# How to create 3D frame sequential video?



## TrickMcKaha

Those of you with Optoma HD66 or similar DLP Link projectors - Have you created your own 3D videos using twin camcorders? I'd like instruction on that final step: How to create or render a 120 Hz field sequential video from two separate 60 Hz (or 30 Hz even) camcorder sources.


I hoped Sony Vegas would do it, but I don't see that choice in it's menus. I've read Frank's cool thread on making home 3D video in side-by-side format, but DLP Link wants field sequential. So, anyone know how to render 120 Hz field sequential video?


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## TrickMcKaha

So must I render it in a side-by-side format, say totaling 2560 x 720, and use Nvidia 3D vision to separate it into field sequential on the fly?


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## peter0328




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TrickMcKaha* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So must I render it in a side-by-side format, say totaling 2560 x 720, and use Nvidia 3D vision to separate it into field sequential on the fly?



Yes


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## TrickMcKaha

I've learned (and found) that Stereoscopic Player can also send 120 hz frame sequential video from side-by-side and the other 3D file formats using ATI graphics and a bleeding edge video driver.


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## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TrickMcKaha* /forum/post/19293141
> 
> 
> Those of you with Optoma HD66 or similar DLP Link projectors - Have you created your own 3D videos using twin camcorders? I'd like instruction on that final step: How to create or render a 120 Hz field sequential video from two separate 60 Hz (or 30 Hz even) camcorder sources.
> 
> 
> I hoped Sony Vegas would do it, but I don't see that choice in it's menus. I've read Frank's cool thread on making home 3D video in side-by-side format, but DLP Link wants field sequential. So, anyone know how to render 120 Hz field sequential video?



I've never heard of frame sequential video.

It would be very hard to encode such since the mpeg encoder would detect extreme amount of motion between consecutive frames. May be it could work as uncompressed stream. Also to play it would require supercomputer.

Finally you would also need a camera that captures images with 60 Hz progressive mode and for HD quality

I do not think that there is one for less than 10k.


May be you are confusing flicker-less shutter switching speed with video frame rate.

120 Hz usually reefers to quad buffer output speed.

The video input rate for quad buffer is usually 3 times less

or 30Hz for stereoscopic pair.


DLP-Link has two versions now:

One, older without quad buffer using VGA D-sub input

and new one with quad buffer inside the projector using HDMI 1.4a.

In both cases the video frame rate should be 30Hz in

SbS, OaU or dual stream. There is no frame sequential video format because it would be very hard to determine which is left and which is right eye frame.


Hope this helps.


Mathew Orman


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## Augerhandle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/19314743
> 
> 
> I've never heard of frame sequential video...
> 
> 
> Mathew Orman



Really?

http://www.best-3dtvs.com/what-is-frame-sequential-3d/ 


or

http://www.tru3d.com/technology/3D_M...e%20Sequential 


or [insert 3D website here]


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## walford




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/19314743
> 
> 
> I've never heard of frame sequential video.
> 
> It would be very hard to encode such since the mpeg encoder would detect extreme amount of motion between consecutive frames. May be it could work as uncompressed stream. Also to play it would require supercomputer.
> 
> Finally you would also need a camera that captures images with 60 Hz progressive mode and for HD quality
> 
> I do not think that there is one for less than 10k.
> 
> 
> May be you are confusing flicker-less shutter switching speed with video frame rate.
> 
> 120 Hz usually reefers to quad buffer output speed.
> 
> The video input rate for quad buffer is usually 3 times less
> 
> or 30Hz for stereoscopic pair.
> 
> 
> DLP-Link has two versions now:
> 
> One, older without quad buffer using VGA D-sub input
> 
> and new one with quad buffer inside the projector using HDMI 1.4a.
> 
> In both cases the video frame rate should be 30Hz in
> 
> SbS, OaU or dual stream. There is no frame sequential video format because it would be very hard to determine which is left and which is right eye frame.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> 
> Mathew Orman



The Nvidia 3D game player has been usinng 720p frame sequential format since it was introduced. Frist a 720p frame for one eye is sent followed by the 720p frame for the other eye. And the Nvida 3D IR emitter has both a USB connector and a VESA connector so it can be connected to either the PC or to the TV.

See:

http://store.nvidia.com/store?Action...1286736067321#


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## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Augerhandle* /forum/post/19315571
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> http://www.best-3dtvs.com/what-is-frame-sequential-3d/
> 
> 
> or
> 
> http://www.tru3d.com/technology/3D_M...e%20Sequential
> 
> 
> or [insert 3D website here]



Those links do not contain a single 3d movie encoded as frame sequential.


Mathew Orman


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## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/19315627
> 
> 
> The Nvidia 3D game player has been usinng 720p frame sequential format since it was introduced. Frist a 720p frame for one eye is sent followed by the 720p frame for the other eye. And the Nvida 3D IR emitter has both a USB connector and a VESA connector so it can be connected to either the PC or to the TV.
> 
> See:
> 
> http://store.nvidia.com/store?Action...1286736067321#



Do you have a sample of such movie?

Just one second long sample would be great.


Mathew Orman


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## peter0328

The only video I've ever seen that was in frame-sequential format is the Sony E3 game demo from PSN. The native 3D Vision video format is dual stream WMV.


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## walford

The followiing link from 2006 poinits out that with thr Nvidia 3D player that you can use either Page Flippinng( frame sequential) format or anaglyph 3D format. There is no reference at all to WMV format which is an encoding format and not a 3D presentation format.

http://download.cnet.com/nVidia-3D-S...-10163709.html


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## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *peter0328* /forum/post/19315803
> 
> 
> The only video I've ever seen that was in frame-sequential format is the Sony E3 game demo from PSN. The native 3D Vision video format is dual stream WMV.



Wow,

how did Sony make left frame go to left eye and vice verse?

Or may be it was field sequential?


Mathew Orman


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## peter0328




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/19315887
> 
> 
> The followiing link from 2006 poinits out that with thr Nvidia 3D player that you can use either Page Flippinng( frame sequential) format or anaglyph 3D format. There is no reference at all to WMV format which is an encoding format and not a 3D presentation format.
> 
> http://download.cnet.com/nVidia-3D-S...-10163709.html



Yes WMV dual stream is a video format. That is what we are discussing, not the output format.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/19315898
> 
> 
> Wow,
> 
> how did Sony make left frame go to left eye and vice verse?
> 
> Or may be it was field sequential?
> 
> 
> Mathew Orman



The PS3 recognizes it as a 3D format because of a special tag in the MP4 meta-data. It knows that the first frame is left eye and the second is right eye and so on.


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## walford

I am confused I though that the OP was trying to find a 3D video display format that he/she could send to her PJ and not a compresed 3D transmission format such as WMV that he/she could receive 3D progrming in for each eye and then have a program to convert that to a 3D video display format.


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## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/19316799
> 
> 
> I am confused I though that the OP was trying to find a 3D video display format that he/she could send to her PJ and not a compresed 3D transmission format such as WMV that he/she could receive 3D progrming in for each eye and then have a program to convert that to a 3D video display format.



You can only do that with real time scene and action creations such as games or Machinima script driven movies all using GPU power.

There are no movies in uncompressed format due to insufficient storage memory and or required transfer bandwidth.


Mathew Orman


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## walford

So


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/19315898
> 
> 
> Wow,
> 
> how did Sony make left frame go to left eye and vice verse?
> 
> Or may be it was field sequential?
> 
> 
> Mathew Orman



Frame sequential, field sequential and page flip all mean the same thing.:


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## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *peter0328* /forum/post/19316738
> 
> 
> Yes WMV dual stream is a video format. That is what we are discussing, not the output format.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The PS3 recognizes it as a 3D format because of a special tag in the MP4 meta-data. It knows that the first frame is left eye and the second is right eye and so on.



If this is true then who needs BluRay 3D player,

just buy PS3 and you get all the extras.

Do you have a sample of such mp4 video?

What is the frame rate?


Mathew Orman


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/19317272
> 
> 
> Frame sequential, field sequential and page flip all mean the same thing.:



Sorry,

I do not get it.

May be you meant that those are all time sequential methods

of presenting stereoscopic volume.

Frame sequential is full resolution stereo and field sequential is only half resolution so how can you say that

they are the same?

Also frame sequential requires frame indexing but field sequential is self index by even and odd fields.


Mathew Orman


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## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *peter0328* /forum/post/19316738
> 
> 
> Yes WMV dual stream is a video format. That is what we are discussing, not the output format.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The PS3 recognizes it as a 3D format because of a special tag in the MP4 meta-data. It knows that the first frame is left eye and the second is right eye and so on.



Just found out that there is no 120 Hz mode on PS3

and the HDMI 1.4 does not support frame sequential mode.



Here are the only modes supported by HDMI 1.4:


Value Meaning

-------------------------

0000 Frame packing

0001 Field alternative

0010 Line alternative

0011 Side-by-Side (Full)

0100 L + depth

0101 L + depth + graphics + graphics-depth

0110 ~ 0111 Reserved for future use.

1000 Side-by-Side (Half)

1001 ~ 1111 Reserved for future use.


So, PS3 must have a special version of stereoscopic player

that decodes mp4 frame sequential and formats the HDMI 1.4 output.


Does any one know of such PS3 capabilities?


Mathew Orman


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## walford

True, frame sequential is not a HDMI 1.4a 3D display format it is format for outputing 3D 720p video content developed years ago by Nvidia for 3D games to 3D capable displays. that can refresh at 120fps(60fps per eye) and which used Active Shutter Glases.

It is no a format for comnpressing video for transmisson or storage such as MPEG2 or H.264 for HD or MVC for 3D.


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## TrickMcKaha

OK, so all 3D video files are encoded at 30 fps. (in NTSC countries)


I have a HD Hero camcorder that can record 720p at 60 fps, though. They say it is for getting smooth slow motion, but I thought I could use a pair of them to generate smooth 3D. I still will, but I'll be recording at 1080p 30 fps instead and rendering files in top/bottom format for now.


Thanks for the help and discussion on this so far.


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## walford

1080i 3D HDMI 1.4a SbS video is 30 fps.

720p 3D HDMI 1.4a TnB video is 60 fps.

1080p 3D HDMI 1.4a dual frame packing video is 24 fps.


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## cybereality




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/19317272
> 
> 
> Frame sequential, field sequential and page flip all mean the same thing.:



Frame sequential and field sequential are two totally different things. Frame sequential is also known as page-flipping, meaning each view is shown in succession: L-R-L-R-L-R, etc. Field sequential is also known as horizontal line-interleaved, when both left and right views are encoded onto a single frame. With field sequential each alternating field (line) corresponds to a different eye.


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## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cybereality* /forum/post/19322342
> 
> 
> Frame sequential and field sequential are two totally different things. Frame sequential is also known as page-flipping, meaning each view is shown in succession: L-R-L-R-L-R, etc. Field sequential is also known as horizontal line-interleaved, when both left and right views are encoded onto a single frame. With field sequential each alternating field (line) corresponds to a different eye.



Sorry,

slight mistake.

Field sequential are encoded into two separate fields

(half resolution frames) and at playback they are displayed one after another shifted vertically by one line relative to each other.

Line sequential is when left and right eye images are

encoded on one even lines and the other on odd in single frame. The separations is done by passive glasses and micro strip polarizes with alternating polarity for odd and even lines. The separation can also be done by line blanking method which I have invented in 1985, British patent pending but never finalized.


Mathew Orman


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cybereality* /forum/post/19322342
> 
> 
> Frame sequential and field sequential are two totally different things. Frame sequential is also known as page-flipping, meaning each view is shown in succession: L-R-L-R-L-R, etc. Field sequential is also known as horizontal line-interleaved, when both left and right views are encoded onto a single frame. With field sequential each alternating field (line) corresponds to a different eye.



Nope - that is called Line-By-Line

http://www.jvc.eu/3d_monitor/technology/video.html


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## 8:13

I have some frame sequential test clips in this link: Link .


icester asked before so I reinstalled windows and updated my pc then dl'd the photoshop and built the test patterns and then made the frame sequential pattern frame by frame.


It took a few days but there you go. I imagined that maybe he would use it to test his 3D TV he made so I figured he should have it.


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## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *8:13* /forum/post/19326093
> 
> 
> I have some frame sequential test clips in this link: Link .
> 
> 
> icester asked before so I reinstalled windows and updated my pc then dl'd the photoshop and built the test patterns and then made the frame sequential pattern frame by frame.
> 
> 
> It took a few days but there you go. I imagined that maybe he would use it to test his 3D TV he made so I figured he should have it.



Well,

with zero parallax it is no different then regular 2d movie clip.

All 2D movies are frame sequential.

Nice joke


Mathew Orman


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## 8:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by *icester* 
Well,

with zero parallax it is no different then regular 2d movie clip.

All 2D movies are frame sequential.

Nice joke


Mathew Orman
I have made two new 1080p frame sequential patterns, this time it is not zero parallax, the right frame is 34 pixels more to the right than the left frame.


I don't have a 3D tv so I was unaware that zero parallax wouldn't work in 3D, I have nothing to test to see for myself. it was a honest mistake, I'm sorry. Anyway, here is some proper tests.


The frame sequential 1080p patterns are in the folder attached. I have made them today to correct the error I made before. I was not joking, it was a error.









 

Video.zip 266.4951171875k . file


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## 8:13




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *8:13* /forum/post/19326093
> 
> 
> I have some frame sequential test clips in this link: Link .



I made some new tests today, available in the link.


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## perfectdark

I am still coonfused. Is frame sequential and field sequential different?

I have the Optoma HD66 which is FRAME Sequential ... is there any movies in this format? I have dlp link glasses arriving shortly and would like to try them out before my 3D-XL is released. And no i do not want to use a PC, I want to use my existing WDTV Live


i googled but can't see any Frame Sequentiasl movies

I saw a bunch of Field Sequential like Friday the thirteenth and spy kids 3


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## mariner888




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TrickMcKaha* /forum/post/19293141
> 
> 
> Those of you with Optoma HD66 or similar DLP Link projectors - Have you created your own 3D videos using twin camcorders? I'd like instruction on that final step: How to create or render a 120 Hz field sequential video from two separate 60 Hz (or 30 Hz even) camcorder sources.
> 
> 
> I hoped Sony Vegas would do it, but I don't see that choice in it's menus. I've read Frank's cool thread on making home 3D video in side-by-side format, but DLP Link wants field sequential. So, anyone know how to render 120 Hz field sequential video?



Greetings TrickMcKaha.


This is a short 1920x1080/120p clip made from Panasonic 1920x1080/60p video. Does it play on your system?


Name: 700_2D3D_interleave.mkv

Size: 105.14MB

Description: 1920x1080/60p 2D to 3D Interleave
http://www.sendspace.com/file/pxhas6


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## BlackShark

Frame sequential is full resolution alternating left and right every frame.

Field sequential is interlaced half vertical resolution, one eye goes into the odd field and the other eye goes to the even field. Each frame contains both eye views since it contains both fields.

Line by line looks similar to field sequential, but the difference is that the frames are defined as a progressive picture. Since there are no fields in a progressive picture, the terms odd/even fields are replaced with odd/even lines.


One remark about storing a frame sequential video.

I also originally thought MPEG encoders would not like frame sequential video because of the huge jerkiness of such a video, however when x264 developers tested it, they found out that their H264 encoder actually liked it and performed better than using separate files.

With a few tweaks and with the right parameters, they managed to get compression performance very close to what MVC does.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...26#post1465726 


Stereoscopic player supports frame sequential 3D files, once these guys implement proper tagging and frame identification, frame sequential might become the best storage format available (until free standardized MVC codecs become widely available).


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## BigPines

Frame Sequential solves a lot of problems and I think it is definitely the way to go. Since the PS3 can handle them out of the box, I think it becomes a no-brainer for those with a PS3.


Even though I don't have a 3D display yet, I have played some Frame Sequential stuff on my PS3 and it plays back as normal 2D! This means 2D compatibility is built in which is also nice (try that with SBS). I have verified the Frame Sequential stuff I played has interpolated frames on my computer display.


Mike


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## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *perfectdark* /forum/post/19753883
> 
> 
> I am still coonfused. Is frame sequential and field sequential different?
> 
> I have the Optoma HD66 which is FRAME Sequential ... is there any movies in this format? I have dlp link glasses arriving shortly and would like to try them out before my 3D-XL is released. And no i do not want to use a PC, I want to use my existing WDTV Live
> 
> 
> i googled but can't see any Frame Sequentiasl movies
> 
> I saw a bunch of Field Sequential like Friday the thirteenth and spy kids 3



There is none.

Frame sequential is only used for transfer of left and right images from PC to 120 Hz display.


There are proprietary 60Hz frame sequential video formats

with embedded frame indexing.


Such format can be played using DLP and CRT display devices with 30 Hz per eye frame rate.

Some people do not tolerate any amount of flicker so it has limited audience.


If your WDTV Live can output 60p formats then you can use e-dimensional like dongle with LCS glasses with your DLP- Link projector. But you will not be able to use DLP-Link and glasses at all as it will only turn on if input signal is 120Hz.


Mathew Orman


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## walford

Frame sequential AFAIK means the same as page flipping. The HD66 will accept frame sequential/page flipping 720p content at 120Hz and AFAIK both Nvidia 3D play and Iz3D using a current generation ATI card can both provide that capability.


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## BigPines




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/19762748
> 
> 
> There is none.
> 
> Frame sequential is only used for transfer of left and right images from PC to 120 Hz display.
> 
> 
> There are proprietary 60Hz frame sequential video formats
> 
> with embedded frame indexing.



So you are saying 1080p24 can't be encoded and played back using this method? That doesn't make any sense to me.


Can't I encode two 23.976 FPS streams together to get one 47.952 stream and play that on my PS3? I'm sure gonna try.


Mike


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## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigPines* /forum/post/19763341
> 
> 
> So you are saying 1080p24 can't be encoded and played back using this method? That doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> 
> Can't I encode two 23.976 FPS streams together to get one 47.952 stream and play that on my PS3? I'm sure gonna try.
> 
> 
> Mike



No,

you can encode it but it will not be optimal for playback

or regular video hardware.


The main problem is synchronizing LCS glasses.

There is a proprietary method using either Blu-line sync or corner black/white rectangle and you need the proprietary hardware with glasses.


Mathew Orman


----------



## BlackShark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/19762955
> 
> 
> Frame sequential AFAIK means the same as page flipping.



The two are often used as synonyms but they actually refer to different things :

frame sequential is the actual output : the picture format that goes through the video cable

Pageflipping is the name of the algorithm that was used in the graphics cards when they output frame sequential, nowadays it's called the stereo-quadbuffer but the term pageflipping is still often used instead.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigPines* /forum/post/19763341
> 
> 
> So you are saying 1080p24 can't be encoded and played back using this method? That doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> 
> Can't I encode two 23.976 FPS streams together to get one 47.952 stream and play that on my PS3? I'm sure gonna try.
> 
> 
> Mike



You can encode frame sequential and is apparently quite efficient, but the problem is playback. Frame sequential alone is just a series of pictures, neither the software or the display can tell the difference between frame sequential stereo 24fps and a 2D 48fps video.

This is why you need additional systems to identify the left and right frames so that you get the correct eye view, you also need to identify picture pairs so that you can increase the refresh rate from 24fps footage to 96Hz,120Hz, 144Hz or more properly.


The PS3 frame sequential videos are not raw frame sequential, they use a proprietary marking system implemented by Sony for this purpose. I do not know any software that can produce it.


----------



## walford




BlackShark said:


> The two are often used as synonyms but they actually refer to different things :
> 
> frame sequential is the actual output : the picture format that goes through the video cable
> 
> Pageflipping is the name of the algorithm that was used in the graphics cards when they output frame sequential, nowadays it's called the stereo-quadbuffer but the term pageflipping is still often used instead.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Very interesting, no wonder many of us get confused, I had not idea Stereo Quadbuffer ment the same as Page Flipping. Too bad none of the groups such as the the US Consumer Electroics Association publish any documentation or terminology standards.


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## BlackShark

It's probably because the pageflipping, quad buffer and frame sequential stuff isn't supposed to be used by consumers. It's more a programmer and display manufacturer matter.


For consumer it should be as plug-and-play and transparent as possible, something like, plug two 3D certified devices together, and then the rest happens without you having to worry about it.

I think that's what Hdmi 1.4 is supposed to do.


----------



## BigPines




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BlackShark* /forum/post/19767596
> 
> 
> The PS3 frame sequential videos are not raw frame sequential, they use a proprietary marking system implemented by Sony for this purpose. I do not know any software that can produce it.



Well crap. That is going to kill it for me then.


I have an example file, we should be able to figure out how the flag is implemented and then create software to set the flag right? I guess this is my new quest.


Mike


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## icester

Quote:

Originally Posted by *BigPines* 
Well crap. That is going to kill it for me then.


I have an example file, we should be able to figure out how the flag is implemented and then create software to set the flag right? I guess this is my new quest.


Mike
No problem it is not proprietary.

Here is the tool to convert any video to PS3 HD format:

http://www.winxdvd.com/hd-video-converter/ 


You can download the trial version.


Mathew Orman


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## BlackShark

Can you upload that example file somewhere, I don't have a PS3 and I'd like to have a look at it too.


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## BigPines

Quote:

Originally Posted by *BlackShark* 
Can you upload that example file somewhere, I don't have a PS3 and I'd like to have a look at it too.
There is a short discussion and download link here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1271809 


Mike


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## BigPines

Quote:

Originally Posted by *icester* 
No problem it is not proprietary.

Here is the tool to convert any video to PS3 HD format:

http://www.winxdvd.com/hd-video-converter/ 


You can download the trial version.


Mathew Orman
I think all this does is convert video to H264 supported by the PS3. I don't think it will allow me to set a PS3 Frame Sequential flag in an H264 stream.


Mike


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## ricabullah

I have to point out this important confusion:

*3D encoding formats and display decoding technics:*



*3D Encoding Formats:*


Full 3D BD encoding format: frame packed; two 1920*1080 p frames encooded to 1080+45+1080=2055 so the final pack will be 1920*2055. (Over/Under)


You can encode it via h264 encoder and put it into an mkv container (as 1920*2055) or encode it with an MVC encoder and put it into an m2ts container (1920*1080*2)

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=158457 


Or you may want to put both left and right frames compressing to the half resolution (as horizontal or vertical) into one 1920*1080 frame.


horizontal compressing: Side by side 1920*1080 is consist of 960*1080 +960*1080


vertical compressing: Over/Under 1920*1080 is consist of 1920*540+1920*540


*Displaying (decoding) of encoded 3D content:*


Frame Sequential (alternate frame) display decoding:


Most of the latest generation 3D plasma and LCD TVs are capable of displaying 3D video with seperate left and right eye pictures in an alternating sequence


Checkerboard (DLP) display decoding:


DLP TVs and 3D ready DLP PJs use this decoding technic.


Finally if you send frame packed 3D video to a frame sequential TV, it will decode it to frame sequential format (lossless). If you send the same 3D to your DLP display it will convert it to checkerboard format and will decode as frame sequential format. (lossy) -in some cases you may need a converter box like PS3 to DLP case.



_ _ _ _ _ _


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## BigPines

Yes but you can also put encoded Frame Sequential H264 into an MKV or M2TS container and not use frame packing at all which is what I was interested in. The benefit of this is it decreases file size and increases image quality: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...47#post1468847 


If most modern 3D displays understand Frame Sequential 3D then maybe I shouldn't care if my PS3 decodes it or not.


Mike


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## ricabullah

Quote:

Originally Posted by *BigPines* 
Yes but you can also put encoded Frame Sequential H264 into an MKV or M2TS container and not use frame packing at all which is what I was interested in. The benefit of this is it decreases file size and increases image quality: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...47#post1468847 


If most modern 3D displays understand Frame Sequential 3D then maybe I shouldn't care if my PS3 decodes it or not.


Mike
Sorry but i don't understand what you mean with "frame sequential encoding" here?


Do you mean checkerboard encoding?


If so you will again loose the half quality...

_ _ _ _


----------



## BigPines

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ricabullah* 
Sorry but i don't understand what you mean with "frame sequential encoding" here?


Do you mean checkerboard encoding?


If so you will again loose the half quality...

_ _ _ _
You can actually encode H264 video with interleaved full resolution 1080x1920 frames L, R, L, R, L, R and so on. This can be done in x264. Check out the link I provided. The last couple of pages discuss this.


Mike


----------



## BlackShark

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ricabullah* 
*3D Encoding Formats:*


Full 3D BD encoding format: frame packed; two 1920*1080 p frames encooded to 1080+45+1080=2055 so the final pack will be 1920*2055. (Over/Under)
The total is 2205 pixels high, but you are describing Hdmi frame packing transmission format here, it has no purpose outside the hdmi cable and although it could be used, it is not suitable for storing video.

The BluRay 3D main format is MVC which is two separate 1920x1080p frames which the player exports to the display into whatever format it wants.


----------



## ricabullah




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigPines* /forum/post/19770576
> 
> 
> You can actually encode H264 video with interleaved full resolution 1080x1920 frames L, R, L, R, L, R and so on. This can be done in x264. Check out the link I provided. The last couple of pages discuss this.
> 
> 
> Mike



This is an interlaced compressed encoding like side by side or over/under.

Again you will loose the half of the resolution. The picture for each eye has full horizontal resolution, but half of the normal vertical resolution. (1920*540 in a 1080 p frame)


----------



## ricabullah




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BlackShark* /forum/post/19770664
> 
> 
> The total is 2205 pixels high, but you are describing Hdmi frame packing transmission format here, it has no purpose outside the hdmi cable and although it could be used, it is not suitable for storing video.
> 
> The BluRay 3D main format is MVC which is two separate 1920x1080p frames which the player exports to the display into whatever format it wants.



If you read my post carefully i showed the difference between h264 and MVC encoding and i always encode 3D to side by side for this reason.


----------



## walford




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ricabullah* /forum/post/19770848
> 
> 
> If you read my post carefully i showed the difference between h264 and MVC encoding and i always encode 3D to side by side for this reason.



Are you saying that all of your recordings are in HDMI 1.4a 1080i SbS 3d format?


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ricabullah* /forum/post/19770848
> 
> 
> If you read my post carefully i showed the difference between h264 and MVC encoding and i always encode 3D to side by side for this reason.



There is no h264 encoding.

h264 if the file extension name and the actual encoding is AVC or MVC.


I agree with you that MVC stereoscopic encoding method is worse than side by side.


Mathew Orman


----------



## walford

As I uderstand the following link both the 2D and the Delta files in the MVC format are encoded in H.264 format just the same as the 2D bluray disksare encoded in H.264 format.

If you think that they are not compressed and encoded in H.264 format are you saying that they are in compressd and encoded in MPEG2 format instead?

http://www.netblender.com/main/resou.../mvc-encoding/


----------



## BlackShark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ricabullah* /forum/post/19770823
> 
> 
> This is an interlaced compressed encoding like side by side or over/under.
> 
> Again you will loose the half of the resolution. The picture for each eye has full horizontal resolution, but half of the normal vertical resolution. (1920*540 in a 1080 p frame)



No you get it wrong.

We're talking about encoding full resolution progressive frames, and having the left and right frames interleaved one after the other. It's similar to how 120Hz 3DTVs with shutter glasses work, except it's done at the video encoding stage, not the display stage, and that the framerate does not need to match the display refresh rate, it's just for storing the video.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/19771602
> 
> 
> There is no h264 encoding.
> 
> h264 if the file extension name and the actual encoding is AVC or MVC.
> 
> 
> I agree with you that MVC stereoscopic encoding method is worse than side by side.
> 
> 
> Mathew Orman



Actually, H264 and AVC are both the name of the standard.

H.264 is the ITU name

AVC is the ISO name


If you've got a .h264 file then what you have is a raw video elementary stream, it has no real extension, some people use .264 .h264 .x264 .avc and some use none.


MVC is AVC with special frame hierarchy between the left and right eye views.

MVC provides the same compression efficiency as frame sequential + tagging but with the advantage that the stream is backwards compatible with any standard 2D AVC decoder.


----------



## ricabullah




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/19771600
> 
> 
> Are you saying that all of your recordings are in HDMI 1.4a 1080i SbS 3d format?



No i just said i re-encode them to AVC as 960*1080 +960*1080=1920*1080 (Side by Side)


----------



## ricabullah




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/19771602
> 
> 
> There is no h264 encoding.
> 
> h264 if the file extension name and the actual encoding is AVC or MVC.
> 
> 
> I agree with you that MVC stereoscopic encoding method is worse than side by side.
> 
> 
> Mathew Orman




Sorry, i should have used "AVC" term, you're right.


But i didn't say MVC is worse than side by side. (i'm looking for a free MVC encoder on doom9 forum as you know.)


----------



## BigPines

For anyone else that may be interested, I have just learned that the PS3 Sequential Frame format in the above linked video uses the same standard frame packing SEI (45) as x264 does. The only difference is the PS3 stream has the SEI before every frame (with current_frame_is_frame0 flag set for every other frame) while x264 only inserts the message once for each GOP.


So I will be testing this out (hopefully tonight) to see if the PS3 likes the video encoded with x264. If it does, we should have a workable solution (at least for the PS3). If it doesn't work, we should ask the x264 devs to add support for this PS3 Frame Sequential flag. There are enough PS3s out there that it would be valuable to the community if they could do this.


Mike


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ricabullah* /forum/post/19771850
> 
> 
> Sorry, i should have used "AVC" term, you're right.
> 
> 
> But i didn't say MVC is worse than side by side. (i'm looking for a free MVC encoder on doom9 forum as you know.)




Here is the free (courtesy of German tax payer) MVC encoder with "Stereo High" Profile.

http://iphome.hhi.de/suehring/tml/ 


Sony and Panasonic used it to create their 3D Blu-ray authoring applications.


Mathew Orman


----------



## BigPines




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/19775525
> 
> 
> Here is the free (courtesy of German tax payer) MVC encoder with "Stereo High" Profile.
> 
> http://iphome.hhi.de/suehring/tml/
> 
> 
> Sony and Panasonic used it to create their 3D Blu-ray authoring applications.
> 
> 
> Mathew Orman



This should be very interesting.


Mike


----------



## BigPines

Just an update on the x264 Frame Sequential testing with the PS3.


I have compiled a beta version of x264 that includes some enhancements for Frame Sequential 3D video as well as a custom hack to flag each frame with the appropriate flag. So far, the PS3 has not recognized any of my test videos as Frame Sequential. I continue to look into this issue and am hoping with the help of a few people more experienced than I, we will have a workable solution soon.


I'll try to keep this thread updated with any progress I make.


Mike


----------



## ricabullah




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/19775525
> 
> 
> Here is the free (courtesy of German tax payer) MVC encoder with "Stereo High" Profile.
> 
> http://iphome.hhi.de/suehring/tml/
> 
> 
> Sony and Panasonic used it to create their 3D Blu-ray authoring applications.
> 
> 
> Mathew Orman



Hi Mathew,

i'm not a coder and it's useless to me in this form.

Thanks btw.


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ricabullah* /forum/post/19847583
> 
> 
> Hi Mathew,
> 
> i'm not a coder and it's useless to me in this form.
> 
> Thanks btw.



Try regular Blu-ray authoring for 3D content.

Such 3D BDs play 3d in both 2D and 3D Blu-ray players.

I use Adobe CS5 Premiere and Encore. You can get quality output in 3D that outperforms regular 3D BDs.


Mathew Orman


----------



## BigPines




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/19847785
> 
> 
> Try regular Blu-ray authoring for 3D content.
> 
> Such 3D BDs play 3d in both 2D and 3D Blu-ray players.
> 
> I use Adobe CS5 Premiere and Encore. You can get quality output in 3D that outperforms regular 3D BDs.
> 
> 
> Mathew Orman



Are you saying CS5 Encore can encode an MVC 3D Blu-ray? I was not aware it could do that. I'll have to dig around for a tutorial.


Mike


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigPines* /forum/post/19851637
> 
> 
> Are you saying CS5 Encore can encode an MVC 3D Blu-ray? I was not aware it could do that. I'll have to dig around for a tutorial.
> 
> 
> Mike



No, I use broadcast 3D frame compatible format which is anamorphic side by side at 30Hz progressive.


Mathew Orman


----------



## ricabullah




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/19847785
> 
> 
> Try regular Blu-ray authoring for 3D content.
> 
> Such 3D BDs play 3d in both 2D and 3D Blu-ray players.
> 
> I use Adobe CS5 Premiere and Encore. You can get quality output in 3D that outperforms regular 3D BDs.
> 
> 
> Mathew Orman



Sorry but i used to use Premiere2 and Encore2 but i always found myself using intermediate formats (like Cineform) and frame servers.


Here are the options without MVC encoder (for the time being):

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=295 

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=300 



_ _ _ _ _ _


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ricabullah* /forum/post/19852766
> 
> 
> Sorry but i used to use Premiere2 and Encore2 but i always found myself using intermediate formats (like Cineform) or frame servers.
> 
> 
> Here are the options without MVC encoder (for the time being):
> 
> http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=295
> 
> http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=300
> 
> 
> 
> _ _ _ _ _ _



Blu-ray player will not play those formats.

Frame compatible is the only alternative to 3D BD 2D+Delta format.


Mathew Orman


----------



## ricabullah




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/19853034
> 
> 
> Blu-ray player will not play those formats.
> 
> Frame compatible is the only alternative to 3D BD 2D+Delta format.
> 
> 
> Mathew Orman



Sorry, forgotten you guys don't use HTPCs, it's my bad.


----------



## space2001

anyone figure this out for the ps3 to playback properly


----------



## BigPines




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *space2001* /forum/post/19886895
> 
> 
> anyone figure this out for the ps3 to playback properly



Not yet. I am still interested but I just haven't had the time to invest in it.


Mike


----------



## space2001

I have heard but have not tried it yet. Some people have been able to get Full Side by Side working on the ps3 through ps3 media server. I don't know what it does to the quality.


----------



## BigPines

If anyone has Frame Sequential working on the PS3, I would love to hear about it.


Mike


----------



## nosys70

possibly you should try the free Nokia MVC encoder.

They provide only the C++ source code, so you have to complile it first.

then the utility is a command line and the input files must be RAW YUV 4:2:0.

It is not so easy to find an apps able to export RAW YUV, but some are able to do this (YUVTools, ffmpeg and avisynth).


I have not tested it yet , but you should be able to burn this with any BD authoring system and get a 3D TV HDMI 1.4 compatible blu-ray.


----------



## gavi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigPines* /forum/post/19903452
> 
> 
> If anyone has Frame Sequential working on the PS3, I would love to hear about it.
> 
> 
> Mike



Mike, I read your posts with a lot of interest.

Did you understand more about this special PS3 video file format?


In my case, I have got a PS3 with with a compatible 3D display and that file is the only 3D video content I can see (in 3D and without an expensive 3D TV that decodes lots of formats, on top of the HDMI 1.4).

Many people with PS3 would love to be able to play a 3D HD MP4 1280x720 file from the USB disk.


Is there a sw or a way to produce/convert/understand that file format?


Why so little interest for it?

the PS3 is very common and, thanks to the VIP Gamer gadget and the Optoma 3D-XL, lots of old, cheap HD projectors can be used to see 3D videos with the PS3.


Pls Mike, keep me updated in case you discover more on that PS3 file format.

Cheers


----------



## space2001

would love to find this out as well. Only thing I wish is that I could also play the lossless sound in XMB


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gavi* /forum/post/20117168
> 
> 
> Mike, I read your posts with a lot of interest.
> 
> Did you understand more about this special PS3 video file format?
> 
> 
> In my case, I have got a PS3 with with a compatible 3D display and that file is the only 3D video content I can see.
> 
> 
> Is there a sw or a way to produce/convert/understand that file format?
> 
> 
> Why so little interest for it?
> 
> the PS3 is very common and, thanks to the VIP Gamer gadget and the Optoma one, lots of old, cheap HD projectors can be used to see 3D videos with the PS3.
> 
> 
> Pls Mike, keep me updated in case you discover more on that PS3 file format.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andrea



If you can copy it and make a link to the sample I will be able to tell you what it is and how to make such files.


Mathew Orman


----------



## space2001

 http://poseidon.dl.playstation.net/c...084&country=us 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1271809 


That is one of the videos


----------



## gavi

*Quote: "I will be able to tell you what it is and how to make such files." Mathew Orman*


Great Mathew!

yes, the file I tested is the same one for which space2001 posted the link:

E320103DSizzle_Trailer-3D720.MP4



It might not be relevant but I wish to explain what happens to my setup when I play this file.

My setup is relatively inexpensive:

- PS3 (version 3.55)

- VIP Gamer

- old HDMI 1.3 projector (HD, 120hz, but the Gamer supports slower ones too)


Ignoring 3D games (which work great) and ignoring the 3D blu-ray, when I put 3D files on a USB drive, the PS3 either does not play them or plays them in 2D.

But when I put the file above in a USB drive, the Video Player that is in XMB (main menu) of the PS3 recognises it as being in 3D.

If you do not have a 3D display, the PS3 plays the video correctly in 2D (left eye only) (but other players, such as VLC, do not see that the file is in 3D and show both the left and right eye frames in succession).


If the PS3 sees that you have got a HDMI 1.4 display, the PS3 shows the video in HDMI 1.4, in 3D.

In my setup, the VIP Gamer sees the HDMI 1.4 coming from the PS3, turns the projector to 3D and sends on-the-fly the 3D content in a 3D format compatible with the old projector.


Maybe not relevant but interesting: the Gamer is tiny, smaller than a XXS Freecom disk (while the Optoma 3D-XL is bigger). When I play 3D games, I notice no lag. The gadget turns the old projector to 3D and to 2D automatically, when needed.


Also, the file plays in 1280x720 resolution per each eye.


The Gamer always sends the image for the left eye first to the projector, however, very occasionally, the projector misses a beat. In those rare cases, I tell the projector to invert. My understanding is that all DLP projectors have got this option in the menu.

Playing games, it never happened so far that the projectors misses a beat but when playing this file many times, in slow motion, back and forth, etc., occasionally it happened (I mean not each time I played the file but only rarely).


Mathew, I am very much looking forward to hearing news on this file format!

Also, if you hear about a sw that can write this format, please let us know.


----------



## BlackShark

These file are frame sequential.

According to the folks at doom9, they have specific tags on each frame to tell whether it's left or right. The PS3 finds these tags and understands it's a 3D video.


There is no known tool to make such files.

A recent patch of x264 can create such tags when encoding an H264/Mpeg4-AVC video but they aren't made exactly like Sony implemented them so it does not work on the PS3.

You'd probably need one of Sony's professional 3D tools to produce such a file, until someone patches x264 to match Sony's implementation.


----------



## gavi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BlackShark* /forum/post/20123743
> 
> 
> You'd probably need one of Sony's professional 3D tools to produce such a file, until someone patches x264 to match Sony's implementation.



Thanks. So that is where we are...

Does anyone know which professional tool can create that file?


Who is capable of making the changes to the tools (codec/scripts) ? How can we reach the devs and motivate them ?


Maybe explaining that now the PS3 stereo 3D setup is really cool and inexpensive:

an old PS3, a VIP Gamer, an old projector bought on auction, a wall. Very inexpensive setup and an investment that should last a bit, given that it rests on standards such as HDMI 1.4 to show content and USB drive to save content.

In my case, the projector is short through

- so the stereo 3D HD image takes the whole wall and

- the projector is between the players and the wall, so that people can play with the Move motion controller (a plus over the PC and very precise, not like the wii).

There is zero cross talk, no rainbow, bright image.

The whole thing can be moved to a friend's home and mounted easily and in moments (the projector simply sits on a chair near the wall).

At version 3.55, the PS3 is a great tool, hundreds of games. Stereo 3D games are now coming every month. They have got almost no distracting artifacts and you do not need to wait for drivers to be updated with game profiles.

The quality of the PS3 games got better over the years and is now high.

and, apart from games, also the ability to play HD stereo 3D videos from USB...



But if they prefer not to adopt it, you have been in the 3D world for a long time:

How can we contact them?

How can we convince them to create the upgrade?


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gavi* /forum/post/20123504
> 
> *Quote: "I will be able to tell you what it is and how to make such files." Mathew Orman*
> 
> 
> Great Mathew!
> 
> yes, the file I tested is the same one for which space2001 posted the link:
> 
> E320103DSizzle_Trailer-3D720.MP4
> 
> 
> 
> It might not be relevant but I wish to explain what happens to my setup when I play this file.
> 
> My setup is relatively inexpensive:
> 
> - PS3 (version 3.55)
> 
> - VIP Gamer
> 
> - old HDMI 1.3 projector (HD, 120hz, but the Gamer supports slower ones too)
> 
> 
> Ignoring 3D games (which work great) and ignoring the 3D blu-ray, when I put 3D files on a USB drive, the PS3 either does not play them or plays them in 2D.
> 
> But when I put the file above in a USB drive, the Video Player that is in XMB (main menu) of the PS3 recognises it as being in 3D.
> 
> If you do not have a 3D display, the PS3 plays the video correctly in 2D (left eye only) (but other players, such as VLC, do not see that the file is in 3D and show both the left and right eye frames in succession).
> 
> 
> If the PS3 sees that you have got a HDMI 1.4 display, the PS3 shows the video in HDMI 1.4, in 3D.
> 
> In my setup, the VIP Gamer sees the HDMI 1.4 coming from the PS3, turns the projector to 3D and sends on-the-fly the 3D content in a 3D format compatible with the old projector.
> 
> 
> Maybe not relevant but interesting: the Gamer is tiny, smaller than a XXS Freecom disk (while the Optoma 3D-XL is bigger). When I play 3D games, I notice no lag. The gadget turns the old projector to 3D and to 2D automatically, when needed.
> 
> 
> Also, the file plays in 1280x720 resolution per each eye.
> 
> 
> The Gamer always sends the image for the left eye first to the projector, however, very occasionally, the projector misses a beat. In those rare cases, I tell the projector to invert. My understanding is that all DLP projectors have got this option in the menu.
> 
> Playing games, it never happened so far that the projectors misses a beat but when playing this file many times, in slow motion, back and forth, etc., occasionally it happened (I mean not each time I played the file but only rarely).
> 
> 
> Mathew, I am very much looking forward to hearing from you on this file format!
> 
> Also, if you hear about a sw that can write this format, please let us know.



It is simple 60 Hz frame sequential video which can be created using Adobe Premiere CS5 or some free command line tolls like AVIsynth.


I have created such video at 720p resolution using side by side video as an input.


I am uploading it to my rapishare account and will post a link shortly.


Mathew Orman


----------



## icester

Here it is:

http://icesterf.webd.pl/samples/frameseq.mp4 


Mathew Orman


----------



## gavi

Mathew,


thanks.

Very well done. The outcome of the test is surprising.


This video performs in the following way:

(1) on VLC, it does play just like the Sony one: VLC plays the left and right images in succession as if it were a 2D video (so it does not look pretty).

(2) on the PS3, there is a some success:

(2.1) the PS3 understands that it is a 3D video in which the left and right eye images follow each other.

How did you achieve that precisely?

So the PS3 understands that the video is 3D because it plays only the left eye (in 2D)

So the video does not look like a mess, as in VLC, but it looks good for a 2D video.

(2.2) at the same time, however, the PS3 refuses to play it in HDMI 1.4: maybe it recognizes that it is not yet equal to the PS3 format.

In other words, the PS3 plays your video in the same way of the Sony video when I do not connect the 3D display (the PS3 knows that the 3D display is connected: I played the Sony file in stereo 3D immediately after to make sure)



This is very interesting.

how comes that the PS3 understands that it is a 3D video, it understands the format of the video (where the left and right images are) and it still refuses to play in 3D...



PS:

After seeing the results on Matthew video, I tried also the following in Avidemux 2.5:

Opening the Sony file and saving it without re-coding the streams.

This file gives the same results as Matthews' one on VLC and PS3.

I was thinking that maybe Matthew's file was OK in the container but missed something in the stream while the Avidemux file missed something in the container but had the streams OK. Again, I was surprised to see them behaving the same: the PS3 played the left eye, not like VLC which could not notice the difference with a 2D file.


----------



## BlackShark

Since the PS3 does not allow 3D playback, I'd say it does not recognize the file as 3D and bet more on a decoding bug on the PS3 side.


My guess would be that the PS3 video decoder is not designed to play 60fps 2D video, Sony would have added 60fps playback only for these frame sequential 3D videos, but since your file misses Sony's left/right frame metadata, the console does not know which frame is left and which one is right.

In order to avoid playing reversed stereo, the PS3 would have been programmed to only show 2D until it is 100% sure of the frame order. (it does not just pick one randomly and let the user correct it if it's wrong like DLP-link projectors)


If this is the case, then the explanation with AVIDemux would be that although AVIDemux did not modify the streams, it probably does not keep these special tags Sony used, so the file becomes broken.


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gavi* /forum/post/20127365
> 
> 
> Mathew,
> 
> 
> thanks.
> 
> Very well done. The outcome of the test is surprising.
> 
> 
> This video performs in the following way:
> 
> (1) on VLC, it does play just like the Sony one: VLC plays the left and right images in succession as if it were a 2D video (so it does not look pretty).
> 
> (2) on the PS3, there is a some success:
> 
> (2.1) the PS3 understands that it is a 3D video in which the left and right eye images follow each other.
> 
> How did you achieve that precisely?
> 
> So the PS3 understands that the video is 3D because it plays only the left eye (in 2D)
> 
> So the video does not look like a mess, as in VLC, but it looks good for a 2D video.
> 
> (2.2) at the same time, however, the PS3 refuses to play it in HDMI 1.4: maybe it recognizes that it is not yet equal to the PS3 format.
> 
> In other words, the PS3 plays your video in the same way of the Sony video when I do not connect the 3D display (the PS3 knows that the 3D display is connected: I played the Sony file in stereo 3D immediately after to make sure)
> 
> 
> 
> This is very interesting.
> 
> how comes that the PS3 understands that it is a 3D video, it understands the format of the video (where the left and right images are) and it still refuses to play in 3D...
> 
> 
> 
> PS:
> 
> After seeing the results on Matthew video, I tried also the following in Avidemux 2.5:
> 
> Opening the Sony file and saving it without re-coding the streams.
> 
> This file gives the same results as Matthews' one on VLC and PS3.
> 
> I was thinking that maybe Matthew's file was OK in the container but missed something in the stream while the Avidemux file missed something in the container but had the streams OK. Again, I was surprised to see them behaving the same: the PS3 played the left eye, not like VLC which could not notice the difference with a 2D file.



Thank you I will now check the meta-data and headers to find out the difference and let you know.


Mathew Orman


----------



## icester

Try this new Japanese version:

http://icesterf.webd.pl/samples/jap.mp4 


The only difference I've noticed was the language tag.

I found no meta-data in the original file.


You can also try changing the name of my jap.mp4 sample to

E320103DSizzle_Trailer-3D720.MP4


Since as you can see the name contain some code with two characters as "3D".


Mathew Orman


----------



## gavi

Thanks BlackShark for the idea.


Still, even though Sony might not be happy of the risk of backups, it sells 3D camcorders. And also many other companies sell 3D camcorders.


I tend to think that the PS3 video player in the PS3 is designed to play at least one type of 3D videos (for the purpose of playing backups of files created by consumers with their camcorders).

And indeed it can play the E3 3D trailer in stereo 3D.


----------



## gavi

Mathew, thanks.


Maybe, one of the possible tests, is to try to decompose and recompose the Sony video and look for differences towards the original Sony file. Just an idea.


I think that it is really difficult to find those differences....


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gavi* /forum/post/20129977
> 
> 
> Mathew, thanks.
> 
> 
> Maybe, one of the possible tests, is to try to decompose and recompose the Sony video and look for differences towards the original Sony file. Just an idea.
> 
> 
> I think that it is really difficult to find those differences....



Did you try the new jap.mp4 video?


Mathew Orman


----------



## gavi

Matthew, I didn't see your post then.

Thanks for this new attempt.

I tried the second file now, both names, as you suggested.


They behave like the first file you sent.


----------



## BlackShark

The answer has been given two pages earlier. The guys at doom9 analysed the file and found how sony made it :

Quote:

Originally Posted by *BigPines* 
For anyone else that may be interested, I have just learned that the PS3 Sequential Frame format in the above linked video uses the same standard frame packing SEI (45) as x264 does. The only difference is the PS3 stream has the SEI before every frame (with current_frame_is_frame0 flag set for every other frame) while x264 only inserts the message once for each GOP.
There is no commonly available tool that can produce a stream like Sony used.

Unless you are a programmer and you can do a patch for x264 (or make your own tool to convert files).

Adding the SEI messages by hand with a HEX editor should also be possible, but... who could be desperate enough to do it ?


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gavi* /forum/post/20130310
> 
> 
> Matthew, I didn't see your post then.
> 
> Thanks for this new attempt.
> 
> I tried the second file now, both names, as you suggested.
> 
> 
> They behave like the first file you sent.



Thank you. It looks like the 3D information is in individual frames. I will debug this and come up with working solution.


Mathew Orman


----------



## icester

Try again:

http://icesterf.webd.pl/samples/AVCHD720p.mp4 


This one has the Sony PSP profile and the same encoder preset.


Mathew Orman


----------



## gavi

Thanks,

the performance of this file is different than the others.

On the PS3 is played like VLC plays it on the PC: the PS3 shows 2D and in rapid succession the left and the right eye images.



Another idea (this was suggested to me) to identify the format is the following:

- opening an open-source video-player in a debugging tool such as Visual Studio,

- See how this tool opens the Sony file and decodes/plays the 1st few frames.


In this way, we can mark all those bytes in the Sony file which have nothing to do with the special Sony 3D format (the pure video stream and parts of the container that we know cannot contain the special bytes).

In this way we can focus on relatively small area of the file.


If we do the same with the file generated by Avidemux, by copying the video and audio streams, we should see better what bytes are different. At this point of the analysis, they might be few.


Just an idea.


----------



## gavi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BlackShark* /forum/post/20130416
> 
> 
> Adding the SEI messages by hand with a HEX editor should also be possible, but... who could be desperate enough to do it ?




Yes, very correct in pointing out the state of the art which was described in the previous pages.

Rather than waiting tough, in order to move forward, I would edit the file as you suggested.

If I had the technical skills, to parse the container and the stream and to see what needs to be amended/added and here. I would do it because if the patched video file works, we would have found the algorithm.

If we had the algorithm, even with my limited programming skills, I would be able to write a program to convert files to the PS3 video format.

An inefficient program but it would do.


Mathew is confident that he can create files that are very similar to the Sony one and is confident that he can identify the differences. That process should yield the precise conversion algorithm.



The prize is huge, really: being able to have the PS3 to play any 3D video in stereo natively, rather than relying on very expensive TVs.

The reason why I say the prize is huge is because HDMI 1.4 displays are truly inexpensive now. I was giving the example of my setup where the VIP Gamer + old-school short through HD DLP projector have a cost which is multiples less than a multi-format 3D TV. Apart from big cost savings, there other benefits of playing S3D natively on the PS3 from USB: a display size as big as a wall, you mount it in a minute and, after watching the S3D video, you can play a bit with the Move controller with friends without having to worry that you interrupt the flow of light between the projector and the wall.

The PS3 community would be very happy.


Apart from all the currently available content in S3D, yesterday I went to an official Sony shop and asked the official expert there how can the Sony user will store and play the 3D videos made by Sony HDRTD10 new 3D camcorder.

He said categorically that the PS3 would not play such videos from the USB disk and the user would have to create a 3D Blu-ray.

But of course, the PS3 has got the ability to play 3D videos natively from the USB disk. Converting to this MP4 stereo 3D Sony format is a problem begging to be solved.


----------



## icester

Quote:

Originally Posted by *gavi* 
Yes, very correct in pointing out the state of the art which was described in the previous pages.

Rather than waiting tough, in order to move forward, I would edit the file as you suggested.

If I had the technical skills, to parse the container and the stream and to see what needs to be amended/added and here. I would do it because if the patched video file works, we would have found the algorithm.

If we had the algorithm, even with my limited programming skills, I would be able to write a program to convert files to the PS3 video format.

An inefficient program but it would do.


Mathew is confident that he can create files that are very similar to the Sony one and is confident that he can identify the differences. That process should yield the precise conversion algorithm.



The prize is huge, really: being able to have the PS3 to play any 3D video in stereo natively, rather than relying on very expensive TVs.

The reason why I say the prize is huge is because HDMI 1.4 displays are truly inexpensive now. I was giving the example of my setup where the VIP Gamer + old-school short through HD DLP projector have a cost which is multiples less than a multi-format 3D TV. Apart from big cost savings, there other benefits of playing S3D natively on the PS3 from USB: a display size as big as a wall, you mount it in a minute and, after watching the S3D video, you can play a bit with the Move controller with friends without having to worry that you interrupt the flow of light between the projector and the wall.

The PS3 community would be very happy.


Apart from all the currently available content in S3D, yesterday I went to an official Sony shop and asked the official expert there how can the Sony user will store and play the 3D videos made by Sony HDRTD10 new 3D camcorder.

He said categorically that the PS3 would not play such videos from the USB disk and the user would have to create a 3D Blu-ray.

But of course, the PS3 has got the ability to play 3D videos natively from the USB disk. Converting to this MP4 stereo 3D Sony format is a problem begging to be solved.
Sony Vegas has proven useless as it does not even have Sony PSP profile.

Instead I have installed professional AVC encoder made by MainConcept which allowed me to create almost identical preset. I will now need better h264 header viewer to verify that there is in deed a dedicated flag that indexes lef and right images. I may have to purchase PS3 to speed this process as I also have an interest in producing PS3 compatible 3D content.


Mathew Orman


----------



## icester

Quote:

Originally Posted by *gavi* 
Thanks,

the performance of this file is different than the others.

On the PS3 is played like VLC plays it on the PC: the PS3 shows 2D and in rapid succession the left and the right eye images.



Another idea (this was suggested to me) to identify the format is the following:

- opening an open-source video-player in a debugging tool such as Visual Studio,

- See how this tool opens the Sony file and decodes/plays the 1st few frames.


In this way, we can mark all those bytes in the Sony file which have nothing to do with the special Sony 3D format (the pure video stream and parts of the container that we know cannot contain the special bytes).

In this way we can focus on relatively small area of the file.


If we do the same with the file generated by Avidemux, by copying the video and audio streams, we should see better what bytes are different. At this point of the analysis, they might be few.


Just an idea.
I think there is no need for adding eye sync info in form of new (Sony proprietary) structures since it can be done by using appropriate key frame distance in encoding schema.


The problem at the moment is the Mediainfo application which reads the mp4 structure and reports format setting of GOP in M:x N:x format which is not sufficient for debugging B frames. So I need similar program which reports GOP in I:x P:x B:x format. With such, the encoder presets would be complete and only then I would know if there are any Sony custom eye order indexing.


I see someone is already requesting such feature for Mediainfo application:

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func...62&atid=581184 



Mathew Orman


----------



## icester

This is what Mediainfo reports on original Sony 3D content and for what I have tried to make a match for:

------------------------------------------------------

General

Complete name : C:\\Users\\User\\Desktop\\Rapid upload\\E320103DSizzle_Trailer-3D720.MP4

Format : MPEG-4

Format profile : Sony PSP

Codec ID : MSNV

File size : 200 MiB

Duration : 2mn 19s

Overall bit rate : 12.0 Mbps

Encoded date : UTC 2010-08-04 15:57:27

Tagged date : UTC 2010-08-04 15:57:27


Video

ID : 1

Format : AVC

Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec

Format profile : [email protected]

Format settings, CABAC : Yes

Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames

Format settings, GOP : M=1, N=56

Codec ID : avc1

Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding

Duration : 2mn 19s

Bit rate mode : Variable

Bit rate : 11.8 Mbps

Width : 1 280 pixels

Height : 720 pixels

Display aspect ratio : 16:9

Frame rate mode : Constant

Frame rate : 59.940 fps

Color space : YUV

Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0

Bit depth : 8 bits

Scan type : Progressive

Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.213

Stream size : 196 MiB (98%)

Language : Japanese

Encoded date : UTC 2010-08-04 15:57:27

Tagged date : UTC 2010-08-04 15:57:27

Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177

Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361

Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177


Audio

ID : 2

Format : AAC

Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec

Format profile : LC

Codec ID : 40

Duration : 2mn 19s

Bit rate mode : Variable

Bit rate : 256 Kbps

Maximum bit rate : 384 Kbps

Channel(s) : 2 channels

Channel positions : Front: L R

Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz

Compression mode : Lossy

Stream size : 4.27 MiB (2%)

Language : Japanese

Encoded date : UTC 2010-08-04 15:57:27

Tagged date : UTC 2010-08-04 15:57:27


------------------------------------------------------------

General

CompleteName : C:\\Users\\User\\Documents\\Adobe\\Premiere Pro\\5.0\\AVCHD720p_1.mp4

Format : MPEG-4

Format_Profile : Sony PSP

CodecID : MSNV

FileSize/String : 25.5 MiB

Duration/String : 26s 218ms

OverallBitRate/String : 8 166 Kbps

Encoded_Date : UTC 2011-03-11 08:27:19

Tagged_Date : UTC 2011-03-11 08:27:19


Video

ID/String : 1

Format : AVC

Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec

Format_Profile : [email protected]

Format_Settings_CABAC/String : Yes

Format_Settings_RefFrames/String : 4 frames

Format_Settings_GOP : M=1, N=56

CodecID : avc1

CodecID/Info : Advanced Video Coding

Duration/String : 26s 176ms

BitRate_Mode/String : Variable

BitRate/String : 8 018 Kbps

Width/String : 1 280 pixels

Height/String : 720 pixels

DisplayAspectRatio/String : 16:9

FrameRate_Mode/String : Variable

FrameRate/String : 59.940 fps

FrameRate_Minimum/String : 39.973 fps

FrameRate_Maximum/String : 59.940 fps

Standard : NTSC

ColorSpace : YUV

ChromaSubsampling : 4:2:0

BitDepth/String : 8 bits

ScanType/String : Progressive

Bits-(Pixel*Frame) : 0.145

StreamSize/String : 25.0 MiB (98%)

Language/String : English

Encoded_Date : UTC 2011-03-11 08:27:19

Tagged_Date : UTC 2011-03-11 08:27:19

Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177

Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361

Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177


Audio

ID/String : 2

Format : AAC

Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec

Format_Profile : LC

CodecID : 40

Duration/String : 26s 218ms

BitRate_Mode/String : Constant

BitRate/String : 157 Kbps

Channel(s)/String : 2 channels

ChannelPositions : Front: L R

SamplingRate/String : 48.0 KHz

Compression_Mode/String : Lossy

StreamSize/String : 504 KiB (2%)

Language/String : English

Encoded_Date : UTC 2011-03-11 08:27:19

Tagged_Date : UTC 2011-03-11 08:27:19


-------------------------------------------------------------


Mathew Orman


----------



## gavi

Very good progress Mathew.

It seems to me that, concerning the information that MedioInfo can capture, the two video are the same.

Which of the videos is the one you compared? One of those you gave us to test or a new one?


So, from your post before the last one, I understand that you are now moving towards debugging the extra info in each frame.

Please keep us updated.

Do we know what tool PigPines used for his analysis, the analysis that BlackShark pointed our attention to.

Also, was that analysis complete? I have the impression that BigPines implemented the changes he identified but it still did not work on the PS3.


----------



## icester

Quote:

Originally Posted by *gavi* 
Very good progress Mathew.

It seems to me that, concerning the information that MedioInfo can capture, the two video are the same.

Which of the videos is the one you compared? One of those you gave us to test or a new one?


So, from your post before the last one, I understand that you are now moving towards debugging the extra info in each frame.

Please keep us updated.

Do we know what tool PigPines used for his analysis, the analysis that BlackShark pointed our attention to?

Also, was that analysis complete? I have the impression that BigPines implemented the changes he identified but it still did not work on the PS3.
I have just ordered PS3 to speed the debugging and test the performance of the PS3 Game SDK.


The two headers from my previous post are: first one is the original video that works and second is the same I have posted a link to.


Should have more information on this mysterious Sony 3D frame sequential format soon.


Mathew Orman


----------



## space2001

Great Job on this guys.


Did any of the files work if you set the tv/projector to frame sequential.


----------



## gavi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icester* /forum/post/20146766
> 
> 
> I have just ordered PS3 to speed the debugging and test the performance of the PS3 Game SDK.
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> Should have more information on this mysterious Sony 3D frame sequential format soon.
> 
> 
> Mathew Orman



Mathew,

it is great that soon you will receive the PS3 !

(we were seeing the Sony MP4 in native HDMI 1.4 on firmware version 3.55)


Also, a very good idea to look into its SDK: maybe it is explained there how to create this type of video files: they might be useful to PS3 developers to show in-game 3D footage.


Please keep us updated


----------



## BigPines




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gavi* /forum/post/20146511
> 
> 
> Very good progress Mathew.
> 
> It seems to me that, concerning the information that MedioInfo can capture, the two video are the same.
> 
> Which of the videos is the one you compared? One of those you gave us to test or a new one?
> 
> 
> So, from your post before the last one, I understand that you are now moving towards debugging the extra info in each frame.
> 
> Please keep us updated.
> 
> Do we know what tool PigPines used for his analysis, the analysis that BlackShark pointed our attention to.
> 
> Also, was that analysis complete? I have the impression that BigPines implemented the changes he identified but it still did not work on the PS3.



At this point, I am just guessing like everybody else. The guys on Doom 9 helped me get as far as I did.


I am a software developer but I simply don't have the experience to fix this problem on my own. Since I couldn't seem to get anyone interested in patching x264, I attempted to patch it myself without success.


I am still very interested in this project and would love to help any way I can.


Mike


----------



## gavi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigPines* /forum/post/20152299
> 
> 
> At this point, I am just guessing like everybody else. The guys on Doom 9 helped me get as far as I did.
> 
> 
> I am a software developer but I simply don't have the experience to fix this problem on my own. Since I couldn't seem to get anyone interested in patching x264, I attempted to patch it myself without success.
> 
> 
> I am still very interested in this project and would love to help any way I can.
> 
> 
> Mike



Mike,

I am happy to hear that you are still very interested in this project.


You did very nice progress on the project.

Mathew is progressing nicely.


Is there is a way for you to get more information about the Sony format from the Doom 9 guys? I understand that they have no interest in changing the codec (for lack of PS3 or 3D display) but it would still be very useful to nail down the PS3 format in detail.

My impression is that Mathew is now alone in this very difficult objective and I hope that you can collaborate because to solve these complex issues alone is particularly challenging.


If we had the PS3 format nailed down, apart from updating the coded, we could manually create a file with a dozen frames and make sure it works.

Also we could create a program to patch files similar to the PS3 format to make them 100% PS3 compliant.

At that point, it should be easier to get the codec upgraded.


----------



## BigPines

For anyone interested, the Doom 9 thread discussing these issues is:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=158457&page=17 


Mike


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigPines* /forum/post/20153035
> 
> 
> For anyone interested, the Doom 9 thread discussing these issues is:
> 
> http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=158457&page=17
> 
> 
> Mike



How frame packing relates to x264 compression is a mystery to me.

Could anyone explain?


Mathew Orman


----------



## icester

OK

They used the name frame packing which was already defined in HDMI 1.4a video transmission protocol.

The correct name for it is frame compatible stereo.

Such has nothing to do with Sony's frame sequential stereo

so the SEI messages are irrelevant and for sure Sony did not use it as it only applies to frame compatible stereo.


Mathew Orman


----------



## BlackShark

Frame packing is a generic term that was already used previously, for example it was used for naming one of the hacks (B-frame packing) that allows storing MPEG video (MPEG1, 2 or 4) into .AVI containers.


The official name used by MPEG for this SEI message is "Frame Packing Arrangement SEI Message" and has been added to the MPEG4 AVC standard.

Sony uses it and x264 writes it. The problem is that they are at the moment the only implementations of this SEI message and they write it differently.


Hdmi doesn't hold a trade mark on "Frame Packing".


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BlackShark* /forum/post/20153576
> 
> 
> Frame packing is a generic term that was already used previously, for example it was used for naming one of the hacks (B-frame packing) that allows storing MPEG video (MPEG1, 2 or 4) into .AVI containers.
> 
> 
> The official name used by MPEG for this SEI message is "Frame Packing Arrangement SEI Message" and has been added to the MPEG4 AVC standard.
> 
> Sony uses it and x264 writes it. The problem is that they are at the moment the only implementations of this SEI message and they write it differently.
> 
> 
> Hdmi doesn't hold a trade mark on "Frame Packing".



I do not think so.

Sony uses MainConcept and they did not implement such method of frame indexing yet.


In any case I will nail this problem soon.


Mathew Orman


----------



## BlackShark

The user at doom9 said the SEI messages were present for every frame in Sony's file.

Is this correct or incorrect ?


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BlackShark* /forum/post/20153702
> 
> 
> The user at doom9 said the SEI messages were present for every frame in Sony's file.
> 
> Is this correct or incorrect ?



He did not answer when ask how he arrived at such conclusion or what tools he used to debug the transport stream in the Sony's 3d movie sample.



Mathew Orman


----------



## BlackShark

Here is the answer he gives at Doom9 forums


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nm @ Doom9 forums* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigPines @ Doom9 forums* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> nm, how did you determine the PS3 file had flags on every frame? How can I look at my videos to determine the same? I opened them up in a hex editor but couldn't see anything obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used h264_parse from the MPEG4IP project on a demuxed elementary stream, and since my version didn't support the frame packing SEI, I had to parse its contents manually from the hex dump.
> 
> 
> PS3 probably expects you to set current_frame_is_frame0_flag=1 for the left view frame and current_frame_is_frame0_flag=0 for the right.
Click to expand...


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BlackShark* /forum/post/20153893
> 
> 
> Here is the answer he gives at Doom9 forums



h264_parse does not work with mp4 files.

And hex dump will not index

set current_frame_is_frame0_flag.


So, it does not make sense at all.


Mathew Orman


----------



## BlackShark

Extract the data by hand from the mp4 file using a hex editor into a raw elementary stream, then open the raw stream with h264_parse.

That is what I understand.


It looks scary. Just out of curiosity, how garbled does mp4 files look ? (no I don't want to know, I don't want to have nightmares, I shouldn't ask that or I'll have a look and be doomed)


----------



## icester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BlackShark* /forum/post/20154441
> 
> 
> Extract the data by hand from the mp4 file using a hex editor into a raw elementary stream, then open the raw stream with h264_parse.
> 
> That is what I understand.
> 
> 
> It looks scary. Just out of curiosity, how garbled does mp4 files look ? (no I don't want to know, I don't want to have nightmares, I shouldn't ask that or I'll have a look and be doomed)



And how would do that by hand?


Mathew Orman


----------



## space2001

any update on this. I would be very interested since I would like to but a camcorder and not use side by side.


Thanks


----------



## gavi

I have got no news on how to create the MP4 video that the PS3 can play natively in 3D.

I am referring to this:
http://poseidon.dl.playstation.net/c...084&country=us 



I installed the latest Sony Vegas Pro 10 (version 10d).

It does not recognise the Sony Mp4 as 3D and it does not have "frame sequential" among its many 3D outputs.


The only partial news, at least for me, is that Vegas Pro says that the AVC encoder used to create the Sony file is called:

HMMP Video Encoder 1.10

(the latest version seems to be 1.14 and the developer seems to be Sony).


By searching the net, I could not identify how to get this encoder nor whether it is part of a professional 3D authoring sw.


As an additional attempt, I hoped that the 3D video encoder was in the latest PS3 SDK 1.92 that leaked publicly but I could not find it there.


----------



## space2001

Any news on this yet


----------



## gavi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *space2001* /forum/post/20754111
> 
> 
> Any news on this yet



no additional news on my side.

I thought that my previous post was sufficient for people to identify the encoder and the sw it ships with, but not so.



very surprisingly, it seems that we are the only ones interested in stereo 3D HD video that the PS3 shows natively in HDMI 1.4


----------



## space2001

I am sure there There would be interest especially since you can have full hd and not sbs


----------



## racer_300m

Hi guys, new to the forum.


I've followed this discussion from the doom thread as I'm also very keen to get the PS3 to auto switch into 3D mode when playing back my self produced 3D files.


I don't know if this has been asked, but has anyone been able to get a 1/2 res sbs file to auto switch using SEI frame packing 3?


----------



## gavi

News from internet searches concerning the leaked PS3 SDK 3.60:

it seems that:

(1) it contains a simple Windows graphical application to convert input .AVI videos into .PAM files. PAM files are the PS3 videos that games use for cut scenes. Such files are playable from the PS3 main menu. (It is not clear whether they can be in 3D).

(2) among the many sample programs, there is a stereoscopic video player that can play SBS (side by side) videos in PS3 3D natively.

(3) there is also a utility to capture the screen into MP4 files (whether they are in 3D it is not clear).


----------



## tal.aloni

Sorry to bump an old thread,
I've tried to create frame-sequential 3D MP4 files similar to E320103DSizzle_Trailer-3D720.MP4 that will play in 3D with the Sony PlayStation 3,
(p.s. I found out that the 2014 Sony Bravia W8 series will play back such files in 3D from USB, I personally tested KDL-50W815B, KDL-50W805A)

I've observed that in 'E320103DSizzle_Trailer-3D720.MP4' each frame has:
1. access unit delimiter NAL
2. pic_timing SEI
3. frame_packing_arrangement SEI (a.k.a. payload type 45)

In addition, there is something special about the MP4 muxing itself,
I've tried to demux and remux 'E320103DSizzle_Trailer-3D720.MP4' using two different programs (MP4Box and MP4Creator),
this broke the ability of the Sony PS3 (v3.55) to detect the file as 3D.

I've noted that the following MP4 atoms are critical for successful 3D detection:
ftyp atom: majorBrand MUST be MSNV.
ftyp atom: one of the compatibleBrandsCount MUST be MSNV.
user atoms (uuid atoms): the presence of user (read: vendor) atoms is critical,
the AVC atom has a child user atom with uuid that starts with 3DDS,
and the user video-profile atom has a 3D related flag.

most of the structures fields are covered in movenc.c file from ffmpeg, I've managed to uncover the rest.

This means one must come-up with a tool that will mux or convert to Sony-compatible frame sequential 3D MP4 files.


----------



## tal.aloni

Done!
1. I wrote an MP4 multiplexer that can create PlayStation 3 / Sony W8 compatible 3D frame-sequential videos.
2. I've fixed x264 so it will produce valid frame-packing 5 videos.

A complete guide and a few 3D frame-sequential samples for the PS3 are available here.


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## Harry M. Aasterud

Hi Tal.aloni.

Interesting. I downloaded your test files and managed them to play them from a Roku 3. (720p works great, 1080p does not give me 3D, but I must assume this is inherrit to the DLP-link protocol). Files where installed on a Plex Media Server. Playback was done on a 3D ready DLP projector using DLP-Link + glasses. The Roku 3 and Projector are hooked up over a receiver with HDMI.

Reason for testing is that 3D ready DLP projectors only can play back 720p Frame Sequential. So I guess I will be havving a problem when playing 3D movies direct from the BD. One option is to buy a 3D convertor, but in that case it would only solve the issue for playing from my BD player. I want to copy the files over to my media server. Again, I could use the same convertor, but I rather do it without the additional hardware.

I have no clue where to begin, but maybe the best place is to begin at the begin... ? Are the native vob files of a 3D disk already Frame Sequential? Or do they regardless what always need to be converted if I want them saved as a frame sequential file?

Is this something your multiplexer can help me with? And if so, is it with a GUI, or can it also be used with a CLI. For now I used ffmpeg over CLI, but it seems like there is a lack of support when it comes to 3D Frame Sequential files.

Looking forward to hear from you. I did a lot of googling, and I think by finding your post about your media files, I am finally a first step closer to my goal.


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## Harry M. Aasterud

icester said:


> Quote:Originally Posted by *gavi*
> It is simple 60 Hz frame sequential video which can be created using Adobe Premiere CS5 or some free command line tolls like AVIsynth.
> 
> I have created such video at 720p resolution using side by side video as an input.
> 
> I am uploading it to my rapishare account and will post a link shortly.
> 
> Mathew Orman


Could you please point me in the right direction on how to convert SBS to FS with AVIsynth? For playback on a DLP 3D ready projector.


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## Harry M. Aasterud

Okay, learning something new everyday .

I installed SSIFsucka which kind of automates the entire convertion procedure among the various required software packages. The result seems to be that a SIFF file the main source, and the output file is a 2 x 1080p (L+R) interlaced media file in MKV format.

From what I can see when playing back on my DLP 3D ready projector, the file is Frame Sequential. But the problem is (again, if my understanding is correct) that DLP 3D ready projectors can only play back 2 x 720p FS files as 3D.

I tried the "Squeezed" option, but the output file is still a 1080p file. Any suggestions on how to fix this?

Many thanks in advance for your help.


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## Kano3D

tal.aloni said:


> Done!
> 1. I wrote an MP4 multiplexer that can create PlayStation 3 / Sony W8 compatible 3D frame-sequential videos.
> 2. I've fixed x264 so it will produce valid frame-packing 5 videos.
> 
> A complete guide and a few 3D frame-sequential samples for the PS3 are available here.


I'm on a mission to standarize 3D again instead using temporary solutions like SBS:








Let’s use the existing high quality 3D standards if we want 3D to return. We urgently need to switch to MPO and frame interleaved!


UPDATE: Added more technical info on the video section, so developers or enthusiasts can start producing interleaved videos. At the beginning of the Digital 3D era, 3D video was very difficult to u…




www.tridimensional.info





Could you upload again the file?


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