk to David at Wienhart Designs in CA



thanks, yeah I'm pretty much sold on the Power Plant 5, seems to be the best choice for complete AV system's. I'm going through a major system re-configuration and I want to switch this major component while I have the chance



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20277719
> 
> 
> I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but the Vivid Audio speakers come as close as I've heard to capturing all that is good about the MA GS's, with no real trade-offs other than their unconventional appearance



did you actually purchase a pair of these speakers?


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20274271
> 
> 
> A while back, I mentioned that I was picking up a few new pieces of gear to help give my rack a bit more audiophile cred, and to satisfy my OCD need for everything to match.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well two of those things have arrived.
> 
> 
> One of these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first, the Halide Design Bridge USB to SPDIF converter ($450), promises to reduce the jitter of PC/Mac based audio down to insignificant levels, which according to the Stereophile test bench, it does. However, if it makes an audible difference, it is so subtle as to be insignificant in my system. The crazy thing is, I'm going to keep it anyway. If only because it makes me feel better that system is free of those pesky jitter demons that tend to make us audiophile types uneasy. It's ridiculous rationale, I know, but who ever said this hobby was supposed to always make sense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The other piece, the PS Audio Power Plant P5, is a frivolously priced ($3000 MSRP) "power conditioner" that only lunatics could justify putting into there system, let alone using it to power a friggin' Denon AVR and a Mac Mini!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that the audiophile Gods are having a bit of fun with me on this one, because you know what? The damn voodoo in this thing actually works! At least based on today's mood and the current alignment of the stars it does.
> 
> 
> I've been using a Belkin PureAV power center while I waited for the P5 to arrive, and I have to say that I noticed a slight hashiness to the sound that I didn't remember being there before, and the sound overall was satisfactory, but not all that remarkable.
> 
> 
> With the PS Audio P5 in the mix, the sound is both smoother, yet more detailed. The sound is more open and also more expansive. I've always treasured the expansive sound that WB provides, but that quality had seemed to have faded away until this magic black box re-entered the picture. Now normally, I would chalk this up to be the result of a "new gear high", but I really didn't expect the P5 to do damn thing. I bought it mainly because it looks cool and I need something presentable to plug all of my gear into. More nonsensical justification for blowing $2.5K (street price) on a piece of gear, but hey, the bonus is that it actually kicked the sound quality up a notch. Go figure.
> 
> 
> When I owned the PS Audio Power Plant Premier aka PPP (the predecessor to the P5), and connected it to my previous Classe stack, the difference was more subtle. There was a bit better detail retrieval, a "blacker background" to steal a phrase, but not the opening-up of the sound stage. I had to check a couple of times that I didn't have the system in DPL2 surround when I first started listening tonight. I'm guessing the effect was less with the Class gear because the Classe already had good filtering in the power supply? Or maybe, the P5 is actually an improvement over the PPP? I dunno. I don't know that I would necessarily recommend spending $2.5K on this over a better front-end or speakers, but it is something that you should at least check out it you've got the scratch.
> 
> 
> Oh, I almost forgot, I also swapped my old Mac Mini for the current model, and damn the new one is sexy, with its solid aluminum housing (ala Ayre components) and black, glossy apple logo peering out the top. I was a bit worried though that it may have been responsible for the slightly edgy / hashy sound I mentioned earlier, because I put it into the system right after I got rid of the PPP.
> 
> 
> Pics to come, but I'm not completely done with my system remodel yet. Still waiting on a new Denon Blu-Ray player. Which BTW, I've decided to jump up a level from the BDP-2012 to the reference level BDP-4010, complete with the Denon Link jitter free interface. Begone jitter demons, begone!



Very cool, hifi. That P5 is quite the beast. I wonder if it will bully your one box receiver.







Lol. I'm kidding. But I sure did crack myself up.










What BD player are you using now? Have you considered the big uber Denon DVD-A1UDCI player? Talk about a reference piece built like a tank.


Looking forward to more impressions of the P5 after you get more hands on time with it. Btw, how about posting some action shots.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/20276841
> 
> 
> I really like the look and performance of the PS Audio products, *I just think that it's totally overkill for my system* but you have made me give it serious thought.



What? Blasphemy. There's no such thing, W23. In fact, to quote Col. John "Hannibal" Smith, "overkill is underrated."


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/20277830
> 
> 
> thanks, yeah I'm pretty much sold on the Power Plant 5, seems to be the best choice for complete AV system's. I'm going through a major system re-configuration and I want to switch this major component while I have the chance
> 
> 
> did you actually purchase a pair of these speakers?



Nope, no Vivid's in my home, but two of the local AVSers here in Seattle have the B1's, and they are the real deal. I've heard them in both of their two very different systems, and they sound fantastic. Really impressive detail, soundstaging, tone, texture, dynamics, you name it. And despite the use of all metal drivers, they don't sound cold, mechanical, clinical or any of those things that can be a trade off with this cone / dome material. Like any full range speaker, they do require care to place, which is a big reason for me in holding off. No speaker changes until I get a better room in a new home, or remodel my current room.


----------



## seanfarley2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Waboman* /forum/post/20277870
> 
> 
> What? Blasphemy. There's no such thing, W23. In fact, to quote Col. John "Hannibal" Smith, "overkill is underrated."



Lol...overkill....like putting $17000 speakers in my bedroom? I think most of what I've done has always been overkill to some extent. I've cooled it some from what I've done the past few years but I still go overboard. I'm looking for a means to an end but I don't think it will matter. For the record my bedroom speakers won't always be in there. I'm moving this summer and hopefully I'll be buying a house instead of renting. It doesn't happen this summer it is going to be a few years down the road till a house happens.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seanfarley2* /forum/post/20277930
> 
> 
> Lol...overkill....like putting $17000 speakers in my bedroom? I think most of what I've done has always been overkill to some extent. I've cooled it some from what I've done the past few years but I still go overboard. I'm looking for a means to an end but I don't think it will matter. For the record my bedroom speakers won't always be in there. I'm moving this summer and hopefully I'll be buying a house instead of renting. It doesn't happen this summer it is going to be a few years down the road till a house happens.



Lol. So this is where the big shooters hang out.







I have to hurry and type before hifi's security force throws me out. What's wrong with $17k speakers in your bedroom? It's where you spend most of your time, isn't it? Plus when you move into your new mansion, they will fit nicely in your dedicated HT room. I'll be looking for my invite, btw.


----------



## hifisponge

So what are these mysterious $17K bedroom speakers?


----------



## seanfarley2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20278194
> 
> 
> So what are these mysterious $17K bedroom speakers?



Check my thread


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seanfarley2* /forum/post/20278221
> 
> 
> Check my thread



Got link?










Edit: Nevermind. I found it.


I know you. I've seen those pics over on the dyn owners thread. Very nice. You made a big jump from what was in there before. Did you audition any other brands, or are you a dyn loyalist?


----------



## seanfarley2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20278262
> 
> 
> Got link?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Nevermind. I found it.
> 
> 
> I know you. I've seen those pics over on the dyn owners thread. Very nice. You made a big jump from what was in there before. Did you audition any other brands, or are you a dyn loyalist?



I've had Klipsch, Onkyo, Kef, Mirage, Polk, Pioneer, and Dynaudio. I've heard Martin Logans, NHT, B&W (all models), Paradigm (all models), Wilson, etc. A local dealer (there is really only 2 in central Iowa...located in Des Moines) just started carrying Magico. I'd like to give those a demo. Just a matter of finding the time since I work 6 days a week.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seanfarley2* /forum/post/20278334
> 
> 
> I've had Klipsch, Onkyo, Kef, Mirage, Polk, Pioneer, and Dynaudio. I've heard Martin Logans, NHT, B&W (all models), Paradigm (all models), Wilson, etc. A local dealer (there is really only 2 in central Iowa...located in Des Moines) just started carrying Magico. I'd like to give those a demo. Just a matter of finding the time since *I work 6 days a week*.



No wonder you have to lie down in bed to listen.










Check out the Vivid Audio B1 speakers if you can find them. Best speakers I've heard in a loooooong time.


----------



## seanfarley2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20278382
> 
> 
> No wonder you have to lie down in bed to listen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check out the Vivid Audio B1 speakers if you can find them. Best speakers I've heard in a loooooong time.



They aren't to be found here I imagine. Probably might be able to hear them in Chicago. I'm due for a visit there.


----------



## tigerstripe

Nice HT setup Tim, thanks for sharing. I have been reading your posts for a while but haven't finished them yet, I must say your efforts and contributions to this forum are beyond compare.


May I know what center speaker and surround speakers did you use when you owned the Dynaudio C1's? I am in desperate need of your opinions since audition of center and surround speakers are impossible in my region. Thanks.


----------



## ddgtr

Congrats on the new toys Tim, they look sexy, especially the PS Audio!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tigerstripe* /forum/post/20281277
> 
> 
> Nice HT setup Tim, thanks for sharing. I have been reading your posts for a while but haven't finished them yet, I must say your efforts and contributions to this forum are beyond compare.
> 
> 
> May I know what center speaker and surround speakers did you use when you owned the Dynaudio C1's? I am in desperate need of your opinions since audition of center and surround speakers are impossible in my region. Thanks.



Tiger -


Thanks for the kind words. When I owned the C1's, I was auditioning several different speakers, and to minimize my losses, I was sticking to just stereo. So I had not yet purchased a center or surrounds to match the C1's. Had I decided to keep the C1's, I was planning to buy the matching Confidence center and to use the Contour on-walls for surrounds. I think if you need a smaller center, the SCX is a good choice. It uses the same tweeter as the C1, and the Contour and Confidence lines use very similar mid/bass drivers. Same cone material, same basket, same magnetics and same voice coil. It is just the specific values of these elements that are tweeked / refined for the confidence.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20282695
> 
> 
> Congrats on the new toys Tim, they look sexy, especially the PS Audio!



Thanks GTR -


I've also be diligently working on cleaning up the back of the rack, which is coming along nicely. Had to scour the internet for cables of just the right length, like 19" firewire cables to replace the 40" cables that came with the hard drives that feed my Mac. A more difficult task than it may seem. Also bought some cable management covers and clips.


----------



## tigerstripe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20285138
> 
> 
> Tiger -
> 
> 
> Thanks for the kind words. When I owned the C1's, I was auditioning several different speakers, and to minimize my losses, I was sticking to just stereo. So I had not yet purchased a center or surrounds to match the C1's. Had I decided to keep the C1's, I was planning to buy the matching Confidence center and to use the Contour on-walls for surrounds. I think if you need a smaller center, the SCX is a good choice. It uses the same tweeter as the C1, and the Contour and Confidence lines use very similar mid/bass drivers. Same cone material, same basket, same magnetics and same voice coil. It is just the specific values of these elements that are tweeked / refined for the confidence.



Thanks for your help Tim. Since no audition here on the Contour SCX is possible here, your advice is very useful to me. I will get the SCX as per your recommendation, and will probably get the Contour SR's as the surround.


One year ago I was a complete hifi newbie. Then I came across your thread, paying home visits to a few local audiophiles, requesting speaker auditions from different dealers ... Monitor Audio, B&W, Acoustic Energy, ProAc, DefTech, Triangle, Polk Audio, Tannoy, PSB, Focus Audio, Mordaunt-Short, Quad, Spendor, KEF, Sonus Faber, Dynaudio ... after auditions of 30+ speakers, the final candidates under consideration were MA PL200 and GS60, Sonus Faber Cremona M, Acoustic Energy AE1 MkIII SE, PSB Synchrony One and Dynaudio Confidence C1 speakers.


And I eventually ended up with the C1's that I think I'll enjoy in music and home theater for many years to come. Your posts did help me a lot in the decision process thank you.


I also came across another speakers called the Atohm GT1's which I bought for my master bedroom without a second thought. They are french speakers and the sound is fast, musical, transparent, dynamic, textured, detailed and smooth. Their build quality is average and the soundstage is not as dimensional as the MA GS's or Dynaudio C1's, also requiring tricky positioning, but for me they are the best sounding speakers apart from the C1's as they are the ONLY speakers that made me tear up when I demoed Itzhak Perlman's Schindler's List at the dealer...


Since you find the neutral sounding C1's "not great, not horrible", I guess you will fall in love with Atohm speakers too. You may want to try GT2 floorstanders instead of GT1's if you can find a pair near your location, as the GT2 give you deeper controlled bass. They will probably have no resell value, but I highly recommend you to give them a try when you come across them


----------



## hifisponge

Tiger -


I'm glad that my thread made the right impression on you, which is to get out there and listen. I'm impressed with the lengths you've gone to, to audition a wide assortment of speakers. I haven't heard the MA PL200's. What did you think of them? Were you able to compare them to the PL300? I'm also interested in hearing your take on the Mordaunt Short and Focus Audio speakers. Those two have intrigued me for years, but I've not had the chance to hear them.


I was reading the response from Mick at Dynaudio in the Dyn Owner's thread about the center channel size, and at least in length, the SCX is the same size as the Confidence center, so I don't know if you get what you want out of that choice. Just something to consider.


Thanks for the recommendation on the Atohm speakers. Hopefully I'll get the opportunity to hear them some day. Considering that out opinions of speakers seem to generally line-up, it seems that they would have a good chance of appealing to me.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20277893
> 
> 
> local AVSers here in Seattle



speaking of Seattle, I was up in your region recently (see images), cold and rainy, but beautiful and fresh...........



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20277893
> 
> 
> No speaker changes until I get a better room in a new home, or remodel my current room



yeah, I'm hoping (after I win the Lotto) to get into [any] house, to get new speaker/system set-up


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/20299848
> 
> 
> speaking of Seattle, I was up in your region recently (see images), cold and rainy, but beautiful and fresh...........
> 
> 
> yeah, I'm hoping (after I win the Lotto) to get into [any] house, to get new speaker/system set-up



WCD -


Glad you were able to make it out to our beautiful (but wet) city, though I'm disappointed that you didn't drop me a line while you were here so we could meet. You could have also seen the room where speakers speakers go to die first hand.


----------



## WestCoastD

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
I'm disappointed that you didn't drop me a line while you were here so we could meet. You could have also seen the room where speakers speakers go to die first hand
yes, I should have dropped you a line, could have worked-out. Would like to have witnessed the famous speaker test center in-person







No actually I would really like to do sample listening to other systems to see how things differ.


----------



## tigerstripe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20289213
> 
> 
> Tiger -
> 
> 
> I'm glad that my thread made the right impression on you, which is to get out there and listen. I'm impressed with the lengths you've gone to, to audition a wide assortment of speakers. I haven't heard the MA PL200's. What did you think of them? Were you able to compare them to the PL300? I'm also interested in hearing your take on the Mordaunt Short and Focus Audio speakers. Those two have intrigued me for years, but I've not had the chance to hear them.
> 
> 
> I was reading the response from Mick at Dynaudio in the Dyn Owner's thread about the center channel size, and at least in length, the SCX is the same size as the Confidence center, so I don't know if you get what you want out of that choice. Just something to consider.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the recommendation on the Atohm speakers. Hopefully I'll get the opportunity to hear them some day. Considering that out opinions of speakers seem to generally line-up, it seems that they would have a good chance of appealing to me.



Hello Tim,


This is my 1st high end HT and both my wife and I have rather sensitive ears, although it was time consuming, our quest to look for the best possible sound within our budget range was full of fun.


Unfortunately I didn't have a chance to listen to the PL300s to form an opinion. Have compared the GS20's with the GS60's side by side, and I found the GS20's in general sounded brighter and more forward than the GS60's, while the latter still sounded quite bright in occasions.


I and my wife auditioned the Mordaunt Short Performance quite a while back and I forgot the amplifiers the dealers used (at that time those amplifier names were quite new to us), while we auditioned Focus Audio recently and thoughtfully. We auditioned the PL200's about 6 months ago and we can still recall a lot on their performance. Before I share my audition experience, let me give you some background on our preference and taste so that you can judge if you can take reference from our opinions.


Soon after our speaker audition journey started, we concluded that we only liked neutral sounding speakers. We like to hear voice and instruments as close to the original as possible - that is, we want the speakers reproducing exactly the same sound we hear in reality. When looking for a TV for our HT, we found that we preferred Plasma TVs over LCD TVs, for the same reason. LCD TVs look sharp, colorful and beautiful to most people, but in reality we don't find apples in such vivid red and people don't have outline. We want things being right and correct. I do not know how the voice of a singer sounds like in front of me if I haven't met that singer before, but some singer voices just sounded inhuman via some systems. And I certainly know how a violin and a piano sound, that's why soundtracks and instrumental CDs constitute 70% of our test CDs. For example, the harsh and bright sounding GS20's when playing Kenny G and Secret Garden put us off, and we know we will never think the unnatural, laid back and lack of detail nature of most B&W speakers good sounding (except the diamond series). And we only tested the speakers with normal CDs - those remastered CDs usually sound artificial and awful in most neutral speakers.


----------



## tigerstripe

We only auditioned the PL200's because the dealer thought the PL300's would be "overkill" for our room. This MA dealer is an AV consultant company and the shop owner had installed 2 pairs of PL300 speakers recently for home theaters of 2 local movie stars and both were similar to the size of a basketball court. I also emailed Mr Alex Brady (marketing director of MA UK) and he replied me in great details suggesting something similar. He suggested the GS60's or PL200's would be more suitable for my room size.


To me the PL200's were dynamic, fast, very transparent, highly detailed. They also had airy treble, with tight and controlled bass (although the bass was not the deepest compared with some rivals). Compared to the GS60's, the PL200's were more transparent, and the soundstage seemed wider and deeper, while not as bright as the GS60s (but I am not 100% sure since I auditioned the GS60's from another dealer and differences in room acoustics certainly played a role. In my region, MA is unpopular and there are only 3 authorized dealers of the Platinum and the GS series, and they only carried 1-2 pairs of the unpopular MA speakers in their showrooms). Compared with the Dynaudio C1s (which we auditioned 4 months after the audition of PL200s), the PL200 treble were cleaner, more open, more refined and crisper. The C1 treble was more neutral and delicate though. Apart from the treble, transparency and details, we concluded the PL200s couldn't beat the C1s in other aspects. Of the 10+ CDs we brought for the audition, only Eagles Hotel California (live acoustic version) sounded significantly better than the C1. We still liked the PL200's a lot, but at the end we dismissed the option because the sound still leans toward the "bright" side, which we found a bit fatigue after long listening.


The listening environment for the PL200's was above average acoustically treated. The dealer either used the Accustic Arts or Luxman amp to drive the PL200's (I forget now), and I am not sure the brightness were coming from the amplifier or the speakers themselves. But given the harsh and forward sounding of the GS20's, and the rather bright GS60's, it is logical to associate the brightness to the PL200's. From our audition journey, we conclude that packing metallic drivers, woofers and a ribbon tweeter into a cabinet of whatever materials will hardly sound neutral or warm.


----------



## tigerstripe

We auditioned the Mordaunt-Short speakers a while back, and we were still hifi newbies by the time being.


My wife also read some of your posts and she said "spongebob enlightened us a lot, and it's time for us to return him some favors" (she liked to call you spongebob ). That's why yesterday afternoon I and my wife spent more than 3 hours to thoughtfully audition the Mordaunt Short Performance 6 speakers again in the best showroom suggested by the distributor. No we were not wasting seller's time, we still haven't decided on the two stereo amps for the C1s and the GT1s, and it was a good chance to audition the more expensive amps at the dealer.


We auditioned exclusively the Performance 6 speakers this time, while last time we auditioned both Performance 2 and 6 speakers. Acoustically the showroom was quite good, with the ceiling, front wall and left side wall acoustically dead. Open CD and product cabinets were against the right side wall and the rear wall. Some base traps were present at some corners.


The Performance 6s were driven by the Luxman L-509u int amp, which according to the dealer is very neutral sounding. The dealer also had the Gryphon Diablo, but we auditioned this int amp a few times with the Dynaudio C1 and Gryphon Mojo speakers, and we found it a bit warm and thick for our taste. The dealer also recommended partnering the Performance 6's with the more neutral sounding Luxman amp which had been warmed up for over an hour before we came.


Tonally the Performance 6s were similar to the MA, Canton, and Elac, and remotely similar to the Acoustic Energy speakers. They were much warmer than the GS60's, a bit warmer than the Elac FS 247s, but I would still classify the Performance 6s bright speakers, as they were not as neutral as the Acoustic Energy AE1 MkIII SE ones. The brightness was very subtle and didn't bother us during the audition, and I think you can get rid most of the brightness if you play around with the source.


Overall the speakers were well balanced, and I will recommend them to those who listen to all sorts of music and spend a good deal of time on movie and gaming. They passed all my CD tests, most tracks were good, some were great. The dealer also demoed his collection of CDs, all were good to great. However, there was no single moment that the speaker blew me away, while the GS60s, PL200s, PSB Synchrony One's, Dynaudio Confidence C1s, Atohm GT1 and GT2 speakers did give me such a feeling, particularly the C1s and the GTs. There was just no "wow" factor in them. They are fast, transparent and detailed, but the GS60s were much more transparent and detailed. Soundstage was open and wide, imaging quite precise, but the scale was much smaller than the C1s and AE1 MkIII SEs, and a bit smaller than the GS60s. They were dynamic, much more than the Sonus Faber Cremona Ms, but the PL200s, C1s and GTs were even more so. Musically, they were smoother and more refined compared to the Proac Response D series which sounded a bit coarse and rough, but they were less musical than the Proac speakers and rougher and coarser than the C1's, AE1 MkIII SEs and GT's. The bass was tight, warm and controlled, but not as well controlled as the PSB Synchrony One's. Also many other rival floorstanders and bookshelf speakers like the C1s and GTs could dig much deeper, but the bass was comparable to the AE1 MkIII SEs. The low treble and high midrange sounded a bit thin like the PSB Synchrony One's did (but perhaps the thin sound came from the NAD int amp instead of the PSB) and occasionally got our attention, but it didn't bother us as a whole.


The bottom line is, if I were to stay listening to Performance 6s for the whole day with all sort of music, or I were watching movies and playing video games with the Performance 6 5.1 AV system, I would like to. Listening to the GS60s for the whole day? No thanks. The Performance 6s are very well balanced and good in all aspects with almost no weakness, but nothing really stand out from the best rivals. However if I was to choose between the Sonus Faber Cremona Ms and the Performance 6s, this is a no brainer - the latter would definitely be the choice. They lack a wow factor, but overall they are better than the Cremona Ms which are also quite balanced in all aspects but lack the authority of the Performance 6s. I would say the Performance 6s are like a lion - among the big cats, a lion is fast but isn't the fastest (leopards and cheetahs are faster), it's strong yet isn't the strongest (jaguars and tigers are stronger. No internet vs debate needed, everyone please refer to the paper published in Nature - pound for pound a Bengal tiger is 30% stronger than an African lion, that's why nearly all staged fights used smaller tigresses against bigger male lions. And pound for pound jaguars are even stronger than tigers), it isn't the most agile (leopards and tigers are more agile), it isn't the smartest (tigers have bigger and more developed brains) and it isn't the largest either (Siberian and Northern Bengal tigers are larger). But, a lion certainly deserves all the praises as a well balanced and efficient fighter and killer.


I would like to point out that Mordaunt-Short Performance and the Dynaudio Confidence speakers do have one thing in common - partner them with better equipment will proportionally give you better sound. To illustrate this statement, at the end of the audition the dealer swapped the Luxman L-509u with Luxman L-507u (which had been warmed up for 25 minutes) - I would say the speakers suffered from about 40% of performance drop!


One important note you must know - I didn't consider Mordaunt-Short Performance speakers because months ago the MS Performance 5.1 AV package (2 floorstanders, 2 standmounts, 1 center and 1 sub) cost me about USD18,000 and we had better options at this price range. However, perhaps because the way I approached the distributor and the dealer yesterday (they probably thought we were some famed audiophiles), they gave me a special discount - they asked for USD8,000, some 80% discount, for the whole 5.1 Performance package (latest limited midnight black edition, 100% brand new and sealed, A-stock). This authorized dealer is listed on the Mordaunt-Short website and is very reputable locally. If you are really interested in this package, perhaps visiting Hong Kong will be your Easter holiday activity as you can save USD10,000 (in the US I think the package also retails for USD18,000). The air tickets, hotel expense and freight cost etc shouldn't cost you anything near USD10,000. It's a real bargain. They gave us 2 weeks to consider this special offer. Tempted?


----------



## tigerstripe

We auditioned FA Prestige speakers 2 months ago. The series was very new and only 3 models, the FP50SE, FP60SE and FPCSE speakers began in production and only the FP50SE bookshelf speakers were available for audition at that time.


The dealer is also the distributor of FA, and owns the biggest and most sophisticated AV showrooms in Hong Kong, at prestige locations. There are showrooms of multiple sizes, all are in perfect acoustic conditions. The sales representative could only arrange the demo on the FP50SE speakers, partnered with the 80W Naim Supernait. The showroom was medium sized and the salesperson did an A/B demo between the FA and Proac Response speakers. All the speakers and equipment had been warmed up for 2 hours prior to our audition.


First impression - the sound was very detailed and neutral. Testing them with more CDs, apart from the details, nothing stood out from the rivals. Another Mordaunt-Short Performance? Sorry, not in the same league.


Comparable to the Sonus Faber Cremona Ms? No the FA speakers are totally off balanced. They lacked authority, the bass was weak and deeper bass was non-existent - nearly all bookshelf speakers we have auditioned at this price range can dig much deeper and have better control of the bass. The weak bass had little to do with the room acoustic since the Proac response D2 bookshelf speakers dug far much more deeper and were far more punchy. The soundstage was small, absent in most tracks, and the imaging was weird and artificial. Timing was strange too.


End of the story? Not quite yet. When I listened to Itzhak Perlman's Schindler's List - what the fxxk? The speakers totally fxxked up! I had never heard such a terrible presentation of the track - the violin seemed synthetic, clinical, mechanical, twisted and distorted. The track irritated us greatly, and it was a total disaster. We almost wanted to call it quit. They fxxked up Secret Garden and Kenny G as well. Vocals were acceptable, rich and detailed sometimes, but with noticeable weird problems that I don't know how to phrase out properly in English. Please note that the Proac speakers had no trace of these problems at all, when demoed side by side. The Proac speakers were very musically, quite punchy and warm, but they were not slow, lack of details and laid back like most B&W speakers are. The FA FP50SEs did offer more details and transparency than the Proac speakers and not as coarse and warm, quite neutral as well, but all the other weird problems plagued them as hi end speakers with acceptable sound quality.


We suspected the speakers had insufficient break-in period and spent a long time talking with the dealer. The dealer said the speakers actually sounded ok as it was the way they sounded. They had been demoed for 3 weeks and he said they would probably sound a bit more relax and the soundstage would open up a bit after a longer break-in period, but would not be a night a day difference. I also think so, as I auditioned a pair of brand new Mythos STS right out of the box, and the C1s we auditioned were just 2 weeks old. We could hear they did not sound at their prime, but nothing terrible and no disaster happened. After months of break-in, I doubt the FA will sound "normal" at all by our standard.


For your information, actually we have never made an appointment to audition the Focus Audio speakers. We only made appointments to audition the Proac speakers but we were heavily pitched the Focus Audio ones. So we agreed to listen to the FA in the second audition session.


I can understand why they promoted Proac which appeared to be well balanced all round speakers, but I was not sure about Focus Audio which is neither a famous brand locally nor designed by some famous designers. I know no speaker is perfect but at this price range I rarely came across speakers that were so imbalanced being heavily promoted. So I proceeded to do some research and I have the following findings via a few sources (including several local audiophiles and a former procurement manager of current FA distributor) and although it is hard to verify the accuracy of the following information, it is still very interesting:


Here is the story, please see if you believe it or not: the founder of Focus Audio Mr Leung is a Chinese running a small factory in China that have been producing budget speakers for the South East Asian developing countries, and he is a close friend of the owner (Mr Wong) of the distributor that distributes Proac and other foreign brands in Hong Kong. This distributor is one of the largest distributor of high end A/V products in Hong Kong, as they are one of the earliest importers of high end foreign A/V products and are now well established its status as the leading high end AV product distributor. As you know, local Hong Kong or China speakers, no matter how good they are, can hardly establish any user base even locally in Hong Kong or China, not to mention in oversea developed countries. To introduce their speakers to the international market, Mr Leung migrated to Canada via investment migration and registered his speakers as a Canadian brand, to be distributed by Mr Wong in Hong Kong and China. So the speakers are designed and developed by a Chinese man, and are made in China. If the above story is correct, we can regard Focus Audio is a brand indirectly owned by Mr Wong, and this explains why Focus Audio products are also heavily pitched to potential customers while there are better products from more famous brands for them to promote.


Being a Hong Kong Chinese, born in Hong Kong China, growing up in Hong Kong China, studying and working in Hong Kong China doesn't mean that I would be biased towards every Chinese product. Among audiophiles in Hong Kong and China, Chinese speakers are all regarded trash and garbage. If the above story is true, I certainly wouldn't recommend any FA speaker to you. Even if the above story is false, I still trust my ears and FA speakers are certainly not for you.


You may wonder your PS3 and iPhone are made in China and why they are great. First, they are designed and developed in Japan and the US, and the key components are produced in Japan and Taiwan. The finished components are then assembled in China. And the factory is Foxconn, which is a Taiwanese company with the management team consisting of mostly Taiwanese, assuming the Taiwanese code of conduct and standards in the manufacturing process. How about Chinese speaker factories? They are small and substandard. According to my sources, Proac speakers are probably made in a tiny Chinese factory with only 3 workers and the factory is also owned by the distributor Mr Wong. Certainly I cannot verify the accuracy of this information, but I have one clue - although Proac speakers are unpopular in Hong Kong, I found that the very few discussions in the local Hong Kong forums on these speakers do involve concerns on the quality issues...


As I have auditioned several other expensive Chinese speakers, I can conclude there are some things in common for most Chinese speakers:

1) the use of exotic drivers, tweeters and other components that appear in speakers several times more expensive

2) usually with multiple layers of piano lacquer finish

3) they do have sonic characteristics of some famous speakers, but they are also plagued by problems found ONLY in speakers costing a few dozen pennies

4) grammatical mistakes in their brochures, websites etc (the Canadian Focus Audio Prestige brochure I received has lots of grammatical errors). I can hardly tell my friends they are world class premium speakers ...


Perhaps some people are fascinated by point 1, but I didn't. If you are given a bunch of high end and expensive CPUs, GPUs, and various high end components, can you single handily build a machine greater than a PS3 or Xbox 360? Dynaudio C1s use a fabric tweeter and a polymer driver - all are cheap materials, yet they are one of the greatest sounding speakers out there. It is the sound that matters, not the exotic materials used. Chinese speakers use this exotic components hoping to put them in the same league of the more expensive famous speakers. This tactic does work for newbies, but certainly most audiophiles will not fall for this trick.


If you are really into Chinese speakers, some local audiophiles suggest Volent speakers which have fewer problems. I haven't auditioned them and so I can't give you any comment, but please be careful when dealing with these Chinese speakers - testing them with more tracks and CDs will reveal their weaknesses and problems.


----------



## hifisponge

Tiger -


Wow! Thanks so much for taking the time to provide such detail on your listening experiences. The Mordaunt Short speakers do sound tempting, as does a vacation to Honk Kong to pick them up.










Interesting story about Focus Audio's true identity. I could very well see that sort of business trickery taking place in this industry.


Isn't it a shame how many speakers out there, especially many of the more expensive ones, sound so far from good? It was surprising to me as I went up the food chain only to find that many of the speakers sounded worse than the less expensive speakers that came before them.


Just keep in mind that the Dyn C1s have a 300 hour break-in period. During which you may wonder if you made the wrong choice. They sound sharp, nasal and shouty. But hang in there. All of those things go away and the end result is a very balanced, neutral sound.


Tell your wife that Mr. Spongebob say hi.


----------



## rydenfan

Hey Tim, the system looks great! So glad to see you are pleased with it.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rydenfan* /forum/post/20318657
> 
> 
> Hey Tim, the system looks great! So glad to see you are pleased with it.



Hey David -


Always good to hear from you. Did you finally settle on a set of speakers? Last we talked you were trying out some Raidho's.


----------



## WestCoastD

Quote:

Originally Posted by *tigerstripe* 
We only auditioned the PL200's because the dealer thought the PL300's would be "overkill" for our room. This MA dealer is an AV consultant company and the shop owner had installed 2 pairs of PL300 speakers recently for home theaters of 2 local movie stars and both were similar to the size of a basketball court. I also emailed Mr Alex Brady (marketing director of MA UK) and he replied me in great details suggesting something similar. He suggested the GS60's or PL200's would be more suitable for my room size.


To me the PL200's were dynamic, fast, very transparent, highly detailed. They also had airy treble, with tight and controlled bass (although the bass was not the deepest compared with some rivals). Compared to the GS60's, the PL200's were more transparent, and the soundstage seemed wider and deeper, while not as bright as the GS60s (but I am not 100% sure since I auditioned the GS60's from another dealer and differences in room acoustics certainly played a role. In my region, MA is unpopular and there are only 3 authorized dealers of the Platinum and the GS series, and they only carried 1-2 pairs of the unpopular MA speakers in their showrooms). Compared with the Dynaudio C1s (which we auditioned 4 months after the audition of PL200s), the PL200 treble were cleaner, more open, more refined and crisper. The C1 treble was more neutral and delicate though. Apart from the treble, transparency and details, we concluded the PL200s couldn't beat the C1s in other aspects. Of the 10+ CDs we brought for the audition, only Eagles Hotel California (live acoustic version) sounded significantly better than the C1. We still liked the PL200's a lot, but at the end we dismissed the option because the sound still leans toward the "bright" side, which we found a bit fatigue after long listening.


The listening environment for the PL200's was above average acoustically treated. The dealer either used the Accustic Arts or Luxman amp to drive the PL200's (I forget now), and I am not sure the brightness were coming from the amplifier or the speakers themselves. But given the harsh and forward sounding of the GS20's, and the rather bright GS60's, it is logical to associate the brightness to the PL200's. From our audition journey, we conclude that packing metallic drivers, woofers and a ribbon tweeter into a cabinet of whatever materials will hardly sound neutral or warm.
very interesting, thanks for your detailed explanations here, a great help.


----------



## rydenfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20319379
> 
> 
> Hey David -
> 
> 
> Always good to hear from you. Did you finally settle on a set of speakers? Last we talked you were trying out some Raidho's.



Hey Tim. I still have the Raidho's and have been loving them. After the last time we spoke I sold my Pass XA30.5 and picked up an Aesthetix Atlas. It made a WORLD of difference to get that power behind these speakers. I have really, really, enjoyed the combination.

I am now about to start doing some work on a dedicated room, somewhere roughly around 15' by 20', and thinking I will likely need a larger speaker than a monitor to fill the room. However I may try adding an REL sub first and see how that sounds as I really enjoy the Raidho's. I will keep you posted...


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rydenfan* /forum/post/20329046
> 
> 
> Hey Tim. I still have the Raidho's and have been loving them. After the last time we spoke I sold my Pass XA30.5 and picked up an Aesthetix Atlas. It made a WORLD of difference to get that power behind these speakers. I have really, really, enjoyed the combination.
> 
> I am now about to start doing some work on a dedicated room, somewhere roughly around 15' by 20', and thinking I will likely need a larger speaker than a monitor to fill the room. However I may try adding an REL sub first and see how that sounds as I really enjoy the Raidho's. I will keep you posted...



Very cool. The Raidho's sure are gorgeous, and if I were you, I would certainly try to make them work. If you need a fast sub, they say the one to beat, is none other than the WB Torus. Lots of Magico monitor guys out there supposedly mating the Torus with the Mini's.


I'm surprised that the Pass amp didn't give you what you were after. All the amp guys I know speak only the highest praise for them. I was only recently introduced to the Aesthetix products through a friend, though I have not actually heard them.


Anyway, good luck on the new room. It can only get better.


----------



## tigerstripe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20318427
> 
> 
> Tiger -
> 
> 
> Wow! Thanks so much for taking the time to provide such detail on your listening experiences. The Mordaunt Short speakers do sound tempting, as does a vacation to Honk Kong to pick them up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting story about Focus Audio's true identity. I could very well see that sort of business trickery taking place in this industry.
> 
> 
> Isn't it a shame how many speakers out there, especially many of the more expensive ones, sound so far from good? It was surprising to me as I went up the food chain only to find that many of the speakers sounded worse than the less expensive speakers that came before them.
> 
> 
> Just keep in mind that the Dyn C1s have a 300 hour break-in period. During which you may wonder if you made the wrong choice. They sound sharp, nasal and shouty. But hang in there. All of those things go away and the end result is a very balanced, neutral sound.
> 
> 
> Tell your wife that Mr. Spongebob say hi.



Hello Tim, compared to the inspiration and information I got from your thread, my posts are nothing in comparison.


Thanks for your reminder on the break-in period. Actually in the local Chinese forum, C1 owners actually recommend a break-in period of 1 year (2 hours per day) ... I am not sure if it is necessary, I will experiment it.


There is a distributor of Atohm speakers in the US:
http://www.vmax-services.com/brand.php?id=11 


You went up the food chain to find speakers not to your liking, perhaps you just went up the wrong food chain







As a tiger you found the gaur not delicious, as an orca you found the mako sharks not that tasteful, but as Tyrannosaurus rex you would find Triceratops horridus appetizing!


So after you devour the WB, perhaps Atohm speakers will be your next dinner







My dealer used the YBA and Atoll amp to drive them, both sounded awesome, with the more expensive YBA in particular.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tigerstripe* /forum/post/20334746
> 
> 
> Hello Tim, compared to the inspiration and information I got from your thread, my posts are nothing in comparison.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your reminder on the break-in period. Actually in the local Chinese forum, C1 owners actually recommend a break-in period of 1 year (2 hours per day) ... I am not sure if it is necessary, I will experiment it.
> 
> 
> There is a distributor of Atohm speakers in the US:
> http://www.vmax-services.com/brand.php?id=11
> 
> 
> You went up the food chain to find speakers not to your liking, perhaps you just went up the wrong food chain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a tiger you found the gaur not delicious, as an orca you found the mako sharks not that tasteful, but as Tyrannosaurus rex you would find Triceratops horridus appetizing!
> 
> 
> So after you devour the WB, perhaps Atohm speakers will be your next dinner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My dealer used the YBA and Atoll amp to drive them, both sounded awesome, with the more expensive YBA in particular.



Trust me, you are not going to want to waste time to get the C1's through the first 300 hours. They are not real pleasant to listen to during that time.


As for me, I'm done for a while. Besides, I'm going to be moving into an apartment soon (due to a pending separation between my wife and I), so my need for a kick-ass sound system is going to diminish considerably.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20334807
> 
> 
> I'm going to be moving into an apartment soon (due to a pending separation between my wife and I), so my need for a kick-ass sound system is going to diminish considerably



no fun, hope ya'll can get things back together


----------



## drewTT

Good work. I especially love the Wilson Benesch Discovery speakers.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/20342473
> 
> 
> no fun, hope ya'll can get things back together



Realistically, neither of us expect that to happen, but never say never.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *drewTT* /forum/post/20342544
> 
> 
> Good work. I especially love the Wilson Benesch Discovery speakers.



Thanks Drew! Good job yourself. I've always like the HK AVRs, and I see that you have one of the newer ones too. Great sound and great industrial design.


----------



## weird 23

That's too bad about you and your wife, I hope your new situation works out for you. Good luck Tim.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20334807
> 
> 
> As for me, I'm done for a while. Besides, I'm going to be moving into an apartment soon (due to a pending separation between my wife and I), so my need for a kick-ass sound system is going to diminish considerably.



That sucks, Tim. I'm sorry to hear about it. We'll keep the HT fires burning for you. Good luck, my friend.


----------



## Franin

Sorry to hear what happened hifisponge but I still wish you a happy easter.


----------



## ddgtr

Same here Tim, sorry to hear that...


I hope you have a Happy Easter!!


----------



## hifisponge

Thanks for the kind words guys.


Happy Easter.


----------



## hikarate

I'm hoping you have a Happy Easter as well Tim. Best of luck to you.


----------



## tigerstripe

It's sad to hear about the separation, but I believe there is always a story behind it. We fully support you, Tim.


I sincerely send my best wishes to you and your ex, and I hope both of you have a better living afterwards. Besides, the future is full of possibilities and perhaps the relationship between you two will become better than now.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20347855
> 
> 
> Thanks for the kind words guys.
> 
> 
> Happy Easter.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hikarate* /forum/post/20348297
> 
> 
> I'm hoping you have a Happy Easter as well Tim. Best of luck to you.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tigerstripe* /forum/post/20362326
> 
> 
> It's sad to hear about the separation, but I believe there is always a story behind it. We fully support you, Tim.
> 
> 
> I sincerely send my best wishes to you and your ex, and I hope both of you have a better living afterwards. Besides, the future is full of possibilities and perhaps the relationship between you two will become better than now.



Thanks again for the support guys. And yes Tigerstripe, we believe that this is the best for the both of us and we plan to remain close friends, so it is not all that bad.


----------



## DrkWhtGuy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As for me, I'm done for a while. Besides, I'm going to be moving into an apartment soon (due to a pending separation between my wife and I), so my need for a kick-ass sound system is going to diminish considerably.



I used to get upset for people upon hearing that news but find that sometimes it is for the best. My best to ya.


Eddie


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DrkWhtGuy* /forum/post/20367249
> 
> 
> I used to get upset for people upon hearing that news but find that sometimes it is for the best. My best to ya.
> 
> 
> Eddie



That reaction is understandable. It certainly isn't easy or enjoyable, but in the end it probably is for the best. Sometimes all we need is a fresh start.


----------



## hifisponge

On a happier note, after many weeks of planning and buying all just the right cables and components, I finally got my rack back into something more credible.










Sorry for the piss-poor photography, but it is really hard to capture all black components as they look in natural light with my point and shoot Canon. With the flash, everything looks like it was lit by blast furnace, and without, I lose detail and focus.









*Before*









*After*









*Before*









*After*


----------



## DrkWhtGuy

Wow. What a difference. Where did you pick up those white thingies at? I could definitely use some organization behind my rack.


----------



## hifisponge

You can get the cable looms on amazon for about $10.

http://www.amazon.com/Monster-CIT-MW.../dp/B000WNG0MW 


And the little cable clips are here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000AQOHM


----------



## CorboDuze

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
As for me, I'm done for a while. Besides, I'm going to be moving into an apartment soon (due to a pending separation between my wife and I), so my need for a kick-ass sound system is going to diminish considerably.
Why is your wife unhappy with you?


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* 
Why is your wife unhappy with you?
Hey CD -


I'd prefer not to get into the details of my personal life on a public forum, as I'm sure you understand.


----------



## WestCoastD

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
I finally got my rack back into something more credible
hey, that looks very cool- the new matching Denon BD player that is............


have you, just for experimentation, played any CD's in this unit yet? If so how does it sound?


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* 
hey, that looks very cool- the new matching Denon BD player that is............


have you, just for experimentation, played any CD's in this unit yet? If so how does it sound?
Nope, and I probably never will. Sorry, but I've pretty much run the course with trying out different players and whatnot. I just don't find the differences all that meaningful, and I'm quite happy with the sound quality and convenience of running all of my music off of Mac Mini. No more single disc listening sessions for me.


----------



## CorboDuze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20385192
> 
> 
> Hey CD -
> 
> 
> I'd prefer not to get into the details of my personal life on a public forum, as I'm sure you understand.



I understand. Doing so could actually hurt you in any future or current legal proceedings.


The question is there for you to answer on your own, with the help of your counselor.


Personally I have heard women leave because:


a) Prince Charming has materialized

b) husband does not make enough money

c) husband spends too much money

d) husband does not behave nicely

e) husband has done something very wrong

f) husband and wife are not able to communicate effectively, agree with each other, and enjoy each other


In cases a) and b), the separation is actually an opportunity to upgrade.


Cases c), d) and e): serious self improvement work needed on the man's side


Case f) is the most difficult: no one is right, no one is wrong. Misunderstandings and missed expectations build up frustrations. Sometimes people manage to repair the situation, with the help of counselor.


----------



## ldgibson76




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20385277
> 
> 
> Nope, and I probably never will. Sorry, but I've pretty much run the course with trying out different players and whatnot. I just don't find the differences all that meaningful, and I'm quite happy with the sound quality and convenience of running all of my music off of Mac Mini. No more single disc listening sessions for me.













Tim! Have we here at the WYSC Thread just become witnesses to the end of an era!?! No more device testing? Does that include speakers?!


I'm looking at your recent configuration,..... You have surely made a transition and it seems like it's at a fundamental level! But let's not kid ourselves,.... Tim, you still managed to own the mother of all AVR's, the Denon AVR-5308CI!







Mac Mini with Lossless Audio. A Denon bluray player, is it the 2010 or the 2012? Regardless, you still have one of the most formidable systems on the threads! You're still my hero!










By the way, in all seriousness, I'm really sorry to hear about your separation. That is never an easy process. I hope it all works out for the best, be it you two work it all out or you separate.


----------



## hifisponge

I'm afraid so LDG. I've got all that I need and I've tried all that I care to. Maybe in a few years I might consider different speakers, but it depends on a lot of things. Most of all, I fear that living in an apartment is going to kill the need for anything better.


----------



## weird 23

You may not be in apartment forever and eventually get the better room you have been wishing for, stay positive Tim. Does your Denon bdp make a lot of noise when loading a disc? My 1611 is pretty noisy when loading anything and the disc tray seems pretty flimsy and cheap. You have a higher model than mine so I would assume that it's got higher quality build than mine does. Other than that I'm happy with it so far, much better than the Panasonic it replaced.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/20386613
> 
> 
> You may not be in apartment forever and eventually get the better room you have been wishing for, stay positive Tim. Does your Denon bdp make a lot of noise when loading a disc? My 1611 is pretty noisy when loading anything and the disc tray seems pretty flimsy and cheap. You have a higher model than mine so I would assume that it's got higher quality build than mine does. Other than that I'm happy with it so far, much better than the Panasonic it replaced.



The DBP-2010 is actually a very nice player. One of the things that I most like about it is that the disc loading is quiet and solid. It operates like what you would expect from a $700 player (when you can get a good player for less than half that). I got it for a steal on amazon too. Only $300 NIB from an authoirzed seller. If you don't need 3D, it is a great buy right now.


I wasn't trying to paint a negative picture when I commented on the apartment living conditions, just being realistic. I will do my damnedest to get a place to live that does have a better room layout, and the ability to listed at reasonably enthusiastic levels, but it may not be right away.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20386694
> 
> 
> The DBP-2010 is actually a very nice player. One of the things that I most like about it is that the disc loading is quiet and solid. It operates like what you would expect from a $700 player (when you can get a good player for less than half that). I got it for a steal on amazon too. Only $300 NIB from an authoirzed seller. If you don't need 3D, it is a great buy right now.
> 
> 
> I wasn't trying to paint a negative picture when I commented on the apartment living conditions, just being realistic. I will do my damnedest to get a place to live that does have a better room layout, and the ability to listed at reasonably enthusiastic levels, but it may not be right away.



That's a sweet deal, I'm glad your enjoying it. I ran into a deal like that a few weeks ago, I managed to get some Paradigm Sig S1 v3's for $1100 NIB. They list for $2000, needless to say I jumped on them right away. I bought them to use as surrounds but have been experimenting with them as the fronts just for something to do. They don't really have any low bass to speak of but do everything else very well, I'm really impressed with them for such a small speaker. Next up is trying them out as height speakers instead of surround backs.


----------



## hifisponge

Paradigm will always have a fond place in my memory. I think they make very good sounding speakers at prices that are justified for the quality provided. Congrats on the great deal. I forget, what are your main speakers?


----------



## chjo100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20386594
> 
> 
> I'm afraid so LDG. I've got all that I need and I've tried all that I care to. Maybe in a few years I might consider different speakers, but it depends on a lot of things. Most of all, I fear that living in an apartment is going to kill the need for anything better.



If you are moving to an apartment I would insist you get to bring along your newly organized audio video rack. So what if you have to rip it out










I like the almost all black look. Certainly looks more organized them my components. Although I have to say I am partial to your all Classe look. To this day, one of my favorite aesthetics for components in a rack was the Classe CDP, SSP, Mac Mini, and Silver PWD...drool.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chjo100* /forum/post/20388500
> 
> 
> If you are moving to an apartment I would insist you get to bring along your newly organized audio video rack. So what if you have to rip it out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like the almost all black look. Certainly looks more organized them my components. Although I have to say I am partial to your all Classe look. *To this day, one of my favorite aesthetics for components in a rack was the Classe CDP, SSP, Mac Mini, and Silver PWD...drool.*



Mine too. It was my dream system. Looking back on it, it does seem rather rash of me to have sold it all off, but at the time, it was causing more frustration that it was worth.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20388196
> 
> 
> Paradigm will always have a fond place in my memory. I think they make very good sounding speakers at prices that are justified for the quality provided. Congrats on the great deal. I forget, what are your main speakers?



I recently sold my whole system except for the sub and started over, I'll give you a recap.


Old system as of 2 months ago,

Marantz AV 7005

Emotiva UPA-1 monblock x 5

Paradigm Studio 100 v5

Paradigm Syudio cc 690 v5

Paradigm ADP 590 v5

Paradigm Sub 15

Panasonic BDP-60


New system,

Anthem MRX 700

Parasound Halo A 23

Paradigm Signature S2 v3

Paradigm Signature C3 v3

Paradigm Signature ADP 1 v2

Paradigm S1 v3

Paradigm Sub 15

Denon UD 1611


I've always liked a good set of stand mount monitors and decided to go back to that type of system and wanted to up the quality a bit. At this point in time I'm happy with how everything sounds, in the near future I'll be upgrading to dual subs of a different variety than what I have now. The next thing will be addressing the room acoustics and then I'm going to call it done and move on to saving for a sports car. BTW have you decided to attend any Porsche Owners Club track days this summer?


----------



## hifisponge

That's a great new system you've put together. And yes, I think that you could easily start moving you money towards other manly past times like, sports cars and never really have to worry if you are missing out.


My life is full of change and compromise right now, and I actually just traded in the Porsche for a VW GTI. It isn't the head turner that the Porsche was, but is it is fun car and in some ways I like it better than the 10 year old Porsche. The fact that the GTI is new, helps put my mind at ease about large out of pocket expenses and there were a couple of things that really bugged me about the Porsche. Even though the interior looked like new, it sounded like it was coming apart at the seams on rough roads. The creaking, rattling and squeaking drove me nuts. And even though it was a "shiftable" Tiptronic automatic, it was still an automatic, which is no replacement for the level of driver involvement of a true manual.


So really, starting over seems to be a common theme for me right now.


----------



## weird 23

I like your choice, a friend of mine has a two year old GTI and it's quite nice actually. He's having fun with it and has added a few bolt on parts and it's surprisingly fast. After the subs and room acoustics I'll have reached my threshold for how much I'm willing to spend on a system. There'll always be something that's supposed to be better but I'm comfortable with what I have now. Was the Porsche your daily driver? I can see how you would be worried about repair bills with that car, they definitely aren't cheap to fix or service. If you get the chance before you move a viewing of Tron Legacy would be something great to flex your system a bit. That is if you haven't watched it already, if you have what did you think? In my opinion the soundtrack is probably the best I've heard yet.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/20390384
> 
> 
> I like your choice, a friend of mine has a two year old GTI and it's quite nice actually. He's having fun with it and has added a few bolt on parts and it's surprisingly fast. After the subs and room acoustics I'll have reached my threshold for how much I'm willing to spend on a system. There'll always be something that's supposed to be better but I'm comfortable with what I have now. Was the Porsche your daily driver? I can see how you would be worried about repair bills with that car, they definitely aren't cheap to fix or service. If you get the chance before you move a viewing of Tron Legacy would be something great to flex your system a bit. That is if you haven't watched it already, if you have what did you think? In my opinion the soundtrack is probably the best I've heard yet.



Speaking of "bolt on" mods for the GTI, I just had the ECU reprogrammed to give me 50 more HP and close 100 more ft pounds of torque!







It's amazing how much VW restricts the power available from the stock motor. I can't really get a full feel of the added power, since I'm still breaking in the motor, but once the turbo winds up, it really starts to pull. In another 1000 miles or so, I can start pushing it closer to red line to see what it can really do.


I saw Tron in the theater, but haven't yet viewed / listened at home. Thanks for the reminder. I'll put it in my queue.


----------



## weird 23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20390900
> 
> 
> Speaking of "bolt on" mods for the GTI, I just had the ECU reprogrammed to give me 50 more HP and close 100 more ft pounds of torque!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's amazing how much VW restricts the power available from the stock motor. I can't really get a full feel of the added power, since I'm still breaking in the motor, but once the turbo winds up, it really starts to pull. In another 1000 miles or so, I can start pushing it closer to red line to see what it can really do.
> 
> 
> I saw Tron in the theater, but haven't yet viewed / listened at home. Thanks for the reminder. I'll put it in my queue.



I think they restrict the power that for reliability and also to be able to offer a higher powered version at a later date for a healthy premium. My father had the same thing done to my step mothers Audi A3 ( same engine as yours ) I've driven it a few times and it really pulls nicely. Did you get the DSG trans or a manual? Any other mods planned?


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20390110
> 
> 
> My life is full of change and compromise right now, and I actually just traded in the Porsche for a VW GTI



wow, nothing like having something new. GTI is a fun little car.


----------



## WestCoastD

Also, you're probably familiar with Neuspeed? They are probably one of the after-market accessory leaders for VW (GTI's), Honda/Acura and now Mini
http://www.neuspeed.com/splash.aspx


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weird 23* /forum/post/20390966
> 
> 
> I think they restrict the power that for reliability and also to be able to offer a higher powered version at a later date for a healthy premium. My father had the same thing done to my step mothers Audi A3 ( same engine as yours ) I've driven it a few times and it really pulls nicely. Did you get the DSG trans or a manual? Any other mods planned?



While I like the idea of the DSG auto trans, I find that for me to really feel engaged when driving that I need a manual, so that's what I went with. I'm not going to go too mod crazy, but I'll probably drop it to close the gap between wheel and wheel well and to give it a sportier stance. I also swapped out the OEM US tail lights for the OEM Euro tails, had it tinted and clear bra.


OEM US










OEM Euro


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20392601
> 
> 
> I'm not going to go too mod crazy, but I'll probably drop it to close the gap between wheel and wheel well and to give it a sportier stance. I also swapped out the OEM US tail lights for the OEM Euro tails, had it tinted and clear bra



yeah, keep it clean. I have'nt done anything to my new Cooper Mini-S, been very happy with stock performance for over a year now. But I'm really wanting different wheels (switch from 17's to 18's) and springs/shocks for a more firm and slightly lower, properly leveled, ride. Although the pot-holes are so bad here in L.A. it's nice having a more forgiving wheel package (with higher aspect ratio).


Hmmm, never heard of a "clear" bra? (a new fashion statement)


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/20393180
> 
> 
> yeah, keep it clean. I have'nt done anything to my new Cooper Mini-S, been very happy with stock performance for over a year now. But I'm really wanting different wheels (switch from 17's to 18's) and springs/shocks for a more firm and slightly lower, properly leveled, ride. Although the pot-holes are so bad here in L.A. it's nice having a more forgiving wheel package (with higher aspect ratio).
> 
> 
> Hmmm, never heard of a "clear" bra? (a new fashion statement)



Yeah, definitely going to keep it clean, but make a few changes to give it just a bit sportier look and feel.


The clear bra is a transparent 3M film that is wrapped around the nose of the car so you don get rock chips. Works very well and it is nearly invisible.


You can see it being installed on car here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-LO95vkNqg 


Go to about the 2 minute mark in the video.


----------



## Waboman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20390110
> 
> 
> My life is full of change and compromise right now, and I actually just traded in the Porsche for a VW GTI.



That's a big change. On the bright side, Tim. You kept it in the same family.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20393497
> 
> 
> Yeah, definitely going to keep it clean, but make a few changes to give it just a bit sportier look and feel



"Euro-Style"



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20393497
> 
> 
> The clear bra is a transparent 3M film that is wrapped around the nose of the car so you don get rock chips. Works very well and it is nearly invisible



what a trip, never seen this stuff. Is it semi-permanent? Do you leave it year-round? Then change it? It is cool because it's pretty much invisible so your car retains it's looks without hanging a traditional bulky (scratching) bra on it.


I was at the Mini dealer a few months back having my car serviced, I noticed a few new models on the show-room floor had this "flat" black sort of paint looking finish, with the popular (Mini) front hood stripes. I thought hmmmm, a flat black paint job on a new car? It looked pretty cool actually. But then I thought "how do you care for this non-glossy finish"? You can't wax it (I guess)? The sales-guy came over (as usual), I asked him about the finish, he mentioned that it was a new popular dealer-option referred to as "wrapping". He said they actually take a newly delivered car and send it out to a vendor that specializes in applying colored and textured film on top of the stock factory paint job. This particular Mini had flat black wrapping with red hood stripes, it looked cool. The film (or wrap) was trimmed on the hood to allow the factory red finish (underneath) to appear as stripes on the hood (quite an "illusion"). I was totally stumped by this. Maybe you've seen this before? The sales guy said their vendor does just about any color/texture you can imagine. And it can be removed at anytime to reveal factory finish underneath. Dealer sticker price for this option showed $3200.00 added to MSRP. haaa!


----------



## hifisponge

Yes, the clear bra protection film is semi-permanent, in that you could have it removed at some point if you no longer wanted it on the car, but it is intended to stay on there for as long as you own the car. The only reason to remove it would be if it got gouged and you needed to replace part of it. It is a few mils thick and resilient so it works really well at preventing rock chips. And as you noticed, it is virtually invisible so you can retain the look of the car.


Full body wrapping.... yup, if you go onto any of the car enthusiast forums, you are bound to see a few of these. While I can appreciate the creativity of the look, it isn't personally something I would do. That is, I really like some of the crazy mods people do to their rides, but at the same time I would feel silly driving one.


----------



## alebonau

wow ! welcome to club GTI !


this is my baby here, just on one year old now




























best car have ever owned







great to hear your enjoying yours as well !


----------



## hifisponge

Hey Al -


Good to see that there is another member here that can appreciate my new ride. I am very impressed with the quality and performance of the GTI, especially with the ECU reprogramming that boosts the HP. This car is downright scary at times in its acceleration now.


Yours still looks brand new, which can only mean that you really do like it enough to take great care of it.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alebonau* /forum/post/20484230
> 
> 
> wow ! welcome to club GTI, this is my baby here, just on one year old now



a trailer-hitch on a GTI? what do you pull (with a 4-cylinder)? A boat? A mobile home?


----------



## sstiles4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20343055
> 
> 
> Realistically, neither of us expect that to happen, but never say never.



Hello Hifi, sorry to hear about your separation. In case you dont remember me, I was the one that bought your extra Monitor Audio GSLCR speaker to use for my center channel. It just so happens I was going thru a seperation at the same time as I was making the purchase 4 years ago (Also purchased my NAD 785AVR and the rest of the Monitor Audio "gold" speakers at the same time lol). So I guess I know what you are going thru. Every situation is different but good luck to you, in the long run it was best for me and I am sure it will all work out for you as well.


I was wondering how you like using the Mac Mini as your music server? I currently have all of my music downloaded to an ipod and I find myself using that (connected to my NAD AVR with a dock) more and more instead of putting the actual CD into my OPPO. The thought of using the mac mini really interest me, especially now that the new version offers HDMI output. Any suggestions? I feel like using the ipod I am missing out on music quality (especiallsince the dock is just using the standard RCA cables). Thank you.


Scott


----------



## hifisponge

Hi Scott -


Good to hear from you and thanks for the words of encouragement. Sorry I didn't get this message until now, but I have been spending a lot less time in this hobby and on these boards.


I love using my Mac as a music server, and I highly recommend it. You might get a small gain in sound quality by going from the RCA connection of your ipod to the digital connection on the Mac Mini, but I wouldn't expect it to be night and day. I've come to find that the sound quality provided by even small or inexpensive sources is quite good these days (as long as the media isn't overly compressed).


The bigger gain for me is the sheer convenience of using a music server vs single disc listening. It's great to have instant access to all of my music and the ability to shuffle ALL of the content. I'm still hearing music that I didn't even know that I owned.


----------



## 3In2Out

Figured Id chime in too since Ive been following your thread. GTI owner myself, this is my second one. Its a 2006 6spd.


If you are wanting to add another good jump in power, toss on a 3" down pipe...even bolted to the stock exhaust you'll pick up a nice gain.


Mods currently are 18" BBS RK, Revo stage 2 software, 3" turbo back exhaust, Evoms CIA, BSH PCV fix, BSH torque arm insert, AWE boost gauge, H&R sport springs, 42DD shifter bushings (one of my favorite mods and CHEAP), painted plastics and ESE color Matched side Markers.


I dont plan on doing much more to it...it has decent power, a good ride, and looks pretty decent to me. Fun cars.


----------



## pcweber111

When did this become a vee-dub forum?


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *pcweber111* 
When did this become a vee-dub forum?
This temporarily became a car enthusiast thread when I ran out of interest in constantly changing my HT set-up. A guy needs something to keep him busy.










Now all we need are pics of hot chicks and we'll have all the boy's toys covered.










PS: Check out page one of this thread if you need an AV fix.


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *3In2Out* 
Figured Id chime in too since Ive been following your thread. GTI owner myself, this is my second one. Its a 2006 6spd.


If you are wanting to add another good jump in power, toss on a 3" down pipe...even bolted to the stock exhaust you'll pick up a nice gain.


Mods currently are 18" BBS RK, Revo stage 2 software, 3" turbo back exhaust, Evoms CIA, BSH PCV fix, BSH torque arm insert, AWE boost gauge, H&R sport springs, 42DD shifter bushings (one of my favorite mods and CHEAP), painted plastics and ESE color Matched side Markers.


I dont plan on doing much more to it...it has decent power, a good ride, and looks pretty decent to me. Fun cars.









Looks fantastic! I actually like the body style of the MK5 better than my MK6, but financially it worked out better for me to go new, plus I really wanted a warranty.


I'm very happy with the power I currently have, so at this point all I'd like to do is lower it and maybe get some different wheels. I really like the stock "detroits" though.


You say you have "decent" power. What sort of HP are you getting with your performance mods?


Are those rocker panel covers stock, just painted?


----------



## 3In2Out




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20610580
> 
> 
> Looks fantastic! I actually like the body style of the MK5 better than my MK6, but financially it worked out better for me to go new, plus I really wanted a warranty.
> 
> 
> I'm very happy with the power I currently have, so at this point all I'd like to do is lower it and maybe get some different wheels. I really like the stock "detroits" though.
> 
> 
> You say you have "decent" power. What sort of HP are you getting with your performance mods?
> 
> 
> Are those rocker panel covers stock, just painted?



Thanks! Yeah, there is things I like and dislike about the MK5 and MK6 styles. Ive owned a couple MK4 styles too. Hard to argue with a warranty thats for sure.


Yeah, mine had the 18" Huffs when I bought it, I wanted to go with a lighter weight wheel. 18.1lbs a piece compared to 28lbs a piece for the Huffs. Thats a big difference in unsprung weight.


I believe about the norm with my mods and a stage 1 tune is around 230whp and 290wtq. Im on a stage 2 tune, but doubt its more than about 5-10 more HP at the most. Nothing earth shattering of course, but good for fun around town. But yeah, your biggest basic gains are going to be from a tune and exhaust work.


Yep, those are the stock ones that are just smoothed and painted. Front, sides and rear.


Check out companies like BSH Speed Shop, ECS Tuning, etc if you are looking to tinker.


Id post the ladies with my old Toyota Pickup that ran in MiniTruckin Magazine, but I dont want to upset the A/V masses! Heres a link so we somewhat have that covered in the thread too...

http://www.minitruckinweb.com/featur...kup/index.html 


Ok, enough car talk from me in your thread. But, ya know how it goes when you get gear heads talking.


----------



## hifisponge

3in -


Don't sweat the car talk. This is my thread and I'm fine with it. It won't last forever.










So what motor type is in your MK5?


Nice work on the color matched lower trim bits. Looks much cleaner than the flat black that come stock.


I'm leaning towards these rims when / if I go that route.











Thanks for the link to the tattoo'd naughty hotties. Oh and the truck is cool too.


----------



## 3In2Out

I believe VMR makes wheels that look very similar to those. A lot of the VW guys run them. http://www.velocitymotoring.com/ 


Mine is just the 2.0T FSI motor. Other than the rabbits or an R32, its the only engine option available in the normal GTIs.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3In2Out* /forum/post/20624083
> 
> 
> I believe VMR makes wheels that look very similar to those. A lot of the VW guys run them. http://www.velocitymotoring.com/
> 
> 
> Mine is just the 2.0T FSI motor. Other than the rabbits or an R32, its the only engine option available in the normal GTIs.



Yeah, that is a pretty popular wheel choice of GTI owners, which is why I hesitate to even bother. Thankfully, the stock "premium" wheels (the Detroit model) is already a head turner for most normal people (not hard core GTI fans). Some cars really need a wheel change to get them to come out of their shell, but the GTI really isn't one of them IMO.


They've changed to a "TSI" motor for the current model year, but from what I understand, it is largely the same as the FSI.


----------



## 3In2Out

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
Yeah, that is a pretty popular wheel choice of GTI owners, which is why I hesitate to even bother. Thankfully, the stock "premium" wheels (the Detroit model) is already a head turner for most normal people (not hard core GTI fans). Some cars really need a wheel change to get them to come out of their shell, but the GTI really isn't one of them IMO.


They've changed to a "TSI" motor for the current model year, but from what I understand, it is largely the same as the FSI.
Yeah, I loved my Huffs, they looked great for a stock wheel. I wouldnt mind running them again actually. But, would be hard to give up the lighter weight wheels. You are right, wheels make or break a cars appearance much more than people realize.


Correct, I think they started the TSI motor is mid 2008 or so. You luckily have the roller bearing cam follower, were as the FSI has a plain metal can like cam follower. They wear prematurely and can eat of the intake cam and high pressure fuel pump on the FSI motors. One just has to change out the cam follower every 40-50K miles to avoid that though.


----------



## hifisponge

Over the past few nights I've been powering up the Mac Mini and letting the tunes flow as I enjoy my new found freedom as a bachelor, but something was off. I could crank the crap out of the volume and yet the sound seemed so flat and lifeless-- like all of the dynamics of the music had been squashed. And why was it that I had to set the volume as much as 12 dB higher than I used to to get to what sounded "loud"?


I checked the volume control within iTunes and that was fine, I went into iTunes preferences to see if I had sound leveling on, checked to see if the input level in the AVR was low, checked the Audyssey EQ settings, and everything seemed to be as it was supposed to be.


I was just about to do a CPU reset on the AVR, when I noticed a little light on the face of the unit that read "night".


Yup, a while back I had engaged the nighttime dynamic compression feature for my wife and totally forgot about. Dug through a few of the set-up menus in the AVR until I could find the night mode function. Turned it off and all is well in the world of audio again.


Phew!










Looking back on the sound quality with the night mode engaged, it is surprising the effect that dynamic compression has on the sound. All of the musical information is there, but the bass has no impact, the highs sound muffled and lose all "sparkle", the mids have no bite, and the sound stage is two-dimensional.


Funny that even after 15 years in the hobby, that my system can be brought to its knees with just one small thing out of place. There are so many functions / variables in performing set-up of a modern sound system that it is no wonder that so many people struggle to get it all firing properly.


Anyway, just a funny little story that I felt like passing along.


----------



## drewTT

Haha...loving the sudden car theme change here. I am a huge euro car fan as well having owned a Porsche, BMW, and Audi.


----------



## hifisponge

Hey Drew -


Yeah, as of late this has turned into a thread about boys toys in general, though there is still plenty of interesting reading about AV if you don't mind wading through 54 pages.


----------



## g_bartman

Ok, I'll join the toy parade


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *g_bartman* /forum/post/20695590
> 
> 
> Ok, I'll join the toy parade




Ha! Well so much for trying to get this thread back on track. So tell me about your toy. Any mods or secret compartments?


----------



## g_bartman

No mods yet, I just got it 6 weeks ago. I did remove the Bose system and replaced it with a real system.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *g_bartman* /forum/post/20697836
> 
> 
> No mods yet, I just got it 6 weeks ago. I did remove the Bose system and replaced it with a real system.



Good man. My GTI came with a Dynaudio system, so no pressing need to replace it. I might add a sub, but that's about it.


----------



## CorboDuze

I had a chance to listen to the Dynaudio C1 Signature today. They were powered by Simaudio 600i integrated amp. The source was Simaudio 650D CD/DAC transport. All this was connected with Shunyata cables. The source was either CD or some Ipod connected to the DAC.


I loved the sound. To my ears, it sounded perfectly balanced, very clear. I really liked it very much.


After reading about all the problems you encountered, I was obviously quite curious about these speakers. After hearing them - Ok it was not the same pair of speakers you had - I think the harshness you witnessed had some other origin. I did not hear anything that could be called harsh in the system today. The representative from Dynaudio confirmed to me that some time is needed for the speakers to open up but he said the sound is initially "veiled" and not harsh. He also confirmed that these speakers are in his own words "very revealing".


In terms of positioning, the speakers were very far from any walls, much farther than they probably were in your room (judging by the pictures). How much of a factor the cables are playing is still an interrogation for me. The Shunyata Anaconda certainly did a good job. For the record, the price tag was $3499 for a pair of 2m speaker cables and $2499 for the 1m interconnect. I must admit it is difficult for me to keep a straight face when reading those numbers, but I cannot deny that as a whole, the system did really perform very well.


Regarding the electronics, the Dynaudio representative confirmed that Simaudio was a good synergy but he said others like Naim would work well too.


If you want to come to San Francisco this week-end, this is at the California Audio Show near the airport.


----------



## hifisponge

Hey Corbo -


I don't know if you saw it when I posted it in this thread a while back, but eventually ALL of the edgy / shouty quality of the C1's I owned did go away. Right at the 300 hour mark, they became, as you put it, "perfectly balanced".


Looking back at it, I should have probably kept the C1s, but unfortunately, at the time, I was so burnt out on analyzing the sound quality of my system, I think I had mistaken the new found neutrality of the C1's for being boring / un-involving. I've certainly heard more dynamically expressive speakers than the C1's, but I don't think they are below average in that area.


I'm still not a cable believer, and based on all of my experimentation in that area over the years, I don't think I will ever be.


----------



## sdurani




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19872844
> 
> 
> So it seems that the new shiny box from Lexicon to replace the aging MC12HD processor is...


----------



## hifisponge

Oh sure, just when I'm trying to get out of this insatiable hobby, there is always some new toy trying to pull me back in!










Do we have price yet?


You gettin' one to replace your Lex?


edit: looks like the MSRP is $14000. Youch! Might be a while for me before I take the plunge on this guy.


----------



## sdurani




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20827086
> 
> 
> Oh sure, just when I'm trying to get out of this insatiable hobby, there is always some new toy trying to pull me back in!



Brand new room correction and surround processing. 16 channels: standard 7.1 + 5 height channels + 4 subwoofer outputs. Of course you're expected to use as many or as few speakers as you can accomodate. The room correction ( 



 ) and new processing (Quantum Logic) will be effective, irrespective of the number of channels/speakers used.


> Quote:
> _You gettin' one to replace your Lex?_



Depends on the trade-in deal. If I can't afford it, then I'll just wait for next model down.


> Quote:
> _looks like the MSRP is $14000_



Higher.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sdurani* /forum/post/20827151
> 
> 
> Depends on the trade-in deal. If I can't afford it, then I'll just wait for next model down.



Now if you only had a dollar for every post that you've made ....


----------



## chjo100

The articles says higher than the anticipated 11-14k price. 15k?! 18k?! I've been thinking what's been lacking in most setups is an additional five speakers dedicated as height channels... It's time Tim to bring this thread back with a bang. Get this new Lexicon MP-20, purchase five more WB speakers and mount them on the ceiling. Then while you are at it upgrade to 10 mono amplifiers to power each speaker.


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *chjo100* 
The articles says higher than the anticipated 11-14k price. 15k?! 18k?! I've been thinking what's been lacking in most setups is an additional five speakers dedicated as height channels... It's time Tim to bring this thread back with a bang. Get this new Lexicon MP-20, purchase five more WB speakers and mount them on the ceiling. Then while you are at it upgrade to 10 mono amplifiers to power each speaker.
I'm taking donations, starting ... now!










BTW - I will need 7more speakers, not just 5, since I"m running old-skool 5.1 right now.


----------



## weird 23

What's up Hifi? How are things going in your neck of the woods? Instead of going with the new Lexicon are you still planning to get the firmware update for your Denon? I was having a few problems with my Anthem AVR and luckily the new firmware solved everything, I'm happy with it again. The only changes I've made lately have been replacing my Paradigm Sub 15 with a Seaton SubMersive HP, it's larger and somewhat uglier but the performance increase has been great. My system is in the basement so sometimes looks are not the most important factor, if it was in the living room it would be a different story.


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *weird 23* 
What's up Hifi? How are things going in your neck of the woods? Instead of going with the new Lexicon are you still planning to get the firmware update for your Denon? I was having a few problems with my Anthem AVR and luckily the new firmware solved everything, I'm happy with it again. The only changes I've made lately have been replacing my Paradigm Sub 15 with a Seaton SubMersive HP, it's larger and somewhat uglier but the performance increase has been great. My system is in the basement so sometimes looks are not the most important factor, if it was in the living room it would be a different story.
Hey W23 -


I have no real interest in the Lexicon prepro right now. For one, it is just too damn expensive, and for two, I'll probably be living in an apartment soon, so no need for new state-of-the-art AV gear. Although the Denon upgrade should be much more affordable I may not even do that. I'm quite happy with the performance of the current version of Audyssey in the 5308, and I don't care about 3D.


Congrats on the new sub. I'm sure it is a lot of fun.


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20845272
> 
> 
> Although the Denon upgrade should be much more affordable I may not even do that. I'm quite happy with the performance of the current version of Audyssey in the 5308, and I don't care about 3D.



Hi Tim,


The 5308 has MultEQ XT. XT32 is a vast improvement from the looks of the filter design based on Rickardl's post . Not just the higher selectivity at low frequencies but more importantly the lower selectivity at higher frequencies.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/20846582
> 
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> 
> The 5308 has MultEQ XT. XT32 is a vast improvement from the looks of the filter design based on Rickardl's post . Not just the higher selectivity at low frequencies but more importantly the lower selectivity at higher frequencies.



Yeah, I saw the graphs over in the Audyssey thread, and remarked on the improvement of XT32 over XT ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post20815252 ). I agree that the results look much better at both ends. I just don't know how much quality time I'll get with my system in the future, since I have to move out of my home and probably into an apartment.


----------



## mhrischuk

hifi,


I really enjoyed your picture time line, not only your system changes but also the room transformation over the years. Thank you so much for photographing and writing about your experiences. One thing for sure, what you experience... your ears and your room acoustics do make it somewhat of a custom review. I guess you can say the same of all reviews since each setup resides in a different environment and no matter what the results of that review were, ones personal sound criteria and room acoustics would make reviewing all of those same combinations, different.


I also like your non-biased comments regarding the differences between what is regarded as higher end -vs- just better equipment. For this reason alone, even though your writing skills are quite good, you would not make it as a professional writer for main stream audio publications










PS..... more dog pics please!


Mike


----------



## hifisponge

Hey Mike -


Thanks for visiting my little corner of AVS. I would make a terrible reviewer for the professional AV press wouldn't I. I'm just too honest.










Roxy says Hi ....


----------



## hifisponge

Had some free time this weekend and decided to take some proper pics of my current speaker system. I've added the pics below to the first post in this thread.

*Wilson Benesch Trinity, Centre and ARCs + JL F112 Home Theater*


----------



## Djoel

Love it, love the pictures it never gets old...I hope you get to move your system to where it is that you're moving into.



Dan


----------



## cavchameleon

Wow Tim!!! Always nice to read your tread to see you developments, you share so much with everyone in such a nice way. Thanks. Did I say WOW!!! I have to hear some WBs sometime...no dealer in our area.


Ray


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/20941603
> 
> 
> Love it, love the pictures it never gets old...I hope you get to move your system to where it is that you're moving into.
> 
> 
> 
> Dan



Pics are always great aren't they. I think everyone gets some level of voyeuristic satisfaction from being able to check out "other peoples property". You down with OPP? Yeah you know me!











I really need to pull a rabbit out of hat when it comes to looking for a new place. I can't think of ANY apartment living situation that is going to give the freedom to enjoy my sound system like I can now. But I don't want to rent out a detached house that looks like a time-warp back to the 70's or 80's either, which is probably all I can afford on my own.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavchameleon* /forum/post/20941727
> 
> 
> Wow Tim!!! Always nice to read your tread to see you developments, you share so much with everyone in such a nice way. Thanks. Did I say WOW!!! I have to hear some WBs sometime...no dealer in our area.
> 
> 
> Ray



Hey Ray! What do ya say?










I suppose I should be a bit more snobby considering the elite gear I have taste for.







But no smoking jackets or ascots for me, just a middle-class guy that happens to have an appreciation for quality, to the point that it could be considered a sickness.










Your appreciation of my conduct means a lot to me. I just try to put out there what I want and appreciate from others. Even though I don't always agree with the choices that others make in this hobby, I always keep in mind that we all share a common interest, and that there are many paths to the same destination.


So I took a peek at your homepage and see that you have an NHT Classic set-up. I have to say I've never met an NHT speaker I didn't like. What a great no-nonsense company that provides high-quality speakers for very reasonable prices. I hope they still continue to venture out into somewhat higher-end offerings like the XD system though. I'd certainly consider buying a sup'd up version of the Classic Three; something with a little more robust drivers.


----------



## cavchameleon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20942202
> 
> 
> Hey Ray! What do ya say?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose I should be a bit more snobby considering the elite gear I have taste for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But no smoking jackets or ascots for me, just a middle-class guy that happens to have an appreciation for quality, to the point that it could be considered a sickness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your appreciation of my conduct means a lot to me. I just try to put out there what I want and appreciate from others. Even though I don't always agree with the choices that others make in this hobby, I always keep in mind that we all share a common interest, and that there are many paths to the same destination.
> 
> 
> So I took a peek at your homepage and see that you have an NHT Classic set-up. I have to say I've never met an NHT speaker I didn't like. What a great no-nonsense company that provides high-quality speakers for very reasonable prices. I hope they still continue to venture out into somewhat higher-end offerings like the XD system though. I'd certainly consider buying a sup'd up version of the Classic Three; something with a little more robust drivers.



Thanks Tim,


NHT's are within what I can afford and I have liked their sound for the price for many years (started out with them in the early 90's). I loved their XD and which they developed more into that area, but unfortunately due to the economy, not the route they went. In any case, it works for me. I'm always changing parts of my equipment (not at the level that you do) to try improve as much as possible (have gone with the Denon A100 for Audyssey XT32 and Pro calibration - got the kit, nice improvement in my room).


I've followed your thread since the beginning (been subscribed from the get-go), but did not participate as it's way above my experience with equipment (out of my price range). I have listened to the Revel Salons though, loved them. Your sharing and insight has been great and I think many can learn and appreciate this from you. You have a good ear and appreciate the eye candy of equipment (your equipment has always been real cool to look at). I'm hoping someday to experience such in my own room (right now my main focus has to be my family - have a 5yo son that really keeps me busy). BTW, he already is learning to appreciate 'better' sound - he always comments when he likes it and can sit down listening to music for over an hour at a time...


Keep us posted and also wishing you the best in your personal life.


Ray


----------



## BWG707

Good pictures. Great work with the camera. They actually look professional. What type of camera was used?


----------



## mhrischuk

JL F112.... a company that puts the sub controls on the front?


Seems like common sense... wish mine were like that. My SVS PB13 Ultra weighs 155 lbs. With the back against the wall it's a pain to have to make any changes.

Wow I just saw on the SVS website they raised the prices of my sub by $300.


----------



## Djoel











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20942126
> 
> 
> Pics are always great aren't they. I think everyone gets some level of voyeuristic satisfaction from being able to check out "other peoples property". You down with OPP? Yeah you know me!



They're sure are







I think I suffer more from that than most folks







I just need to see. Yea you know me







Oh the good old days when hip hop had a message











> Quote:
> I really need to pull a rabbit out of hat when it comes to looking for a new place. I can't think of ANY apartment living situation that is going to give the freedom to enjoy my sound system like I can now. But I don't want to rent out a detached house that looks like a time-warp back to the 70's or 80's either, which is probably all I can afford on my own.



Hm, you never know, I sure there's a hood where it's lively







around your beautiful state, area, where they don't really mind a little Naughty By Natute late at night from time to time.


There's this place here in the city, or to be a bit more precise The Bronx, (tah,taaah, taaaaa) which has a stigma all on it's own, but it up in coming they have these nice raw inexpensive lofts huge spaces..I would love to move around there, but my gal refuses...mainly because it's "the Bronx" Hell she wont move to the ritzier area in the bogie down, where you wouldn't never know where you are.Why because it's the Bronx










Dan


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavchameleon* /forum/post/20942968
> 
> 
> Thanks Tim,
> 
> 
> NHT's are within what I can afford and I have liked their sound for the price for many years (started out with them in the early 90's). I loved their XD and which they developed more into that area, but unfortunately due to the economy, not the route they went. In any case, it works for me. I'm always changing parts of my equipment (not at the level that you do) to try improve as much as possible (have gone with the Denon A100 for Audyssey XT32 and Pro calibration - got the kit, nice improvement in my room).
> 
> 
> I've followed your thread since the beginning (been subscribed from the get-go), but did not participate as it's way above my experience with equipment (out of my price range). I have listened to the Revel Salons though, loved them. Your sharing and insight has been great and I think many can learn and appreciate this from you. You have a good ear and appreciate the eye candy of equipment (your equipment has always been real cool to look at). I'm hoping someday to experience such in my own room (right now my main focus has to be my family - have a 5yo son that really keeps me busy). BTW, he already is learning to appreciate 'better' sound - he always comments when he likes it and can sit down listening to music for over an hour at a time...
> 
> 
> Keep us posted and also wishing you the best in your personal life.
> 
> 
> Ray



I don't think much justification is needed in your choice of gear. As I state in the first post of this thread, I find that there is often very little correlation between sound quality and price, and in my experience, the Classic NHT line is as good and in some cases better than some of the high-end speakers I've heard / owned.


That is a great story about your son. There may be hope for the future of music appreciation after all.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BWG707* /forum/post/20943028
> 
> 
> Good pictures. Great work with the camera. They actually look professional. What type of camera was used?



Thanks much. I think my pics are decent, but not great. I just can't seem to get the lighting right and that crystal clarity you see on some of the pics in this forum.


For example, check out the pics of this guy's set-up:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1040953 


Now that is professional looking.


Anyway, I took my pics with a point-n-shoot Canon PowerShot.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/20943360
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hm, you never know, I sure there's a hood where it's lively
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> around your beautiful state, area, where they don't really mind a little Naughty By Natute late at night from time to time.
> 
> 
> There's this place here in the city, or to be a bit more precise The Bronx, (tah,taaah, taaaaa) which has a stigma all on it's own, but it up in coming they have these nice raw inexpensive lofts huge spaces..I would love to move around there, but my gal refuses...mainly because it's "the Bronx" Hell she wont move to the ritzier area in the bogie down, where you wouldn't never know where you are.Why because it's the Bronx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dan



That's what I need to find. Some sort of hidden gem on the outskirts, or something like a mother-in-law's apartment off the back of someone's property.


----------



## ddgtr

Tim, looks good as usual, especially those Trinitys. Kick-ass pics, too!


Had I lived a bit closer I would offer to help you move... Hope you'll find a nice place soon.


Cheers!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddgtr* /forum/post/20946990
> 
> 
> Tim, looks good as usual, especially those Trinitys. Kick-ass pics, too!
> 
> 
> Had I lived a bit closer I would offer to help you move... Hope you'll find a nice place soon.
> 
> 
> Cheers!



Hey bud -


Good to hear from you and very generous of you to offer to help me move.










I need a change of scenery, as I've been in this house for 12 years now, but if I can't find a place that will let me have some fun with my system, I think a piece of my soul will wither up and die.


----------



## hifisponge

I decided to make a trip to downtown Seattle just to get some exposure to some speakers I hadn't heard yet. I have to say that what I heard today gave me a new appreciation for my system. Nothing I listened to in the stores today compelled me to want to part with the WB + Denon.


I should mention that the main demo room at the shop I went to (Speakerlab) is square, and the second I walked in, I knew what I was going to experience -- one note, ill-defined bass. Sure enough, that is exactly what I got. When will dealers learn? Get someone in there to knock out a wall, or put in a false wall so you don't end up with $8500 speakers that have bass that sounds like a $50 subwoofer. The bass was so muddy and boomy that it made it hard for me to hear what the mid / treble was really doing. After a few songs, I told the sales person to kick the system out of direct mode so I could turn the bass control down. A -4dB cut to the bass helped to ameliorate the problems caused by the room but of course it was only a band aid.


Focal Electra 1028Be - I owned the previous gen 1037Bes which I found to be very harsh through the upper mids / lower treble. I'd read that Focal had reworked the cross-over and revised the tweeter design in the 1XX8 series which was supposed make them less aggressive so I wanted to see if this was true. Based on what I heard they did in fact tame the nastiness in the speaker, but they still sounded mildly etched, providing what felt like a false sense of detail. They lacked finesse. Imaging was crap and they could still border on a hard / aggressive sound when the volume was pushed up.


Revel Performa F32 - Typical of Revel, the tonal balance was spot-on and imaging had good specificity. At first, I thought that these might give the Vivid Audio speakers (my current reference for sound quality) a run for the money. There is a crispness and clarity to the sound that is initially alluring, but nearing the end of my audition, I could feel some listener fatigue setting in. I also started to pick up on the same dry / clinical sound that I didn't like about the Revel Studio2s I used to own. When I pushed the volume up, it was just too much, turning noticeably bright and shouty.


Paradigm Studio 60 - Didn't spend a lot of time with this guy. A pleasant enough listen, but it lacked the resolution of a great speaker. Good soundstage width and more enveloping than the Focal or Revel. This was one of the things I liked about the Paradigm Sigs when I owned them. It seemed like a good speaker for the money. Well balanced and easy to listen to.


KEF Q500 - Too bass heavy, with a lack of definition down low to boot. Mids and highs were easy on the ears, but nothing special. A decent speaker for $1400 a pair.


Golden Ear Triton 2 - This speaker was much more "relaxed" than I expected it to be, considering they were designed by the Def Tech guy, which are usually pretty sizzlely. The ribbon tweet has a nice delicate quality to it, but the mids lacked resolution in relation to the tweeter. The bass reached almost subwoofer low and it had adequate definition, but not great. Still a very good speaker for the money and I could easily recommend it to someone looking for a full range speaker in the $2.5K price range.


----------



## Djoel

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hifisponge* 
I decided to make a trip to downtown Seattle just to get some exposure to some speakers I hadn't heard yet. I have to say that what I heard today gave me a new appreciation for my system. Nothing I listened to in the stores today compelled me to want to part with the WB + Denon.
There's nothing like a trip to your friendly neighborhood audio shop just to see that your system still kicks ass







Man great to hear you're back on active duty testing the waters.

Quote:

I should mention that the main demo room at the shop I went to (Speakerlab) is square, and the second I walked in, I knew what I was going to experience -- one note, ill-defined bass. Sure enough, that is exactly what I got. When will dealers learn? Get someone in there to knock out a wall, or put in a false wall so you don't end up with $8500 speakers that have bass that sounds like a $50 subwoofer. The bass was so muddy and boomy that it made it hard for me to hear what the mid / treble was really doing. After a few songs, I told the sales person to kick the system out of direct mode so I could turn the bass control down. A -4dB cut to the bass helped to ameliorate the problems caused by the room but of course it was only a band aid.
That's a real shame, can you imagine how many potential buyers have walked out those room disappointed simply because improper room, and lack of diffusers, absorbing material, panels etc..


Quote:

Golden Ear Triton 2 - This speaker was much more "relaxed" than I expected it to be, considering they were designed by the Def Tech guy, which are usually pretty sizzlely. The ribbon tweet has a nice delicate quality to it, but the mids lacked resolution in relation to the tweeter. The bass reached almost subwoofer low and it had adequate definition, but not great. Still a very good speaker for the money and I could easily recommend it to someone looking for a full range speaker in the $2.5K price range.
This is the biggest surprise for me, I've owned a few Def Tech and always thought the highs were to Tss, Tss, spity sounding.. I though it was because of cheap tweeters design. Glad they, or Sandy took note..Perhaps I should start reading the Golden Ear threads.


Thanks for your thoughts Tim, hope you at least had some fun at the end.



Daniel


----------



## hifisponge

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Djoel* 
That's a real shame, can you imagine how many potential buyers have walked out those room disappointed simply because improper room, and lack of diffusers, absorbing material, panels etc..
Exactly. I don't know how anyone who would be willing to shell out $5K to $8.5K for the Revels or the Focals after listening to them in a square demo room. I had a similar experience when I auditioned the Focal 1027Be's a few years back. Different dealer, but yet another square room. We worked for at least half an hour trying to find a position for the speaker and/or the listening position where the bass sounded right-- no luck. The problem only shifted slightly up or down in frequency with each change. I finally asked the salesman to move the speakers over into the small rectangular room they were using as their HT room. Sure enough, placing the speakers in this room made a night and day improvement in the bass quality, which in-turn made the entire speaker sound better.


Quote:

This is the biggest surprise for me, I've owned a few Def Tech and always thought the highs were to Tss, Tss, spity sounding.. I though it was because of cheap tweeters design. Glad they, or Sandy took note..Perhaps I should start reading the Golden Ear threads.
It was a surprise for me too. The Golden Ear Triton 2 is an easily likable speaker and it has impressive qualities in just the right places (deep bass and a detailed yet non-aggressive treble) that I think many people would be happy with it.

Quote:

Thanks for your thoughts Tim, hope you at least had some fun at the end.
This trip was mainly just about getting out there and putting my ears on some reputable or high-buzz speakers, so yeah, I had fun.


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20966644
> 
> 
> Exactly. I don't know how anyone who would be willing to shell out $5K to $8.5K for the Revels or the Focals after listening to them in a square demo room. I had a similar experience when I auditioned the Focal 1027Be's a few years back. Different dealer, but yet another square room. We worked for at least half an hour trying to find a position for the speaker and/or the listening position where the bass sounded right-- no luck. The problem only shifted slightly up or down in frequency with each change. I finally asked the salesman to move the speakers over into the small rectangular room they were using as their HT room. Sure enough, placing the speakers in this room made a night and day improvement in the bass quality, which in-turn made the entire speaker sound better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was a surprise for me too. The Golden Ear Triton 2 is an easily likable speaker and it has impressive qualities in just the right places (deep bass and a detailed yet non-aggressive treble) that I think many people would be happy with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This trip was mainly just about getting out there and putting my ears on some reputable or high-buzz speakers, so yeah, I had fun.




The search button sucks big time of lately around here







Sorry I didn't see you're response until today Tim..


Any more auditioning for you in the upcoming weeks? I know it's been mention on here, but I gotta ask, but perhaps you haven't listen to these guys because of lack of dealers. Have you hear those MBL monitors? I forget the model numbers 121?101e, ect.. I hear the middle versions with the side subs, and they were the most amazing speakers I've heard in a long time...I don't know how piratical they would be in a real world setting, but they're pretty much my dream speakers now..So once things to settle down I think I would like a pair of gently use one.







probably being push by a bunch low level components lol..RCA, Technics, Zeniths, all 70's and early 80's tech










One more thing I would go to these high end show rooms with a hard hat and clip board, and tell them they need to shut down the place because unlawful listening area







And if things don't shape up, they'll be fined a few thousand dollars..I sure you have a few graphs, and equipment to pull the job











Djoel


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/20970438
> 
> 
> The search button sucks big time of lately around here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I didn't see you're response until today Tim..
> 
> 
> Any more auditioning for you in the upcoming weeks? I know it's been mention on here, but I gotta ask, but perhaps you haven't listen to these guys because of lack of dealers. Have you hear those MBL monitors? I forget the model numbers 121?101e, ect.. I hear the middle versions with the side subs, and they were the most amazing speakers I've heard in a long time...I don't know how piratical they would be in a real world setting, but they're pretty much my dream speakers now..So once things to settle down I think I would like a pair of gently use one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> probably being push by a bunch low level components lol..RCA, Technics, Zeniths, all 70's and early 80's tech



I haven't heard the MBL. Definitely one that I would like to hear though. A very unique design. As you mentioned though, no dealer here in WA so hard to get a listen.


Hey, I was just on the MBL website to do another check for local dealers, and you are in luck. They are now selling direct to the consumer at wholesale prices. No joke.


From their website:

"MBL of America now sells direct to customer at dealer prices. Contact us today and receive up to 40% discount of mbl products in stock!"

http://www.mbl-usa.com/contact-dealers.aspx 



> Quote:
> One more thing I would go to these high end show rooms with a hard hat and clip board, and tell them they need to shut down the place because unlawful listening area
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if things don't shape up, they'll be fined a few thousand dollars..I sure you have a few graphs, and equipment to pull the job



LOL. I'm on it. I can use all of the money I get from imposing fines to fund my speaker buying habbit.


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20970577
> 
> 
> I haven't heard the MBL. Definitely one that I would like to hear though. A very unique design. As you mentioned though, no dealer here in WA so hard to get a listen.
> 
> 
> Hey, I was just on the MBL website to do another check for local dealers, and you are in luck. They are now selling direct to the consumer at wholesale prices. No joke.



AHHHHHHHHHAHHHHHHHHHHH











> Quote:
> From their website:
> 
> "MBL of America now sells direct to customer at dealer prices. Contact us today and receive up to 40% discount of mbl products in stock!"
> 
> http://www.mbl-usa.com/contact-dealers.aspx



HOLY [email protected]$&







I'll need to look at that site, before I crap in my pants..











> Quote:
> LOL. I'm on it. I can use all of the money I get from imposing fines to fund my speaker buying habbit.



Hell I might have to do my own idea at this time, just heard some news of a 40% discount on some speakers I've been dreaming about







AHHHHHHHHAHHHHHH



Dan


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/20970679
> 
> 
> 
> HOLY [email protected]$&
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll need to look at that site, before I crap in my pants..



Look at it this way, if you do crap your pants, it could be a way to bond with new baby. You can share in the experience.













> Quote:
> Hell I might have to do my own idea at this time, just heard some news of a 40% discount on some speakers I've been dreaming about
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AHHHHHHHHAHHHHHH
> 
> 
> 
> Dan



It is a sign of the times that a uber high-end company like MBL would start selling direct. Makes you wonder if AV stores will be around for much longer.


----------



## Djoel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20970740
> 
> 
> Look at it this way, if you do crap your pants, it could be a way to bond with new baby. You can share in the experience.



True, very true







but she already thinks I'm nut that little act would cost me thousand in therapy















> Quote:
> It is a sign of the times that a uber high-end company like MBL would start selling direct. Makes you wonder if AV stores will be around for much longer.



WOW! I'm just floored by this news, Iwould like to give them a call just gotta do some home work. I sure it's still way out of my price range though.


Dan


----------



## Djoel

Just email them for price list, what would be killer is if they had a 30 day trial











Dan


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Djoel* /forum/post/20970984
> 
> 
> Just email them for price list, what would be killer is if they had a 30 day trial
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dan



Considering the "entry level" MBL floorstander is $29K, and the standmount is $16K, even at 40% off, you are still looking at shelling out some serious coin.










I've been kicking around the idea of buying the $16K Vivid Audio B1's (the small floorstander), which I can get for probably 30% off, but even that is a bit too much for me right now. Besides, it may be impractical depending on what my living situation will be when I move.


----------



## Conti027




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20964587
> 
> 
> I decided to make a trip to downtown Seattle just to get some exposure to some speakers I hadn't heard yet. I have to say that what I heard today gave me a new appreciation for my system. Nothing I listened to in the stores today compelled me to want to part with the WB + Denon.



Hi HiFiSponge, I live south of Seattle and am in the market for speakers. Seeing how you live north of Seattle I wanted to ask what are some good places to check out? I noticed you mentioned speakerlab.

You have a beautiful setup and pug.

I envy your setup.

Thank you


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Conti027* /forum/post/20972935
> 
> 
> Hi HiFiSponge, I live south of Seattle and am in the market for speakers. Seeing how you live north of Seattle I wanted to ask what are some good places to check out? I noticed you mentioned speakerlab.
> 
> You have a beautiful setup and pug.
> 
> I envy your setup.
> 
> Thank you



There aren't too many shops left these days. There is of course Magnolia, Definitive, Speakerlab, Nuts About Hi-Fi (Silverdale), Tune Hi-Fi (Seattle).


What is your budget? I may be able to give you some recommendations.


----------



## Conti027

Well I'm looking for small/mid size bookshelf speakers.

I saw a few that looked good

B&W- 686 or CM1

Paradigm Monitor 7- Mini Atom

Monitor Audio- R90HD, BX1, RX1

PSB- Image B4, Image Mini


Thos are just a few I've seen online but it comes down to what I can find in store so I can listen to them.


I'm new to this and not a audiophile. So for my first setup I don't want to spend to much. I would like to keep it around $200-300 for a single speaker but $200-300 isn't my limit. I just don't want go to overboard but I do want a nice setup.


I've been to the Besy Buy Magnolia. Thats where I heard the B&W.

I've walked pasted Tune Hi-Fi but didn't go in cause I wasn't in the market at the time.

Looks like I'm going to be doing a lot of driving on of these weekends.

Thank you for the help.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Conti027* /forum/post/20973393
> 
> 
> Well I'm looking for small/mid size bookshelf speakers.
> 
> I saw a few that looked good
> 
> B&W- 686 or CM1
> 
> Paradigm Monitor 7- Mini Atom
> 
> Monitor Audio- R90HD, BX1, RX1
> 
> PSB- Image B4, Image Mini
> 
> 
> Thos are just a few I've seen online but it comes down to what I can find in store so I can listen to them.
> 
> 
> I'm new to this and not a audiophile. So for my first setup I don't want to spend to much. I would like to keep it around $200-300 for a single speaker but $200-300 isn't my limit. I just don't want go to overboard but I do want a nice setup.
> 
> 
> I've been to the Besy Buy Magnolia. Thats where I heard the B&W.
> 
> I've walked pasted Tune Hi-Fi but didn't go in cause I wasn't in the market at the time.
> 
> Looks like I'm going to be doing a lot of driving on of these weekends.
> 
> Thank you for the help.



In the price range you are looking at, my highest recommendation goes to a speaker you won't be able to hear locally. You can order them direct with a 30 day, full money back in-home trial period though.


The NHT Classic Three - $399 each.
http://www.nhthifi.com/Three?sc=12&category=3772 


They will smoke any B&W speaker in the same price range. B&W is a high-end company and they simply don't put a lot of care or engineering into their lower lines. IMO they are just using their brand name equity to sell their lower lines. With a company like NHT, who specialize in affordable speakers, you are getting their best speaker. The NHTs have a lot of solid engineering behind them, and it shows in the sound.


Order up a pair of the NHT C3's and go listen to everything locally and simply return the C3s if you don't like them (return shipping is covered). I think they hit well above their weight class.


----------



## WestCoastD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20934841
> 
> 
> Had some free time this weekend and decided to take some proper pics of my current speaker system. I've added the pics below to the first post in this thread.
> 
> *Wilson Benesch Trinity, Centre and ARCs + JL F112 Home Theater*



killer set-up! nice to see you're still havin some fun there in the old famous room (actually I thought you were long-gone by now, moved elsewhere. Then I thought: "maybe hifisponge ressurrected his marriage?". Cool. No? oh well......







)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20934841
> 
> 
> I need a change of scenery, as I've been in this house for 12 years now, but if I can't find a place that will let me have some fun with my system, I think a piece of my soul will wither up and die



yeah, I hope you land in the right spot.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20934841
> 
> 
> I really need to pull a rabbit out of hat when it comes to looking for a new place. I can't think of ANY apartment living situation that is going to give the freedom to enjoy my sound system like I can now. But I don't want to rent out a detached house that looks like a time-warp back to the 70's or 80's either, which is probably all I can afford on my own



yeah, I'm in a fairly hip place, it's an older (1940's) california bungalow (house) parsed-up into apartment units. I'm in the rear unit (actually the rear of an old house, with original wood floors). I have people in front of me and above me. We share common walls, literally. But it's a great funky place. I've been in here for 17 years (16 years too long). I play my system as I desire. These types of rentals are very sought after once vacant.


But I'm ready to move on in the next month, can't wait myself.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20964587
> 
> 
> I decided to make a trip to downtown Seattle just to get some exposure to some speakers I hadn't heard yet. I have to say that what I heard today gave me a new appreciation for my system. Nothing I listened to in the stores today compelled me to want to part with the WB + Denon.
> 
> 
> I should mention that the main demo room at the shop I went to (Speakerlab) is square, and the second I walked in



thanks for all the comments, very informative. Seems like a very cool shop- "SpeakerLab"?


I'm still listening to Monitor Audio GS-60's, mostly happy. But really wanting new GX300's, or possibly B&W 803Di's. Waiting to replace my current components with a new Marantz AV7005 processor, Oppo BDP-95 player, Sony SCD-XA5400ES player. May use current 42 " Pioneer Kuro display in another room and install projector (either Panasonic or Epson) in main room.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/21004904
> 
> 
> killer set-up! nice to see you're still havin some fun there in the old famous room (actually I thought you were long-gone by now, moved elsewhere. Then I thought: "maybe hifisponge ressurrected his marriage?". Cool. No? oh well......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )



Yep, still separated, but it was the right thing to do, so no worries. Well, not many worries anyway.



> Quote:
> yeah, I hope you land in the right spot. I'm in a fairly hip place, it's an older (1940's) california bungalow (house) parsed-up into apartment units. I'm in the rear unit (actually the rear of an old house, with original wood floors). I have people in front of me and above me. We share common walls, literally. But it's a great funky place. I've been in here for 17 years (16 years too long). I play my system as I desire. These types of rentals are very sought after once vacant. But I'm ready to move on in the next month, can't wait myself.



I need to find some place like that. Where either the neighbors are cool with me rockin' the house, or they can't hear it. Why do you want to move? Just want a change?



> Quote:
> I'm still listening to Monitor Audio GS-60's, mostly happy. But really wanting new GX300's, or possibly B&W 803Di's. Waiting to replace my current components with a new Marantz AV7005 processor, Oppo BDP-95 player, Sony SCD-XA5400ES player. May use current 42 " Pioneer Kuro display in another room and install projector (either Panasonic or Epson) in main room.



I get the impression, based on the posts in the MA thread that the GXs might be a bit unforgiving / edgy. Definitely get an audition first. As for the 803 Diamond. If you like the sound of the new Diamond line, I would still avoid that particular speaker model. I've listened to the 803 Diamond on a couple of different occasions in different, but well designed and treated dealer rooms, and both times the 803 had problems with the bass and lower midrange quality. The bass is not very well defined and the lower midrange is too prominent, giving female vocals a husky quality. I'd go for the 804 Diamond with a sub, or step up to the 802 Diamond.


Good luck!


----------



## mykyll2727

Tim_I've just finished reading this entire thread and I just wanted to thank you for posting it. I found it very informative and entertaining. Honest, thoughtful, insightful, and classy. I agree you would make a "bad" pro reviewer. Just too honest and forthright. As we know it's tough to trust pro reviews as they're just too "colored" and flowery. Your honest asessments are truly a breath of fresh air. I too am on a quest to simplify and get a great sound for as little cash outlay as possible as I've reached a point where the only ones I'm trying to impress with my system are me and my wife. I'm now impressed by how well I can get great sound for the least cost not the most. But I will admit that looks do matter to a point. Afterall my system is something I live with and I do want to enjoy looking at it. So I truly empathise with your journey.



Again my thanks to you and all who have contributed to it for such a great thread.


Michael


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mykyll2727* /forum/post/21174042
> 
> 
> Tim_I've just finished reading this entire thread and I just wanted to thank you for posting it. I found it very informative and entertaining. Honest, thoughtful, insightful, and classy. I agree you would make a "bad" pro reviewer. Just too honest and forthright. As we know it's tough to trust pro reviews as they're just too "colored" and flowery. Your honest asessments are truly a breath of fresh air. I too am on a quest to simplify and get a great sound for as little cash outlay as possible as I've reached a point where the only ones I'm trying to impress with my system are me and my wife. I'm now impressed by how well I can get great sound for the least cost not the most. But I will admit that looks do matter to a point. Afterall my system is something I live with and I do want to enjoy looking at it. So I truly empathise with your journey.
> 
> 
> 
> Again my thanks to you and all who have contributed to it for such a great thread.
> 
> 
> Michael



Hi Michael -


Thanks for the kind words.


If you are looking for great sound on the cheap, some of the brands that have impressed me the most are NHT, Paradigm, and Energy.


With that said, I think I can comfortably say that my quest has ended. I've experienced everything from the highest of high end to the modest offerings of value minded companies, and a lot that falls somewhere in between. If you aren't looking for hand-made show pieces, and if you don't let this hobby become an obsession like I did, I believe you can get a very enjoyable system without breaking the bank.


I'll keep the WBs for a while, because they sound very good, they look even better, and I would lose a lot of money if I were to sell them off. But if/when they go, I very much doubt that I will replace them with something more expensive. It just isn't important to me at this point in my life. The funny thing is, that I listen to more music now than I ever have, yet I get just as much enjoyment from my relatively inexpensive car stereo as I do my mega-dollar home system.


----------



## drewTT

New setup looks killer. Are the Trinity's a step up from the Discovery? They look incredible.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *drewTT* /forum/post/21191567
> 
> 
> New setup looks killer. Are the Trinity's a step up from the Discovery? They look incredible.



Thanks much! I prefer the sound of the Disco over the Trinity when both are used without a subwooofer. The Disco has more extended bass on its own. When the Trinity is mated to a sub though, this is a not an issue. The Trinity purchase was a blind buy, based on a calculated risk (having owned WBs before). If I had to do it again, I would have just stuck with the Discos.


----------



## mykyll2727

Tim-


Thanks for the recommendations. I've pretty much decided on the new fronts. Swans F2.2Fs. Pretty much exactly what I'm looking for in a speaker and I can get an awesome price on some new ones. I'm in the process of building a music server to eliminate all of the seperate digital front end components I have. I'll look to sell them off. I'm a digital guy. I have nothing against vinyl it's just not my cup of tea now. My first highend system back in the late "70s was based on vinyl and tape. Ironically I have some nice cassette decks now. I say ironically because I never use them. They just sit in one of the main system racks collecting dust. Something else to get rid of. My power amps are settled. I have Verastarr SSA-644s. I can use one to tri-amp the Swans. What I'm trying to work out is pre/pro. I just don't want to spend alot of $ on processing that becomes obsolete so fast which causes me to look at it as disposable gear. I haven't decided on whether to get a very inexpensive processor/receiver and place a really good preamp between it and the amps or just get a good pre/pro. Ideas would be greatly appreciated.



I never heard your BWs but I would love to. They sure do look great.



Michael


----------



## roadster-s

I really like the look of those speakers Tim. They certainly have an exquisite finish and I'm sure they must image very well.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roadster-s* /forum/post/21216749
> 
> 
> I really like the look of those speakers Tim. They certainly have an exquisite finish and I'm sure they must image very well.



WB makes great looking and sounding speakers. Hope you get a chance to hear them some time. They aren't showy in their sound, but you are looking for a very natural sounding speaker with an expansive soundstage, they are worth a listen.


----------



## rustolemite




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20934841
> 
> 
> Had some free time this weekend and decided to take some proper pics of my current speaker system. I've added the pics below to the first post in this thread.
> 
> *Wilson Benesch Trinity, Centre and ARCs + JL F112 Home Theater*



You can keep all the HT stuff just give me the PUG !!!


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rustolemite* /forum/post/21220913
> 
> 
> You can keep all the HT stuff just give me the PUG !!!



LOL. That's Roxy. She makes into many of my new speaker photo shoots. I think she wonders what the hell I'm doing.


----------



## CorboDuze

Rear speakers WB Arc sold....Again??!!


----------



## WestCoastD

Hey Tim:


Hope everythings good. I'm now moved into a new place (went from an apartment situation to a house), literally right around the corner. Still living around boxes for a while now, disconnected from the world somewhat not having PC set-up.


Anyway my new "media/theater" room is smaller than my previous space (11.1ft X 11.4ft). Providing quite a set-up challenge attempting to properly configure all my gear into position. My soundstage will be more narrow (approx 6ft). My Monitor Audio GS-60 fronts really look like "towers" now. And I definitely feel more confined, but it is cosy.


However I'm trying to decide whether to locate my Energy RC-R rear-surrounds on the rear wall directly behind my head (maybe only 1ft behind, and 5ft to 6ft high, maybe 7ft apart). I was thinking if I go this route that maybe I could use some sort of swiveling bracket to pivot rears at more optimal angle inward towards listening position. I noticed you were using something like this for your rears? What type/brand mounting product did you use?


Otherwise I would be left mounting rears on side walls like 8ft high (due to window and door constraints). Not sure which configuration would be better?


Appreciate your input................


----------



## ddgtr

Merry Christmas, Tim!


----------



## galvs

....and Merry Xmas Mr Tim!


I read the entire thread, and all I can say is "WOW"!

Great information, hi-level behavior.


Best regards,

Eduardo


----------



## Djoel

Happy New Year Tim.


Dan


----------



## CorboDuze

Selling the Trinity now... In the end, I guess this is truly The "Ever-Changing" system.


----------



## R Harkness

Sorry, this is responding to an old post, but...


I believe I've already posted earlier in your thread. Such a fun read, especially for myself - I've always referred to myself as a "speaker-whore" because I just love speakers, and have moved through all types, like you have. (Until recently I even had something like 4 or 5 different sets of high end speakers in my home, but had to sell them off to pay for some home theater stuff, and to help domestic tranquility).

*ETA: Ugh, yeah, I posted before, so there is a bit of repeat in this post...sorry...*



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/20971047
> 
> 
> Considering the "entry level" MBL floorstander is $29K, and the standmount is $16K, even at 40% off, you are still looking at shelling out some serious coin.



That's one reason to keep a keen eye on places like Audiogon.


I always lusted after the MBLs (been in the high-end audio game for decades). Finally found a good deal on the stand mounted 121's...very slightly damaged, such that you'd never notice unless pointed out directly, but otherwise look pristine. Price was unbeatable.


See pictures of them in my set up here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post18848565 


They sound astounding!


hifisponge: Since you are a fellow speaker fanatic, perhaps you'll appreciate a couple of speaker-fanatic tales:


I once had a lead on a pair of MBL 101Ds - their most well-known omnis with the huge "water-melon-from-Mars" midranges - that were going to be put up for sale on Audiogon, years ago. They retailed for something like $50,000 at the time, but this was a pristine pair that was going for a starting bid of about $10,000. Since I'd always dreamed of owning them, my wife "ok'd" me making a bid. I knew there weren't going to be many taking a chance on such a speaker. So when the bidding began, it seemed clear from the way it was advancing I was bidding against few others, probably only one other guy. We were one upping each other, incrementally, as the clock ticked down. I'd read about how to win bidding wars, so it was down to the last 15 seconds. I was going to put my last BIG LEAP bid in at the very last moment. When it came to the last moments, I sent in my BIG BID and...software glitch! Bid didn't go in! The other guy got the speakers.


It was incredibly disheartening. So disheartening in fact that I was curious who it was that won the speakers from me. Turned out it was another audiogon member so I contacted him to ask how he was liking the MBLs.


Turned out this was a sort of "Guy with more money than sense" scenario.

Basically, he said he mostly "liked the way they looked" and he just set them up IN HIS GYM FOR BACKGROUND MUSIC!


A $50,000 high end speaker, set up in a horrendous work out room...for background music.


And thus in life we learn, truly there is no justice.

















Another: I became interested in some very high end monitors made by a local speaker manufacturer. The (very eccentric) high end dealer who would sell them to me said he could bring a pair over to my house for me to try.

That was cool - I'm very, very fussy about speakers and an in-home demo is optimal when it can occur.


Well, that night he brought over the speakers...AND the speaker designer/manufacturer! It was nice to talk tech with the designer but when it came to auditioning the speakers for my own use, this became pretty awkward.


In fact, at the time, I had a small listening sofa facing the speakers area. And in between the speakers was a stuffed chair at the time. We set the speakers up and there wasn't room on the sofa for the speaker designer, so he took a seat in the chair BETWEEN the speakers.


So, here I was trying to relax and get a feel for whether I liked the sound from this product, and hence whether I'd commit to buy the speakers, and as I'm listening, and trying to also get a sense of the imaging, the speaker designer is sitting in between the speakers, staring right back at me. I'm trying to concentrate on the sound, and all I see is this guy's face staring right at me, reading my reactions.


Not comfortable.


Even worse, it turned out I had some subtle qualms with the sound - not huge, but enough to turn me off the idea of buying them. And now I had to express this not only to the dealer, but to the guy who designed them...I had to explain why I didn't want to buy a pair of his "babies."


Worst. Speaker. Audition. Ever.


Actually, there was a worse speaker audition. Previous to this one, I'd heard the big floor standing version of these speakers at this eccentric audiophile dealer's place. He had a store-front, but used these big speakers in his own apartment portion of the store. In order to hear them, I had to come over late one night to his place. It was summer, and a VERY hot night.

However, he refused to put on any air conditioning while I was there, lest I miss the last minutia of inner detail on his system (triple-amplified, btw, by a phalanx of big, heat blasting tube amps). It wasn't long until I was sweating so much I was literally about to pass out, and since he still wouldn't put on the air-con, I had to excuse myself or succumb to heat exhaustion. I think that should have cued me how any further speaker auditions might go with that outfit.


Anyway...just thought I'd share. Anyone who has been into high-end audio for a long time, given all the eccentricities involved and wacky characters, is likely to have tales about odd situations.


Cheers,


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WestCoastD* /forum/post/21369400
> 
> 
> Hey Tim:
> 
> 
> Hope everythings good. I'm now moved into a new place (went from an apartment situation to a house), literally right around the corner. Still living around boxes for a while now, disconnected from the world somewhat not having PC set-up.
> 
> 
> Anyway my new "media/theater" room is smaller than my previous space (11.1ft X 11.4ft). Providing quite a set-up challenge attempting to properly configure all my gear into position. My soundstage will be more narrow (approx 6ft). My Monitor Audio GS-60 fronts really look like "towers" now. And I definitely feel more confined, but it is cosy.
> 
> 
> However I'm trying to decide whether to locate my Energy RC-R rear-surrounds on the rear wall directly behind my head (maybe only 1ft behind, and 5ft to 6ft high, maybe 7ft apart). I was thinking if I go this route that maybe I could use some sort of swiveling bracket to pivot rears at more optimal angle inward towards listening position. I noticed you were using something like this for your rears? What type/brand mounting product did you use?
> 
> 
> Otherwise I would be left mounting rears on side walls like 8ft high (due to window and door constraints). Not sure which configuration would be better?
> 
> 
> Appreciate your input................



Hey WCD -


Sorry for not responding to your question about wall mounts for speakers in my thread. I've pretty much ended my obsession with audio. I still love listening to music, but the gear side of things is much less of a hobby for me now that I'm single.


Anyway, the wall mounts that I like the most are made by Axiom Audio. These guys: http://www.axiomaudio.com/fullmetalbracket.html 


All the best,


- Tim


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CorboDuze* /forum/post/21494546
> 
> 
> Selling the Trinity now... In the end, I guess this is truly The "Ever-Changing" system.



Lol. While it may seem that I'm up to my usual rotation of gear, I'm actually pulling my hat out the high-end audiophile ring. I'll be replacing the Trinity monitors (MSRP $11,450) with a set of B&W CM5's ($1500). I still enjoy music quite a bit, I'm just don't need statement level gear anymore. It's funny how being single again can have a big impact on your priorities in life.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *R Harkness* /forum/post/21496748
> 
> 
> Sorry, this is responding to an old post, but...
> 
> 
> I believe I've already posted earlier in your thread. Such a fun read, especially for myself - I've always referred to myself as a "speaker-whore" because I just love speakers, and have moved through all types, like you have. (Until recently I even had something like 4 or 5 different sets of high end speakers in my home, but had to sell them off to pay for some home theater stuff, and to help domestic tranquility).
> 
> *ETA: Ugh, yeah, I posted before, so there is a bit of repeat in this post...sorry...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's one reason to keep a keen eye on places like Audiogon.
> 
> 
> I always lusted after the MBLs (been in the high-end audio game for decades). Finally found a good deal on the stand mounted 121's...very slightly damaged, such that you'd never notice unless pointed out directly, but otherwise look pristine. Price was unbeatable.
> 
> 
> See pictures of them in my set up here:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post18848565
> 
> 
> They sound astounding!
> 
> 
> hifisponge: Since you are a fellow speaker fanatic, perhaps you'll appreciate a couple of speaker-fanatic tales:
> 
> 
> I once had a lead on a pair of MBL 101Ds - their most well-known omnis with the huge "water-melon-from-Mars" midranges - that were going to be put up for sale on Audiogon, years ago. They retailed for something like $50,000 at the time, but this was a pristine pair that was going for a starting bid of about $10,000. Since I'd always dreamed of owning them, my wife "ok'd" me making a bid. I knew there weren't going to be many taking a chance on such a speaker. So when the bidding began, it seemed clear from the way it was advancing I was bidding against few others, probably only one other guy. We were one upping each other, incrementally, as the clock ticked down. I'd read about how to win bidding wars, so it was down to the last 15 seconds. I was going to put my last BIG LEAP bid in at the very last moment. When it came to the last moments, I sent in my BIG BID and...software glitch! Bid didn't go in! The other guy got the speakers.
> 
> 
> It was incredibly disheartening. So disheartening in fact that I was curious who it was that won the speakers from me. Turned out it was another audiogon member so I contacted him to ask how he was liking the MBLs.
> 
> 
> Turned out this was a sort of "Guy with more money than sense" scenario.
> 
> Basically, he said he mostly "liked the way they looked" and he just set them up IN HIS GYM FOR BACKGROUND MUSIC!
> 
> 
> A $50,000 high end speaker, set up in a horrendous work out room...for background music.
> 
> 
> And thus in life we learn, truly there is no justice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another: I became interested in some very high end monitors made by a local speaker manufacturer. The (very eccentric) high end dealer who would sell them to me said he could bring a pair over to my house for me to try.
> 
> That was cool - I'm very, very fussy about speakers and an in-home demo is optimal when it can occur.
> 
> 
> Well, that night he brought over the speakers...AND the speaker designer/manufacturer! It was nice to talk tech with the designer but when it came to auditioning the speakers for my own use, this became pretty awkward.
> 
> 
> In fact, at the time, I had a small listening sofa facing the speakers area. And in between the speakers was a stuffed chair at the time. We set the speakers up and there wasn't room on the sofa for the speaker designer, so he took a seat in the chair BETWEEN the speakers.
> 
> 
> So, here I was trying to relax and get a feel for whether I liked the sound from this product, and hence whether I'd commit to buy the speakers, and as I'm listening, and trying to also get a sense of the imaging, the speaker designer is sitting in between the speakers, staring right back at me. I'm trying to concentrate on the sound, and all I see is this guy's face staring right at me, reading my reactions.
> 
> 
> Not comfortable.
> 
> 
> Even worse, it turned out I had some subtle qualms with the sound - not huge, but enough to turn me off the idea of buying them. And now I had to express this not only to the dealer, but to the guy who designed them...I had to explain why I didn't want to buy a pair of his "babies."
> 
> 
> Worst. Speaker. Audition. Ever.
> 
> 
> Actually, there was a worse speaker audition. Previous to this one, I'd heard the big floor standing version of these speakers at this eccentric audiophile dealer's place. He had a store-front, but used these big speakers in his own apartment portion of the store. In order to hear them, I had to come over late one night to his place. It was summer, and a VERY hot night.
> 
> However, he refused to put on any air conditioning while I was there, lest I miss the last minutia of inner detail on his system (triple-amplified, btw, by a phalanx of big, heat blasting tube amps). It wasn't long until I was sweating so much I was literally about to pass out, and since he still wouldn't put on the air-con, I had to excuse myself or succumb to heat exhaustion. I think that should have cued me how any further speaker auditions might go with that outfit.
> 
> 
> Anyway...just thought I'd share. Anyone who has been into high-end audio for a long time, given all the eccentricities involved and wacky characters, is likely to have tales about odd situations.
> 
> 
> Cheers,



Rich,


I don't know if you'll get this, since I'm inexcusably late to the party, but those stories are priceless. The first a tragic tale of the big fish that got away, the second two are a great example of how socially challenged and obsessive some audiophiles can be. I can't imagine how awkward it must have felt to have the speaker design peering back at you during the entire audition. Clueless.


----------



## javry




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *R Harkness* /forum/post/21496748
> 
> 
> Sorry, this is responding to an old post, but...
> 
> 
> I believe I've already posted earlier in your thread. Such a fun read, especially for myself - I've always referred to myself as a "speaker-whore" because I just love speakers, and have moved through all types, like you have. (Until recently I even had something like 4 or 5 different sets of high end speakers in my home, but had to sell them off to pay for some home theater stuff, and to help domestic tranquility).
> 
> 
> ....................................
> 
> Anyway...just thought I'd share. Anyone who has been into high-end audio for a long time, given all the eccentricities involved and wacky characters, is likely to have tales about odd situations.
> 
> 
> Cheers,



Great stories Rich. As you mentioned, all of us audiophiles have them. Yours in particular though got me laughing.


----------



## mykyll2727




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/21573254
> 
> 
> Lol. While it may seem that I'm up to my usual rotation of gear, I'm actually pulling my hat out the high-end audiophile ring. I'll be replacing the Trinity monitors (MSRP $11,450) with a set of B&W CM5's ($1500). I still enjoy music quite a bit, I'm just don't need statement level gear anymore. It's funny how being single again can have a big impact on your priorities in life.





Tim_I do understand how priorities can change as our lives change. I've enjoyed this thread immensely and I wanted to thank you for taking us along on your ride. I learned alot.


Michael


----------



## mykyll2727




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *javry* /forum/post/21575263
> 
> 
> great stories rich. As you mentioned, all of us audiophiles have them. Yours in particular though got me laughing.





+1


----------



## mhrischuk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/21573363
> 
> 
> Rich,
> 
> 
> I don't know if you'll get this, since I'm inexcusably late to the party, but those stories are priceless. The first a tragic tale of the big fish that got away, the second two are a great example of how socially challenged and obsessive some audiophiles can be. I can't imagine how awkward it must have felt to have the speaker design peering back at you during the entire audition. Clueless.



I can't fathom a high end speaker designer ruining your audition by doing that. He must not be that good after all if he didn't understand what he was doing.


----------



## hifisponge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mykyll2727* /forum/post/21633103
> 
> 
> Tim_I do understand how priorities can change as our lives change. I've enjoyed this thread immensely and I wanted to thank you for taking us along on your ride. I learned alot.
> 
> 
> Michael



My pleasure Michael. It was an exciting, often frustrating, but ultimately enlightening experience going through all of the gear that I did.

http://boingboing.net/2012/02/10/ala...diophiles.html


----------



## mykyll2727




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/21635247
> 
> 
> My pleasure Michael. It was an exciting, often frustrating, but ultimately enlightening experience going through all of the gear that I did.
> 
> http://boingboing.net/2012/02/10/ala...diophiles.html




Great link! You can bet I'll definitely keep it in mind. Thanks!!!!


----------



## yuppi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tigerstripe* /forum/post/20313712
> 
> 
> We auditioned the Mordaunt-Short speakers a while back, and we were still hifi newbies by the time being.
> 
> 
> My wife also read some of your posts and she said "spongebob enlightened us a lot, and it's time for us to return him some favors" (she liked to call you spongebob ). That's why yesterday afternoon I and my wife spent more than 3 hours to thoughtfully audition the Mordaunt Short Performance 6 speakers again in the best showroom suggested by the distributor. No we were not wasting seller's time, we still haven't decided on the two stereo amps for the C1s and the GT1s, and it was a good chance to audition the more expensive amps at the dealer.
> 
> 
> We auditioned exclusively the Performance 6 speakers this time, while last time we auditioned both Performance 2 and 6 speakers. Acoustically the showroom was quite good, with the ceiling, front wall and left side wall acoustically dead. Open CD and product cabinets were against the right side wall and the rear wall. Some base traps were present at some corners.
> 
> 
> The Performance 6s were driven by the Luxman L-509u int amp, which according to the dealer is very neutral sounding. The dealer also had the Gryphon Diablo, but we auditioned this int amp a few times with the Dynaudio C1 and Gryphon Mojo speakers, and we found it a bit warm and thick for our taste. The dealer also recommended partnering the Performance 6's with the more neutral sounding Luxman amp which had been warmed up for over an hour before we came.
> 
> 
> Tonally the Performance 6s were similar to the MA, Canton, and Elac, and remotely similar to the Acoustic Energy speakers. They were much warmer than the GS60's, a bit warmer than the Elac FS 247s, but I would still classify the Performance 6s bright speakers, as they were not as neutral as the Acoustic Energy AE1 MkIII SE ones. The brightness was very subtle and didn't bother us during the audition, and I think you can get rid most of the brightness if you play around with the source.
> 
> 
> Overall the speakers were well balanced, and I will recommend them to those who listen to all sorts of music and spend a good deal of time on movie and gaming. They passed all my CD tests, most tracks were good, some were great. The dealer also demoed his collection of CDs, all were good to great. However, there was no single moment that the speaker blew me away, while the GS60s, PL200s, PSB Synchrony One's, Dynaudio Confidence C1s, Atohm GT1 and GT2 speakers did give me such a feeling, particularly the C1s and the GTs. There was just no "wow" factor in them. They are fast, transparent and detailed, but the GS60s were much more transparent and detailed. Soundstage was open and wide, imaging quite precise, but the scale was much smaller than the C1s and AE1 MkIII SEs, and a bit smaller than the GS60s. They were dynamic, much more than the Sonus Faber Cremona Ms, but the PL200s, C1s and GTs were even more so. Musically, they were smoother and more refined compared to the Proac Response D series which sounded a bit coarse and rough, but they were less musical than the Proac speakers and rougher and coarser than the C1's, AE1 MkIII SEs and GT's. The bass was tight, warm and controlled, but not as well controlled as the PSB Synchrony One's. Also many other rival floorstanders and bookshelf speakers like the C1s and GTs could dig much deeper, but the bass was comparable to the AE1 MkIII SEs. The low treble and high midrange sounded a bit thin like the PSB Synchrony One's did (but perhaps the thin sound came from the NAD int amp instead of the PSB) and occasionally got our attention, but it didn't bother us as a whole.
> 
> 
> The bottom line is, if I were to stay listening to Performance 6s for the whole day with all sort of music, or I were watching movies and playing video games with the Performance 6 5.1 AV system, I would like to. Listening to the GS60s for the whole day? No thanks. The Performance 6s are very well balanced and good in all aspects with almost no weakness, but nothing really stand out from the best rivals. However if I was to choose between the Sonus Faber Cremona Ms and the Performance 6s, this is a no brainer - the latter would definitely be the choice. They lack a wow factor, but overall they are better than the Cremona Ms which are also quite balanced in all aspects but lack the authority of the Performance 6s. I would say the Performance 6s are like a lion - among the big cats, a lion is fast but isn't the fastest (leopards and cheetahs are faster), it's strong yet isn't the strongest (jaguars and tigers are stronger. No internet vs debate needed, everyone please refer to the paper published in Nature - pound for pound a Bengal tiger is 30% stronger than an African lion, that's why nearly all staged fights used smaller tigresses against bigger male lions. And pound for pound jaguars are even stronger than tigers), it isn't the most agile (leopards and tigers are more agile), it isn't the smartest (tigers have bigger and more developed brains) and it isn't the largest either (Siberian and Northern Bengal tigers are larger). But, a lion certainly deserves all the praises as a well balanced and efficient fighter and killer.
> 
> 
> I would like to point out that Mordaunt-Short Performance and the Dynaudio Confidence speakers do have one thing in common - partner them with better equipment will proportionally give you better sound. To illustrate this statement, at the end of the audition the dealer swapped the Luxman L-509u with Luxman L-507u (which had been warmed up for 25 minutes) - I would say the speakers suffered from about 40% of performance drop!
> 
> 
> One important note you must know - I didn't consider Mordaunt-Short Performance speakers because months ago the MS Performance 5.1 AV package (2 floorstanders, 2 standmounts, 1 center and 1 sub) cost me about USD18,000 and we had better options at this price range. However, perhaps because the way I approached the distributor and the dealer yesterday (they probably thought we were some famed audiophiles), they gave me a special discount - they asked for USD8,000, some 80% discount, for the whole 5.1 Performance package (latest limited midnight black edition, 100% brand new and sealed, A-stock). This authorized dealer is listed on the Mordaunt-Short website and is very reputable locally. If you are really interested in this package, perhaps visiting Hong Kong will be your Easter holiday activity as you can save USD10,000 (in the US I think the package also retails for USD18,000). The air tickets, hotel expense and freight cost etc shouldn't cost you anything near USD10,000. It's a real bargain. They gave us 2 weeks to consider this special offer. Tempted?



I am Live in Hong Kong, the cash selling price for the Performance 6 is USD$5140 and the Performance 2 is USD$3830.


I really want to know where can I buy a 5.1 package at USD$8,000


----------



## pokekevin

That is a great system you have there! Great write ups too! At first I thought the top one was the the oldest lol. Was shocked when I thought you went to a RPTV from your current one! (nothing wrong with RPTVs







)


----------



## prepress




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge* /forum/post/19850847
> 
> 
> I can appreciate your interest in keeping everything matching. I'm not much for the eclectic system look either.
> 
> 
> So here are some numbers and info that should help ya:
> 
> 
> Assuming that the MM7055 amp uses a shared power supply, you are going to get higher wattage output when running in 2CH than multi channel, which is a good thing since your interest is in having the most power when running the Studio 100s full range. I'm sure that Marantz can hit their 140 watt spec in stereo. Based on the Studio 100's sensitivity and the distance you sit from them, *in stereo you can hit 96 dB with 106 dB peaks at your listening seat with 140 watts*. That's pretty damn loud.
> 
> 
> With five channels driven, I suspect that the MM7055 will put out roughly 80 watts (because it uses a common power supply that must now feed 5 channels not just 2). *With five speakers all rated at 90dB sensitivity, you can hit 107dB peaks with 80 watts.* It takes less power to hit these levels because each time you add a speaker to the system it takes less power to each of them to hit the same dB level. However, this is based on equal power being sent to all channels, which rarely happens. Often times more power is needed in the front three channels than the rears during dynamic movie passages. But the advantage of the common power supply is that when less power is needed for the rears, there is more power available for the fronts. For instance if the rears only need 40 watts at a given moment, the available power to the front speakers should be around 100 watts. 100 watts is enough power for most people most of the time.
> 
> 
> If you want to be conservative though, and ensure that you front speakers always have the full available power, buy the MM7025 stereo amp for the front pair and the MM7055 for the center and surrounds.



I'm looking at the 7025 to use in a secondary stereo setup in my bedroom. Any thoughts on it? Input would be appreciated (though I've almost made up my mind to get it).


----------



## drewTT

Hey Tim, anything new going on?


----------



## prepress

I went back to the first page. Those are some nice, clean photos of well set up systems. Congratulations. And, Happy Thanksgiving.


----------



## thrang




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hifisponge*  /t/1139308/the-ever-changing-ht/330#post_18574853
> 
> 
> Well, the paint finally cured on my wall brackets and I was very excited to finally mount the rear speakers, but ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...the brackets are not sturdy enough to hold the somewhat largish 805Dis. I got one of the speakers up and the bracket was flexing under the load. Damn!
> 
> 
> 
> But what's worse is that I underestimated just how big the 805Dis look when mounted on the wall. They look friggin' huge! With the depth of the speaker combined with the depth of the mount, they stick out 21" from the wall. That's almost 2 feet!
> 
> 
> 
> My wife is pretty forgiving when it comes to my infatuation with this hobby, but when she saw the 805Di looming off the back wall she kinda freaked. And I don't blame her, they look rather imposing back there.
> 
> 
> 
> These pics don't show the scale of the speaker in person, but the second one gives you a vague idea of how far the speaker sticks out from the wall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it's back to the drawing board as to what to do with the rear speakers. Do I order a stronger bracket and hope that my wife and I get used to the how big they look? Do I go with in-walls and give up on having matching speakers all around? What to do, what to do?



Hi Tim


Resurrecting an old post, but I'm looking at mounting 805s as front heights (they will be well out of the way and not protrude)


Did you ever get the stability of the custom mounts figured out, or did you abandon before selling.


Whose mount did you use as the basis for the customization?


Thanks


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## prepress

I heard those B&Ws driven by McIntosh gear over the holidays. Excellent sound. Have you resolved your bracket dilemma?


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## danab

Hifisponge have you ever auditioned or considered the Polk Audio LSiM 703's? Probably not up to par with most of the speakers that have gone through your doors, But they sound like they would be a pretty solid candidate for what you are after. I know you probably don't even want to consider changing anything as it might lead you down the upgrade/change path again, but its just a thought?


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## MauZ aka Chico

Nice set up!!All of them..
And very nice transistions butta I got a word for this...


INDECISIVE..!!



I mean that in a good way.

But seriously,.. When are you done man?


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## danab

Hey Hifisponge!

I dont know if you have ever heard of Devialet before, but YOU SHOULD CHECK THEM OUT! They are doing some amazing stuff with their amplifiers/preamps and SAM processing. they are having a vote for SAM campaign on right now you could vote for your WB Trinity's and hopefully in the near future they will have SAM processing for them. You can find all there information and what the heck i am even talking about on their website just google Devialet.

I hope this helps you in your quest to an amazing sounding system!


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## kenoh89

I know this thread is old but how does the Paradigm Sigs sound compared to the Revell? Are they as detailed? Strength VS weaknesses? Which speaker worked best for live rock music? 


Impressive collection of speakers BTW!!!


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## w1000i

I'd like to comment about MA PL300. MonitorAudio came later with PL200 which outperform the 300 and that have been said by MA. However there are new Gold model and I hope to see it in your room


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## AVSFU01

Hey Sponge,


I know the thread has been inactive for a while and you might not read this, but was still curious on the status-quo and how it is going. I sent you a PM.


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