# rajdude's Ampro 4200 setup and troubleshooting threads



## rajdude

Hello Everyone,

I recently acquired another PJ an Ampro 4200G









It is in good condition with minty tubes. Due to the good tubes I have high hopes for this PJ. This thread will follow the setup of that PJ from scratch.


I'm gonna need some help from fellow AVSers as new issues crop up,.. and with Ampro PJs reputation, I am sure there will be lot of issues!










Thanks for reading and responding!










-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

I have the manuals for 2000, 3000, and 4000 and 4600 and 3600. I can't find a service manual for 4200G. I hear there were no manuals but it is true?



Also, I already know these links, does anymore have more information on these PJs?

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...threadid=86432 
http://dion.swamp.dk/ampro4200g.html 
http://www.curtpalme.com/Ampro1500.htm 


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Hello Everyone,

Friday night, I spent a good amount of time with this PJ. I fired it up and saw that it won't do anything; I mean it will not accept any commands from the remote. After tinkering with it for a full 2 hrs I finally realized that it maybe in the executive mode ! I totally forgot that Most PJs have a service man mode so as to set them up. Ampro starts up in the "executive mode" THAT is why no buttons are active at power up!!







The manual did not tell me to get out of Exec mode first! Or maybe I did not read correctly, after all it was 2 AM in the morning!










I FINALLY learnt (after wasting a couple of hrs) that you have to put 909 CODE to get the pj respond.
















*Here is the first issue (already)







*

*Issue #1*

The projector's help menu and test patterns do not seem to be working properly. (or maybe I am not doing something right)


When I press the menu button, (9 times out of 10) the menu does not show up. Instead I get 2-3 words at the bottom right corner. It looks something like this


enu

OBJECT 


Looks like the menu does not come up properly. It looks like there may be something wrong with the help menu/test pattern generator board.

*Issue #2*

Also the input image does not show up like 70% of times. Do you have to press a button to do it? I have selected the RGB input and selected channel 1.


All help is highly appreciated!









-Rajiv


----------



## Curt Palme

Two things. Your memory battery is probably bad, the black rectangular block on the CPU board. It should be at 3.6 volts. Anything under 3.2 or so can cause glitching. Change that first. I have stock if you can't find them, they are starting to get hard to find, but they should be out there.


2) Get rid of all of your blanking. That will cause loss of pix or menus or test patterns. IN each mode (signal, help, test pattern), turn the blanking to min/max, whatever setting is appropriate for the 4 sides. THe 2000 manual is about the same as the 4200. The 4600 manual will give you some extra menu and code functions not outlined in the 2000.


----------



## Clarence

Hi Raj-


See if this thread helps...
Ampro HELP text not displaying 


-Clarence


----------



## Curt Palme

Clarence, you are the GOD of old posts.


Heck, I can't remember what I posted yesterday..


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Curt Palme* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Two things. Your memory battery is probably bad, the black rectangular block on the CPU board. It should be at 3.6 volts. Anything under 3.2 or so can cause glitching. Change that first. I have stock if you can't find them, they are starting to get hard to find, but they should be out there.
> 
> 
> 2) Get rid of all of your blanking. That will cause loss of pix or menus or test patterns. IN each mode (signal, help, test pattern), turn the blanking to min/max, whatever setting is appropriate for the 4 sides. THe 2000 manual is about the same as the 4200. The 4600 manual will give you some extra menu and code functions not outlined in the 2000.



Thanks for the tips Curt!







I will check the voltage tonight.
*Quick Qs*

(1). The CPU board is the board on the extreme left, if viewing the pj from the backside (the one where the remote plugs in) right?


(2). Do I have to take out the CPU board to check the voltage of the battery?


(3). I have also got this error at least two times, mostly when I was re-starting the PJ again and again.

*"ERROR 20 AT 4e

CHANNEL 77"*


Any tips?


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Raj-
> 
> 
> See if this thread helps...
> Ampro HELP text not displaying
> 
> 
> -Clarence




Thanks Clarence, that helps. But if you already set the blanking shouldn't it be all set now?? Unless it is losing the memory (like Curt said).


Also, when you had this pj, was it stable? I mean whenever you pressed help, did the menu come up everytime, reliably?


I am also not getting the image (I am feeding) to show up everytime I switch on the PJ. The relays do not click and it seems the tubes do not turn on OR the PJ does not sync to the input (I can hear the loud high frequency noise whenever the picture is about to come on)


-Rajiv


----------



## Curt Palme

1) Yes

2) No, with pointy test leads you can piuck off the two battery solder points without removing the board (but feel free to..







)


Remove AC power as there's a continuous 5 volts on that board. It will nuke the CPU if the board is removed with power applied. (or at least it can).


3) Data communication error between boards. The battery might cure that.


----------



## Clarence

I'm pretty sure once I set the blanking, then it persisted the next time I powered up and used the same source resolution.


I know I had to do it 3 or 4 times, but I'm pretty sure that was only when setting up different inputs.


When you power up without getting a picture, does the remote properly indicate the model number?


I never saw anything like "ERROR 20 AT 4e CHANNEL 77". Does it say that on the screen or on the remote? The manual says _"ERROR # AT # (I2C ERROR)" Possible cause: Communication failure between internal modules._


----------



## Clarence

30 CODE


----------



## Clarence












4E= Registration

ERROR 20 = Slave to write data address


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure once I set the blanking, then it persisted the next time I powered up and used the same source resolution.
> 
> 
> I know I had to do it 3 or 4 times, but I'm pretty sure that was only when setting up different inputs.



Does "setting up different inputs" mean (say) you were playing your HTPC, but then later you hooked up your DVD player? Hence you had to setup the blanking again?


But again, I have seen the menu work properly at least 2-3 times. But I could not go all the way through (due to you know, take the dog out, have dinner, etc etc







). When I came back and re-started the PJ, the menu won't come up at all !







I'm like ...hey this thing was working properly 10 minutes ago!











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When you power up without getting a picture, does the remote properly indicate the model number?



Yes, and if I do a system status code (it is 30-CODE I guess) it says everything is fine. Then it just says RGB input, Channel but does not display anything.










Of course this happens intermittently. 10% of times it works properly.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I never saw anything like "ERROR 20 AT 4e CHANNEL 77". Does it say that on the screen or on the remote? The manual says _"ERROR # AT # (I2C ERROR)" Possible cause: Communication failure between internal modules._




It displays that message on the LCD. The screen is totally blank.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 4E= Registration
> 
> ERROR 20 = Slave to write data address



Thanks for scraping up the info

















-RM


----------



## Clarence

Of course, I have no idea what _"Slave to write data address"_ is supposed to mean, but it's probably a loose connector or like Curt suggested, maybe a weak battery.


What's the part # on the Registration board?



> Quote:
> Does "setting up different inputs" mean (say) you were playing your HTPC, but then later you hooked up your DVD player? Hence you had to setup the blanking again?



Yes... if I switched from PC 1280x1024, to HD DVR 1080i/720p, then to DVD, etc


----------



## rajdude

OK!!
















I am in a good mood today because the Ampro put a reasonable picture yesterday night. Now I can see what new picture tubes on a CRT PJ can do.









*Action #1 (battery voltage)*

Curt, I checked the voltage of the Battery. It is kinda strange, but I am getting 0.36 volts across the terminals.







After running the PJ for 2 hrs that voltage was still 0.38 V

Here is how I tested it.

The card was in the slot (I did not take it out) The PJ was turned off . (Even when the PJ was switched on, the voltage was the same). Please refer to the diagram below:-










_Between the points_

A and B it measures 0.36 volts

B to D measures 0 volts

C to D measures 0 volts

A to D measures 0 volts (not sure about this one, forgot)


Which points are the correct ones?
[added later] the points A and B are the correct ones. With reference from Curt's site
http://www.curtpalme.com/Ampro1500.htm 


The Battery says 3.5 volts Lithium on it. Isn't it supposed to be a rechargeable battery? Doesn't look like that, since even when the PJ is powered up, the battery voltage is still the same.


Also the PJ seems to retain the memory even at this low voltage, why?
[added later] actually, it does not. I confirmed this later on

*Action #2 (The menu issue)*

I tried the blanking, Clarence was right. My top and left blanking was at the max settings.

BUT even after I set the blanking to minimum the menu won't come up. Then I saw a code for initialize test screens in the manual. THAT did the trick.







After that I also set another code, that one is right below the initialize test screens code I guess it is to reset all help screens to the default parameters.


*Action # 3 (convergence)*

After that I proceeded to do a full convergence. This PJ's menu driven setup is very helpful.







It is a very long and tedious process but I am getting the hang of it. I did not finish it last night as it was 1 AM by the time I did the RED to GREEN convergence.







I will continue tonight.


Also, I notice that the internal test patterns are very noisy. I'll try feeding an external test pattern after I go through all the help screens.

[added later] external test patterns are pristine!I'll NEVER use the internal test patterns on this again. BTW, I am usign a HTPC to feed test patterns to the PJ. The philips test pattern generator is awesome. That lets you put out dots, which the Nokia TPG does not.

_Thanks for all tips._

-Rajiv


----------



## Z-Photo

R-


You have much higher pain threshold than I do.










I gave up on the whole Ampro codes thing.....


Pete


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *StealthZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> R-
> 
> 
> You have much higher pain threshold than I do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I gave up on the whole Ampro codes thing.....
> 
> 
> Pete



Pete,

Actually, I find them pretty straighforward. All you need is a cheat-sheet. I think (sometimes) it gets work done faster than going through a set of menus like on my Sony.


I also wonder why some people talk about the dreaded "incorrect direction" error message. You merely have to use the STEP and the TEST to go forward and backward respectively through the menu system.


(I'd agree that having to press TEST to go "backward" is kinda stupid














but once you memorise it the routine becomes second nature, like driving a car.







)


Overall I like the guided setup system, if only the test patterns were accurate and sharp. OR maybe my PJ's test patterns are not good.

*Other Ampro owners, are your test patterns sharp??*


I will post screenshots tonight to show what I am talking about here.


-RM


----------



## phooka

Clarence,


"Slave Write to ..." is an I2C error. I2C is an 2 wire serial interconnect bus. Basically in the case discussed above, the CPU tried to set up one of the registration control DACs and failed to get the command acknowledged.


rajdude,


The I2C bus is strung all over the ampro chassis. Get yourself some good contact cleaner and clean every plug and wire harness you can. The 2 wire connections that are not part of the video signal chain are the i2c bus. A dirty/partial contact anywhere in there can cause the i2c errors.


The ampro i2c bus isn't clocked too high... but it does go all over the chassis. Cleaning up the contacts will make the covergance _much_ more stable.


If you keep getting i2c errors I can point you at some circuits to build and i2c sniffer the hooks to a PC parallel port. That can shed all kinds of light on i2c glitches.


--

Nick


----------



## phooka

To follow up... god I hate doing this....


rajdude,


make sure your source is on and you are on the right channel before entering help->setup or the genlock can be way off. In any case it will be off. At least on the 2300, 2600HD, and 4000 I have seen, the testpaterns are not great.


If you can use something else as a test pattern, do so. Skip the guided setup and walk through the the setup steps found in the service manual. All guided setup does is flip the registration board on and off, and really make flipping between pincusion/keystone/horizontal/vertical a real PITA.


Also get the magnetics right.... longer term stability of the convergence is on these Ampros is much better than their reputation.


--

Nick


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phooka* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The I2C bus is strung all over the ampro chassis. Get yourself some good contact cleaner and clean every plug and wire harness you can. The 2 wire connections that are not part of the video signal chain are the i2c bus. A dirty/partial contact anywhere in there can cause the i2c errors.
> 
> Nick



Thanks for the tip, Nick









yesterday night I did not get that error even once (knock on wood







) but if it happens regularly I will look into the possibility of cleaning the contacts.


BTW, what does the I2C bus connectors look like and where are they located?


Thanks

Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phooka* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To follow up... god I hate doing this....
> 
> 
> snip
> 
> If you can use something else as a test pattern, do so.
> 
> snip



Yes, tonight I will hook up the HTPC (lets say it is just a wanna-be HTPC) and use the Nokia test generator. Any tips on *what the contrast setting should be* while I am displaying the convergence patterns so as to prevent burn-in (for a reasonably long time)??



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phooka* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also get the magnetics right.... longer term stability of the convergence is on these Ampros is much better than their reputation.



Yes, I will do that too. I read the Guy Kuo manual, I understand that the focus and magnetics are to be tweaked first; then comes convergence.


Thanks again


----------



## rajdude

*I have 2 questions for AVS member -- Dion^Swamp*

*Question 1*

I see that you changed the belly fans of the 4200G with 120mm ones. I'd like to do that too. But how about the current draw? Does a bigger replacement fan cause any issues with any sensors? (I do not know if this PJ has sensors which detect if a fan has failed)


*Question 2*

Also do you really have to take everything out of the the chasis and disassmble it completely (like the pictures on your website) to enlarge the hole for the 120MM fans?


For more air-flow, did you consider adding fans where you made 4 holes (on the top of the case?)


----------



## phooka

I have never seen the inside of a 4200. Going from the 2600 and 2300 that shared lots of boards with the 4200 the main connections that carry the i2c bus that I have found are:


- CPU board connectors (the bottom of the cpu card to the backplane)

- the RGB1 card connectors to the backplane

- a 20 or so pin ribbon cable from the backplane to the registration board

- the 2 wire connections from the PLL (the metal encased subboard on the registration tray) to the focus modulator board


While you are at it clean the RGB connections from RGB1 card to the neckboards. Since the video preamps are on the neckboards, these connections really need to be solid to avoid noise.


Basically figure the machine is ~10 years old. There is going to be oxidation on all the contacts. Cleaning can't hurt -- unless you fail to connect everything up properly


good luck


--

Nick


----------



## tse

"Other Ampro owners, are your test patterns sharp??


I will post screenshots tonight to show what I am talking about here.


-RM "


Press "4" then "test" for internal test patterns that are gen-locked to the external video source.


Don't expect too much, the internal test patterns never did work perfectly.


----------



## rajdude

I just fired it up and to my dismay all the convergence I did last night is gone!!










Is there some SAVE button somewhere? I cannot find any reference in the manual. I do see a CODE to "validate and protect..."


Is this the SAVE settings option?


-RM


----------



## tse

There is no "save" function. All adjustments are saved in the "channel" that they were made in. If the battery voltage is really 0.38V like you measured, the battery is shot. Strange things are gonna happen.


----------



## Dion^Swamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> *I have 2 questions for AVS member -- Dion^Swamp*
> 
> *Question 1*
> 
> I see that you changed the belly fans of the 4200G with 120mm ones. I'd like to do that too. But how about the current draw? Does a bigger replacement fan cause any issues with any sensors? (I do not know if this PJ has sensors which detect if a fan has failed)



The normal belly fans are powered at 20V, so you need to run a new set of wires to the tiny PSU fan and hook them up there.


The PSU fan runs at 12V and has a regulator (7812 afaik) of its own that it shares with the powerled.


There is no fan sensors and they draw very little current anyway, so I had no issues changing them.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> *Question 2*
> 
> Also do you really have to take everything out of the the chasis and disassmble it completely (like the pictures on your website) to enlarge the hole for the 120MM fans?



Yes, everything must come apart to enlarge the holes otherwise you risk getting metal filings in the electronics and you don't want that.


Don't sweat taking it apart, it's very easy to do and you will probably want to take the tubes out anyway to change the glycol.


Other than not having a dog or small children in the room while doing it I'd say that there are two things that you need to be careful with: Handling the tubes and getting every single plug attached before starting it up again.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For more air-flow, did you consider adding fans where you made 4 holes (on the top of the case?)



That could be done, but I got a nice result from just putting in vents, I want to keep the noise down and I don't think you can fit any fans on the inside of the lid.


If you find the convergence tray to be too hot even after adding vents, you can probably fix it by using gruntier bellyfans, I used the quietest (and most wimpy) fans I could get my hands on.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is no "save" function. All adjustments are saved in the "channel" that they were made in. If the battery voltage is really 0.38V like you measured, the battery is shot. Strange things are gonna happen.



Thanks tse,

I just ordered the battery from Allied Electronics.








https://www.alliedelec.com/Search/Pr...&DESC=LTC%2D7P 


Around $15 + shipping. Strangely their website does not show the shipping costs. I even called them up, the lady told me that even she has no way to know the shipping costs!


----------



## rajdude

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Dion^Swamp*
The normal belly fans are powered at 20V, so you need to run a new set of wires to the tiny PSU fan and hook them up there.


The PSU fan runs at 12V and has a regulator (7812 afaik) of its own that it shares with the powerled.


There is no fan sensors and they draw very little current anyway, so I had no issues changing them.
Hmm, as the power supply already has issues with heat and possibly overloading, I may want to hook up the 12 volt fans to the existing 20 V wires. I will just use a 7812 on a tiny PCB OR maybe a simple power resistor will do too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Dion^Swamp*
Yes, everything must come apart to enlarge the holes otherwise you risk getting metal filings in the electronics and you don't want that.


Don't sweat taking it apart, it's very easy to do and you will probably want to take the tubes out anyway to change the glycol.


Other than not having a dog or small children in the room while doing it I'd say that there are two things that you need to be careful with: Handling the tubes and getting every single plug attached before starting it up again.
*About taking it apart...*

Well, I am REALLY worried about all those connections and me leaving one disconnected by accident and ruining the tubes or the electronics










Plus all the time involved in dismantling and putting it back CAREFULLY.


I will think of another way, but I have to do the glycol too...









Do you really have to take out the tubes for changing the glycol?

*About changing the glycol*

Yes, I do need to change to glycol. I found a doc with some pretty elaborate instructions. I doubt if all this needs to be done to just change to glycol. Please have a look at the attachment here and let me know how it compares with what you did to change to glycol.


(I am really concerned about all the cutting described in the doc)


I am assuming all we need to do is to open the screws and drain out the glycol and put it back it, right?

Why the Silicon caulk and all that cutting??

 

CRT fluid change.doc 29.5k . file


----------



## rajdude

Guys,

Where can I find the glycol locally?? ( I am in Northern Virginia)

Any chain stores, Radioshack?


Otherwise, I see it at MCM:
http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebComme...KU=20-2041&N=0 


Is this the right one?


-Rajiv


----------



## Dion^Swamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmm, as the power supply already has issues with heat and possibly overloading, I may want to hook up the 12 volt fans to the existing 20 V wires. I will just use a 7812 on a tiny PCB OR maybe a simple power resistor will do too.



That's a bit silly, the 7812 that regulates power for the PSU fan doesn't do any other work, it will not mind an extra 200mA.


Your PSU is not overloaded, but it's not being ventilated very well, so a better fan and more holes are a good idea.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, I am REALLY worried about all those connections and me leaving one disconnected by accident and ruining the tubes or the electronics



Don't worry, it's not all that bad, most connectors are impossible to plug in wrong (unless you try) and all you need to do is to go over every connection twice before turning it on again.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Plus all the time involved in dismantling and putting it back CAREFULLY.



You don't have to be that careful, if you have ever worked with a PC you know all you need to, don't use any violence and be careful with the tubes and you will do fine.


Remember: These machines are built to be taken apart a lot












> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I will think of another way



Please don't to make the holes you really need to manhandle the chassis, so leaving any electronics or the tubes in the there is a bad idea.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you really have to take out the tubes for changing the glycol?



Yes, this is what I did (for each tube):

1) Remove lenses (the 3 hex bolts)

2) Remove all connections to tube/neck including the neckboard.

3) Unscrew the long bolts that are used to lock the tube for toe-in.

4) Unscrew the top and bottom pivot bolts.

5) Carefully pull the tube out the front, taking care not to hit anything with the the neck.


6) Open the top plate that covers the expansion bellows.

7) Let rubber soak in bleach and scrub with a plastic brush.

8) Discard glycol.


9) Unmount c-element (remove screws and push on the inside of the element though the fill-hole), put it in soapy water and carefully wash it using nothing but your rubber gloves.


10) Put the tube on the edge of your sink and rinse/wash the inside of the champer and the tube-surface with a plastic brush and warm soapy water.


11) Once all three pieces are absolutely spotless rinse each in demineralized water.


12) Mount the c-element.


13) Fill chamber with bleach and let it soak for a while.


14) Rinse chamber a couple of times with demi-water.


15) Fill with glycol.


16) Mount bellows (I had to use some drops of glue to keep it aligned while mounting the plate).


17) Reverse the mounting procedure and repeat for the rest of the tubes.


The cleaning of the LC chamber takes lots of water and detergents that you don't want anywhere near electionics.


You need to clean the insides of the chamber , changing the glycol is not enough.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, I do need to change to glycol. I found a doc with some pretty elaborate instructions.Why
> 
> the Silicon caulk and all that cutting??



Forget about it, there is no chaulking or cutting involved, the Ampros use a different scheimpflug system than the normal HD10 setup, on the Ampro the LC champer is fixed to the tube and the rest of the optics is flapping around.


On normal HD10 systems the LC chamber is deformed to provide scheimpflug.


----------



## Ray Cendroski

Like Dion said, changing the fluid is pretty easy. You don't need to take the tubes out:


- Just take the lenses off.

- Take top plate off top of each Liquid Coupled tank.

- Siphon out old fluid until it is below the bottom edge of the C element face.

- Unbolt C element to gain access to tube face. The screws can be very tight. Use a proper fitting allen wrench and go slowly so you don't strip the heads.

- Clean everything multiple times and re-assemble. I only clean the C element with soap and water by hand. I use a soft "t" shirt to dry. Be careful, the C elements are easy to scuff and scratch.


I get my fluid from:

http://www.mcmelectronics.com 


Do a search for crt coolant 20-4275. It takes a 16 oz can per tube.


Attached is a picture of my 4200 when I recently changed the fluid. The tubes were like new when I got it, and 5 years of heavy use later, they still look like new.


Ray


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dion^Swamp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's a bit silly, the 7812 that regulates power for the PSU fan doesn't do any other work, it will not mind an extra 200mA.
> 
> 
> Your PSU is not overloaded, but it's not being ventilated very well, so a better fan and more holes are a good idea.



Ok, that sounds good. I thought that 7812 is supplying power to other circuits too. I shoud have looked at the schematic first. Thanks 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dion^Swamp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Don't worry, it's not all that bad, most connectors are impossible to plug in wrong (unless you try) and all you need to do is to go over every connection twice before turning it on again.
> 
> 
> You don't have to be that careful, if you have ever worked with a PC you know all you need to, don't use any violence and be careful with the tubes and you will do fine.
> 
> 
> Remember: These machines are built to be taken apart a lot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't to make the holes you really need to manhandle the chassis, so leaving any electronics or the tubes in the there is a bad idea.



Yes, I work with PCs (servers, mostly) for a living and have been an avid electronics hobbist. Although I have not done any major projects for the past 5 years but I am sure I am not that rusty.










Hey Dion, your words give me confidence. Thanks! I will take the tubes out and photo-document everything on my website and on this thread.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dion^Swamp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, this is what I did (for each tube):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7) Let rubber soak in bleach and scrub with a plastic brush.
> 
> 
> snip
> 
> 
> 11) Once all three pieces are absolutely spotless rinse each in demineralized water.
> 
> 
> snip
> 
> 
> 13) Fill chamber with bleach and let it soak for a while.


*Quick Questions:-*


1. Why use bleach on rubber?


2. Is it to kill the fungus?


3. Is demineralized water the same thing as distilled water?


4. The local pharmacy has some distilled water, it is good enough?



Thanks again for all your help and tips!









-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Like Dion said, changing the fluid is pretty easy. You don't need to take the tubes out:
> 
> 
> - Just take the lenses off.
> 
> - Take top plate off top of each Liquid Coupled tank.
> 
> - Siphon out old fluid until it is below the bottom edge of the C element face.
> 
> - Unbolt C element to gain access to tube face. The screws can be very tight. Use a proper fitting allen wrench and go slowly so you don't strip the heads.
> 
> - Clean everything multiple times and re-assemble. I only clean the C element with soap and water by hand. I use a soft "t" shirt to dry. Be careful, the C elements are easy to scuff and scratch.
> 
> 
> I get my fluid from:
> 
> http://www.mcmelectronics.com
> 
> 
> Do a search for crt coolant 20-4275. It takes a 16 oz can per tube.
> 
> 
> Attached is a picture of my 4200 when I recently changed the fluid. The tubes were like new when I got it, and 5 years of heavy use later, they still look like new.
> 
> 
> Ray



Hi Ray,

Thanks for the tips. So changing the coolant seems pretty straightforward.


On MCM I can see the coolant you used. I also see another one from Rite Off ...
http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebComme...KU=20-2041&N=0 


Description:

_MCM Part No.: 20-2041

Manufacturer: null


Description: CRT COOLANT 24 OZ. Green Tree Chemical Technologies Inc Projection TV CRT Coolant, Size: 24 oz, Replaces: Magnavox #4835-310-57233 and RCA #212072, Features: High purity optional grade projection TV heat transfer fluid, Quantity: 24 cans per case_

*Is this any better?*

The words "Optical grade" makes it more attractive to me and also it is a 24 oz can.


But, on the other hand Techspray is a big company too and has a good website. I could not find any website for Rite Off or Green Tree Chemical Tech.


Actually MCM has coolants from RCA and philips too.


Oh my god, so many options!

















-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Dion and Ray (and others too),
*How much of a difference did changing the C elements to color corrected ones make to the image of an Ampro 4200G?*


I see lots of people doing this but how come the same C elements work well for all picture tubes?


Don't the guns have different shades of green and red and hence need different shades of C elements?

















Or maybe the tubes are all the same??? naaah










-Rajiv


----------



## Dion^Swamp

The C-element is a part of the complete optical package, so for all HD10 optics you will have the same shape of C-element.


For the HD10 optics there are 3 different colors of C-element: Clear, Red and Green.


I can't really tell if there was much difference in adding the red c-element and the green one had to be changed because it was cooked.


HD10 optics are used for many different 8" and 9" tubes.


----------



## Dion^Swamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1. Why use bleach on rubber?
> 
> 2. Is it to kill the fungus?
> 
> 3. Is demineralized water the same thing as distilled water?
> 
> 4. The local pharmacy has some distilled water, it is good enough?



The bleach is for killing whatever might be living in the glycol, it's what the decontamination procedure from Ampro calls for.


demi-water is just water whith the minerals removed, distilled water is even cleaner, it's cheaper than distilled water though, but for this use either will do.


----------



## Clarence




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dion and Ray (and others too),
> 
> I see lots of people doing this but how come the same C elements work well for all picture tubes?
> 
> 
> Don't the guns have different shades of green and red and hence need different shades of C elements?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe the tubes are all the same???



The 9" tubes might be different, but the 9" HD-10 lenses and their c-elements are the same.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dion^Swamp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The C-element is a part of the complete optical package, so for all HD10 optics you will have the same shape of C-element.
> 
> 
> For the HD10 optics there are 3 different colors of C-element: Clear, Red and Green.



My understanding is that there are actually 2 shades of Green c-elements... the original Sony G90 green, and the darker Marquee HD10 green. I'm replacing my G90 green with the deeper shade Marquee HD10 green... it's supposed to help the resulting colorimetry track closer to reference.


----------



## Dion^Swamp

Yep, that's true, my old 4200 green element was a tad darker than the new one I got, I don't know that PJ it came out of though.


----------



## rajdude

Guys,

thanks for the info.


I believe all three elements in my 4200 are absolutely clear.


I am still waiting for the battery to arrive in the mail and only after I replace it, it will be worth working on it. I'm gonna start shopping for the ceiling mounts soon. The whole weekend was spent fencing the front yard. Way too much hard work, I tell you










-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Update:

I ordered the glycol from MCM...

MCM Part No.: 20-2041

http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebComme...KU=20-2041&N=0 


It is supposed to come in tomorrow. I'm planning to just replace the glycol and see how it looks. If the PJ displays reds as orange-ish, I'll order the C-elements.


Clarence, Please keep us updated about the color improvements after you put in the C-elements on your G-90


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Ok folks,

I received the battery from Allied Electronics yesterday. I installed it yesterday night and I'm a happy camper! All the menus are working properly now (touch wood). The PJ holds the memory. The startup glitch (where I had to switch the PJ on-off at least once so that the name shows up on the LCD remote) is gone. It just says Ampro 4200G every time I power it up, Hooray!

*For your information*

I used the battery change procedure as described by Curt on his site:
http://www.curtpalme.com/Ampro1500.htm 

Worked like a charm!


I did not get time to do the convergence on the PJ last night, but I will do that tonight. I will be using a HTPC as my primary source. Phillips test pattern generator is my choice for the test patterns for convergence and other stuff.

*Question for you guys:*

*Should I do the convergence while running the HTPC at 1080P (actually 1920x1440) or 720p (actually 1280x1024)? OR does it even matter?*


Thanks for reading and posting answers here, I appreciate all your help!

-Rajiv


----------



## Dion^Swamp

Yes, you will need to redo all of the electronic setup, including convergence, for each mode you want to use.


The best solution is to use the actual source for the setup as there are other important parameters than the resolution (hsync, vsync, front/backporch and v blanking period).


----------



## Z-Photo

R-


Glad that it was something simple....


enjoy


----------



## phooka

I'd sahy do 720p or 1080i first and get those dialed in. 1080p will be harder to get dialed. With 720p and 1080i you should be able to get visible scanlines at a few inches from the screen no problem. Once you have a feel for the Ampro, and a couple of setups done, the go for 1080p.


Also wait it you get the fans upgraded and the glycol changed before putting the time to get 1080p setup in.


Also given the HTPC is really and external pattern generator for you, skip the "guided" setup in the help menu and just follow the steps in the Service Manual. I find the "guided" setup a PITA and you are stuck with the genlocked internal test patterns for everything but the phase, blanking, and size.


good luck


--

NIck


----------



## rajdude

*Quick Questions:*


What is the Black level Clamp point {48-CODE} ?

What should I set it to?

What does Sync Tip or Back Porch mean?


----------



## tse

Sync tip clamp is generally used for four or five wire input. (RGBHV)


Back porch clamp is generally used with sync on green or three wire input.


If the picture turns real green when in sync tip clamp mode, switch to back porch.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sync tip clamp is generally used for four or five wire input. (RGBHV)
> 
> 
> Back porch clamp is generally used with sync on green or three wire input.
> 
> 
> If the picture turns real green when in sync tip clamp mode, switch to back porch.




Thanks tse,

that helps !


I wonder why it defaults to the back porch. dont we all use RGBHV. Who has sync on green?


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Hello guys,

I made some good progress yesterday night. I did the convergence almost all the way through. I am having some issues and would appreciate if you can help me out here:-

*Issue # 1 I cannot use anything above 1024x768.*


If I set my HTPC to anything above that resolution I have weird problems. I should have taken a picture but could not find my tripod. I will take pics tonight. But anyway let me describe.










The bottom and the right side of the image gets screwed up at higher resolutions. When I put on the Philips test pattern ( I am using this exclusively) at full screen the right side border is not displayed. The vertical lines at the bottom one foot of the screen start dancing left-right. Here is the strangest thing. Even with the Test Pattern at full screen mode, I see the windows task bar!





















Yes, the bar at the bottom of the screen where we see the start button on the leftmost side that the time clock on the rightmost side. I first thought that there is something wrong with my VGA card so I hooked up the CRT monitor, everything is fine!











Oh, one more thing 1280x960 works fine. But the circles are then ovals.


Any tips?









I am using a cheap 6 feet long VGA to 5-BNC cable to feed the PJ now.









*Issue # 2 some of the dynamic settings are at max or near max*

I have to set the dynamic left keystone to the max, even then the left side is not 100% vertical. It is like 95% vertical. The right side is fine.


I notice that some other setting are also close to max, like 90 or 85.


So two questions here:

Is this putting extreme strain on the convergence circuits?

Any solution / alternative.


Of course I have done the static adjustments first. If I toggle the registration on-off the center does not wiggle.

*Issue # 3 Is it OK to use phase adjustments to center the image on the raster?*

I am close to max on the horizontal phase.

*Issue # 4 Will feeding resolutions or refresh rates higher than the PJ can display damage it?*

Yesterday I tried to feed more than 1920x1440, I guess it was like 2040 x something. I PJ just became blank. I got scared and pulled the power plug. Later when windows went back to the lower rez, I plugged the PJ back in and it worked fine. Same thing happened with refresh rates higher than 85 Hz.


Did I cause any damage?









*Issue # 5 No Video on startup.*

When I power on the PJ and feed it a RGBHV input via my HTPC, it does not show anything on the screen. The screen is blank. I try to change channels, change sources put up test patterns and turn them off.nothing happens.


The ONLY way to get video is to start the HELP system and then get out of the HELP menu. Thereafter the video comes up. Why? Any solution to this issue?



Thanks for reading through all this text and all your tips/inputs.









-Rajiv


----------



## Clarence

It handled 1680x1050 fine from my laptop... that's the closest resolution my laptop had to 1080p.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It handled 1680x1050 fine from my laptop... that's the closest resolution my laptop had to 1080p.



Oh yes,

It does Display an image all the way up to 1920x1440. Its just that it is distorted at the bottom and the right side is clipped off.










-Rajiv


----------



## Clarence

Are you sure that your video card has been enabled for max res? Usually the default max is something like 1280x1024 and any res above that will clip the extra pixels or give a scrolling desktop when you mouse over to that side.


What video card are you using?


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you sure that your video card has been enabled for max res?



AFAIK there no such thing on my PC.

Note: I am using a regular PC, not a laptop.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Usually the default max is something like 1280x1024 and any res above that will clip the extra pixels or give a scrolling desktop when you mouse over to that side.



Hmm, I have see that happen ONLY on LCD panels (and laptops) which (as WE all know are fixed pixel devices) Hence the scrolling desktop!


CRT monitors, on the other hand, will either sync up with the higher resolution and show the image OR just show a blank screen with or without an error message, something like "input out of range"


When I hook up my CRT monitor to the PC, the desktop shows up fine, The patterns are 100% accurate, no distortion and clipping at the sides.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What video card are you using?



I am using an onboard video card on an Intel D865GBFL motherboard. See it here...
http://www.intel.com/products/mother...5gbf/index.htm 


I also have an old nvidia geForce MX440 with 64 MB RAM. That one is not able to show smooth 1080p, so I took it out of my HTPC and resorted to using the onboard video. The onboard video system shows 1080p quite smoothly, but the frame rate is like 19 fps. Shouldn't it be a full 24 fps?


At this point, I do not think there is anything wrong with the video card since it displays a good accurate image on my CRT monitor.


-Rajiv


----------



## Clarence

If the card is displaying a resolution properly on a monitor then the 4200 should be able to handle it too.


----------



## rajdude

A few hrs left before I work on the PJ again. I hope to finish the convergence tonight so that we can FINALLY watch something on the beast on the weekend.

Any tips for my issues?


-Rajiv


----------



## tse

Alot of monitors have an on screen display that will tell the horizontal and vertical sync frequencies. It might help to check what those resolutions are running at. The projector should tell the same story by entering 36 and code on the remote control. Check and see what your 30 code says when it's not displaying a picture.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Alot of monitors have an on screen display that will tell the horizontal and vertical sync frequencies. It might help to check what those resolutions are running at. The projector should tell the same story by entering 36 and code on the remote control. Check and see what your 30 code says when it's not displaying a picture.




tse,

(what's your real name?) A 30-CODE says "everything is fine". A 36 -code says 48xxx. (xxx are some numbers I do not remember. I think my HTPC is set to 50 Hz refresh rate.


It still behaves the same. I HAVE to put on the help menu and shut it downin order to get the PJ to display video. Otherwise the screen is blank.



Well I see no takers for this thread other than tse. (thanks tse). I will post another thread specifically for this problem.


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

So, last weekend we watched our first movie on the Ampro. something about Jerusalem and history,....I forgot the name.


The PJ put out a very good picture. At the starting the pic was too dark, then I had to tweak the Mediaplayer Classic's contrast, brigtness and saturation to achieve a watchable image.


At this point I have not done any calibration on it, not even a DVE or AVIA type thing. Actually some relatives were over ours and they were rooting for a demo of the beast










I noticed one thing, the heatsink on the convergence board gets way too hot !







I measured a steady 129 F on it.

















I have a wired indoor/outdoor type thermometer for the PJ. That heatsink gets no air via convection! The fins are vertical but there are no holes/openings are the bottom of the heatsink. No airflow!


I'll say it is a bad design if those Power Op-Amps have to dissipate so much heat.


I'm ordering some silent fans today and Ill do the fan mods as Dion did.


Thanks for reading!

-Rajiv


----------



## Clarence

Congrats, Rajiv. I'll have to come see it soon.


Did you replace the glycol? In all tubes or just the worst one(s)?

Did you replace the c-element(s) or just clean them?

What resolution did you end up at? What sources? What screen and size?

Did you build the unistrut ceiling mount?


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Congrats, Rajiv. I'll have to come see it soon.
> 
> 
> Did you replace the glycol? In all tubes or just the worst one(s)?
> 
> Did you replace the c-element(s) or just clean them?
> 
> What resolution did you end up at? What sources? What screen and size?
> 
> Did you build the unistrut ceiling mount?



Hi Clarence,

sorry for the delay, no time for working on the PJ. I'm sure you will be dissapointed by my replied here...


No I did not replace the Glycol yet. I do have the bottles, though.


No I did not replace the C-elements either


I ran it a 1024x768 from a HTPC. I have a 64"x48" da-lite screen .It is portable with 2.2 gain. I need to replace it. Why so small...well the room is not too wide and my speakers take up too much space.


No I did not build the unistrut yet. It is just setup on a wooden box.



Of course no one in the family wants to watch it. I really need to set it up properly. Now only if I can get the outdoor projects done before winter really sets in
























Cheers!

Rajiv


----------



## Clarence

When you get around to it, I have the old green c-element from my G90. It had a slight scratch on it that cast a shadow onto the phosphor when I shined a flashlight through the lens. I'm not sure how much the scratch impacts the projected image, but you're welcomed to it for free if you want to replace your Ampro's clear c-element when you defungus it and change the glycol.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When you get around to it, I have the old green c-element from my G90. It had a slight scratch on it that cast a shadow onto the phosphor when I shined a flashlight through the lens. I'm not sure how much the scratch impacts the projected image, but you're welcomed to it for free if you want to replace your Ampro's clear c-element when you defungus it and change the glycol.




Thanks Clarence, I'll take it.










so when is the open house?










-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

OK Folks,

I FINALLY made some progress yesterday evening. I cut open the ceiling to hang the PJ. I will post the pics soon, I could not find the CF card reader today.










I am counting on the Ampro SIP program for the distancee to the screen. I have also double checked it by projecting an image onto the screen, I think it is fairly accurate. I have to use the smallest screen setting the program will allow - 72 inches. The room is too small.


I have an issue though..

*How do I max out the image on the raster?*


Even when I have maxed out the image width setting on the remote control of my Ampro, the image is still not maxed out on the raster....around half an inch remains dark on th sides. What to do ?











Please help!


-Rajiv


----------



## alan halvorson




> Quote:
> I have to use the smallest screen setting the program will allow - 72 inches.



Is that 72" wide or diagonal?


----------



## Ray Cendroski

Rajiv,


There is a "Width" pot on the HOT board that will help. That's the large board mounted on the right side of the projector. It's just to the left and below the input fuse on the upper right side of the board.


Ray


----------



## Z-Photo

Amazing how an Ampro makes grown men cry - just like women.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Z-Photo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Amazing how an Ampro makes grown men cry - just like women.



Yep, when you see one set up correctly, the image just brings tears to your eyes










Chip


----------



## Z-Photo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yep, when you see one set up correctly, the image just brings tears to your eyes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chip




Will have to see it to believe it.


I mean a working Ampro that is .


----------



## Ray Cendroski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *StealthZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will have to see it to believe it.
> 
> 
> I mean a working Ampro that is .




My Ampro 4200 has been cranking out glorius movies on a 10.5' wide screen for over 4 years with nary a hitch. I love my Ampro(s)....


Ray


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alan halvorson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is that 72" wide or diagonal?




Hi Alan,

It is 72 " wide.


I know some people will tell me...why bother with a front CRT PJ with such a small screen...just get a CRT RPTV and be done with it !!

HA HA !


Well these things are fun right?


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Rajiv,
> 
> 
> There is a "Width" pot on the HOT board that will help. That's the large board mounted on the right side of the projector. It's just to the left and below the input fuse on the upper right side of the board.
> 
> 
> Ray




Thanks for the tip , Ray.


Hey I remember it has been discussed here, but looks like it is a bad idea to adjust that pot. I guess it makes the PJ run hotter and it may fail or become unreliable. UNLESS the neckboard heatsinks are NOT running hot (am I getting it right?)

*What is your take on that?*


I guess by this time you have had a lot of experience running your PJ with maxed out rasters? I'd like to know a "long term testers" opinion on this.


Also, other people's comments?


Rajiv


----------



## danstone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, other people's comments?



Ray's info is always extremely helpful, and Walter Allen from Ampro has also stated that he would recommend maxing out the rasters on the Ampro just as with any other CRT PJ. I've noticed the same thing being posted here repeatedly, however, regarding the seeming lack of capability on the Ampros to max out the raster without using the width pot. As we've seen posted repeatedly, primarily in NEC threads, adjusting the width pot frequently causes problems often leading to a component failure shortly after. Since tse used to work at the Ampro factory, I'd be very interested in hearing any feedback they can offer on all of this. Hopefully a missing piece or two of the puzzle may come to light.


----------



## rajdude

so I went to Lowes to buy parts for the ceiling mount yesterday night. I was surprised I spent 2 hrs trying to find all the various nuts and bolts and washers there!







I go the grade 8 ones..hardened and looks like they can take a good load.

*Anyway, I am curious how much load can these bolts (5/16"-18) can hold.


Are they strong enough? Look pretty tiny to me!*










They are the ones which screw right into the chasis of the PJ at the bottom. There are only 4 of them (although I see 4 more 2 of which do not align properly and 2 are at the extreme rear of the PJ)

*Others, are you using just these 4 bolts to hang the PJ?*


----------



## Z-Photo

R-


It is funny how often this comes up. But yes most of the PJ I have seen have only 4 tiny screws attaching the rail to the case.


These screws are in tension and are rated (Annealed 304SS is 95K psi) for a lot more than the PJ weighs.


Honestly the threads in the aluminum frame will fail first.


Pete


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Z-Photo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> R-
> 
> 
> It is funny how often this comes up. But yes most of the PJ I have seen have only 4 tiny screws attaching the rail to the case.
> 
> 
> These screws are in tension and are rated (Annealed 304SS is 95K psi) for a lot more than the PJ weighs.
> 
> 
> Honestly the threads in the aluminum frame will fail first.
> 
> 
> Pete



HI Pete,

Thanks.....Now I am trying to understand what kip means so that I can visualize it in lyman's terms....something like ....."how much load can this take before it breaks"


from www.onlineconversion.com I see that

for grade 1 bolts 60 kip/square inch = 30 ton/square inch [short]

for grade 8 bolts 150 kip/square inch = 75 ton/square inch [short]


(I can get grade 8 bolts in Lowes.)


Bolt ratings taken from http://www.unified-eng.com/scitech/bolt/boltmarks.html 


So if I calculate the cross-sectional area of this 9/16" bolt it is around 0.24" so does it mean that it will take 18 tons on this bolt to shear it!


Sounds wrong to me ! How come such a tiny bolt be shear-load rated at around 18 tons !










Unless my math is all wrong (most likely)


-Rajiv


Ps I agree that those threads will fail first!


----------



## Z-Photo

R-


You should see what high strength steel will do.....










The cross sectional is actually a bit smaller and there are load knock downs due to the machining of the threads.


That is not the shear load it is the ultimate tensile load - the bolt (assembly) will fail before that. meaning that the threads will elongated and fail.


regardless - the bolts will sustain a significant load - much more that the static weight of the ampro....


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *danstone* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ray's info is always extremely helpful, and Walter Allen from Ampro has also stated that he would recommend maxing out the rasters on the Ampro just as with any other CRT PJ. I've noticed the same thing being posted here repeatedly, however, regarding the seeming lack of capability on the Ampros to max out the raster without using the width pot. As we've seen posted repeatedly, primarily in NEC threads, adjusting the width pot frequently causes problems often leading to a component failure shortly after. Since tse used to work at the Ampro factory, I'd be very interested in hearing any feedback they can offer on all of this. Hopefully a missing piece or two of the puzzle may come to light.




guys, tse, anyone???

I am still looking for input on whether I should touch that width pot or not.


At this point I have almost 0.75 inch or more of unused tube at right and left sides.


I do not want to beat a dead horse but if anyone has a good experience running an Ampro at full width...I'll appreciate hearing from him....actually otherwise too.


Thanks

Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When you get around to it, I have the old green c-element from my G90. It had a slight scratch on it that cast a shadow onto the phosphor when I shined a flashlight through the lens. I'm not sure how much the scratch impacts the projected image, but you're welcomed to it for free if you want to replace your Ampro's clear c-element when you defungus it and change the glycol.




Hi Clarence,

I had the lenses off and noticed that maybe the PJ already has a green C element. Or is the Glycol colored? Anyway, the green tube sure does appear green in color.


Does that mean that I do not need a green C-element ?


OR do these c-elements vary (in color or color-density)


Thanks

Rajiv


----------



## Clarence

AFAIK, there are 4 c-elements:

- clear

- dark green (Marquee)

- lighter green (Sony)

- red


The lighter green is brighter, but the darker green is truer. I replaced my G90's light green with the darker green.


I'm guessing the Ampro has the lighter green (which would be the same as the one I can give to you).


The only CRTs that I can recall with OEM colored glycol is the ECP. You can't use colored glycol with LC because the depth of the glycol chamber isn't the same across the surface of the lense.


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> guys, tse, anyone???
> 
> I am still looking for input on whether I should touch that width pot or not.
> 
> 
> At this point I have almost 0.75 inch or more of unused tube at right and left sides.
> 
> 
> I do not want to beat a dead horse but if anyone has a good experience running an Ampro at full width...I'll appreciate hearing from him....actually otherwise too.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rajiv



Messing with the pot can be ok or not. It depends on a few things.


First, is the picture alot smaller than the raster? If the raster is alot wider then you need to change the retrace time.


What are you using for a video source and what resolution are you running?


Which HOT board do you have? It's the one far to the right that is bolted to the chassis. Is it like more than a foot long or less?


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> AFAIK, there are 4 c-elements:
> 
> - clear
> 
> - dark green (Marquee)
> 
> - lighter green (Sony)
> 
> - red
> 
> 
> The lighter green is brighter, but the darker green is truer. I replaced my G90's light green with the darker green.
> 
> 
> I'm guessing the Ampro has the lighter green (which would be the same as the one I can give to you).
> 
> 
> The only CRTs that I can recall with OEM colored glycol is the ECP. You can't use colored glycol with LC because the depth of the glycol chamber isn't the same across the surface of the lense.




Thanks for the info Clarence.

Hey, if I post a pic of the green C element can you tell me if it it the light green or the dark green one?


I just do not want to order a green c-element if I really don't need it.


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Thanks for responding here tse! I will try to answer all your questions...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First, is the picture alot smaller than the raster? If the raster is alot wider then you need to change the retrace time.



Not too sure about this one, I will check the raster tonight and report back. At this point all I know is that the image is pretty small in width. at 1024x768 I have around an inch of black space on the left and right sides.


That black space increases if I feed it 1920 x 1440.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What are you using for a video source and what resolution are you running?



I am using a HTPC and trying to set it up for two resolutions:

1024 x 768 and

1920 x 1440

Both at 60 Hz refresh (for starters)


I also have a DVDO Ultra, which outputs only 480p. With that rez too there is a lot of black space on the sides. The master image width is maxed out.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Which HOT board do you have? It's the one far to the right that is bolted to the chassis. Is it like more than a foot long or less?



I will check it tonight and post a pic too.


Thanks again!

Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

On my PJ I do not see any scan lines at almost any resolution (not tried 640x480 yet). I have tried focusing (both optical and EM), setting astigmatism, beam centeringeverything but the image is still not sharp.


Also while doing the stig, I get triangular blobsnot perfectly round. If I defocus the beam (electromagnetically) AND adjust the 2-pole and 4 pole CPC magnets.then at one position of the CPC magnets I can get a reasonably round blob. But then the bright dot is at a corner!!


Does this mean my stig is way off, right? How do I get it right?


No matter which way I twist and turn the CPC magnets the bright dot does not want to come in the center of the blob. It just remains in the corner.




Later, when I focus the beam again I get little triangles with a bright round dot which I can position in the center of the triangle using the CPC magnets.


I do not see any scan lines at 1024 x 768. But the image is reasonable. At 1920 x 1440 the image is very soft. I can't read any text on the screen.


Please help me!



Here is my setup:

PJ = Ampro 4200G

Source = HTPC

Rez = 1024 x 768 and 1920 x 1440 @ 60 Hz

Image = Nokia test pattern (dots)


Thanks in advance

Rajiv


----------



## John Alison

Until an expert wades in:


1920x1440 is pushing it. 1024x768 seems sensible.


With respect to focussing- turn the contrast down and look into the lenses. This will get rid of optical issues and enable you to see what the spot size is doing (without being over driven).


----------



## rajdude

John,

I was trying to set it up for 1920 x 1440 for 1080p.

I calculate that the 4:3 version of 1080p is this resolution, right?


What do others here feed the PJ is they want to display 1080p?

Do they feed straight 1920 x 1080 to the PJ ???


Rajiv


----------



## mtmelvin

Hey Rajiv-


I have seen posts in the past about triangular "dots," and I believe this is normal for some projectors. I have some across this a few times also. The bright dot should definitely be in the center.


Did you set the electronic (static and dynamic) focus and astig to zero before you started playing with the magnets?


You're using a 4:3 resolution, are you using a 4:3 screen? I also seem to remember that you screen is very small, which might explain why you're not seeing scan lines.


There's no shame in trying a lower resolution until you see scan lines. You might leaern something about your set-up in the process. Try 480i direct from a DVD player (S-video even!?) and if you still don't see scan lines then you know something's wrong.


There's no sense trying to push the projector to the max if it's not adjusted properly, it will just end up looking horribly soft.


Good luck.


-Mark


----------



## rajdude

Hi Mark, You are up early! it is like 6 AM in Cali, right?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have seen posts in the past about triangular "dots," and I believe this is normal for some projectors. I have some across this a few times also. The bright dot should definitely be in the center.



So, I guess this PJ will always display triangular dots?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Did you set the electronic (static and dynamic) focus and astig to zero before you started playing with the magnets?




I had set the focus to 50 isn't it the same as zero on these PJs? Or do I have to set it to actual zero value. I do not see any code to set astig using the remote on my PJ. Do you know the code for that?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You're using a 4:3 resolution, are you using a 4:3 screen? I also seem to remember that you screen is very small, which might explain why you're not seeing scan lines.




Yes I am using a 4:3 screen because I plan to watch TV & 4:3 format video content on this PJ.

You remember correctly, my screen is only 6 ft wide.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There's no shame in trying a lower resolution until you see scan lines. You might leaern something about your set-up in the process. Try 480i direct from a DVD player (S-video even!?) and if you still don't see scan lines then you know something's wrong.




Good point. I will try it out this way.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There's no sense trying to push the projector to the max if it's not adjusted properly, it will just end up looking horribly soft.
> 
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> 
> -Mark




Gee, Thanks!

-Rajiv


----------



## John Alison

If you want to have a bash at 1920x1080p, then that'll be 16:9 by default. i.e. a squeezed raster. No point in using 1440p at 4:3.


If you're using 4:3, then that implies SDTV resolutions. In which case around 720p is a good option.


Have a read through the FAQs on crtprojectors.co.uk


----------



## kal

You'll always get some form of triangulation on your dots if you only have 2/4 magnets to play with. You need 6-pole like on the Barco Cine 9 or the Sony G90 (and possibly a few others) to really get things perfectly circular.


That being said, I've only ever noticed this triangulation of the circles in the corners of the screen. I'm able to get the center area circular pretty well. (Did this last on my Zenith 1200 with 2/4 pole magnets and this is what I saw).


Kal


----------



## bruce can

I found that on my 9000 with six pole magnets along with stig control made a huge difference from a stock 9500 in getting rid of triangulation in the dots , I really noticed it on the focus .

I never really fully understood why until recently with all the recent posts on the advantages of six pole magnetics.


Thanks


Bruce


----------



## Person99

Hell, its an Ampro, be happy it is even working!










OK, you are not twisting the whole CPC assembly are you? You need to turn the knobs to adjust. Secondly, you only look at the center of the screen.


An easy way to check how good your astig is is to use the electronic focus to run between underfocus extreme and overfocus extreme. The dots should get bigger and fuzzier very smoothly with the brighter spot in the center. If the dot is doing a little dance as you run between under and over focus, then astig is bad.


Dave


----------



## cmjohnson

Get the CPC magnet assemblies with 2, 4, and 6 pole adjustments from VDC, Display Systems Division. NOT the tube rebuilding facility in LA.

www.vdcdisplaysystems.com 



They will help.


All the advice given so far is good. Follow it and it will help you.


CJ


----------



## stefuel

Now that you've gotten all this good advice, I'm going to guess that you have straight HD-10 lenses and you are projecting onto under a 100 inch screen. How am I doing so far. I'll also guess that if you look in through the lenses, you can see scan lines on the face of the tubes. Am I getting hot?


Chip


----------



## Clarence

HD10 can focus down to 78"w (up to 240"w)... Rajiv's screen is 72"w


----------



## Clarence

 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=46121 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6604752 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6522391


----------



## rajdude

HI tse,

Here is the image of my HOT board


Please let me know how to proceed. Thanks for your help










-Rajiv


PS: did not get time to check the raster today. Will do that tomorrow evening.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=46121
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6604752
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6522391



Clarence, Don't believe everything you read, especially where AmPro is involved.

Right Pete









I had this same problem with a 4000G with low hours. I could look down the lens and see big honkin scanlines at 768P but could not see them on the screen. I then tried 480P, still no luck. Realizing that it was a limitation of my room and screen size, I took it somewhere where I could set the lenses to mid point and just pull it back until it focussed. That turned out to be about 120 inches wide. I then fed it 768P again and bingo, super sharp scanlines. Some day I'll try it again on my small screen with a set of HD-10L's like my 4600HD has.


Chip


----------



## mtmelvin




rajdude said:


> Hi Mark, You are up early! it is like 6 AM in Cali, right?
> 
> 
> I'm always up this early on workdays... been up since 5 dude! The real concern is that I'm checking AVS before I go to work... shameful
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Chip may be on to something. Your screen is pretty dang small. That's the real reason I'm not using my 4600 right now. It begs for a bigger screen and my room won't accomodate it right now. Next house...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let us know what you find out with this pj.
> 
> 
> -Mark


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> HD10 can focus down to 78"w (up to 240"w)... Rajiv's screen is 72"w




Hmmmm... Very Interesting info, Clarence.


Strangely, my lenses focus just fine on a 72 " screen. When I say fine I mean the patterns and images are sharp. They just appear a little soft. If there was a 'capability' issue wont I be at the end of the 'travel' of the lenses and still the image wont be in focus....just like any lense arrangement....when you come to the end of the travel it wont focus aymore closer...you have to step back to get the image in focus.


Even on a 64" screen the focus is OK and I am not against the end 'stops'...I mean I still have a little travel left on the lense focus adjustment controls.


Furthermore, Ampro's SIP program accepts 72" screen width as the minimum. It takes into account which lens I have in the PJ and which PJ I have too.


Still the comments from everyone here worry me. Maybe I need some other lenses to get the scan lines?


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Very good advise from all here. I really appreciate it.THANKS











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cmjohnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Get the CPC magnet assemblies with 2, 4, and 6 pole adjustments from VDC, Display Systems Division. NOT the tube rebuilding facility in LA.
> 
> 
> CJ



CJ, do you know how much these CPC magnet assemblies cost?


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> I had this same problem with a 4000G with low hours. I could look down the lens and see big honkin scanlines at 768P but could not see them on the screen. I then tried 480P, still no luck. Realizing that it was a limitation of my room and screen size, I took it somewhere where I could set the lenses to mid point and just pull it back until it focussed. That turned out to be about 120 inches wide. I then fed it 768P again and bingo, super sharp scanlines. Some day I'll try it again on my small screen with a set of HD-10L's like my 4600HD has.
> 
> 
> Chip



Chip, please tell me this....when you had the 4000G setup for the smaller screen did you get the image in focus?


I am also wondering that these lenses may not be good at near the end of their focus settings. It sure seems like from what you posted...."good scanlines at midpoint."


Is there any workaround since I cannot get such a big screen in my room.


-Rajiv


----------



## John Alison

Rajiv- for goodness sake look down your tubes with a pair of sunglasses and see if the scan lines are good. Once you're set up and happy there, then move on to the optics.


A problem is easiest dealt with once isolated and properly described.


----------



## stefuel

rajdude and mtmelvin, not to toot my own horn but I know for a fact that you would both benifit from the installation of HD-10L lenses with a AmPro and a screen of that size. mt, if that's the only thing keeping you from putting up your 4600, I have mine on a 72 in diag, not wide screen with HD-10L's and it's sharp as a tack.

I tried straight 10's, 10-GT17's and 10L's. 10L's gave me by far the best image on a small screen. No matter what HD lens we are talking about, you will find that the best optical focus will be at a point where the lens adjustment is at mid point.

Try as you will to perfect the electronics, you will never get a sharp image until you put on the correct lenses for the application. And that's all I'm going to say about it.


Chip


----------



## mtmelvin

Chip-

Thank you very much for your advice. My own situation is a little more complicated than that. I have pics in my gallery that help explain it. I never had a problem getting a sharp picture really, but in the ceiling mounted position my 4600 was too far away from my 80"wide screen. I've got an open beam ceiling which limits the mounting position options. I was having to crank the "width" control all the way down just to not overshoot the screen. The PJ was also a little high due to the height of the beam. The next closer beam would be too close. My only other options would be to put up some structure that would allow the pj to be between the beams AND lower at the same time. That sounds very ugly to me and I'm not going to do that. I could also move the screen closer, which I tried and I wasn't happy with that arrangement either.


I don't know if different lenses would help in my situation, and even if they did my pj would still be too high for the screen. It's my fault for putting it up there without doing more calculations. It's actually still up there and I've been meaning to take it down.


When I used it on the floor, it was actually at an ok distance, but as a coffee table it was just too big for my room










Oh, and I've got the HVPS Restart thing going on too... another reason it lies dormant for now










Thanks again, Chip. Rajiv, I hope you have some success with that pj. Let us know your progress!


-Mark


----------



## rajdude

Mark,

I remember your room and I think you need "long throw" lenses. If anything like that exist for a CRT PJ. I know they are available for flashlight PJs.


Maybe one of those combinations of numbers mean HD10L or etc etc (from the table posted above by Clarence) mean it is a long throw lense.



-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> rajdude and mtmelvin, not to toot my own horn but I know for a fact that you would both benifit from the installation of HD-10L lenses with a AmPro and a screen of that size. mt, if that's the only thing keeping you from putting up your 4600, I have mine on a 72 in diag, not wide screen with HD-10L's and it's sharp as a tack.
> 
> I tried straight 10's, 10-GT17's and 10L's. 10L's gave me by far the best image on a small screen. No matter what HD lens we are talking about, you will find that the best optical focus will be at a point where the lens adjustment is at mid point.
> 
> Try as you will to perfect the electronics, you will never get a sharp image until you put on the correct lenses for the application. And that's all I'm going to say about it.
> 
> 
> Chip




Ok, Chip,

but how do I find HD10L lenses (I need just the lenses right?) ?


e-bay? or from someone here who is parting out an Ampro? Cost?


-Rajiv


PS: My wife will go ballistic if she find out that I need more parts ! She already despises the time I have to spend with this PJ to get it up and running!


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok, Chip,
> 
> but how do I find HD10L lenses (I need just the lenses right?) ?
> 
> 
> e-bay? or from someone here who is parting out an Ampro? Cost?
> 
> 
> -Rajiv
> 
> 
> PS: My wife will go ballistic if she find out that I need more parts ! She already despises the time I have to spend with this PJ to get it up and running!



I can't help the pMs. Your best bet is e-bay. I think there's a set on there now. If you don't get a set from a AmPro, you will have to do a simple mod to them to make them work The four small holes that are used to fasten the lens to the adapter plate need to be counter sunk. You will see what I mean if you remove one of the lense/adapter assemblies and remove one screw. Everyone else uses through hole mounting. Not AmPro.


Chip


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Chip-
> 
> Thank you very much for your advice. My own situation is a little more complicated than that. I have pics in my gallery that help explain it. I never had a problem getting a sharp picture really, but in the ceiling mounted position my 4600 was too far away from my 80"wide screen. I've got an open beam ceiling which limits the mounting position options. I was having to crank the "width" control all the way down just to not overshoot the screen. The PJ was also a little high due to the height of the beam. The next closer beam would be too close. My only other options would be to put up some structure that would allow the pj to be between the beams AND lower at the same time. That sounds very ugly to me and I'm not going to do that. I could also move the screen closer, which I tried and I wasn't happy with that arrangement either.
> 
> 
> I don't know if different lenses would help in my situation, and even if they did my pj would still be too high for the screen. It's my fault for putting it up there without doing more calculations. It's actually still up there and I've been meaning to take it down.
> 
> 
> When I used it on the floor, it was actually at an ok distance, but as a coffee table it was just too big for my room
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and I've got the HVPS Restart thing going on too... another reason it lies dormant for now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again, Chip. Rajiv, I hope you have some success with that pj. Let us know your progress!
> 
> 
> -Mark



Changing the lenses is not going to change the throw ratio, only the focal range. The size will remain the same. You should probably look into a 8500LC


Chip


----------



## Z-Photo

It is all Chips fault.


I think he has the ONLY correctly working Ampro (I had a real hard time typing that).

There must be a rule that only one is allowed to work properly at any given time.


R - to solve your problem I think you will have to break Chip's PJ...



















Pete


----------



## Javers




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok, Chip,
> 
> but how do I find HD10L lenses (I need just the lenses right?) ?
> 
> 
> e-bay? or from someone here who is parting out an Ampro? Cost?
> 
> 
> -Rajiv
> 
> 
> PS: My wife will go ballistic if she find out that I need more parts ! She already despises the time I have to spend with this PJ to get it up and running!



Don't suppose you ever come to the UK do you? The 9500LC I bought came with HD10L's, I'm aiming for a 90" wide screen (which is the max width MP recommended 10L's could do). I'm wondering if we could both benfit by doing a swap?


Jon


----------



## tse

 http://www.vdcdisplaysystems.com/pdf...Master__V2.pdf 


Table of lenses with screen sizes for the Marquee 9500. Shouldn't be too much different than the Ampros.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *StealthZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It is all Chips fault.
> 
> 
> I think he has the ONLY correctly working Ampro (I had a real hard time typing that).
> 
> There must be a rule that only one is allowed to work properly at any given time.
> 
> 
> R - to solve your problem I think you will have to break Chip's PJ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pete



That musta hurt










Chip


PS I have three perfectly working AmPro's


----------



## stefuel

It's not the projectors, it's the people who run (add an i and you get ruin) them










Chip


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> I was trying to set it up for 1920 x 1440 for 1080p.
> 
> I calculate that the 4:3 version of 1080p is this resolution, right?
> 
> 
> What do others here feed the PJ is they want to display 1080p?
> 
> Do they feed straight 1920 x 1080 to the PJ ???
> 
> 
> Rajiv



1920 x 1440 is definately pushing it. The 4200 is a middle generation projector and it can't do what the later generation projectors can do. Anything much over about 1000 lines is going to be less than optimal. Your max res will be about 1366 x 1024. That's progressive. If you go interlace then 1920 x 1080i will look fantastic. The 1280 x 720p HDTV mode will look excellent, too. Your projector is more than capable of displaying the best video available (that I can find, anyway).


----------



## mtmelvin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You should probably look into a 8500LC
> 
> 
> Chip



Hmmm... I've got an 8500, non LC. Close enough?


It's on the floor under my 4600HD










-Mark


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmmm... I've got an 8500, non LC. Close enough?
> 
> 
> It's on the floor under my 4600HD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Mark



The 8500 LC has smaller tubes with the same optics as the 9500LC which gives it a much longer throw ratio (would require that it must be much further back). I can't remember exactly but it's something like 1.85 X screen width.


Chip


----------



## rajdude

Ok Guys,

After reading all your posts I thought I think I should look a little closer after I reduce the rez. Here is what I saw yesterday night.

*I DO see scanlines* (If I look closely enough) on the screen itself.










I get big FAT scan lines at 640 x 480. The scan lines get smaller at 1024 x 768 but they are still there, I just need to look carefully for them. At 1920 x 1440 they dissapear altogether...which is not surprising.


I do have a hard time looking for scanlines on the tubefaces, they just are too bright...if I turn down the contrast I do not see scanlines..Do I need to use sun-glasses?










Now the colors differ too... I see no scanlines on the red. I see good scanlines on blue and less scanlines on green.










So bottom line ..I'm a moron for not looking closely enough.

















But I'll still say that the pic is soft to my taste. I hope I can make it better. Anyway, I guess I may want to bring down the PJ someday soon and pull it back to make a 120" image and see if the image gets any better/sharper.


BTW, Chip, I could not see that HD10L listing on the 'bay today.





As for the 'stig n centering


..the red and blue beam centering looks Ok. The green is screwed up ...it is shifted to the right side. I checked this using the cross hatch pattern. It is much easier to see beam centeriing this way.


I did not get a chance to check for astigmatism.. it was almost 11 PM and the dog wanted to go out and I was sleepy.


How do you guys do the 'stig and centering on the tube faces? I can't make out anything on the tube faces...the dots are just too tiny.










I do not want to burn up the pristine rasters







so I am afraid of projecting dots at 95 contrast. Since I do not have enough experience with setting the stig and centering the beamsI think I will take longer and hence the dots and hatch patterns will be there for longer. Hence the risk of burn-in. If I can do it by looking into the lensesso much safer. But how??






Thanks everyone!

-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1920 x 1440 is definately pushing it. The 4200 is a middle generation projector and it can't do what the later generation projectors can do. Anything much over about 1000 lines is going to be less than optimal. Your max res will be about 1366 x 1024. That's progressive. If you go interlace then 1920 x 1080i will look fantastic. The 1280 x 720p HDTV mode will look excellent, too. Your projector is more than capable of displaying the best video available (that I can find, anyway).




I agree tse,

I think I am just pushing it too hard. Still I am surprised that it does not mind and puts out an image (although a soft image).


Right now resolutions of up-to 1024 x 768 are reasonably sharp.

*How can I feed any interlaced image from an HTPC ?*


I plan to sort all thhis out this weekend. (well if the wife does not spend too much time out, furniture shopping)


Thanks !

Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Hi tse,

did you get a chance to look at my HOT board?


-Rajiv


----------



## cmjohnson

Scan lines should be VERY easy to resolve on red and green tubes. Blue, too, but with certain

limitations such as your visual limits. We don't focus on blue as well as we do red or particularly green.


Ever noticed that signs lit in blue need to be a lot closer to you than equivalent signs lit in

any other color? Same limitation.


CJ


----------



## rajdude

Guys,

I really need some expert help especially from the repair/electronics guys here today.


My PJ- an Ampro 4200 is blowing fuses and tripping the circuit breaker!









*Here is the story.*

The PJ was working properly but the dynamic focus was not doing anything. I noticed that the one fuse in my PJ, the one on the focus modulator board (or at least that it what I think it is) was blown. I replaced that fuse and the main power supply fuse blew out. I replaced that fuse and then the focus mod board's fuse blew out. I replaced that one too so the main circuit breaker tripped.



I did not have real replacement fuses so I just tied up a little strand of very fine wire into the main fuse. I guess that my wire's rating was above 6 amp (the wires are REALLY thin) hence the main ckt breaker tripped.


Anyway, now I have removed the focus mod board fuse and now the PJ is back to normal. well....not really normal since I cannot get the edges focused. Here is a pic of the focus mod board with the problematic fuse circled.










*1. Now what do I do?


2. Is the focus modulator board bad? It seems so to me. What can I do about it?


3. Can I try to find what went wrong with it somehow?*


I am pretty good with DIY electronics and have basic tools too.

I am puzzled...how come the Static focus control still works. Only the Dynamic Focus controls do not work.










Please note that I see no error codes. A query into the Ampro's remote says System OK


Any help is highly appreciated.


Thanks !

Rajiv


----------



## Allan Jayne

Electrolytic capacitors are very likely components to develop short circuits.


Did you notice any smoking or odors, or any discoloration on either side of the board?


Video hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/video.htm


----------



## andy2000

Never EVER replace a fuse with anything other than the correct fuse. Using wire, foil, or a bigger fuse can cause massive damage to the electronics, not to mention the fire hazard. I see minor problems turned into major problems all the time when people bypass fuses.


----------



## rajdude

Hello Allan,

Nope, I do not smell anything. But a long time back ( when I just bought this PJ) it was not giving me any image, I did not know that I need to bring up the test/help patterns and then when I would go back to channel 1 ...the image will show up.


Anyway at that time (out of frustration) I switched on and off the pj numerous times in close succession.... I did get a burning smell that day, but never after that. I guess it was the fuse blowing???



Nashua, Eh? I lived in Nashua for 2-3 years. We moved out last year. Nice place!







I was right off exit one... on the left side... in the townhouses of Meadowview circle.


Me and my family miss it dearly. We left quite a few friends behind.


Thanks

-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andy2000* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Never EVER replace a fuse with anything other than the correct fuse. Using wire, foil, or a bigger fuse can cause massive damage to the electronics, not to mention the fire hazard. I see minor problems turned into major problems all the time when people bypass fuses.




Yes, I know this 'golden rule'. Thus I used a very very thin strand of wire, which gave up the ghost the first time. The second time I doubled up that wire and the ckt breaker tripped.


I SWEAR those two tiny wires CANNOT carry 20 amps through them! The circuit breaker which tripped was rated at 20 Amps.


But I have seen very sensitive breakers too.


But thanks for the reminder!



I'll go buy the fuses tomorrow.... today by the time I went to radio-shack...it was 9 PM....and they were closed










-Rajiv


----------



## Maxxarcade

Check the bridge rectifier just to the left of the fuse. Looks like that fuse would go to the input side of that rectifier.


If it's not that, I'd look at the larger transistors on the big heatsink.


Capacitors can short when they go bad, but much more commonly they dry out and go "open"


I've never worked on an Ampro, but looking at the board in the picture I'm giving my best advice. If you have a multimeter with a diode test, you can check that rectifier and the transistors for shorts very easily. If you need to know how to do that, let me know.


----------



## stefuel

After you get new fuses, put the board back in and try singling out one focus coil at a time. Also, is this projector hung or on a table? If it's on the ceiling, did you bench test it first? It would not be the first time a loose screw found it's way to the underside (now the top) of a mother board and raised havock. It sounds to me that you have a dead short very close to power entry. I would pull the SMPS and inspect it and the area it came from for signs of heat. Because the wires leading from the focus mod connector on the mother board and focus board itself are so small, I would suspect that they would be dis-colored if the dead short short was in the focus circuit. If you can't find anything, the next step, if it were me, would be to strip it down to the motherboard and pull it right out for inspection. I can strip that motherboard out in a hour. Just tipping the projector is no garrantee that there's nothing there as a small star washer or the like can become fused to the board given enough amps.


Chip


----------



## jtnfoley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Maxxarcade* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Check the bridge rectifier just to the left of the fuse. Looks like that fuse would go to the input side of that rectifier.
> 
> 
> If it's not that, I'd look at the larger transistors on the big heatsink.
> 
> 
> Capacitors can short when they go bad, but much more commonly they dry out and go "open"
> 
> 
> I've never worked on an Ampro, but looking at the board in the picture I'm giving my best advice. If you have a multimeter with a diode test, you can check that rectifier and the transistors for shorts very easily. If you need to know how to do that, let me know.



I had a Dell OptiPlex 270 (Dell's got a LOT of capacitor trouble with that one) blow a crater in one of the PCI Set support chips... supposition is a shorted cap. Pretty spectacular failure mode, that one.


----------



## Maxxarcade

I've seen LOTS of capacitors blow up... sometimes the whole top blows off, sometimes it splits open, a lot of the time it just bulges and leaks.


Lots of computer motherboards had defective capacitors a few years ago. From what I heard, someone had stolen the formula for some capacitor electrolyte, got it wrong, made defective electrolyte, and sold it to a few manufacturers. The result was capacitors that produced hydrogen gas upon heating up. Some lasted longer than others.


Just a couple days ago I replaced 15 capacitors on the motherboard for one of our Megatouch countertop games. Every one of the games that has the motherboard made by Unicorn Computer had the same bad caps.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Maxxarcade* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Check the bridge rectifier just to the left of the fuse. Looks like that fuse would go to the input side of that rectifier.
> 
> 
> If it's not that, I'd look at the larger transistors on the big heatsink.
> 
> 
> Capacitors can short when they go bad, but much more commonly they dry out and go "open"
> 
> 
> I've never worked on an Ampro, but looking at the board in the picture I'm giving my best advice. If you have a multimeter with a diode test, you can check that rectifier and the transistors for shorts very easily. If you need to know how to do that, let me know.



Thanks Maxx...

I will look into the circuit diagram (if I can find it) and start troubleshooting this way.


I just wanted to check with other people here....maybe someone had encountered this problem in the past.


-Rajiv


----------



## cmjohnson

If you don't have the right fuses, DON'T SUBSTITUTE. Fuses are critical safety devices and

not just for YOUR safety, but to keep a board fault from becoming WORSE.


That's a pretty dumb thing to do, if you'll pardon my honesty.


Your impatience probably made the problem much worse.


What's the part number on the focus board? I may have a good spare I can provide for you.



CJ


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> After you get new fuses, put the board back in and try singling out one focus coil at a time. Also, is this projector hung or on a table? If it's on the ceiling, did you bench test it first? It would not be the first time a loose screw found it's way to the underside (now the top) of a mother board and raised havock. It sounds to me that you have a dead short very close to power entry. I would pull the SMPS and inspect it and the area it came from for signs of heat. Because the wires leading from the focus mod connector on the mother board and focus board itself are so small, I would suspect that they would be dis-colored if the dead short short was in the focus circuit. If you can't find anything, the next step, if it were me, would be to strip it down to the motherboard and pull it right out for inspection. I can strip that motherboard out in a hour. Just tipping the projector is no garrantee that there's nothing there as a small star washer or the like can become fused to the board given enough amps.
> 
> 
> Chip




Hi Chip,

Thanks for the response. I think you got my situation wrong ....well just a little teeny weeny bit










Pl let me clarify...

The PJ is working absolutely fine. There is nothing wrong with the SMPS. Only the focus in the corners of the image is off and the focus board's fuse keeps blowing.

Hence there is surely something wrong with ONLY the focus board.


But you mention checking the focus coil. Do these things short out? How do I check them?


the wires leading from the focus mod connector on the mother board and focus board itself are NOT discolored...but I do not think they will get discolored anyway since there is a fuse in the circuit. That will blow first.


BTW, the PJ is on the ceiling now. But it was working the same way on the table.


-Rajiv


----------



## dav99

It looks like you could power the board with an external power supply,use the current limiting, you will find the short quickly this way.


----------



## matrix

I have a feeling the AVS CRT forum is about to give up it's perfect record of no CRT related DEATHS.


----------



## dav99

"I have a feeling the AVS CRT forum is about to give up it's perfect record of no CRT related DEATHS"


perfect record ? How would we know, who would post it, there are some that do not post any more! we have not heard from raster in a while!


----------



## matrix

Curt will know!


----------



## andy2000

Something on that board is drawing a LOT more current than it's supposed to. It's most likely caused by one or more shorted diodes, or power transistors. After bypassing the fuse, there may be a lot of blown parts on the board. If you're not familiar with component level repair, you'll have to replace the whole board, or send it to someone who can repair it. The first thing I would check is that black square device near the fuse.


----------



## tse

Maxxarcade and andy2000 are leading you down the right path. The fuse on the foc mod bd is for the power supply on the daughter bd. Most likely it's a croaker. Check the parts on the heatsinks for shorts. If the mosfet is bad probably the PWM chip is gone, too.


Best to take the board out off the pj to check stuff. This bd uses 115VAC (or 220V) from the wall socket so UNPLUG the projector and wait a while before you start handling the bd.


----------



## rajdude

Thanks guys, I will look into it tonight.

*tse, I am very confused about how this board works but I think you can answer this question...


How come the static focus control on this Ampro 4200 works EVEN when the EM focus board is not working?*


Only the dynamic focus is not working.


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cmjohnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you don't have the right fuses, DON'T SUBSTITUTE. Fuses are critical safety devices and
> 
> not just for YOUR safety, but to keep a board fault from becoming WORSE.
> 
> 
> That's a pretty dumb thing to do, if you'll pardon my honesty.
> 
> 
> Your impatience probably made the problem much worse.
> 
> 
> What's the part number on the focus board? I may have a good spare I can provide for you.
> 
> 
> 
> CJ




You are right CJ, it is pretty dumb on my part. The only saving grace was that I had enough brains to use the thinnest strand of wire I could find. That probably saved the rest of the PJ.


I do not think (at this point) that my actions made the problems worse (good luck or my tiny wire...I do not know !)


Although I can go down to component level , I think it may be faster to just get a replacement board. I will let you know the part number tonight.



-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Guys,

I am (kinda) overjoyed! I say "kind-of" because I am not 100% sure I got it right, so I'll explain.

*YAHOO ! I think I got the astig and beam centering done correctly.*


On friday night I was up until 4 AM ! ...doing all these things. I think I spent around an hr doing the astig and beam centering on the blue. After I got the hang of it & I was able to do the green in maybe 20 minutes and then the red in just 10 minutes!


Before that night, (Frankly) I was about to give up on this whole astig and beam centering thing. But once I spent some "quality time" with the PJ I got it right!


This PJ was just not set up right at all! I found out that I had the do the focus magnet sliding fore and aft procedure first. Just that gave me a much sharper picture. I found out that (as per the manual) these magnets do not really have to be positioned all the way against the deflection yoke. I am getting best focus around 4-5 mm back. But I guess that the actual position does not matter, right?


Ok, now the reason why I think that maybe it can be done better or maybe I really did not get it right is because the focus is sharp only in the center of the screen. The corners are still out of focus. Of course I can slide the magnets to get the corners in focus ...but I think the dynamic focus circuits are supposed to do that.


Now if you read my other thread, my EM focus board is blown....so I guess I need that board working to get everything in focus.


I am also perplexed why my final settings are very different from the paint blobs done at the factory??.



OH yes, I almost forgot to say this...*I do see scan lines now at 1024 x 768.* Haven't tried more yet.


Thanks to everyone who has help me through this. Now I need to tackle the focus board issue...

-Rajiv


----------



## Clarence

Congrats.


Let me know the ##### on the focus bd.


----------



## rajdude

Convergence and heat issues

I also did a full convergence on my Ampro 4200 (I was up till 4AM!!







) but now I have a couple of issues with it. First...all that heat and then the convergence drifts (of course).










The convergence board's heatsink gets too hot. It is too hot to touch!







*I measured it at 130 to 140 degrees* using my IR thermometer. Too bad that the heatsink has no fins that can use natural convection.


I know that means my convergence circuits are working too hard but I have dialed in the static convergence as good as I can.







Toggling the registration on/off (55 CODE) does not move the center of the image at all. I hear that is a good test of static convergence.

*Do other people's boards also get so hot?*










These ICs/Transistors will get cooked in not time. I am putting a couple of fans on them for the time being.


Any ideas why this board is running so hot & what can be done about it?




-Rajiv


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks guys, I will look into it tonight.
> 
> *tse, I am very confused about how this board works but I think you can answer this question...
> 
> 
> How come the static focus control on this Ampro 4200 works EVEN when the EM focus board is not working?*
> 
> 
> Only the dynamic focus is not working.
> 
> 
> -Rajiv



The focus magnet has two windings. One is high inductance so it takes a small current to do it's thing. It does the static focus (some also do the top and bottom). There is a small amplifier (for each color) to do this job. The other winding is low inductance so it doesn't take too much voltage to modulate the left and right sides. It does take alot of current so this is a much more powerful set of amplifiers. So, the dynamic section of your board is dead but the static section is still working.


----------



## rajdude

OK Great!

I get it, that means some parts of that EM focus board are still working. It is not totally dead. Strangely, the static section of my board does not look like it also does the top ans bottom, since the top/bottom does not get any better if I use the dynamic focus adjustment.



Anyway, I am trying to find the schematic for this board. I have the 4300's service manual but I cannot locate this particular board. It does have a file "x300SM 11[1].21 Magnetic Focus Modulator Board (81170AX3).tif" but that does not looks like my board.

*Does anyone have the exact schematic?*


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Bump

(Reminder) question to tse.


----------



## kal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think I spent around an hr doing the astig and beam centering on the blue. After I got the hang of it & I was able to do the green in maybe 20 minutes and then the red in just 10 minutes!



Good god... you *started* with blue? You're a glutton for punishment!







Blue's impossible to see... I always go from easiest to hardest: Green -> red -> blue.



> Quote:
> Ok, now the reason why I think that maybe it can be done better or maybe I really did not get it right is because the focus is sharp only in the center of the screen. The corners are still out of focus. Of course I can slide the magnets to get the corners in focus ...but I think the dynamic focus circuits are supposed to do that.



Make sure that your optical focus and sheimplug is perfect across the screen first. I use the grain phosphor to check this as you cannot use the actual test pattern as you won't know if the problem's the optics or the electronic focus.


Kal


----------



## tse

It would be best to verify how much raster is not being used before messing with the sub-width pot. Turn up the brightness and/or the G-2 on one color and see if the video is covering almost all of the raster. If there is alot of raster that is not being used it would best to change your video so that there is not so much blanking time.


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The focus magnet has two windings. One is high inductance so it takes a small current to do it's thing. It does the static focus (some also do the top and bottom). There is a small amplifier (for each color) to do this job. The other winding is low inductance so it doesn't take too much voltage to modulate the left and right sides. It does take alot of current so this is a much more powerful set of amplifiers. So, the dynamic section of your board is dead but the static section is still working.



Wait a minute...


This is valid for the 3600/4300/4600 focus mod board.


The 2300/4200 focus mag has only one winding to do all three functions. Static, top and bottom, and left and right. There is also only one amp per color. It gets +40V from the daughter bd/power supply and it also gets -20V from the SMPS. Evidently the amp can still partially work with only -20V! Enough to do some static adjustment.


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK Great!
> 
> I get it, that means some parts of that EM focus board are still working. It is not totally dead. Strangely, the static section of my board does not look like it also does the top ans bottom, since the top/bottom does not get any better if I use the dynamic focus adjustment.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I am trying to find the schematic for this board. I have the 4300's service manual but I cannot locate this particular board. It does have a file "x300SM 11[1].21 Magnetic Focus Modulator Board (81170AX3).tif" but that does not looks like my board.
> 
> *Does anyone have the exact schematic?*
> 
> 
> -Rajiv



If the board is 80970 then I have the schematic. Will post later this evening.


----------



## tse

The 80970 schematic w/pwr supply.

 

FocusMod.pdf 64.611328125k . file


----------



## rajdude

Thanks tse but it looks like my board is different.


The Focus Modulator board has this printed on the board :


65331 Rev X1


It also has a daughter board mounted on it. That board has these numbers on it:


65418 Rev X


Do you have the schematic of this one?


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Congrats.
> 
> 
> Let me know the ##### on the focus bd.




HI Clarence,


The Focus Modulator board has this printed on the board :


65331 Rev X1


It also has a daughter board mounted on it. That board has these numbers on it:


65418 Rev X


Please check if you have this one.


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cmjohnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you don't have the right fuses, DON'T SUBSTITUTE. Fuses are critical safety devices and
> 
> not just for YOUR safety, but to keep a board fault from becoming WORSE.
> 
> 
> That's a pretty dumb thing to do, if you'll pardon my honesty.
> 
> 
> Your impatience probably made the problem much worse.
> 
> 
> What's the part number on the focus board? I may have a good spare I can provide for you.
> 
> 
> 
> CJ




Hi CJ,

The Focus Modulator board has this printed on the board :


65331 Rev X1


It also has a daughter board mounted on it. That board has these numbers on it:


65418 Rev X


Please check if you have this board.


-Rajiv


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks tse but it looks like my board is different.
> 
> 
> The Focus Modulator board has this printed on the board :
> 
> 
> 65331 Rev X1
> 
> 
> It also has a daughter board mounted on it. That board has these numbers on it:
> 
> 
> 65418 Rev X
> 
> 
> Do you have the schematic of this one?
> 
> 
> -Rajiv



The 65XXX numbers refer to the circuit board number, has nothing to do with the assy part number. I can tell from the picture that you posted that your assy is most likely 80970. Look at the stickers that are stuck on the board.


----------



## rajdude

40 views and no replies?


Please help if you have a solution.


-RM


----------



## andy2000

I can't talk about your projector specifically, but 140 degrees (I assume that F)

isn't that outrageous. It's common for heat sinks to run too hot to touch. I don't

like it either and it does shorten component life, but it's not as bad as you think.

A fan is a good idea if you want to make things more reliable.


----------



## Curt Palme

If one or more of your parameters are below 25 or above 75, something is wrong. Things like Pin and Key will interact, so if you're at 90 on one and 10 on the other in the same quadrant, reset both to 50 and start over.


That happens all the time. If the convergence jumnpers on the yokes are wrong, you'll need more convergence control than normal to get them in line.


Start from a cold start and see if one or two chips heat up more than the others. You might have a bad chip. Also check the +/- voltages coming into the convergence board. Variances between the two due to a bad LVPS can also cause overheating.


Does the heat sink cool down with the registration off? It should not run even lukewarm with the reggie turned off.


----------



## RoBro

If its centigrade your electronics will not last very long...

Roland


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The 65XXX numbers refer to the circuit board number, has nothing to do with the assy part number. I can tell from the picture that you posted that your assy is most likely 80970. Look at the stickers that are stuck on the board.




Ya, I thought you would say that when I was posting that number.


I looked at the schematic you gave me, it does look like the one I need. THANKS !










I will also look at the white stickers, but there are like 5 of them...I guess something will say 80970 on it.


Thanks again, tse, I really appreciate your help.

-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

*Does someone have the board layout diagram of this focus board too?* Makes it easier to trouleshoot.


Frankly I'd rather get a replacement board if possible. Saves me the precious little time I have with my family in the evenings.










-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Curt Palme* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If one or more of your parameters are below 25 or above 75, something is wrong. Things like Pin and Key will interact, so if you're at 90 on one and 10 on the other in the same quadrant, reset both to 50 and start over.



Ya some parameters have to be beyond this range to get the image converged properly. Especially the keystone. That one is maxed out for sure. The PJ is mounted on the ceiling and it is tilted downwards a little bit. Hence I have to use a lot of Keystone.


But I will check these things again.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Curt Palme* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That happens all the time. If the convergence jumnpers on the yokes are wrong, you'll need more convergence control than normal to get them in line.



1. Convergence Jumpers, Eh? What are those?

2. Where can I find them.

3. How to verify if they are correctly set?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Curt Palme* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Start from a cold start and see if one or two chips heat up more than the others. You might have a bad chip. Also check the +/- voltages coming into the convergence board. Variances between the two due to a bad LVPS can also cause overheating.



OK will check these things. Thanks !











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Curt Palme* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does the heat sink cool down with the registration off? It should not run even lukewarm with the reggie turned off.



Yes it does, Ya it is cold with the registration off.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RoBro* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If its centigrade your electronics will not last very long...
> 
> Roland




RoBro,

These numbers are in F ...not C. But still I get a little worried. I think they should not be significantly above 100 F.


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It would be best to verify how much raster is not being used before messing with the sub-width pot. Turn up the brightness and/or the G-2 on one color and see if the video is covering almost all of the raster. If there is alot of raster that is not being used it would best to change your video so that there is not so much blanking time.



tse,

I checked the raster and the image. The video image is NOT covering almost all of the raster. It has a lot of space on the sides. I have maxed out the width.

*How do I do this...*


"change your video so that there is not so much blanking time."


...by using the width Pot or something else in the HTPC?





I also see some really weird things here. My PJ's raster width is dependent on what rez I am feeding it.


1. At 640 x 480 the raster is almost fully maximized (maybe 3-4 mm from the edges). The image is around 1/4 inch inside the raster.


2. At 1024 x 768, the raster is around 1/4 inch away from the edge. The image is around 1/2 inch inside the raster.


3. at higher rez (like 1920 x 760), the raster shrinks even more and the image is around an inch away from the tube edges.

*Is it normal for the raster to shrink as the rez goes up?*



-Rajiv


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ya some parameters have to be beyond this range to get the image converged properly. Especially the keystone. That one is maxed out for sure. The PJ is mounted on the ceiling and it is tilted downwards a little bit. Hence I have to use a lot of Keystone.



The east west keystone is done with the HOT bd and doesn't contribute to registation amp heating.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The east west keystone is done with the HOT bd and doesn't contribute to registation amp heating.



Thanks for this info, tse. Did you get a chance to look at my post about the raster and image width. HERE is the Link (click on Here)



I answered your questions (see two posts above)


Thanks

Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Hi Clarence,

I see you merged my three threads.


Although...I do understand that why you did it, I had to spawn new threads because I was not getting any good responses in the past. Now I was getting somewhere.


I have three seperate issues and they are not co-related.


1. Image width

2. Focus Board

3. Overheating Convergence board.


For responders to my threads it was easier to post to seperate threads on totally seperate topics. + I used to get more eye balls on the threads.


Now...after the merge... I am afraid that some of my issues will get lost & I'll have to keep reminding people ( like I just did above)



-Rajiv


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> tse,
> 
> I checked the raster and the image. The video image is NOT covering almost all of the raster. It has a lot of space on the sides. I have maxed out the width.
> 
> *How do I do this...*
> 
> 
> "change your video so that there is not so much blanking time."
> 
> 
> ...by using the width Pot or something else in the HTPC?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also see some really weird things here. My PJ's raster width is dependent on what rez I am feeding it.
> 
> 
> 1. At 640 x 480 the raster is almost fully maximized (maybe 3-4 mm from the edges). The image is around 1/4 inch inside the raster.
> 
> 
> 2. At 1024 x 768, the raster is around 1/4 inch away from the edge. The image is around 1/2 inch inside the raster.
> 
> 
> 3. at higher rez (like 1920 x 760), the raster shrinks even more and the image is around an inch away from the tube edges.
> 
> *Is it normal for the raster to shrink as the rez goes up?*
> 
> 
> 
> -Rajiv




It's normal for the raster to get somewhat smaller as you go up in frequency (with this Ampro HOT bd). I don't know how you set your HTPC for less blanking time. Ideal situation is the picture almost completely covers the raster. Your picture would be alot larger then, right? You would be alot better off if you could change the video rather than just increasing the width. Increased width means the HOT bd has to work harder.


----------



## rajdude

Ok thanks again tse.


But first ...that "width pot" on the HOT board controls the raster width or the image width?


Do you know of any other source (other than HTPCs) which has the ability to change blanking time? I do not know if DVD players can do that.


-Rajiv


----------



## tse

The width pot controls both. Make raster bigger, make picture bigger.


I don't know of any DVD players that you can change the video parameters on. If you can control them with a HTPC then it would be possible to have the blanking times too long.


Generally you want the vertical blanking to be about 3-5% of the field time (3% of 1/refresh rate).


The horizontal blanking time should be about 20-25% of the line time.


Any more than that and there will be too much raster not being used.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The width pot controls both. Make raster bigger, make picture bigger.
> 
> 
> I don't know of any DVD players that you can change the video parameters on. If you can control them with a HTPC then it would be possible to have the blanking times too long.
> 
> 
> Generally you want the vertical blanking to be about 3-5% of the field time (3% of 1/refresh rate).
> 
> 
> The horizontal blanking time should be about 20-25% of the line time.
> 
> 
> Any more than that and there will be too much raster not being used.




Oh,

then I guess I do not need to mess around with the width pot. (since my raster is already maximised)


Meanwhile I did some research, looks like an application - PowerStrip may be able to accomplish what I need.


gotta check that out tonight.


Thanks for all your help.







I really appreciate it.


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Everyone,

(I hope I get somebody to respond. I have been sending e-mails to Curt, CJ and Clarence, but







no response from any of them) I'm starting to wonder if I said something wrong







)


*I need a replacement EM Focus Modulator board for this Ampro 4200.* It has this printed on the board :


65331 Rev X1


It also has a daughter board mounted on it. That board has these numbers on it:


65418 Rev X

*Does someone have this board?* OR can Curt repair my board?



I really do not have enough time on my hand to troubleshoot it.


Thanks,

-Rajiv


----------



## Clarence

Can you post a picture of the focus board? I haven't come across one yet.


Does anyone know if the 3400 or 3600 has a focus board?


----------



## rajdude

Yes Clarence, the 3600 has a EM focus board.


Here is a pic of the board


----------



## rajdude

I am also looking for a heatsink which looks exactly like the one in the picture above. A simple solution would be to get a dead EM focus board from an Ampro PJ.

*Anyone has a dead EM focus board ??*


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can you post a picture of the focus board? I haven't come across one yet.
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if the 3400 or 3600 has a focus board?



The 34, 36, 4600 has a focus mod board but it is a different assy. The 23 and 4200 focus bd is unique in that it has a built in power supply for the dynamic amplifiers.


----------



## Clarence

Well, I've got 3 of those 3400/3600 focus boards, but it doesn't sound like that'll do you much good in a 4200.


----------



## rajdude

Where is Curt when you need him!


I hope he has the board


CURT ? CURT????


Where are you ? I've been trying to get in touch with you for 2 days now.


Of course he must be sleeping right now







....I'll wait.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The focus magnet has two windings. One is high inductance so it takes a small current to do it's thing. It does the static focus (some also do the top and bottom). There is a small amplifier (for each color) to do this job. The other winding is low inductance so it doesn't take too much voltage to modulate the left and right sides. It does take alot of current so this is a much more powerful set of amplifiers. So, the dynamic section of your board is dead but the static section is still working.



Hi tse,

I cannot locate two sections (static and dynamic) of this board on the schematic you posted.


I can see ICs (AD633) which take the "H Bow" & "V Bow" signal input (and also something labeled R,G and B) and are driving the LM675 Power amps for each of R, G & B magnets. But that's about all.


Are these amps (LM675) for the dynamic or the static focus?


Where are the other amps?


Also the daughter board sends output to J1 and are labelled:


+IM

+40 V

-IM


What is the + & - IM going to?


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi tse,
> 
> I cannot locate two sections (static and dynamic) of this board on the schematic you posted.
> 
> This board drives a focus magnet with only one winding. An earlier post I said something about two windings but that is for the 36, 43, 4600 projectors. My mistake.
> 
> 
> I can see ICs (AD633) which take the "H Bow" & "V Bow" signal input (and also something labeled R,G and B) and are driving the LM675 Power amps for each of R, G & B magnets. But that's about all.
> 
> The R, G, and B are the static signals.
> 
> 
> Are these amps (LM675) for the dynamic or the static focus?
> 
> The LM675s do both. Static and dynamic.
> 
> 
> Where are the other amps?
> 
> 
> Also the daughter board sends output to J1 and are labelled:
> 
> 
> +IM
> 
> +40 V
> 
> -IM
> 
> 
> What is the + & - IM going to?



I'll have to check the schematic. Don't remember off the top of my head. The problem with your board appears to be the power supply (daughter bd).


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> This board drives a focus magnet with only one winding. An earlier post I said something about two windings but that is for the 36, 43, 4600 projectors. My mistake.



OK, but does that make this type of focus magnet less accurate than those who have two windings?




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> The R, G, and B are the static signals.



OK, what about the "H Bow" & "V Bow" signal input to the ICs (AD633). Is that Dynamic? Why are they labelled "Bow" instead of "Dyn" or something similar.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I'll have to check the schematic. Don't remember off the top of my head. The problem with your board appears to be the power supply (daughter bd).




As I troubleshoot it, the first thing I am doing is try to understand what this daughter board does. I hear from you that it is a power supply....sounds simple enough and I can see it generates + 40 volts for the LM 675s, but don't understand where the + & - IM are going to. Let me know when you find out what those + & - IM connections are feeding and what is their use?


Thanks again & thanks for being patient with all my (numerous) questions!


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

A few updates

*Focus Board issues:*


I checked the Focus board's numbers, yes the circuit is the same as the schematic tse posted - 880970. Thanks tse!


*Image Width Issues:*


I also checked Powerstrip, that is able to increase the width of the image on the raster. Also it can center it without using the PJ's phase conrol. Cool!

*Convergence Board Issues:*


With the registration off, the convergence amp is absolutely cool to touch. With reg on, all the ICs are at the same temp.

*I have another question:*

Can a Convergence amp board from a 3600 fit into a 4200?


They look very similar to each other, just a couple of capacitors are different.


From 3600: (I have the schematic)

Board : 65333-01 Rev A

Ckt : 81010-01


From 4200: (Anyone has a schematic for this one?)

Board : 65248 RevA

Ckt : 880949


Thanks

Rajiv


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK, but does that make this type of focus magnet less accurate than those who have two windings?
> 
> Nope. Perhaps a little less efficient. It takes a little more power to do the static focus this way.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, what about the "H Bow" & "V Bow" signal input to the ICs (AD633). Is that Dynamic? Why are they labelled "Bow" instead of "Dyn" or something similar.
> 
> 
> The signals have a "bow" shape, actually a parabola. One is at the horizontal frequency the other vertical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I troubleshoot it, the first thing I am doing is try to understand what this daughter board does. I hear from you that it is a power supply....sounds simple enough and I can see it generates + 40 volts for the LM 675s, but don't understand where the + & - IM are going to. Let me know when you find out what those + & - IM connections are feeding and what is their use?
> 
> 
> Thanks again & thanks for being patient with all my (numerous) questions!
> 
> 
> -Rajiv



The + & -IN nodes are the power input. The AC power from the wall socket is rectified (doubled for 115VAC) and filtered to 300VDC. That 300VDC is connected across the -IN and +IN.


----------



## rajdude

Thanks again tse!


Do you also have the schematic for this circuit: 80949

It is a registration amp board.


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Folks ,

does anyone have the schematic for this Ampro circuit: 80949

It is a registration/convergence amp board.


-RM


----------



## Ray Cendroski

Outside of people with access to Ampro factory literature like Elite Video (or maybe tse), I don't think you'll find a schematic for a board particular to the 4200. Ampro never produced a repair/service type manual for the 4200 like they did for the 2000/4000 and 4300/4600 models.


Sometimes, rather than troubleshoot something like a small power supply circuit, I'll just replace all the usual suspect parts like capacitors and semi-conductors. The Ampro parts are usually pretty common and cheap, and it's quicker.


Ray


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Outside of people with access to Ampro factory literature like Elite Video (or maybe tse), I don't think you'll find a schematic for a board particular to the 4200. Ampro never produced a repair/service type manual for the 4200 like they did for the 2000/4000 and 4300/4600 models.
> 
> 
> Sometimes, rather than troubleshoot something like a small power supply circuit, I'll just replace all the usual suspect parts like capacitors and semi-conductors. The Ampro parts are usually pretty common and cheap, and it's quicker.
> 
> 
> Ray




You are right Ray,

But this board is not the board which conked out. This is the convergence amp (see issue above)


I just hope tse has a schematic and posts it here.


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Bump as a reminder to tse.


I hope he has the schematic.


-Rajiv


----------



## tse

Buddy, I'm sorry. This one turned up a blank. When Ampro went bankrupt alot of stuff got thrown in the dumpster before someone that gave a crap showed up on their own time to try to save stuff. You wouldn't believe it. Everyones personal records were thrown in a pile on the floor and alot of engineering stuff was lost. I looked through all the old drawings and couldn't find anything on the 4200 convergence amplifier. I hope there is someone out there that has copies of it.


----------



## rajdude

I studied the convergence amp board of my 4200, it looks very similar to the convergence amp board on the 2000. I have the convergence amp' schematic for the 2000.

*I am thinking of replacing my 4200's board with a 3600's.*

There are two differences I see between them (the 4200's and the 3600's). Here is what on the newer board:-


(1.) The power-supply section is a little different, but it still seems to supply +- 25 volts to the LM675s.


But, I do not understand what that circuit is doing though, it seems to take +- 25 V and output something labeled +-25 SW . And that is going to the power supply inputs of the Op-amps (LM675)


(2.) The other difference is that the convergence signal goes to the inverting input of the Op-amp (LM657). This means that the output will be inverted, right? But later the connectors going to the Yokes are reversed. I understand that this effectively reverses the signals.....hence making the signals the same as that coming out of the older board.

*Anyway the bottom line is can I swap the boards without any problem??*


----------



## rajdude

Thanks for looking tse, if you got a minute, please look into my above question. For reference, here are the two schematics I am looking at...


The new Board:

(from x600)
http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/RegistrationAmplifierModule(81010A).jpg 


The old board (from 4200) taken from the 2000 service manual
http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/2000_reg_amp_board.jpg 


That manual can be found here:
http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/Ampro...ice_Manual.pdf 


-Rajiv


----------



## Dion^Swamp

If you need better scans of the service manual let me know the page numbers so I can put them up on my Ampro page, the pdf you linked to is possibly the worst quality scan I have ever seen.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dion^Swamp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you need better scans of the service manual let me know the page numbers so I can put them up on my Ampro page, the pdf you linked to is possibly the worst quality scan I have ever seen.




HA HA, you are right, I got these PDFs in a CD which came with the PJ.

Right now, I dont need any scans, but thanks!


BTW, did you get the lighter or the darker shade of the green C element for your 4200?


Also ever thought of swapping parts with newer Ampros (for better performance)?


I am thinking of swapping the convergence board with a x600's board. Looks pretty much the same but I am still waiting for tse to verify (just to be 100% sure.) I hope I do not blow up the PJ if I test-swap the boards.


tse, what is the worse that can happen? The registration won't work right...right?? or can I also damage some other circuits?


-Rajiv


----------



## stefuel




rajdude said:


> HA HA, you are right, I got these PDFs in a CD which came with the PJ.
> 
> Right now, I dont need any scans, but thanks!
> 
> 
> BTW, did you get the lighter or the darker shade of the green C element for your 4200?
> 
> 
> Also ever thought of swapping parts with newer Ampros (for better performance)?
> 
> 
> I am thinking of swapping the convergence board with a x600's board. Looks pretty much the same but I am still waiting for tse to verify (just to be 100% sure.) I hope I do not blow up the PJ if I test-swap the boards.
> 
> 
> tse, what is the worse that can happen? The registration won't work right...right?? or can I also damage some other circuits?
> 
> 
> -Rajiv[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> While attempting board transfusions, you may get board incompatability error messages. That used to happen between even early and late model 2000/4000 projectors. I think the CPU looks for compatable hardware while it's booting up. It may not recognize the board and send the error message.
> 
> 
> Chip


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> While attempting board transfusions, you may get board incompatability error messages. That used to happen between even early and late model 2000/4000 projectors. I think the CPU looks for compatable hardware while it's booting up. It may not recognize the board and send the error message.
> 
> 
> Chip




You are right, Chip, but from what I can see in the schematic, this board does not have any "brains" which will enable the CPU to recognise that it is not the correct one.


All it has is a bunch of simple Power-Amps and a power supply section which is feeding them.


For the CPU to "know" if it is the right board or not, don't you think it should have some digital circuits on it? This board has none.


-Rajiv


----------



## madpoet

Hey raj, I've followed this thread with some interest. If you don't mind me asking since I didn't see it in the thread, what are your chasis hours? I just picked up a fairly hard-used 4300 so I'm sure I will be going through a lot of what you've had to endure


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *madpoet* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey raj, I've followed this thread with some interest. If you don't mind me asking since I didn't see it in the thread, what are your chasis hours? I just picked up a fairly hard-used 4300 so I'm sure I will be going through a lot of what you've had to endure




Well the CPU was glitched and the battery was dead...then when you eventually replace the battery...the hrs get all garbled up. Hence I really do not know.


But the tubes are a perfect 10 across all three, (the main reason I bought it) .......from the looks of it this PJ was not used much. There is no dust anywhere inside.... OR maybe it was not working properly so no-one used it....OR maybe someone replaced the tubes before selling it. One thing is for sure...the blue tube has been replaced. That means it WAS used....right?































...i really do not know the history of this PJ. It is all garbled up.





Well, going back to your question....I do not think that your PJ will give you such a hard time as well. It all just "depends".


Just DO NOT switch it on and off rapidly...that (apparantly) caused my focus board to blow off.





Other than that it is not too bad (until now). The bottom line is ...it still works...the astig is done, but convergence amp board overheats (bad heatsink design + I am probably using too much adjustments) and the focus board's gone.


I am nearing the end of my tether here! HA HA!

















-Rajiv


----------



## Dion^Swamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW, did you get the lighter or the darker shade of the green C element for your 4200?



The slightly darker, but also burnt-to-a-crisp kind:
http://dion.swamp.dk/pics/ht/ampro42...rnt-c-element/ 


I have thought about upgrading the HVPS to a non-flaky one, I have one HVPS that gave up the ghost as I was modding in more G2 capacitance (possibly just a bad connection) and one that works, but I'll never be quite happy with the HVPS unless it's either a better model or I have a spare.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dion^Swamp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The slightly darker, but also burnt-to-a-crisp kind:
> http://dion.swamp.dk/pics/ht/ampro42...rnt-c-element/
> 
> 
> I have thought about upgrading the HVPS to a non-flaky one, I have one HVPS that gave up the ghost as I was modding in more G2 capacitance (possibly just a bad connection) and one that works, but I'll never be quite happy with the HVPS unless it's either a better model or I have a spare.




Actually what I meant was to ask you which "replacement C-element" did you get.


I have seen those pictures earlier and I know that you got those fried c-elements with your PJ originally. You say on your website:

"Got it: Green C-element, from Graham."


so I do not know if you are aware that two shades of green C-elements exist. Clarence told me that the darker green is the more accurate one. Thus I wanted to know if you got the darker or the lighter green element.


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Hi tse,

did you get a chance to check out my board swapping issue...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6923625 


-Rajiv


----------



## mtmelvin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well the CPU was glitched and the battery was dead...then when you eventually replace the battery...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DO NOT switch it on and off rapidly...that (apparantly) caused my focus board to blow off.
> 
> 
> it is not too bad (until now). ...it still works...the astig is done, but convergence amp board overheats (bad heatsink design + I am probably using too much adjustments) and the focus board's gone.
> 
> 
> I am nearing the end of my tether here! HA HA!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Rajiv



Oh Rajiv... hurry up and part the damn thing out! I'll take the tubes and the HVPS










-Mark


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I studied the convergence amp board of my 4200, it looks very similar to the convergence amp board on the 2000. I have the convergence amp' schematic for the 2000.
> 
> *I am thinking of replacing my 4200's board with a 3600's.*
> 
> There are two differences I see between them (the 4200's and the 3600's). Here is what on the newer board:-
> 
> 
> (1.) The power-supply section is a little different, but it still seems to supply +- 25 volts to the LM675s.
> 
> 
> But, I do not understand what that circuit is doing though, it seems to take +- 25 V and output something labeled +-25 SW . And that is going to the power supply inputs of the Op-amps (LM675)
> 
> That circuit does two things. First it switches power on and off to the amplifiers. 55 code. Second it's a current limit for the LVPS. It only allows a certain maximum amount of power draw. If an overload happens for more than half a minute or so the thermostat will disconnect power from the amps. After things cool down it will allow power to return.
> 
> 
> (2.) The other difference is that the convergence signal goes to the inverting input of the Op-amp (LM657). This means that the output will be inverted, right? But later the connectors going to the Yokes are reversed. I understand that this effectively reverses the signals.....hence making the signals the same as that coming out of the older board.
> 
> I think you are right.
> 
> *Anyway the bottom line is can I swap the boards without any problem??*



Ok, here's where there may be a problem. Are the registration coils for the two models the same inductance? They might be but I don't remember. If they are different the compensation for the amps will be wrong and the output will be distorted. I don't think it will blow-up but it might not work right.


----------



## Dion^Swamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually what I meant was to ask you which "replacement C-element" did you get.



Ah, right, well the old element was the darker kind, the new one was slightly lighter.


I don't mind getting less accurate greens, because I doubt I could tell the difference anyway.


----------



## rajdude

Nice! Thanks for the insight tse, I dont know what I'd do without you with this Ampro PJ! You and others here are the only things enabling me to hold on to this PJ, otherwise I'd have parted it out long back

Thanks again! Ok now back to the issues...

*Board Swap Issue #1*



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> That circuit does two things. First it switches power on and off to the amplifiers. 55 code. Second it's a current limit for the LVPS. It only allows a certain maximum amount of power draw. If an overload happens for more than half a minute or so the thermostat will disconnect power from the amps. After things cool down it will allow power to return.



Ya, I could understand that it is doing the '55 code' thing, but could not see that power draw limiting feature. Thanks! It seems to me that they may have upgraded that feature on the newer board (since that board has more complicated circuitry in that section)

*BUT...Here is the potential problem...*

I wonder if the parameters of the "power draw limit" are still the same. Because if they are not... that circuit may allow more power to be drawn (than what the LVPS can handle) and hence kill the LVPS.... right? UNLESS the LVPS is of the same power rating between the 4200 and the 3600/4600. THEN the things should be fine.

*Does anyone know the differences of power / voltage ratings between a LVPS of a 4200 and a 3600/4600?*


*Board Swap Issue #2*



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, here's where there may be a problem. Are the registration coils for the two models the same inductance? They might be but I don't remember. If they are different the compensation for the amps will be wrong and the output will be distorted. I don't think it will blow-up but it might not work right.



The values of components around the amps look the pretty much the same to me. It seems that a simple and 'safe' test would be to just swap the boards and see if the registration works right or not. If there is little chance that it will blow up, I may want to take the risk here.

_But first, what do you think about the above issue?_



-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh Rajiv... hurry up and part the damn thing out! I'll take the tubes and the HVPS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Mark




HA HA, not so soon buddy!









First I have the exhaust all of my options...and it is good to have tse here at AVS. Maybe this PJ will work properly after all.


Even if it works for a couple of years after I get it working...I'm a happy camper.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dion^Swamp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ah, right, well the old element was the darker kind, the new one was slightly lighter.
> 
> 
> I don't mind getting less accurate greens, because I doubt I could tell the difference anyway.




Ok, thanks for the update.

*Now the problematic thing is...*

My PJ already has a good Green C-Element. But I may want the darker green one.


But first ...How do I figure out that the existing C-element is the darker one OR the lighter one.


Most probably it is the darker one since your 4200 came with a darker green C-element. Right?


----------



## tse

One thing to keep in mind... The green "C" element reduces your light output 10 - 15%.


----------



## rajdude

tse,

looks like you are online.


Did you get a chance to read my response to the board swap issue (see it above or click here)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6937330 


I was just wondering about the LVPS power draw issue.


-RM


----------



## mtmelvin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...and it is good to have tse here at AVS.



THAT is a true statement. We are very lucky to have him here sharing his knowledge.


-Mark


----------



## rajdude

bump for tse


I hope he reads my post with a quick Q above
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...0&post6937330


----------



## rajdude

bump for tse


tse tse tse


Where are you?


----------



## rajdude

Hi tse


I hope you read my post with a quick Q above
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6937330 


I wanna do the board swap tonight, but first I'd like to hear what you think about this current draw thing.


Please respond.


----------



## tse

You are not going to overload your power supply if you take it easy with the corrections. Ampro was just starting to get into the simulator market when the 4600 was introduced and that market used curved screens, domes and all sorts of stuff that you don't normally use in home theater.


----------



## rajdude

sounds good, thanks tse.


I'll try to swap out the board tonight. But before I do that I will also check if any of my convergence controls are more/less than 75 or 25 respectively.


Thanks again! and wish me luck.


----------



## rajdude

Ok guys,

I have good news and bad news here today for my Ampro PJ. For one I am happy but the other is driving me nuts.

*First, the good news:*
The board swap was successful.









I did it at 4 AM!










The new board has slightly better gain'. After converging from a total reset, the board runs at around 105 F. The older board ran at 140 + F and still rising. So that is a good thing and I wanted just this. I guess the properly designed heat sink is contributing to the lower temps here.


I must point out that this time I have tried to keep everything under/over 75/25 so that may have contributed towards the cooler running board. Still, there are one or two settings which are still beyond this range. I will elaborate:


The width of the red and blue does not match the green. I have to go beyond 25&75 (on the horizontal linearity setting) to get them match up with the green. See screenshots below. These are taken with registration off.




















Note: You can also see that the image is skewed on blue and red, interestingly, both are opposite.


(continued onto the next post)


----------



## rajdude

*Now for the bad news:*
The convergence is still not stable.


I wonder what is causing this?


Here is what I did. I did a full convergence. It took me around an hr. Even when I was doing it the convergence was drifting a bit. Anyway, finally I did it and when I was done, it was not drifting at all. I guess the amp board's temp may have stabilized.


So far so good, happy as I was, I went off to sleep at 5 AM.









(I know I need to get a life







)


Today evening, I again got a chance to switch on the PJ, I find the convergence is off again.









Here is how much it is off:











I immediately thought that it is due to the cold convergence amp board. So I let it warm up to normal working temp by running a moving image for 30 minutes or so. To my dismay, it is still the same. What's up? Why is my convergence not stable? What I am doing wrong here?










To provide more details I will post all I have here.

*My PJ is hung a little tilted as shown below*











This may contribute to the fact that I have to max out the keystone controls. Today I did not max out the keystone (I left it at 20) and this resulted in a keystoned pic which looks like this:











The reason why I have to tilt it downwards is because my screen is only 72 wide. Hence the PJ is pretty close to the screen. Hence the downward tilt.


Is this contributing to the drifting convergence?


Here is what my HT room looks like.











I wish I could accommodate a wider screen but those speakers are just too wide and the room not wide enough. I just love those speakers too much to get rid of them. I do not want a perf. screen either, so I'll live with a small screen until I move to a bigger house.


Today, I am really frustrated, I don't mind spending time on this PJ but once I set it up, I don't expect to do convergence every time I wanna watch a movie. This drifting convergence is really driving me nuts. I have already done everything I can, I wonder what more I can do to cure this problem.

*PLEASE HELP !*


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Oh yes! *Please excuse the looks of the HT room.







*

I am still in the process of constructing the HT... if only this damn PJ would work properly. You can see blue painters tape. I just painted UPW white and framed it with 2" tape. I also have a da-lite screen (seen folded in the image) But it is smaller 64" wide and also flaps around.

All this is makeshift until I get this PJ issue solved.



man ! I swear....I should have bought a sony! I may just want to hang my 1270 up there soon. At least it was stable.


----------



## Clarence

This is a shot in the dark, but I recalled an old thread from Bob Wood about ampro convergence drift:

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...57#post3478657


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is a shot in the dark, but I recalled an old thread from Bob Wood about ampro convergence drift:
> 
> http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...57#post3478657




Uh Oh,







and I thought I was the only one up at 1:30 AM reading AVA forums !!


Thanks Clarence, I'll read it now.


----------



## rajdude

Well, that thread's "solution" sounds resonable. I'd be REALLY surprised if that fixes my convergence issues.


I am taking out my de-oxit sprays now. It is 2:45 in the







morning!


----------



## stefuel

I'm studying the oriantation of the projector to the screen and I can tell you for sure that it's mounted incorrectly. The projector is too high in relation to the screen which is why it's tilted down dramatically. To start, the base of the projector should be level and somewhere below the viewable top of the screen. Even if you move your screen as high as it can go, the projector will need to come down over a foot to be level and point at the center of the screen. Your vert keystone must be cranking. Mounting the projector correctly is the best place to start if you expect stability. I forget what size screen you have, but if you give me the size and it's height (center of the screen) in relation to the ceiling that the projectors mounted to, I will give you the correct projector mounting height. I'm sure the 4200 and 4600 mounting instructions are the same or close enough. I'd be willing to bet that this is the cause of your convergence board heat.


Chip


----------



## rajdude

Hi Chip,

Yes, I agree that the PJ is mounted incorrectly. I do have to use a lot of keystone. But I do not have the convergence board overheating issue anymore. I swapped that board with a x600's and that issue is gone.


Anyway the keystone is not done by the convergence board, it is done by the HOT.


But going back to your observation and recommendation....I doubt if just tilting the PJ down should cause the convergence to shift.


I have another idea and I will elaborate it in the following post.


-Rajiv


----------



## Clarence

But if you're maxing out the keystone setting and still getting keystone, that's stressing the electronics. I'd be interested in seeing if your convergence drift improved if you set it on a table mount for a temporary setup.


Also, IIRC, the 4200's scan reversal is more like this:











But I think Bob's drift fix was for this type of Ampro scan reversal card:


----------



## stefuel

At the expense of me sounding like a A-hole, if you knowingly mounted it incorrectly, how do you justify complaining about the result. I'm not trying to bust your balls here. I'm trying to help but you gotta do the work










Chip


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> At the expense of me sounding like a A-hole, if you knowingly mounted it incorrectly, how do you justify complaining about the result. I'm not trying to bust your balls here. I'm trying to help but you gotta do the work
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chip




chip,

I do understand your point here and no offence taken










...but as I said in my earlier post...I do not think that the keystone is causing the drift. I have the keystone set to 20...not maximised....hence the 'keystoned' image. (see my photo above). If this PJ is designed properly, it shoudl be able to "take it". I have checked other things in the convergence too....almost all of them are within 'acceptable range'




Anyway, as I said, I have another idea why this is happening and I do not think it is really a "convergence shift" anymore.


More in a minute.


----------



## rajdude

I have a totally different idea why all this convergence drift this is happening.


I noticed that the picture is not getting distorted, as it probably should happen if it is really a convergence drift. It is more like someone just knocked the whole CRT a bit to the right/left and upwards/downwards (depending upon which one is in question - red or blue)


I think it is my tubes which are shifting a little when the PJ heats up to normal working temp. Then when the PJ cools down, the tubes end up incorrectly aligned.


This is magnified due to the fact that I have my vertical shiempflug totally maximized. Actually it is so much out' that the springs are not in tension anymore! I think that may explain everything I am experiencing.


I could not sleep properly last night and was thinking about this the whole night. In the morning that was the first thing I told my wife and she was likeyou need to get a life! !! HA HA



Anyway, while doing some search on AVS last night I saw a couple of posts from some one who cured' this problem by some locktite. In my case (I think) I'll need stronger/longer springs for the shiempflug bolts.


But thinking about Clarence's suggestionthat is exactly what I thought in the morning. I think I'll take it down and put it on my wheeled platform. I will pull it back so that it projects a 100 wide image and see that my shiempflug bolts are all tightened correctly. I'll also set it up horizontally.


Lets see if these problems go away or not.


Wish me luck and of course, all suggestions are welcome.


Oh yes, Clarence, you are right, that 4300 + PJ have that separate ckt board for flipping/inverting the image. All I did last night was to spray and clean all connectors using deoxit spray.


That did not help


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But if you're maxing out the keystone setting and still getting keystone, that's stressing the electronics. I'd be interested in seeing if your convergence drift improved if you set it on a table mount for a temporary setup.



Nope







I am NOT maxing out the keystone anymore....see my rather long posts above...it is set to 20 now. I used to but not this time (I setup the convergence again from scratch last night)


But I'll do as you say...I'll take it down soon.


Thanks!


Hey Did you get my PM?


----------



## stefuel

The reason you are maxed out with the springs is because the projector is mounted wrong. When you mount it correctly, the problem will be solved.

My last reply till you mount it correctly.


Chip


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The reason you are maxed out with the springs is because the projector is mounted wrong. When you mount it correctly, the problem will be solved.
> 
> My last reply till you mount it correctly.
> 
> 
> Chip



I know that Chip, and I admitted it in my post, above.


I am going to reposition it to verify if that is really the problem. I think It is becoming clear that I cannot use this PJ in my current room (because it is too small)




I guess that my longs posts make my points unclear to people. Sorry  I'll try to be brief.


BTW, thanks for responding.


-Rajiv


----------



## tse

Your projector should be mounted as shown in the drawing. If it's off you will get unpredictable results.


----------



## tse

The projector won't work right if mounted too far from ideal.


----------



## rajdude

I understand now and thanks for the diagram, tse. I mounted the Ampro tilted downwards because of two reasons:-


1. the dimensions of my room and,

2. my old projector (a Sony 1270) let me tilt it from horizontal. It has special retractable legs for that purpose. Hence I thought it was OK to tilt PJs.


I am in the process of correcting the mounting now.


----------



## rajdude

Folks,

I have done all I can with this PJ and I'm almost ready to give up.








The convergence drift is not going away.

As many of you have advised me, I have corrected the mounting of the PJ. Here is how it looks like now.










The convergence still behaves exactly the same. It drifts off by EXACTLY the same distance every night. EVEN after the "correct" mounting of the PJ Here is how it looks like:











I have also pulled it as far back as I can on the ceiling mount. The image is around around 90 inches wide.


All bolts are tight, I did not even do a full shiempflug adjustment because I was afraid that loose bolts may be causing the tubes/lenses to shift as they warm up. The center of the screen is in pretty good focus. Anyway a shiempflug has nothing to do with convergence drift.


So I did a full convergence yesterday night and was happy with the results. The image was awesome. I went off the sleep and today evening I switched off the PJ. To my utter disappointment the convergence again drifted!


I thought maybe it is some memory problem. Not so ! because as I was re-aligning the center cross, I noticed that even within a span of a few minutes the convergence was drifting.


Now I do know that the PJ needs to be at a stable working temp but I've also tried leaving a video on for like 30 minutes so that the convergence snaps into place but nothing happens!

NOTE:

>>> I have made 100% sure that none of the convergence controls are not beyond that 25 or 75 range.


>>> Static keystone is at around 25 now.


>>> No board/heatsink in the PJ is overheating (that includes the convergence board)


>>> I have cleaned all connectors with deoxit



If someone has any ideas please let me know. I have invested a lot of time in this PJ but it still does not work properly. There is something fundamentally wrong with either me or this PJ.


As of for now I'm utterly disappointed with this PJ.










-Rajiv


----------



## ThurmanWitte

Probably some of the components on the registration board or registration amp board are drifting. Your projector is probably 12-15 years old, so the electrolytic caps may be pretty crappy by now.


----------



## Dion^Swamp

That's sad news, my own 4200 seemed to drift a bit to begin with, but after I did a quick holy-focus routine (physical alignment/astig/magnetics/repeat) my needs were very small and it stabilized after about 20 minutes warm up time.


Before junking the PJ do try to swap out all the electrolytics (starting with the convergence board) my bet is that those caps are getting old and are far more temperature sensitive than new ones, if some of them are used to couple the convergence signal then that might very well be the reason for the drifting.


Even if the caps are only used as decoupling for the powersupply then changing ESR and capacitance with temperature could also cause drifting.


Electrolytics are still the only components that get worn down by sitting on a shelf, so even if there is no logical way to link electrolytics to convergence I'd still change them.


----------



## rajdude

Ok guys,

(If anyone is interested in my rants) I have some little good news and (again) bad news.

*The good news is that I have found the solution to this drifting.*

As most of posts here suggest the convergence drift is caused by rising temperatures. A simple test was to do this:











Just put a fan and see. YES! The convergence becomes stable.


Then I used a heat gun to pin-point what is actually causing this drift. It is the components on the heatsink shown circled below










Now why does is this circuit so sensitive to temperature changesI do not know. Maybe more experienced people like tse and others may be able to explain. But it is how it is. I guess I need a fan on that heatsink.


Dion and Thurman, I do not think it is the capacitors because my convergence amp board seems to be pretty new. Look carefully in the image below.











Notice that the white silk-screened VDC Display systems ??? Yes, I have swapped this board with a newer, improved one.


*So much for the good news, here is the bad news.*


I noticed that my static focus has stopped working. Earlier only the dynamic focus was not working. The static was working because I did a full astig/flare some days back. After that I tried replacing the blown fuse on the focus board. Of course it blew away again. I guess in that process it took out the static section too.


Tse, any ideas what can be done to check the static section of that EM focus board?


Thanks for all your responses.

Rajiv


----------



## tse

The section that you have circled is a current limit circuit. Under normal conditions the transistors are fully turned on. They are like a short. About the same voltage that comes in, goes out. If the current level that they are set to limit is exceeded they will begin to turn down their conduction and present a resistance between the power supply and the registration amplifiers. This makes them run hot. If they get hot enough it will trip the thermostat on the little heatsink. This turns off power to the registration amplifiers. The little heatsink that you have circled should normally run cool. If it is hot you are using too much registration.


The registration amplifier will not draw too much current if the mechanical set-up is correct. It seems like you are trying to use more registration power than the system was designed to use.


----------



## overclkr

Wow, that's some pretty damn good focus. Maybe you should just sell that projector to me......


Cliff


----------



## stefuel

Well, I have some good news/bad news for you. The good news, your getting closer to the solution. The bad news is it's probably your fault. If you look at the three items circled, (two transistors with that round device in the middle) that round thing is the thermal fuse. When it get's hot, it cuts the power to the convergence registration board. This is the same as turning the registration off durring setup. When it cools off, it re-sets it's self. It makes a click sound when it does it's thing. If you can duplicate the drift by making it pop out, then your setup is incorrect. When the registration is off, the center should stay aligned. You may have pointed your guns with the reg on. The first thing I would do is to check all the retaining screws holding all the transistors to the heat sink. they sometimes loosen up. There may be two of those thermals on that sink. You can guess which one is popping by feeling the sink in the area of the themal. Which ever one is getting the hottest is most likely popping first. When the PJ is out of convergence, you could try jumping them out one at a time to see if the convergence pops back in (with insulated clips). This is just temporary. You can not leave them jumped out. Note: If the guns are not pointed with the registration OFF, then you are still over-driving something in the convergence circuit. In my opinion, one or two of those thermals were popped WHILE doing your final convergence. they re-set after you shut it off and remain re-set when you power it back up the next day giving you mis-convergence. I'll bet you noticed that the static moved while you were doing the setup and you compensated using red and blue shift to line up the center.


This is what I'd do right now. With the channel you are on , do a 29


Code:


 (clear active channel) then do a 55 [code] to turn the registration off. With your source on, do a 4 [test] and cycle through the available internal test patterns using the step button till you get a cross pattern. Re-point the guns so that the vertical lines at the center overlap. Turn the registration back on 55 [code] and do the convergence over again.

One note while in the registration off mode. The vertical and horizontal center lines of all three colors should be very close to plum and level. If one or more of these seems twisted, you may need to loosen the clamp on the convergenc yoke and turn it slightly to straighten them out. If these are corrected, you will use less convergence and in turn less heat.


It would be very interesting if you could post a picture of a test pattern with the registration off prior to doing anything else first.


But what do I know? I'm just a dumb-ass country boy.


Chip


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *overclkr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow, that's some pretty damn good focus. Maybe you should just sell that projector to me......



dude, I did not really understand that comment.









Are you joking/sarcastic or saying the PJ's focus is good?


----------



## rajdude

Chip and tse and others,

I think there is some confusion about my convergence drift issue.
*Hence, please let me clarify:*

Point to be noted #1
*The drift is not huge...The convergence drifts by just one or two pixel width.*

Please see the 'after drift' screen-shot here:










This is a close-up of the center of the screen.


Point to be noted #2

*The convergence board is NOT overheating anymore*

Even without the fan it stablizes at around 100F which is not too hot....just nice and warm.



I'll reply to others' comments in the evening when I have photographic images of my mechanical setup.



[My sincere thanks to everyone helping me out here.]


-Rajiv


----------



## overclkr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> dude, I did not really understand that comment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you joking/sarcastic or saying the PJ's focus is good?



I'm saying your focus looks good!


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *overclkr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm saying your focus looks good!



Oh now I understand! you are joking.

Of course that focus is not good. My focus board is dead!










Hey, didn't we meet at Art's?


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Chip and tse and others,
> 
> I think there is some confusion about my convergence drift issue.
> *Hence, please let me clarify:*
> 
> Point to be noted #1
> *The drift is not huge...The convergence drifts by just one or two pixel width.*
> 
> Please see the 'after drift' screen-shot here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a close-up of the center of the screen.
> 
> 
> Point to be noted #2
> 
> *The convergence board is NOT overheating anymore*
> 
> Even without the fan it stablizes at around 100F which is not too hot....just nice and warm.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll reply to others' comments in the evening when I have photographic images of my mechanical setup.
> 
> 
> 
> [My sincere thanks to everyone helping me out here.]
> 
> 
> -Rajiv



The point I'm trying to make here is, if you do a 55


Code:


 (registration off) and it still looks like this, then the guns are pointed wrong. Just show us a picture of what you see on the screen with the registation turned off.


Chip


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The point I'm trying to make here is, if you do a 55
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> (registration off) and it still looks like this, then the guns are pointed wrong. Just show us a picture of what you see on the screen with the registation turned off.
> 
> 
> Chip
> [/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> I fully understand and totally agree with your point Chip, but i need to get back home first to take pics. [IMG]http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
> 
> 
> Thanks for all your tips!


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The section that you have circled is a current limit circuit. Under normal conditions the transistors are fully turned on. They are like a short. About the same voltage that comes in, goes out. If the current level that they are set to limit is exceeded they will begin to turn down their conduction and present a resistance between the power supply and the registration amplifiers. This makes them run hot. If they get hot enough it will trip the thermostat on the little heatsink. This turns off power to the registration amplifiers. The little heatsink that you have circled should normally run cool. If it is hot you are using too much registration.
> 
> 
> The registration amplifier will not draw too much current if the mechanical set-up is correct. It seems like you are trying to use more registration power than the system was designed to use.



Thanks tse,

But none of my registration parameters are beyond 25/75. Most are around 50.

*Do you know what the current limit is for that circuit?*

I can put an ammeter to check actual current draw.


That little heatsink never gets "HOT" but it does not run totally cool either. When stablized it is warm at around 80-90 F.

*Will 80 to 90F count as "cool"?*


-Rajiv


----------



## stefuel

Still waiting for those pictures of the test pattern with the registration off. Or have you given up










Chip


----------



## rajdude

Sorry for the delay, Chip.

I wrote this response on Thursday and took the pics on Thu night. But the internet connection was dead at home.


So here goes...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, I have some good news/bad news for you. The good news, your getting closer to the solution. The bad news is it's probably your fault. If you look at the three items circled, (two transistors with that round device in the middle) that round thing is the thermal fuse. When it get's hot, it cuts the power to the convergence registration board. This is the same as turning the registration off durring setup. When it cools off, it re-sets it's self. It makes a click sound when it does it's thing. If you can duplicate the drift by making it pop out, then your setup is incorrect.



No I cannot 'pop it out'....no click sound. That ckt never gets hot. Stays just warm. if that ckt cuts power to the reg board, I will lose all registration...right?...but I DO NOT lose all registration.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When the registration is off, the center should stay aligned....
> 
> (snip)
> 
> In my opinion, one or two of those thermals were popped WHILE doing your final convergence. they re-set after you shut it off and remain re-set when you power it back up the next day giving you mis-convergence. I'll bet you noticed that the static moved while you were doing the setup and you compensated using red and blue shift to line up the center.


My center does stay aligned with the reg. off.

Please see below a shot with registration turned off.









REGISTRATION OFF



Ok, now see a screenshot with the registration turned on.









REGISTRATION ON



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One note while in the registration off mode. The vertical and horizontal center lines of all three colors should be very close to plum and level. If one or more of these seems twisted, you may need to loosen the clamp on the convergenc yoke and turn it slightly to straighten them out. If these are corrected, you will use less convergence and in turn less heat.



Ok, here is a shot of a cross pattern with the registration off.










REGISTRATION OFF



As you can see, the horizontal lines are very close to each other. But the vertical lines are a little skewed. Hence I have to use 'vertical skew' control, but not much...I think it is around 55 or lower.


The service manual says that the yoke should be adjusted so that the horizontal lines align as much as possible. It says not to worry about the vertical lines.


I will try adjusting the yoke but I think we can get only one aligned either vertical or horizontal.
*Were you able to get both aligned?*





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> But what do I know? I'm just a dumb-ass country boy.
> 
> 
> Chip



Hmm... I wonder why you'd say that? Kidding/sarcastic/lonely out there, eh?









Personally, I think you know a lot about these PJs and are a valuable member at AVS Forums.


BTW, I love the area of US where you live. I lived in the New England area for 3-4 years. A couple of those years were in Burlington, MA and Tewksbury, MA. The islands are really pretty. I miss it all...the lighthouses and the cape. I just wish they had more jobs there.


----------



## rajdude

bump:


Quick q for tse at : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post7001246 


Power rating/limit of that ckt?



Also, where is Chip?


----------



## overclkr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, didn't we meet at Art's?



We sure did! Hope you get your problem fixed dude.


Cliff


----------



## rajdude

bump (again):


Quick q for tse above or at : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...6&post7001246


----------



## rajdude

*Update:*

I am not giving up on this PJ {I guess I am a sucker for punishment or what?}

WHY you ask, right?


Well, when it IS working (converged and stable after 15 minutes) it does throw a very nice picture!

















Hey Clarence (if you are reading this) remember I commented the other day that that Barco you were selling (to Dave?) had a VERY nice picture? This Ampro is already putting out a similar picture. AND...the focus board is totally dead AND the glycol is murky AND has not been set up 100% right! So I guess it sure does have potential!

*Progress:*

(1.) I ordered a Red C-element from Brenda at VDC, she says that the $100 does not include shipping and that "includes shipping" thing is a rumor on the internet!


(2.) Then I ordered a set of 2,4,6 pole CPC magnet assemblies from VDC, hoping to get rid of the triangular dots.

Funny that the Tech there (Nathan Thom) said that the Ampro 4200's Focus board has a bad reputation for reliability! Ya, tell ME about that!










(3.) I bought an Oscilloscope, a Powersupply, a function generator and a Sony 1271 Switcher on e-bay! I'm hoping to get that focus board repaired and look into why this @#$% convergence drifts.










Using the scope...I hope to get the sub-brite/contrast/gain adjustment done properly. I think a PC's software test pattern generator can be used as a direct replacement for a Video test pattern generator, right?










The PJ is still up there, I'm building a workbench and storage shelving in the basement first. No space to work plus I end up spending an hour to find some tool before using it!! HA HA


Lastly, I'm still waiting for tse to shed some light on the current ratings of that convergence board. Complete details are above.


-Rajiv


----------



## madpoet

Raj, you are a trooper







. I pray I NEVER have to go through what you are with my Ampro!


----------



## tse

Finally had a chance to check the current limit circuit on the 3/4600 registration amplifier. It will limit at a nominal 1.9257576 amps. Had to recalculate that one.


Whenever the amplifiers tried to draw more current than that the limit circuit would essentially regulate the current to that value by turning down the conduction of the power transistors on the little aluminum plate. That would cause the plate to get hot and if it got hot enough the thermostat would trip which turned off the 25VDC that went to the output amps.


This all limited the maximum power draw from the LVPS to less than 100W for the registration amps. If you were using 100W for registration you were doing something wrong.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Finally had a chance to check the current limit circuit on the 3/4600 registration amplifier. It will limit at a nominal 1.9257576 amps. Had to recalculate that one.
> 
> 
> Whenever the amplifiers tried to draw more current than that the limit circuit would essentially regulate the current to that value by turning down the conduction of the power transistors on the little aluminum plate. That would cause the plate to get hot and if it got hot enough the thermostat would trip which turned off the 25VDC that went to the output amps.
> 
> 
> This all limited the maximum power draw from the LVPS to less than 100W for the registration amps. If you were using 100W for registration you were doing something wrong.



*WOW, tse, you are my HERO !*
























This will enable me to verify what is happening in that circuit once and for all !
Thanks a million!


I'll keep you posted on the progress.


Thanks again!


----------



## rajdude

Ok, I finally got a chance to work on the focus board.


As others predicted the MOSFET on the power supply board is shorted out. The power diode is also shorted out. I found the Diode [FES16JT ] on Mouser, but no-one has the MOSFET. I called Mouser and they say their techs will look for an equivalent part.



The schematic specifies IXTH5N100 but my board has APT1002R4BN

It is a N-channel High Voltage Power MOSFET with these characteristics:


1000 volts, 5 Amp, 2.4 Ohm Rds


If anyone has an semiconductor equivalent book and can look up this information, I'll really appreciate it.


I did a google search but could not find anything online.


TIA!


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

I just ordered a Mouser Equivalent for the MOSFET - STP5NB100

TO-220AB 1000 volts 5.0 amp 2.4 ohms

It's specs are the same as IXTH5N100.


Wish me luck !


----------



## tse

Oops. The STP part is TO-220 package. Your original part is TO-247. The closest sub that Mouser stocks is STW9NK90Z. It is 900V but that will work ok. Peak voltage is less than 700V.


Be sure to check the 22 ohm resistor that is between the PWM chip and the mosfet. If it is gonzo the PWM chip is probably fried, too.


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oops. The STP part is TO-220 package. Your original part is TO-247. The closest sub that Mouser stocks is STW9NK90Z. It is 900V but that will work ok. Peak voltage is less than 700V.
> 
> 
> Be sure to check the 22 ohm resistor that is between the PWM chip and the mosfet. If it is gonzo the PWM chip is probably fried, too.



You are right, tse, the TO220 package is a little smaller and the pin spacing is different, but I thought I could just spread the legs a bit...


The main reason why I chose the other one was because all specs including the Rds was matching with the originally spec --- 2.4 ohms.


The one you suggest has a Rds of 1.1 Ohms. I wonder if that makes a difference.???

















I do like the 8 amp rating though! Much better than 5 amp.



Thanks for the tip about the chip.







I will check it out tonight.


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

One more thing, tse,

What is the voltage INPUT to this power supply circuit?


Also, I am wondering why bother making a SMPS for just a simple 40 v DC. Maybe there is a lot of current involved???


----------



## tse

The main input to the supply is about 300VDC. The output power is 80 or 100W (2 to 2.5A @ +40V). Something like that. The reason for the supply, in the first place, is to allow use of the model 2000/4000 SMPS while implementing magnetic focus. The electrostatic focus units did focus without needing that 80-100W.


Oh, yeah. It is usually better to have lower resistance in your mosfets. Just like have more current capability.


----------



## ThurmanWitte

Rajdude,


I'm pretty sure the IXYS part can also be found on the HOT board in the 2000/4000. If the part you ordered does not work you might try to locate a spare HOT board. I have A 2000 HOT board that I have cannabalized some parts from. If you want, I can remove one of the IXTH5N100 mosfets from it.


----------



## rajdude

HI Thurman ,

Sorry for the delay in my response and thanks for the offer.

I'll let you know soon if I need them.


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

So I finally got some time to work on the PJ. I totally disassembled it and did the following mods:

Enlarged holes for all three fans
Changed Glycol
Installed red C element
Installed new CPC magnets (astigmator magnets) which have all three poles (2,4 AND 6)
Painted it black


After reassembly I carefully switched it on. No errors on the LCD. The new FM board's PSU is supplying +40V to the focus power amps. [THANKS a MILLION TO SCOTT!]


But soon I smelt burning plastic.














After sniffing around, I found out that some resistors on the registration amp board are overheating now.


Specifically, R69, R49 are heating up like crazy!







Please note that I have the 3600/4600 reggie amp board {81010A) in my 4200. It was working just fine for a few months now. I checked the connector on the cable going to the yoke boards, I see two pins are nearly shorted out on all three tubes. I guess it is because of the windings, right?


I have connected the yoke interface plugs for front table config as per the Ampro 2000's manual. Looks like something is not configured right


Apart from checking for shorts, I am stumped. PLEASE HELP!


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

I think I know what the problem is here.

I just need to rotate the horizontal & vertical registration plugs on the yokes.











I remembered this after I looked at the circuit diagrams of the old and new reg boards. The new registration amp board (transplanted into my 4200) was taken from a 3600/4600. Those power amps invert the signals. Hence I had to rotate the connectors on the registration board to make it all work properly.


When I reassembled the PJ, I just connected them as per the old board. Hence the reg board is not working properly. I will test out my theory tonight (after I get back home from work)


I just hope I did not damage anything










-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

Guys,

Has anyone tried to reinforce Ampro PJs' case hinges?


Mine are broken (as most I've seen).


-Rajiv


----------



## rajdude

How long before they will archive a old thread ?


----------



## madpoet

A while... it only happens periodically.


----------



## AVWERKS

You may want to loose the hinges along with the hood...


On my second 4600 I have set up in the garage I did an ON-OFF-BACK on again temperature check with a Fluke temperature gauge


I let it run for about 1 1/2 hours at each check point at an ambient temp of 23C constant


The hood alone adds 5 to 6C under the best thermal conditons...


This is set on saw horses about 3 feet off the ground. I can imagine in a small room the trapped ceiling heat and it's recycled trapped heat is going to make it even worse. I hate to do it ,but in this interest of my 1st 4600 already mounted on the ceiling downstairs, I might stick the hood on it (insert arrgh) and report back with any negatives


I haven't been following your thread as I don't have a 4200 and can add nothing other than a quick glance thru it, but chip and tse are dead on with the height/screen dim's


The Ampro's run cooler when their locations are level and slightly inside the screen height, or at least half the body splits the top image resulting in better focusing at the furthest distances ie. bottom.


Love those Magneplanar's!! All you need is some big and nasty Krell's to make them sing!


Regards

David


----------



## rajdude

It has been a while since I visited this thread and noticed David's reply.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AVWERKS* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I can imagine in a small room the trapped ceiling heat and it's recycled trapped heat is going to make it even worse.




Well, the HT room is getting ready and I am planning to counter this problem with a 6" cooling duct for the PJ. I plan to connect it to the two belly fan opening and sucking air out of the PJ using a quiet inline fan mounted remotely. (no belly fans in the PJ!)


How about that ?


----------



## rajdude

So I finally got the PJ working again. It is hanging from the ceiling.


The dark paint on the room's walls REALLY helps!



Is there anything I can do further which can improve this PJ's focus?

Also, how to improve convergence? I run out of range in some settings.


Now that dreaded convergence drift is not there anymore (YAHOO!!)








I still have to let it warm up ......but after that the convergence is stable.


The focus is still not what it should be. Also, running the HTPC at 1024x768 is relatively sharp. But if I increase the rez. to 1280x720 (720p) the image gets soft.










I can see scanlines at 1080i (via the cable box).

At 720p via cable box, the scan lines are still there but pretty faint.


The focus is not very sharp in the corners.


Apart from upgrading to a different PJ, what can I do?


----------



## rajdude

Wow!

That sure is an overkill ( the dedicated AC)


If it was overheating, there has got to be something else wrong!


Exactly which board was overheating?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaz782* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Rajdude,
> 
> 
> Thanks for clarifying the BMP image thing.
> 
> 
> Yes I we Ampro'ers need to help out each other as Dion would say!
> 
> I'm sure you must have seen his site.
> 
> 
> I will post some stuff on your other thread about cooling.
> 
> I went overkill really...I have an air-conditioning (spot air conditioner -- located on the second floor ) which has a 120pi duct specifically dedicated for the projector --
> 
> try overheating on me now(!).......actually to be honest it never did...
> 
> but I just wanted to keep it fairly cool with the extreme humid summers we
> 
> have over here....summer were a bit tough....
> 
> 
> It took me a few months to do it cos I had to re-enforce my ceiling with additional
> 
> Ipe beams.
> 
> 
> Will get some more pics and info for you on your other thread which is probably more appropriate.


----------



## shaz782




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow!
> 
> That sure is an overkill ( the dedicated AC)
> 
> 
> If it was overheating, there has got to be something else wrong!
> 
> 
> Exactly which board was overheating?



Rajdude,


Normally nothing overheats, or gave me any problems. But when I had it floor mounted I found that it ran a lot better with the cover off and the lid open (where the registration board is located). When

I decided to mount in on the ceiling I got a dedicated Air-Conditoning unit just to use mainly in the summer (I haven't finished it all yet, but it's almost there, basically I'll be able to control the amount of cool air that flows in also).....due to my room layout my normal air conditioning unit is situated at the far end of the room near the screen and was not really powerful enough to keep the room cool in the summer.


And another reason was that eventually I may take out all the fans....I say I may cos not sure at this stage unless I've tested it a bit more to see how it performs. Or I might just get lower noise fans for the LVPS and the two 80cm fans above the RGB board/Horizontal board etc.... At the moment the belly fans are gone for good. I think on the 4300 the LVPS fan is also 80cm as standard, but would have to measure it to check.



I'll send you some pics in the next few days once I can get hold of my digital camera!


----------



## rajdude

H,mmmm.

that 4300 has 5 fans , eh?


the 4200 has only three, two 80mm belly fans and one 60 mm in the LVPS.


Pics man ! We need to see the pics!











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaz782* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Rajdude,
> 
> 
> Normally nothing overheats, or gave me any problems. But when I had it floor mounted I found that it ran a lot better with the cover off and the lid open (where the registration board is located). When
> 
> I decided to mount in on the ceiling I got a dedicated Air-Conditoning unit just to use mainly in the summer (I haven't finished it all yet, but it's almost there, basically I'll be able to control the amount of cool air that flows in also).....due to my room layout my normal air conditioning unit is situated at the far end of the room near the screen and was not really powerful enough to keep the room cool in the summer.
> 
> 
> And another reason was that eventually I may take out all the fans....I say I may cos not sure at this stage unless I've tested it a bit more to see how it performs. Or I might just get lower noise fans for the LVPS and the two 80cm fans above the RGB board/Horizontal board etc.... At the moment the belly fans are gone for good. I think on the 4300 the LVPS fan is also 80cm as standard, but would have to measure it to check.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll send you some pics in the next few days once I can get hold of my digital camera!


----------



## shaz782

Yes 5 in the 4300, 2 120mm belly fans and 3 80mm....shall get pics soon!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> H,mmmm.
> 
> that 4300 has 5 fans , eh?
> 
> 
> the 4200 has only three, two 80mm belly fans and one 60 mm in the LVPS.
> 
> 
> Pics man ! We need to see the pics!


----------



## rajdude

Calling all Ampro experts!


I have noticed a couple of new issues other than what I am discussing in the dots thread. So I want to move the ampro related issues to this thread since that dots thread is getting a lot of posts regarding the original topic (which is good!)

*Most of the convergence controls are reversed.*

For example, if I want to move the lines to the left, I have to press the right cursor button (on the wired remote). Same for vertical controls.


I wonder is this why I run out of convergence range.









*Curved top and bottom*


I also have the horizontal (top and bottom) keystone maxed out when the memory is nulled. But even after that the picture has curved top and bottom.



The screen is 86" wide and the PJ is around 120 inches from the screen. For stock HD10 lenses, I guess this is OK.


----------



## rajdude

Ok Chip,

I will try that out tonight.

Thanks!




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is the test pattern I want you to use while playing with the blanking system. See the three vertical lines that look out of place? This is usually caused by the blanking system. This has been discussed here many times in the past. It shows up most on internal test patterns but can cause problems in the projected image.
> 
> 
> Chip



Chip is referring to this image:


----------



## rajdude

I also measured the screen. The screen is actually 86inches wide (NOT the 76 inches I have been posting) I wonder where I got that 76 number. Diagonally (for a 16:9 Image) the image measures around 98.


So I guess this means that I really don't need the HD10L lenses.



Over the weekend, I also moved the PJ a little further back. This filled out the whole screen with 1080i sources. The raster is also maxed out but there is something like 5 mm unused raster on the sides. That should be fine.


I also tilted the PJ back a little bit down. This helps in the convergence. It has raised the image to the top of the painted wall screen.


----------



## rajdude

Chip,

I tried that out yesterday night, and you were right !

By adjusting the left blanking I am able to get rid of the three weird lines (shown in the shot below)


But quite frankly, I did not see an improvement anywhere else. The externally fed test patterns were fine earlier. I did not get a chance to look at them (the wife just does not appreciate the entertainment value of test patterns !







)




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok Chip,
> 
> I will try that out tonight.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chip is referring to this image:


----------



## rajdude

Hey Scott!









Where are you these days ???


That new toy is keeping you busy?




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> Calling all Ampro experts!
> 
> 
> I have noticed a couple of new issues other than what I am discussing in the dots thread. So I want to move the ampro related issues to this thread since that dots thread is getting a lot of posts regarding the original topic (which is good!)
> 
> *Most of the convergence controls are reversed.*
> 
> For example, if I want to move the lines to the left, I have to press the right cursor button (on the wired remote). Same for vertical controls.
> 
> 
> I wonder is this why I run out of convergence range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Curved top and bottom*
> 
> 
> I also have the horizontal (top and bottom) keystone maxed out when the memory is nulled. But even after that the picture has curved top and bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> The screen is 86" wide and the PJ is around 120 inches from the screen. For stock HD10 lenses, I guess this is OK.


----------



## shaz782

Hi Rajiv,


Here are some pics of the vents that I've used.


#Pic 1 PJ with two outgoing vents and 1 incoming cold air (air-conditioned)



#Pic 2 Closeup of outgoing vents, these are 100mm pi ducts.



#Pic 3 Vents inside PJ


#Pic 4 Another pic of PJ this time I'm using two cold vents, one for the PSupply.



#Pic 5 I am using this type of AC fan, but the one I'm using has a 100mm pi vent connected to it, this is an old type I used for another projector. The current one is inside the ceiling in another room and difficult to take pics!


I will probably go for the configuration shown in #Pic 4, though all this will be boxed in at the back, so most of the vents won't be visible. I'm still experimenting! Today I spent 3 hours converging this @1080p coming out from a Faroudja DVP 3000 (SD DVD), it looked very nice! But still have to do grayscale and G2 settings. I haven't even touched astigmation yet. Anyway running it for 6 hours today, the system temperature was almost constant around 23 degrees and PS temperature was again almost constant around 21/22 degrees centigrade....I checked evey half an hour....and it just didn't shift...and the picture did look pretty amazing. I still have to do some more work on it though, need to move my screen a bit forward, get the rear hushbox done, and hopefully get HD-DVD fed into it!


Shaz


----------



## shaz782

Remaining pics,


----------



## rajdude

Excellent work Shaz ! I must say it looks like an octopus now!


I guess after being boxed it it wont look so ....ummm.... shall I call it ..."strange" ?


I like how you raised the horizontal supports off the PJ's belly by using the bolts. (seen in Pic 2) I will have to do something like that since the front support partially covers the fan openings.


I bought 4" start collars / flanges for providing a secure transition to the ducts to the PJ. I still have not done anything to my PJ. Maybe tonight I will get some time to work on it. The wife is not home tonight !


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Scott!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you these days ???
> 
> 
> That new toy is keeping you busy?



I've been working on this. The simulations show about flat response to 80MHz. No promises. If it makes it then 1080p will work alot better than with standard 4200 CRT cards. Maybe the RGB board won't take too much work. This is kinda a long shot but worth a little time and effort.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Hi Scott, while I have your attention, do you have any idea on solving this problem:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8560304 


Basically,

I run out of convergence range in width linearity and top/bottom keystone.

and my convergence controls work in reverse


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Scott, while I have your attention, do you have any idea on solving this problem:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8560304
> 
> 
> Basically,
> 
> I run out of convergence range in width linearity and top/bottom keystone.
> 
> and my convergence controls work in reverse



Not sure if this works with a 4200 but press 33


Code:


 and read the results on the remotes LCD display. It sounds as if it's set up for rear projection or some other projection format. If you have a owners manual double check all your sweep connections.


Chip


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> Calling all Ampro experts!
> 
> 
> I have noticed a couple of new issues other than what I am discussing in the dots thread. So I want to move the ampro related issues to this thread since that dots thread is getting a lot of posts regarding the original topic (which is good!)
> 
> *Most of the convergence controls are reversed.*
> 
> For example, if I want to move the lines to the left, I have to press the right cursor button (on the wired remote). Same for vertical controls.
> 
> 
> I wonder is this why I run out of convergence range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Curved top and bottom*
> 
> 
> I also have the horizontal (top and bottom) keystone maxed out when the memory is nulled. But even after that the picture has curved top and bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> The screen is 86" wide and the PJ is around 120 inches from the screen. For stock HD10 lenses, I guess this is OK.



On the 4200 projectors, when you change the configuration of the projector (table/ceiling and front/rear) with the deflection connectors on the yoke bds you have to also change the registration connectors. If you look at the pic you can see two connectors with two wires each. The board is labled horiz and vert. Those are the registration connectors. It sounds like you need to unplug them, turn 180 degrees, and plug back in. Then left will be left and vert will be vert. That might be why you run out of range. Also, pay attention to the highlighted areas on the internal test patterns. Use "4" "test" with your video source connected to register. When you adjust SIZE only converge the area between the middle and half way to the edge of the screen. Use the LIN adjustments to do between the middle and edge of the screen.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

33 code gives me this:


Ceiling mounted

Front Projection


This is correct. I have all manuals Ampro made







I use the 4000's manual for the sweep connector settings. They checkout fine.









Running out of ideas now











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not sure if this works with a 4200 but press 33
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> and read the results on the remotes LCD display. It sounds as if it's set up for rear projection or some other projection format. If you have a owners manual double check all your sweep connections.
> 
> 
> Chip
> [/QUOTE]


----------



## rajdude

Hi Scott,

Yes, I did change the deflection AND the registration connectors.

Strangely...The image shift and phase controls do work correctly.










Only the _registration controls dont work_ as they are supposed to.










But note that I swapped out the reg amp board with the one on the 4600? That board's circuit is slightly different. The op-amps are fed with the inverting input instead of the regular input in the older boards. (Remember we discussed this quite some time back.... it is somewhere up in this thread)? Hence the output is inverted.


To counter that, I just inverted the connectors going to the convergence yokes.


*I remember another thing:*

When I had totally dismantled this PJ and then re-assembled it, I forgot that I had to invert the connectors on the reg amp board. As a result the resistors were overheating! I turned those connectors around and things became normal.


I am willing to try anything. if I rotate the reg. connectors on the yoke board...will it hurt anything? (of course I will shut down the PJ first!)


Maybe that will make the registration controls work properly?


But doesn't this do the same thing as rotating the same cable's end on the reg amp board (as above)...and hence overheating resistors.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On the 4200 projectors, when you change the configuration of the projector (table/ceiling and front/rear) with the deflection connectors on the yoke bds you have to also change the registration connectors. If you look at the pic you can see two connectors with two wires each. The board is labled horiz and vert. Those are the registration connectors. It sounds like you need to unplug them, turn 180 degrees, and plug back in. Then left will be left and vert will be vert. That might be why you run out of range. Also, pay attention to the highlighted areas on the internal test patterns. Use "4" "test" with your video source connected to register. When you adjust SIZE only converge the area between the middle and half way to the edge of the screen. Use the LIN adjustments to do between the middle and edge of the screen.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## tse

The orientation of the convergence coil connectors will not change the power level of anything. It just causes the opposite thing to happen as far as convergence is concerned. I suggest that you plug the two position connectors in the direction that gives proper movement on the screen. Just reverse them and turn on the projector. Don't make adjustments, just let it run and satisfy yourself that all is well. You will have to completely redo registration. Everything will be opposite of what it should be.


Scott


----------



## shaz782

Yes, the vents do look a bit "octopus like", once the box goes up it will all dissapear.....and so should the octopus!


Raising the horizontol supports was handy for the ducts, and also for tightening the bolts above from the mount -- makes it a lot easier to work with.


Well, post some pics when u've done your ducts!


Shaz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Excellent work Shaz ! I must say it looks like an octopus now!
> 
> 
> I guess after being boxed it it wont look so ....ummm.... shall I call it ..."strange" ?
> 
> 
> I like how you raised the horizontal supports off the PJ's belly by using the bolts. (seen in Pic 2) I will have to do something like that since the front support partially covers the fan openings.
> 
> 
> I bought 4" start collars / flanges for providing a secure transition to the ducts to the PJ. I still have not done anything to my PJ. Maybe tonight I will get some time to work on it. The wife is not home tonight !


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The orientation of the convergence coil connectors will not change the power level of anything. It just causes the opposite thing to happen as far as convergence is concerned. I suggest that you plug the two position connectors in the direction that gives proper movement on the screen. Just reverse them and turn on the projector. Don't make adjustments, just let it run and satisfy yourself that all is well. You will have to completely redo registration. Everything will be opposite of what it should be.
> 
> 
> Scott




hey Scott and Chip!


A BIG THANKS (again!)


Your hint was absolutely right. I reversed the convergence connectors on the yoke board and both issues got solved in a jiffy ! No overheating resistors too !

















I no longer have curved top and bottoms, I have plenty of range in all controls. The convergence is spot on ! I pic never looked better. I will post some screenshots soon.
















I just cant thank you enough!










Now, only if we can get rid of the lines caused by SMPS and I am a happy camper!


----------



## shaz782

Rajiv,


That's great news! Glad to hear u got the convergence thing sorted at last. Must feel really nice hey?!


Shaz


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hey Scott and Chip!
> 
> 
> A BIG THANKS (again!)
> 
> 
> Your hint was absolutely right. I reversed the convergence connectors on the yoke board and both issues got solved in a jiffy ! No overheating resistors too !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I no longer have curved top and bottoms, I have plenty of range in all controls. The convergence is spot on ! I pic never looked better. I will post some screenshots soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just cant thank you enough!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, only if we can get rid of the lines caused by SMPS and I am a happy camper!



"Scott and Chip"? Don't you mean Wayne and Garth?

We're not worthy, We're not worthy...


----------



## rajdude

Hey Scott!

I was just wondering if you got some time this long weekend to work out those SMPS lines on your 4200?


----------



## tse

Finally dived in. I moved the 2000 out of the way and set the 4200 in place. That took alot of ambition 'cuz I was wanting to work on something else and didn't really feel like working on projectors all weekend. My projector is my television. I haven't owned a direct view TV for more than 20 years. The 2000 was looking so good. So it's pretty much set-up. It does look a little better than the 2000 but not as good as it should. I'm thinking the coolant fluid in this thirteen year old projector is a little cloudy. The sharpness just isn't there.


The projector has been on continuously for eight hours. Guess it isn't going to blow-up right away.


The extra "lines" are there whenever the registration is turned on. It looks like SMPS noise but might be something else. I'll tackle it once the focus is like it should be.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Scott, when I first got this 4200, I felt the same way.

The coolant was very murky and the image was not clear. Once I changed the coolant, the image improved dramatically.


You gotta change the glycol, extremely easy on these Ampros....but of course you dont need me to tell you that










As for improving the focus and the lines....I am waiting with bated breath....










I highly recommend swapping the Reg amp board with one from a 3/4600. It is a direct swap. MUCH better convergence! You may have one lying around.


Just one look at that heatsink on the stock 4200's reg amp and you know it all !


----------



## Ray Cendroski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The extra "lines" are there whenever the registration is turned on. It looks like SMPS noise but might be something else. I'll tackle it once the focus is like it should be.
> 
> 
> Scott



Scott,


I'm another guy who has the same "line" problem on my 4200 (for the last 6 years). You're right - I never noticed, but it goes away when the registration is turned off. The first thing I did was to re-cap the SMPS. It improved the image quite a bit, but the extra line mess didn't go away.


It must be a common 4200 problem. I too will be very gratefull if you can find the problem.


Interestingly enough, my 4200 uses exactly the same P/N reg amp board as my 4600 (which hasn't replaced the 4200 yet).


Ray


----------



## tse

My 2000 didn't have this problem and I'm pretty sure that it has the same registration board. The difference being the 4200 has the green convergence option. The output amps might be different, too. Do you guys have the green option with your sets?


Scott


----------



## Ray Cendroski

Scott,


My 4200 doesn't have the green convergance option. That's great that you found one with the option.


I probably told you before, but I had a pair of zero hour NOS 2000G that I recently sold to friends. I once tried to stack them, and I remember checking with Elite Video about cost to upgrade to the COG option. When I found out I'd have to take out a second mortgage to modify them, I gave up on the idea. They told me that I'd also have to swap out the CPU modules to get the software upgrade to control the registration board.


When I set up the first 2000 at my friend's house using a good screen, I could have kicked myself for selling them. The picture was drop dead beautiful, and rock solid stable. It had that elusive 3-D picture quality about it. Really a great little projector.


Ray


----------



## albertsacoustics

Hello


I am looking for a Ampro 4600 motherboard.I will upgrade my 4300 to a 4600.I have all other

parts from two 3600 but the moterboard is different. I change the focusboard and the focuscoils from the 3600 to the 4300 and the focus becomes mutch better.I also change the

neckboards.


Regards

Piet


----------



## rajdude

Scott,

How do I find out if my PJ has this convergence on green option?

Also, what is this option and what does it do?


-Rajiv



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My 2000 didn't have this problem and I'm pretty sure that it has the same registration board. The difference being the 4200 has the green convergence option. The output amps might be different, too. Do you guys have the green option with your sets?
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## tse

There are a bunch of little daughter boards attached to the registration board for the green convergence option. Some of them are for contrast modulation.


I took them off and though it might have reduced the noise there was still some there. There was also an I2C bus error diplayed on the remote control.


The 2000 has a later right hand section than the 4200. That might be the difference. I'll try to find out if they can be swapped and compare the noise level.


Both have center section with p/n 80892. Right hand section of 4200 is 80893. The 2000 has 81289.


Scott


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Scott,
> 
> 
> My 4200 doesn't have the green convergance option. That's great that you found one with the option.
> 
> 
> I probably told you before, but I had a pair of zero hour NOS 2000G that I recently sold to friends. I once tried to stack them, and I remember checking with Elite Video about cost to upgrade to the COG option. When I found out I'd have to take out a second mortgage to modify them, I gave up on the idea. They told me that I'd also have to swap out the CPU modules to get the software upgrade to control the registration board.
> 
> 
> When I set up the first 2000 at my friend's house using a good screen, I could have kicked myself for selling them. The picture was drop dead beautiful, and rock solid stable. It had that elusive 3-D picture quality about it. Really a great little projector.
> 
> 
> Ray



Yeah, the 2000s were nice little projectors. The 4200 has all the same bds except for the mother bd and focus modulator. There were several revision levels, though. My 4200 is a 1993 model. My 2000 was built several years later, very near the end of Ampro.


EV was jiving you about the CPU exchange. This 4200, with the options, has the older, long CPU card. Probably just an EEprom change needed to install the options.


Scott


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *albertsacoustics* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
> 
> I am looking for a Ampro 4600 motherboard.I will upgrade my 4300 to a 4600.I have all other
> 
> parts from two 3600 but the moterboard is different. I change the focusboard and the focuscoils from the 3600 to the 4300 and the focus becomes mutch better.I also change the
> 
> neckboards.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Piet



The main difference between the two mother boards is the 4600 was built to meet UL (the US version of VDE) specs. There were some spacing changes made between connectors with higher voltages. I don't remember any big differences other than that. I'll try to find more details but I think it wouldn't take too much work to adapt a 4300 mother bd to a 4600.


Scott


----------



## albertsacoustics

Hello

Yes it is hard to find the difference because it is 3 layer motherbord .Therefor i am looking

for a 4600 motherboard.


Piet


----------



## shaz782

Is there that much of a difference between a 4300 and 4600?......My understanding was that they are pretty much the same machine. With only slight improvements on focus (stronger magnets on 4600) and a brighter image (36Kv HVPS vs. 34Kv on the 4300).


Shaz



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *albertsacoustics* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
> Yes it is hard to find the difference because it is 3 layer motherbord .Therefor i am looking
> 
> for a 4600 motherboard.
> 
> 
> Piet


----------



## madpoet

Send me the part number for the 4600 MB, I may have one... stacks and stacks of parts


----------



## albertsacoustics

hello

The part number is 65434 RV A


Piet


----------



## wallace1234

Rajiv, did you ever post any pics of your 4200? Or, better yet, is the 4200 working well?


Don


----------



## rajdude

Hi Don,

I thought I did







didn't I?

They should be earlier in this thread.







If not I can post them together somewhere here.


....and YES! the 4200 works very nicely. Due to the help of everyong at AVS especially Scott and Chip and a couple of others, I ahve got it to a point where it is satisfying. It's convergence is stable and does not overheat at all (never did anyway)


Of course the tweaker inside me wants more from it !







HA HA.


So you got one too?











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wallace1234* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Rajiv, did you ever post any pics of your 4200? Or, better yet, is the 4200 working well?
> 
> 
> Don


----------



## danstone

I haven't yet read through all of this thread, so sorry if this question has already been asked/answered.


With all of these modifications/tweaks, what is the max resolution that you have been able to display with the 4200? I seem to recall Ray mentioning in the past that the 4200 seems to throw a fit if you increase the resolution much over 720P, and therefore 960P/1080P was not a realistic option. Just wondering if this is still the case or whether I'm mistaken.


I have a 4200, basically sitting idle in the corner of my garage, that I may finally give another go after making my way through the posts in this thread. Looks like a lot of useful information posted here and it's much appreciated.


Thanks,


Dan


----------



## rajdude

Hi Dan,

I am not sure what it means by "throwing a fit" but I have fed my 4200 resolutions all the way up to 1920 x 1440p (a 4:3 version of 1080p) It never has given be any error.


Now whether it is able to resolve those resolutions is another question!


The best it can do (with my setup) is 720p and 1080i. Both these rezs are resolved very nicely and I view these rezes daily.


I have tried feeding 1080p to it but the image becomes soft. This PJ does not have the bandwidth for 1080p. I have also tried 960p but it also is too soft.


Frankly where will you get 1080p content these days anyway?


One thing I must point out....the 4200 has an issue with "phantom scan lines", Scott may be able to solve it.


Further details on resolution and this issue can be seen in another thread I started:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=726083 




I'd say fire it up ! You wont regret it!

Good luck!





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *danstone* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I haven't yet read through all of this thread, so sorry if this question has already been asked/answered.
> 
> 
> With all of these modifications/tweaks, what is the max resolution that you have been able to display with the 4200? I seem to recall Ray mentioning in the past that the 4200 seems to throw a fit if you increase the resolution much over 720P, and therefore 960P/1080P was not a realistic option. Just wondering if this is still the case or whether I'm mistaken.
> 
> 
> I have a 4200, basically sitting idle in the corner of my garage, that I may finally give another go after making my way through the posts in this thread. Looks like a lot of useful information posted here and it's much appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Dan


----------



## tse

The 4200 is perfectly capable of scanning at 1080p. The video bandwidth is not quite up to what it needs to be, though. I'm not trying to get any hopes up but I'm working on a bandwidth upgrade. I just bought a 4200 and with the Sony tubes it will never be quite as sharp as a projector with Panasonic tubes. But, it should still be capable of a good picture. First thing is the neck cards have to have a fairly flat responce out to 80MHz. My spice simulations show that this is possible but the simulations are usually a bit optimistic. I've started on building the neck card but probably won't get the parts that I ordered until next week. If it works good enough then the RGB board's BW will be checked. With some luck the 4200 will be in 1080p territory.


Scott


----------



## Ray Cendroski

Scott,


This might be a good time to mention another issue.


In addition to the "phantom scan line" issue with my 4200, the other problem I've always had is related to the scan frequency of the source. There is a relay circuit on the HOT board that switches in any of three possibe "compensation(?)" circuits based on the frequency of the source material (lo, medium, and hi freq).


If memory serves me right, the vertical board has the frequency sensor circuit composed of some op amps that drive the relays on the HOT board.


My problem is that around 38khz the board switches from the mid freq range to the hi freq relay circuit on the HOT board. The net effect is that 1080I material (32khz) there is no switching, and I am ok. However, for 720P and above (1080P) material, the hi freq circuit switches in, and it severly cuts down the max width of my rasters.


I put a jumper on the freq detection circuit so I always stay in the mid freq range. That at least gets me up thru 720P with max width rasters available. For anything above 720P such as 1080P, I can't get the registration to correct the convergance.


If I remove the jumper, I can run at 1080P, but my raster width shrinks by about 1/3.


Just curious if you guys have the same problem?


Sorry to keep dumping these problems on you. I'm not sure where all the 4200's are coming from lately. For years, there was only 2 or 3 of us with 4200's here at the forum.


Thanks,

Ray


----------



## tse

Something is wrong. The HOT bd regulates the deflection current so the raster should stay fairly constant in width. 1080p is around 68KHz which shouldn't be a problem for the 4200.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

OHHHH LA LA !!! Sounds SHWEEEEET !!!
























Scott, I am getting goosebumps ! sitting here and reading this.









Hey how come you get these neck boards made so quickly? You etch them yourselves?


But frankly, if you find a way to get rid of the phantom scanlines, that will be even nicer. With the lack of 1080p content, I really dont worry about that too much.



Now now.... I am asking to too much too soon !

Scott, keep up the good work ! Let us know if you need any help or test guinea pigs or something.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The 4200 is perfectly capable of scanning at 1080p. The video bandwidth is not quite up to what it needs to be, though. I'm not trying to get any hopes up but I'm working on a bandwidth upgrade. I just bought a 4200 and with the Sony tubes it will never be quite as sharp as a projector with Panasonic tubes. But, it should still be capable of a good picture. First thing is the neck cards have to have a fairly flat responce out to 80MHz. My spice simulations show that this is possible but the simulations are usually a bit optimistic. I've started on building the neck card but probably won't get the parts that I ordered until next week. If it works good enough then the RGB board's BW will be checked. With some luck the 4200 will be in 1080p territory.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> My problem is that around 38khz the board switches from the mid freq range to the hi freq relay circuit on the HOT board. The net effect is that 1080I material (32khz) there is no switching, and I am ok. However, for 720P and above (1080P) material, the hi freq circuit switches in, and it severly cuts down the max width of my rasters.




Ray,

My PJ does the same thing, anything above 1080i like 720p and above, the raster ends up with around an inch blank on both sides.







(well, let me be accurate..maybe a quarter of an inch for 720p, more for 1080p) I was thinking of playing with the width pot a little, but have not done that yet.


By the way, what does that compensation circuit do? I wonder if that makes the image soft











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I put a jumper on the freq detection circuit so I always stay in the mid freq range. That at least gets me up thru 720P with max width rasters available. For anything above 720P such as 1080P, I can't get the registration to correct the convergence.
> 
> 
> If I remove the jumper, I can run at 1080P, but my raster width shrinks by about 1/3.
> 
> 
> Just curious if you guys have the same problem?



I don't have an issue with convergence at 1080p, but then my convergence amp board is from a 4600. When I first swapped itI noticed it does have higher gain than the older one, and oh yes! MUCH more stable.




As for the raster shrinking to 1/3.I don't think my rasters go that small at 1080p..they are just slightly smaller than 720p.


So basically it means that your PJ is unusable at 1080p because of the 1/3 raster ?









(unless, of course, that jumper thing)


----------



## Ray Cendroski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Something is wrong. The HOT bd regulates the deflection current so the raster should stay fairly constant in width. 1080p is around 68KHz which shouldn't be a problem for the 4200.
> 
> 
> Scott



Scott,


I tried swapping both the HOT board and vertical board in the 4200 with all the boards in the 2000G models and didn't see any difference with the 1080P width problem. I didn't know what else to try or look at.


My "max width" pot is maxed out to get the raster as large as possible. I'm driving a rather large screen, and I need all the phosphor I can get. I suspect it could be tied in to the width problem. It's borderline stable at 1080P.


By the way, my favorite "feature" for the 4200 is the swapability of spare parts with all the 2000's out there. Also, no surface mount components, just plug in IC's.


-Rajiv


My 4200 already had the same convergance amp board as the 4600. I don't know if the Panasonic tubes have something to do with it. I had sort of given up on 1080P because of the phantom scan lines, and the overall soft image. I don't really have a 1080P source other than the computer which I don't like to use. I was playing with PowerStrip once, and it sent out a super high scan rate that fried some components on the HOT board. No more.


Ray


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> My "max width" pot is maxed out to get the raster as large as possible. I'm driving a rather large screen, and I need all the phosphor I can get. I suspect it could be tied in to the width problem. It's borderline stable at 1080P.



Ray,

after you changed the width pot, did you have:

1. heat issues? [Overheating etc]

2. unstability at 1080p?


Mine is stable at 1080p and I wonder if increasing the width caused your unstabillity


-Rajiv



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> My 4200 already had the same convergance amp board as the 4600. I don't know if the Panasonic tubes have something to do with it. I had sort of given up on 1080P because of the phantom scan lines, and the overall soft image. I don't really have a 1080P source other than the computer which I don't like to use. I was playing with PowerStrip once, and it sent out a super high scan rate that fried some components on the HOT board. No more.
> 
> 
> Ray



Yes, agree with you Ray, but with Scott's upgrades we may be able to tackle that issue.


The bigger issue (IMHO) is the focus and the phantom scan lines. Of course having Sony 09MI tubes does not help either.



Hey, do your phantom scan lines change at all , if you run different resolutions or different refresh rates? Mine dont....unless I am doing 1080p and then the whole picture softens...softening those" "phanton scan lines" too...but not by a whole lot.


Lastly I too am really afraid with powerstrip. I once fed my PJ some high refresh rate but luckily I had my hand on the power switch!







I was saved that day but will never try that trick again.


----------



## danstone

I see Ray has given a pretty thorough description of what I had recalled reading in some old posts that I referred to in this thread as 'throwing a fit.' I'm sure Scott will be able to provide some insights as to the cause and solution and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with.


Thanks for the link to your other thread Rajiv. I had completely missed it. Looks to be exactly the type of info I was looking for and I will spend some time reading it all the way through.


Still not sure if I'll give the 4200 another go or not. Mainly due to convenience issues and lack of technician skills on my part, though, and certainly not anything to do with a lack of capabilities on the part of the projector. I'll keep reading this thread all the way through first before throwing in the towel completely and just selling it off.


Thanks again for the replies and info,


Dan


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Scott,
> 
> 
> This might be a good time to mention another issue.
> 
> 
> In addition to the "phantom scan line" issue with my 4200, the other problem I've always had is related to the scan frequency of the source. There is a relay circuit on the HOT board that switches in any of three possibe "compensation(?)" circuits based on the frequency of the source material (lo, medium, and hi freq).
> 
> The relays short across the linearity coils as you go up in frequency. At 15KHz all three are in connected in series as lower frequencies need more linearity correction. Above 48KHz all should be shorted across.
> 
> 
> If memory serves me right, the vertical board has the frequency sensor circuit composed of some op amps that drive the relays on the HOT board.
> 
> 
> My problem is that around 38khz the board switches from the mid freq range to the hi freq relay circuit on the HOT board. The net effect is that 1080I material (32khz) there is no switching, and I am ok. However, for 720P and above (1080P) material, the hi freq circuit switches in, and it severly cuts down the max width of my rasters.
> 
> When the raster size is in the reduced state does the static keystone still work? I'm not asking you to blow-up your projector. Don't mess with this if you don't feel comfortable. At the factory we would pull the two position connector that goes from the Spellman to the mother bd. The HV wouldn't come up so the tubes wouldn't be damaged if something went wrong.
> 
> 
> I put a jumper on the freq detection circuit so I always stay in the mid freq range. That at least gets me up thru 720P with max width rasters available. For anything above 720P such as 1080P, I can't get the registration to correct the convergance.
> 
> 
> If I remove the jumper, I can run at 1080P, but my raster width shrinks by about 1/3.
> 
> You sound like you have some technical knowledge. Can you use a scope? Do you have access to one?
> 
> 
> Just curious if you guys have the same problem?
> 
> Nope.
> 
> 
> Sorry to keep dumping these problems on you. I'm not sure where all the 4200's are coming from lately. For years, there was only 2 or 3 of us with 4200's here at the forum.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ray



Scott


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OHHHH LA LA !!! Sounds SHWEEEEET !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott, I am getting goosebumps ! sitting here and reading this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey how come you get these neck boards made so quickly? You etch them yourselves?
> 
> They came from www.apcircuits.com . Email your board files and two days later you have your boards. I got four of the neck cards (they only make them in pairs) for $120 including shipping.
> 
> 
> But frankly, if you find a way to get rid of the phantom scanlines, that will be even nicer. With the lack of 1080p content, I really dont worry about that too much.
> 
> I know I said it looks like power supply noise but when the registration is off and the noise goes away it points more in the registration board's direction. My 2000 without the noise has a different section of reggie bd. That might be it. Still trying to find out if the firmware needs to be different to use it in the 4200.
> 
> 
> 
> Now now.... I am asking to too much too soon !
> 
> Scott, keep up the good work ! Let us know if you need any help or test guinea pigs or something.



Guinea pigs may be needed later.


Scott


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *danstone* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I see Ray has given a pretty thorough description of what I had recalled reading in some old posts that I referred to in this thread as 'throwing a fit.' I'm sure Scott will be able to provide some insights as to the cause and solution and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with.
> 
> I think that I know what you are talking about. If you increase the width pot you reach a point where the picture starts scrambling like it's loosing sync? That is the overwidth protection circuit kicking in. It usually makes you back off on the width pot pretty quickly, doesn't it? It looks bad but doesn't hurt anything as long as you don't leave it like that. If you do something is apt to blow-up.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the link to your other thread Rajiv. I had completely missed it. Looks to be exactly the type of info I was looking for and I will spend some time reading it all the way through.
> 
> 
> Still not sure if I'll give the 4200 another go or not. Mainly due to convenience issues and lack of technician skills on my part, though, and certainly not anything to do with a lack of capabilities on the part of the projector. I'll keep reading this thread all the way through first before throwing in the towel completely and just selling it off.
> 
> Oh, dust it off and play with it some more. If you think you might want to sell, do it soon. The prices aren't likely to be going up.
> 
> 
> Thanks again for the replies and info,
> 
> 
> Dan



Scott


----------



## wallace1234




> Quote:
> They should be earlier in this thread. If not I can post them together somewhere here.



I didn't them as I was looking for pics of the way it is working now.



> Quote:
> So you got one too?



Not yet, but am thinking about a 4200 on Curt Plame's site.


Anyway, this was/is a very good and informative thread! If Steve does come up with new neck cards, that will make me even more interested.....










don


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wallace1234* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I didn't them as I was looking for pics of the way it is working now.
> 
> 
> Not yet, but am thinking about a 4200 on Curt Plame's site.
> 
> 
> Anyway, this was/is a very good and informative thread! If Steve does come up with new neck cards, that will make me even more interested.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> don




Hi Don,


You can see some of my 4200's recent pics on this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=726083 


After that I have improved the convergence and geomtery so it looks even better. If I get some time tonight.... I will post new pics here.


As for getting a Stock 4200 now....may I suggest getting Sony G70 instead. Not that there is anything wrong with a Stock 4200 as such but I see so many things that must be tweaked in a stock 4200 to make it look nice!!


So unless you are a tweaker OR find a 4200 which already has been tweaked...I think you will end up spending a lot of time with your 4200!










That said...it is a very satisfying PJ for a tweaker type guy.




BTW...by Steve...you really mean Scott right?










Yes, we too are waiting for his neck board mods...maybe they will elevate the status of this PJ !




By the way, did I ever post a list of all the mods/tweaks I have done to my 4200 here?


----------



## wallace1234

Oooppsss Yea, I meant Scott. And no, I don't think I ever saw a complete list. It would be great if you have time to post them.


Don


----------



## Ray Cendroski

Thanks Scott -



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The relays short across the linearity coils as you go up in frequency. At 15KHz all three are in connected in series as lower frequencies need more linearity correction. Above 48KHz all should be shorted across.
> 
> That makes a lot of sense. I've always been frustrated with the Ampro schematics. There's always a minimum of information about waveforms, voltages, and functionality.
> 
> 
> When the raster size is in the reduced state does the static keystone still work? I'm not asking you to blow-up your projector. Don't mess with this if you don't feel comfortable. At the factory we would pull the two position connector that goes from the Spellman to the mother bd. The HV wouldn't come up so the tubes wouldn't be damaged if something went wrong.
> 
> Wow-sounds like I should be careful! I remember when I first got the 4200 and I called Ampro just before they went under. I talked to a guy (Bill Fowler I think - did you know him?) and he warned me about running the projector with the width pot set too low. At the time I was clueless. Does that sound like the same issue?
> 
> 
> You sound like you have some technical knowledge. Can you use a scope? Do you have access to one?
> 
> I was an electronic technician in the Army for 4 years, then went on to get my EE. I designed a crude oscilloscope for my senior thesis project (mostly borrowed some Heathkit schematics). I'm a Sr. Control Systems eng at Rockwell now. I don't have a scope, but have often wished I did. I would only need it for the 4200, and just couldn't justify it. I'll have to see if I can borrow one somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that I know what you are talking about. If you increase the width pot you reach a point where the picture starts scrambling like it's loosing sync? That is the overwidth protection circuit kicking in. It usually makes you back off on the width pot pretty quickly, doesn't it? It looks bad but doesn't hurt anything as long as you don't leave it like that. If you do something is apt to blow-up.
> 
> That's exactly what happens. Is there any other way to get full size raster's other than the width pot?



Ray


----------



## tse

Ray,


It's good to see a fellow EE in this thread. Watch out, we'll put you to work!







I think Rajiv has technical training, too.


There is a reason your projector isn't scanning right at 1080p. It sounds like the width regulator circuit doesn't have enough voltage coming in. That's why I asked about the static keystone. The keystone is produced when the width circuit modulates the voltage going to the yokes with a vertical frequency ramp. If there isn't enough headroom the width will be low and the modulation won't work. I'll bet your pj is ceiling mounted? Could you try this in your spare 2000? I can try to guide you through fixing it if you like or if you want to send me one of your HOT bds I'll check it out for you.


Do you work with or know someone that does RF design with bipolar transistors? I'd sure like to ask that person a couple of questions concerning this CRT card that I'm working on. I took a microwave class back in '76 but most of it has rubbed off now. I've tried to study up on it but nothing puts me to sleep quicker than reading about a Smith chart.










Scott


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ray,
> 
> 
> It's good to see a fellow EE in this thread. Watch out, we'll put you to work!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Rajiv has technical training, too.










So you guessed it, eh? Yes, I too have gone to electrical engineering college.... but I gotta admit that my knowledge is REALLY rusty now! HA HA.


I was a very active hobbyist until a few years back, when I was in India. But mostly used to tinker with audio related stuff.... amps, eqs etc etc. but no video







. Audio is my first love. Oh how much I used to wish I had a oscilloscope then!


But when I moved to USA, this hobby has taken a backseat. So much stuff is available which is so much more affordable PLUS getting married, baby and everything does not leave much time for my personal hobbies!


The good thing about moving to USA is stuff like O'scope, function generators powersupplies etc etc is MUCH more affordable. I have all of these now (mostly collecting dust







).


Actually I had to build myself a regulated PSU in India due to high cost!


I am still reading up on video these days. Gotta try to hook up a O'scope to a pattern generator and se what is looks like. You guys have a link / info on some site or book to learn basic video waveforms and innards of a CRT TV like stuff?


----------



## rajdude

Hey Scott!

Any update ?


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am still reading up on video these days. Gotta try to hook up a O'scope to a pattern generator and se what is looks like. You guys have a link / info on some site or book to learn basic video waveforms and innards of a CRT TV like stuff?



Two links that have alot of info regarding CRT displays.

http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-656.pdf#page=1 

http://www.*********/eviltwin/forum_...p?TID=297&PN=1 


4000d.pk goes where the asterisks are???? It won't let me put them in?


Check the .pdf by US Precision Lens. It is everything you need to know about CRT video projectors.

http://dion.swamp.dk/ampro4200g.html 


Interesting site regarding the 4200.


Scott


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Scott!
> 
> Any update ?



Well, I've got one of the neck cards partially stuffed and have applied power. Good thing is it didn't catch on fire!


First snag. I believed Panasonic's spec sheet that stated that no capacitors were required on the outputs of their voltage regulators. Yeah, right. My -4V for the video preamp stage was a ramp waveform about 2Vpp at 200KHz. Things settled down after I put a 22uF cap on the output of the regulator.


Next snag was a little oopsy on my part. When the blanking signal is applied the output goes to about mid-point insted of to black like it should. Had to add a resistor to the solder side of the board and change another resistor value to fix that.


At this point the card is working but the bandwidth is low. At least it isn't oscillating. Remember Murphy's law "oscillators won't, but amplifiers will".


That's where I'm at. Hope to get some more work done this weekend.


I've been playing around with the projector some, too. I tried a Marquee focus magnet on the green. The dynamic windings are too much different to work right but the magnet can work for the center of the screen. The center did focus somewhat sharper than with the original magnet. I had another magnet to try but it was too long to get on the neck without pulling the tube out of the chassis. I'm using the 4200 as my television and couldn't go too far without running out of time to get it back together. I'm thinking about setting up another area for working on projectors without using my TV projector.


Scott


----------



## tse

While digging through some old junk I found this little gem. This is usually the first thing that gets lost with the Ampro/Esprit projectors. How many of you have ever seen one?


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Scott,

I have exactly the same remote. Although the bottom cover is not there.


I guess without this these Ampros are a dud, unless you do the PC remote thingy.


-Rajiv





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> While digging through some old junk I found this little gem. This is usually the first thing that gets lost with the Ampro/Esprit projectors. How many of you have ever seen one?
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## rajdude

I have two new issues:









*1. The blue registration* gets all whacked out. I have to twist a daughter board on the big registration board to get it back to normal. Every time I start the PJ....the blue is slightly off. Just a twist of that board...it gets back to normal.


The twist has to be done away from the connector end of the board; if I move the connector end of the boardnothing happens. I guess the connector is OK....maybe some track or solder has loosened?









Any ideas?

*2. HV Arc.*

This has happened only once but has got me worried. Yesterday while watching a movie, a loud snapping sound was heard and the PJ went blank for just half a second.







After that the PJ was fine until we switched it off. The snapping sound sounded like a loud static discharge, I hear it is an arc.










Why does that happen and does it mean the PJ is dying?









What is the solution?


----------



## rajdude

Thanks Scott !

Good info there.


By the way the link to evil twin has to be massaged to really work. The correct replacement for the **** is 4000p "dot" dk



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Two links that have alot of info regarding CRT displays.
> 
> http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-656.pdf#page=1
> 
> http://www.*********/eviltwin/forum_...p?TID=297&PN=1
> 
> 
> 4000d.pk goes where the asterisks are???? It won't let me put them in?
> 
> 
> Check the .pdf by US Precision Lens. It is everything you need to know about CRT video projectors.
> 
> http://dion.swamp.dk/ampro4200g.html
> 
> 
> Interesting site regarding the 4200.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## Ray Cendroski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> While digging through some old junk I found this little gem. This is usually the first thing that gets lost with the Ampro/Esprit projectors. How many of you have ever seen one?
> 
> 
> Scott



I was willing to bet that you were refering to the little cover door.


The two new Ampro 2000's I had both had brand remotes in the boxes. They even still had the protective plastic film over the displays. Even new out of the box from the factory, one of them had already lost the cover.


I sure hated to part with those remotes.


My old beater does, however, have a cover.


Ray


----------



## stefuel

I have one right here in front of me. But as stated, the cover is missing. I've never seen a cover.


Chip


----------



## tse

Another bit of Esprit trivia. The focus circuit of the 4200 didn't have enough range to easily set the CPC (flair and stig) magnets. This tool let you extend the vertical deflection board for access to the 20V rail. One switch position would let you see what you needed to set the flair, the other position was for the stig adjustment. This was what we used at the factory to set-up the projector.


Scott


----------



## Ray Cendroski

Wow - that's amazing timing. I decided to redo the stig and flair a couple of days ago on the 4200 after reading the threads about moving the magnet assembly as far forward as possible. I was thinking to myself that there wasn't a lot of focus range. I did the best I could, and the results seem a little better with the magnets in the full forward position, but it wasn't dramatic like I hoped.


Lacking adequate remote adjustment, could a guy slide the focus yoke fwd/rev to make the stig / flare more obvious?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ray,
> 
> 
> It's good to see a fellow EE in this thread. Watch out, we'll put you to work!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Rajiv has technical training, too.
> 
> 
> There is a reason your projector isn't scanning right at 1080p. It sounds like the width regulator circuit doesn't have enough voltage coming in. That's why I asked about the static keystone. The keystone is produced when the width circuit modulates the voltage going to the yokes with a vertical frequency ramp. If there isn't enough headroom the width will be low and the modulation won't work. I'll bet your pj is ceiling mounted? Could you try this in your spare 2000? I can try to guide you through fixing it if you like or if you want to send me one of your HOT bds I'll check it out for you.
> 
> 
> Do you work with or know someone that does RF design with bipolar transistors? I'd sure like to ask that person a couple of questions concerning this CRT card that I'm working on. I took a microwave class back in '76 but most of it has rubbed off now. I've tried to study up on it but nothing puts me to sleep quicker than reading about a Smith chart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott



Thanks for the offers to help with the HOT board. It's strange because Ampro checked the HOT and Vertical board when I first got it. Swapping the 2000 boards didn't show any difference. I've got the 4200 in a rear screen setup with no keystone at all (picture below).


I'm with Rajiv at this point - if I can't get the Phantom lines to go away, I'm not going to expend any more energy on 1080P (or anything else). I'll never be happy with it now that I've seen how much cleaner the picture looks with the registration turned off.


If you're looking for some transistor help, post a thread something like "Looking for Transistor Expert". I did it with a neckboard transistor problem a few years ago, and got a Silicon Valley expert to help out. Your microwave class was about the same time that I graduated ('74).


Ray


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow - that's amazing timing. I decided to redo the stig and flair a couple of days ago on the 4200 after reading the threads about moving the magnet assembly as far forward as possible. I was thinking to myself that there wasn't a lot of focus range. I did the best I could, and the results seem a little better with the magnets in the full forward position, but it wasn't dramatic like I hoped.




Here is how I do it and I get plenty of static focus range this way. Dynamic is another story...for (IIRC - blue mostly and to some extent - Red too) some tubes.....dynamic does not seem to function/or have very little range.


I DO NOT slide the focus magnets all the way forward. I think that is wrong anyway. Only the deflection yokes/coil has to be slid all the way forward. Anyway... back to what I was saying.


I set the static and dynamic focus settings to the center (50/77). I then loosen the focus magnet and slide it fore and aft along the tube neck. At one point I get the best focusI tighten it there.


That's it !


The good thing is for the green and red, the best focus I get is when the Electronic focus is at 50 ! The blue still has to be tweaked.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Lacking adequate remote adjustment, could a guy slide the focus yoke fwd/rev to make the stig / flare more obvious?



Not sure about that, but my stig and flare is VERY obvious. I did notice that my magnets function differently than what Guy Kuo's document says .but they sure do workand I am able to tweak the dots to almost perfect rounds.


But thenI do have the full 2/4/6 pole CPC magnets from VDC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with Rajiv at this point - if I can't get the Phantom lines to go away, I'm not going to expend any more energy on 1080P (or anything else). I'll never be happy with it now that I've seen how much cleaner the picture looks with the registration turned off.




I second (or first???) this too. !


But this PJ does not focus as sharp as it should, I remember Scott noticed that when he first got the 4200. I think something should be done about that.


----------



## Ray Cendroski

Rajiv,


Your description is exactly the way my focus magnets are set up also.


Some time ago my HVPS failed, and all I could find was a 3300/4300 replacement. I took a chance on it without knowing if the pinouts and voltages would be the same, and it worked out ok. I sure held my breath the first time I hit the power on button.


To get it back into focus I had to slide the focus yokes forward about an inch. I did like you mentioned, and preset the remote to 50% before positioning. The newer supply has a higher anode voltage, by a couple of thousand volts if I remember correctly.


Ray


----------



## tse

Ray and Rajiv,


If you look at the right hand section (standing behind the projector) of the registration board is yours surface mount parts or through hole? The surface mount one is 81289. My 4200 has the through hole part, my 2000, the SMD. I'm wondering if the through hole board is the noise maker. My 2000 does not have the noise.


Scott


----------



## Ray Cendroski

Scott,


My 4200 has an 80893 main board and two daughter 80894 boards - all thru hole, not SMD.


That must be because you have a very new generation 2000.


The thing is, the two new in box 2000's I had were very early models with thru holes, and they were flawless. That's the big thing I really liked about them. The image was rock solid on both.


I might go see one of them tomorrow night, and I'll double check it.


Ray


----------



## tse

I just tried putting the SMD function summer section in my 4200. That generated a bunch of I2C errors. Man, I hate firmware and programmable logic chips. I don't know if there is a firmware version for the older, long, through hole CPU bd that is compatible with the SMD fsummer. My 2000 has the shorter, SMD CPU.


Anyway, if you set the number 2 dipswitch on the CPU to "on" the errors don't show and you have control of the unit.


None of the registration functions worked. The picture was contorted in some wild bends and after a couple of minutes the thermal switch on the reg amp would trip which shuts off the amps.


So after this experiment I replaced the original fsummer bd., attached the red and blue daughter bds (they do the corner pin and key functions). I left off the green daughter bd and the daughter bd that covers the center section.


Everything looks great. I'm not seeing the noise, the picture looks clean????


I am watching a kinda "dark" movie. Gonad the Barbarian. I can't believe that I've never watched this before. It's new to me.


Scott


----------



## Ray Cendroski

That's great Scott! I'm kind of bummed though.


I saw your note this morning, and remembered I had a spare 2000 convergance board that I could play with. First I re-seated all the 4200 convergance boards and connectors with no luck on the phantom lines.


Next I started swapping 2000 boards with the 4200. I really like a 9" EM projector that uses readily available parts from probably the most available projector out there. The obvious board I wanted to swap was the 80887 power supply which could be putting noise out maybe due to a bad filter cap.


A long story short - I swapped any and all boards and didn't see any difference at all. The one board I couldn't swap was the 80945 PLL (Phase Locked Loop?) board (under metal enclosure). The 2000 uses an 80886 PLL board that doesn't have the two cables plugged in.


The thing I didn't realize was that the old spare 2000 convergance board also had the two "Converge on Green" option boards which my 4200 doesn't have. I plugged in the larger 80895 COG center board and it really warped the display all over the place. The smaller 80894 green daughter board didn't make any difference.


Even with the two COG cards I would probably still need a different EEPROM for the CPU board, right?


Gonad the Barbarian?


Thanks,

Ray


Ok - it's later in the day and I tried a couple more things. I took the registration power supply board out of my 4600 and tried it. It didn't help - but it did work ok.


I also swapped the Registration amp board assembly from the 4600 (same p/n) and that didn't help either. The Phantom lines are still present. I'm running out of things to try.


----------



## rajdude

OK guys, the wife is not home. I will try to see if I can take some quick photos to describe which board I have.


I am pretty sure nothing in my PJ is SMD....all boards are through-hole.



Scott.....Gonad the barbarian.....eh??

Some one is h**ny tonight


----------



## tse

I've just got a feeling that the through hole fsummer bds are to blaim. They are covered with AD633 analog multipliers which are pretty noisey. The SMD version uses multiplying DACs. There is some type of programmable part on the SMD bd. I don't know why it wasn't set up to interface the different serial busses. That would have made alot of sense.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Here is the pic of my reggie board as promised. Sorry could not post it yesterday, as soon as I took the pic, the wife was back



















as you can see...it is full of through hole components.


The board on the upper left side is giving me grief these days. I have to twist it to get the blue convergence back on the mark. looks like a loose / bad solder or something.


----------



## rajdude

Ok Scott,

I am afraid to ask but I gotta ask this question :


Judging from all this....do you think there is anything we can do to get rid of the phantom scan-lines?


If not, how to minimize them?


-Rajiv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've just got a feeling that the through hole fsummer bds are to blaim. They are covered with AD633 analog multipliers which are pretty noisey. The SMD version uses multiplying DACs. There is some type of programmable part on the SMD bd. I don't know why it wasn't set up to interface the different serial busses. That would have made alot of sense.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## rajdude

So I found a solution to the problem I mentioned inthe post above (re-posted below)


I just re-seated the board and things look like normal !










Of course I know that is the first thing one should do to boards which pop-out, but somehow I never got around to doing it!











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is the pic of my reggie board as promised. Sorry could not post it yesterday, as soon as I took the pic, the wife was back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as you can see...it is full of through hole components.
> 
> 
> The board on the upper left side is giving me grief these days. I have to twist it to get the blue convergence back on the mark. looks like a loose / bad solder or something.


----------



## rajdude

Hey Scott,

Any progress on the phantom scan-lines issue?


I know you were working on improving the bandwidth, so I also wonder what ins the progress on that front. Or did you start a thread of your own ? (maybe I missed it?)


----------



## tse

When I first got this 4200 it had some noise in the picture. Probably what you refer to as the phantom lines. I did some board unpluggin' and pluggin' back in with the registration boards and it is now so faint that it only shows sometimes, a little bit. Magic, I guess. Haven't worked much on anything else. The projector looks really good with 1080i so there hasn't been too much reason to mess with it.


Two 3600 chassis were heading for the dumpster during the warehouse clean-up at VDC so I re-directed them to my car and they have found their way to my house. I'm itching to get one working. Hard to come up with the time, though. Too many projectors, too many projects.


Scott


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I did some board unpluggin' and pluggin' back in with the registration boards and it is now so faint that it only shows sometimes, a little bit. Magic, I guess.




Hmmm, that is interesting.









Maybe I can try that out tonight. I will zap all those connectors with a gold contact cleaner too, lets see what happens.

*Just to be sure:

You are refering to the daughter boards on the big registration control board (shown above in the pic I posted), right ?*


I had already cleaned all other connectors (motherboard - cards and cables) earlier when dissasembling the PJ for glycol and fan upgrades.


----------



## tse

Yep, the daughter bds on the registration bd. I did remove the green convergence daughter bd and the contrast mod bd, too. That gave I2C errors but switch 2 on the CPU card disables them. The daughter bds do the corner adjustments. The registration will work without them, though the corner functions are not there.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Oh well, I need help (again). After working just fine for the past few months my Ampro 4200 is having issues.


Yesterday night, I turned it on to watch a movie, nothing showed up on the screen. Then I looked down into the tubes.nothing!


I checked the keypad, did a status check, everything checks out fineit says *system ok.* All functions work just fine, it detects the signal input, I can only go through the test patterns and the help....but nothing appears on the screen. No test patterns, no help, zilch, nada!


From the keypad, absolutely everything seems to be OK. I can hear the relays clicking when I change the frequency (input or test patterns). The frequency counter works fine.

*Justthere is no image! The tubes don't light up!*


How can I troubleshoot this? Please help me.


----------



## Clarence

Did you toggle the RGB CUT OFF settings on the remote?


Nevermind... if it was a simple cut off, I don't think your test patterns would display.


----------



## Ray Cendroski

Check brightness and contrast settings (via the remote) for the screen program that you are trying to display.


The help and test screens use different memory locations and may work ok, while the regular screen doesn't if it lost it's presets (defaults to zero I think).


The screen blanking settings can also cause it to not to display an image.


Ray


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Did you toggle the RGB CUT OFF settings on the remote?
> 
> 
> Nevermind... if it was a simple cut off, I don't think your test patterns would display.




yes yes !

I have already tried that .


Nothign displays....not even the test patterns. It just says (on the keypad/remote) that it is displaying xyz pattern...but the tubes dont light up at all


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Check brightness and contrast settings (via the remote) for the screen program that you are trying to display.
> 
> 
> The help and test screens use different memory locations and may work ok, while the regular screen doesn't if it lost it's presets (defaults to zero I think).
> 
> 
> The screen blanking settings can also cause it to not to display an image.
> 
> 
> Ray




I have tried the brightness settings,


BTW, did I write that the test patterns are working?

No no....sorry to be confusiing....nothing displays on the screen no matter what I do !


Not even the test patterns.


----------



## tse

If the 30 code returns "system ok" and it's not lying to you then most likely there is no video driving the tubes. Break out your DVM and measure the end of the big brown power resistor, on the green CRT card, that is nearest the bottom of the card. Should be either +180V or +190V. Now measure the end nearest the middle of the card. If it measures the same then the video is not there and the tube(s) will be cutoff. If it measures 10 or move volts less than the other end then there is probably video present and something else is causing the problem. The tube heaters are lit? Do you hear the cackle of the HV coming up? While you have the DVM near the CRT card measure the G-2 pot pins. There should be +400 to +850V there. Don't worry, we'll get you through this.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

It's past midnight and I just took a peek at this thread before going to sleep.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Don't worry, we'll get you through this.
> 
> 
> Scott



I know, I know !























First, let me thank all you guys, (and especially Scott!) for helping me out here with this PJ.


So lets get to business,

[1] I do hear the crackle of HV at startup.

[2] The CRT's heaters are NOT lit

[3] It surely detects a video input because if I turn off the 1271 switcher , it says NO INPUT

[4] All the Spellman's lights are lit (as usual)


As for taking out the DMM, I surely can, but I am flying out to India this saturday morning. I was packing like crazy and just finished last minute shopping. Strangely, the wife never likes my wardrobe














Oh ya, I just bought a 220 to 110 voltage converter from Radioshack. My wife & sis-in-law have already burnt TWO vonage routers in a row before reliasing that the cheapo "adapter" she was using does NOT convert the voltage !























GRRRRRR ! Women!


The third router is flying out with me !



Anyway, I will try measuring the voltages tomorrow evening, if I finish this packing!


I just hope this is not a spellman problem. Looks like the heaters are not getting any voltage




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If the 30 code returns "system ok" and it's not lying to you then most likely there is no video driving the tubes. Break out your DVM and measure the end of the big brown power resistor, on the green CRT card, that is nearest the bottom of the card. Should be either +180V or +190V. Now measure the end nearest the middle of the card. If it measures the same then the video is not there and the tube(s) will be cutoff. If it measures 10 or move volts less than the other end then there is probably video present and something else is causing the problem. The tube heaters are lit? Do you hear the cackle of the HV coming up? While you have the DVM near the CRT card measure the G-2 pot pins. There should be +400 to +850V there. Don't worry, we'll get you through this.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clarence* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Did you toggle the RGB CUT OFF settings on the remote?
> 
> 
> Nevermind... if it was a simple cut off, I don't think your test patterns would display.




Hey Clarence,

After I came back home after meeting you that day (THANKS!







) I did some tweaking. I moved it back a little and re-did the convergence. I was amazed at the results!









By just moving it a bit backwards the image is now fully filling in the screen and 99% of my corner convergence problems went away ! Now I have almost perfect convergence all around.







The image has dramatically improved! I can now easily see pores on people's faces on HD signals (on close ups).


Now I'd say in terms of clarity and sharpness, this PJ may be at least 90% of what I saw at your place. I am soooo excited about this. I just cannot believe my eyes!


I really want you to come visit me and see this for yourself. I would love to hear what you'd say about this. I am sure another set of eyes would be very nice to further improve this PJ. Please do come by sometime.


Sure, the grey-scale SUCKS big time! In dark scenes a while shirt is very bluish! In bright scenes a white shirt is totally white!

I got to work on this after I come back from India


But Hey, Thanks a TON for the inspiration!











Oh ya.All this improvement has made regular DVDs look far more fuzzy (by comparison) and slightly unwatchable. I guess NOW I want to buy a HD-DVD player.



Now, only if I can get it up and running again!


----------



## tse

If the heaters are not lit then the tubes no workey. That should be an easy fix as the circuit is pretty simple.


Scott


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If the heaters are not lit then the tubes no workey. That should be an easy fix as the circuit is pretty simple.
> 
> 
> Scott




Having not looked at the schematics yet, do all the 3 tubes get their heating voltage from one circuit? Must be like that and maybe that ckt is on the motherboard...no wait...maybe one of those cards right? The neckboards wont have that, or do they?


But it was working soooooo nicely for so many days..







How could this happen all of a sudden?




Oh well , as they say in Hindi .... "Nazar lag gayee" which means something like if you talk good about something it goes bad! ?


Same thing as we say "touch wood or knock on wood here"


----------



## rajdude

Ok guys, I am back from India and ready to take up this "troubleshooting project".


So where do I start?


I just re-read Scott's instructions about measuring voltage; will do that ASAP


----------



## rajdude

Hi Scott,

I measured the things you told me to, here are the results:


About the two ends of the brown power resistor, on the green CRT card:

Situation: No input:

Both ends = +179 V DC

Situation: Internal Test pattern on:


>> V at pin that is nearest the bottom of the card = 179 V


>> V at the end nearest the middle of the card = around +250V (but my DMM beeps, indicating some error or something.)



The V at the G-2 pot pins is around 850V at the right side and around 250V at the left side.


The tube heaters are not lit.

I hear the crackle of HV while starting the PJ.


Any tips / instructions on what can I do?


Meanwhile I will also look into the circuit diagram of the CRT boards.


Thanks again!




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If the 30 code returns "system ok" and it's not lying to you then most likely there is no video driving the tubes. Break out your DVM and measure the end of the big brown power resistor, on the green CRT card, that is nearest the bottom of the card. Should be either +180V or +190V. Now measure the end nearest the middle of the card. If it measures the same then the video is not there and the tube(s) will be cutoff. If it measures 10 or move volts less than the other end then there is probably video present and something else is causing the problem. The tube heaters are lit? Do you hear the cackle of the HV coming up? While you have the DVM near the CRT card measure the G-2 pot pins. There should be +400 to +850V there. Don't worry, we'll get you through this.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## tse

The heaters not being lit is probably the biggest reason for no picture. The heater regulator is a TO3 package device that is located on the right side of the SMPS box. The regulator is plugged into a brown plastic socket that is very cheap. There were often problems with the regulator pins not making good contact with the socket. Many times they were just soldered together at the factory. Check this first.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Scott,

I removed the regulator from the TO3 socket. It's pins were pretty tight, I could feel a lot of resistance while pulling it out from the socket. I zapped the pins with some deoxit and installed it again.


No improvement.







PJ still behaves the same.


Any Other tips?


Thanks

Rajiv



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The heaters not being lit is probably the biggest reason for no picture. The heater regulator is a TO3 package device that is located on the right side of the SMPS box. The regulator is plugged into a brown plastic socket that is very cheap. There were often problems with the regulator pins not making good contact with the socket. Many times they were just soldered together at the factory. Check this first.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## rajdude

Looking at the schematic of the motherboard, the CRT's heaters are supplied straight by a "Filament Regulator". That 4 pin connector is labelled J41. But I cannot find any reference to the actual IC - LM384 (correct?) on the motherboard schematic.

[edit: found it on the SMPS schematic]


I also cant find the circuit diagram (if there is one). At least there should be some diagram which depicts what is being fed to the regulator.

[edit: found it on the SMPS schematic]



Maybe the regulator is bad?

Maybe there is a fuse in the circuit somewhere ?

[edit: found a fuse in the ckt too, on the SMPS schematic]


----------



## rajdude

I have a very bad (almost unreadable) service manual of the 2000. I can see the regulator on the SMPS board in that (80725C Block diagram) But the associated schematic has no reference to it (strange!)



Looks like the regulator circuit was improved after the 2000 model. The x600 manual shows the regulator has changed to a LT1083CP and moved to a seperate board - 81256


----------



## rajdude

Ok ,

it seems to me that the regulator must have gone bad.


The regulator ckt is being fed from the SMPS via the fuse board. The fuse board has a tell-tale LED. [edit: wrong!] On my PJ that LED is lit, so the fuse must be intact.


Maybe the regulator burnt out or something.


I should be able to prod the case of the regulator IC (the output) with my DMM and check the voltage, right ?
*Anyone knows how much is the output of the regulator??*


----------



## tse

Attached is part of the SMPS schematic. It looks like the filament rail doesn't have an LED on it so best to check right on F1. It should have about +10V on BOTH ends. The regulator output should be +6.3V.


Scott

 

FilReg.pdf 45.5244140625k . file


----------



## rajdude

You are right Scott! The LED is really not there. I must need more coffee!


I tried to check the output voltage on the regulator but it is dificult to do so with the insulated cover on. There is a hole for the test prod, but that is too small, I shall have to improvise! Maybe I will drill another hole at the side.


Oh yes, I tried to run the PJ without the adjacent board, but it gave me some "interlock error". Understandably, that board must be required before the PJ will fire up.


I will try out these things and report back, seems to me that it is either the fuse or the regulator IC.


Thanks again!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Attached is part of the SMPS schematic. It looks like the filament rail doesn't have an LED on it so best to check right on F1. It should have about +10V on BOTH ends. The regulator output should be +6.3V.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## rajdude

I just tested the fuse, sure enough it was blown. I replaced it and it blew up again!

















So maybe the IC is burnt out. Is there something else I can check before ordering a new IC ?










Oh yes, I can take out the IC from the socket and check if the output pin is shorted to GND.










Thanks

Rajiv


----------



## tse

Hopefully it is something other than the regulator. Those might be expensive and hard to find, these days.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Scott,

I took out the LM338K (the regulator) none of the pins are shorted out.


Then I checked the filament to GND resistance, they are not shorted out either (all three tubes measure around 4.2 ohms)


Looks like the three tubes' heaters/filaments are connected in parallel since the resistance drops as I connect the headers one by one.


I dont see the LM338 depicted in any circuit diagram. The block diagram shows it but does not show its circuit. This IC must have the associated circuitery like the 2 resistors and some caps somewhere! I wonder where they are.
















They do not show up on the SMPS' schematic. If I can find them, I can check for a bad resistor/capacitor.


You have any idea where to find them?



By the way, Mouser has this IC for $7.28 ....not bad at all








http://www.mouser.com/search/refine.aspx?Ntt=511-LM338K 


Do you think it is worth ordering / giving a try. Or do you think I should look somewhere else in the PJ for faults first?




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hopefully it is something other than the regulator. Those might be expensive and hard to find, these days.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## tse

Hey Rajiv,


The regulator circuit is in the upper right corner of the pdf. Try removing the regulator from it's socket and see if the fuse blows then. It's possible that C9 has gotten old and dried out. The rectifier, CR10, could have shorted. Not too much else there. The filaments are connected in parallel. When warm they draw about 1/4A each.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Good morning Scott!

Strangely I dont see the LM338 regulator anywhere in that circuit!

Maybe since it is off board, they did not depict it ? But that would be strange.

They also dont show the small 3 pin connector on this schematic. But that connector is shown on the motherboard's diagram.


Anyway, I will check out those components and report back tonight.


Thanks!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Rajiv,
> 
> 
> The regulator circuit is in the upper right corner of the pdf. Try removing the regulator from it's socket and see if the fuse blows then. It's possible that C9 has gotten old and dried out. The rectifier, CR10, could have shorted. Not too much else there. The filaments are connected in parallel. When warm they draw about 1/4A each.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## rajdude









Scott,

I am really stumped on this one!


I checked each and every component in that ckt. Everything is fine !

I even tested the regulator IC in a typical application circuit, it is really working as intended, even with a load !


So there has to be something wrong elsewhere.


One thing.....when the fuse blows, it blows very slowly. ....takes approx two seconds to glow red and then blow up. It does not blow instantly like what would happen if there was a short-circuit somewhere.


You got any more tips ?


----------



## tse

Next thing to try would be to pull the regulator from the socket and run with a new fuse. Without a load the filter cap (C9) will charge to +10 to +20V and the fuse shouldn't blow. Try connecting a power resistor (10 to 100 ohm) from the fuse to ground (chassis). The output should then be near +10V. At least try with IC removed if you don't have a power resistor handy and see what happens. Connect your DVM to the fuse and ground and monitor the voltage as you turn on set.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Before I read this post, I was in the basement doing exactly what you told me here !










Yes, without a load, the voltage is 20.57 volts DC. Sorry, cant find a power resistor....will go to the 'shack tomorrow morning to get one.


Next I put in a new fuse and also the IC . I also noticed that the fuse blew instantly this time. I had my DMM on the fuse but the fuse blew too fast for the DMM to register anything.


Now with the fuse blown, one end of the fuse is at zero volts but the other is at 2. (something) volts. Does this give a clue ?


-Rajiv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Next thing to try would be to pull the regulator from the socket and run with a new fuse. Without a load the filter cap (C9) will charge to +10 to +20V and the fuse shouldn't blow. Try connecting a power resistor (10 to 100 ohm) from the fuse to ground (chassis). The output should then be near +10V. At least try with IC removed if you don't have a power resistor handy and see what happens. Connect your DVM to the fuse and ground and monitor the voltage as you turn on set.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## tse

Hmmm. With fuse and without regulator you get about +21V on the fuse and it doesn't blow?


Connect regulator and fuse blows?


Sounds like the overload is on the output side of the regulator. It is a 5A part so will not current limit until well after the fuse is blown.


Did you try unplugging all the CRT cards from the mother bd and run with regulator in place?


You must be getting a pretty good size pile of dead fuses. Yikes!


The insulator under the regulator is in good shape? No metal burrs poking through?


Scott


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmmm. With fuse and without regulator you get about +21V on the fuse and it doesn't blow?
> 
> 
> Connect regulator and fuse blows?



Yes !


















> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sounds like the overload is on the output side of the regulator. It is a 5A part so will not current limit until well after the fuse is blown.
> 
> 
> Did you try unplugging all the CRT cards from the mother bd and run with regulator in place?



Not yet, although I did think about it.










I did not do it because I thought maybe I would damage something OR maybe the PJ wont even switch on. But now that you recommend that, I will do that tomorrow night. I'm not home today.


Do you think there is a possibility that a tube's heater is shorted out or something?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> You must be getting a pretty good size pile of dead fuses. Yikes!
> 
> 
> The insulator under the regulator is in good shape? No metal burrs poking through?
> 
> 
> Scott



Yes, I did check that but will re-check it.


Thanks for helping me on this, Scott ! I hope we solve this mystery soon, my wife is like..How come you bought this pile of junk! 


HA HA !


----------



## rajdude

Hi Scott,

I did some tests and seems like it boils down to one thing. The fuse in the filament heater circuit cant take the load of all 3 (RGB) heaters simultaneously!










I know it is rather strange but here are my findings:

Situation : All CRT cards disconnected:

V at o/p of reg IC = +6.96 VDC

V at fuse = +16.9 VDC

Situation: Fuse taken out and All CRT cards disconnected:

V at fuse = +10 VAC

Situation: Only RED CRT connected

V at o/p of reg IC = +6.94 VDC

Filament = ON

Test pattern = OK









Situation: Only RED + GREEN CRT connected

V at o/p of reg IC = +6.91 VDC

Filament = ON

Test pattern = OK









Situation: Only BLUE CRT connected

V at o/p of reg IC = +6.94 VDC

Filament = ON

Test pattern = OK









Situation: All CRT connected

Fuse blows

















Note that the input of that IC is almost 17 volts and it is taking it down to 7 volts.....dropping 10 volts. That may be excessive or is that how it is supposed to be??

Let me check the datasheet of that IC to see what they recommend.


Meanwhile, do you think I should try it out with a 3 or a 4 AMP fuse ? I hope I wont blow out anything.


----------



## rajdude

Scott,

From what I see in the datasheet, around 3 volts drop at the regulator IC is a good figure for max current o/p.


Also since you mentioned earlier that the input should be around 10 volts (measured at the fuse) but my Voltage at the fuse measures 17 volts, maybe that is the problem!! ??


----------



## rajdude

YAHOO !


I got the PJ up and running again !


I fed the heater ckt with an external supply to find out what was going on. Started with a current limited setting at 1 amp and found out that the ckt is actually drawing around 2 amp at startup and soon settles to around 1 amp. Check out my setup in the attachment.


So I changed the fuse to a slow blow version of 2 Amps. And now the PJ is back to normal !


Nice!


Thanks a ton Scott for helping me out here.

More later. Wife is asking for a treat !


----------



## tse

Good man! So it was only fuse fatigue? That circuit does put the filter cap charge current through the fuse. The high frequency AC current tends to heat the fuse element more than the DC current. Way to go!


Scott


----------



## mtmelvin

A treat? You mean she wants you to put the Ampro up for sale now that you got it working?










Congrats man. Way to hang in there. This thread is destined to be the longest "It's not working... it's working... it's not working... it's working" thread ever.


Now go enjoy some movies!


-Mark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> YAHOO !
> 
> 
> I got the PJ up and running again !
> 
> 
> I fed the heater ckt with an external supply to find out what was going on. Started with a current limited setting at 1 amp and found out that the ckt is actually drawing around 2 amp at startup and soon settles to around 1 amp. Check out my setup in the attachment.
> 
> 
> So I changed the fuse to a slow blow version of 2 Amps. And now the PJ is back to normal !
> 
> 
> Nice!
> 
> 
> Thanks a ton Scott for helping me out here.
> 
> More later. Wife is asking for a treat !


----------



## rajdude

Thanks Scott!
















It was just a simple fuse thing. But I wonder why it was working for so long and all of a sudden the ckt started drawing more at startup?







But Hey ! I finally got some use out of that nice PSU!


Now I wanted to ask you one more thing. Since the PJ is down on the floor, *is there anything I could do to improve it* while I am at it?


Here is a little list of what I was thinking about:

*1. Set the gray-scale.*

My PJ's grayscale tracking is pretty bad. Whites are white at high IRE but very bluish at low IRE.


There is a procedure described in the 2000's service manual (page 3-7, title - Analog RGB1 replacement procedure). It talks about setting up the grayscale using an oscilloscope. Do you think it is worth it?

If so please guide me in this:

1. It talks about giving an input of 1 v p-p color bars with IWQ, burst and chroma off. I don't have a NTSC color bar generator. Can I use a HTPC with a test pattern generator instead? If yes which test pattern should I use?


2. It also talks about a 1 in 3 out distribution amp. I don't have it. Can I just do all three colors one by one instead?

*2. Do the optimization for 1080i procedure* you mentioned sometime back in another thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8537631 


I will need to borrow a riser card from Mike, if he still has one I can borrow


----------



## rajdude

Thanks Mark!

Well... she has not mentioned that (yet).


But I dont want to give it up yet. I think there is some more performance to be extracted out of this thing!


About movies......sure ! But I will set it up on the floor/coffee table for now. Give me more access to tweak that thing









Bring them on !



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A treat? You mean she wants you to put the Ampro up for sale now that you got it working?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats man. Way to hang in there. This thread is destined to be the longest "It's not working... it's working... it's not working... it's working" thread ever.
> 
> 
> Now go enjoy some movies!
> 
> 
> -Mark


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks Scott!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was just a simple fuse thing. But I wonder why it was working for so long and all of a sudden the ckt started drawing more at startup?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But Hey ! I finally got some use out of that nice PSU!
> 
> 
> Now I wanted to ask you one more thing. Since the PJ is down on the floor, *is there anything I could do to improve it* while I am at it?
> 
> 
> Here is a little list of what I was thinking about:
> 
> *1. Set the gray-scale.*
> 
> My PJ's grayscale tracking is pretty bad. Whites are white at high IRE but very bluish at low IRE.
> 
> 
> There is a procedure described in the 2000's service manual (page 3-7, title - Analog RGB1 replacement procedure). It talks about setting up the grayscale using an oscilloscope. Do you think it is worth it?
> 
> If you have a scope it would be worth checking the sub-brite settings.
> 
> If so please guide me in this:
> 
> 1. It talks about giving an input of 1 v p-p color bars with IWQ, burst and chroma off. I don't have a NTSC color bar generator. Can I use a HTPC with a test pattern generator instead? If yes which test pattern should I use?A gray stairstep pattern would be best. Use whatever format/resolution that you normally watch.
> 
> 
> 2. It also talks about a 1 in 3 out distribution amp. I don't have it. Can I just do all three colors one by one instead?
> Actually, yes. Just as easy to use graybars if you have it. The important thing is to verify or set the black bar, of each color, to the same DC level.
> 
> 
> *2. Do the optimization for 1080i procedure* you mentioned sometime back in another thread.
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8537631
> 
> 
> I will need to borrow a riser card from Mike, if he still has one I can borrow


You can do the greyscale adjustments with the RGB board in place.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Guys,

What was the code to display an test pattern which is synced to the input being fed to the PJ?


I forgot it and cant seem to find it.


68-CODE?


----------



## tse

Press "4" then "test". The "step" button selects different patterns.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Thanks Scott,

here is a version of a cheat-sheet I use sometimes. Not 100% accurate but getting there.

I updated it with this info:

 

Ampro 4200G Codes.doc 32.5k . file


----------



## rajdude

So I finally got some time today O hook up the o'scope to the HTPC and , for the first time in my life, view video patterns!


Before I play with my PJ, I thought I should look at what the TPs look straight from the video card's output.

*Here is a test pattern I am using (1280x720p):*










*Here is a scoped image of this test pattern taken from a nVidia Qudro FX500:*











Notice all the stair-steps are of equal height.









*Now check out the same TP outputted from an exact same PC but with the on-board intel video chipset's output:*











I notice that the stairs are a little curved to the right an the steps at the top are shorter in height.

*

Does it signify black crush?*


----------



## rajdude

One more question about the TPs:


while taking the above shots the scope is at 0.2v/div (vertical). Hence you can see that the output of the Quadro video card is 1.25 volts p-p


The instructions in the Ampro 2000 manual state that I should input a 1 volt p-p.


Does the difference matter?












Interestingly the other card's output is lower.


----------



## rajdude

Ok something weird is happening in my PJ (or maybe I connnected something wrongly)


Following the directions of the service manual, I connected the probe to TP2. (actually I am not sure if I really connected it to TP2 since that test point is missing. The manual shows it to be right behind the big heatsink. There is another TP which is in the center of the board , which is where I connected the probe)


Anyway, I get a pattern which is (sort of) reverse of what I should be getting. See it here:











I can set the peak white to be +40V. But there is no way I can adjust the black level to be +170v.


In fact it is around -80v (MINUS!







) It is adjustable between 0 and -80v


What's wrong?


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So I finally got some time today O hook up the o'scope to the HTPC and , for the first time in my life, view video patterns!
> 
> 
> Before I play with my PJ, I thought I should look at what the TPs look straight from the video card's output.
> 
> *Here is a test pattern I am using (1280x720p):*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Here is a scoped image of this test pattern taken from a nVidia Qudro FX500:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice all the stair-steps are of equal height.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Now check out the same TP outputted from an exact same PC but with the on-board intel video chipset's output:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that the stairs are a little curved to the right an the steps at the top are shorter in height.
> 
> *
> 
> Does it signify black crush?*



Now you're gonna have some fun! Sticking a scope in there. The stairstep pattern with the shorter steps is actually showing a little white crush. Like the picture on the monitor the steps get brighter as you move from left to right.


Scott


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One more question about the TPs:
> 
> 
> while taking the above shots the scope is at 0.2v/div (vertical). Hence you can see that the output of the Quadro video card is 1.25 volts p-p
> 
> 
> The instructions in the Ampro 2000 manual state that I should input a 1 volt p-p.
> 
> 
> Does the difference matter?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly the other card's output is lower.



The video signal is not terminated with 75 ohms when connected to the scope (1 Meg Ohm input). When connected to the RGB card (75 Ohm input) it will be half the unterminated amplitude. For RGB the signals should be 0.7Vpp when terminated. Both of your signals are low in amplitude.


Scott


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok something weird is happening in my PJ (or maybe I connnected something wrongly)
> 
> 
> Following the directions of the service manual, I connected the probe to TP2. (actually I am not sure if I really connected it to TP2 since that test point is missing. The manual shows it to be right behind the big heatsink. There is another TP which is in the center of the board , which is where I connected the probe)
> 
> 
> Anyway, I get a pattern which is (sort of) reverse of what I should be getting. See it here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can set the peak white to be +40V. But there is no way I can adjust the black level to be +170v.
> 
> 
> In fact it is around -80v (MINUS!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) It is adjustable between 0 and -80v
> 
> 
> What's wrong?



The CRT card drives the tube cathode with an inverted signal. Black will be around +175V (Brightness and sub-brite settings control exactly where). The brighter parts of the signal will be lower voltage. Set to +40V with contrast and sub-contrast controls.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Scott, Thanks!

Just clarifying...

Are you saying that I should have the left end of the pattern at +170v and the right side at +40v?

Dont you think those voltages be negative instead?


Pl see this image:

Is my understanding correct ?











I also have a "invert" switch on the scope. I can use it to make the pattern look like as shown in the manual.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The CRT card drives the tube cathode with an inverted signal. Black will be around +175V (Brightness and sub-brite settings control exactly where). The brighter parts of the signal will be lower voltage. Set to +40V with contrast and sub-contrast controls.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## tse

Your illustration is correct. Black is indeed +175V (G-2 effects that but the video amplifier is happiest there). As the cathode voltage decreases the tube conducts more. G-1 is normally at zero volts. A tube has to be turned off by reverse biasing (G-1 negative relative to K). The closer to the same voltage these two are the higher the tube conducts. Seems backwards but that is how it works.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Thanks for all the tips Scott.


I have successfully done the procedure. All three tubes' are at 170 volts (the manual says 170) I could NOT get the bright end to be at 40v. The most I could get it was at 42.5v


I guess this is because the signal from the VGA card is less than .7 v p-p, right?


Anyway, after doing that I see that the pic shows not much improvement. The whole pic was a little reddish (it always was like that unless I adjust the signal pots) Hence I adjusted the pots and now it is pretty white at high IREs.


The low IREs are another story. The image is greenish-bluish in dark scenes.


I guess i will have to do the 2-point calibration by the eye now, right? (no colorimeter, sorry !)


One thing did change a bit. The pic bloomed at around 32 brightness. Now I can raise the brightness to around 45 before it starts blooming.


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the tips Scott.
> 
> 
> I have successfully done the procedure. All three tubes' are at 170 volts (the manual says 170) I could NOT get the bright end to be at 40v. The most I could get it was at 42.5v
> 
> This whole exercise is to get the video amplifiers into a good operating region without black or white crush.
> 
> 
> I guess this is because the signal from the VGA card is less than .7 v p-p, right?
> 
> Yeah, the circuits are designed for nominal input = 0.7Vpp. Your input is close enough. It will work ok.
> 
> 
> Anyway, after doing that I see that the pic shows not much improvement. The whole pic was a little reddish (it always was like that unless I adjust the signal pots) Hence I adjusted the pots and now it is pretty white at high IREs.
> 
> 
> The low IREs are another story. The image is greenish-bluish in dark scenes.
> 
> Set your contrast for a dim picture. Set blue cut-off so only red and green are showing. Adjust red and green G-2 so picture is yellow and darkest bar of stairstep pattern is not visible. Sit in the dark for a while so your eyes are used to it. Now turn on the blue and adjust blue G-2 for gray.
> 
> 
> I guess i will have to do the 2-point calibration by the eye now, right? (no colorimeter, sorry !)
> 
> 
> One thing did change a bit. The pic bloomed at around 32 brightness. Now I can raise the brightness to around 45 before it starts blooming.


You did set the cathode levels to +175V with brite at 80%?


Once the dim picture is right set contrast to 90% and once again cut-off the blue. Adjust the red and green pot near the input connector for yellow. Then turn on blue and adjust for gray.


I don't know what the manual says to do but you want to set the levels with the scope with the remote brite at 80% and contrast at 80%. Pots at the RGB board input connectors max CW.


Scott


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You did set the cathode levels to +175V with brite at 80%?



Nope, I set the cathode levels to +170v with the brite and contrast set to 95. (this is as per the service manual of 2000. Were the 4200's levels different?











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Set your contrast for a dim picture. Set blue cut-off so only red and green are showing. Adjust red and green G-2 so picture is yellow and darkest bar of stairstep pattern is not visible. Sit in the dark for a while so your eyes are used to it. Now turn on the blue and adjust blue G-2 for gray.
> 
> 
> Once the dim picture is right set contrast to 90% and once again cut-off the blue. Adjust the red and green pot near the input connector for yellow. Then turn on blue and adjust for gray.



This procedure is very interesting. I will try it out soon.


You mention that adjust blue G-2 for gray Was that a typo?









I thought G2 had nothing to do with the grayscale adjustment.










My PJ blooms big time if I turn the contrast controls over 50 or so.









Is it safe for it to be at 90 for a short time when I am adjusting something?


Also is this premature blooming (at 50 contrast) normal?









Shouldn't it bloom over 95 or something?




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't know what the manual says to do but you want to set the levels with the scope with the remote brite at 80% and contrast at 80%. Pots at the RGB board input connectors max CW.
> 
> 
> Scott



The manual says keep brite and contrast at 95/95. Maybe 4200 was different?


Here are the two pages from the Ampro 2000's manual which I was following:

*Page1*










*Page2*











Thanks again !


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Nope, I set the cathode levels to +170v with the brite and contrast set to 95. (this is as per the service manual of 2000. Were the 4200's levels different?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. That was right. I forgot the exact number.
> 
> 
> This procedure is very interesting. I will try it out soon.
> 
> 
> You mention that adjust blue G-2 for gray Was that a typo?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought G2 had nothing to do with the grayscale adjustment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a typo. Tiny little turns of G-2 will set the bars to gray in the darker areas. This should be set before the brighter areas.
> 
> 
> My PJ blooms big time if I turn the contrast controls over 50 or so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it safe for it to be at 90 for a short time when I am adjusting something?
> 
> What do you mean by blooming?
> 
> 
> Also is this premature blooming (at 50 contrast) normal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't it bloom over 95 or something?
> 
> Nothing bad should be happening with contrast at 50. It is normal to run brightness and contrast at 80 or higher.
> 
> 
> 
> The manual says keep brite and contrast at 95/95. Maybe 4200 was different?
> 
> Nope. That's the same.
> 
> 
> Here are the two pages from the Ampro 2000's manual which I was following:
> 
> *Page1*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Page2*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again !



's alright, 's ok.


----------



## rajdude

Hi Scott,

by "blooming" I am refering to the phenomenon of:

Spread of spot on cathode-ray tube phosphor due to excessive beam current.


At very high brightness the beam loses its focus. This usually happens at very high levels of contrast and brightness, but in my PJ this starts happening at around 45 contrast.


The image loses focus....the scan lines dissapear into a fat blob.....it looks pretty bad. But by that time the image is extremely bright.


I think my brightness controls are off.


Thanks for the other tips, I will try them out shortly.


----------



## rajdude

WOW !

I CANNOT BELIEVE MY EYES !

Scott your procedure made a difference of night and day on my PJ.


I just can't describe how good it looks after doing that procedure. I have proper color balance now. Whites are white no matter it is dark or light. I have shadow detail like I have never seen on ANY PJ! I swear I can see seams on People's black jackets! AND blacks are still black, not gray!

Caucasian skin tones are just about right on......well maybe a little pinkish. The excessive red is gone now!


The image simply looks awesome! I wish I could post a picture (can'tno camera..got stolen in India!........but I am getting another one.soon)


So , Exactly what did I do? Looks like some sort of grayscale calibration but done without a colorimeter. Frankly, at first, it sounded like snake-oil to me !! (not really HA HA ! I am exaggerating)

*Hey ! This procedure should be a sticky here!*

Who-ever has NOT tried this on their CRT PJ (and has not got a professional calibration done) is missing out BIG TIME!

I took like 15 minutes to do it and it made a HUGE HUGE difference!


Scott, Dude, thanks a million!


----------



## rajdude

Just in case someone wonders what I am talking about, here is what Scott told me to do:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> *Set your contrast for a dim picture. Set blue cut-off so only red and green are showing. Adjust red and green G-2 so picture is yellow and darkest bar of stairstep pattern is not visible. Sit in the dark for a while so your eyes are used to it. Now turn on the blue and adjust blue G-2 for gray.
> 
> 
> Once the dim picture is right set contrast to 90% and once again cut-off the blue. Adjust the red and green pot near the input connector for yellow. Then turn on blue and adjust for gray.*



Man! after this I was awake until after midnight...could not get my eyes off the screen!


----------



## tse

Hey Rajiv,


That procedure was the official Ampro color balance technique. They were too cheap to buy a color meter so it was all done by eye. The yellow then gray method works pretty good. I'm glad it worked out for you. The 4200 isn't a bad projector. It should do a smokin' 1080i and 720p.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Oh Yeah !

NOW it sure does a "smoking 1080i"!

















I notice 1080i actually has slightly more detail on this PJ than 720p. But then I have not dialed in the focus and schempflug 100% yet (it is still on the table). Once I get to hang it again I will do all those things and post some screenshots. Got to still buy the digi-cam.










Last night I showed it to the wife, she was mighty impressed. (she is especially hard to impress)







She kept pointing out the detail in people's faces and how accurate the colors were now.










Hey... got to ask you two things.

*[1] About the maximizing of rasters.*


Is it OK to mess around with the width pot?










The thing is ...even with the width control maxed out the tube faces have quite a bit of unused real-estate at the sides. (especially at 720p, at 1080i it is much smaller) The unused space may be half an inch at both sides at 720p.


I understand there is a width pot on one of the cards which maximises tube usage. But then I read something about overheating neck cards if you increase the width.


What is your advise on this?

*[2] How to center the raster?*


On the red tube the raster is not centered.







I know this PJ does not have raster centering rings, so I used to move the focus magnet and the CPC magnets around to center the raster.


But what is the right way?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Rajiv,
> 
> 
> That procedure was the official Ampro color balance technique. They were too cheap to buy a color meter so it was all done by eye. The yellow then gray method works pretty good. I'm glad it worked out for you. The 4200 isn't a bad projector. It should do a smokin' 1080i and 720p.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh Yeah !
> 
> NOW it sure does a "smoking 1080i"!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I notice 1080i actually has slightly more detail on this PJ than 720p. But then I have not dialed in the focus and schempflug 100% yet (it is still on the table). Once I get to hang it again I will do all those things and post some screenshots. Got to still buy the digi-cam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last night I showed it to the wife, she was mighty impressed. (she is especially hard to impress)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She kept pointing out the detail in people's faces and how accurate the colors were now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey... got to ask you two things.
> 
> *[1] About the maximizing of rasters.*
> 
> 
> Is it OK to mess around with the width pot?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is ...even with the width control maxed out the tube faces have quite a bit of unused real-estate at the sides. (especially at 720p, at 1080i it is much smaller) The unused space may be half an inch at both sides at 720p.
> 
> 
> I understand there is a width pot on one of the cards which maximises tube usage. But then I read something about overheating neck cards if you increase the width.
> 
> 
> What is your advise on this?
> 
> *[2] How to center the raster?*
> 
> 
> On the red tube the raster is not centered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know this PJ does not have raster centering rings, so I used to move the focus magnet and the CPC magnets around to center the raster.
> 
> 
> But what is the right way?



If your horizontal frequency is below 48KHz you can set the width as wide as you want. 720P is about 45KHz so should be no problem. You can check by entering 36 then press "code". It is the pot on the HOT bd that is an inch or so in front of the fuse. The HOT bd switches the retrace time to 3uS once the horizontal freq passes 48KHz. The short retrace time places a higher voltage on the output mosfets and can become too high with wide raster/high sweep freq.


You have a very unique 4200 if there are no centering rings. We only made a few before we realised they would be a good addition. If you are up to installing them I can send you three sets. There really isn't a good solution to positioning the rasters without them. You can rotate the focus mags and get some movement. A little convergance shift is ok. The CPC mags should be used for getting best focus.


Scott


----------



## Ray Cendroski

Scott


As usual that's really great info about width and centering.


My 4200 is one of the later models that uses the P19 style tubes, and it doesn't have any centering rings either. I was able to get the blue centered by rotating the focus ring assembly. It took me two years to figure that one out.


Do you know if the centering rings would work on a 4600 model? Is there anything mechanically different about the mounting against the deflection yoke?


I recently replaced the 4200 with the 4600 in my rear screen setup, and I am totally blown away with the performance of this thing. I had to replace the tubes because the chassis had over 30K hours on it. I used 3 new P19LUG's with a red "C" element upgrade. The electrical focus is razor sharp on all three tubes. The 1080I scan lines are hurting my eyes at 12 feet. I need a 1080P solution at this point.


Anyway - the red and blue rasters are off center on the 4600. I can max out the shift adjustments to get them to where they need to be, but a static solution would be so much more elegant.


We're all much appreciative of your support.


Ray


----------



## tse

Ray,


I'll make you the same offer to send centering rings. They will work with the 4600 but you will have to figure a way to mount them. There isn't an easy way to attach them like on the 4200. To get static shift without rings only requires a DC current through the deflection yokes or the registration coils. An isolated DC DC converter, an inductor to isolate the AC signal, and a resistor to set the current. One amp through the reg coil will shift the image about 1/2" on tube face. Parts for one reg coil would be about $20.


Scott


----------



## mtmelvin

Scott-


Why on earth are there no centering rings on the 4600? I might be interested in adding some to mine. Do you have enough to go around?


Also, thanks for all of the great information you have shared in this thread.


Rajiv-


Looking forward to seeing some screenshots!


-Mark


----------



## tse

Two reasons:


1. No easy (cheap) way to do it.


2. It was becoming more and more obvious that things like centering rings took more technical ability, to set correctly, than most sellers, buyers, owners had or wanted to learn.


The unfortunate thing is by then all the engineering resources were going into light valve and DLP projectors. Management looked into the crystal ball and made their decision. They were partially right.


Scott


----------



## mtmelvin

Scott-


Could you explain to me why the centering rings are easy to add to the 4200 but not the 4600? What am I missing?

Thanks.


-Mark


----------



## tse

Different yokes. The 4200 uses Sony yokes, the 36/4600 uses Thomson. You just had to glue a couple of small cable clamps on the back of the Sony yokes and instant centering ring mounts. The Thomson yokes had less astigmatism distortion in the corners. So the Sonys and centering rings went away.


Scott


----------



## mtmelvin

I see. Thanks Scott. This is what Chip has been working on, I think. I'll wait until he comes up with a solution










-Mark


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I see. Thanks Scott. This is what Chip has been working on, I think. I'll wait until he comes up with a solution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Mark



It's done but un-tested







I probably won't get a chance to pull my tubes and install the modded covergence yoke until later in the week. E-mail me and I'll fill you in. [email protected] 


Chip


----------



## Ray Cendroski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ray,
> 
> 
> I'll make you the same offer to send centering rings. They will work with the 4600 but you will have to figure a way to mount them. There isn't an easy way to attach them like on the 4200. To get static shift without rings only requires a DC current through the deflection yokes or the registration coils. An isolated DC DC converter, an inductor to isolate the AC signal, and a resistor to set the current. One amp through the reg coil will shift the image about 1/2" on tube face. Parts for one reg coil would be about $20.
> 
> 
> Scott



Thanks Scott - I'll send you a follow up PM about the rings. Looks like it's worth a shot.


The electronic centering circuit also doesn't look as bad as I thought it would be. Looks like since it's in parallel to the existing wiring, there might not be as much risk in getting a deflection burn from loss of sweep.


Ray


----------



## rajdude

Interesting things are happening in this thread !


Scott, the freq. counter shows 44xxx for 720p. At 1080i it is much smaller (I forget). Hence I am going to try out the width pot soon.


As for the centering rings, this PJ may already have them (if I recall correctly). I kinda remember they were extremely hard to rotate.

Thanks for your generous offer, but I will check first (ASAP).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If your horizontal frequency is below 48KHz you can set the width as wide as you want. 720P is about 45KHz so should be no problem. You can check by entering 36 then press "code". It is the pot on the HOT bd that is an inch or so in front of the fuse. The HOT bd switches the retrace time to 3uS once the horizontal freq passes 48KHz. The short retrace time places a higher voltage on the output mosfets and can become too high with wide raster/high sweep freq.
> 
> 
> You have a very unique 4200 if there are no centering rings. We only made a few before we realised they would be a good addition. If you are up to installing them I can send you three sets. There really isn't a good solution to positioning the rasters without them. You can rotate the focus mags and get some movement. A little convergance shift is ok. The CPC mags should be used for getting best focus.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## rajdude

Ray,

your comments about the 4600 are tempting, to say the least.









But I got scanlines at 1080i too...... BIG ones..... and my tubes are the older Sonys 09MIs!


At 720p they start filling in. Last I checked 1080p was pretty soft. I wish this PJ has better EM focus.


Does the 4600 have enough bandwidth to do 1080p? I heard they dont.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ray Cendroski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> As usual that's really great info about width and centering.
> 
> 
> My 4200 is one of the later models that uses the P19 style tubes, and it doesn't have any centering rings either. I was able to get the blue centered by rotating the focus ring assembly. It took me two years to figure that one out.
> 
> 
> Do you know if the centering rings would work on a 4600 model? Is there anything mechanically different about the mounting against the deflection yoke?
> 
> 
> I recently replaced the 4200 with the 4600 in my rear screen setup, and I am totally blown away with the performance of this thing. I had to replace the tubes because the chassis had over 30K hours on it. I used 3 new P19LUG's with a red "C" element upgrade. The electrical focus is razor sharp on all three tubes. The 1080I scan lines are hurting my eyes at 12 feet. I need a 1080P solution at this point.
> 
> 
> Anyway - the red and blue rasters are off center on the 4600. I can max out the shift adjustments to get them to where they need to be, but a static solution would be so much more elegant.
> 
> 
> We're all much appreciative of your support.
> 
> 
> Ray


----------



## mtmelvin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does the 4600 have enough bandwidth to do 1080p? I heard they dont.



Apparently not, or perhaps just barely. This is why Scott was working on a solution using Marquee neck cards in the Ampro. The Marquee neck cards have much higher bandwidth I guess.


I think he eventually decided it wasn't practical... or something. I'd still love to see it happen.


-Mark


----------



## shaz782

Mark,


If you have the source try setting it up at 1080p, maximise the raster usuage. Your setup has to be good. But I'm running 1080p on a 4300 and the picture is pretty darn good. The colors, are as always with Ampro stunning. I have Green and Red C-Element (color corrected) on mine. More bandwith, raster centring and the optic mods (Chip is working on that) would be great though.


Shaz


----------



## rajdude

Hi Scott,

I peeped into my PJ last night. It sure does have those rings.










Now I remember adjusting them when I was doing the full astig/focus/centering (while the PJ was hanging) I remember centering the rasters then, but now when I moved the PJ to the table, the red and blue rasters are shifted to the left.


Maybe I should worry about raster centering only after I hang the PJ again.


Those look like 2 brown plastic rings with tabs. Are they moving some magnets or are they magnetized themselves?











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You have a very unique 4200 if there are no centering rings. We only made a few before we realised they would be a good addition. If you are up to installing them I can send you three sets. There really isn't a good solution to positioning the rasters without them. You can rotate the focus mags and get some movement. A little convergance shift is ok. The CPC mags should be used for getting best focus.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## rajdude

Shaz,

How did you maximize the raster usage? Using the width pot?

Any negative effects like unstability / overheating after that?



Also, have you tried 1080i ? My PJ does 1080i the best (as of now) and does not need width adjustment for that rez. At 720p the raster starts getting smaller.


What is the disadvantage of doing a interlaced 1080 instead of progressive?


Does 720p actually have more pixels than 1080i?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaz782* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mark,
> 
> 
> If you have the source try setting it up at 1080p, maximise the raster usuage. Your setup has to be good. But I'm running 1080p on a 4300 and the picture is pretty darn good. The colors, are as always with Ampro stunning. I have Green and Red C-Element (color corrected) on mine. More bandwith, raster centring and the optic mods (Chip is working on that) would be great though.
> 
> 
> Shaz


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Scott,
> 
> I peeped into my PJ last night. It sure does have those rings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I remember adjusting them when I was doing the full astig/focus/centering (while the PJ was hanging) I remember centering the rasters then, but now when I moved the PJ to the table, the red and blue rasters are shifted to the left.
> 
> 
> Maybe I should worry about raster centering only after I hang the PJ again.
> 
> 
> Those look like 2 brown plastic rings with tabs. Are they moving some magnets or are they magnetized themselves?



The centering rings are magnets. Very weak, though. When the tabs are overlapped they have the most strength. If you overlap them (the two fields add) and then rotate them together the raster will move in a circular pattern at max excursion. The raster can be placed anywhere in the circle by adjusting the rings. Place the tabs on opposite sides (the fields cancel) and spin them together the raster should move very little.


Before moving from table to ceiling I like to set sweep for ceiling and set raster position (tube face) on the table. Picture is up side down but it is easier to deal with the rings on the table. It helps alot to pick all the silicon or whatever off the rings before adjusting.


Scott


----------



## mtmelvin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does 720p actually have more pixels than 1080i?



CRT's don't have pixels buddy










Honestly I'm not qualified to answer this question from a technical standpoint. But what I can tall you is that some people seem to prefer 720p, and others prefer 1080i. I think it varries from person to person and you have to consider the variables like the projector, sources, screen size, etc. To say that one is always better than the other is probably not fair.


I'd say try them both and see which one looks better to you. That's what matters most.


-Mark


----------



## rajdude

Dude!

I know that by now! HA HA










I was refering to the resolution (hence the number of pixels) input signal.....the number of pixels you feed your PJ as an input.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CRT's don't have pixels buddy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I'm not qualified to answer this question from a technical standpoint. But what I can tall you is that some people seem to prefer 720p, and others prefer 1080i. I think it varries from person to person and you have to consider the variables like the projector, sources, screen size, etc. To say that one is always better than the other is probably not fair.
> 
> 
> I'd say try them both and see which one looks better to you. That's what matters most.
> 
> 
> -Mark


----------



## shaz782

Hey Rajiv,



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How did you maximize the raster usage? Using the width pot?
> 
> Any negative effects like unstability / overheating after that?



Just using Image Size, I get almost full raster (very close to edge of tube face), I don't seem to have the raster shrinkage problem that u get on your 4200.


No negative effects. I haven't touched any of the pots on the HOT board.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, have you tried 1080i ? My PJ does 1080i the best (as of now) and does not need width adjustment for that rez. At 720p the raster starts getting smaller.
> 
> 
> What is the disadvantage of doing a interlaced 1080 instead of progressive?
> 
> 
> Does 720p actually have more pixels than 1080i?



I have tried 1080i and 720p, preferred 1080p, and to be honest it didn't look soft to me.....but I'm no expert(!) and not seen a G90 in action either!


Shaz


----------



## rajdude

Hmmmm....

That is very interesting! 1080p and no raster shrinking!

You must have a good 4300.


I wonder how much the 4300 is different from the 4200.










I know that the 4600 is substantially different than the 4200.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaz782* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Rajiv,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just using Image Size, I get almost full raster (very close to edge of tube face), I don't seem to have the raster shrinkage problem that u get on your 4200.
> 
> 
> No negative effects. I haven't touched any of the pots on the HOT board.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have tried 1080i and 720p, preferred 1080p, and to be honest it didn't look soft to me.....but I'm no expert(!) and not seen a G90 in action either!
> 
> 
> Shaz


----------



## Robert A. Hill

Ray,

Tse sent me some rings last year and this thread got me motivated to try them on my 3600. I mounted them just forward of the focus yoke. I do not know if these should be in front of the convergence coil or behind so I took the easier route and mounted them behind it. It seems to work.


I took a centering bushing from an old focus yoke to use in mounting them as the hole in the rings are much too large for the 8" tube neck. I used a wire tie (white in photo) to secure the rings close to the convergence yoke. One of the yoke clamps would probably be tighter.


My blue would not center completely even after rotating the focus yoke 180°, With the rings, I reset the blue shift from 77 back to 50 and centered the raster completely. I had to keep the yoke rotated, but it is centered.


----------



## Ray Cendroski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Robert A. Hill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ray,
> 
> Tse sent me some rings last year and this thread got me motivated to try them on my 3600. I mounted them just forward of the focus yoke. I do not know if these should be in front of the convergence coil or behind so I took the easier route and mounted them behind it. It seems to work.



Hi Allen,


Thanks for the heads up. Looks like you might have saved me a lot of work. I've got some old yokes, and was hoping to salvage something from them that might fit the rings. Hope to get the rings toward the end of the week.


Ray


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmmmm....
> 
> That is very interesting! 1080p and no raster shrinking!
> 
> You must have a good 4300.
> 
> 
> I wonder how much the 4300 is different from the 4200.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know that the 4600 is substantially different than the 4200.



Rajiv,


The 33/43 and 36/4600 horizontal deflection circuits are very similar. One of the differences between them and the 4200 is the circuit that senses the horizontal deflection current. The 33/43/36/4600 circuit has compensation for frequency response that maintains raster width as frequency increases. The 4200 will allow the raster width to decrease as the freq goes up. There is a test point on the HOT bd that can be monitored that lets you adjust the width to maximum safe level. Yell if you want to mess with it.


Scott


----------



## shaz782

Hey, at least u have centring rings!

I don't think I have any on mine....when I run it at 1080p, it would be very useful to have centring rings, I have to move the raster using static shift (I think it was), almost max to the right -- to get it fairly centred.


Not sure if my 4300, is a good one...I think most of them are pretty good. If setup properly....and cooled!


Shaz



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmmmm....
> 
> That is very interesting! 1080p and no raster shrinking!
> 
> You must have a good 4300.
> 
> 
> I wonder how much the 4300 is different from the 4200.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know that the 4600 is substantially different than the 4200.


----------



## rajdude

You sure you are using the static shift to move it sideways?

On my PJ the static shift only moves the raster up or down!




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaz782* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have to move the raster using static shift (I think it was), almost max to the right -- to get it fairly centred.
> 
> 
> 
> Shaz


----------



## rajdude

So in the past few days, I adjusted the width pot and hung the PJ.










The width pot really works







(DUH!







) and now I am able to get 720p all the way to the ends of the tube. I set the width pot so that I have around 2 mm on the sides at 720p.


When I was converging the PJ yesterday night I noticed two strange things:


1. If I have the image width maxed at 720p the static keystone and pin cushion controls have no effect!

To make them work I have to reduce the width so that I have around 10mm unused space (or more) on the sides. Strange!


2. If I increase the brightness above 75 or so, the top 10% of the screen widens and starts flickering. The quick fix is to reduce the width a bit more.


Does that mean that I simply can't use the full tube width for 720p?



By the way, 1080i is fine.


----------



## mtmelvin

Hey Rajiv-


I noticed similar issues when I tried to adjust the width pot on my 4600. I got some more width out of it but it didn't really seem to be useable. If I increased the width past a certain point it would flicker and shake or something. I don't quite remember.


Incidentially, how did you go about adjusting that pot? I found that there was a board in the way that I had to remove just to get to it. Looking at Curt's diagram I guess it was the Vertical Deflection board that was in the way. Were you able to adjust the pot without removing that board?


-Mark


----------



## rajdude

Mark,

on my 4200 this HOT board is the board on the extreme right side (with PJ on the floor and you behind the PJ).


That pot is very easily accessible, heck it is even turned upwards to enable the tech to just use a screwdriver vertically. It does not need a stubby screwdriver or anything.


On my board it is very clearly labelled on big letters - WIDTH.


At this point, I do agree that that width pot is unusable. Now all that has happened is that instead of the width maxed out via the keypad I have it maxed out at the pot and the keypad is around 80 or something.


Either way I have to leave around 10 to 15 mm unused on the sides of the tubes.


I just hope Scott has a solution to this.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Rajiv-
> 
> 
> I noticed similar issues when I tried to adjust the width pot on my 4600. I got some more width out of it but it didn't really seem to be useable. If I increased the width past a certain point it would flicker and shake or something. I don't quite remember.
> 
> 
> Incidentially, how did you go about adjusting that pot? I found that there was a board in the way that I had to remove just to get to it. Looking at Curt's diagram I guess it was the Vertical Deflection board that was in the way. Were you able to adjust the pot without removing that board?
> 
> 
> -Mark


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So in the past few days, I adjusted the width pot and hung the PJ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The width pot really works
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (DUH!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) and now I am able to get 720p all the way to the ends of the tube. I set the width pot so that I have around 2 mm on the sides at 720p.
> 
> 
> When I was converging the PJ yesterday night I noticed two strange things:
> 
> 
> 1. If I have the image width maxed at 720p the static keystone and pin cushion controls have no effect!
> 
> To make them work I have to reduce the width so that I have around 10mm unused space (or more) on the sides. Strange!
> 
> There is a linear pass transistor (Q6 on heatsink) that controls width. Static key and pin essentially modulate the width. When the width is increased enough there is no longer any voltage across the pass. The voltage going to the pass can be increased by adjusting R3. I recommend first measuring the voltage on the center pin (Q6) at a specific frequency (like 1080i) and note it so you can reset to factory if you need to later.
> 
> 
> 2. If I increase the brightness above 75 or so, the top 10% of the screen widens and starts flickering. The quick fix is to reduce the width a bit more.
> 
> 
> Does that mean that I simply can't use the full tube width for 720p?
> 
> See if the above helps.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, 1080i is fine.



By increasing the voltage to the width control circuit you are reducing the maximum usable horizontal freq. Not a problem if you aren't ever going to use anything over about 75KHz. Increase this voltage just enough to get the width and keystone range that you need. Too much will make Q6 work harder than it needs to.


Scott


----------



## rajdude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recommend first measuring the voltage on the center pin (Q6) at a specific frequency (like 1080i) and note it so you can reset to factory if you need to later.



Un-Oh.Too late . I have already messed up with that pot.










Anyway I had to reduce the width pot to back to what it was (approximately). The image just was not stable!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> By increasing the voltage to the width control circuit you are reducing the maximum usable horizontal freq. Not a problem if you aren't ever going to use anything over about 75KHz. Increase this voltage just enough to get the width and keystone range that you need. Too much will make Q6 work harder than it needs to.
> 
> 
> Scott



Yup that is what I ended up doing. I think the image is slightly wider now (than what it was before I tweaked the width pot)


So I guess full width rasters are not for this PJ.

Frankly it is not too bad now, but I'd be happier with a little more !


Thanks!


----------



## rajdude

Ok here is one more thing I noticed when I hung the PJ.

The image is now softer than what it was when it was on the table. The image has gone down from a smoking hot, tack sharp one to a slightly soft image where I can't see the depth of field differences in things like House in 720p


Earlier I was easily able to figure out where the camera was focusing while watching House. For example, I could easily see whether Dr. Cameron's nose was in focus or her eyes!









Yup! It was that sharp!











The only difference I can see is I moved the PJ around a foot (or maybe more) forward. I did this to make the image fit my screen properly. Earlier I was just putting the coffee table on the rear sofa riser , hence I had to keep it there (a foot back)


My screen is around 87 inches wide


I read somewhere that these HD-10 lenses don't do screen this small very sharply. The screen has to be bigger for them to be able to project a sharp image.


Is this what I am hitting against?









Do I need HD-10L?


----------



## rajdude

Anyone?


Looks almost like this PJ may not be suitable for my screen size, unless I change the lenses ??


----------



## rajdude

Ok guys, I am posting some info about how to improve the convergence drift issues.


From what I understand this is valid for most other PJs too.


I was talking to Mark about this and here is what his comments were.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtmelvin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The mechanical set-up and the convergence settings have a large effect on how stable the image is. We both already know this, or at least we've been told this before. It's widely known that getting the mechanical adjustments nailed and minimizing all static adjustments will help increase the stability of the image. So, knowing this I can deduce that if I redo my whole set-up from scratch and the result gives me more convergence drift than before, then the mechanical set-up was probably better the first time. At least this is the assumption I've made. The more time you spend with a PJ the better you will be at understanding how it works and getting the mechanical set-up perfect.
> 
> 
> Doesn't your 4200 have centering rings? If so, have you used them to center the raster on the tube face with the static shift neutralized? If you had to use static shift to center the rasters I'd expect that to be the #1 contributing factor to convergence drift.



Yes it does have the centering rings. But here is the problem..it does not have enough range. I can only do one of these two things:


1. Center the raster horizontally, or

2. Center the raster vertically.


Cant do both.











I thought that it is the dynamic adjustment' which puts more stress on the circuits. Hence I centered the raster horizontally and used the Static adjustment to center the rasters vertically. (You can't use Static adjustment to center the rasters horizontally on the 4200; that is a dynamic function)

*Is this not the right thing to do?

What is the next best thing to do if the centering rings wont center the raster?*


----------



## tse

Centering horizontal with the rings and vertical with the static shift should be the best way to do it. Less power that way anyhow.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Thanks Scott! Good info.

That is what I am doing anyway.


By the way, what is your screen's size?

You have a 4200 now, right?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Centering horizontal with the rings and vertical with the static shift should be the best way to do it. Less power that way anyhow.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## tse

Rajiv,


My screen is 60 x 80" or 100" diagonal. All my video runs through my satellite receiver which outputs 1080i but cuts off some of the left and right sides to fit the 4 x 3 screen. I guess it's like 1440 x 1080i. The 4200 looks magnificient with HD video. Run that video through my gamma (shadow enhance) box and the blacks are black. Nice contrast ratio. The 4200 isn't a bad projector.


Scott


----------



## rajdude

Of course it is not a bad PJ !!!

















Scott, I moved my PJ a foot back. The image is sharper now. My screen is around 87" wide. The projected image is like 90 inches.


I suggest someday trying to pull back your PJ and see if the image becomes sharper.


Mine does.










Other people here have told me that the HD10 lenses do not throw a sharp picture on small screens.


Do you have HD10L lenses instead ?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Rajiv,
> 
> 
> My screen is 60 x 80" or 100" diagonal. All my video runs through my satellite receiver which outputs 1080i but cuts off some of the left and right sides to fit the 4 x 3 screen. I guess it's like 1440 x 1080i. The 4200 looks magnificient with HD video. Run that video through my gamma (shadow enhance) box and the blacks are black. Nice contrast ratio. The 4200 isn't a bad projector.
> 
> 
> Scott


----------



## rajdude

Here are some pictures of my projector as it looks now.


These are thumbnails, click on them to see a bigger, high resolution photo.


----------



## rajdude

Here are the LONG promised screenshots of my 4200










All are taken at 720p


----------



## rajdude

I have used these rubber fan mounts and found them to be pretty nice.

You just pull them through the holes and they isolate the chasis from the fan a little bit.


IMHO it reduces the noise.










They were cheap, bought here:
http://www.jab-tech.com/4-Pack-Anti-...s-pr-3269.html 


These ones are meant for fans with closed corners....but when my fans arrived I discovered that they had open corners....nevertheless they work just fine.


The ones for closed corner fans are these ones:
http://www.jab-tech.com/4-Pack-Anti-...s-pr-3270.html


----------



## madpoet

So Raj... what are you moving to?


----------



## rajdude

Well this projector is so very nice but I eventually found out that it is not really suitable for my screen (only 87" wide) It performs its best at bigger image sizes like 100" or more. At those sizes it is extremely sharp and fully converged.


The small size of my room and huge door like speakers dont allow me to have a bigger screen










Maybe with HD10L lenses (instead of the stock HD10) it may perform better on such a small screen.


But I recently found a G70....


So what are you running these days?


I heard even people like Art moved on the digitals!











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *madpoet* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So Raj... what are you moving to?


----------



## madpoet

A 9500 Ultra. Chip has all my old Ampro stuff.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well this projector is so very nice but I eventually found out that it is not really suitable for my screen (only 87" wide) It performs its best at bigger image sizes like 100" or more. At those sizes it is extremely sharp and fully converged.
> 
> 
> The small size of my room and huge door like speakers dont allow me to have a bigger screen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe with HD10L lenses (instead of the stock HD10) it may perform better on such a small screen.
> 
> 
> But I recently found a G70....
> 
> 
> So what are you running these days?
> 
> 
> I heard even people like Art moved on the digitals!



I told you a very long time ago to try a set of HD-10L's. You won't really see the straight 10's shine till you're up in the 120-140 inch range. You don't have to believe me. Just try this one time. set your green lens adjustments to dead center and slowly move the projector back until it focusses perfectly in the center. If your beam focus and astigmation are correct, you will see a ultra sharp image but will be way to big for your room. Before you waist all that time you have invested in this projector, find a set of 10L's and try it. It will be much cheaper than starting from scratch with a new projector.


Chip


----------



## edfowler

Chip, is that 120-140 diagonal or 120-140 wide?


I have a 126" st130 that might look pretty good with that pj.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *edfowler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Chip, is that 120-140 diagonal or 120-140 wide?
> 
> 
> I have a 126" st130 that might look pretty good with that pj.



I'm not 100% sure because it was 4 years ago that I did that test. But I'm pretty sure it was "WIDE". I tried it on a 120 diag 4:3 screen first then had to pull it back further. I was unable to do the test at my house as I had no room big enough to do the test. I had to use a barn wall that was sheetrocked and painted white.


Chip


----------



## rajdude

Chip

You are 100% right !


I have tested this too and found your claims are absolutely right. I am not sure about the 120" thing but my PJ was extremely sharp and fully converged at around 100" . I had no room to go bigger.


But alas, I was never able to find a set of HD10L lenses for a reasonable price.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I told you a very long time ago to try a set of HD-10L's. You won't really see the straight 10's shine till you're up in the 120-140 inch range. You don't have to believe me. Just try this one time. set your green lens adjustments to dead center and slowly move the projector back until it focusses perfectly in the center. If your beam focus and astigmation are correct, you will see a ultra sharp image but will be way to big for your room. Before you waist all that time you have invested in this projector, find a set of 10L's and try it. It will be much cheaper than starting from scratch with a new projector.
> 
> 
> Chip


----------



## madpoet

Raj, wish I'd known you wanted a set. I've got one in my garage I'd sell ya for a good price, but I suppose you've moved on now.


----------



## rajdude

Hey ! Where did my FS thread go?


----------

