# EV's Recommended & Top Rated DTV Indoor UHF/VHF Set Top Antenna Review Round-Up Guide



## EscapeVelocity

*Welcome to EV's Indoor Antenna Round-Up!


The Ultimate Internet Guide to Indoor Antennas!*











Some introductory thoughts.

*THIS GUIDE IS A WORK IN PROGRESS*


These antennas are listed in no particular order. This list of antennas are all recommended and better than average.


There is no one best indoor antenna. Environmental factors present a plethora of situations that no one antenna can be best for all of them. In fact, most times the best indoor antenna is an antenna placed outdoors or an outdoor antenna placed indoors. Some may need VHF Hi and UHF, others only UHF, after the Feb2009 shutdown of analog broadcasts. *Antennas are a strange brew, sometimes it's more of an art than a science, and while these are generally well regarded antennas for indoor use, Your Mileage May Vary.*


Remember, outdoor placement is much preferred if you can swing it. Even if you get some of these outdoor antennas that are small, flat, and aesthetic and unobtrusive enough to go inside, they will do better outside on a patio or outside a window especially if facing the broadcast tower cluster. Some even put large antennas in attics.


These are some of my personal favorites and I have personal experience with many of these antennas. Most are highly recommended antennas by others on the net and other AVSforum members in this thread; and in reviews and tests that I researched on the net


The other end of the equation is tuner ability, sensitivity and selectivity. ATSC tuners have dramatically improved over the last couple of years. If you are on the fringe of reception even using the best antenna setups, you may want to consider improving your tuner with a set top box tuner. Both SD Coupon Elligible Converter Boxes and HDTV Tuner Boxes exist. LG and Samsung make great HDTV tuner boxes. LG makes some of the best tuners, and their CECB the Zenith DTT901 currently has one of the most sensitive tuners for those looking to keep using their old CRT NTSC analog sets. You can research tuners and converter boxes in the same subforum that you are now located in AVSforum.


Please feel free to add your comments, suggestions, observations, corrections, experiences, questions, etc. They are most welcome.


I am not an expert or highly trained and experienced technician, just an amateur enthusiast. I do not portend to be anything else. There are many other people on this site that are much more knowledgable and experienced than I.


Special thanks to Seatacboy, golinux, fajitamosaic, Rick313, Rammitinski, and deltaguy, for their encoragement, enthusiasm, guidance and contributions.....and to KenH for making this thread a sticky.


I hope this will be useful to others.


Please let me know if you like it.


Best regards


EV



*Newbies start here! Read this first!*



> Quote:
> *Antennas and Digital Television*
> 
> 
> FCC Consumer Facts
> 
> 
> Federal law requires that all full-power television broadcast stations stop broadcasting in analog format and broadcast only in digital format after February 17, 2009. Broadcast stations in all U.S. markets are currently broadcasting in both analog and digital. If you have one or more analog televisions that receive free over-the-air television programming with an outdoor antenna or "rabbit ears" on the TV, you will either need a digital television (a TV with a built in digital tuner) or an analog television connected to a "digital-to-analog converter box" (which converts digital signals to analog signals for viewing on your analog set) in order to continue to watch programming from full-power broadcast stations. This Fact Sheet provides information on antennas and on what is needed for good quality reception of digital broadcasts.
> 
> *Try Using Your Existing Antenna First*
> 
> 
> First, it is important to know that if your television currently receives good quality reception on analog channels 2-51 with a broadcast antenna, it should be able to receive digital television (DTV) signals, including high definition television (HDTV) signals, with the same broadcast antenna. You do not need to purchase a "DTV antenna" or an "HDTV antenna" to receive DTV or HDTV signals. However, consumers should be aware that if they use a digital-to-analog converter box, they will still need to use an antenna to receive DTV signals.
> 
> 
> Prior to making any changes to your current antenna or antenna system, you should check to see if it will receive the digital signals being broadcast in your area. Connect your existing antenna to either a digital television or a digital-to-analog converter box connected to an analog TV. Make sure your TV is set up to receive over-the-air broadcasts (as opposed to being connected to a paid provider such as a cable or satellite TV company). It may also be helpful to perform a "channel scan," in which your TV will automatically check to see which stations it can receive. In many cases, this is all you will need to do to watch digital television broadcasts.
> 
> *For Help With Reception Problems*
> 
> 
> If you experience reception problems, the following information and tips may help to improve your reception for digital broadcasts.
> 
> 
> During the transition to digital TV, many stations are temporarily operating at reduced power levels. If you are not receiving certain digital TV stations, this does not necessarily mean there is a problem with your antenna or receiver. Check with the TV station to find out whether they are planning changes that will improve reception.
> 
> 
> When an analog TV signal is weak or receives interference, static, snow, and distortion will often appear on the screen, but you can watch the picture through the noise. Digital broadcasting will provide a clear picture even with a weak signal and in the presence of interference. However, if the digital signal falls below a certain minimum strength, the picture can suddenly disappear. This “cliff effect” means that if you typically watch analog TV stations that have a lot of static and distortion, you may have to adjust or upgrade your antenna system to get a reliably good signal for digital broadcasts.
> 
> 
> TV reception can be affected by factors such as terrain, trees, buildings, the weather (rain, wind, humidity), and damaged/deteriorated equipment. Often digital reception can be improved just by changing the location of your current antenna. Moving it away from other objects and structures, or placing it higher can often improve reception.
> 
> 
> Many antennas need to be oriented or aimed to get the best signal from the desired station. For indoor antennas, you may need to do this manually by trial and error. For outdoor antennas, a rotor that re-orients the antenna can improve performance, particularly when trying to receive stations that transmit from different locations.
> 
> 
> Television stations broadcasting in digital use both the VHF band (channels 2-13) and UHF band (channels 14-51). Many indoor antennas use “rabbit ears” for the VHF band and a “loop” or “bow-tie” antenna for the UHF band. Make sure you are using an antenna that covers both the VHF and UHF bands and have connected it properly.
> 
> 
> Simple indoor antennas, such as rabbit ears, provide minimal performance that may or may not be suitable for your location. If you are unable to obtain satisfactory reception with your current indoor antenna, you may wish to obtain an indoor antenna that includes features for better reception of UHF signals and/or an amplifier to boost the received signal (often referred to as an active indoor antenna).
> 
> 
> Generally, an outdoor antenna will get better reception than an indoor antenna. If you already have an outdoor antenna and are getting good quality reception from VHF and UHF channels, your antenna should work fine for digital television.
> 
> 
> The performance of outdoor antennas can degrade over time due to exposure to the weather. If you are having problems, check for loose or corroded wiring, broken antenna elements and that the antenna is pointed in the right direction.
> 
> 
> Try to keep the length of wire between your antenna and digital receiver as short as possible for best reception.
> 
> 
> You can use a single antenna to provide digital broadcasts to multiple TVs in your home. Remember, however, that each analog TV connected to your antenna will need its own digital-to-analog converter box to view digital broadcast programming.
> 
> 
> "Splitters" that are used to connect a single antenna to multiple receivers reduce the amount of signal available to each receiver. If you are having problems, check to see whether reception is improved without the splitter. In some cases an "active" splitter that includes an amplifier can solve the problem.
> 
> 
> If you are near a station's broadcast tower, reception of that station, as well as other stations, can be impeded by signal "overload". Consider using an "attenuator" or removing amplifiers to improve your reception.
> 
> *If you decide to replace or upgrade your outdoor antenna, websites such as www.antennaweb.org and http://tvfool.com/ provide information on the locations of broadcast towers and the types of outdoor antennas appropriate for the stations you wish to receive.* If you need assistance with upgrading your antenna system, check with a local antenna retailer or antenna installer.
> 
> http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messa...79/468153.html



Sage advice from KenH.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/14136288
> 
> 
> In general:
> 
> Outdoors is better than indoors.
> 
> Bigger is better than smaller.
> 
> Directional is better than omnidirectional.
> 
> Mounting higher is better than mounting lower.




*Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide....YMMV*


These are rough guestimations, based on my personal observations. They have not been instrument tested yet. Just because something is at the top of the list, does not necessarily mean that it is the best antenna for you and your particular situation. You may be best served by an unamplified model or an omnidirectional model, and directional and amplified units tend to do better on net gain and distance measures. This list is also most certainly distorted by varying atmospheric conditions. I will address that by instrument testing these all on one day, so as to minimize human and atmospheric error.


Performance rankings so far.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide....YMMV

*THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS and is changed and updated regularly as new and better testing data becomes available*

*Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with CM 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RS 1892 UFO

Antennas Direct ClearStream2

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000

Petra SuperPower 32db (Cornet 645A)

Terk HDTVa

RS Double Bow Tie

Philips MANT940

RS DA-5200

GE Futura Outdoor

Philips MANT950

RCA ANT806

Classic Single Bow Tie

Philips Silver Sensor

Godar Model 1

Terk TV-3

Philips MANT510

RS 1634

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

GE Futura Indoor

Terk TV-55

RS 1874 Budget

Picture Frame Antenna

RCA ANT1500

Channel Master 4030

Samsung Axession TV DA1000/GE Contempo

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and others)

RS 1868 Delta

Terk TV-2

RCA ANT1020

Terk TV-5

RS 1870

Jensen TV 931

Terk TV-1 without Loop

RS FM Dipole*




EV's Favorites....so far


RS 1880

RS 1892 UFO

RS DA-5200

RS Double Bow Tie

RS Single Classic BowTie

RS 1874 Budget

Petra SuperPower 32db(Cornet 645A)

Godar Model 1

Antennas Direc DB2

Antennas Direct ClearStream2

Channel Master 4149

Winegard SS-3000

Terk HDTVa

Terk TV-3

Terk TV-2

Philips Silver Sensor

Philips MANT510

Philips MANT940

Philips MANT950

RCA ANT806

RCA ANT108 (ANT110)




Here is a chart designed by wwong incorporating the data that I collected in regards to antenna performance using a Zenith 901 Converter Box. Note the first 2 entries were tested on a seperate day, I was testing the Clearstream2 and used the DB2 as a control to help integrate the information into the above lists.












.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Table of Contents


1. Introduction

. a. Tips for Reception

. b. Sage Advice

. c. Performance Rankings

. d. EV's Favorites


2. Table of Contents


3. Rabbit Ears and Loop Style Antennas

. a. Basic Rabbit Ears & Loop

. b. Radio Shack 15-1868

. c. Terk TV-1

. d. Channel Master 4000

. e. Philips MANT510

. f. Terk TV-3

. g. Petra SuperPower 32db

. h. Cornet 645A

. i. Radio Shack 15-1874

. j. Quantum FX ANT-102

. k. Lava A-463

. l. Philips SVD2750


4. Bow Tie Antennas

. a. Classic Single Bow Tie

. b. Channel Master 4149

. c. Terrestrial Digital DB2

. d. AntennasDirect Lacrosse

. e. Channel Master 4220

. f. Channel Master 4221

. g. Homemade Quad Bow Tie


5. Silver Sensor Style Antennas

. a. Antiference Silver Sensor

. b. Terk HDTVi and HDTVa

. c. Philips PHDTV3 Amplified Silver Sensor

. d. Channel Master 4040

. e. Godar Model 1

. f. Terk HDTVo

. g. Cornet ET-8DA


6. Miscellaneous Design Antennas

. a. Winegard SharpShooter SS-3000

. b. Terk HDTVlp

. c. Radio Shack 15-1892 "The UFO"

. d. Godar HD-3

. e. ClearStream C1C

. f. ClearStream2

. g. RCA ANT751

. h. Digitenna City

. i. Digitenna Metro

. j. Digitenna Suburban


7. Rectangular UHF Array Antennas

. a. Meritline "Artec" "Kingbox" Antenna

. b. AntennasDirect PF7 Picture Frame Antenna

. c. RCA ANT1500

. d. Radio Shack DA-5200

. e. Philips MANT940

. f. GE Futura Outdoor

. g. Monoprice Antenna

. h. HD 650 Antenna

. i. Winegard SquareShooter's

. j. Terk HDTVs


8. Stick Style Antennas

. a. Philips MANT950

. b. RCA ANT806

. c. Winegard Sensar III's


9. RV Style Antennas

. a. Radio Shack 15-1634

. b. Winegard MetroStar MS-2000


10. Miscellaneous Antennas under consideration for the list


11. The Dog House - Not Recommended


12. Indoor antenna Tests, Shootouts, and Review Websites

. a. HDTV Primer antenna gain chart and link

. b. HDTV Primer - Antenna Basics

. c. Digital Dude Video: Antenna Myths Dispelled!

. d. Consumer Reports TV FAQ

. e. HDTVexpert shootouts

. f. Indoor Antenna Test Results Reported at the NAB Broadcast Engineering Conference

. g. Kyes Antenna Site

. h. RabbitEars.info

. i. Other good sites for antenna reviews

. j. AVSForum links

. k. DIY Quickie Antenna Reflector


13. Oldies but Goldies...Discontinued but not Forgotten

. a. Radio Shack Double Bow Tie

. b. Radio Shack 15-1862

. c. Radio Shack 15-1880

. d. Samsung TV5.4 SAX

. e. Recoton Color Antenna


14. Working Ideas and My Antenna List

a. Ideas

b. My Antenna List


.*


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Rabbit Ear and Loop Style Antennas*



*Basic Non-Amplified Rabbit Ears & Loop*











Believe it or not, these are pretty darn good antennas. The Rabbit Ears give you good VHF performance, and the basic loop gives you good UHF. These outperform many fancy looking and more expensive Amplified RE & Loops. If you have a pair of these around, you should pull them out and give them a try. They may be all that you need. Indeed they may be the best solution.


Note that those close to the towers can overload their tuners with already strong signals that are then amplified. This wont hurt your tuner/TV(but you shouldnt keep abusing it), but they just wont work.


Some of the best currently available basic RE & Loops from mine and others experience and testing are the RCA ANT110 and the RCA ANT108. These are virtual clones and Ive seen these same units with other brand names on them as well. These are easy to find at major B&M retailers nationwide. The RCA ANT108 is pictured.


They have strong thick 5" loops and 39" telescoping rabbit ear dipoles that are sturdy and simple to adjust. On the downside, they have thinly shielded coax that is not detachable. However, they do perform and are dirt cheap.



*Radio Shack 15-1868 Delta*











The RS Delta has pleasing aesthetics and good user reviews. Plus fine tuning adjustment knob. Good performer for non amplified RE & Loops. This unit has detachable coax and telescoping rabbit ear dipoles that are adjustable in altitude and azimuth. If you dont like the utilitarian looks of the basic models above, this one works well also. Nice little antenna. VHF and UHF.



> Quote:
> Delta design for a high-tech look.
> 
> Use the UHF/VHF/FM indoor antenna with 12-position fine-tuning control to dial in the clearest picture for each station. The unique delta design of this set-top antenna makes it an attractive addition to your viewing room. It has gold plating and 75-ohm VHF/UHF output. The internal loop UHF loop is 39" with black chrome and VHF dipoles. This antenna comes with a 6-ft 75-ohm coaxial cable with gold-plated connectors.
> 
> 
> 12-position fine-tuning control--no need to move base for best picture
> 
> Gold-plated "F" connector output for better signal and picture
> 
> Unique delta design makes it an attractive addition to your TV room


*Terk TV-1 Rabbit Ears*











Here is Terk's version of the non-amplified basic Rabbit Ears. It has good build quality and nice modern aesthetics, plus 44" VHF dipoles. It comes with a sepereate UHF loop which is not attachable as an integrated UHF/VHF antenna solution. Its made to attach to the back of an old TV and thusly isnt very useful. But it can be used in conjunction with a superior UHF only antenna as many are in this list. If you need to add a VHF Hi antenna after the Feb09 cutoff of analog signals, this is a good choice. In order to join 2 seperate UHF and VHF antennas, you need a VHF/UHF Combiner. Its worth the effort to use a Combiner and not just a basic Splitter for less signal loss and better signal filtering and handling. Channel Master and Winegard offer combiners but you can get the cheapies and they are still better than the basic splitter.



> Quote:
> VHF: channels 2-13; UHF: channels 14-69
> 
> heavy-gauge 40" retractable VHF dipoles with safety tips
> 
> UHF loop antenna
> 
> 300-ohm to 75-ohm matching transformer
> 
> height of base: 3-3/8"; height with dipoles: 12-1/2" - 42-1/2"D



An AVSforum member explains this setup.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *golinux* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...... I am in a heavily wooded area (and in a hollow to boot) about 26 miles from the towers. My location has been described as a "worst case scenario".
> 
> 
> I have been using a DB2 with a 22db amp in an indoor window for several years. Since there is a VHF station, I have rabbit ears and the DB2 hooked to a signal combiner before going to the amp. This setup picks up all the local stations in analog and also with the Zenith DTT900 converter box. On two of the weaker stations there is some minor dropout if the winds are heavy but nothing I can't live with.



*Channel Master 4000 Rabbit Ears*












> Quote:
> Set top antenna
> 
> • 300 Ohm twin lead output
> 
> • Dual 40 in., 5-section retractable chrome dipoles with 90° tilt for fine tune adjustments



*Philips MANT510*











One of the best of the ubiquitous Amplified Rabbit Ears and Loop style set top antennas, which arent the best performers in general as distance antennas, but may suit your needs best. It doesnt have a loop per se, but a "UHF flat panel array." It is also amplified, 50db overkill(I'm skeptical of that figure), but adjustable and has nice 44" dipoles for VHF reception. Strangely it includes a 75ohm to 300ohm transformer/balun along with a nice guide booklet. Has a detachable coax interface, plus an Aux input with a switch so that you can choose between the antenna or another source. Doesnt have an FM trap, so can be used as an FM antenna as well. One thing to note, is that this is a directional antenna, loops are omni-directional or more precisely bi-directional....and is adjustable in altitude and azimuth. The build quality is good on these, the base is weighty and stable and it sits off of the surface. VHF and UHF.


If you are close to the towers, this highly amplified version may not be for you, although the amp is adjustable like most other amped RE & Loop combo antennas, you may want to try an unamplified version first. Overamplifying strong signals can overload the tuner and you might recieve no stations at all. Overloading will not damage the tuner though, it just wont work. When reading user reviews, often the ultra low scores are by people that get no signals because of this amplifier gain overloading business, unbeknownst to them.


In depth comparative reviews of this and other antennas can be found on the Big River MANT510 page.




> Quote:
> 50 dB amplification boosts weak signals, expanding your reception range and allowing you to receive more signals over a greater distance.
> 
> 
> The highly efficient UHF flat panel array offers improved reception over conventional loop antennas. Due to the flat design, the antenna concentrates the signal for better reception.
> 
> 
> 44" dipoles adjust 360° with a 180° tilt to deliver the best possible reception.
> 
> 
> Together with the adjustable amplification, low noise amplification ensures you of a great reception range and improves and maintains the quality of your signal.
> 
> 
> Easy touch control with LED signal increases or decreases amplification strength. Also confirms amplification strength at a glance.
> 
> 
> The weighted base stabilizes the antenna's position so you enjoy more positioning choices.
> 
> A/B switch - Built-in selector switch makes it easy to change between viewing sources.
> 
> 
> Simple sleek, elegant design lines compliment today's new TVs.
> 
> http://www.consumer.philips.com/cons...nna+SDV2510-27





Terk TV-3 Amplified Rabbit Ears and Loop[/b]













*Petra SuperPower 32db (Cornet 645A, others)*











I really like these antennas. They are excellent performers and are the best of the amplified Rabbit Ears & Loop style antennas. They can be found at major online retailers for dirt cheap as well. The large 9" loop (which is also particularly thick) is the key. It shifts the meat of the gain curve down into the newly re-allocated UHF TV spectrum of Ch. 14 to 51....for superior performance over all others with smaller loops. The amplifier helps as well, if you need the extra umph. Also has Rabbit Ear VHF dipoles for adequate VHF reception. Amplified....UHF and VHF.











*Radio Shack 15-1874 Budget RE&Loop*











This is my new favorite unamplified RE&Loop. Its main claim to fame is that it has a larger 7.5" diameter loop which pushes the gain curve down into the heart of the newly squashed UHF Digital TV spectrum (really it could be even larger like the 9" loop on the Petra SuperPower above that is a very good performer). The RCA ANT108 and others like it have a 6.5" diameter loop. UHF and VHF. Highly Recommended.



*Quantum FX ANT-102 Indoor*











The Quantum FX ANT-102 performs on par with the legendary RS-1880. As you can see they are similarly sized and designed with amplified double loops plus telescoping articulating Rabbit Ear VHF dipoles. The Q FX ANT-102 includes a remotely controlled light duty rotor that works well....can be useful for people with multiple direction transmissions....however even if you dont need this feature, this antenna is one of the elite indoor antennas in current distributino (along with the Silver Sensor, and Terk HDTVa, RS 1892 UFO). Snap one of these up, youll be glad you did. Recommended. UHF and VHF.



*Lava A-463*











The Lava A-463 is also a good antenna similar to the lengendary RS 1880, with amplified double loops and telescoping articulating Rabbit Ear VHF dipoles. However it is smaller, as can be seen in the pic. The Lava A-463 is nearly as good as the RS 1880, beating everthing else in this category except the Q FX ANT-102. I think the Lava gives up something on the lower channels of the UHF band due to its diminuative size to both the ANT-102 and the RS 1880. However, this is not a bad antenna, and is better than any Amplified RE&Single Loop style antenna which is so common. Its just the Q FX ANT-102 is slightly more desirable. UHF and VHF.



*Philips SDV2750*


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Bow Tie Antennas*


*Radio Shack Classic Single Bow Tie Antenna*











Believe it or not, this is a pretty darn good UHF antenna! It will beat most RE & Loops on UHF. And best of all, its dirt cheap. Can be found at Radio Shack and there version has plastic clips for securing the antenna to a Rabbit Ear dipole or wire. 13" long x 3 1/4" wide, bi-directional(omni). Give this one a try, for sure. You will need a 300ohm to 75ohm balun. UHF only.


*Digitenna Indoor* 



*Channel Master 4149 Double Bow Tie*











This is a clone of the famous RS Double Bow Tie. It is an excellent performer. It is approximately 12" square x 3" deep. Its screen gives it nice directional forward gain on UHF. No VHF performance to speak of. The bows are fairly easy to bend so be careful. It has a twin lead to 300ohm spade cable...so you will need a matching transformer balun. However, you may be able to improve the performance of this one by removing the twinlead and adding the matching transformer balun directly to the feedlines. Another home improvement technique is extending the bowties with aluminum foil. UHF only.



*Terrestrial Digital DB2 - Double Bow Tie (AntennasDirect, Eagle Aspen, and others)*











Superior antenna for use indoors. Technically not an indoor antenna. This one is small enough and not too aesthetically unpleasing to do indoor duties in tough situations. Can also be mounted on small patios or outside windows for apartment dwellers. Not amplified, but an external can be added if necessary. Excellent performance among indoor antennas(better outside of course). Ive currently got this one on the roof with a Channel Master Titan 7777 amplifier and its holding its own against an xg91 that it temporarily replaced(yes I have serious tree and placement problems) 45 miles South of the towers. UHF only.



> Quote:
> New for 2008! New Low-loss Design.
> 
> 
> Although the DB2 was originally designed for outdoor use, it has quickly become one of our most popular indoor antennas due to its small size and extraordinary gain. The bowtie design provides strong gain across the entire UHF spectrum and it functions incredibly well in areas where a low profile antenna is required. In fact the DB2 was recently named "The highest performing indoor antenna" from HDTV Primer.
> 
> 
> The Eagle Aspen version is virtually identical to the DB2 and can be found for a significantly lower price at major retailers online.
> 
> 
> Some mounting ideas for the DB2...
> 
> 
> Microphone Stand
> 
> Torchiere Lamp
> 
> Freestanding Coat & Hat Rack
> 
> Bath Towel Rack Mounted Sideways on the Wall
> 
> Hooks from the Ceiling Joist
> 
> Suction Cup Hooks on the Window
> 
> Hooks from the Top Window Frame
> 
> Extendable Shower Curtain Rod Mounted Vertically
> 
> LCD Computer Monitor Swing Arm Wall Mount
> 
> Paper Towel Holder - the kind with the wood dowel that stand vertical from a wood base.
> 
> 
> Range: 1-30 Miles
> 
> Multi-directional (pulls in signals from many directions)
> 
> Achieves a high gain of up to 11.4 dB
> 
> Ideal for UHF channels 14-69
> 
> Great for indoor, outdoor, and attic use
> 
> Dimensions 12" H x 19" W x 4" Deep
> 
> Weight: 2.8 pounds
> 
> Lifetime Warranty
> 
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html


*



Antennas Direct Lacrosse*











This is basically a DB2 with an "attractive" plastic housing which can be useful in Homeowners Association situations. Expect similar if slightly diminished from the plain DB2 performance. It comes in 2 flavors, amplified or unamplified. UHF Only.



> Quote:
> Includes all you need: Lacrosse Antenna, 17dBamplifier, J Mount Bracket, Mounting Hardware, Quad-Shield Coax Cables.
> 
> Receive uncompressed, over-the-air HDTV signals from local affiliates.
> 
> Better HDTV picture than cable or satellite.
> 
> Range: Up to 40 Miles
> 
> Build to blend intot he design of your home.


*


Channel Master CM 4220 - Double Bow Tie*











Similar to the DB2, expect similar excellent performance. The 4220 is probably a bit better than the DB2 because of its larger bows. Note however that the CM 4220 is quite a bit larger than the DB2, including depth, plus its a bit heavier than the DB2......making the DB2 perhaps more suited as an indoor antenna, since performance is similar. I replaced the DB2 on the roof(which replaced the xg91) and it performed admirably, perhaps a tad better than the DB2 on signal strength. The build quality of this unit is commendable. Galvanized steel whiskers, feedlines, and sub-mast, galvanized steel heavy duty powder coated reflector, and yellow chromated steel mounting hardware, plus a bit of plastic. UHF only.


Update: These USA made antennas have been discontinued and replaced with Chinese made HD series antennas (4220HD, 4221HD, etc). I recommend the Antennas Direct (Terrestrial Digital) DB series antennas (DB2, DB4, etc) over these new Chinese made Channel Master double bowties. Although they are made in China as well, the build quality is better on the DB series. The DB2 has nice thick aluminum whiskers and a superior quality reflector.



> Quote:
> • Antenna measures 20 W x 17 H x 5 D
> 
> • Turning radius of 10 in.
> 
> • Free Balun Kit included with antenna
> 
> • Versatile mounting methods - Easily mounts to a univerasl antenna mast or to a standard satellite mount
> 
> • Powder coated components insures the antenna holds up under even the most extreme conditions
> 
> • Constructed of high quality galvanized steel
> 
> • Almost transparent design that wont obstruct your view
> 
> • Almost transparent design that wont obstruct your view
> 
> • Mount NOT included
> 
> • Powerful, but small - no bigger than most home satellite dishes














*Channel Master CM 4221 - Quad Bow Tie
*










If you are really desperate, then you may consider the Channel Master 4221, quad bow tie as an indoor antenna. Prime candidate for an attic or closet install. Its the smallest, most compact with the least number of sharp protrusions of the commercially available quads. UHF only, but does give you some VHF Hi gain.


Tip: You can leave this one(or the CM 4220) in the box and use it like that. The cardboard seems to have little effect. This may be a better way to "mount" the antenna in a closet or elsewhere inside as you wont have protrusions that may snag items and provides protection for the antenna so that it wont be damaged accidentally. (Hat tip to unknown AVSforum poster)


Update: These USA made antennas have been discontinued and replaced with Chinese made HD series antennas (4220HD, 4221HD, etc). I recommend the Antennas Direct (Terrestrial Digital) DB series antennas (DB2, DB4, etc) over these new Chinese made Channel Master double bowties. Although they are made in China as well, the build quality is better on the DB series. The DB2 has nice thick aluminum whiskers and a superior quality reflector.



> Quote:
> receives digital & analog UHF TV signals
> 
> range is 45 miles
> 
> reception "beam width" is 45 degrees
> 
> 4-bay bowtie dipole design
> 
> 20"W x 5-1/4"D x 36-1/4"H


*Coat Hanger Quad Bow Tie*











Or you can try to build your own. These are inexpensive to make from common materials, but are good to excellent performers depending on the skill of the maker. You can build one without a reflector to save space and mount them in out of the way places. Even add an amplifier to boost performance so you can shove it in the closet or mount it in an attic. UHF only.


The pic is of My First Attempt at a Homemade Coat Hanger Quad Bow Tie, Youtube Video Specifications. I knocked one of the whiskers out of position. It can be adjusted simply.

Youtube Video: Coat Hanger HDTV Antenna! 


There is also an active topic discussing improvements and techniques here on the AVSforum.

How to build a UHF antenna... 


Here is a video produced by AVSforum member jwwm_2, of the improved design of the 4 bay advanced and tested by AVSforum mclapp on the How to build a UHF antenna thread. This desian uses wider spacing and longer elements to increase gain in the heart of the newly shrunken TV UHF band spectrum, and also has gain on UHF High. Much improved version of the 4 bay bowtie. There is a great comparison between this design and the famous Youtube Coathanger Antenna right at the beginning.

A Better HDTV Antenna 





.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Silver Sensor Log Periodic Style Antennas*


These style antennas are especially good at multipath or interfence rejection, because of there tight beamwidths aka very directional nature. Airport/airplane noise, multipath in big cities from buildings, etc.


*Antiference Silver Sensor - Philips, Zenith, others
*










The famous original Silver Sensor. Lots of different brandings on this one. Looks more like a sculpture, but it works well, very directional though, not best if you are in the middle of several towers in different directions. May have to fuss with it too much for your liking. Also, it's a bit tippy. Still offers excellent performance for a small indoor antenna. Non Amped.....but you can add an amplifier and make this one even better. UHF only.


Addendum: The build quality of these is often criticized. Probably partially due to its propensity to tip over(instability), but also fit and finish.



*Terk HDTVi and HDTVa*











Terk here offers 2 good antennas which are Silver Sensor style log periodic antennas, but not exact clones. They are very good performers and highly directional. These offer the advantage of Rabbit Ears which are attached at the base of the unit, thus offering VHF reception. The rabbit ears have a limited range of motion because of the way they are attached to the base. The HDTVi version is un-amped, the HDTVa version contains an internal amplifier. The amped version give you more gain, and I think an unamped Rabbit Ears and Loop, would be more desireable in cases where the unamped version would more likely best fit. However the directionality of its UHF design can be useful where multi-path is a problem and amplification would overload the tuner, like big cities with lots of high rises. These units are a little tippy like the Silver Sensor but a little more stable as they have more mass in the base, but the base is not as wide and the rabbit ears complicates matters further. Like the original Silver Sensor, you may have to fuss with it too much for your liking, or it could be the perfect antenna to deal with multipath. VHF and UHF.



*Philips PHDTV3 Amplified Silver Sensor
*











*Channel Master 4040*











Here is a Brand New version of the log periodic indoor antenna from Channel Master. It looks very promising. Highlights include long 110" cable and wall mounting option. UHF only.


Ill try to find out more ASAP.



> Quote:
> The CM-4040 indoor UHF/HDTV antenna offers excellent indoor UHF/HDTV reception.
> 
> The antenna design allows for increased forward gain while minimizing interference
> 
> from the side and rear. The antenna can be wall mounted or placed on top of the TV set
> 
> or entertainment center.



*Godar Model 1*











The Made in USA, Godar Model 1 is a nice log periodic UHF antenna with VHF dipoles. Its not amplified. It performed well and also is good for FM reception. The log periodic elements are encased in a low profile black plastic housing which is very sturdy and stable. The VHF telescoping Rabbit Ears can be extended if you need VHF reception or tucked away behind the low profile body for UHF only. Really nice setup. UHF and VHF and FM.


Godar offers several antennas for VHF, UHF, and FM. They are especially known for their FM antennas. Check out their website here at godarusa.com.


*Terk HDTVo*












> Quote:
> Dimensions:
> 
> width 39"
> 
> length (front to back housing bracket) 22"
> 
> depth (top to bottom of f-connector) 3.25"
> 
> Length of mast with bracket: 12”
> 
> 
> Frequency range: VHF 40 MHz – 230 Mhz (channels 2-13)
> 
> UHF 470 MHz-862 Mhz (channels 14-69)
> 
> Gain: UHF 11 dB typical
> 
> VHF 12 dB typical
> 
> Insertion loss: -1 +/1 1dB max.
> 
> 
> Weight: 7 lbs
> 
> 
> Included in packaging:
> 
> - HDTVo antenna
> 
> - Power injector
> 
> - Mini-mast mounting bracket
> 
> - All associated mounting screws



*Cornet ET-8DA* 












.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Miscellaneous Design Antennas
*

*Winegard Sharp Shooter SS-3000 and Terk HDTVlp(SS-3000 clone)*












The Winegard Sharp Shooter 3000 is an excellent performing antenna. I really like this one with its pleasing wing style. Its fairly wide and is great with multipath thanks to it reflector screen which also helps with directionality and gain. This "scatter plane" reflector is removable for those who are better served by an omni directional antenna. This antenna seems to be pretty forgiving with placement as well. It has an integrated amplifier and and incorporates and FM Trap. VHF Hi performance is OK, VHF Lo is not so good. UHF is where it shines. One thing to note, it has a thin unshielded cable that is detachable which connects to the base of the unit. However, a thicker shielded cable does not fit in the notch in the plastic base which this cable exits...this probably however can be modified pretty easily. It works well at my location 45 miles out from the towers. VHF and UHF.





> Quote:
> Winegard SS 3000 3000 Indoor UHF/VHF Antenna (SS-3000)
> 
> 
> 
> Winegards newest and best all-band indoor directional / bidirectional DTV/HDTV Antenna platform. Perfect for close range off-air reception in urban areas.
> 
> 
> 
> Winegard "Scatter-Plane" to reject digital multi-path
> 
> 90 Day Warranty
> 
> Response throughout VHF/UHF bandpass
> 
> Receives and resonates indoor analog and outstanding DTV/HDTV signals up to 20 miles from the transmit source
> 
> Reception for apartment/condominium dweller to receive digital broadcasts where line-of-sight to the transmit source is blocked
> 
> Only 26.75 inches wide
> 
> Weighs only 1.5 pounds
> 
> Specifically designed to capture reflected off-air HDTV and DTV broadcasts signals
> 
> Integrates an ultra-low noise amplifier design with an ultra-low noise figure for a DTV/HDTV picture
> 
> Great antenna in urban areas where HDTV and DTV signals bounce off buildings
> 
> 
> SS-3000
> 
> 
> Mechanical
> 
> 
> Width ............................................................ ........ 26.75"
> 
> Height ............................................................ ............. 5"
> 
> Depth ............................................................ ......... 4.25"
> 
> Antenna weight .................................................. 1.5 lbs.
> 
> Will ship UPS
> 
> 
> Electrical
> 
> 
> Bandpass .................................................. 54-806 MHz
> 
> Power requirements ......................... [email protected] VDC
> 
> Amplifier gain ........................... 7-10 dB ave. VHF/UHF
> 
> Amplifier noise figure ........... 1.0 dB or lower VHF/UHF
> 
> 
> VHF Low Band (54-88 Mhz, CH 2-6)
> 
> Nonamplified element gain ................................ -15 dB
> 
> Ave. half power beam width ..................................... 87°
> 
> Ave. front to back ratio ......................................... 1.2 dB
> 
> VSWR........................................................ ......... 2.0- 2.1
> 
> 
> VHF High Band (174-216 Mhz, CH 7-13)
> 
> Nonamplified element gain .................................. -5 dB
> 
> Ave. half power beam width ..................................... 70°
> 
> Ave. front to back ratio ....................................... 11.3 dB
> 
> VSWR........................................................ ......... 2.2- 2.3
> 
> 
> UHF (470-806 Mhz, CH 14-69)
> 
> Nonamplified element gain ................................... 0 dB
> 
> Ave. half power beam width ..................................... 36°
> 
> Ave. front to back ratio ......................................... 7.5 dB
> 
> VSWR........................................................ ......... 2.2- 3.3
> 
> http://www.winegarddirect.com/ss-300...00_pattern.gif














*Radio Shack 15-1892 with Remote - "The UFO"

**aka "The Magic Mushroom," "The Starship Enterprise," and "The Frisbee"*











This one, affectionately known as "The UFO," is a very interesting antenna. It gets great user reviews, and its performance is excellent. I really like this antenna. It is like a Smart Antenna but without the tuner interface, instead you operate it by remote control. Its automated, you can set it to move within its UFO disc, to adjust the antenna for individual stations that may be located in differing directions and also adjust the gain for each channel. Can be really handy for those whose broadcast towers are not all in one direction. Comes with a remote to tune the antenna from the chair, to preset channel positions. This one can be extremely useful for those who are in reach of more than one broadcast market. Has Rabbit Ears for VHF which are limited in range of motion by the UHF disc. This one has an FM Trap. Amplified. VHF and UHF.


Here is a link to my in depth review of the RS 1892 UFO's Features and Use on page 10 of this thread.



> Quote:
> Tune in to a better picture.
> 
> This indoor antenna allows you to enjoy the best possible HDTV programming. Experience sharper HDTV picture quality with three amplifier gains (19dB, 15dB and 10dB), 330° rotation and 12 reception directions. The LCD displays the memory numbers, gain settings and direction for easy reference. The remote control works indoors or outdoors, up to 50 feet away.
> 
> 
> 3 amplifier gain levels
> 
> 330° rotation and 12 reception directions
> 
> Remote control range of 50 feet, indoors and outdoors
> 
> 
> What's in the box
> 
> Amplified antenna
> 
> Power adapter 12V 350mA
> 
> 6 feet 75ohm coaxial cable with Gold-plated connector
> 
> CR2032 Li-ion battery x 1 (for RF remote control unit)
> 
> Remote
> 
> User's Guide




*Godar HD-3*











The Godar HD-3 is designed for Attic Install. An unsual design, it performed well, but was a bit finicky about placement. Check out the details at the Godar website here .



*Antennas Direct ClearStream 1*













> Quote:
> The first in a series of compact, highly efficient antennas designed and optimized for 2009 frequencies associated with the DTV transition.
> 
> 
> High gain, and compact design offer excellent gain and impedance matching across the whole post 2009 DTV spectrum. The Clearstream is vastly superior to the existing compact antennas for receiving DTV signals. Good directivity at all frequencies with a peak gain of 8 dB. Provides substantial performance gains over commonly available compact antennas.
> 
> Range: Up to 30 Miles
> 
> Gain of 8 dBi
> 
> Consistent gain through the entire DTV channel spectrum
> 
> Totally new engineering for post-2009 DTV frequencies
> 
> Great for indoor, outdoor and attic use
> 
> Dimensions 10”h x 10” w x 4.5” deep



*Antennas Direct ClearStream2 (Terrestrial Digital)*











*RCA ANT751 (aka EZ HD)
*












*Digitenna City* 



*Digitenna Metro* 












*Digitenna Suburban* 












.




.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*UHF Flat Panel Array Style Antennas
*


*Meritline "Artec" "Kingbox" Antenna*











This is a fantastic little UHF flat panel antenna. Expect similar performance to the Classic Single Bowtie above, pretty darn good on UHF. The panel is 8" long by 4" high. It comes with an adjustable mount which you can angle at 90 degrees and use the suction cup on the bottom to mount to a window. The antenna is sandwiched between 2 strong pieces of plastic film which is somewhat flexible but bounces back into shape. This antenna along with the Classic Double Bowtie and RCA ANT108 are great backpackable portable antenna solutions. UHF only. (might pick up some strong VHF in a pinch)


*Antennas Direct PF7 - The Picture Frame Antenna*











Ive seen this one ranked high for performance among set top indoor antennas in a UK test and elsewhere. This one performs better than most Rabbit Ear and Loops on UHF. Wife friendly. UHF only.


Here is one netizen's review of The Picture Frame Antenna.



> Quote:
> I bought this with very low expectations for our 19" kitchen LCD television. We had been using a Terk HDTVa but that was too large and just did not work that well anywhere in our kitchen. (It works great now that we moved it in our home theater room) Enter the lowly HDtv Picture Frame Antenna. I put it on the wall facing the direction of my towers and presto, all the local stations tuned right in! It really works amazingly well.
> 
> 
> One other important thing to note is that the included wooden frame is only average in quality. However, the antenna part of the frame (the back part) is completely removable and fits nicely into most 8x10 frames. So basically, you can customize it very easily to fit any room if the plain brown frame included does not match your style. I have mine in a wide silver and blue frame and it looks great.





> Quote:
> Range: Up to 15 Miles
> 
> Gain of approximately 6.5 dB
> 
> Ideal for UHF channels 14-69
> 
> Cherry wood frame with glass photo cover
> 
> Landscape orientation with wall hanger or table mount
> 
> Includes 6ft 75 ohm RG6 coaxial cable fitted with F-Type connector
> 
> Dimensions: 9" high x 11" wide x 1" deep to hold an 8" x 10" photo.



*RCA ANT1500 Digital Flat Panel Antenna*












The RCA ANT1500 is better than most unamplified Rabbit Ear and Loops. It is a 10" square uhf panel that is 1/2" thick and is bi-directional in its gain pattern. Very sleek aesthetics. It has a permanently attached 6ft coax cable and a stainless steel bar that slides into the back to form a stand. There are also screw head mounts moulded and cut into the backside plastic as well as molded bumps to keep the unit off of the wall a bit when wall mounting. UHF and VHF.





> Quote:
> New, patent pending technology
> 
> Omni directional design allows for multiple placement options
> 
> Optimized for HDTV reception with improved reception in both UHF and VHF bands.
> 
> Low Profile Design
> 
> Mounts on wall, lays flat or sits up right with included stand
> 
> Product in Inches (L x W x H): 11.0 x 0.5 x 10.0


*Radio Shack DA-5200*











People seem love this popular little amplified antenna from user reviews, and they should. Expect excellent performance from this surprising little gem. And it is small. It comes with a thoughtful array of accessories, including 12ft or so of coax, screws and wall anchors, and u bolts. It has a pretty good internal amplifier. The mounting system is dynamite. It's an single piece articulating arm made from quality materials, steel and ABS plastic, hefty for its size. The performance is what matters though, and this one performs. UHF only.




> Quote:
> This low-profile outdoor HDTV antenna is small enough in size that it's perfect for apartments or other areas where space is limited. With its anti-UV coating and waterproof design this antenna will last for years.
> 
> 
> The neat stuff
> 
> Amplifier gain of 17-23dB helps reception of weaker stations
> 
> Wall-mountable (installation kit included)
> 
> Can mount indoors in an attic, closet or other out of the way location
> 
> 
> 
> What's in the box
> 
> Low profile outdoor/indoor HDTV antenna
> 
> 3m RG59U cable (F male to F male)
> 
> 15cm RG59U cable (F male to F male)
> 
> Power adapter
> 
> Installation kit
> 
> 
> Product Length 4.45 inches
> 
> Product Height 8.22 inches
> 
> Product Width 2.83 inches
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ab=custRatings


*Philips MANT940*











The Philips MANT940 antenna gets good user reviews and comes with a nice versatile solid mount, but a bit more complicated than the RS DA-5200 above, and a good assortment of accessories, like 20ft of coax cable, power injector. It is an amplified unit and offers very good performance. It offer some VHF Hi gain as well. UHF only.



> Quote:
> Product Details:
> 
> 
> Easiest and best solution for urban/surburban UHF DTV (Digital TV) reception. Perfect alternative to conventional outdoor antennas. Can be used indoors but designed for outdoor use(weather resistant).
> 
> 
> Features:
> 
> 
> •Built-in optimum gain amplifier, 18dB UHF, with low noise circuitry, under 3.5dB, for best possible DTV performance
> 
> •Efficient flat panel UHF array, up to 40 miles range
> 
> •Compact yet effective size, 5” X 10”
> 
> •Easily mounts on wall, mast or railing
> 
> •Can be used with rotor (optional – mast only)
> 
> •Ideal for RV or boat
> 
> • Includes 20’ cable, power injector, power supply, and flexible mounting kit.


*GE Futura Outdoor









*



> Quote:
> 20dB Gain Amplification
> 
> Noise Eliminator Circuitry Filter
> 
> Noise Eliminator Circuitry Filter
> 
> Designed to Mount Horizontally or Vertically




*Monoprice Antenna* 











Expect similar performace as the Philips MANT950 and Radio Shack DA-5200 above. This one has a similar gooseneck mount as the GE Futura Outdoor above.



*HD 650 Antenna*











Expect similar performace as the Philips MANT950 and Radio Shack DA-5200 above. Nice looking mount.



*Winegard Square Shooter SS-1000(non amplified) and SS-2000(amplified) and Terk HDTVs(SS-2000 clone)*





















> Quote:
> Winegard SS-1000 SquareShooter UHF Only Digital/Analog/HDTV Antenna System (SS-1000)
> 
> 
> Winegard’s newest digital antenna. A true technological break-through and Innovations award winner. It’s the Best designed, Best-built, Best performing, Best looking, Easiest to install, Urban/metropolitan HDTV antenna available.
> 
> 
> 
> Comes with J-Type Mast and Mount.
> 
> Includes hardware to mount to standard DIRECTV / DishNetwork dish masts (U-bolts and nuts are included to attach to dish antenna mast)
> 
> Average beamwidth: 61°
> 
> Average VSWR across band: 1.3:1
> 
> Average Front to back: 13 db
> 
> Average antenna gain across band 470-806: 4.5 db
> 
> Maximum Width: 16 x 16 x 4
> 
> Box size: 24½ x 24 x 6½
> 
> Range for channels 14-69 0-20 mile average
> 
> Choose amplified model SS-2000 with built-in pre-amp when 25 miles from tower or further. Integrated 12dB gain amplifier across both UHF/VHF bands for better reception of digital HDTV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> Winegard’s newest digital antenna. A true technological break-through and Innovations award winner. It’s the Best designed, Best-built, Best performing, Best looking, Easiest to install, Urban/metropolitan HDTV antenna available. An absolutely unique antenna with unlimited installation options. Fast and easy installation, Requiring no assembly. Because of its revolutionary design, it offers multiple mounting solutions for the best digital TV reception up to 50 miles out. Can be easily mounted using familiar DBS satellite antenna hardware, on Walls, Fascias, Roofs, Railings, Over a Satellite Dish, In the attic, On patios, Almost any place an installer needs to place it.
> 
> 
> The latest DTV set-top boxes show significant improvements in receiving DTV signals, particularly with respect to multipath echoes that can in some cases prevent successful reception. However, antenna characteristics are still an important part of the whole system. While difficult DTV reception can often be overcome using high gain and directional Yagi, logperiodic, or multi-element bow tie antennas, these tend to be expensive, large and suitable only for outdoors or attic mounting. There continues to be a need for small antennas optimized for DTV reception in urban environments, where signal strengths may be good but multipath is frequently a problem.
> 
> 
> At the Consumer Electronics Show this year the Winegard Company introduced a compact antenna specifically for DTV reception in urban locations but with the ability to receive signals over longer distances. The SS-2000 is built on the same platform as the SS-1000 “SquareShooter™” which the design won a CES Innovations Award in the Design and Engineering Showcase. With the integrated 12 dB amplifier, the new SS-2000 is much better suited for digital HD OFF-AIR reception than the SS-1000 because of the confusion caused by the difference in the UHF/VHF gain in the non-amplified version (SS-1000). Winegard says that the SquareShooter utilizes non-traditional electromagnetic antenna design for superior performance and, at the same time, provides that new contemporary “look and feel” desired by DTV/HDTV consumers, and states that it will outperform all but the largest high-band VHF/UHF directional antenna systems.
> 
> 
> Increased front-to-back ratio is obtained using a rear "scatter plane" to block signals from the back of the antenna. The good front-to-back ratio, absence of side lobes, and quite narrow acceptance angle should all contribute to excellent performance under multipath conditions. A key feature of the sinuous antenna is its equal sensitivity to signals of all polarizations – a technique suggested by others but not previously implemented in a consumer product. Field tests have shown that, as well as providing rejection of multipath echoes when receiving the main signal, the antenna allows reception in urban environments using a signal reflected from an adjacent building. The antenna has no internal preamplifier. However, Winegard has a new external preamp (HDP-269) for DTV with very uniform gain over the full band and excellent intermodulation performance, which is suggested for long feeder runs.
> 
> 
> The SquareShooter antenna element is produced using conductive ink that is screen-printed onto a polycarbonate base. The element is housed in an enclosure size 16” x 16” x 4” suitable for indoor or outdoor use, with a wide range of mounting options.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=SS-2000















.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Stick Style Antennas



**Philips MANT950*











This antenna and the RCA ANT806 along with the Terk TV-55 are reviewed on this page . VHF and UHF.




> Quote:
> VHF amplification 18 dB and UHF amplification 15 dB
> 
> Channels 2-69
> 
> Dual element design for best possible reception, up to 40 miles
> 
> Weather resistant with paintable surface
> 
> 20' Coaxial cable and mounting kit



*RCA ANT806*











This antenna along with the Philips MANT950 and the Terk TV-55 are reviewed on this page . UHF and VHF.




> Quote:
> Ultra-low noise amplifier provides clear powerful reception
> 
> Optimized for HDTV reception
> 
> 18dB power injection boosts UHF/VHF signals
> 
> Ultra-durable weatherproof housing


*

Winegard Sensar III GS-1100 and GS-2200*













> Quote:
> Winegard Sensar® III Digital Ready Antenna System GS-2200/GS-1100
> 
> Perfect for home use, Winegard Sensar III antennas are digital ready! These antennas are bidirectional (VHF), directional (UHF) and will provide excellent reception 0-50 miles from the broadcast source. The redesigned head updates the Sensar III appearance, and the embossed “rib” improves stability of the wing.
> 
> 
> The attractive gray housing and elements will blend with any siding or roof when mounted. Both models, GS-1100 and GS-2200, fit on masts up to two inches in diameter. For mounting as off-air companion antenna to an 18 inch satellite dish, use Winegard’s universal home mount, DS-1111.
> 
> 
> Model GS-2200 is an amplified antenna recommended for viewing areas 20 to 45 miles from television signal transmitter. This model features a built-in digital preamplifier with a gain of 15.5 dB average ideally suited for DTV/HDTV reception. It also includes a power supply, hardware and easy-to-install mast clamp assembly.
> 
> 
> Model GS-1100 is a non-amplified antenna designed for reception in metropolitan areas up to 25 miles away from television signal transmitters.
> 
> 
> Sensar III shown mounted with Winegard’s 18 inch home satellite dish, on our DS-1111 mount meeting all wind load requirements for DIRECTV® and DISH Network® . This mount is designed for use with most home satellite mounts. DS-1111 shown here.
> 
> 
> Antenna Specifications
> 
> 
> Antenna/bracket width .......... 6.25”
> 
> Antenna length .....................46.5”
> 
> Fixed FM trap .................... -15 dB
> 
> Impedance ........................ 75 ohm
> 
> Amplifier gain
> 
> VHF ......................... 15.5 dB avg.
> 
> UHF ......................... 15.5 dB avg.
> 
> Bandpass..................54 - 850 MHz
> 
> Power Requirement......................
> 
> Current Usage 60 ma @ +12 VDC
> 
> Average Noise.......................3 dB
> 
> 
> Total Input .....VHF/UHF 200,000 μv
> 
> Output ...........75 ohm / 68 channel
> 
> 
> Reception Range:
> 
> 
> GS-2200 ................. 20 - 45 miles
> 
> GS-1100 ................... 10 - 25 miles
> 
> 
> Ship weight .......................... 5 lbs.
> 
> Carton Dimensions .....49” x 7.5” x 4.25”
> 
> Ships UPS
> 
> 
> Made in U.S.A.
> 
> http://www.winegarddirect.com/sensar...II-antenna.asp


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*RV Style Antennas



**Radio Shack 15-1634 Omni-Directional
*











> Quote:
> The omnipresence antenna
> 
> This 21" diameter antenna for suburban/urban areas, along with RVs, trailers, and boats. The estimated range for the low-profile Omnidirectional Amplified TV Antenna is about 30-35 miles with good, open terrain. It's great for areas where TV stations are located in different directions, with its 360-degree reception there's no need for an antenna rotator.
> 
> 
> Weather resistant
> 
> Built-in amp boosts signals 20dB
> 
> Ideal for areas where TV stations are located in different directions


*Winegard MS-2000 MetroStar
*












> Quote:
> MS-2000 MetroStar, for homes, apartments, mobile homes, condos, townhouses, offices; excellent VHF/UHF reception.
> 
> 
> Receivers signals from all directions
> 
> Comes with 50 FT of 75 Ohm cable and a 6 FT TV coax cable
> 
> Perfect companion for DBS installations
> 
> Box size: 21¾ x 22¾ x 2¾
> 
> Home Owners Associate friendly
> 
> 
> Omnidirectional for install-&-forget convenience; no rotator system needed, built-in preamplifier to boost signal strength—up to six times the received signal on VHF, nine times on UHF. Easy to install with hand tools on any antenna mast or light-duty antenna mount. Includes antenna, power supply, 50 75 ohm coaxl cable, 6 TV set cable, hardware, mounting bracket. Good companion for digital satellite systems.
> 
> 
> Bandpass.............................................VHF-54 to 88, 170 to 216 MHz
> 
> ............................................................ ....................UHF-470 to 810 MHz
> 
> FM Trap (fixed)................................Attenuates 88 to 108 MHZ, -15dB
> 
> Amplifier Gain.................................VHF-15.5 dB avg. UHF 19.5dB avg.
> 
> Impedence................................................... ..........75 ohm unbalanced
> 
> Response.................................................... .................... .25 per 6 MHz
> 
> VSWR........................................................ ..................... 1.8:1 maximum
> 
> Power Required..........................................117 VAC, 60 Hz, 4.3 watts
> 
> Weatherproof Housing........Engineered thermoplastic, 21-1/2" wide
> 
> Mounting Type................................................Round mast up to 2" OD
> 
> http://www.winegarddirect.com/images...lar_MS2000.gif


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*On Deck - The Batter's Circle*


*Jensen TV-920*




*A Neutronics AN AV 891*












*Quantum FX ANT-104*












*Quantum FX ANT-105*













*MaxView OmniSat Omni UHF/VHF*










.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*The Dog House*


Not recommended by this author....


Jensen TV-931

Radio Shack 15-1870

Samsung Axession TV DA-1000

GE Contempo

GE Infinity

GE Futura Indoor


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Some very informative articles, reviews, tests, shootouts, and websites. I highly recommend checking these out.



Lots of great information on this website. The list of antennas below is hotlinked to pages which address each antenna individually with comments charts and graphs. The navigation on that site isnt the best, here is a link to the HDTV Primer home page which contains all kinds of HDTV information, antenna and otherwise.



> Quote:
> HDTV Primer
> 
> 
> Comparing some commercially available antennas
> 
> 
> Net Gain for some common UHF antennas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Channel Master 4228 8-Bay
> 
> B Channel Master 4221 4-Bay (3021)
> 
> C Channel Master 4248 Yagi/Corner-Reflector (3023)
> 
> D Televes DAT-75 Yagi/Corner-Reflector
> 
> E Winegard PR-8800 8-Bay
> 
> F Winegard PR-4400 4-Bay
> 
> G Channel Master 4242 VHF/UHF Combo
> 
> H Channel Master 3018 VHF/UHF Combo
> 
> I Zenith Silver Sensor indoor LPDA
> 
> J Small indoor loops
> 
> K Double-Bow
> 
> L AntennasDirect DB-2
> 
> M Winegard Square Shooter
> 
> N Winegard PR-9032 Yagi/Corner-Reflector
> 
> O Channel Master 3671B VHF/UHF Combo
> 
> P MegaWave Wideband Indoor Antenna
> 
> Q Winegard SharpShooter Indoor Directional Antenna
> 
> R AntennasDirect DB-4 4-Bay
> 
> S AntennasDirect DB-8 8-Bay
> 
> T AntennasDirect XG91 Yagi/Corner-Reflector
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> 
> This one is a little less intimidating for newbies.





> Quote:
> HDTV Primer - Antenna Basics
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html



Here is Fox Charlotte's Digital Dude on HDTV antennas. Humorous and informative.



> Quote:
> *Digital Dude Video: Antenna Myths Dispelled!*



Consumer Reports has a nice friendly guide to Televisioin Issues.



> Quote:
> * Consumer Reports TV FAQ *



These three pages from the HDTVexpert contain shootouts of various models of indoor antennas. Testing equipment is used to ascertain relative performance. Very informative, check out his home page too, where he discusses Broadcast issues and Reviews equipment, such a Converter Boxes, Tuners, Antennas, and Signal Analyzers.



> Quote:
> HDTVexpert
> 
> 
> HEAVY METAL, PART 2
> 
> 
> Comparisons of indoor antennas for VHF-UHF DTV reception
> 
> 
> by Peter H. Putman, CTS
> 
> http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/antin.htm





> Quote:
> HDTVexpert
> 
> 
> WINEGARD’S SS-1000 SQUARE SHOOTER: A BETTER MOUSETRAP?
> 
> 
> by Peter Putman, CTS, ISF
> 
> http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/squareshot.htm





> Quote:
> HDTVexpert
> 
> 
> Winegard SS-2000 Square Shooter TV Antenna
> 
> 
> Peter Putman, CTS, ISF
> 
> http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/winegardss.htm





> Quote:
> HEAVY METAL, PART I
> 
> 
> VHF-UHF Antennas Compared for Outdoor DTV Reception
> 
> 
> by Peter H. Putman, CTS
> 
> http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/antout.htm





> Quote:
> Five (Antennas) To Get Ready
> 
> 
> PETER PUTMAN, CTS
> 
> http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/Five_Antennas.html




This is the WALB News 10 report which includes information from the presentation at the Spring 2008 Broadcast Engineering Conference. I havent been able to get more data on this....but there is good stuff present in this WALB report non the less.



> Quote:
> * Consumer Indoor Antenna Test Results Reported at the NAB Broadcast Engineering Conference *





The Kyes Antenna site is almost as informatioin loaded as the HDTVprimer site. Nice commentary on How to Get the Most out of Rabbit Ears, Common TV and FM Antenna Types, Amplifiers: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, and much more.




> Quote:
> * Kyes Antenna Website *





> Quote:
> *RabbitEars.info*




Other good sites for antenna reviews.



> Quote:
> Amazon.com has quite a few reviews at their site under individual antenna headings.
> 
> 
> 
> HDTV Antenna Labs has a good review site with rankings as well.
> 
> http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/indoor.php




This AVS subforum has city by city threads where locals discuss the local reception environment and issues, and is a good place to find what antennas, others in your area and situation have found success with. Find your area in the list and click....then read, search, join the discussion, and post questions.



> Quote:
> * AVSForum: Local HDTV Info and Reception *




Here is the thread about rotors, antennas, boosters, amplifiers, splitters, attenuators, masts, towers, grouding blocks, and all kinds of antenna accessories. The first page has lots of good links to information on the web. Join the discussion and ask questions.



> Quote:
> * Antennas, rotators, boosters/preamps... for wide-band VHF/UHF *



This is The Official AVS Antenna Topic! Join the discussion and ask questions. Lots of antenna gurus frequent this thread.



> Quote:
> * The Official AVS Antenna Topic! *



*DIY Quickie Antenna Reflector*


If you are having trouble with your current antenna. You can give this homebrew solution a try. All you need is some cardboard and aluminum foil. Lets say you have a basic unamplified RE & Loop antenna....and you are struggling to bring in a couple of UHF stations. Cut out a piece of a sturdy coardboard box, the sturdier the better, apporximately 4" wider on all sides as the loop. Then wrap in aluminum foil. Now turn your loop so that one side is facing the towers you are trying to reach.....and position your new homebrew reflector screen about 4" behind the loop. Youve just made your bi-directional UHF loop into a directional antenna, increasing forward gain. Move the reflector screen forward and backwards from the 4" position until you find the sweet spot. Also this reflector can be used to shield your antenna from electrical noise and interference from other home devices like computers.


Here is a pic to help vizualize the reflector. This one is much larger than is necessary for the antenna in the picture.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Oldies but Goldies...Discontinued but not Forgotten...
*


*Radio Shack Double Bow Tie*











This is the legendary RS Double Bow. Now discontinued. Some people mistake it for art! Great little antenna with reflector and feet for standing up. However its bows are a bit too small for the best UHF performance. The DB2 and CM4220 surpass it with their larger bow ties. Still an excellent performer....even better if you add an amplifier. UHF only.


EDIT: This one has made a reappearance as the Channel Master 4149, which is still available for sale, online.




*Radio Shack 15-1862*











This is the legendary RS 1862. Now discontinued. "The Holy Grail of Indoor Antennas." Amplified. UHF and VHF.




*Radio Shack 15-1880
*










This is the legendary RS 1880. Now discontinued. This one was available after the 1862 was discontinued. Besides the silver accents and the green power on indicator light (previously red), the most important difference between the 2 is a slightly lower gain amplifier on this newer version. I have 2 of these. They are pretty reliable at 45 miles from the towers at my location. UHF and VHF.



*Samsung TV5.4 SAX
*










Samsung made a quick entrance and exit in the TV antenna marketplace. It had a couple of models out. Not much info out on them, but this one looks promising as a Silver Sensor clone. Looks like the wider base will make them more stable, a thoughtful design improvement. Looks like they might be adjustable at the arm/base interface which would also be welcome. Has a Star Trek aesthetic look to it. UHF only.


Addendum: This one may have been discontinued _*and*_ forgotten. LOL!





*Recoton 350 UHF/VHF/FM Color Antenna
*










This one recieves COLOR transmissions! LOL!


.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Working on these ideas


How to find a sweet spot

Antenna aiming and Rabbit Ear positioning

Paper Clip Antenna






My Antenna List


DB2

RS 1880

RS DA 5200

RS Classic Single Bow

RS UFO

RCA ANT108

RS Double Bow Tie

Channel Master 4220

Winegard HD-4400

FM Dipole

Terk TV-2

Petra SuperPower 32db

Channel Master 4221

RS 1874 Budget

AntennaCraft G1483 4 Bay Gray Hoverman

Antennas Direct ClearStream1 Convertible

GE Quantum

Philips 2750

Artec Special

GE Optima



Returned or Sold



Youtube 4 Bay

RCA ANT1020

Channel Master 4030

Terk TV-5

Terk TV-1

RCA ANT806

Philips MANT950

Philips MANT940

RCA ANT1500

Godar Model 1

Godar HD-3

Terk TV-3

GE Infinity

AntennasDirect PF7 Picture Frame Antenna

Antennas Direct Clearstream 2

RS 1634

Terk TV-55

GE Infinity

GE Futura Outdoor

RS 1868

Jensen TV-931

xg91

RS 1870

Winegard SS-3000

Terk HDTVa

Philips PHDTV1 Silver Sensor

Samsung Axession TV-DA1000/GE Contempo

Philips MANT510

GE Futura Indoor

Philips PHDTV3


----------



## spokybob




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14047874
> 
> 
> Winegard Sensar III GS-1100 and GS-2200



My DISH installer put the gs1100 on my roof. WHY?? The 622 is a digital only receiver. It failed many times to pick up my locals at only 21 miles. I compared it against my Youtube on the garage TV. No comparison. The gs- 1100 went out with the trash.

61231


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for the input spokybob.


Like all antennas, YMMV. Im sure that we will have many that disagree, clarify, and specify. At least Im hoping. I hope others share some of their favorites, too.


That being said.


My friend has one on his camper out on "the land," which is 45 miles from the towers and he gets good signals on analog. I dont know if its the GS-2200(amplified version) or the GS-1100, though. I was pretty impressed though.


But I do know that these are bipolar on vhf and highly directional on uhf as the charts show, perhaps the install was bad.


No doubt the Quad Bow Ties rock.


----------



## deltaguy

Those triple threat antennas like the MANT510, how do you aim 'em? Two dipoles plus a UHF loop has got to be a problem. 3x360. That Terk one...has anyone actually used that for both UHF and VHF at the same time? The status of the dipoles definitely influences UHF reception.


I recently drove several streets in the neighborhood in search of someone with a 4228 on the roof, but couldn't find one. I'll try again.


----------



## Icedmocha

Thanks for the review EV.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/14050998
> 
> 
> Those triple threat antennas like the MANT510, how do you aim 'em?



Like a classic Rabbit Ears and Loop.




> Quote:
> That Terk one...has anyone actually used that for both UHF and VHF at the same time?



No.


----------



## deltaguy

I've been aiming, and re-aiming, a 510 for over a year and a half. It can do things the classic dipoles and bowtie can't. The uhf square can be pointed up or down for example. One of my latest crazy ideas was to point one of the dipoles down towards the patio hoping for a rebound. It helped.


I would have thought some folks would already have experience trying to get DTV via both vhf & uhf. In the bay area channel 12 is being used by San Jose's KNTV. It's too far away for me. I'll have a shot next year when 9 & 10 will be used in Sacto.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

All my digital channels are on UHF right now. Ive got PBS moving to VHF HI next year, channel 7.


Ive got a MANT510 on the way, to experiment with.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Anybody have any experience with this one?


Jensen TV-931 Amplified VHF/UHF/FM Antenna


----------



## Rammitinski

No, but I've heard it's pretty good.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I might get one and test it out with the half dozen others I have here.



edit: Do I note a touch of sarcasm in that post Rammitinski?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Mostly finished, still some cleaning up to do and draft improvements.


Please let me know if you liked my review and found it useful.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14047827
> 
> 
> Terrestrial Digital DB2 - Double Bow Tie (AntennasDirect and others)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Superior antenna for use indoors . . .



I agree. I am in a heavily wooded area (and in a hollow to boot) about 26 miles from the towers. My location has been described as a "worst case scenario".


I have been using a DB2 with a 22db amp in an indoor window for several years. Since there is a VHF station, I have rabbit ears and the DB2 hooked to a signal combiner before going to the amp. This setup picks up all the local stations in analog and also with the Zenith DTT900 converter box. On two of the weaker stations there is some minor dropout if the winds are heavy but nothing I can't live with.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14060443
> 
> 
> I might get one and test it out with the half dozen others I have here.
> 
> 
> 
> edit: Do I note a touch of sarcasm in that post Rammitinski?



No. I'm being 100% sincere. I believe there were some positive comments about it here a couple of years back.


----------



## deltaguy

3 x 360, that's 1080. I'm not making this stuff up. Any indoor antenna with dipoles and a UHF will have similar problems to the MANT 510. I like the Silver Sensor because it's only got one 360 to deal with, but it has to work. Sadly, I doubt my Silver Sensors will bring in channels 9 & 10 next year.


Another contribution to the art of aiming the triple threat antenna: unlike the classic dipole configuration, the left and right dipole need not be pointed in directions opposite to each other. The dipole towards the patio helped. Aiming the UHF first and the other dipole after towards the patio hurt reception.

Without patience, a lot of people will elect to dropkick. I'm not saying I won't eventually.


----------



## fajitamosaic

Wow, this is the thread I've been looking for. We just got a digital converter. I wish I could snag those old Radio Shack 15-1862 or 15-1880 models. I've heard so many GREAT things about them. Currently, we're just using an old junk rabbit ear / uhf loop combo. It works way better than the amplified RCA ANT1251 we borrowed from a neighbor (no wonder he wasn't using it).


We're still getting some stuttering on a couple stations with transmitters about 20 miles away though. I'd love to get an amplified antenna at a LOW cost that'll help shore those up.


Anyone have any pros / cons of the Philips MANT410 vs the MANT510 model? They're similarly priced at Wal-Mart. Does the oval vs. rectangle UHF antenna matter?


----------



## fbov

While I agree this is a very valuable thread (possible sticky?) I also have to say what spokybob's hinted at: you can do much better for less money making a simple bow-tie array like those described in the antenna making thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265 


This thread starts with a basic UHF-high design, but quickly expands to some real interesting options. Most aren't very "pretty" until you see the signal they bring in, but they also have enough gain to work from a closet if you don't like them as wall decorations (mine's in the attic).

Frank


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah, I should add the Homemade Coathanger Quad Bow Tie on the list as well. Will do shortly.


----------



## pestocat

I was looking available rabbit ears and saw a unit made by General Electric and also had a 20 dB adjustable gain amplifier. Selling price was around $27.

Any opinions?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Model # would help.


Probably a decent Applified Rabbit Ears and Loop, as far as they go, and may be enough to meet your needs.


Post your tvfool.com info.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thinking about checking this one out.


RCA ANT1020


Like the aesthetics of this unamplified loop and rabbit ears.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fajitamosaic* /forum/post/14066620
> 
> 
> Anyone have any pros / cons of the Philips MANT410 vs the MANT510 model? They're similarly priced at Wal-Mart. Does the oval vs. rectangle UHF antenna matter?



Glad you liked the thread, fajita. I tend to like the loops better than the small amplified rectangles.


Buy both (and the MANT310), and try them all, keep the one you like best and return the others. Dont forget to keep your receipt!


And last but not least report your findings and observations here, to add to the knowledge base.


----------



## pestocat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14069573
> 
> 
> Model # would help.
> 
> 
> Probably a decent Applified Rabbit Ears and Loop, as far as they go, and may be enough to meet your needs.
> 
> 
> Post your tvfool.com info.



I think it was the Futura.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

A used RS 15-1880 just sold on ebay for $86. Wow!




A used RS Double Bow Tie just sold for $35, but included an offboard amp.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14076139
> 
> 
> A used RS 15-1880 just sold on ebay for $86. Wow!



I'm using mine on my bedroom TV currently. Picking up channels through walls from over 60 miles away with it!


I wouldn't even give it up for $86.00 at this point.


$35.00 for the RS double-bowtie with an amp is cheap IMO. That person really got a good deal there.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pestocat* /forum/post/14071859
> 
> 
> I think it was the Futura.



Cant recommend that unit. Although Im not familiar with it, those style of antennas do not have a good reputation.


----------



## pestocat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14069573
> 
> 
> Model # would help.
> 
> 
> Probably a decent Applified Rabbit Ears and Loop, as far as they go, and may be enough to meet your needs.
> 
> 
> Post your tvfool.com info.



It is the Omni Amplified http://www.jascoproducts.com/product...9&idproduct=90


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That post stands. Knowing the information on tvfool.com based on your location would help emensely. Or buy from a place with a friendly return policy and do trial and error testing.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Rearranged the order somewhat, condensing like items. Edited, updated, and expanded some personal comment drafts for clarity accuracy and consistency. Added Homemade Quad Bow Tie and CM 4221 and RCA1020 and Table of Contents and reviews of the MANT510 link.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Considering discussing the Terk TV-5 adn TV-4 as well as the Terk TV 55 and similar units by Philips and others. Dont know that I want to add them in here though.


----------



## Shadowknight




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/14078117
> 
> 
> I'm using mine on my bedroom TV currently. Picking up channels through walls from over 60 miles away with it!
> 
> 
> I wouldn't even give it up for $86.00 at this point.



Anybody know how often those Radio Shack antennas show up on e-Bay? I'm trying to track one or two down.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think about 1 every 3 months or so.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14079947
> 
> 
> Considering discussing the Terk TV-5 adn TV-4....



I've always read pretty favorable reviews about those, too.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/14080176
> 
> 
> The Winegard HD-1080 would also make a good indoor antenna. About the same size as the UHF DB-2 . . .



Not really. The DB2 is 12" H x 19"W and the Winegard HD-1080 is 34.5”W x 18.25H”, nearly 2x as wide as the DB2. That would make it unworkable for me as an indoor antenna.


----------



## Rick313

Thanks for creating such a great thread EscapeVelocity! It can be VERY confusing with all of the antenna choices floating around out there, so it's nice to have all of this information in one convenient place. It's a shame that many of the older Radio Shack models are no longer available. They seem to be some of the best ever made. Oh well, with the DTV revolution, maybe they will bring some of them back. One can always hope!!


----------



## seatacboy

EV: Thank you so much for a practical thread. I have tried so many bloody indoor aerials in the past for months. I'm trying my twelfth different antenna - most have been returned, a couple have stayed around the house. I'm trying the MANT-510. Initially I was disappointed, my living room really faces the "wrong way" to get reception from most of my local stations. However, trying the MANT510 in my bedroom, it is a bit more stable than the other aerials I've used. The MANT510 seems to be less prone to interruptions from nearby pedestrians and motorists. The MANT-510 might be a keeper after all.


FYI the MANT-510 is sold in my area at Lowe's home improvement warehouses for $24.97 - less than at "the big river".


Too bad Radio Shack has a weird tendency to occasionally introduce best-in-class products - not just antennas like the 15-1862 and 15-1880 but various other electronic goods - then arbitrarily cancel them.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks to all for your kind words. Still working on improving and expanding it. Suggestions welcome. Im thinking about discussing tuner sensitivity as regards to reception, as well. Just something short and sweet, with maybe a suggestion or 2 on CECBs.


Seatacboy, Id be interested, as Im sure others would be, in your discussing some of the models and observations from your experience with a dozen antennas, if you feel up to it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Added RS 1868, Jensen 931, Terk TV-4 and TV-5.


----------



## allargon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14081477
> 
> 
> EV: Thank you so much for a practical thread. I have tried so many bloody indoor aerials in the past for months. I'm trying my twelfth different antenna - most have been returned, a couple have stayed around the house. I'm trying the MANT-510. Initially I was disappointed, my living room really faces the "wrong way" to get reception from most of my local stations. However, trying the MANT510 in my bedroom, it is a bit more stable than the other aerials I've used. The MANT510 seems to be less prone to interruptions from nearby pedestrians and motorists. The MANT-510 might be a keeper after all.
> 
> 
> FYI the MANT-510 is sold in my area at Lowe's home improvement warehouses for $24.97 - less than at "the big river".
> 
> 
> Too bad Radio Shack has a weird tendency to occasionally introduce best-in-class products - not just antennas like the 15-1862 and 15-1880 but various other electronic goods - then arbitrarily cancel them.



My MANT510's (I have two. I originally bought one for my girlfriend before she moved in with me.) are solid during the winter but unreliable in the spring when the leaves come back on the trees.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Moved "Tips for Reception" to top of guide to initiate newbies better. Terk TV-5 now has its own slot on the list, moved from "under consideration." Added comments about HDTV Primer and HDTVexpert links. Added paragraph about tuners in introduction.


edit: Terk TV-3 and TV-1 added to "under consideration list." Added "Other good antenna review website links." under the shootouts.


edit: added reference and link ot active discussion on Homemade Quad Bow Tie antenna in AVSforum.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I found this thread in which seatacboy shares some of his experiences.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14014966 


Going to add the RCA ANT110 and/or RCA ANT111 to the list. Perhaps the RCA ANT121.


Thanks seatacboy!










I really wish youd give us a good rundown, so we can improve the list.


----------



## fajitamosaic

EscapeVelocity: I borrowed a few friends' antennas this weekend and even shelled out for an MANT410 at Wal-Mart. Sadly, I don't think my results add much to the discussion. I think I live "too close" to the towers for amplification to help.


The MANT410 was slightly worse than the cheapie, ooooold UHF loop / VHF dipole combo we've been using. I think that's to its credit, because everything else I hooked up was far worse than that.


One antenna that totally displeased me was the RCA ANT1251. It's supposedly 55db amplified, so that could've been my problem... still, at the lowest setting it couldn't even keep the local Lansing WLNS/WILX stations steady. It only pulled in 5 total channels (plus subchannels), while the others averaged between 8 to 11.


Lordy, all I want to do is slightly shore up the channels I'm getting in the 60-70% signal strength range... but nothing seems to help. Leaves me to wonder if an SS-3000 or an HD-1080 (or other DB2 style antenna) would be worth a shot in our basement apartment. I'm close to giving one a shot, since I can re-sell on eBay if it doesn't work out. If I do that, I'll post my impressions... especially if they're positive *grin*


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Do you have a TVfool list of all the channels you would like to get? Please post it. Do you have any VHF Hi channels on that list of channels you are looking to pull in?


----------



## deltaguy

I would consider a separate review of good old rabbit ears. There's plenty of information about using them. For example, I've read the tips of the dipoles should be 32 inches apart for channel 7, 26 inches apart for channel 13. For some people, rabbit ears may be the only reliable source of reception after the transition. Yes, they may not get all channels with them, but some is better than none. Anybody selling vhf-hi rabbit ears yet? How tall would those be extended?


----------



## fajitamosaic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14091887
> 
> 
> Do you have a TVfool list of all the channels you would like to get? Please post it. Do you have any VHF Hi channels on that list of channels you are looking to pull in?



I don't know how to easily post the results. But if you pop in Lansing, MI, 48911, the info is pretty accurate. My window is basically at 0ft ground level. But there really aren't any tall buildings or tall trees between here and any tower (2 stories, max).


No VHF Hi channels now. After the transition, WILX the NBC affiliate will move from UHF57 at 500kW to VHF10 at 14.77kW (that scares me...).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is your list fajita. Which stations do you wish to receive? Which stations do you now receive? Which stations are giving you trouble with your current setup? Which direction does your window(of opportunity) face?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That is a great idea, deltaguy. Ill look into it. Any info you can share would be greatly appreciated. For some reason, Im thinking that the rabbit ears completely horizontal in oposite directions is best fro channel 2, but not sure?


----------



## fajitamosaic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14093034
> 
> 
> Here is your list fajita. Which stations do you wish to receive? Which stations do you now receive? Which stations are giving you trouble with your current setup? Which direction does your window(of opportunity) face?



North facing window, but pointing a UHF loop east or south-east seems to get strong signals. Only a few trees in the way in that direction, apart from the window moulding (due east) and our own walls (south east).


Right now, for digital, we receive WILX, WLNS, WSYM, WKAR, and WLAJ. Including subchannels, that's actually 11 channels.


But, WLNS is the only station that has no dropouts. WILX, WLAJ, and WSYM come in tolerably, but I wish we could shore them up a little to lessen the stuttering effect. WKAR comes in at 50% or so and is hardly watchable, which hurts, because they have 4 subchannels.


Generally, I'd just like to give everything a boost. Optimially, I'd LOVE to be able to pull in WKAR PBS strongly.


After the transition, WILX is moving to VHF 10 and greatly lowering their signal strength, so a UHF/VHF combo would be preferred.


----------



## bmwuk

Okay, after tweaking the CM4221, here's my thoughts. I basically placed the antenna away from my electronics on the other side of my living room in a coat closet. Previously from the RCA powered antenna I had a strength of around 65% - 70% for most channels with intermittent jitter.


Now the main channels with the CM4221 provide a solid 92% signal and the other stations around 85%. I am quite please with the performance and I can get the 8-1 (PBS) channel even though I believe it is a VHF channel. I am pretty amazed I can get that signal strength considering I probably am firing the signal through 5 apartment buildings.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I dont see your NBC affiliate moving from dual analog and digital transmitters of 316kw and 500kw, respectively to 14kw, excepting maybe as a transitional stage. So I would discount the power down completely.


My recommendations would be


DB2 plus Rabbit Ears with a switch for choosing between them, some RE & Loop units come with this switch integrated. (or possibly the Winegard HD-1080, but thats a monster) You can get the Rabbit Ears with integrated switch later, if you end up liking the DB2 better than the SS-3000.


Or maybe the Winegard SS-3000, which will give you decent VHF Hi. It has a low power amplifier, less than 10db gain, probably wont overload your tuner.


Maybe get them both and try them out, and keep the one that works best for you and sell or return the other. Didnt you come to that conclusion already?


Other plausible options....


Silver Sensor

Terk HDTVi

RS UFO

Terk TV-5


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14093349
> 
> 
> DB2 plus Rabbit Ears with a switch for choosing between them . . .



Why a switch rather than a UVSJ? I have a DB2 + rabbit ears hooked to a PICO UVSJ and it has worked pretty well for analog. Will it not work for digital (when FOX returns to VHF 7)? Really don't want yet another wrench thrown into my setup. Thanks.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

A combiner will work fine, too. :thumbsup


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Basic non amplified RCA ANT110 & ANT111 RE & Loop antennas added.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/14091941
> 
> 
> I would consider a separate review of good old rabbit ears. There's plenty of information about using them. For example, I've read the tips of the dipoles should be 32 inches apart for channel 7, 26 inches apart for channel 13. For some people, rabbit ears may be the only reliable source of reception after the transition. Yes, they may not get all channels with them, but some is better than none. Anybody selling vhf-hi rabbit ears yet? How tall would those be extended?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14093060
> 
> 
> That is a great idea, deltaguy. Ill look into it. Any info you can share would be greatly appreciated. For some reason, Im thinking that the rabbit ears completely horizontal in oposite directions is best fro channel 2, but not sure?



Most instructions that I've seen tell you to extend the rabbit ears all the way and adjust them so that they are horizontal for low VHF. For high VHF, I think they say to shorten them by 1/3 and place them in a V shape. However, like everything when it comes to indoor antennas, it depends on your location. For both low and high VHF, mine seems to work best fully extended in a standard V shape.


In my opinion, the most important factor when it comes to rabbit ears is the length of the dipoles. I have both a Terk HDTVa and a Terk TV1 which have about 40" dipoles. Many of the older and/or cheaper rabbit ears that I've either seen or tried only have about 30" dipoles. I have one digital station on channel 11 that is impossible to get with the shorter dipoles. It could be a fluke, but when it comes to antennas, bigger is usually better.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

fajita, I think that getting a DB2 and about 15 to 20 feet of 75ohm coax cable is your best bet. Id try that first. Get the extra cable so you can experiment with the location. You can see that bmwuk had great success with his CM4221 even in the closet. Im betting you will have great success too, with a DB2.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks Rick, thats great info. How do you like your Terk TV-1 and Terk HDTVa?


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14094972
> 
> 
> Thanks Rick, thats great info. How do you like your Terk TV-1 and Terk HDTVa?



I'm still kind of on the fence about the HDTVa. If you had asked me a couple of months ago, I would have recommended it without hesitation. The reception is VERY good under the right circumstances. It is designed to pull in distance and/or weak signals, and thus, it is very directional.


Many people have been unimpressed with this antenna primarily, I think, because it is so directional. In many areas, people have signals coming from more than one direction; in which case, this is not necessarily the right antenna.


I do have a major complaint about the HDTVa. The VHF dipoles are severely restricted in their range of motion. In my area, most of the UHF stations are in one general direction, but I have one VHF station in a slightly different direction. Because the VHF dipoles do not have 360 degree movement, it is impossible to position the antenna to pull in all of the stations at the same time, so I ended up buying a second HDTVa and combined the two signals. This works but is not acceptable for most people.


Recently, I purchased a Terk TV1 and a Radio Shack double bowtie and combined them for use in my bedroom. The reception with this setup is almost as good as the two HDTVa's but not quite primarily because I don't have an amplifier attached. However, I think I like this setup better because I can focus the antennas completely independently. I might try adding an amplifier later if I have problems with signal strength.


Based on my observations, the TV1 and HDTVa (powered off) perform pretty much equally for VHF reception. The HDTVa edges out the Radio Shack because of it's more directional nature. However, both of them perform well.


All of this information is subjective since it is based on visual observation of both analog and digital reception. Unfortunately, I don't have any equipment at the moment with a signal meter, so I don't have any concrete numbers to validate those observations. I'm hoping to pickup a couple of digital converters soon and do some experimenting to see how the signal strengths compare between these two setups. I'll get back to you later on that.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Honestly, setting the dipoles and loops and placement of indoor antennas was always more of an excercise in voodoo for me.


Rick, thanks for sharing your observations. Id like to test out one of those Radio Shack Double Bows, sometime, for sure.


Does that Terk TV-1 have a UHF loop? The reviews Ive read on it seem to indicate that it does. [scratches head]


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14096786
> 
> 
> Does that Terk TV-1 have a UHF loop? The reviews Ive read on it seem to indicate that it does. [scratches head]



It comes with a separate UHF loop. The kind you would attached to an older TV with two screws. I've never been a big fan of loop antennas. They are incredibly difficult to adjust. My experience has been that you adjust it, take your hand away, and the picture goes to pot. The TV1 also comes with a 300ohm to 75ohm adapter so that you can connect it to a TV that only has a 75ohm (RF) input.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ah! So thats it.


This Terk TV-1 might be right up fajitas alley, to join with his DB2, should he go that route. Are they built pretty well?



PS - Im surprised there hasnt been more criticism of "the list," and its associated commentary.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14097097
> 
> 
> Are they built pretty well?



Absolutely! In my opinion, both the TV1 and the HDTVa are extremely well built. I've seen some complaints on Amazon about the HDTVa, but I think that's mainly because it has a tendency to tip over very easily which could cause it to fall and break.


I've also tried the TV3 just for kicks but was not very impressed with its performance. I'm just not fond of that style of antenna. As I said before, loops are difficult to adjust and the dipoles on that one are more difficult to adjust. I think it has to do with how far apart they are. It just takes more space (which I didn't have) and patience to get them adjusted.


I have one difficult to get VHF station that I had no problem getting with the HDTVa or the TV1 that I just couldn't get with the TV3. If I had played with it longer, I might have gotten it to work, but I just didn't have the patience at the time. Maybe I'll give it another try when I get my converter boxes.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I have the MANT510 here. Ill give it a testing tonight with my Vizio GV42LF. Im not holding out much hope for it to do well. Im way out in the jungle. Ill try it at my friends house closer to town, when I can.


I also just won a Jensen TV-931 and a RS 1668, to test out.


----------



## fajitamosaic

EV: Thanks for the advice... I actually picked up a Philips PHDTV3 "Silver Sensor" at Target today on a whim (while returing another antenna to a store and giving my bud back the antennas he loaned us). Haven't had any time to mess with it, but just sitting on the window sill with the amp on I'm getting better reception of WLNS, WLAJ, and WKAR, slightly worse reception of WILX, and equal reception of WSYM. Also pulls in WZPX in Battle Creek that the rabbit ears / loop couldn't. It isn't watchable, but it's still impressive.


I guess that's another endorsement for the Silver Sensor line.


I'm going to fuss with it and see if I can situate it up higher... I'm optimistic. I'm tempted to order an HD-1080 or DB2 anyway, just to see if I can lock in WZPX... this antenna trial-and-error stuff is a weird sort of addition.


----------



## johnied

Just an observation on rabbit ears you guys try V for victory take your fingers and do a V for victory now tilt them out at about a forty five degree angle upward.. Try your rabbit ears in a similar position aimed toward the station. A widish V as well maybe about 90 degrees wide.

Good luck.


John


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fajitamosaic* /forum/post/14097863
> 
> 
> ....this antenna trial-and-error stuff is a weird sort of addiction.



Primitive hunting instincts....the thrill of the hunt. Its not about whats on TV, but what _else_ is on TV.


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fajitamosaic* /forum/post/14091980
> 
> 
> 
> After the transition, WILX the NBC affiliate will move from UHF57 at 500kW to VHF10 at 14.77kW (that scares me...).



Don't be scared thats a normal power level for a VHF Hi Channel. 


A kilowatt gets you a lot more bang for the buck when the frequency is so much lower.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

MANT510 picked up my 2nd alternate market PBS station at real channel 44 and 27kw at 23 miles no problemo. Recognized all other channels but couldnt bring them in, the ones at 45 miles, I got a picture pip on one of them.


Pretty nice setup. Stable stand. Nice long VHF dipoles. I didnt check analog or VHF yet.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey johnied, thanks for the rabbit ears dipole aiming tip!


----------



## Rammitinski

Just thought I'd mention, too, that for un-amped, traditional-style VHF rabbit ears/UHF loop models, Radio Shack's have always been very good.


Usually better than the Walmart RCA/Philips ones.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/14097057
> 
> 
> It comes with a separate UHF loop. The kind you would attached to an older TV with two screws. I've never been a big fan of loop antennas. They are incredibly difficult to adjust. My experience has been that you adjust it, take your hand away, and the picture goes to pot. The TV1 also comes with a 300ohm to 75ohm adapter so that you can connect it to a TV that only has a 75ohm (RF) input.



Do I understand correctly that the supplied UHF loop is completely separate from the Terk TV1? It seemed as though some amazon.com reviewers used the TV1 *rabbit ears* for UHF DTV with some success, which would be counterintuitive to say the least.


I closely compared the RCA ANT110 and Terk TV1 at Fry's, my impression was the Terk's supplied UHF loop is completely separate. Could someone clarify?


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14099058
> 
> 
> Do I understand correctly that the supplied UHF loop is completely separate from the Terk TV1? It seemed as though some amazon.com reviewers used the TV1 *rabbit ears* for UHF DTV with some success, which would be counterintuitive to say the least.
> 
> 
> I closely compared the RCA ANT110 and Terk TV1 at Fry's, my impression was the Terk's supplied UHF loop is completely separate. Could someone clarify?



Yes, the UHF loop included with the TV1 is a completely separate antenna. It's the old style loop that would have attached to the back of older analog TV's via UHF screws on the back of the set. Picture a silver wire in the shape of a circle with hooks on the ends.


I believe the reviews that you're seeing on Amazon are from people just connecting the TV1 directly to their HDTV without using the UHF loop. It is possible to receive UHF signals this way. Heck, I've heard that if you have a strong enough signal, you can just use a coaxial cable and get reception. It just isn't the ideal method for most of us.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That is what had me confused as well, the Amazon reviews plus the fact that the claim is that it was a UHF antenna and had a loop, which clearly isnt the case in the picture. I guess if a paper clip works then so will Rabbit Ears for Digital UHF if the signals strong enough.


Im still gonna recommend em for their use as VHF rabbit ears in combination with uhf only antennas for those that will need VHF Hi.



I see that Philips offers a Rabbit Ears only solution too, the MANT075. Anybody eyeball it. How does it compare with the Terk TV-1?


----------



## fajitamosaic

6 phone books later and I gotta say, I'm really impressed with the Philips PHDTV3 Silver Sensor. So far, it has been the only amped antenna to pull in stronger signals than our old RCA ANT120b loop/dipole.


Set in the same spot, the PHDTV3 was a slight improvement. After lifting it 2-feet higher thanks to the phone books, I'm getting 80-90% strength on every local channel. WILX NBC still has dropouts... the signal is erratic... but I'm not going to worry about it since a) they're less frequent than before, and b) that station is moving to VHF in 2009 and I'll be rockin' the rabbit ears for it.


It's even pulling in distant stations, albeit with too many dropouts, that I never thought we could get. WZPX Ion in Battle Creek Ion is 25 miles away. WAQP is 44 miles away! They stutter too much to be useful, but there they are.


I can only imagine lustily how good this thing would be if we lived on the 1st floor and not the basement level.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Good on you, fajita! Try your old loop at that location. It sounds like you found a "sweet spot."


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Possible DB2 killer?




> Quote:
> Antennas Direct’s Clearstream2 Antenna Available for Pre-Order
> 
> 
> St. Louis-based antennas maker Antennas Direct announced its new, ultra-efficient, compact, digital TV antenna, ClearStream2, will arrive June 30. Orders are being taken now.
> 
> 
> ClearStream2 is Antennas Direct’s latest model of digital TV antennas, which are optimized specifically for the 2009 digital conversion.
> 
> 
> “The ClearStream2, which is the first in a series of ClearStream DTV antennas, is unmatched in size and performance,” said Antennas Direct President Richard Schneider. “Demand for ClearStream2 is high because of its strength, reliability and small form.”
> 
> 
> The first DTV antenna created with the latest simulation software and test equipment, the ClearStream2 is designed to receive digital, over-the-air broadcasts, with a range up to 50 miles. Its wide, 70-degree beam width allows it to capture signal from towers spaced far apart, and its patented, tapered-loop design is 50 percent smaller than previous models.
> 
> 
> continued...
> 
> http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messag...81/495599.html





> Quote:
> Outdoor Long-Range Digital TV (DTV) Antenna
> 
> 
> 
> The first in a series of compact, highly efficient antennas designed and optimized for 2009 frequencies associated with the DTV transition.
> 
> 
> The ClearStream 2 antenna represents a new breakthrough in size and unmatched ultra efficient design and gain. Advanced design software allows these 10" x 20" antennas to be smaller and more powerful across the entire DTV spectrum offering consistent high gain. With the efficiency of the C2 you can have range and power normally found in antennas up to 5 times the size in a compact and attractive form. The C2 delivers TV signals from widely located broadcast towers and offers flexible aiming characteristics with an extremely wide beam width of 70 degrees.
> 
> Range: Up to 50 Miles
> 
> Gain of 10.2 dBi
> 
> Consistent gain through the entire DTV channel spectrum
> 
> Totally new engineering for post-2009 DTV frequencies
> 
> Great for indoor, outdoor and attic use
> 
> Dimensions: 20”H x 10”W x 5”D
> 
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/C2-Cle...V-antenna.html


----------



## golinux

I've been looking at the teaser for this antenna on their site for months. It's still just UHF, right?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is what johnied has to say about it.....



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnied* /forum/post/14103094
> 
> 
> Goodness thats one UGLY antenna.
> 
> 
> On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.
> 
> I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.
> 
> 
> Just thinking out loud.
> 
> 
> John


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think its also VHF Hi, if Im reading it right. AntennasDirect are claiming entire DTV spectrum which includes VHF Hi, and also Military Antenna Array Technology like the Winegard SquareShooters which also do VHF Hi, decently.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*How to get more out of Rabbit Ears*

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/14099036
> 
> 
> Just thought I'd mention, too, that for un-amped, traditional-style VHF rabbit ears/UHF loop models, Radio Shack's have always been very good.
> 
> 
> Usually better than the Walmart RCA/Philips ones.



Thanks for the tip Rammit. I checked Radio Shacks website and they are selling Philips and Jensen(owned by the parent company of RCA, namely Thompson) antenna assortments. Only one basic RS RE&Loop (and the 1868 and UFO and Clasic Single Bowtie models which I have in the guide already), and the 1878 model which Im not a big fan of.


----------



## seatacboy

The Philips SDV 2210/17 is one inexpensive antenna I've been testing out. Retailers sell it for under $15 ($10 at Wal*Mart). In my suburban location, performance was pretty decent but not quite enough to be my "antenna of choice". This non-amplified aerial features a "UHF flat panel" and a multi-position fine tuning device. The attached cable is pretty thin, but the overall assembly quality is pretty good. Appearance is quite elegant. Not quite as sensitive on UHF as the RCA ANT-110, and not as stable as the amplified Philips MANT510, but possibly a good choice for your location.


One other great feature: this antenna has a fairly wide base, making it less prone to tipping when you put it up on top of a 7-foot-high Ikea bookshelf







The 5-foot connecting cable is similar to that used for a wired mouse, it is competent but not as thick or extremely insulated as the quad RG-6 cable I use with my MANT510.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Seatac, can I quote you on the front page? I already did, but didnt name you, thought Id ask first. Id like to credit you for the quote.




Marking this thread here.


Will the Philips Silver Sensor Work?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...indoor+antenna 


Review on indoor HDTV antenna?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...indoor+antenna


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14105660
> 
> 
> Seatac, can I quote you on the front page? I already did, but didnt name you, thought Id ask first. Id like to credit you for the quote.
> 
> 
> Marking this thread here.
> 
> 
> Will the Philips Silver Sensor Work?
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...indoor+antenna



Yes. I recently tried the Silver Sensor PHDTV1 again, and took it back to the store. It did a couple of channels really well...but where I live, local TV stations are situated 12 to 23 miles away in five different directions. I really wanted to have the Silver Sensor be the solution - it's an incredibly logical design, but for my residence, it isn't. The risk of tipping over was a real concern, particularly since my two CECBs are propped on top of loudspeakers and could be yanked down to the floor when the Silver Sensor fell.


I will say my second attempt using the Silver Sensor, the fit and finish were somewhat better than the first sample.


P.S. When I first picked up a $9.99 TriQuest Model 8040 Amplified Indoor Antenna at Big Lots, it seemed promising, but the unit really isn't competitive in terms of resistance to interference, signal fade, and multipath. I might send a picture for anyone who's really interested - again, it MIGHT work at your location, but once the novelty wore off of getting a new amplified antenna for $10, it was a disappointment.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im thinking about listing the GE Optima at least in the "Considering Slot." What do you think about that one?


Ive never actually seen a Silver Sensor personally, is the bottom stand part hollowed out. If so you might can shove clay in it, to stabilize it.


----------



## mattack




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14105536
> 
> 
> The Philips SDV 2210/17 is one inexpensive antenna I've been testing out. Retailers sell it for under $15 ($10 at Wal*Mart). In my suburban location, performance was pretty decent but not quite enough to be my "antenna of choice". This non-amplified aerial features a "UHF flat panel" and a multi-position fine tuning device.



What does the "multi-position fine tuning device" actually DO? I see some other antennae which have this feature but none of the web sites really describe what they do.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think it tweaks the antenna or a small electronic circuit/filter to adjust for VSWR interference, dont know how.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14105720
> 
> 
> When I first picked up a $9.99 TriQuest Model 8040 Amplified Indoor Antenna at Big Lots, it seemed promising, but the unit really isn't competitive in terms of resistance to interference, signal fade, and multipath. I might send a picture for anyone who's really interested - again, it MIGHT work at your location, but once the novelty wore off of getting a new amplified antenna for $10, it was a disappointment.



Yeah, I tried that one too. Actually, it worked pretty well for me. It didn't get all of the stations in my area, but it did much better than I expected for a $10 antenna. It wouldn't be my antenna of choice, but for someone on a tight budget, it might be perfect.


----------



## seatacboy

RCA's ANT110 is one of the nicer surprises I've bought. This could be one of the better indoor antennas, though it is deceptively simple looking. Fry's sells it for $6.99. Note that the ANT110 sold at Fry's includes an integrated 5 foot (1.5 metre) coax connecting cable and 75-ohm connector.


VHF dipoles stretch out to 39", the integrated UHF loop is about 5" in diameter. The antenna stand is properly weighted and stable. This antenna brought in good signal strength levels - in some cases VERY healthy strength.


Over time, I did find one of my favorite channels (UHF 39 which is remapped to 7.1 and 7.2) that the large silver UHF loop was somewhat more prone to interference from nearby aircraft or even from nearby pedestrians than I'd have preferred. Interestingly, for fun I plugged it in to my TV's analog inputs and the analog OTA reception (which is truly miserable at my home) was significantly better than with other aerials.


RCA makes a similar unit, the ANT111, which sells for about three dollars more than the ANT110 and is sold at a greater variety of retailers (Wal*Mart, Best Buy come to mind). I also bought one of these, my Dad is still enjoying it. The UHF aerial is a smaller rectangle, it felt a bit lighter weight but was a decent performer.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14105756
> 
> 
> Im thinking about listing the GE Optima at least in the "Considering Slot." What do you think about that one?
> 
> 
> Ive never actually seen a Silver Sensor personally, is the bottom stand part hollowed out. If so you might can shove clay in it, to stabilize it.



I'd like to know if others have had experience with the GE Optima. I no longer am using mine; I think at its price point, it really would have been much better with detachable cables. The permanently-attached cables on the $30 GE Optima were not any better quality than on the Philips $10 SDV2210/17.


----------



## Rick313

I've been really curious about the GE 24775 Quantum Indoor HDTV Antenna . It has one glowing review on Amazon, but that's not much to go on. It looks like an interesting design. I've never seen an antenna with only one dipole before, so I would be a little apprehensive about trying it. Anyone have any experience with this one?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

bad link rick


I was checking that one out too. Bit of a mystery.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14105909
> 
> 
> bad link rick



Yeah, I finally just got rid of the link. The editor kept replacing part of the URL with asterisks, so I'm not sure what that's about. Anyway, you can find it on Amazon. There hasn't been any buzz about it, so I'm guessing it's an expensive paper weight like a lot of the new fangled ones. It often seems like the more high-tech and expensive things get, the less useful they are.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think references to it and the-bay are frowned upon by the forum owners.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Seatac, Rick, deltaguy, Rammit, and all.....


Anybody know whether a thinner or thicker loop in a basic rabbit ear and loop is better, or how it affects the reception through the spectrum and strength of signal, etc? How about a bigger vs smaller loop?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Heres a better answer mattack.



> Quote:
> Many indoor antennas have a rotary switch on them that you must set each time you change channels. This switch improves the match between the antenna and the feedline. When effective, it makes the net gain as good as the raw gain. But in some cases it is mainly for the VHF channels and does a poor job on UHF. (There is no way to tell before you buy.) A UHF-only antenna with a tuner is a good buy. You may find you can tune it to your weakest station and forget about it.



and more on loops....



> Quote:
> The 7.5” loop is representative of a large class of indoor antennas built around a loop or something similar. These may include units with amplifiers or switched “tuning circuits”, and frequently VHF rabbit ears are included.
> 
> 
> Simple loops
> 
> 
> If this is all you need, great! Some simple improvements are possible :
> 
> You can add three feet of twin-lead (300 ohm ribbon cable) to it. This will get it away from the body of the TV set and allow you to rotate it. But twin-lead must always be kept one inch from anything metal and must not touch any substantial thing that is plastic.
> 
> You can rescale the loop for your weakest channel. Use this formula : dia=4537/(6*N+389) where N is the channel number (14-69). (Plugging 36 into this formula will give you 7.5. Multiply that by 3.141 to get the total wire length.) 12 or 14 gauge copper wire is fine. Remove any thick insulation.
> 
> Higher gain is possible with a double-loop (J2 on the gain graphs). However it has a narrower bandwidth. This “figure-8” antenna should look like two tangent circles, one above the other, fed at the bottom. Keep the wires a quarter inch apart at the crossover point. This formula gives the diameter of each circle : dia=4244/(6*N+389) Multiply this by 6.283 to get the total wire length.


 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/Loop.html


----------



## deltaguy

I have one set of 30+ year old rabbit ears still in service. I can get S.F. and San Jose analogs with them. The UHF loop (bowtie) is currently MIA, but I remember it as being larger than the ones Radio Shack sells today.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14104295
> 
> 
> Thanks for the tip Rammit. I checked Radio Shacks website and they are selling Philips and Jensen(owned by the parent company of RCA, namely Thompson) antenna assortments. Only one basic RS RE&Loop (and the 1868 and UFO and Clasic Single Bowtie models which I have in the guide already), and the 1878 model which Im not a big fan of.



I guess they don't make many of their own anymore, and just sell more of the other brands now.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14106051
> 
> 
> Seatac, Rick, deltaguy, Rammit, and all.....
> 
> 
> Anybody know whether a thinner or thicker loop in a basic rabbit ear and loop is better, or how it affects the reception through the spectrum and strength of signal, etc? How about a bigger vs smaller loop?



Ones with thicker rabbit ears seemed to work better for me, although I'm not enough of an engineer to know why.


Not sure about the bigger vs smaller traditional UHF loop, but I would think if it's too small, it probably wouldn't work as good.


The ones I could never figure out, and they get pretty good reviews, are those little solidly-encased, rectangular, powered UHF models. I know that at least Radio Shack and Philips makes them.


(edit: the Radio Shack is the DA-5200.)


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Probably going to be adding the Philips 940 to the list. Is that Radio Shack one pretty good?


Know anything about the RCA ANT537?


Im largely skeptical of these style antennas.


Perhaps the Antennas Direct Lacrosse and Lacrosse Micron too.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14106709
> 
> 
> Probably going to be adding the Philips 940 to the list. Is that Radio Shack one pretty good?



All the reviews about both that I've ever read are mostly positive, and I know there have been a few people here that have had some satisfactory results with them.


Never tried one personally, though.


Don't really know anything about any of the others one way or the other. But if I've never heard anything about them from anyone here in the past I just figure they're not anything much worth mentioning.


I usually won't just go by the store reviews, because we all know how they tend to "pick and choose" those.


----------



## Charles O




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14105756
> 
> 
> Ive never actually seen a Silver Sensor personally, is the bottom stand part hollowed out. If so you might can shove clay in it, to stabilize it.



The Silver Sensor has a metal plate at the base that gives it some weight at the bottom, but it is hallow so you could insert an added weight item for more stability. I've used one for 2 years here in Honolulu and it works well, it helps that only the FOX station here is on VHF( Ch. 8), but can't lock on to the NBC station that transmits 17mi. west of my locale. But I'm not the only one with that problem, even Dish and Directv can't maintain the signal at it's Honolulu POP.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I usually won't just go by the store reviews, because we all know how they tend to "pick and choose" those.



Me neither, I agree.




edit: Added expanded comments on Channel Master 4220 and 4221, Silver Sensor and RCA ANT110 and ANT110. Added Philips MANT940, Radio Shack DA-5200, and GE Optima to the "under consideration" list. Moved Samsung to Discontinued slot. Moved RCA1020 to "under consideration list."


I eyeballed a CM4220 today. It is quite a bit larger than the DB2. Speaking of the DB2, who is the primary manufacturer/brand of that antenna, Terrestial Digital or AntennasDirect?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Anybody have any experience with the Channel Master lineup of indoor antennas?

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/antennas_indoor.html 



This one looks interesting....


CM 4040


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I bet those Channel Masters have good build, fit, and finish....as well as a quality low noise amplifier in the amplified 4030 model.


Im putting them on the "consideration list."


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14112228
> 
> 
> This one looks interesting....CM 4040



I've never tried Channel Master but have certainly heard of them by reputation. They have been known for building quality antennas for decades. I would be curious to know how this one compares to the venerable Silver Sensor.


It was kind of odd though. The page where the antennas were listed showed six antennas, but if you go to their online store, only three of them are actually available for purchase.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I noticed that too. Id like to get one to test out.


----------



## Ken H

On behalf of AVS, and our readers, thank you very much for this excellent topic.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks KenH. Glad you liked it.



Is it worth a sticky?


----------



## fbov

Ditto Ken. I caught this thread on page 1, and it's fantastic to see how much "page 1" had changed in a week. Great work! I'd support a sticky ....

frank


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14103697
> 
> 
> I think its also VHF Hi, if Im reading it right. AntennasDirect are claiming entire DTV spectrum which includes VHF Hi, and also Military Antenna Array Technology like the Winegard SquareShooters which also do VHF Hi, decently.



I talked to Antennas Direct this morning. The VHF starts at channel 8 which is a problem for me because FOX will be on 7 after the transition. There is no dipole component. The upper VHF bands are pulled in via UHF. Quite a disappointment.


The good news for those interested is that it is now available and they have free shipping till June 29.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks again Golinux


Yeah, it looks like a double loop. Its really only a UHF antenna with some gain on the VHF Hi. The posters in the main Antenna Topic thread seem to be saying.


I think your Rabbit Ears and DB2 would beat it (even if Ch. 7 was being claimed or your VHF Hi channel was on channel 11) Probably across the entire spectrum, both VHF Hi(Rabbit Ears) and UHF(Double Bow) vs the Double Loop.


----------



## cpldc

I'm getting a bit of a chuckle from the GE "Optima" antenna features list:



> Quote:
> * Passive microwave circuitry reduces color fading and constant tuning.
> 
> * 2-way signal.



What?!


----------



## EscapeVelocity













edit: Expanded comments on RCA ANT110 & ANT111 and Picture Frame Antenna. Added Amplified Philips Silver Sensor to "The Dugout"


edit: Moved Channel Master 4040 to silver sensor style antenna section with comments. New categories created.....Miscellaneous Design and Rectangular Array. Winegard SS-3000, RS UFO, and Terk TV-5 combined in Miscellaneous Design, Radio Shack DA-5200 and Philips MANT940 added to Rectangular Design with Winegard Squareshooters. Edited comments on MANT510. Added Terk TV-1 to RE&Loop section with commentary including mention of PICO USVJ combiner. Jensen TV-931 and Philips Amped Silver Sensor moved to Batter's Circle.


Working on comments for RS DA-5200 and Philips MANT940


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for the kind words fbov!



Marking this here.


The Best Uhf-vhf Combiner

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14028213


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Golinux, is it OK that I quoted you on the front page? You seem to have a dynamite setup. Kudos.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14119878
> 
> 
> Golinux, is it OK that I quoted you on the front page? You seem to have a dynamite setup. Kudos.



I hadn't even noticed that. Don't mind a bit. My rabbit ears aren't that fancy though.










I have everything mounted in a window on a 1/2" x 2" x 7+' pole that has a mounting groove routed out of the center so everything can slide up or down. There is also a rocker at the top of the pole that fits behind the curtain rod to allow for directional fine tuning. Maybe I should take a picture of my setup and post it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That would be great. :thumbsup


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Check this one out!












4 telescoping rabbit ears!


Sylvania DTA 3500


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14121681
> 
> 
> Check this one out! Sylvania DTA 3500



That's kind of freaky looking. It kind of looks like half of it is missing or something. Is it VHF, UHF, or both? Whatever the case, it doesn't look like it would be that effective except maybe in a strong signal area.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im contemplating doing a shootout with about 20 different indoor antnennas.


I have these already.


RS 1880

Philips MANT510

DB2

Winegard SS-3000


I have these on the way


Jensen TV-931

RS 1868 Delta

RS 1892 UFO


That makes 7.


Which others should I get?


I also have a Channel Master 7777 amplifier to use with unamped models to use in the test. Probably do something similar to the HDTV expert tables in his Heavy Metal 2 article.


I also need advice on a good but cheap instrument to measure with. And some tips on how to use it.


----------



## fajitamosaic

Considering their popularity and legend, you gotta include a silver sensor in a shoot-out. Maybe one of the Terk models (HDTVi or HDTVa), or the Philips PHDTV3, since that's what average Joes can buy in stores these days.


Depending on how far you live from your local towers, I'd be curious to see what you can pull in using Radio Shack's $5 single bowtie UHF.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Great ideas, fajita.


Silver Sensor

Terk HDTVa

Classic Single Bow Tie


I want to include an unamped RE&Loop as well, I think.


Terk TV-1


And these 2 Channel Masters.


4040

4030


Perhaps a couple of rectangular arrays.


RS DA-5200

Philips MANT940


And perhaps for varieties sake.


Terk TV-5


That makes 16.


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14121853
> 
> 
> Im contemplating doing a shootout with about 20 different indoor antnennas.
> 
> 
> I have these already.
> 
> 
> RS 1880
> 
> Philips MANT510
> 
> DB2
> 
> Winegard SS-3000
> 
> 
> I have these on the way
> 
> 
> Jensen TV-931
> 
> RS 1868 Delta
> 
> RS 1892 UFO
> 
> 
> That makes 7.
> 
> 
> Which others should I get?
> 
> 
> I also have a Channel Master 7777 amplifier to use with unamped models to use in the test. Probably do something similar to the HDTV expert tables in his Heavy Metal 2 article.
> 
> 
> I also need advice on a good but cheap instrument to measure with. And some tips on how to use it.




Maybe for digital signals pick up a DTV converter box they all have meters

but none have very good markings other than guessing a percentage.


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14121681
> 
> 
> Check this one out!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4 telescoping rabbit ears!
> 
> 
> Sylvania DTA 3500




Hey isnt that like my v for victory rabbit ears on one side? 



John


----------



## spokybob




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14098499
> 
> 
> MANT510 picked up my 2nd alternate market PBS station at real channel 44 and 27kw at 23 miles no problemo. Recognized all other channels but couldnt bring them in, the ones at 45 miles, I got a picture pip on one of them.
> 
> 
> Pretty nice setup. Stable stand. Nice long VHF dipoles. I didnt check analog or VHF yet.



I gave this a try. At a friend's house at ZIP 61530 near Peoria, I could not get it to lock in all the locals, even when placed by the windows on 2 different walls. I had great success with a home-built 4 bay and a 2 bay at that location.

I brought it home with me to try. I only locked in xmitters at the antenna farm, which left me 2 channels short. My indoor Utubes work great here.

I rate this a zero. I did try the analog. No good except 8 & 18.

Bob Vaughn Aledo IL 61231


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fajitamosaic* /forum/post/14122375
> 
> 
> Considering their popularity and legend, you gotta include a silver sensor in a shoot-out. Maybe....the Philips PHDTV3....



Don't even bother. I can tell you right now that all of the others will beat the pants off of the PHDTV3. It's one of the worst antennas I've ever tried - a total piece of junk.


Most people here who have tried it will agree. It has a terrible reputation.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I picked up an RS DA-5200 and a Philips MANT940 and a Classic Single Bowtie today.


Ooops! I need to get a 300ohm to 75ohm transformer for the last one.


----------



## fajitamosaic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/14126140
> 
> 
> Don't even bother. I can tell you right now that all of the others will beat the pants off of the PHDTV3. It's one of the worst antennas I've ever tried - a total piece of junk.
> 
> 
> Most people here who have tried it will agree. It has a terrible reputation.



When I searched the archives, I couldn't find enough opinion one way or the other. Based on the "silver sensor reputation," I bought one and have had success with it. We live in a basement apt: our locals are now solid and we're picking up the Battle Creek Ion affiliate that's 25+ miles away. Sometimes, when conditions are right, we pick up the other Ion affiliate in Ann Arbor, some 35 miles away.


Previously, we had no success with an RCA ANT1251, a Philips MANT410, and a few other antennas not worth mentioning.


I only made my suggestion based on personal experience *shrug*


Mainly, I just think it's important that the list have some representation from antennas regular folk can easily buy walking into the local Wal-Mart, Target, Meijer, etc.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Good point on the Regular Joe accessibility issue, fajita. Im making an effort to do just that. But in the end, Performance is King. Your success with the Amped Silver Sensor is indicative of the YMMV principle. Indoors are not pristine places for antennas. Id like to work on advice for trial and error testing to find the perfect antenna for "you." Spokybob had limited success with the MANT510, YMMV. What is important is that you find an antenna that works for you in your specific situation. Id encourage you to try out a DB2 non the less.


I wasnt too keen on the PHTV3 Silver Sensor either, but your success moved me to add it to "The Dugout."


Did you try the old RE&Loop at the "Sweet Spot" you found. You said that the PHTV3 was only a tad bit better than the Loop at its original location, until you lifted it with phonebooks. This will give an indication on whether its the antenna or the "sweet spot" that is producing better results.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I edited the above post several times. Fajita, please read again.



---------------------


Checked the Family Dollar today, and they had the RCA ANT108, which is similar to the RCA ANT110 mentioned in the list.


Also, the Jensen TV-931 came in today.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *golinux* /forum/post/14120152
> 
> 
> I have everything mounted in a window on a 1/2" x 2" x 7+' pole that has a mounting groove routed out of the center so everything can slide up or down. There is also a rocker at the top of the pole that fits behind the curtain rod to allow for directional fine tuning. Maybe I should take a picture of my setup and post it.



OK, here are some photos. The first shows how everything is mounted, the second is of the rocker at the top and the third is a pic of the UVSJ. I'm assuming it's a PICO UVSJ because the label looks exactly like *this one* . Would be nice if someone could confirm. You can see the woods outside the window. Signal goes through two miles of that before getting to my house!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That's pretty freakin sweet, golinux. What kind of amplifier are you using? Is the pole mount adjustable, left/right up/down?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is Fox Charlotte's Digital Dude Video.....

Digital Dude: Antenna Myths Dispelled! 


He's got the Sylvania Quad Telescoping Rabbit Ears on his head! LOL!


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14126994
> 
> 
> That's pretty freakin sweet, golinux. What kind of amplifier are you using? Is the pole mount adjustable, left/right up/down?










Yes, everything (except for the rabbit ears) is attached with a wingnut so can slide up or down the pole fairly easily. Rabbit ears need to be untied and retied. And of course, it can move horizontally too. It usually resides more in the upper RH corner behind a curtain.


The amp is a 22db Antennacraft (10G201). There are probably better ones out there but it was an upgrade from the old Archer.







I'll go take a pic of the amp and DTT900 shortly and post it.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14127180
> 
> 
> He's got the Sylvania Quad Telescoping Rabbit Ears on his head! LOL!



That was funny! He made some good points. However, I've seen a lot of reporters and what not condeming the antenna manufacturers for putting HDTV on the label, but I don't necessarily blame them (the manufacturers I mean). Since HDTV is such a big deal these days, consumers want to know that the antennas are compatible. If the manufacturers don't put it on the label, then a lot of people are going to assume that the antenna will not work for HDTV. Not everyone is as tech-savvy as those that frequent this site.


I have to admit though that I have noticed the explosion of new antennas on the market. Everyone trying to get their share of the pie, I guess. I liked that fact that the report pointed out that while many of the so-called "revolutionary" new antenna designs may be technologically sound, they are not necessarily better than what good old Dad used to use.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Added RCA ANT1500 to "The Dugout"


These were sold out at my nearest WM. They were the most expensive on the shelf. There was one RCA ANT111 left on the shelf today, when I picked up the Philips MANT940.....earlier in the week there were about 30. They were the least expensive on the shelf.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I agree with all of your points there, Rick.


----------



## fajitamosaic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14126749
> 
> 
> Did you try the old RE&Loop at the "Sweet Spot" you found. You said that the PHTV3 was only a tad bit better than the PHTV3 at its original location, until you lifted it with phonebooks. This will give an indication on whether its the antenna or the "sweet spot" that is producing better results.



Indeed, YMMV seems to be the story with indoor antennas.


I did try our old RCA ANT120b in the "sweet spot." It locks in the local CBS, FOX, ABC, and NBC slightly better than it did pre-phone books, but PBS is still all over the place. The PHDTV3 shows higher signal strength across the board on all channels (about 5-15% of the signal meter on our Zenith DTT900), but more important for me is that PBS and it's 3 subchannels comes in solid.


Also, the PHDTV3 pulls in the Ion affiliate at about 60% strength--very watchable, especially at night--whereas the rabbit ear/loop combo wasn't doing the job at 30%.


So, yeah, the sweet spot helps, but ultimately the PHDTV3 turned out to be the right antenna for us. We would've bought a different silver sensor style antenna, but they don't sell them in any store locally.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

As I said before, glad you found a solution that works for you, fajita. Thanks for the extra testing. Your comments about your trial and error journey will be valued by others reading this thread in the future. I think we've got one of the best Indoor Antenna threads on the web, right now, if not the best. Thanks to all of the great contributors.


----------



## Rick313

Okay, I have to ask. What the heck does YMMV mean?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Your Mileage May Vary



Let me introduce you to the Urban Dictionary, Rick.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ymmv


----------



## Rammitinski

By the way, that 4-pronged, strange looking antenna is a Smart Antenna.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Dont I feel like a Dumb Arse. LOL!


----------



## seatacboy

If you can find the RCA ANT110 at a local store, it would be very interesting to make a direct shoot-out comparison against the ANT111. I've used both, my results aren't scientific but seems like the cheaper ANT110 (with a big 5" round UHF loop) had slightly better gain than the ANT111. But could the ANT111's rectangular UHF loop be more stable against certain types of interference?


My preferred antenna at this time is the Philips MANT510 - but to be honest, a couple of channels I could receive with the RCA ANT110, I can't quite get with the MANT510. The Philips does have a decent flat-panel UHF aerial and appears to have a well-designed low-noise amplifier, it's more stable than many.


It might be fun to also include the Philips SDV2210/17 in a comparison test. It is one of the better-looking indoor antennas and, while probably not the absolute best performer, seems to be competent. I'll put it this way: my absolute best local signal (a PBS station) came in at 95% signal strength using this $10 aerial - the best signal strength I've ever gotten here except for using an outdoor Channel Master 4221. It's not a bad choice; it's roughly tied with the Radio Shack 15-1868 (another aerial in my collection).


I have a couple of older, no-longer-in-production antennas which I've used in the past (which I haven't donated yet). These were acquired used. I may test these out again and write some short reviews before donating them to a thrift store. These are:


Magnavox MANT300 (amplified)

Radio Shack ATV 1000 (amplified)

Radio Shack 15-1857 (non amplified)

Recoton amplified


None of these are best-in-breed but I wanted to snap a digital picture of each and write a short review on each so the information would be available.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im looking forward to your reviews seatacboy.


Philips SDV2210/17 added to shootout.



> Quote:
> If you can find the RCA ANT110 at a local store, it would be very interesting to make a direct shoot-out comparison against the ANT111. I've used both, my results aren't scientific but seems like the cheaper ANT110 (with a big 5" round UHF loop) had slightly better gain than the ANT111. But could the ANT111's rectangular UHF loop be more stable against certain types of interference?



I think maybe the larger loop shifts the gain curve down lower in spectrum.....thus increasing gain in the meat of the Television UHF spectrum.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14126855
> 
> 
> Checked the Family Dollar today, and they had the RCA ANT108, which is similar to the RCA ANT110 mentioned in the list.
> 
> 
> Also, the Jensen TV-931 came in today.



How much was the ANT108 selling for? Did you buy one?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

$5, no, but I probably will, next time Im by there.


I want to check Target and Dollar General too.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14130935
> 
> 
> I think maybe the larger loop shifts the gain curve down lower in spectrum.....thus increasing gain in the meat of the Television UHF spectrum.



But then again, the RCA111 is flattened out movign towards a bowtie shape. I dont know.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14112228
> 
> http://www.channelmasterintl.com/antennas_indoor.html
> 
> This one looks interesting....CM 4040



In February 2009, a fair number of stations are switching their ATSC transmitters to High-VHF. Channel Master's new introduction of a UHF-only aerial is strange indeed.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Marking this here. Blurb from the web.



> Quote:
> Another series of posts by Zed showed that when he cracked open a TD Lacrosse it was very similar to a DB-2 under its plastic housing.


 http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=63294


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14133555
> 
> 
> Channel Master's new introduction of a UHF-only aerial is strange indeed.



Yeah, I kind of thought that too. It seems a little late in the game, but better late than never I guess. I'm sure they're just trying to cash in on the success of the Silver Sensor. Channel Master has a better reputation than Philips when it comes to quality, so I'm sure they are banking on people going for the Channel Master if given the choice between the two.


As far as it being UHF only, most of the so-called HDTV antennas these days are UHF only. I assume that means that most markets must be UHF only. I've always assumed that most places would have both VHF and UHF, but who knows.


Anyway, it's pretty cheap to pick up a pair of rabbit ears if VHF reception is needed. I have to admit that when I was first looking at antennas, I wanted an all-in-one unit; but actually, I've found it more convenient to have separate VHF and UHF antennas. I prefer being able to focus each antenna independently. I realize that's not for everyone, but it's nice to have the option.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14112228
> 
> 
> Anybody have any experience with the Channel Master lineup of indoor antennas?



Fry's sells the 4020 and 4030. I've not seen any reviews of these indoor antennas, or of the more basic 3803 and 4000.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/14134058
> 
> 
> As far as it being UHF only, most of the so-called HDTV antennas these days are UHF only. I assume that means that most markets must be UHF only. I've always assumed that most places would have both VHF and UHF, but who knows.



The original FCC game plan was for all DTV stations to be on UHF. However, the final channel allocations mean that in most major media markets, at least one major station will be migrating back to an upper UHF frequency. In my local DMA, here are the stations flash-cutting to DTV from their current analog channel on 02/17/09:


KCTS analog 9/digital 41 - becomes digital RF 9

KSTW analog 11/digital 36 - becomes digital RF 11

KCPQ analog 13/digital 18 - becomes digital RF 13


When Philips introduced their Amplified version of the Silver Sensor (PHDTV3), they included VHF rabbit ears in anticipation of this.


Channel Master's quality is generally perceived as being more consistent than Philips, though many CM products are now manufactured overseas rather than in the States.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14133555
> 
> 
> In February 2009, a fair number of stations are switching their ATSC transmitters to High-VHF. Channel Master's new introduction of a UHF-only aerial is strange indeed.



Many so-called UHF antennas will also receive high band VHF.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Channel Master's indoor stuff is PCT International. You can find most of the same indoor antennas under the PCT badge.


Not related to the above.....Ace Hardware has a couple of units.


----------



## Ken H

Topic stuck.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yahoooo!


Thanks Ken!


----------



## deltaguy

Congrats EV. Tonight's posts inspired another indoor reception possibility. Most old televisions only have an antenna in and a video/audio in. If logistics were to require it, two converter boxes could be used, one to get VHF-hi and the other UHF. Plug VHF into the antenna in, and UHF into the video/audio in.

One of my Silver Sensors is definitely not going away at the transition now. The old rabbit ears may not go either.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/14134234
> 
> 
> Topic stuck.



Congratulations EV!


New question: Best Buy and Wal*Mart are both selling a flat-panel RCA ANT1500 HDTV Indoor Antenna. Besides the huge price difference, are Best Buy and Wal*Mart selling different versions of this product?

Best Buy's RCA ANT1500 
Wal*Mart's RCA ANT1500*X* 

_At Best Buy:_

Model: ANT1500

Product Height 14-7/10"

Product Width 10-3/4"

Product Weight 2.1 lbs.

SKU: 8817328

Our Price: $59.99

_At Wal*Mart_

Model No.: ANT1500X

Product in Inches (L x W x H): 11.0 x 0.5 x 10.0

Shipping Weight (in pounds): 1.8

Wal-Mart No.: 000515633

Price: $29.97


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Couldnt have done it without you and several other great posters.



Interesting.


[scratches head]


The larger the antenna the better as they say. They seem really popular.


Ill look into it, when I get a chance. Ill try to pick one up....


BTW, the empty shelf at WM was priced $49.


----------



## deltaguy

I may not have to try two converters. All of my stations are broadcasting from the same direction, but if stations are broadcasting from different directions, and one has the ability to place different antennas towards them, it might be worthwhile. This would keep the cable runs from the antenna to the tuner at a minimum. If someone were to seek only one VHF-hi channel, the converter could even be placed in the attic.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Sorry about that deltaguy. I deleted that post. I was gonna repost something later, but you were too quick for me.



Great idea!


----------



## deltaguy

No problem.


----------



## deltaguy

Oh I forgot, if anyone feels that they have to have a VHF-UHF antenna for their chances of indoor reception, not true. An antenna for each is a possibility. Choosing a combination antenna may yield worse reception than choosing one antenna for each.


This evening, I watched baseball broadcast from 55 miles away. It was on analog channel 36. (-95db, one edge) Rabbit ears beat a Silver Sensor for reception, they always do.


----------



## rezzy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14047860
> 
> *Radio Shack 15-1892 with Remote - "The UFO"*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one, affectionately known as "The UFO," is an interesting antenna. Its automated, you can set it to move within its UFO disc, to adjust the antenna for individual stations. Can be really handy for those who are fairly close to broadcast towers that are not all in one direction. Comes with a remote to tune the antenna from the chair, to preset channel positions. UHF only. Amplified.



Wow. I bought this a week ago, and let me tell you: it's an answer to a prayer. Works better than anything I've tried to date. Was even able to successfully split the signal to my normally stubborn HD tuner card and know what I was seeing on the TV was exactly the same being recorded to the hard drive. Yeah, it looks a bit like the starship Enterprise, but I like _Star Trek_!


It was a nightmare prior to this antenna....in spite of nearly all the locals being in one general location (_approx 15 miles away_).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Looks like youve lost your nacelles/warp drives.


:thumbs up


That unit is also much larger in real life than I imagined it from pictures, most antennas are smaller than imagined from pictures. Looks like a giant "Mushroom." Very cool looking.


Glad it worked out for you. Thanks for the input.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

seatac,


Audiovox press release...



> Quote:
> Rounding out the line is the RCA ANT1500, a flat multi-directional antenna whose patented dual-plane design provides consumers with more antenna in less space. *Designed to be hung on the wall, rest on a stand or lie flat on a shelf, the 10.4-inch square, 0.78 inch-thin antenna virtually disappears in a room.* The ANT1500’s patented design consistently outperforms traditional antenna designs when receiving signals across the VHF and UHF bands.
> 
> 
> The RCA ANT1500 will be available in spring at a suggested retail price of $49.99.



I didnt know that RCA was an Audiovox company/brand, I thought they were owned by Thompson. [scratches head] Maybe Thompson owns Audiovox too?

*edit:* My guess is that the WM version lacks some extras, such as mounting hardware or a stand, accounting for its lower weight and smaller box. A picture frame holder seems like it would work for a stand though.


Oh and I picked up one at WM today, at a store accross town.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Sage advice from KenH.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/14136288
> 
> 
> Others will reply, but check the 'stuck' topics at the top of the forum. Lots of info on selecting an antenna.
> 
> 
> In general:
> 
> Outdoors is better than indoors.
> 
> Bigger is better than smaller.
> 
> Directional is better than omnidirectional.
> 
> Mounting higher is better than mounting lower.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That RS UFO is like a Smart Antenna but without the tuner control interface.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Dollar General had one RCA ANT110 on the shelf, $5.


Target had the PHDTV3 Amped Silver Sensor as their top model and the Philips MANT110 as their lowest priced model.


Best Buy had the RCA ANT111 as their lowest modela and the Terk HDTVa as their top model.


Seatacboy, could you try the Philips MANT110, and compare it to the basic RCA's? The loop doesnt "come together," but attaches on each side of the stand. I wonder if that is a help(making the loop bigger), or a hindrance.


----------



## rezzy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14135433
> 
> 
> Looks like youve lost your nacelles/warp drives.



No, I think the unit pictured above is castrated; my ship has "extendable" warp drives. And this thing _is_ fairly large....works so well, I don't care about its size.


----------



## fajitamosaic

Yeah, the Radio Shack 15-1892 has extendable rabbit ears attached to the back--so it isn't "UHF only." 'Course, it isn't giving VHF any help either.


Saw one at the local Radio Shack and was impressed with its size and stature. It totally looks like the Starship Enterprise (my girlfriend called it that without me prompting her!).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Corrected on the front page. Thanks guys.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thinking about adding teh Terk TV-55, Philips MANT950, and RCA ANT701, all similar designs, with good VHF Hi performance. These may be good solutions for those with VHF Hi coming their way, like seatacboy. And although the UHF performance is not top notch, people relatively close to the towers perhaps can get by.


What do you think about that?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Marking this here.


How do UHF loops antennas work?

http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?p=503028 



TELEVISION UHF LOOP ANTENNA

http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/r3077.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Tested 3 units quickly tonight. RCA ANT1500, RS DA-5200, Philips MANT940


Heavy rain and storms just passed a couple of hours ago, overcast now. None of these antennas picked up everything solid at my extremely difficult location, but they all surpassed the MANT510, the RCA unamplified, just barely.


Early impressions of the RCA ANT1500 are pretty positive with one big negative, the coax is permanently attached, meaning you have to use a female to female connector to lengthen it, instead of just substituting a longer coax cable. Also the cable is white, I dont care for that much either. Before I bought this, I thought this unit was internally amplified, but it is not. However its large size pays off and it shows. Picked up my PBS at 23 miles clean with no dropouts/pixelation, this station has 2 subchannels, all good. Acknowledged all stations but only locked video on my strongest channel at 45 miles with moderate dropouts. UHF analog was impressive as well, I have a couple of UHF analogs that I pick up from other markets , not just duplicates of the digitals I receive, and it brought those in impressively clear, including channel 11 VHF Hi analog, which is 100 miles South in Savannah GA at 316kw. Hooked up RS-5200 amp and that combo beat everything I checked out tonight, brought in my weakest 2 channels with moderate dropouts. Comes with a little guide and a nice stainless steel bar that slips into the back of the unit to make a stand. Mounting options are nice, with 2 vertical screw/nail head mount holes, as well as the stand and also bumps in the plastic in the backside for laying flat. Very lightweight.


RS DA-5200 impressions are very positive. This is the smallest of the 3. Great simple one piece articulating arm design, solid versatile mounting system with quality hefty steel and ABS plastic materials. Pretty strong high quality off board in-line amplifier. Even came with screws and wall anchors, 20ft of or so decent coax and a nice little folded guide. The antenna box itself is small and light, and didnt do much without its amplifier. With it's amp, it swept the field of 3(excepting for when I attached this units amp to the RCA ANT1500), bringing in my 2 weakest stations at 45 miles with heavy dropouts. Strong UHF analog performance, also.


Philips MANT940's mounting system while a bit more complicated than the RS DA-5200 (3 pieces not including the antenna box) is versatile and very usable, however it didnt have the heft or simplicity of the RS DA-5200 unit, and it is tough plastic. It came with the longest run of coax, and good instruction booklet, pretty good accessory kit like the RS 5200. Its amplifier was not as strong, or perhaps just a good bit more noisy(probably both) as the RS unit's amp, Its performance was non existent without an amplifier(23 mile PBS station), and with its amplifier, it came in second above the unamped RCA unit for digital picking up a couple of 45 mile stations, but came in third for analog UHF with really dismal analog UHF performance compared to the other 2.


----------



## golinux

Very helpful info, EV. Thanks.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I would say that the RS DA-5200 beat the unamplified DB2, but the unamplified DB2 beat the other 2, at the same location.


----------



## golinux

Hmmm . . . I may give the RS DA-5200 a test run myself! Do you think I would be able to mount it on my pole? Also, how much does it weigh? Very heavy?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

BTW golinux, I edited the big post for clarity and added a few things, you may want to read it again.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *golinux* /forum/post/14141684
> 
> 
> Hmmm . . . I may give the RS DA-5200 a test run myself! Do you think I would be able to mount it on my pole? Also, how much does it weigh? Very heavy?



For a temporary mount to test, yes. The box itself is featherweight, the one piece articulating mount is solid and weighs a pound or 2. I was really impressed with this mount.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14141799
> 
> 
> For a temporary mount to test, yes. The box itself is featherweight, the one piece articulating mount is solid and weighs a pound or 2.



I'm gonna call RS right now and see if they have it in stock.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Let us know how it goes. Id be very interested in a comparison with your current system.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Just ordered a Winegard 4400, Channel Master 4220, Channel Master 4030, and 2 PICO UVSJ Combiner/Seperator 's from Solid Signal.


I think very highly of the unamplified RCA ANT1500, bit pricey at $50, but at $30, I think its stylish low profile design and excellent performance make it a viable good choice for those whom unamped rabbit ears and loop are the best solution because of amp overloading on strong nearby channels.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Performance rankings so far. This does not mean that the top is necessarily the best solution for you. It is primarily a distance performance measure. Some may need omni directional ability or unamplified units, and directional and amplified units do better in general for distance. Some of these are too close to call, this is just a good rough guide.


DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 amped

RS DA-5200

DB2 unamped

Winegard SS-3000

Philips MANT940

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications.... amped

RCA ANT1500

Philips MANT 510

RS 1868 Delta

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


Im using the RS DA-5200 amplifier to amp non amplified units. Id rather leave the Channel Master Titan 7777 in place.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14141847
> 
> 
> Let us know how it goes. Id be very interested in a comparison with your current system.



Bummer. The RS DA-5200 is out-of-stock. I signed up for email notification when it is available.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

You could call another RS out of town and get them to ship it.





The RS 1868 came in today. Pretty impressed with it so far. The fine tuning adjustment knob helps out. Work some comments up on it later.


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14142338
> 
> 
> Just ordered a Winegard 4400, Channel Master 4220, Channel Master 4030, and 2 PICO UVSJ Combiner/Seperator 's from Solid Signal.
> 
> 
> I think very highly of the unamplified RCA ANT1500, bit pricey at $50, but at $30, I think its stylish low profile design and excellent performance make it a viable good choice for those whom unamped rabbit ears are the best solution because of amp overloading on strong nearby channels.





Would certainly be interested to know the results of the Winegard 4400 test.

Im looking at this antenna with a CM pre amp to go on the roof.


John


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14143821
> 
> 
> You could call another RS out of town and get them to ship it.



Thanks. What a great idea and it worked! Should be here by Friday.


And some interesting testing results . . . I just experimented with the DB2 unamplified vs amplified. I could not pull in ANY unamplified analog signal but the unamplified signal connected to the Zentih DTT900 brought in every digital channel at almost the same strength as with the 22db amp. That really surprised me. The amp makes a real difference on the two weaker stations. Stronger stations wouldn't need it at all.


----------



## Rammitinski

Would also like to know the comparative results of the RS 15-1892.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is the location. It may help others vizualize the issues.


The first picture shows the TV Room, a lot of the testing of table top models is being done on the Oppo 970 to the right of the Vizio GV42LF, and in the immediate corner windows.











The second picture shows the North facing view in which the Charleston towers are located at 45 miles tightly clustered within 2 degrees. The gap in the trees is just slightly West of a perfect shot at the towers.











The third picture shows the Western view behind the Vizio. Southwest is where my alternate PBS station at 23 miles is located. Yes that is a huge oak tree, blocking my window of opportunity.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Edited and/or added comments on MANT510, RS 1868 Delta, Winegard SS-3000, Coat Hanger Antenna, RS DA-5200, RS 1892 UFO, Terk HDTVi and HDTVa. Moved Jensen TV-931 back to The Dugout and Picture Frame Antenna to the Batter's Circle. Moved RCA ANT1500 to the UHF Flat Panel Array category. Added Terk TV-55 to The Dugout.


Question:


Should I move the Philips MANT510 to the Flat Panel Array category? Should I pry open the RCA ANT1500, RS DA-5200 and Philips MANT940 to see what is in there to categorize it properly?


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/14145299
> 
> 
> Would also like to know the comparative results of the RS 15-1892.



Just got the shipping notification...be here soon.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

New DIY yourself design!

How to build TV antenna from a beer can. DIY, free TV


----------



## dattier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14147061
> 
> 
> Moved RCA ANT1500 to the UHF Flat Panel Array category.



Extra emphasis on *UHF* there.  Although its box says it "supports" both VHF and UHF, my experiences when I got home with it were otherwise.  Its function declined rapidly with the channel number when I went below 14.  It's going back to the store next time I am near there.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I dont know dattier, I had good success with the RCA ANT1500 on Channel 11 analog which is located 100 miles South in Savannah, GA broadcasting at 316kw.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a pic of the tiny DB2 (pointed North-East at the Charleston tower cluster at 45 miles) mounted on the chimney between the giant tin roof reflector and the giant oak tree.

*EDIT: Sorry about the pic, the DB2 is barely visible just to the left of center on the chimney breaking the roofline. Ill take a better pic and post it below. Its a good pic to get your evironmental bearings of the location though.*











And a pic of My First Attempt at a Coat Hanger Antenna.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ordered the Philips PHDTV1 Silver Sensor, Terk HDTVa, Terk TV-5, Terk TV-1, RCA ANT1020, today. Should be here within a week.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

For you more savvy folks out there.....


Question: Will a SENCORE SLM 1453I Analog+Digital Signal Analyzer Meter be what I need to do instrument testing of signal levels? And is it easy to use? Any other suggestions?


Thanks.


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14149989
> 
> 
> For you more savvy folks out there.....
> 
> 
> Question: Will a SENCORE SLM 1453I Analog+Digital Signal Analyzer Meter be what I need to do instrument testing of signal levels? And is it easy to use? Any other suggestions?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



According to the specs. it looks it , though I have no experience with these.
http://www.sencore.com/products/rf-a.../applications/ 



I seen one on solid signal too.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...ROD=DIGIAIRPRO 



Im sure the pro's will chime in if they know of others and have

some tips. 



John


----------



## dattier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14149227
> 
> 
> I dont know dattier, I had good success with the RCA ANT1500 on Channel 11 analog which is located 100 miles South in Savannah, GA broadcasting at 316kw.



We have an analog 11 here as well, and it wasn't bad on the ANT1500, but 9 was worse, 7 worse yet, and so on. The digital signal on 3 didn't come in at all, and the analog signals on 5 and 2 were snowy and noisy.


I'm returning it today.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That makes sense dattier. Its claim is that it is optimized for DTV which is UHF 480-800Mhz or so and VHF Hi. VHF high Ch. 7-13 is at 175Mhz to 215Mhz, and Ch. 2-6 is even lower at 55-72 and 77-88 MHz.


I wouldnt expect this thing to beat rabbit ears on the VHF Hi, but it does offer some gain on VHF Hi. And forget VHF Lo.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Nice review with the Terk HDTVi at Big Picture Big Sound.

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/te...nna-1206.shtml


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Pic of DB2 on roof with its new oak tree decorations.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Added comments to Philips MANT940 on Front Page.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14138923
> 
> 
> RS DA-5200 impressions are very positive. This is the smallest of the 3. Great simple one piece articulating arm design, solid versatile mounting system with quality hefty steel and ABS plastic materials. Pretty strong high quality off board in-line amplifier. Even came with screws and wall anchors, 20ft of or so decent coax and a nice little folded guide. The antenna box itself is small and light, and didnt do much without its amplifier. With it's amp, it swept the field of 3 (excepting for when I attached this units amp to the RCA ANT1500), bringing in my 2 weakest stations at 45 miles with heavy dropouts. Strong UHF analog performance, also.



EV: when you used the DA-5200 , did the antenna need to be moved around frequently? On channels prone to multipath problems and signal-strength fluctuation, how did it fare compared to the Philips MANT510?


I'm also more than a little intrigued at the idea of trying the RCA ANT1500 - particularly with an amp.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Surprise!*










Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide


DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 amped

RS DA-5200

DB2 unamped
*Classic Single Bow Tie*

Winegard SS-3000

Philips MANT940

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications.... amped

RCA ANT1500

Philips MANT 510

RS 1868 Delta

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


I put the Single Classic Bowtie in the corner window that faces North towards the Charleston tower cluster at 45 miles, on the ledge between the upper and lower panes. Picked up all my digitals solid except my 2 weakest channels from Charleston which were acknowledged but no images, including my alternate PBS station on the backside at 23 miles without moving it. Sweet! I knew this was gonna be a pretty good performer, but didnt expect this from it. This Single Bowtie is 13" long and 3" wide at the ends. Curiously, when I amped it, it did significantly poorer.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Seatac, I moved the DA-5200 from one window to the other in the pics to point them in the direction of the Charleston towers and also my secondary PBS at 23 miles. It was a quickie test of the 3 units, and I cant remember exactly how that unit behaved as far as directionality is concerned. But I can check for you.


Im gonna do a mega test once all the units get here, hopefully with a Sencore Analyzer, all at the same time(to eliminate atmospheric variations as much as possible) and with copious notes.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14154195
> 
> 
> Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide



Interesting. I had been curious about the Jensen antenna. Glad I didn't bother with that one. I'm surprised that the coat hangar one didn't perform better. I've seen a lot of posts on the web of people saying how much better the homemade ones are versus the over-the-counter ones. I figured it would work at least as well as the DB2.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im gonna try a 2nd build on the Coat Hanger Antenna, and I bet it will be much better, Rick, with better materials and different specifications from the How To Build a UHF Antenna thread. I may have just gotten something wrong.


Yeah the Jensen was a dissapointment. Im holding it on the bench, till I test at a second location. I think Im going to do it at my brothers house which is within reach of several broadcast markets and closer towers, for variety. This second location test wont be with the Sencore, Im gonna do that here, since I know the airwaves here better.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Edited comments on the Classic Single Bow Tie on Front Page.


Im gonna have to get out my Winegard SS-3000 to refresh my memory on that one, but I think its about right.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14153727
> 
> 
> EV: when you used the DA-5200 , did the antenna need to be moved around frequently? On channels prone to multipath problems and signal-strength fluctuation, how did it fare compared to the Philips MANT510?
> 
> 
> I'm also more than a little intrigued at the idea of trying the RCA ANT1500 - particularly with an amp.



I would recommend looking at the Winegard SS-3000 and the RS 1892 UFO, too, given your concerns.


----------



## TalkingRat

This coathanger did better for me than the youtube. It has a reflector. Using the narrow edge of a 2x4, so you get 4" spacing to the reflector. The one you have already built should do better if you square up the coathangers, they look like they got bumped, one is rotated up and another down, so they lost their spacing. When mine get bumped I see a huge difference in reception. I try to keep the tips of each the same distance apart, and keep an eye out for the gaps between coathangers. If they get off square, it's a one second adjustment. I have a youtube one and also a reflector version like this link below. The reflector did better with multipath, for two channels aiming it backwards helped. It's an amazing little freebie. I appreciate your great collection of antennas.

http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com/


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks TalkingRat. Ive been reading the How to Make a UHF Antenna thread here on the AVSforum and it seems to me that both the reflector and the larger spacing between bow ties are improvements to the design.


----------



## allargon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14138693
> 
> 
> Thinking about adding teh Terk TV-55, Philips MANT950, and RCA ANT701, all similar designs, with good VHF Hi performance. These may be good solutions for those with VHF Hi coming their way, like seatacboy. And although the UHF performance is not top notch, people relatively close to the towers perhaps can get by.
> 
> 
> What do you think about that?



VHF performance will matter to a lot more people than many realize next year when stations go back to their old channel #'s.


Please definitely add the MANT950. The DB2 and that channel master you mentioned may be great performers, but they are way too unattractive for me to be used inside. (Honestly, for those of us with aggressive HOA's, they might not be options for outside, either.)


That MANT950 screams hang me above a large flat panel or rear projection display.


----------



## wblynch

I have a friend that covered his DB2 with a lampshade material and hung it from a swag chain. The antenna looks like a 60s lighting fixture in his family room. Not too bad at all...


----------



## dattier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14138693
> 
> 
> Thinking about adding teh Terk TV-55, Philips MANT950, and RCA ANT701, all similar designs, with good VHF Hi performance. These may be good solutions for those with VHF Hi coming their way, like seatacboy. And although the UHF performance is not top notch, people relatively close to the towers perhaps can get by.



I just bought an RCA ANT806 of that design.  Its UHF performance is fine, but all the transmitters are 8-9 miles from me.


Can't find anything about an ANT701.


Unfortunately, the ANT806 isn't good enough to make up for my TV's weak ATSC tuner ... at least not if I can't find a way to mount it outdoors and connect it from there.  Right now it's feeding a CECB, but I'd like to view HD in HD without popping for an HD receiver (such as a Samsung H260F).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ill add a couple of those style units, allargon and dattier. The Terk TV-55, Philips MANT950, and one of the RCAs. There seem to be 3 of them, the ANT706, ANT711, and ANT806. Anybody know which one is more commonly available, which ones have been discontinued, etc? I think I saw one at WM, but cant remember the model number.


Allargon, maybe you could use teh 4220 inside its box in the closet.


Channel Master 4220 came in today.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Channel Master CM4220 came in today. It comes fully pre assembled, all you have to do is attach the balun with wing nuts, and it has brass plated steel mounting hardware, u-bolts and pole braces, nuts etc. Galvanized steel makes up most of the unit, plus some plastic, and the reflector is powder coated. The whiskers and feedlines are 8" galvanized steel, which are longer but thinner than the DB2's 6 3/4" aluminum 4mm whiskers.


I tested it down in the TV Room unamped, then took down the DB2 from the roof and mounted the CM 4220 there. I had the Single Classic Bow Tie handy down in the TV Room, so I A/B'ed it with that, and they performed about the same, with it being a dead heat, both unamped.


Early impression are its stronger than the DB2. Windy conditions caused dropouts on the DB2 up on the roof, especially afternoon offshore breezes, while watching BBC World News on Ch. 7 PBS Charleston at 45 miles NE and Ch. 16 alternate PBS at 23 miles SW. Ill check tonight, a breeze is picking up.


Here is a pic of it mounted on the roof attached to a Channel Master 7777 amp and 50 ft of Quad Shield Copper on Steel RG6. We'll see how it goes. Im pretty positive about it being a step up in performance.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Radio Shack Double Bow Tie on the way.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14159847
> 
> 
> Channel Master CM4220 came in today. It comes fully pre assembled, all you have to do is attach the balun with wing nuts, and it has brass plated steel mounting hardware, u-bolts and pole braces, nuts etc. Galvanized steel powder coated makes up most of the unit, plus some plastic. The bows and feedlines are 8" galvanized steel, which are longer but thinner than the DB2's 6 3/4" aluminum 4mm whiskers.



If/when you take it down, could you please post a detailed photo of the mounting setup? Thanks.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Will do. Ill take side by side photos with the DB2 up close. I think the Channel Master uses tougher materials, but I like the design of the DB2 better, and its no slouch. Plus I like that the DB2 uses more aluminum and is lighter, although its reflector is coated steel. I like DB2's mount better as well. The CM 4220 attaches to its free floating reflector, the DB2 to a backside aluminum post. Youll be able to see it in the pics, when I post.


Did you get the RS DA-5200 yet?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a pic of the xg91 that I took down. I already disassembled it and its ready to ship. Gonna put it up on ebay. Been up for 8 months or so, excellent shape. Its a great deep fringe antenna. Its just too directional for my situation.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14154195
> 
> *Surprise!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide
> 
> 
> DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp
> 
> RS 1880
> 
> RCA ANT1500 amped
> 
> RS DA-5200
> 
> DB2 unamped
> *Classic Single Bow Tie*
> 
> Winegard SS-3000
> 
> Philips MANT940
> 
> My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications.... amped
> 
> RCA ANT1500
> 
> Philips MANT 510
> 
> RS 1868 Delta
> 
> My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications
> 
> Jensen TV-931
> 
> RS 1870
> 
> 
> I put the Single Classic Bowtie in the corner window that faces North towards the Charleston tower cluster at 45 miles, on the ledge between the upper and lower panes. Picked up all my digitals solid except my 2 weakest channels from Charleston which were acknowledged but no images, including my alternate PBS station on the backside at 23 miles without moving it. Sweet! I knew this was gonna be a pretty good performer, but didnt expect this from it. This Single Bowtie is 13" long and 3" wide at the ends. Curiously, when I amped it, it did significantly poorer.



EV: my experiences with the Radio Shack 15-234 UHF Outline Bowtie have been fairly good but not totally satisfying. On a couple of stations, it's pulled in amazingly high signal levels. However, in my locations it's prone to pulling in multipath interference and signal fade. My location is a couple of miles from a nearby airport and flight path, and is prone to a lot of multipath inteference. I did like RS' "Single Bowtie", especially for the $4.39 price at RS. Are there tweaks to reduces its sensitivity to interference? Please share your experiences.


In my user experience, the Radio Shack 15-234 UHF Outline Bowtie and RCA ANT110 were pretty close, I'd give a nudge towards the RCA. It generally was a bit more resistant to signal drop out, though overall signal levels were a bit higher on the Single Bowtie than the RCA loop.


Still evaluating the Philips MANT-510, which I believe to be a more dependable suburban indoor antenna (in terms of signal feed stability) than the RS 15-234 UHF Outline Bowtie. My sense is the MANT510 also provides a somewhat more stable signal feed than the RCA ANT110 or Radio Shack 15-1868 (another of my favorites).


Later this summer, I may work with a couple of condo neighbors to set up a rooftop antenna. In the meantime, I'll keep looking at the various indoor antennas discussed here.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im giving the nudge to the Single Bow Tie. I just got an RCA ANT108, and Im impressed with it. It seems to be fairly well built, nice and tight. And it did pretty well for me but not as well as the single bowtie, but it has rabbit ears for VHF Hi integrated that the Single Bow doesnt, so plus one there. I think your issues with multipath and interence made the RCA's lessor gain an advantage in your situation(not to mention it has rabbit ears for VHF Hi. The MANT510 has a more directional array I think, and even if its not, one side is permanently downwards oriented. I think that is helping you.


I like the 1868 too, even though it doesnt look that way from the list. It the MANT510 and the RCA ANT1500 are tightly packed and I like them all better than the Philips MANT940 and the amped Youtube antenna. Im still working on things, atmospherics are almost certainly skewing my So Far Performance list. I used the Single Bow Tie today, and it didnt do as well, but still pretty good.


Oh, the RCA ANT108, I like it.

*Surprise #2!*


Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide


DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 amped

RS DA-5200

DB2 unamped

Classic Single Bow Tie

Winegard SS-3000
*RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)*

Philips MANT940

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications.... amped

RCA ANT1500

Philips MANT 510

RS 1868 Delta

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


----------



## EscapeVelocity

As to making the Single Bow Tie better for you, cut out some cardboard from a box wherever you can find one and wrap it in aluminum foil. You can experiment with the dimensions, but Id start out with say 17" x 9". You just made a reflector, which can make your omni or bi directional antenna more directional. Just use it hand held behind the bowtie also hand held, and move it around experiment with it. Id say hold it about 3" to 4" back will be best and parrallel. Aslo, you can use your new reflector with all your other antennas, the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT510, etc. Put it between your antenna and the airport(or other source of interference) maybe?


Let us know if you try this and your thoughts and observations.


BTW, I did just that with mine, to check it out today, with one side of the corner reflector off of the xg91. It worked, I got more gain out of the Single Bow Tie and it picked up a couple of channels it was struggling with today.


PS - The RS Single Bow has a Rabbit Ear size plastic clip for mounting, and a smaller one on the other side for mounting to a small wire. Ill mention that in the front page guide.


PPS - Im interested in your experiences too. You have different concerns than me. I dont have much interference out in the boondocks.










PPPS - Im thinking of moving the RS 1868 Delta up above the Philips MANT510 and RCA ANT1500. But maybe Ill just leave it there, till the instruments get broken out.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Added comments to Classic Single Bow Tie. Added Philips MANT950 and RCA 806 to The Dugout. Added pics instead of attachments.


And Ive got my camera involved.


----------



## dattier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14159167
> 
> 
> There seem to be 3 of them, the ANT706, ANT711, and ANT806. Anybody know which one is more commonly available, which ones have been discontinued, etc?



I purchased an ANT806 at the Wal-Mart in the southeastern part of Niles, Illinois (there's another in the northwestern part of the same town) Tuesday, June 24 (coincidentally, the day my CECB coupons would have expired if I hadn't used them), so if it's discontinued, it's remaindered but not gone.  Wal-Mart had a few more on the shelf, next to the ANT1500 boxes.


----------



## wblynch

Curious if anyone has tried tying two of those little RS bow ties together?


I'm thinking to separate them by about 5" with the feed lines joined in the middle to a balun (roughly emulating a DB2)...


It would be a fun experiment. Especially to compare against the popular Silver Sensor.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Great idea wblynch, I wonder what that does with the impedence and loading? Maybe seperate them by 7", too.



Winegard HD-4400 and Channel Master 4030 came in today.


----------



## wblynch

I got two at lunch time so I'll play around with them tonight and over the weekend. Gotta try them upstairs and downstairs both, to see what difference it makes.


I think I'll chop the feed lines and join them in the middle, like the YouTube DIY's.


If you think 7" is a better spacing, I will use that. I was only guessing...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a pic of my newly assembled Winegard 4400. I dont think the build quality matches that of the Channel Master. Also the Channel Master came preassembled. Winegard 4400, some assembly required. Also, the picture led me to believe that a mast mount was included, it was not. Furthermore the brass plated steel bolts didnt come with matching nuts and washers...those were steel. One more thing, some of the front element assembly's elements/whiskers didnt fold out perpendicular to the sub-mast....the plastic behind them has grooves which the elements/whiskers settle into for support.


The front post and the back post come preassembled, but you have to twist out the elements and then join them together.


It is however very light weight. Rough guestimate, this Quad weighs only slightly more than the Double Bow Channel Master 4220.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here are the pics of the CM 4220. I liked that it came pre-assembled, and the quality materials. The reflector screen is pretty hefty and stout. Also the reflector screen seems to be out of a flat plane.


Please excuse the quickie ghetto mount.







The bracket on the back should be flat with the reflector screen and the U bolts tight to the mast.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

wblynch, let us know how it goes. :thumbsup


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Are those pics too big, its between that size and the smaller size on some of the other ones I posted? Someone please advise.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14162212
> 
> 
> .... I just got an RCA ANT108, and Im impressed with it. It seems to be fairly well built, nice and tight.



I agree that the RS Single Bow Tie has greater UHF gain than the RCA ANT110; just about everybody ought to try one to see how it works at your location. My suburban location slightly below the crest of a hill, two miles from a major airport and near (but not under) a flight path, is a challenging one for indoor antenna reception.


RCA's ANT108 and ANT110 may be identical, just with different product numbers depending on the retailer - unless one has longer-extending VHF ears. Both of these might be slightly stronger for UHF reception than the ANT111 (with a smaller, rectangular UHF loop) sold at Wal*Mart and Best Buy.


----------



## seatacboy

As time goes by, I've become more impressed with the Philips MANT510. It isn't able to work miracles - there are still some local stations I can't quite pull in - but I've noticed this powered antenna seems to reject certain types of multipath interference and maintain signal strength better than quite a few others I've used.


The MANT510 seems to also have a decent quality amp. Could someone shed some light on this, and comparison between the MANT510 (with its flat-panel UHF array) and the MANT410?


The Radio Shack 1868 "Delta", a nonamplified antenna, has performed competently as well. It can provide a stable UHF signal. Has anyone tried using this with an amplifier?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Channel Master 4030.


I thought this simple slim metal loop amplified RE & Loop might be pretty good. It is. It comes with a 6ft detachable coax cable and a wall wart for power. Build quality is good. One special feature is dual 75 ohm coax outs on the back, not switched. They are both active, so you can use it with 2 devices at once, like a VCR and TV, or Computer Tuner Card and TV, etc. Its all black design is low key. I dont know whether the knob on front is for amp level or fine tuning, Ill look into that. One other note, there is no LED power on indicator light. Channel Master also has similar looking models, 4010 and 4020, both unamped with the basic model 4010 not having the fine tuning knob. They are stocked at my local Tru Value, I know the owner pretty well, Ill see if I can take them home for a quick test run.


PS, the loop is more adjustable on this one than the RCA ANT108, but all you have to do with the ANT108 is turn the whole unit, to move the loop in azimuth.



DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 amped

RS DA-5200

DB2 unamped

Classic Single Bow Tie

Winegard SS-3000

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)
*Channel Master 4030*

Philips MANT940

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications.... amped

RCA ANT1500

Philips MANT 510

RS 1868 Delta

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14168704
> 
> 
> I agree that the RS Single Bow Tie has greater UHF gain than the RCA ANT110; just about everybody ought to try one to see how it works at your location. My suburban location slightly below the crest of a hill, two miles from a major airport and near (but not under) a flight path, is a challenging one for indoor antenna reception.
> 
> 
> RCA's ANT108 and ANT110 may be identical, just with different product numbers depending on the retailer - unless one has longer-extending VHF ears. Both of these might be slightly stronger for UHF reception than the ANT111 (with a smaller, rectangular UHF loop) sold at Wal*Mart and Best Buy.



:thumbsup


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14168737
> 
> 
> The Radio Shack 1868 "Delta", a nonamplified antenna, has performed competently as well. It can provide a stable UHF signal. Has anyone tried using this with an amplifier?



I have. And similar to the RS Single Bow Tie, it performed worse with an amp attached. I wonder if Im overloading.


You might want to look into bandpass filtering Seatac. Filter out as much as possible the offensive interference.


----------



## fajitamosaic

Round 2 over here. We got a Samsung DTB-H260F set top box for my hidef monitor in the bedroom. Dragged the old RCA ANT120b rabbit ears/loop combo in there and were able to pull in the two strongest signals... but need something to pull in the other 4 channels we actually watch. Darn basement apartments!


The window ledge in there is thin, so that rules the Silver Sensor we use in the living room out... and I'm not sure what 50+ feet of coax and splitters would do in pratical terms.


Tonight, we picked up the RCA ANT1500 on a whim. Yeah, long story short: it's no good in a basement apartment. Also, contrary to what the box says, it is VERY directional. Setting it in front of the window didn't help. Did manage to pull in one extra channel by facing the flat side south and resting the panel on top of a doorway.


Tomorrow, going to take the ANT1500 back and perhaps buy an inline amp for the rabbit ears/loop.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

What kind of signal levels are you getting with the RCA ANT120B on the Samsung H260F?


----------



## fajitamosaic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14169391
> 
> 
> What kind of signal levels are you getting with the RCA ANT120B on the Samsung H260F?



2 to 5 bars. It actually pulls in more signal in the middle of the room than the ANT1500 (which does zip). When put on top of the door frame, the ANT120B and ANT1500 both clock in 5 bars on the stronger channels... the 1500 just happens to lock in that extra channel.


Not a raging endorsement for a $50 antenna... at least, not compared to the ANT120B which is just a typical rabbit ears / loop.


That's why I figure I'll give amplification a shot -- maybe I just need to boost what's already there?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah, $50 is too much, at $30, it may be worth it for some for its aesthetic value. Its signal level fell into a great range for amping at my location, looks like.


Cheap RE&Loops are pretty darn good, from my testing.


Good idea on trying amplification.



edit: Maybe try a Single Bowtie, I cant remember if you need VHF Hi, or not.


----------



## fajitamosaic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14169908
> 
> 
> Cheap RE&Loops are pretty darn good, from my testing.



I am quoting this for emphasis. People have said it before and my experience has borne this out: Do not underestimate the $5 cheapies.


I'm going to see if I can track down an inline amp for under $20 locally and report back.


I look forward to your continuing tests. When you're all done, I think I may try out the best "cheapie" on the list just to see how it works in our basement dungeon. I'm beginning to think that's our main problem here, being under or at ground level.


P.S.: Did try the single bowtie. It's just too effing hard to find a stable spot for it. I get signal fluctuations like mad and no one spot seems to satisfy it for long.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14169118
> 
> 
> You might want to look into bandpass filtering Seatac. Filter out as much as possible the offensive interference.



Bandpass filtering is something I'd like to learn more about.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fajitamosaic* /forum/post/14169947
> 
> 
> P.S.: Did try the single bowtie. It's just too effing hard to find a stable spot for it. I get signal fluctuations like mad and no one spot seems to satisfy it for long.



Alas, you put words to my dilemma.


The 5-inch round UHF loop in the RCA ANT110 (and its apparent identical twin, ANT108) seem to be less frustrating than the single bow tie in my location. I would really like to find a good bandpass filter.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14168876
> 
> 
> Channel Master 4030.



EV, thank you for reviewing the CM 4030. I've seen no other online reviews of this antenna. In your evaluation, how placement-sensitive was this unit?


Fry's Electronics superstores sell this unit for about $35.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

RCA ANT1020, Terk HDTVa, and RS 1892 UFO, came in today.


----------



## golinux

I'm still waiting for the RS DA-5200. All the photos have been very informative. Great job!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is another one for you. Looking forward to your observations comments.


Channel Master 4220 vs DB2. This one is too close to call. Ive had this on up for a couple of days, and I cant discern heads or tales between the 2. Both have break ups during windy conditions, but I think the Channel Master has slightly higher gain on my weakest station Ch. 36 (real channel 35) digital. This setup is the CM4220 + CM 7777 amplifier + 50 ft of quad shield copper on steel RG6 coax. Same as with the DB2.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Sorry for the diversion into Roof Mounted Outdoor Antennas.


I installed the Winegard HD4400 today. Here are some pics.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here are comparative pics of the CM 4220 and the DB2, plus a closup of the DB2 mount, etc. As you can see, the DB2 has only one mast mount vs the CM 4220's 2 brass plated steel mounts, and the CM4220 has larger 8" galvanized steel whiskers compared to the DB2's 6 3/4" aluminum whiskers. PS - I bought the DB2 used, and it had been mounted outside for an undetermined amount of time, it is not brand new like the others.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *golinux* /forum/post/14173575
> 
> 
> I'm still waiting for the RS DA-5200. All the photos have been very informative. Great job!



Just gonna go unpack it now.


Wish you could optimize your photos more. The download time (and expected timeouts) are KILLING me on dialup.










Are you saving your photos for web?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is an interesting graph, I found. Incidentally, this thread is coming up on page 2 of google search for many combinations of terms in the title plus a few others in comination with "Indoor Antenna." Some on page 1, and some on page 3 to 5. And we are averaging 500 clicks a day.









Omgili Buzz Graphs


----------



## EscapeVelocity

golinux, Should I downsize them to the smaller size, I asked that question earlier. I have a choice between 640x480 and 320x240. The smaller photos are 320 and the larger 640.


I can also ask Seatac to edit his posts and stop duplicating pics. Im sure he wouldnt mind.


640x480 is about 200kb to 250kb, 320x240 is about half that, I think.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I looking for a free web image optimizer now golinux.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14175187
> 
> 
> golinux, Should I downsize them to the smaller size, I asked that question earlier. I have a choice between 640x480 and 320x240. The smaller photos are 320 and the larger 640.
> 
> 
> I can also ask Seatac to edit his posts and stop duplicating pics. Im sure he wouldnt mind.
> 
> 
> 640x480 is about 200kb to 250kb, 320x240 is about half that, I think.



Why do you only have those two choices? You should be able to make them any size you want.


You don't necessarily need to change the DIMENSIONS. Just save at a slightly lower QUALITY (save for web is best). Or post a thumbnail linked to the full photo.


Just so you know it can be done, *look at some of these photos* on one of the sites I maintain. (You can drill down to what interests you.) Most of them are under 100px and very user friendly.


NOTE: If you post a large file and through the html or CSS ask it to display at a smaller size, THE ORIGINAL FILE WILL STILL BE LOADED. In other words changing the on-screen size via code does NOT change the file size that the browser loads.


Sorry if you already know this - not trying to be a PITA.










And yes, not duplicating pics would help.


----------



## golinux

if you don't have Photoshop, you could run GIMP off a live Linux disk and save your edits to a flash drive.


You could also check out *IrfanView* . It's been so long since I've been in Windoze, I kinda forget what else is out there.


----------



## golinux

It pretty much bombed here. Signal strength much lower than the DB2 and it broke up a lot. Back to the store.


Now that I got the Zenith DTT 901, I'm not getting any breakups with the amped DB2. I'm soooo happy! All I'm missing (possibly) is a DTVPal (for the timer).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I uploaded Web Optimized pics to Photobucket.


Please check it out to see if its better. The pic size is 50k +/- 20k, now.


And I learned yet antoher thing today. Optimizing photos for web! Cha-ching!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*RCA ANT1020
*

I like this basic unamped RE & Loop. It performed similar to the RS 1868 Delta, with similarly pleasing aesthetics. The VHF Rabbit Ears rotate 360 degrees in altitude and azimuth. It has a permanently attached unshielded coax cable like the RCA ANT110. Im moving them above the Philips MANT510 and RCA ANT1500 as I have determined them to be bringing in more stations. Also adding the CM4220 to the list in its outdoor position and indoor position. The CM4220 and the DB2 were too close to call on the roof, mainly because I have tree problems that scatter the signals during winds, but I think the CM4220 gave me better performance on my 2 weakest Charleston channels.


Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide

*Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof*

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 amped

RS DA-5200

DB2 unamped indoors

Classic Single Bow Tie
*Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors*

Winegard SS-3000

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications.... amped
*RS 1868 Delta*
*RCA ANT1020*

RCA ANT1500

Philips MANT 510

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications

RS 1870


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14175860
> 
> 
> I uploaded Web Optimized pics to Photobucket.



Great!



> Quote:
> Please check it out to see if its better. The pic size is 50k +/- 20k, now.



Much better. Thanks.



> Quote:
> And I learned yet another thing today. Optimizing photos for web! Cha-ching!


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14175625
> 
> 
> I looking for a free web image optimizer now golinux.



If you're using Windows XP, you can download the *Image Resizer* Power Toy from Microsoft . It works very well. Usually, reduces images to like 10k or less. I use it when I have to scan images to imbed in mp3 files.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks Rick.


Performance Chart added to the front page. Will update regularly. Edited Table of Contents. Added link to Antenna Basics page that is hard to find on the HDTVprimer website. Added simplified indoor antenna gain chart from HDTV primer.


----------



## seatacboy

EV: have you been able to evaluate the Terk TV1?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Not yet, it hasnt been delivered yet.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Radio Shack RS 15-1892 - The UFO*


*aka The Magic Mushroom, The Starship Enterprise, The Frisbee*



This thing is GREAT! The geek factor is high on this one! LOL! Its freakin sweet! Its like a Smart Antenna without the tuner control interface.


I bought this one used....and it came with everthing but the instructions. Undaunted, i hooked it up, and found that I could set the channels and move the rotating antenna within the disc and set the positions and gain, pretty intuitively. I later downloaded and printed instructions in order to write this mini review. This one will be longer than others. Although I only have basically 2 different tower locations, this thing rocked, and would be 10 times more useful if I had more tower directions. Non the less, it was useful at my location....and performed excellently. This one was too close to call really with DB2 unamped, RS DA-5200, and the amped RCA ANT1500. Its got a nice backlit LCD readout for the Channel #, Direction #(kinda arbitrary), and Gain Level #. You can choose between 3 gain levels, 1-2-3, or Low-Medium-High, corresponding (according to the manual) to 13db Min, 18db Min, and 22db Min amplifier levels. I tried this out but ended up setting all my channels to high gain for no particular reason other than "let's go full blast...Warp Speed!" There are 12 selectable positions for the antenna within its disc. There are Plus and Minus buttons on the remote which change the gain level. There are also Left and Right arrow buttons that change the direction of the antenna within its disc. Additionally, there is a press and hold button to turn off the LED display backlight, and a number pad to input channels. The remote is pretty small, but fairly simple to operate. All the buttons are the same size, and its not backlit, and its kind of hard to read...but the layout is simple enough, and the buttons large enough to operate. There is one more large button on the remote with the label Store, for storing a group of settings for an individual channel once you have it set up in the right direction and gain for best signal on that particular channel. One thing to note is that when the antenna moves, the motor is audible, but not obnoxiously loud. Kinda reassuring actually, you can hear that its working. On the back there is a 75ohm coax output hookup and an Aux input, and a switch to choose between the antenna and the Aux input....plus the power input, comes with wall wart and 6ft of detachable coax, plus remote, and guide booklet. It has 2 telescoping Rabbit Ears that are adjustable but limited in motion by the disc. I didnt really test them out....nor any of the other units really. They are for VHF reception. This unit does not have an FM Trap, and can be used as an FM antenna via its Rabbit Ears. The disc measures slightly over 12", its a pretty large antenna. There are Left Right Arrow buttons for changing the antenna position within the disc, and Plus and Minus buttons for adjusting the gain on the front of the antenna left and right of the LCD info panel, plus the push and hold button for turning off the LCD backlight.


Performance.


I only tested this unit on top of the Oppo 970 DVD player, it didnt make it to the North corner window like the RS Single Bow Tie and the amped RCA ANT1500 and some others did. It worked pretty good, from my original positioning. But later, after I figured out the remote and operation, I moved it some, but still on top of the Oppo to optimize its performance. I found that all my Charleston channels that are clustered tightly to the North East at 45 miles worked best on postion 8 and slightly worse on postion 7 and 9....and my alternate PBS station at 23 miles SW worked best at position 1 or 12....I probably could have centered its performance on one or the other by twisting the unit slightly clockwise or counter clockwise. With a little tweaking, I had this thing running the board on all my channels, but it seemed that the signal strength may have been a little less than the RS DA-5200. My Vizio GV42LF LCD doesnt have signal strength bars....that is why I havent been reporting them.


How to set the antenna for a channel?


This is how I did it. I first changed to the desired channel on the Vizio TV. Then I entered the corresponding channel # on the remote which was then indicated on The UFO's LCD screen, in order to set the antenna direction and gain settings to maximize its performance on that channel. Then I moved the antenna direction with the Left and Right Arrows all the way from position 1 thru 12, it became obvious when the reception locked on. Lets say that channel 8 and 7 seemed like the best candidates from the quick run thru the positions. Then I moved up to 9 to check, and it still worked but with pixelation and dropouts. Back to 8 then on to 7 then 6...oops getting worse again. A/B 7 and 8, physically twist or move the unit if you need to, and there you have it. Position 8. Then check the gain level. Boom you are finished. Push and hold the store button, the info on the panel starts blinking, then press the store button again, and its set. You may have to adjust the gain earlier, if you are overloading your tuner. I cant comment on the effectiveness of the gain adjustment.


None the less...


Pretty geekin' sweet! Beam me up Scotty!



Here is a link to the UFO on Radio Shacks Website, where you can read user reviews and link to the manual in pdf format.

http://www.radioshack.com/sm-buy-the...i-2131034.html 

*eidt: The manual states that there are 99 channel presets available, Ch. 0-99.*





Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 amped

RS DA-5200
*RS 15-1892 UFO*

DB2 unamped indoors

Classic Single Bow Tie

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications.... amped

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

RCA ANT1500

Philips MANT 510

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications

RS 1870


----------



## fajitamosaic

Wow... the Radio Shack antennas are really doing you nicely...


Can you provide info on how many channels / signal strength you were getting with the 15-1868 and the 15-1892 UFO?


Also, did you have to constantly adjust the UFO to pull in channels, or did you find a good all-in-one spot?


(I'm interested in the UFO for perhaps fixing our bedroom antenna's problem... but I'm also curious as to how the relatively cheap 1868 did too)


----------



## MSDOS

First glance at this thread makes me want to read it over and over ! thanks.


1 important point I believe that all indoor antenna for VHF are very nearly all going to

be rabbit ear type with or without an amplifier. Is this right?


IF so could we get some 'best settings ' advice for setting them?


I've played with mine for so long my ears are getting furry and I;m growing a tail.


Nothign seems to be better than anything else. I figure Ill have to go outside but

the 1 station is only 25 miles away and it seems I should be seeing it very well.


Advice?


Thanks. Now to read and learn.


----------



## dattier

When I took mine back, the clerks at Radio Shack were surprised.  They'd never heard of anyone's being unhappy with it before.


It turned out that my problems were not the fault of the antenna anyway, but I didn't know it at the time and was buying and returning antennas like nobody's business.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey, mosaic. I am still working on the comments. I dont have a signal strength meter on my Vizio GV42LF, cant report.


No, I didnt have to constantly adjust the UFO.


Ill do a write up on the 1868, maybe tommorrow.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey MS DOS, glad you like it! :thumbsup


Im working on an aiming the Rabbit Ears tips section. Hadnt gotten to it yet. But on page 4 or 5ish of this thread, I found a site and posted a link to it about that topic. And deltaguy and johnied discussed it a little bit.


----------



## fajitamosaic

Antennas make me want to smack myself with how random they seem to be (and how the tuner you're using and the room you're in have such huge effects)...


... so, I found a cheapie RCA amp today at Meijer. The 10db VH100. $15. I'm sure it's not the "quietest" amp out there...


... anyway, I hook it up to the RCA ANT120b rabbit ears / loop in the bedroom and it doesn't help whatsoever. The signal strength went down. HOWEVER, I took the same combo out into the living room, placed the antenna on the window ledge, and hooked it up to the Zenith box out there...


... and my jaw dropped. The cheapie loop and amp OUTPERFORMS the Philips PHDTV3 Silver Sensor we were using in the living room.


I can't believe it.


Not to hugely dis the Silver Sensor. It works great. It's just the bottom-dollar antenna and cheapie-amp in tandem work slightly better.


Of course, they and the Silver Sensor only work that beautifully in the living room, where we didn't really need to boost anything.


Now I'm thinking, take back the PHDTV3 and try the UFO in the bedroom... different room, different ball o' wax.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *golinux* /forum/post/14175828
> 
> 
> It pretty much bombed here. Signal strength much lower than the DB2 and it broke up a lot. Back to the store.
> 
> 
> Now that I got the Zenith DTT 901, I'm not getting any breakups with the amped DB2. I'm soooo happy! All I'm missing (possibly) is a DTVPal (for the timer).



Sorry and glad to hear that golinux. Thanks for the help with the Web Optimization!




Added Digital Dude Video to the front page. The RE & Loop section needs to be re-written badly. I shall endevour to do that.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

LOL!



Ill add a pic of the remote with the RS UFO tommorrow. Meanwhile here is another review of the RS UFO with nice pics. Ill check on the directionality of the UFO also.....it seemed directional to me....dont know what this fellow is on about.

Review: Radioshack 15-1892: Indoor Antenna w/ RF Remote from the Missing Remote


----------



## rezzy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14176948
> 
> 
> I tried this out but ended up setting all my channels to high gain for no particular reason other than "let's go full blast...Warp Speed!"



...._and_ in case of extreme emergency, ship and saucer independently separate....


----------



## rdn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14138923
> 
> 
> Tested 3 units quickly tonight. RCA ANT1500, RS DA-5200, Philips MANT940
> 
> 
> 
> Philips MANT940's mounting system while a bit more complicated than the RS DA-5200 (3 pieces not including the antenna box) is versatile and very usable, however it didnt have the heft or simplicity of the RS DA-5200 unit, and it is all plasticky plastic. It came with the longest run of coax, and good instruction booklet, pretty good accessory kit like the RS 5200. Its amplifier was not as strong, or perhaps just a good bit more noisy(probably both) as the RS unit's amp, and instead of having 2 threaded inputs for coax to the antenna and the tuner/tv, it had one for incoming from the antenna, but a 4" coax lead out to the tuner/tv.....not an ideal situation similar to the attached cable of the RCA ANT1500....especially since you want to mount the amp towards the antenna, not the tv/tuner. Its performance was non existent without an amplifier(23 mile PBS station), and with its amplifier, it came in second above the unamped RCA unit for digital picking up a couple of 45 mile stations, but came in third for analog UHF with really dismal analog UHF performance compared to the other 2.
> 
> 
> I hooked up the Philips amplifier to the RS DA-5200 and it bettered the Philips MANT940 with same amplifier, leading me to the conclusion that the RS DA-5200 unit has a better antenna box, too.



I haven't actually taken it apart to look, but I think that the device with the short coax lead is a power inserter, not the amplifier itself. I'm pretty sure the amp is inside the antenna assembly. It looks very similar to the power inserter I have for a standalone RS amplifier. This is located near the receiver and the DC voltage is fed through the coax to the amp.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hmmmm......there is a distinct probability that you are correct. That would explain why the RS DA-5200 did better hooked up to it than the Philips, and why the "amped" versions of the Single Bow Tie and Delta didnt do much.


I shall edit and add comments to that post and the front page. I shall also look to get an amplifier to use in my testing.


Thanks for the input rdh.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Terk TV-55 review found on the Net. I got a low level encryption warning on that page, so Ive duplicated the entire review here, just in case.




> Quote:
> Product Review (December 2002)
> 
> Terk TV55 VHF/UHF/Digital Terrestrial Antenna System
> 
> 
> When I was growing up, everyone in my neighborhood had an old-fashioned antenna on their roof. There were no exceptions. Then suddenly cable television took over and the rooftop antennas slowly began to disappear. After all, who needs to receive local channels over the air when you have local broadcasts on both cable and satellite? Well today, if you want to watch local high-definition television in your area, you'll need a good old-fashion antennas or an innovative high-tech design like the one offered by Terk Technologies. The latest Terk TV55 is a compact VHF/UHF antenna capable of receiving analog and the latest standard and high-definition digital programming. Here in Los Angeles we have practically every major station broadcasting digitally and many of those stations are in high-definition during primetime. The TV55 has an operational bandwidth of 54MHz to 806MHz and covers the full spectrum of the conventional antennas found on roofs decades ago. An inline amplifier has a gain of 10dB for weak signals and a bypass mode for the stronger signals.
> 
> 
> The TV55 has a durable silicone-sealed weatherproof housing suitable for either indoor or outdoor installations. The design of this antenna is quite unique with an oval cross section and round ends. The unit's length is almost 4 feet and comes with a large assortment of accessories. Both wall and window ledge mounting hardware is included as well as mast hardware (mast not included) for mounting on a 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 diameter mast. The helical coils used inside of the TV55 allow for a more compact design by using wire winding to simulate a larger antenna.
> 
> 
> Performance
> 
> Our location has a good line-of-sight to Mount Wilson where most of the transmission towers are located in the Los Angeles area. We just happen to be elevated above the clutter of homes between us and the transmitting stations. We mounted the TV55 horizontally, facing the location of the towers. We tried to set the height to be similar to an attic installation just above the lower roof-line. The results were interesting and surprisingly good for the Terk TV55.
> 
> 
> The comparison chart show the TV55 amplified and unamplified. We used a Sencore SL754D Signal Level Meter to take readings of all of the usable channels here in Los Angeles. Based on readings from our meter, hum increased significantly when using the amplifier assembly in the video path. This may have been due to the power adapter that plugs into the wall. We were still able to pull a strong signal from the antenna without the amplifier installed and preferred this configuration for our setup. We found that all digital channels worked perfectly with the TV55 and we saw no dropouts from our location. Analog channels appeared to be strong, but did require some fine tuning to get an optimal signal. Ideally, the TV55 would benefit from a rotor to pinpoint the position of the unit.
> 
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> Negotiating a large antenna can be cumbersome, especially if you are mounting it in the attic. Terk offers an alternative to the conventional large antenna design with their TV55. The performance we measured with this unit was amazingly good given its size. The physical design is simple and easy to install with a variety of mounting options. The weatherproof housing ensures long-term reliability by preventing moisture build-up and premature corrosion. The retail cost of the TV55 is just under $100 and provides comparable performance to the much larger conventional antennas that are similar in price. If you've been considering installing a new HDTV antenna and you have space limitations, the TV55 has the potential to provide you with a great signal for your new standard or high-definition receiver. The experience we had with this new antenna design far surpassed our expectations.
> 
> 
> - Kevin Nakano


----------



## EscapeVelocity

An Antenna is an Antenna, Right?


By Jim Burns • January, 2000


Home Theatre Magazine


Our DTV guru loads up three antennas and drives around Chicago to see how they behave.


Antennas are cool! Over-the-air analog- and digital-TV broadcast signals are the best-looking broadcast signals that I have going into my home theater system. Digital satellite can be good from time to time, but cable? Forget about it! The only problem with over-the-air signals is that the science of installing and picking antennas for good TV reception is all but lost. We haven't had any reason to put up antennas until digital TV came along, except for maybe the pure pleasure of telling your cable company to take a hike.


Terk HDTV60 VHF/UHF HDTV/DTV


Channel Master StealthTenna 3010 VHF/UHF HDTV/DTV


Channel Master Magnadyne Yagi UHF

http://www.hometheatermag.com/accessories/7/index2.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Alright folks. Fess up time. EV made some egregious errors. First of all, EV ELECTRIFIED the RS Delta, RS Single Bow Tie, Youtube Quad Bow Tie, and last but not least, the RCA ANT1500. Bob was right! Thanks Bob.


Furthermore, EV didnt get good contact with the balun in his First Attempt at making a Youtube Quad Bow Tie. I just figured this out when I inspected it a while ago. I re-did the balun and re adjusted all the bows and feedline, snugged everything up and it did much better when I tried it again.


Strangley, the ELECTRIFIED RCA ANT1500, really did seem to like being electrified....Im gonna let that one stand for now, until I get another amp.


I also really need to get out the Winegard SS-3000 and give it another run down. Its been awhile.



Here is the reworked performance rankings. Im also gonna put bolded edits at the bottom of the RCA ANT1500, Philips MANT940, and RS DA-5200 tri-review and rework the front page on the MANT940.


Please forgive my ignorance, incompetence and stupidity.



Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 "electrified"

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

DB2 unamped indoors

Classic Single Bow Tie

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000
*My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped*

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

RCA ANT1500

Philips MANT 510

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14180589
> 
> 
> Alright folks. Fess up time. EV made some eggregrious errors. Please forgive my ignorance, incompetence and stupidity.



Don't beat yourself up! It's a learning experience. I applaud your candor in admitting your mistakes. Big surprise, you're human.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Terk HDTVa
*


This is a very nice looking unit. Great fit and finish, build quality. This one is weightier in the base than I imagined. It comes with a wall wart for power. The 6ft coax cable looks to be permanently attached. It comes in the box in 2 pieces, the base and the antenna section. Its a simple matter of inserting the antenna into the base and you are all set. VHF rabbit ear dipoles are attached to the base and they are adjustable, but limited in there motion somewhat by the base itself.


The performance on this was pretty good. It picked up most of my 45 mile Charleston tower cluster stations, the 3 weakest with heavy dropouts, but I only messed around with positioning a short time, only on the Oppo DVD player. I didnt make it to the North window. And it picked up the PBS alternate station 23 miles while pointing at Charleston but found that I needed to move it somewhat to lock it in....so it is pretty directional. My tree situation may be affecting this ones performance negatively, because of its high directionality. Ill try this one again tonight and see how it goes.


Very Nice.



Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 "electrified"

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

DB2 unamped indoors

Classic Single Bow Tie
*Terk HDTVa*

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

RCA ANT1500

Philips MANT 510

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/14180646
> 
> 
> I know these are 'old school' but they work very well. If you are really close to the transmitters, they will also work on VHF-Hi (7-13), too (at least they did for me).



Old school is not always bad. I've always been of the opinion that newer technology isn't necessarily better, it just costs more. Oh great, now I sound like a Suave commercial!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks Rick.


ny4qt, those are some nice RS Double Bows!


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14180589
> 
> 
> Alright folks. Fess up time. EV made some eggregrious errors....



EV: Thank you very much for reporting your experiences with various indoor antennas and offering intelligent comparisons. Very, very few others have taken the time to make these comparisons. You are an intelligent human being who is keenly interested in high-performance home video, and your stories about various antennas are quite worthwhile.


Abundant thanks to you for your efforts.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That seems a little overboard for somebody who apparently cant spell egregious correctly, seatac.










But I aprreciate the sentiment.


Im still looking forward to some reviews from you, if/when you have the time.


One more note, when I re-did the balun on the Youtube Quad, I changed it out for an outdoor Genesis balun I picked up at True Value, I think its a bit better than the indoor one that came with the MANT510.....also I used a 12ft coax cable, others units have mostly been 6ft when tested, unless there was a power injector involved.


The Youtube is a pretty darn good antenna. I still plan on making an upgraded version with 10 or 12 gauge copper romex, larger bows and wider spacing between them.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Winegard SS-3000*



OK, I broke out the Winegard SS-3000, and its getting an upgrade from its current position, I had it pretty close though. That run through there is pretty tight. These units have an integrated amplifier. I set this one up on the window ledge in the center of the North corner window, for this test. Another note, this unit has thin coax, like the RCA ANT108, for one leg of the run, and a power injector, like the Philips MANT940 and RS DA-5200.


Everything from the RS 1880 down to the Youtube is pretty tight, and many have there own unique characteristics, such as beam width. And the HDTVa's heavy directionality may be hurting it in my tree infested location.


However, I must state that I have an RS 1880 on the other side of the house, under the giant oak tree and giant tin reflector roof pointed South! out of the windows and Im getting decent reception, but not really satisfactory. Maybe Ill try some other units out there.



Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 "electrified"

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

DB2 unamped indoors

Classic Single Bow Tie
*Winegard SS-3000*

Terk HDTVa

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

RCA ANT1500

Philips MANT 510

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


----------



## fajitamosaic

EV, you're a crack dealer and you don't even know it. Yeah, on a whim, and with my girlfriend totally giving me the stink-eye, I brought home an 15-1892 from Radio Shack. She's about ready to stab me for how often we've bought and exchanged antennas. She doesn't understand my new addiction. She also doesn't understand that FOX Saturday Baseball was on this afternoon in hi-def.


Anyway, haven't done much with it except set it up on a bookshelf in our bedroom away from the window. It isn't pulling in any new channels, but every channel we were getting went from 2-3 bars to 4-6 bars on the DTB-H260F's signal indicator. Definitely seems to be very directional, but the internal rotation mechanism makes that comfy to deal with.


Honestly, the size isn't a problem. It's really not THAT big. Well, not if you've dealt with a silver sensor or a loop attached to an external amp *grin*


When my g/f starts talking to me again, I'll pick up 20-some-odd feet of coax and see how it performs closer to the window (and away from a computer and a stack of game consoles).


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fajitamosaic* /forum/post/14177538
> 
> 
> The cheapie loop and amp OUTPERFORMS the Philips PHDTV3 Silver Sensor we were using in the living room.
> 
> 
> I can't believe it.
> 
> 
> Not to hugely dis the Silver Sensor. It works great. It's just the bottom-dollar antenna and cheapie-amp in tandem work slightly better.



Now try the Silver Sensor with the amp. I'll bet you find it outperforms the UHF loop on the other one.


By the way, if anyone's looking for a decent amp to try these with, Ace Hardware sells a generic 24dB one with adjustable gain that's not too noisy. I've used one with my Silver Sensor in the past, and the combo was great.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

:thumbsup


PS - You dont end up in the Radio Shack with The Starship Enterprise under your arm on a whim. No wonder you got the stink eye. LOL!


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14179447
> 
> 
> An Antenna is an Antenna, Right?
> 
> 
> By Jim Burns • January, 2000
> 
> 
> Home Theatre Magazine
> 
> 
> Our DTV guru loads up three antennas and drives around Chicago to see how they behave.
> 
> 
> Antennas are cool! Over-the-air analog- and digital-TV broadcast signals are the best-looking broadcast signals that I have going into my home theater system. Digital satellite can be good from time to time, but cable? Forget about it! The only problem with over-the-air signals is that the science of installing and picking antennas for good TV reception is all but lost. We haven't had any reason to put up antennas until digital TV came along, except for maybe the pure pleasure of telling your cable company to take a hike.
> 
> 
> Terk HDTV60 VHF/UHF HDTV/DTV
> 
> 
> Channel Master StealthTenna 3010 VHF/UHF HDTV/DTV
> 
> 
> Channel Master Magnadyne Yagi UHF
> 
> http://www.hometheatermag.com/accessories/7/index2.html



Yeah, the StealthTenna performed very good in that review I remember. I read it when it first came out. I actually bought one after reading that, and it worked great for me at 41 miles out paired with a CM-7777. Didn't keep it, though. Got digital channel 3 for me, but was still having occasional minor audio droputs in the wind. I think I had over 10 feet on the mast above the roofline (and u-bolt) without any guy wires, so that was to be expected, since it gets pretty windy up here.


But it's analog VHF performance shocked me, it was so good. VHF-Lo had a few sparkles floating around, but VHF-Hi on up with both analog and digital could not have been stronger and clearer.


Didn't work nearly as good for me indoors, though. Had to get it out in the open and up in the air a little (I'm only 1 floor here).


If you're going to move up to larger, mainly outdoor models like that, you may as well try the Winegard Square Shooter, too. many people use them indoors, and they've always gotten pretty decent reviews. I'd suggest the unamped SS-1000 with and without one of your added amps (I think the amp in the SS-2000 is only about 15dB).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Doesnt the SS-2000 come with a Winegard 269 amplifier?


Thanks for the info on the StealthTenna performance. VHF Hi, hmmmm....


----------



## Rammitinski

You might be right about that. Do you remember the power rating?


(Yes, the Stealth would be a decent choice for a lot of people not needing anything lower than VHF-Hi. But it does have a bit of a wind load. It's not what I'd call heavy, but it's probably not as light as it might look.)


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14180890
> 
> 
> EV: Thank you very much for reporting your experiences with various indoor antennas and offering intelligent comparisons. Very, very few others have taken the time to make these comparisons. You are an intelligent human being who is keenly interested in high-performance home video, and your stories about various antennas are quite worthwhile.
> 
> 
> Abundant thanks to you for your efforts.



I second that! Good job, EV!


And I wanted to tell you that the optimized photos are making a huge difference here. Thanks for doing that.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Pics added Winegard SS-3000, Terk HDTVa, RS 1892 UFO with Remote. You can see the Winegard SS-3000 is kinda dusty.


Add here is one of the Draper Luma 92" projector screen.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/14181350
> 
> 
> You might be right about that. Do you remember the power rating?



I think its 12 or 13 db, but very clean.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im gonna leave the Terk HDTVa right where it is. Its doing and admirable job, and did better with dropouts tonight after the wind died down. Still having trouble locking onto my 2 weakest signals from Charleston at 45 miles.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a pic of the legendary RS 15-1880 and a close up of the back.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Reworked the RE & Loop section on the front page, comments added/edited. Moved RCA ANT1020 and Channel Master 4030 from The Dugout to the RE & Loop section. Edited Table of Contents. Edited review of the Philips MANT940 and the MANT940 front page. Again sorry for the confusion.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14182625
> 
> 
> Reworked the RE & Loop section on the front page, comments added/edited. Moved RCA ANT1020 and Channel Master 4030 from The Dugout to the RE & Loop section. Edited Contents.



EV: your updates on the front page are very informative. I wish more publications would critically evaluate the performance of indoor antennas, which are bound to make a difference in this age of OTA DTV.


I'm particularly intrigued at the indication that a Channel Master 4221 could be used quite successfully indoors inside the cardboard shipping box. My prior experience was very good using this antenna indoors in my location, but the size made it ungainly to move and place inside my condominium. The idea that it could actually be used inside the cardboard box is intriguing. It's one of the few decent outdoor antennas readily available at a local retail outlet (McLendon Hardware sells it for a reasonable $25), not needing to be bought from an online vendor.


----------



## wblynch

First 'experiments' with 2 RS bowties gave mixed results.


I mounted the 2 bowties on one ear of a rabbit ears. I actually got my best results mounting 1 bowtie on each ear and spreading them out.


I'm 50+ miles out with a pretty clear line of sight to the towers.


I think a more scientific approach would give better results but in the end, I couldn't match the Philips Silver Sensor.


I'll try an upstairs TV next but it ain't looking good plus the setup looks a little sloppy.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I picked that tip up in a thread on avsforum. Perhaps one you were actually involved in, I cant remember where to find it, so I cant credit its originator.


Bummer wblynch.


----------



## seatacboy

The Antiference-designed Silver Sensor, licensed for manufacture and distribution in the USA to Philips and Zenith, is one of the most directional and specialized indoor antenna designs. It can require a lot of patience. For some users, it is the best possible indoor antenna, while for others it is frustrating.


Does anyone who has a lot of experience with the Silver Sensor care to offer some detailed evaluation points and answers to frequently asked questions?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ive got one on order. Ill review it when it comes in and probably rework the front page comments afterwards.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Note to self, need to look at and possibly expand/edit comments on CM4220, RS UFO, Terk HDTVa and Winegard SS-3000 on front page.


----------



## Roger Lococco

my experiences with amplified antennas here in NYC may be interesting:

most rabbit ear and loop antennas don't work at all, except for one or two very strong stations such as WABC.

The RS single bowtie works ok, but constantly adjusting it was a p.i.t.a.

the RS 1892 (UFO) didn't work very well, one was dead on arrival right out of the box, the second was very mediocre. The 15-1880 was terrible as well.

the Mant 510 was awful.

Terk HDTVa is a piece of junk, could only receive one station.

Silver Sensor is fantastic, but has no vhf, will need vhf capability when 7,11, and 13 return to vhf in 2009.

although I agree the Philips PHDTV3 is a piece of junk ( the way the rods fit into the back is off kilter and bumps into the main "triangle") it actually works quite well in my particular location, and in general is a better performer than the original Silver Sensor with a cheap RS 10db amp.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That is very interesting Roger. Ill try to analyze that later. It just goes to show you that antennas can be very tricky. Visiting the local reception threads and asking others that are nearby what has worked for them is a good way to key in on a good antenna for your particular situatioin.


You can get rabbit ears and a VHF/UHF signal combiner to use along with your amped PHDTV3 Silver Sensor, come Feb09, perhaps.




Edited/added comments on Winegard SS-3000 and CM422o on front page. Need to address RCA ANT1500 with more testing, Terk HDTVa, and RS UFO on front page still.


----------



## allargon

Okay, no one mentioned this one yet? (This is a very inexpensive picture frame antenna--the RS 150-1866)

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family 


At $15, I'll test it out myself vs the (unamplified) TERK HDTVi, the Philips Mant 510 and that RCA pair of loop rabbit ears on the front page if my local Radio Shacks have one in stock.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That sounds great allargon.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ive noticed that the Terk HDTVa is really touchy and sensitive to placement. Also, if I tip the front section upwards a little towards the gap in the trees toward the Charleston towers it does a little better.


Iv noticed that windy conditions and trees seem to be limiting the effectiveness of all 3 outdoor antennas on the roof. The DB2, CM4220, and Winegard 4400 all have dropouts associated with wind. However the Winegard seems to have the most gain, bringing in stronger signals on my 2 weakest Charleston stations, however, not enough to overcome breezy to windy conditions...this isnt a function of gain but rather signal direction stability, the leaves and branches scattering the signal about. The CM4220 similarly has more gain on my weakest Charleston stations, than the DB2, but it cant overcome breezy to windy conditions.


The directionality of the Terk HDTVa is not helpful for this situation, but may provide more gain where trees are not a problem than some other antennas, as well as where stable multipath is a problem. Similar to the highly directional high gain xg91 that I replaced with the DB2.


I think Im gonna choose the Channel Master 4220 for the final roof install....for the following reasons.


Its smaller than the Winegard 4400.

Its tougher than the 4400, steel instead of aluminum, and thicker steel where applicable. Nice powder coated galvanized steel reflector.

Its has larger bows than the DB2....although I really like the thick 4mm aluminum bows on the DB2.

Its seems to have slightly more gain that the DB2, especially handy on my 2 weakest channels.

It has dual mounting brackets instead of just one....this is really a minor consideration as the DB2 did just fine.


Additionally, I tried the Winegard 4400 without the Channel Master 7777 amplifier, and it just wasnt doing the trick, though it was better than many of the indoor antennas Ive tried.


Im thinking of trying some indoor antennas, sitting on top of the chimney attached to the CM Titan 7777 amplifier where applicable and with the 50ft run of quad shield copper on steel RG6. Just to see how they do.


----------



## fajitamosaic

Roger: I have heard all sorts of horror stories with digital reception in the NYC area. You guys are in multi-path hell it sounds like (skyscrapers, lots of buildings, tons of stations broadcasting).


EV: I bought a 25-foot length of quad shield coax from the rat shack today. Moved the 15-1892 UFO closer to the window and about 1 foot higher. Excellent results. Getting 6-8 bars on the signal meter across the board now. Was getting 4-6. Couldn't get WKAR PBS's 4 channels with it deeper inside the room. Now getting WKAR with 4-5 signal strength since relocating the antenna closer to the window. Best of all, I only needed to setup one alternate position setting for the FOX affiliate's signal.


Hands down, these are the strongest signals I've managed to pull in with any of the antenna combos I've tried in that room. I'm done buying antennas. The "starship Enterprise" is the winner in my lowly basement apartment.


... and I've come to learn that if we simply lived one floor higher, we probably wouldn't have had any hassles. Height sure is important.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Sounds Great! :thumbsup


I suppose you signal meter goes from 0-10? Does 6-8 lock in your channels without dropouts?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is my TVfool info for digital channels. 36 WMMP (real channel 35) is my toughest station and its not showing on the digital list for some reason.


----------



## fajitamosaic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14185451
> 
> 
> I suppose you signal meter goes from 0-10? Does 6-8 lock in your channels without dropouts?



Yeah, the meter on the Samsung DTB-H260F shows 10 bars much like a lengthened cell phone style indicator. In general, 5 bars seems to be the point at which I get no dropouts (4 is tolerable tho). So, 6-8 is a huge leap in stability compared to 4-6.


The Zenith DTT901 we have in the living room uses a horizontal bar that fills to show you signal strength. It grows in finer increments than the Samsung's meter does, which makes it easier to see how much a signal is improving.


At some point I may try the UFO with the Zenith, but I already know what'll happen: The Zenith has a more sensitive 6th-gen tuner AND the window ledge out in the living room is bigger, giving us the freedom to place it right next to the glass. Reception will be MUCH stronger than it is in the bedroom. That's why I've got the amplified rabbit ears out there and the UFO in the bedroom










I will say, I know with these boxes it's apples to orange with regards to tuners and signal meters, but the Zenith coupon-eligible box almost makes grabbing and measuring relative signal strength a fun endeavor. Even when I can't pull in distant or low powered stations like WHTV and WNEM, the signal indicator on the Zenith still shows about 30%... a nice reminder of "Hey, there's a signal there!"


Edit: Wow, your TV Fool info is a nightmare. I'm 15-20 miles from most stations. You're 20, 30, 40, and 60! You must live out in the styx for some of these smaller antennas to work. Even in our less-traveled part of the city, we've got plenty of noise and buildings to contend with.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I can pick up WSAV channel 3.1 (real channel 39) Savannah GA sometimes, its the most powerful singal coming from Savannah. And I like to use Channel 11 analog(real channel 11) to check for analog VHF Hi performance.


Its flatland around here. Also the towers at Charleston as the crow fly's crosses a water body, the ocean for about 25 miles....however this is a mixed blessing, the instability of the air along the shore isnt good for broadcast signals. My real problems are the local yard trees, though.


----------



## ed_in_tx

Off topic.. sorry.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

ed in tx: This is the indoor antenna thread....you would do better creating your own thread. Some really experienced smart folks like affigat will help sort you out. They dont visit too much in this thread.


mosaic: Did you mess with the gain levels at all on the RS UFO? Could you tell a difference between low and high?


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14185650
> 
> 
> Here is my TVfool info for digital channels.



EV: your reception environment might actually be more difficult than mine in terms of hilly terrain. Which of the stations on the TV Fool chart are you able to regularly pull in with your favorite indoor antennas, and which are "iffy"?


Here is my TV Fool info for digital channels: http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/7...getdigital.php


----------



## EscapeVelocity

This is what Im shooting for and the strength and stability of the signal/video image on my Vizio GV42LF.



PBS 16 WJWJ alternate PBS from Beaufort SC with 2 sub channels...this one is about as shaky as the other PBS because I catch this one off the backside of the roof mounted antnenna, this is easiest to catch for aimed indoor antennas.


ABC 2 WCBD this has one sub channel...a CW affiliate

Fox 24 WTAT

PBS 7 WITV

CBS 5 WCSC

NBC 4 WCIV

MyTV 36 WMMP This one I sometimes lose for periods of time altogether, even from the roof. I think I get co-channel interference from a high powered Savannah GA station as well as the broadcast power being low. Its on real channel 35 and 4 WCIV is on real channel 34, they may be interfering with each other too....as well as being lowest on the UHF dial, for antennas that often have their gain curves peak much higher.



The bottom 2 are the toughest. But 36 is clearly THE toughest. Also 5 seems to be the next one to go, usually.


----------



## ed_in_tx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14186376
> 
> 
> ed in tx: This is the indoor antenna thread....you would do better creating your own thread.




Sorry I did a search for "best outdoor antenna" and I somehow came to this thread, and I didn't notice the "indoor" part.


----------



## allargon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ed_in_tx* /forum/post/14186584
> 
> 
> Sorry I did a search for "best outdoor antenna" and I somehow came to this thread, and I didn't notice the "indoor" part.



Ed, the guys in the other antenna thread will accommodate you.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623


----------



## EscapeVelocity

No worries ed. No hard feelings. Its just we dont have the experience or knowledge base in this thread to sort you out.


----------



## fajitamosaic

EV: I have it set to 3. Gain set to 1 cuts the signal strength in half. Haven't noticed any difference between 2 and 3, so I figure "warp factor five, Mr. Sulu."


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks mosaic. Im skeptical of gain adjustments on many Amplified RE&Loops. But that seems to indicate that it is working as advertised.




Some other channels I use in my testing.


Ch. 11 Savanah analog for VHF Hi.

Ch. 3 Savannah analog for VHF Lo.

Ch. 42 Jacksonville


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Sorry everybody, this post is just too good not to post here. Its information about materials for building your own bowtie antenna.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whitis* /forum/post/14133492
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity
> 
> 
> What is the best material to use for the Bow Ties (Whiskers). Bronze, Brass, Copper, Aluminum, Steel? Do the electrical and magnetic properties of the metal play a key role?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Typical outdoor antenna construction is aluminum elements and stainless hardware. Sometimes stainless elements are used.
> 
> 
> I am thinking of using 316 stainless steel welding rod which comes in 36" straight lengths from welding supply stores (a store that actually sells bottles of gas not just a hardware store with a few welders). Combine that with stainless hardware to eliminate galvanic corrosion.
> 
> 
> Mechanically, you want resistance to bending. The elements are pretty short.
> 
> 
> Electrically, you want good conductivity, particularly on the surface since due to skin effect that is the part that will be used. Some antennas use plated steel wires.
> 
> 
> Chemically, you want to avoid dissimilar metals and use metals which are resistant to corrosion. Stainless is better than galvanized which is better than zinc plated.
> 
> 
> Aluminum is a good conductor but aluminum wire tends to be fairly weak, it develops an oxide layer that is hard to connect to, it is difficult to solder to because of the oxide, and it is hard to match it to hardware in terms of galvanic corrosion and thermal expansion. But aluminum tubing is very often used for antennas but requires a protective coating where it meets hardware.
> 
> 
> 
> Wood can be baked at 200 degrees F to dry it. And in the old days was boiled in parraffin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> All wood used in outdoor installations should be
> 
> protected from the weather with varnish or paint. A good
> 
> grade of marine spar varnish or polyurethane varnish will
> 
> offer protection for years in mild climates, and one or more
> 
> seasons in harsh climates. Epoxy-based paints also offer good
> 
> protection. -- ARRL Antenna Handbook
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> ReHDPE (Recycled HDPE (polyethelyne)) lumber is good stuff, machines nicely, and is designed for outdoor use (UV inhibitors), and should last for decades. Get the good stuff online
> 
> online, not the sawdust filled variety (Trex) at hardware stores that absorbs 4.3% moisture vs 0.06% moisture. Wood can absorb up to 25% water.
> http://www.teksupply.com/farm/suppli...rials;pg104577
> http://epsplasticlumber.com/lumberpricing.shtml
> 
> teksupply will sell you a 3.5' piece of 2x4 for $10 and they have a 50 year warranty. I have worked with some of that. They also sell stainless steel fasteners, galvanized mesh (but only in >$100 rolls), quick clamp (kee clamp) set screw pipe fittings,
> 
> 
> ]For the structure, I thought about building a box truss (minus the diagonals) out of 1/2" PVC pipe and T fittings for lower wind load than using ReHDPE lumber. UV resistance is a concern with the standard plubbing pipe, though pipe and fittings are available (at much higher cost) with UV inhibitors from greenhouse supply companies.
> 
> 
> For the mesh, the stuff you are likely to get in hardware stores is galvanized steel and costs about $0.50 per square foot. To get stainless steel mesh, you will probably have to order online at a cost of around
> $6.25 per square foot with a $75 minimum order (about enough for two antennas depending on size). Rust on the mesh is more of a cosmetic issue and an avian issue since you aren't trying to attach wires to it.
> 
> 
> Lead (solder) and zinc (galvanizing, zinc plating, paint) are toxic to birds. This is why bird cages aren't made out of galvanized wire. Wild birds may be less likely to chew on your antenna than domestic ones and do so less often. Hot dipped (typical hardware cloth) is worse than electroplated. The zinc itself rusts, while protecting the steel, making a powder that comes off easily on your hands or a birds beak. http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww14eii.htm
> 
> 
> Using quality materials you can spend as much as a commercial antenna.
> 
> You can buy a winegard PR-8800 for $43, a channel master 4228 for $60, or an Antennacraft Super G1483 hoverman that claims to outperform 8-bays at
> Summit Source . It is possible to outperform a commercial antenna. Many are designed to support obsolete channels and they are designed for mass production and to fit in boxes.
> 
> 
> Ballpark estimates:
> 
> - Plastic lumber: $10
> 
> - Stainless mesh: $45 (need two to meet minimum order)
> 
> - Stainless antenna elements and feedline: $2?
> 
> - Stainless hardware: $8
> 
> So, you are looking at $65 in parts (qty 2) for a quality homebrew outdoor antenna. You can shave a lot off this by using inferior material, but you may find yourself climbing a ladder to repair, replace, or repaint your antenna. Cutting corners on the mesh, by using galvanized, saves the most money and impacts performance and lifetime the least and lowers the cost to around $25 (not counting shipping).
> 
> 
> Set screw pipe fittings (Kee Klamp, Quik Klamp, etc.) can be used to construct antennas, antenna masts and support structures, and to provide more adjustability. Most antenna mast systems don't allow you to adjust elevation angle. These pipe fittings are available in aluminum or galvanized steel. Survived one year immersed in salt water (plus Hurricane Katrina) . An erector set for grownups.
Click to expand...

 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post14133492


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Edited/added comments to RS UFO and Terk HDTVa and Picture Frame antenna on front page. Added Winegard MS-2000 MetroStar to The Dugout.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Comparative review of several antennas including the GE Optima, RS 1838, and RS Double Bow.

UHF Reception Links and Tips
 


Review of the RS Double Bow Tie

My Search is Over!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Terk TV-5, Silver Sensor, and Terk TV-1 came in today.



I noticed my TV Fool info is also missing 24 (real channel 40), is missing as well. Im in a low depressioin, but this is flatland. Ill post the info for just the zip code to show the stations and the difference.


Fascinating, it seems that WTAT 24 Fox and WMMP 36 MyTV may have moved to a new tower. I dont recall them being located in different directions at a different distance, now 27 miles. That may account for why WTAT is now one of my strongest stations and 36 is floundering(it always was floundering really.)


edit: Ah, here is part of the clue....


> Quote:
> TVFools new 6/27/2008 update----300ohm


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Philips Silver Sensor
*











Fit is terrible on this wobbly unit. It comes in 3 sections plus a coax cable of thinish construction. The base and arm snapped into place firmly but the arm and antenna elements didnt and were loose-ish. Furthermore, the arm had lateral sway when any amount of pressure was applied. And the fins are easily bent, though they bounce back into place. This unit is very lightweight. Perhaps this unit could be improved with some clay or silicon caulking in the right places. The fin pattern is a bit different on this one than the Terk HDTVa. The SS performed on par with the Terk HDTVa, including its finickyness and fussyness. Geez, its getting hard to place antennas on this list. I almost want to move the CM4220 and the Youtube above the Terk HDTVa and Silver Sensor, because of their fussyness.


Pics coming soon.


Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 "electrified"

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

DB2 unamped indoors

Classic Single Bow Tie

Winegard SS-3000

Terk HDTVa
*Philips Silver Sensor*

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

RCA ANT1500

Philips MANT 510

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Twin Lead FM Dipole - Radio Shack









*

Tried this one out for the heck of it. Attached the indoor matching transformer/balun that came with the MANT510. Tacked it up in the North facing window. Brought in my 2 strongest digital channels...with minor to moderate dropouts. That is all. It seemed to be on the verge of bringing in a couple of more stations, which showed video resolution data on the channel info bar.


And Im moving the Terk HDTVa and the Silver Sensor a bit, these just required too much attentiveness and adjustment to get all of the channels. The fixed Youtube was picking up my 3 strongest stations just laying on the couch. Im even tempted to put the RCA ANT108 above them. However, these antennas are highly directional and that is their special play, which makes them very useful for those with stable multi-path, like in big cities. So you really have to dig deeper than just glancing at the rankings.



Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 "electrified"

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

DB2 unamped indoors

Classic Single Bow Tie

Winegard SS-3000

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped
*Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor*

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

RCA ANT1500

Philips MANT 510

Jensen TV-931
*RS FM Dipole*

RS 1870


----------



## EscapeVelocity

RS 1170 amplifier on the way.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 



> Quote:
> HDTVprimer lists specs as and comments...
> 
> 
> Gain 12db
> 
> Noise 6db
> 
> 
> The 15-1170 is modest but problem free. It is a good 2nd amp in a very long cable.


----------



## dattier

EV,


Have you received any reports about (what I'll call for ignorance of a better term) stick antennas, such as the Philips MANT950 or the RCA ANT806?


Right now my ANT806 is working OK indoors, but I'm sure it would do better outdoors, if I had the means and skill to mount it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I havent gotten to them yet, I will.


Im gonna return some antennas and select quite a few to keep, for hopefully an instrument measured shoot out.


Ill probably pick up all 3 stick antennas and keep the best one for the shoot out.




Edit: Thinking about adding link and reference to the local threads in the introduction on front page....perhaps combined with the trial and error commentary on how to pick an antenna that is perfect for "you."


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Alright, I got out the CM4220, DB2, Single Bow Tie, and Youtube all on the same 12 foot coax, and back to back within minutes. And the CM4220 and DB2 were virtually tied, with the nod going ot the CM4220, and the Single Bow Tie coming in 3 but with respectable performance, followed closely by the Youtube. These were tested in the middle of the North facing corner window. In addition the Winegard SS-3000 got a bump above the Single Bow Tie. Additionally I tested the RS DA-5200, and it stands just slightly above the Double Bows, with it I used 2 6ft coax cables and the power injector. Also it and all of the units in this little mini test picked up my alternate PBS station 23 miles on the backside without adjustment. Here are the adjusted rankings.


Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 "electrified"
*RS DA-5200*

RS 15-1892 UFO
*Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped*

Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

RCA ANT1500

Philips MANT 510

Jensen TV-931

RS FM Dipole

RS 1870


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Terk TV-5*




















The Terk TV-5 is really cool looking. It is low profile, and the fit and finish were very good. Its got an Aux input and a side mounted switch to choose between them with an LED indicator. This is right next to the power on and off switch also with an LED indicator light.


It came in the box in 3 pieces the 2 rectangular "loops" and the base. Plus 6 foot detachable coax cable with nice "push on" fitting. Assembly was very easy...you just screw off the top cap and slide the "loops" into place and screw the cap back on. Its rectangular "loops" were much larger than I expected.


Performance really stunk....until I realized there was a sliding amplifier gain adjustment on the side of this thing.


Then it performed decently. Not quite as good as the RS Delta. I did try it on its side. It didnt seem to help at all. I pulled in my 3 strongest stations at my difficult location. This thing has 9" side squares (11" on the diagnol) "loops," that sit sideways and spin around its axis with a light touch. Its about 26" across, so its not small, but it is low profile. It seemed to like being either perpendicular to the tower or pointed at it longways.


Interesting design atenna.


PS-I tested the MANT510 again and its getting an upgrade. Review coming.




Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 "electrified"

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

RCA ANT1500
*Terk TV-5*

Philips MANT 510

Jensen TV-931

RS FM Dipole

RS 1870


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Lococco* /forum/post/14184122
> 
> 
> my experiences with amplified antennas here in NYC may be interesting:
> 
> most rabbit ear and loop antennas don't work at all, except for one or two very strong stations such as WABC.
> 
> The RS single bowtie works ok, but constantly adjusting it was a p.i.t.a.
> 
> the RS 1892 (UFO) didn't work very well, one was dead on arrival right out of the box, the second was very mediocre. The 15-1880 was terrible as well.
> 
> the Mant 510 was awful.
> 
> Terk HDTVa is a piece of junk, could only receive one station.
> 
> Silver Sensor is fantastic, but has no vhf, will need vhf capability when 7,11, and 13 return to vhf in 2009.
> 
> although I agree the Philips PHDTV3 is a piece of junk ( the way the rods fit into the back is off kilter and bumps into the main "triangle") it actually works quite well in my particular location, and in general is a better performer than the original Silver Sensor with a cheap RS 10db amp.



I think that you were overloading your tuner with all of the amped units. And the directionality of the Silver Sensor is very useful for big city mulit-path and interference rejection, and gives you good gain performance without an amplifier.


You may have success with the Terk HDTVi which has better fit and finish as well as VHF Rabbit Ear dipoles for VHF, as well, perhaps with a low power RS 1170 amplifier or even better a Winegard 269 amplifier.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Terk TV-1*











What comes in the box?


Rabbit Ear assembly with base, seperate UHF Loop, 300 ohm to 75 ohm matching transformer/balun, guid booklet.


I must say that I was a little disappointed with this unit. The loop is made to attach to an old TV which had 300ohm screw inputs on the TV itself. There is no way to join the loop with the Rabbit Ears, without additional hardware, like a splitter or combiner.


I didnt test the loop, its not quite as stout as the loop on the RCA ANT108.


So the RE's come with 300ohm twin lead hookups, but this unit does come with a matching transformer in the box. So I hooked up the transformer and then attached the RE's without the loop to the GV42LF.


And it performed similarly to the FM Dipole, being that these are basically an FM Dipole themselves with telescoping adjustments. It picked up my strongest 2 digital stations with minor dropouts, both UHF channels. Alternate PBS Ch. 16 and ABC Ch. 2 WCBD.


The build quality of the RE's is very good, and they have modern good looks. I think this would be a good choice for ganging with a better UHF antenna for there VHF Hi performance, similar to what Rick013 and golinux did.


They did beat the Terk TV-5 though...and they arent expensive. I paid $7. LOL!


Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 "electrified"

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

RCA ANT1500

Terk TV-5

Philips MANT 510
*Terk TV-1 without Loop*

RS FM Dipole

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Jensen TV-931*











This unit was also a disappointmnet. It struggled with my strongest station, and failed at everthing else. It was smaller than I imagined. Came with a wall wart and permanently attached thick coax cable that was shorter than 6ft. Its amplifier gain adjustment knob was located on the back of the unit and was rudimentary.


Not recommended. I just checked this one again with the RS 1870...I dug up.


Its been on the list for a while, but this makes it official.



Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 "electrified"

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

RCA ANT1500

Terk TV-5

Philips MANT 510

Terk TV-1 without Loop

RS FM Dipole
*Jensen TV-931*

RS 1870


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Radio Shack 15-1870*











This is a discontinued model that has automation similar to the RS UFO. But it doesnt have the performance, nor does its automation work so well..in fact its a hindrance. It has an elongated loop, that doesnt perform. I never really figured out how to operate the unit, other than by the left and right buttons, perhaps its missing its remote. Regardless, its performance is lacking and the power feature just makes it more of a pain to use.


Not recommended.


This ones been on the list for a while, but this makes it official. I checked this one and the Jensen TV-931 back to back just now.


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RCA ANT1500 "electrified"

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

RCA ANT1500

Terk TV-5

Philips MANT 510

Terk TV-1 without Loop

RS FM Dipole

Jensen TV-931
*RS 1870*



________________


----------



## EscapeVelocity

New Category added - The Dog House


Jensen TV-931 and RS 1870 added to The Dog House and removed from The Dug Out.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Contacted Channel Master about getting a CM 4040, we'll see.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14193682
> 
> *Terk TV-1*
> 
> I must say that I was a little disappointed with this unit. The loop is made to attach to an old TV which had 300ohm screw inputs on the TV itself. There is no way to join the loop with the Rabbit Ears, without additional hardware, like a splitter or combiner.
> 
> 
> I didnt test the loop, its not quite as stout as the loop on the RCA ANT108.
> 
> 
> So the RE's come with 300ohm twin lead hookups, but this unit does come with a matching transformer in the box. So I hooked up the transformer and then attached the RE's without the loop to the GV42LF.
> 
> 
> And it performed similarly to the FM Dipole, being that these are basically an FM Dipole themselves with telescoping adjustments. It picked up my strongest 2 digital stations with minor dropouts, both UHF channels. Alternate PBS Ch. 16 and ABC Ch. 2 WCBD.
> 
> 
> The build quality of the RE's is very good, and they have modern good looks. I think this would be a good choice for ganging with a better UHF antenna for there VHF Hi performance, similar to what Rick013 and golinux did.



EV, did you have a chance to try out the TV1 REs turned upside-down for UHF as suggested at the "TV Rabbit Ear" web site? They suggest using rabbit ears for UHF like this:


> Quote:
> _The axis of the angle formed by the rabbit ear points toward or away from the desired station, sort of. The antenna elements should be stretched out as long as possible, as you get greater gain and directivity as the elements get longer. This is not like VHF where you should adjust length according the channel wavelength_


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey, I was beginning to think I was talking to myself.


No, but Ill try it out.


Also I think I just found the gain adjustment on the Terk TV-5. Im gonna give it a go again. Maybe another boneheaded move on my part.....now that Ive trashed it up and down the street.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*RCA ANT1500*


Ive run through just about every antenna Ive got today and Im much more in tune with what is going on. And this one is getting an upgrade as well. When placed in the middle of the North corner window on the same 12ft coax cable, this unit kept up with the Double Bows. It wasnt the electrification or amping that did it that first day of testing. It was the location afforded by the extra 6ft of cable. And this thing sings over there. Its only missing one of my weakest stations....the other with heavy dropouts.


All that comes in the box is the unit with the non detachable coax. And that little bar that tucks into the unit to make a stand. Bumps on the backside plastic for keeping it off the wall, if you hang it with the 2 screw head mounts on the vertical center.



Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000
*RCA ANT1500*

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

Philips MANT 510

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

Terk TV-5

Terk TV-1 without Loop

RS FM Dipole

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Alright, Im gonna have to rewrite the Terk TV-5 entry. I had the gain adjustment, which is a sliding switch on the side of the unit, all the way down. With it on reception was much better, but not great.


I also retested the MANT510 and its getting an upgrade. Im getting good at understanding my location and testing the antennas....at least when I dont boondoggle it up. LOL!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Philips MANT510*











Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000

RCA ANT1500

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor
*Philips MANT 510*

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

Terk TV-5

Terk TV-1 without Loop

RS FM Dipole

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14195089
> 
> *Philips MANT510*



I concur with your revised assessment of the MANT510. It is currently THE antenna I'm using on my bedroom TV (three-year-old 20" Sony Trinitron CRT) It is the only indoor antenna I've acquired which provides stable reception on KIRO-DT - a 2-edge signal which is somewhat difficult to receive at my location - CBS (39.1 - virtual 7.1) and RTN (39.2 - virtual 7.2). I really like watching Matlock and Hawaii Five-O on RTN, even though it's in regular standard-def PQ.


The RCA ANT110 gets higher signal-strength numbers, but it seems that the MANT510's flat-panel UHF element is a bit less distracted by multipath interference than the standard UHF loop, and the amplifier is decent quality compared to many I've used. In my house, the MANT510 is fairly placement-sensitive (though less than the Silver Sensor), a tiny movement will make the difference. In my particular condo bedroom, the MANT510 seems to work well, though I've read that these units sometimes lose their amplification quality over time .


Any info on the Philips' junior colleague, the MANT410?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*RS 1868 Delta*


I mounted this on the 12ft coax and place it on the center ledge right where all the bow ties and the RCA ANT1500 and DA-5200 and Philips MANT940 went....and its performance was pretty good...but not up to the RCA ANT1500 or Single Bow Tie.


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000

RCA ANT1500

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor

Philips MANT 510

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)
*RS 1868 Delta*

Channel Master 4030

Philips MANT940

RCA ANT1020

Terk TV-5

Terk TV-1 without Loop

RS FM Dipole

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


----------



## EscapeVelocity

For the record, I had the Silver Sensor and the Terk HDTVa in the window as well. However the RS UFO was doing just fine on the Oppo.


MANT510 and RCA ANT110 in the window, as well. The Delta too and the ANT1020.

*EDIT Channel Master in the window.*


----------



## seatacboy

Is the RCA ANT1500 rating based on its non-amplified performance, or using an external amp?


----------



## fajitamosaic

seatacboy: Re - the MANT410.


I had the 410 and returned it pretty quick. Our old unamped rabbit ears / loop trounced it. We've got towers basically 10 and 20 miles out, and the only channel it could pull in was WLNS6 which has the strongest signal and is on the closest tower. For comparison, our unamped cheapie pulls in the big 4 network broadcasts just fine (we attached a crummy RCA amp to it and now it grabs PBS too).


I didn't get a 510 to compare it to, but I can't fathom the 510 being worse.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

seatac, Could you remove your quotation of the list its confusing enough already. I know sorry.


I just put everthing in the window. Everything below the gap didnt go in the window.


Here is the list with everything in the same position with equal runs of coax. Except for the RS UFO.


And yes that is the RCA ANT1500 without amplification, all non amplified units are unamplified in that list. All amplified units are amplified by their own integrated amps.


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000

RCA ANT1500

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor

Philips MANT 510
*Philips MANT940*
*Channel Master 4030*

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

RS 1868 Delta
*RCA ANT1020*

Terk TV-5

Terk TV-1 without Loop

RS FM Dipole


Jensen TV-931

RS 1870

_______________


----------



## EscapeVelocity

MANT940 in window tested again and added to the last list.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Sorry for the confusion. That is everthing in the same North Facing window with 12ft of coax or 2 6 footers joined. Except the RS UFO and the 2 straglers at the bottom, adn the stuff on the roof. I feel that is an accurate accounting.


The unamped loops all performed similarly, dropping my 3 toughest stations.


The MANT510 and MANT940 and Channel Master 4030 brought in everything but my 2 weakest stations.


The Silver Sensor and The HDTVa and Youtube brought in everything but my weakest station, but required lots of fussing. The Youtube less so.


The RCA ANT1500 and the Single Bow Tie brought in all but my weakest station and didnt require fussing.


The RS DA-5200 to the Winegard SS-3000 brought in all my stations, but had some dropouts on my weakest station.


The UFO may need to move up one notch.


----------



## fajitamosaic

I'll be curious to see what happens if you put the UFO near that window. Might start pulling in NASA radio chatter *grin*


----------



## Hank3

I picked this unit up last night after going into Radio Shack to see their outdoor antenna selection. Looks like with everything I'll need for an outdoor set up from there would run me close to $130. The salesman asked if I had tried indoor antennas and I told him I've tried two RCAs and the Terk listed in this thread. None worked for all the local channels - I was only able to pick up three out of six channels in HD. He mentioned that he had one UFO unit left and that nobody had returned that unit. He raved and raved about it and said that a lot people come in with the same problem as me and it solved their problems. I went home anxious to try this...alas the same result for me. I could still only pick up a two VHF stations and only one of four UHF stations. Is there something else I should try with the UFO unit before returning it and putting a wrinkle in the Radio Shack's salesman perfect record? I'm not too savvy with tuning antennas as I'm just getting into this. Should I just go with an outdoor setup? I can provide more info to my location and maybe someone could help me analyze my antenna readout/report?


----------



## fajitamosaic

Definitely at least post a zip code (or your TV Fool report), so folks can give you an idea of whether an indoor antenna will meet your needs. If you're more than 20 miles from the towers, indoor starts to get real dicey unless you're on a hill or there's nothing in the way.


Also, what's around you? Lots of trees? Lots of buildings? In a valley? Or clear all-around? Always helpful info










One suggestion I have for the UFO--try it in different spots if you can, especially near a window (facing the direction of the towers is even better).


And, last but not least, make sure the switch on the back is set to TV and not AUX. Out of the box, the switch on mine was set to AUX, and I was quite confused for a couple minutes wondering why I pulled in no signal.


Edit: Just for the heck of it, I punched Tallahassee FL into the TV Fool locator. Obviously, that's not an exact location down to street level, but it does return some interesting info. NBC and ABC are broadcasting at barely 8kW at 24 miles away! I think you're going to need outdoor for that. Now, the good news is, after the transition they're going to increase their transmit strength to 1000kW and 933kW. If you get CBS now, you'll get NBC and ABC then too.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Well, I did break out the UFO last night and put it in the window, with the same orientation and thus settings as last night.....I set it on top of the lamp, just below all of the other units in the North facing window and pointed at the Charleston towers at 45 miles and 27 miles. With that one setting I was locking a steady signal from my weakest channel, running the table, and getting reception from my alternate PBS station to the South West at 23 miles without moving the orientation of the antenna within the disc, all on position 8. Its moving above the RS DA-5200, which also did stellar.


It seems that position in a sweet spot, cable length, and atmospherics were all distorting the performance rankings. Fascinating. The RS Single Bow Tie was doing a little bit better on on 6ft coax cable and its 3 ft twin lead, as well....instead of the 12ft coax. Also, all the units from the RCA ANT1020 up to the RS UFO were picking up the alternate PBS on the backside while positioned to face Charleston, except for the Silver Sensor and HDTVa, which required a turn, to lock it in without dropouts.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im returning or selling these units.


Channel Master 4030

Terk TV-5

Terk TV-1

Jensen TV-931

RS 1870

RCA ANT1020

Philips MANT940

Winegard 4400

xg91


Im keeping


RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT108

Philips MANT510

Terk HDTVa

Silver Sensor

DB2

Winegard SS-3000

RS 1892 UFO

RS DA-5200

RS Single Bow Tie

Channel Master 4220


for further use and testing...


and Im picking up these units to test


Philips MANT950

RCA ANT806

Terk TV-55


----------



## Hank3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fajitamosaic* /forum/post/14197408
> 
> 
> Definitely at least post a zip code (or your TV Fool report), so folks can give you an idea of whether an indoor antenna will meet your needs. If you're more than 20 miles from the towers, indoor starts to get real dicey unless you're on a hill or there's nothing in the way.
> 
> 
> Also, what's around you? Lots of trees? Lots of buildings? In a valley? Or clear all-around? Always helpful info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One suggestion I have for the UFO--try it in different spots if you can, especially near a window (facing the direction of the towers is even better).
> 
> 
> And, last but not least, make sure the switch on the back is set to TV and not AUX. Out of the box, the switch on mine was set to AUX, and I was quite confused for a couple minutes wondering why I pulled in no signal.
> 
> 
> Edit: Just for the heck of it, I punched Tallahassee FL into the TV Fool locator. Obviously, that's not an exact location down to street level, but it does return some interesting info. NBC and ABC are broadcasting at barely 8kW at 24 miles away! I think you're going to need outdoor for that. Now, the good news is, after the transition they're going to increase their transmit strength to 1000kW and 933kW. If you get CBS now, you'll get NBC and ABC then too.



Thanks for you response, fajitamosaic. My house is surrounded by trees all around so I figured that's what's hindering the signal/reception. Anyways, I prepared myself for having to go with an outdoor antenna, but I'm willing try anything before I dive in and go all out with the outdoor setup. It's gonna take a good amount of work it seems like to get that set up. Here's the TV fool analysis:


----------



## TWinbrook46636

Have you tried the new ClearStream 2 from Antennas Direct?


----------



## Hank3

No - is that an indoor or outdoor antenna? I'm a newbie at all this antenna stuff. I can barely interpret that TV Fool readout


----------



## Rammitinski

EV - Have you tried the classic, old, $15.00, set top, double-bowtie model from Radio Shack yet? I didn't notice any mention of it, although I may have missed it.


That was always regarded in the past as one of the top 3 purely set top models, along with the 15-1880 and Silver Sensor.


----------



## TalkingRat

Hank, Clearstream2 is a new long range outdoor antenna just released yesterday. I haven't seen any reviews on it. Antennas Direct will also be working on SmartAntennas this year, including an indoor antenna - so something may be out to improve your 'circular' reception. I'm too new to antennas to offer help, just so you know what it looks like, here's a link:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/06/17...2-ota-antenna/


----------



## fajitamosaic

Hank3: You know, those distances don't look too horrible to me. You should be able to get the first five channels on the green section without much help. But those trees... the trees! If you have a bunch of trees, yeah... you want your antenna away from trees (out of the blocking / shadow area anyway).


I haven't read enough on rooftop and outdoor antennas to give advice there, but the TV Fool report suggests that something outside or on the roof will solve all your problems.


Now, for indoor, unless you're in the jungle, I'm wouldn't give up just yet... that TV Fool report just doesn't show the killer distances to rule out an indoor antenna. We're actually a little further from our locals than you are and get them in a basement apartment (one antenna in a window, the other is a UFO near a window). Of course, the closest trees are hundreds of feet away.


If you have a long enough length of coax, I'd try the Radio Shack UFO near a window, preferrably pointing north-east or south-west where the towers are located... then try the fine tuning adjustments on the antenna's remote. You'll definitely want to make sure the gain is set to 2 or 3. Keep in mind, NBC is broadcasting on VHF, so the internal UHF array won't help it one bit. I don't see why you can't get CBS, CW, Fox, and PBS though. ABC might be a lost cause until they jack up the signal power in February.


And if you can try it on the 2nd floor instead of 1st floor (assuming you're on a two-floor house), that'd be all the better.


----------



## GreenMonkey

I had one of those Radioshack 15-1880 antennas. With my Dish 622 receiver I was getting in my locals at about 35-45 miles...through some trees.


Worked great in clear weather, but it was problematic in with audio drops during icky weather (pretty common in Michigan) and required very careful aiming for each station since they are in different cities.


I went from Dish back to Charter with a TivoHD lifetime, expanded basic and a $2 cable card. So no need for the antenna these days. I think I still have it around here somewhere. Hope I didn't throw it away.


----------



## Hank3

fajitamosaic - I'm able to get CBS, FOX, and PBS right now. They all range on the DirecTV signal meter constantly from anywhere between 80-100. They all come in clear aside from the very occasional glitch. I need to get a longer coax to get it closer to a window. Would you recommend putting the UFO unit in the attic? Also, do I need to play with the channel setting? I've been just messing with the 12 positions, the rabbit ears, and the gain. Just to make sure I'm on the same plane - the rabbit ears will only help with NBC feed correct? I haven't been able to pick up any signals for NBC, ABC, and the CW.


Thanks for the link TalkingRat.


----------



## fajitamosaic

Hank3: Yeah, the rabbit ears are for VHF only (real channels #2 - 13), which in your case is NBC.


Not surprised you're having trouble with ABC (too low power) or NBC (VHF), but am surprised the CW doesn't come in... it's just as strong as CBS in your neck of the woods... though that tower is in the opposite direction.


I wouldn't recommend the Radio Shack UFO in an attic, since insulation and whatnot would kill most of the signal... it's not really attic fodder, unless you have a window up there.


Don't worry about the "channel" settings on the UFO, those are for storing settings once you lock them in. Let's say you get strong signals with it set to position 6 and gain of 3, then you can hold the Store button for 5 seconds, pick a channel number, and press the Store button again to lock those settings in to that "channel".


In your situation, based on the signal strengths and tower distances, you should be able to pull-in the CW on top of the other channels you already get with an indoor antenna. WTXL ABC is likely a lost cause with an indoor antenna now, though they'll be ramping up their transmit power significantly after February 2009. NBC is probably a lost cause entirely (low-VHF & low signal power).


For everything in the yellow, red, and gray sections of the TV Fool chart, you're going to need an outdoor antenna...


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/14200321
> 
> 
> EV - Have you tried the classic, old, $15.00, set top, double-bowtie model from Radio Shack yet? I didn't notice any mention of it, although I may have missed it.
> 
> 
> That was always regarded in the past as one of the top 3 purely set top models, along with the 15-1880 and Silver Sensor.



I got one in less than pristine shape, should be shipping soon.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Picked up an RCA ANT806 today, couldnt finda Terk TV-55 or a Philips MANT950. Also picked up a GE Futura Indoor/Outdoor which is similar to the Philips MANT940 and RS DA-5200. The indoor GE model model seems to be quite different.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...atalogId=10053


----------



## EscapeVelocity

This from a knowledgable antenna guru on another thread.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whitis* /forum/post/14195807
> 
> 
> What, exactly, is the basis for these comparisons?
> 
> 
> I wouldn't expect a single bowtie to outperform a silver sensor.
> 
> Even a commercial double bowtie with indoor stand and with undersized reflector (chinese, Channel master CM-4149, Radio Shack 15-623) , while it had higher raw gain, had lower net gain than the silver sensor below channel 32 (often much lower). The DB2 2-bay does outperform the silver sensor by as much as 3dB net gain from 14-51. The silver sensor has a pretty flat 6-7dB net gain over 14-51 and maybe not much less even in low/high VHF (plot is low resolution in that area). Over the same range, a single 7-1/2" 70 degree bowtie with solid triangular plate elements and with no reflector has only about 2-3dBd or 4-5dBi (Antenna Engineering Handbook). The silver sensor outperforms the sharpshooter (SS-3000) on net gain for all channels from 14-51.
> 
> 
> The silver sensor is one of the best commercial indoor antennas with the DB-2 2bay outdoor being a good candidate for indoor use if you improvise a stand.
> 
> 
> The terk HDTVi is a similar design (clone) to the silver sensor except that instead of swept back wings it they curve forward and it adds rabbit ears for VHF. The HDTVa is the same but with an amplifier built in. Probably not a very good one as they don't cite noise figures. No one seems to have modeled these and no gain/frequency or gain/direction plots seem to be available.
> 
> 
> Now some like the radioshack 15-234 simple bowtie. one person gave the impression it might have performed about as well or better as a 4-bay CM-4221. If that is the case, though, his signal might not be coming from the direction he thinks or his signal is too strong. It shouldn't be anywhere close.
> 
> 
> Silver sensor is apparently reported to do better than the terk.
> http://www.htpcnews.com/forums/index...howtopic=19610
> 
> but the author might have been confused about which antennas were compared.
> http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/antin.htm
> 
> (silver sensor does very well on carrier to noise especially with a good amp)
> 
> and a test report on the radio shack simple bowtie (not much good for comparison):
> http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/8vsb.htm
> 
> I would put the silver sensor right under the DB-2 and the terk below it.
> 
> 
> 
> The silver sensor does have one critical flaw. When it is knocked over, the plastic piece that holds the F-connector can separate from the boom and the internal coax connection can break. Thus, I suggest that it be modified with three plastic wireties. hold one flat under the boom and wrap another around the boom forward of the rearmost element pair and tighten. Connect the second wire tie (the one that went inside the loop of the first around the stand. Then use the third to secure the coax cable to the stand.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> 
> Stumbed across spectrum analyzer comparison of outdoor antennas Scala 1469, CM-4228, CM-4248, CM-5646, CM3671, Winegard HD7210 and SS1000, and antennas direct 91XG on a 20' mast in houston area.
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...72#post6245872
> 
> h
> 
> Worth looking at the spectrum to compare analog and digital stations. Analog stations were a lot higher but digital stations broader, as you would expect. Be interesting to see what the integrals under those curves (on a linear scale) would be. Digital signals were stronger than the color subcarrier. It was amazing how close adjacent digital/analog or digital/digital stations were.



My response.....



> Quote:
> That list you quoted is distorted by cable length, location of the antenna, and atmospheric variations, among other things.
> 
> 
> If you look at the updated list that I posted. Those were all done closely together on the same day, in the exact same position and location.....with amplified units being driven by their integrated amplifiers, with either a 12ft coax or 2 6ft coaxes joined with a female to female adaptor or by the power injector.
> 
> 
> The probable reason why the Silver Sensor and HDTVa are lower on my list, is that they are too directional and I dont have stable signals. Ive got tree scatter, plus a tree line 60 yards out, 100 feet high. It took a lot of fussing to get them to lock some stations. So for my situation and purposes, all the unamped loops and everthing above are preferable to the SS and HDTVa....certainly the Philips MANT510 and MANT940.
> 
> 
> Beamwidth matters.
> 
> 
> The DB2 and CM 4220 are giving me less dropouts than an xg91 on the roof. Same thing is happening. Of course the xg91 is higher gain.....but the beamwidth matters for my situation.
> 
> 
> But I understand where you are coming from. "Stable" multi-path is a whole nother ball of wax, for big city folks.
> 
> 
> Im gonna put a signal analyzer on them, when I get one. I was just eyeballing these with my 7 or so digital stations and 3 or so uhf analog stations, knowing which are my weakest and strongest.....with not even a signal meter available from the TV tuner.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14194740
> 
> *RCA ANT1500*...



EV, if I understand you correctly, when you place the ANT1500 in the exact same "sweet spot" as you've used for other indoor antennae, you've gotten the best signal strength of any indoor antenna you've tried other than the RS-1880, and excepting one of your weakest stations....and another with heavy dropouts?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Its comparable to the Double Bows....its all pretty tight thru there. Very good performance. mosaic didnt seem to like it though.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Early impressions of the GE Futura Outoor is that its comparable to the Philips MANT940.


The RCA ANT806 seems to best it on UHF, and be bringing in VHF Lo analogs pretty good. Though I havent been focused on VHF performance with these antennas. Its performance on UHF analogs is very good.


Ill try to do a mini review when I get a chance.



Note to self.....need to rewrite Terk TV-1 on front page and write RCA ANT1500 comments as well.


Terk TV-5 removed from Miscellaneous Design antennas and added to not recommended list, The Dog House, with Jensen TV-931 and RS 1870.


----------



## fajitamosaic

The RCA ANT1500... heh, EV, it's not that I didn't like it... the color, the size, the ease of hiding... what's not to like?... it's that it simply didn't perform any better than our unamped loop/rabbit in the same spots. *grin*


I'm sure the whole basement apartment with windows facing north situation is putting unique wrinkles on my experience with antennas. After all, the best I can do is put them near the north facing window... at most 2 feet above ground level (yay phone books!). And all of the towers are east, southeast, and southwest.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Gotcha mosiac.


We'll put the signal meter on these and then we will know for sure.


What kind of amplifier did you get?


Could you post a pic?


Thanks.


----------



## fajitamosaic

The amp I attached to the loop/rabbit is a cheapie RCA unit we got at Meijer. Looks like a small chrome box with two coax spots and a power cable attached. I believe the model # is VH100. I'm sure it isn't the quietest amp out there, but at $15... eh, I figured what the hell... and it does seem to work. Dropouts on WILX NBC are infrequent now. Course, that antenna didn't need much help to begin with, especially in the living room...


The Radio Shack UFO is still doing well in the bedroom. Haven't touched the settings or positioning in two days. Signal sometimes jitters when a car starts outside, but that's no biggie...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I found it. Thanks. I found these 2, a decent cheapie and a nice clearance item.


The GE Signal Booster, which is claiming 10db+ at 6.5db noise Max, plus it isolates the power supply from the amplifiier via the wall wart and power injector, plus it puts the amplifier upstream near the antenna. They are going for $10 shipped on ebay. This is very similar to the RS 1170. This may be a good cheap amp for readers.






















Or I found this Motorola which is claiming 2.5db noise Max. and 15db amplifier gain. The BDA S1. Its bi-directional for use with cable modems as well. Its a GaAsFET amplifier. Very nice. There are a couple of units up on ebay as well.

*Convenience Features*
Simple 4-step installation (no tools required)
Gold-plated connector design for signal reliability








 *Versatility Features*
Full bandwidth, bi-directional amplifier
Capable of both forward and return (two-way) communications — important for cable modem services
Improves UHF/VHF/FM antenna reception








 *Performance Features*
Improve signal strength up to 32 times (15 dB)
Low noise figure of only 2.5 dB
Supports Pay-per-view and Video on Demand (VOD) Services








 *Certification*
UL Approved
CE Approved








 *Compatibility Features*
Enables use of multiple broadband devices — TVs (analog/HDTV), cable set-top boxes (digital/analog), cable modems, VCRs and digital radios








 *What's Included*
One amplifier
One AC adapter
Two six-foot coax connections
Two mounting screws
One installation guide








 *Tech Specs*
Forward Specifications (52-1000 MHz) - Nominal*
Gain: 15dB
Input Return Loss: 25dB
Output Return Loss: 25dB
Noise Figure: 2.5 dB maximum
RFI Shielding: 100 dB minimum

Return Specifications (5-40 MHz) - Nominal*
Insertion Loss: 1 dB
Input Return Loss: 25 dB
Output Return Loss: 25 dB

Other Specifications*
AC Power Supply Input Voltage: 120VAC
DC Amplifier Input: 12 VDC
Power Consumption: 3W
Surge Withstand: 6000V
Operating Temperature: -40° to +140° F (-40° to 60° C)
Housing Dimensions: 4.0H x 4.9W x 1.1D in. (10.2 x 12.4 x 2.8 cm)
Weight: 1.7lb (0.8 kg)

http://broadband.motorola.com/catalo...ith_return.pdf


----------



## CB2112

EV- Thank you. Great thread!. Just this week I finally decided I've had enough with Comcast and started looking into alternatives (Satellite/OTA). Would much prefer FREE OTA.







Since I am new to this I was hoping you could provide some advice. I live in rural CT and have my 46" HDTV DLP in my basement, a 27" HD Ready TV in my main floor living room, an old analog set and an iMac in my bedroom. My house faces south with few windows to the north. What I am looking to do is et up my iMac as a DVR or maybe get a TIVO for the living room, and hopefully get rid of cable.


I think the best spot for an indoor antenna might be my desk in the bedroom upstairs which is adjacent to a window and has the most northerly exposure besides my 1st floor bathroom window.


Do you think the RS 15-1892 UFO would make a decent choice. And would I need to get one for each of my TVs? If so would an indoor antenna work in a basement?


Here's the TVFool info if it helps.


Thanks in advance for your advice.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey CB2. Im sure others will chime in, but I think you will do good in a North-West facing window, to catch all those channels at 322 and 275 plus or minus, and hope to catch your closer stations. However you can move an indoor around to adjust for different stations.


Id start with one antenna, to see what it can do, you also need to look for sweet spots, maybe get 12 feet of coax or so to go with you indoor antenna to survey the area. And use it in your best location, and your other locations. You could use one antenna(in the attic or upstairs or upstairs outside a NW facing window) and run a distribution amp, but that would require lots of wire work. That is your call.


Be prepared to try more than one antenna, you may find that one works better in one location and another in a different location. The list will help you pick and choose good ones of different styles. Perhaps pick up a cheap RCA RE&Loop and Single BowTie just to start off.


Just some thoughts. Others will chime in Im sure.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

You could put up a Channel Master Stealth Antenna or a Winegard MetroStar outside as well.


----------



## fajitamosaic

My concern for CB2112 is the 1Edge and 2Edge notation next to all of the local channels. CB2112, are you right next to a large hill or mountain? 1Edge and 2Edge usually means there's a landmass blocking the way.


Also, the only channels pumping out strong signal are 30+ miles away...


... can't hurt to try an indoor antenna, but based on those signal strengths and surface notations, I'd put my gamble on pole or rooftop.


----------



## wwong

Great thread! Thanks EV and everyone else for their hard work and expert advice. Best for anyone who would like to improve the OTA reception with indoor antenna



Antenna: RCA rabbit ear - amp (have it for 10 years from analogue day)


Location: South of Mt Wilson, Orange County in CA


Problem: in the 2nd row of apartment, lower floor facing the North Towers, difficult for KABC, and PBS, signal strength, dropout and micro-block happened so often that made it unwatchable. No direct view of the towers anywhere.


With the Aluminium foil behind the loop to act as a reflector (test for last 3 days):

Signal strength improves like 10%

"Dropout" and "micro-block" almost disappear, happen so rarely, and recover a lot sooner.


I think the reflector makes the antenna more directional and less prone to moving objects(wind, plane/helicopter or people inside and out.)








Now, we are so happy about the OTA digital TV, it is so amazing (PQ), and virtual no "dropout" due to fluctuating signals.


Wish everyone could find their ways to improve their OTA experience.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey wong. Great tip. Also, you could cut out a piece of cardboard box and wrap it in aluminum foil. Makes a great reflector, which makes the omni or bi directional antenna more directional (higher forward gain) or shields the antenna from noise from a certain direction.



You are right mosaic. I always forget about hills and valleys. Im a flatlander. A good place to start is with a couple of cheapies ANT110 and a Single Bow Tie and 12ft of coax. That way, you can analyze your prospects without much investment.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Looks like CB2 has 3 or 4 VHF Hi channels as well.


----------



## fajitamosaic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14215039
> 
> 
> Looks like CB2 has 3 or 4 VHF Hi channels as well.



Oof, I can't believe I didn't notice that. Apart from indoor classic rabbit ears, is there anything else that can be done for VHF besides putting up an outdoor antenna?


----------



## wblynch




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wwong* /forum/post/14214649
> 
> 
> 
> Problem: in the 2nd row of apartment, lower floor facing the North Towers, difficult for KABC, and PBS, signal strength, dropout and micro-block happened so often that made it unwatchable. No direct view of the towers anywhere.



KABC is a problem with most everyone in OC. Their digital is currently on UHF channel 53 at reduced power but after next February they will be going back to VHF channel 7.


Not sure which PBS you're talking about, Channel 28 or 56?


KCET 28 is also a problem for a lot of people and I've found that you have to have the antenna positioned just right to get it.


I have a directional UHF antenna, the Radio Shack U75R, mounted up in the attic and to get KABC and KCET, I have to split the difference between channel 4 KNBC and 7 KABC. Although both are supposed to be at 332* for me, their best signal comes in about 15* apart. So that puts my antenna at about 325*


I'm 51 miles away with no hills between me ant the towers.


For one TV on the indoor Zenith Silver Sensor (unamplified) I get everything but KABC requires a lot of fiddling to get the antenna pointing just right.


----------



## jleh

Great thread EV; your dedication (addiction







) is quite inspiring!

*Background:* I live on the second floor of a three-floor, twelve-unit condo facing north. TVFool output and a bird's eye view snippet from maps.live.com attached. I am using the Zenith DTT901.

*Results:* With the YouTube antenna, I am only able to receive WNJT (PBS). Not sure that really counts as it's just 3 mi away, and I'm unsure that the antenna I built actually works, since a paperclip gets me the same channel!


While I was at Lowe's getting the materials for the YT antenna, I also picked up the MANT510. (FYI, Lowe's was selling it for $24.97 - it had a yellow tag - sale/clearance? There's also a $10/$25 coupon out there to drop this lower - loweswinners.com/LifeTakesVisa ).


With the MANT510 un-amped, I can't pick up anything besides WNJT. With the amp cranked up to 3 or 4 LEDs out of 5, I am able to get WPVI, WCAU, WTXF, WNJT and WUVP, but the signal is usually 50-60% or less, and has periodic dropouts. I've even gotten WPHL once, but the signal was constantly dropping out so I'm not really counting it. Not sure why I can't pick up KYW though.


Any comments/suggestions welcome. I'm thinking of trying an amp for the YT antenna to see how it will fare, since it seems like I do need an amp based on the MANT510 results.


----------



## wwong

Thanks EV for the suggestion! I have the best reflector with aluminum foil wrap around a cardboard. Haha!


Result: With only one rabbit ear, a self-made reflector, and no adjustment when changing channels, I am getting very stable reception for all stations except 13.1 and 18.X


Channels with excellent receptions (signal stable, no noticeable fluctuation) : KCBS2.1, KNBC4.X, KTLA5.1, KABC7.X, KCAL9.1, KTTV11.1, KCET28.X, KPXN30.X, KOCE50.X, KDOC56.X, KLCS58.X, KRCA62.X


Channels with viewable receptions: KCOP13.1 and KSCI18.X (there are other minor channels omitted as I do not watch them)








While I am writing this response, I am watching "Jeopardy" and so far did not notice any "dropout" or "micro-block" at all.







Before I had my reflector, I would either miss the question or heard the question, but would not get the answer. Always happened on the most critical moments.


I am very happy now about the OTA reception.


Good luck to all of you that still need to improve your signal. Keep reading the tips from this site, and continue trying. You will find a better solution very soon!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Wong :thumbsup.....usually you will get best performance by placing the loop sideways towards the towers, in your case Mt. Wilson.....and you can find the sweet spot for the reflector spacing, Id suggest 3 to 6 inches behind. Try to make your reflector larger than the loop by 4 inches or so as well.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fajitamosaic* /forum/post/14216765
> 
> 
> Oof, I can't believe I didn't notice that. Apart from indoor classic rabbit ears, is there anything else that can be done for VHF besides putting up an outdoor antenna?



Any units with Rabbit Ear dipoles work well for VHF Hi. You can add an offboard amp if your antenna doesnt come with one. Place the Rabbit Ears perpendicular to the ground in a V and parallel to the towers. Or you can lean them forward a bit towards the towers....to "catch" the signal.


The long "stick" antennas also offer good VHF Hi performance, as well. The RCA ANT806, Terk TV-55, and Philips MANT950. The Winegard SS-3000 also.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

jleh, most antennas with and integrated amplifier dont perform well at all without their amplifier. What needs to be stated is that you cant amplify nothing. So youre best move is to get the best gain antenna you can find, and then if its still not working as well as you like, add an amplifier to boost the marginal reception channels. The GE cheapie amplifier I found above seems to be decent, but the Motorola should rock because its much cleaner 2.5db noise figure, and both are inexpensive. Power in the 12db to 15db gain range for an off board amp (whose claims are more believable than 50db MANT510's) should be optimal for indoor antenna setups, more power may overload the tuner on your stronger channels.


See if you can find a hot spot with a longer piece of coax. Get a directional antenna and do a 360 turn with it to see which direction you are getting the best reception from. Try a different antenna.


The UFO is great.


I got my MANT510 at Lowes too.


----------



## CB2112

Wow, thanks for the quick response everyone. I'll try to answer a few of the questions and ask a few more of my own.


CT doesn't really have any large mountains but it is definitely not flat. So yes there are a few hills between my house and the transmitters 30 or so miles away. While the Channel Master Stealth Antenna might be a good solution mounting it on the side of the house will surely get a veto from the wife. Besides the numerous birds and squirrels taking over my yard would have a field day with it.


Is there a big difference between VHF Lo and VHF Hi? Is it difficult to get a single antenna that will pick up both Lo and Hi VHF and UHF?


Curious, are most people on this board with antennas using primarily the digital channels? It looks like I will get much better reception by sticking with the digital only channels.


EV from your review of the UFO it sounded like once you set a station on the antenna and save it it would return to that spot automatically whenever you changes the channel and it wasn't necessary to retune the antenna with the remote every time. A couple of the negative reviews I've read on the web for this antenna state that you need to use the remote every time. But I think they might be wrong.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

CB2, Ive got 1 edge and 2 edge reception as well. So I would think that the indoor antenna route is viable for you. But as always with indoor andtennas, YMMV.



> Quote:
> Is there a big difference between VHF Lo and VHF Hi?



While I wouldnt necessarily say that their is a BIG difference, VHF Hi is much easier to pick up for Rabbit Ear Dipoles and UHF antennas.


Analog is dead, Feb09. In fact if you input your data at AntennaWeb they will tell you if any of your digitals are moving back to VHF Hi for their digital transmission. You need to focus on digital, first.


You dont need to reset the antenna for that station, but assuming a change in values for position and gain, you have to key in a channel number in the UFO remote. Its not as sweet as a automatic tuner controlled smart antenna. If you only have 2 directions like mosaic and me, you only have 2 positions to worry about.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here's to the original patriots!


Happy 4th of July!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Added KenH's words of wisdom in the Introduction on Front Page.


----------



## colion

I have started to look for a HD indoor antenna. To keep peace in the house, I am trying to zero in on one without rabbit ears and have been given the "go ahead" by the boss based on looks for the GE 24775 Quantum. Does anyone have any experience with this antenna?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im interested in anybody's experience with the Quantum as well.


However, it does have a telescoping Rabbit Ear monopole.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *colion* /forum/post/14221171
> 
> 
> I have started to look for a HD indoor antenna. To keep peace in the house, I am trying to zero in on one without rabbit ears and have been given the "go ahead" by the boss based on looks for the GE 24775 Quantum. Does anyone have any experience with this antenna?



Let us know your findings. I've seen the GE 24775 Quantum displayed at Target. The "three panel design" seems to echo a suggestion earlier in this thread about wrapping aluminum foil behind a rabbit-ear-and-loop antenna to minimize multipath and macroblocking effects.


As seen at Target, I was annoyed that the exterior product packaging had descriptive narrative about "Smarter design" and "Smarter technology". The 24775 Quantum is not a CEA-classified Smart Antenna, and Jasco/GE really ought to remove the "Smarter" description from the unit to avoid the appearance of deceptive advertising.


Let us know your experiences with the unit!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Added DIY Cardboard Aluminum Foil Antenna Reflector to the front page.


----------



## dattier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14218012
> 
> 
> The long "stick" antennas also offer good VHF Hi performance, as well. The RCA ANT806, Terk TV-55, and Philips MANT950. The Winegard SS-3000 also.



Actually, on VHF-high I am getting poorer performance from my ANT806 than on VHF-low or UHF, but to be fair


1. right now this area has only analog signals there, so I don't know whether it would lock digital VHF-high signals in adequately or not (WWTO-DT on VHF10 does not reach me ... thank you-know-Whom); come February the one station on VHF-low is moving to VHF-high and one on an out-of-core UHF frequency is moving its digital signal to its current VHF-high analog assignment, so if I still own a stick antenna then, I can find out then;


2. I am using it indoors for lack of any way to set it up outdoors.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

GE Futura indoor on the way.


Need to write up a guide pointing rabbit ears, and finding sweet spots on front page.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

dattier, the thing about those stick antennas is that they dont lend themselves to optimal placement. Your dipoles arent as adjustable as classic Rabbit Ears. They mount flush with a wall or ceiling, etc. Orientation and location are important. Just mounting these over the Flat Panel, isnt likely to be optimal.


----------



## jleh




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14218023
> 
> 
> jleh, most antennas with and integrated amplifier dont perform well at all without their amplifier. What needs to be stated is that you cant amplify nothing. So youre best move is to get the best gain antenna you can find, and then if its still not working as well as you like, add an amplifier to boost the marginal reception channels. The GE cheapie amplifier I found above seems to be decent, but the Motorola should rock because its much cleaner 2.5db noise figure, and both are inexpensive. Power in the 12db to 15db gain range for an off board amp (whose claims are more believable than 50db MANT510's) should be optimal for indoor antenna setups, more power may overload the tuner on your stronger channels.
> 
> 
> See if you can find a hot spot with a longer piece of coax. Get a directional antenna and do a 360 turn with it to see which direction you are getting the best reception from. Try a different antenna.
> 
> 
> The UFO is great.



Thanks for the tips. Will try to check out an amp to see if I can get anything usable out of the YT antenna. For now, adding the aluminum foil reflector behind the MANT510 seems to have somewhat stabilized the channels I have (does that mean I have multipath issues?).


I did try a longer piece of coax (25ft), but didn't get much further with it. Perhaps with the reflector on the MANT510, I'll have a more directional antenna and I could try it again.


Looks like the Silver Sensor type antennas have had good reviews in general, so I might try that out.



> Quote:
> I got my MANT510 at Lowes too.



Gotta love Visa


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jleh* /forum/post/14225849
> 
> 
> ......adding the aluminum foil reflector behind the MANT510 seems to have somewhat stabilized the channels I have (does that mean I have multipath issues?).
> 
> 
> I did try a longer piece of coax (25ft), but didn't get much further with it. Perhaps with the reflector on the *MANT510*, I'll have a more directional antenna and I could try it again.



Over the past couple of days, I've been testing aluminum foil behind an *MANT510* and *RCA ANT110*, but not yet ready to declare conclusive improvement. I may keep experimenting with the aluminum foil reflector, as it does somewhat inhibit certain types of multipath.


One thing I've observed: at my location, the three major network affiliate transmitters are at the same location and similar height, but I rarely can receive dependable signal on all three ATSC stations with any one aerial. KOMO/ABC is UHF 38 (4.1), KIRO/CBS is UHF 39 (7.1), KING/NBC is UHF 48 (5.1). I find the *Philips MANT510* generally gets reliable reception on KIRO/39 but not on KING/48, while the *RCA ANT110* gets reliable reception on KING/48 but not on KIRO/39. Fiddling with aluminum-foil reflectors has slightly improved things but not changed these results.


The *Radio Shack 15-1868 "Delta"* (which I'm using this afternoon) performs similarly to the MANT510 though with a bit less signal strength (nonamplified) and slightly more proneness to multipath (but a bit more resistant than the ANT110).


Multipath interference seems to be a real problem for dependable ATSC reception, particularly in my location. I just might go down to the hardware store and try out a *Channel Master 4221*, using the unit inside the cardboard box so it can be placed close to my condo's reception "sweet spot" less obtrusively. Stay tuned. I never expected TV antenna testing to become a side hobby!


----------



## Rammitinski

That's really what you have to do if you want to use an indoor antenna. Most people just try one or two and give up, or settle. 9 times out of 10, there's always room for some improvement.


But most people don't want to take the trouble and just want it all to come easy, or sometimes the WAF enters into it (as far as aesthetics and/or antenna placement).


----------



## dattier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14225370
> 
> 
> dattier, the thing about those stick antennas is that they dont lend themselves to optimal placement.



Neither does my limitation to using it indoors, nor the clutter we have here.


> Quote:
> Orientation and location are important.



That's true of any antenna.


It's the reason I said I was getting poorer performance, not that the antenna peformed more poorly.


In fact, earlier today I tried it in another room and it was just as good on VHF-high as on VHF-low or UHF.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I cant really remember my quick run through with the RCA ANT806. But it seems to me I remember good VHF Lo performance as well. I cant remember VHF Hi. Ill check it out when I get a chance.


----------



## seatacboy

My upstairs neighbor bought a Zenith DTT900 converter box and a Philips MANT410 from an online retailer. I helped him connect the box to his TV. Note: he lives in the same condo complex in the unit directly above me, but the TV he is using faces a south window (opposite direction from most of the Seattle stations).


I first connected his DTT900 to an RCA ANT110. We picked up a total of 21 subchannels, and had trouble pulling in KOMO/ABC. Overall, the ANT110 worked pretty well but I suggested we open up his brand-new MANT410 and connect it.


The MANT410 has nice assembly quality, and features an oval-shaped UHF aerial piece and separate amplifier controls for UHF and VHF gain. We left VHF gain completely off as there are no VHF DTV channels in this local area.


Running a channel scan, we pulled in 24 subchannels using the MANT410. More significantly, a couple of channels which were missed I was able to retrieve using a manual channel input. At his location - two stories above my unit - we obtained fairly stable reception on most of the local Seattle area channels. Interestingly, I observed that the MANT410 is very similar to the MANT510 in being quite directionally-sensitive. Positioning the antenna to receive strong signals on the Queen Anne hill transmiters (KOMO, KIRO, KING, KONG), the MANT410 received a very poor signal on the Tiger Mountain transmitters (KWPX, KUNS, KWDK, KHCV).


Interestingly, although KOMO's signal wasn't as strong as I'd hoped (it generally was about 50-60%), signal and picture were more stable with the amplifier turned on but at or near the lowest gain setting. It could be that cranking up the MANT410's amp gain makes it more prone to pulling in reflected multipath signals and pixillation patterns. By contrast, the MANT510 seems to do fine with the amp gain "cranked up" towards the middle.


Here's my recollection of signal strength:

KOMO/ABC - some pixillation and macroblocking, strength was 50-60%

KING/NBC - very minor pixillation and macroblocking, strength 65%

KIRO/CBS and RTN - stable, strength 70% (same as using the MANT510 in my condo unit two stories below).

KONG - stable, strength 70% (I can't get KONG on the MANT510 in my unit two stories below, except for a brief "blip" using a reflective aluminum foil piece)

KCTS/PBS - very minor pixillation, strength 70%

KSTW/CW - excellent, stable, strength 80%

KCPQ/Fox - stable with minor drop outs, strength 65-70%

KBTC/PBS - flawless, strength 95-100%

KWPX/Ion - surprising amount of pixillation and dropout, strength 65%


Sometime in the next couple of days, I'm going to bring my MANT510 up to his unit and see how it compares with the MANT410. I was very impressed by the 410. It's quite possible that the units are similar as far as directionality and multipath resistance. I'm intrigued whether the MANT510's flat-panel UHF element and "50 db" claimed amplification is conclusively "better" than the MANT410's oval-shaped UHF element and "45 dB" claimed amplification.


The MANT410 offered a decisive margin of better signal quality than the RCA ANT110 which I started out using. The MANT410 might be superior to the MANT510 in some locations.


----------



## seatacboy

This afternoon I disconnected my analog cable TV and connected the MANT510 to see if it performed any better than other indoor antennas at my extremely bad reception location.

Analog VHF: lousy. Even fiddling around with the long rabbit ears and the amp levels, my analog reception was just plain miserable. Worse than other rabbit ear antennas I've used.

Analog UHF: surprisingly pretty good. I was able to pick up a somewhat snowy but usable picture on KONG 16 and KMYQ 22, significantly better reception than I normally could get using other rabbit ear antennas. I also obtained good reception (as with other antennas) on UHF channels 20, 28 and 51. Analog UHF pictures were more stable, less prone to arbitrary fade, than with other indoor antennas.

Conclusion: The analog UHF findings in my bad-reception spot underscore why the MANT510's flat-panel UHF elements may work well for some users. I have no desire to go back to analog reception, but this test underscored something of why this Philips design is better-than-average.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thats great stuff seatac. Cant wait for more.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a pic of a homemade cardboard and aluminum foil reflector shield. This one is much bigger than necessary, but you get the gist of it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Other household items that make good reflectors are oven grills and BBQ grills. Orient these so that the bars are horizontal not vertical.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

These reflectors seem to improve only marginally, bringing in marginal reception channels. Im gonna test out a corner reflector by bending one of my cardboard aluminum foil reflectors and see how that works.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

kyes antenna site added to front page.


Specs and info added to Terk TV-55, Philips MANT950, RCA ANT806. Antennas Direct Lacrosse and ClearStream 1, GE Futura Indoor and Outdoor and GE Quantum added to The Dugout. Table of Contents updated.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Antennas Direct ClearStream 1*













> Quote:
> The first in a series of compact, highly efficient antennas designed and optimized for 2009 frequencies associated with the DTV transition.
> 
> 
> High gain, and compact design offer excellent gain and impedance matching across the whole post 2009 DTV spectrum. The Clearstream is vastly superior to the existing compact antennas for receiving DTV signals. Good directivity at all frequencies with a peak gain of 8 dB. Provides substantial performance gains over commonly available compact antennas.
> 
> Range: Up to 30 Miles
> 
> Gain of 8 dBi
> 
> Consistent gain through the entire DTV channel spectrum
> 
> Totally new engineering for post-2009 DTV frequencies
> 
> Great for indoor, outdoor and attic use
> 
> Dimensions 10”h x 10” w x 4.5” deep
> 
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/images/c1.jpg


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Antennas Direct Lacrosse Micron


----------



## EscapeVelocity

GE has a bunch of antennas. Check em out.

http://www.jascoproducts.com/product...24744webg1.jpg 




Here is a funky looking one, The Millenium. Doesnt look very promising.











This one looks promising.











As well as the Contempo.











And the basic Omni.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jleh* /forum/post/14225849
> 
> 
> I did try a longer piece of coax (25ft), but didn't get much further with it. Perhaps with the reflector on the MANT510, I'll have a more directional antenna and I could try it again.



What the longer piece of coax gives you, is manuvuering room to find "sweet spot" locations. You lose 1db of signal for every 6ft of coax, so you generally want to keep the coax length down. However you can gain massive swings in signal via sweet spots as opposed to dead zones, so locating them is probably the best "move" you can make in improving indoor antenna performance.


Location (Sweet Spots)

Model/Type of Antenna to optimize gain and beamwidth.

Positioning

Amplifying marginal signals

Isolating Interference from Electrical Appliances and out of home sources possibly using Filters or Highly Directional Antennas.


Hope this helps.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> I never expected TV antenna testing to become a side hobby! - Seatac



Ditto! LOL!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

GE Signal Booster vs Radio Shack 1170


The components look almost identical as far as form factors go.


The differences from the spec sheet are that the 1170 is rated to 2200Mhz and the GE to 900Mhz.


GE is listed as 6.5db Max noise to 900MHz and the Radio Shack to 7.5db Max noise to 900Mhz and 9.8db Max noise to 2200Mhz.


I suppose that the RS unit is spec'd for diplexing Sat and Cable signals as well.


----------



## Rammitinski

Egads. Those are outrageous noise figures.


That Ace distribution amp I suggested earlier I think is only around 3.5dB.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The power outputs are rated at 10db for both units, with some variation up and down the spectrum +/- 1db. But the measured amplification at mast head by the HDTVprimer for the 1170 is 12db.


Ive also got the Motorola BDA-S1, at 2.5db Max noise and 15db.


----------



## Rammitinski

Oh, OK. Well, then I hope you're using _that!_


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im testing gear.


If I was looking for an amplifier, Id probably go with the Motorola, GaAsFET amp. But I have a CM Titan 7777 doing a fine job.


----------



## hdfan1

Has anyone heard when that Lacrosse Micron indoor antenna will be available? It is pictured on the antennas direct main page but you can't click on it to order the antenna and other sites have it listed but it is always listed as back ordered.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Is this the Ace amplifier Rammitinski?

http://www.acehardware.com/product/i...Id=29316521543


----------



## EscapeVelocity

As much as Id like to get a nice Signal Spectrum Analyzer, I just cant bring myself to pony up $400 for one.


I picked up a DigiAir which will give me some relative signal levels, though.


----------



## Roger Lococco

there's been a bit of interest in this thread about the GE Quantum 24775, I picked one up today at Target, my advice is don't bother, it's a piece of junk. I can easily receive my strongest station, WABC, with even a .99 cent store pair of rabbit ears, yet the Quantum had a very hard time receiving and maintaining a stable signal. And despite the advertising blurb on the box saying there's no need for repositioning, it has to be moved around a lot for every station. I am currently using a Philips PHDTV3, and it's vastly superior to this antenna.


----------



## EvlAsh

I can second Roger's opinion on the GE Quantum. I'm going to return it tomorrow and stick with my Radioshack DA-5200, which has really performed to my expectations.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Wow, thats 2 strikes on the GE Quantum. Then again Roger has a very difficult big city situation and its tough to beat the RS DA-5200 from my experience.




OK so I got a Digiair coming to do some instrument measured testing. I dont think Im gonna have the CM 4030 or the RCA ANT1020 and Terk TV-5 models when it gets here.


Im gonna do a big instrument measured test with all available units including the FM Dipole, the CM4220 on the roof with the CM7777 amp....the RS 1880 everything Ive got.


Then Im gonna sell some of the units Ive collected and choose a few units throughout the performance gamut to benchmark future units using the Digiair. I think that will produce pretty good results in the formation of the performance rankings.....as it will allow for integration of measurements taken in different atmospheric conditions.


As much as Id like to have a nice signal analyzer and real measurement figures instead of arbitrary relative figures, this will have to do.


Ill need a few days to learn the Digiair when it gets here.


Picture Frame Antenna and RS 1864 on the way.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14237441
> 
> 
> Is this the Ace amplifier Rammitinski?
> 
> http://www.acehardware.com/product/i...Id=29316521543



No. It's a full-sized, standard AC model.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14232116
> 
> 
> These reflectors seem to improve only marginally, bringing in marginal reception channels. Im gonna test out a corner reflector by bending one of my cardboard aluminum foil reflectors and see how that works.



I'm also testing aluminum-foil reflectors, primarily with the Philips MANT510 and RCA ANT110. My results so far are finding some marginal benefit but still a bit inconclusive.


----------



## seatacboy

Godar USA, which produces some specialty antennas, hosts some great (copyrighted) pictures of vintage indoor TV antennas . Scroll down the page for a terrific walk at the aerials of yesteryear!


Is anyone here familiar with the Godar indoor TV antennas? C.Crane sold these in the past - here are their current models:
Godar Model One 
Godar Model 2A 
Godar HD3 
Godar HD4


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im testing the foil reflectors with the ANT110, seatac.


I didnt know Godar made TV antennas, cool. Maybe I could contact them to add them to the test?


Those are some really cool looking old antennas too.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Why does EV not recommend the Terk TV-5?



It seems to perform about on par(not quite) with the basic RE&Loops and it is well made and looks cool.


But its adjustable in Azimuth only and its very large. You need 16" from center to clear the wall to spin this thing around on its axis. You could possibly hang this thing from the ceiling, but ultimately, I think that better performance and ergonomics are readily available and for less money.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Samsung Axession TV HD-1000 came in today. Early impressions....it performs similar to the Philips MANT940 and GE Futura Outdoor, but I would put it below those 2 for ergonomics and usability reasons, which Ill get into later.


The GE Futura Outdoor has a great little mount, excepting that its a bit under engineered, lightweight.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14245809
> 
> 
> Why does EV not recommend the Terk TV5?....



The Terk low-profile antenna design is not particularly new - it was introduced in the early 1990s. Earlier this year, I acquired a used Terk similar to the Terk TV4 . The antenna worked reasonably well for analog reception but was unimpressive for ATSC digital reception. I simply couldn't obtain the kind of stable signal strength and multipath resistance needed to get adequate ATSC performance.


Aesthetically, I liked the design. When I donated it at a Salvation Army store, it got some affectionate staring for good looks. YMMV.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14047880
> 
> *On Deck - The Batter's Circle*
> *GE Optima Amplified & Non Amplified Rabbit Ears & Loop*



In April, I tested the non-amplified GE Optima 24713 for about a week, then brought it back to the store. I only evaluated the unit for ATSC DTV using a couple of Zenith DTT900 CECBs.


GE/Jasco's Optima antenna design was brought on the market several years ago. Jasco's description is that the Optima's "_passive microwave circuitry reduces color fading and constant tuning_", and includes a "_2-way signal_" feature.


The GE Optima is aesthetically attractive, including a reasonably sturdy base, an attractive solid UHF element piece, and two black aluminum rabbit ears (I don't recall their extended length). A six-foot standard thin-grade cable is hard-wired into the base, terminating with a decent-quality 75-ohm connector. It's possible that if the Optima featured a user-replaceable cable connector, I would have kept it - the attached cable seemed to be less impressive than the rest of the unit.


I evaluated the unit at my difficult condo location and at a close friend's apartment closer in to the transmitters. At the time, my overall impressions were inconclusive. I do recall at my friend's apartment, it seemed to maintain a stable signal level on stations with direct line-of-sight.


I actually wasn't too eager to return the Optima back to the store because it looked good, but it fell a bit short of my goals for dependable ATSC reception. The fit and finish were very good, the Optima felt like it was built to last. The UHF unit had some range of rotation and azimuth adjustment.


There is one very positive, sensibly-written user review of the GE 24713 Optima Antenna at "Big River".


This writer looks forward to EV's evaluation and analysis of the GE Optima, particularly the amplified version.


----------



## seatacboy

C. Crane Company sells a _Cornet Indoor TV Antenna_ which it describes as follows:


> Quote:
> _The Cornet UHF/VHF Indoor TV Antenna outperformed every indoor TV antenna we’ve ever tested – by a huge margin!_



Is anyone familiar with this unit?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey seatac, keep the review comments coming, great stuff.


I dont have a spectrum analyzer, so I wont be able to assess multi-path issues, only relative signal strength.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I just ordered one last night.


----------



## seatacboy

Boutique catalog merchant Hammacher Schlemmer states it sells The Best Indoor Television Antenna . They describe their $39.95 unit in quite glowing terms. This unit appears to be identical with Jasco's GE Infinity Amplified TV Antenna , model number 24737.


This writer has learned to be cautious and wary about advertising which claims miracles for TV reception performance. Has anyone here tried out this unit, and had user experiences to share?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I have a sneaking suspicion that the GE Contempo and the Samsung Axession TV HD1000 are the exact same antenna.


----------



## seatacboy

 Cornet F-645A Ampified Indoor TV Antenna at Overstock.com


This may be the same unit being sold by C.Crane, I haven't seen the Cornet antenna at other retailers.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

It is, but I decided to support C Crane company. They seem a good sort. Although I have dealt with Overstock.com before and they were effecient and pleasant when I needed to return something.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Proof that I havent been making all of this up.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

GE Infinity "Hammacher Schlemmer" special on the way.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

RCA to release new Bow Ties at the bottom of its lineup!





> Quote:
> AudioVox Launches Flat TV Antennas
> 
> 
> By Greg Tarr -- TWICE, 6/27/2008 2:06:00 PM
> 
> 
> New York — AudioVox has begun the rollout of its RCA-branded indoor TV antennas, targeting new DTV purchasers and set-top converter box users making the transition from analog to digital reception.
> 
> 
> 
> Under the RCA line, the company is planning a total of seven indoor antenna models this year, ranging in price from $14.99 to $99.99. Five of the planned models feature a new omni-directional square flat design, which makes the antenna easier to place out of sight, and blend better with the look of today’s flat panel TVs.
> 
> 
> “One of the things we at AudioVox set out to accomplish was redefine what antennas look like,” said Hank Caskey, AudioVox, reception VP. “One of the things we hear at the consumer level was that people don’t like the way antennas look.”
> 
> 
> 
> The first model to hit the streets is a midrange RCA ANT1500 flat indoor antenna ($59.99 suggested retail). The antenna, which measures 10.5-inches square, is designed to minimize the “cliff effect” of digital TV reception with a multi-direction capability. The unusual design enables placement flat on a tabletop or wall mounting, AudioVox said.
> 
> 
> 
> AudioVox has tuned its flat antennas at the end of the coaxial cable, making the cable part of the antenna itself.
> 
> 
> 
> The line is also comprised of several models that come with additional external amplifiers that connect to the end of the coaxial cable for areas where signals are more difficult to tune. By separating the amplifier from the antenna, instead of building it in, AudioVox reduces the potential of over saturating the signal, which can add to noise and block reception. This way users can take the antenna’s home to determine if they really need the additional amplification before attaching it.
> 
> 
> 
> Those flat antennas with amplification (ANT1450, ANT1550 and ANT2000) are also said to offer an extremely low-noise co-efficient to reduce interference with signal reception.
> 
> 
> 
> In developing the antenna’s the company uses a “duo-plane” design” incorporating both VH and UHF reception.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to flat antennas, the RCA brand will feature a pair of entry directional bow-tie style models. Due later in the year is another flat-design model (ANT2000) with SmartAntenna ability, designed to connect to converter boxes with special SmartAntenna inputs. SmartAntenna’s automatically sense the direction of a signal and automatically adjust the antenna for optimal reception.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to the RCA line, Audiovox is also working to expand indoor and outdoor antenna’s under its Terk line for later in the year. With its combined brands Audiovox’s marketshare for indoor antennas “is somewhere north of 50 percent,” the company said.
> 
> 
> 
> Audiovox said that as the DTV transition progresses, consumers are purchasing nearly 20,000 over-the-air TV antennas everyday, and most of those are for indoor use. The industry currently moves consistently between 8 and 10 million units a year, and Audiovox believes “the numbers will go a little bit north” this year.
> 
> 
> ......This Week In Consumer Electronics
> 
> 
> http://www.twice.com/article/CA6574033.html


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14247950
> 
> 
> Proof that I havent been making all of this up.



I can think of worse obsessions/addictions! LOL!!!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

hey golinux, what did you think of the RS DA-5200s mount?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Great stuff here....




> Quote:
> DTV antennas don't need to cost a lot of money
> 
> http://www.walb.com/Global/story.asp...=menu37_11_4_1
> 
> 
> Good DTV antennas don't need to cost a lot of money. They all performed OK in UHF, but generally performed more poorly in VHF. However, most of the antenna's high (Ch 7 to 12) VHF performance was far better than low (Channels 2 to 6) performance.
> 
> 
> The Philips MANT940 18 bb active (has an amplifier) and RCA ANT 585 antenna seemed to be the big winners with at 18 to 21 db gain with fairly flat performance even in the VHF range.
> 
> 
> The cost on the Internet is under $25 to $35. Philips or the RCA . Neither look physically that bad and the Philips can be mounted indoors or out of doors.
> 
> Consumer Indoor Antenna Test Results Reported at the
> 
> NAB Broadcast Engineering Conference
> 
> 
> On Monday, April 14, during the "DTV Reception Issues" session which was part of the NAB Broadcast Engineering Conference (BEC), Dennis Wallace of Meintel, Sgrignoli, & Wallace gave a presentation describing the testing that they performed on consumer indoor antennas. One objective of the testing was to develop indoor "planning factors" based on the measured capabilities of the products currently in the marketplace. The facilities at Electronics Research, Inc. (ERI) were used for the tests.
> 
> 
> As background, the presentation noted that indoor antennas will be important for consumers in the DTV transition. The tests were to determine the types and numbers of indoor antennas and to assess their performance specifications versus measured performance and then based on this data, suggest the antenna assumptions that might be used for indoor reception/propagation models.
> 
> 
> Their research (in 2007) indicated over 107 available models:
> 
> 8 VHF Only Models
> 
> 10 UHF Only Models
> 
> 89 VHF/UHF Models
> 
> 64 Antennas with no electronic components (passive)
> 
> 43 Antennas had pre-amplifiers (active)
> 
> No "Smart" Antennas were found (it was reported that some are in development to use the CEA 909 interface).
> 
> 
> The investigation revealed that there was very little published performance data on the antennas; rather they found lots of marketing hyperbole about "Digital" or "HDTV" Antennas; "Low Noise", "High Gain" and such. Further, there was little measured data available. The presentation showed each antenna with the available published data.
> 
> 
> Measurement of a selected sub-set of these antennas was undertaken using ERI's Anechoic Chamber. Ten antennas were selected, a mix of five active antennas and five passive antennas. The measurements made included:
> 
> Gain of Antenna Relative to Dipole
> 
> Azimuth Pattern
> 
> Elevation Pattern
> 
> Polarization Isolation
> 
> Output Return Loss
> 
> Active Antenna Gain/Loss
> 
> Active Antenna Noise Figure
> 
> 
> The presentation included the measured patterns for each antenna (not shown here) and summary tabular data, some of which is shown below.
> 
> 
> The measured passive antenna gains (dBd) for selected channels are shown in the following table.
> 
> See graph on link.
> 
> The measured active antenna gains (dBd) for selected channels are shown in the following table.
> 
> See graph on link.
> 
> 
> Each of the five active indoor antennas was evaluated for preamplifier performance. Selected results are shown in the following table.
> 
> See graph on link.
> 
> 
> Mr. Wallace offered the following conclusions:
> 
> 
> Some antennas have very well behaved directional UHF patterns as exemplified by the Silver Sensor, SS1000, SS2000, DB2, and SS3000/HDTVIp. They typically had good Front/Back ratio (>10dB) and polarization Isolation 6-10dB. The Sharpshooter behaved well at Hi-VHF frequencies as well.
> 
> 
> Hi-VHF Performance for the UHF Only Antennas was generally poor and variable. For example, the Silver Sensor Hi-VHF reception was 90 degrees from "front" of antenna. Other antennas were "Quasi-Omni-directional" (ANT115, ANT585, MANT940, TV25, 303F) with broad patterns for azimuth and poorer polarization isolation. Some of these had greater gain in vertical orientation.
> 
> 
> Active antennas generally had better return loss and would provide impedance mismatch isolation to the receiver.
> 
> 
> Generalizing from the results these antennas suggest are appropriate, the following preliminary planning factors were among those suggested.
> 
> See graph on link.


----------



## seatacboy

The article EV referenced on "Consumer Indoor Antenna Test Results" derives from a presentation by Dennis Wallace of Meintel, Sgrignoli, & Wallace. He was one of three speakers at the 2008 NAB Broadcast Engineering Conference who gave presentations on DTV Reception Issues . The WALB news story is very thorough, though one wishes they could have obtained permission to link to the measured patterns for each antenna, as presented at the conference.


A blogger, Stu Lipoff , attended the sessions and offered some comments. This was discussed in the HDTV Technical forum in late April. It would be very helpful if more details were available about the test results as to Front/Back ratio and polarization isolation for the specific antennas.


----------



## seatacboy

WALB's article " DTV Antennas Don't Need to Cost a Lot of Money " cited lab measurements presented at the NAB Broadcast Engineering Conference which indicate the RCA ANT585 is a better-than-average performer as an indoor aerial. In terms of active antenna gains and low preamplifier noise, the ANT585 tested out well. However, more details regarding Polarization Isolation, Output Return Loss, and Azimuth Pattern were omitted from the tables in the article.


Anyone care to offer their experiences or knowledge regarding the ANT585? Also, the NAB presentation by Dennis Wallace reported very good measured performance for the " Terk TV-25 ", is this essentially the same as the current-model Terk TV5 or a different animal?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ive got Mr. Dennis Wallace's contact information, and Im going to see what I can do about getting a hold of that data.


Great blogger style hot linked comments there seatac.


I was surprised at the low noise figures on the integrated amps.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I just figured out that I dont have a DB2 but rather an Eagle Aspen! What a hoot!










*Eagle Aspen Dtv2Buhf


*or do I?


Seems the DB2 has been updated, with a water resistant balun box which is purported to be less lossy.


----------



## seatacboy

From Audiovox Accessories Corporation (d/b/a "RCA"): Stay Tuned 2 TV 

Good information about Audiovox's innovative RCA-branded flat DTV antennas including the ANT1500 and the soon-to-be-available ANT2000 SmartAntenna. See the RCA Digital Antenna brochure . There is some marketing hype, but I remain enthusiastic about the potential of these new Audiovox/RCA products.


Here's also an article from trade industry journal Dealerscope: " RCA's Antenna Line: Not Your Father's Rabbit Ears "


Here's also a glimpse at the heritage/reputation value associated with the RCA brand which Audiovox has licensed from the General Electric Company (owner of the former Radio Corporation of America ):
1947-vintage Retail Store Display Screen for RCA Victor Television 
Early RCA TV Antennas


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thats great stuff Seatac! From your link....


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I wonder if the RCA1500 I injected with power actually did include an amplifier in the unit, because it seemed to do better that first night of testing, than when I placed it on the window ledge again but without power injected. But I attributed the difference to atmospherics. I shall investigate further.


----------



## Buckeye911




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14247950
> 
> 
> Proof that I havent been making all of this up.



We have a winner for this month's OCD award.







Thanks for all your work on this thread, lots of great information.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

This is my great contribution to the betterment of humanity. Perhaps it will help spur better antenna offerings in the future as well.



I cant take all the credit though. Other posters have provided great insights and have spurred me on as well. Im thinking of crediting them on the front page introduction, they deserve it. Especially seatac.


----------



## wblynch




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14254043
> 
> 
> This is my great contribution to the betterment of humanity. Perhaps it will help spur better antenna offerings in the future as well.



Myself and all Humanity Thanks You !!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

EV's Magnum Opus!


[takes a bow]


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14249617
> 
> 
> hey golinux, what did you think of the RS DA-5200s mount?



I didn't spend much time investigating. I hand-held it to try various locations and then tied it to my pole with an old shoelace in the sweet spot.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14252999
> 
> 
> I just figured out that I dont have a DB2 but rather an Eagle Aspen! What a hoot!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Eagle Aspen Dtv2Buhf
> 
> 
> *or do I?
> 
> 
> Seems the DB2 has been updated, with a water resistant balun box which is purported to be less lossy.



That looks exactly like my DB2. A friend ordered a DB2 more than a year after I got mine and the balun was indeed a plastic box. Mine is the older style pictured above. Doesn't make a difference to me since I use it indoors.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

3 Indoor/Outdoor Models in Box


----------



## allargon

EscapeVelocity, thank you so much for the work you've done.


Might you update the first or second post with your performance rankings from top to bottom?


Thanks.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*GE Futura Indoor/Outdoor Amplified*











This one performed similar to the Philips MANT940 on UHF, though the MANT940 may have better VHF Hi performance(based on the info in the WALB.com article from the NAB Conference in April). What I really liked about this unit was its bend into shape gooseneck mount. However, this mount is very lightweight, but very versatile. Good assortment of mounting hardware and cables.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Philips MANT940 Indoor/Outdoor Amplified*











Here is the MANT940. As I stated before, very thorough assortment of mounting hardware, and versitile mounting system, though a bit more complicated than the GE and RS units. Very good UHF peformance, and Ill have to check, but the WALB.com article tested decent VHF Hi performance as well. Its antenna box is taller than the other 2....perhaps the reason for its better VHF Hi performance.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Radio Shack DA-5200 Indoor/Outdoor Amplified*











The RS DA-5200 clearly outperformed the other 2 on distance performance. Not to say that the other 2 might not suffice in a location closer to the towers, if the antenna doesnt pic up a minimum level of signal, the amplifier cant amplify no or a pitiful signal. The mounting system is also A+ for quality of build, design simplicity with an single pre-assembled hefty articulating arm made of steel and ABS plastic. The MANT940 may offer better VHF Hi performance though.


Definitely my favorite of the 3.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Boxes analyzed for outdoor durability.











Here you can see that the RS DA-5200 has a pointed topside and rounded sides for horizontal mounting, which would seem to be well suited for shedding water, avoiding water puddles which may leak into the plastic seam and also possible ice damage, which would weaken the plastic seams or crack/seperate them, thus increasing the likelyhood of water damage/corrosion of the internal amplifier and antenna elements.


The Philips has lips which may tend to direct water onto the top and keep it there, especially asking for ice prying it apart and water puddles....however you could angle it with its mount to help prevent this. Additionally, this unit may perform best mounted horizontally, and it conveniently also has a pointed edge on one side to shed water. The Philips may use slightly heavier gauge plastic for its antenna box plus good engineering as it is strong and resists flexing.


The GE has a flat top and rounded sides. However the ability of its gooseneck mount to resist weathering is suspect.


I put these units in this order for Weather Resistance.


1. Philips MANT940

2. RS DA-5200

3. GE Futura Outdoor


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *allargon* /forum/post/14255758
> 
> 
> EscapeVelocity, thank you so much for the work you've done.
> 
> 
> Might you update the first or second post with your performance rankings from top to bottom?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Is it in a bad spot down towards the mid bottom of the front page? I can move it if you think it would be better placed at the top of the page.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Samsung Axession TV DA-1000*











The Samsung Axession DA-1000 based on a quick observation session had similar performance to the Philips and GE units above. Its antenna box is a bit bigger than all of them, but I put its performance at slightly below the GE/Philips units, based on my quick observations. Similar to the RCA ANT1500, it has a steel bar that inserts into the back of the unit to form a stand.


This unit is not an outdoor model.


It has one quirk, and maybe Im wrong, but it seems to have a proprietary cable interface, which doesnt bode well for versatility or lost cable syndrome. Someone correct me if this is not the case.


Im not recommending this unit.











This Samsung model seems to be very similar to the GE Contempo. My guess is that they are exactly the same units. Therefore, I will not be acquiring a GE Contempo for testing.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I hooked up a power injector with the RCA ANT1500, and it did not seem to improve performance. FWIW.


Also, I hooked up the RS 1892 UFO at the Southern bedroom location that is currently occupied by one of my RS 1880 units. This is a location which is underneath the giant tin roof reflector and oak tree signal scatterer. These were pointed South SW out of the Southern facing windows(my primary towers are in the North NE) and approximately 15 feet deep into the room. It performed admirably, but the 1880 definitely edged it out. I would call it a not quite satisfactory solution at that crazy location though, similar to the 1880.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14249903
> 
> 
> Anyone care to offer their experiences or knowledge regarding the ANT585? Also, the NAB presentation by Dennis Wallace reported very good measured performance for the " Terk TV-25 ", is this essentially the same as the current-model Terk TV5 or a different animal?



I think that this indicates that the amplifiers are doing their jobs, but the original antenna capture on the MANT940 and the Terk TV-5 is suspect.....ie.....given a strong signal they will work great. But their antennas arent the best.


Amplifiers can only do so much.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Edited comments on Terk TV-1. Added Cornet 645A, GE Infinity, and Channel Master 4000 to The Dugout. Added thanks and recognition to several posters in the Introduction. Edited Table of Contents.


Edited comments on Weatherproofing of 3 Outdoor models.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Multipath to Clarity


Receiving HDTV over the air takes luck and lots of patience


By Philip Yam - Scientific American

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...ath-to-clarity


----------



## EscapeVelocity

This would be a good time for someone else to say something.


----------



## kousikb

Thanks for sampling all these antennas.. I guess these roundup will be really useful for people going forward and especially after DTV transition. Do you happen to test the Channel Masters smart antenna model.. they say it has a range of only 30 miles.. but the spec says nothing about the smart antenna interface. Does it work with the GE 22730 (available in Target)? I read somewhere that GE 22730 requires GE's proprietary smart antenna. Looks like smart antenna will be an obscure technology and will fade away because of consumer disinterest.


----------



## seatacboy

Personally, I'm quite eager to see evaluations of a smart antenna (SA). As of today, the Channel Master 3000A SMARTenna(tm) appears to be the only SA currently for sale in the U.S. Curiously, CM's web site description of the 3000A is vague. CM doesn't clearly state whether an SA-equipped tuner interface is required.


Audiovox's RCA-branded ANT2000 should be on the market later this year. Personally, I'd consider buying an SA-compatible CECB (i.e. the RCA DTA800B1) if a SmartAntenna could overcome reception problems at my location. At this point, however, we don't have much real-world experience with SA technology including questions about dependability/reliability.


This did bring up a good question though: how many brand-new TV sets come equipped with a Smart Antenna interface?


If anyone from Audiovox or CM is following this thread, they might e-mail EV, myself or other frequent contributors to this thread about serving as "beta testers" for their Smart Antenna products.


----------



## kousikb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14261628
> 
> 
> If anyone from Audiovox or CM is following this thread, they might e-mail EV or myself about serving as "beta testers".



Count me in too.. inspite of poor picture quality I kept the GE 22730..







for the sole reason of trying out the smart antenna. But $70 is little too high for "trying it out". Lets see when SA becomes affordable.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I thought Sylvania had a couple of models of Smart Antenna. The DTA-5000 and the DTA-3500.



The DigiAir Signal Meter came in today. Its charging right now.










http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/P...gnal-meter.htm


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Picked up the Antenna Handbook by Lo and Lee and the Practical Antenna Handbook by Carr at the the library.


----------



## seatacboy

Interesting DVICE blog article and user comments: " RCA Debuts Flat Antenna to Match Your HDTV "

" RCA Multi-Directional Flat Antenna Designed for Pinpoint Pickup of Free Over-the-Air Digital TV " (German source).

" RCA debuts flat antenna to match your HDTV " from Multihunter.com


ANT1500 at _Solid Signal_ Their price is $31.99 ($28 less than Best Buy).
ANT1500 at _Ambient Weather_ Their price: $30.69
ANT1500 at _Electro Galaxy_ Their price: $30.69
ANT1500 at _Beach Audio_ Their price: $33.999
ANT1500 at _Walmart_ for $49.96 is TOO HIGH compared to the competition. Wake up, Walmart!! Time for a James Bond-style "ROLLBACK"!!!


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14261750
> 
> 
> I thought Sylvania had a couple of models of Smart Antenna. The DTA-5000 and the DTA-3500.



Yes, though like the CM they are very hard to find in retail stores. Solid Signal's Smart Digital Antenna (item no. ANT500), described as _Smart Digital Antenna for 6900DTE Sylvania DX DTA-5000 TV Smart Antenna Multi-Directional HDTV Digital UHF VHF Outdoor Off-Air High Definition Local HD Television Reception Aerial, GREEN ZONE, Part # DTA5000, Item No.: ANT500, Price: $97.95_


----------



## rezzy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14260987
> 
> 
> This would be a good time for someone else to say something.



What? You're doing a great job.....I certainly couldn't do this. Keep it up.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I need some feedback and chatter, so I dont feel like Im talking into space.


----------



## golinux

At this point I'm kinda glazed over. There's just too much information to take in. Not that that's a bad thing. I just need to digest it in small doses. Besides, everything is working so well here, I don't have much incentive for further experimentation. So continue your soliloquies.


----------



## deltaguy

My Mant510 actually beat the Silver Sensor last night on one local, channel 29. The 510 was getting high 80's percent signal while the SS was only managing 60 or so. I don't watch 29 much, so I hadn't noticed before.


My original experience with the 510 was probably hindered by the fact that I never turned the unit towards the window. I wanted the front of the 510 facing me, or sideways. I never got around to turning it 180.


I tried for analog 10 last week. I extended the dipole sections one at a time until they were full. I found best reception with the last, and thinnest, section of the dipoles collapsed. 10 will run a digital test some time this summer.


For long range UHF via rabbit ears alone, the goal is to get solid audio first, then zero out the sets sharpness control. It isn't a great picture, but you'll be able to hear the game at least.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I hedged on the SS and HDTVa. The Philips MANT510 and MANT940 beat them here IMO. I was able to pick up more channels fidgeting with the SS and HDTVa, but that really isnt my idea of a workable solution.


No trees and one tower cluster, and they may be fine.....or big city strong signals but nasty multi-path.


Im still experimenting though.


I dont think the DigiAir is going to work out. It seems to bottom out at 12 on its meter. And My strongest digitals are reading 15ish. Most are buried at or below 12. The analogs NTSC signals are showing higher levels...up to 30. This is with the CM4220 on the roof with the CM7777 amplifier. I tried the RCA ANT110 loop first and I thought it was broken, it wasnt reading squat except 12 on the meter.


Ill piddle around with it some more. But its not looking promising.


Back to the drawing board. I may get a Zenith DTT901, but I dont have my coupons yet. They were set to ship on July 7th. Which CECB has the best Signal Meter functions?


----------



## spokybob




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14263973
> 
> 
> I need some feedback and chatter, so I dont feel like Im talking into space.



EV. Thank you so much for all your work & excellent posts. I commented on the 1st or 2nd page. I currently do not have a CECB for my garage. (I thought sure coupons would be coming in to replace the ones I traded for future consideration).

I pulled the donated MANT510 out of the box to try analog rececption. With a 25' coax, I tried everywhere in the garage to pull in CH 4 which is -dbm61.2

out at about 27 miles. I even placed it outside. Pic 4180 shows the best I could get it with the 510. Not very watchable.

So I built a dipole antenna and screwed it to the front of the shelf.

Pic4182 shows ch4 using that antenna.

EDIT: I like the RCA box the best for signal strength because it also has an audio tone which is useful when moving the antenna around while behind the TV.


----------



## deltaguy

I was surprised that some of my UHF stations were not affected by having the dipoles set for channel 10 analog. Most were down around 20%. I'm still likely to go for a 2 converter solution somewhere down the line.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks.


I dont think the Zenith has a numbered meter. Do any of the CECBs have a numbered meter, from 1 to 10 or 1 to 100?


----------



## spokybob




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14265277
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> I dont think the Zenith has a numbered meter. Do any of the CECBs have a numbered meter, from 1 to 10 or 1 to 100?



The RCA has numbers which is great when comparing antennas. I have built several U tubes with slight modifications just to experiment. The focus is off a bit in this pic on this old bigscreen in the bedroom.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks spokybob! That is just what I needed.


I was considering the Zenith/LG, RCA 800, and the CM7000, for purchase. Looks like the RCA gets a spot.


The DTVPal got bounced from consideration.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I was all set to get teh Zenith, but I might go with the RCA and CM CECBs.


----------



## dattier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14265277
> 
> 
> Do any of the CECBs have a numbered meter, from 1 to 10 or 1 to 100?



The Digital Stream DTX9950 does (as did the 9900), and so does the Magnavox TB-100MG9.  The two do not use the same scale, nor does either's numerical reading correspond to the bar length from the Zenith boxes, but both go from 0 to 100.


That's just for the record; I'm not trying to talk EV into getting either of those instead of the RCA or Channel Master boxes.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I heard the Digital Streams get hot.


Anyways, the RCA 3rd revision is for sure now. Its between a CM7000 and a Zenith 901 for the second spot.


Im looking forward to the RS 1634 . I have high expectations for it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is some good info.



> Quote:
> [PDF] DTV Reception and Consumer Antennas
> 
> 
> File Format: Microsoft Powerpoint - View as HTML
> 
> 
> Zenith Silver Sensor; Megawave; Radio Shack 15-1864 loop; Terk Antenna Pro, RCA ANT3002 VHF/UHF, Channel Master 4228, Winegard SquareShooter
> 
> https://secure.connect.pbs.org/confe...e.Antennas.ppt


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spokybob* /forum/post/14265159
> 
> 
> I pulled the donated MANT510 out of the box to try analog rececption. With a 25' coax, I tried everywhere in the garage to pull in CH 4 which is -dbm61.2 out at about 27 miles. I even placed it outside. Pic 4180 shows the best I could get it with the 510. Not very watchable.



A few days ago (see page 15 of this thread), I also observed that the MANT510's analog VHF reception was substandard, even fiddling around at length with the rabbit ears. I can't explain why, since the actual RE elements seem to be very high quality. The MANT510's real strength is the excellent, highly-directional UHF flat-panel array element. Analog UHF reception using a relatively low amp setting was impressive in my brief evaluation.


Another possibility: Some MANT510s reportedly lose their amplifier performance over time . Have you checked the amplification lights on the front, and done a simple "reset" using the amplifier on/off switch on the MANT510's back?


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/14264564
> 
> 
> My Mant510 actually beat the Silver Sensor last night on one local, channel 29. The 510 was getting high 80's percent signal while the SS was only managing 60 or so. I don't watch 29 much, so I hadn't noticed before.
> 
> 
> My original experience with the 510 was probably hindered by the fact that I never turned the unit towards the window. I wanted the front of the 510 facing me, or sideways. I never got around to turning it 180.
> 
> 
> I tried for analog 10 last week. I extended the dipole sections one at a time until they were full. I found best reception with the last, and thinnest, section of the dipoles collapsed. 10 will run a digital test some time this summer.
> 
> 
> For long range UHF via rabbit ears alone, the goal is to get solid audio first, then zero out the sets sharpness control. It isn't a great picture, but you'll be able to hear the game at least.



EV, in my user evaluations and current use, the MANT510's UHF flat panel element is NOT omnidirectional. In my location, it's almost as picky about directionality as the Silver Sensor, but it is not as notoriously prone to tipping over. The directional focus may be part of why the MANT510 edges out other antennas I've used in my condo bedroom.


I might check out the Radio Shack 15-1892 "mushroom tower" but really would like to get my hands on a Smart Antenna.


I second your idea of evaluating an RCA DTA800B1 CECB. I evaluated the RCA DTA800B a few months back but took it back to Walmart due to concerns about quality control - it had a tendency to "freeze up" much like a malfunctioning PC. RCA may have worked through QC bugs, and the newer unit does have APT, the Smart Antenna interface, a superior remote design and (apparently) a "back-door" means to add stations not captured during the channel scan process. Looking forward to your evaluation!


----------



## seatacboy

EV: have you used an aluminum-foil reflecting surface specifically with the Radio Shack UHF Outline Bow-Tie Antenna (15-234)? A good DIY configuration of a reflective surface might render this $4.19 aerial (or an even-cheaper generic outline bow-tie antenna bought at a "dollar store") very effective.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> and (apparently) a "back-door" means to add stations not captured during the channel scan process. --- seatac



I know you can directly access channels with the Zenith, as per fajitamosaic. The Zenith willl show signal strength on stations that arent being tuned.


Can you explain or post a link to the information seatac?




I have used an oven grill as a reflector for the single bow tie and the Youtube, with marginal results. Ill give the aluminum foil cardboard with the single bow tie and check it out.


I folded my large aluminum foil reflector and used it with the RCA ANT110 loop. Marginal improvement again, although it did seem to work better with the fold horizontal instead of vertical.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

PS - I believe you on the MANT510 directionality. I cant confirm or deny. Its been a while since Ive had that one out. But I remember it having some directionality.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14268633
> 
> 
> I know you can directly access channels with the Zenith, as per fajitamosaic. The Zenith willl show signal strength on stations that arent being tuned.
> 
> 
> Can you explain or post a link to the information seatac?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have used an oven grill as a reflector for the single bow tie and the Youtube, with marginal results. Ill give the aluminum foil cardboard with the single bow tie and check it out.
> 
> 
> I folded my large aluminum foil reflector and used it with the RCA ANT110 loop. Marginal improvement again, although it did seem to work better with the fold horizontal instead of vertical.



I have a zenith dtt900 and you can key the RF channel numbers in directly without having to scan them and they can be saved even if you don't have a solid signal.

When it scans for channels if you watch it you may see channels where it hesitates for a period of time but doesn't save that channel, thats a good indication that there is a signal there but not strong enough to lock in.

You can also do a scan where it will just add the newly found channels to the exsisting list very nice if you have stations in different directions and have to rotate the antenna.

The signal meter is not very precise and it takes signal at least 1/3 up the bar graph before it will lock on.

It is a great receiver and handles multipath very well.


When putting any type of reflector behind an antenna the size and spacing are fairly critical 1" the wrong way can make a difference. It also depends on what type of antenna bowties, dipoles,etc..


----------



## wwong

I think a reflector will reduce the effect of "multipath" and make OTA channel viewable. The improvement will not be coming from the signal strength. So if you are already having reasonable signal strength, and do not fluctuate much, you would not be able to see much benefit. For digital OTA, signal of 60% is as good as one at 80%. The PQ would just be the same; digital is either none or all.


In my situation, my signal strength for all viewable channels is in the range of 60% to 80%. However, even a channel with 80%, the signal could fluctuate (suspect from multipath) in the range of 20% to 80%, and it happen very often. Anytime, when it is below 50%, I would experience all the "dropouts" and "micro-block" and not viewable.


With the reflector, the signal strength would gain like 5% (very minimal), but it would only fluctuate within 5% range. Because the signal stays within 60% and above for most of the time, my TV tuner would not have any problem in producing a perfect picture. The major benefit from the reflector is, signal remain at a very stable level for my TV to decode.


Even in very rare instant, the signal may drop well below the acceptable level, it would recover so much faster as compared to before.


We also live on the flight path to OC Airport, and constantly have plane flying over us. Anytime a plane fly by, I would lose the picture. Amazingly, with the reflector, planes overhead do not cause any "dropout" anymore.


So you may experience more improvement when your environment is complicated by lots of changing reflective surface, huge electrical devices (neons in NY city) or man-make birds overhead.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think Im going with a 3rd gen RCA DTA800B1 and a 2nd gen DTT901.


The Svideo is tempting though on the CM7000.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Great stuff, wwong and mclapp.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

My coupons came in today. Im going to get an RCA DTA800B1 and a Zenith DTT901 if I can find them. Walmart and Circuit City, right?


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14268633
> 
> 
> I know you can directly access channels with the Zenith, as per fajitamosaic. The Zenith willl show signal strength on stations that arent being tuned....Can you explain or post a link to the information seatac?



Re the DTA800B-1, see message from DD210 on page ten of the DTA800 CECB thread .


Re the Zenith, I have two DTT900s. They can be tuned directly to a non-scanned channel. Non-scanned channels can be manually added by the user. It's easy to test the signal strength on any channel (scanned or non-scanned) while rotating an antenna, using both the audible SS beeping as well as a visual SS display.


I thoroughly like the Zenith boxes as the PQ is very impressive - though I've occasionally noticed odd audio distortion problems like many others.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14268769
> 
> 
> PS - I believe you on the MANT510 directionality. I cant confirm or deny. Its been a while since Ive had that one out. But I remember it having some directionality.



The MANT510 is definitely not as hyper-directional as the SS or HDTVa, but compared to the RCA ANT110 or RS 1868, it's directional characteristics are fairly pronounced.


The odd thing is as an indoor antenna, there is one channel (NBC affiliate KING, RF 48 virtual 5.1) which is very hard to receive using the MANT510, although fairly easy to pull in using the ANT510 or 15-1868. Most Seattle ATSC stations are at lower RF numbers (i.e. 39, 38, 36, 32, 31, 27, 25, 18 and 14), which makes me wonder if the MANT510's design is less effective capturing the higher-range UHF channels than middle-range UHF.


P.S. Outside the USA, the MANT510 is sold as the Philips SDV2510/27 .


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Bad weather and bad traffic. I only made it to WM, and they had plenty of RCAs on the shelf. Ill see if I might can pick up a Zenith tommorrow.


RS 1364 and RS Double Bow came in today.


----------



## deltaguy

The Mant510 beat the Silver Sensor again last night. I tried for a Spanish language channel (db: -64.5). The SS was getting around 50%, with dropouts, while the 510 was in the high 80's without. It was windy. This was a high UHF channel at 63 or 64. Both antennas have the same facing window, so it was a fair fight. I don't watch that channel, so the SS won't be going anywhere.


I'm planning on bringing my other 510 out of mothballs for a try in August or September at the analog tv. It will probably outperform the SS at that location currently.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

It was windy. --- delta


Wind + trees & a narrow beamwidth antenna = bad performance.....from my experience.



Where can I pick up a Zenith? I have a Best Buy much closer than CC.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*RCA DTA800B1*


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14269346
> 
> 
> My coupons came in today. Im going to get an RCA DTA800B1 and a Zenith DTT901 if I can find them. Walmart and Circuit City, right?



Our coupon was due to expire early next week, so we used it to get an RCA DTA800B1 at a Wal-Mart three days ago. At least at the Wal-Mart (Wood Village, OR) that we visited, RCA DTA800, DTA800B, and DTA800B1 units were jumbled together indiscriminately at the shelf display (all at the same price, however). Be careful which box you pick up, because it may not be the same as the one next to it.


We have set up our DTA800B1 with an old no-name antenna (rabbit ears and bow-tie in one unit, but with separate leads) dating from the 1970s, I think; we connected the bow-tie lead of that antenna to the DTA800B1.


We also have a natively digital 16:9 television set (Sharp LC-32D62U) in another room; the OTA antenna that the Sharp is hooked up to is an Eagle-Aspen DTV2Buhf, which is a clone of the TerrestrialDigital/AntennasDirect DB2 (it is _*_n o t_*_ identical to the DB2, but the differences are fairly subtle) that we mounted in the attic. We can, therefore compare the performance of the Eagle-Aspen DTV2Buhf in the attic hooked up to the Sharp digital television and the tabletop loop in our living quarters that is hooked up to the DTA800B1.


We are in fairly close proximity to the broadcast towers here (under two miles, as the dusky Canada goose flies), but our next-door neighbor, whose house is up a grade and about 20 feet higher than ours, has a gigantic tree in the front yard that is directly in what would be our line of sight to the broadcast antenna farm. When the tree is full of leaves (as it is now) and the wind blows, we get some break-up on both set-ups, presumably from momentary multipath interference.


We get more break-up with the settop loop feeding the DTA800B1 than we do with the Eagle-Aspen DTV2Buhf feeding the Sharp. Of course. And there are other variables that make the test invalid: mainly, the Eagle-Aspen is mounted about 10' higher in the house than the settop bowtie, and the Eagle-Aspen signal travels through more than 20' of coaxial cable, then is split between the television set and a TiVoHD. Still, we offer this as one (quirky) data point.


----------



## Jim1348

Nice thread. I have some experience with my Channel Master CM 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna in an attic installation. It is interesting seeing the effects of multi-path distortion interference on ATSC tuners. With all of the DTV converter boxes out there right now a whole lot of people are learning about multi-path distortion interference, whether they realize it or not!


----------



## wwong

I happened to use a RCA box for a short while, and later switched to a Sharp HDTV. From my observation, I think the DTV tuner in Sharp is better than the RCA box. So, any difference in reception may partly due to the TV tuner itself.


----------



## nwiser

I'm using the Apex DT250 from BB and its signal meter seems to be pretty good, with a range from 0-100, and S-video.


By the way, EscapeVelocity...you're doing an amazing job with all the testing of the Antennas that you've done. As someone who's tried a couple different indoor antennas out, including the Mant510 and HDTVa (with each one suffering from their own frustrations), I along with many others on here appreciate what you're doing.


I'm getting ready to return the Terk HDTVa to BB that I bought recently because, for its price, it isn’t giving me too much better reception than the $20 Phillips amplified antenna from Wal-Mart that I was using. I still had to reposition it from time to time, which is one reason I wanted bought it in the first place...from the positive reviews that some have given it, I had high hopes that it would follow the infomercial saying: "set it, and forget it".


Unfortunately I will likely have to resort to an outdoor antenna for my needs, which I'm dreading as I have no idea how I will be able to find someone to mount it on my roof. I must say though, the three indoor/outdoor ones you reviewed a few posts ago have certainly piqued my interest.


Anyone have an idea what the range is, mileagewise, on that Radio Shack indoor/outdoor one? I'm about 60 miles from a transmitter of a UHF (High VHF after Feb 09) station whose signal I want to pick up and am looking for an antenna that will give me 80% or better signal strength.


As an aside, I was looking at one outdoor antenna on RS's site that is 160" (13.3 feet!) long...and it claims to have a (directional) range of 190 miles. Thats amazing. Too bad they cant make a multidirectional one with that capability.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14269245
> 
> 
> I think Im going with a 3rd gen RCA DTA800B1 and a 2nd gen DTT901.
> 
> 
> The s-video is tempting though on the CM7000.



The CM is more sensitive than either of those other boxes, and also has better PQ.


The Zenith also seems to have a bit of an issue with the video/audio synch.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey nwizer, thanks.


You need to post your TVFool.com info if you want some solid advice.


One thing to do is look for sweet spots or some people call them hot spots. Youll need 12 to 25 foot of coax to do that.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I hooked up the RS Double Bow to the Vizio and set it on the not so hot spot, Oppo, and it picked up everything except my weakest station. With heavy breakups on my 2nd weakest. Excellent.


Then I lugged the 27" Sanyo into the North TV Room, but on the Eastern side and set it on the table which is prominently featured in pics. Hooked up the RCA DTA800B1 and the RS Double Bow to the Sanyo, and first scan picked up one station, Fox 24 WTAT, my second strongest station AFAIK. Then clicked on the signal strength meter and moved the RS Double Bow around on its short 3 or 4 ft twin lead cable, and put the thing back where it started....at a high of 20 on the meter. LOL! I ran another channel scan and picked up my alternate PBS at 23 miles with all its subchannels. But they didnt even come in with heavy breakups when I dialed them up.


Ill get this thing over to the North West corner when I get a chance.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Rammitinski, I wish the CM7000 was available locally.


Can I return a unit and get credit back for it on my coupon card? How does that work?


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14272960
> 
> 
> Can I return a unit and get credit back for it on my coupon card? How does that work?



No. The coupon program doesn't work that way. If you get a bad unit, you can exchange it, but that's pretty much it. Some retailers will allow you to exchange for a different unit, but many will only allow you to exchange for an identical unit. The government FAQ page covers all of the ins and outs of the program.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I talked with Michael Godar and he was super nice. He will be sending 2 units in for inclusion in the round up.

The Model 1 
The Model HD-3


----------



## allargon

EscapeVelocity, thank you again for this wonderful thread.


I never had any overnight gain decreases with either of my Philips MANT510's.


I will politely request that you and others not discuss the converter boxes in this thread. There are a ton of those threads here and if that discussion spills over here a lot of great antenna information will get lost.


BTW, you were so right about the RadioShack UFO. It is definitely superior to my MANT510 for signal stability.


----------



## wblynch

Anecdotally, I bought the Philips Mant510 and could barely get anything. My Silver Sensor gets most of the stations even though I do have to fiddle with positioning.


53 miles, line-of-sight, to the towers.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14272960
> 
> 
> Rammitinski, I wish the CM7000 was available locally.



Fry's carries it. It was on sale all this past week, I believe, for $59.99. And they now take coupons.


I got the CM first - then I got a DVTPal. I wanted at least one with pass-thru, and I came this close to getting the Zenith. In fact, I bought one earlier on to try it out first. Excellent box - but I did notice that synch issue on mine, and when I went over to a friend's yesterday, and saw his (that I recommended to him) it was doing the same thing. There have been other, scattered reports of it here, too. Excellent PQ for composite, and very good sensitivity, though. In contrast, the DTVPal's PQ is horrid. Very, very soft. The CM and the LG is the best I saw for PQ (I've never seen the Tivax, which is supposed to be good, too). Very sharp and clean. But the CM is slightly better, probably because of the s-video. They both even look good on my 50" HD display.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks Rammitinki.


No worries Allargon. However, Im using a Converter Box as a Signal Level Meter, and so here we are.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Alright, I ditched the Sanyo, and hooked up the RCA DTA800B1 to the Composite in on the Vizio.


One thing is for certain, the Vizio GV42LF has a more sensitive tuner than the RCA DTA800B1. Not surprising really. Vizio has always been known for excellent tuners.


I ran a channel scan on the Vizio and picked up all of my digitals with the CM4220 + CM7777 amp on the roof. Then I hooked up the CM4220 + CM7777 amp to the RCA and ran a channel scan and picked up everthing but Channel 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 PBS Charleston. I then checked the signal meter for each station and 24.1 Fox, 2.1 NBC, 2.2 CW, 4.1 ABC, 5.1 CBS were all at about 50%. 36.1 MyTV and 16.1, 16.2, 16.3 PBS alternate were at about 30%.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

RCA ANT110 in the North facing corner window ledge


2.1 (real 50) = 14

4.1 (R 34) = 0

5.1 (R 47) = 11

16 (R 44) = 0

24.1 (R 40) = 13

36.1 (R 35) = 0


----------



## fajitamosaic

Spent the week up at a cabin in Baldwin, MI 49304. Wouldn't you know it, the day we leave the owners ask me for advice regarding a digital box. They get two channels analog now, so I knew that TV Fool wouldn't give me optimism. Sure enough, towers 30 miles away, weak signals, and I've got to contend with hilly/mountainous terrain FULL of trees. The cabin is surrounded by trees, except for the lakeshore it sits on. Fun fun.


I figure they should get a Zenith DTT901 for its fringe capability, but I fear they might have to put up an outdoor antenna to pull in anything. Unfortunately, their association prohibits rooftop. The nearby DirectTV subscribers have the dishes attached to short poles next to the mailbox! And the current channels they MIGHT get digitally will be moving from UHF back to VHF in February... whee!


I'll be watching this thread intently again... whatever consumer indoor antenna ultimately sits near the top of EV's list will probably be the one I buy and lug up there to try out vs. their rabbit ears. At 60 miles (120 roundtrip), the nearest electronics superstore is too far to be jockeying between once I'm up there.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Philips MANT510 gain on high in North facing corner window


2.1 (R 50) = 40

4.1 (R 34) = 0

5.1 (R 47) = 0

16.1 (R 44) = 33

24.1 (R 40) = 40

36.1 (R 35) = 30


DB2 in North facing window


2.1 (R 50) = 22

4.1 (R 34) = 10

5.1 (R 47) = 10

16.1 (R 44) = 12

24.1 (R 40) = 20

36.1 (R 35) = 12


----------



## EscapeVelocity

None of the above units were turned for Channel 16 alternate PBS at 23 miles South West. They were all pointed at the North towers.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

DB2 with Motorola BDA S1, 15db amp at @2.5db noise max


2.1 (R 50) = 44

4.1 (R 34) = 19

5.1 (R 47) = 21

16.1 (R 44) = 20

24.1 (R 40) = 42

36.1 (R 35) = 17


----------



## EscapeVelocity

We can see the interaction of the antenna elements and amplifiers in the above numbers.


You have to capture a minumum amount of signal with the antenna elements before the amplifiers can work to boost and stabilize your signal.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

For the record, the ANT110 brought in 3 channels weakly.

The MANT510 brought in 4 channels strongly.

The DB2 unamped brought in all channels but some rather weakly.

The DB2 amped was topped only by the CM4220 on the roof witht he CM7777 amp.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

This is a preliminary test run for full blown shootout. I dont like that you cant directly tune from one station to the other while viewing the signal meter, you have to back out of the menus and change the channel, then drop back in the menus to the signal meter for each channel. I also dont like that the RCA tuner is not as sensitive as the Vizio(and probably the Zenith/LG and CM7000 boxes).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hooked up the RS 15-1634 to the Vizio tuner.....which is an amplified omni-directional unit. It is a UHF only antenna....which did not pick up any VHF channels at my location.


It performed similarly to the DB2 unamplified. Locking all stations with video but breakups on my 2 weakest stations.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14272941
> 
> 
> Hey nwizer, thanks.
> 
> 
> You need to post your TVFool.com info if you want some solid advice.
> 
> 
> One thing to do is look for sweet spots or some people call them hot spots. Youll need 12 to 25 foot of coax to do that.



EV, thank you for offering to help.


my tvfool results for post-Feb 09 are in the attached picture.


here's my antennaweb.org results:


uhf WPXI-DT 11.1 NBC PITTSBURGH, PA 352° 6.3 48

uhf WTAE-DT 4.1 ABC PITTSBURGH, PA 136° 10.9 51

vhf WQED-DT 13.1 PBS PITTSBURGH, PA 12° 4.9 13

uhf WPCB-DT 50.1 CTVN GREENSBURG, PA 92° 9.9 50

uhf WQEX-DT 38.1 HSN PITTSBURGH, PA 12° 4.9 38

uhf WPCW-DT 49.1 CW JEANNETTE, PA 12° 4.9 49

uhf WPMY-DT 42.1 MNT PITTSBURGH, PA 356° 8.5 42

uhf KDKA-DT 2.1 CBS PITTSBURGH, PA 351° 8.6 25

uhf WQED-DT 13.1 PBS PITTSBURGH, PA 12° 4.9 38

uhf WPGH-DT 53.1 FOX PITTSBURGH, PA 356° 8.5 43

uhf WQEX-DT 16.1 HSN PITTSBURGH, PA 12° 4.9 26

vhf WWCP-DT 8.1 FOX JOHNSTOWN, PA 116° 45.1 8

uhf WWCP-DT 8.1 FOX JOHNSTOWN, PA 116° 45.1 29

vhf WTOV-DT 9.1 NBC STEUBENVILLE, OH 275° 34.4 9


looks like I'm actually less than 50 miles from the one station I really want to get (WWCP, 8.1)...too bad its gonna be VHF after Feb.


My house is brick and stucco, and I share a common wall with my neighbor...all of which as I understand it gives many indoor antennas a hard time. Thats why I'm probably going the outdoor route unless an indoor one with the sensitivity I need comes out.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14275907
> 
> 
> Philips MANT510 gain on high in North facing corner window
> 
> 
> 2 = 40
> 
> 4 = 0
> 
> 5 = 0
> 
> 16 = 33
> 
> 24 = 40
> 
> 36 = 30
> 
> 
> DB2 in North facing window
> 
> 
> 2 = 22
> 
> 4 = 10
> 
> 5 = 10
> 
> 16 = 12
> 
> 24 = 20
> 
> 36 = 12



EV: would it be possible to indicate the real RF numbers for your stations? Most local stations transmit at a different RF channel (usually UHF), and are "mapped" PSIP to a "virtual" channel. Providing the "real" radio frequency assignment would help us evaluate whether some indoor antennas work better with some UHF frequencies or VHF frequencies than others.


Examples from my local market:

NBC is RF 48 - virtual channel 5.1 (analog channel 5)

CBS is RF 39 - virtual channel 7.1 (analog channel 7)

KCTS/PBS RF 41 - virtual ch. 9.1 (analog ch. 9)

Fox is RF 18 - virtual channel 13.1 (analog channel 13)

The CW: RF 36 - virtual channel 11.1 (analog ch. 11)

MyTV is RF25 - virtual channel 22.1 (analog ch. 22)

KBTC/PBS RF 27 - virtual ch. 28.1 (analog ch. 28)


One Seattle station currently maps to its RF channel:

Daystar, RF 42 virtual ch. 42 (analog channel terminated last year, formerly ch. 56).


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fajitamosaic* /forum/post/14275808
> 
> 
> I figure they should get a Zenith DTT901 for its fringe capability, but I fear they might have to put up an outdoor antenna to pull in anything. Unfortunately, their association prohibits rooftop. The nearby DirectTV subscribers have the dishes attached to short poles next to the mailbox! And the current channels they MIGHT get digitally will be moving from UHF back to VHF in February... whee!



Do they have any thick trees on their property?


Sorry if this sounds silly, as I dont know as much as most of you guys about antennas but, if they have trees on their property, couldnt they hide an outdoor antenna in a tree? I would think if their association couldnt see the outdoor antenna, then they couldnt catch them and cause a problem.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14276033
> 
> 
> This is a preliminary test run for full blown shootout. I dont like that you cant directly tune from one station to the other while viewing the signal meter, you have to back out of the menus and change the channel, then drop back in the menus to the signal meter for each channel. I also dont like that the RCA tuner is not as sensitive as the Vizio(and probably the Zenith/LG and CM7000 boxes).



Users of the new *DTA800B-1* (the unit with analog pass-through (APT)) reported there is a means to directly input RF channel numbers. You may have been sold the earlier *DTA800B*, which lacks APT.


The RCA does not have the audio problems which plagued earlier Zenith DTT900s. The strength of the RCA box is the Smart Antenna interface - if you can actually find a SA to try out - and the remote control design.


----------



## seatacboy

What are the best sources for buying the DB-2 or its Eagle Aspen clone? Sounds like these might remain the best choices for indoor reception for the immediate future, until such time as Smart Antennas come on the market - and assuming that those units actually perform as advertised.


----------



## seatacboy

EV: I wonder if the signal-strength meter on the DTA800 is calibrated differently than that on the Zenith DTT900 or on your Vizio TV. I'm astonished that your tuner is actually giving you a picture when signal strength is showing below 50%. My four months' user experience with the DTT900 using various aerials suggests there's really no picture with less than 50% strength. The manner in which signal strength is determined and displayed may differ from manufacturer to manufacturer.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

2.1 = 50 real

4.1 = 34 real

5.1 = 47 real

7.1 = 49 real

16.1 = 44 real

24.1 = 40 real

36.1 = 35 real


I think the signal strength meters are all different between model to model, certainly manufacturer to manufacturer. My Vizio doesnt have a signal strength meter.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14276403
> 
> 
> What are the best sources for buying the DB-2 or its Eagle Aspen clone? Sounds like these might remain the best choices for indoor reception for the immediate future, until such time as Smart Antennas come on the market - and assuming that those units actually perform as advertised.




I got my DB2 from *Antennas Direct* . They have an excellent warranty and I just noticed, free shipping through July 18.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

nwiser, outdoors and higher is generally better. If you are gangbusters to get the low end of VHF Hi at 40 miles, that will be the factor that determines your antenna system more than anything else, with you being 4 to 11 miles from most of your locals.


Disregarding Channel 8 Fox. You would be looking for a competent omnidirectional indoor antenna, with some VHF Hi performance because you have channel 11.....like the Winegard SS-3000 with its reflector removed, or the Philips MANT940. Perhaps the Philips MANT510, though it has some directionality, it has Rabbit Ear dipoles for solid VHF performance. Maybe one of the long antennas, the trio, Philips MANT950, RCA ANT806, Terk TV-55, which all have superior VHF performance compared to indoor uhf antennas without Rabbit Ears.


If you are gunning for Fox 8 in another market, you may want to get a combo UHF/VHF outdoor antenna, like the Winegard HD-1080 or the Channel Master 2016....which are reasonably small. Or you could get a classic UHF/VHF medium distance combo...or one of the new VHF Hi + UHF combos from Winegard. You could possibly(quite probably) pull it in with an indoor antenna at the appropriate window, but that would require trial and error testing by you....the guide on the front page can help you make informed decisions about the direction of your trial and error testnig.


Also, look for sweet spots. Youd be surprised how much the signal can vary from one cubic foot to the next. Ive heard that brick is really bad as well.


*EDIT: Maybe look into trying out the legendary Winegard 7210P "Ghost Killer." *


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Seatac, your big city high signal strength multi-path and interference problems are probably something to consider with regards to signal meters and tuners ability to post and image as well.


Just a thought.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14276552
> 
> 
> nwiser, outdoors and higher is generally better. If you are gangbusters to get the low end of VHF Hi at 40 miles, that will be the factor that determines your antenna system more than anything else, with you being 4 to 11 miles from most of your locals.
> 
> 
> Disregarding Channel 8 Fox. You would be looking for a competent omnidirectional indoor antenna, with some VHF Hi performance because you have channel 11.....like the Winegard SS-3000 with its reflector removed, or the Philips MANT940. Perhaps the Philips MANT510, though it has some directionality, it has Rabbit Ear dipoles for solid VHF performance. Maybe one of the long antennas, the trio, Philips MANT950, RCA ANT806, Terk TV-55, which all have superior VHF performance compared to indoor uhf antennas without Rabbit Ears.
> 
> 
> If you are gunning for Fox 8 in another market, you may want to get a combo UHF/VHF outdoor antenna, like the Winegard HD-1080 or the Channel Master 2016....which are reasonably small. Or you could get a classic UHF/VHF medium distance combo...or one of the new VHF Hi + UHF combos from Winegard. You could possibly(quite probably) pull it in with an indoor antenna at the appropriate window, but that would require trial and error testing by you....the guide on the front page can help you make informed decisions about the direction of your trial and error testnig.
> 
> 
> Also, look for sweet spots. Youd be surprised how much the signal can vary from one cubic foot to the next. Ive heard that brick is really bad as well.
> 
> 
> *EDIT: Maybe look into trying out the legendary Winegard 7210P "Ghost Killer." *



Thanks for the advice. I'll definately check out some of these antennas.


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14276403
> 
> 
> What are the best sources for buying the DB-2 or its Eagle Aspen clone? Sounds like these might remain the best choices for indoor reception for the immediate future, until such time as Smart Antennas come on the market - and assuming that those units actually perform as advertised.



I do not know about the local policy about providing links to, or even mentioning, commercial sites that are not site sponsors, so this post may be out of line. We purchased our Eagle Aspen from (or more properly, through) buy.com, and it cost us about half the price (shipping included) of the TerrestrialDigital DB2 as priced on the AntennasDirect website.


As mentioned in another post, the Eagle Aspen is not identical to the DB2, though it is very close. The bow-tie elements of the Eagle Aspen are just a smidge longer than those on the DB2, and the connection to the coaxial cable is done slightly differently. Wherever the DB2 is made, the Eagle Aspen we purchased was made in mainland China.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14276605
> 
> 
> Seatac, your big city high signal strength multi-path and interference problems are probably something to consider with regards to signal meters and tuners ability to post and image as well.



Excellent points. I live in a suburban location, the local ATSC transmitters are in five different directions at distances from 11 to 23 miles from here.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14276605
> 
> 
> Also, look for sweet spots. You'd be surprised how much the signal can vary from one cubic foot to the next. Ive heard that brick is really bad as well.



This is equally important. That is part of why my experience with using a Channel Master 4221 indoors was so frustrating - overall, it brought the absolute highest signal levels, but frequently needed to be moved for different stations (not easy to keep moving around when placed indoors in a living area). My condo is a ground floor unit, which further makes it hard to get a strong signal. I think a good rule of thumb for OTA DTV is that ground-floor units in areas with multi-story buildings are going to have serious problems getting reliable reception. A lot of what passes for "signal" is the byproduct of single-edge or double-edge diffraction off of nearby buildings, hills, or other structures.


If my neighbors and I install a rooftop antenna, we might look at a Winegard HD7210P Ghost Killer . Time will tell if any of the upcoming Smart Antenna offerings will yield better results.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah, that is what I was trying to say....that the noise floor is higher where you are, and so this noise and multi-path not only is shown in the signal meter, but the tuner needs more signal to noise to create an image. Where as all I need is a whisper of a signal out here in the boondocks and the tuner can pluck an image from it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Radio Shack 15-624 Double Bow Tie
*










This one is an excellent performer on UHF. Its a bit bigger than I imagined. As you can see the bows are a bit damaged....they seem to be somewhat fragile not brittle but bendable, however it still performs great with the bent bows.


I mentioned its quick performance check earlier. Here is the blurb...



> Quote:
> I hooked up the RS Double Bow to the Vizio and set it on the not so hot spot, Oppo, and it picked up everything except my weakest station. With heavy breakups on my 2nd weakest. Excellent.



Here it is next to the DB2 for comparison.











I read somewhere, that you could improve performance by cutting off the twin lead wire and directly attaching a 75ohm matching transformer balun to the feed lines(where the twin lead attached to the antenna).


EDIT: Here it is, tigerbangs at the High Def forum..... Radio Shack 15-624 indoor UHF antenna 


PS - Sorry about the shameless self promotion. [embarassed]


EDIT 2: I also heard you could make the bows bigger with aluminum foil to increase performance.


----------



## nwiser

EV, I saw on the first page or so of this thread you gave a big thumbs up to the old-school Radio shack bowtie antenna like the kind that you would clip onto a dipole.


I've seen other threads on this forum talking about making your own antenna and so I was wondering if a couple of those RS bowties could be daisy chained (just connecting their wires together directly) and backed with an aluminum foil covered board reflector to form a homemade high power antenna? Would connecting/twisting their wires together work or would something more have to be done?


I would probably start off small with just 2 to mimick the two bay ones but if it did ok I might go bigger. I just dont wanna go buying all this stuff if it has little chance of working...especially when I could shell out a little more cash and get one that's professionally designed.


Since there's wire mesh behind my walls (plaster)...i wonder if i could just tack up some of those bowties on my wall (assuming the wall is facing the right direction) and have the wall itself work like a reflector?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Wire mesh stucco walls are terrible for UHF and VHF signals. Your walls are giant reflectors. You probably should consider an outdoor antenna. May I suggest the Philips MANT940, its small and unobtrusive, yet gives you some gain on VHF Hi....weather proof, you can get it outside and above the brick and stucco without much fuss.


Get a highly directional VHF antenna to break out for Philly sports on Fox 8....if you must.


wblynch was playing around with the Single Bow Ties in dual configuration. You would probably get better info down in the How to Make a UHF Antenna thread. I considered playing around with them that way as well. Havent gotten around to it yet.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Radio Shack 15-1634 Omnidirectional*











Here is what Im going to call an "RV style" antenna. Similar to the Winegard MS-2000 and others. Quick performance assessment puts this up there with the DB2. Omni directional, UHF only. It contains an amplifier and a power injector. I bought this used, so it may come with more stuff than is pictured, when new.


These round low profile RV style antennas seem to be perfect for a ceiling mount, perhaps over by a window that faces the towers. They are also good for clean unobtrusive outdoor and attic mounting....remember to look for sweet spots.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Attention lurkers:


Id love to hear more anectdotes from other peoples antenna experiences.


And Id love to hear from anyone who used this guide to make a purchase and found it beneficial.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Everyone: I would also like to know what you like best about the front page and what you find particularly helpful. Suggestions for improving it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Terk TV-55 on the way. When I get the Philips MANT950, I will do a mini review of each of them and together similar to the indoor/outdoor boxes.


----------



## colion




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14281796
> 
> 
> Everyone: I would also like to know what you like best about the front page and what you find particularly helpful. Suggestions for improving it.



I think what is missing is a listing of input from users regarding performance and appropriate information about their location (e.g., distance from tower, etc.). With sufficient input it should be possible to identify which antenna works best for specific conditions.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That is a tricky proposition, local environmental factors play a huge role in what will work best.


The Local Threads are good for finding out what others have had success with in different areas. Have you checked those out? I am planning to reference them on the front page along with an aiming the Rabbit Ears and finding the sweet spots commentary.


As you can see Seatacboy has different issues in the city than I do out in the boondocks. His input has been invaluable in that regard. The fellow from NYC praises the Silver Sensor, obviously for its rejection of multi-path vis a vis its narrow beamwidth. But that narrow beamwidth is not the best solution for many other people.


Post your TVFool info. And your house materials, immediate location obstacles such as trees and buildings. Lets have a look.


----------



## Scrumhalf

I am in the process of putting my OTA HDTV setup together. I am suspecting that a fairly simple rabbit-ear-type antenna would suffice for my case (see tvfool output below) but I would certainly like some advice.


Most stations of interest at roughly in the same direction from my condo but the only question is that my condo's orientation relative to the towers and the fact that I cannot put an outdoor antenna means that I won't have LOS from the antenna to the towers assuming I place the antenna on top of the TV.


My tvfool output is below along a pictorial representation of my condo living room and the TV location (with the neighboring condo to the right). My condo is on the 4th floor, so there is no obstruction from the window (on the NNE side of the living room in the graphic) to the towers since I live in Beaverton OR and not Manhattan.


----------



## seatacboy

Scrumhalf: are the TV Fool signal levels based on street level, or did you project the levels at a certain height?


If those are street level, you will probably want to use a non-amplified VHF/UHF antenna like the RCA ANT110/ANT108. You will need a VHF/UHF since you currently have two low-VHF ATSC RF stations, KPXG RF 4 and KRCW-LP 5. In February 2009, those stations may be moving to UHF but others might be moving to VHF, so there's not much point in getting a fancy UHF-only aerial.

_It's also possible you might need to use an attentuator, since signal overload could cause problems with your tuner_. You have some astonishingly hot signal levels in Beaverton!


Portland's situation is somewhat rare in that all the major OTA ATSC transmitters are in the same geographic area, the West Hills area. This makes home reception of all your major stations far simpler than for viewers in the Seattle/Tacoma DMA and many other U.S. urban markets.


----------



## Scrumhalf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14282801
> 
> 
> Scrumhalf: are the TV Fool signal levels based on street level, or did you project the levels at a certain height?
> 
> 
> If those are street level, you will probably want to use a non-amplified VHF/UHF antenna like the RCA ANT110/ANT108. You will need a VHF/UHF since you currently have two low-VHF ATSC RF stations, KPXG RF 4 and KRCW-LP 5. In February 2009, those stations may be moving to UHF but others might be moving to VHF, so there's not much point in getting a fancy UHF-only aerial.
> 
> _It's also possible you might need to use an attentuator, since signal overload could cause problems with your tuner_. You have some astonishingly hot signal levels in Beaverton!
> 
> 
> Portland's situation is somewhat rare in that all the major OTA ATSC transmitters are in the same geographic area, the West Hills area. This makes home reception of all your major stations far simpler than for viewers in the Seattle/Tacoma DMA and many other U.S. urban markets.



Seatacboy, I projected the levels at a height of 25 feet which came as the default on the tvfool menu and I just left it unchanged. My condo height is probably closer to 30 or 40 feet since I am on the 4th floor.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Id kill for that situation. Is that a window or a patio to the North of your TV?


----------



## Scrumhalf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14282903
> 
> 
> Id kill for that situation. Is that a window or a patio to the North of your TV?



It's actually sliding glass doors that lead into a balcony.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Try a paper clip antenna....see what you get.

Digital Dude Video: Antenna Myths Dispelled! 



I second Seatacs advice. If you want something a little more stylish, maybe the Terk TV-2. However, I am curious how the Paper Clip antenna works at your location.


----------



## Scrumhalf

I'll try that. I first need to get an STB though since my TV is a circa 2001 HD-capable TV (Tosiba 57HX81) and doesn't have an ATSC tuner.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14282903
> 
> 
> Id kill for that situation. Is that a window or a patio to the North of your TV?



haha I was gonna post the same thing....


EV, now that you have the Radioshack 15-1634, and once you are done testing it, would you rate it against the other two or three round omnidirectional antennas (like the Wineguard and ChannelMaster versions)?


I know they are _supposed_ to be all the same, but unless they are like some of the CECB's where the guts are the same just a different label(insignia/zenith, etc), there will be some differences. Also, I know they say you dont need a rotator for this b/c its round and omnidirectional, but I could swear I read somewhere earlier today that people have had moderately different reception based on rotation of thes types of antennas.


Is there any reason why these things are the meager size that they are? With them being omnidirectional, one would think they would want to make them even bigger with the hopes of getting 100+/60+ mile coverage VHF/UHF respectively.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It's actually sliding glass doors that lead into a balcony.



Heck, I would hang something like a cm4221 on the SW balcony railing pointed to channel 18 (if you really want it) and you shouldnt have trouble picking up the other channels from the back. If you dont want channel 18, then the classic bow-tie on the NE balcony railing should do nicely. You could actually hide a classic bow-tie in a potted plant, heh.


----------



## Scrumhalf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14283550
> 
> 
> Heck, I would hang something like a cm4221 on the SW balcony railing pointed to channel 18 (if you really want it) and you shouldnt have trouble picking up the other channels from the back. If you dont want channel 18, then the classic bow-tie on the NE balcony railing should do nicely. You could actually hide a classic bow-tie in a potted plant, heh.



AFAIK, K18EL is a translator for KPTV (Fox affiliate) which has a tower with the rest of the stations in the NE direction from my place, so I don't really need that one.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Scrumhalf* /forum/post/14283255
> 
> 
> I'll try that. I first need to get an STB though since my TV is a circa 2001 HD-capable TV (Tosiba 57HX81) and doesn't have an ATSC tuner.



You certainly could acquire a Samsung HTB-260F HDTV tuner . If you want to try OTA less expensively - particularly if you are unsure how long you'll keep your vintage Toshiba - you could also buy a low-cost standard-definition "CECB" (coupon eligible converter box). Look at the CECB sub-forum for more information on these.


It's very unlikely you will have any difficulty picking up local stations. A paper-clip antenna might do very well. If you would like something more stylish than the RCA ANT110 (Fry's sells for $7), you might try a Philips SDV2210/17 (sold at Walmart and Fred Meyer for $10-$13). I haven't written a detailed review of it here, but it features a simplified flat UHF element instead of a typical UHF loop, rectangle or bow tie. It's a reasonably competent aerial for strong signal stations, and will give you VHF rabbit ears to get reception on KPXG (ION) whose ATSC RF channel is VHF 4. (A simple UHF bow-tie simply won't give you any signal on VHF 4).


If you have reception problems, it might actually be due to signal overload at your Beaverton location. In that instance, you could insert a low-cost "attentuator" to reduce signal strength by about 10dB.


Needless to say, most of us are jealous that you live in an area where all the major OTA transmitters are in one direction (the Seattle area transmitters are in five different locations) and you get high-strength LOS on nearly everything.


----------



## seatacboy

The Philips SDV2210/17 VHF/UHF antenna is a very stylish and reasonably competent passive aerial design. Selling for $10-$13 at major retailers, the _SDV2210/17_ features a very stylish black plastic base, black flat-panel UHF reception element, 36" silver VHF rabbit ear elements, and a 12-position fine-tuning knob to "tweak" the reception. The unit includes a permanently-attached six-foot-long thin coax cable and 75-ohm connector.


Using the antenna only as a UHF antenna (all local ATSC transmitters are on UHF RF channels), the _SDV2210/17_ has slightly lower sensitivity than the Radio Shack single bow tie and the _RCA ANT110_. The Philips does seem to be a bit more directionally sensitive and slightly more resistant to interference.


There are a couple of positive user reviews of the _Philips SDV2210/17_ at the Big River, one which is summarized as follows:


> Quote:
> T_he Philips antenna first caught my eye by its unique "handle", sleek, glossy design....a great antenna, a great value and very practical_



IMHO, the unit's signal-strength performance was slightly below the _ANT110_ and the _Radio Shack 15-1868_ but it was certainly respectable. The base is more stable than the similarly-priced Philips MANT075 or MANT110, plus you aren't having to deal with anachronistic flat-lead connecting cable and 300-ohm connectors plus a 75-ohm balun. Analog UHF reception is fairly good as well. If you are in a strong signal location and want to try out a really low-cost antenna, this is a competent unit worth considering - and it's definitely one of the most visually attractive indoor antennas on the market.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14283308
> 
> 
> haha I was gonna post the same thing....
> 
> 
> EV, now that you have the Radioshack 15-1634, and once you are done testing it, would you rate it against the other two or three round omnidirectional antennas (like the Wineguard and ChannelMaster versions)?
> 
> 
> I know they are _supposed_ to be all the same, but unless they are like some of the CECB's where the guts are the same just a different label(insignia/zenith, etc), there will be some differences. Also, I know they say you dont need a rotator for this b/c its round and omnidirectional, but I could swear I read somewhere earlier today that people have had moderately different reception based on rotation of thes types of antennas.
> 
> 
> Is there any reason why these things are the meager size that they are? With them being omnidirectional, one would think they would want to make them even bigger with the hopes of getting 100+/60+ mile coverage VHF/UHF respectively.



If I have the money, or can find the right price, Ill try a couple of popular RV style antennas.


Ill check into the rotation, I tried a bit of rotation with the quick rundown, but didnt notice anything drastic. I suppose it depends on the design.


They are the size that they are, because they fit on fast moving vehicles, would be my guess.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

AntennasDirect PF7 Picture Frame Antenna came in today.


----------



## spokybob

Scrumhalf: Even this antenna works sometimes at about 20 miles out.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14286259
> 
> 
> They are the size that they are, because they fit on fast moving vehicles, would be my guess.



yeah that's true...aerodynamics and wind resistance. too bad they dont make them larger though.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spokybob* /forum/post/14286391
> 
> 
> Scrumhalf: Even this antenna works sometimes at about 20 miles out.



wow...a wire hanger antenna. that's impressive that it gets decent reception at 20 miles. it's also kinda sad that we pay serious money for some antennas that dont do much better.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

nwiser, would you like to trade my RCA DTA800B1 for one of your Apex 250s?


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14286791
> 
> 
> nwiser, would you like to trade my RCA DTA800B1 for one of your Apex 250s?



hmm...an interesting offer and I do appreciate it, though after having tried them out I'm not sure if I would want to part with one of my DT250s. I'm gonna try to call/visit some other Wal-Marts a bit further away to check for the RCA's. Aside from having to use two remotes and inability to add new channels without a rescan, the DT250's have a decent picture via the s-video and signal meter, and from what I've heard the tuner is a little more stable than some of the others.


An even bigger factor though is that I live in Pittsburgh and you're all the way down in SC so we'd have to do shipping and such. With how much we've all had to spend on these boxes given how little they cost the manufacturer and retailers (


Again though, thanks for the offer.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14286353
> 
> 
> AntennasDirect PF7 Picture Frame Antenna came in today.



This is one of the most awaited reviews. Hoping you can give plenty of time to evaluating the unit, it will be neat to see how the PF7 performs in a semi-rural setting more than 20 miles away from local transmitters with lots of trees in the way.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Alright, so I went to CC and they had 30 or so of April build Zenith DTT900's and not as many, but quite a few May build Zenith DTT901's out on display, probaly about a dozen plus.


I tried to remember how to determine which 900's had the Sanyo tuners and which had the Zenith tuners, but couldnt remember. Ther first box I opened up and looked inside and saw a Green sticker on the tuner module. So the sales dude came over to check out the customer that was opening up boxes and rumaging through them. I told him I was looking for a Sanyo tuner version of the 900 in April build date. He didnt know what I was talking about. I asked him if he had internet access so I could double check the markers for the Sanyo vs the LG tuner modules, and he set me up on one of their terminals. I logged on to AVSforum and went to the appropriate thread and searched for "green and Sanyo" and it took me right to the post by RobertES that explained that the Sanyo had White Stickers and the LG had Green Stickers on top of the tuner modules inside the 900 boxes. I then proceded to rifle through a whole shelf of April build 900's with no luck, all Green stickers. It wasnt looking promising. Undaunted, I moved to the next shelf down, and started rifling those boxes of 900 April builds, and about the 3rd one I picked up had the White Sticker with UBA00LA printed on it. Score!


Then I decided to buy a 901 too, and I will be testing them along with the DTA800B1 and Vizio GV42LF tuners, probably with a Single Bow Tie or the DB2 unamped, to determine tuner performance.


That is all.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14288446
> 
> 
> This is one of the most awaited reviews. Hoping you can give plenty of time to evaluating the unit, it will be neat to see how the PF7 performs in a semi-rural setting more than 20 miles away from local transmitters with lots of trees in the way.



I am very curious about that one too. Its (Im assuming) large 8x10 loop seems very promising.


----------



## Wiggin

About 15 years ago I picked up a 15-624 Double Bow Tie in an attempt to receive the UHF translators of our local stations. For convenience, I drilled out the rivets connecting the 300 ohm twin lead and riveted in a 75-ohm balun. Anyway, I never could get a clean signal from the translators with just an indoor antenna. The Double Bow Tie got a another chance after I purchased a Panasonic EZ-17 DVD recorder (internal ATSC tuner) earlier this year. And, its been providing perfect reception of Tucson's HD channels.


I did compare the Double Bow Tie with a friend's Terk HDTVa. While both could receive all my favorite channels, the location and aim of the HDTVa proved to be somewhat fussy. The transmitters of most of my favorite channels are located on single mountain site about 14 miles north of me. These are truly LOS and I can clearly see their tower lights at night. Our PBS HD transmitter is also 14 miles away, but due west of me and its LOS is partially obstructed by a small hill. When I optimized the aim of the Double Bow Tie for one the channels north of me, it proved to be pretty much ideal for the others. The Terk required slightly different aims and had to be moved to peak signal strength on each channel. And despite HDTVa's internal amplifier, the Double Bow Tie consistently produced higher signal readings. As expected, neither are particularly directional. This allows the Double Bow Tie to provide reliable reception of our PBS HD channel located almost 90 degrees off the antenna's main lobe. It's great that I never have to touch the antenna.


Last month I picked up a CECB (CM-7000) and the Double Bow Tie feeds it and the EZ-17. The tuner of the CM-7000 has better sensitivity than the EZ-17 and manages to receive several additional channels. I originally believed an outdoor antenna would be required to deliver good reception, but so far the Double Bow Tie has been getting the job done. Tucson will have one channel moving back to the VHF high band after the transition. The analog tuner of the EZ-17 indicates the Double Bow Tie is producing only marginal signals on VHF. I'll be testing some of the smaller unobtrusive amplified indoor/outdoor antennas for my permanent solution.


----------



## deltaguy

In the Try Existing Antenna First section, you mention a channel scan. A lot of people get tripped up here in that they need multiple scans due to antenna orientation. You might want to mention the numbers problem that people have with real vs virtual channels for manual searches as well.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14289245
> 
> 
> So the sales dude came over to check out the customer that was opening up boxes and rumaging through them. I told him I was looking for a Sanyo tuner version of the 900 in April build date. *He didnt know what I was talking about.*



yeah...that last part goes unsaid. from my observations, for the most part, the people at stores like BB and CC are in whatever department they are b/c its the one that had an opening when they applied, not because they really know what's going on with what they sell. it's unfortunate, especially when people like us go there to shop and could use meaningful assistance.


I believe I said this on another thread, but since its topically relevant, I'll tell it again. I went in to BB last month to see if they had any Insignia boxes with APT. Since I couldnt tell from looking at the box whether it had it or not, not having seen one w/APT before and whatnot, I found an associate who may have even been an asst. manager in the TV dept. and asked him if these particular Insignia boxes had APT. His response was "yes, if you have an analog television, you can use this box with it."







I thanked him kindly and left, not wanting to risk wasting my coupons.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

In all fairness, another dude, which may have been the dept. head, came over and seemed to know more about the product and recommended the 901 for several reasons which were spot on.


And the other fellow kindly let me use their internet access.


And nobody hassled me for rummaging through and opening up boxes. Although I assured them that I was doing so with due care and setting things back properly.


So I give a thumbs up CC, good experience.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Zenith DTT900, April build, Sanyo tuner (and Zenith DTT901 May build in first photo)*


----------



## golinux

Not to rain on your parade but I thought this was an antenna thread . . .


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Zenith DTT900 Sanyo tuner April build vs Zenith DTT901 vs RCA DTA800B1 vs Vizio GV42LF*


Primarily focussed on tuner performance....


The Zenith boxes have very cool Red to Blue logo lights on the front of the units. They are metal cases which are a bit larger than the plastic cased RCA DTA800B1. Overall feeling of better fit and finish. The Zeniths also came with a Composite Video + RCA Stereo 3 wire cable plus a 75ohm coax, the RCA just a 75ohm coax. The remote response was lightning fast and worked without the remote being directly pointed on the Zenith, sluggish on the RCA which required direct pointing, really irritating. Both the Zeniths and the RCA have channel change buttons on the front of the unit for when the remote goes missing.


I really liked the GUI on the Zenith better, it was sharper(higher resolution) as well. The direct channel add was a MUST HAVE feature for people in deep fringe reception areas. RCA lacks it. Additionally, you can channel up and down while in the signal meter mode, also an EXTREMELY helpful feature as regards ease of use. The signal meter bar on the Zenith is devided into 3 colors each 1/3 of the bar long.....Red(Bad), Green(OK), Blue(Good).....no specific numbers are given like on the RCA which gives you 1-100. All in all, Ill definitely take the Zenith setup over the RCA. The channel scans were much faster on the Zeniths as well.


On to the tuner performance.....


2 = real channel 50

4 = real channel 34

5 = real channel 47

7 = real channel 49

16 = real channel 44

24 = real channel 40

36 = real channel 35


For this test I used the DB2 unamped and 6ft of coax to each of the units which were place on top of the Oppo. The Vizio was hooked up to the unamped DB2 with 12ft of coax.


The RCA picked up 2.1, 2.2, 5.1, 24.1, and 36.1, on the channel scan. With 2.1 and 2.2 and 24.1 coming in at 20 to 25 percent. 5.1 and 36.1 coming in at 15 percent.


Meh.


Zenith DTT900, April build, Sanyo tuner....


I hooked this one up and did a channel scan and picked up all my channels. 4 coming in at just above Red(Bad) into the Green. The rest hovering right at or above the Green/Blue(Good) mark. A couple well into the Blue. When running the channel scan, it went through channel number by channel number and I noticed it hesitated at all of my channels that it picked up(and also 1 other number which it didnt pick up).


Zenith DTT901....


Ran a channel scan and picked up all of my stations. The signal levels were similar to the Zenith900AprilSanyo, but several while not Bad were noticably lower on at the Green/Blue area. 16 was quite a bit lower...nearing the Red(Bad) side of the Green(OK) area. And as before the channel scan hesitated, but on more "non scanned channel numbers." I noted these numbers as 17, 23, 28, and 39.


So I went to the manual channel menu selection....and numbered up and down to these numbers and low and behold all 4 of them had signal right at and just below the Red(Bad) and Green(OK) signal meter levels. So at each channel while on the signal meter, I moved the DB2 around trying to get a signal increase and lock a station. I was able to increase the level a bit on a couple of those channels but not much and never locked a channel with video images.


So....back to the Zenith900AprilSanyo...


Back into the signal meter manual channel selection and moved the DB2 around on each one....and low and behold, I locked 23 which seems to be a PBS station. Eureka!!! (I missed a PBS show on the Cold War through all this...Ill catch it later.) Its signal strength was into the upper side of Green(OK) heading towards Blue(Good). The others stayed right below the Red(Bad) and Green(OK) demarcation line similar to the Zenith 901.


So....I hooked up the Vizio to the unamped DB2 in the North facing corner window....and found that I could watch all my stations except 4(one of my 2 weakest). And with some breakups on 7 PBS Charleston. I also tried directly keying 17, 23, 28, and 39, but all I got was fuzzy analog on 23 for a second.


So here are my rankings.


1. Zenith DTT900 April build Sanyo tuner

2. Zenith DTT901

3. Vizio GV42LF

Distant 4th. RCA DTA800B1


The 2 Zeniths were tight for tuner sensitivity, but the lock in on video and several higher signal meter reading....strangely one lower reading as well with the Sanyo tuner wins the day. The Vizio was handicapped with 1db down 6 extra feet of coax but still beats the RCA easy, and made a respectable showing.


That is all.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *golinux* /forum/post/14290659
> 
> 
> Not to rain on your parade but I thought this was an antenna thread . . .



Allgaron, seemed annoyed as well. But the tuners(signal meters) used for testing the Antennas are important...no?


Its only a small diversion.










Should I move these pics and posts out of here, including the RCA DTA800B1 pics on a previous page?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for sharing your experience Wiggin. Much appreciated.


----------



## EscapeVelocity












Channel 23 digital is the Conway/Myrtle Beach PBS broadcaster. Over 80 miles away! WOW!


I live on that island between the river South of Charleston and the first inlet South of Charleston.


The Charleston towers are 20 miles North East of Charleston.


----------



## seatacboy

EV: at this point, where are your rankings for the various indoor antennas?


I've noticed that the local retailers who carry Audiovox/RCA antennas seem to be "sold out" of the RCA ANT1500. Is Audiovox/RCA facing logistic supply-line delays from the Chinese factories? Or is the RCA ANT1500 is selling better than Audiovox had antennipated.










It was a pleasure to read your review of the Zenith DTT900 and DTT901 tuners. I've taken for granted the overall good performance of the LG/Zenith design, even though there are some differences between various batches of the DTT900/901 production models.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/14289576
> 
> 
> In the Try Existing Antenna First section, you mention a channel scan. A lot of people get tripped up here in that they need multiple scans due to antenna orientation. You might want to mention the numbers problem that people have with real vs virtual channels for manual searches as well.



Thanks Delta, I may rewrite that whole section....instead of posting that ecoustics article.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*UPDATE:*


Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide....YMMV


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with CM 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RS 1892 UFO

RS DA-5200

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors
*RS Double Bow Tie*

Winegard SS-3000
*RS 1634*

RCA ANT1500

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor

Philips MANT510

Philips MANT940
*GE Futura Outdoor*

Channel Master 4030

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and others)

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

Terk TV-5

Terk TV-1 without Loop

RS FM Dipole



Im not confident about the RS 1634 placement, yet.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Consumer Reports TV FAq link added to front page. Updated Performance rankings. Edited Table of Contents.


Performance Rankings move to First post.


Two new categories: RV Style Antennas and Stick Style Antennas - Can Anybody suggest a better name for the Winegard Sensar, Terk TV-55, Philips MANT950, and RCA ANT806?


RS 1634 and Winegard MS-2000 moved to RV Style Antennas.


AntennasDirect PF7 Picture Frame Antenna moved to Miscellaneous Style Antennas.


AntennasDirect Lacrosse moved to Bow Tie Style Antennas.


Terk TV-55, Philips MANT950, and RCA ANT806 added to Stick Antennas along with Winegard Sensar.


GE Infinity "Hamacher Schlemmer" Special and Cornet 645A moved to Batter's Circle.


Table of Contents edited.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Terk TV-2 on the way.


----------



## spokybob

EV: I have learned so much from your evaluations. ZIP 61231 has xmitters 20 to 47 miles away. Your collection of antennas is cool.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

It has come to my attention that the Analog Pass Thru on the Zenith 901, may be responsible for some signal loss at the internal splitter. Thus degrading its tuner performance somewhat.


Thanks spokybob. Thats what its all about.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Samsung Axession DA1000/GE Contempo added to not recommended list.


Edited My Antennas List.


Update:


Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide....YMMV


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with CM 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RS 1892 UFO

RS DA-5200

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors

RS Double Bow Tie

Winegard SS-3000

RS 1634

RCA ANT1500

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor

Philips MANT510

Philips MANT940

GE Futura Outdoor

Channel Master 4030
*Samsung Axession TV DA1000/GE Contempo*

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and others)

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

Terk TV-5

Terk TV-1 without Loop

RS FM Dipole


----------



## EscapeVelocity

My Favorites List.....So Far


RS 1880

RS 1892 UFO

RS DA-5200

DB2

RS Double Bow Tie

Winegard SS-3000

RS 1634

RCA ANT1500

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications

Philips MANT510

Philips MANT940

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and others)

RS 1868 Delta

RS FM Dipole


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14297075
> 
> 
> It has come to my attention that the Analog Pass Thru on the Zenith 901, may be responsible for some signal loss at the internal splitter. Thus degrading its tuner performance somewhat.



That's not been my experience. I had a DTT900 with an LG tuner for nearly 30 days which is the CC exchange deadline. So I decided to get a DTT901 to compare them side-by-side. The 901 held signal better than the 900 so I took the DTT900 in to exchange for another DTT901. The 901 lock on the signal is rock solid even in my "worst-case-scenario" situation.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im not saying that the 901 has bad performance, Im saying that it could be slightly better without the APT.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14297408
> 
> 
> Im not saying that the 901 has bad performance, Im saying that it could be slightly better without the APT.



Well even with the loss (if there really is one) it worked better than the 900 without the APT on my setup.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I would agree that the newer LG tuners in the 901 are better than the previous LG tuners in the 900, but the previous Sanyo tuner in the 900 is slightly better possibly due to the APT on the 901. They are still very close though.


I think Im going to keep the 900 April build Sanyo tuner.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

This Zenith Signal Meter is a joy to work with....too bad it doesnt report numerical digits.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Terrestrial Digital PF7 Picture Frame Antenna*







































The Picture Frame Antenna peformed pretty well. Its fit and finish isnt the best, I found the wood frame itself to be seperating a bit at one corner....but it looks good enough. Also it is larger than I imagined, but its 8x10, so I guess it should have been no surpirse. It comes with a fairly sturdy and rigid plastic stand that snaps into the backside, which is shown in the first picture. Also the coax is permanently attached. On to performance. It seems to have some directionality. You can see the outline of the UHF elements, in the pics above. It seemed to do a bit better without the glass front. I could discern little difference in performance in a vertical or horizontal orientation.


I tested this on the Zenith900AprilSanyo. It performed well....near what I remember the RCA ANT1500 performed....not quite up to the level of the Double Bows from my first impression.


However....I decided to hook up the Philips MANT510, the RCA ANT1500, and the Philips Silver Sensor. And was a bit surprised.


The order in which I would rank these based on the signal meter reportings from the Zenith900 is as follows.


1. Silver Sensor

2. Picture Frame Antenna

3. Philips MANT510

4. RCA ANT1500


The Silver Sensor was reporting the highest levels on my channels, even higher than the DB2 last night. However it didnt do squat on one channel no matter what I did, and another required movement from the 2 sweet spots I was using during this test.


The Picture Frame Antenna was edging out the Philips MANT510 on number of stations pulled in on a Channel Scan, but the Philips was reporting higher Signal Levels on most of the stations due to its amplifier.


The RCA ANT1500 was kinda a dissappointment, reporting lower numbers than the Picture Frame Antenna, but about the same number of stations as the Philips MANT510.


Hmmmm.....


Looks like I really need to do that Shootout so as to get the Performance Rankings sorted out with solid data.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Boy Antenna deciphering is a difficult task.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14297923
> 
> *Terrestrial Digital PF7 Picture Frame Antenna*The Picture Frame Antenna was edging out the Philips MANT510 on number of stations pulled in on a Channel Scan, but the Philips was reporting higher Signal Levels on most of the stations due to its amplifier.
> 
> 
> The RCA ANT1500 was kinda a disappointment, reporting lower numbers than the Picture Frame Antenna, but about the same number of stations as the Philips MANT510.
> 
> 
> Hmmmm.....Looks like I really need to do that Shootout so as to get the Performance Rankings sorted out with solid data.



The Picture Frame Antenna is definitely attractive though expectations are high given it isn't particularly inexpensive. I'm really surprised at the relative slippage of the ANT1500 in your tests.


FYI, have you had any experience connecting two (non-amplified) Silver Sensors together, for situations where primary transmitters are in different directions? How should they be connected? Also, have you reviewed the Philips PHDTV3 (powered SS)?


From glancing thoroughly at the Zenith DTT900 and 901 CECB threads, it seems the "signal strength" labeling is incorrect, it's really a "signal quality" meter showing the overall quality of ATSC digital information being received. In suburban environments with multipath problems and medium-to-strong signal levels, a "signal quality" meter can be helpful when aiming a hyper-directional aerial such as the Antiference Silver Sensor design (licenced to Philips, Zenith and other vendors in the U.S.)


----------



## golinux

This Saturday the local FOX engineer is coming for a visit with his new Square Shooter and a spectrum analyzer. We're going to test the Winegard against the DB2. Boy oh boy, is that going to be fun! I'll post the results of the "shootout" shortly thereafter. Stay tuned . . .


----------



## seatacboy

EV: will you be able to run another fresh round of tests with your Winegard SS-3000? That unit is very interesting because it seems to be explicitly designed to reject multipath interference in typical suburban indoor settings.


----------



## Derek Dean

Howdy EV,

I just wanted to thank you personally for this very informative and fun thread. Your evaluations have been most helpful in my quest for DTV.


My indoor antenna situation required a creative solution, and I got the ideas to make it work from helpful tips in this and other threads here in the HDTV section.


I'm on the ground floor of an apartment building with one window facing towers located 25 miles away..... but with 2 large apartment buildings blocking my line of sight.


After receiving my Channel Master CM-7000 converter box I rigged up the coat hanger UHF antenna... per the Utube specs..... and got 95% of what I was hoping for. However, getting that last 5% has proved to be quite a challenge..... but one that paid off with finally getting all the digital channels with perfect drop-out free reception.


For me, the solution was the Channel Master 7777 pre-amp with the coat hanger UHF antenna (next to the window) and an old set of Sony Rabbit ears. I had to put the rabbit ears on a 12 foot piece of coax and finally found an odd position way inside my apartment with the rods fully extended and in a totally vertical position against one wall.


Hey, it ain't a pretty setup...... but I've got all my digital channels...... and man does that picture look nice coming over S-VHS into my old Panasonic TV.


Thanks again to all of the folks who have contributed to this and other pertinent threads in this forum.


----------



## JargonTalk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14105536
> 
> 
> The Philips SDV 2210/17 is one inexpensive antenna I've been testing out. Retailers sell it for under $15 ($10 at Wal*Mart). In my suburban location, performance was pretty decent but not quite enough to be my "antenna of choice". This non-amplified aerial features a "UHF flat panel" and a multi-position fine tuning device. The attached cable is pretty thin, but the overall assembly quality is pretty good. Appearance is quite elegant. Not quite as sensitive on UHF as the RCA ANT-110, and not as stable as the amplified Philips MANT510, but possibly a good choice for your location.
> 
> 
> One other great feature: this antenna has a fairly wide base, making it less prone to tipping when you put it up on top of a 7-foot-high Ikea bookshelf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 5-foot connecting cable is similar to that used for a wired mouse, it is competent but not as thick or extremely insulated as the quad RG-6 cable I use with my MANT510.



Many thanks for your thoughts on the Philips SDV 2210/17. Reading this forum has been quite informative, and when I read your comments, remembered seeing this antenna listed on Amazon.com as the Philips SDV2210/17 UHF/VHF/FM/HDTV Indoor Antenna (whew!), and for all of $9.99 it was a compelling buy. Looks like they carry the Philips PHDTV1 Silver Sensor and the MANT510 along with a number of others, but for the price decided that it was worth it, if only to see if it was any better than my old '80s-vintage GE rabbit ears.


----------



## hdfan1

I got an RCA ANT1500 last night and was very disappointed in it. With a Silver Sensor I get about 85% signal from stations about 30 miles away but with the RCA1500 I could not get above 65% signal and could not get near as many stations. I am returning the RCA1500. It may work better if you are closer to stations but for my case this is not a good antenna.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JargonTalk* /forum/post/14299802
> 
> 
> Many thanks for your thoughts on the Philips SDV 2210/17. Reading this forum has been quite informative, and when I read your comments, remembered seeing this antenna listed on Amazon.com as the Philips SDV2210/17 UHF/VHF/FM/HDTV Indoor Antenna (whew!), and for all of $9.99 it was a compelling buy. Looks like they carry the Philips PHDTV1 Silver Sensor and the MANT510 along with a number of others, but for the price decided that it was worth it, if only to see if it was any better than my old '80s-vintage GE rabbit ears.



The 2210/17 is a competent though unspectacular indoor antenna; its performance is close to that of the RCA ANT108/ANT110, Radio Shack 15-1868 Delta, and RCA ANT1020. In my home tests, its ATSC signal-grabbing performance was more dependable than some older antennas such as the Radio Shack 15-1838, Radio Shack 15-1857, and some other 1990s-vintage Gemini and Recoton antennas.


Given the $10 to $13 price tag, it's an attractive alternative to test out in your home if you are in a very strong signal location and dislike the RCA ANT108/ANT110 styling. This very stylish antenna is competent but not the absolute best unit I've used.


EV, they sell the 2210/17 at Walmart stores (though not online) - are you interested in seeing how it performs at your South Carolina laboratories?


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdfan1* /forum/post/14300967
> 
> 
> I got an RCA ANT1500 last night and was very disappointed in it. With a Silver Sensor I get about 85% signal from stations about 30 miles away but with the RCA1500 I could not get above 65% signal and could not get near as many stations. I am returning the RCA1500. It may work better if you are closer to stations but for my case this is not a good antenna.



Thank you for the report. It seems that the while the Silver Sensor can be a nuisance in certain respects - particularly its proneness to tipping over - it remains a superior antenna for many locations.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Sorry folks. Im doing the best I can.


Anyways, we can see that instruments are more reliable indicactors, thus a good move for this guide, to take some of the human error and guesswork out of it.


golinux, cant wait to hear your results.


Derek Dean and hdfan, thanks for sharing your experiences.


Im going up to my Brothers next week, he lives at 29640, Easley SC and is within reach of several broadcast markets, I believe....with closer towers and in more directions.


----------



## allargon

EscapeVelocity, since you published this the RS 15-1880 that once went for $40 on E-bay now goes for $80+shipping!










If you think those converter box signals are something, you should get one of the Dish vip HD receivers. Those things are stubborn and flakey when it comes to reporting signal strength. The signal strength might be at 97. Then a gust of wind will blow (Mind you, I have rabbit ears and loops--all indoor stuff), and the signal will be at 62.


----------



## wwong

I believe "*TS-1581B - HI-TECH UHF/VHF/FM BOOSTER ANTENNA*" (from the site below) is a Chinese/Taiwanese copy of the legendary RS 15-1880 and should be cheaper than the E-bay $80+SH. However, it would be a challenge to locate stores that sell these replicates, and those stores normally do not have online shopping setup.


http://www.trisonic.com/cat_view.asp?catID=2&viewid=1


----------



## wwong

I notice that the "RS 15-1880" is basically 2 loops and a reflector behind them (UHF part). So, maybe the reflector is the feature that enhances the performance of this antenna.


Could some folks with expertise in RF antenna to confirm this?


Thanks!


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wwong* /forum/post/14303000
> 
> 
> I believe "*TS-1538B - HI-TECH UHF/VHF/FM BOOSTER ANTENNA*" (from the site below) is a Chinese/Taiwanese copy of the legendary RS 15-1880 and should be cheaper than the E-bay $80+SH. However, it would be a challenge to locate stores that sell these replicates, and those stores normally do not have online shopping setup.



We need to find out what these are selling for! Trisonic model TS-1538 resembles the Radio Shack 15-1862 more than the silver-colored 15-1880. There is also a Trisonic TS-1538B with a claimed "30db booster."


The distributor indicates the minimum order amount is $200, it appears these are shipped as a master pack quantity of 12, inner pack quantity of 6. Although the web site references "99 cent store specials", it's unclear what the price plus shipping would be to buy a quantity of these Trisonic TS1538s.

*Note*: I called their phone number just a couple of minutes ago at 1-800-TRISONIC. I was informed that the minimum purchase amount was $500, and no pricing information would be provided on antennas "because you are not our customer". Beware.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wwong* /forum/post/14303000
> 
> 
> I believe "*TS-1538B - HI-TECH UHF/VHF/FM BOOSTER ANTENNA*" (from the site below) is a Chinese/Taiwanese copy of the legendary RS 15-1880.....



I hope we can find one to test - but check this blog post about a Trisonic antenna. In the article " Crap We'll Never Buy Again ", the blogger mentioned absolutely nothing about TV reception but made other comments about the Trisonic TS-1598B worth a good laugh.


While I'm at it, check out this _EV-DT410 Luxtronic UHF/ VHF/ FM Rabbit Ear Antenna_. It's selling for $1.49.


> Quote:
> _DT410 Luxtronic UHF/ VHF/ FM Rabbit Ear Antenna• Telescoping Rods• Adjustable Antenna Rods• UHF Signal Grabbing Rings• Felt Protected Base Bottom• Stainless Steel Rods• Poly Bag and Header Card PackagingUPC 8 26139 12002 6_



Another curiosity: the EV-ANT-101 Quantum FX 25dB Gain UHF/VHF/FM High Performance Amplified Indoor Antenna selling for $8.97. It appears to be near-identical to the $29.97 Cornet antenna being sold at C.Crane , here is the description:


> Quote:
> _Quantum FX High Performance Indoor Antenna Amplifies With BoosterFeatures:State of the art 2 stage VHF amplifier.Low noise high gain UHF amplifier incorporating surface mount technology.Adjustable linear gain control.Super efficient noise reduction circuitry.Highly sensitive VHF elements and gain directional UHF element.Super FM reception.Tilt adjustment.LED power indicator UPC: 6 06540 00148 6_


----------



## EscapeVelocity

As does the Trisonic 1898B. Ive also seen a Petra branded model that looks the same.


Beware that these units can be manufacutered with superior or inferior electronics(amplifiers) to meet price points. But also can be the exact same units.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14303899
> 
> 
> As does the Trisonic 1898B. Ive also seen a Petra branded model that looks the same.
> 
> 
> Beware that these units can be manufactured with superior or inferior electronics(amplifiers) to meet price points. But also can be the exact same units.



These off-brand antennas might be the B-grade units from Chinese factories which don't pass the quality-control tests of major-brand companies like Jasco, Audiovox and Philips. Chinese factories produce an enormous amount of manufactured product, so these off-brand units are likely made on the same production lines as the Jasco/Audiovox/Philips aerials.


Still, I'd be eager to get my hands on a clone of the Radio Shack 15-1862 or 15-1880.


P.S. For those who don't know the corporate shorthand:


Jasco = General Electric (GE)

Audiovox = Terk, RCA, Jensen

Philips = Philips, Magnavox


----------



## seatacboy

Here are more Trisonic antennas which resemble the discontinued Radio Shack 15-1862 and 15-1880:


TS-1538B - HI-TECH UHF/VHF/FM BOOSTER ANTENNA

Built-In 30 dB Booster

8.5" Satellite Dish Antenna


TS-1581 - HI-TECH UHF/VHF/FM ANTENNA

11" Satellite Dish Antenna


TS-1581B - HI-TECH UHF/VHF/FM BOOSTER ANTENNA

Built-In 30 dB Booster

11" Satellite Dish Antenna


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ive got some 6 gauge solid copper wire, and will be attempting a Youtube type antenna with design and material improvements gleaned from the How to Build a UHF Antenna thread.


Probably 9" or 9 1/2" whiskers and bowtie spacing on center.


----------



## seatacboy

 DT5000 Luxtronic 25dB Gain UHF/VHF/FM High Performance Amplified Indoor Antenna , sold for $8.97 at Easy Street Electronics, appears to be a clone of the C. Crane Cornet Indoor Antenna , sold by C.Crane for $29.97.


It is possible that the internal electronic circuitry on the "name brand" antenna meets higher specifications than the "off-brand" unit. The resemblance certainly is striking, though. Incidentally: if you are contemplating buying one from Easy Street Electronics, the lowest-cost shipping to my ZIP code (UPS Ground) is quoted as $8.07 plus a "materials" fee of $2.50. This is $19.54 plus tax. C. Crane quoted the lowest-cost UPS Ground Shipping at $6.95 (excluding tax), no "materials" fee.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im gonna run this shootout soon with the Zenith. And then take many of these up to my brothers and do something similar there.



Philips MANT950, Terk TV-3, GE Optima Amplified on the way.


Ill do a mini Stick Antenna combo review when I get them. Ill also go over to my friends land, and check out the Winegard Sensar and found out which model it is, and add that in, as well.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I retested the Youtube I built to Video specifications with Coat Hangers, and it was right about with the RCA ANT1500.


Ill be disassembling it, to use the hardware on my improved version.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *allargon* /forum/post/14302511
> 
> 
> EscapeVelocity, since you published this the RS 15-1880 that once went for $40 on E-bay now goes for $80+shipping!



You think I had something to do with that?


I tested the RS 1880 with the Zenith 901.


It picked up all of my stations at the Green(OK)/Blue(Good) demarcation line....many way above. It also hesitated on a channel scan at channel 15, 17, 19, 23, 27, 30, 31, 39, and 42, all of which were showing signal at just below the Red(Bad)/Green(OK) demarcation line.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14298929
> 
> 
> The Picture Frame Antenna is definitely attractive though expectations are high given it isn't particularly inexpensive. I'm really surprised at the relative slippage of the ANT1500 in your tests.
> 
> 
> FYI, have you had any experience connecting two (non-amplified) Silver Sensors together, for situations where primary transmitters are in different directions? How should they be connected? Also, have you reviewed the Philips PHDTV3 (powered SS)?
> 
> 
> From glancing thoroughly at the Zenith DTT900 and 901 CECB threads, it seems the "signal strength" labeling is incorrect, it's really a "signal quality" meter showing the overall quality of ATSC digital information being received. In suburban environments with multipath problems and medium-to-strong signal levels, a "signal quality" meter can be helpful when aiming a hyper-directional aerial such as the Antiference Silver Sensor design (licenced to Philips, Zenith and other vendors in the U.S.)



No I havent ganged 2 Silver Sensors. I wouldnt know how really. But it seems like a possibility.


I havent checked out the PHDTV3 Amped Silver Sensor yet, but I plan on doing so.


Signal Quality Meter, makes sense...yeah. Whitis was on about that.


----------



## seatacboy

 Antenna (radio) topic on Wikipedia


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wwong* /forum/post/14303000
> 
> 
> I believe "*TS-1538B - HI-TECH UHF/VHF/FM BOOSTER ANTENNA*" (from the site below) is a Chinese/Taiwanese copy of the legendary RS 15-1880 and should be cheaper than the E-bay $80+SH. However, it would be a challenge to locate stores that sell these replicates, and those stores normally do not have online shopping setup.
> http://www.trisonic.com/cat_view.asp?catID=2&viewid=1



It will be fun to search for stores carrying these Trisonic antennas. There isn't a searchable directory of "factory authorized Trisonic resellers".


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wwong* /forum/post/14303000
> 
> 
> I believe "*TS-1538B - HI-TECH UHF/VHF/FM BOOSTER ANTENNA*" (from the site below) is a Chinese/Taiwanese copy of the legendary RS 15-1880 and should be cheaper than the E-bay $80+SH. However, it would be a challenge to locate stores that sell these replicates, and those stores normally do not have online shopping setup.
> 
> http://www.trisonic.com/cat_view.asp?catID=2&viewid=1



From the dimensions given on Trisonic's catalogue page 83 (see below), it appears that the closer approximation to the 15-1880 would be the models TS-1581 (unamplified) or TS-1581B (amped).


The dimensions of the Radio Shack 15-880, specified in the 15-1880 manual, are *11.5"* wide by 4.33" deep; the 15-1880's height is specified only with rabbit ears fully extended, and nominally is 38.25". The (rounded rectangular) reflecting screen of the 15-880 appears to determine the width. The width of the Trisonic TS-1581 (with a rounder reflecting screen) is shown in the attachment as *11"*, while the width of the Trisonic's TS-1538B is shown as only *8.5"*.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

GE Infinity "Hammacher Schlemmer" Special came in today....cant say that Im expecting much out of this one....and it is smaller than I imagined from the pics.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14309879
> 
> Antenna (radio) topic on Wikipedia



Ive been shamelessly promoting the thread again.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14311330
> 
> 
> GE Infinity "Hammacher Schlemmer" Special came in today....cant say that Im expecting much out of this one....and it is smaller than I imagined from the pics.



Many of us expect disappointment. I wonder if the Hammacher Schlemmer's description of " The Best Indoor Television Antenna " is purely marketing hype, or if objective measurements may show it's actually a strong performer:


> Quote:
> _In tests conducted by the Hammacher Schlemmer Institute, this indoor television antenna proved to be the best for providing clear channel reception with minimal image ghosting. *Tested in urban, suburban, and rural environments*, the antenna receives UHF, VHF, and local high-definition broadcasts (requires an HD-ready TV to receive HD signals)_



There's no indication which other antennas were tested.


> Quote:
> _During tests, it received four more channels with good reception than the nearest model....._



Give this unit a good thorough test; HS is making some pretty strong claims here.


> Quote:
> _Works best in unobstructed environments_



Good advice for most indoor TV antennas. I'd really like to be surprised and find out this is an exceptional aerial, but we've been disappointed before.


----------



## seatacboy

Article documenting rigorous comparison tests, " Best Indoor Aerials ". Most of the high-rated aerial brands - Telecam, One For All, Mercury, Maxview, Philex - are not sold in the United States, and Britain uses a different digital TV standard than ATSC.

Test results for 44 aerials .
Antiference Silver Sensor SS-100 scored right in the middle of the group with a 55% performance score.

The Unbranded 6463A aerial (which strongly resembles the former Radio Shack 15-1862 and 15-1880) scores slightly above the middle with a 60% performance score.

The Philips SDV4240/05 resembles the US-spec MANT510 and earns a healthy 80% score.

The very low-cost Telecam TCE2000 , a highly-directional non amplified antenna won the contest at a strong 85% performance score:


> Quote:
> Directional aerial that scored best for house trials. Technical performance good. Good value for money.



Although Amazon UK offers many of these aerials, Amazon UK does not ship electronics outside of the United Kingdom.


----------



## Don_M

Quote:

Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* 
*RV Style Antennas*

*Radio Shack 15-1634 Omni-Directional*








Had my first chance to go through your guide today, and thought you might appreciate more information on this model. I believe AntennaCraft also sells this as the OmniState, as the plastic housing and dimensions are identical for both models, and what few specs RS puts out for this model match up with the OmniState as well. AntennaCraft posted comprehensive specs for their version, which I've attached below.


We've been using a 'predecessor' model, the 15-1624, for eight years, mounted in the attic. It's worked reasonably well for analog out to about 30 miles (Denver OTA majors are 23 miles away from us). As its AntennaCraft name implies, however, it's multi-directional, and so it isn't the best choice for DTV reception (particularly in the attic).

 

OmniState specs.pdf 127.0322265625k . file


----------



## Scrumhalf

This may be sacrilege and slightly OT to bring up in this thread, but how do the simple VHF/UHF antennas like the RCA ANT110 or the Philips SVD2210/17 do with ANALOG signals? My CECB coupon does not come in till mid August, so I want to get an antenna this weekend so that I can punt my Comcast cable right away instead of incurring another month's cable charges. I am sure I can live through a month of moderate snow - as I said earlier in the thread, I live in Beaverton OR on the 4th floor of a condo complex and all the TV towers are on a hill less than 5 miles away in LOS from my living room.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/14313576
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with antennas.
> 
> 
> Antennas are designed to resonant on a frequency regardless of the modulation type.



That is correct with regards to 8VSB and DVB-T. However Europe uses vertical wave transmissions and the US uses horizontal....from what I understand. Thus you will see the Telecam log periodic style antenna(Silver Sensor style) is in the vertical position. They both use more or less the same spectrum for broadcast, FWIU.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Scrumhalf, VHF and UHF waves are VHF and UHF waves. They should do fine.


----------



## Sammer

Here's the tale of my three indoor antennas, an Eagle Aspen 2 bay (fan dipole) bowtie, a Philips PHDTV3 Amplified Silver Sensor and a Winegard SharpShooter SS-3000. First of all it's possible to receive up to 10 digital (8 local) stations at my location. Six of the stations are to the northeast, labeled yellow or green by antennaweb and are easy to receive at least on the second floor with any one of the three antennas. One local station is a little further away, more to the East, weaker (a little over a third of maximum power) and has at least slight multipath judging by antennaweb's red label but I really don't have much trouble receiving it. The last local station is even farther away but still only about 16 miles to the southeast. However as antennaweb's blue labeling suggests an outdoor directional antenna is actually the answer for dealing with a very real multipath problem here. Of the three indoor antennas the Silver Sensor if very carefully pointed gives the most stable reception of this channel but will then lose stable reception of some of the other channels. The Philips PHDTV3 Amplified Silver Sensor is not the antenna for those who only want to adjust an antenna once and not fuss. Finally I often receive two more distant stations from other cities, one about 50 miles to the east and another about 55 miles to the northwest with either the 2 bay or amplified Silver Sensor. The SharpShooter just doesn't have the range but is a nice antenna if your stations aren't too far away and don't suffer from too much multipath. I can only judge high VHF performance based on analog reception at the present time and of these three antennas the Silver Sensor's rabbit ears probably are best, the SharpShooter second and the 2 bay last.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Bad reception day. The GE Infinity and New Youtube Quad Bowtie reviews will have to wait.


----------



## fbov

Sammer,

I don't believe antennaweb analysis includes multipath. It's a local phenomenon you can't model from terrain data, so even TVFool has no measure of it. Label color is just signal strength, and TVFool.com does a much better job, IMHO.


With digital signals, it's hard to tell if your receiver signal meter tells you "quality" or "strength." Multipath prevents you from locking onto a strong signal. It's easy to see in analog images as ghosting. In DTV, it just prevents a lock, but it is also highly sensitive to receiver System-on-Chip capabilities. That's one area where the newer 6th gen chips excel.


Thus, the one critical bit that's missing - what are you using to receive your signals? Built-in TV tuner, external (coupon-eligible converter or other set-top box), and if you know, what generation your SoC might be. I'll assume it's ATSC (digital) unless you say otherwise.


Frank


----------



## Sammer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/14317827
> 
> 
> Sammer,
> 
> I don't believe antennaweb analysis includes multipath. It's a local phenomenon you can't model from terrain data, so even TVFool has no measure of it. Label color is just signal strength, and TVFool.com does a much better job, IMHO.
> 
> 
> Thus, the one critical bit that's missing - what are you using to receive your signals? Built-in TV tuner, external (coupon-eligible converter or other set-top box), and if you know, what generation your SoC might be. I'll assume it's ATSC (digital) unless you say otherwise.
> 
> 
> Frank



According to TVFool WTAE-DT should provide 959.99 kW toward my direction along a two edge path and be at -76.3 dBm at my location. Its actual frequency is channel 51 and its antenna is 20 meters lower on the tower than the channel 4 antenna. I've used three ATSC tuners, two CECBs (Zenith and Tivax) and an older Radio Shack Accurian HDTV tuner. The two CECBs seem about equal and do handle multipath much better than the Accurian. Still the meters of the CECBs tend to fluctuate a lot when tuned to WTAE-DT and 100% drop out free reception seems to require a directional outdoor antenna. According to TVFool I'm just 60 feet from LOS but a tower isn't in the cards.


----------



## fbov

My local stations, all UHF, are in the -70 to -80dBm range for aerial signal strength, also 2-edge path. I did my testing beside the TV but my attic mount performs about the same; I lose 10-20dB either way by being inside. I needed a 4-bay with reflector (DIY CM4221 clone) to get steady signal from all of them. I tried single UHF loops, but went straight to a 4-bay rather than buying-and-trying many indoor antennas. Without the reflector, multipath is worse (judging by analog) and some stations drop out, but I only have one antenna farm to worry about. (This with both a Sony HD CRT and DigitalStream CECB, although the Sony wins, hands down.)


You, on the other hand, have a great test case; 6 stronger stations to verify that everything works, then a few weaker ones to see how well it works. The issues you report are consistent with either weak signal or multipath, and it's possible you have both from the diffraction edges.


If you can find an indoor antenna that works for you, it's a winner!


Have fun,

Frank


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is the Homebrew Quad BowTie I built....with 9 1/2" whiskers and 9" spacing center to center between whisker pairs. 6 guage copper solid core wire for the whiskers.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sammer* /forum/post/14318589
> 
> 
> According to TVFool WTAE-DT should provide 959.99 kW toward my direction along a two edge path and be at -76.3 dBm at my location. Its actual frequency is channel 51 and its antenna is 20 meters lower on the tower than the channel 4 antenna. I've used three ATSC tuners, two CECBs (Zenith and Tivax) and an older Radio Shack Accurian HDTV tuner. The two CECBs seem about equal and do handle multipath much better than the Accurian. Still the meters of the CECBs tend to fluctuate a lot when tuned to WTAE-DT and 100% drop out free reception seems to require a directional outdoor antenna. According to TVFool I'm just 60 feet from LOS but a tower isn't in the cards.



WTAE is a tough one to pull in at times regardless of how close one is, from what I understand. I live in Brentwood (so we're maybe 7 miles away from one another) and I've had a rough time pulling it in as well.


From the Pittsburgh Reception AVS thread:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/14227630
> 
> 
> Yes. The issue is a combination of the transmitter location and the channel it is on. UHF 51 the highest channel that will be allowed post-transition. Hi UHF channels don't propagate well in areas with irregular terrain such as western PA.
> 
> 
> So, WTAE will likely remain one of the toughest channels to receive in our area, unless they seek a different channel or the FCC finds religion on allowing transmitters to run with more juice.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Scrumhalf* /forum/post/14313658
> 
> 
> This may be sacrilege and slightly OT to bring up in this thread, but how do the simple VHF/UHF antennas like the RCA ANT110 or the Philips SVD2210/17 do with ANALOG signals? My CECB coupon does not come in till mid August, so I want to get an antenna this weekend so that I can punt my Comcast cable right away instead of incurring another month's cable charges. I am sure I can live through a month of moderate snow - as I said earlier in the thread, I live in Beaverton OR on the 4th floor of a condo complex and all the TV towers are on a hill less than 5 miles away in LOS from my living room.



In your spot with extremely high signal levels and clear LOS, either the ANT110 or the SVD2210/17 should work fine for analog. What you won't want is any kind of amplified antenna. If you're worried, buy these at a local retailer with a return privilege: the RCA ANT110 sells at Fry's for $7, the SDV2210/17 at Walmart for $10. If you don't want to travel that far, the RCA ANT111 (similar to the 110 but with a smaller rectangular UHF element) sells for $10 at Best Buy.


Most of us would be jealous of your location for OTA reception. I briefly tried both of the above antennas for analog OTA and they performed better than expected.


----------



## nwiser

EV,


I came across an antenna at summit source that looks a lot like the radio shack double bowtie. I was surprised to see it as I remember on the first page of this thread you said it was discontinued. It's labeled as a ChannelMaster antenna, which may mean its a clone, and it might just be overstock from when these antennas were still being made.


They also have an Antennacraft version of the Gray Hoverman which surprised me as well, seeing as how I just found out what it was and knowing the general style didnt really take off "back when".


Just interesting finds, maybe you've already seen it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

NICE FIND nwiser. They are clones. Those are very good antennans. Ill rework the front page.


The AntennaCraft Gray Hoverman I knew existed.


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14320180
> 
> 
> Here is the Homebrew Quad BowTie I built....with 9 1/2" whiskers and 9" spacing center to center between whisker pairs. 6 guage copper solid core wire for the whiskers.
> 
> 
> [image redacted to save space]



EV, if you are handy with tools -- and it appears that you are -- and if you like to fiddle with antennas -- which you do, obviously -- have you considered assembling a Gray-Hoverman antenna (such as the one that *nwiser* alluded to above) using the public license (GPL) design published here: http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/ ?


Jeff, an engineer at WSYR Channel 9 in Syracuse, NY, has posted very explicit details -- including a specific parts list -- of how to construct one with inexpensive PVC pipe here: http://community.9wsyr.com/blogs/plu...h/default.aspx . (You will have to scroll down the latter web page a bit -- or do a text search within the web page for: Finally: the instructions!)


The Gray-Hoverman design appears to fit neatly within your specifications on page one of this thread for what you want to test.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thats a great link kumo. Great info, I especially liked the section on cables.


Ill try my hand at building a Gray Hoverman....but I dont think my craftmanship is up to snuff.


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14325142
> 
> 
> Thats a great link kumo. Great info, I especially liked the section on cables.
> 
> 
> Ill try my hand at building a Gray Hoverman....but I dont think my craftmanship is up to snuff.



build a small bending jig out of some scrap wood like flat piece then put two or three small pieces with a gap and a corner so you can bend the element right around the jig..Make it out of scrap stuff doesnt even have to be precies just to make your corners tight. 


John


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *golinux* /forum/post/14298956
> 
> 
> This Saturday the local FOX engineer is coming for a visit with his new Square Shooter and a spectrum analyzer. We're going to test the Winegard against the DB2. Boy oh boy, is that going to be fun! I'll post the results of the "shootout" shortly thereafter. Stay tuned . . .



This kinda, sorta happened. The spectrum analyzer failed just as we were getting started.










Judging by the signal meter on the DTT901, the DB2 unamped pulled in a slightly better signal that the Square Shooter unamped. Using the Antennacraft 22db amp on the DB2 and the Wineguard injector on the Square Shooter, signal strength was pretty much of a draw.


We are going to try again when the analyzer is working properly.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Added Channel Master 4149 to Bow Tie Style Antennas with comments.

Edited comments on RS Double Bow Tie down in Discontinued but not Forgotten.

Added Channel Master 4000 Rabbit Ears to RE & Loop style antennas.

Edited Table of Contents


Need to do write up on GE Futura Outdoor, which was added to UHF Array style antennas.


May move Picture Frame Antenna and Philips MANT510 to UHF Array style antennas.


Tropical Storm off the coast has produced odd weather patterns, so I havent been testing antennas.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

This antenna looks cool.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

There are dozens of RS 1880s on ebay!


They are claiming to have many on hand, new in box. I dont know how legit this is, but have a look for yourself.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14328150
> 
> 
> This antenna looks cool.



haha...looks like it's gonna take off.



as an aside, this evening (well...last night really since its 4 AM here in Pittsburgh) after doing several antenna runs and returns at WlaMart, I broke down and bought the Radio Shack UFO antenna w/remote. It's an odd little creature...thats about the best I can say. I can pick up my coveted FOX 8 from 45 miles away at 50-60%, which about what I've gotten with all my other antennas, and one of the most difficult local stations to pick up, WTAE, comes in at over 92% which hasn't been the case with any other antenna as far as I remember...but the con is that one of the strongest channels that I've never had problems getting at an avg of 90% or higher, is down in the 65-80% range and every 10-15 seconds I get a signal dropout. I've obviously used the remot to rotate the UHF element with 80% avg signal max...and then I've tried moving the whole antenna from one side of my entertainment center to the next and everything in between, but that only makes me lose Fox 8.


I'm definately gonna test drive this thing for the full 30 days (29 now), because as I see it this is basically my last resort I think as far as indoor antennas go...the next step is what almost everyone here says...get an outdoor antenna.


The good thing is I learned earlier that there are places that sell you "towers" to mount your antenna on, which can be set in concrete. This might solve my "I cant get up on my roof so I cant have an outdoor antenna" problem. Then again...how the heck do you raise a 20 to 40 ft tower with an antenna, rotator, and pre amp, and will the concrete be enough or do I still have to find someone with a long ladder so it can be tethered to my house?


----------



## colion




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14328495
> 
> 
> haha...looks like it's gonna take off.
> 
> 
> 
> as an aside, this evening (well...last night really since its 4 AM here in Pittsburgh) after doing several antenna runs and returns at WlaMart, I broke down and bought the Radio Shack UFO antenna w/remote. It's an odd little creature...thats about the best I can say. I can pick up my coveted FOX 8 from 45 miles away at 50-60%, which about what I've gotten with all my other antennas, and one of the most difficult local stations to pick up, WTAE, comes in at over 92% which hasn't been the case with any other antenna as far as I remember...but the con is that one of the strongest channels that I've never had problems getting at an avg of 90% or higher, is down in the 65-80% range and every 10-15 seconds I get a signal dropout. I've obviously used the remot to rotate the UHF element with 80% avg signal max...and then I've tried moving the whole antenna from one side of my entertainment center to the next and everything in between, but that only makes me lose Fox 8.
> 
> 
> I'm definately gonna test drive this thing for the full 30 days (29 now), because as I see it this is basically my last resort I think as far as indoor antennas go...the next step is what almost everyone here says...get an outdoor antenna.
> 
> 
> The good thing is I learned earlier that there are places that sell you "towers" to mount your antenna on, which can be set in concrete. This might solve my "I cant get up on my roof so I cant have an outdoor antenna" problem. Then again...how the heck do you raise a 20 to 40 ft tower with an antenna, rotator, and pre amp, and will the concrete be enough or do I still have to find someone with a long ladder so it can be tethered to my house?



nwiser and all, I notice that several mention returning an antenna that is not doing the job. Do the stores normally take back an antenna under these conditions? After reading the reviews and the caveats I have been unable to settle on the one for my situation but if they can be returned then that helps eliminate the uncertainty.


----------



## seatacboy

 Monoprice sells three generic-branded indoor antennas . Is anyone familiar with these units, which may resemble products sold under other brand names?
Model 4728 
Model 4729 
Model 4730 

Monoprice's generic antennas were briefly mentioned in this thread . The Model 4729 resembles one of the RCA models (ANT585?).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Mononprices Indoor/Outdoor Style antenna catches my fancy.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *colion* /forum/post/14328696
> 
> 
> nwiser and all, I notice that several mention returning an antenna that is not doing the job. Do the stores normally take back an antenna under these conditions? After reading the reviews and the caveats I have been unable to settle on the one for my situation but if they can be returned then that helps eliminate the uncertainty.



This in fact is what I recommend. You can use the list as a guide to help you make informed choices to try out at your place. Trial and error is still the method of choosing an antenna. However the list will help make you trial and error testing much shorter as you will have solid information on performance and mounting options. You should also get 12 to 25 ft of coax to help you find hot spots. You want to use the shortest coax possible with your indoor antenna, but not at the expense of forgoing a hotspot/good location. Amplifiers can overcome coax line losses. And the potential boost in signal is enormous with finding a hotspot/good location.


This guide will in fact reduce the number of antennna returns for the retailers.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

nwiser, you may need to turn down the gain on the RS UFO on what you know to be your strongest stations.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *colion* /forum/post/14328696
> 
> 
> nwiser and all, I notice that several mention returning an antenna that is not doing the job. Do the stores normally take back an antenna under these conditions? After reading the reviews and the caveats I have been unable to settle on the one for my situation but if they can be returned then that helps eliminate the uncertainty.



Most brick-and-mortar retailers tend to be very accommodating of antenna returns, but always ask a staff member or manager if you're concerned. Theoretically, if you bought and returned a huge number of antennas (i.e. 20 in a month from one single retail store), the store might object, but as long as you return the unit undamaged and with all the original packing material you shouldn't worry about trying three or four different units and returning any which just don't work out.


I've encountered no difficulties returning indoor antennas which didn't meet my needs to Best Buy, Radio Shack, Fry's, Walmart, and Fred Meyer.


----------



## seatacboy

I purchased a used generic clone four-bay UHF outdoor antenna, which closely resembles the CM 4221 - from another local AVS Forum user. I'm currently evaluating it as an indoor antenna. As someone who previously tried a "genuine" 4221 in my condo, I can attest that this clone unit is in good condition. In all likelihood, I may eventually end up putting this unit on my condo building's roof.


As an indoor antenna, the problem with using this unit indoors within a small living unit remains the same as I experienced with the "genuine" Channel Master 4221 a few months ago: the unit's size makes it really hard to "focus" in a specific direction to minimize multipath interference. I'll be writing a bit more on this after a couple days' of evaluation, but my initial impressions are: in my ground-floor condo unit, surrounded by other three-story condo buildings, the actual number of ATSC stations I can watch is no better or worse than what I can receive using the amplified Philips MANT-510 with its flat-panel UHF element. Using the exact same quad-shielded RG 6 cable as I've used for the MANT-510 and same general placement, performance is only a tiny bit better on a couple of channels. There are still channels (KONG-DT real 31 virtual 16) which simply don't receive adequate stable signal to "lock in" using a Zenith DTT-900.


While it's very likely I may obtain drastically better results bringing this antenna up on the roof, keep in mind that many apartment/condo owners who are in ground floor units won't legally have access to a roof. They can access "limited common area" directly adjacent to their living space, such as a patio, but not "common area" like a roof which isn't under their control. I'm evaluating the unit as though I can ONLY use it inside my unit or on my patio, which faces the "wrong way" to receive unobstructed signal on the major Seattle stations.


More remarks on using a "generic" UHF outdoor 4-bay antenna in my condo coming in a couple of days. I may also consider picking up a Channel Master 7777 preamp or similar device to see if it helps performance.


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14332051
> 
> 
> I purchased a used generic clone four-bay UHF outdoor antenna, which closely resembles the CM 4221 - from another local AVS Forum user. I'm currently evaluating it as an indoor antenna.
> 
> . . .
> 
> More remarks on using a "generic" UHF outdoor 4-bay antenna in my condo coming in a couple of days. I may also consider picking up a Channel Master 7777 preamp or similar device to see if it helps performance.



Your description of your living quarters and your screen name suggests to me that inadequate signal strength is likely not the problem at your location. What does TVFool say about your reception location?


Here, about 150 miles south of your screen name, we are barely over two miles, as the dusky Canada goose flies, from the broadcast towers for all of the major Portland (OR) television stations, and we have nominal line-of site/* to the towers from the roof of our residence. With an Eagle Aspen (similar to Terrestrial Digital DB2 and Channel Master 4220) mounted inside in our attic, we get spectacular reception of the digital transmission of the local NBC affiliate (KGW, nominally channel 8.1, real channel 46), but frequent pixelating and break-up of the local ABC affiliate (KATU-DT, nominally channel 2.1, real channel 43). The signal strength of the two stations is very close (and certainly sufficient), but the reception differs.


Tentatively, we are working on the premise that the two broadcast frequencies (UHF channels 43 and 46) are affected differently by the gargantuan sycamore tree in our next-door neighbor's yard that blocks our "line of sight" with layers of leaves. Certainly, wind affects the KATU signal, and the KGW signal seems almost unaffected. So we assume that the differing reception is a multipath, not a signal strength, issue.


If your issue is multipath, a 7777 will not help you, but only give you amplified multipath.


/* TVFool analysis attached below:


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kumo* /forum/post/14332211
> 
> 
> Your description of your living quarters and your screen name suggests to me that inadequate signal strength is likely not the problem at your location. What does TVFool say about your reception location?














> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kumo* /forum/post/14332211
> 
> 
> If your issue is multipath, a 7777 will not help you, but only give you amplified multipath.



Unfortunately, that is the predicament. As mentioned earlier, in all likelihood I will eventually place this antenna on the roof, but for now, this is the dilemma I face (which may be typical of many other apartment/condo dwellers) that digital TV reception is much less predictable than analog reception.


Since I'm part of a larger complex, the TV Fool address is approximate. Of the local stations, my consistently-strongest signal station from my own residence is KBTC-DT (real 27 virtual 28). Although TV Fool shows that station being towards the bottom of the green zone, it's easy to obtain 80-90% signal quality on that station. There may be a solid line of sight from my home to their middle-powered Tacoma transmitter. Other stations require various degrees of directional movement.


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14334240
> 
> 
> Since I'm part of a larger complex, the TV Fool address is approximate.



Using Google Maps in aerial view form and a method of successive approximation, it is possible to obtain a geographical coordinate that can distinguish between the respective locations of the H and the J keys on your keyboard. I pinpointed the location of our indoor antenna to five places to the right of the degree decimal point, and entered that, rather than a street address, in TVFool as my location.


----------



## golinux

EV are you sick? No posts from you today . . .


----------



## fbov

seatacboy,

I'm with kumo. Get ultra-precise with your location and TVFool responds with more accurate data. Local topology has a big effect, you can estimate antenna height based on floors from ground level and then add 10-20dB of attentuation for your indoor placement, depending on how much building is in the way toward the transmitter.


See, the unique thing about KBTC is it's location - it's the only one near 224 degrees. What's different in that direction - buildings, hills, trees - or maybe an outside wall?


Frank


----------



## Amiga




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14276403
> 
> 
> What are the best sources for buying the DB-2 or its Eagle Aspen clone?










I purchased the Channel Master 4220 at Fry's for $39.99 (SKU 5264447). It is available via their site too.


Sorry, I don't have enough posts to give you the URLs.


----------



## Amiga









Okay, so a perfect compliment to this thread would be how to mount the recommended Channel Master 4220 inside our dwellings.


I thought about a camera tripod, but the amount of room it would need and the look sucks. Another thought was a speaker stand, but it looks like the max weight for those is a few pounds. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?


----------



## Derek Dean




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Amiga* /forum/post/14348400
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so a perfect compliment to this thread would be how to mount the recommended Channel Master 4220 inside our dwellings.
> 
> 
> I thought about a camera tripod, but the amount of room it would need and the look sucks. Another thought was a speaker stand, but it looks like the max weight for those is a few pounds. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?



You might consider a microphone stand, although it might not go tall enough. But, you could buy just the base (available as either a tripod OR a solid, heavy round base), then have a suitable length pipe cut, and then paint it whatever color you like.


I was thinking about something like this:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...and?sku=451053 


OR.... once you find a suitable location for your antenna, if you have something nearby that could accept a clamp, you can do that.... a bendable pipe type thing with clamps at both ends. Clamp one end to an anchor point, then put a short piece of pipe in the other and attach the antenna to that.


Or..... and I've saved the best idea for last.... how about using a simple adjustable pole. Something like this:
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/...0&CS_010=14921 


I know I've seen even nicer ones... with a rubber stopper on each end and an adjustment piece in the center to expand it between your ceiling and floor. You could check your nearby home center, or a lighting store.


Hope that helps.


----------



## spokybob

I don't have a pic, but I hung my 4220 from a swag light hook in the ceiling, using a small rope. I was able to twist the hook until I had the antenna aimed correctly. I am now using my U tube antenna at that location.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Amiga* /forum/post/14348400
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so a perfect compliment to this thread would be how to mount the recommended Channel Master 4220 inside our dwellings.



Reposting my solution from many pages back in this thread. The DB2 is not very heavy and easy to work with:


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Amiga* /forum/post/14348297
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I purchased the Channel Master 4220 at Fry's for $39.99 (SKU 5264447). It is available via their site too.



Thanks. The two-bay 4220 is easier to correctly aim and set up than the bigger four-bay 4221.


Having obtained exact geographic coordinates for my dwelling and looked at the TV Fool findings for my precise spot (not posted here), I realize my particular dwelling location faces a lot of hit-and-miss ATSC reception issues regarding nearby brick-and-mortar buildings and trees. Being able to move the antenna a fraction of an inch tends to be absolutely crucial.


When smart antennas come out, I'll definitely want to evaluate them and see if they live up to their much-ballyhooed promise.


----------



## seatacboy

If you live in a location where your ATSC signals are in the same direction and won't need to frequently move the antenna around, using a four-bay outdoor antenna indoors (like the Channel Master 4221) is worth considering. I've used a 4221 clone for the past few days.


The problem I face in my spot isn't really signal strength but location-specific geographic problems. ATSC transmitters are in five different directions. The local geography obscures a clean line-of-sight to most stations. While I don't live under a flight path, I am on a hillside facing a nearby busy international airport. Some reception problems are associated with air traffic. When I can obtain a rock-solid strong signal, air traffic doesn't interfere - but when a signal is "medium", reception PQ really gets bent out of shape or drops out entirely.


A couple of channels which I couldn't pull in with most indoor antennas (KONG-DT) did come in intermittently using the 4221 clone. The four-bay design definitely has the capacity to "grab" more signal than typical indoor antennas. However, on most stations the actual "signal quality" measured on the DTT-900 and the actual reception was not significantly better than using an amplified Philips MANT-510. My location is probably typical of many suburban condo and apartment dwellers, which is to say obtaining dependable ATSC reception with an indoor aerial is going to be quite frustrating. This may be good news for cable TV operators, but not good news for those of us who like free OTA DTV.


If your indoor reception requires periodic re-positioning of the antenna, the heartburn factor of handling the bulky 4221 indoors is not going to be worth it. It is definitely a "tried and true" design for rooftop use in suburban environments - particularly with a rotor - but most indoor users in suburban areas are going to find a two-bay 4220 easier to use indoors, particularly at times when the antenna needs to be slightly re-positioned or moved.


As time permits, I'll grab a 50' coax cable and walk outside with the 4221 just to see how it would work outdoors at ground level (not on the roof). As you read this, keep in mind the vast majority of Americans with similar living situations won't make a hobby out of antenna experimenting just to receive free OTA - I really hope people at the NAB, CEA, ATSC and other broadcasting organizations are reading this so they understand my concerns.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Been out of town. I was instructed that no antennas were to be brought to my brothers house. Fishing wasnt too successful, but fun non the less.


Im going back up next week, with the antennas.










I see you all have been getting on fine with out me.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Godar Model 1 and HD-3 came in while I was gone.


Philips MANT950 and Terk TV-55 came in, Ill do a mini comparison along with the RCA ANT806 and the Winegard GS-2200 next.


GE Futura Indoor came in.


Lots of stuff to get to. Including the mega instrument test shootout.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Mounting the CM4220.


There have been some great suggestions proffered already. Ill throw a couple into the mix.





















The CM4220 is also designed to be mounted to a flat surface, so you could mount on the wall, or a piece of wood mounted to the wall. But this would limit manual adjustments. You can see that the bottom mounting bracket without the U bolts can be used for direct screwing into a wall of flat surface.


You could also get an LCD Computer monitor swing arm wall mount, that is tilt and swivel adjustable.


Another mounting option is a bathroom towel rod mounted vertically, which would allow some adjustment.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Godar Model 1 and HD-3 added to Batter's Circle.


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14354299
> 
> 
> Been out of town. I was instructed that no antennas were to be brought to my brothers house. Fishing wasnt too successful, but fun non the less.
> 
> 
> Im going back up next week, with the antennas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see you all have been getting on fine with out me.



Good to see you back.

Im quite interested in the GS2200 Winegard and thinking about purchasing.,

looking forward to the results you get it from it.



John


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Sorry johnied. But we went out to the land, and my friend didnt have the keys with him, he thought it was unlocked. Additionally, I checked the antenna out, and while it was a Winegard, it was model number RV 6004. You can see it is a similar configuration.


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14360250
> 
> 
> Sorry johnied. But we went out to the land, and my friend didnt have the keys with him, he thought it was unlocked. Additionally, I checked the antenna out, and while it was a Winegard, it was model number RV 6004. You can see it is a similar configuration.



Yep same antenna or close to it. is it amplified?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Dont know, couldnt get inside to check for a power injector or off board amp.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14354709
> 
> 
> Godar Model 1 and HD-3 came in while I was gone.



I'm looking forward to a thorough objective assessment of the Godar made-in-USA antennas.


> Quote:
> We are the only handcrafted antenna company on the planet.....The Godars are a group of quality high end USA custom handcrafted antennas. Our antennas are built to out last the equipment they are connected to.Many consider our antenna line the best in the world.



Here are some of the company's talking points about the Godar Model 1:


> Quote:
> 1) World's first rabbit ear to incorporate a 14 spread element log periodic antenna inside the base.Our elements are inside the cabinet out of sight.Receives VHF/UHF/FM, HDTV and HD radio.
> 
> 2) Model One's unique log periodic design .......eliminates intermittent pixel break-up in HD pictures. Reduces ghost images and less adjusting on standard VHF and UHF channels



This isn't meant to be free advertising for Godar; rather, I'm outlining some of the claims Godar made for their product, which isn't sold at big-box retailers or typical online merchants. I hope it tests out well!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think the log periodic elements combined with Rabbit Ear Dipoles will be a very good combination. The HD-3 is a total mystery though. Cant wait to test them.



Terk TV-2 and TV-3 arrived as well.


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14361699
> 
> 
> I'm looking forward to a thorough objective assessment of the Godar made-in-USA antennas. Here are some of the company's talking points about the Godar Model 1: This isn't meant to be free advertising for Godar; rather, I'm outlining some of the claims Godar made for their product, which isn't sold at big-box retailers or typical online merchants. I hope it tests out well!


EscapeVelocity, are you in direct contact with Michael Godar? In common with you, I like to encourage domestic entrepreneurs. However, somebody needs to advise him about problems with the company site, www.godarusa.com .


First, his domain name registration is scheduled to expire in a week; if he has not renewed it yet, he needs to get busy.


Second, the web page was constructed with Trellix Site Builder, and is all but unreadable in any web browser other than Microsoft Internet Explorer. He needs to have somebody run the code through validator.w3.org to make sure that those of us who do not use Internet Exploder have access to it. The current version of the godarusa.com website flat-out fails the validation test.


Third, at least from what I can see at the site with the browser in use here, there is no contact information whatsoever at the site. (That is why I am suggesting that you contact Godar rather than communicating directly.) Maybe if I used Internet Exporer some link to contact information would be visible, but it is not visible from here.


Fourth, what text I can see at the site contains grammatical and spelling errors; Godar might wish to engage a copy reader.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ill relay your advice. Im no Web savvy person though.


He has some great photos of his antenna development progression and also some vintage antennas he has collected.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*GE Optima "The Hammacher Schlemmer"










*






















































*GE Infinity "Hammacher Schlemmer Special"*


The GE Infinity is the James Bond of indoor antennas. It has telescoping Rabbit Ear Dipoles that fold up and slide into the body of the unit, if not needed or for storage, or travel is you can imagine a travel use for it. The UHF "loop" flips up at the touch of the front button in a swift and precise motion revealing a red LED that indicates power on.


It is an amplified unit....with amplifier power stated as....


The VHF dipoles are long with good fit and finish. The entire unit has good fit and finish, excepting that the permanently attached coax cable is of the thin weakly shielded variety(like the RCA ANT108). The UHF element rotates about 270 degrees of motion for adjusting the aim. I couldnt decipher whether it was directional or not.


The GE Infinity has an Aux input with a switch for choosing between the Antenna or another source, on the rear. This unit is smaller than I imagined.


Performance.....I did not test VHF performance. I will in the future be using Real Channel Numbers to report the Signal Quality/Strength Meter readings on a Zenith DTT901 CECB. This meter has no numerical values but is broken up into 3rds, which I will break up further into 3rds again. Zero meter strength will only be reported on my local primary channels....34, 35, 40, 44, 47, 49, and 50.


16.1,2,3 PBS = RC 44..294 deg..23 miles

2.1,2 NBC & CW = RC 50..55 deg..45 miles

24.1 Fox = RC 40..41 deg..27 miles

36.1 MyTV = RC 35..41 deg..27 miles

7.1,2,3 PBS = RC 49..55 deg..45 miles

5.1 CBS = RC 47..55 deg..45 miles

4.1 ABC = RC 34..54 deg..45 miles


1 to 3 equals no video....Bad/Red 

4 to 6 equals 4 no video or extremely bad breakups, 5 video with some breakups, 6 all good.....OK/Green 

7 to 9 equals all good....Good/Blue 


Ch.


17 = 2

34 = 3

35 = 3

40 = 3

44 = 3

47 = 3

49 = 2

50 = 3


Not recommended



For comparison, I used 2 standards...the DB2 unamped and the RCA ANT108 basic RE & Loop.


DB2


Ch.


17 = 3

30 = 3

31 = 3

34 = 5

35 = 6

40 = 8

42 = 3

44 = 6

47 = 4

48 = 3

49 = 4

50 = 7


RCA ANT108


31 = 3

34 = 3

35 = 3

39 = 3

40 = 5

42 = 3

44 = 5

47 = 4

49 = 0

50 = 5


----------



## deltaguy

Let me be the first to confirm that the single classic bowtie can outperform the Silver Sensor. I rummaged through the chest of drawers and found an adapter for the Zenith 900 connection, modified an empty cardboard box for the bowtie holder, and gave it a try last night. 3 different Sacramento channels squeaked when I checked for signal. The SS was only getting one to squeak. The bowtie also successfully got the Spanish language channel the SS was unable to receive properly. I'm impressed.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Added EV's Favorites to the First Post.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for the confirmation deltaguy.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Bump to next page.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ditto.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Three Stick Antennas* *Terk TV-55 - Philips MANT950 - RCA ANT806 - Review
*


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Terk TV-55*





















The Terk TV-55 is a one piece unit with a helical antenna element. It comes with a power injector and has an integrated amplifier of 10db gain or so. I liked its one piece design. I didnt like the placement of its coax connection. I think this gives a clue about the internal antenna elements though. More on that later. I bought this one used and didnt get the mounting hardware and accessories so cant comment on them, but included a picture of the extras. This one was the best built of the 3 and was just a hair shorter than the other 2.


Its performance was very dissappointing.


Ch.

*34 = 0

35 = 0

40 = 3

44 = 3

47 = 0

49 = 0

50 = 4*


Im wondering if I may have gotten a defective unit.


Not recommended.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Philips MANT950*











As you can see, it is folded as shipped. It comes with a good assortment of accessories and mounting hardware including wall and pole mounting solutions, and coax cable. It has an integrated amplifier with 18db VHF and 15db UHF gain claimed, along with the ubiquitous power injector. Fit and finish were very good on this one. Excellent large 8x11 manual.


The Philips MANT950 is an excellent performing antenna.


Ch.


17 = 3

30 = 3

31 = 3
*34 = 4*
*35 = 5*

39 = 3
*40 = 8*

42 = 3
*44 = 7*
*47 = 3*
*49 = 6*
*50 = 8*


Recommended


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*RCA ANT806*











The RCA ANT806 is very similar to the Philips MANT950, as you can see. Not only in design, but also amplifier specs, and mounting hardware, accessories. I forgot to throw in the included manual in the pic, but it is adequate but much smaller and not as thorough with pics and mounting instructions. Also this RCA seems to be a bit lighter than the Philips MANT950, and the plastic a bit thinner on the body of the unit.


Performance was similarly excellent, with a slight edge going to the Philips MANT950.


Ch.


17 = 3

27 = 3

31 = 3
*34 = 5*
*35 = 4*

39 = 3
*40 = 7*

42 = 3
*44 = 6

47 = 3

49 = 6

50 = 8*


Recommended


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*VHF Analog Performance of the 3 Stick Antennas*


I hooked up each of these antennas to the Vizio GV42LF tuner along with the DB2 unamped and the RCA ANT108...and scrolled through my analog stations....2,4,5,7,11(Savannah GA),16,22(Spanish Language ??),24,36,42(Jacksonville FLA).


None of them picked up Savannah or Jacksonville this night....or the low power Spanish Language station.


The Philips MANT950 and the RCA ANT806 performed similarly again with a slight edge going to the Philips, but it was close, probably too close to call without instrument measurements. They did the best of these 5 antennas on VHF analog and did well with the UHF analog 16, 24, and 36 too. In fact the UHF performance was clearly superior to the VHF performance on these.


The unamplified basic Rabbit Ear & Loop RCA ANT108 did alright on VHF and not as well on UHF analog. The 2 above units were clearly superior to RCA ANT108 on VHF and UHF analog.


The Terk TV-55 struggled on VHF and UHF analog, not even picking up video on half of the VHF. Which was surprising, because I thought that maybe the helical element antenna design may have been more oriented toward VHF performance. But alas it was not to be.


The DB2 only picked up 16, 24, and 36, which are UHF but picked them up extremely well, best of these 5 antennas.

*Weatherproofness*


All the units seems relatively weatherproof. I have no specific commentary on this aspect.


*And the Winner IS*



My favorite of the 3 stick antennas is the Philips MANT950, but the RCA ANT806 is also a good choice.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I wonder if the center coax position and the folding dual sections indicate a folded dipole antenna design on the Philips MANT950 and the RCA ANT806.


I also wonder if I just got a lemon regarding the Terk TV-55.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Philips MANT950 and RCA ANT806 are good choices for those who will need VHF gain after the analog shutdown.


Other good choices.


Winegard Batwing Style Antennas

Any Antenna with Rabbit Ear Dipoles

Winegard SS-3000

Winegard SquareShooters

Philips MANT940


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Returning the GE Futura Outdoor, RCA ANT806, and Zenith DTT900 today.....all good recommended units, which were beat out by slightly better units of their types, IMO.


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14363779
> 
> *Terk TV-55*
> 
> 
> . . .
> 
> 
> Its performance was very dissappointing.
> 
> 
> . . .
> 
> 
> Im wondering if I may have gotten a defective unit.
> 
> 
> Not recommended.



Several years ago (pre DB2) I picked up a Terk that looked like this one at Fry's. The simple bow tie set up I had at the time worked better! So I don't think you got a 'defective' unit.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14365318
> 
> 
> The Philips MANT950 and RCA ANT806 are good choices for those who will need VHF gain after the analog shutdown.
> 
> 
> Other good choices.
> 
> 
> Winegard Batwing Style Antennas



As long as you're going to get into a bit larger-sized models, I'll bet the Channel Master STEALTHtenna at least performs similarly. It was excellent on hi-VHF, and not even all that bad on lo-VHF. It was also very good on UHF.


----------



## allargon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14363779
> 
> *Terk TV-55*
> 
> 
> (snip)
> 
> 
> Its performance was very dissappointing.
> 
> 
> Ch.
> 
> 
> 34 = 0
> 
> 35 = 0
> 
> 40 = 3
> 
> 44 = 3
> 
> 47 = 0
> 
> 49 = 0
> 
> 50 = 4
> 
> 
> Im wondering if I may have gotten a defective unit.
> 
> 
> Not recommended.



Every indoor TERK you've tested has been disappointing. The same goes for the HDTVi I got from a friend. Methinks TERK may make good outdoor stuff, but their indoor stuff doesn't translate.


===Update======


The RS UFO still outperforms the Philips 950? Wow! That saves me $100. I bet the 950 is good outside--just not so great inside. However, its outdoor performance is something for a different thread.


Thanks again, EV.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I dont think I did a direct comparison with the UFO, yet, but I would venture to guess the UFO outperforms the Philips MANT950 and RCA ANT806.



I was surprised that the RCA ANT806 and Philips MANT950 did so well....especially on UHF......and that the Terk TV-55 did so poorly(but I wasnt surpised that it finished 3rd really).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Edit: I bolded the channels that I consider my local channels that should be recieved.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14362678
> 
> 
> Performance.....
> 
> 16.1,2,3 PBS = RC 44..294 deg..23 miles
> 
> 2.1,2 NBC & CW = RC 50..55 deg..45 miles
> 
> 24.1 Fox = RC 40..41 deg..27 miles
> 
> 36.1 MyTV = RC 35..41 deg..27 miles
> 
> 7.1,2,3 PBS = RC 49..55 deg..45 miles
> 
> 5.1 CBS = RC 47..55 deg..45 miles
> 
> 4.1 ABC = RC 34..54 deg..45 miles
> 
> 
> 1 to 3 equals no video....Bad/Red
> 
> 4 to 6 equals 4 no video or extremely bad breakups, 5 video with some breakups, 6 all good.....OK/Green
> 
> 7 to 9 equals all good....Good/Blue
> 
> 
> Ch.
> 
> 17 = 2
> 
> 34 = 3
> 
> 35 = 3
> 
> 40 = 3
> 
> 44 = 3
> 
> 47 = 3
> 
> 49 = 2
> 
> 50 = 3
> 
> Not recommended



Does this mean you received NO viewable signal for your local digital TV stations with what's billed as " The BEST Indoor TV Antenna "? Sounds like at best you got a brief "blip" of a picture using the Zenith CECB. As you've become an expert at testing these devices, learning the art of antenna positioning as well as futzing around with amplifier-power adjustments and so forth, it's disappointing that the "Hammacher Schlemmer" GE antenna fell so short of the advertising hype.


Presumably, somebody reading this will submit your test report to Hammacher Schlemmer and to GE/Jasco.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14368370
> 
> 
> I dont think I did a direct comparison with the UFO, yet, but I would venture to guess the UFO outperforms the Philips MANT950 and RCA ANT806.
> 
> 
> I was surprised that the RCA ANT806 and Philips MANT950 did so well....especially on UHF......and that the Terk TV-55 did so poorly(but I wasnt surpised that it finished 3rd really).



It might be worthwhile to hook up your Radio Shack 15-1892 using the same performance measurement criteria applied to the MANT950 and ANT806.


One aspect of the MANT950 & ANT806 testing which I'm curious about: how would these units function in multipath-afflicted areas with nearby multi-story buildings? These units may have some directionality but it's unclear how they cope with multipath reflections.


Both the MANT950 and ANT806 could be appealing choices for condo/apartment dwellers since these can easily be placed on a window sill. The great question remains: in urban and suburban environments where there are other nearby buildings, trees and structures obstructing the line of sight, are these antennas able to reject unwanted interference and unwanted multipath signal?


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14368605
> 
> 
> The great question remains: in urban and suburban environments where there are other nearby buildings, trees and structures obstructing the line of sight, are these antennas able to reject unwanted interference and unwanted multipath signal?


*seatacboy*, have you looked into the *Sharp DTA-3500*?
http://www.amazon.com/Sharp-DTA-3500...999971&sr=8-43 


I know little about it other than that it comes from a very reliable company and that it gets good reviews on Amazon, but it sounds like a possible answer to your situation.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I want to get the Godars mini reviewed along before I do the big showdown with the Zenith signal meter.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Oops. I just read that the GE Infinity has adjustable gain. I didnt see this adjustment. Ill have to retest as I checked it and it was set on low.


Didnt I do the same thing with the Terk TV-5?


----------



## seatacboy

A big motivator to getting dependable OTA reception: the ability to cancel cable . Worthwhile reading.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14369089
> 
> 
> Oops. I just read that the GE Infinity has adjustable gain. I didn't see this adjustment. I'll have to retest as I checked it and it was set on low.(



Did you place the GE Infinity in the same sweet spot as others? Have you experimented with placement?


A few months ago, I did evaluate a *non-amplified* GE Optima 24713 antenna. It had pretty good signal quality, was visually pleasant, and seemed to be well-built....it's overall performance (in my assessment) was comparable to, but not superior than, the RCA ANT110 which sells for less than one-third of the GE Optima's price. The GE Optima is a completely different design than the GE Infinity unit.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14369089
> 
> 
> Didnt I do the same thing with the Terk TV5?



A few days back, browsing at a thrift store, they had the nonpowered Terk TV-4 connected to a three-year-old JVC 20" TV. Even inside a converted grocery store, the Terk TV4 provided very good ANALOG reception. I went through the channels and overall was pretty impressed with the analog feed received via the Terk TV4, particularly since this was in the very back of the store quite a distance from the windows.


The Terk TV4 & TV5 aerials were quite innovative when they were introduced in the late 1980s. The Terk TV4/TV5 designs work fairly well for NTSC analog reception but not for ATSC digital, perhaps their omnidirectional "elephant ear shape" antenna elements tend to pick up a lot of unwanted interference or multipath reception.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14369321
> 
> 
> Did you place the GE Infinity in the same sweet spot as others? Have you experimented with placement?
> 
> 
> A few months ago, I did evaluate a *non-amplified* GE Optima 24713 antenna. It had pretty good signal quality, was visually pleasant, and seemed to be well-built....it's overall performance (in my assessment) was comparable to, but not superior than, the RCA ANT110 which sells for less than one-third of the GE Optima's price. The GE Optima is a completely different design than the GE Infinity unit.



Ive got 3 sweet spots on the North Corner Window that I use. One of them is on top of the lamp. LOL! Poor lamp.


Both the GE Infinity and Terk TV-5 have low key amp adjustments, and I do most of my testing at night after dark, with semi poor lighting.


The Terk TV-5 didnt impress me, even after I adjusted the gain. It also has ergonomic and usability issues, so I wont be giving it a recommendation.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14369440
> 
> 
> The Terk TV-5 didnt impress me, even after I adjusted the gain. It also has ergonomic and usability issues, so I wont be giving it a recommendation.



Understood. I think most of the positive reviews on the Terk TV4 and TV5 are from analog viewers. I acquired a used (older) Terk TV4 and donated it out after briefly testing it with the Zenith box, its performance on ATSC digital was unimpressive - slightly better than what you reported with the TV5, but way fewer watchable stations than the RCA ANT110, Radio Shack 15-1868 or the Classic Single UHF Outline Bow Tie.


Moral of the story: some innovative antenna designs (like the Terk TV4 and TV5) which work for analog TV may be disappointing and ineffective for receiving digital TV.


----------



## seatacboy

Has anyone found "discount" or "dollar-plus" stores peddling the various Trisonic-branded clone indoor antennas? I've seen some Trisonic products locally but the only antenna I've found lately has been the "Panasonic-style" slip-on replacement rod VHF rabbit ears, sold for $1.69.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I retested the GE Infinity last night, but it was a bad reception day, according to the DB2. Ill try again soon. Busy this weekend.


----------



## Caskorak

WOW!!!! Awesome thread! There is SO MUCH information here - I am still trying to take it all in! I really wish I'd have found this sooner!


Congratz to all on an Amazing body of information.


I am still somewhat new to OTA, Antennas, and the new DTV revolution. Overpriced Cable and Satellite companies have frustrasted me to no end, so I am returning to the "free" TV.


On to my question: I am currently using a Terk HDTVa with a Zenith DTT901. The 901 is working beautifully, but the HDTVa is Very directional (moving it a lot to pick up different stations). Also it is struggling to bring in WXTF-DT (Fox Philly).


Would it be better to try a different antenna, or try to boost the signal with a different signal booster (the HDTVa comes with a small one)?


Also as anyone near Philly tried the RCA ANT537?


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14332051
> 
> 
> I purchased a used generic clone four-bay UHF outdoor antenna, which closely resembles the CM 4221 - from another local AVS Forum user. I'm currently evaluating it as an indoor antenna. .....
> 
> As an indoor antenna, the problem with using this unit indoors within a small living unit [is that] the unit's size makes it really hard to "focus" in a specific direction to minimize multipath interference.



I'm delighted to update my report! I moved some belongings from a different corner of my north-facing bedroom, and have finally found a position where the CM 4221 clone can pull in a viewable picture on all 14 Seattle-area DTV stations! While reception is not 100% reliable, this is the first time I've actually been able to run a channel scan and obtain a viewable picture on ALL of my local stations. Keep in mind this is a miserable location for DTV, in that my condo unit is a couple of feet below ground, my north-facing view is overlooking a parking lot, and is surrounded by several three-story-high condo buildings and trees.


With the CM 4221 placed near, but not directly in front of, a north-facing window, and without rotating the antenna around - I present signal quality/strength numbers. I'm using EV's signal-quality scheme (1 to 10 signal quality rating) using the same Zenith DTT-900/DTT-901 CECB signal-strength display for each channel:


KOMO 38 7

KING 48 5

KIRO 39 6

KCTS 41 7

KSTW 36 8

KCPQ 18 5

KONG 31 7

KTBW 14 5

KMYQ 25 8

KBTC 27 7

KWPX 32 7

KWBF 42 7

KHCV 44 6

KUNS 50 7


While it is conceivable I had an unusual "good reception" afternoon, I ran similar tests using an RCA ANT-110 and wasn't able to duplicate these numbers. I've finally found a spot where the Channel Master 4221 will get me a total of 14 channels (total of 34 subchannels!).


The used clone 4221 I acquired came equipped with an excellent 3-foot mounting mast, I now need to go to the hardware store to find something like a flag-pole base so the antenna can be placed securely in the bedroom corner without accidentally falling over. I may want to be able to manually turn the position when I want to watch something on KCPQ (Fox) since signal strength can be up around 8 if I rotate it towards the west.


I might still explore getting a Channel Master preamplifier, since there are some breakups caused when neighbors are walking in front of my north-facing window to go to their cars - and since I'd like to split the signal to feed my living room TV with excellent OTA signal.


While this remains a work in progress, yours truly is very happy to report getting viewable reception on a total of 34 subchannels!


P.S. I'm using a 12-foot run of Philips-branded quad-shielded RG6 coax running from the CM4221 to the CECB.


----------



## manno

Hi, I just wanted to thank EV and everyone for the great info on antennas here. I live in a strong signal area in Philadelphia, just 4.4 miles from most of my transmitters. The Delta shaped RE/loop 1868 from radio shack works very well for me thru my Zenith dtt901 stb. I just put it on top of the TV aimed in the general direction of the tower and it pulled in about 20 stations many of which are sub channells.

I did consider getting a DB2, since it was highly rated. In the installation instructions on the Antennas Direct website, the mentioned that if you are located under 5 miles from the transmitter, you may need an attenuator.

I am glad I came across all these reviews. Thanks.


----------



## Caskorak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *manno* /forum/post/14377903
> 
> 
> I live in a strong signal area in Philadelphia, just 4.4 miles from most of my transmitters.



I am in Telford and about 17 miles from the closest transmitter.


----------



## Buckeye911




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Caskorak* /forum/post/14379587
> 
> 
> I am in Telford and about 17 miles from the closest transmitter.



Wow, I've actually been to Telford a few times. The parents of one of my old friends live there. I lived in West Conshohocken for eight years and used to get up there occasionally, it sure is some beautiful country.







I would imagine you'd probably need an outdoor antenna to pick up those Philly channels.


----------



## Amiga




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *manno* /forum/post/14377903
> 
> 
> I did consider getting a DB2, since it was highly rated.



I picked up the Channel Master 4220 , a DB2 clone, at Fry's for $40. I couldn't be happier. I live in a downtown high-rise with tinted windows, no balcony, and another high-rise directly across the street.








I'm dying to hear a review about the new ClearStream1 and ClearStream2 antennas. I may take the plunge on one of them since Antennas Direct has a 90 day return policy . Wow, I take that back. Buying directly costs so much more than going through Buy.com, $46.99 and $59.99 .


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Amiga* /forum/post/14380239
> 
> 
> I picked up the Channel Master 4220 , a DB2 clone, at Fry's for $40. I couldn't be happier. I live in a downtown high-rise with tinted windows, no balcony, and another high-rise directly across the street.



A great many OTA viewers are going to be happier with the real-world day-to-day reception obtained by a 4220 or DB2 than by most indoor antenna designs. The 4220 / DB2 units are not too cumbersome to place indoors.


I'm using the "big brother", a 4221 clone (bought used for very little $$). I'm very pleased with it, but it is a bit harder to maneuver around for indoor placement than the smaller 4220 / DB2 units. I strongly recommend urban and suburban viewers try using the smaller 4220 or DB2 first, though the 4221 is technically a little bit "better" being a four-bay unit.


Once you do get these antennas placed in the optimum spot indoors, you will get really good overall DTV reception - which is essential in order to actually enjoy high definition 720p and 1080i telecasts as well as standard-definition DTV. The Clearstream 1 and Clearstream 2 antennas do look promising.


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14380525
> 
> 
> A great many OTA viewers are going to be happier with the real-world day-to-day reception obtained by a 4220 or DB2 than by most indoor antenna designs. The 4220 / DB2 units are not too cumbersome to place indoors.
> 
> 
> The Clearstream 1 and Clearstream 2 antennas do look promising.



The Eagle Aspen is very similar to the DB2, just fractions of an inch longer in the bow ties and wider in the reflecting screen. The Channel Master 4220 is a heftier, and apparently somewhat higher quality, assemblage. But, as the Eagle Aspen sells for a quarter of the price of the other two, it is hard to figure why anyone would buy a DB2 or 4220.


The distance antenna that intrigues me is WSYR Channel 9's ambitious DIY project, *v e r y* - detailed instructions -- including templates and measuring guides -- for the construction of which are here: Assembly Instructions (WARNING: 22MB file!); and the close-in but multipath-rejecting antennas that interest me are the Winegard SS-3000, which EV has tested only as a distance antenna, and the Sharp DTA-3500 .


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kumo* /forum/post/14381067
> 
> 
> The Eagle Aspen is very similar to the DB2, just fractions of an inch longer in the bow ties and wider in the reflecting screen. The Channel Master 4220 is a heftier, and apparently somewhat higher quality, assemblage. But, as the Eagle Aspen sells for a quarter of the price of the other two, it is hard to figure why anyone would buy a DB2 or 4220.



The Eagle Aspen DTV2BUHF is worth considering for indoor placement, particularly if you can buy cheaper than the CM 4220 and DB2.


----------



## spokybob




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14374976
> 
> 
> P.S. I'm using a 12-foot run of Philips-branded quad-shielded RG6 coax running from the CM4221 to the CECB.



Do you believe the RG6 is noticeably better on such a short run?


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14382319
> 
> 
> The Eagle Aspen DTV2BUHF is worth considering for indoor placement, particularly if you can buy cheaper than the CM 4220 and DB2.



We mounted ours in the attic. Our expenditure for the Eagle Aspen was roughly evenly divided between the shipping cost and the unit's $10 price.


Like you, we connected by RG6 cable, but ours is a 25-foot run, partially along the outside of the house, where it is exposed to weather.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14369005
> 
> 
> I want to get the Godars mini reviewed along before I do the big showdown with the Zenith signal meter.



Any findings you care to share about the Godar aerials?


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spokybob* /forum/post/14382683
> 
> 
> Do you believe the RG6 is noticeably better on such a short run?



Spokybob, probably no. For a 12-foot run indoors, RG59 should be sufficient. I used this same set of 12-foot set of quad-shielded RG6 cable I used with the Philips MANT510, rather than the cable which was included in the box by Philips.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14371918
> 
> 
> I retested the GE Infinity last night, but it was a bad reception day, according to the DB2. Ill try again soon. Busy this weekend.



Retested yet? We have encountered a few amplified antennas which actually perform extremely poorly when the amp is turned off or very low, it will be interesting if the GE Infinity performs reasonably competently when amplified.


----------



## seatacboy

 TV Antennas posted by "Collector Kevin".


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Antenna Shootout


4.1 ABC = RC 34..54 deg..45 miles

36.1 MyTV = RC 35..41 deg..27 miles

24.1 Fox = RC 40..41 deg..27 miles

16.1,2,3 PBS = RC 44..294 deg..23 miles

5.1 CBS = RC 47..55 deg..45 miles

7.1,2,3 PBS = RC 49..55 deg..45 miles

2.1,2 NBC & CW = RC 50..55 deg..45 miles



1 to 3 equals no video....Bad/Red 

4 to 6 equals 4 no video or extremely bad breakups, 5 video with some breakups, 6 all good.....OK/Green 

7 to 9 equals all good....Good/Blue 



Terk TV-55


4

3

6

5

3

6

7


Philips MANT950


3

4

7

6

4

6

8


RS 1880


6

6

8

6

5

5

9


DB2


5

6

8

6

4

5

8


GE Infinity


3

3

5

5

3

3

5


RCA ANT108


3

3

6

6

3

4

6


RS 1868 Delta


3

3

6

6

3

4

6


RS Double Bow


4

5

8

6

4

5

9


Silver Sensor


4

4

7

6

4

5

8


RS 1634 RV Style Omni


4

4

7

7

3

4

6


RS 1892 UFO


6

5

9

6

5

6

8


RCA ANT1500


3

4

7

7

4

4

6


RS Single Bow


3

4

7

7

5

6

7


Philips MANT510


3

4

7

6

3

5

7


Picture Frame Antenna


3

3

7

6

3

5

7


Terk HDTVa


4

5

8

6

5

6

8


Terk TV-3


3

4

7

6

3

5

8


Terk TV-2


3

3

6

5

3

5

6


Winegard SS-3000


5

5

7

7

5

5

8


RS DA-5200


4

5

7

6

5

5

7


Philips MANT940


4

5

7

7

5

6

7


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Can someone put that in a table or chart or something?


----------



## seatacboy

Total raw score listed first, followed by antenna name. I'll prepare a second listing using "weighted" scores (signal strength 6 and higher).


45: RS 1880

45: RS 1892 UFO

42: DB2

42: Terk HDTVa

42: Winegard SS-3000

41: Philips MANT940

41: RS Double Bow

39: RS Single Bow

39: RS DA-5200

38: Silver Sensor

38: Philips MANT950

36: Terk TV-3

35: Philips MANT510

35: RCA ANT1500

35: RS 1634 RV Style

34: Picture Frame Antenna

34: Terk TV55

31: RCA ANT108

31: RS 15-1868 Delta

31: Terk TV-2

27: GE Infinity


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think the MANT940 score is 41....and the Delta is missing.


----------



## seatacboy

I've ranked these by "weighting" the total scores from EV's shoot out to only include signal-strength scores of 6 or higher. The results may surprise a few of you - and keep in mind a lot of mediocre antennas were omitted from EV's shoot out. The antennas evaluated here are regarded as "cream of the crop" antennas!


35 (45): RS 1892 UFO

35 (45): RS 1880

28 (42): DB2

28 (42): Terk HDTVa

27 (41): Philips MANT940

27 (38): Philips MANT950

27 (39): RS Single Bow

23 (41): RS Double Bow

22 (42): Winegard SS-3000

21 (38): Silver Sensor

21 (36): Terk TV-3

20 (39): RS DA-5200

20 (35): Philips MANT510

20 (35): RCA ANT1500

20 (35): RS 1634 RV Style

20 (34): Picture Frame Antenna

19 (34): Terk TV55

18 (31): RCA ANT108

18 (31) RS 1868 Delta

12 (31): Terk TV-2

zero (27): GE Infinity


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The RS UFO and the RS 1880 should be equal on the weighted list.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14386576
> 
> 
> The RS UFO and the RS 1880 should be equal on the weighted list.



My math error. You are correct, both come out at 35.


----------



## wwong

EV, thanks for all this test results, which should benefit lots of people still struggling with OTA reception. I hope the attached file will be easier for other readers.


Best regards to all those that contributed.

 

EV_Antenna_2008July28.doc 91.5k . file


----------



## seatacboy

Based on EV's shoot out test results, with the hypothesis that a "6" signal level as measured by the Zenith CECB is a good benchmark.


Why haven't any of the sponsors of the AVS Forum offered this kind of critical testing program of DTV antennas?

FIVE STATIONS AT “6” or Higher

35 (45): RS 1892 UFO

35 (45): RS 1880

FOUR STATIONS AT “6” or higher

28 (42): DB2

28 (42): Terk HDTVa

27 (39): RS Single Bow

27 (41): Philips MANT940

THREE STATIONS AT “6” or higher

27 (38): Philips MANT950

23 (41): RS Double Bow

22 (42): Winegard SS-3000

21 (36): Terk TV-3

21 (38): Silver Sensor

20 (39): RS DA-5200

20 (35): Philips MANT510

20 (35): RCA ANT1500

20 (35): RS 1634 RV Style

20 (34): Picture Frame Antenna

19 (34): Terk TV55

18 (31): RCA ANT108

18 (31): RS 1868 Delta

TWO STATIONS AT “6” or higher

12 (31): Terk TV-2

NO STATIONS AT "6" or higher

zero (27): GE Infinity


----------



## seatacboy

EV: I wonder if the GE Infinity antenna you obtained is defective.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

No, I think the element is smallish giving poor capture, and who knows the quality of the amplifier on top of that.


The Terk TV-3 amped and TV-2 unamped have nice largish thick loops with lots of surface area for signal transfer.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

What happens when you weight them at 5 and up?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Single Bow seems a bit out of its proper place. ???


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14386643
> 
> 
> The Terk TV-3 amped and TV-2 unamped have nice largish thick loops with lots of surface area for signal transfer.



The Terk TV3 and TV2 appear to have good craftsmanship, but this was a competition among the "cream of the crop".


Hammacher Schlemmer is free to believe whatever they want - it's a free country - but their GE Infinity "best indoor TV antenna" didn't win this comparison shoot-out.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14386678
> 
> 
> The Single Bow seems a bit out of its proper place. ???



EV, you can double-check my math if you wish. If you'd like, you can calculate rankings for strength of "5" and up, but my guess is "6" is probably a more useful threshold since very few of us really want to put up with signal break-up.


Perhaps sometime you will have another opportunity to run the same test shoot-out with these antennas, and see if the results remain consistent? My suspicion is you are undertaking the kind of scientific testing and evaluation that so-called consumer advocates like Consumers' Digest and Consumers' Union should be doing.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Terk TV-55 did better than the other night. Dont know why?


----------



## wwong

I added "average score per channel" and assuming only 6 and above would be a good choice. Only the top few would receive most of the channels, and be watchable.


Take a second look into the data, there is something to do with the channel transmitter themselves. Generally, NBC is much better than other channels, and can be received by all antenna. And all antenna behave the same with the NBC, pretty strong as compared with ABC, which only 2 antenna can pick them up with relatively weak signal. It might be the station owners to fix the problem from their end, rather than all of us, trying to receive their signal, to struggle.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think that my location is a torture test, as Im in a fringe area for reception....5 may be a better number for the weighted score. The move from 3 to 4 also seems to be significant by the way the tuner meter responds(or doesnt respond). A lot of the out of market stations that I get(on the meter) often sit at 3 just under the Red/Green demarcation line, and no matter what I do(move from hot spot to hot spot and other locations) I cant get it to move above that line. Whereas when I get to 4 and can get a bit of fluctuation on the meter by moving it around.


I decided not to report what I dont consider my local stations, in order to keep the data managable.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wwong* /forum/post/14386727
> 
> 
> I added "average score per channel" and assuming only 6 and above would be a good choice. Only the top few would receive most of the channels, and be watchable.



Your chart is brilliant!


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14386757
> 
> 
> I think that my location is a torture test, as Im in a fringe area for reception....5 may be a better number for the weighted score. The move from 3 to 4 also seems to be significant by the way the tuner meter responds(or doesnt respond). A lot of the out of market stations that I get(on the meter) often sit at 3 just under the Red/Green demarcation line, and no matter what I do(move from hot spot to hot spot and other locations) I cant get it to move above that line. Whereas when I get to 4 and can get a bit of fluctuation on the meter by moving it around.



EV, during your testing, were the antennas all placed in the same location? Also, during testing, did you move or rotate the antennas around?


In my experience as a suburban user, stations which come in roughly as a "5" do tend to dip below usability, which is why the "6" level is (IMHO) more practical to measure usable reception. For fun, I'll make a quick list of antennas sorted by number of stations received at "5" or higher.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Id like to put something like that on the front page.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I moved the antennas around to the 3 hotspots in my North facing window and noted the best score for each station.


Some antennas were less sensitive to placement. So in making my final analysis, Id like to place them above others with similar scores.


Additionally, I think that unamped units that scored equal to amped units should be placed above the others with the similar score, as the elements were clearly superior, with no amp help.


For instance, the DB2, the Terk HDTVa, and the Winegard SS-3000....I would list in this order.


The DB2 - Unamped and less sensitive to placement

Winegard SS-3000 less sensitive to placement/direction and amped

Terk HDTVa more sensitive to placement and amped


----------



## seatacboy

Stations received at “5” or higher signal, a fairly lenient standard:

Received seven stations:

Radio Shack 1880

Radio Shack 1892 UFO

Winegard SS-3000

Received six stations:

Antennas Direct DB2

Terk HDTVa

Philips MANT940

Radio Shack DA-5200

Received five stations:

Radio Shack Double Bow Tie

Radio Shack Single Bow Tie

Philips MANT950

Received four stations:

Silver Sensor

Terk TV3

Terk TV2

Philips MANT510

Picture Frame Antenna

Terk TV55

Received three stations:

RS 1634 RV Style Omni

RCA ANT1500

RCA ANT108

RS 1868 Delta

GE Infinity


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wwong* /forum/post/14386727
> 
> 
> I added "average score per channel" and assuming only 6 and above would be a good choice. Only the top few would receive most of the channels, and be watchable.
> 
> 
> Take a second look into the data, there is something to do with the channel transmitter themselves. Generally, NBC is much better than other channels, and can be received by all antenna. And all antenna behave the same with the NBC, pretty strong as compared with ABC, which only 2 antenna can pick them up with relatively weak signal. It might be the station owners to fix the problem from their end, rather than all of us, trying to receive their signal, to struggle.



The transmitter power.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think that WTAT 24.1 (RC 40) and WMMP 36.1 (RC 35) just moved to a different tower location last month from 45 miles at 55 degrees with the rest of them to 27 miles at a different location 41 degrees, AND increased their Xmit power. 36 used to be my worst station along with ABC 4.1 (RC 34)....but its gotten much better while ABC still struggles as before.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Wong, I might like to use your brilliant color coded chart on the front page. What say you?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

One more thing....no atennas were turned towards the Alternate PBS Channel 16.1 Real Channel 44 for the test. This was all off the backside.


----------



## seatacboy

These two antennas clearly got the job done in these tests. I've been a bit skeptical about the UFO, would like more information about how often you need to make adjustments.


We gotta get our hands on one of the Trisonic 15-1880 clones and see if they provide similar performance. What say you?


----------



## wwong

According to tvfool, all the major channels (i.e. NBC, ABC, CBS and PBS) as listed are all in the same direction, and have the strongest signals among others at your home. So, it is very puzzling for ABC to be that bad, and almost unwatchable. Only RS 1880 & 1892UFO can pull in sufficient signal to have stable video to watch.


Should call up those channels if they can help.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I would put the RS-1880 above the RS UFO for being less sensitive to placement.


----------



## wwong

Ev,


I am one of those many that learn a lot from this thread, and certainly, I am more than happy to contribute my help to make the front page better.


Thanks!


----------



## seatacboy

Historically, whenever a Radio Shack product starts to achieve "cult" status among a user group, it seems like the company discontinues the product. Dealers love to sell the stuff when it's in demand, but Radio Shack as a corporation has a bad habit of killing off desirable products just when they are on the verge of being "discovered".


This certainly happened with their 15-1880 and 15-1862 antennas, and in the past with audio products such as the Optimus LX-5 Linnaeum-tweeter speaker system. Anyone remember the cult following among high-end audiophiles for those Optimus/Linnaeum speakers, or the cheap but fabulous Optimus CD-3400 CD player?


In line with its long corporate tradition of cancelling superb products for internal reasons, I wouldn't be surprised if Rat Shack kills production of the 15-1892 UFO before long.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im gonna rework the Performance Rankings on the front page, with this new data.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Those LX-5 speakers are great. Didnt ever hear about the CD-3400 CD Player though.


----------



## spokybob

Thanks WWong. Good job!


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14387086
> 
> 
> Historically, whenever a Radio Shack product starts to achieve "cult" status among a user group, it seems like the company discontinues the product. Dealers love to sell the stuff when it's in demand, but Radio Shack as a corporation has a bad habit of killing off desirable products just when they are on the verge of being "discovered".
> 
> 
> This certainly happened with their 15-1880 and 15-1862 antennas, and in the past with audio products such as the Optimus LX-5 Linnaeum-tweeter speaker system. Anyone remember the cult following among high-end audiophiles for those Optimus/Linnaeum speakers, or the cheap but fabulous Optimus CD-3400 CD player?
> 
> 
> In line with its long corporate tradition of cancelling superb products for internal reasons, I wouldn't be surprised if Rat Shack kills production of the 15-1892 UFO before long.



Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you: this brilliant lampoon .


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14387086
> 
> 
> Historically, whenever a Radio Shack product starts to achieve "cult" status among a user group, it seems like the company discontinues the product.



The Accurian ATSC tuner was pretty good, too.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kumo* /forum/post/14388611
> 
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you: this brilliant lampoon .



Yeah, I saw that in their paper when it first came out, and it had me ROTF, as practically everything ever printed in that paper has.


----------



## dizzle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14386757
> 
> 
> I think that my location is a torture test, as Im in a fringe area for reception....



First, I'd like to thank you for running through this, this thread has been a big help in me figuring out what I need. I'm very much looking forward to you testing the Clearstream1.


Second, I wanted to throw in my two cents because there might be someone out there who is in the position I'm in. I'm actually pretty close to the antennas, between 5.5 and 6.5 miles away, with the antennas all within a degree or two of each other. Signal strength isn't my problem, multipath is. I tried the UFO antenna, but I couldn't find a position that would suit all channels at the same time. I just went out and purchased a CM 4220 (figuring I could mount it on where my old DirecTV dish was mounted if it didn't work inside) and I'm getting clear reception on all channels. I'll still mount it outside (I won't have to worry about it getting bumped or moved), but it definitely would do the job inside if necessary.


So I guess my point is that you shouldn't get discouraged if your first choice doesn't work out. While this list is invaluable when picking out an antenna, your situation is most likely different than EVs, so you may have to go through a couple before you find the right antenna. That makes it especially important that if possible you shop somewhere local with a liberal return policy (thank you RS and Fry's!).


Point number two: the CM4220 is much smaller than I thought it would be, I think it's be a pretty solid contender if you're within range and all your towers are in one direction.


Thanks again EV.


d


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dizzle* /forum/post/14389709
> 
> 
> ....the CM4220 is much smaller than I thought it would be, I think it's be a pretty solid contender if you're within range and all your towers are in one direction.



A lot of folks will be very pleased using the 4220 indoors. Some of the commercial indoor antenna makers should take note of this.


Like dizzle, I'm extremely grateful to EV for his initiative in testing antennas.


----------



## seatacboy

EV: Thank you for conducting your "antenna shoot-out" and providing the results (in response #761). It really underscores some of the differences between the performance characteristics of various antennas.


I also thank wwong for compiling rankings based on EV's reception signal strength results. He developed an awesome chart depicting same.


I also compiled some rankings (based strictly on numbers) under the following response numbers:

#763 Unweighted total score

#765 Weighted score (signal strength >6 only)

#769 Alternate ranking #1

#783 Alternate ranking #2


What those numbers can't convey are ease-of-use issues with the various aerials. Some units are far more directionally-sensitive than others. Some units are prone to tipping over. Some units require frequent changes in amplifier setting or use of a remote control.


You should contact blogs such as Engadget and Consumer Reports Electronics Blog and let them know about your findings. You might even contact the various broadcast-industry news media about your results, it's amazing to me that nobody in this day and age actually has run comparison tests of consumer TV antennas. Forty years ago, Consumer Reports occasionally tested TV antennas - I'm unsure why they refuse to do so today.


And I'd really like to see someone from Radio Shack explain why the company refuses to bring back its legendary 15-1880 or its predecessor, the 15-1862. The 15-1880 conquered these tests, along with the 15-1892 UFO (which like other Rat Shack products could be discontinued at any time due to internal corporate politics). *The 15-1880 really should be brought back due to popular demand!*


Ideally, someone who is in the inner city might allow you to repeat the shoot-out results from an urban location (perhaps in or near downtown Charleston, for instance). Inner-city environments with a lot of high buildings, where SOME of the transmitters are very close by and extremely powerful, may provide somewhat different results, though the rankings may end up similar.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> So I guess my point is that you shouldn't get discouraged if your first choice doesn't work out. While this list is invaluable when picking out an antenna, your situation is most likely different than EVs, so you may have to go through a couple before you find the right antenna.



This is key. There can be no hard a fast rules and no one best antenna for everyone, because the immediate local environmental factors are too diverse. The more others contribute their experiences, the better the knowledge base in this thread will be....for others to tap into.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Please be advised that on a better atmospheric reception day or time, the results would probably change somewhat, with amped units with smaller less effective elements doing better. This would also hold true, at a position closer to the towers.


As such, these are and always will be rough guides to performance, and dont be afraid to experiment down the list.


Seatac mentioned some but here are some important characteristics that vary on indoor antennas.


Amped vs Unamped.

Highly Directional, Somewhat Directional, Omni or Bi Directional

VHF Hi/Lo Performance or Lack Thereof


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Coming up.


Terk TV-2 and TV-3 Reviews.


Godar Model 1 and HD-3 Reviews.


GE Futura Indoor Review.



I need to sell and return some antennas. Then Ill look into the ClearStream 1, Lacrosse Micron, and Philips Cheapie.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

 Video: Learn TV Antenna Basics - Before The Digital Television Transition 


Video: Winegard Square Shooter HDTV Antenna


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dizzle* /forum/post/14389709
> 
> 
> I tried the UFO antenna, but I couldn't find a position that would suit all channels at the same time.



Doesn't that antenna have a remote control where you can change the positions on it for every channel change? Or do you mean you couldn't find a suitable spot to situate the antenna?


----------



## seatacboy

EV: among your test results, I was particularly intrigued by the relatively consistent numbers obtained by the Winegard SS-3000. In an inner-city urban area with high signal levels but intense multipath problems, I'm speculating that this antenna might score very high for dependable, robust OTA reception.


Have you had a chance to take the SS-3000 with you when you travel to visit friends or family who live closer to the city?


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14392550
> 
> 
> Coming up.
> 
> Terk TV-2 and TV-3 Reviews.
> 
> Godar Model 1 and HD-3 Reviews.
> 
> GE Futura Indoor Review.



Very much looking forward to these reviews. Many kind thanks!


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14386533
> 
> 
> I've ranked these by "weighting" the total scores from EV's shoot out to only include signal-strength scores of 6 or higher. ......
> 
> 35 (45): RS 1892 UFO
> 
> 35 (45): RS 1880
> 
> 28 (42): DB2
> 
> 28 (42): Terk HDTVa
> 
> 27 (41): Philips MANT940
> 
> 27 (38): Philips MANT950
> 
> 27 (39): RS Single Bow
> 
> 23 (41): RS Double Bow
> 
> 22 (42): Winegard SS-3000
> 
> 21 (38): Silver Sensor
> 
> 21 (36): Terk TV-3
> 
> 20 (39): RS DA-5200
> 
> 20 (35): Philips MANT510
> 
> 20 (35): RCA ANT1500
> 
> 20 (35): RS 1634 RV Style
> 
> 20 (34): Picture Frame Antenna
> 
> 19 (34): Terk TV55
> 
> 18 (31): RCA ANT108
> 
> 18 (31) RS 1868 Delta
> 
> 12 (31): Terk TV-2
> 
> zero (27): GE Infinity



EV correctly pointed out that the reception conditions present at his semi-fringe rural location may be much more severe than what you'll encounter where you reside. If you are in the inner city, multipath rejection could be a much more serious reception obstacle.


Quite a few antennas EV previously evaluated were omitted from the shoot-out. EV was disappointed or unimpressed with several antennas checked during the initial evaluation. Nearly all of the antennas listed are worthy of consideration, depending on your needs at your particular location.


P.S. I meant to say that several antennas - which exhibited lackluster or indifferent performance in earlier tests - were left out of EV's shoot-out. It's likely those antennas might have scored in the same range as the GE Infinity or lower.


----------



## dizzle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/14394490
> 
> 
> Doesn't that antenna have a remote control where you can change the positions on it for every channel change? Or do you mean you couldn't find a suitable spot to situate the antenna?



The UFO does have a remote that will change the position, however my TV's going to be hooked up to a Tivo-like device and I'd have to set up an IR blaster that changed the position of the antenna when I changed the channel. For my use I'd *much* prefer to be able to point the antenna once and be done with it (which should be possible given the location of the broadcast towers from my house, and is in fact possible with the 4220).


The UFO would otherwise have worked well, and I think is an especially fine option for someone with a learning remote that they could use to make changing the channel and antenna position a one-touch operation.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That learning remote tip for the UFO is great dizzle. I use the CM 4220 on the roof. Its a fantastic little antenna, and solidly built. I favor the DB2 for indoor use though, because its smaller and lighter and the performance is very close. The CM 4220 gets a slight nod for outdoor use for its heavy duty materials. They both are great UHF antennnas.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey seatac, I was wondering how that 4221 clone is working out. Can you pull in VHF Hi with it?


----------



## spokybob

Just a report. I recently set up a U-tube antenna for a new HDTV near Peoria IL. While I was there I also set up a CECB for her kitchen TV using the rabbit ears. Because ZIP 61530 is all UHF, I left her a 2 bay for her analog TV on the porch. In a recent email she reports she gave that antenna to a friend who had bought a Zerk something with their new HDTV at CC. The two bay works perfectly and the Zerk did not, she said.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14412810
> 
> 
> Hey seatac, I was wondering how that 4221 clone is working out. Can you pull in VHF Hi with it?



The 4221 clone is working well. In all likelihood, a DB2 or 4220 would work just as well, but the price was right on this 4221 clone. There's only one channel I have fairly frequent problems with, KING-DT 48 (NBC affiliate). See the Seattle OTA reception thread starting at message 6708.


At this time, there are no VHF ATSC stations in my area, but in Feb. 09 three stations will move back to RF 9, 11 and 13.


I haven't figured out the manufacturer of my 4221 clone, it definitely is very high quality but there's no branding anywhere on it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Seems we lost over 50 posts.


Looks like I have to repost Godar HD-3 and Petra SuperPower mini reviews. Also lost wongs latest revision of his chart. And my babblings about uhf loop sizes.


----------



## Tarpon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14387086
> 
> 
> Historically, whenever a Radio Shack product starts to achieve "cult" status among a user group, it seems like the company discontinues the product. Dealers love to sell the stuff when it's in demand, but Radio Shack as a corporation has a bad habit of killing off desirable products just when they are on the verge of being "discovered".
> 
> 
> This certainly happened with their 15-1880 and 15-1862 antennas, and in the past with audio products such as the Optimus LX-5 Linnaeum-tweeter speaker system. Anyone remember the cult following among high-end audiophiles for those Optimus/Linnaeum speakers, or the cheap but fabulous Optimus CD-3400 CD player?
> 
> 
> In line with its long corporate tradition of cancelling superb products for internal reasons, I wouldn't be surprised if Rat Shack kills production of the 15-1892 UFO before long.



It always seems to me that it happens when consumers figure out RS' cheaper product outperforms RS' more expensive offering.


----------



## wwong




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14420634
> 
> 
> Seems we lost over 50 posts.
> 
> 
> .........Also lost wongs latest revision of his chart. And my babblings about uhf loop sizes.



Yes, postings between 8/2/2008 to yesterday were lost. Here's the latest chart up to last week testing by EV.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is some FANTASTIC! information on Rabbit Ears, from the HDTVprimer.



> Quote:
> The above diagrams are for a “V” shaped dipole (rabbit ears) 40 inches long (80 inches total), adjusted to 45°, and connected directly to 300W ribbon cable without any balun or adapter. If this is all you need, great! Rabbit ears often come with amplifiers or switched “tuning circuits”, and a UHF loop is common. Ribbon cable loss is easier to avoid for VHF than for UHF. For VHF, ribbon cable should not be up against anything metal.
> 
> *Units with amplifiers*
> 
> 
> In most cases all the amplifier does is allow the maker to claim a high gain number. As was explained in the section “Antenna Basics”, the amplifier will compensate for loss in the cable but will not improve the antenna. The loss in the four feet of cable that comes with the antenna is probably not significant. The true gain for rabbit ears is what is shown in the net gain graph, not what the maker claims.
> 
> 
> Most receivers have a VHF noise figure somewhere in the range 4-10 dB, with 6 dB being typical. If the antenna amplifier has a noise figure below 4 dB then you can assume it is probably quieter than the receiver. In this case, the difference between these two numbers represents an improvement provided by the amplifier, and the amplifier is a good idea. But few indoor amplifiers are that good. If the noise figure is not listed on the packaging then you can assume the amplifier is not quiet enough to be an improvement over the receiver.
> 
> 
> 1. It may be reasonable to buy an amplified indoor antenna if :
> 
> 2. the amplifier has a VHF noise figure below 4 dB.
> 
> 3. you need a longer cable to reach a good reception spot.
> 
> 4. you want to feed two sets using a splitter.
> 
> 5. your TV has 300W VHF terminals. The amplifier can overcome high ribbon cable loss where the rules can’t be followed.
> 
> *Units with tuners*
> 
> 
> Many indoor antennas have a rotary switch on them that you must set each time you change channels. This switch improves the match between the antenna and the feedline. When effective, it makes the net gain as good as the raw gain. But it is not generally obvious how well it will work. (There is no way to tell before you buy.) You may find you can tune it to your weakest station and forget about it.
> 
> *Getting the most out of rabbit ears.*
> 
> 
> If your rabbit ears do not have a tuning switch, you can achieve some tuning by adjusting the length of the elements. The following lengths are for rabbit ears set to 45° and connected directly to a 300W ribbon cable, no amplifier. These are total lengths measured with the elements horizontal. Keep both elements equal in length. If the elements have metal (not plastic) “eye protectors” on the ends, subtract an inch or two from the following lengths.
> 
> 
> 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
> 
> 
> 113” 103” 94” 83” 78” 44” 44” 43.5” 43” 42” 41.5” 41”
> 
> 
> Additional gain is achieved by making the elements horizontal, making the antenna a straight dipole. Assuming your living room has space for this and that you can keep the antenna far away from anything metal, the following lengths (subtract an inch or two for metal eye protectors) should be used.
> 
> 
> 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
> 
> 
> 109” 99” 91” 80” 74.5” 84” 81” 78” 75” 72” 69.5” 67”
> 
> 
> 
> The straight dipole has nulls to the sides that can eliminate interference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If for channels 2, 3, and 4 you cannot achieve the lengths recommended above then connecting large metal balls to the ends of the elements will cause a big improvement. These are called “capacitive hats” and will match the antenna as if it is much larger. Balls an inch or more in diameter can be made of loosely crumpled up aluminum foil. Make both balls the same size, then experiment to find the best antenna length.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/RabbitEars.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is something I picked up for the tools and tricks box.


RS 20db variable attenuator.


----------



## mikeyf

Will it help with my Radio Shack rabbit ears? Looks like something that improves the signal strength.


----------



## allargon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikeyf* /forum/post/14432470
> 
> 
> Will it help with my Radio Shack rabbit ears? Looks like something that improves the signal strength.



Other way around... It's the opposite of an amplifier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attenuator_(electronics )


I have a nice two channel amplifier going between my RS UFO and my display and Dish DVR... (OTA on my display looks better in real time than on my Dish DVR.)

http://shop2.frys.com/product/2571201#detailed


----------



## Amiga

The first ClearStream2 reviews are on Amazon . Here is another review of the ClearStream2.


Sigh, I want to know whether I should ditch my Channel Master 4220 (DB2) for one of these.

*EscapeVelocity*, you know Antennas Direct offers a 90 day return policy . The ClearStream1 is also begging to be tested / reviewed.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Got em on order Amiga.



I did some work on the front page trying to recover from the lost data.


----------



## Amiga




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14434902
> 
> 
> Got em on order Amiga.



Thank you. Sorry to nag you, but those pretty little suckers have me so damn curious and I'm clueless if I bought them how to size them up (review).


----------



## seatacboy

EV: Have you evaluated the Godar Model 1 ?


Thank you for your thorough evaluation of the Godar Model 3 .


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Not yet, Ive been busy, and this data loss has got me jammed up further.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Godar HD-3 Twin Crossfire*











This one took a little longer than some others to evaluate, being that it is so different. Im sure I dont have all the ins and outs of it yet.


Godar is a small US company that hand crafts their antennas in the USA.



Dimensions


31" x 14" Each antenna grille is 14" square. The base of the unit is appoximately 12" x 5". Sitting flat on a surface it is approximately 3.5" high. The base is a textured black plastic housing with a single gold coax out on one side between the 2 square elements. Very minimalist.


This unit is unlike any other that Ive tested. I found it to be a very good performer. It did however seem to be a bit finicky with placement....meaning I couldnt find one spot where it did reasonably well with most of the channels. However, I may be overstating that a bit.


I tried it in its vertical and horizontal position laid up in the window and it seemed to work equally well, either way. When I laid down flat on the lamp, it didnt work quite as well, but didnt stink either.....say my strong channel 50 went from 8 to a strong 6 on the Zenith signal meter.....closer to the towers this would probably work quite well laid down flat like that...which would add to the mounting options....including a ceiling mount.


I still need to check VHF performance.


I did pick up channel 39 WSAV Savannah Digital 1000kw 65 miles and locked in video at 5. It was fluctuating between 4 and 6 on the meter, but video and audio stayed locked continuous with no break ups.


Ill add comments later after I get some more time with it.


Comes with 6 ft coax.




> Quote:
> Godars unique designed model HD-3
> 
> 
> This unique antenna was designed for difficult reception areas.
> 
> 
> Receives stable HD/ mid to upper VHF and full UHF signals in the most difficult indoor reception room areas.
> 
> This low profile antenna has unlimited placement advantages.Easy placement on top of a cabinet or Home entertainment shelf.Your wife will love this antenna.HD-3 design will work in horizontal or vertical positions.Antenna is desigend to be mounted flat against a wall in back of a TV or cabinet center.Also can be installed in the attic for severe room or basement reception issues.Wide receiving radius results in stable high definition reception across the frequency's.HD-3 is your choice for picture perfect reception anywhere!
> 
> 
> Technical:
> 
> 
> What a concept!
> 
> 
> 
> 1,Godar's Model HD-3 receives analog UHF + digital mid to upper VHF HD Ch 6-13,full UHF 14-83 HDTV and Full HD radio signals from 0 to 25 miles from the antenna transmitting towers.Distance is increased at higher elevations with direct line of sight.
> 
> 
> 2,HD-3 is a unique VHF/UHF /HD dual mesh element broadband high definition antenna.
> 
> 
> 3,Passive design requiring no electricity for operation.No amplifiers to burn out.This antenna was built to last a life time.
> 
> 
> 4,Polarity:Horizontal or Vertical plane.Antenna can lay flat or hang upright.
> 
> 
> 5,Twin crossfire element design eliminates picture freeze-ups and pixel breakups.HD radio signals received at full signal strength to the receiver.
> 
> Eliminates station drifting in and out.This antenna raises the bars.
> 
> 
> 6,HD-3 has excellent performance on quartz lock FM tuner/receivers.Lock's in on the FM station and keeps it locked.If you record off FM,this antenna is a Must!.
> 
> 
> 7,Typical gain is 3db at 20 miles.
> 
> 
> 8,This antenna is provided with a standard 6ft RG-59U cable.RG6U in Lengths of 75 ft is recomended for attic installations.HD-3 can run 2 sets using an optional 3 way splitter.
> 
> 
> 9,Antenna's outside demension measures 31" by 14" and only 1" in height.
> 
> 
> Quality handcrafted only made in USA can deliver.
> 
> http://www.godarusa.com/id30.html



Performance on the Zenith DTT901 D/A Converter Box


34 - 5

35 - 4

40 - 7

44 - 7

47 - 5

49 - 5

50 - 8



Pic below with RCA ANT108 for relative size comparison.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Petra SuperPower 32db (Cornet 645A, others)*











Here we have the Petra SuperPower which is very similar to several other models including the Cornet 646A which is highly touted by C.Crane a well known long time amateur radio equipment enthusiast retailer.


This antenna is an excellent performer. It has a thick 9" loop. Both the size and thickness of the loop help it to capture and relay UHF signals. The loop has some plastic structure across it, but I dont think that it is anything more than aesthetic...meaning I dont think that it has aditional antenna elements encased within it. The loop is adjustable in altitude but not azimuth. It also has long 44" telescoping Rabbit Ear dipoles that are adjustable in altitude and azimuth. The Rabbit Ears are a bit lacking in fit and finish. One side is loose at the adjustment point, so as to sag down when I pushed the REs out a bit...they kept on falling....also the telescoping aspect seems loosish as well.


The whole unit excepting for the 9" loop is kinda lacking in the fit and finish department, though the plastic pivot point for the elements is pretty snug. The provided coax is permanently attached and kindof short, being about 4 feet long. And the power cord is also permanently attached...with an interior power supply. There is also an input for a 12 volt power input....either car or wall wart.


This is an amplified unit, and like most amplified units, it doesnt do much without its amplifier....which is claimed to be 32db gain. The unit has an on/off knob which also serves as a gain adjustment. There are markings and numbers around the knob which seem to be kinda arbitrary, but perhaps will help with setting then gain from channel to channel. Red LED power on indicator light corresponds to units integrated antenna system.


This unit has an External Amplifier 75ohm input, which according to the instruction sheet, is fed through the amplifier. Pretty neat feature....but I did not test it.


I get the feeling that this antenna was intended for the Mexican market. Is Petra a known brand name of antennas marketed in Mexico. They also offer the Single Classic BowTie and the FM Dipole, and a few others.


I wonder if the Cornet is different in any significant way....higher quality build or amplifier specs or some such.


The large 9" diameter loop seems to be the key to the UHF performance(along with the amp).


Performance test using the Zenith DTT901


34 - 5

35 - 5

40 - 8

44 - 6

47 - 5

49 - 5

50 - 8


Pretty darn good, I was able to lock in all my stations with video in the mid afternoon.


Recommended.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Godar Model 1
*


----------



## seatacboy











Trisonic's TS-1603 is a bare-bones "Panasonic-style" rabbit-ear VHF-only antenna. So far, it's the only Trisonic antenna I've found locally; my goal is to get the TS-1581B which appears to be a clone of the RS 15-1862 / 15-1880.

* Rabbit Ear Style

* 5 Section Panasonic Type

* VHF Antenna

* RG-59U Cable with "F" Connector

* Chrome Antenna

* 1 pc Polybag Header


Keep in mind this is not, technically speaking, a UHF antenna. In my local market, all of the DTV stations are currently UHF - though in February 2009, three channels will revert to VHF. FYI, the best performance seemed to be on low-UHF channels.


Here are signal numbers using the Zenith DTT900's simple signal meter. In most cases at my condo location, I can't get a stable picture using an indoor antenna unless I use a big outdoor design like the Channel Master 4201. However, if you are receiving some signal using a paper clip, this antenna might actually offer good performance for a whopping $1.69 (or less).


Listed by RF number, measured signal, and call letters/network.


14 7 KTBW (TBN)

18 7 KCPQ (Fox)

25 7 KMYQ (MyNetwork)

27 7 KBTC (PBS)

31 3 KONG (Ind) (no pic, some signal fluctuation)

32 7 KWPX (Ion)(some signal fluctuation

36 7 KSTW (The CW)(stable!)

38 3 KOMO (ABC) (no pic, wide signal fluctuation)

39 3 KIRO (CBS) (occasional pic, fluctuating signal)

41 5 KCTS (PBS) (wide signal fluctuation)

42 6 KWBF (Daystar)(fluctuating signal)

44 3 KHCV (Shopping)(no pic, signal fluctuation)

48 4 KING (NBC) (occasional pic, wide signal fluctuation)

50 4 KUNS (Univision)(occasional pic, wide signal fluctuation)


The RE elements are average quality, a little on the light side and with a bit of noise as though there's a small loose piece inside one of the elements. The RG59 connecting cable is pretty short (3 feet), the screw-on connector is good quality. I obtained best reception with only two of the five sections pulled out, and the ears placed in a "flat" or "almost flat" position.


The reason I've reviewed this $1.69 VHF-only antenna is that there are many glowing user reviews on Amazon.com by people using the Terk TV1 and Philips MANT-075 REs (units which lack an integrated UHF element) to tune UHF ATSC channels with CECBs. A VHF antenna is generally not going to provide good multipath rejection or maximum signal quality on ATSC UHF channels, but in some cases it apparently can work. Unlike the Terk TV1 and Philips MANT075 which require a 300-ohm to 75-ohm connecting balun this ultra-cheap Trisonic unit terminates in a standard screw-on 75-ohm connector, avoiding possible balun signal loss.


Using a VHF-only RE isn't recommended for most users - the generic Outline UHF Single Bow Tie is more appropriate -but this low-cost Trisonic RE was worth evaluating. If you are in an upper-story condo or apartment with a good view of the transmitters, this $1.69 antenna might give better reception than a paper clip.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Terk TV-3 and TV-2 in box*


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Terk TV-3*












This antenna is a pretty good performer for its class....amplified Rabbit Ear and Loop. Its fit and finish are very good. I especially like the thick chromed steel loop....the extra surface area helps with signal transfer if implemented properly. The loop rotates 360 degress and is adjustable in azimuth as well. The loop diameter is 6.5 inches (same as RCA ANT108). 44" telescoping dipoles adjustable 360 degrees and in azimuth. It incorporates a UHF/VHF band combiner/seperator, thus removing FM frequencies. Its claimed top amplification is 40db gain, and in the manual its states...VHF 12db minimum and UHF 6db minimum. The amplifier is switched on and adjusted by the knob on the top of the unit. I also like the units low profile base. It is very stable as well. On the back there is an auxillary input which is switchable between it and the antenna. The coax is permanently attached, and has a slip on connector....which I like(instead of the ubiquitous screw on). Im pretty high on both the Amplified Terk TV-3 and the unamped Terk TV-2 for their categories.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Terk TV-2*











Ther Terk TV-2 is very similar to the Terk TV-3 except lacking the adjustable gain amplifier. The antenna/aux switch is located where the amplifier on/off adjustment knob is located on the Terk TV-3. It performs on par with the other recommended non amplified RE & Loops like the RCA ANT108 and the Radio Shack 1668 Delta.


Both the Terk TV-2 and the Terk TV-3 are going on my recommended and favorites list.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Radio Shack Color Eagle 100
*

catalog # 15-1808A











This seems to be the same unit as the Recoton 350 that is in the Discontinued slot on the front page....excepting this has dual 300 ohm spades for VHF and UHF, where the Recoton seems to have 75ohm and 300ohm connections. Mine came with a dual 300ohm VHF/UHF to 75 ohm combiner. Its got brass VHF/FM dipoles and dual aluminum UHF loops. A nice large feedline impedence fine tuning knob, that clicks from position to position in a tight and smooth manner. The whole antenna element assembly pivots on a round cylinder. Nice "suction cup" feet are intact, very stable. Very nice unit.


Color Eagle 100 VHF/UHF/FM Antenna

(150-1808) Features Faxback Doc. # 31391


The Archer Eagle 100 VHF/UHF/FM Indoor Antenna is perfect for improving

your TV's VHF or UHF reception, or your stereo receiver's FM reception.

You can place the antenna on your TV set or mount it on a wall. Other

outstanding features include:


HIGHLY CONDUCTIVE BRASS VHF/FM - extend to 40 inches in length and

DIPHOLE pivot 90 degrees for easy adjustment.


FIVE-POSITION ANTENNA ASSEMBLY - provides free antenna movement, even

if you mount the antenna on a wall.


TWELVE-POSITION FINE-TUNE CONTROL - allows precise tuning to help

eliminate ghosting, graininess in the

picture, and static.


DUAL UHF LOOP ANTENNA - rotates 90 degrees for the best

possible reception.


COLOR-CODED VHF/UHF TWIN LEADS - make your antenna easy to install.


NON-SLIP RUBBER FEET - keep the antenna in place on top of

the TV set or other hard, flat

surface.


Radio Shack Online PDF Manual

http://support.radioshack.com/suppor...oc62/62049.pdf


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks to Talking Rat for digging up those 2 posts in google cache. Im not having much success, but I would be eternally grateful if someone could find the google cache with the Godar HD-3 Twin Crossfire mini review and the Petra SuperPower 32db mini review and the GE Futura Indoor mini review.


Thanks!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*GE Futura Indoor*











I got this used and it came with the items in the photo below. Its an amplified unit, with the box measuring 7"x 3.5" and it has a 30" telescoping monopole which is adjustable in azimuth and altitude but is limited by the position of the box on the mount. The amplifier is not adjustable. There is one coax out connector on the back of the unit with a DC in as well. As you can see, it can be be mounted vertical or horizontal on the included clip on mount. The mount is nicely weighted without being over-engineered, made of steel and sturdy plastic.


The performance wasnt anything to write home about. It barely beat out the RCA ANT108 that I used as a benchmark.


Not recommended.


GE Futura Indoor - 8:45 PM


34 - 3

35 - 4

40 - 7

44 - 6

47 - 4

49 - 5

50 - 7


39 - 4 WSAV Savannah 65 miles South 1000kw


RCA ANT108


34 - 3

35 - 3

40 - 6

44 - 6

47 - 3

49 - 5

50 - 6


39 - 5 WSAV Savannah 65 miles South 1000kw locked video


----------



## dr1394

I ran across this link the other day.

http://www.wa5vjb.com/products1.html 


The specification for the 400 - 1000 MHz log periodic lists the antenna factor. To convert to gain:


Gain (dBi) = 20 log (f in MHz) - 29.77 - AF


400 18.8 = 3.47 dBi

450 17.7 = 5.59 dBi

500 18.2 = 6.01 dBi

600 19.8 = 5.99 dBi

700 21.2 = 5.93 dBi

800 22.3 = 5.99 dBi

900 23.3 = 6.01 dBi

1000 24.2 = 6.03 dBi

1050 24.7 = 5.95 dBi


Price is $25.


Ron


----------



## dagger666

The UFO by radio shack. funny to find people who like radio shack stuff but this antenna is interesting. How does it change position per station, do you or does it on it's own? how would this work for house in PA tobyhanna or Long Island 14 miles from NY. I also saw this antenna at mono price HDTV Indoor / Outdoor Antenna product #4730 which looks like a Phillips antenna that i have had no luck with any of theirs.


----------



## seatacboy

Great article, " Selecting and Siting your TV aerial: Measuring Signal Quality - What's Wrong with Set-Top Aerials ". Hot critical analysis including shoot-out results comparing a Silver Sensor with an inexpensive generic outdoor antenna. Opinionated writer but the points are worth considering such as:


> Quote:
> _A set-top aerial on top of a downstairs TV set receives 100 times less signal power than a basic rooftop aerial_





> Quote:
> _A booster amplifier is not the correct response to an inadequate aerial system_ *and* _what has once been lost can never be regained_



Hat-tip to an AVS Forum contributor at the Zenith DTT900 thread for this very useful article.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dagger666* /forum/post/14442648
> 
> 
> The UFO by radio shack. funny to find people who like radio shack stuff but this antenna is interesting. How does it change position per station, do you or does it on it's own? how would this work for house in PA tobyhanna or Long Island 14 miles from NY. I also saw this antenna at mono price HDTV Indoor / Outdoor Antenna product #4730 which looks like a Phillips antenna that i have had no luck with any of theirs.



I've similarly wondered: do users of Rat Shack's UFO (15-1892) have to fiddle with the antenna's remote control when they change channels?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Regards the UFO...


I would have to change the position to get my alternate PBS channel from 294 degrees, but can get all my other stations from 41 degrees 27 miles and 55 degrees 45 miles with one position. So that makes only 2 positions to set and worry about. Another poster fajitamosaic, also only uses 2 positions, having to move the antenna for one particular station, otherwise using it for everything else at the other position.


Another poster held out the possibility of using a learning remote to control the antenna and the tv/tuner at the same time.


Ive read another review on the UFO which claimed that the UFO was not directional, leading me to believe that this fellow was close to the towers and was recieving good signal off the backside at that range.


That is all I have to say on the matter.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/14442090
> 
> 
> I ran across this link the other day.
> 
> http://www.wa5vjb.com/products1.html
> 
> 
> The specification for the 400 - 1000 MHz log periodic lists the antenna factor. To convert to gain:
> 
> 
> Gain (dBi) = 20 log (f in MHz) - 29.77 - AF
> 
> 
> 400 18.8 = 3.47 dBi
> 
> 450 17.7 = 5.59 dBi
> 
> 500 18.2 = 6.01 dBi
> 
> 600 19.8 = 5.99 dBi
> 
> 700 21.2 = 5.93 dBi
> 
> 800 22.3 = 5.99 dBi
> 
> 900 23.3 = 6.01 dBi
> 
> 1000 24.2 = 6.03 dBi
> 
> 1050 24.7 = 5.95 dBi
> 
> 
> Price is $25.
> 
> 
> Ron



I think you can do this DIY style, with wire arranged and taped down on top of a piece of cardboard as well.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14447059
> 
> 
> I think you can do this DIY style, with wire arranged on top of a cardboard box as well.



It's just something I saw on another mailing list, and I thought I'd pass it on. The interesting part (at least for me) is that it's obviously designed for EMC measurements (as indicated by the use of antenna factor in the specification). The trick with EMC measurement antennas is that they are supposed to be calibrated. For example, a professional log-periodic like this one

http://www.tucker.com/java/jsp/produ...5968_condN.htm 


is outlandishly expensive ($1250) only because it's calibrated.


By using a PC board design, it's a cheap and dirty way to have an antenna that's uniform from one copy to the next. That is, the calibration for one antenna is pretty close for all of the other copies.


So it's kind of a poor man's "reference antenna" for your study here.


Ron


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for the heads up dr1394! That is one expensive antenna!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Special thanks to TalkingRat, who has found most of the lost posts in google cache, where I recovered half a dozen mini reviews, which have been updated on the previous page, including....


Terk TV-3

Terk TV-2

Petra SuperPower 32db (Cornet 645A)

GE Futura Indoor

Godar HD-3

Radio Shack Color Eagle 100


I still have yet to mini review the Godar Model 1.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is wongs updated chart of my Zenith DTT901 testing.....


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The larger 9" loop on the Petra SuperPower 32db seems to be a key in the Petras success....I believe the surface area of the thick loop also helps(as well as the amplifier).


Here is some great information of UHF loops from the HDTVprimer.




> Quote:
> The 7.5” loop is representative of a large class of indoor antennas built around a loop or something similar. These may include units with amplifiers or switched “tuning circuits”, and frequently VHF rabbit ears are included.
> 
> Simple loops
> 
> 
> If this is all you need, great! Some simple improvements are possible :
> 
> You can add three feet of twin-lead (300 ohm ribbon cable) to it. This will get it away from the body of the TV set and allow you to rotate it. But twin-lead must always be kept one inch from anything metal and must not touch any substantial thing that is plastic.
> 
> 
> You can rescale the loop for your weakest channel. Use this formula : dia=4537/(6*N+389) where N is the channel number (14-69). (Plugging 36 into this formula will give you 7.5. Multiply that by 3.141 to get the total wire length.) 12 or 14 gauge copper wire is fine. Remove any thick insulation.
> 
> Higher gain is possible with a double-loop (J2 on the gain graphs). However it has a narrower bandwidth. This “figure-8” antenna should look like two tangent circles, one above the other, fed at the bottom. Keep the wires a quarter inch apart at the crossover point. This formula gives the diameter of each circle : dia=4244/(6*N+389) Multiply this by 6.283 to get the total wire length.
> 
> *Units with amplifiers*
> 
> 
> In most cases all the amplifier does is allow the maker to claim a high gain number. As was explained in the section “Antenna Basics”, the amplifier will compensate for loss in the cable but will not improve the antenna. The loss in the four feet of cable that comes with the antenna is probably not significant. The true gain for a loop antenna is what is shown in the net gain graph, not what the maker claims.
> 
> 
> Most receivers have a UHF noise figure somewhere in the range 3-10 dB, with 5 dB being typical. If the antenna amplifier has a noise figure below 3 dB then you can assume it is probably quieter than the receiver. In this case, the difference between these two numbers represents an improvement provided by the amplifier, and the amplifier is a good idea. But few indoor amplifiers are that good. If the noise figure is not listed on the packaging then you can assume the amplifier is not quiet enough to be an improvement over the receiver.
> 
> 
> It may be reasonable to buy an amplified indoor antenna if :
> 
> 
> 1. the amplifier has a noise figure below 3 dB.
> 
> 2. you need a longer cable to reach a good reception spot.
> 
> 3. you want to feed two sets using a splitter.
> 
> 4. you want to recover the 1 dB loss in the 300W-to-75W balun and the coaxial cable.
> 
> 5. your TV has 300W UHF terminals. The amplifier can overcome high ribbon cable loss where the rules can’t be followed.
> 
> *Units with tuners*
> 
> 
> Many indoor antennas have a rotary switch on them that you must set each time you change channels. This switch improves the match between the antenna and the feedline. When effective, it makes the net gain as good as the raw gain. But in some cases it is mainly for the VHF channels and does a poor job on UHF. (There is no way to tell before you buy.) A UHF-only antenna with a tuner is a good buy. You may find you can tune it to your weakest station and forget about it.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/Loop.html




The 6.5" loop found on the RCA ANT108 and the Terk TV-3 and many other RE&Loops seems to be a tuned for the center of the old UHF television frequency range....channel 14 to channel 69. However the new range is channel 14 to 50, and this larger 9" loop seems to move the peak tuned channel down significantly below 7.7" which the formula above gives you using the center frequency of channel 32=midpoint between channel 50 and 14.


Using 9" diameter loop, and plugging that into the above formula, the peak tuned channel for a 9" loop is channel 19...or maybe channel 20 if I measured sloppy (outside to outside instead of inside to inside).


Does that make any sense? Is my math correct?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hmmmm. I plugged in half way point of 14 to 69 which is channel 41 and got 7", not 6.5".


There goes my theory.


6.5" loop is centered on channel 51 according to the above formula.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Interesting site....


RetroThing: Vintage Gadgets and Technology

http://www.retrothing.com/video_tv/


----------



## EscapeVelocity

seatac replys:



> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Quote:Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity
> 
> Hmmmm. I plugged in half way point of 14 to 69 which is channel 41 and got 7", not 6.5"......There goes my theory.......6.5" loop is centered on channel 51 according to the above formula.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EV, you're forgetting that from the 1950s until the late-1980s, UHF was from channel 14 to channel 83 (69 channels). Mid-point of the original UHF TV broadcast band would have been roughly between channel 48 and 49. That's not all that far away from channel 51 per your formula.
> 
> 
> The RCA ANT 110/ANT108 6.5" loop design dates back to the 1970s. In my home, I noticed it obtained unusually good reception on ATSC real channel 48 (virtual channel 5.1, KING-DT) and significantly less dependable on channels 38 (KOMO) and 39 (KIRO).
> 
> 
> I wonder if the smaller rectangular loop on the RCA ANT111 (and the slightly-fancier RCA ANT146) is an attempt to "tune" the UHF element towards today's narrower UHF band.
> 
> 
> Your analysis of loop size might also provide clues to why the generic Single Outline Bow-Tie antenna tends to work pretty well for channels in the 30-something range.
> 
> 
> The biggest-sized UHF element I have in my collection of aerials is the 8" oval on the Radio Shack 15-1878 (a current-model amplified antenna I just acquired last week at a thrift store), followed closely by the Radio Shack "Delta" 15-1868. So far my UHF results using the 15-1878 haven't been all that inspiring. It has nice fit and finish, and attractive black REs. Fortunately, I only paid $4 used rather than $33 for a brand-new one at The Shack - so far it hasn't been a world-beater in my brief testing.
Click to expand...


----------



## dagger666

This is what I'm using now with my Emerson HDTV but with one difference. I have a big piece of aluminum fold like a goose neck sticking up from the circle UHF antenna to help reception. Bad weather screws with reception and always have to reposition it.


*Basic Non-Amplified Rabbit Ears & Loop*


----------



## dagger666

*Philips MANT940*











The Philips MANT940 antenna gets good user reviews and comes with a nice versatile solid mount, but a bit more complicated than the RS DA-5200 above, and a good assortment of accessories, like 20ft of coax cable, power injector. It is an amplified unit and offers very good performance. It offer some VHF Hi gain as well. UHF only.



what is that small box with the coaxil cable coming out of it in the middle of the picture, is that the power injector and what does it do? Can i buy one for my antennas i have already. I live on long island ny 14 miles from the city. WNJT is the farthest away at 59.7 miles


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That is a power injector, used to feed an inline amplifier, in this case, located in the antenna box.


By itself it wont help your reception, and in fact should slightly hurt it with increased interfernce in the coax line, FWIU.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Philips Silver Sensor Amplified PHDTV3 came in today.


----------



## dagger666

The HDA-5700 is specially designed for the new digital terrestrial broadcasts. Perfect for new HDTV's as an alternative to or accompanying other HD souces. This antenna will let you take full advantage of the built-in tuner in your TV. It receive the new ATSC DTV broadcasts mandated by law as well as current NTSC VHF and UHF channels.


The antenna features state-of-the-art low noise amplifier technology and circuits for the best reception. It comes in a UV resistant and water-proof housing that is both compact and stylish. Comes with hardware to mount to either walls or existing poles. Perfect for use both indoors or outdoors.


Specifications:


UHF 470-870 MHz (these frequencies are the ones used by ATSC DTV)

VHF 47-230 MHz

Gain 20 +/- 3dB

Low noise amplifier technology

High directionality

Water-proof and anti-UV housing.

The main body of the unit not including protrusion for connectors and mounts is about 4 3/16" wide x 7 9/16" high x 1 5/8 deep.


Package Contents:


HDA-5700 main unit

Multi-directional base

Wall mounting packages (plastic pole & screws)

Pole mounting kit (U type screws & butterfly washers)

Coaxial Cable

Power inserter

AC Adapter

Operational Manual

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...#specification


----------



## spokybob

Thanks EV & wong for post #846. i'm saving that chart excel chart.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

There is an error on it.


The UFO should have a score of 5 out of 7, regards channels reading above 6 on the Zenith DTT901 meter. Currently it reads 6/7.


----------



## wwong




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14453912
> 
> 
> There is an error on it.
> 
> 
> The UFO should have a score of 5 out of 7, regards channels reading above 6 on the Zenith DTT901 meter. Currently it reads 6/7.



Thanks for pointing out the error, here's the corrected chart.


----------



## wwong

EV,


During your test of those 2 antenna, did you have to adjust the direction that they were pointing for different channels?


Also how good were their ability to lock a channel, were they equally good?


From the chart, it seems to me that both of them are equally good, but the UFO cost a lot more than the 1880. Judging from cost/performance, 1880 might be a better choice.


Thanks!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I dont really know the answer to that one, wong. They are really similar in performance. Id say the 1880 is slightly more of a set it and forget it, antenna, but I dont really see where its cheaper(not to mention harder to find)?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

GE Optima Amplified order could not be fullfilled by Amazon. So dont be looking for that one yet.


----------



## tetonca




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14386720
> 
> 
> The Terk TV-55 did better than the other night. Dont know why?



Near as I can figure, the Terk TV55 is directional broadside at VHF and directional longitudinally (off the ends) at UHF.


I hauled mine up to the attic for a test.


I was able to shoulder mount it (hold it near my shoulder) and get channel 10 (192-198 MHz, WTNH-DT) off the broad side from a wide range of angles (not very sharp directionality off the broad side). Off the end (F connector to the rear, away from the xmtr antenna on the horizon) I was able to get channel 35 (596-602 MHz) thru a narrow range of azimuth. In general I seem to get some signal from any station off both axes of this antenna, but rotating it 90 or 180 degrees can make a difference.


I'm half-sure the antenna favors the logo side when operating broadside to the signal source (this makes sense considering it was designed to be mounted logo side out, so people can read the brand name and model as they admire the antenna, for wall-mount installations).


For testing, I've suspended the Terk TV55 off an unused ceiling fixture mount, and I've also put it on the mast mount (I fashioned a mast by lashing a short and a long section of 2x2 lumber together with zip ties, after whittling the end of the short piece into a dowel shape, with a razor knife). This arrangement allows me to adjust the height above the floor from 7 to 8 feet, to optimize for reflection off various surfaces.


It's a consistently directional antenna, seems somewhat immune to reflections that would strongly effect the direction the antenna should be oriented towards for maximum reception quality. I found myself orienting the antenna parallel or perpendicular to where it always is, for that station, no matter where I repositioned it (hunting the sweet spot).


I offset the mast-mount almost to the end closest to the F connector, to make it easier to dress the coax even with wide azimuth swings. I shoved a cardboard bath tissue core into the mast mount to act as a bearing surface against the roughly-whittled pine 'mast' -- makes turning easier.


Bought the TV55 on the strength of the vendor who included it in their print catalog. That was probably a mistake. It's a fine antenna, in every department except perhaps the only one we care about: whether it pulls in signals or not. All I can say is the rooftop antenna (uninspected by me) does not pull in WTNH-DT at all, but the TV55 does (in the attic).


That's better than nothing.


73


chris WA1TNR


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks tetonca. I still have it here, Ill check out you observances, when I get a chance.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tetonca* /forum/post/14459763
> 
> 
> Near as I can figure, the Terk TV55 is directional broadside at VHF and directional longitudinally (off the ends) at UHF.



I'm not surprised that alot of these antennas work like that, I computer modeled and built a VHF-HI bowtie that was upscaled from the simple UHF bowtie and it worked the same way.


On VHF it works like a standard dipole with a broad figure 8 pattern broadside and on UHF the antenna works more like a long wire antenna with the best reception strength more off the ends.


I belive that the Terk TV55 is nothing more than a coil loaded VHF dipole.


----------



## Mloot

EV, I'm eager to see your results with the PHDTV3. Right now I am using a SS in a location that is 15 miles from Houston's transmitters. It gets basically all the UHF digital transmissions with no problem, but after Feb. I will have 4 VHF-Hi digital channels (2 major networks, PBS, and a low-power independent station).


----------



## tetonca




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/14462330
> 
> 
> I'm not surprised that alot of these antennas work like that, I computer modeled and built a VHF-HI bowtie that was upscaled from the simple UHF bowtie and it worked the same way.
> 
> 
> On VHF it works like a standard dipole with a broad figure 8 pattern broadside and on UHF the antenna works more like a long wire antenna with the best reception strength more off the ends.
> 
> 
> I belive that the Terk TV55 is nothing more than a coil loaded VHF dipole.



I made a simple 42" element Gray-Hoverman Sunday, on a piece of pegboard with a VHF/UHF combiner transformer and got WVIT-DT (real Ch 35) no problem (broadside) off a decent turn of azimuth (better than 15 degrees) when I tried it in the attic this morning. So I'd say the Terk was very sharp directional along the long axis (same station a bit more difficult to get, unless the Terk is aimed right at it, bazooka-wise).


Couldn't test the Gray-Hoverman for real Ch 10, WTNH-DT, because of the way I used the transformer: it attenuates VHF-HI. Also, could not get WVIT-DT at ground floor with the Gray-Hoverman (but with fussing I can, with the Terk). So the Terk does have its uses, even for UHF.


Haven't decided if I should feel buyer's remorse, though. Heh.


----------



## Once Bitten

Hello, sorry to shoe horn this in, but I found a *Phillips Mant 260*

antenna at a local flea market. I haven't found much on it online, so

I think it must be a bit older than some. All it has with it is coax, the

good kind, and a button on the base of the boomerang shaped base

clicks 'off' or 'on' when you turn it all the way. I see no place for

A.C. power, so I don't know exactly what that is.


Anyone know if it's good bad or fair? I hid it behind something to

go back for, if I think it's worth the 10 bucks.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Once Bitten* /forum/post/14472150
> 
> 
> Hello, sorry to shoe horn this in, but I found a *Phillips Mant 260* antenna at a local flea market. I haven't found much on it online, so
> 
> I think it must be a bit older than some. All it has with it is coax, the good kind, and a button on the base of the boomerang shaped baseclicks 'off' or 'on' when you turn it all the way. I see no place for A.C. power, so I don't know exactly what that is.
> 
> 
> Anyone know if it's good bad or fair? I hid it behind something to go back for, if I think it's worth the 10 bucks.












The MANT260 was a low-cost antenna marketed about five years ago. Don't lose sleep if you missed out on buying it.


----------



## Once Bitten




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14472572
> 
> 
> The MANT260 was a low-cost antenna marketed about five years ago. Don't lose sleep if you missed out on buying it.



Thanks.










That's kinda what I figured, but the thing that had

me intrigued was how far apart the dipoles are, in

relation to the UHF loop. So I thought it might

have an advantage of some kind due to more

positioning of the dipoles without interfering with

the loop.


I may get it to play with. It won't be the only

antenna I have, sitting in the closet.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tetonca* /forum/post/14469690
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't test the Gray-Hoverman for real Ch 10, WTNH-DT, because of the way I used the transformer: it attenuates VHF-HI. Also, could not get WVIT-DT at ground floor with the Gray-Hoverman (but with fussing I can, with the Terk). So the Terk does have its uses, even for UHF.
> 
> 
> Haven't decided if I should feel buyer's remorse, though. Heh.



Don't expect much on VHF-HI out of the hoverman where they usually receive worse than rabbit ears. They do work great on UHF and are easy to build.


----------



## gsw234

Hello - I'm wondering if someone can help. I've read most of this post and numerous others looking for the right antenna... as well as trying every antenna at walmart, some at Radio shack etc.


I moved into a brick apartment on ground level. I have figured how to put an antenna outside on the patio, but need something not to obtrusive. The problem is the patio is surrounded by brick walls on all 3 sides with the opening pointing toward the east. I pick up all stations but Fox (UHF) and NBC (hi-VHF). I currently have the phillips mant940 which has worked the best. I get some reception on NBC, but Fox is still not good. The problem, I think, is that both of these stations are south of me (with numerous brick walls in the pathway. l I have yet to get my converter box (waiting for the coupon, but I will then get the zenith at circuit city). Will this help my reception at all?

I am thinking about getting the DB2 but then I don't know how to get hi-VHF, and not sure if it will be better than the mant940. I don't want to order a DB2 and not be able to take it back, if it doesn't improve reception at all.

Any ideas on what I could use? Or am I just destined to have to do cable? ugh.

Thanks for any ideas...

BTW ... fox station is in the red zone for me according to tvfool.com (zip 17033)


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gsw234* /forum/post/14473457
> 
> 
> Any ideas on what I could use?



I didnt see Fox in the Red at your Zip.


The Philips MANT 940 has some VHF Hi gain, however the Philips MANT950 should give you better results on VHF Hi. Have you tried using the Philips MANT940 in the horizontal mounting position....this may help with VHF Hi?


Have you tried moving the antenna around a bit to find hot spots on the patio?


Have you tried moving the antenna around and positioning it for you weakest station? Then seeing how everything else does from there.


You might should wait for the Zenith, because analog reception doesnt necessarily translate into digital reception. Also the Zenith signal meter will help you position your antenna for your weakest stations.


----------



## gsw234

Thanks for the quick response!

you're right - its not in the red with just my zip... but it is with the full address. I have tried various positions and can't seem to get fox at all. Do you think the DB2 or any other antenna will get better results? I was hoping to find an antenna with good UHF and hi-VHF analog reception at my location and then once I get the Zenith I would be set for digital. I have looked at the tvfool reports and all stations will be UHF and hi-VHF after february. Is this logic flawed though? should I just wait for the switch to try antennas, and see which gets the best 'digital reception'?

Thanks again - this is definately the best site I have found.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I dont have experience with VHF Hi Digital with the antennas, Ive been testing. But do have some experience with VHF analog, but not much and I havent been focused on it. Ch. 2 comes in pretty strong at 45 miles, but Ch. 4 and 5 analog VHF do not, and from what I understand, this is really weird, because 2 is supposed to be notoriously the most difficult. I also have Ch. 7 and 11 analog at 45 and 65(in the opposite direction) miles, to test with.


Its difficult to know exactly what your situation is. One is, I dont know your exact local environmental factors, hills, trees, buildings etc. But you are pretty close to the towers so that is promising.


You need to find hotspots for your weakest channels. That is your top priority. You have a decent antenna, now, but the DB2 would probably be an improvement....however you may need to do something like golinux did, if you cant capture VHF Hi with it for NBC.


Digital signals are different from analog, they dont slowly fade away with weaker signals, they hit a minimum level then break up and offer no picture whatsoever....However the picture is top notch, up until that point. So you may have further problems with Digital broadcasts than you have now. You should get teh Zenith as soon as possible and move forward from there. The Zenith has a very good tuner in it. Waiting till Feb09 is not a good idea.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Godar Model 1*











Non amplified, the Godar Model 1 uses log periodic antenna elements within the sturdy low profile plastic box. It features a lone 75ohm coax connecion on what I am calling the backside, and has telescoping dipole Rabbit Ear dipoles for VHF. High quality build. Made in USA. Very good performer.


I tried several positions with this antenna and it did equally well with the backside(coax connection) and the front side facing the Charleston towers, and not as well with the sides facing the tower.


Both of the Godar antennas came packaged very well, tight and protected from shipping damage.....shrink wrapped with an information instruction sheet.....and a 6ft coax cable is also included.


Recommended.


Here is the info from Godar USA.



> Quote:
> Model 1 HDTV HIGH DEFINITION VHF UHF ANTENNA
> 
> 
> Up for your consideration is Godar's model 1 High definition TV antenna.Designed for **FULL COVERAGE digital high definition broadcast television reception.We have a unique high performance indoor antenna that is considered the best in the industry.Worlds FIRST rabbit ear to incorporate a 14 element log periodic antenna in the base.Results are stable high definition digital signals in all indoor reception environments.This antenna also eliminates picture freeze-up and pixel in picture break-ups.
> 
> Super performance,plus a great design your wife will love.There are no ugly radar dish's or criss cross elements sitting on a stand.Model 1's UHF secondary antenna is located inside the cabinet.Clean low profile design blends in all home and office decor.Antenna's slim design affords easy placement on top of your home entertainment center.*This antenna uses no electricity or amplifiers for operation.Receives HD and standard analog signals with plenty of gain for all city areas.No electronics to malfunction or ware out.We have eliminated the common selector switch that has never improved picture quality.Only adjustments on the model 1 are the rods.Cabinet may be repositioned for best picture.Looking for a high performance antenna that will deliver a super picture?,then Godar's model 1 is for you.
> 
> 
> *Amplified antennas are NOT recommended in local city areas.They can overload & block television signals causing interference distortions and pixal breakup in HD pictures.In many cases amplified antennas will block out digital broadcast signals all together.
> 
> 
> ** In the USA all analog TV channels will convert to digital HDTV Feb 17 2009.Advantages,no more ghost images,reflections,electrical interference.A picture so crystal clear you could reach into the screen and touch someone.Some TV stations will broadcast HD channels on VHF as well a UHF.It is important to have a full coverage antenna that will cover both VHF and UHF bands.Godars model 1 delivers!
> 
> 
> 
> Technical:
> 
> 
> 1,Worlds first rabbit ear to incorporate a 14 spread element log periodic antenna inside the base.Our elements are inside the cabinet out of sight.Receives VHF/UHF/FM, HDTV and HD radio.
> 
> 2,Model one's unique log periodic design offers stable off air high definition reception on both VHF and UHF.Also eliminates intermintent pixel break-up in HD pictures. Reduces ghost images and less adjusting on standard VHF and UHF channels.Excellent choice for your high end projection CRT, flat panel plasma, LCD,DLP, and LED High definition TV's and tuner boxes.
> 
> 3,log periodic antenna HD-UHF.Plus twin 50 Inch rods for low band HD VHF and stable HD TV/radio reception.
> 
> 
> 4,Antenna is classed as passive non amplified requireing no electricty for operation.
> 
> 
> 5,Mounted on rear of antenna cabinet is a 75 ohm coax F female jack. Standard 6ft detachable RG59 coax cable included.
> 
> 
> 6,Antenna connects to all standard external digital & High definition receiving boxes.In addition all TVs with built-in HD tuners.
> 
> 
> 
> 7,Cabinet measures 17 by 9.1/2 by 1 inch in height.Made of indestructible shatter resistant ABS high gloss black plastic textured material.This antenna was built to last a lifetime.
> 
> http://www.godarusa.com/id66.html




Performance testing with Zenith DTT901.


34 - 4

35 - 4

40 - 7

44 - 6

47 - 4

49 - 5

50 - 7


----------



## wwong

Chart updated with *Godar Model 1*


----------



## wreck58

Great thread -- I just found this last night! I tried to reference another post but could not post a URL yet. I have a Monoprice 4730 Indoor/outdoor on order -- anyone try this yet?

I have already tried a MANT510 and TERK TV-5 (the TERK was slightly better).

I am in Northeast Dallas about 30 miles from most of the towers (Southwest of me.)


----------



## Once Bitten

I have a quick question.


If a person was thinking of putting up an outdoor antenna, and

they happen to have an old iron gas station sign post in front

of the house, could they put it on top of that?


I thought it might interfere with signals, or what not. It's a

large circumference pole, and really in the ground to stay. My

ex husband put it there for a basketball goal, but the kids

are grown and gone, and it occurred to me it might have

another purpose.










It's not quite as tall as the peak of the roof, but above the

house line.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Philips PHDTV3 Amplified Silver Sensor*












The Philips PHDTV3 Amplified Silver Sensor kinda looks like a "Romulan Warbird" next to the RS 1892 "Starship Enterprise."










The much maligned Philips PHDTV3 Amplified Silver Sensor did better than I expected. Its log periodic elements are encased on a plastic housing. It has telescoping Rabbit Ear dipoles for VHF which collapse and tuck up und unit if not required. (Note: This unit came with a faulty Ear.) The coax cable is permanently attached, which isnt ideal, although it was of the thickly insulated variety. The amplifer gain is adjustable with a small dial mounted on top of the base of the unit. Unlike its non amplified cousin, the Philips PHDTV3 is low profile and is not tippy. Build quality seems better than the unamped Silver Sensor as well(assuming that my broken dipole is not typical).


Note: I bought this antenna used.


Performance with Zenith DTT901...


I locked video on all but one station, but the signal meter was somewhat irratic/unstable on 34 and 35 and 47. Similar to its unamplified cousin, this unit was very finicky with placement.


34 - 4

35 - 5

40 - 7

44 - 6

47 - 5

49 - 3

50 - 7


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wreck58* /forum/post/14492203
> 
> 
> Great thread -- I just found this last night! I tried to reference another post but could not post a URL yet. I have a Monoprice 4730 Indoor/outdoor on order -- anyone try this yet?
> 
> I have already tried a MANT510 and TERK TV-5 (the TERK was slightly better).
> 
> I am in Northeast Dallas about 30 miles from most of the towers (Southwest of me.)



My guess is that it is comparable to the GE Futura Outdoor, RS DA-5200, and Philips MANT940, in general.


The beauty of these is that they kindof forces or encourages people to find a good spot for them....instead of on top of the table or TV....as well as having very good performance.


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14497111
> 
> 
> My guess is that it is comparable to the GE Futura Indoor, RS DA-5200, and Philips MANT940, in general.
> 
> 
> The beauty of these is that they kindof force people to find a good spot for them....instead of on top of the table or TV....as well as having very good performance.



Well, it came today! So far so good, but I still need to tweak the location slightly. I run it through my Dish Network ViP222. At one point I had the ALL the main stations coming in clear without adjusting the antenna -- but as the night wore on, a few would drop out. The signal stength runs from about 63 -88 with the average about 69. Any suggestions would be welcome. EV -- you the man!


----------



## wreck58

One more question!







Now that I have an extra TERK-5 and a MANT-510 .... is it possible to run a splitter and run 2 indoor antennas at the same time??


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Philips MANT510, has an integrated switch on the back. I dont know how much loss it would produce(probably average 3db which is a lot...half your signal). But its wont hurt anything to try it out. The Philips MANT510 would offer another hotspot location for a difficult channel or alternative tower direction and Rabbit Ears for VHF.


For the Terk TV-55, you would need to get a A/B switch(look for one with low loss and high seperation).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here are some good vendors for the Petra SuperPower 32db and the Cornet 645A.

C.Crane 

Buy.com - Sold Out 

Overstock.com


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Added comments to Godar Model 1 and Philips PHDTV3 mini reviews.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Has anyone mentioned the MegaWave yet?


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14497458
> 
> 
> The Philips MANT510, has an integrated switch on the back. I dont know how much loss it would produce(probably average 3db which is a lot...half your signal). But its wont hurt anything to try it out. The Philips MANT510 would offer another hotspot location for a difficult channel or alternative tower direction and Rabbit Ears for VHF.
> 
> 
> For the Terk TV-55, you would need to get a A/B switch(look for one with low loss and high seperation).



Oh, well! If I have to get my lazy butt up to hit an A/B switch -- I might as well just fiddle with the antenna itself!


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14497458
> 
> 
> The Philips MANT510, has an integrated switch on the back. I dont know how much loss it would produce(probably average 3db which is a lot...half your signal). But its wont hurt anything to try it out. The Philips MANT510 would offer another hotspot location for a difficult channel or alternative tower direction and Rabbit Ears for VHF.
> 
> 
> For the Terk TV-55, you would need to get a A/B switch(look for one with low loss and high seperation).



Actually it is a terk TV-5 (not 55). The TV-5 has a pre-wired coax (labeled "TO TV/VCR") and a coax (labeled"VIDEO Input") connector.I was using the "VIDEO INPUT" connection and leaving the other unhooked-up as it was a RG59 coax instead of RG6.


----------



## dattier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wreck58* /forum/post/14498503
> 
> 
> If I have to get my lazy butt up to hit an A/B switch -- I might as well just fiddle with the antenna itself!



There are remote-control A/B switches.  You might feel it's not worth the cost and choose to get up instead, of course.


----------



## wwong




EscapeVelocity said:


> *Philips PHDTV3 Amplified Silver Sensor*
> 
> 34 - 4
> 
> 35 - 5
> 
> 40 - 7
> 
> 44 - 6
> 
> 47 - 5
> 
> 49 - 3
> 
> 50 - 7[
> /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Chart updated with results from PHDTV3


----------



## tetonca




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Once Bitten* /forum/post/14495496
> 
> 
> I have a quick question.
> 
> 
> If a person was thinking of putting up an outdoor antenna, and
> 
> they happen to have an old iron gas station sign post in front
> 
> of the house, could they put it on top of that?
> 
> 
> I thought it might interfere with signals, or what not. It's a
> 
> large circumference pole, and really in the ground to stay. My
> 
> ex husband put it there for a basketball goal, but the kids
> 
> are grown and gone, and it occurred to me it might have
> 
> another purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not quite as tall as the peak of the roof, but above the
> 
> house line.



It'll be fine. Masts are supposed to be grounded, anyway, and they are often made of metal. Generally an antenna element should be a minimum 1/4 wavelength from any structure; for UHF at least, this is easily achieved with a short boom hung off the side of such a structure.


1/4 wavelength can be calculated (in feet) by dividing 468 by the frequency in MHz, then divide by 2 (or just divide 234 by the frequency directly). 468/F is the traditional formula for a 1/2 wave dipole antenna, so half that length is the 1/4 wave separation needed between antenna and mast.


54 MHz (megahertz, or 'megacycles' in old parlance) is the lowest television frequency (channel 2). 234/54 is 4.333 feet (4 feet, 4 inches). So any TV antenna for any channel can be as close to the mast as 4' 5" (that's off the side of your gas station sign post). At VHF-HI (channels 7-13) that distance shrinks to this: 234/174 or 1.345 feet (1 ft 4 in or 16 inches). At UHF it's even less (234/470 for channel 14; about 1/2 a foot -- six inches -- for 1/4 wavelength at that frequency).


Basically, then, if you go up above the sign a good 5 feet, you're golden for any TV reception -- then the issues become related to raising the antenna even higher than that, to get above the radio horizon. There's a simple formula to calculate distance to horizon given your height above the ground (and averaged terrain). This is usually most simply put as an excercise for math students wanting to know how high the crow's nest of a ship should be to see out to a given distance, at sea. It's related to the square root of the height of the tower or mast (or crow's nest).


Example:


A pair of 60 foot radio towers are to be constructed, over flat terrain. How far apart can they be separated while retaining line-of-sight radio contact?


1.23 x SQR(60) = 9.53 nautical miles

1.345 x SQR(60) = 10.41 statute miles

10.41 miles x 2 = 20.82 miles (tower-to-tower, visual)

20.82 x 4 / 3 = 27.76 miles (tower-to-tower, by radio)


The above says you can see a ship on the horizon, out to a distance of 9.53 nautical miles, atop a 60 foot crow's nest (or lighthouse). It also says two 60 foot crow's nests can be separated by 20.82 statute miles, and the two ships can signal one another visually (using a bright light). The fellows on the decks of the two ships would not see the signals; only the sailors up in the crow's nests would see them. It then says if they use radio, they will be able to communicate 'line-of-sight' radio out to 27.76 miles, crow's nest to crow's nest.


Not sure about the 4/3 radio horizon over visual horizon; that's weak information but may be somewhat accurate. Haven't looked into that very closely.


tvfool can give an estimate how high the antenna must be to achieve either line-of-sight, or -100dBm signal level.


-=-=

Spent a night in a jail cell in Joplin, MO, around 1983 -- with the cell door open. Was passing through; local constable offered me the cell to sleep in (wasn't compelled). Two brothers -- nice fellows. One was a ham radio operator.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Pics updated on Philips PHDTV3.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wreck58* /forum/post/14498787
> 
> 
> Actually it is a terk TV-5 (not 55). The TV-5 has a pre-wired coax (labeled "TO TV/VCR") and a coax (labeled"VIDEO Input") connector.I was using the "VIDEO INPUT" connection and leaving the other unhooked-up as it was a RG59 coax instead of RG6.



You should have a switch integrated in the Terk TV-5 as well, like the Philips MANT510.


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14500870
> 
> 
> You should have a switch integrated in the Terk TV-5 as well, like the Philips MANT510.



Thanks for your knowledge! I guess I don't understand the issues involved with running 2 antennae simultaneously. Is it too much modulation or something? Would an attenuator or amp make a difference?


----------



## golinux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dattier* /forum/post/14500022
> 
> 
> There are remote-control A/B switches.



Yes! I got one at Radio Shack and it works a treat! I use it to switch between two VCRs (which are desperately needed since I don't yet have a converter box with a timer to change channels). Can't image life in the digital era without it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

2 antennas tend to cancel each other out and perform poorly in relation to using just one, excepting when they are clones of each other and integrated with care....see "antenna stacking," or "ganging antennas."


PS- I have a lot of on hand experience with these indoor antennas, but there are a lot of infinitely more knowlegable antenna gurus on this site and elsewhere. Most of them have Ham Radio experience and/or are professional technicians.


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14502332
> 
> 
> 2 antennas tend to cancel each other out and perform poorly in relation to using just one, excepting when they are clones of each other and integrated with care....see "antenna stacking," or "ganging antennas."
> 
> 
> PS- I have a lot of on hand experience with these indoor antennas, but there are a lot of infinitely more knowlegable antenna gurus on this site and elsewhere. Most of them have Ham Radio experience and/or are professional technicians.



I guess I will leave well enough alone! Like I mentioned above, I had all channels working together at one time. Signal strengths will vary throughout the day along with atmospheric conditions. I'm probably at about the best I'm going to do. There is an old antenna in the attic from a previous owner -- if I get ambitious, maybe I will try to hook it up.


----------



## wwong




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14502332
> 
> 
> 2 antennas tend to cancel each other out and perform poorly in relation to using just one, excepting when they are clones of each other and integrated with care....see "antenna stacking," or "ganging antennas."
> 
> 
> PS- I have a lot of on hand experience with these indoor antennas, but there are a lot of infinitely more knowlegable antenna gurus on this site and elsewhere. Most of them have Ham Radio experience and/or are professional technicians.



I am no expert at all, but this is a good reference that you can try.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html 
Good luck!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Combining a VHF antenna with a UHF antenna is much easier.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is the latest acquisition.

*RS Portable UHF/VHF/FM Amplified Antenna*


----------



## EscapeVelocity

EV's recommended books on Antennas.

*Radio Shack: Antennas: Selection, Installation, and Projects*


This book is the basics. It covers types or cables, installing and using towers and rotors, UHF and VHF TV antennas, FM antennas, splitters, amps, n stuff. Very practical book with very little math....it does go into some theory. Highly recommended for the novice looking to go OTA or improve his reception.

* Practical Antenna Handbook by Carr
 *

This one is more geared towards Ham Radio enthusiasts, however, it covers a lot of ground and includes installation gear and tips(towers and cabling). This one goes into theory deeper and the mathematics, but is friendly enough and makes the attempt to focus on the practical side of things, you can breeze over most of the math and follow along. Also highly reommended.


...but the Radio Shack book is much more concise, with more focus on TV and FM antennas, although it does touch on CB and Ham, as well.



Some of the other books Ive perused were heavy into the theory and mathematics and very distant to practical concerns. However, Ive been recommended the * ARRL Antenna Handbook *, but havent checked it out yet. That is probably a winner as well.


Earlier editions and used copies of these books are also recommended.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14502806
> 
> *RS Portable UHF/VHF/FM Amplified Antenna*



Inquiring minds want to know: Can this "_Portable_" antenna be powered by batteries or a cigarette-lighter adaptor?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Radio Shack 15-1607 Portable Amplified UHF/VHF/FM Antenna*


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yes, it can be powered by a supplied wall wart 3v DC 100 milliamp, or a car cigarette lighter 3v DC 100 milliamp, or batteries.


Unfortunately this comes with a 3.5 mm mini plug and I couldnt hook it up to a tuner.


The build quality and design are top notch. Tight strong integrated fold out 3 position stand which snaps into place tightly. Strong tight telescoping Rabbit Ear dipoles with are fully adjustable in azimuth and altitude. The Rabbit Ears should do well for FM and VHF, however Im leary of its UHF performance which would seemingly come from some element in the base, not relying on the Rabbit Ears. Folds up nice and small....has switch to turn amplifier on and off for best performance with red LED indicator light. Amplifier power is listed as 10db minimum for VHF/FM and 8db minimum for UHF.


I dunno. Neat little antenna though. Made in Taiwan.


Batteries were left in the battery compartment and the oxidation residue can be seen in some of the photographs....however, the battery compartment is not ruined yet with corrosion, as they often are on old forgotten electronic devices.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Well, the Antennas Direct Clearstream 1 will be delayed, but the Clearstream 2 is on the way.


Here is a blurb from TWICE.





> Quote:
> Antennas Direct Intros Compact Digital Antenna
> 
> 
> By Staff -- TWICE, 8/4/2008
> 
> 
> ST. LOUIS — Antennas Direct announced the introduction of ClearStream1, a compact TV antenna designed specifically for the 2009 digital conversion.
> 
> 
> ClearStream1's 10-inch by 10-inch single-loop design is 50 percent smaller than the company's previous model, the dual-loop ClearStream2.
> 
> 
> It boasts an 8-decibel gain and an extremely low impedance of 2:1 voltage standing wave ratio, the company said.
> 
> 
> It has a range of up to 30 miles and a wide, 70-degree beam width that allows it to capture signal from multiple broadcasting towers. Its suggested retail is $59.
> 
> 
> Antennas Direct provides customers with a 90-day, no-fault return guarantee on all Antennas Direct antennas and a lifetime warranty against failure, corrosion, defects in materials or workmanship.
> 
> http://www.twice.com/article/CA6584099.html


----------



## dagger666

Monoprice The HDA-5700 HDTV Indoor / Outdoor Antenna Product #4730
http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...#specification 


This is not a bad little antenna, works pretty good for me. I live 14 miles from NY city and have this hooked to my Emerson 19" HDTV in the first floor bed room back of the house. It sits on top of my curio cabinet and locks in all major stations CBS,NBC,FOX,ABC,MY9,CW11 also higher end UHF 21,25,31,41 and all sub channels which my rabbit ears could not. TVs single strength meter reads from high 30s to 60s depending on the station.


----------



## kousikb

My experience on indoor OTA antenna.

1) Terk HDTVa - I bought Terk HDTVa in Mar 2007 for a quite a bit of premium by paying $59 retail right after I purchased my first HDTV (Olevia 537h). I was looking for the unamped Philips/Zenith Silver Sensor but my local circuit city were all sold out that time. HDTVa worked surprisingly well and I was able to recieve all the NY/NJ channels (33 including the subs) reliably from a 26 mile distance (zip 08854) from Empire State Building where most of the major antennas are housed. I never felt the need to subscribe to cable or satellite. My apartment lease expired and I moved to a distance location, this time 33 miles from ESB. Unfortunately after about 2 months, the HDTVa stopped working without any physical damage to the antenna. I dismantled the log periodic elements and used it directly using one end of the splitter as the female end and the log periodic as the male end. It was getting some channels but not the same number as before. I am still clueless on why it stopped working entirely. I noticed that there is a circuit (not a pre-amp) inside the antenna housing having lots of SMD capacitors, coils, and resitors. I suspected that there may be issues with that circuit itself. The warranty period is over, so I started to build the coat hanger antenna.


2) 4-Bay youtube coat hanger antenna - I built a 4-bay coat hanger antenna with 8" whiskers (plastic coated coat hanger wires) and without any reflector with a 25 ft RG-6 run. It worked quite well and I didn't use any preamp to feed into my TV. When I tried to use the preamp which came with HDTVa, the signals degraded considerably. Thus I was using it without any preamp. But the problems were not gone entirely. Everytime somebody walks across the room, the signal became unstable and unpredictable. There were too many variables affecting the reception. I figured that, all these may be because of poor workmanship, materials used and the lack of reflector. I tried making my own reflector using a cardboard wrapped with aluminium foil. It improved the reception little bit but not considerably. Thus I decided to buy a commercial antenna.


3) Eagle Apsen 2-bay UHF antenna - Initially I thought of buying CM4228, but I figured that it may not go well with my indoor setup. CM4221/DB-4 were good options, but I thought of going ultra cheap and thought of giving a try to the Eagle Aspen DB2 clone. I got it for $25 with free super saver shipping (now DB2 has also decreased their price in response to eagle aspen). The Eagle aspen is small and quite well suited for indoor use. I got it yesterday. It came pre-assembled and what I had to do was to mount it to my floor standing lamp stand and connect to the TV using my 25 ft RG-6. The antenna is solid and the reception is considerably better than HDTVa and this without using any preamp at 33 miles distance from the tower. I am pretty sure the 4 bay/8 bay commercial one would be blast, but I am quite happy with the 2-bay. I still haven't tried it with the HDTVa preamp. This also proves EV's finding that DB2 is better than HDTVa.


I will update my signature with the picture of the new setup.


----------



## cpldc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14509973
> 
> 
> Yes, it can be powered by a supplied wall wart 3v DC 100 milliamp, or a car cigarette lighter 3v DC 100 milliamp, or batteries.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately this comes with a 3.5 mm mini plug and I couldnt hook it up to a tuner.
> 
> 
> The build quality and design are top notch. Tight strong integrated fold out 3 position stand which snaps into place tightly. Strong tight telescoping Rabbit Ear dipoles with are fully adjustable in azimuth and altitude. The Rabbit Ears should do well for FM and VHF, however Im leary of its UHF performance which would seemingly come from some element in the base, not relying on the Rabbit Ears. Folds up nice and small....has switch to turn amplifier on and off for best performance with red LED indicator light. Amplifier power is listed as 10db minimum for VHF/FM and 8db minimum for UHF.



I tried this one around 1995 when I lived 20 miles from the transmitters in DC. I was using a RS 5" B&W TV with a 3.5mm jack; I'm guessing its supposed to be 75 ohms. It did no better than the built-in telescoping antenna. I tested it mostly on VHF, but I remember it being about the same on UHF. The performance did not change one bit between having the amplifier on and off--which is what I've found of amplified antennas in every case except when you have a long cable run between it and the TV.


I had better luck then with an RE/loop combo and a F to 3.5mm adapter from RS. You could actually test this antenna with one of those hooked up to a 3.5mm coupler. I was able to find them at one local RS recently.


----------



## Roger Lococco

I exchanged my PHDTV3 for another one, because one rod was shorter than the other, but the replacement has the same problem, maybe they're designed that way.







The rods seem "limp" already, And the uppermost segments are slightly bent, this piece of crap is going back to Target as soon as I spot new stock, the current batch looks like they've been opened and possibly used before. This is a decent antenna and outperforms my original Silver Sensor, but it sure is a pain in the a-- exchanging it.

The concept is a good one, a decent sized amplified log periodic with rabbit ears, but a crap company like Philips doesn't care about quality control from these shoddy Chinese factories.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kousikb* /forum/post/14525901
> 
> 
> Unfortunately after about 2 months, the HDTVa stopped working without any physical damage to the antenna. I dismantled the log periodic elements and used it directly using one end of the splitter as the female end and the log periodic as the male end. It was getting some channels but not the same number as before. I am still clueless on why it stopped working entirely.



Perhaps because it's a Terk?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dagger666* /forum/post/14519890
> 
> 
> Monoprice The HDA-5700 HDTV Indoor / Outdoor Antenna Product #4730
> http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...#specification
> 
> 
> This is not a bad little antenna, works pretty good for me. I live 14 miles from NY city and have this hooked to my Emerson 19" HDTV in the first floor bed room back of the house. It sits on top of my curio cabinet and locks in all major stations CBS,NBC,FOX,ABC,MY9,CW11 also higher end UHF 21,25,31,41 and all sub channels which my rabbit ears could not. TVs single strength meter reads from high 30s to 60s depending on the station.



How does it perform in the current analog 7-13 range. In other words, will it be ok when WABC, WPIX and WNET go back to 7, 11 & 13?


Are there any indoor class antennas which are directional for VHF? Rabbit ears probably won't get it done where reflections are a big problem and most indoor solutions rely on them for VHF (if they bother with VHF at all).


----------



## dagger666




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14532170
> 
> 
> How does it perform in the current analog 7-13 range. In other words, will it be ok when WABC, WPIX and WNET go back to 7, 11 & 13?
> 
> 
> Are there any indoor class antennas which are directional for VHF? Rabbit ears probably won't get it done where reflections are a big problem and most indoor solutions rely on them for VHF (if they bother with VHF at all).



humm i don't know, did not think of that. It doesn't pick up the regular channels 2 - 13 analog boradcasts at all, mostly unwatchable snow.


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/14531544
> 
> 
> Perhaps because it's a Terk?



Darn -- someone beat me to it...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Antennas Direct ClearStream2 (Terrestrial Digital ClearStream 2 Clear Stream 2 Review )
*





















Well, this one was fun. I did a special side by side comparison with the DB2....so as to have control unit for integration into the original shootout....but also a direct comparison with the legendary DB2.


This unit came with some assembly required. It was an extremely simple one bolt assembly with the rear reflector, and 2 seperate pieces on the front. Bolt slips in the back of the unit and then through the 2 seperate front pieces. It screws into the front plastic assembly which contains the loops. I figured this out without looking at the directions immediately assembling within 1 minute. The directions are really straight forward with pics. There is also a nice gain and lobe chart on the reverse side which I included pics of.


This units recieving element is a double loop. The double loops are covered in plastic so I cannot see the actual elements. Curious as to their design/architecture. Im not sure if these are the classic double loop design, my guess is they are, but Im not the most knowledgable person around here, maybe someone can chime in with an educated guess.


I had to use some RG59 that is more flexible as the 75ohm coax connection is obstructed somewhat between the reflector and the rear of the plastic housing assembly.


What you see is what you get. This unit also came with a rubber boot for the coax wire that you use to help weatherize the connection. The integrated mast/pole mounting hardware comes pre-assembled and is nearly identical to the DB2.


As you can see the DB2 and the C2 are nearly the same size, with the DB2 having a horizontal disposition and the C2 having a vertical disposition. I tried the C2 in with a horizontal positioning(loops side by side) and its performance was significantly reduced, though not terrible, clearly this is much better oriented vertically(loops over and under).


C2 reflector is 12" x 20" and approximately 5" deep. The loops are approximately 17.5" x 9.5" measured together....each individual loop being approx. 9" in diameter.



Test results using the Zenith DTT901 - 11 pm 8/27.


ClearStream2 aka C2


34 - 6

35 - 7

40 - 8

44 - 7

47 - 7

49 - 6

50 - 9


DB2


34 - 6

35 - 6

40 - 8

44 - 7

47 - 7

49 - 7

50 - 9


I must say that I wasnt expecting this good of performance from this unit, though I wasnt expecting it to be terrible either. I would give the edge to the C2 over the DB2. They both were very forgiving with placement, but I would give the edge to the C2 in this regard.


Recommended.


----------



## Amiga




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14537087
> 
> *Antennas Direct ClearStream2 (Terrestrial Digital)
> * Comments coming soon!



On this antenna, could you please do a special comparison with the DB2 / Channel Master 4220 / Eagle Aspen. I am using the 4220 now, but I have time to return it if need be.

_Danke_


----------



## Amiga

I've been looking for a means to mount my Channel Master 4220 (DB2) inside the house without messing / touching the rented walls and that looks aesthetically pleasing. I found this coat stand, http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/90047772 , at Ikea, called the RIGG for $20. I believe it will compliment the looks of a DB2 or a ClearStream antenna. In addition, _I can be pretend I'm looking at the Space Mountain roof in Tomorrowland_.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Comments addded to ClearStream2.


I wonder how the ClearStream1 compares.



> Quote:
> ClearStream1 is Antennas Direct's latest model of digital TV antennas designed to receive high VHF and core DTV UHF. The new antenna comes on the heels of Antennas Direct's ClearStream2, which was the first in the ClearStream series.
> 
> "When we introduced the ClearStream2, its small size and high performance made it so popular we sold out of them within a week," said Antennas Direct President Richard Schneider. "Demand for ClearStream1 is expected to be even higher considering its high performance and even smaller form."
> 
> ClearStream1's single-loop design, which is 10" x 10" and is 50 % smaller than the ClearStream2's dual-loop design, has been engineered with the same efficient geometries to reach optimum performance levels.
> 
> 
> Using the latest simulation software and test equipment, the ClearStream1 antenna is optimized for post 2009 digital frequencies (both UHF and high VHF). Its high gain (8 db) and extremely low impedance mismatch (typical 2:1 VSWR) provides dramatic improvements in performance and gains over commonly available compact antennas.
> 
> 
> The ClearStream1 has a range of up to 30 miles and a wide, 70-degree beam width that allows it to capture signal from multiple broadcasting towers. Its MSRP is $59.
> 
> http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messag...81/502996.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im checking VHF performance as best I can now, on the C2 vs DB2.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is some interesting discussion and very good information on the C2, with comments from Company Owner rschneider over at HDTV Magazine.

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/vi...71be5ca75cc8c6 



Common TV Antenna Types

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is VHF Hi performance testing with the ClearStream2 and a Winegard YA-6713.

Monday, August 18, 2008


Thin-Air ATSC (And NTSC): Reception Absolution And Condemnation


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here well respected Antenna guru RickO725 chimes in on the ClearStream2....

http://www.rochesterhdtv.com/showthr...?t=5033&page=2 


Its seems that his predictions of the C2 being comparable to a 2 bay bowtie are correct.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The ClearStream1 has a range of up to 30 miles and a wide, 70-degree beam width that allows it to capture signal from multiple broadcasting towers. Its MSRP is $59.



Thats a lot to spend on a poorly performing home antenna. My guess is they are targeting the RV market with it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

My guess the C1 is comparable to the Silver Sensor but with a wider beamwidth.


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14544601
> 
> 
> Thats a lot to spend on a poorly performing home antenna. My guess is they are targeting the RV market with it.



Assuming you're one of those people who pay the MSRP. You can find this entire line (C1, C2, C4) for considerably less than MSRP without even looking hard.


I am curious to see how this line performs on high VHF. Some makers tout theirs as a full digital solution from channel 7 on up but some VHF reception stinks (I'm looking at you, Winegard 1080).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think its pretty clear that the Clearstream line isnt super duper on VHF Hi.


----------



## archie582

Hi guys if you would be considering buying an indoor antenna. Which would it be? I am considering to buy an indoor antenna but so many options out there... Last one I bought a few years ago was very cheap and so was performance. I am from Puerto Rico and need one to receive some local broadcasts that are unavailable in cable.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Post your tvfool.com info....it will give lots of information about what stations you are striving for and where they are located in relation to you, their broadcast frequencies and transmission power and the like.


----------



## wwong

Chart update with C2.


EV, DB2's scores were better than first time. It probably due to different physical conditions that affect the reception.


----------



## wreck58

Update on my Monoprice HDA-5700 HDTV Indoor / Outdoor Antenna Product #4730:

I re-postioned the antenna to a window facing South (antennae are South-Southwest). I now get all the UHF digital stations strongly but cannot pull in our only VHF digital station (ABC affiliate 8.1) without losing some of the UHF stations.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Add a Rabbit Ears with a Combiner/Separator, preferably on the TV side of the power injector.


There are several models currently available...like the Channel Master 4000, Philips MANT075, Terk TV-1.


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14547215
> 
> 
> Add a Rabbit Ears with a Combiner/Separator, preferably on the TV side of the power injector.
> 
> 
> There are several models currently available...like the Channel Master 4000, Philips MANT075, Terk TV-1.



I'm pretty much satisfied now. I use my OTA antenna in conjunction with my Dish Network set-up. Dish Network gives me all my local network affilliates in HD. I mainly needed the OTA for a couple of UHF stations that are not carried by Dish in HD and PBS. (These 2 stations carry the Texas Rangers and Dallas Mavericks!) The OTA's are also great during rain fade outs on satellite. The only thing I really miss is Channel 8's extra weather radar sub-channels.


----------



## Amiga




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *archie582* /forum/post/14545591
> 
> 
> Which would it be? I am considering to buy an indoor antenna but so many options out there... I am from Puerto Rico and need one to receive some local broadcasts that are unavailable in cable.



DB2 / Channel Master 4220 / Eagle Aspen are the way to go and they are all pretty much the same. I am using the Channel Master 4220 inside a high-rise apartment behind tinted windows. They aren't as big as they look in pictures.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Amigo, he may need some VHF Hi, especially if he is in the Ponce DMA....according to this list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...in_Puerto_Rico


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here are some butes from Australia!

http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/coll...se/?irn=259696 

http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/coll...1320&img=13115


----------



## dagger666




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wreck58* /forum/post/14547196
> 
> 
> Update on my Monoprice HDA-5700 HDTV Indoor / Outdoor Antenna Product #4730:
> 
> I re-postioned the antenna to a window facing South (antennae are South-Southwest). I now get all the UHF digital stations strongly but cannot pull in our only VHF digital station (ABC affiliate 8.1) without losing some of the UHF stations.



I got this antenna and been working OK for me. I'm planning hooking it to the wall nearest to the celling to see if i can get channels 13,10,8,43,48,51,54, 57,63,66,61,67,68 and sub channels. I'm going to use the pole hook and hang it from them 3M Reusable Command Adhesive Strip Hook as to not mess up the wall. I live 14 miles from NY City and have it on first floor curio cabinet back room hooked to a Emerson 19" HDTV. It's funny how the analog antennas were so big and these little digital antennas are so small and work like a charm.


----------



## GraysonPeddie

ClearStream2 claiming a 50 mile range while ClearStream1 claims a 30 mile range?


How would ClearStream4 compare? DB4?


Is there a ClearStream8?????? I doubt that.


I guess CM 4221 is a much better deal for me... AntennasDirect's ClearStream's series of products are not living up to its hype...


I probably don't like the look of ClearStream1, but I don't care for asthetics.










Of course, I can't jump into conclusions, though. I'm just concerned about ClearStream2's performer.


----------



## mikeyf

i just added a simple Radio Shack bow tie antenna to a simple Radio Shack pair of rabbit ears. I suddenly received local HD (I'm 5.4 miles away from the tower, area code 14467) stronger than I have been getting with the Radio Shack RS-1880. Iwasn't getting Fox, now it's crystal clear.

I wish the cable was longer than it is on the bow tie antenna. Is that a standard length for all bow tie antenna's or do they make them longer??

Mike


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikeyf* /forum/post/14570148
> 
> 
> i just added a simple Radio Shack bow tie antenna to a simple Radio Shack pair of rabbit ears. I suddenly received local HD (I'm 5.4 miles away from the tower, area code 14467) stronger than I have been getting with the Radio Shack RS-1880. I wasn't getting Fox, now it's crystal clear.
> 
> 
> I wish the cable was longer than it is on the bow tie antenna. Is that a standard length for all bow tie antenna's or do they make them longer??Mike



Someone could develop a nice small business adapting those Chinese-made Outline Bow Tie antennas with a longer length of coax cable, instead of the 3-foot flat-lead cable with 300-ohm connectors. Or better yet: a 75-ohm connector right on the antenna so the user selects their own length of coax!


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14547215
> 
> 
> Add a Rabbit Ears with a Combiner/Separator, preferably on the TV side of the power injector.
> 
> 
> There are several models currently available...like the Channel Master 4000, Philips MANT075, Terk TV-1.



What is the difference between a Splitter, a Combiner/Separator, and a Diplexer. I have a Splitter and a "Separator" from dish Network.


----------



## GraysonPeddie

*sigh* Google is your friend.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...earch&aq=f&oq=


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GraysonPeddie* /forum/post/14576563
> 
> 
> *sigh* Google is your friend.
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...earch&aq=f&oq=



I've googled it to death -- some people claim a "splitter" (turned around) works others say a diplexer works, some say only a "join-tenna" works and some say "nothing" works.

I think my main issue is that I'm not trying to hook-up antennas directly to my TV, but rather through the OTA antenna "in" port on my Dish Network ViP222 receiver.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im a little foggy on all that myself, so instead of struggling to answer you and maybe getting some stuff wrong.....youd be better asking on this thread where more knowledgable antenna gurus have the answers.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...546066&page=41


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wreck58* /forum/post/14576477
> 
> 
> What is the difference between a Splitter, a Combiner/Separator, and a Diplexer. I have a Splitter and a "Separator" from dish Network.



Dish Pro Plus *SEPARATOR* splits a single cable from the dish (e.g. Dish 1000 series

with built-in multiswitch) into the two Dish Receiver inputs (SAT IN1 & SAT IN2).

This separates the two BANDSTACKED frequency bands:
http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departme...DishTech.shtml 
http://www.solidsignal.tv/dishnetwor..._Separator.pdf 
http://www.solidsignal.tv/dishpro_installation.asp 

*DIPLEXER* separates/combines signals in two DIFFERENT frequency bands,

using low loss filters designed for each frequency band, resulting

in only 0.5 to 1.0 insertion loss.

They can be TV/SAT, VHF/UHF (e.g. UVSJ), VHF/FM, Lo-VHF/Hi-VHF, et. al.

*SPLITTER*/combiner covers the ENTIRE frequency band on both ports,

with typical insertion loss of 3.5 to 4 dB.

They are available for TV/Cable (860+ MHz) and SAT (2150+ MHz), with

either both, one or neither port capable of DC PASS through.

*JOINTENNA* passes a desired TV channel (and adjacent channels) from one port

to the output and notches out that channel (and adjacent channels) on the other port.


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14581401
> 
> 
> Dish Pro Plus *SEPARATOR* splits a single cable from the dish (e.g. Dish 1000 series
> 
> with built-in multiswitch) into the two Dish Receiver inputs (SAT IN1 & SAT IN2).
> 
> This separates the two BANDSTACKED frequency bands:
> http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departme...DishTech.shtml
> http://www.solidsignal.tv/dishnetwor..._Separator.pdf
> http://www.solidsignal.tv/dishpro_installation.asp
> 
> *DIPLEXER* separates/combines signals in two DIFFERENT frequency bands,
> 
> using low loss filters designed for each frequency band, resulting
> 
> in only 0.5 to 1.0 insertion loss.
> 
> They can be TV/SAT, VHF/UHF (e.g. UVSJ), VHF/FM, Lo-VHF/Hi-VHF, et. al.
> 
> *SPLITTER*/combiner covers the ENTIRE frequency band on both ports,
> 
> with typical insertion loss of 3.5 to 4 dB.
> 
> They are available for TV/Cable (860+ MHz) and SAT (2150+ MHz), with
> 
> either both, one or neither port capable of DC PASS through.
> 
> *JOINTENNA* passes a desired TV channel (and adjacent channels) from one port
> 
> to the output and notches out that channel (and adjacent channels) on the other port.



Thank-you! I surmise I would need the "diplexer" -- "VHF/UHF" type!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Also known a VHF/UHF Separator/Combiner.....and UVSJ.


----------



## DigaDo

Here is a rear view of the Zenith DTT900 (April 2008) coupon eligible converter box (CECB) in my home office.


The antenna seen in the first photo is a Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna. (There are larger sized Staples models but the conductor is too large for the center hole in the Zenith's "in from antenna" fitting.) The Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna is priced at $2.99 for a box of 1,000 antennas. (Office Depot offers an indoor antenna of similar design priced at $3.99 for a box of 1,000 antennas.) To save space and maintain the low cost of packaging, the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna comes folded and packed loose in a small paperboard box.


Here are the set-up instructions for the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna:


1-Select and remove the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna from its box.


2-Unfold and straighten the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna, except for the last end-fold. That end-fold should be adjusted to a 90 degree angle, see the first photo for a correctly adjusted Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna.


3-Insert the shortest end of the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna into the "in from antenna" fitting on the Zenith.


During operation keep the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna from contacting other metal objects. Do not ground the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna. Do not use the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna (or an antenna of similar design) in circumstances where local or national codes require antenna grounding.


I am located line of sight less than five miles from the antenna farms in Portland Oregon. In my home-office, with windows facing the broadcast towers, the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna provides nearly the same signal strength as with other Zenith CECBs connected to a RCA ANT111 and a Philips SDV2270/17 elsewhere in the house.


The Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna may also be used as a paperclip when left in the folded position, see the second photo.


----------



## wreck58

All my hand wringing may be for naught! It is 7:30 pm here in Dallas and I am now getting all the channels (including the VHF channel 8). The signal meter for that channel is only "60" but it IS coming in without break-ups. I guess I will hold off for now.


----------



## neutrino78x

hey guys, I am in morgan hill, california, which is 30 miles from the nearest TV transmitters, which are in salinas.


Outdoor or attic antenna is NOT an option.


tvfool says that with an outdoor antenna I would be able to get


KSBW (NBC) -- 8 actual, 10 "virtual" (PSIP?)

KCBA (FOX) -- 35 actual, 13 virtual

KICU (independent but often carries fox shows in syndication) -- 36

KTEH (PBS) -- 50 actual, 54.1 virtual


(there are stations from san franicsco I could theoretically get with a rooftop antenna, but I don't think there is much chance with an indoor antenna since they are like 60 miles away. We do have DirecTV in this house but not in my room and I do not wish to pay to have it in my room lol)


But I can't get any!!! Last night I was getting 8 on analog CRYSTAL CLEAR...but NOTHING on digital!!! I tried both 8-1 and 10-1. Scanning did not add any channels.


Could this be a tuner issue? Could the tuner be too old to recognize the PSIP or something? I have a Samsung SIR-TS160 that I got recently on ebay for $50, which says "manufactured October 2002" and also an RCA DTC-100 that I got back in 2000 when I was in submarines in the USN. I use an NEC Multisync LCD1550X as the actual HD monitor, its native resolution would support 720p. The RCA worked great at Naval Submarine Base Bangor, and Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, picking up all major networks, but both those are just across puget sound from Seattle so I guess the signal was mainly traveling over water. Plus I was at like the 3rd floor of the barracks with a (very small) window pointing toward seattle in both cases.


btw the antenna I am currently using is the Winegard SquareShooter non-amplified (admittedly designed primarily for UHF). I was thinking of getting either a Winegard SharpShooter amplified (which has a stated range of 25-30 miles but still mainly UHF) or the Winegard Sensar III amplified which has a stated range of 50 miles.


What do you guys think????


--Brian


----------



## pestocat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *neutrino78x* /forum/post/14620231
> 
> 
> hey guys, I am in morgan hill, california, which is 30 miles from the nearest TV transmitters, which are in salinas.
> 
> 
> Outdoor or attic antenna is NOT an option.
> 
> 
> tvfool says that with an outdoor antenna I would be able to get
> 
> 
> KSBW (NBC) -- 8 actual, 10 "virtual" (PSIP?)
> 
> KCBA (FOX) -- 35 actual, 13 virtual
> 
> KICU (independent but often carries fox shows in syndication) -- 36
> 
> KTEH (PBS) -- 50 actual, 54.1 virtual
> 
> 
> (there are stations from san franicsco I could theoretically get with a rooftop antenna, but I don't think there is much chance with an indoor antenna since they are like 60 miles away. We do have DirecTV in this house but not in my room and I do not wish to pay to have it in my room lol)
> 
> 
> But I can't get any!!! Last night I was getting 8 on analog CRYSTAL CLEAR...but NOTHING on digital!!! I tried both 8-1 and 10-1. Scanning did not add any channels.
> 
> 
> Could this be a tuner issue? Could the tuner be too old to recognize the PSIP or something? I have a Samsung SIR-TS160 that I got recently on ebay for $50, which says "manufactured October 2002" and also an RCA DTC-100 that I got back in 2000 when I was in submarines in the USN. I use an NEC Multisync LCD1550X as the actual HD monitor, its native resolution would support 720p. The RCA worked great at Naval Submarine Base Bangor, and Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, picking up all major networks, but both those are just across puget sound from Seattle so I guess the signal was mainly traveling over water. Plus I was at like the 3rd floor of the barracks with a (very small) window pointing toward seattle in both cases.
> 
> 
> btw the antenna I am currently using is the Winegard SquareShooter non-amplified (admittedly designed primarily for UHF). I was thinking of getting either a Winegard SharpShooter amplified (which has a stated range of 25-30 miles but still mainly UHF) or the Winegard Sensar III amplified which has a stated range of 50 miles.
> 
> 
> What do you guys think????
> 
> 
> --Brian



Do you know for sure that your TVs have ATSC tuners. I suspect they do not. You will a DTV converter box to see the DTV channels.


----------



## neutrino78x




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pestocat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you know for sure that your TVs have ATSC tuners. I suspect they do not. You will a DTV converter box to see the DTV channels.



Yeah dude, I'm 100% sure. When I was up at Bangor NSB and PSNS I was using the RCA DTC-100 box and got all major networks in HDTV. I'm not using a television, I'm using HDTV tuners and a computer monitor with native resolution able to display 720p.

The RCA tuner I use 

The other box I use, Samsung SIR-TS160 



I'll be damned if I know how KSBW can have a crystal clear signal on analog and yet I pick up nothing on digital. The only thing I can think of is, has there been a change in the ATSC standard since 2002 that would prevent devices made before 2002 from working???


--Brian


----------



## pestocat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *neutrino78x* /forum/post/14622305
> 
> 
> Yeah dude, I'm 100% sure. When I was up at Bangor NSB and PSNS I was using the RCA DTC-100 box and got all major networks in HDTV. I'm not using a television, I'm using HDTV tuners and a computer monitor with native resolution able to display 720p.
> 
> The RCA tuner I use
> 
> The other box I use, Samsung SIR-TS160
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be damned if I know how KSBW can have a crystal clear signal on analog and yet I pick up nothing on digital. The only thing I can think of is, has there been a change in the ATSC standard since 2002 that would prevent devices made before 2002 from working???
> 
> 
> --Brian



Brian,

You have a problem down there. I would guess there are 3 DTV stations you should receive with a fair antenna.

KSBW 8.1 with real 10

KQET 25.1 with real 58

KSMS 67.1 with real 31


your FOX station 35.1 is only at 200 watts, you may miss that one. Do you have an UHF antenna? You could miss 25.1 also.

Play with the antenna, check it's direction, make it's pointed to 150 deg. magnetic. Take a look at http://www.tvfool.com It has lots of information.


----------



## neutrino78x




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pestocat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Brian,
> 
> You have a problem down there. I would guess there are 3 DTV stations you should receive with a fair antenna.
> 
> KSBW 8.1 with real 10
> 
> KQET 25.1 with real 58
> 
> KSMS 67.1 with real 31



I can get KSBW on analog but not digital



> Quote:
> your FOX station 35.1 is only at 200 watts, you may miss that one. Do you have an UHF antenna? You could miss 25.1 also.



Actually I can get FOX 35 here, 36 comes in better.


So basically 35,36,8 on analog...but not getting anything digital.


I think a big part of it is that the SquareShooter antenna is intended for UHF. Plus it is not amplified. I think maybe the squareshooter just doesn't pick up 10 very well.


What if I used the amplified version of the Sensar III from Winegard? it claims a range of 50 miles.


It seems that a while back, I got channel 11 HDTV when I was downstairs, but could not get it upstairs. That was with rabbit ears (I no longer have that antenna). Maybe I need to get rabbit ears!


But isn't the Sensar designed to have similar frequency response to rabbit ears?


--Brian


----------



## EscapeVelocity

If you are using the Square Shooter, have you tried rotating it to improve VHF performance?


You can also add an amplifier, the Winegard 269 is a good choice.


----------



## lessblue

Hi everyone, I just picked up a Samsung DTB-H260 Digital Tuner and I'm now trying to figure out what antenna to place on the roof.


I live in a 3-story brownstone in Queens, New York (11385) on the first floor.

I have roof access and can install an antenna up there.


I'm not sure what antenna would suit me best, don't want to go overboard.

Most of the DT channels are 5 miles away, some are 18 miles away but in another direction completely. I attached a pic of the TVFool.com results.









TVFool 11385 


Any suggestions?


----------



## neutrino78x




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14628406
> 
> 
> If you are using the Square Shooter, have you tried rotating it to improve VHF performance?
> 
> 
> You can also add an amplifier, the Winegard 269 is a good choice.



hmm, but would an added amplifier give the same performance as buying the amplified version of the squareshooter?


have people had good experiences at long distance with amplified sensar iii?


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lessblue* /forum/post/14634368
> 
> 
> Hi everyone, I just picked up a Samsung DTB-H260 Digital Tuner and I'm now trying to figure out what antenna to place on the roof.
> 
> 
> I live in a 3-story brownstone in Queens, New York (11385) on the first floor.
> 
> I have roof access and can install an antenna up there.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what antenna would suit me best, don't want to go overboard.
> 
> Most of the DT channels are 5 miles away, some are 18 miles away but in another direction completely. I attached a pic of the TVFool.com results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TVFool 11385
> 
> 
> Any suggestions?



Here is the local thread. You will probably get better answers there. Additionally, you almost certainly want to put something on the roof.


Good Luck!


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *neutrino78x* /forum/post/14637994
> 
> 
> hmm, but would an added amplifier give the same performance as buying the amplified version of the squareshooter?
> 
> 
> have people had good experiences at long distance with amplified sensar iii?



If Im not mistaken, the amplified version of the SquareShooter uses this Winegard 269 amplifier....its a good lowe power amplifier that is more resistant to overloading than most.


My friend has an Winegard Batwing style antenna on his camper, (not sure if its amped) and has gotten pretty good analog reception 45 miles out.


----------



## lessblue




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14638438
> 
> 
> Here is the local thread. You will probably get better answers there. Additionally, you almost certainly want to put something on the roof.
> 
> 
> Good Luck!



Thank you. Where is the thread?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Oops!


New York, NY - OTA

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post14640410


----------



## lessblue




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14641303
> 
> 
> Oops!
> 
> 
> New York, NY - OTA
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post14640410



Thank you


----------



## neutrino78x




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14638454
> 
> 
> My friend has an Winegard Batwing style antenna on his camper, (not sure if its amped) and has gotten pretty good analog reception 45 miles out.



Interesting, yes I tend to think the batwing (winegard sensar) would be good since two of the major stations I want to get are VHF. although your friend is using it outside whereas I would be using it indoors. I definitely would want to get the amplified version though, from what I see on here...


Today I tried hooking up one of the tuners as well as the monitor, and the winegard squareshooter, outside (we have electric hookups on the wall for outdoor electric equipment). I was able to get KICU 36 in analog pretty good, but nothing showed up on digital scan. KSBW came through in analog but not nearly as good as it had in my room. the neighbor's house appeared to be blocking that channel.


I think the RCA is a little better than the Samsung in one aspect: it is easier to tell if the RCA is actually trying to get a channel! If you tune to something that is not in the detected channel list, it will say "acquiring channel" and if it turns out to be too weak it will say "weak signal". The samsung just gives you a blank screen for digital channels not detected by its scan. Unfortunately I don't have the remote for the RCA anymore, which is needed to tune directly. I will have to order a new one...


--Brian


----------



## coyote_5

Cool, it worked!


Alright, I just picked up the DA5200 last night, and it is phenomenal for me, for the UHF. FOX-WMSN which is VHF-HI, not so much. As you can see I live pretty close to the antennas, they are all in the same direction, and I live on a bit of a hill with no tree obstructions. Outdoor antenna is not an option right now. What do I need to add to the DA5200 to help me pick up the Fox station.


I should add that right now the tv is in the basement, but the antenna is upstairs on the ground floor, unfortunately it is not in the room that faces west. That is the baby room. It is across the hall in the room with the window facing east. Not sure if I can change that.


This DA5200 is replacing a RA 15-1878, which really sucked. I'm looking for something unobtrusive if possible. Is this going to involve a diplexer?


One last thing, I do have an ant-1500 coming from Amazon as well to test that. Should be here next week. Any reason to think it will handle the VHF better than the 5200?


Thanks in advance for the help!


----------



## pestocat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *neutrino78x* /forum/post/14646105
> 
> 
> Interesting, yes I tend to think the batwing (winegard sensar) would be good since two of the major stations I want to get are VHF. although your friend is using it outside whereas I would be using it indoors. I definitely would want to get the amplified version though, from what I see on here...
> 
> 
> Today I tried hooking up one of the tuners as well as the monitor, and the winegard squareshooter, outside (we have electric hookups on the wall for outdoor electric equipment). I was able to get KICU 36 in analog pretty good, but nothing showed up on digital scan. KSBW came through in analog but not nearly as good as it had in my room. the neighbor's house appeared to be blocking that channel.
> 
> 
> I think the RCA is a little better than the Samsung in one aspect: it is easier to tell if the RCA is actually trying to get a channel! If you tune to something that is not in the detected channel list, it will say "acquiring channel" and if it turns out to be too weak it will say "weak signal". The samsung just gives you a blank screen for digital channels not detected by its scan. Unfortunately I don't have the remote for the RCA anymore, which is needed to tune directly. I will have to order a new one...
> 
> 
> --Brian



Brian,

Your real problem is that the digital stations in your area have lower power than the analog signal. Just because you get an analog station does not mean you are going to get the digital version. At this point in time, typically your digital stations have much lower transmitted power compared to the analog signal. When I look at TVFool.com, I see that you have a chance to receive digital channels 8.1, 25.1, and 67.1. But keep in mind that channel 8.1 transmitted power is 1/45 of the analog transmitted power. Channel 67.1 transmitted power is 1/23 of the analog transmitted power. And Channel 25.1 is about the same as the analog, but the real channel is 58 and this means you need an antenna with very good UHF performance. I hope this clears up some of the confusion. So, concentrate on receiving channels 8.1, 25.1, and 67.1 and point your antenna to 150 deg. magnetic. And get an antenna with an amplifier, this will be a big help.


Here is a new idea. I understand that you have digital TV and and not an analog TV. How about purchasing or trying a DTV converter box and connect to your DTV (via analog signal). I have read comments that the DTV converter boxes are more sensitive than their DTVs. I'm sure this is not true for all DTV receivers. You could borrow a converter box from a neighbor just to try. I would recommend a Zenith DTT-901. It gets good marks for sensitivity.


----------



## MRM4

Not sure if I need to post there here or start my own thread. But I'm getting an AM21 tuner from DirecTV to incorporate my locals into my DirecTV program guide. I can get most signals well. A couple are in and out and one is in the opposite direction of the other signals. I need something better to pick up from both directions. I have one of the silver sensor types now, similar to this one:











I read the beginning of this thread and there is too much information to digest. I'd like to know what type would be best for me. I'd like to stick with an indoor unit.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

coyote5,


A diplexer (uhf/vhf seperater combiner, UVSJ) and rabbit ears are an option.



Another is to get an antenna that offers some gain on VHF Hi, while doing well on UHF too.


Winegard Batwings

Philips MANT950

RCA ANT806

Winegard SharpShooter 3000


RS 15-1880

RS 15-1892 UFO

Petra SuperPower 32db (Cornet 645A)


Maybe the Philips MANT940


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MRM4* /forum/post/14649710
> 
> 
> Not sure if I need to post there here or start my own thread. But I'm getting an AM21 tuner from DirecTV to incorporate my locals into my DirecTV program guide. I can get most signals well. A couple are in and out and one is in the opposite direction of the other signals. I need something better to pick up from both directions. I have one of the silver sensor types now, similar to this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read the beginning of this thread and there is too much information to digest. I'd like to know what type would be best for me. I'd like to stick with an indoor unit.



MRM4, try a Single Classic Bowtie. I think you might have trouble with anything amplified.


Perhaps a Double Bowtie if the Single doesnt work.


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *coyote_5* /forum/post/14647291
> 
> 
> Cool, it worked!
> 
> 
> This DA5200 is replacing a RS 15-1878, which really sucked. I'm looking for something unobtrusive if possible. Is this going to involve a diplexer?



Very interesting. I purchased both a RS 15-1878 and a DA5200 to experiment with in order to replace a Terk TV-5 that wasn't doing much at my parents' apartment.


I only had time to test 1 and the RS 15-1878 is pulling in everything they want with a little TLC on the adjustment.


Now I can't wait to see if the DA5200 is that much better for them and precise adjustment of the antenna is no longer necessary!!


I know Radio Shack pushes the DA5200 as "their best"....maybe with good reason??????


----------



## coyote_5




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14650059
> 
> 
> coyote5,
> 
> 
> A diplexer (uhf/vhf seperater combiner, UVSJ) and rabbit ears are an option.
> 
> 
> 
> Another is to get an antenna that offers some gain on VHF Hi, while doing well on UHF too.
> 
> 
> Winegard Batwings
> 
> Philips MANT950
> 
> RCA ANT806
> 
> Winegard SharpShooter 3000
> 
> 
> RS 15-1880
> 
> RS 15-1892 UFO
> 
> Petra SuperPower 32db (Cornet 645A)
> 
> 
> Maybe the Philips MANT940



EV, thanks for the advice. I'll look into the MANT940 perhaps. Are you thinking the ANT1500 isn't going to be any better as a solution than the DA5200?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

It could be, but Im not enthusiastic about that prospect.



I think the Winegard SS-3000 is a better choice for you, than the MANT940. The MANT940 is quite a bit more iffy on VHF Hi.


Edit: But it wont hurt to try it out. Remember to try it in the horizontal orientation as well as Vertical.


----------



## allargon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MRM4* /forum/post/14649710
> 
> 
> Not sure if I need to post there here or start my own thread. But I'm getting an AM21 tuner from DirecTV to incorporate my locals into my DirecTV program guide. I can get most signals well. A couple are in and out and one is in the opposite direction of the other signals. I need something better to pick up from both directions. I have one of the silver sensor types now, similar to this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read the beginning of this thread and there is too much information to digest. I'd like to know what type would be best for me. I'd like to stick with an indoor unit.



Actually, the beginning of the thread lists the best performers from top to bottom. UHF is directional. IMHO, you should probably look for a UFO, that way you can turn it with the remote.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think his desire to use a DVR precludes that option allgaron.


----------



## Gnomie

What a great forum, EV!


I started reading it quite a few weeks ago with earnest then, sadly, I realized that I don't have HDTV. However, I thought this was a good place to insert a comment. I bought my first converter box at RS today, and the salesman stated that "Today, and today only, could I buy an antenna at 25% off." I already had an amplified antenna for eight years; it worked fine.


So, everyone, just remember that they are paid to sell you as many products as they can. Your interests are not at their heart.


Now, could someone please point me to how to hook up the antenna, box, VCR, DVD player, and TV altogether? I'm stumped.


----------



## pestocat

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Gnomie* 
What a great forum, EV!


I started reading it quite a few weeks ago with earnest then, sadly, I realized that I don't have HDTV. However, I thought this was a good place to insert a comment. I bought my first converter box at RS today, and the salesman stated that "Today, and today only, could I buy an antenna at 25% off." I already had an amplified antenna for eight years; it worked fine.


So, everyone, just remember that they are paid to sell you as many products as they can. Your interests are not at their heart.


Now, could someone please point me to how to hook up the antenna, box, VCR, DVD player, and TV altogether? I'm stumped.
I've attached hookup diagrams that sure how to hookup all your equipment. I hope this helps. There is also a document with a glossary, useful web sites, and a list of DVD/VHS recorders with ATSC tuners. Let us know if this helps.

 

dtv_dgrms_1.pdf 33.45703125k . file

 

Visio-dtv_dgrms_2_9_8_08.pdf 19.0771484375k . file

 

Visio-dtv_dgrms_3.pdf 18.435546875k . file

 

workshop_handout_9_5_08_word_2003.pdf 68.59375k . file


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Coyote5 and MRM4, dont forget to let everybody know how things worked or didnt work out for you.


----------



## Gnomie

Thanks, Pestocat! Much obliged. I guess I need to buy a splitter.


If it weren't for these diagrams, I'd probably be saying quite a few bad words.


----------



## wreck58

Update:

I sent off for the Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner from Solid Signal. (They subbed the "Holland" brand). I tried to hook-up a basic non-powered Phillips w/ rabbit ears to the VHF side and got NO signal. (The UHF side still worked perfectly with my Monoprice indoor/outdoor.)

I then hooked up my old Terk-55 (powered) to the VHF side and it works great! I now have ALL my UHF and the VHF stations coming in clearly!


----------



## coyote_5




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14658551
> 
> 
> Coyote5 and MRM4, dont forget to let everybody know how things worked or didnt work out for you.



Update:


1st - wow, I ordered the ANT1500 from Amazon on Thursday morning with the free supersaver shipping, and it was at my front door Friday when I got home from work







Wow. That was QUICK! 1st impressions, EXTREMELY favorable! I have it in my office (ground floor, northeastern room).


In the inital location it did not do well with WMSN, which was the problem with the 5200 (VHF HI station). I moved it across the room which gives it LOS through the doorway, across the hall to the baby room and through the western exposure window which is also the general direction of all the towers.


That did the trick. 2 stations at 100, WMTV fluctuates but mainly seems to be in the low 80's to low 90's (was high 90's with the 5200). WMSN (the problem channel) also fluctuates but so far seems to bottom out at low 80's but I've seen in in low 90's as well. So far, satisfactory on all desired channels.


For my situation, (On a hill with no obstructions, ~12 miles from the towers which are all located in one direction) this antenna really does the job. I may still try the Winegard SS-3000 or MANT940 for comparison. I'll be more inclined if I can find one locally as opposed to purchasing online and having to return it.


Great, great thread EV, this has been extremely helpful!


----------



## MRM4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14658551
> 
> 
> Coyote5 and MRM4, dont forget to let everybody know how things worked or didnt work out for you.



I wound up getting the RS DA-5200. They had one connected in the store and it picked up the channel that's hardest for me to get via OTA very nicely. I hooked it up and it picks up all my locals fairly well except for one, but it's one I probably wouldn't watch anyway. The closer and better signals come in good and strong, up 80's. One odd thing I found out by accident is the one channel I have the hardest time getting that I wanted to get will see major breakup if I run the microwave oven. I'll have to keep that in mind when recording something on that channel.


----------



## strudel.chris

Not to threadjack...


I had a group of girls stop by my house yesterday afternoon. (Fundraising door-to-door) I was watching the Vikings/Colts game, and when they rang the doorbell, it totally knocked out my OTA. My ATI USB tuner must not like the sudden burst of electrical noise.

I had to reset the tuner by unplugging the USB cable, then the power... Then my tuner software was able to tune in to the broadcast again.


I only missed about 80 seconds of the game, but it was right during the 'turning point' of the game... Darn it!


Now, back to EV's excellent antenna guide!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MRM4* /forum/post/14669437
> 
> 
> One odd thing I found out by accident is the one channel I have the hardest time getting that I wanted to get will see major breakup if I run the microwave oven. I'll have to keep that in mind when recording something on that channel.


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strudel.chris* /forum/post/14669523
> 
> 
> Not to threadjack...
> 
> 
> I had a group of girls stop by my house yesterday afternoon. (Fundraising door-to-door) I was watching the Vikings/Colts game, and when they rang the doorbell, it totally knocked out my OTA. My ATI USB tuner must not like the sudden burst of electrical noise.
> 
> I had to reset the tuner by unplugging the USB cable, then the power... Then my tuner software was able to tune in to the broadcast again.
> 
> 
> I only missed about 80 seconds of the game, but it was right during the 'turning point' of the game... Darn it!
> 
> 
> Now, back to EV's excellent antenna guide!



Okay, I'm trying to weigh the (+) (-) benefits in my mind .................... girls at my door have the "upside" at this point!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

MANT940 can be found at WM. Winegard SS-3000 is not in stock by any of the major B&M retailers as far as I know. (Maybe Fry's but we dont have them around here.) However HomeDepot online has a ****load of TV antennas for online purchase and may be returnable locally.


Good luck!


----------



## lepa71

Will MANT940 be useless after Feb 2009, because it's UHF only?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14675018
> 
> 
> MANT940 can be found at WM. Winegard SS-3000 is not in stock by any of the major B&M retailers as far as I know. (Maybe Fry's but we dont have them around here.) However HomeDepot online has a ****load of TV antennas for online purchase and may be returnable locally.
> 
> 
> Good luck!


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lepa71* /forum/post/14676332
> 
> 
> Will MANT940 be useless after Feb 2009, because it's UHF only?



Useless? No. In fact, most markets will have a majority of their digital signals on UHF, and that will still be true after 2/17/09 even though some stations which are currently on high VHF for analog are going to use that VHF channel for digital after the analog cutoff.


Having said that -- if you have no VHF stations *now* but will after 2/17/09, it may not be a sufficient solution by itself, but still not useless. You'd also need something that picks up VHF. If all your stations will still be on UHF after 2/17/09, then nothing changes -- it still gets all the channels in that market which are close enough to receive a signal.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

And the Philips MANT940 also offers some gain on VHF Hi, though I wouldnt call it a VHF Hi antenna....closer to the towers it may be sufficient.


----------



## deltaguy

Have you considered a test of dipole, bowtie, tv signal combiner? I read a claim that adding the dipole can add 2db of UHF signal versus the bowtie alone. This is possibly a good solution for persons using a converter box. I know you have the high tech combiner already.


----------



## onefastwienerdog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14047728
> 
> *Rabbit Ear and Loop Style Antennas*
> 
> 
> 
> *Basic Non-Amplified Rabbit Ears & Loop*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not, these are pretty darn good antennas. The Rabbit Ears give you good VHF performance, and the basic loop gives you good UHF. These outperform many fancy looking and more expensive Amplified RE & Loops. If you have a pair of these around, you should pull them out and give them a try. They may be all that you need. Indeed they may be the best solution.
> 
> 
> Note that those close to the towers can overload their tuners with already strong signals that are then amplified. This wont hurt your tuner/TV(but you shouldnt keep abusing it), but they just wont work.
> 
> 
> Some of the best currently available basic RE & Loops from mine and others experience and testing are the RCA ANT110 and the RCA ANT108. These are virtual clones and Ive seen these same units with other brand names on them as well. These are easy to find at major B&M retailers nationwide. The RCA ANT108 is pictured.
> 
> 
> They have strong thick 5" loops and 39" telescoping rabbit ear dipoles that are sturdy and simple to adjust. On the downside, they have thinly shielded coax that is not detachable. However, they do perform and are dirt cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> *Radio Shack 15-1868 Delta*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The RS Delta has pleasing aesthetics and good user reviews. Plus fine tuning adjustment knob. Good performer for non amplified RE & Loops. This unit has detachable coax and telescoping rabbit ear dipoles that are adjustable in altitude and azimuth. If you dont like the utilitarian looks of the basic models above, this one works well also. Nice little antenna. VHF and UHF.
> 
> 
> 
> *Terk TV-1 Rabbit Ears*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Terk's version of the non-amplified basic Rabbit Ears. It has good build quality and nice modern aesthetics, plus 44" VHF dipoles. It comes with a sepereate UHF loop which is not attachable as an integrated UHF/VHF antenna solution. Its made to attach to the back of an old TV and thusly isnt very useful. But it can be used in conjunction with a superior UHF only antenna as many are in this list. If you need to add a VHF Hi antenna after the Feb09 cutoff of analog signals, this is a good choice. In order to join 2 seperate UHF and VHF antennas, you need a VHF/UHF Combiner. Its worth the effort to use a Combiner and not just a basic Splitter for less signal loss and better signal filtering and handling. Channel Master and Winegard offer combiners but you can get the cheapies and they are still better than the basic splitter.
> 
> 
> An AVSforum member explains this setup.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Channel Master 4000 Rabbit Ears*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Philips MANT510*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the best of the ubiquitous Amplified Rabbit Ears and Loop style set top antennas, which arent the best performers in general as distance antennas, but may suit your needs best. It doesnt have a loop per se, but a "UHF flat panel array." It is also amplified, 50db overkill(I'm skeptical of that figure), but adjustable and has nice 44" dipoles for VHF reception. Strangely it includes a 75ohm to 300ohm transformer/balun along with a nice guide booklet. Has a detachable coax interface, plus an Aux input with a switch so that you can choose between the antenna or another source. Doesnt have an FM trap, so can be used as an FM antenna as well. One thing to note, is that this is a directional antenna, loops are omni-directional or more precisely bi-directional....and is adjustable in altitude and azimuth. The build quality is good on these, the base is weighty and stable and it sits off of the surface. VHF and UHF.
> 
> 
> If you are close to the towers, this highly amplified version may not be for you, although the amp is adjustable like most other amped RE & Loop combo antennas, you may want to try an unamplified version first. Overamplifying strong signals can overload the tuner and you might recieve no stations at all. Overloading will not damage the tuner though, it just wont work. When reading user reviews, often the ultra low scores are by people that get no signals because of this amplifier gain overloading business, unbeknownst to them.
> 
> 
> In depth comparative reviews of this and other antennas can be found on the Big River MANT510 page.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terk TV-3 Amplified Rabbit Ears and Loop[/b]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Channel Master 4030/4020/4010 Rabbit Ears & Loop*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Channel Master has been in the antenna business for over 50 years and has a reputation for quality. This is a very good performing amplified RE & Loop. It comes with a 6ft detachable coax cable and a wall wart for power. Build quality is good as evidenced by its heft and the steel bottom cap. This one has a special feature, it has dual 75 ohm coax outputs on the back, not switched. They are both active, so you can use the antenna to feed 2 devices at once(without the need for a splitter), like a VCR and TV, or Computer Tuner Card and TV, etc. Its all black design and low profile combined with its lack of power on LED indicator light make this one a very low key affair. It has a fine tuning adjustment knob as well, which helps tune in the reception. The loop and rabbit ear dipoles are adjustable in altitude and azimuth. VHF and UHF.
> 
> 
> Channel Master also has similar models, the 4010 and 4020, both unamped with the basic model 4010 not having the fine tuning knob. I expect them to be good performers. Ill be looking into them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Petra SuperPower 32db (Cornet 645A, others)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .












Same look different name, Sorry about the blur.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

How is working for you? It seemed to be a good performer for me, I should check it out again.


Yeah, there are several other brandings Ive seen on these Chinese made antennas.


----------



## deltaguy

I have a Zenith 900, so I don't have analog pass-thru. I'm being lazy in not yet hooking up the rabbit ears to the combiner. The bowtie hasn't made me switch to analog yet, almost 2 months. I priced the 3-piece combo last night online at about $22. It's what I used when Kentucky Fried Chicken came to town back in the 70's.


----------



## allargon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14652302
> 
> 
> I think his desire to use a DVR precludes that option allgaron.



I use my UFO with a Dish 622 DVR. I feed the UFO into a two output Channel Master distribution AMP. One output goes to my display and one goes to the OTA input of my Dish DVR. However, I hear you. I am fortunate enough that just about all my stations (except VHF Univision) are in one direction. I don't have to turn the UFO as much.


The basic non-amplified rabbit ear + loop set at the top of the thread works well with my Kworld ATSC stick. I use one made by RCA with my laptop to record HD convention speeches, sporting events, etc.


The UFO and 1880 (1862?) are still the top set-top antennas? Wow.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/14692187
> 
> 
> It's what I used when Kentucky Fried Chicken came to town back in the 70's.



The one that opened by my house was actually called Kentucky Beef (I know - weird). The beef sandwiches were actually pretty good. Similar to Arby's, but better.


We were kids, and we used to jokingly call it "Kentucky Fried Beef".


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I need to get back and work on the front page some more. I had to take a break.


----------



## Falcon_77

I did some testing on a rabbit ear/loop combo that I have (RCA ANT 115) and noticed that UHF reception improved significantly when I removed the rabbit ears. Doing that is fine for now, but we will need VHF here next year.


To test this, I diplexed in a separate pair of rabbit ears with the loop and did not find anywhere near the performance degradation.


VHF was also impaired by the UHF loop to an extent, but it was not nearly as severe.


Attached are tests I have done, with the two on the right corresponding to the testing today (pictures attached of the set-up). On some stations, the penalty for not diplexing is 6dB or more. Note that higher numbers on analog indicate more AGC on TV and hence lower signal strengths. SNR & AGC show for digital.


Are there any such indoor antennas that properly diplex the VHF and UHF signals internally or is there no such unit?


Thanks,


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I didnt disassemble any units, so I cant answer that question. Some units claim not to be FM antennas, and those would probably have a higher chance of having band filters and integrators.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14709130
> 
> 
> I didnt disassemble any units, so I cant answer that question. Some units claim not to be FM antennas, and those would probably have a higher chance of having band filters and integrators.



How many units allow you to remove the rabbit ears and/or the loop? Testing the net results should indicate which are properly diplexed.


I wouldn't be surprised if no indoor antennas have diplexed VHF and UHF. Most put in amps to try and "improve" the signal.


----------



## vikings98

Just bought the Clearstream C4. I mounted it behind my tv and receive channels that are 73-75 miles away. I tried the Phillips mant 940 and it would also receive most of these channels however it was very hit or miss and had to be moved to just the right spot(which is always fun to try to find). I've noticed that the Clearstream C4 maintains a pretty level signal strength no matter the weather or time of day.

Some nights however it increases and I pickup another 10 channels which are pbs and other nationals I already receive from minneapolis.

Hope this helps.


----------



## CJLS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vikings98* /forum/post/14731391
> 
> 
> Just bought the Clearstream C4. I mounted it behind my tv and receive channels that are 73-75 miles away. I tried the Phillips mant 940 and it would also receive most of these channels however it was very hit or miss and had to be moved to just the right spot(which is always fun to try to find). I've noticed that the Clearstream C4 maintains a pretty level signal strength no matter the weather or time of day.
> 
> Some nights however it increases and I pickup another 10 channels which are pbs and other nationals I already receive from minneapolis.
> 
> Hope this helps.




Were the stations UHF, VHF, or a mixture of the two bands?


----------



## hasan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *coyote_5* /forum/post/14665562
> 
> 
> Update:
> 
> 
> 1st - wow, I ordered the ANT1500 from Amazon on Thursday morning with the free supersaver shipping, and it was at my front door Friday when I got home from work
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. That was QUICK! 1st impressions, EXTREMELY favorable! I have it in my office (ground floor, northeastern room).
> 
> 
> In the inital location it did not do well with WMSN, which was the problem with the 5200 (VHF HI station). I moved it across the room which gives it LOS through the doorway, across the hall to the baby room and through the western exposure window which is also the general direction of all the towers.
> 
> 
> That did the trick. 2 stations at 100, WMTV fluctuates but mainly seems to be in the low 80's to low 90's (was high 90's with the 5200). WMSN (the problem channel) also fluctuates but so far seems to bottom out at low 80's but I've seen in in low 90's as well. So far, satisfactory on all desired channels.
> 
> 
> For my situation, (On a hill with no obstructions, ~12 miles from the towers which are all located in one direction) this antenna really does the job. I may still try the Winegard SS-3000 or MANT940 for comparison. I'll be more inclined if I can find one locally as opposed to purchasing online and having to return it.
> 
> 
> Great, great thread EV, this has been extremely helpful!



First of all the experimental conditions:


Philips MANT510 (whips collapsed, vertically oriented)

RCA ANT 1450 (with included preamp on/off)

Local Stations 28.7 miles, all at same location, *all on UHF*


I have been using the Philips antenna for about a year. I compared it to every other antenna sold at Wal-Mart, including the newer Philips vertical rectangle (indoor/outdoor) with preamp. The MANT510 was superior to all of them in terms of total stations received, average bit-error-rate (BER), and lack of break-up.


I had a chance to test the RCA 1450, which comes with an external preamp. It is mounted on a wooden chest of drawers about 40" above the floor. The surface, and the surrounding 10" or so is all non-conductive. (this is important!)


Observations:


1. Without preamp, it was better on some channels, worse on others, and received fewer total channels. It was *much* less sensitive to break-up as I moved around the room (at no time coming between the antenna and the general direction of the transmitter tower complex).


2. With the included preamp connected, the bit-error-rate improved by an average or 30%, and I was able to receive all channels (including one or two that the MANT510 would not receive, or receive poorly under any conditions)


Signal Levels for the 1450 with provided preamp on: (2nd number is the reference antenna, a medium sized channel master vhf/uhf combo on roof)


5.1 = 82%/95%

8.1 = 100%/100%

11.1 = 100%/100%

13.1 = 84%/100%

17.1 = 79%/86%

23.1 = 69%/84%

34.1 = 74%/90%

56.1 = 74%/90%


No break-up on any channels.


CAVEATS:


1. Best performance is with the 1450 horizontal. Mounting it vertically produced wildly varying signals channel to channel, some much stronger than the numbers above, and some dropping out completely.


2. Placing the antenna on a conducting surface (metal), degraded performance dramatically, on the order of 30%, and in some cases loss of signal entirely.


3. The "hot spot" was fairly critical. Moving the antenna 2 inches horizontally changed the signal level up to 20%. Once set for the "best" location, all channels showed strong, stable signals, with very little multi-path.


SUMMARY:


The improved performance in number of channels received, overall improvement in Bit-Error-Rate (frequently and mistakenly called "signal strength"), and resistance to multi-path makes this antenna a keeper at my location, especially at under $40.00. (Wal-Mart)


It is advertised to work on VHF as well as UHF, but I can't test it until Feb, when 3 of our locals move from UHF back to VHF (5.1/8.1/13.1)


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hasan* /forum/post/14736761
> 
> 
> 
> Signal Levels for the 1450 with provided preamp on: (2nd number is the reference antenna, a medium sized channel master vhf/uhf combo on roof)
> 
> 
> 5.1 = 82%/95%
> 
> 8.1 = 100%/100%
> 
> 11.1 = 100%/100%
> 
> 13.1 = 84%/100%
> 
> 17.1 = 79%/86%
> 
> 23.1 = 69%/84%
> 
> 34.1 = 74%/90%
> 
> 56.1 = 74%/90%



How do you measure Signal Levels?????


----------



## hasan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philherz* /forum/post/14736807
> 
> 
> How do you measure Signal Levels?????



The signal levels are inverse transformations of the Bit-Error-Rate as received on an AM21 OTA receiver, compared with 3 other receivers of similar design (all use the same measuring/display technique). All four receivers show near full correlation of signal levels. A fifth tuner, using a less granular display, but still using the same inverse transformation algorithm, shows a very strong correlation, but with less precision due to the 10 percent vs. 1 percent resolution.


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hasan* /forum/post/14736999
> 
> 
> The signal levels are inverse transformations of the Bit-Error-Rate as received on an AM21 OTA receiver, compared with 3 other receivers of similar design (all use the same measuring/display technique). All four receivers show near full correlation of signal levels. A fifth tuner, using a less granular display, but still using the same inverse transformation algorithm, shows a very strong correlation, but with less precision due to the 10 percent vs. 1 percent resolution.



OK...now I'm even more confused!!


My parents only have a TV with an antenna connected. We adjust the antenna by trial and error.


Is there a simple way to measure signal strength to refine this trial and error process???


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philherz* /forum/post/14737526
> 
> 
> OK...now I'm even more confused!!
> 
> 
> My parents only have a TV with an antenna connected. We adjust the antenna by trial and error.
> 
> 
> Is there a simple way to measure signal strength to refine this trial and error process???



Some tuners have a menu option to test signal strength. If they are using a tuner that has a menu option (whether in a set top box or in the TV's own menu if it has a built-in tuner), then you can test the signal strength with that.


----------



## Toynbert

I am having trouble,


I got a Phillips MANT510 recently, it was my first antenna.


I live in an apartment on the second floor, with a little balcony that faces the antenna farm.


The antenna farm is 30 miles away, but I am in FL I can see the towers on a good day. All the antennas I want are right in a little cluster for me, about 40 stations come from the Orlando cluster I am talking about.


now the problem I have is WESH2 (nbc), ch2.1 is broadcast on VHF ch 11, and I have alot of trouble picking it up. During the night it is fine, but during the day I get visual and audio artifacts.


the MANT510 seems to be a pretty good little antenna, but I can return it, I need to be able to get that station so the woman is happy.


I can do an outdoor or indoor antenna, it can/should be highly directional, it needs to pick up VHF11 and UHF. What is the best solution for me?

if it is outdoor, it can't be very big, my porch is small and I am on the 2nd of 3 floors, so roof is out of the question.


----------



## hasan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philherz* /forum/post/14737526
> 
> 
> OK...now I'm even more confused!!
> 
> 
> My parents only have a TV with an antenna connected. We adjust the antenna by trial and error.
> 
> 
> Is there a simple way to measure signal strength to refine this trial and error process???



If your HDTV has a signal meter, there is a VERY good chance it is measuring some variant of the inverse transformed BER (bit-error-rate). Adjust the antenna for the highest number of bars and the least amount of "fluxuation" . The rapid change in percent signal (if measuring BER) is an indirect measure of multi-path (and how well your TV tuner responds to multi-path...some are much better than others) The more the signal varies, the more poorly your box is responding to multi-path, or the more multi-path you are being plagued with.










In these cases, we are not doing an absolute measure of the BER, but rather comparing the transformed BER using various antennas. It is a perfectly valid method for evaluating antenna performance, and any digital TV should have a menu item for measuring signal levels (again...they aren't really measuring signal levels in the digital domain...they are measuring some variant of the bit-error-rate, which is the only thing that matters when receiving a digital broadcast) This menu item is frequently beneath the channel menu. (layered under it)


Depending on how they implement this inverse transformation of the BER, one can make comparisons across receivers....if, and only if, one is reasonably sure that the different devices are presenting the detected data on the same "scale". I have evaluated 8 different tuners here. 7 of the 8 use "comparable" scales, and the 8th isn't even close, having 20% resolution.


In my case, when I present percentage signal levels, I'm comparing apples to apples when listing performance information on an antenna.


In any case, as long as your HDTV/STB/Sat box is displaying some variant of the inverse transform of the BER, you can make quality signal adjustments and evaluations of any proposed antenna, as long as you control for the "typical" variables, such as position, proximity, height, etc. Of course, none of this is research quality methodology, but it serves the purposes of the average consumer looking for an antenna that "might" do the job *in their particular environment*, and adjusting said antenna for best performance.


Hope this helps ya!


----------



## hasan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Toynbert* /forum/post/14737649
> 
> 
> I am having trouble,
> 
> 
> I got a Phillips MANT510 recently, it was my first antenna.
> 
> 
> I live in an apartment on the second floor, with a little balcony that faces the antenna farm.
> 
> 
> The antenna farm is 30 miles away, but I am in FL I can see the towers on a good day. All the antennas I want are right in a little cluster for me, about 40 stations come from the Orlando cluster I am talking about.
> 
> 
> now the problem I have is WESH2 (nbc), ch2.1 is broadcast on VHF ch 11, and I have alot of trouble picking it up. During the night it is fine, but during the day I get visual and audio artifacts.
> 
> 
> the MANT510 seems to be a pretty good little antenna, but I can return it, I need to be able to get that station so the woman is happy.
> 
> 
> I can do an outdoor or indoor antenna, it can/should be highly directional, it needs to pick up VHF11 and UHF. What is the best solution for me?
> 
> if it is outdoor, it can't be very big, my porch is small and I am on the 2nd of 3 floors, so roof is out of the question.



Make sure your MANT510 gain setting is no more than 3...absolutely no more than 4 out of 5 lights lit.


The real solution (because you are on the "hairy edge" of a decent signal) is to put up a moderately sized Channel Master VHF/UHF combo antenna. I have one on my roof (I'm 28.7 miles from the tower complex). It is only about 5 or 6 feet long, has 3 vhf elements and many more UHF. Fix point it at your transmitter complex and you're good to go. Since you say an outdoor antenna is acceptable, it is silly to try to get by with an indoor antenna. I get VHF channel 11 analog full scale using this antenna at 30 feet on the roof.


In the long run, you get *much* better performance from an outdoor antenna than any super-duper indoor antenna. Typically you will see at least 10 dB improvement by getting outside the house and up even 10 or 15 feet. 10 dB represents an improvement of TEN TIMES in signal level coming from the antenna. No indoor antenna, preamp or other scheme can produce this much improvement. Even a small 3 foot long combo vhf/uhf antenna outdoors (of decent design) will outperform any indoor antenna by a wide margin.


Return the MANT and since you have the permission to go outdoors, do it right and don't look back.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Toynbert......I tested mainly UHF performance. VHF performance on most of these antennas is less than UHF performance. The VHF section is often Amplified Rabbit Ears.


Id say either find a hot spot for the channel 11, or you are probably gonna have to move to an outdoor antenna of largish size....this is the simplest move since you state you can go outside with an antenna.


How about the Winegard 7210P Ghost Killer?


----------



## introibo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vikings98* /forum/post/14731391
> 
> 
> Just bought the Clearstream C4. I mounted it behind my tv and receive channels that are 73-75 miles away. I tried the Phillips mant 940 and it would also receive most of these channels however it was very hit or miss and had to be moved to just the right spot(which is always fun to try to find). I've noticed that the Clearstream C4 maintains a pretty level signal strength no matter the weather or time of day.
> 
> Some nights however it increases and I pickup another 10 channels which are pbs and other nationals I already receive from minneapolis.
> 
> Hope this helps.



Is the Clearstream 4 easy to mount indoors? Is there some kind of stand on it? The pictures I've seen online only show a mast-type part of it at the bottom.


----------



## Toynbert




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14737968
> 
> 
> Toynbert......I tested mainly UHF performance. VHF performance on most of these antennas is less than UHF performance. The VHF section is often Amplified Rabbit Ears.
> 
> 
> Id say either find a hot spot for the channel 11, or you are probably gonna have to move to an outdoor antenna of largish size....this is the simplest move since you state you can go outside with an antenna.
> 
> 
> How about the Winegard 7210P Ghost Killer?





My outdoor porch is rather shallow, so I was looking at the cm4228 hdtvprimer. com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

solidsignal. tv/prod_display.asp?PROD=4228-Hd


do I heard that it has good vhf-hi reception, is that going to be overkill for a station 30 miles away? here is my tvfool info.


----------



## Toynbert

need 3 posts it seems,


would the cm2441 get any vhf-hi?


likewise, as the new 4228 is much wider than it is tall, what would happen if you mounted it on its side? (so it was taller than wide.)


----------



## Toynbert










http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?i...igital2lf9.png


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The 4228 would probably work, but it isnt really a "good VHF antenna." Although it does have some VHF Hi transmission, it isnt as good as rabbit ears....however you may increase VHF reception enough by moving an antenna outdoors.


Im not recommending the CM4228 which is huge. You lose performance drastically by having vertical whiskers instead of horizontal whiskers.


You could use a CM4221 or a CM4220 or a DB2 or a Clearstream2....but all of these probably wont do you for channel 11.



If you wanted to keep the antenna somewhat stealthish and stylish, then you might consider trying the Philips MANT950 or the RCA ANT806 which offer VHF High performance....which can be mounted outdoors on the patio facing the towers. If you have a screened in porch then that will dramatically reduce your signal, as it acts as a reflector. You will have to mount outside of the screen.


Other options that I might recommend that are less obtrusive and or ugly, are a Winegard Batwing GS-2200 or Winegard SquareShooter SS-2000 or the Winegard Stealthtenna. However I still stand by the Winegard 7210p Ghost Killer recommendation. I am not a Winegard paid shill.


----------



## arxaw

Toynbert, check your PMs.


----------



## zenoran

Hey guys -


I'm struggling to determine what I want to do with antenna... I have a crappy radio shack "hdtv" antenna that gets most of my channels but there is one that is about 35 miles away I want to get too... I bought a Terk hdtvA and it kinda works but seeing as it's highly directional there are sometimes dropouts from my channels that aren't in that direct line... The Terk is about $50 so if I'm going to invest the money I figured I might as well get a good setup that works all the time...


I have a garage with an attic in my condo so I was thinking it would be best to throw an outdoor antenna up there? So now I'm wondering about performance of antennas and looked into the DIY antennas and wondering how that might compare to the * HDA-5700 * I found on monoprice.. it's $25 and I figured I would probably have about that much invested in materials if I were to make one... I didn't really see too much reviews on this antenna and I was wondering how it compared to the Terk and the homemade one...


anyone have some advice before I go ordering stuff?


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zenoran* /forum/post/14768360
> 
> 
> Hey guys -
> 
> 
> I'm struggling to determine what I want to do with antenna... I have a crappy radio shack "hdtv" antenna that gets most of my channels but there is one that is about 35 miles away I want to get too... I bought a Terk hdtvA and it kinda works but seeing as it's highly directional there are sometimes dropouts from my channels that aren't in that direct line... The Terk is about $50 so if I'm going to invest the money I figured I might as well get a good setup that works all the time...
> 
> 
> I have a garage with an attic in my condo so I was thinking it would be best to throw an outdoor antenna up there? So now I'm wondering about performance of antennas and looked into the DIY antennas and wondering how that might compare to the * HDA-5700 * I found on monoprice.. it's $25 and I figured I would probably have about that much invested in materials if I were to make one... I didn't really see too much reviews on this antenna and I was wondering how it compared to the Terk and the homemade one...
> 
> 
> anyone have some advice before I go ordering stuff?



I have the 5700 from Monoprice. It is the best of the antennae I have tried. I use it indoors and is placed in a window (although not pointed directly at the antenna farm - 30 miles away). The UHF is good, but not so much on VHF.


----------



## zenoran




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wreck58* /forum/post/14768831
> 
> 
> I have the 5700 from Monoprice. It is the best of the antennae I have tried. I use it indoors and is placed in a window (although not pointed directly at the antenna farm - 30 miles away). The UHF is good, but not so much on VHF.



Which ones have you tried? Obviously there is no formal review on it so I'm just wondering how it might compare to some others...


Do you think it would be good for in attic in garage? Is it directional in any way or do u get what you get wherever it's sitting?


I am interested in trying the homemade method but I have a feeling I'm just going to be frustrated... also ABC is VHF in my area (abt 15 miles) so I guess I probably wouldn't even be able to get that over the homemade one?


Thanks for the reply


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zenoran* /forum/post/14768360
> 
> 
> ... anyone have some advice before I go ordering stuff?



If you're going to install in an attic, make sure you don't have:

Metal roof

Radiant barrier roof decking

Foil backed insulation in the walls.

All of these can kill indoor reception.


Check with the local forum for *your* town, to find out what antennas work best for the specific channels being used in *your* area. There is no end-all, be-all antenna that works everywhere.


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zenoran* /forum/post/14768964
> 
> 
> Which ones have you tried? Obviously there is no formal review on it so I'm just wondering how it might compare to some others...
> 
> 
> Do you think it would be good for in attic in garage? Is it directional in any way or do u get what you get wherever it's sitting?
> 
> 
> I am interested in trying the homemade method but I have a feeling I'm just going to be frustrated... also ABC is VHF in my area (abt 15 miles) so I guess I probably wouldn't even be able to get that over the homemade one?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply



The 5700 is pretty directional. Go back a few pages here and you can see what I tried. I have tried a Phillips Mant, and a Terk-55. I now use a VHF/UHF separator/combiner to receive my one to hard to get high VHF station.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

My guess is that the Monoprice 5700 is comparable to teh group of similar antennas...


Philips MANT940

Radio Shack DA 5200

GE Futura Outdoors


----------



## pbednarek

I have what may seem like a dumb question to some of you, but I'm gonna go ahead and ask it anyway.


I'm waiting on my new LCD TV to be delivered, and being in Toronto (and in line of sight with the CN tower), and realized that I can get a few HD channels (and maybe even some from Buffalo!) with an antenna. I plan on going with the indoor Phillips UHF/VHF Silver Sensor.


My question is this: I know I can get 1080p over the air, but if the program is 5.1 audio for someone that gets the program from, say, Rogers cable, will I also receive the program in 5.1 over the air with my antenna?


Thanks,


Patrick.


----------



## zenoran

Thanks for the replies... Just ordered one I'll post my results for anyone curious


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pbednarek* /forum/post/14776243
> 
> 
> ...My question is this: I know I can get 1080p over the air, but if the program is 5.1 audio for someone that gets the program from, say, Rogers cable, will I also receive the program in 5.1 over the air with my antenna?



You can get *1080i* and 5.1 audio OTA for free, but AFAIK, no one is broadcasting *1080p* OTA.

DirecTV & Dish Network offer some *1080p* programming.


----------



## pbednarek

Hmmm... I thought I read that signals that are broadcast over the air can be up to 1080p because there is no bandwidth issue; with cable companies, there is (generally) a bandwidth issue because they need to cram all of those channels (hundreds) through their cable network, so they downgrade the signal to 1080i (for now - hopefully this bandwidth issue will be sorted out soon, so that you people with cable will be able to enjoy full 1080p on your 1080p TVs).


Thanks for the response concerning the audio over the air, that's great news to me!


P.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pbednarek* /forum/post/14776698
> 
> 
> Hmmm... I thought I read that signals that are broadcast over the air can be up to 1080p because there is no bandwidth issue; with cable companies, there is (generally) a bandwidth issue because they need to cram all of those channels (hundreds) through their cable network, so they downgrade the signal to 1080i (for now - hopefully this bandwidth issue will be sorted out soon, so that you people with cable will be able to enjoy full 1080p on your 1080p TVs).



The two HD formats that OTA broadcast channels use are 1080i & 720p.


Cable sometimes does compress these two formats to get more channels onto their crowded systems. They are still 1080i & 720p but some of the data has been stripped out, which often results in a less sharp picture and artifacts mainly during scenes with lots of motion, particularly sports.


That being said, OTA broadcasters are guilty of the same thing and often add additional sub channels to their broadcast station. The sub channels take away bandwidth from the main HD channel, at the expense of picture quality, especially during scenes with lots of movement.


----------



## pbednarek

I just checked a list of HD channels that can be received over the air in my area and noticed that all of them are 1080i/720p, and not a single one is 1080p... I stand corrected.


Thanks for the clarification!


P.


----------



## maggiefan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pbednarek* /forum/post/14776243
> 
> 
> I have what may seem like a dumb question to some of you, but I'm gonna go ahead and ask it anyway.
> 
> 
> I'm waiting on my new LCD TV to be delivered, and being in Toronto (and in line of sight with the CN tower), and realized that I can get a few HD channels (and maybe even some from Buffalo!) with an antenna. I plan on going with the indoor Phillips UHF/VHF Silver Sensor.
> 
> 
> My question is this: I know I can get 1080p over the air, but if the program is 5.1 audio for someone that gets the program from, say, Rogers cable, will I also receive the program in 5.1 over the air with my antenna?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Patrick.



You can't get 1080p ota because no stations broadcast it. You can only get 720p or 1080i ota. You can recieve the 5.1 audio however.


----------



## Emarsee

Hey there, I'm thinking of getting an antenna, but I'm not quite sure on which one I should get. I have posted my TV Fool results, but here are some things to keep in mind about helping me choose an antenna. All of the Canadian stations should are at a considerably lower power than the American ones. CBUT is on at 30.5 kW, CHAN at 8.5 kW and CIVT at a measly *900 watts*. I've also blacked out the stations that don't exist. Thanks.


----------



## hasan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pbednarek* /forum/post/14776243
> 
> 
> I have what may seem like a dumb question to some of you, but I'm gonna go ahead and ask it anyway.
> 
> 
> I'm waiting on my new LCD TV to be delivered, and being in Toronto (and in line of sight with the CN tower), and realized that I can get a few HD channels (and maybe even some from Buffalo!) with an antenna. I plan on going with the indoor Phillips UHF/VHF Silver Sensor.
> 
> 
> My question is this: I know I can get 1080p over the air, but if the program is 5.1 audio for someone that gets the program from, say, Rogers cable, will I also receive the program in 5.1 over the air with my antenna?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Patrick.



You can get 1080i over the air, but not 1080p...not enough bandwidth in the USA, maybe Canada is different. I don't understand the rest of your question.


----------



## Gianny

I just purchase a HD set and would like to be able to place an indoor antenna right behind it. This is what TVFool gave for my address. The thing I am concern about is getting abc and kcal. I follow the lakers on Kcal and my favorite shows are on abc. I am leaning towards the MANT940. Any recommendations?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

These are some of the best....all your stations are in one direction and a few on VHF HI...you are in pretty friendly territory as far as signal power goes.


RS 1880

RS 1892

Terk HDTVa

Winegard SS-3000

Philips MANT950

RCA ANT806

Petra SuperPower 32db (Cornet 645a)


The Philips MANT940 might be good enough on VHF HI at that distance given the Signal Rx on TVFool....If you wanted to give it a try first. Remember to look for hotspots, and try this one in the horizontal postiion which may give you better VHF HI reception.


----------



## Gianny

I just went to purchase the MANT940 to try out and a channel scan gave me 50 channels. I get a 90 + signal on Kcal & KABC the channels I am interested and according to the chart will remain in VHF after the transition. Am i in the clear now?


All other UHF channels are giving me over 80+ in signal, with the smallest stations having the lesser signal strength.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Emarsee* /forum/post/14781126
> 
> 
> Hey there, I'm thinking of getting an antenna, but I'm not quite sure on which one I should get. I have posted my TV Fool results, but here are some things to keep in mind about helping me choose an antenna. All of the Canadian stations should are at a considerably lower power than the American ones. CBUT is on at 30.5 kW, CHAN at 8.5 kW and CIVT at a measly *900 watts*. I've also blacked out the stations that don't exist. Thanks.



Emarsee, from your geographic coordinates you must be somewhere north of Point Roberts, Washington - I'm guessing possibly in Richmond or in the Delta/North Ladner area. From what I've seen at posts from Whatcom County and Lower Mainland residents, CIVT (CTV) is notoriously difficult to receive. Since CBUT, CHAN and CIVT are in the same direction, a non-amplified Philips Silver Sensor will probably work well in your location. You can certainly try others on EV's list, though in Canada some of these might be under different brand or model names.


Although you might currently receive some snowy fringe NTSC Seattle-Tacoma stations (i.e. KCPQ), there's no real possibility of receiving the Seattle-Tacoma ATSC stations with ANY indoor antenna at your spot. Even a pair of Channel Master 4228s on a 50-foot mast won't overcome the weak signal strength and tropo path. Reception on Seattle-Tacoma stations would be intermittent and not dependable.


Even if you lived at Point Roberts or Blaine, the ATSC signals from Seattle lack the long-distance coverage that NTSC signals provide. This lack of cross-border coverage is partly because the Seattle-Tacoma digital TV transmitters have directional patterns that comply with a Canada/U.S. Broadcasting Treaty signed 13 years ago. Under that treaty, Industry Canada and the FCC are supposed to minimize signal bleedover of American stations into Canada, and of Canadian stations into the US.


One more point: In February 2009, KVOS is shutting off its Mt. Constitution transmitter and relocating to a new tower near Marysville. If you look at the "post-transition" TV Fool figures, you'll likely lose OTA reception of KVOS at that time.

Local Info & Reception - Seattle, WA Forum 
Local Info & Reception - Vancouver, B.C. forum 
Digitalhome Forum for Vancouver, Victoria, SeaTac 


Wish I could give you a better answer!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey seatac!


Long time no see.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Gianny, I think KCAL and the other station may be on UHF until the changeover. Check at Antennaweb.org...it gives this information where TV FOOL does not.


----------



## Gianny

According to antennaweb.org Kcal and KABC will remain in VHF after the transition. I just put the antenna horizontal on the shelf behing the tv. Is not even hanging, I just laid it behind. I wonder if there might be intereference since its laying on wood.


----------



## introibo

I live right in front of a couple of 500 foot tall hills. (zip 06478) They are in direct line with the Hartford, CT signals. Right now I get in WTNH 8 New Haven and the PBS station out of Bridgeport. I have a RS 15-1878.


Is it possible to get the Hartford stations with any kind of indoor antenna? I've tried the RS UFO, a Philips Mant940, which I even brought upstairs and put in my kids room, running the cable out the window (just to try it), and the newer Philip Silver Sensor, all with no effect.


I wish the Winegard ss 3000 was sold in stores; I'd hate to order one and then have to return it in the mail. Any chance this antenna might work for me, or do I probably have to get an outdoor antenna?


----------



## Sammer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *introibo* /forum/post/14798710
> 
> 
> I live right in front of a couple of 500 foot tall hills. (zip 06478) They are in direct line with the Hartford, CT signals. Right now I get in WTNH 8 New Haven and the PBS station out of Bridgeport. I have a RS 15-1878.
> 
> 
> Is it possible to get the Hartford stations with any kind of indoor antenna?
> 
> 
> I wish the Winegard ss 3000 was sold in stores; I'd hate to order one and then have to return it in the mail. Any chance this antenna might work for me, or do I probably have to get an outdoor antenna?



Looking at tvfool.com for your zip code the answer to your first question appears to be no. With those hills there it could even be a challenge to get the Hartford stations with an outdoor antenna. You might want to ask for advice in the Hartford thread.


----------



## arxaw

Find your local info thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241 


That's the best place to find out what antennas may work best for the specific channels being used in your area now, and post 2/17/09.


----------



## pbednarek

I've got a quick question, since I'm new to using an antenna to pick up HD channels.


I purchased the Phillips PHDTV3 (UHF and VHF) and hooked it up to my new Toshiba 42XV540u. I live in Toronto, not more than about 2.5Km (~1.5 miles) from the CN Tower (straight line).


I'm getting good strength from the channels being broadcast from the CN Tower, but I notice what I believe is referred to as "ghosting" on at least one of the channels (a faint outline around brighter objects against a darker background).


Is it more likely that this problem is due to the TV (either it's a bad set or I don't have it calibrated correctly) or rather that this is the result of using an antenna to catch the HD broadcast?


Thanks.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pbednarek* /forum/post/14816126
> 
> 
> I've got a quick question, since I'm new to using an antenna to pick up HD channels.
> 
> 
> I purchased the Phillips PHDTV3 (UHF and VHF) and hooked it up to my new Toshiba 42XV540u. I live in Toronto, not more than about 2.5Km (~1.5 miles) from the CN Tower (straight line).
> 
> 
> I'm getting good strength from the channels being broadcast from the CN Tower, but I notice what I believe is referred to as "ghosting" on at least one of the channels (a faint outline around brighter objects against a darker background).
> 
> 
> Is it more likely that this problem is due to the TV (either it's a bad set or I don't have it calibrated correctly) or rather that this is the result of using an antenna to catch the HD broadcast?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



OTA antenna reception of DTV will nearly always give you superior picture quality to any compressed video on cable or satellite.


If you see ringing around objects on a digital channel, you probably have the Brightness, Contrast and Sharpness still set at the "out of the box" settings, which are preset for viewing in a very bright store setting.


Turn all of those settings down to probably ~halfway. Turn the Sharpness control even lower. You don't need to add artificial sharpness on digital reception.


For an even better TV picture, invest in a simple video calibration DVD .


----------



## pbednarek

Thanks for the advice, I will try that out this evening!


P.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I dont think Canada has moved to ATSC transmission yet. The ghosting he is seeing is classic analog NTSC ghosting.


----------



## pbednarek

Hey, give Canada some credit!


Actually, there are a few digital broadcasts OTA (I'm picking up 6), and from what I understand, Toronto is the best city in Canada to receive them (thanks to that gigantic tower in the middle of the city!).


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/14816250
> 
> 
> OTA antenna reception of DTV will nearly always give you superior picture quality to any compressed video on cable or satellite.
> 
> 
> If you see ringing around objects on a digital channel, you probably have the Brightness, Contrast and Sharpness still set at the "out of the box" settings, which are preset for viewing in a very bright store setting.
> 
> 
> Turn all of those settings down to probably ~halfway. Turn the Sharpness control even lower. You don't need to add artificial sharpness on digital reception.
> 
> 
> For an even better TV picture, invest in a simple video calibration DVD .



If you can, you might want to check the picture quality with a DVD to see if it's the TV or antenna.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philherz* /forum/post/14818042
> 
> 
> If you can, you might want to check the picture quality with a DVD to see if it's the TV or antenna.



If the digital signal from the antenna was weak or distorted, the TV would display no picture, frozen picture or blocking. But not ringing or ghosts the OP is having trouble with.


----------



## pbednarek

Right; it being a digital signal, you pretty much get it, or you don't from what I understand. Thanks for all the help guys. I can't wait to get home and start playing around with the settings!


P.


----------



## miochza

Hey everyone, just bought an HDTV for the dorm room. However my college doesn't have any unencrypted QAM.







So I figure I should try out an indoor antenna. I think my TVFool looks good, I'm right outside of Providence. What indoor antenna should I get? Also, it's relevant to note that I am on the 6th floor of my dorm, will probably help my reception.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

What direction does your dorm window face?


Looks like you are on UHF only which is good. Check antennaweb.org to see if anything is moving to VHF Hi in Feb.


60 degree spread gives you another market, as well, perhaps.


----------



## arxaw

miochza,


Check your PMs.


----------



## cusechamps2003

I have been researching now for over a year the best indoor antenna that will pick up all my stations. I currently have a radio shack amplified antenna that gets my local CBS, FOX, and PBS, but cannot get my local ABC which has been fustrating. Here are my TVfool stats below...

Attachment 121585 

Attachment 121586 

Attachment 121587 


Let me know what might be the best for picking up all my stations, thanks.


----------



## arxaw

cusechamps, check your PMs
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/private.php?folderid=0 


You shouldn't need an *amplified* antenna at only ~7 miles from the towers. It may be overload the signal.


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cusechamps2003* /forum/post/14828619
> 
> 
> I have been researching now for over a year the best indoor antenna that will pick up all my stations. I currently have a radio shack amplified antenna that gets my local CBS, FOX, and PBS, but cannot get my local ABC which has been fustrating.



WITV is on channel 4, which is low VHF. This means LONG wavelengths. Have you tried extending the rabbit ears portion of your antenna all the way out and laying them out horizontally? Optimum pickup will be achieved with the long elements laid straight out horizontally, probably to the max extent that your rabbit ears will go.


Best regards,

Andy


----------



## cusechamps2003




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/14830540
> 
> 
> cusechamps, check your PMs
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/private.php?folderid=0
> 
> 
> You shouldn't need an *amplified* antenna at only ~7 miles from the towers. It may be overload the signal.



so something like this would work?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


I wonder though if a set of non-amplified table top bunny ears would also work?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cusechamps2003* /forum/post/14832179
> 
> 
> so something like this would work?
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> 
> Should work great for your VHF channels, at your close distance to the towers. But it may not work for WSKG, which is on UHF.
> 
> I wonder though if a set of non-amplified table top bunny ears would also work?


An inexpensive UHF/VHF "rabbit ear" antenna should be all you need.


Like this:









The "loop" is for WSKG, and the dipoles are for all your other stations located ~7 miles away, in the same general direction.

Extend the dipoles all the way and lay them as horizontally as possible.


----------



## muchomucho

Attached are my TVFool results... can anyone recommend a good antenna? I'd rather not spend more than $25-30, if possible (unless it's something really amazing).


I've been having trouble picking up channels on my analog TV when I use my digital converter, so hopefully the right antenna can help. (Although I tried someone else's TV in the same neighborhood that's connected to a roof antenna, and it didn't do much better at picking up digital channels).


----------



## arxaw

Get antenna suggestions for current and future (after 2/17/09) channels used in your city here:
* http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241 *


----------



## Sammer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DigaDo* /forum/post/14582642
> 
> 
> Here are the set-up instructions for the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna:
> 
> 
> 1-Select and remove the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna from its box.
> 
> 
> 2-Unfold and straighten the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna, except for the last end-fold. That end-fold should be adjusted to a 90 degree angle, see the first photo for a correctly adjusted Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna.
> 
> 
> 3-Insert the shortest end of the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna into the "in from antenna" fitting on the Zenith.
> 
> 
> During operation keep the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna from contacting other metal objects. Do not ground the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna. Do not use the Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna (or an antenna of similar design) in circumstances where local or national codes require antenna grounding.
> 
> 
> The Staples #1 Standard-Sized Indoor Antenna may also be used as a paperclip when left in the folded position, see the second photo.


 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post14582642 


I had the chance to try out a generic clone of the S1SSIA. While it did in fact work with very strong local stations it was not as good as my Eagle Aspen 2-bay (looks like a DB2) fan dipole with the weaker stations. Perhaps an actual brand name one may have worked better, YMMV. The S1SSIA was connected to a Zenith DTT900 as described and there has been several posts by others about this antenna in the CECB thread for that box.


----------



## electrictroy

CM4228-HD


It can be put inside if you don't mind having it set in a corner, or behind your set. And it will outperform ANY of the other indoor antennas here.


----------



## erostratus

Hi everyone,


I only found this particular thread today, but I'm hoping you might be able to help. I've included my TVFool results below. Basically, I live in SW Portland, OR. I'm only 3.5 miles away from the transmitters that send out all the local HDTV signals, but we've got varying elevation here, I'm just south of downtown, and the signal strength for most stations is weaker. Worst of all, I'm in a 3-story apartment building and simply cannot mount an antenna on the roof or in an attic.


I have tried both the DB2 and the Silver Sensor, along with basic rabbit ears, and I cannot pick up any HDTV signals (no problem with the analogs: they're all about >60 dB for NM). Do you think there's any antenna that will work, or am I just out of luck? And, looking at these stats, do you think my problem is that I need amplification or an antenna to reduce multipath?


Thanks for your help!


----------



## DigaDo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *erostratus* /forum/post/14934054
> 
> 
> Basically, I live in SW Portland, OR. I'm only 3.5 miles away from the transmitters that send out all the local HDTV signals, but we've got varying elevation here, I'm just south of downtown, and the signal strength for most stations is weaker. Worst of all, I'm in a 3-story apartment building and simply cannot mount an antenna on the roof or in an attic.



I am also in Portland, but at the highest elevation in 97217, line of sight and less than five miles from the antenna farms along Skyline Blvd. Most of the time I get great signal strength using an unfolded paperclip as an antenna.


Your area, 97239, is indeed varied terrain. In Portland Heights and the Council Crest area there should be no problems. Down the hill on the south side of Fairmont Blvd. toward Hillsdale or near OHSU and along most of Broadway Drive becomes problematic because these areas are no longer line of sight to Skyline. South of downtown it becomes increasingly worse the farther south one goes down along the river, especially along Corbett Ave. south of I-5 or along MaCadam from John's Landing to Zupan's (in 97239) as these areas may not be line of sight to the south end of Skyline (the KOIN group of towers at Skyline and Barnes) but you may still get signals from the towers to the north of Skyline toward Thompson Road. South of the Sellwood bridge along Riverside Drive and Riverwood Road (in 97219) the situation does not improve, but those folks can afford cable or satellite. The upper portions of Dunthorpe, Riverdale, the Lewis and Clark College area and higher portions of Burlingame (all 97219) should not have line of sight issues.


Other portions of Portland have problems as well. I took a Zenith DTT900 and a Philips indoor antenna to a friend's house on the back side of Mount Tabor near 76th and Salmon St. (97215) where he got nothing, not really a surprize.


If you are in one of the very difficult areas of 97239 I should think that there is very little that any antenna, indoor or outdoor, will get you. But I'm not an expert on antennas. I do know a good paperclip when I see it.


----------



## erostratus

Thank you so much! I'm lucky someone knows my area so well. I'm basically at the north end of Corbett, just south of the Ross Island Bridge. It's good to know I basically shouldn't be getting a signal. Too bad, though. I'm always jealous when I go to my friends' homes in NE and SE and they get perfect signals.


Thanks again. I really appreciate your thorough response.


----------



## DigaDo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *erostratus* /forum/post/14934580
> 
> 
> Thank you so much! I'm lucky someone knows my area so well. I'm basically at the north end of Corbett, just south of the Ross Island Bridge. It's good to know I basically shouldn't be getting a signal. Too bad, though. I'm always jealous when I go to my friends' homes in NE and SE and they get perfect signals.
> 
> 
> Thanks again. I really appreciate your thorough response.



Your location has the advantage of ALTITUDE. That changes all my dire 97239 observations. You may still need an outdoor antenna on the roof. Under law the landlord cannot prevent erecting an antenna on an apartment house roof. I would guess that there are already one or more existing antennas on your building's roof as most of the apartment houses in the Corbett/Lair area date back forty to sixty years. Good Luck!


----------



## holl_ands

Is this a local Oregon law guaranteeing you can erect an antenna on an apartment roof???


Federal OTARD Law applies to areas CONTROLLED by each tenant, such as balcony/patio,

as summarized here:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html


----------



## DigaDo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14936754
> 
> 
> Is this a local Oregon law guaranteeing you can erect an antenna on an apartment roof???
> 
> 
> Federal OTARD Law applies to areas CONTROLLED by each tenant, such as balcony/patio,
> 
> as summarized here:
> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html



Perhaps I may have misstated the legal entitlement to erect an antenna on an apartment house roof. I have not researched this matter on my own, just deduced the entitlement from others' comments.


The thing to do in an apartment house is to connect to an existing antenna feed to determine what signal, if any, is present. If there is no signal perhaps the old antenna has been removed or the antenna lead/connection has deteriorated or an amplifier is no longer connected or functional. If it can be ascertained that there is a roof-top antenna in place with some type of feed to the apartment(s) perhaps the tenant may be able to convince the apartment manager to allow the tenant to inspect/replace an old antenna with a more appropriate newer model (at little or no expense to the apartment management). Replacing an existing antenna should not involve drilling new holes or resealing the roof against leakage, probably the main concern of apartment management. Another concern might be liability issues if a tenant is allowed access to the roof.


In the Corbett/Lair Hill area where erostratus lives the older three story apartment buildings usually have flatter roofs that should not pose much of a hazard. The more recent Corbett/Lair town-house type apartments do have steeply-pitched roofs but these structures are less likely to have existing rooftop TV antennas.


----------



## freaked

the RS 1880 seems to be available in Canada at 'The Source By Circuit City' (formerly Radio Shack) search for 1501880 @ thesourceDOTca . i'll be buying one because of the good reviews


----------



## cusechamps2003




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/14833308
> 
> An inexpensive UHF/VHF "rabbit ear" antenna should be all you need.
> 
> 
> Like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "loop" is for WSKG, and the dipoles are for all your other stations located ~7 miles away, in the same general direction.
> 
> Extend the dipoles all the way and lay them as horizontally as possible.



Ok so I tried this and no luck with getting ABC in my local area even with bunny ears...I am lost as to what to do now, and I do not want an antenna on my roof, I tried that too and it doesn't work!!!


----------



## emt90

Hi all.

I just purchased a Radio Shack *RS 1892 UFO*. The antenna seems to work pretty good for me, but noticed one thing. When I adjust my gain setting between 1 and 3 on the antenna I see absolutly no difference whatsoever on my signal meter on any channel (or to my eye for that matter). Does this mean the antenna isnt working right? Any Ideas?


----------



## M1chael

Hey all, newbie here but I have been reading several threads and saw some folks posting their tvfool readouts so I wanted to see if someone could help me with mine. I have a HDTV in my living room that I would like to hook up a decent relatively inexpensive indoor antenna to pick up some local games that are not broadcast on my cable stations. Will the radio shack "rabbit ear" version work or do you guys suggest something else?


Attached is my readout...and thanks.


----------



## BrooklynGal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *emt90* /forum/post/14960850
> 
> 
> Hi all.
> 
> I just purchased a Radio Shack *RS 1892 UFO*. The antenna seems to work pretty good for me, but noticed one thing. When I adjust my gain setting between 1 and 3 on the antenna I see absolutly no difference whatsoever on my signal meter on any channel (or to my eye for that matter). Does this mean the antenna isnt working right? Any Ideas?



I have one & there is a definite difference - in my case, I only get some stations with amp on 1 & they aren't very strong. When I up it to 3 & then scan for channels again using my DTT-901, more stations are picked up & those that I already had come in clearer. This obviously will vary depending on your situation, but in theory if lowest amp is sufficient, extra might degrade the signal.


You could try 1-800-TheShack & ask their tech support. Worst case: buy a 2nd UFO & compare the 2, then return one (or both, if you don't like what it does for you.)


----------



## Sammer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *M1chael* /forum/post/14965111
> 
> 
> Hey all, newbie here but I have been reading several threads and saw some folks posting their tvfool readouts so I wanted to see if someone could help me with mine. I have a HDTV in my living room that I would like to hook up a decent relatively inexpensive indoor antenna to pick up some local games that are not broadcast on my cable stations. Will the radio shack "rabbit ear" version work or do you guys suggest something else?
> 
> 
> Attached is my readout...and thanks.



Since Radio Shack seems to have a liberal return policy you could ask to try it and return it if it doesn't work out.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Michael, Youve got lots of options....as your stations seem to be all on UHF.


Whatever strikes your fancy, price, performance, size and looks wize above the MANT510. Id recommend the DB2.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Outbid on the RS 1862 on fleabay. I was gonna try it out against the 1880. Maybe next time.


----------



## M1chael




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14969897
> 
> 
> Michael, Youve got lots of options....as your stations seem to be all on UHF.
> 
> 
> Whatever strikes your fancy, price, performance, size and looks wize above the MANT510. Id recommend the DB2.



EV- I just looked up the DB2 on newegg and it recved stellar reviews...I think this definitely will be an option for me. I was thinking about putting this in my attic but that would mean a fairly long piece of coax to make it to my LR display. Will this hurt my reception or signal strength?


Thanks,

Michael


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Depends on your roofing material and siding? Do you have stucco walls with wire mesh?



How about the single classic bowtie?


----------



## BillZM

I'll apologize upfront for finding this late and not reading all the posts. I'm curious about two things.

1) at one time you were listing the RCA ANT1500 both amped and unamped. You had apparently forgotten and hooked it up through an amp and it was performing very well. Have you looked at the ANT1550 (same but with integrated amp). I'm guessing that would outperform ANT1500 or ANT2000 (Smart Antenna) though the ANT2000 has more hype behind it.

2) Has anyone tested any of the Chinese made clones of RS 15-1862/1880 yet?


----------



## holl_ands

Why would you think a flat panel antenna would "outperform" the ANT2000???

PS: I'm testing ANT2000 right now...it holds it's own against a 4-Bay for UHF.


Smart Antennas search all 16 compass points to find "best" antenna directionality

which jointly maximizes gain in the desired direction and also minimizes gain in

undesired directions, such as from interference and multipath....


It's an OMNI (0 dBi gain when horizontal) or Dipole (3 dBi gain when vertical)

for a Flat Panel versus a Smart Antenna with significant gain....no contest.


=============================

Don't forget it requires a Sylvania 6900DTE HD-STB or Coupon Eligible Converter Box

with EIA/CEA-900 Smart Antenna I/F port.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

He is talking about an amped RCA ANT1550 vs an unamped RCA ANT1500, with otherwise the same antenna elements.


The amped unit will out perform the unamped unit. Face flat side towards broadcast towers for best gain.


I goofed up early on with my testing of the ANT1500....so take those early comments with a grain of salt. Its not a bad antenna, it doesnt perform on par with others though.


The Smart Antennas seem promising....but I like the simplicity of fixed position and manual adjustment antennas. If Hollands is giving it props then "you can take that to the bank." (Oops that saying has lost some of its meaning of late).


----------



## BillZM

I haven't chosen a CECB yet, but if I lean toward DTT901 it wouldn't control the Smart antenna. The RCA CECB does apparently. EV's test objective appears compatible with my likely application, trying to get good reception from 40-50 miles away, likely to benefit from amplification. In my case broadcast towers would all be in the same direction (with a few more off the back side; in between Chicago and Milwaukee), and I'm willing to reposition the antenna. I could be wrong, but I'd expect an unamplified Smart antenna to be more useful in urban settings.

Some references say the ANT2000 has a gain adjustment; is it amped too? The RCA antenna websited doesn't list it as amped.


----------



## NTNgod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BillZM* /forum/post/14993881
> 
> 
> EV's test objective appears compatible with my likely application, trying to get good reception from 40-50 miles away, likely to benefit from amplification. In my case broadcast towers would all be in the same direction (with a few more off the back side; in between Chicago and Milwaukee), and I'm willing to reposition the antenna.



You don't mention if you're rural or in the city (or primarily focused on the Milwaukee stations or the Chicago stations), but after you pick up a CECB, don't rule out the UHF bowtie if Milwaukee is the focus.


Using a 15-year-old or so bowtie from a long-gone TV, I get all the Milwaukee UHF stations (which is everything but PBS10; I'm ~38 miles from the towers) w/ no problems just north of the state line - and position didn't really matter. So it may be worth trying the cheap option first, depending on where you are located.


I still whipped up a home-brew 4-bay to help with the Chicago stations, though, which also had the side effect of getting VHF stations as well.


I had similar results on both the RCA box (when I was testing it before giving it to my grandmother) and the Zenith 901.


----------



## BillZM




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NTNgod* /forum/post/14993905
> 
> 
> You don't mention if you're rural or in the city (or primarily focused on the Milwaukee stations or the Chicago stations), but after you pick up a CECB, don't rule out the UHF bowtie if Milwaukee is the focus.



I'm in Racine, so Milwaukee should be easy. Chicago's the goal, as a supplement to cable.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BillZM* /forum/post/14993881
> 
> 
> I haven't chosen a CECB yet, but if I lean toward DTT901 it wouldn't control the Smart antenna. The RCA CECB does apparently. EV's test objective appears compatible with my likely application, trying to get good reception from 40-50 miles away, likely to benefit from amplification. In my case broadcast towers would all be in the same direction (with a few more off the back side; in between Chicago and Milwaukee), and I'm willing to reposition the antenna. I could be wrong, but I'd expect an unamplified Smart antenna to be more useful in urban settings.
> 
> Some references say the ANT2000 has a gain adjustment; is it amped too? The RCA antenna website doesn't list it as amped.



RCA ANT2000 User's Guide says *"up to 20 dB gain"*:

*"Employs built-in low-noise amplifier and auto-gain controller for reducing

interference and adding just the right amount of signal enhancement."*


I interpret this to mean it should be able to reduce overall gain when

desensitization due to signal overload is present....but until I have a

chance to verify operations in a strong signal environment, I'll remain

skeptical whether it actually goes through this extra step.


==============================
*RCA DTA-800B1* CECB takes forever to scan, only adapts antenna during the

long rescan process and too many button pushes to find the Signal Meter.

It had a bad power supply, so I'm returning it....with extreme prejudice....

*Apex DT-502* menus are similar to Tivax but apparently won't accept

a REAL channel number??? I'm not done playing with it....


==================================
*Tivax STB-T8* (with APT) is my favorite so far...it includes ability to adapt

on an as yet unrecognized channel and I really like their menus & R/C.

It has both Signal Quality (residual bit error rate) and Signal Level (AGC) meters.


Last week I was at my son's place (70 miles from 5000-ft Mt. Wilson in L.A.)

finding roughly same UHF performance for RCA ANT2000 vs DTA-5000.

Since it was way too hot to enter his attic (over 100-deg outside), I only got

about half the L.A. stations w antennas on top of his wood patio pergola.


I also received channels from THREE other directions....something his fixed

CM-4228 can't do....and in his attic I'll check for four from San Diego.

However, small smart antennas probably don't stand a chance against

the CM-4228.....on a ROTATOR.


==========================================

More information re this (and upcoming) Smart Antenna tests:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14996150


----------



## NTNgod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BillZM* /forum/post/14994760
> 
> 
> I'm in Racine, so Milwaukee should be easy. Chicago's the goal, as a supplement to cable.



Ah, then you are in a similar situation to me; I started tinkering around with indoor antennas for myself since TimeWarner only provides the Chicago stations in analog, and I wanted to grab the Chicago digital signals for my HTPC.


You're probably about 10-15 miles north of me, I'd guess (I'm about ~53 miles from most Chicago transmitters), so my experiences might not directly correspond to yours.


In my location (and my grandmother's - she's practically right on the state line and about ~48 miles from most Chicago transmitters), I had worse luck with amped antennas, surprisingly.


I tried a couple of store-bought indoor antennas for her - the RCA 1450 (disappointing in both locations, amp or no amp, and multiple positions - no better than the bowtie and even my 2-bay homebrew blew it away, much less my 4-bay). Tried one of those $30 Philips antennas that had a favorable impression earlier in this thread - same story (same as bowtie, worse than my homebrews).


----------



## NTNgod

For comparison, here's my current TVfool (the only stations switching post shutoff that I'm interested in are WVTV [back to RF18], WLS [back to RF7] and WBBM [up to RF12]):


----------



## M1chael




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14973846
> 
> 
> Depends on your roofing material and siding? Do you have stucco walls with wire mesh?
> 
> 
> 
> How about the single classic bowtie?



My roofing material is just the standard plywood/shingles and siding is plywood/vinyl siding. I do not have stucco walls w/wire mesh....vinyl siding.


Not sure about what you are asking about the classic bowtie...if it's whether or not I have one than the answer would be no, I do not have any antenna at this point other than my fabricated one out of coax










Thanks,

Michael


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Try the single classic bowtie....its rather good and you only need a supplimentary antenna.


----------



## scott_atm

Alright - I have my first HDTV arriving next week and and am plannig to pull all my stations OTA. This thread has been a wealth of over-information ;-) I read through many posts and have not seen much discussion about people in appartment buildings. Here is my situation


Sony w4100 TV in a 9th floor apartment (18 story building) in downtown boston. I have one window facing almost due south. What will be my best approach for trying to pull my stations OTA? By that i mean what shoudl i try first 


Scott
Attachment 123964


----------



## pestocat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scott_atm* /forum/post/15032675
> 
> 
> Alright - I have my first HDTV arriving next week and and am plannig to pull all my stations OTA. This thread has been a wealth of over-information ;-) I read through many posts and have not seen much discussion about people in appartment buildings. Here is my situation
> 
> 
> Sony w4100 TV in a 9th floor apartment (18 story building) in downtown boston. I have one window facing almost due south. What will be my best approach for trying to pull my stations OTA? By that i mean what shoudl i try first
> 
> 
> Scott
> Attachment 123964



Scott,

Are you receiving any OTA analog stations now. I assume your apartment building is not going to support the DTV transition with a signal coming out of the coax connector on your wall.


----------



## scott_atm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pestocat* /forum/post/15033327
> 
> 
> Scott,
> 
> Are you receiving any OTA analog stations now. I assume your apartment building is not going to support the DTV transition with a signal coming out of the coax connector on your wall.



I am embarrased to admit this on this forum, but right now i don't have a TV at all and haven't since i moved into the building. I know they have Comcast cable but i dont know what all i will find when i plug into the wall. I will certainly give that a shot. I assumed (which we all know how much problems that causes) that i won't get anything from the building and i will have to grab something OTA. I was going to order an antenna online before the TV arrived to avoid waiting for shipping....after your post made me think, i may just wait and plug it into the wall first. Who knows what will be on the other end


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scott_atm* /forum/post/15032675
> 
> 
> Alright - I have my first HDTV arriving next week and and am plannig to pull all my stations OTA. This thread has been a wealth of over-information ;-) I read through many posts and have not seen much discussion about people in appartment buildings. Here is my situation
> 
> 
> Sony w4100 TV in a 9th floor apartment (18 story building) in downtown boston. I have one window facing almost due south. What will be my best approach for trying to pull my stations OTA? By that i mean what shoudl i try first



In a downtown apartment, I suspect your biggest challenge -- by far -- will be multipath.


----------



## pestocat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scott_atm* /forum/post/15033380
> 
> 
> I am embarrased to admit this on this forum, but right now i don't have a TV at all and haven't since i moved into the building. I know they have Comcast cable but i dont know what all i will find when i plug into the wall. I will certainly give that a shot. I assumed (which we all know how much problems that causes) that i won't get anything from the building and i will have to grab something OTA. I was going to order an antenna online before the TV arrived to avoid waiting for shipping....after your post made me think, i may just wait and plug it into the wall first. Who knows what will be on the other end



scott_atm,

No need to be embarrased. You are probably on the correct course of action. Many apartment and condo complexes have built-in antenna systems. The only problem is that management has an antenna on the roof and selects analog channels and amplifies these throughout the complex. The problem is if a apartment dweller connects his/her DTV or DTV converter to the jack on the wall and scans for channels they get zero or just a couple digital signals slipping through. This is why you need to use your own OTA antennna. At the 18th floor, I assume you don't have a balcony, so having the antenna pointing out a window is good. The main idea is to have the antenna out of the traffic pattern in you apartment. This is so when people walk around they don't upset the signal. You have some very close high power signals, so I would start with a simple set of rabbit ears and see what happens. Then you can upgrade as needed. Talk to your apartment management and your neighbors to find out what they do. Good luck.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Big Cities have peculiar problems and while this thread is useful too, you may want to discuss your situation with others in the Boston area that know the broadcasters and local issues uniquely.


Here is the the Boston thread in AVSforum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...93008&page=136


----------



## scott_atm

Thanks for sharing your expertise and experience. I will wait till the set arrives and do some experimeting of my own. From what it sounds like, it will be tough to buy an antenna ahead of time.


With regards to an existing anteanna in the building. Is it the amplifer that filters out digital content or is there something else in the path that would restrict DTV?


----------



## pestocat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scott_atm* /forum/post/15039404
> 
> 
> Thanks for sharing your expertise and experience. I will wait till the set arrives and do some experimeting of my own. From what it sounds like, it will be tough to buy an antenna ahead of time.
> 
> 
> With regards to an existing anteanna in the building. Is it the amplifer that filters out digital content or is there something else in the path that would restrict DTV?



My guess is that the system filters in the wanted signal (analog) and then amplifies this collection of analog channels. If a digital channel is next to an analog, the digital could sneak through. There is probably someone out there that knows more about the community broadcast systems that apartment and condo complexes use.


----------



## rec630




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pestocat* /forum/post/15039987
> 
> 
> My guess is that the system filters in the wanted signal (analog) and then amplifies this collection of analog channels. If a digital channel is next to an analog, the digital could sneak through. There is probably someone out there that knows more about the community broadcast systems that apartment and condo complexes use.



THANKS! I think you've just explained why I got a grand total of 1 channel when I hooked my DTT901 CECB up to my building antenna. Hooking up an old RS set top antenna I found in storage I had 20+ channels after scanning (although I get too much interference). Now when the landlord says noone else has problems with TV reception, I know where to direct the conversation.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wwong* /forum/post/14545642
> 
> 
> Chart update with C2.
> 
> 
> EV, DB2's scores were better than first time...



Last update was under response 929. You might also include a link to the performance chart on the first page so it's easier for new visitors to see the shoot-out test numbers.


Have you had a chance to test an RCA ANT2000 Smart Antenna (which would require a Smart Antenna-equipped CECB)?


----------



## PCTools

This looks like a big advertisement to me...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

@Seatac


No plans to check out the RCA ANT2000 Smart Antenna.


Posted chart to front page.


@PCTools


I own several antenna factories in China.....BUSTED!


----------



## TVOD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15059857
> 
> 
> I own several antenna factories in China.....BUSTED!



That's a great product from those factories:


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/14080176
> 
> 
> The Winegard HD-1080 would also make a good VHF-Hi/UHF indoor antenna...I think I'm going to order one of them and do a comparison with my CM-4220.



This was mentioned back in June, and I am curious whether n4yqt or anyone else has tried the Winegard HD-1080 . It just seems like there's got to be an alternative to rabbit ears for indoor VHF reception.


I've been using the Terk HDTVa for almost a year, and it works great, but I've got a couple of issues with it. First, it's a little too directional (on UHF) for my needs; and second, I've got one very difficult to get digital station on VHF 11. It's difficult because it's about 60-70 miles away. I can get it occasionally with the Terk, but I'd like to find something that will bring it in more consistently.


The Winegard HD-1080 seems like a good investment, but I haven't been able to find a great deal of reviews about it. Does anyone here have any experience with this one or have any alternate suggestions? By the way, I live in an apartment, so an outdoor antenna is not an option.


----------



## pbednarek

Quick question: Is it possible to connect an HDTV antenna (I have an amplified Phillips UHF/VHF) to an AV receiver, to pass the signal through the receiver before it goes to the TV (via HDMI) and speakers? I've never seen an AV receiver with a coax video input (for OTA broadcasts).


----------



## pbednarek

It just dawned upon me that the receiver would have to have a digital tuner built into it.


----------



## holl_ands

About the best you can hope for in an all-wireless solution is to locate an OTA HD-STB

or lo-rez CECB Converter Box in the attic and use a wireless extender.


Search for "Wireless HDMI Extender", "Wireless Component Video Extender",

"Wireless S-Video Extender or "Wireless Composite Video Extender"....
http://www.summitsource.com/advanced...c4a804&x=0&y=0 
http://www.avtechsolutions.com/he_av...FRNOagod_CBjXw 
http://www.google.com/products?q=wir...nder&scoring=p 
http://www.ramelectronics.net/ 

[See bottom left for wireless products.]


If the extender doesn't include R/C, then you'll need another wireless extender for R/C.

(R-S also makes one).


Video via Cat5 cable is fairly common....but requires wires....


Video via Power Line (e.g BPL, Broadband via Powerline) is still fairly rare and actually

means Video Via Internet Protocol (VVIP). See list of approved BPL Homeplug devices:
http://www.homeplug.org/kshowcase/view 

Note they use E-N I/Fs and avoid actual video interfaces (something to do with security.....).


----------



## cableuser001

Hi,

I live in a rented place and it has an antenna and it works. However, I am trying to run a cable into the bedroom from the living rom. I am not getting as many channels. The signal seems to be deteriorated. The cable is about 75 ft long, and it was a left-over from Cox cable. I am guessing it would be a RG6/U (nothing is written over it)


Any ideas if I can use an amplifier. If so, what kind? Please include any links.


Thanks.


----------



## ceprise

We are using an Eagle Aspen twin bow-tie antenna, mounted on a W-M pole lamp. Using an Insignia/Zenith DTV converter box, and the antenna map from TVFools, I was able to get 11 Scranton/W-B digital stations from 73.6 miles away.


We were fortunate that the living room picture window faced the right direction, and the stations were line-of-site, with no high obstructions. All the leaves are off the trees, so this may have an effect in the summer.


Previous reception was two very snowy analog UHF stations, again from Scranton.


There were indications of more channels to be had (scan picked up very weak signals), so I will next try a four bow-tie antenna from Antennacraft, again mounted indoors on a pole lamp.


Viva the digital revolution!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post15105826


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceprise* /forum/post/15122297
> 
> 
> Viva the digital revolution!



Yeah, but **** subchannels.


----------



## ceprise

Hey! It was 11 channels from 73.6 miles away! In a deep fringe area that only got two snowy UHF analog stations. And you are carping over four PBS sub-channels? Using an indoor antenna???


Those of you who are channel rich scoff at my deep fringe reception.


My cousin thinks I'm a genius. I still am in awe of the technology.


----------



## Rammitinski

Yeah, I get like 60-something stations OTA from 3 markets, so I'm not knocking that.


This is really only a section for anything to do with HDTV - not SD from CECB's. I mean, it's a great accomplishment, but technically you shouldn't even be posting that here.


----------



## allargon

I picked up another UFO off Fleabay. It actually does better if I turn it off.


I turned both off, and I have fewer problems. I must've been overamping. I can't do a bowtie thing as I have two VHF stations (one is Fox and one is I occasionally care for the digital SD Univision).


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/15126447
> 
> 
> This is really only a section for anything to do with HDTV - not SD from CECB's. I mean, it's a great accomplishment, but technically you shouldn't even be posting that here.



Sounds like you missed the point of the original post. The author was posting about his/her experience with the Eagle Aspen antenna which is perfectly valid for this sub-forum.


As far as HDTV is concerned, the HDTV label has been used on AVS Forum to refer to all forms of DTV for a long time now. In fact, all of the CECB sub-forums fall under the HDTV umbrella even though CECBs are SD by definition. I haven't seen any sub-forums specifically related to the SD form of DTV; so where, in your opinion, did this posting belong?


----------



## scott_atm

I just wanted to post a quick follow up an interim antenna solution. I am in downtown Boston with tall buildings around. I was successfully able to pull HD signals for all the major networks (wfxt-fox is still giving me an issue). My solution is rudimentary at best.


I used a 28 gauge wire connected to the inner contact on the antenna input to the TV. I have this wrapped onto the outer contact of a 25 foot coax cable (essentially using the shield of the cable to extend the length of the wire). It works surprisingly well. The achilles heal of my contraption is the "connection" between the 28 AWG wire and teh coax cable. I will be investing in a real antenna at some point, but knowing this would work would have been helpful for me a few weeks ago (hence why i am posting here). Anyone have any ideas why Fox (25.1) woudl be giving me problems?

Attachment 123964 


I am thinking about a DB2 mounted in the window (that i currently have the coax cable hanging in) as a more permanent solution. Based on my current success i imagine this will be overkill, but we won't be in an apartment for long and it shoudl be a good canidate for my house. Besides it seems tough to beat for less than 40 bucks. Is amazon the vendor of choice for this sort of thing?


----------



## Rammitinski

Rick - As long as it stays strictly on the subject of reception, it belongs here. Otherwise it belongs in the CECB sub-forum. That's already been decided on by the people and the moderators in the past.


And you're wrong - HDTV and SDTV has historically _always_ remained separate here, except for technical reception issues (or cables, or things like that), which cross over into both areas, of course. For example, you only see HD tuners talked about here - _not_ any 480i-only ones. Same thing goes for the Programming sub-forum - _only_ HD programming. Recorders, too (480i HDD/DVD recorder discussions go in the DVD Recorders forum).


I was just cutting it off at the pass, in case it started veering towards other areas like the amount of channels and the programming on them. I just didn't want to see it turn into another "quantity vs. quality" argument, which really is frowned upon in the HDTV area. I mean, you can bring it up (in the case of HD, or SD subchannels as they _affect_ the OTA HD channels) - but at your own risk, because you'll be ganged up on big time by the HD purists here (which I'm one of - we tend to have bigger displays which show the problems more).


----------



## ceprise




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/15129398
> 
> 
> Rick - As long as it stays strictly on the subject of reception, it belongs here. Otherwise it belongs in the CECB sub-forum. That's already been decided on by the people and the moderators in the past.
> 
> 
> And you're wrong - HDTV and SDTV has historically _always_ remained separate here, except for technical reception issues (or cables, or things like that), which cross over into both areas, of course. For example, you only see HD tuners talked about here - _not_ any 480i-only ones. Same thing goes for the Programming sub-forum - _only_ HD programming. Recorders, too (480i HDD/DVD recorder discussions go in the DVD Recorders forum).
> 
> 
> I was just cutting it off at the pass, in case it started veering towards other areas like the amount of channels and the programming on them. I just didn't want to see it turn into another "quantity vs. quality" argument, which really is frowned upon in the HDTV area. I mean, you can bring it up (in the case of HD, or SD subchannels as they _affect_ the OTA HD channels) - but at your own risk, because you'll be ganged up on big time by the HD purists here (which I'm one of - we tend to have bigger displays which show the problems more).



My post here was strictly on the Eagle Aspen twin bow-tie antenna. My CECB posting was much more extensive on that forum.


Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that the digital signals sent by broadcasters are DIFFERENT for HDTV and SDTV? Or are the SAME digital signals from the broadcaster, that are received by indoor antennas and displayed correctly by both HDTVs and digital set top boxes, the same?


If the latter is the case, then my experience using the Eagle Aspen twin bow-tie indoor antenna to receive digital signals is applicable to this forum. A digital signal, whether received by a HDTV or a Blackberry, or a CEBC is the same. An antenna tuned and turned properly will deliver the same digital signals. I own and use both HDTVs, SDTVs, cable and OTA boxes. I enjoy the experimentation discussed in these forums.


Digital is digital. The next digital device could be a thing hanging from your ear that enables you to talk on the cell phone in your jacket pocket. OOPS! That's SOOO Bluetooth!


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceprise* /forum/post/15130983
> 
> 
> Digital is digital.



Like I said, as far as reception issues, on this forum, yes. Your post is appropriate in this sub-forum as long as it stays on the technical aspects of reception.


And it has, so no problem. I don't know if you misunderstood, but I did say it was perfectly appropriate here. This is exactly where it belongs.


But as far as this forum and programming, HD and SD are kept completely separate. That's just the way it is here.


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scott_atm* /forum/post/15128893
> 
> 
> I am thinking about a DB2 mounted in the window (that i currently have the coax cable hanging in) as a more permanent solution. Based on my current success i imagine this will be overkill, but we won't be in an apartment for long and it shoudl be a good canidate for my house. Besides it seems tough to beat for less than 40 bucks. Is amazon the vendor of choice for this sort of thing?



If you are going to purchase your antenna through Amazon, you might as well save a little more money and get the Eagle-Aspen clone of the DB2: http://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Aspen-Dt.../dp/B000GIT002 


At the time we purchased our Eagle-Aspen, Amazon was not yet selling it, and we purchased from Buy.com for a little less than the Amazon price. However, Amazon's price for the antenna is close enough to the $25.00 minimum for free Super Saver Shipping that, still under your original $40 budget, you could throw in something like this : http://www.amazon.com/Nina-Simone-at...449535&sr=1-14 and get additional enjoyment. [grin]


----------



## ceprise

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_tuner 


I mean, you can bring it up (in the case of HD, or SD subchannels as they affect the OTA HD channels) - but at your own risk, because you'll be ganged up on big time by the HD purists here (which I'm one of - we tend to have bigger displays which show the problems more).


You did not say it was appropriate. You said:


you'll be ganged up on big time by the HD purists here (which I'm one of - we tend to have bigger displays which show the problems more).


SO SIZE of display is more important than method of reception.


I'm reporting on a 25 dollar twin bow-tie antenna. a 20 dollar wal-mart pole lamp and

an LG ATSC receiver, and SIZE!!! of your display!!! is more important???


LUV YA!

CEPRISE


----------



## Rammitinski

I was referring to programming, or "quality vs quantity" arguments, when I was talking about "bringing it up at your own risk".


This sticky thread, and certain others here, cover TV reception in general, just as you say, but as far as the rest of the sub-forum, it's called "HDTV Technical" for a reason, and the line is usually drawn where equipment like tuners and programming is concerned. I was just trying to point that out to Rick.


There's no problem - your initial post was entirely appropriate. I was just being paranoid, because we do get a lot of people drifting over here from the CECB forum raving about how they want more subchannels at any cost. And like I said, this really isn't the sub-forum for that.


So carry on.


----------



## scott_atm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kumo* /forum/post/15132614
> 
> 
> If you are going to purchase your antenna through Amazon, you might as well save a little more money and get the Eagle-Aspen clone of the DB2: http://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Aspen-Dt.../dp/B000GIT002



Thanks for the hint. I have amazon prime so i will forgoe the added entertainment  Any noticable difference in quality between the antenna's direct product and the Eagle Aspen?


----------



## BillZM

I've been thinking of picking up a DB2 myself. From the Amazon reviews, there are a number of people saying the plastic clip?/bracket? holding the balun to the antenna is brittle. Maybe not a big deal, particularly for indoor use. But I thought I'd spend the extra $10 for the Antenna Direct product.


----------



## Rick313

You might also consider the Channel Master 4220 or 4221. From what I've read, the Channel Master units have slightly longer whiskers which gives them better overall gain across the channel spectrum. For outdoor reception, the Channel Master 4228 has been and continues to be one of the most highly recommended antennas available, so they must be doing something right. I purchased an Antennas Direct DB4 several months ago, but if I had it to do over again, I'd go with Channel Master.


----------



## BillZM

The Winegard HD-1080 looks interesting too, a double bowtie design with long elements for VHF Hi.


----------



## Rick313

I've done a lot of digging during the past week or so and haven't been able to find much in the way of reviews for the Winegard HD-1080. Unfortunately, I think the lack of good reviews speaks for itself. That's too bad, because it seems like a great design.


----------



## ceprise




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/15163745
> 
> 
> I've done a lot of digging during the past week or so and haven't been able to find much in the way of reviews for the Winegard HD-1080. Unfortunately, I think the lack of good reviews speaks for itself. That's too bad, because it seems like a great design.



I am also interested in this antenna for use indoors. After Feb 2008, ABC6/Action News/Philly goes back to mid-VHF. The Winegard claims both high VHF and UHF reception. Low VHF is off to auction.


Most digital broadcasting is in UHF, now and after Feb 2009. There will be very few stations broadcasting digital in VHF. Even if the station's virtual number will remain "VHF-like", it is broadcasting in UHF. In the Philly area, CBS3-1, ABC6-1 and NBC10-1 are all actually broadcasting in UHF.


So it makes sense to optimize UHF reception.


Hey! I'm going to stay low tech/low cost until then. Over The Air (OTA) digital receivers will be needed for reception of ATSC digital signals. Digital signals sent by cable will need QAM receivers to decode. Even with QAM tuners, the broadcaster can scramble individual channels. The coupon eliegeble set-top boxes (CECB) will not able to receive digital cable signals because they are not QAM. If the CECB has an analog signal pass through like the LG/Insignia/Zenith, you should still be able to receive analog cable signals on your TV's analog tuner if you turn off the CECB. So if you have analog cable and want an OTA digital backup, use an A-B switch leading to your CECB with analog pass-through to switch between cable (with CECB OFF) and digital OTA signals (CECB ON). Why you might ask? Just wait till you see football, baseball or Desperate Housewives in digital format. It makes even a 15 year-old CRT TV look good.


My recommendations:

1. Stay low cost. No amplified antennas for a single receiver. Did I get burned by fancy HDTV antenna Ads? YES!!!


2. UHF digital signals are DIRECTIONAL; VHF signals are bi-polar (they are out there and scared!); they need a two pole indoor antenna to receive the signal. Hence, the classic BUNNY EARS.


3. I've had success receiving digital UHF signals indoors in a deep fringe area with an un-amplified twin bow-tie antenna similar to the HD-1080. I mounted it on a $20 pole lamp from W-M. Get the direction of the broadcast towers from TVFool.com or antennaweb.com. Aim the antenna toward the signals and do a channel scan.


4. In a city or built-up area, multi-path (signals bouncing off buildings, trees, etc) is a problem. In that case try aiming the antenna out a window and scan again.


5. An inexpensive (less than 10 bucks), non-amplified, classic VHF di-pole rabbit ears and UHF loop antenna, that combines both signals into a single co-ax cable connection may be all that you need for near tower reception.


6. For longer range reception, a twin bow-tie antenna for digital UHF and a di-pole antenna for digital VHF if it will still be in your area, using a combiner, (a splitter used backwards) may be the ticket. I've read on forums that it is not recommended to combine two UHF antennas aimed in different directions, due to interference. In that case an antenna rotor is recommended. In my case that means turning the pole lamp.


Since the HD-1080 claims both VHF and UHF reception, I'm interested in any experience with VHF signals, analog or digital from this antenna. That would make a much simpler and cleaner installation than my described set-up in 6 above.


BTW, my wife got to choose the pole lamp.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceprise* /forum/post/15176656
> 
> 
> Since the HD-1080 claims both VHF and UHF reception, I'm interested in any experience with VHF signals, analog or digital from this antenna.



There are a couple of positive comments on Amazon, but that's not much to go on. There are also a number of negative comments in the main antenna thread here at AVS Forum, so I tend to give them more credence especially since the comments were not challenged by anyone. One comment suggested that the VHF performance of this antenna would be less effective than rabbit ears, so that's not very encouraging.


----------



## holl_ands

Have you seen the gain specs for the (primarily UHF) W-G HD1080???
http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=HD-1080 
http://www.winegard.com/offair/vhfuhf.htm 

[Click on "HD1080" to see azimuthal gain patterns.]


For Ch11-13 it's about as ineffective as Rabbit Ears.

For Ch7-9 it's -11 to -8 dB LOSS....much worse than Rabbit Ears,

and it's also bidirectional, letting in multipath from the rear,

so make sure you have a strong enough signal:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## holl_ands

Also check out recent posts in Antenna thread re *ALTERNATIVE VHF ANTENNAS I thru III*:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15126467 

The third post has actual measurements of efforts to improve VHF performance

of CM4221 (with screen reflector) and a supersized W-G PR4400 (with stick reflectors).


Significant improvement in VHF performance was achieved by extending the size

of the screen reflector....or by using longer stick reflectors tuned for VHF band.


Someone might want to try some trial and error experiments with a 2-Bay indoor antenna....


----------



## ceprise




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15177702
> 
> 
> Have you seen the gain specs for the (primarily UHF) W-G HD1080???
> http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=HD-1080
> http://www.winegard.com/offair/vhfuhf.htm
> 
> [Click on "HD1080" to see azimuthal gain patterns.]
> 
> 
> For Ch11-13 it's about as ineffective as Rabbit Ears.
> 
> For Ch7-9 it's -11 to -8 dB LOSS....much worse than Rabbit Ears,
> 
> and it's also bidirectional, letting in multipath from the rear,
> 
> so make sure you have a strong enough signal:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



Thanks, great info! My next experiment in up state PA is to try a four bow-tie indoor antenna to receive LOS signals from about 80 miles. The db gain of the 4 vs. the 2 bow-tie makes me feel more confident.


As for the low to mid VHF indoor antenna for Philly suburban reception, I'll stay with the BUNNY EARS for now.


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scott_atm* /forum/post/15149948
> 
> 
> Thanks for the hint. I have amazon prime so i will forgoe the added entertainment  Any noticable difference in quality between the antenna's direct product and the Eagle Aspen?



I have not used the AntennasDirect DB2, only the Eagle Aspen product, so I have no basis for comparison of actual performance. From measurements, it appears that the Eagle Aspen elements may be millimeters longer than the DB2's, so there might be (but probably is not) a very slight advantage for the Eagle Aspen at the lower frequency end of the UHF range.


FWIW, I had none of the problems with the balun transformer connector clip reported by some of the Amazon reviews; I also would not call the screen the "front" and the bow-tie elements the "back" of the antenna as one of the reviewers at Amazon did.


----------



## ceprise




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kumo* /forum/post/15184077
> 
> 
> I have not used the AntennasDirect DB2, only the Eagle Aspen product, so I have no basis for comparison of actual performance. From measurements, it appears that the Eagle Aspen elements may be millimeters longer than the DB2's, so there might be (but probably is not) a very slight advantage for the Eagle Aspen at the lower frequency end of the UHF range.
> 
> 
> FWIW, I had none of the problems with the balun transformer connector clip reported by some of the Amazon reviews; I also would not call the screen the "front" and the bow-tie elements the "back" of the antenna as one of the reviewers at Amazon did.



The whiskers go in front. The reflecter (bed springs) goes in back. My balun clip broke when I glanced at it. Use a nylon wire-tie!


God Bless duct tape, wire-ties and WD-40!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ive identified a Radio Shack antenna, simple Rabbit Ears and Loop, unamplified with a larger 7 inch loop, that I might pick up to try out.


I need to work on the front page some more too......some day!


----------



## chasepgt

Hi fellas, So I've been working through a few antenna, cecb, and hdtv stb combos and am having some MISERABLE luck...


I have the LG 3510a HDTV tuner and DVD Player combo, the APEX 501 cecb, and have now been through 5 antennas all with poor results including (best to worst):


1. RS Basic Dipole with uhf loop (best so far, but i bought it first and took it

back assuming it was no good, when in fact it was the best!)

2. RS 1892 UFO (now onsale by the way)

3. RCA basic loop and dipole

4. Philips loop model something or other 020 (awful!)

5. homemade loop of wire (did jack squat!)


First the situation: I live a front facing (North) second floor condo of a 5 story midrise all brick 1920's apartment building in the western half of Boston (Fenway area, if you're familiar). I cannot setup an antenna on the roof as I have no access to the building and dont' want to run wire loosely down from the roof to my window. (If I did, i'd consider a FTA Satellite setup!). Compounding the problem is that the majority of the towers I need to pull from are South-Southwest, in direct path of the building, thus blocking all signal.


The Closest towers are 2.9 miles away from the northwest (clear path). These channels BARELY Come in. Two towers in the SSW (completely blocked by the brick building) about 5.9 miles away come in very strongly. In the same direction as these 2, tehre is a third tower about 7 miles away that I can only sometimes pull in if I redirect the loop antenna VERY carefully. If I walk around in the room, i loose all reception to all channels except the CW (SSW, blocked). Needless to say, None of this is convenient, nor does it make sense to me!


Bottom line with the CECB and Loop, I can adjsut the antenna to pull in 11 of the 25+ local channels within a ~25 mile range to at least some level. With the HDTV Tuner, I can pull in 3 channels and display in 720p but not well enough to actually watch (except the CW).


I want to upgrade the antenna, and am picking up a second hopefully stronger tuner CECB tonight as I have another coupon(zenith/insignia model as recommended on this forum).


For an antenna: I'm thinking of Going with the DB2, but would like to pair this with the directional Philips PHDTV3 or the winegard ss-3000. I think the DB2 would effectively pick up the 11+ channels i currently am picking up (and probably more), and then I can use the Phillips or winegaurd to focus on the long range directional towers that are 20+ miles out. Can I accomplish this (using two antennas) by using a uhf/vhf combiner?


Another POSSIBLE but not PROBABLE option would be to hang the DB2 or even the DB4 out side the front window. My question is this: Is it worth it to even try? Signal from most towers will still be blocked by the path of the building.


Another idea is to use the DB4 as an INDOOR antenna. I have a leaning bookshelf that it could probably fit behind. My question though for the db2 and db4, is it ok for the mesh part to be used to mount the antenna to the plaster wall, or rest the antenna on the bookshelf (wood)? or must these be mounted by a bracket?


Third.... As it sounds like my probable reception issue is Multicasting, so should forego looking into an amplifier, an amplified antenna, or preamp?


Bottom line is I'm hoping to start using the 5 year old HDTV tuner with a better antenna for all my tv watching for the HD Benefits. problem is the reception capabilities are simply attrocious at the moment (1 channel on the HD LG unit vs 11 or 12 with the cecb). I'm hoping a better antenna setup will allow me to ditch the CECB for the HD stb!


Help please!? Advice?










DB2 alone? or DB4 alone?


DB2 with SS-3000, or DB2 with Phillips PHDTV3


OR DB4 with SS-3000, or DB4 with PHDTV3


And regardless of combination... should i bother putting the db* outside, or just leave it inside?


Sorry for the long post, just watned to be sure I'm including everything I can think of.


----------



## pestocat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chasepgt* /forum/post/15257230
> 
> 
> Hi fellas, So I've been working through a few antenna, cecb, and hdtv stb combos and am having some MISERABLE luck...
> 
> 
> I have the LG 3510a HDTV tuner and DVD Player combo, the APEX 501 cecb, and have now been through 5 antennas all with poor results including (best to worst):
> 
> 
> 1. RS Basic Dipole with uhf loop (best so far, but i bought it first and took it
> 
> back assuming it was no good, when in fact it was the best!)
> 
> 2. RS 1892 UFO (now onsale by the way)
> 
> 3. RCA basic loop and dipole
> 
> 4. Philips loop model something or other 020 (awful!)
> 
> 5. homemade loop of wire (did jack squat!)
> 
> 
> First the situation: I live a front facing (North) second floor condo of a 5 story midrise all brick 1920's apartment building in the western half of Boston (Fenway area, if you're familiar). I cannot setup an antenna on the roof as I have no access to the building and dont' want to run wire loosely down from the roof to my window. (If I did, i'd consider a FTA Satellite setup!). Compounding the problem is that the majority of the towers I need to pull from are South-Southwest, in direct path of the building, thus blocking all signal.
> 
> 
> The Closest towers are 2.9 miles away from the northwest (clear path). These channels BARELY Come in. Two towers in the SSW (completely blocked by the brick building) about 5.9 miles away come in very strongly. In the same direction as these 2, tehre is a third tower about 7 miles away that I can only sometimes pull in if I redirect the loop antenna VERY carefully. If I walk around in the room, i loose all reception to all channels except the CW (SSW, blocked). Needless to say, None of this is convenient, nor does it make sense to me!
> 
> 
> Bottom line with the CECB and Loop, I can adjsut the antenna to pull in 11 of the 25+ local channels within a ~25 mile range to at least some level. With the HDTV Tuner, I can pull in 3 channels and display in 720p but not well enough to actually watch (except the CW).
> 
> 
> I want to upgrade the antenna, and am picking up a second hopefully stronger tuner CECB tonight as I have another coupon(zenith/insignia model as recommended on this forum).
> 
> 
> For an antenna: I'm thinking of Going with the DB2, but would like to pair this with the directional Philips PHDTV3 or the winegard ss-3000. I think the DB2 would effectively pick up the 11+ channels i currently am picking up (and probably more), and then I can use the Phillips or winegaurd to focus on the long range directional towers that are 20+ miles out. Can I accomplish this (using two antennas) by using a uhf/vhf combiner?
> 
> 
> Another POSSIBLE but not PROBABLE option would be to hang the DB2 or even the DB4 out side the front window. My question is this: Is it worth it to even try? Signal from most towers will still be blocked by the path of the building.
> 
> 
> Another idea is to use the DB4 as an INDOOR antenna. I have a leaning bookshelf that it could probably fit behind. My question though for the db2 and db4, is it ok for the mesh part to be used to mount the antenna to the plaster wall, or rest the antenna on the bookshelf (wood)? or must these be mounted by a bracket?
> 
> 
> Third.... As it sounds like my probable reception issue is Multicasting, so should forego looking into an amplifier, an amplified antenna, or preamp?
> 
> 
> Bottom line is I'm hoping to start using the 5 year old HDTV tuner with a better antenna for all my tv watching for the HD Benefits. problem is the reception capabilities are simply attrocious at the moment (1 channel on the HD LG unit vs 11 or 12 with the cecb). I'm hoping a better antenna setup will allow me to ditch the CECB for the HD stb!
> 
> 
> Help please!? Advice?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DB2 alone? or DB4 alone?
> 
> 
> DB2 with SS-3000, or DB2 with Phillips PHDTV3
> 
> 
> OR DB4 with SS-3000, or DB4 with PHDTV3
> 
> 
> And regardless of combination... should i bother putting the db* outside, or just leave it inside?
> 
> 
> Sorry for the long post, just watned to be sure I'm including everything I can think of.



Going with the Zenith CECB is a good move. I suggest going with a Channel Master 3010A antenna. This is an amplified antenna and is normally used outside. However it is not that large and you could point this out your window. Maximum width is a little over 3 feet. You can attach the antenna to a 5 foot mast and attach the mast to an antenna tripod or as someone has suggested get a 5 gallon plastic container and fill the bucket with a concrete mix.


----------



## chasepgt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pestocat* /forum/post/15257672
> 
> 
> Going with the Zenith CECB is a good move. I suggest going with a Channel Master 3010A antenna. This is an amplified antenna and is normally used outside. However it is not that large and you could point this out your window. Maximum width is a little over 3 feet. You can attach the antenna to a 5 foot mast and attach the mast to an antenna tripod or as someone has suggested get a 5 gallon plastic container and fill the bucket with a concrete mix.



Got the Zenith hooked up tonight and VERY pleased. Pulled in 18 channels with the good 'ole RCA loop antenna and all of which are VERY strong. This more than DOUBLED my viewable channels received on the APEX CECB.


That aside, I'd still like to move forward on the antenna upgrade as well. I'll add the CM 3010a to the list, but "pointing" an antenna out the window won't help as the signals are coming from the opposite direction, and thus through 8 solid brick walls and a neighborhood of mid-rise buildings







I'd appreciate any feed back on overcoming that situation as I described in my earlier post-


Thanks!


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chasepgt* /forum/post/15257230
> 
> 
> Help please!? Advice?



Hey Chase! Sounds like you've got a really tough situation for reception. From what I've heard brick walls are a big signal killer, but the fact that you're at least getting some reception now is encouraging. I've got a similar situation, an apartment facing away from the towers but without the brick walls. I've tried a variety of antennas and I've had the best luck with the classic Channel Master 4149 which is perhaps one of the best indoor antennas ever made.


I've done several head to head comparisons with other antennas including the Winegard SS-3000 and Terrestrial Digital DB4 as well as a few loop antennas, and nothing has performed as consistently well as the 4149. I would strongly encourage you to give it a try.


----------



## chasepgt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/15259293
> 
> 
> 
> I've done several head to head comparisons with other antennas including the Winegard SS-3000 and Terrestrial Digital DB4 as well as a few loop antennas, and nothing has performed as consistently well as the 4149. I would strongly encourage you to give it a try.



Rick, thanks- this is exactly the info i'm looking for. Just to be clear, you mean to say in your experience the 2-bay 4149 gave you better results than the 4 bay db4? Or did you mean to reference the DB2?


----------



## sailingz

Hi all, newbie here. I just purchased a panasonic plasma TV and it's on the way. I'm searching for an indoor antenna with good reception. Any suggestions? Thanks.


----------



## emt90

Hello all


I have been usind a Radioshack 1892 UFO now for a couple months and liked it so much, I bought a second one for my back bedroom. Well I was in that room the other day the UFO started rotating by itself. After checking into it I found someone was using the remote on the other UFO two rooms away and it was rotating both antennas. I was actually suprised to see that because the remotes dont seem that good. In fact, sometimes I need to hit the button twice to get it to rotate when I am 6 feet away, but it works great from the other room. go figure!!! well I tried to desensitize the reciever by shielding one unit with foil, but then it didn't work at all unless you are right on top of it.

Any ideas on how to shield them from one another?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/15259293
> 
> 
> Hey Chase! Sounds like you've got a really tough situation for reception. From what I've heard brick walls are a big signal killer, but the fact that you're at least getting some reception now is encouraging. I've got a similar situation, an apartment facing away from the towers but without the brick walls. I've tried a variety of antennas and I've had the best luck with the classic Channel Master 4149 which is perhaps one of the best indoor antennas ever made.
> 
> 
> I've done several head to head comparisons with other antennas including the Winegard SS-3000 and Terrestrial Digital DB4 as well as a few loop antennas, and nothing has performed as consistently well as the 4149. I would strongly encourage you to give it a try.



But it's UHF-ONLY!!!!


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chasepgt* /forum/post/15262033
> 
> 
> Just to be clear, you mean to say in your experience the 2-bay 4149 gave you better results than the 4 bay db4?



That's correct. I can only assume that it has something to do with the fact that the bows on the 4149 have more surface area. It's also cheaper, takes up less space, and comes with a stand. Nice!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15264164
> 
> 
> But it's UHF-ONLY!!!!



True, but it seems to do reasonably well on VHF-HI too. One could always combine it with a cheap set of rabbit ears or dipole antenna to get better VHF reception if necessary.


----------



## chasepgt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/15267524
> 
> 
> That's correct. I can only assume that it has something to do with the fact that the bows on the 4149 have more surface area. It's also cheaper, takes up less space, and comes with a stand. Nice!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but it seems to do reasonably well on VHF-HI too. One could always combine it with a cheap set of rabbit ears or dipole antenna to get better VHF reception if necessary.



I went ahead and ordered the 4149 today- ~22$ shipped, for that price even if it doesn't work out, I can still get some value out of it as a towel rack or something










I believe I've only got 1 (maybe zero) post DTV conversion VHF channel to worry about so I can live without the bunny hopefully, and just stick with the 4149.


I'll report back with my results with the new antenna once it arrives.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chasepgt* /forum/post/15273694
> 
> 
> I went ahead and ordered the 4149 today...I'll report back with my results with the new antenna once it arrives.



Awesome! I think you'll be happy with it. It won't work miracles, but if there's a signal there, it should bring it in.


----------



## fred2ka4

This has been a very informative and helpful thread and I appreciate all the work involved. Has any testing been done on the Toptronics DA-001? It's another antenna that looks to be good but I just want to see where it would fall in comparison to the other antennas already tested.



For my needs, I am currently looking at the RS DA-5200 or the Clearstream 2













Here are some specifications I found:


* VHF & UHF signals

* 12 x 8 x 13 (W x D x H)

* Work Frequency Range:55~862 MHz

* Voltage: AC 120V 60Hz / DC 5V

* Power Consumption: 2.5W

* Amplifier: Match for The Best Reception

* Working Environment Temperature: 10°F ~ 113°F

* RF: Imperial RF Output Port

* Channels 2-69


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chasepgt* /forum/post/15273694
> 
> 
> I went ahead and ordered the 4149 today- ~22$ shipped, for that price even if it doesn't work out, I can still get some value out of it as a towel rack or something
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I've only got 1 (maybe zero) post DTV conversion VHF channel to worry about so I can live without the bunny hopefully, and just stick with the 4149.
> 
> 
> I'll report back with my results with the new antenna once it arrives.



I'm surprised you haven't tried the highly rated Silver Sensor,

or the Terk Klone which adds VHF Rabbit Ears:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV1...p_ob_e_title_0 
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technolog...9394608&sr=1-1 


You can compare antenna patterns by clicking on antenna names:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

The CM4149 is the Double Bow.


You are going to find it difficult to receive ALL signals without moving the antenna,

since they are coming from all sorts of directions.


You also should be aware that you may have a stronger REFLECTED signal

that might need to have an antenna null directed to reduce multipath coming

from the "direct" path signal trying to go through your building.


Basic Cable (under $15/mo) is another option, and includes Clear QAM local HD channels.


----------



## ceprise

This is the follow-up to my post #1096. In that post I reported on using an Eagle Aspen twin bow-tie antenna, mounted indoor on a pole lamp, to receive clear digital channels from Wilkes-Barre PA area at 73.6 miles. All are UHF. The receiver is an LG/Insignia/Zenith CECB.


I next tried an AntennaCraft U4000 four bow-tie unit, again mounted indoor on another pole lamp. The U4000 is very light weight, and is easily supported by the lamp. The difference between the two bow tie Eagle Aspen and the four bow-tie AntennaCraft is the reflector. On the Eagle Aspen the reflector (bed springs) looks to be painted carbon steel. The AntennaCraft reflector is aluminum bars. I estimate that the AntennaCraft weighs about the same as the Eagle Aspen.


Aiming the AntennaCraft out the same living room window facing the direction of the broadcasters, I received the same 11 digital signals at good strength. Later at night (11 PM) I picked up 4 more digital channels from one broadcaster.


I moved the Eagle Aspen setup and CECB with the channels memorized to the kitchen at the rear of the house. The kitchen has a garage between it and the broadcast direction, and a window at 90 degrees. I picked up 10 of the 11 channels. The lost channel would be partially received and pixelate. Experimenting, I covered the Eagle Aspen reflector with aluminum foil, aluminum side toward the whiskers. The lost channel returned with good signal strength.


Summary: Eagle Aspen cost $25 including shipping + pole lamp $20 = $45.

AntennaCraft cost $40 including shipping + pole lamp $10 = $50.


This is an acceptable solution for a house we visit every 6 weeks or so where previous analog reception was non-existent.


----------



## dtloken

Ok, I have my DB4 and Motorola BDA S-1 amp now. In a very suboptimal basement setting I am easily pulling in most Milwaukee stations (Other than WTMJ 4) as well as WGN off the back side of the antenna. I am getting around a 40% signal on WLS and channel 32 from Chicago which are all about 60 miles away.


I am going to pick up a DTT901 later this week to see what I can pull in with good ATSC tuner given that the one in my Sony KDL32S2010 probably isn't the best tuner out there.


Right now the antenna is mounted on a floor lamp which puts the lowest bow tie element about 4.5 feet from the floor and 10 feet below the ground. I am imaging that I'll be able to pull in a ton of channels with the antenna in a good location with a 5th gen or better tuner. Granted this antenna is a bit large for indoor usage but in my location (30 miles South of Milwaukee's transmitters and 55-60 miles North of Chicago's transmitters) it seems to be a good choice..


----------



## circumstances

hey guys. i currently have a GE home depot special on my roof that isn't really doing the job for me. i did the help-select-an-antenna thing on solidsignal.com, and they replied that they think i should use the clearstream2.


after reading through this thread (and the clearstream2 review links you posted), i'm not so sure that's the way i want to go.


i am really only interested in getting WSVN, WTVJ, WPLG and WFOR over the air (getting other channels would be nice, but i'm more concerned with FOX, ABC, NBC and CBS).


here is the tvfool chart for my location. single story house, antenna mounted on the roof. only interested in the stations to the south of me.


thanks for any help you can offer!


----------



## dtloken

Ok, update. Brought the DB4 + Motorola BDA S-1 amp to a friends house. It is laying on the floor leaned against the wall in the general direction of Chicago. From this address we are at least 60 miles from the transmitters in Chicago. It is hooked into a Magnavox converter box.


With the DB4 I am pulling in the following channels:


4 (NBC, Milwaukee)

5 (NBC, Chicago)

6 (FOX, Milwaukee)

7 (ABC, Chicago, Apparently it is going back to real channel 7 post transition which means I'll probably lose it.)

9 (WGN, Chicago)

10 (PBS 10, Milwaukee. Primary HD feed. With fine tuning the position I am able to receive this. It is a VHF channel from 30-35 miles away so this is spectacular)

11 (PBS, WTTW Chicago)

12 (ABC, Milwaukee)

18 (WB, Milwaukee)

20 (PBS, Chicago)

24 (IND, Milwaukee)

26 (METV, Mynetworktv, etc. several subchannels. I am not sure if this is a Milwaukee or Chicago station since I've never had it before)

30 (Some religious channel, dunno where from)

32 (FOX, Chicago)

36 (PBS, 8 SD subchannels, Milwaukee)

38 (ION, not sure of location)

44 (Telemundo, not sure of location)

50 (MyNetwork TV, registered out of Gary, IN but I think the transmitter is somewhere in Chicago)

55 (ION, again, not sure of the location)

58 (CBS, Milwaukee also has a subchannel of WMLW from Milwaukee which is a low power digital station and a second subchannel of ThisTV which is some sort of movie channel)

60 (Unreliable, tuner still sees it. I believe it is some sort of Spanish language channel)

66 (Telemundo, not sure where it is from)


This is without any fine tuning of antenna location or moving the antenna for specific channels (Other than channel 10 which is VHF). Honestly I am amazed at what I am able to receive. The only major channel I can't receive is channel 2 from Chicago which is CBS and will be broadcasting on real channel 12 after the transition so it should probably be receivable then.


Milwaukee is 35 or so miles North of this location, Chicago is 60 miles South in terms of distance from the transmitters. These are all being received indoors at the same time without moving the antenna around. This reception just seems utterly incredible and beyond anything I ever expected. Between the 4 PBS stations there are probably 15 subchannels of their content here. I'll have to count how many subchannels/channels I receive total.


----------



## seatacboy

Close family members who rely on OTA have complained about frequent video/audio signal loss as well as pixellation from aircraft. They reside in a very strong-signal location with a direct line-of-sight to transmitters 8 miles away.


Out of whimsy, I brought over a Philips PHDTV1 Silver Sensor for evaluation at their condominium overlooking a golf course. They had been using a variety of indoor aerials and settled on a Channel Master 4221 placed indoors. Since installing the Silver Sensor at their home, they've reported that 99% of the lost signal, pixellation and macrblocking problems associated with nearby aircraft have disappeared.


EV's performance hierarchy is correct for the vast majority of suburban or exurban locations. However, if you are in an in-city location facing serious signal-loss problems created by a nearby flight path, the Silver Sensor could be the best solution answer. The Silver Sensor almost seems to be tailor-made for urban dwellers whose DTV reception has been plagued by aviation interference.


----------



## holl_ands

Must be cuz it LOOKS like an airplane....or cuz it can steer nulls...


----------



## Grayson73

I'm ready to purchase an Antenna for Potomac, MD and Richmond, VA.


According to the charts, the best antenna for on top of the TV is the RS 1892 UFO, followed by Terk HDTVa, Terk HDTVi, Philips MANT940 and Channel Master 4149.


Can anyone let me know which would be the best for my situations? I've attached tvfool plots for each location.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Merry Christmas everybody!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

 The Radio Shack Budget TV Antenna 

Model: T#749

Catalog #: 15-1874


Further refered to as the 1874, is the best of the non amplified rabbit ears and loop antennas, that Ive checked out and tested so far. It has a 7.5 inch diameter loop which shifts the gain curve down into the newly shifted television UHF spectrum ch. 14 to ch. 51 or so...instead of the old ch.14 to ch69 (and even older ch.14 to ch83 spectrum - hat tip seatacboy) spectrum for UHF television signals.


It beats out the RCA ANT108 (ANT110) which was my favorite before. Althought the RS Delta 1868 has fine tuning impedence matching knob which can help it best non fine tuning unamped RE & Loops with tweaking from station to station....I prefer the simplicity of the RCA ANT108 and RS 1874 to it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hello Grayson73,


You have some primary stations in each town, and then a secondary market in each location as well that is reachable. It depends on what you are trying to capture. In either place a RS 1874 should be good for the local market at 8 miles to the towers.


If you are trying to get the secondary market stations as well, then it becomes a challenge.


Merry Christmas!


----------



## Grayson73

Hi EV,


So you don't recommend the RS 1892 UFO, Terk HDTVa, Terk HDTVi, Philips MANT940 or Channel Master 4149?


I'm currently using an RCA antenna in Richmond and can pick up all the stations, but have trouble with 65.1, 21.6 miles away. Will the RS 1864 improve things? A little confused as your previous mention talks about the 1874, but you mention 1864 in the paragrah.


8.1 also gives me trouble on the CM-7000, but is fine with the Zenith DTT901.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah, I meant 1874, post corrected.


Is your current antenna amplified? Do you have aluminum siding, brick or stucco walls?


I would stay away from amplified antennas, because you have such strong signals....and that may be your problem with 8.1.


The Terk HDTVi or the Philips Silver Sensor PHDTV1 would probably work for you, but you might have to fidget with it when you switch to The CW 65.1 as its in a different direction....and might be in one of the nulls....however you might be able to aim it between somwhere and pull everything in without fussing with it, as you have very strong signals from the main tower cluster which is very close.


The Channel Master 4149's gain curve drops precipitously at the lower end of UHF and you have a couple of high VHF Hi channels to capture as well. So that isnt a good solution.


The DB2 may be your best bet....or the cheaper Eagle Aspen available at Buy.com or Amazon for $15. Its gain curve remains strong into the lower UHF band and gives you some gain on the upper VHF Hi band. It also has a wider beamwidth than the Silver Sensor. You can probably get (at least have a good shot at getting) the 298 degree cluster with the DB2 though you might have to turn the DB2 in order to get it. But it looks like it will work in one position without fussing for everthing down to 65.1....just set and forget.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

You might just need to move your current antenna to a better location Grayson, but the Silver Sensor and DB2 are the best unamplified antennas for your situation.


----------



## long beach girl

Hello

I am trying to learn about antennas. I am confused. I had a digital tv and bought a terk-5 antenna. I worked fine. I picked up many digital stations including 7.1-7.3. I now have a flat screen Samsung 750 LCD HDTV. I tried using the same antenna but cannot get several of the stations I had before.


Is it the television receptor? Is it the stations during the transition? ( I doubt it because the old tv was fine just before) Do different televisions need different antennas? I am considering the Terk HDTV but will it make a difference?


According to AntennaWeb I need a medium multi directional antenna. What do you recommend? Please advise I am so confused.

thank you


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Probably the quality of the tuner inside the 2 different TVs that is making the difference.


Post your TVfool.com info, so you can get informed suggestions.


----------



## Grayson73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15381403
> 
> 
> Yeah, I meant 1874, post corrected.
> 
> 
> Is your current antenna amplified? Do you have aluminum siding, brick or stucco walls?
> 
> 
> I would stay away from amplified antennas, because you have such strong signals....and that may be your problem with 8.1.
> 
> 
> The Terk HDTVi or the Philips Silver Sensor PHDTV1 would probably work for you, but you might have to fidget with it when you switch to The CW 65.1 as its in a different direction....and might be in one of the nulls....however you might be able to aim it between somwhere and pull everything in without fussing with it, as you have very strong signals from the main tower cluster which is very close.
> 
> 
> The Channel Master 4149's gain curve drops precipitously at the lower end of UHF and you have a couple of high VHF Hi channels to capture as well. So that isnt a good solution.
> 
> 
> The DB2 may be your best bet....or the cheaper Eagle Aspen available at Buy.com or Amazon for $15. Its gain curve remains strong into the lower UHF band and gives you some gain on the upper VHF Hi band. It also has a wider beamwidth than the Silver Sensor. You can probably get (at least have a good shot at getting) the 298 degree cluster with the DB2 though you might have to turn the DB2 in order to get it. But it looks like it will work in one position without fussing for everthing down to 65.1....just set and forget.



Hi EV,


Thanks for the responses.


The house is entirely brick. The TV is by the window and the antenna on top of the TV or between the blinds and the window (trying both methods). Do the metal blinds touching the rabbit ears make any difference?


I'm using an unamplified antenna that has a rotary knob with 12 positions (not sure what this does) as well as a plate that you can adjust left and right.


In the DTT901 signal bar, 8.1 is showing in the middle to low, so I get pixelation and audio dropouts.


65.1 is showing very low, so no picture nor audio most of the time.


I was thinking that an amplified antenna would boost both of these signals.


DB2 is a no go due to it being an eyesore indoor.


With this new information, is your recommendation still the Terk HDTVi or the Philips Silver Sensor PHDTV1?


----------



## deltaguy

I connected the dipoles to the signal combiner at the start of the month and have found a modest gain in uhf performance. I'm still in the learning curve of just how the dipoles will be of best use. I'll likely mount them off of the tv eventually. Last night was the worst of the year for my Silver Sensor due to wind, also likely to leafless trees affecting the way signal washes ashore here. If this wind occurs after the transition, I'm betting I'll have solid VHF-HI reception with the 3-piece. It's a good set up for people using converter boxes who want reception on the cheap, already own rabbit ears.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Brick is a pretty good(meaning bad) radio wave dampening material. And metal blinds act as a reflector(very bad).


The Zenith is a very good tuner.


Get new blinds or raise them and see if that helps.


Alternatively, I would try these antennas.


RS 1874

Philips Silver Sensor or the Terk HDTVi(which has vhf dipoles as well)

DB2


You have very strong signals coming from xmitters just 6 miles away. Amping them may cause overload in the Zenith. So you are stuck with trying to pluck signals out of the air with the best elements you can find.


If you want to try an amplified model, Id try the Petra 32db/Cornet 645A.


The 1892 is a possibility as well, but it can be a bit quirky, not set and forget....but is a dream in the right situation.


I would replace the blinds, work on better placement. (I was just at a friends house, and on analog he was getting absolutely nothing with his rabbit ears and loop.....moved the antenna 3 feet to the side and was getting pretty good signal.


Perhaps go to Radio Shack and pick up the 1892 and the 1874 to start experimenting with. They have a good return policy if neither works out to your satisfaction....but you will be able to learn alot from trying them out.


----------



## squeeg

Hello,


I live on the second floor of an apartment building in Jersey City, NJ.


Below is my tvfool.com data. I'd appreciate your recommendations very much. Thanks in advance.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15379998
> 
> The Radio Shack Budget TV Antenna
> 
> Model: T#749
> 
> Catalog #: 15-1874
> 
> 
> Further refered to as the 1874, is the best of the non amplified rabbit ears and loop antennas, that Ive checked out and tested so far. It has a 7.5 inch diameter loop which shifts the gain curve down into the newly shifted television UHF spectrum ch. 14 to ch. 51 or so...instead of the old ch.14 to ch69 spectrum for UHF television signals.
> 
> 
> It beats out the RCA ANT108 (ANT110) which was my favorite before. Althought the RS Delta 1868 has fine tuning impedence matching knob which can help it best non fine tuning unamped RE & Loops with tweaking from station to station....I prefer the simplicity of the RCA ANT108 and RS 1874 to it.



EV, I'm impressed. Are you saying the RS 1874 (T-749) beats out the RS1868 Delta as well as the RCA ANT108/110? The larger diameter loop could be a key.


P.S. I've evaluated an RS 1878 powered antenna and it was not quite as good as a Philips MANT510. The results I've had at my suburban (with the antennas I've tried) are very similar to your test results. Have you tried using aluminum foil on the RS 1874 (T-749)?


FYI some really old UHF loops were set up for the old ch. 14 to ch. 83 spectrum. Ch. 70 to 83 were removed from TV broadcasting in the mid-1980s.


----------



## Grayson73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15390417
> 
> 
> Brick is a pretty good(meaning bad) radio wave dampening material. And metal blinds act as a reflector(very bad).
> 
> 
> The Zenith is a very good tuner.
> 
> 
> Get new blinds or raise them and see if that helps.
> 
> 
> Alternatively, I would try these antennas.
> 
> 
> RS 1874
> 
> Philips Silver Sensor or the Terk HDTVi(which has vhf dipoles as well)
> 
> DB2
> 
> 
> You have very strong signals coming from xmitters just 6 miles away. Amping them may cause overload in the Zenith. So you are stuck with trying to pluck signals out of the air with the best elements you can find.
> 
> 
> If you want to try an amplified model, Id try the Petra 32db/Cornet 645A.
> 
> 
> The 1892 is a possibility as well, but it can be a bit quirky, not set and forget....but is a dream in the right situation.
> 
> 
> I would replace the blinds, work on better placement. (I was just at a friends house, and on analog he was getting absolutely nothing with his rabbit ears and loop.....moved the antenna 3 feet to the side and was getting pretty good signal.
> 
> 
> Perhaps go to Radio Shack and pick up the 1892 and the 1874 to start experimenting with. They have a good return policy if neither works out to your satisfaction....but you will be able to learn alot from trying them out.



Thanks! I tried the 1892, 1874, as well as RCA ANT111 and RCA AND1251.


All of them picked up channel 8-1 well enough.


For 65-1, the ANT111 and ANT1251 had trouble. The amplification didn't help at all. Both the 1874 and 1892 were able to pick it up relatively well, with the 1892 being slightly better. I need to figure out whether I want to pay $50 vs. $12 for the slightly better reception.


I will try the HDTVi/PHDTV1 if I can find it locally.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Grayson73* /forum/post/15414006
> 
> 
> I need to figure out whether I want to pay $50 vs. $12 for the slightly better reception.
> 
> 
> I will try the HDTVi/PHDTV1 if I can find it locally.



Shoot - if you're reluctant to pay $50.00 for that 15-1892, wait'll you try to buy the HDTVi locally!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The 1892 might be working very well for pointing at 65.1 (real channel 47) and then just leaving it in that direction. It will probably pick up the rest off the side well enough for rock solid reception, so you can set it in one position and forget it(and if you are feeling frisky you can try for the channels in Red at 298 degrees now and then.


Another option is to go for the Petra SuperPower 32db at Buy.com for very cheap. $7 plus shipping ($15 total). Its got a larger diameter loop and a thicker diameter loop as well....both being improvements for reception of UHF TV over the 1874. It also has VHF dipoles for the upper VHF channels you have and an integrated amplifier. Very nice unit....a Best Buy.


Ive been contemplating working on the front page, doing some Best Buy and Products of Special Merit type labels.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Are you saying the RS 1874 (T-749) beats out the RS1868 Delta as well as the RCA ANT108/110?



Yes.


The RS1868 Delta can beat out the RCA ANT108 with use of the impedence matching knob....but this is much more useful with analog....with digital its of marginal value.


----------



## fred2ka4

Just purchased two antennas off of ebay.


1) Radio Shack DA-5200 (new)


2) Radio Shack 15-1880 (new)


The 15-1880 was new in the box for $20 shipped so I could not pass it up and the DA-5200 was also new for $40 shipped. I just want to see which one works better for my application but I would not have even come to these conclusions if it were not for the testing done here.


I'm still waiting to see if any good reviews come of the Toptronics DA-001


Thanks Again.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Fantastic price on the 1880, good score.


----------



## fred2ka4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15426251
> 
> 
> Fantastic price on the 1880, good score.



Thanks. I was actually watching an RS 15-1862 and another 15-1880 which are still available when I came across the 15-1880 for $20 buy it now shipped and new in the box (left over inventory).


I am also looking at a Clearstream2 but I will wait on that until I see the results of these antennas first and I am still trying to find some test results on the Toptronics DA-001, but nothing yet.


----------



## racinmd

For all of you using pole lamps for your antenna mounts consider one of these. Good excuse to throw a festivus party year round.
http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm 

mdr


----------



## bmarchand

I just bought a Clearstream C4 for $61 plus shipping and it is the best antanna I have tried. I had previously used a Silver Sensor, Terk HDTVa, Channel Master 4221, Channel Master 4228 and AntennaCraft Y10-7-13. The silver sensor and Terk HDTVa worked but they are so directional they were too touchy and so could be a pain having to constantly adjust them plus they do not have as much gain as the outdoor antennas for dxing. Since I live in a first floor apartment duplex I can not put antennas outside so I put them behind the tv. I have combined the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 with the C4 using a Diplexer to get real channel 9 65 miles away that would never come in on the UHF antennas.


I live in Chatham, IL 5 miles south of Springfield, IL. The Clearstream C4, CM 4221 and CM 4228 all pick up most stations at 100 percent but the C4 wins on the weakest station. The channels listed are the real digital channels.


WILL 9 PBS about 65 miles away. I could only pick it up with the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 in a spare bedroom and then it still only comes in half the time. No UHF antenna will pick it up. I wanted WILL 9 because it is the only PBS station on 24 hours a day I can receive.


WSEC 15 PBS about 20 miles away. I can pick it up 100 percent on the C4, CM4221 and CM4228 if pointed at its tower but its tower is in the opposite direction as the other stations so it comes in around 72 percent from the backside which still provides a steady picture.


WAND 18 NBC is about 55 miles away and the C4, CM4221 and CM4228 all pick it up usually at 100 percent or close to 100 percent.


WBUI 22 CW is about 55 miles away and the C4, CM4221 and CM4228 all pick it up usually at 100 percent.


WICS 42 ABC is about 20 miles away and the C4, CM4221 and CM4228 all pick WICS up at 100 percent.


WRSP 44 FOX is about 20 miles away and the C4, CM4221 and CM4228 all pick WRSP up at 100 percent.


WCFN 53 MyNet/CBS is about 20 miles away. WCFN is low power at only 1.8kw. They are supposed to upgrade soon moving to real digital channel 13 but its another Nexstar station who has not had the money to build full power digital stations. This is where the C4 wins. I get a 79 percent signal on the C4 but the CM4221 and the CM4228 can only get WCFN at 50 percent no higher. The C4 also holds a steady 72 percent. The CM4221 and CM4228 will fluctuate in the mid to high 40's.


The C4 also wins in that it can pick up stations from a wider angle than the CM4221 and the CM4228. The CM4228 is especially narrow in the direction it can be pointed as is well known with a narrow 15 percent angle. And being so big can be hard to turn much because it takes up so much space. So the C4 also has the advantage of being smaller and lighter in weight.


Comparing the CM4221 and the CM4228 they seem to work about the same for my conditions but in the summer when I can pick up Saint Louis stations at night in the humid weather the CM4228 picked up the Saint Louis stations a little stronger than the CM4221.


If anyone is wondering if they should buy a clearstream antenna my results are the C4 works better for me than the CM4221 or CM4228 by a little on a weak station. Also WCIA digital real channel 48 which is 80 miles away was coming in pixeling on the C4 but not at all on the CM4221 or CM4228. I do not need WCIA as WCFN is a simulcast but it is an example.


If anyone wants to buy my CM4221 or CM4228 I will sell it to you at a fair price. Both were bought in the summer of 2008 and used inside their cardboard box behind my TV. I do not need them anymore. The CM4228 takes up so much space it would especially be good if someone wants it.


I also tried the Winegard HD-1080. I did not like it. I could not get WILL which was the reason I bought it but it was not rated to pick up stations that far away anyway at 65 miles away. I did not like how the bowties on the Winegard HD-1080 move. The CM4221 and CM4228 are made better and more sturdy being steel rather than aluminum. It seemed the Winegard HD-1080 worked about as well as the CM4221 for UHF but I could not keep it in its box to sit up like the CM4221 and CM4228.


----------



## TheOpenBox

Has anyone tried out the Monoprice OTA Antenna ?


It's not too bad of a price.. I'm not quite sure of I should pull the trigger on this one..


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Has anyone tried out the Monoprice OTA Antenna ?



It performs similar to the RS 5200, Philips MANT940, and GE Outdoor of similar style, Im guessing. A couple of posters have tried it and liked it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for that overview bmarchand! Very informative.


I dont like the 4228.


I do very much like the Channel Master 4221 and 4220 in the old style, not the new Chinese style.


I gave the edge to the Antennas Direct ClearStream2 over the 4220. So your appraisal seems to be inline with that....seeing as you like the ClearStream4 over the 4221. Thanks for the in depth analysis of backside reception and beamwidth...between them.


The 4220 and 4221 are much cheaper than the C2 and C4, so they have a considerable value advantage for most. However I dont like the newer Chinese produced models and the C2 will take its place nicely.


Dont forget the C1!


Good antennas. I posted some good info on them from another forum where the owner of Terrestrial Digital was communicating about them. That seems like a good addition to the front page as well for further write ups.


Thanks again for sharing!


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmarchand* /forum/post/15434198
> 
> 
> I just bought a Clearstream C4 and it is the best antanna I have tried.



Thanks for your comprehensive and informative comparison and contrast of the various antennas you've tried. I'm a little surprised since I haven't seen any rave reviews of the C4 until now. Nice to know that someone is having good luck with it!


By the way, it's nice to hear from someone in central IL. I lived in Springfield for 15 years before I moved to Denver about 3 years ago.


Happy new year!!


----------



## bmarchand

Thanks Rick, that is cool you used to live in Springfield, IL like me.


And thanks EV for the nice comments. I like reading about antennas and you have down a lot of good work here.


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TheOpenBox* /forum/post/15434454
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried out the Monoprice OTA Antenna ?
> 
> 
> It's not too bad of a price.. I'm not quite sure of I should pull the trigger on this one..



It works well for me. I'm 30 miles north of the antenna farm in Dallas. Placement in a window worked the best for me, although my window faces east.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Still no RS 1862s for me to try out against the 1880. I dont think there will be much of a difference....probably undecipherable difference without proper testing equipment.


----------



## holl_ands

Preparing for 17Feb, I analyzed High-Performance (i.e. not small) DIY

Zig-Zag Hi-VHF Band Antennas (such as would be installed in an ATTIC).

See post in DIY VHF Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15451710


----------



## Flak

Looking for suggestion for an indoor antenna. Here is my tvfool info...

current:
 


post feb:
 


Off amazon I was considering the Eagle Aspen, but am open to suggestions as the more reading I do the more confused I get.


Thanks,

-Flak


----------



## fallenbuddha

I posted this in the SF thread of the Local HDTV Info forum, but I think I might get better advice here.


My brother lives on the 2nd story of a 4 story apartment building near Pier 39 in San Francisco with his windows facing almost directly west. There are tall buildings and hills between him and the tower. He is currently set up with a Radio Shack 1892 "the UFO" indoor antenna, which, after some experimentation, manages to bring in only two watchable stations - Fox and (I think) KOFY (using the Zenith 901 converter box).


Can anyone suggest a viable indoor solution I could try that might work better or is this more or less a lost cause? The TV is up against the South wall, which separates the livingroom from the bedroom (and I believe there's one apartment between him and the street).


Here's what tvfool shows for the location:


Pre-transition:










Post-transition:










Thanks in advance for any suggestions anyone might have.


----------



## deltaguy

How is your brothers analog reception? If it's good, he may be in good shape, but only after the digital antennas are raised on Sutro. That will happen in the late summer or fall of 2009. Consider cable or satellite for the interim.


----------



## gi32tgilkg

Hey, I'm looking for suggestions for a good indoor antenna. Here's my TVfool results.

Here's the pre-transition.









Now post-transition.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Flak, the Eagle Aspen would be a good choice for you, however you would probably not get PBS ch. 10-1, Real Channel 8, however you have another PBS station on Real Channel 35, 36-1, that has you covered there. You would also have a good shot at the channels in red at 9 degrees +/- depending on your imediate environmental factors. It really depends on what channels you are shooting for, or would be happy with.


Other options, would be the Channel Master 4149, the RS Classic Single Bowtie, and the RS 1874 Budget RE&Loop.


You dont need amplification in my estimation.....and Im guessing multipath interference isnt a big problem in West Bend WI.


Good Luck, let us know how it goes.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

gi32, as I told flak it really depends on what channels you are aiming to get. If you just want to get the local towers at 12 miles the RS 1874 Budget RE&Loop would probably do you fine.


The VHF channels at distance in Yellow and Red may be very difficult to get with an Amplified VHF dipoles....but you should be able to get the UHF stuff with a good indoor UHF antenna.


So, we need more information on what is acceptable and what is prefferable, and what is non negotiable in the channels you are trying to tune. What tuner box or TV you have would help as well.


----------



## gi32tgilkg

Hi EV, the only station that would be worthwhile to me in the yellow or red would be CHNU-TV, with or without the star next to it. All of the other red or yellow stations, I believe are translators of the locals.


----------



## dtloken




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15468353
> 
> 
> Flak, the Eagle Aspen would be a good choice for you, however you would probably not get PBS ch. 10-1, Real Channel 8, however you have another PBS station on Real Channel 35, 36-1, that has you covered there. You would also have a good shot at the channels in red at 9 degrees +/- depending on your imediate environmental factors. It really depends on what channels you are shooting for, or would be happy with.
> 
> 
> Other options, would be the Channel Master 4149, the RS Classic Single Bowtie, and the RS 1874 Budget RE&Loop.
> 
> 
> You dont need amplification in my estimation.....and Im guessing multipath interference isnt a big problem in West Bend WI.
> 
> 
> Good Luck, let us know how it goes.



PBS 10 and 36 are both operated by Milwaukee Public Television. The HD feed is carried on 10, 36 carries the various alternate SD feeds. 10 is pretty necessary here if you like PBS. For what it is worth I can pick up channel 10 on my DB4/Motorola BDA S-1 amplifier combo from around 35 miles away indoors depending on antenna aiming.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

gi32, how about the Petra SuperPower 32db. I think you are on the edge of overload territory, I think the extra amping would benefit you in less than ideal weather conditions, and the Petra has a larger 9 inch loop that is thicker as well plus adjustable power. It also has VHF dipoles for your channel 10 and 8 post switchover.


Id give that a shot.


----------



## Advance The Man

I already own a CM 3020 http://www.channelmasterintl.com/3020.html . It was for a fringe property that I never used it for. Now I'm in a suburb, modern subdivision and I would place this in the attic. I notice on the Channel Master website that this is not listed as a HDTV antenna. Haven't tested yet, because this thing is HUGE and will be an effort to install. It is necessary as I'm 15 miles, but with many trees in the way on a hill. Not direct line of site. Will this still work for receiving HD?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yes, its a UHF/VHF combo antenna. The new digital signals still broadcast on UHF and VHF.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15379998
> 
> The Radio Shack Budget TV Antenna
> 
> Model: T#749
> 
> Catalog #: 15-1874



Doesn't Radio Shack's Budget antenna resemble the Channel Master CM 4000 (which comes without UHF loop)? Is it just coincidence?


----------



## Doc Sief

Dear Fallenbudda-


> Quote:
> I posted this in the SF thread of the Local HDTV Info forum, but I think I might get better advice here.
> 
> 
> My brother lives on the 2nd story of a 4 story apartment building near Pier 39 in San Francisco with his windows facing almost directly west. There are tall buildings and hills between him and the tower. He is currently set up with a Radio Shack 1892 "the UFO" indoor antenna, which, after some experimentation, manages to bring in only two watchable stations - Fox and (I think) KOFY (using the Zenith 901 converter box).
> 
> 
> Can anyone suggest a viable indoor solution I could try that might work better or is this more or less a lost cause? The TV is up against the South wall, which separates the livingroom from the bedroom (and I believe there's one apartment between him and the street).




Kinda wondering if a Clear Stream4 might not be the ticket. With its wider angle of coverage and its ability pull strong signals off its backside, and its High VHF pickup, throw a low noise 10dB pre-amp on it and I can't imagine that it wouldn't be able to get most stations.


----------



## vagabundo

This is a great site and a super sub-thread. I live in an apartment in Park Ridge, IL, facing O'Hare (away from the transmitters). Here is my TVfool info. I do not have access to an outdoor solution, so indoor has to be it. Any help would be very much appreciated!


----------



## Doc Sief




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vagabundo* /forum/post/15546169
> 
> 
> This is a great site and a super sub-thread. I live in an apartment in Park Ridge, IL, facing O'Hare (away from the transmitters). Here is my TVfool info. I do not have access to an outdoor solution, so indoor has to be it. Any help would be very much appreciated!



One of your problems will be that wonderful ABC station WLS coming in at the low side of High VHF, but you are so close to everything that if your TV is near a southeast facing window a good old pair of rabbit ears and UHF Loop like Radio Shack 15-1874. If your TV is far away from there, either a roof top ClearStream 1 (or if you want to get the more distant stations a CS2). I would try it inside before mounting it outside.


----------



## pjcampo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kumo* /forum/post/15184077
> 
> 
> I have not used the AntennasDirect DB2, only the Eagle Aspen product, so I have no basis for comparison of actual performance. From measurements, it appears that the Eagle Aspen elements may be millimeters longer than the DB2's, so there might be (but probably is not) a very slight advantage for the Eagle Aspen at the lower frequency end of the UHF range.
> 
> 
> FWIW, I had none of the problems with the balun transformer connector clip reported by some of the Amazon reviews; I also would not call the screen the "front" and the bow-tie elements the "back" of the antenna as one of the reviewers at Amazon did.




We just got the HD-1080, and I am having a hard time not even just figuring out what i the front and what is the rear, but how it lies. Does it not lie like a typical antenna???


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here, the side that has the highest gain is directly facing the viewer. The antenna is mounted on a pole which points to the Zenith and extends toward the center of the Earth, in this picuture. The bowties are the active UHF elements, the extensions behind them are mostly reflectors but the 2 longest ones are active VHF elements.


----------



## pjcampo

Thanks. So it lies opposite that of a regular style roof antenna. Sort of perpendicular to the ground, rather than parallel ? If we were pointing it towards a transmitter, the transmitter would see what we see in the picture? Thanks again...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

You got it.


----------



## mmeyer

I'm looking fro recommendations for an indoor antenna for my 5th floor condo in San Francisco. My TVFool results are attached.


I care most about receiving the following stations:

Fox 2.1 56

ABC 7.1 24

NBC 11.1 12

CBS 5.1 29

CW 44.1 45


I'm currently using the antenna that came with my HDTV Wonder (it looks like a silver sensor) and Fox, ABC, CBS and CW come in pretty good (signal strength 75-80 on my TivoHD) if the antenna is pointed correctly (the direction is a bit sensitive), but NBC is very weak. I'm not sure if this is because of the directionality of the antenna or UHF vs. VHF.


Is there another indoor antenna (or amplifier) that I should try to get everything in with rock solid signal strength, or is this as good as it will get for indoor antennae?


Thanks

Mark


PS - I'm also a bit worried about ABC moving to frequency 7 after the digital transition - Should I be?


----------



## scoutmb

Pretty much a newbie. Would be grateful for any insights for an indoor antenna. No particular channel. More the merry.


Pre Transition











Post Transition











Thanks!


----------



## bassfreak

Newby as well.


I pulled the following channels from antenna web for my address, zip code 91384. Can a indoor antenna work?


If so, are TERKs good or is/are there any other brands I can consider?



DTV Antenna

yellow uhf

KCET-DT 28.1 PBS

yellow uhf

KFTR-DT 46.1 TFA

yellow uhf

KMEX-DT 34.1 UNI

yellow uhf

KCBS-DT 2.1 CBS

yellow uhf

KJLA-DT 57.1 IND

yellow uhf

KFTR-DT 46.1 TFA

yellow vhf

KABC-DT 7.1 ABC

yellow vhf

KCAL-DT 9.1 IND

yellow uhf

KMEX-DT 34.1 UNI

yellow uhf

KTLA-DT 5.1 CW

green uhf

KJLA-DT 57.1 IND

green uhf

KNBC-DT 4.1 NBC


Channels

A: 2.1, 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 7.1, 9.1, 9.1, 11.1, 11.1, 13.1, 28.1, 28.1, 34.1, 34.1, 44.1, 46.1, 46.1, 50.1, 54.1, 56.1, 57.1, 57.1

*Medium Multi-directional

DESCRIPTION Somewhat larger and slightly more powerful

APPEARANCE These antennas include novel stick, wing shaped or disk antennas with long elements.

USE Green color code areas. An amplified antenna is recommended in the green area anytime a long (20 feet or more) cable run from the antenna is required, or when more than one device (TV or VCR) is to be used with an antenna. They work best away from reflecting structures or low areas.*






Thanks


----------



## ylee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mmeyer* /forum/post/15563047
> 
> 
> I'm looking fro recommendations for an indoor antenna for my 5th floor condo in San Francisco. My TVFool results are attached.
> 
> 
> I care most about receiving the following stations:
> 
> Fox 2.1 56
> 
> ABC 7.1 24
> 
> NBC 11.1 12
> 
> CBS 5.1 29
> 
> CW 44.1 45



I've had good luck with the DB2 . I have it hung on a window of my ninth-floor SOMA condo with heavy-duty suction cup hooks , hidden behind blinds.


The signal quality of the above stations plus 4.2 and 9.1 is excellent at night, despite the windows only facing east. NBC can be a bit inconsistent during the day but the night reception is of course more important. Before the DB2 I used a Silver Sensor and a Radio Shack antenna (not one of the two highest-rated ones discussed here); both were maddeningly inconsistent regardless of where I placed them in my apartment. Although the DB2 is larger than either, its flat form factor in many ways permits easier placement.


Given the indoor location I must emphasize the importance of your willingness to experiment with location and orientation. Moving it just six inches, or rotating it 45 degrees, could very well mean the difference between great and terrible reception!



> Quote:
> Is there another indoor antenna (or amplifier)



An amplifier is worse than useless for people like you and me who live within a few miles of the Sutro and San Bruno antennas.



> Quote:
> PS - I'm also a bit worried about ABC moving to frequency 7 after the digital transition - Should I be?



I don't know the answer to this either. Again, we are so close to Sutro that I'm hoping that my UHF DB2 will pick up KGO's VHF signal, but I won't know until the transition occurs.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Nice mount solution with the DB2 ylee!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Scoutmb, I would try the RS 1892 or the 1880 if you can find one....and also pick up the 1874 Budget Radio Shack antenna which you can return if it doesnt pan out....to see what you can get.....you may overload the tuner with amplification from the 1892 or 1880(which wont damage your tuner, it just wont work or you will have problems with your most powerful signals)...however the 1892 or 1880 should be good to go for you. You might try the Petra SuperPower 32db as well.


You need Rabbit Ears for ABC on Real Channel 6 (VHF Lo) and your recievable out of market (in red) ABC is on VHF Hi (though on the low end) so that is your main difficulty....limiting your choices. That being said Im pretty confident the RS 1892 will work well for you. You might go to the local Radio Shack and pick up both the 1892 UFO and teh Budget 1874 RE&Loop, and just return the lessor satisfactory one as they have a good return policy...that is about as simple yet thorough as you are going to get.


Good Luck, let us know how it pans out for you.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

bassfreak, looks like everything is coming from the same direction....which is good. Los Angeles has a number of VHF Hi stations post transition....so you will need Rabbit Ears.


Try the RS 1892 UFO which you should be able to leave in one setting as all the transmitters are in the same direction. (Just tape the remote to the underside of the mushroom head and forget it). You might want to get the RS 1874 Budget Unamplified RE&Loop while you are at RadioShack, just to try it out so you see if the UFO is much better, and return whichever one you decide based on price and performance.


Like Scoutmb, other good alternatives are the Petra SuperPower 32db and the RS 1880, if you can find one.


----------



## bassfreak

Will do,


thank you EscapeVelocity


----------



## johnlvs2run

A friend of mine lives in Vancouver, Washington, near Portland, Oregon.

She has a old Sylvania 13" tv with a rod antenna, and RCA800 converter box.

This is her 2nd tv, the other is on basic cable, but if this works well she might switch that one too.


Amazingly, the RCA picks up 20 stations!

However, the reception is very buggy, probably due to the indequate antenna.


What commercial indoor antenna would you recommend?

Would the RS budget antenna be good, or would a higher priced one be a lot better?

Thanks.


----------



## deltaguy

The PBS station KOPB returns to VHF after the transition on channel 10 John. You'll want both UHF and VHF capability.


----------



## johnlvs2run

Deltaguy, thanks.


Based on the ratings, perhaps the RS 1892 is the best one for Portland?










http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...uctId=2131034&


----------



## deltaguy

The UFO is an amplified antenna, but I don't know if it can be used with the amplifier turned off. The signal numbers you posted don't show a need for amplification. I'm partial to a single classic bowtie for UHF reception here using a tv signal combiner to attach it to dipoles (rabbit ears).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

john, try the RS Budget.....your tvfool of -25dbm is too strong for amplification. -40dbm is about where amplification can be used, and you have just a couple at that, and then a severe dropoff of difficult to recieve stations that you should forget about with an indoor antenna.


However if you are willing to live without Real Channel 5 (it doesnt seem to be one of the major broadcasters...but maybe its a Canadian Broadcasting Corp or something I dont know), then you could go with a Single Bowtie and it should do you very well(better than the RS Budget).


Good Luck and let us know how it goes.


----------



## BillZM




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vagabundo* /forum/post/15546169
> 
> 
> This is a great site and a super sub-thread. I live in an apartment in Park Ridge, IL, facing O'Hare (away from the transmitters). Here is my TVfool info. I do not have access to an outdoor solution, so indoor has to be it. Any help would be very much appreciated!



We have a location in Park Ridge with a basement TV aimed through most of the brick house at the towers downtown 13 miles away (I'm assuming most are at the Sears Tower and/or the Hancock Building). Using a Zenith (LG) converter box and an older passive Radio Shack rabbit ear / loop, we're receiving clearly almost all the stations tvfool lists in the "indoor antenna" category (essentially everything with signal strength -60 or stronger, except perhaps one station). In another location, 23 miles from towers, I'm using the new Radio Shack "budget antenna" (15-1874) and it's performing admirably; I'd suggest you try that first if you don't mind looking at it. If you prefer to hide something behind the TV, you might try a DB2 or Eagle Aspen (clone of DB2) in the shipping box. That should also handle UHF fine; I'm guessing channel 7 will be OK too as it's so strong, but that's a guess. This all assumes you're trying only for the stations at 12 miles.


----------



## tranzparentl

I just ordered an DTVPal DVR and am planning on purchasing an antenna to go along with it.


I was looking at the RCA ANT series but wasn't quite sure the differences in the models. 1450, 1500, 1550? Is it worth getting the higher model number?


----------



## johnlvs2run

EscapeV and Delta, thanks to both of you for your helpful messages.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/15589536
> 
> 
> I'm partial to a single classic bowtie for UHF reception here using a tv signal combiner to attach it to dipoles (rabbit ears).



Summing up, the options are (1) bowtie & rabbit ears, (2) 1874 (easiest), (3) 1892 (probably not needed for there).


----------



## BillZM

In an older thread, Rammitinski posted this comment: "Remember to give the UHF element a half-turn if doesn't get good results the first way. Usually it's better with the bowties horizontal, but not always."


What does he mean by "horizontal"? You could interpret this either way. Loops side by side, or over/under?

At any rate, I seem to be getting better signal strength with them over/under as in EV's pictures of 15-1862 and 15-1880 on Page 1.


I was lucky enough to snag two of these recently and so far they seem promising. I'm getting strong signals on 4 or 5 of the Chicago channels 62 miles out, basically everything down to -70dB on the TVfool plot (10dB deeper than the good performance I'm getting down to -60dB with the RS 15-1874 Budget rabbit ear / loop, which I'm also happy with).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

BillZ, how about a comparison between the 2. Ive been outbid on 2 1862s in the last 6 months.....Ive been trying to pick one up to do a comparison.


The pics on the front page are what Rammitinski was talking about, and I agree that is was a bit ambiguous and confusing.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

John, in fact the amplification in the 1892 in all likelyhood will cause it to perform worse than the 1874.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BillZM* /forum/post/15603446
> 
> 
> What does he mean by "horizontal"? You could interpret this either way. Loops side by side, or over/under?



Loops over and under. Or top and bottom. Whichever way you prefer to say it.


I'm in the Chicago area too, and that's the only way it works for me.


----------



## BillZM




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15609297
> 
> 
> BillZ, how about a comparison between the 2. Ive been outbid on 2 1862s in the last 6 months.....Ive been trying to pick one up to do a comparison.
> 
> 
> The pics on the front page are what Rammitinski was talking about, and I agree that is was a bit ambiguous and confusing.



EV & Rammitinski: Thanks. I'm finding over/under better too. Similar to orientation of 2-bay bowtie antennas I'd guess.


EV: The two antennas I bought are both 15-1880's. I haven't seen many 15-1862's out there. I understand from your Page 1 that the 1862 may have a slightly higher gain amplifier. Do you run your 1880's at full gain?

I might do a systematic comparison of the 1880 vs 1874 at some point.


----------



## TheGreenFox

What indoor antenna would you recommend? RS 1874 or something else?

Thanks


----------



## BillZM




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TheGreenFox* /forum/post/15614873
> 
> 
> What indoor antenna would you recommend? RS 1874 or something else?
> 
> Thanks



My experience is the 1874 brings in nicely virtually everything down to -60dB LOS which is all but two of your 11mi channels. I'd guess these last two would show breakups; an amplified antenna might help on them if you care about those two. I'm in a frame house aiming the antenna through the house (not out a window); other construction might change this. I thought I could always return it if I didn't like it, but it performs well and consistently; it's too good to return.


----------



## ehorrell

Hey guys, thanks for a great thread. I'm in Louisville, KY and have been getting a clear QAM signal over the cable for a while. My bill keeps going up for some reason so I decided to go OTA and drop the cable. I started out with a 1874 and I was able to get a good deal of my stations with a homemade reflector. However, its really touchy and rather obnoxious looking. I'm considering an 1892 but I wanted to get an opinion from someone here. I've attached my tvfool info. TV is in a walkout basement near the outside facing wall. Thanks!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is an interesting looking antenna that I might pick up and take for a spin. It looks a lot like the Silver Sensor clones but has more mounting options like the Channel Master Silver Sensor clone on the front page.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HDTV-VHF-UHF-TV-...1%7C240%3A1318


----------



## ehorrell

Well, I just got my RS 1892 and I'm wondering if its defective. It seems to take forever to change antenna positions... the motor is almost constantly running. Should I take it back or is this normal for this antenna?


----------



## taugust04

I tried to scan the entire thread to see if this item was discussed, but didn't see anyone post about it.


Any opinions/experiences with this antenna:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170295170525 


Looks more like a shortwave antenna to me than for TV!


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *taugust04* /forum/post/15628418
> 
> 
> I tried to scan the entire thread to see if this item was discussed, but didn't see anyone post about it.
> 
> 
> Any opinions/experiences with this antenna:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170295170525
> 
> 
> Looks more like a shortwave antenna to me than for TV!



It appears to be single bay gray hoverman design attenna, perhaps missing some elements. Not built the way the Canadians recommend but appears the same. See: http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/ His gain curves match those of the gray hoverman design, even down to the copyright notice...


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ehorrell* /forum/post/15627315
> 
> 
> Well, I just got my RS 1892 and I'm wondering if its defective. It seems to take forever to change antenna positions... the motor is almost constantly running. Should I take it back or is this normal for this antenna?



Not precise enough information.


----------



## kedirekin




> Quote:
> It appears to be single bay gray hoverman design attenna, perhaps missing some elements. Not built the way the Canadians recommend but appears the same.



It's almost a perfect copy of Keo's flexible build seen on the Designs page of the GH Super Antenna site you mention - minus the reflector. A reflectorless GH has a lot less gain, especially on the lower UHF channels, down around 4-5 dBd, far less than the 12-15 dB claimed.


The e-bay auction also claims the antenna covers the full HD spectrum - VHF included. That is totally misleading. The stock GH has virtually no reception on VHF.


I don't know if I'd go so far as to call this an e-bay scam, but it's definitely something.


----------



## ehorrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15629140
> 
> 
> Not precise enough information.



Well, when I first powered on the device the motor did not stop running until after a good 10 minutes. I noticed that it appeared to be programmed to a channel, so I reset the device to factory settings. The motor no longer runs constantly, but it seems to take at least 3 minutes or more between positions. I'm just wondering if this is normal, as the box claimed it would move between positions "in seconds".


In terms of reception I'm doing all right, but actually had better luck with the 1874 and reflector. I have a Samsung LN-T4066F TV with a built in ATSC tuner.


Thanks for any help you all can provide!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Sounds like you have a defective unit.




What was your TVFool, I forget?


----------



## johnlvs2run




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ehorrell* /forum/post/15629648
> 
> 
> In terms of reception I'm doing all right, but actually had better luck with the 1874 and reflector. I have a Samsung LN-T4066F TV with a built in ATSC tuner.



What kind of reflector?


Did you get as much distance with the 1874?


----------



## ehorrell

EV - my TVFool is attached to post 1214. I guess I'll take it by radio shack and compare it to another 1892 and see if its the same.


johnlvs2run - the reflector was just one of the homemade cardboard covered in foil tricks that is shown in the first post. The 1874 w/ reflector gave me a stronger signal with the closer channels, while the 1892 picked up a few farther out.


Thanks for the responses! I'm itching to drop that cable so the help is very much appreciated!


----------



## b_weeks

I have attached the TVFOOL image for my location. I live in an apartment on the 3rd floor. I can't mount anything outside as my lease prevents it. My only windows face W / very slightly NW (less than 10 degrees).


Budget is not an issue.


This is going to be connected to a tuner card in my HTPC to pick up the local channels. If you need to know, the card is a Hauppauge 1800.


----------



## txtl

I'm living in O.C California. I tried all models from Radio Shack. Some Phillips model from Target. All of these do not work well. I have the best luck with GE Optima 24713. I'm able to watch all available channels reported by antennaweb.org from 2-69. There's also some channels not listed on antennaweb.org shown up as well. The home made hanger coat antenna performs well too.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Is that the amplified or non amplified version?


----------



## spikesgm

Here is my TVFOOL info - http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d%3d6c91807778 . My problem is I cannot get WHYY (PBS). I have 3 converter boxes and no WHYY on any of them. The first I set up several months ago and received Whyy but not KYW. After setting up the others I learned that the channels had to be re-scanned each time the antenna was re-oriented. After doing that on the first device I lost WHYY but now get KYW. I am using old rabbit ears with loops and 1 old Terk low profile antennas since I am less than 3 miles from transmitters. Any ideas for getting WHYY? Should I just go back to analog until the transition?


----------



## rec630




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15655067
> 
> 
> Is that the amplified or non amplified version?



Per amazon, that would seem to be the non-amplified. The 24714 appears to be the amplified version.


----------



## johnlvs2run

I get everything except PBS here.


I read somewhere that they're not going to be connected until February 18th.


There's been no response from them to an email.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spikesgm* /forum/post/15658872
> 
> 
> Any ideas for getting WHYY?



Even at your close proximity to the transmitters, indoor reception can be tricky. Patience and persistence are your friends. In my situation, for example, an inch or two one way or the other can mean the difference between excellent reception and no reception.


The good thing is that since most of your stations are within 3 miles, pretty much any antenna should do the job, but you definitely wouldn't want an amplifier at that distance. It's just a matter of finding that sweet spot that gives you the best reception. Do you have any windows that face the transmitters? If so, then that would probably be the best place to put your antenna to begin with. Otherwise, try to place the antenna as far away from anything metal as possible and away from other electronic equipment like a computer, stereo, etc.


If you are having trouble orienting the antenna for digital, try orienting it using a few of your analog stations as a reference point, and then do a scan for the digitals. Some of the converters will allow you to add individual stations and will show you a signal meter on that screen which can be useful for orienting the antenna as well.


The bottom line is that it involves a lot of trial and error. There is no magic solution that works for everyone. Good luck!


----------



## triplelake

Hi, looking for suggestion for a good indoor antenna. I live on the 3rd floor of an apartment building in Belmont, CA and all the windows face southwest. I would like to get at least the ABC and FOX channels.

I've attached the TVfool results. Thanks a lot!


----------



## streeter69

I think I need an outdoor antenna







I am 63 miles from the digital towers










What do you guys think? I live in the middle of nowhere arizona. To me it looks like I will be pulling stations in from Las Vegas and not phoniex










I am not sure link is working, I am at 86413.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ive been out of town. Ill try to get to everybody's questions tonight.


----------



## newsjnkie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *b_weeks* /forum/post/15643584
> 
> 
> I have attached the TVFOOL image for my location. I live in an apartment on the 3rd floor. I can't mount anything outside as my lease prevents it. My only windows face W / very slightly NW (less than 10 degrees).
> 
> 
> Budget is not an issue.
> 
> 
> This is going to be connected to a tuner card in my HTPC to pick up the local channels. If you need to know, the card is a Hauppauge 1800.



Maybe something like this behind a cabinet would do the trick for you?


C:\\Documents and Settings\\Frank\\Desktop\\MyAntenna\\FrankFontElephantEarAnt enna.htm


I'm between 11 and 30 miles from the transmitters and am pulling in over 30 digital channels.


----------



## PanamaMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14176948
> 
> *Radio Shack RS 15-1892 - The UFO*
> 
> 
> *aka The Magic Mushroom, The Starship Enterprise, The Frisbee*
> 
> 
> 
> This thing is GREAT! The geek factor is high on this one! LOL! Its freakin sweet! Its like a Smart Antenna without the tuner control interface.
> 
> 
> I bought this one used....and it came with everthing but the instructions. Undaunted, i hooked it up, and found that I could set the channels and move the rotating antenna within the disc and set the positions and gain, pretty intuitively. I later downloaded and printed instructions in order to write this mini review. This one will be longer than others. Although I only have basically 2 different tower locations, this thing rocked, and would be 10 times more useful if I had more tower directions. Non the less, it was useful at my location....and performed excellently. This one was too close to call really with DB2 unamped, RS DA-5200, and the amped RCA ANT1500. Its got a nice backlit LCD readout for the Channel #, Direction #(kinda arbitrary), and Gain Level #. You can choose between 3 gain levels, 1-2-3, or Low-Medium-High, corresponding (according to the manual) to 13db Min, 18db Min, and 22db Min amplifier levels. I tried this out but ended up setting all my channels to high gain for no particular reason other than "let's go full blast...Warp Speed!" There are 12 selectable positions for the antenna within its disc. There are Plus and Minus buttons on the remote which change the gain level. There are also Left and Right arrow buttons that change the direction of the antenna within its disc. Additionally, there is a press and hold button to turn off the LED display backlight, and a number pad to input channels. The remote is pretty small, but fairly simple to operate. All the buttons are the same size, and its not backlit, and its kind of hard to read...but the layout is simple enough, and the buttons large enough to operate. There is one more large button on the remote with the label Store, for storing a group of settings for an individual channel once you have it set up in the right direction and gain for best signal on that particular channel. One thing to note is that when the antenna moves, the motor is audible, but not obnoxiously loud. Kinda reassuring actually, you can hear that its working. On the back there is a 75ohm coax output hookup and an Aux input, and a switch to choose between the antenna and the Aux input....plus the power input, comes with wall wart and 6ft of detachable coax, plus remote, and guide booklet. It has 2 telescoping Rabbit Ears that are adjustable but limited in motion by the disc. I didnt really test them out....nor any of the other units really. They are for VHF reception. This unit does not have an FM Trap, and can be used as an FM antenna via its Rabbit Ears. The disc measures slightly over 12", its a pretty large antenna. There are Left Right Arrow buttons for changing the antenna position within the disc, and Plus and Minus buttons for adjusting the gain on the front of the antenna left and right of the LCD info panel, plus the push and hold button for turning off the LCD backlight.
> 
> 
> Performance.
> 
> 
> I only tested this unit on top of the Oppo 970 DVD player, it didnt make it to the North corner window like the RS Single Bow Tie and the amped RCA ANT1500 and some others did. It worked pretty good, from my original positioning. But later, after I figured out the remote and operation, I moved it some, but still on top of the Oppo to optimize its performance. I found that all my Charleston channels that are clustered tightly to the North East at 45 miles worked best on postion 8 and slightly worse on postion 7 and 9....and my alternate PBS station at 23 miles SW worked best at position 1 or 12....I probably could have centered its performance on one or the other by twisting the unit slightly clockwise or counter clockwise. With a little tweaking, I had this thing running the board on all my channels, but it seemed that the signal strength may have been a little less than the RS DA-5200. My Vizio GV42LF LCD doesnt have signal strength bars....that is why I havent been reporting them.
> 
> 
> How to set the antenna for a channel?
> 
> 
> This is how I did it. I first changed to the desired channel on the Vizio TV. Then I entered the corresponding channel # on the remote which was then indicated on The UFO's LCD screen, in order to set the antenna direction and gain settings to maximize its performance on that channel. Then I moved the antenna direction with the Left and Right Arrows all the way from position 1 thru 12, it became obvious when the reception locked on. Lets say that channel 8 and 7 seemed like the best candidates from the quick run thru the positions. Then I moved up to 9 to check, and it still worked but with pixelation and dropouts. Back to 8 then on to 7 then 6...oops getting worse again. A/B 7 and 8, physically twist or move the unit if you need to, and there you have it. Position 8. Then check the gain level. Boom you are finished. Push and hold the store button, the info on the panel starts blinking, then press the store button again, and its set. You may have to adjust the gain earlier, if you are overloading your tuner. I cant comment on the effectiveness of the gain adjustment.
> 
> 
> None the less...
> 
> 
> Pretty geekin' sweet! Beam me up Scotty!
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a link to the UFO on Radio Shacks Website, where you can read user reviews and link to the manual in pdf format.
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/sm-buy-the...i-2131034.html
> 
> *eidt: The manual states that there are 99 channel presets available, Ch. 0-99.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide
> 
> 
> Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof
> 
> DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof
> 
> RS 1880
> 
> RCA ANT1500 amped
> 
> RS DA-5200
> *RS 15-1892 UFO*
> 
> DB2 unamped indoors
> 
> Classic Single Bow Tie
> 
> Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors
> 
> Winegard SS-3000
> 
> RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)
> 
> Channel Master 4030
> 
> Philips MANT940
> 
> My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications.... amped
> 
> RS 1868 Delta
> 
> RCA ANT1020
> 
> RCA ANT1500
> 
> Philips MANT 510
> 
> My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications
> 
> RS 1870



Is the UFO capable of automatically changing the direction it points ect... based on the learned channel settings?


I'm having pretty good luck with one if I fine tune the direction the antenna points. However, since I'd be using it with a DVR I'd need it to be able to auto adjust the direction it points.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *streeter69* /forum/post/15709848
> 
> 
> I think I need an outdoor antenna
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am 63 miles from the digital towers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you guys think? I live in the middle of nowhere arizona. To me it looks like I will be pulling stations in from Las Vegas and not phoniex
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure link is working, I am at 86413.



This is results for your zip code only, and not very accurate.









A specific address entered at http://www.tvfool.com would yield a more accurate reception forecast.


Unfortunately, you have stations in all 3 bands: VHF Low, VHF High & UHF. So you will need a large VHF/UHF antenna, like this one . Install it as high as possible and aim it NorthWest, to get the major networks.


You may also need a good low noise VHF/UHF preamp , especially if you plan to split the coax to multiple outlets or if you have a long coax run.


----------



## PanamaMike












I'm close to the towers, however, I'm having trouble getting a good signal. It hovers around the 60's where 66 is a good lock. On a good day low 70's, if pointed at best angle mid 70's.


On rainy days I have to play with the antenna and point it a couple different ways depending on the channel.


Fox give me the most trouble 7 since it's a bit of an oddball.


I've tried 4 antennas.

A simple rabbit ear Philips getup, doesn't work at all

+ Silver Sensor

+ RS UFO

+ RS 2186


Where the RS2186 is marginally better than the Silver Sensor, UFO somewhere in between, but seems to work better than the RS2186 when pointed. However, I can't find one good direction where all channels come in.


I've never had the luck to pull in the one Spanish channel.


What can I do to make things better. I don't know what more to do other than point the antenna. I might have a few building in the way between me and the towers, but I'm not sure. Being 3 miles away I'd think I shouldn't have any trouble at all.


Mike


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PanamaMike* /forum/post/15721897
> 
> 
> Is the UFO capable of automatically changing the direction it points ect... based on the learned channel settings?
> 
> 
> I'm having pretty good luck with one if I fine tune the direction the antenna points. However, since I'd be using it with a DVR I'd need it to be able to auto adjust the direction it points.



Isn't that what make this antenna unique...the fact that is can store position and gain settings on a per channel basis? Are you asking if the DVR can control the UFO? Perhaps. If your DVR can utilize an IR blaster, you should be able to setup something that works. Many people have done this with analog DVRs to control DTV converter boxes.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PanamaMike* /forum/post/15724386
> 
> 
> I'm close to the towers, however, I'm having trouble getting a good signal.



What kind of structure do you live in? Is it a multi-story apartment building, a house, a basement? Is it brick, concrete, or covered in aluminum siding? Do you have any windows that face the transmitters? At only 3 miles from the signal source, I would think you could use a paper clip to get all available stations, so it sounds like you've either got some serious multipath issues or something is blocking your signal.


I know that both AntennaWeb and TVFool show maps of which direction your stations are located in relation to where you are. Have you verified that you are indeed pointing your antennas in the correct direction? Have you tried different locations within your residence?


What type of TV or converter box are you using? Have you tried positioning your antenna so that you are able to receive all of your current analog stations and then try doing a digital scan?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PanamaMike* /forum/post/15724386
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm close to the towers, however, I'm having trouble getting a good signal. It hovers around the 60's where 66 is a good lock. On a good day low 70's, if pointed at best angle mid 70's.
> 
> 
> On rainy days I have to play with the antenna and point it a couple different ways depending on the channel.
> 
> 
> Fox give me the most trouble 7 since it's a bit of an oddball.
> 
> 
> I've tried 4 antennas.
> 
> A simple rabbit ear Philips getup, doesn't work at all
> 
> + Silver Sensor
> 
> + RS UFO
> 
> + RS 2186
> 
> 
> Where the RS2186 is marginally better than the Silver Sensor, UFO somewhere in between, but seems to work better than the RS2186 when pointed. However, I can't find one good direction where all channels come in.
> 
> 
> I've never had the luck to pull in the one Spanish channel.
> 
> 
> What can I do to make things better. I don't know what more to do other than point the antenna. I might have a few building in the way between me and the towers, but I'm not sure. Being 3 miles away I'd think I shouldn't have any trouble at all.
> 
> 
> Mike


* These * often work suprisingly well. Worth a try, since it's returnable. If you do try one, when you assemble it try leaving the dipoles off, since you mainly just need the loop.


Also, you may need an * attenuator *, since you're so close to most transmitters. A particularly strong station might be freaking out your tuner with overload.


Your reception may also improve when some of your stations change frequencies and analog interference is gone.


----------



## PanamaMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/15724650
> 
> 
> Isn't that what make this antenna unique...the fact that is can store position and gain settings on a per channel basis? Are you asking if the DVR can control the UFO? Perhaps. If your DVR can utilize an IR blaster, you should be able to setup something that works. Many people have done this with analog DVRs to control DTV converter boxes.



Yeah, I wasn't sure how I could get the DVR to pass on channel change info. the the UFO. The remote happens to be RF.


Mike


----------



## Lord_Zath

Hey guys - new to this whole thing, but I'm looking to get some converter boxes and go digital after the transition. I'm trying to investigate my options, and attached is my tvfool result (assuming 25 feet in the air). The four channels I care most about are WMAQ (NBC), WBBM (CBS), WGN (CW), and WFLD (FOX). I live on the border of Wisconsin and Illinois - these channels are Chicago channels. From the looks of things, I could probably also pick up Milwaukee channels as well. What I need to know is if I can get the above channels without too much of a hassle. From my limited knowledge, it looks as though an attic-mounted antenna will work fine (I'd prefer not to install an antenna on the roof, especially with the weather we've been having!). Is my assumption correct? Is there anything I should be aware of? Here's things about my setup I'm looking to do.


1. Run antenna from attic to 4-way splitter. Line 1 goes to a second splitter, which runs to the "non-essential" jacks. Line 2 goes to master bedroom. Line 3 goes to family room. Line 4 goes to study.


2. The house has a clear view of the SW sky - possibly obstructed by a house or two, but other than that, a forest is a mile or two to the south.


3. House has vinyl siding, no brick.


A couple questions off the top of my head


- How do I "install" my antenna - just place it somewhere in the attic, find the "best" reception, and clamp it down?


- Do I need an amplifier? I have a left-over amp from a Comcast install which I imagine I could use if needed...


- Which antenna(es) would work best for me?


- What does "DT", "TV", and "LD" mean on the TVFool report? I'm guessing one is an HDTV signal, another is standard definition, but I couldn't find this in the FAQ...


Thanks in advance for all your help!


----------



## PanamaMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/15724863
> 
> * These * often work suprisingly well. Worth a try, since it's returnable. If you do try one, when you assemble it try leaving the dipoles off, since you mainly just need the loop.
> 
> 
> Also, you may need an * attenuator *, since you're so close to most transmitters. A particularly strong station might be freaking out your tuner with overload.
> 
> 
> Your reception may also improve when some of your stations change frequencies and analog interference is gone.



I have tried one of those antennas, maybe I'm calling it the wrong thing, Rabbit ears with the UHF loop. It works very poorly, maybe picks up one station.


I don't know if the attenuator would do the trick, but might be worth a try. How do you know if you're getting over signal?


Mike


----------



## kedirekin

@Lord_Zath


There are many options for attic installation. I'd suggest a J-pole, but even a section of PVC can be made to work. You will probably want some sort of pole, mounted vertical, to allow for easy aiming.


With that many splits, you'll definitely want an amplifier. Luckily your signals are in a sweet spot for a pre-amp; not deep fringe but not too strong, and all about the same strength. You can try the Comcast amp, but it's likely a high noise distribution amp. You'd probably be much better off with a low noise pre-amp.


All your stations are UHF and middling strong. I think you'd do well with a medium range directional UHF antenna. Unfortunately one of the stations you want (CBS) is at 8°, 144° opposite your other channels. A reflectorless DIY M_Clapp 4-bay bow-tie may be your best bet. With no reflector, the antenna will be bi-directional, and you may pick up enough on the back side to pull in CBS. Aiming will be an odd balancing act between 152° on the front side and 8° on the back (or visa-versa).


On TVFool, I believe DT stands for Digital and TV is for analog. I'm not sure what LD stands for, but they appear to be analog as well (no virtual channel numbers). These are just part of the call sign assigned by the FCC. I wouldn't worry about them - just look for presence or absence of the virtual channel.


----------



## Lord_Zath

Thanks for the quick reply - I'm very excited that this is within the realm of possibility - I had been expecting to have to get a big, expensive antenna to do this properly.


One note - the CBS station I want is WBBM, which is in line with the other 3 channels, so that should take care of that problem










I'll check on my comcast amp to see if it's a high or low.


Further questions:


- How much signal is lost coming through a roof and the wood in the attic (just a ballpark figure)?


- Any specific antennas recommended?


- Should I go for an amplified antenna or non-amplified?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kedirekin* /forum/post/15727053
> 
> 
> @Lord_Zath
> 
> 
> There are many options for attic installation. I'd suggest a J-pole, but even a section of PVC can be made to work. You will probably want some sort of pole, mounted vertical, to allow for easy aiming.
> 
> 
> With that many splits, you'll definitely want an amplifier. Luckily your signals are in a sweet spot for a pre-amp; not deep fringe but not too strong, and all about the same strength. You can try the Comcast amp, but it's likely a high noise distribution amp. You'd probably be much better off with a low noise pre-amp.
> 
> 
> All your stations are UHF and middling strong. I think you'd do well with a medium range directional UHF antenna. Unfortunately one of the stations you want (CBS) is at 8°, 144° opposite your other channels. A reflectorless DIY M_Clapp 4-bay bow-tie may be your best bet. With no reflector, the antenna will be bi-directional, and you may pick up enough on the back side to pull in CBS. Aiming will be an odd balancing act between 152° on the front side and 8° on the back (or visa-versa).
> 
> 
> On TVFool, I believe DT stands for Digital and TV is for analog. I'm not sure what LD stands for, but they appear to be analog as well (no virtual channel numbers). These are just part of the call sign assigned by the FCC. I wouldn't worry about them - just look for presence or absence of the virtual channel.


----------



## kedirekin

Oh, all the channels you want are at 8 and 10°? I mistakenly assumed you wanted to pick up the strongest signals at 152°.


Honestly, if it were me, I'd try a coat-hanger 2-bay or 4-bay bow-tie, or maybe a single-bay Gray-Hoverman before plunking money down on a pre-made antenna. I've had excellent luck with a home made Gray-Hoverman.


If that's more hassle than you want, there are a variety of UHF antennas to choose from: Winegard HD 4400, Channel Master 4221HD, Antennas Direct DB4. The Channel Master 4221 used to be a favored model, but it's been recently updated and the jury is still out. The Winegard HD 4400 is another favored antenna.


Actually, before you do anything, you might just want to try a cheap UHF loop antenna on one of your TVs. You have a fair number of channels in the green. An medium sized attic antenna is definately a step up, but you may be able to avoid a whole pile of hassle.


----------



## Lord_Zath

No, they're all at 152 - WMAQ, WBBM, WGN, and WFLD should all be at 152 degrees. Thankfully, they're also the strongest signals










Also, I'm looking to set up the antenna in the attic, thereby providing a signal to all cable jacks in my house. I'll have converter boxes in the bedrooms as well as a USB tuner card for my laptop. The laptop will then function as my DVR and also relay the signal to my receiver/projector combo for normal TV watching. That's how I'm looking to set it up...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kedirekin* /forum/post/15727327
> 
> 
> Oh, all the channels you want are at 8 and 10°? I mistakenly assumed you wanted to pick up the strongest signals at 152°.
> 
> 
> Honestly, if it were me, I'd try a coat-hanger 2-bay or 4-bay bow-tie, or maybe a single-bay Gray-Hoverman before plunking money down on a pre-made antenna. I've had excellent luck with a home made Gray-Hoverman.
> 
> 
> If that's more hassle than you want, there are a variety of UHF antennas to choose from: Winegard HD 4400, Channel Master 4221HD, Antennas Direct DB4. The Channel Master 4221 used to be a favored model, but it's been recently updated and the jury is still out. The Winegard HD 4400 is another favored antenna.
> 
> 
> Actually, before you do anything, you might just want to try a cheap UHF loop antenna on one of your TVs. You have a fair number of channels in the green. An medium sized attic antenna is definately a step up, but you may be able to avoid a whole pile of hassle.


----------



## kedirekin

Sorry, I missed your questions.


I've seen varying estimates for attic loss, from 6 dB to 15 dB. To put that into context, 6 dB is ¼ a strong, 15 dB close to 1/40th as strong. Putting the antenna 6' above the roof is a big help.


You mentioned a lot of splits, so you definitely want an amp. Personally I'd go for the added flexibility of a standard non-amplified antenna and a separate pre-amp, like a Winegard 4780 or a Channel Master 7778.


----------



## Lord_Zath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kedirekin* /forum/post/15727404
> 
> 
> Sorry, I missed your questions.
> 
> 
> I've seen varying estimates for attic loss, from 6 dB to 15 dB. To put that into context, 6 dB is ¼ a strong, 15 dB close to 1/40th as strong. Putting the antenna 6' above the roof is a big help.
> 
> 
> You mentioned a lot of splits, so you definitely want an amp. Personally I'd go for the added flexibility of a standard non-amplified antenna and a separate pre-amp, like a Winegard 4780 or a Channel Master 7778.



Good to know. Am I doing this correctly - if a signal is 45.7 db in strength, I subtract the attic interference (15db to guess high). Next, I add the antenna's gain (conservative 5db estimate). From there, I subtract the signal from each splitter (worst case - two splitters - 7.5 db each = 15db). I end up with 10db of signal to each line as a worst case. My lowest-signal station, CBS, is 26.1 db, which means I'll be around -10db of signal. So an amp would definitely help?


By flexibility of amplifier, do you mean you can put the amp anywhere you want as opposed to one location (built-into antenna)?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PanamaMike* /forum/post/15726254
> 
> 
> I have tried one of those antennas, maybe I'm calling it the wrong thing, Rabbit ears with the UHF loop. It works very poorly, maybe picks up one station.
> 
> 
> I don't know if the attenuator would do the trick, but might be worth a try. How do you know if you're getting over signal?
> 
> 
> Mike



If the tuner is overloaded, tuner sensitivity will decrease and the signal meter will actually show less signal than if the overload wasn't present. You can try an attenuator from Rat Shack and return it if no help.


Rabbit Ear/Loop antennas vary widely in performance. And although purely anectodal, _the specific one I linked to_ has worked very well for me on TV & FM in several instances. It is also rated highly in previous posts earlier in this thread. It's definitely worth a try since it's only 12 bucks and you can get one when you get an attenuator at rat shack.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/15726202
> 
> 
> House has vinyl siding, no brick.



If the vinyl siding had foil backed insulation behind it, and is on the end of the house where your antenna may aim through, reception may be difficult with an indoor/attic antenna.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/15726202
> 
> 
> What does "DT", "TV", and "LD" mean on the TVFool report?



DT = Digital Television. It may be either HD or SD format.

TV usually means analog television, but may also mean digital.

LD is Low power Digital television. It may be HD or SD format, but is usually SD.


----------



## Lord_Zath

Thanks. No foil insulation - just the typical tyvek-style paper stuff.


----------



## NTNgod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/15726202
> 
> 
> The four channels I care most about are WMAQ (NBC), WBBM (CBS), WGN (CW), and WFLD (FOX). I live on the border of Wisconsin and Illinois - these channels are Chicago channels. From the looks of things, I could probably also pick up Milwaukee channels as well.



When I was setting up my grandmother (about 4 miles from you; Bristol - Lake Shangri-la), I had good success with an indoor home-brew 4-bay in front of an west-facing window (which isn't in line with the transmitters at all).


The only problem station - Chicago or Milwaukee - was WBBM2, and that shouldn't be a problem when it gets off channel 3 post-transition.


Your intended setup is slightly different, but I point this out to show that it should be quite doable. She's also mostly surrounded by trees, and is in a slight valley to boot (bottom of hills to her north and south).


Her post-transition TV fool:


----------



## Lord_Zath

Glad to know it can work


----------



## kedirekin




> Quote:
> By flexibility of amplifier, do you mean you can put the amp anywhere you want as opposed to one location (built-into antenna)?



I mean the flexibility to replace or mix and match the way I choose. If I buy an antenna with a built in amp and later decide I want a bigger antenna, I end up discarding the built in amp along with my smaller antenna. Similarly, if the built in amp ever fails, I pay through the nose replacing it - or replacing the whole antenna.


I'd much rather buy separates and keep my options open.



> Quote:
> Am I doing this correctly



You also want to deduct for cable loss - not sure I remember correctly - I think it's 1 dB for each 18 feet of RG6, and balun loss (1-2 dB), and insertion losses for each F-connector (0.5 dB). You'll want to maintain a margin of at least 10 dB on top of that to allow for fluctuations in weather and layering. With all those splits I'm practically certain you're going to need an amp.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NTNgod* /forum/post/15729080
> 
> 
> The only problem station - Chicago or Milwaukee - was WBBM2, and that shouldn't be a problem when it gets off channel 3 post-transition.



But then, you've also got WLS moving to 7 digital and lowering their power.


----------



## PanamaMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/15728477
> 
> 
> If the tuner is overloaded, tuner sensitivity will decrease and the signal meter will actually show less signal than if the overload wasn't present. You can try an attenuator from Rat Shack and return it if no help.
> 
> 
> Rabbit Ear/Loop antennas vary widely in performance. And although purely anectodal, _the specific one I linked to_ has worked very well for me on TV & FM in several instances. It is also rated highly in previous posts earlier in this thread. It's definitely worth a try since it's only 12 bucks and you can get one when you get an attenuator at rat shack.



Couldn't I just test the attenuator theory by turning off the gain on the antenna?


Do I need one with a dial?


Also of note, I have an HD homerun dual atsc OTA antenna. I noticed signal strength when trying to pull in channels are high, but the Signal Quality and Symbol Quality are low. not sure what those really mean. However, that test was done using the low quality antenna, haven't tried the better ones yet.


Mike


----------



## arxaw

@ Mike,

I didn't know you were using an amplified antenna. At your distance from the towers, you absolutely do not want to use an amp! So, yes, turn off the amp.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Seems like you all are doing well without me. Ill be gone for the rest of the week, as well. Busy, busy.


----------



## gooeytarballs

Is there any listing of LOCAL (34237) outlets where one can find a good UHF External DTV antenna? Looking for 40-45 mile range.


gooey tarballs at g mail dot com


(put it all together to send me a direct response please.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gooeytarballs* /forum/post/15735468
> 
> 
> Is there any listing of LOCAL (34237) outlets where one can find a good UHF External DTV antenna? Looking for 40-45 mile range.
> 
> 
> gooey tarballs at g mail dot com
> 
> 
> (put it all together to send me a direct response please.



Sorry, I post here for the benefit of all who read the forum. I don't do emails.


Get this UHF only antenna from Radio Shack. $35


However, according to antennaweb.org your ZIP code has/will have several DTV stations in the VHF band.


For more info, including possible local brick & mortar dealers in your location, find the local thread for your area HERE>
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241


----------



## AngelJD

Hello, I live in Brooklyn 11209 and I am trying to find the best indoor antenna for my area. I am hoping to at least have the local stations. This is the results I saved from tv fool. (Post transition Digital only)


----------



## AngelJD

Hello,

My current digital reception is horrible and I hope that with a new antenna (as I'm currently using a very old one) that conditions will improve. I hope to find the best indoor antenna for two televisions that I own. I hope to pick up the local stations.

Also I am using an RCA converter box for both TVs.

I didn't know how to get the picture on the post so I place my TV fool results as an attachment.


----------



## Lord_Zath

So apparently the transition looks to be moved back to June. Dangit!


That means CBS (WBBM) is going to stay Channel 2 (VHF Lo). Does this mean that I should be looking at a different antenna choice?


TVFool reports attached - 1st is before transition, 2nd is after. Again, I'm only looking for CBS (WBBM), NBC (WMAQ), FOX (WFLD), and CW (WGN)


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath*  /forum/post/15737932
> 
> 
> That means CBS (WBBM) is going to stay Channel 2 (VHF Lo).



Not necessarily. The delay only changes the date when stations MUST stop broadcasting in analog. Stations still have the option to quit doing analog before the new mandatory cutoff date.


If I were you, I would check with WBBM to find out what their plans are before making any changes.


----------



## Lord_Zath

good point. I'm also considering just getting the decoder boxes now, as I have coupons that expire in a month, and just waiting till June to finish the setup. With luck, by then the pre-amps and antennas will be cheaper and/or newer models will be out...


----------



## pestocat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/15739873
> 
> 
> good point. I'm also considering just getting the decoder boxes now, as I have coupons that expire in a month, and just waiting till June to finish the setup. With luck, by then the pre-amps and antennas will be cheaper and/or newer models will be out...



Why are you waiting? You need to make the transition now. You need to make sure your antenna and everything is working. Get all the bugs fixed. Also the stations in your area may change earlier than June 12.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/15739815
> 
> 
> Not necessarily. The delay only changes the date when stations MUST stop broadcasting in analog. Stations still have the option to quit doing analog before the new mandatory cutoff date.
> 
> 
> If I were you, I would check with WBBM to find out what their plans are before making any changes.



They would be moving to channel 12. There are two analog 12's interfering, and they have no plans of moving until those channels turn off.


----------



## win.roulette

I thought this simple slim metal loop amplified RE & Loop might be pretty good. It is. It comes with a 6ft detachable coax cable and a wall wart for power. Build quality is good. One special feature is dual 75 ohm coax outs on the back, not switched. They are both active, so you can use it with 2 devices at once, like a VCR and TV, or Computer Tuner Card and TV, etc. Its all black design is low key. I dont know whether the knob on front is for amp level or fine tuning, Ill look into that. One other note, there is no LED power on indicator light. Channel Master also has similar looking models, 4010 and 4020, both unamped with the basic model 4010 not having the fine tuning knob. They are stocked at my local Tru Value, I know the owner pretty well, Ill see if I can take them home for a quick test run.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/15739873
> 
> 
> good point. I'm also considering just getting the decoder boxes now, as I have coupons that expire in a month, and just waiting till June to finish the setup. With luck, by then the pre-amps and antennas will be cheaper and/or newer models will be out...



It's doubtful antenna equipment will be any cheaper by June. And with antennas, newer is often not any better.


----------



## Lord_Zath

Good points. Should I also seize the opportunity to replace the splitters that came w/my house w/something from Monoprice (four-way splitters are under $4 each there)


----------



## PanamaMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/15728477
> 
> 
> If the tuner is overloaded, tuner sensitivity will decrease and the signal meter will actually show less signal than if the overload wasn't present. You can try an attenuator from Rat Shack and return it if no help.
> 
> 
> Rabbit Ear/Loop antennas vary widely in performance. And although purely anectodal, _the specific one I linked to_ has worked very well for me on TV & FM in several instances. It is also rated highly in previous posts earlier in this thread. It's definitely worth a try since it's only 12 bucks and you can get one when you get an attenuator at rat shack.



O.K., I tried an el cheapo attenuator included with my HDHomerun and it did the trick as far as reduce Signal Strength. I was getting in the high 90's to 100%.


However, it didn't do anything for my Signal Quality, which was in the 60's to 70's on good channels but dropped to the 50's. I guess it's not an overdriven problem. I even tried taking the antenna outside, and receptions is pretty much the same.


Anyone knows what affects signal quality?



Regards,


Mike


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PanamaMike* /forum/post/15742830
> 
> 
> O.K., I tried an el cheapo attenuator included with my HDHomerun and it did the trick as far as reduce Signal Strength. I was getting in the high 90's to 100%.
> 
> 
> However, it didn't do anything for my Signal Quality, which was in the 60's to 70's on good channels but dropped to the 50's. I guess it's not an overdriven problem. I even tried taking the antenna outside, and receptions is pretty much the same.
> 
> 
> Anyone knows what affects signal quality?
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Mike



I have an attic mount antenna and use an APEX 502 converter box for test purposes. The APEX includes a signal strength and signal quality meter. SQ drops from 100% under three conditions: the antenna is too close to the roof or rafters; antenna is close to electrical wiring; or signal strength is close to drop out. Multipath could potentially alter signal quality but I do not have that issue. Do you have ghosting in your analog channels?


----------



## PanamaMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/15743474
> 
> 
> I have an attic mount antenna and use an APEX 502 converter box for test purposes. The APEX includes a signal strength and signal quality meter. SQ drops from 100% under three conditions: the antenna is too close to the roof or rafters; antenna is close to electrical wiring; or signal strength is close to drop out. Multipath could potentially alter signal quality but I do not have that issue. Do you have ghosting in your analog channels?



I don't know that I pick up analog channels. The SD channels don't have ghosting. Multipath is the only thing I can't verify or test.


How about hills? In my area there are a number of hills between me an the towers. However, they aren't directly in front of me.


Regards,


Mike


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PanamaMike* /forum/post/15742830
> 
> 
> Anyone knows what affects signal quality?



I would think that Multipath is your most likely problem especially that close to the source. If I remember correctly, you had the best results with the UFO antenna which is a log periodic. You might try a Silver Sensor or a Terk HDTVi since they are both unamplified. Even if you turn off the amplifier in some antennas, it may still be affecting your reception.


Have you tried more than one DTV tuner? Some of them handle multipath better than others.


----------



## IDRick

Mike,


I see you are using an HDhomerun so all of your received channels would be digital. Can you connect your antenna directly to a device with an analog tuner (dvd recorder, vcr, tv) and quickly test for ghosting on analog stations? Hills, tall buildings, etc are conducive to multipath signals. However, newer tuners are less susceptible to issues with multipath. The zenith dtt901 converter box has an excellent tuner and works well in a high multipath environment. Perhaps you could borrow one from a neighbor/family member and test in your environment or get a coupon and buy one?


HTH


Rick


----------



## PanamaMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/15745242
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> 
> I see you are using an HDhomerun so all of your received channels would be digital. Can you connect your antenna directly to a device with an analog tuner (dvd recorder, vcr, tv) and quickly test for ghosting on analog stations? Hills, tall buildings, etc are conducive to multipath signals. However, newer tuners are less susceptible to issues with multipath. The zenith dtt901 converter box has an excellent tuner and works well in a high multipath environment. Perhaps you could borrow one from a neighbor/family member and test in your environment or get a coupon and buy one?
> 
> 
> HTH
> 
> 
> Rick



I can give that a try.


----------



## OTA1954




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14176948
> 
> *Radio Shack RS 15-1892 - The UFO*
> 
> 
> *aka The Magic Mushroom, The Starship Enterprise, The Frisbee*
> 
> 
> 
> This thing is GREAT! The geek factor is high on this one! LOL! Its freakin sweet! Its like a Smart Antenna without the tuner control interface.
> 
> 
> I bought this one used....and it came with everthing but the instructions. Undaunted, i hooked it up, and found that I could set the channels and move the rotating antenna within the disc and set the positions and gain, pretty intuitively. I later downloaded and printed instructions in order to write this mini review. This one will be longer than others. Although I only have basically 2 different tower locations, this thing rocked, and would be 10 times more useful if I had more tower directions. Non the less, it was useful at my location....and performed excellently. This one was too close to call really with DB2 unamped, RS DA-5200, and the amped RCA ANT1500. Its got a nice backlit LCD readout for the Channel #, Direction #(kinda arbitrary), and Gain Level #. You can choose between 3 gain levels, 1-2-3, or Low-Medium-High, corresponding (according to the manual) to 13db Min, 18db Min, and 22db Min amplifier levels. I tried this out but ended up setting all my channels to high gain for no particular reason other than "let's go full blast...Warp Speed!" There are 12 selectable positions for the antenna within its disc. There are Plus and Minus buttons on the remote which change the gain level. There are also Left and Right arrow buttons that change the direction of the antenna within its disc. Additionally, there is a press and hold button to turn off the LED display backlight, and a number pad to input channels. The remote is pretty small, but fairly simple to operate. All the buttons are the same size, and its not backlit, and its kind of hard to read...but the layout is simple enough, and the buttons large enough to operate. There is one more large button on the remote with the label Store, for storing a group of settings for an individual channel once you have it set up in the right direction and gain for best signal on that particular channel. One thing to note is that when the antenna moves, the motor is audible, but not obnoxiously loud. Kinda reassuring actually, you can hear that its working. On the back there is a 75ohm coax output hookup and an Aux input, and a switch to choose between the antenna and the Aux input....plus the power input, comes with wall wart and 6ft of detachable coax, plus remote, and guide booklet. It has 2 telescoping Rabbit Ears that are adjustable but limited in motion by the disc. I didnt really test them out....nor any of the other units really. They are for VHF reception. This unit does not have an FM Trap, and can be used as an FM antenna via its Rabbit Ears. The disc measures slightly over 12", its a pretty large antenna. There are Left Right Arrow buttons for changing the antenna position within the disc, and Plus and Minus buttons for adjusting the gain on the front of the antenna left and right of the LCD info panel, plus the push and hold button for turning off the LCD backlight.
> 
> 
> Performance.
> 
> 
> I only tested this unit on top of the Oppo 970 DVD player, it didnt make it to the North corner window like the RS Single Bow Tie and the amped RCA ANT1500 and some others did. It worked pretty good, from my original positioning. But later, after I figured out the remote and operation, I moved it some, but still on top of the Oppo to optimize its performance. I found that all my Charleston channels that are clustered tightly to the North East at 45 miles worked best on postion 8 and slightly worse on postion 7 and 9....and my alternate PBS station at 23 miles SW worked best at position 1 or 12....I probably could have centered its performance on one or the other by twisting the unit slightly clockwise or counter clockwise. With a little tweaking, I had this thing running the board on all my channels, but it seemed that the signal strength may have been a little less than the RS DA-5200. My Vizio GV42LF LCD doesnt have signal strength bars....that is why I havent been reporting them.
> 
> 
> How to set the antenna for a channel?
> 
> 
> This is how I did it. I first changed to the desired channel on the Vizio TV. Then I entered the corresponding channel # on the remote which was then indicated on The UFO's LCD screen, in order to set the antenna direction and gain settings to maximize its performance on that channel. Then I moved the antenna direction with the Left and Right Arrows all the way from position 1 thru 12, it became obvious when the reception locked on. Lets say that channel 8 and 7 seemed like the best candidates from the quick run thru the positions. Then I moved up to 9 to check, and it still worked but with pixelation and dropouts. Back to 8 then on to 7 then 6...oops getting worse again. A/B 7 and 8, physically twist or move the unit if you need to, and there you have it. Position 8. Then check the gain level. Boom you are finished. Push and hold the store button, the info on the panel starts blinking, then press the store button again, and its set. You may have to adjust the gain earlier, if you are overloading your tuner. I cant comment on the effectiveness of the gain adjustment.
> 
> 
> None the less...
> 
> 
> Pretty geekin' sweet! Beam me up Scotty!
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a link to the UFO on Radio Shacks Website, where you can read user reviews and link to the manual in pdf format.
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/sm-buy-the...i-2131034.html
> 
> *eidt: The manual states that there are 99 channel presets available, Ch. 0-99.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide
> 
> 
> Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof
> 
> DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof
> 
> RS 1880
> 
> RCA ANT1500 amped
> 
> RS DA-5200
> *RS 15-1892 UFO*
> 
> DB2 unamped indoors
> 
> Classic Single Bow Tie
> 
> Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors
> 
> Winegard SS-3000
> 
> RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)
> 
> Channel Master 4030
> 
> Philips MANT940
> 
> My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications.... amped
> 
> RS 1868 Delta
> 
> RCA ANT1020
> 
> RCA ANT1500
> 
> Philips MANT 510
> 
> My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications
> 
> RS 1870



Where does the Terk HDTVA fall in the line-up? it was in there originally, but now is gone?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

See front page.....for the latest up to date info.


----------



## PanamaMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/15745242
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> 
> I see you are using an HDhomerun so all of your received channels would be digital. Can you connect your antenna directly to a device with an analog tuner (dvd recorder, vcr, tv) and quickly test for ghosting on analog stations? Hills, tall buildings, etc are conducive to multipath signals. However, newer tuners are less susceptible to issues with multipath. The zenith dtt901 converter box has an excellent tuner and works well in a high multipath environment. Perhaps you could borrow one from a neighbor/family member and test in your environment or get a coupon and buy one?
> 
> 
> HTH
> 
> 
> Rick




As luck would have it, I have an old VCR I pulled out and plugged in. After tuning the channels volia, there it was, ghosting.


With best picture or worst, I can see the ghosting. What do I do?


Mike


----------



## Lord_Zath

So I checked out my attic today and I have no electrical outlet! There's just a lightbulb/lightswitch combo and that's it. Any thoughts? I seem to remember seeing a lightbulb socket adapter that converts a socket into an electrical outlet. (such as http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-004-01...3893405&sr=8-1 ) or am I able to wire in an outlet from the switch box? I'm not much of an electrician...


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/15749930
> 
> 
> So I checked out my attic today and I have no electrical outlet!



Are you thinking that you need an outlet for a preamp? If so, you don't. The preamp comes with a power injector that you can connect near the TV. It will send power to the preamp via the coax cable.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PanamaMike* /forum/post/15748660
> 
> 
> As luck would have it, I have an old VCR I pulled out and plugged in. After tuning the channels volia, there it was, ghosting.
> 
> 
> With best picture or worst, I can see the ghosting. What do I do?
> 
> 
> Mike



Well, you now have a tool for identifying multipath (your antenna, the vcr, and a tv). Multipath will vary by location. The situation may be much better in your attic or out on the roof. You'll have to be creative in testing locations... How close are you to the Austin towers? You could try the winegard 7210 antenna (winegard's best "ghostbuster" antenna). Directional antennas are less susceptible to multipath than two bay or four bay antennas. Don't really know your situation so it is hard to advise. Tv tuners are also an important tool. Newer generation tuners are less susceptible to multipath than the older tuners. The Zenith converter box is known for doing well in a high multipath situation. You could test it's performance in your location. It may help resolve issues.


----------



## Lord_Zath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/15750125
> 
> 
> Are you thinking that you need an outlet for a preamp? If so, you don't. The preamp comes with a power injector that you can connect near the TV. It will send power to the preamp via the coax cable.



Right, but that would mean I'd need to have at least one splitter with powerpass capability, right?


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/15752068
> 
> 
> Right, but that would mean I'd need to have at least one splitter with powerpass capability, right?



If you're planning to split the signal before it reaches the TV, then yes.


----------



## Lord_Zath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/15753130
> 
> 
> If you're planning to split the signal before it reaches the TV, then yes.



And if that's the case, then I could put the amp on the cable jack that has the power pass on the splitter?


In other words TV -> preamp -> cable jack on wall -> splitter -> antenna


Wouldn't this make the preamp and overall signal strength less effective than having the preamp right next to the antenna?


----------



## magna2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AngelJD* /forum/post/15736130
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> My current digital reception is horrible and I hope that with a new antenna (as I'm currently using a very old one) that conditions will improve. I hope to find the best indoor antenna for two televisions that I own. I hope to pick up the local stations.
> 
> Also I am using an RCA converter box for both TVs.
> 
> I didn't know how to get the picture on the post so I place my TV fool results as an attachment.



AngelJD,


I would recommend the Terk HDTVa for your area. I've installed one for a friend that lives at 39 St/9 St. The Terk HDTVa did a magnificent job of filtering out multi-paths. Because of your proximity to the antenna towers, you can probably get away with using a Terk HDTVi - the non-amplified version. You may need to play around with the antenna at first to see which positioning works best for your specific situation.


----------



## PanamaMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/15750452
> 
> 
> Well, you now have a tool for identifying multipath (your antenna, the vcr, and a tv). Multipath will vary by location. The situation may be much better in your attic or out on the roof. You'll have to be creative in testing locations... How close are you to the Austin towers? You could try the winegard 7210 antenna (winegard's best "ghostbuster" antenna). Directional antennas are less susceptible to multipath than two bay or four bay antennas. Don't really know your situation so it is hard to advise. Tv tuners are also an important tool. Newer generation tuners are less susceptible to multipath than the older tuners. The Zenith converter box is known for doing well in a high multipath situation. You could test it's performance in your location. It may help resolve issues.



Argh. I don't know how well I'll be able to do this. Not to mention analog is supposed to go away soon.


I'm a mere 3 miles away from the main towers. What bugs me, is depending on the day the signal quality varies. Even when the days are clear good. I've been using directional antennas. Silver Sensor, DA-5200 and UFO.


Mike


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/15753602
> 
> 
> And if that's the case, then I could put the amp on the cable jack that has the power pass on the splitter?
> 
> 
> In other words TV -> preamp -> cable jack on wall -> splitter -> antenna
> 
> 
> Wouldn't this make the preamp and overall signal strength less effective than having the preamp right next to the antenna?



The power injector and preamp are two separate pieces. You would indeed want the preamp within a few feet of the antenna, but the power injector can be closer to the TV, so to use your example, something like this:


TV -> power injector -> cable jack on wall -> splitter -> preamp -> antenna


----------



## Lord_Zath

ahh got it!


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *golinux* /forum/post/14063872
> 
> 
> I agree. I am in a heavily wooded area (and in a hollow to boot) about 26 miles from the towers. My location has been described as a "worst case scenario".
> 
> 
> I have been using a DB2 with a 22db amp in an indoor window for several years. Since there is a VHF station, I have rabbit ears and the DB2 hooked to a signal combiner before going to the amp. This setup picks up all the local stations in analog and also with the Zenith DTT900 converter box. On two of the weaker stations there is some minor dropout if the winds are heavy but nothing I can't live with.



Signal combiner -- is this a splitter for coax cables or something else?


I also have a DB2 bowtie antenna, but I can't get low digital channels like 7. Analog channel 7 is fine, but 2 and 4 had many dots and sometime unwatchable. I am under almost 20 miles from most of the transmitters and 323-324 degrees heading on compass.


----------



## deltaguy

Television Signal Combiner is item 15-1297 at Radio Shack, 8 bucks. I use one. Click on the product for a proper picture.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/15759030
> 
> 
> Signal combiner -- is this a splitter for coax cables or something else?
> 
> 
> I also have a DB2 bowtie antenna, but I can't get low digital channels like 7. Analog channel 7 is fine, but 2 and 4 had many dots and sometime unwatchable. I am under almost 20 miles from most of the transmitters and 323-324 degrees heading on compass.



a signal combiner would take the cable of a UHF only antenna and the cable from a VHF only antenna and combine them into one cable


you have to determine the real channel number that digital channel 7 is. goto tvfool.com


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/15759190
> 
> 
> Television Signal Combiner is item 15-1297 at Radio Shack, 8 bucks. I use one. Click on the product for a proper picture.



Oh, I think I have a really old one somewhere (have to find it), but how do I connect my bowtie antenna and rabbit ears (one of these: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...JL._SS500_.jpg ) with it?


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/15759210
> 
> 
> a signal combiner would take the cable of a UHF only antenna and the cable from a VHF only antenna and combine them into one cable
> 
> 
> you have to determine the real channel number that digital channel 7 is. goto tvfool.com



Right now, it is 53 (before the switch in June 2009) but KABC did a digital 7 and analog shutdown a few days ago after 2 AM PST for 15 minutes. I couldn't get their digital 7 at all. Its digital channel 53 was fine, but weak (50-60% on good days, but 30-40% on rain storm days like last night).


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/15759223
> 
> 
> Oh, I think I have a really old one somewhere (have to find it), but how do I connect my bowtie antenna and rabbit ears (one of these: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...JL._SS500_.jpg ) with it?



that link was bad


typically a modern combiner has a 75 ohm coax output and a 300 ohm (two screws) input for UHF and either the same or 75 ohm coax input for VHF


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/15759238
> 
> 
> Right now, it is 53 (before the switch in June 2009) but KABC did a digital 7 and analog shutdown a few days ago after 2 AM PST for 15 minutes. I couldn't get their digital 7 at all. Its digital channel 53 was fine, but weak (50-60% on good days, but 30-40% on rain storm days like last night).



goto tvfool.com it will give you an idea of the type and quality of antenna you will need both before and after the transition (when ever that might be)


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/15759030
> 
> 
> Signal combiner -- is this a splitter for coax cables or something else?



A signal combiner merges the signals from two antennas (typically one VHF and one UHF) into one cable. Some people use splitters for this purpose, but this practice increases signal loss and generally ends up creating multipath problems. The common practice is to use a UHF/VHF Band Separator/Combiner (UVSJ) like either of the following:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ 
http://www.summitsource.com/uhfvhf-b...sj-p-6976.html


----------



## deltaguy

UVSJ is the most common way to combine signals now, but if you like your old pair of rabbit ears and like the slide-on capability of their adaptor, rather than having to screw on coax, the old way still works provided your television can handle the size of the slide-on combiner. Adding a UHF antenna, like the Mant-510, with a coax lead to rabbit ears and a signal combiner can be accomplished with a UHF/VHF/FM Matching Transformer for the coax lead, yielding two flat wire leads for the UHF. Yes, I realize the 510 is both VHF & UHF, but I think the transformer came with that antenna. Any UHF antenna with a coax lead can be made flat wire friendly for old school four-screw signal combiners. I don't know the signal loss numbers.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/15759858
> 
> 
> UVSJ is the most common way to combine signals now, but if you like your old pair of rabbit ears and like the slide-on capability of their adaptor, rather than having to screw on coax, the old way still works provided your television can handle the size of the slide-on combiner. Adding a UHF antenna, like the Mant-510, with a coax lead to rabbit ears and a signal combiner can be accomplished with a UHF/VHF/FM Matching Transformer for the coax lead, yielding two flat wire leads for the UHF. Yes, I realize the 510 is both VHF & UHF, but I think the transformer came with that antenna. Any UHF antenna with a coax lead can be made flat wire friendly for old school four-screw signal combiners. I don't know the signal loss numbers.



Actually, it's for my computer's HDTV tuner cards. They only have coax cable inputs. I will look at UHF/VHF/FM Matching Transformer.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/15759437
> 
> 
> that link was bad



How weird, DId the forum jack up my URL? ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HZZ1Q01JL._SS500_.jpg


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/15759457
> 
> 
> goto tvfool.com it will give you an idea of the type and quality of antenna you will need both before and after the transition (when ever that might be)


 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d%3df322a2e7f7 


With my bowtie antenna and analog, channels 2 and 4 are not clear, and mostly unwatchable so I have to use basic rabbit ears (e.g., Terk and those that come with old CRT TVs) to turn and stuff to adjust. For digital, KLCS is very low like 20-30% signal strength. KABC is 50-60% on good days but can go down to 20-30% like last night with the rain storm. Last Sunday's Super Bowl was horrible as KNBC kept dropping and it was nice and clear outside! I checked the weather for Mt. Wilson and saw nothing odd (e.g., no winds). My antennae are upstair in a room. The antenna face the wall but the angle of the transmitters because of these new windows types that seem to degrade signal and keep out heat when closed (darn remodelling).


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PanamaMike* /forum/post/15756305
> 
> 
> Argh. I don't know how well I'll be able to do this. Not to mention analog is supposed to go away soon.
> 
> 
> I'm a mere 3 miles away from the main towers. What bugs me, is depending on the day the signal quality varies. Even when the days are clear good. I've been using directional antennas. Silver Sensor, DA-5200 and UFO.
> 
> 
> Mike



Now that you have identified the presence of excessive multipath, your best defense is a highly directional antenna to help combat those reflected signals. Since you don't have any local VHF's, I would try arxaw's recommendation of the $35.00 RS antenna.(You can take it back if it doesn't help) The Winegard ghost killer is very good for multipath, but not sure if you have room for something that large.


If the new antenna doesn't help, the Zenith CECB that ID Rick suggested would be an excellent next step. It has worked wonders for me in a high multipath/strong signal environment.


You shouln't need to worry about overload as long as no amplification is used. Overload shouldn't be a problem unless you are a mile or less from the transmitters.


Please keep us posted with your results.


----------



## Flak

Not sure where to go with this so I'll just post here again. I got the eagle aspen (db2 clone). In the basement hooked up to the tv with about 4ft of cable I get what I believe to be every local digital channel except channel 10, which I do get analog. Well still in the basement if I try a longer cable to try different positions I no longer receive any reception (not even analog).


I moved the antenna upstairs (2nd floor) and pointed out a bedroom window towards what I believe to be the general direction of the towers. The cable run is about 50 or 75ft to a splitter which then runs another 25ft to 50ft per tv hooked up to the spliter. With it in this location I now get what I think is every digital channel except channel 6 and ever so often some breakup/freezing, I do get channel 6 in analog. I have tried removing the splitter and just combining the cable to one tv, this didn't seem to make a difference.


Is this a situation where a pre-amp or amplifier would help? If so any suggestions (no job right now so cheap is good at the moment)?



Thanks


----------



## EscapeVelocity

An amplifier may be just the ticket. Archer/Radio Shack amplifiers on ebay are nicely priced.


But post up your TVFool so that a better judgement can be made on your situation.


----------



## Flak

Here it is from a previous post in this thread:


post feb:


----------



## GSB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14194258
> 
> 
> Contacted Channel Master about getting a CM 4040, we'll see.



EscapeVelocity and all contributors, thanks for a FANTASTIC thread, and particularly for the first posts with photos, descriptions and comparisons. I've learned a great deal.


I currently have cable, but I'm keen to try OTA for pristine Hi-Def signals. I live in Vancouver, WA, 98663, just 10mi from the towers, though I live in a dip, surrounded by trees. According to tvfool.com, I'd need an attic-mounted antenna for most of the channels of interest, pointed in a single direction. I'd like to try an indoor antenna first, though.


Has anyone tried the Channel Master CM 4040 yet? Nobody seems to have mentioned it again since the above post in June of last year.


Gary


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Flak, with your antenna up high and the long length of coax run, you could probably use an amplifier and that might solve your channel 6 problem.


However is you take your antenna back down stairs, you could get a USVJ UHF/VHF signal combiner (for about $2) and a pair of Rabbit Ears like the Channel Master 4000 on the front page or the Philips MANT075 cheap and 6 ft of coax and probably do alright with Channel 10 (Real Channel 8).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

GSB, I havent tried that one yet. Maybe someone else has.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15779567
> 
> 
> An amplifier may be just the ticket. Archer/Radio Shack amplifiers on ebay are nicely priced.



Too noisy. Try Channel Master.


----------



## seatacboy

My parents live close to their local stations (8 miles line of sight) but also underneath an airport flight path. Their reception was marred by frequent aviation-related signal breakups with many indoor antennas.


The only antenna that's given them a reliable, breakup-free signal on their strong local stations is the Philips PHDTV1 Silver Sensor. Its extreme directionality enables it to tune out aviation-related multipath interference. They no longer have awkward signal breakup from their primary local stations.


EV, perhaps in your opening page you can mention that for folks afflicted with aviation-related interference, the Silver Sensor may be the antenna of choice.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

OK, Ill do that.....its not explicit that the tight directionality which is good for multipath is also good for aviation noise.


Note to self....I also want to address the discontinued Channel Master double bows, and recommend the DB2, DB4, etc over the new Channel Master 4220HD and 4221HD.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Fixed pic of MANT510.


Added comments to Petra Superpower 32db.


Added Radio Shack 1874 Budget and comments and integrated it into performance rankings.


Added comments to Channel Master 4220 and 4221 about the recent discontinuance of the American made versions.


Added comments to DB2.


Added comments to Godar Model 1 and Godar Model 3.


Updated list of owned and sold antennas.


Added comments to Silver Sensor Style antennas about interference and multipath.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/15759238
> 
> 
> Right now, it is 53 (before the switch in June 2009) but KABC did a digital 7 and analog shutdown a few days ago after 2 AM PST for 15 minutes. I couldn't get their digital 7 at all. Its digital channel 53 was fine, but weak (50-60% on good days, but 30-40% on rain storm days like last night).



The DB-2 (along with the rest of the DB-series) is not suitable for receiving channels 7 & 8 due to a rapid drop-off in frequency response/gain below channel 9.


For applications down through channel 7, select the ClearStream 1 instead if selecting an A-D product for indoor usage.


Steve


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/15793197
> 
> 
> The DB-2 (along with the rest of the DB-series) is not suitable for receiving channels 7 & 8 due to a rapid drop-off in frequency response/gain below channel 9.
> 
> 
> For applications down through channel 7, select the ClearStream 1 instead if selecting an A-D product for indoor usage.Steve



Just wondering. How come analog channel 7 is clear with a DB2 antenna for me? Channel 11 is not 100% clear (more like 90% -- can see some dots and blurriness).


As for ClearStream 1, is that the same size and weight as the DB2 one? I noticed its grid part looks like my DB2. Can I add that circular and ball thing over mine?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Phil some signals are so strong even a paper clip will pick them up clearly. That doesnt mean the paper clip is a good antenna for those frequencies.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15794345
> 
> 
> Phil some signals are so strong even a paper clip will pick them up clearly. That doesnt mean the paper clip is a good antenna for those frequencies.



Wait, if I can get KABC7 clearly on analog with the same antenna, why can't I get it digitally (not digital 53, but its digital 7 when KABC ran its 15 minutes test last week without its temporary analog shutdown)? That makes no sense. Are analog and digital on the same channel different? I don't know how the feeds work.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Was the test full power? Are the tuners you are using the same? Digital is an all or nothing prospect. You dont get fuzzier and fuzzier images. You get audio breakups and pixelation in a short window then nothing.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15796290
> 
> 
> Was the test full power? Are the tuners you are using the same? Digital is an all or nothing prospect. You dont get fuzzier and fuzzier images. You get audio breakups and pixelation in a short window then nothing.



If you mean full power from KABC's transmitter, I don't know. How can I find out? When they ran a test and I checked my feeds, I couldn't get ANY signal locks after two full scans. My HDTV tuner couldn't find KABC's digital channel (not 53 during the 15 minutes test). It was like not there or not reachable. Reading others' posts said they were able to get it. After KABC's completed its 15 minutes test, then I was able to get the old digital 53. Digital 7 doesn't work. Analog 7 (not during the test) was fine and clear.


You can see the conversations in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post15731775 (L.A. thread). I even took screen captures.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

My guess is that the digital test was not at full transmitting power. Call the station to find out.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15796474
> 
> 
> My guess is that the digital test was not at full transmitting power. Call the station to find out.



I will e-mail KABC from its Web site since I cannot use a telephone (have speech and hearing impediments). Also, I will ask in AVS' L.A. forum thread to see if anyone knows the answer. Thanks.


According to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post15731951 ... his/her signal meter held at 90% the entire time during the test. Usually, it's 50-60%. It sounds like full power to me. What do you think?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Is it usually 50% at Real Channel 53, but 90% at Real Channel 7 (digital test)? If so, he could have a good VHF Antenna that is lacking on UHF.


You are in the right place for answers on your local thread at AVSforum though.



Anyways, the DB2 as noted is poor on the low side of VHF Hi. You could get a pair of Rabbit Ears sans loop (like the Terk TV-1 or Channel Master 4000 on the front page of this thread) and a UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner and add Rabbit Ears to your DB2 for VHF reception. Golinux did this and has pictures of his setup about on page 6 of this thread.


Here it is.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post14126918


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15796680
> 
> 
> Is it usually 50% at Real Channel 53, but 90% at Real Channel 7 (digital test)? If so, he could have a good VHF Antenna that is lacking on UHF.
> 
> 
> You are in the right place for answers on your local thread at AVSforum though.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, the DB2 as noted is poor on the low side of VHF Hi. You could get a pair of Rabbit Ears sans loop (like the Terk TV-1 or Channel Master 4000 on the front page of this thread) and a UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner and add Rabbit Ears to your DB2 for VHF reception. Golinux did this and has pictures of his setup about on page 6 of this thread.
> 
> 
> Here it is.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post14126918



Dang nice for a hack/mod. I wish I was a handy man (physically disabled). I wonder where he puts his rabbit ears. Do you have to adjust the rabbit ears all the time? I had to do that when I used rabbit ears. I don't do that for bowtie antenna since I can face the mountains (North -- can't do NW because of the new coated window that lower my signal strengths to the bowtie antenna!).


Currently, I have an unused Terk rabbit ear ( http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technolog...d_bxgy_e_img_b -- not sure if it is the same model). I will have to get a UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner though. Is it me or do local retail stores (e.g., Best Buy, Radio Shack, Circuit City, Fry's Electronics) not carry this combiner?


I do already have a coax splitter, but it only has ONE input and four outputs (a 13 years old CRT TV, two HDTV tuner cards, and a VCR).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think radio shack has a version . But its expensive.


Here is one at Summit Source brand JVI for $1.59 plus shipping.


Here is one at Solid Signal brand Holland for $3.99 plus shipping.


The Terk TV-1 should work well with the combiner. I doubt you will have to move it around much once you find a good spot for it. You only have a few channels on VHF after the transition in LA.



golinux has his rabbit ears mounted on the pole below the DB2.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15797079
> 
> 
> I think radio shack has a version . But its expensive.
> 
> 
> Here is one at Summit Source brand JVI for $1.59 plus shipping.
> 
> 
> Here is one at Solid Signal brand Holland for $3.99 plus shipping.
> 
> 
> The Terk TV-1 should work well with the combiner. I doubt you will have to move it around much once you find a good spot for it. You only have a few channels on VHF after the transition in LA.
> 
> 
> 
> golinux has his rabbit ears mounted on the pole below the DB2.



Ah, thanks. So no other local retail stores carry these combiners (hopefully, cheaper)? It would be faster and easier than mail order for me. And I can easily return it too if failed too. I will check out your RadioShack one (all local stores have it, and yes expensive!). I got an e-mail reply from Pico Macom if they had their combiners in local retail stores, and they said no.










Good point of adjusting the rabbit ears (also used another one on top of my old CRT TV before using Terk's) since I will have way less channels after 6/12/2009. When I used it a lot for analog, I had to adjust and turn it a lot for many channels even for the higher ones like KTTV11. KCBS2, KNBC4, KTLA5, etc. also required me to adjust, turn, etc. For digital, I couldn't get any good feeds so I bought this DB2 bowtie antenna which fixed most of the feed issues (recalled KTLA 5 had serious problems with it at first). This rabbit ear usage for digital was back in late 2005, so things might be better today.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Most of your stations are on and will be on UHF, and the DB2 is a very good solution for them....a few will be on VHF post transition, and the Rabbit Ears will be much better than the DB2 for those. Combining them with the appropriate UVSJ signal seperator/combiner will probably have you adjustment free once you tweak your antennas position.


How far are you from the tower clusters?


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15797245
> 
> 
> Most of your stations are on and will be on UHF, and the DB2 is a very good solution for them....a few will be on VHF post transition, and the Rabbit Ears will be much better than the DB2 for those. Combining them with the appropriate UVSJ signal seperator/combiner will probably have you adjustment free once you tweak your antennas position.
> 
> 
> How far are you from the tower clusters?



Most of them are under 20 miles in a NW direction. Please kindly see http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d%3df322a2e7f7 for the details.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah, KCAL and KABC will be on the low side of VHF Hi post trasition, and the Rabbit Ears should work well for those stong stations. You may not be able to get KFLA Ch. 8 or Ch. 6 though unless you work for it and may be spotty depending on environmental, seasonal, and atmospheric factors. Dont count on those 2 with Rabbit Ears.


----------



## holl_ands

Pico Macom "Tru-Spec" UVSJ has somewhat lower insertion loss spec:
http://yhst-18278607509093.stores.ya...pico-0389.html 

And is made right here in sunny San Diego.


Alternative source from the frozen East Coast:
http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp...&utm_campaign= 


Check carefully when ordering from on-line sources, many provide a substitute.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The DB2 should get you deep into the UHF channels...definitely into the Yellow and perhaps into the Red(but those are from a different direction (adjacent market/tower cluster).


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15798317
> 
> 
> Pico Macom "Tru-Spec" UVSJ has somewhat lower insertion loss spec:
> http://yhst-18278607509093.stores.ya...pico-0389.html
> 
> 
> Check carefully when ordering from other on-line sources, many provide a substitute.



Thanks. How about the one from RadioShack? Is that OK?


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15798309
> 
> 
> Yeah, KCAL and KABC will be on the low side of VHF Hi post trasition, and the Rabbit Ears should work well for those stong stations. You may not be able to get KFLA Ch. 8 or Ch. 6 though unless you work for it and may be spotty depending on environmental, seasonal, and atmospheric factors. Dont count on those 2 with Rabbit Ears.



I only care about the local English channels. Currently I only watch CBS, NBC, KTLA, ABC, KCAL9 (Lakers!), FOX, and PBS. Speaking of PBS, I forgot to mention that 58 is also low and has been like that since last late summer. I rarely watch it though.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15798322
> 
> 
> The DB2 should get you deep into the UHF channels...definitely into the Yellow and perhaps into the Red(but those are from a different direction (adjacent market/tower cluster).



Ah, I only care about the ones in green mainly: KABC, KNBC, KCBS, KTLA, KCAL (Go Lakers!), KTTV, and PBS (rarely though and KLCS has been low signal strength since summer 2008). KCOP13 (don't care now but nice to have just in case -- used to watch Star Trek on it!).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Oops...I missed 13, yes the Rabbit Ears should do you good for that channel as well.


The Pico Tru-Spec is hard to find. Holl_ands has been holding out on me!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Phil, that 4 way splitter is really cutting your signal thin. You may need an amplifier as well. Or you could try the Radio Shack 1892 UFO or the Petra SuperPower 32db(which is a lot cheaper).


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15805192
> 
> 
> Phil, that 4 way splitter is really cutting your signal thin.



It happens with two way splitters and no splitters. I will try again without the splitter to confirm since that was many months ago.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Note that many computer ATSC tuners are inferior to tuners in todays TVs. And ATSC tuners from a few years ago are miles behind latest generation ATSC tuners (like the 6th generation LG tuner in the DTT901 coupon eligible converter box.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15808194
> 
> 
> Note that many computer ATSC tuners are inferior to tuners in todays TVs. And ATSC tuners from a few years ago are miles behind latest generation ATSC tuners (like the 6th generation LG tuner in the DTT901 coupon eligible converter box.



I guess my two HDTV tuners are outdated since I got them in late 2005. http://www.bbti.us/products_air2pc_atsc_pci.htm for the specifications.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im not familiar with that one. You could check in the Computer or PC Home Theatre section of this huge AVSforum.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Anyways, its not necessarily the source of your problem or something that cant be overcome. Just something to be cognizant of....part of the whole system.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/15808353
> 
> 
> I guess my two HDTV tuners are outdated since I got them in late 2005. http://www.bbti.us/products_air2pc_atsc_pci.htm for the specifications.



I'm afraid so. Those first generation Air2PC cards do terribly in any environment with significant multipath.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/15809341
> 
> 
> I'm afraid so. Those first generation Air2PC cards do terribly in any environment with significant multipath.



So the only possibilities to resolve this issue:

1. Get new HDTV tuner cards with newer generations.

2. Or get a better antenna and location


Am I correct?


Maybe that explains why downstair's Zeinth DTV converter box isn't so bad.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think the HDTV tuner cards are the better upgrade.....and you might as well get a UVSJ(its cheap) since you already have the Terk TV-1 Rabbit Ears for improved VHF reception.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15809681
> 
> 
> I think the HDTV tuner cards are the better upgrade.....and you might as well get a UVSJ since you already have the Terk TV-1 Rabbit Ears for improved VHF reception.



Do you know what the best HDTV tuner cards for cheap? Any specific to look for for better generations?


As for Terk TV-1 Rabbit Ears, I am going to try it without the bowtie antenna and see how it is first compared to late last summer.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

It doesnt look like you have any digital channels on VHF yet, not until the analog shutdown....so no opportunity to try the Terk TV-1 yet.


Im not very knowlegable about PC HDTV tuner cards. But as I mentioned earlier, the AVSforum here has a PC HomeTheater subsection, and you will probably get good advice there for inexpensive solutions.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15809925
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like you have any digital channels on VHF yet, not until the analog shutdown....so no opportunity to try the Terk TV-1 yet.



Good point. I keep forgetting about that. I will have to wait for one of them to do tests like last week or 6/12/2009.







I will just concentrate getting my KABC's digital 53 feeds to be good. Grr.


----------



## sharam

I have comcast hd in Miami, but wanted to hook up an indoor antenna for the local OTAs in hd so I could get some use out of my tv picture in picture from time to time. With an old RS 15-1864 (loop and ears)antenna, I get 4 of the 13 auto scanned HD channels to show a viewable signal strength (38, 54, 71 and 93 approx). Would an amplified indoor antenna like the wineguard 3000 improve my number of channels and quality? I've read that some say to avoid amplified ones but not sure why. Nearly all the HD signals are between 20-25 miles away, and on about the same degree heading so I'm guessing unidirectional is sufficient.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/15808353
> 
> 
> I guess my two HDTV tuners are outdated since I got them in late 2005. http://www.bbti.us/products_air2pc_atsc_pci.htm for the specifications.



The Air2PC uses the 2004 vintage Broadcom BCM3510 ATSC Demodulator,

which barely has enough equalizer capability. The new 5th and 6th Gen

chips are much better against multipath and the tuners are more sensitive.


To maintain compatibility with your TSReader, scroll down to "ATSC" section:
http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/hardware.html 


Hauppauge Devices with the "q" ending also process clear QAM in case

you decide to get Basic Cable. Higher numbers are newest.

Most of the others appear to be soooooo last year.....


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15810458
> 
> 
> The Air2PC uses the 2004 vintage Broadcom BCM3510 ATSC Demodulator,
> 
> which barely has enough equalizer capability. The new 5th and 6th Gen
> 
> chips are much better against multipath and the tuners are more sensitive.
> 
> 
> To maintain compatibility with your TSReader, scroll down to "ATSC" section:
> http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/hardware.html
> 
> 
> Hauppauge Devices with the "q" ending also process clear QAM in case
> 
> you decide to get Basic Cable. Higher numbers are newest.
> 
> Most of the others appear to be soooooo last year.....



Great... So even if with better antennae and location, this still won't work? How about passthrough device/box between the tuners and antennae? I wonder what the folks' Zeinth DTV converter boxes use downstair. I know it was manufactured in April 2008 and bought during Memorial Day 2008 weekend.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/15810605
> 
> 
> Great... So even if with better antennae and location, this still won't work? How about passthrough device/box between the tuners and antennae? I wonder what the folks' Zeinth DTV converter boxes use downstair. I know it was manufactured in April 2008 and bought during Memorial Day 2008 weekend.



Due to the very tough performance spec, ALL coupon eligible converter boxes

use the latest, very high performance, 6th Gen chips. The Air2PC is 3rd Gen.


I presume the "passthrough device/box" is an RF Signal Splitter???

If so, it causes a 4 dB loss...which is very significant.

Separate antennas would eliminate this loss.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15810974
> 
> 
> Due to the very tough performance spec, ALL coupon eligible converter boxes
> 
> use the latest, very high performance, 6th Gen chips. The Air2PC is 3rd Gen.
> 
> 
> I presume the "passthrough device/box" is an RF Signal Splitter???
> 
> If so, it causes a 4 dB loss...which is very significant.
> 
> Separate antennas would eliminate this loss.



No device/box right now. It's a coax splitter: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062051 I bought this back in end of 2008. I don't use the last port (two HDTV tuners for digital and VCR to analog). Even a two port splitter had the same problem.


----------



## holl_ands

A 4-Way RF Splitter has about 8 dB loss on each port and 2-Way is about 4 dB.


Have you tried WITHOUT the splitter??? And retry different antenna locations.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15817505
> 
> 
> A 4-Way RF Splitter has about 8 dB loss on each port and 2-Way is about 4 dB.
> 
> 
> Have you tried WITHOUT the splitter??? And retry different antenna locations.



Yes, I have in the past but I had to use a short extension coax cable since it was too short or else the antenna had to be on the desk height which is not enough (currently sitting on a bookshelf on top of an old wooden 3.5" disks holder).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

For your information phil, in case you dont know 3db down is a halving of the signal strength.


So split 2 ways is 3db down, and 3 is about 6db and 4 is about 9db, and so on and so forth. Very serious signal strength degradation.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15817746
> 
> 
> For your information phil, in case you dont know 3db down is a halving of the signal strength.
> 
> 
> So one split is 3db down, and 3 is about 6db and 4 is about 9db. Very serious signal strength degradation.



Wow, thanks for the info. I didn't know it was that much. I thought it was percentage wise. Not sure if I can move antenna (it will have to be lower than where it is like onto my table!). I will keep that in mind when I get a new antenna for 6/12/2009.


So how do people split antenna to multiple TVs, recorders, etc. without major signal losses? Separate antennae? Preamp?


I am watching Sarah Connor's Chronicle with 60-70% (used to be close to 100% in the original location -- farther from the wall). I have had three one seconds pauses so far within 51 minutes. No pixellations or corruptions. Hmm. I might need to tweak some more.


--


I am watching Dollhouse recording, and so far no pauses or any glitches.


----------



## holl_ands

Preamps of course....or an amplified indoor antenna.....or separate antennas.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15819340
> 
> 
> Preamps of course....or an amplified indoor antenna.....or separate antennas.



Newbie question: Are all preamp devices and antennae need electrity?


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/15818496
> 
> 
> So how do people split antenna to multiple TVs, recorders, etc. without major signal losses? Separate antennae? Preamp?



distribution amps which are AC powered can give 2, 4, 6 or 8 outputs depending on model. can be placed near antenna cable entry into the house if you split your cables there near your equipment if you split there.


----------



## kedirekin

Preamps need electricity. Stand-alone preamps for use on an outdoor antenna come with a power injector then sends the needed power up to the preamp through the antenna download (coax).


You can buy unpowered antennas (like the venerable rabbit ears) or powered antennas. A powered antenna is really just a regular antenna and an amplifier built into the same box. Many powered antennas have really poor (noisy) amplifiers and your better off with a cheaper unpowered antenna.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kedirekin* /forum/post/15821627
> 
> 
> Preamps need electricity. Stand-alone preamps for use on an outdoor antenna come with a power injector then sends the needed power up to the preamp through the antenna download (coax).
> 
> 
> You can buy unpowered antennas (like the venerable rabbit ears) or powered antennas. A powered antenna is really just a regular antenna and an amplifier built into the same box. Many powered antennas have really poor (noisy) amplifiers and your better off with a cheaper unpowered antenna.



OK, I will keep that in mind when I buy a new antenna for 6/12/2009.


----------



## Lord_Zath

Question - my current setup is 7 different cable jacks in my house. These are connected to 2 splitters - the signal hits a 3-way splitter (-3db, -7.5db x2). The -3db line goes to a 4-way splitter (-7.5db each). I'm looking to get a CM7777 preamp, but while I'm at it, would it be a good idea to get an 8-way splitter?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think most of my stations are doing an analog shutdown on Feb 17th.


Even the PBS stations.


----------



## phildaant

Follow-up on my DB2 bowtie antenna feed issue. I moved my antenna AGAIN since I was having problems with digital KTLA 5 and 7 channels when I checked at around 7:30 PM PST, etc. Even missed part of the new HD Simpsons episode (ugh!). I noticed I had a room in my close on its high shelf (highest spot in my room). So I had to rewire my coax cables and move my bowtie antenna. I am getting much better signals than before (e.g., KABC is 70%!!). I didn't see any dropouts, but we'll see (no more please!). I hope I don't have to change it again! Even cooler is I get to hide my ugly bowtie antenna, but the cables are still ugly since they're all over place to my PC's two HDTV tuners and VCR (to the old CRT TV).


Note that I am still using the splitters, no combiners, no rabbit ears, etc. Also, I noticed analog channels for KCBS2, KNBC4, and KTLA5 are somewhat viewable now (not perfect clear).


Still can't get KLCS's digital channel but analog isn't bad. Bah, don't care for that one.


Speaking of The Simpsons' HD episode. Did anyone notice the music was really soft but the sound effects and voices were loud? This is noticeable in the introduction. I wonder if my 4.1 speaker is wacked or FOX is having issues?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Good for you phil!


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15848700
> 
> 
> Good for you phil!



It's funny that this is directly behind the big tree. Weird. So far, no problems on the stations I want.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I dont see you needing to upgrade the DB2, its about the best indoor solution you can get for UHF. You may need to get a USVJ to integrate the Terk TV-1 Rabbit Ears for 7, 9, and 13 digital eventually though. And you can always get a distribution amplifier to replace those splitters if need be....or just an amplifier to offset the splitter loses....if need be. You are in good shape, Id say.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15849099
> 
> 
> I dont see you needing to upgrade the DB2, its about the best indoor solution you can get for UHF. You may need to get a USVJ to integrate the Terk TV-1 Rabbit Ears for 7, 9, and 13 digital eventually though. And you can always get a distribution amplifier to replace those splitters if need be....or just an amplifier to offset the splitter loses....if need be. You are in good shape, Id say.



Do those combiners also make signal strengths lowers like splitters?


----------



## chemist047

Thanks EV for this helpful thread and all those who have contributed! Can I get an antenna recommendation, just bought a KD-30xs955 this week (yeah!). Btw, I live in San Francisco (Inner Sunset) apartment building on the first level. Nearby is the UCSF medical center and don't know if that will impact the signal strength. Attached are the tvfool results. Thanks so much!


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/15849218
> 
> 
> Do those combiners also make signal strengths lowers like splitters?



Only slightly, like around .7db (and you only need one) as opposed to 3db(half signal strength) for just one 2 way splitter.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

chemist, you have strong signals on your primary market channels, which is good. Your problems if you have any are likely to be local environmental obstructions and multi-path. Other city dwellers could answer your question better, and you may want to visit the AVSforum Local Threads for your area, for advice as well. However, starting with a cheap Rabbit Ears and Loop like the Radio Shack Budget 1874 may be a good starting place. You are going to need VHF 7 if you want to get ABC when they cut their analog signal.....that generally means Rabbit Ears when considering indoor antennas.


You can return the RS 1874 if its not satisfactory as RS has a good return policy. It will give you good information to work from to improve upon regardless. You may have multipath problems and the original unamplified Silver Sensor is often a very successful solution for big city folks in that regard....however you will need Rabbit Ears as well with them if you want to get ABC VHF Hi 7 post analog shutdown. That can be integrated with the USVJ VHF/UHF signal combiner that I and hollands have been discussing with phil these last 2 pages. Or you could try the Terk HDTVi which has some VHF Rabbit Ear Dipoles integrated with the log periodic Silver Sensor style UHF elements. I dont think an amplifier will be of any benefit in your situation and could be a hindrance.


Hope that helps.


----------



## chemist047

Thanks for the quick reply EV. I will definitely go with your suggestion of experimenting w/ the RS 1874 and the Terk HDTVi. I will also look at the local threads and see if I can find more info. I've read a little about the legendary RS 1880, would that be a good antenna to try and look for?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The 1880 is good for long range especially and is amplified. Its probably not for you.


Please note that you could have any number of local environmental factors such as aluminum siding, stucco walls (which have chicken wire mesh), and think muliple concrete walls that are detrimental to your recieving good signals.


(in the end amplification could concievably help you, I know of one New Yorker who expressed just that in this thread (the amplified silver sensor worked for him where other good antennas including the unamplified Silver Sensor failed).


So think of it as a guided trial and error....with good information and advisors to help you quickly achieve an acceptable or best solution....instead of blindly stabbing in the dark repeatedly, which can be timely and expensive.


----------



## deltaguy

I've wondered for a long time how the classic bowtie flat wire leads are joined to the transformer leads shown on page 1. Do you know? Is that some sort of tape? I assume that arrangement is for adding cable and searching for signal.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Painters tape. Temporary solution. Worked well.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I just got a notice from Photobucket that Ive only got 5GB of bandwidth left for the month out of 25GB. Primarily this thread is responsible for the 20GB of bandwidth already used this month. Hope it holds on.


----------



## kahoots

Hello,

I just got the channel master 7000 and i did 2 scans and it picked up 20 channels. However half of those channels, i can only hear audio, no video. The other channels are just church, selling stuff, 2 spanish channels and a music video channel. I cant get any of the main channels (CBS, FOX, NBC, WB, ABC, and UPN)!!! i dont know why.


The antenna i am using is from monoprice. http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 


I have every thing setup properly and all cables attached and tightened (used coax cables). The tv i have is the toshiba 20HLV86 http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-20HLV8.../dp/B000ES75WE 


FYI, i live in an apartment in NYC.


If someone can help me, it will be greatly appreciated.


Thanks in advance!


----------



## hakujin

Gosh, what a great thread! So many choices, wish I could get in on the RadioShack 'holy grail', now it's selling on eBay for $50+ - no thanks.


What would you guys recommend for the following:


-No more than 5.9 miles

-All towers within 12 degrees of one another

-All UHF


I live in an apartment. I was living in a different apt. in the same complex a short while ago and was able to pick up all channels with relatively little to no droupout with a non amplified silver sensor (HDTV wonder bundled). Since moving into an adjacent bldg a little further east, my reception has gotten spotty... on-off-on-off- 76%-60%-68% etc. you get the idea. I have to point the antenna at my neighbors unit somewhat, probably goes through a few walls before hitting the soutwestern path.


I know these things are difficult to predict, but what's the best indoor, low profile, style to go with, and or model number for a competitive price.


Thanks!


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kahoots* /forum/post/15859816
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I just got the channel master 7000 and i did 2 scans and it picked up 20 channels. However half of those channels, i can only hear audio, no video. The other channels are just church, selling stuff, 2 spanish channels and a music video channel. I cant get any of the main channels (CBS, FOX, NBC, WB, ABC, and UPN)!!! i dont know why.
> 
> 
> The antenna i am using is from monoprice. http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2
> 
> 
> I have every thing setup properly and all cables attached and tightened (used coax cables). The tv i have is the toshiba 20HLV86 http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-20HLV8.../dp/B000ES75WE
> 
> 
> FYI, i live in an apartment in NYC.
> 
> 
> If someone can help me, it will be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!



That is a head scratcher. You sure you have the thing set up right with all the cable plugged in the correct spots and securely. Usually if you have audio you have video with digital. You could have a bad cable, I had problems with video dropping out from my VCR to my TV, and after at least a year, I finally figured out it was a bad RCA Composite Video cable.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

hakujin, maybe some amplification and a wider beamwidth might help you.


How about try making the Youtube 4 Bay Coathanger antenna.


Ask these guys for improved performance designs (size of whiskers and spacing).


How to build a UHF antenna...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...798265&page=60


----------



## EscapeVelocity

These 2 antennas have caught my fancy. Ill try to track them down and give them a go.

*Jensen TV920*












Meritline "Artec" "Kingbox" Antenna


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is another video of the 4 Bay Bowtie Antenna.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDPZ...e=channel_page


----------



## EscapeVelocity

HDTVexpert doing some more mighty fine work. Here he compares 5 antennas. The Antennas Direct Clearstream1 and ClearStream2 and the Winegard SquareShooter 1000 and SquareShooter 2000, and last but not least the Channel master 2016.



> Quote:
> Five (Antennas) To Get Ready
> 
> 
> PETER PUTMAN, CTS
> 
> http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/Five_Antennas.html




The ClearStream antennas have been getting a lot of chatter lately.


----------



## deltaguy

I'm seeing a analog San Jose channel in nightlight mode. They are showing an NAB film about converters etc. over and over again. The antenna they show on screen as a VHF/UHF combo is obviously one of the white RCA flat models, after some checking tonight, perhaps the model 1500 on page 1 here.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Best Buy stores will soon be stocking the Antennas Direct ClearStream C1 at all their retail stores.


They just placed a very large order this week that should hit stores soon.


----------



## bigcam406

first off,i'd like to say thanks for a great thread.i myself was bitten by the dtv bug last year,and ive been viewing these threads as a source of great information on indoor antennas.unfortunately,i live in an apt ,facing north,with no balcony,so i knew it would be a challenge to receive any stations at all.i purchased a tivax convertor box,and a philips MANT510,and i was surprised that i get 8-10 western new york stations,depending on weather.after reading alot of reviews(mostly positive),i purchased a MANT940,assembled it on a 8 foot lamp mast,and proceded to locate it in the "sweet spot"that i had found with the MANT510,by a large window.suffice to say, i was extremely disappointed,as it wouldnt pick up 1 station.i think it could be an amp thats not working.is there any other preamp that you could use with this antenna that you could recommend?my next purchase in the future will be a DB2,with a preamp,since my location is not that great,even though im 1 mile north of the shores of Lake Ontario,with no large obstructions,other than my apartment walls.also,does anyone have any experience with antennas direct DA-2 distribution amp? it amplifies both uhf and vhf frequencies.thx again for a great thread.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for your input. Welcome to the thread, bigcam.


Maybe someone else can answer your questions. I picked up an RS power injected amplifier and it seems to make things worse when I hooked it up to a friends RS Double Bowtie....like it wasnt working properly....in fact it killed the signal. Maybe you got a bum unit.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Corrected Deltaguy, but I dont remember that the RCA1500 was all that great on VHF....though I wasnt focusing on that aspect of the antennas.


I really need to get to the front page and do some more updating and editing. I see I havent made any comments about the Philips MANT950 or RCA ANT806 nor the AD ClearStream2. And some of the other info on other antennas needs updating.


I was pretty inactive on the thread for a while there.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15875766
> 
> 
> Here is another video of the 4 Bay Bowtie Antenna.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDPZ...e=channel_page



Where the feed wires cross, electrical tape isn't enough.

One wire should HOP over the other, maintaining at least 1/2-inch separation.


We also saw someone construct it WITHOUT the Balun Transformer.

This is important, otherwise the 300-ohm antenna will cause a 4:1 VSWR

against the 75-ohm coax connection.


----------



## Chudhole

I live in Pittsburgh, which is pretty much all hills and valleys. I've used an un-powered RCA antenna which I maybe spent 20 dollars for. I couple it with an insignia DTV box. I pick up CBS/ABC/NBC/FOX/PBS/MY TV 22 and their sub channels. I also have a powered antenna for my "main TV". I have it simply sitting in a window frame. I have noticed in my city that the DTV signals seem to be VERY directional. I have managed to kind of use buildings to find "sweet spots" that allow me to simply leave my indoor antennae pointing in one direction.


However, I've noticed some odd things. I live close to a hospital. The helicopters severely distort the signal, on almost any channel. And I've also had interference from cars driving by. These aren't really major problems, the signal simply drops out for a moment, then returns.


My question is this: I've thought about buying an "Outdoor" antennae, one that I can mount on the side of the house. I am hoping to have improved (less interference) quality and perhaps maybe pick up some additional channels. A friend of mine has an old rooftop antennae and I'm amazed how many additional channels he picks up. At least ten more, some from as far away as Johnstown.


Should I get one that is "aim able?" Are those motor home ones a decent choice?


And if I do get one that mounts outside, I assume I should run it into some sort of power boost? I read the first page of this thread and I like some of the info, however I guess I am looking for direction in regards to brand, ease of installation, etc...


Any help?


----------



## deltaguy

I'd ask in the Pittsburgh OTA thread in the local reception forum on this one. It is active with people who know the area and what you will need for good rooftop reception. I wish I had 4 stations going to VHF-Hi post transition.


Some channels may have transitioned already.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15880041
> 
> 
> Where the feed wires cross, electrical tape isn't enough.
> 
> One wire should HOP over the other, maintaining at least 1/2-inch separation.
> 
> 
> We also saw someone construct it WITHOUT the Balun Transformer.
> 
> This is important, otherwise the 300-ohm antenna will cause a 4:1 VSWR
> 
> against the 75-ohm coax connection.



No doubt there are many ways to make a bad antenna. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chudhole* /forum/post/15880399
> 
> 
> However, I've noticed some odd things. I live close to a hospital. The helicopters severely distort the signal, on almost any channel. And I've also had interference from cars driving by. These aren't really major problems, the signal simply drops out for a moment, then returns.
> 
> 
> My question is this: I've thought about buying an "Outdoor" antennae, one that I can mount on the side of the house. I am hoping to have improved (less interference) quality and perhaps maybe pick up some additional channels. A friend of mine has an old rooftop antennae and I'm amazed how many additional channels he picks up. At least ten more, some from as far away as Johnstown.
> 
> 
> Should I get one that is "aim able?" Are those motor home ones a decent choice?
> 
> 
> And if I do get one that mounts outside, I assume I should run it into some sort of power boost? I read the first page of this thread and I like some of the info, however I guess I am looking for direction in regards to brand, ease of installation, etc...
> 
> 
> Any help?



helicopters and cars can cause reflections (multipath) which can give you signal problems for short periods, hills and buildings can also (but those reflections don't go away)


having a neighbor have some success with an outdoor may show you the way to go.


go to tvfool.com and enter your address, not zipcode because you have such terrain issues. it will give an estimate of signal strength and direction and what type of antenna might work..


----------



## hc2

 http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direc...5586849&sr=1-2 


This gets good reviews on Amazon and elsewhere.


----------



## Plox

Have you tested the Gray-Hoverman antenna?


I would like to see how this antenna compares to the DB2, DB4, and other commercial antennas.



http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/design.htm 



*DB2 Equivalent*











*DB4 Equivalent*


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The guys in this thread can tell you all about it. Additionally, Antennacraft is coming out with a Gray Hoverman style antenna this spring, the U-4500, FWIU.

How to build a UHF antenna...


----------



## snash22




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Plox* /forum/post/15912991
> 
> 
> Have you tested the Gray-Hoverman antenna?



What are the yellow lines? Are they reflectors?


----------



## rabbit73

yes


----------



## PAPOLUCA

Hello everyone i just bought a 67 inch DLP from Samsung and i have some questions about HD indoor antennas.


1. Do the antennas come only with F cable or do hey come with HDMI for the best possible picture and sound.


2. Can any one suggest a not to expensive (hopefully under $50.00) hd antenna with a built in amplifier. Dont need a tuner the tv can do it.


also i live on the 4th floor of a condo facing s/w. I plan to put the antenna in a solarium that is facing the s/w and my unit corner suite.


----------



## kedirekin

Antennas only come with F connectors. An antenna picks up RF signals - putting RF signals on an HDMI cable just wouldn't work. Don't worry about quality; with DTV if you see the picture, it's as good as it can be.


If you're going to place the antenna within a few feet of your TV, an amplified antenna isn't necessary. The amplifier inside your receiver is plenty powerful enough. Most (all?) inexpensive amplified antennas use noisy amplifiers that hurt your reception more than they help it.


----------



## PAPOLUCA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PAPOLUCA* /forum/post/15931406
> 
> 
> Hello everyone i just bought a 67 inch DLP from Samsung and i have some questions about HD indoor antennas.
> 
> 
> 1. Do the antennas come only with F cable or do hey come with HDMI for the best possible picture and sound.
> 
> 
> 2. Can any one suggest a not to expensive (hopefully under $50.00) hd antenna with a built in amplifier. Dont need a tuner the tv can do it.
> 
> 
> also i live on the 4th floor of a condo facing s/w. I plan to put the antenna in a solarium that is facing the s/w and my unit corner suite.



Can anyone suggest a good indoor antenna; ill be placing it in a solarium with four windows. My condo unit is a corner unitwhich is facing s/w.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Post your TVfool.com info.


----------



## orrinc

I bought my wife a 7" Haier HLT-71 portable TV (with analog/digital tuner) that she uses in her office and in the car (when she's not driving!)- we can't get a single station to come in decently here in the middle of Los Angeles!


Can anyone suggest a better antenna that might be suitable for a portable TV? Obviously one that doesn't need an outdoor mast, and preferably one that doesn't need a power supply . . .


Thinking about the ChannelMaster CM-4040, but I'm wondering if there's a better choice.


Thanks!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Classic Single Bowtie makes a good portable antenna.....for UHF. If you need VHF and UHF then maybe the RCA ANT108 and similar RE&Loops are pretty robust and compact.


----------



## orrinc

Thanks, EV!


I'll give those a try! Easier than an amplified antenna, if the results are better than the whip that comes with the set!


Orrin


----------



## bigcam406

just wondering what a good pre amp to use with a DB2? as of now,im using a mant510,but im looking to upgrade in the near future.im picking up 8-10 stations from western new york but im trying to further my progress when the weather gets better.any suggestions? im located in Oshawa Ontario


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *orrinc* /forum/post/15953411
> 
> 
> I bought my wife a 7" Haier HLT-71 portable TV (with analog/digital tuner) that she uses in her office and in the car (when she's not driving!)- we can't get a single station to come in decently here in the middle of Los Angeles!
> 
> 
> Can anyone suggest a better antenna that might be suitable for a portable TV? Obviously one that doesn't need an outdoor mast, and preferably one that doesn't need a power supply . . .
> 
> 
> Thinking about the ChannelMaster CM-4040, but I'm wondering if there's a better choice.
> 
> 
> Thanks!



I would not suggest Wingard 8200HD as it would be hard to balance while walking and proablity will need a front and rear "WIDE LOAD" banner on the car.


Willie


----------



## orrinc

Well I'm actually shocked! I bought an RCA ANT111 at Best Buy for $8.99, and I'm amazed at the improvement!


It looks like the Haier set has no UHF antenna in it at all! Even with the two dipole whips completely retracted, the set now receives dozens of digital stations that it never received at all before. The analog and VHF performance are still not up to cable standards, but with their digital counterparts coming in crystal-clear, it doesn't matter.


We'll have to see how it does in the car- I expect that the digital reception might suffer in a moving vehicle, since it's more directional.


I'm also going to try a Radio Shack 15-234 Bow Tie antenna, since I'm not sure the VHF reception is even necessary, although I'll need to add an external balun with that one.


Now I just wonder why Haier even bothers with the dumb 4ft whip antenna when a small UHF-only antenna would have given vastly superior results right out of the box!


By the way- does anyone know where I can find a chart showing the actual frequencies of all the new digital channels? The set shows 2, 2.1, 4, 4.1, etc., but I believe that the digital subcarriers are actually far from the VHF frequencies they're associated with, right?


Thanks, EV!


Orrin


----------



## EscapeVelocity

TVfool will show you. You have several big stations moving there digital transmission to VHF post transition. KABC (ABC), KCAL, KTTV (Fox) and KCOP (MyTV).....on 7, 9, 11, and 13 respectively.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigcam406* /forum/post/15961984
> 
> 
> just wondering what a good pre amp to use with a DB2? as of now,im using a mant510,but im looking to upgrade in the near future.im picking up 8-10 stations from western new york but im trying to further my progress when the weather gets better.any suggestions? im located in Oshawa Ontario



2 good amps are the Channel Master 7777, and the Motorola BDA S1.


----------



## orrinc

The TVFool.com site only shows the first virtual digital channel. I'm receiving several virtual channels from some broadcasters- for example, KSCI (Channel 18) has about 5 subchannels- 18.1, 18.2, 18.3, etc., all with different programming.


----------



## orrinc

Also- does anyone know of a simple UHF bow tie antenna with a 75ohm "F" output? I know I can put a balun on the end, but having it all internal to the antenna with a mini-coax cable attached would be much neater.


The Radio Shack one seems to be the only one out there, and it's just 300 ohm twin-lead.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The only ones Ive seen are all twinlead and will need a balun for 75ohm in.


I think your local listings in the Newspaper will give you subchannel information.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *orrinc* /forum/post/15963667
> 
> 
> By the way- does anyone know where I can find a chart showing the actual frequencies of all the new digital channels?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *orrinc* /forum/post/15963805
> 
> 
> The TVFool.com site only shows the first virtual digital channel. I'm receiving several virtual channels from some broadcasters- for example, KSCI (Channel 18) has about 5 subchannels- 18.1, 18.2, 18.3, etc., all with different programming.



One of the benefits of DTV is the ability for stations to multicast i.e. transmit multiple programs simultaneously via the same frequency. Thus, even though you are receiving five subchannels, they are all transmitted on the same frequency. That's why they say that digital television is more efficient than analog because analog requires 6 mhz to transmit a single program whereas digital can transmit up to 6 programs using the same bandwidth.


----------



## orrinc

Duh! Of course!










Thanks for the reminder!


----------



## oldsyd

Hi, I've read quite a bit here, but I'm still at a loss as to what might be one of the best choices for my situation.


I'm looking for the best solution for an indoor VHF-HI/UHF antenna. Unfortunately it needs to be an indoor antenna that will sit on top

of the TV.


I'm attaching my tvfool report, where you can see I need VHF channels 7 and 9 plus UHF channels 25-51. Unfortunately, channel 25 is on the complete opposite side of the other UHF stations. It's not a very good station (CW) anyway, so if I don't get it, that's OK.


Any ideas? Is there a full DB chart for all frequencies and all antennas discussed here?


Thanks!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

A bi-directional loop and dipoles (RE&Loop) antenna may be sufficient for you. Amplification may help as well.


So try RS 1874 Budget and the Petra/Cornet or Terk TV-3.


You may want to try lifting the antenna with books or something as even one foot can make a big difference in reception (sweet spots).


----------



## bigcam406

thx for the response velocity.i'll look into it.just wondering since i dont really need vhf channels amped,is there other pre amps that just amplify uhf? thx


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Well, I can think of a reason why you could want to amplify one but not the other, but its pretty specific.


I wouldnt worry about doing that.


You could get a Winegard amplifier that has a much lower amplification on VHF. Here is a list of Amplifiers from SolidSignal with specs for comparison.

http://www.solidsignal.com/antennas/preamplifiers.asp 


Remember, you get signal loss via splitters and cable length, so amplifiers help overcome those loses.


----------



## rviele




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *orrinc* /forum/post/15963822
> 
> 
> Also- does anyone know of a simple UHF bow tie antenna with a 75ohm "F" output? I know I can put a balun on the end, but having it all internal to the antenna with a mini-coax cable attached would be much neater.
> 
> 
> The Radio Shack one seems to be the only one out there, and it's just 300 ohm twin-lead.



if i remember correctly winegard makes one because thats what is on my roof. if you need the model i'll have to chase it down.


----------



## rviele




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rviele* /forum/post/15972265
> 
> 
> if i remember correctly winegard makes one because thats what is on my roof. if you need the model i'll have to chase it down.



addition to my earlier post i don't think it's a bow tie


----------



## bigcam406

thx again,i wasnt thinking clearly when i posted my last message as im gonna need vhf for my canadian stations until aug 2011.too much cold medication...


----------



## gamehhh

thanks great revie and stuff


----------



## Bix

Got the RS 15-1892 (spaceship/UFO/mushroom) today and so far, it's a major improvement over the performance I was getting w/ an older RS amplified rabbit ears/loop combo. I had been eyeing the RCA ANT2000 smart antenna, but with RCA/Audiovox being out of stock and not knowing when it will be back, leading to every seller but Solid Signal being out of stock (and SS is charging a lot more than it was going for before), so I got this instead (I've been kicking myself for not getting it when Beach Audio had it in stock a few weeks ago for something like $60).


My one worry is that the VHF part of the 15-1892 is just a plain set of rabbit ears without the programmable features of the UHF portion, while the ANT2000 is all one unit. Here in the NY market area, 3 major stations will be moving their DTs to the old analog frequency numbers after the transition. Does anyone here who's tested this antenna live in a market that already has VHF DTs?


Thanks!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Its true that the VHF elements(VHF Dipoles aka Rabbit Ears) of most of these indoor antennas is inferior to the UHF elements.


----------



## Ken H

Is there a synopsis of the topic findings?


----------



## Bix

That's what I figured. Do you have any VHF DTs yet that you've been able to test it with? If not, what about over analog?


If I need VHF, am I better off returning this and going for something that's all one solid unit w/o rabbit ears?


----------



## mirayge

Hello! All information on the 1500 indicates that it is matched to the downlead shielding as part of the antenna element. VHF part only? Mine is in the attic attached to a CM-7778 pre-amp on combined input and 50ft. of RG6 test cable to the reciever. My question is how much of the run is recieving signal? Would it be cut off at the amp, or is it a long extention as if I had used a barrel connector?


----------



## holl_ands

I'm not sure I understand your question.....


RCA ANT1500 is a non-amplified VHF/UHF omnidirectional antenna with a 75-ohm coax

attached, so the output is unbalanced (if it even uses a balun, it's inside the antenna).


The 75-ohm coax can be connected to the combined VHF/UHF input on the CM7778,

making sure that its switch is set for combined VHF/UHF input, rather than separate.


If you don't have it already, RCA antenna specs and manuals are found here:
http://66.77.167.109/rcaaccessories/


----------



## mirayge

Sorry if my post wasn't clear enough. What I am saying is the attached coax is a RECIEVING part of the antenna. If one were to simply extend the length of the coax with a barrel connector then placement of the wire becomes dificult. A little left or right or a bend around a door frame changes reception. Does running through a pre-amp isolate the antenna coax from the main run enough to avoid these issues?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mirayge* /forum/post/15999002
> 
> 
> Sorry if my post wasn't clear enough. What I am saying is the attached coax is a RECIEVING part of the antenna. If one were to simply extend the length of the coax with a barrel connector then placement of the wire becomes dificult. A little left or right or a bend around a door frame changes reception. Does running through a pre-amp isolate the antenna coax from the main run enough to avoid these issues?



It's hard to tell how much the ANT1500 relies on coax pickup for VHF reception.

If it did, the Preamp would amplify the signal out of the antenna and short coax segment,

which would overwhelm whatever minimal pickup there might be on a long coax extension.


It should help, to the extent it increases signal levels and ALSO restricts SWR

(standing wave ratio) issues to just the short segment to the preamp.

Presuming you aren't within a few miles of any TV transmitters....don't want to overload Preamp....


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/15997612
> 
> 
> Is there a synopsis of the topic findings?



No.


----------



## avirus

hi all, has anyone tried the hd indoor antenna from aluratek?


this is the one i want to get: Aluratek

HD TV Indoor Antenna - ATVA100


currently is on dell.ca (search for hd antenna, couldn't post link)


i tried searching it on this forum and had no result. any reviews or feedback will be great. thanks in advance.


----------



## avirus

also, i have a KDL40V4100 40” BRAVIA V-Series. since i am new to these hdtv things, does my tv have built in internal antenna for ota hd channels? will the Aluratek HD TV Indoor Antenna - ATVA100 help me receive the ota hd channels? thanks.


----------



## maggiefan

That TV has a digital tuner but not any kind of antenna, you have to connect one to it.


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/15997612
> 
> 
> Is there a synopsis of the topic findings?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16004175
> 
> 
> No.



The first page is a pretty good aggregation of data, IMHO!


----------



## partsman_ba

And now, on to my question. I have a Phillips MANT300 amplified ears/loop (bought before I knew anything about how bad amplifiers are in indoor antennas) with the amplifier off. I run the signal through an old splitter to my HDTV and a DTVPal front-ending a VCR. All of my stations are


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *avirus* /forum/post/16010447
> 
> 
> i have a KDL40V4100 40” BRAVIA V-Series. since i am new to these hdtv things, does my tv have built in internal antenna for ota hd channels?



I'm not aware of any TV that comes with an internal antenna, so I assume you mean does it have an digital (ATSC) tuner. Check your owner's manual to be sure.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *avirus* /forum/post/16010447
> 
> 
> will the Aluratek HD TV Indoor Antenna - ATVA100 help me receive the ota hd channels?



Probably. My guess is that it is no better and no worse than a lot of other antennas out there. I found one negative review on Amazon and several (mostly positive) reviews on Buy. However, you would probably be better off buying something locally from Radio Shack or Walmart that you could return if it didn't work well in your location.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *partsman_ba* /forum/post/16012190
> 
> 
> All of my stations are


----------



## avirus




> Quote:
> I'm not aware of any TV that comes with an internal antenna, so I assume you mean does it have an digital (ATSC) tuner. Check your owner's manual to be sure.



The reason I asked because when I did a scan for digital channels with my cable plugged in, the TV came back with a few tv and radio channels (something like 43.3), so I thought it has a built in antenna.



> Quote:
> Probably. My guess is that it is no better and no worse than a lot of other antennas out there. I found one negative review on Amazon and several (mostly positive) reviews on Buy. However, you would probably be better off buying something locally from Radio Shack or Walmart that you could return if it didn't work well in your location.



I guess I have to drop by walmart to see if they carry any hd antenna during lunch. Thank you for your quick reply.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *avirus* /forum/post/16032477
> 
> 
> The reason I asked because when I did a scan for digital channels with my cable plugged in, the TV came back with a few tv and radio channels (something like 43.3), so I thought it has a built in antenna.
> 
> 
> I guess I have to drop by walmart to see if they carry any hd antenna during lunch. Thank you for your quick reply.



Refer to pg 12 and 37 in your Sony's User Guide.


You can connect the Sony to either Cable or an On-The-Air Antenna. The Sony

User Guide shows how to connect an A/B Switch.


1. When connected to Cable, go to SETTINGS and ensure SIGNAL TYPE = CABLE

and then run AUTO PROGRAM. This will find analog channels (below Ch100) as well

as UNENCRYPTED QAM digital channels (local HD plus perhaps a few others).


2. An external antenna connects in place of the cable coax.

You will then have to go to SETTINGS to change SIGNAL TYPE = ANTENNA

and rerun AUTO PROGRAM. This will find On-Air analog & digital channels.

Move the antenna around and run ADD DIGITAL CHANNELS several times....

Location, location, location. Check against www.tvfool.com 


3. If you decide to switch back to Cable, you'll have to repeat step #1 again.

And then if you switch to Antenna, repeat step #2 again....

Most DTVs would rather you pick one or the other, since channel scans take

quite awhile to run.


----------



## dattier

Many TVs will save one set of QAM channel assignments and another set of ATSC channel assignments, and you will not have to rescan every time you switch between them.


You'll still have to reconnect your cables and go through the TV's menus to change its mode, but you won't have to rescan.


----------



## nicoge21

is the DB2 good for first floor with no line of sight?


----------



## javs1979

Hi all,


I'm thinking about getting an indor antenna to use with my computer TV tuner (an Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1800 ). According to tvfool.com (see results ), I can get many channels which is a good thing. I live near Quebec City .


Problem is I don't know much about antennas. I may consider this one from The Source because it's already been reviewed in this thread.

*Did someone try a Rosewill RMS-DA8300 or a Rosewill RMS-HDA5000 * ? First one looks good and it fits well near a window. Last one can be placed indoor or outdoor. Both are sold at Newegg at a good price.


What you guys think ?


Thank you !


----------



## Amiga

EscapeVelocity here's another antenna you might want to try in your labs. _It's quite flashy!_









Artec Digital HDTV Flat Antenna


----------



## nicoge21

So far all the indoor antennas I've tried have failed. My "temp" RCA ant111 barely get 3 stations at best. Sucks being blocked with no line of sight.










Stupid hills!!!!







Surrounded by high hills, trees, and crammed in between several houses


----------



## oldsyd

Ok, I've been testing the RS 1874, and it just isn't picking up

channel 7 very well. I even have it placed in front of the window

that faces the tower. The VHF is so stop and go, it is unwatchable.


I'm thinking an amplified indoor antenna would help, preferably

one with good VHF and UHF reception.


I'm not afraid to spend some money on a good indoor antenna,

but I'm still not able to drill holes and do it proper with an outdoor

antenna. This has to be a temporary install.


I've spent several hours trying to figure out what my best candidate

is, and I've narrowed it down to these 6 (in no specific order):


1. Terk HDTVi and HDTVa


2. Winegard Sharp Shooter SS-3000


3. Radio Shack 15-1862


4. Petra/Cornet


5. Terk TV-3


6. Channel Master CM-4030


The big problem is that I would like to pull in KWKB on UHF, but unfortunately

it's on the other side of the state from all the main broadcasters. Does this mean an omni is the way to go? The best would be a directional VHF with an omni UHF amplified indoor, do they even make those?


Thanks for looking, I'm attaching the TVFool map of my location again for reference.


~jay



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oldsyd* /forum/post/15964828
> 
> 
> Hi, I've read quite a bit here, but I'm still at a loss as to what might be one of the best choices for my situation.
> 
> 
> I'm looking for the best solution for an indoor VHF-HI/UHF antenna. Unfortunately it needs to be an indoor antenna that will sit on top
> 
> of the TV.
> 
> 
> I'm attaching my tvfool report, where you can see I need VHF channels 7 and 9 plus UHF channels 25-51. Unfortunately, channel 25 is on the complete opposite side of the other UHF stations. It's not a very good station (CW) anyway, so if I don't get it, that's OK.
> 
> 
> Any ideas? Is there a full DB chart for all frequencies and all antennas discussed here?
> 
> 
> Thanks!





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A bi-directional loop and dipoles (RE&Loop) antenna may be sufficient for you. Amplification may help as well.
> 
> 
> So try RS 1874 Budget and the Petra/Cornet or Terk TV-3.
> 
> 
> You may want to try lifting the antenna with books or something as even one foot can make a big difference in reception (sweet spots).


----------



## Lord_Zath

You could also purchase a standalone pre-amp. The advantage to that is you're more flexible should you want to change antennas later.


How close are you to the antennas? Are they all in one direction?


----------



## nicoge21

is there absolutely no indoor solution to 1edge and 2edge stations? There's a rash of signals being blocked by the hills around here.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

A lot of my stations are 1 edge and 2 edge. I live in flatland, but in a swampy depression.



If Channel 7 is your only problem then maybe try an amplified RE&Loop like the Petra/Cornet or the Terk TV-3. The RS 1892 will probably work as well, and without the need to change positions of the UHF elements via the remote.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Nicoge21, your toughest channel is going to be NBC Real Channel 7 post transition. But you should be able to get all the others in the UHF band in the Yellow....which will give you all the primary broadcasters, including ION and CW...plus some independents. You might even get some red UHF by adjusting the atenna.....but you should be able to get Green and Yellow in one position and forget.


Try the Radio Shack UFO 1892.


----------



## nicoge21

none of my channels are yellow, all red and blue. TVfools has all mmy stations in 1edge 2edge and tropo, I have an indoor RCA ANT111 and I get WZMY, and WHDH (+THIS sub ch) in fine.


Nothing else.


Maybe I should try one of these hideous things

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103088


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I was going by your posted TVfool just above a few posts.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

If you go that route, then you might be better served with a Channel Master 2016, which has some VHF dipoles on them.


Here is a test review of several antennas including the CM 2016, by HDTVexpert.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/Five_Antennas.html 



Or maybe you would be better served by a Winegard 7084P or 7082P.


----------



## nicoge21

i was gonna use it indoors, but probably wouldnt do any better.


In the antenna height option on TV fool i put it at 25 feet and a few channels were LOS. The rest were 1edge.


So I think my elevation really has something to do with it.


----------



## oldsyd

Well, the RS 1892 didn't cut it for channel 7. Turning the amp on

made the signal quality worse. The dipoles just don't pull in channel

7 at all, or it's too flaky. I spent about 2 hours tweaking it changing the

height, position and length of the dipoles (rabbit ears) with poor results.

It also stinks that the saucer blocks a good deal of rotation on the rabbit

ears.


All the UHF stations come in great without the amp on, so I'm thinking

I might return it. The sound of the UHF antenna moving sounds cheap

like it might break over extended use, and the direction indicator doesn't

tell you which way it is pointing, only the number. I'm also thinking there

is signal loss through that TV/AUX switch, and on how the rotator is connected since if you watch analog stations, there is breakup as the

antennna rotates.


As far as VHF, are there more directional arrays for indoor?


It looks like I will have to order one online, since nobody seems to carry the Terk or Petra/Cornet around here.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16085264
> 
> 
> A lot of my stations are 1 edge and 2 edge. I live in flatland, but in a swampy depression.
> 
> 
> 
> If Channel 7 is your only problem then maybe try an amplified RE&Loop like the Petra/Cornet or the Terk TV-3. The RS 1892 will probably work as well, and without the need to change positions of the UHF elements via the remote.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

VHF dipoles are not as good as the UHF elements on these better indoor antennas.


If you can get by without 7, then an unamplified UHF antenna like the Channel Master 4149 or DB2 should work well for you. Otherwise you should be looking into a large outdoor(or attic) VHF/UHF combo antenna.


----------



## kedirekin




> Quote:
> As far as VHF, are there more directional arrays for indoor?



At VHF wavelengths, the only practical indoor antenna is a rabbit ears or other type of dipole. More powerful directional VHF antennas, like an LPDA, are just too large for practical indoor use.


People have reported a 4-bay bow-tie with a large (36"x40") reflector shows modest gain on VHF-HI. I'd consider that a reasonable compromise - large, but not too large, and a fair amount of gain, but limited to VHF-HI.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ive heard of people making large VHF antennas out of not to thick wire, and attached directly to the ceiling.....but that is beyond my level of technical ability. Perhaps you could ask in The Official Antenna Thread!


----------



## oldsyd

Hey, thanks everyone for putting up with me here. I'm kinda

crazy when it comes to finding solutions.


I think I'll return the UFO, since the UHF portion of it is overkill for me.


I've ordered the Cornet to see if that is any better as far as VHF is concerned. If not, I might just resort to a homebrew setup with a good UHF indoor and then custom cut a VHF specifically tuned to channel 7.


Things might change here too because channel 7 (KWWL NBC) is getting a new

transmitter in May (hopefully) and they will also be increasing power in June. And, in June we will be seeing the ABC affiliate drop from channel 55 back to VHF 9, so VHF will be important around here.


Just so you know, I do have two large UHF and VHF antennas in my attic right now fed into a combiner and preamp with a coaxial run to the basement and my primary TV, and it works great!


This indoor antenna is for the guest room, and with this old house and all the insulation and 100 years of dust in the walls, I really don't want to take on a project like snaking coax through the walls, especially when we will be moving soon.


Oh, and I did look at the Winegard SS-3000, but I haven't been able

to find any data regarding VHF-HI performance over a dipole. I'm guessing

it isn't much better.











Anyway, thanks for listening and you suggestions, I'll let you know how things work.


~j


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oldsyd* /forum/post/16096973
> 
> 
> As far as VHF, are there more directional arrays for indoor?



I was on a similar quest a few months ago and came to realize that rabbit ears are pretty much it for indoor VHF reception. However, if you're a do-it-yourself kind of guy, you might check out the following thread. It didn't help me much since I'm not one for building my own stuff, but it's there if you're interested.

How to build an indoor VHF antenna 


When I was comparing various antennas, I found the Terk HDTVa to be superior to most others I've tried. The VHF dipoles are thicker and longer than most other antennas. However, the UHF reception is a little too directional for most people's taste.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oldsyd* /forum/post/16099215
> 
> 
> Oh, and I did look at the Winegard SS-3000, but I haven't been able to find any data regarding VHF-HI performance over a dipole. I'm guessing it isn't much better.



The following page at HDTV Primer is a great resource for comparing various antennas including the Sharp Shooter.

Comparing some commercially available antennas 


The Sharp Shooter was one of the many antennas I've tried, and I wasn't particularly impressed with it. In my opinion, it doesn't perform any better than many other antennas that cost less than half as much.


----------



## Porschefan

Hi,


I pretty new to the world of HD TV and have some very basic questions on how accomplish my next goal, which is to get as many Los Angeles-area OTA HD feeds as possible. I am currently a Dish Network subscriber and have two VIP612 receivers/DVR's.


I subscribed to the Dish "local" HD package, but discovered that meant only 4 HD feeds from the Los Angeles "big four" networks: ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox. I didn't even realize what I was missing until I noticed that all the LA Lakers games that are broadcast over KCAL, Channel 9 here are in standard definition, and I KNOW KCAL broacasts them in HD. Also no HD programming from the local PBS outlets. So I'm going to try to add an antenna and get these (and probably a lot more) channels in HD. According to Dish I won't be able to cancel their local channels and still run the antenna into the VIP612 for integration into the program guide and DVR functions, but I guess that's another thing I can't do anything about. I'll actually be happy enough if I can get the Lakers and the PBS stations in HD...that's not too much to ask right?










With the research I've done so far, I think I might be able to pull this off with an indoor antenna, but would be willing to go to an outdoor if that doesn't work out. I think I'm going to be in a good geographical situation since I live at the top of a hill (750 ft elevation) just east of downtown. From the roof of my house I have a clear line-of-sight view of all the broadcast antennae on Mt. Wilson--probably about 15-20 miles (?) as the crow flies.


I'm planning on ordering a Winegard SS-3000 because I kind of like the looks and it seems to get stellar reviews just about everywhere I Google it.


The questions I have before I go forward and order this are:


1. Am I on the right general path as far as what I'm trying to accomplish? Or am I missing something important, either about Dish or this antenna?


2. Are there any real strong recommendations about a better antenna to go with for a first try?


3. The little "user manual" for the SS-3000 is available here:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon..../251232910.pdf 


The illustration of the components for the SS-3000 indicate that there are 2-ft. and 6-ft. coax cables included in the set. I doubt that I'll be able to get the antenna situated within a 2-ft. cable run of the VIP612 and may need to run an extension cord on the cable/plug for the amplifier unit. Is there any problem with purchasing the proper kind of cable and/or adding an extension cord to what they send you.


I hope I'm not over-complicating what should be a simple task! Any advice/suggestions welcomed.


TIA.


----------



## oldsyd

Thanks, Rick.


I did see those gain charts, but notice the Sharp Shooter isn't

on the VHF charts, only on some of the UHF charts, and the one

I was interested in that had the SS on it, he didn't plot a dipole.


Thanks for the link to the VHF DIY antenna, I just might do that

since it's only 1 VHF channel I need.


~j



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16099474
> 
> 
> I was on a similar quest a few months ago and came to realize that rabbit ears are pretty much it for indoor VHF reception. However, if you're a do-it-yourself kind of guy, you might check out the following thread. It didn't help me much since I'm not one for building my own stuff, but it's there if you're interested.
> 
> How to build an indoor VHF antenna
> 
> 
> When I was comparing various antennas, I found the Terk HDTVa to be superior to most others I've tried. The VHF dipoles are thicker and longer than most other antennas. However, the UHF reception is a little too directional for most people's taste.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The following page at HDTV Primer is a great resource for comparing various antennas including the Sharp Shooter.
> 
> Comparing some commercially available antennas
> 
> 
> The Sharp Shooter was one of the many antennas I've tried, and I wasn't particularly impressed with it. In my opinion, it doesn't perform any better than many other antennas that cost less than half as much.


----------



## deltaguy

That SS-3000 is an amplified antenna if it is the same as the one pictured on page 1 of this thread. You probably do not need amplification for the Mount Wilson channels and an amp may hurt reception instead of help it. I'd try something without an amp first. If you can place an antenna where it can see the broadcast towers without obstruction, which is true line of sight, you should be in great shape. The budget VHF/UHF combo from Radio Shack might work for you and you could return it if it fails to do so. Check out the TVFool site to see just how many channels you can try for at your location and the Los Angeles OTA thread here for insider advice. Good Luck.


----------



## magna2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16088485
> 
> 
> i was gonna use it indoors, but probably wouldnt do any better.
> 
> 
> In the antenna height option on TV fool i put it at 25 feet and a few channels were LOS. The rest were 1edge.
> 
> 
> So I think my elevation really has something to do with it.



Nicoge21,


I would recommend that you try an amplified directional indoor antenna such as a Terk HDTVa that would filter out some of the multi-paths that you are probably experiencing. From your tvfools printout, you are getting ample signal for your area but the 2-edge reception just mean that your signal is being received after being diffracted twice.


Again, the tvfool printout shows most of your channels are either in the green or yellow. So the culprit is probably the basic antenna that you are using. So a amplified antenna should help with the reception. As you have mentioned, Lawrence is a somewhat hilly in some areas and if you happen to be surrounded by hills due to being in a valley, I suspect that you are contending with multi-path issues as well.


----------



## oldsyd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16099474
> 
> 
> When I was comparing various antennas, I found the Terk HDTVa to be superior to most others I've tried. The VHF dipoles are thicker and longer than most other antennas. However, the UHF reception is a little too directional for most people's taste.




Someone specifically mentions here that the Terk HDTVa was unable to receive the station I am having problems with:

http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/revie...a-reviews.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

In my testing, I really didnt focus on VHF performance.


However the Philips MANT510 had very solid and long VHF dipoles.....and so did the Terk TV-3 and TV-2 .....all 3 of these had 44" long solid stiff dipoles.


----------



## nicoge21

Best buy has a SMART antenna now

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1218067406680 


If you have a smart antenna jack, try it!


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16150642
> 
> 
> Best buy has a SMART antenna now
> 
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1218067406680
> 
> 
> If you have a smart antenna jack, try it!



I'm skeptical whether the Apex SM550 is even a true Smart Antenna.....

It only has one set of rabbit ears and a (too small) UHF loop around the clock,

so where are the multiple antennas?????


From Best Buy's description, I would conclude it's a typical amplified antenna

that can plug into the CEA-909 Smart Antenna I/F...but *ONLY* to pick up DC power....

although perhaps they're adjusting the amplifier gain????


BIG tip-off is the price is the same as a generic amplified rabbit ears

(so nothing left in the budget for a Smart Antenna electronics module).


PS: Here's SM-550 on the Apex website:
http://www.shop-apex.shoppingcartspl...87/6860063.htm


----------



## jcleworth33




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14047539
> 
> 
> Sage advice from KenH.
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by Ken H View Post
> 
> In general:
> 
> Outdoors is better than indoors.
> 
> Bigger is better than smaller.
> 
> Directional is better than omnidirectional.
> 
> Mounting higher is better than mounting lower.



That's what she said.


----------



## Krazy_Karl

Any idea how the indoor or the outdoor Monoprice antennas work? I live in CT and my cable signal is terrible, was going to give one of these a shot since they are quite affordable and I was going to order some cables from them anyways. When I tried to scan with my Panasonic TH58PZ800U it came back with 0 channels, I was looking at the outdoor style. Thanks for the help!


----------



## oldsyd

Well the Cornet F-645A arrived, and I had even worse results

with VHF channel 7 than the Radio Shack UFO. I found the Cornet

flaky. Some of the DTV UHF channels would not even come in

unless the amp/power was turned on, making me think the power

switch actually closes the circuit for the UHF antenna.


Out of curiousity, I tested it out on some analog VHF and UHF

stations, to make sure it was pointed correctly (same towers

as DTV here) and also found the middle 1/3 of the gain knob

actually made the picture worse on the analog signal.


I can only assume that wasn't helping the DTV signals either.


Out of curiousity, I took it apart to see how it was built, and

found the wires that connect the antenna elements (rabbit ears

and UHF loop) are about as thin as you can get. Note in the pictures

those connecting wires are thinner than the LED wires!


There is actually circuitry in there, but I'm not sure it is better

than a non-amplified signal.



















In the end, I ended up making my own antenna, and guess what?

It worked great! It looks ugly, but cost me under $3, and it pulls in VHF-7 with 68% signal strength and 100% quality (APEX CECB has dual meters)


I hope this helps someone out there!











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16099474
> 
> 
> I was on a similar quest a few months ago and came to realize that rabbit ears are pretty much it for indoor VHF reception. However, if you're a do-it-yourself kind of guy, you might check out the following thread. It didn't help me much since I'm not one for building my own stuff, but it's there if you're interested.
> 
> How to build an indoor VHF antenna
> 
> 
> When I was comparing various antennas, I found the Terk HDTVa to be superior to most others I've tried. The VHF dipoles are thicker and longer than most other antennas. However, the UHF reception is a little too directional for most people's taste.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The following page at HDTV Primer is a great resource for comparing various antennas including the Sharp Shooter.
> 
> Comparing some commercially available antennas
> 
> 
> The Sharp Shooter was one of the many antennas I've tried, and I wasn't particularly impressed with it. In my opinion, it doesn't perform any better than many other antennas that cost less than half as much.


----------



## OTA1954

I have the Terk HDTVa whose range is 40-45 miles, and was thinking about trying Radio Shack's UFO, to see if it is better. OTA broadcast towers are about 40 miles from me.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTA1954* /forum/post/16265595
> 
> 
> I have the Terk HDTVa whose range is 40-45 miles, and was thinking about trying Radio Shack's UFO, to see if it is better. OTA broadcast towers are about 40 miles from me.



Most indoor antennas don't make any claims about range, but 40-45 miles is pretty much the maximum limit for any of them. You could certainly give the UFO a try, but I would not expect it to do any better than the HDTVa. Indoor antennas are basically designed for urban/suburban reception up to about 30 miles. At 40 miles, you really need to consider an outdoor or attic mounted antenna.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

While I generally agree with Rick313's comments. If you are getting pretty good reception with the Terk HDTVa, you may do better with the RS UFO, it has a wider beamwidth and thus can give you better, more stable less "physically adjusting the antenna" reception.


----------



## db130

Well the Petra was available in limited quantities for a microsecond on buy.com today. They sold out while I was in the process of checking out though LOL.


----------



## nicoge21

Has anyone tried out the best buy smart antenna yet? Made by Apex. And if so how does it work for you?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1218067406680 


My box doesn't have Smart antenna port


----------



## Jim1348

I helped my mother in law today with a converter install. She is less than 7 miles from the Shoreview MN towers and was having reception problems in the basement with VHF rabbit ear antenna on some channels. I am thinking of getting a Silver Sensor or something similar for her since she doesn't want anything mounted outside. Anyway, is the Silver Sensor still the indoor antenna of choice and, whichever if the antenna of choice, are there likely to be local stores that carry this or should I focus on something on line? Also, I am considering the double bow tie indoor antenna, possibly the CM 4149.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

If you dont have any VHF stations, then the CM 4149, I would recommend over the Silver Sensor.


Post her TVfool.com info, and you will get better recommendations.


If she is in a basement, then mounting on a window with suction cup window hooks toward the direction of the towers is the best option. Dont forget to look for sweet spots.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim1348* /forum/post/16296065
> 
> 
> I helped my mother in law today with a converter install. She is less than 7 miles from the Shoreview MN towers and was having reception problems in the basement with VHF rabbit ear antenna on some channels. I am thinking of getting a Silver Sensor or something similar for her since she doesn't want anything mounted outside. Anyway, is the Silver Sensor still the indoor antenna of choice and, whichever if the antenna of choice, are there likely to be local stores that carry this or should I focus on something on line? Also, I am considering the double bow tie indoor antenna, possibly the CM 4149.



You are having problems because all of your digital stations are currently on UHF and rabbit ears are VHF antennas. Hang on to the rabbit ears, they may be needed for 9 & 11 come June 12th as they go back to their original assignments from UHF locations.


Pick up a UHF antenna, position it in a window facing the towers and go for it. Also, test it on 9 & 11 analog for a preview of whether or not it will pick up those two post-transition. At your close range, even a cheap UHF-only antenna will still likely get the job done.


Otherwise, just pick up a rabbit-ear/loop combo for twenty bucks or less and it should work.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Duh, Shoreline MN.


Yeah, you might be best served with a Rabbit Ears and Loop.....the best Ive tested is the Radio Shack 1874 Budget.


Or you might go with an Eagle Aspen DB2 clone, because Fox and NBC are moving to 9 and 11 which are VHF Hi. The Channel Master 4149 starts losing gain on lower UHF, and its really not effective for VHF. The DB2 clone is not much more money and has better gain on VHF Hi than the CM 4149. Mounting a DB2 on suctioncup hooks to a window is one of the slickest mounts, Ive seen or heard.


Try the RS 1874 first though.


----------



## Jim1348

Here is the URL for TV Fool


If you would like to share these results with others, this page can be referenced as:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7c72b2c91e36f5 


This place shows the EAGLE ASPEN DTV2BUHF DIRECTV 2-BAY UHF ANTENNA for under $21 shipped. My wife just reminded me that the suction cup hook mount might work for them, but they have no windows in the basement. I seem to recall a single or double bow tie from Radio Shack back in the day that had feet or a stand allowing it to be places on top of a table or desk, but I haven't seen that one for ages.

http://riascrazydeals.com/rw_15890_22428.html


----------



## Polarican

Apt location = absolute worst in entire garden complex. I live in Central NJ and can only receive signal in my bedroom from PA which is 60+ miles away with no shot right now of getting NY Digital signals 26 miles away (Horrible location for OTA)


After being frustrated with several antennas including the Not So Smart RCA Ant2000, (It only picked up 1 digital channel in my living room), I decided to try something with my RS1982 UFO that I have been using in my bedroom My sole UFO (in a perfect sweetspot location next to my bedroom window) is now the primary antenna for all 4 TV's in my apt. And to my amazement, all 4 TV's can pick up every channel that my primary (bedroom) TV picked up!! My other 3 TV are set up with Tivax STB-8's while my bedroom TV did not require a converter I used a 3 way splitter to connect my Room TV, then I used 75 feet of Cable to get to my living room TV. Then I used a 25 foot cable through the floor to a 2 way splitter connecting a TV in my make shift gym. Then I connected another 50 feet of cable to get to my other TV in the family room/game room


I can't praise this UFO antenna enough!! For an indoor antenna to pick up 40+ (combined digital and analog) channels from mostly 60+ miles away was impressive enough. But for it to still have enough strength to bring every single channel out to my other 4 TV's with 2 splitters and over 150 feet of cable involved just blew me away?!!


For testing purposes I turned on all 4 TV's at the same time and had each TV on different channels (and flipped through channels to make sure they were all viewable). No issues whatsoever!!! All it took was finding the SweetSpot with the help of the Signal Meter of one of my Tivax Converters. I'm still amazed that this 1 Radio Shack indoor antenna is capable of this?? I was just about positive that splitting the signal from the RS-1892 would not work, or would not work well...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Eagle Aspen is available from Amazon...


$23.54 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25.


Just use a filler, maybe some coax cable or a splitter, etc.


If you have no windows in the basement, then amplification may help....but that will require some testing.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Polarican, thats great!


Thanks for the report!


----------



## mdyoung

I bought RS UFO model Monday to use at work to pick up the local digital stations. I have an Insignia 5 inch color TV on my desk. I work just outside of Baltimore and it picks up the digital versions of channels 2, 11, 13, 24, 45, 54 and 67. The things I like about this antenna are the remote and it remembering settings. You don't need to get out of the chair to adjust it, which is good at work, because you don't want to be dicking around with antenna when your supervisor walks by your cubicle. One other good thing about it for being used in an office is that people don't notice it as being an antenna.


----------



## arxaw

Here's the user manual for the "UFO" RS Model: 15-1892:
http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/uc/rs...1892_PM_EN.pdf



> Quote:
> _"1. Press to rotate the antenna until you get the best reception.
> 
> 2. Press + or - to select the gain level: 3 for weak, 2 for most, 1 for strong stations.
> 
> 3. Press and hold STORE until CH indicator flashes.
> *4. Enter the channel number.*
> 
> 5. Press STORE again to save.
> 
> 6. Repeat for each channel."_


*Question:* For *step 4*. do you enter the physical channel number or the virtual channel number, or does it matter?

IOW, is the number you enter just for reference purposes?


----------



## mdyoung




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/16344103
> 
> Here's the user manual for the "UFO" RS Model: 15-1892:
> http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/uc/rs...1892_PM_EN.pdf
> 
> 
> *Question:* For *step 4*. do you enter the physical channel number or the virtual channel number, or does it matter?
> 
> IOW, is the number you enter just for reference purposes?



Just for reference purposes. Since, I only needed two positions for all the channels in my area, I just set them as 01 and 02.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

arxaw, as mdyoung has stated, it is only a reference number for you, so that most people would be probably choose the virtual number. But like mdyoung, most people will only need 2 or 3 directions probably, (some just one and they can set it and forget it).


Hope this helps.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16345077
> 
> 
> arxaw, as mdyoung has stated, it is only a reference number for you...



Thanks.

I figured that's how it worked, but I sometimes tend to make things more complicated than they are!


----------



## introibo

I haven't been here for months.....

Over the winter, I got some plans and (don't laugh) built my own attic antenna. I previously had a TV top amplified rabbit ear thing. Well, here in New Haven county, I'm surrounded by hills, and frankly, getting in all kinds of stations is not really important, as I don't watch much - just the occasional news program or kids' show, so I don't want a rooftop antenna.


With this new antenna in the attic, I can position it to get WTNH New Haven and Channel 30 in New Britain (which I was never able to get before). If I reposition it, I get WTNH and the PBS Bridgeport station. Obviously New Britain and New Haven are totally opposite directions.


Question....a)if I get a splitter and attach my TV top antenna to the attic antenna, will I possible get in the PBS station (i.e. do TV top antennas "work" at a greater distance from the TV)? This station was fairly strong when it came in..

b)would it be preferable to attach a splitter to another attic antenna (I don't want to make another one..maybe one of those DB2 ones?)


My other option is to just go up the attic and reposition this one every time I want a specific show. At least I can watch the Kentucky Derby on Saturday!

Thanks.

Christina


----------



## EscapeVelocity

You might be better off with 2 antennas and an A/B switch. Combining signals of broadspectrum antennas without filters usually isnt a good idea.


Post your TVfool.com info, so we can help you better.


----------



## introibo

I can't seem to copy/paste my TV fool info here. Sorry.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

All you need to do is copy and paste the link.


----------



## PlanoRick

I love this thread but which indoor antenna should I go and buy to see if I can get HD off the air?


----------



## wreck58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PlanoRick* /forum/post/16375779
> 
> 
> I love this thread but which indoor antenna should I go and buy to see if I can get HD off the air?



Hi Rick,


I'm in very Far North Dallas (near Addison). Where I am, (about 27 miles from the Antenna farm) -- I'm on the fringe of getting adequate reception with amplified set-top antennas. I now get all channels, but need to reposition the antenna if switching between channels 21 and 27 (which carry the Mavs and Rangers). Looking at TVFool, after the Digital switch in June - these stations will all get stronger. I think the local stations have taken into account their signal strength for the Northern Suburbs -- I think an amplified set-top antenna is going to be fine!


----------



## introibo

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7f144002d5268b 


Here's the link - I thought there was a way to put my diagram on.


Christina


----------



## eljeffreynyc

Can anyone recommend a good indoor antenna? I have just tried the RS DA-5200 but it wont pick up any digital channels unless I hold it out the window although it says its an indoor/outdoor antenna, even with cheap rabbit ears I was able to pick up digital channels but they were breaking up alot so I decided to pick up a better antenna. Attached is my tvfool img. Thanks.


----------



## Lord_Zath

What station(s) are you looking for? You're probably having multipath issues. If the stations you want are from one direction, then you need a very directional antenna like the Terk or Silver Surfer...


----------



## magna2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *eljeffreynyc* /forum/post/16378613
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend a good indoor antenna? I have just tried the RS DA-5200 but it wont pick up any digital channels unless I hold it out the window although it says its an indoor/outdoor antenna, even with cheap rabbit ears I was able to pick up digital channels but they were breaking up alot so I decided to pick up a better antenna. Attached is my tvfool img. Thanks.



Eljeffreynyc,


As Lord_Zath stated, your problem with the RS DA-5200 is that you have multi-path issues. The RS DA-5200 is an omni-directional antenna and probably picking up signals bouncing off the buildings in NYC. It is best that you get a directional antenna like the Terk HDTVi or Silver Sensor if you can still find them. Because of your close proximity to the broadcast antenna, I would not recommend an amplified antenna.


The tvfool image that you posted is for dtv transmission prior to June 2009. Post June 2009, I believe some of the NYC channels will move back to the VHF-High frequencies. The Silver Sensor is UHF only so it would not pick up any VHF channels. Although the Terk HDTVi has dipoles and should pick up the VHF channels, I do not have any experience with how well the rabbit ears will do in a multi-path environment. If you can get antennas from a store that has a liberal return policy, it may be worth a try to get several types and just see which are keepers for your situation.


----------



## heebdawg16

Guys -


About to buy an antenna, my main goal here is to get fox, cbs, nbc, and abc, all in HDTV. My TV is located in the basement, which is at walk-out level to the backyard, but unfortunately that seems to face the opposite direction from where the signal towers appear to be located.


I would prefer an indoor antenna, because I have no idea how to install or wire an outdoor one on my roof. This is being installed in a middle-unit townhouse.


What antenna would you recommend in my situation? Can I get away with an indoor, or do you recommend I have a professional come install and wire an outdoor antenna for me?


Here is my TVfool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7f144bbe6b4532


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Introibo, you have very difficult situation, according to your tvfool. You would be advised to get out of the attic and onto the roof or the side of the house up high.


Either way, you could get a DB2 (Eagle Aspen cheaper clone) and point it at the between 116 and 199 degrees (probably closer to due South than SouthEast) and try to pick up ABC, Tel, PBS, and CW with it. Or better yet, try this Gray Hoverman out at a fantastic price... AntennaCraft G1483 or even a DB4. The DB2 might be pushing the limits, and if you are going to do it right, then maybe its better not to chince here, especially since the Gray Hoverman isnt that much more expensive.


Then you get yourself VHF antenna like the Winegard YA-6713 or better yet the Winegard YA1713 . I dont know if the FM only antennas have filters, but they are smack dab in the middle of the VHF Lo 6(CBS) and VHF Hi 7(Fox) spectrum and may work.....like this Winegard HD6055P or better yet the Winegard HD6065 And point it at CBS and Fox at 329 degrees.


Then get yourself a Channel Master 7777 amplifier and you can use this to combine both of the antennas into one cable.....both VHF and UHF frequencies amplified....and down to your TV.


You will only be missing NBC (ch. 30)(Real Channel 35), but you can spin whatever UHF antenna you decide on, in that direction if there is really something you want to watch on that station.


So that is 3 purchases


UHF Antenna - DB2 or DB4 or Antenna Craft Gray Hoverman

VHF (or FM) Antenna - Various Winegards

VHF/UHF Amplifier/Combiner - Channel Master 7777


Hope that works out for you. Dont forget to look for sweet spots.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

heebdawg,


You should have an easy time of finding an indoor solution.....I use an RS 1880 pointed south and the TV towers are 45 miles due north of me, and get serviceable reception, if not perfect all the time.


You have all UHF channels now, but some VHF Hi at 11 and 13 after the switchover. Getting over by a window will be helpful. You could swing a DB2 from suction cup hooks on the window. Or try a Philips MANT950, or MANT940(mount horizontally). Maybe first try a RS 1974 Budget RE&Loop(your signals are that strong even with your basement orientation). Remember to look for sweet spots.


If push comes to shove you can try the RS 1892 UFO.



You may be able to pick up some of those stations in the alternate market at 40 miles as well. Dont be afraid of a little trial and error. Buy from a place you can return. Good luck.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *heebdawg16* /forum/post/16382836
> 
> 
> ...What antenna would you recommend in my situation? Can I get away with an indoor...?



With your TVFool results, something simple indoor should work. Start with an inexpensive set top antenna model that is known to work well. Like this model .


Do not get an amplified antenna - it may overload some of your nearby signals, making reception _worse_.


----------



## Lazza

Hi. I currently use RS 15-1868 with generally acceptable results but reception can be quite erratic (signal strength fluctuations). On a lower floor I have a Philips MANT940 installed on my outdoor patio, with fine results (43 digital channels, consistent signal strength). With the RS 15-1868 kept indoors but higher up and connected to a modern tuner (2009 Toshiba LCD) I get only a couple less channels but like I said a few key channels get very erratic results.


And so, I am thinking perhaps of getting a better indoor antenna. The RS UFO (15-1892) looks good on paper because it would rotate to get the best reception per channel. Is such an antenna likely to keep a solid strength or is the more a function of the tuner? Or is it a case of "try it and see"? Any other suggestions?


Oh, and does the RS UFO work well with a Harmony remote? I would assume yes but I would hate for there to be an unpleasant surprise.


Thanks.



_Lazza



PS - I would prefer not having an antenna with annoying rabbit ears.


PPS - I did try using the MANT940 with my Toshiba LCD. The results were disappointing. The MANT940 seems highly directional. Perhaps with considerable effort I could have found the right location and angle to get decent results. But as an outdoor antenna it works fine for me.


----------



## arxaw

Not needing "annoying" rabbit ears on an indoor antenna would depend on the frequencies being used in your area. If you have some stations broadasting in the VHF band, you need them. The "UFO" antenna has rabbit ears, but RS conveniently doesn't show them in some pictures.


If an antenna works fine outside but not inside, you may have roof, wall or window materials that block, attenuate or reflect TV signals.


----------



## Lazza

Thanks. I didn't know the RS UFO had rabbit ears, .. ugh.


In my area there are only a couple of stations that are broadcast via VHF, and I understand a new broadcast tower is being built to improve the service (..not sure if they'll stay VHF). Perhaps I'm asking too much, but I want an indoor antenna that is both unintrusive and does not require minor adjustments all the time. What I love about my MANT940 is that is small and, when positioned correctly, brings in very consistent signals all the time. Unfortunately the MANT940 does not work well for me indoors.


Any other suggestions?


Thanks.



_Lazza


----------



## EscapeVelocity

MANT950 or RCA ANT806


Winegard SS-3000


Both hold out the possibility of picking up your VHF stations.


Do you have brick, stucco, or metal siding....all are bad for TV signals.


----------



## deltaguy

I was just about to suggest the SS-3000 also. It's only 5 inches tall and a good performer. You can see one on page 1 of this thread.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16386905
> 
> 
> Do you have brick, stucco, or metal siding....all are bad for TV signals.



Also, foil-backed foamboard insulation, metal roofs and energy-efficient windows with "Low-e" heat reflecting glass all degrade indoor reception.


----------



## Lazza

Thanks for all the tips, guys. At least I now know what to investigate.


And yes, my townhouse has a metal roof. Not sure if it is related, cell phone reception in my townhouse is virtually nil. It's a curious sight to see all my neighbors, and myself, march outside to do a call. A total pain.



_Lazza


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lazza* /forum/post/16390839
> 
> 
> ...And yes, my townhouse has a metal roof. Not sure if it is related, cell phone reception in my townhouse is virtually nil.



Absolutely related to the metal roof (and possibly other window/wall materials that block radio waves).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

This has been posted about before. Im saving the link here to add to the front page.

http://www.ricability-digitaltv.org....ch_results.asp 


This is the first Ive seen this...

http://www.digitaltelevision.gov.uk/...rements1.0.pdf


----------



## holl_ands

Unfortunately the UK government report doesn't name names....


----------



## Lazza

Further to my posts wrt difficulty with VHF reception, here is my TV Fool output:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7f14f88ceb360c 


My troubles are with stations 7.1 and 10.1. Notice that post-transition shows improved output from these broadcasting stations since a new broadcasting tower is being built. Should I expect noticeable improvement in reception? Since I only experience with these two VHF digital stations I am wondering if VHF is inherently more prone to interference? The VHF analog reception I get varies from fair to utterly awful. I have no issues with receiving UHF signals from any station within 35 miles of me.


I am mostly bothered by my inability to pull in 10.1 (ABC). For Fox I can get 29.1 instead of 7.1 despite the station being 20+ miles further out.



Thanks.



_Lazza


----------



## dreater

The TVFool results say you shouldn't have too much difficulty receiving what you want. And that's supported by the fact that the MANT940 works well for you downstairs, on your patio.


So why don't you either: 1) get a second MANT940, and mount it outside a second-floor window (same side of building as the patio); or 2) get a splitter, and run a coax line from your current MANT940 (in its current location) to your upstairs TV?


You're pretty obviously living in a dwelling that's attenuating signals rather dramatically - a metal roof, and likely a metal foil vapor barrier in the walls. You're probably not going to be satisfied with any indoor solution - especially since you're directly comparing the results to what you're getting from your MANT940, outside. You've had success with the MANT940 on the patio. Use the same solution upstairs.


----------



## Lazza

Thanks. Yes, installing an outdoor antenna is obviously the best functional way forward for me. But it is something I would consider only as a last resort because it would require a fair amount of effort (..it would be on the third floor of my townhouse, not the second floor). Having my MANT940 installed on my patio was a cinch because I simply hijacked existing coax cabling from my old DirecTV satellite.


Sticking with the indoor antenna idea, I'm thinking that mounting one by a window that is perched one floor about where my MANT940 is installed might be workable. Right now my RS antenna faces that window but it is 5-6 feet away. I am going to buy a longer coax cable to see if it helps. I suspect it will help some, but not enough.


Again the biggest problem is extremely volatility of the reception for station 10.1. My Toshiba television might show signal strength of 90% for one minute then drop to zero for a few seconds, then bounce around all values in between ... causing breakups and such. The effect on my DVDR, with a weaker tuner, is far worse ... often simply showing "no signal".



_Lazza



PS - the RS 15-1868 I use is clearly not best of breed amongst indoor antennas. Before I got the MANT940 I used it on my television downstairs. I had similar problems with channels 7.1 and 10.1 but not so severe, perhaps because the antenna was positioned (and facing) the large sliding glass door to the patio. Well then I moved the RS 15-1868 outside to the patio and the results were improved significantly, at least to the point where fluctuations in signal strength never caused pixellation. Of course this RS antenna was not meant for outdoor use, hence I went with the MANT940. I am now trying to recycle the RS 15-1868 for use upstairs. But I think its days are numbered.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah, it seems that your problem is in building materials that are interfering with your signal. The only way around this is to go to the window or outside (even just outside your window).


Another MANT940 may be the trick. Small and comes with all the goodies.


----------



## deltaguy

Here's a link about other forms of interference:

www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/tvibook 


I'm convinced that my amplified antenna is getting some form of this. Three channels from the same tower come in at 100%, 92%, and 40%. TVFool says that the channel reading 40% should come in best. I'm gonna try an fm trap first. Too bad there's never been an analog signal on rf 21, so I could see the type of interference happening.


----------



## spokybob

EV: I have noticed many Winegard GS 2200 showing up on the DBS mounts in ZIP 61231 & 61260. HD locals are still not available in Quad Cities on DISH, and many people have purchased new TV sets. I had the GW1100 on my roof & found it not suitable for UHF at 22 to 30 miles out. With WHBF returning to RF4, the amped model might work for people next month.


----------



## Lazza

Here is an update. I bought a nice 12 ft coax cable on sale at RS:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2284529 


Took my MANT940 from downstairs and tried it upstairs by the window. Although there were some positive results I gave up after a few minutes. The MANT940 is *HIGHLY* directional. A nudge of only a 1/2 inch can alter its performance significantly. Unless the MANT940 is firmly mounted it is unusable, IMHO. I wasn't willing to drill holes to mount the unit, at least not now.


I then took my RS 15-1892 and moved it right near the window. The results were significantly improved for the problem VHF stations 7.1 and 10.1, and I think they are good enough to keep things going until after the June date when analog broadcasts stop. Upgrading the antenna still sounds like an attractive alternative.


Thanks guys for your help.



_Lazza


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spokybob* /forum/post/16402926
> 
> 
> EV: I have noticed many Winegard GS 2200 showing up on the DBS mounts in ZIP 61231 & 61260. HD locals are still not available in Quad Cities on DISH, and many people have purchased new TV sets. I had the GW1100 on my roof & found it not suitable for UHF at 22 to 30 miles out. With WHBF returning to RF4, the amped model might work for people next month.



Sounds like a local installation outfit may be pushing them. As we talked about before(I think) I found these style antennas to be pretty good....as my friend had one out at the land on his camper. Although, someone was really down on these Winegard batwings(maybe it was you). Aparently, Winegard also came out with a UHF attachment for these batwings as well.


(I think you are right that these batwings are better on VHF than UHF.)

Wingard Wingman


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Lazza, the Philips MANT940 is not particularly directional. Its an omindirectional loop inside the plastic housing I believe. However, what you may be observing is the hot spot/sweet spot phenomenon, where signal patterns scatter and recombine making some points better than others for your antenna.


----------



## Bix

EV, is there any chance of you trying the RCA ANT2000 (Smart Antenna version of their flat antennas)?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

We are coming up on the one year aniversary of this thread which has averaged nearly 1000 hits a day. Unbelievable!


Yes I plan on doing another sweep perhaps this summer on the anniversary of the thread....just before the changeover June 12, or maybe this fall. I havent had time to investigate further lately.


----------



## Falcon_77

What is the best portable antenna that can cover both UHF and upper VHF channels?


I was considering the Terk HDTVi, but I'm concerned about its stability in a car. I don't expect an antenna to remain upright in a moving vehicle, but would be a plus.


Antennas relying on or requiring amplifiers won't work.


I'm currently using a Philips Silver Sensor for the task and it can work with stronger VHF signals, but isn't exactly ideal. Something that I can put on the roof of the car would be good as I usually conduct tests while stopped. I have a rabbit ear/loop combo as well, but it's just not good enough for UHF.


Thanks!


----------



## nicoge21




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/16384555
> 
> 
> Not needing "annoying" rabbit ears on an indoor antenna would depend on the frequencies being used in your area. If you have some stations broadasting in the VHF band, you need them. The "UFO" antenna has rabbit ears, but RS conveniently doesn't show them in some pictures.
> 
> 
> If an antenna works fine outside but not inside, you may have roof, wall or window materials that block, attenuate or reflect TV signals.



It's the exact opposite for me. My antennas work better INSIDE then outside. Isn't it crazy? Must be reflections.


Analog works great anywhere.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Falcon, the best portable UHF I know of is the classic single bowtie, maybe you can tie this together with your RE&Loop with a UVSJ and bypass the loop. However, I dont know how well it will respond in a moving car.


----------



## deltaguy

You know, I feel the classic bowtie goes best when paired with just rabbit ears. The dipoles are quite portable too. You just have to figure out a platform to employ them upon. The three-piece combo definitely outperforms the Silver Sensor for UHF reception. However, the best aim of the dipoles may be different for UHF vs VHF. I assumed the aim wouldn't be different for months, but it is here.


----------



## mdyoung

Yesterday there was a RS 1862 on Ebay and it sold for $76 dollars and change. Is the antenna worth that much or did someone get carried away bidding?


I bought an RS-1868 from Ebay and I hooked it up to an Insignia 7 inch portable TV I have at home and took it out into the yard to scan the channels. I live just outside Baltimore, MD and I was able to pick up all the local Baltimore channels and most of the Washington DC Channels. Now it didn't do as well in the house, but I will probably only use the TV out of the house anyway.


----------



## nicoge21

there only $59.99 at radioshack so whoever payed 76 got jipped


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That is an 1880.


----------



## haydeecm

I'm new and I have been contemplating going to OTA and dropping cable after realizing that most of what i watch is the big networks. So after reading some of this thread, I went to radio shack and got me the Budget Antenna 1874 which seems to be pretty well-loved in this forum. I was able to get exactly all of the channels in my tvfool plot that had the green background. Nothing more and nothing less. The problem is I would also like the next tier with the yellow background (KBTC, KWPX, KWDK, KHCV, KUNS). Specifically, I would love to have KUNS since this is a deal breaker for dropping cable.


So according to my tvfool plot in order to get the yellow background channels, I need to have an antenna in the attic. I was wondering if theres a chance I might get these with a peppier indoor antenna. i have no idea how to run wires from the attic and it sounds like a big pain.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I would try a Radio Shack 1892 UFO.....you should be able to do well with all those yellow stations with this amplified antenna....all of them are UHF too which is good. You do have one powerful VHF station PBS which should do fine with the Rabbit Ear VHF dipoles included on the unit. I would set 2 positions one for the stations in yellow at 140 degrees and on high power gain, and one for the stations 208 to 256 degrees at low power gain (or maybe just point at 140 on high power and the others will come in off the backside so you wont have to fiddle with the antenna position). Hopefully you wont overload the tuner on your more more powerful stations (this wont hurt the tuner, it just wont work or will break up like having a weak signal).


I think this has a very good chance of working well for you.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *haydeecm* /forum/post/16432337
> 
> 
> I'm new and I have been contemplating going to OTA and dropping cable after realizing that most of what i watch is the big networks. So after reading some of this thread, I went to radio shack and got me the Budget Antenna 1874 which seems to be pretty well-loved in this forum. I was able to get exactly all of the channels in my tvfool plot that had the green background. Nothing more and nothing less. The problem is I would also like the next tier with the yellow background (KBTC, KWPX, KWDK, KHCV, KUNS). Specifically, I would love to have KUNS since this is a deal breaker for dropping cable.
> 
> 
> So according to my tvfool plot in order to get the yellow background channels, I need to have an antenna in the attic. I was wondering if theres a chance I might get these with a peppier indoor antenna. i have no idea how to run wires from the attic and it sounds like a big pain.



The 1874 sounds like it performed exactly as expected, picking up stations not too far away. If you want to put an antenna in the attic and have a closet near or in the room behind the TV, it's easy to run the wire up into the attic from there. Just hang the antenna from the roof rafters on a pole. Even a broom handle will do. Attic antennas do not have to be grounded.


But if you want to try another indoor antenna, exchange the 1874 for the 1892 UFO that EV mentioned. If any indoor antenna will work for weaker signals, that one often will. The downside to it is that you *may* have to readjust it every time you change channels. Your TV tuner may also need to have the option that allows you to add channels to those found in the initial scan, either manually or auto-add.


The good thing about RS is they take returns.


----------



## Lord_Zath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *haydeecm* /forum/post/16432337
> 
> 
> I'm new and I have been contemplating going to OTA and dropping cable after realizing that most of what i watch is the big networks. So after reading some of this thread, I went to radio shack and got me the Budget Antenna 1874 which seems to be pretty well-loved in this forum. I was able to get exactly all of the channels in my tvfool plot that had the green background. Nothing more and nothing less. The problem is I would also like the next tier with the yellow background (KBTC, KWPX, KWDK, KHCV, KUNS). Specifically, I would love to have KUNS since this is a deal breaker for dropping cable.
> 
> 
> So according to my tvfool plot in order to get the yellow background channels, I need to have an antenna in the attic. I was wondering if theres a chance I might get these with a peppier indoor antenna. i have no idea how to run wires from the attic and it sounds like a big pain.



Have you tried putting the budget antenna in the attic? I'm able to go halfway down the yellows with the antenna in the attic and using an old amplifier (plus I'm 50 miles from broadcast stations).


My backup plan was going to be getting a ChannelMaster CM-7777 amplifier if the above setup didn't work for me. Since it has, I'm happy with how things are now. The nice thing about the 7777 is it'll merge two signals together, so you could buy a second antenna that's better suited to pulling what you want (KUNS is uhf, so a uhf antenna would greatly help things for you).


I also notice from looking at your TVFool report that KUNS and the other yellows are at a different compass heading. Have you tried orienting the antenna such that it's perpendicular to the compass heading? That's the best way to set up the antenna to pick up the stations you want. Also, be sure to mess around with the dipoles - different angles and lengths will change reception. But yeah definitely put it in the attic.


----------



## haydeecm

Thanks for your help, I am happy I posted. That compass part of it is what gets me, when all the stations seem like they are so close in miles.


i am hoping like the first person said theres a chance that they all come in the RS1892, since I can hear KUNS and the scan picks it up and channel 28 too, theres just nothing to see. I will try that UFO thing, its kind of scary ugly.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/16433426
> 
> 
> ...KUNS is uhf, so a uhf antenna would greatly help things for you.



That RS 1874 is VHF & UHF.


----------



## Lord_Zath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/16435920
> 
> 
> That RS 1874 is VHF & UHF.



yes, it has a basic uhf loop. I think you'd agree that a DB4 would be better at picking up uhf signal than the 1874


----------



## haydeecm

The remote-control-dness positioning of the UFO antenna be useless if you are using it with a OTA dual-tuner DVR, correct? I am assuming it can only output channels in one position at a time, even if you are recording two stations in different positions.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yes, but you may have success pointing it in one direction at the far week signals and picking up the strong ones off the backside. So you can set it in one position and forget it....thus you could use the dual tuner feature on the DVR.


----------



## nicoge21

Our local walmart just got a huge shipment of these. RCA ANT1050. Has anyone tested one and if so what would you say the max range of it is?











It's $14.97 at walmart.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16470152
> 
> 
> Our local walmart just got a huge shipment of these. RCA ANT1050. Has anyone tested one and if so what would you say the max range of it is?



The Batenna.


----------



## dattier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16470152
> 
> 
> Our local walmart just got a huge shipment of these. RCA ANT1050. Has anyone tested one and if so what would you say the max range of it is?



We're just under nine miles from the transmistters, and an ANT1050 is doing very well for us for both VHF and UHF *in a second-floor window*; it's not facing the transmitters head-on, but it does have a line of sight to them at very oblique diagonals.  (Specifically, it's in an east window, with its ends to the north and south, and the azimuths to the transmitters are 153° to Sears Tower [remind me to edit that when the building name changes] and 144° to the Hancock Center.  The builder of our house, as a joke I suppose, aligned the walls along the cardinal directions rather than making them parallel to the section lines, so a perpendicular to the antenna would be 54° or 63° away from the direct lines to the transmitters.)  There are trees in the way, and they've come into leaf the last couple of weeks, but the reception hasn't suffered at all, to go by the bar on the Zenith DTT901 CECB.  It does better than the TV's own rabbit ears and bow tie do atop the TV, largely I suppose because it's in the window.


The thing is floppy and will not stand on edge nor remain in position leaned against something unless there's something else to halt its slide.  Illustrations with it all seem to be of nailing it to a wall or taping it to a window.  I have it at the top of the lower window, leaning against the glass of the upper pane, the lock keeping it from slipping down and flopping to end up flat as it likes to do.


It was absolutely worthless on the first floor of the house, though, and generally I wouldn't try it where reception is not so good.


----------



## mdyoung

I bought the Radio Shack 1892 UFO to use at work. The guy in the next cubicle liked it so much he bought one too, but now every time he turns his on with the remote, it turns mine on too. LOL


----------



## Lazza

I just bought an RS 1892 UFO. The Winegard SS-3000 was suggested because it doesn't have annoying rabbit ears but once I looked at the UFO I thought I could live with it, and besides I could easily return it to RS if I didn't like it. Well I do like it. For 90% of the stations I can keep it positioned at one setting. For the remaining 10% I manually tune them in (I use a Zenith CECB) and program the channel on the UFO. Since I can program the UFO remote for use by my Logitech Harmony remote I can pretty well dispense with the dinky UFO remote. At any rate, I can just about get all the stations with the RS UFO that I can get using my outside MANT940. All these stations are less than 35 miles away.


Perhaps in the near future smart antenna technology will be more widely available. It would do all the dirty work I do in programming the RS UFO. But for now the RS UFO seems to be about the best indoor antenna out there.


Thanks EscapeVelocity for all the great information you have in this thread.


_Lazza


----------



## nicoge21

the UFO is basically like a powered multi-directional smart antenna. Seeing all these positive tests and reviews make me wanna go out to RS and grab one.


instead of getting up and messing with the antenna, you just press a button. How convenient is that?










BTW - Do the dipoles rotate 360 degrees or do they only turn left and right?


----------



## Lazza

The UFO's dipoles are restricted in its range of motion due to the position of the UHF saucer. But surprisingly, I had little difficulty in finding a position of these poles to retrieve my two problematic VHF stations. Perhaps this is because the UFO is amplified and my previous antenna (RS 15-1868) was not? Regardless, this UFO thing really rocks. The only real negative to it is its dinky remote. You'll want to ditch it for some universal remote.


However I did find an anomaly with my UFO. Much to my (pleasant) surprise, the UFO has two coax ports in the back. This is so you can use the antenna with two devices (eg, a television and a DVDR). There is a manual switch on the main unit (TV, AUX) to indicate where to send the signals. When I switch it to AUX it seems no signals are being sent. However when the switch is set on TV *both* ports receive signals, which is something I prefer anyway.



_Lazza



PS - I suggest calling your local RS to check on availability. Don't trust what the RS web site wrt availability. I wound up going to two stores and eventually picking up what they had on display. A third store I went to a week ago didn't carry them at all.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Wow! I didnt know that there was a shortage of UFOs.


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16151644
> 
> 
> I'm skeptical whether the Apex SM550 is even a true Smart Antenna.....
> 
> It only has one set of rabbit ears and a (too small) UHF loop around the clock,
> 
> so where are the multiple antennas?????
> 
> 
> From Best Buy's description, I would conclude it's a typical amplified antenna
> 
> that can plug into the CEA-909 Smart Antenna I/F...but *ONLY* to pick up DC power....
> 
> although perhaps they're adjusting the amplifier gain????
> 
> 
> BIG tip-off is the price is the same as a generic amplified rabbit ears
> 
> (so nothing left in the budget for a Smart Antenna electronics module).
> 
> 
> PS: Here's SM-550 on the Apex website:
> http://www.shop-apex.shoppingcartspl...87/6860063.htm



I have a Best Buy coupon that is about to expire, and went to a local (Portland, OR) Best Buy this afternoon to check out the SM550. Unsurprisingly, holl_ands is correct.


Apex's packaging is cleverly worded, but nowhere claims that the antenna is a "smart antenna." The only place where the phrase "smart antenna" appears on the box is the place where it states that the antenna can plug into either a standard input or a smart antenna input on a converter box.


As I was reading the box, a salesperson came over to help and volunteered that he had purchased that model for his own home use. He confirmed that the antenna is not a smart antenna and needs to be physically adjusted like conventional rabbit ears.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

New antenna....kind of...prbably pretty good.











ClearStream Convertible™


The ClearStream1 Convertible is optimized for the UHF band and high VHF band signals.


----------



## nicoge21




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16480450
> 
> 
> New antenna....kind of...prbably pretty good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ClearStream Convertible
> 
> 
> The ClearStream1 Convertible is optimized for the UHF band and high VHF band signals.



but does it filter out multi-path? I need something amplified that can really reject multi-path. The only candidate for that is a silver sensor but I cannot for the life of me find them in stores around here. Best buy is out and I don't order online....maybe something new will come out after june. Or I can keep looking around.


For the heck of it I bought one of those bat antennas for $12 just to add to my collection and to try out after the transition. Haha.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Amplified Silver Sensor PHDTV3 or Terk HDTVa. These really cant be beat for multipath rejection. They have the tightest beamwidth. Both of these are amplified....they also have non amped versions.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16480836
> 
> 
> but does it filter out multi-path? I need something amplified that can really reject multi-path. The only candidate for that is a silver sensor but I cannot for the life of me find them in stores around here. Best buy is out and I don't order online....maybe something new will come out after june. Or I can keep looking around.
> 
> 
> For the heck of it I bought one of those bat antennas for $12 just to add to my collection and to try out after the transition. Haha.



The C1C is a passive antenna. You can always add a high quality external pre-amp in the event you actually need an amp. Most indoor antennas with preamps use them to overcome negative gains and are, in general, pretty much crappy quality (noisy or susceptible to distortion).


I played with one yesterday in Kansas City at a family member's home. It was an easy location (7-15 miles from all towers) with all UHF stations and it picked them up perfectly in a second floor office. The most difficult one was KCPT (UHF-19, only 55 kW at about 14 miles) which required a slight readjustment of the position of the antenna.


The C1 Convertible is an evolution of the original C1. The base was redone to give the flexibility to use the antenna outdoors with the reflector, indoors with the reflector (it sits nicely on a shelf), indoors on a flat surface without the reflector, or hanging on a wall with no reflector (requires just the right conditions in order to work best). The indoors WAF is much improved if you can use it without the reflector.


Without the reflector, the C1C is bidirectional with a 70 degree beam width in each direction. With the reflector installed, it becomes more directional in the forward-facing direction with its maximum gain and best multi-path rejection.


The ClearStream antenna's tapered loop is still the best one I've seen for "cleaning up" multi-path. It isn't going to get any better.....


----------



## diehardz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16475915
> 
> 
> the UFO is basically like a powered multi-directional smart antenna. Seeing all these positive tests and reviews make me wanna go out to RS and grab one.
> 
> 
> instead of getting up and messing with the antenna, you just press a button. How convenient is that? [URL='http:/trafficreport/img/3721/k09f0423lglc/b.gif%5B/IMG']http://www.*****************/trafficreport/img/3721/k09f0423lglc/b.gif[/IMG[/URL] ]
> 
> 
> BTW - Do the dipoles rotate 360 degrees or do they only turn left and right?
> [/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I agree with you.
> 
> That's really a convenient one, based on their reviews


----------



## coxlgt1

Here's the link: (ok, first post, can't add the link)

Easy to find on mcm electronics site.


It's Stellar Labs Part #: A218-003/MCM Order #: 30-2160


It looks pretty close, Max amplification: 28 dB, $14.95. I have no experience other than maybe cables from Stellar Labs. Any thought's on this one ?


My current setup in Atlanta works pretty good, an old set of RE's and bowtie. The kind that used to come w/ TV's a long time ago that mounted to hole in the back of the tv via a shaft at the base of the RE's. I just cut a piece of 2x4 and drilled a hole in it for the shaft. It looks fine to me, but I'll probably be the only one who thinks that. I might give this MCM model a try.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *coxlgt1* /forum/post/16483626
> 
> 
> Here's the link: (ok, first post, can't add the link)
> 
> Easy to find on mcm electronics site.
> 
> 
> It's Stellar Labs Part #: A218-003/MCM Order #: 30-2160
> 
> 
> It looks pretty close, Max amplification: 28 dB, $14.95. I have no experience other than maybe cables from Stellar Labs. Any thought's on this one ?
> 
> 
> My current setup in Atlanta works pretty good, an old set of RE's and bowtie. The kind that used to come w/ TV's a long time ago that mounted to hole in the back of the tv via a shaft at the base of the RE's. I just cut a piece of 2x4 and drilled a hole in it for the shaft. It looks fine to me, but I'll probably be the only one who thinks that. I might give this MCM model a try.



It probably wholesaled from the factory in China for $2. You can guess what kind of electronics are in there.....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16480836
> 
> 
> but does it filter out multi-path? I need something amplified that can really reject multi-path. The only candidate for that is a silver sensor but I cannot for the life of me find them in stores around here. Best buy is out and I don't order online....maybe something new will come out after june. Or I can keep looking around.
> 
> 
> For the heck of it I bought one of those bat antennas for $12 just to add to my collection and to try out after the transition. Haha.



A narrow beamwidth suppresses multipath from buildings/bridges

between the desired transmitter and your location.

To reduce multipath, you also need high Front/Back Ratio, since worst multipath

"usually" comes in from rear reflections. Most indoor antennas do neither.....


The best you can hope for is an indoor antenna which has a significant NULL

that can be directed until it minimizes the multipath signal...without also

nulling out the desired signal, such as would happen with a typical UHF loop.

Hence the SilverSensor, Terk Klone and R-S UFO are good indoor performers.


The ClearStream C1C comes with a reflector which is MANDATORY in order

to provide a reasonable Front/Back Ratio...when you remove it for indoor use,

there is ZERO suppression of multipath coming from the rearward direction...

And it has a very wide beamwidth....enough said....


==================================

As the economy draws further down, stores are severely cutting back inventory....

If you don't figure out how to order off the internet, your options will continue to shrink.....


Ordering off the internet from REPUTABLE dealers can be just as safe as giving

your credit card to the minimum wage geeks at BestBuy....either can steal the number....


I have a separate credit card with a fairly low max limit I only use for internet,

so even if it gets messed up my primary card is unaffected.


I also check out lesser known websites:
http://www.resellerratings.com/


----------



## nicoge21

Yeah I'll probably get one of those reloadable visa cards and use one of those. I want the Terk HDTVa.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16480836
> 
> 
> I need something amplified that can really reject multi-path. The only candidate for that is a silver sensor but I cannot for the life of me find them in stores around here.



Since the original Silver Sensor is unamplified, I assume you are referring to the PHDTV3 . Have you checked your local Target store? I don't see it on their web site, but I have seen it at Target stores in my area. I haven't tried this antenna, but others here have had good luck with it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I need recommendations for the next roundup.


Walmart Batenna

Artec Antenna

Clearstream Convertible

GE Optima

Jensen TV920

GE Quantum

GE Millenium

Channel Master 4040


Anymore?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

There is a new Philips at Walmart as well.....like a replacement for the MANT510 or something.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10629541


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Maybe one of the RCA Smart Antennas....ANT2000 Smart Antenna


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16494491
> 
> 
> Maybe one of the RCA Smart Antennas....ANT2000 Smart Antenna



That's a dead product. While there is still inventory in the channel, it has been discontinued.


Check your PM.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16494485
> 
> 
> There is a new Philips at Walmart as well.....like a replacement for the MANT510 or something.
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10629541



Dead link.


----------



## holl_ands

Google search reveals a few RCA ANT2000's are left at www.beachaudio.com ,

which are also accessible via www.amazon.com and www.buy.com .


And factory refurbished units are available from www.solidsignal.com and eb*y.


----------



## holl_ands

PHDTV3 Amplified Silver Sensor (incl VHF rabbit ears) can be ordered for under $30:
http://www.google.com/products/catal...=tp#ps-sellers 


As I discussed earlier, advantage of Silver Sensor is the ability to point a null towards multipath,

whereas the UHF Loop in the above Walmart antenna can point a null towards multipath (usually

from the rear), which will ALSO result in a null towards the DESIRED station....


UHF Loops don't HAVE any usable Front/Back Ratio, whereas Silver Sensor does....

That is also true for Bowties until you add a REFLECTOR...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Damn, it seems like only yesterday that the ANT2000 delivery date kept on being pushed back.....now its discontinued? A 6 month shelf life?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16497386
> 
> 
> Damn, it seems like only yesterday that the ANT2000 delivery date kept on being pushed back.....now its discontinued? A 6 month shelf life?



Ask Best Buy what their return rate has been. That will give you an indication of why it's out of production.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Do you think the return rate is indicative of the complexity of the set up/system, or more to do with poor implementation of the late coming standards, or just a bad antenna design?


----------



## nicoge21




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16494485
> 
> 
> There is a new Philips at Walmart as well.....like a replacement for the MANT510 or something.
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10629541



I saw this antenna at walmart and it is HUGE including the box. Biggest indoor antenna I've ever seen.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Well, I just got back from Walmart and they didnt have any of the MANT510 replacements or the RCA ANT2000 Smart Antennas. They did have the Batenna, but I shied away at $14, though I could return it, I suppose.


Ill keep working on collecting the new group of antennas.


----------



## nicoge21

hey how well does the radioshack UFO unit deal with multi-path? I want to try one of these guys out and really see if it lives up to the hype. We have them in stock here so that's no biggie. If it doesn't work well I can always return it.


Thanks!


----------



## Lazza




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16508172
> 
> 
> hey how well does the radioshack UFO unit deal with multi-path? I want to try one of these guys out and really see if it lives up to the hype. We have them in stock here so that's no biggie. If it doesn't work well I can always return it.
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Compared to your requirements (based on your tvfool.com map) I have it easy with the UFO. It brings in all the "green" stations and a couple of "yellow". But everything on your map is yellow, or worse. Try it, and good luck.


The UFO doesn't do magic for me. It simply brings in all the stations that my other indoor antenna did but more reliably, and it can be more easily fine tuned. But I am not bringing in more stations; there are no "wow"s. Or rather, it does bring in more stations *than even my outdoor MANT940* when the weather is stormy. But the signal on those additional stations is always spotty. It's more of a curious anomaly than an advantage.



_Lazza


----------



## nicoge21

I was under the impression that yellow means you need an attic or outdoor antenna on your roof for any chance of signal. Not indoor antenna. Only the green = indoor.....All of them are under -35dB with no clear LOS which is why I always say I am in a terrible place for reception and nothing indoors will work to it's full potential for me.. I am able to recieve about 9-13 channels all somewhat reliably from an old junk amplified antenna I have pointing upwards towards the ceiling. If the tropo is right I get all of them rock solid but one of the PBS stations gets spotty at night. If I could go outdoors I really would but it's not really possible and I don't really want something outdoors. I was gonna put my coat hanger project outside but the weather will ruin it so I said forget it. DTV really seems like more trouble then it's worth. My situation I feel is what is also happening to alot of other people who live in bad terrain areas. We could always recieve pristine analog reception but for digital we either get the cliff effect or we are just blocked from LOS period. I am amazed at how well analog can bend over terrain compared to their digital counterparts. Antennaweb is very inaccurate (for me anyways). If I had the power to flatten out the terrain my problems would be solved but I have no control over that.


The only channels I care about are the yellowish. The pink I don't need. I have to point 203 degrees for most since they all come from the same direction. That's south-south west and my room is more on the east side.


----------



## kumo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16494461
> 
> 
> I need recommendations for the next roundup.
> 
> 
> Walmart Batenna
> 
> Artec Antenna
> 
> Clearstream Convertible
> 
> GE Optima
> 
> Jensen TV920
> 
> GE Quantum
> 
> GE Millenium
> 
> Channel Master 4040
> 
> 
> Anymore?



AntennaCraft G1483, mounted on or in front of an indoor wall. You have yet to test any Grey-Hoverman design, and I, for one, would like to see how it compares to some of the others.


----------



## Lazza

nicoge21, I can understand your frustration. But thankfully my experience with DTV is the opposite of yours. I am only able to pick 2-3 analog stations well, another 3-4 marginally well (still viewable), and about another dozen that are unviewable. However I can pick up 42 digital stations almost without issue; I should think in the coming years that number will double. It is because of this digital conversion I have canceled my DirecTV subscription.



_Lazza


----------



## EscapeVelocity

nicog, I think the RS UFO will work good in that signal range. You have one channel NBC on VHF Hi, and that will be the most difficult, with the rabbit ears section of the antenna. The UHF elements are much better on these small indoor antennas.


The DB2 and an amplifier would be good 2, or an Antenna Craft Gray Hoverman, or Clearstream 2.


The Winegard SS-3000, the Philips MANT 940, and the Philips MANT 950 could all be possible winners for you. If you have a clear path towards the south from a window or balcony, you can get in the window (or just outside of it with something like the MANT940), and that would eliminate any interference from building materials.


Those yellow range UHF stations are all very doable with these better indoor antennas.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I actually know of a person that got one more channel with teh MANT940 than the RS UFO, though both were big improvements on what they were using.....and they didnt have to fuss with it, like changing the direction of the UFO elements. Ive tried to make clear that YMMV, but a general reading of the antennas at the topside of the list as better than most is a truism. I also have confirmation that an Terk HDTVa user in the flat plains worked better than the UFO for distance for one fellow....which would be indicative of its tight beamwidth(high forward gain) and lack of environmental obstructions (trees and hills) in that area.


----------



## deltaguy

Include the 3-piece combo.










It's easier to aim, only 180 degrees to worry about. It's more kid-friendly, harder to break. Plus, it's the equal of a lot of the other indoor antennas.


----------



## haydeecm

I have been meaning to pick up a UFO, do they ever go on sale. I have been watching for about a month and hasnt budged from the $50 MSRP, maybe since Radio shack is the only place to get they dont need to ever discount these?


----------



## nicoge21

they must go on sale rarely because it's always been 49.99-59.99 when i checked. I'm really close to go getting one and trying it out.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ive never seen them on sale.


----------



## Lazza

A couple of additional comments on the UFO. Changing the channel, which would cause a change in the antenna's position, takes about 1-2 seconds. And it makes whirring sound. I think most people would find this action tiresome. For me I essentially keep the UFO at one position that is satisfactory for nearly all channels all of time. It is only when I encounter pixellation do I use the UFO remote to change channels or adjust the antenna. Just because the UFO lets you have an antenna position for every channel doesn't mean you have to program it for every channel. I suggest leveraging the flexibility of the UFO only when truly needed.



_Lazza


----------



## nicoge21

I thought you could actually see the orientations on the little screen, but reading the radioshack description it says it has 12 different positions? I thought you could actually enter in compass orientations


----------



## dattier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16515482
> 
> 
> I thought you could actually see the orientations on the little screen, but reading the radioshack description it says it has 12 different positions? I thought you could actually enter in compass orientations.



The UFO does not know in which compass direction it's facing; all it knows is the internal angle, relative to its casing, where the UHF antenna is pointing.  It displays a number in the range of 1 through 12 for that, and you can't wrap around from 12 to 1 nor 1 to 12; to get between the two ends you have to go past every number in between.


----------



## mdyoung




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *haydeecm* /forum/post/16513624
> 
> 
> I have been meaning to pick up a UFO, do they ever go on sale. I have been watching for about a month and hasnt budged from the $50 MSRP, maybe since Radio shack is the only place to get they dont need to ever discount these?



Find someone that has an Entertainment Book. I think most have a Radio Shack coupon in them that's $10 off $40.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is an RCA mini yagi...ANT751










http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10828410 


Here is an RCA ANT800










http://www.beachaudio.com//Ant800-p-260216.html 




Anybody know of what is the difference between the


RCA


ANT1400

ANT1450


ANT1500

ANT1550


and


ANT1600

ANT1650


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Still working on acquiring the


Jasco Millenium

Antennas Direct C1 Convertible

Jensen TV920


----------



## Falcon_77

What happened to the classic Silver Sensor (Zenith/Philips design)? I am referring to the simple one, UHF only, that is an Antiference clone. Is it out of production?


I have seen them in Fry's recently, but no one else seems to be selling them any more. Of course, since it doesn't have any performance to speak of for upper VHF, perhaps it's been phased out. However, some markets, such as Salt Lake City will remain UHF only.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That one is readily available online still. Ive never seen it in a local store. The amplified version, used to be in target, but when I went looking for it, all they ever had was an empty space. Havent checked lately, even the empty space may be gone now.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Damn, just missed an RCA ANT2000 on the bay for $30. It just occurred to me, I dont have a smart antenna interface. I sold the RCA 800.


----------



## TalkingRat

Haven't been here awhile, looks like I have to plan some catch-up time.


I took a quick peek, and didn't see any reference to a Smart Antenna document I just spotted, so here's a link to the NAB final Report on the development work on Smart Antennas with Antennas Direct. It includes a picture of the prototype. Article is dated May 6, 2009, and titled: "Final Report - New Indoor Smart Antenna System Using a Single-Wire Interface"




http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB_Final...ev_Public2.pdf


----------



## nicoge21

do you mean the one with the black stand? i think that one was discontinued, it wasn't amplified, and it was UHF only. Amazon still has it, but the only one you'll really find in stores now is the Terk HDTV-i and the HDTV-a. The one with the silver stand.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks to ProjectSH089, and Steve at Antennas Direct Tech Support, Antennas Direct will be shipping out a ClearStream Convertible and a PA18 amplifier for testing and review.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lazza* /forum/post/16514623
> 
> 
> ... Just because the UFO lets you have an antenna position for every channel doesn't mean you have to program it for every channel.



Many places have only one or two antenna or antenna farm locations. So, a couple of gain/direction settings at most, is probably sufficient in most cases.


The problem is VHF chs in more than one location.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

 AntennaCraft 4 Bay G1483 Gray Hoverman on the way.


Ive got a CM 4221(American Made), CM4220(American Made), AD DB2, and a AD CS1 Convertible to test this against.


----------



## nicoge21

all my towers are in 1 spot with exception of a few independent stations


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Ken Nist updated the HDTVPrimer Antenna Comparison webpage:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html 

including recent updates to the new antenna webpage:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks hollands, that is great stuff. My half assed testing confirms the placement of the C2 as just better than the DB2 for the new UHF spectrum. However the revelations on VHF Hi with regards to the C2 are new to me, though not unexpected. I have a VHF digital now at 45 miles on channel 7 to gauge VHF performance.


Thanks again.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I found this interesting......from the HDTVprimer page . Thanks holl_ands, and to Ken the HDTVprimer dude.



> Quote:
> Beam widths (to the 3 dB points, for channel 30):
> 
> 
> ClearStream 2 72º
> 
> Silver Sensor 64º
> 
> DB2 56º
> 
> CM4221 55º
> 
> 
> 
> AntennasDirect ClearStream 2
> 
> 
> This is an excellent antenna. It is roughly the same size and performance as the DB2. Since the DB2 is the reigning champion of indoor antennas, and since the “C2” is a tiny bit better, the C2 is the new champ. (The DB2 has more bandwidth, but with the new channel lineup this is no longer important. The DB2 would be stronger than the C2 if made a little bigger, but in relation to size the C2 would still win.)
> 
> 
> AntennasDirect continues to think this is an outdoor antenna, and ships it without a stand. If you buy this antenna for indoor use, you will have to devise something to hold it up. If you are in a poor-signal area and are forced to use an indoor antenna, the C2, DB2, and 4220 are your best choices. The C2 is the only one of these without a poke problem around little children, so you should buy the C2.
> 
> 
> This author continues to believe that a 4-bay is generally a better choice for an outdoor antenna.
> 
> 
> The antenna elements are too small to have any response to VHF. And in case a really strong VHF signal sneaks in anyway, the UHF-only balun will filter it out.



Picture of the interior loops....











Gain comparison DB2 vs CS2...











Looks like the CS2 has better gain at lower UHF and a wider beamwidth than the DB2 across the spectrum. The CS2 may be a better solution for my roof. Hmmmm....


Great point about the poke-ability and little children for indoor use, making the CS2 a better option than the double bowtie DB2, but there is always the keep inside a cardboard or shipping box option.


See HDTVprimer page for abysmal performance of CS2 on VHF Hi.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is more good information from the HDTVexpert.com, on the CS1 and CS2 from Antennas Direct along with the Channel Master 2016 yagi, and an amped and unamped Winegard SS-1000/2000. He didnt have much success with the CS2 and CS1 on VHF either. The CS1 looks to have done very well with the CM 7777 amplifier....nearly as good as the CS2+same amp, at his location.


Five (Antennas) To Get Ready


PETER PUTMAN, CTS

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/Five_Antennas.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Interesting antenna from Antennas Direct in the works.


VHF Hi compact loop antenna.....the ClearStream5 .












> Quote:
> Incorporating the same compact engineering which distinguishes the ClearStream family, the C5 is targeted specifically for the high VHF band. (Ch7-13 ; 174 -216 MHz) Purpose built for high VHF, the ClearStream 5’s efficient, compact design offers excellent gain and impedance matching across the whole post 2009 VHF DTV spectrum. The ClearStream 5 is superior to existing combination antennas for receiving VHF DTV signals and offering good directivity with a peak gain of 8.4 dBi.
> 
> 
> This leap forward in efficient design allows up to 90% of the available broadcast signal to actually reach the incoming antenna cable rather than being lost to impedance mismatches. They are engineered for extra strength and durability, using anodized aluminum for corrosion resistance and are easy to assemble.
> 
> 
> Intended to compliment existing UHF antennas, the C5 will include a low loss UHF/VHF signal combiner.
> 
> 
> With 24% of the American DTV stations moving to a high VHF assignment there exists a need for high VHF antenna that is compact yet powerful.
> 
> 174- 216 MHz (Channels 7 -13)
> 
> Max gain: 8.4 dBi VHF
> 
> Range: 65 Miles +
> 
> Impedance: 75 Ohm output F connection
> 
> Size: 20” h x 24”w x 6”d
> 
> 90% efficient at 200 MHz 100% compatible with all ATSC tuners
> 
> Smallest high gain VHF antenna on the market
> 
> New Engineering for core VHF DTV frequencies (Ch 7-13)
> 
> East to Assemble
> 
> No Extra transformers needed
> 
> Lifetime Warranty
> 
> Assembly Instructions



Link to pdf Manual with Gain Chart ...


Promising gains of 6db is pretty substantial over Rabbit Ears. Not too big at 20x24x6.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16546486
> 
> 
> Interesting antenna from Antennas Direct in the works.
> 
> 
> VHF Hi compact loop antenna.....the ClearStream5 .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link to pdf Manual with Gain Chart ...
> 
> 
> Promising gains of 6db is pretty substantial over Rabbit Ears. Not too big at 20x24x6.



Dan,


The C5 is the same outside dimension as the C4 with about 3 times the depth between the reflector and the active element.


It should be available in about 4 weeks (give or take).


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16546305
> 
> 
> I found this interesting......from the HDTVprimer page . Thanks holl_ands, and to Ken the HDTVprimer dude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Picture of the interior loops....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gain comparison DB2 vs CS2...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the CS2 has better gain at lower UHF and a wider beamwidth than the DB2 across the spectrum. The CS2 may be a better solution for my roof. Hmmmm....
> 
> 
> Great point about the poke-ability and little children for indoor use, making the CS2 a better option than the double bowtie DB2, but there is always the keep inside a cardboard or shipping box option.
> 
> 
> See HDTVprimer page for abysmal performance of CS2 on VHF Hi.



Ken over at HDTVprimer noted a few weeks back that the C2, for indoor use, needs a stand or mount. AD released a new version of the C2 two weeks ago that includes their 20-inch J mount (intended for outdoors use) called the C2-CJM on their website. While the current CJM isn't aesthetic for indoor use, it can be placed on a 6 X 6 base of the customer's choice and then will make a decent indoor antenna. Ironically, Best Buy in MEXICO will stock this version but not the US stores. ( I guess that BB-USA didn't want to pay a couple of extra bucks for the upgrade option). They are also working on a molded plastic base that will be both aesthetically acceptable and functional for indoor placement with a ready-to-use indoor package. Still in the works right now.


They are also looking at modifying the molding of the C1 & C2 base cone so that the coax cable is easier to attach and will not be strained laterally once attached.


For all the simulations that Ken has done on the ClearStreams, it appears that he has still overlooked incorporating (in his simulations) the publicly stated method of achieving a measure of high-VHF reception on these antennas - feed-line radiation. My own hands-on testing shows far better results than his simulations would suggest possible... If time permits, I may do some additional experimenting over the next week or two.


----------



## arxaw

Why does AD insist on rating gain in dBi ?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/16547756
> 
> 
> Why does AD insist on rating gain in dBi ?



Why do YOU insist on something else? How do YOU rate the antennas from YOUR company. Oh, you probably don't have one (wish I did...)...


dBi is used by professional antenna designers and multiple antenna manufacturers, including AD, Blonder-Tongue, Wade, Dehli, and Televes as a technical specification. It is what it is.


I ran across a posting by the ower awhile back on one of the other forums (forget which one, perhaps one the Canadian ones) in which he answered this question. He concluded that arguing with forum posters who had their own opinions but no skin in the game wasn't a very productive use of his time and consequently doesn't usually bother....


----------



## arxaw

I seem to have struck a nerve.


----------



## holl_ands

An engineer will poke dBi into a Gain/Loss Equation...or a Propagation Prediction Program

or most anything else related to antenna gain....because it's gain relative to a theoretical

antenna that would propagate in ALL DIRECTIONS EQUALLY....an "isotropic" antenna.

It's also what comes out of the NEC antenna simulation programs....


On the other hand, dBd is RELATIVE to the screwy (3-D donut) dipole antenna pattern:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Communi...stems/Antennas 


So if an engineer tries to calculate the received signal level coming in from say 45-deg

elevation (a typical problem for aircraft and in H.F. band), it would involve taking

the antenna's specified dBd gain numbers and doing a 3-D recalculation to find

the requisite 3-D dBi gain numbers....bletccchhhh....


The REAL question is why do C-M and W-G (still living in the '50's) still insist on

using dBd when nearly every other antenna manufacturer has been using dBi?????


----------



## arxaw

holl_ands,

Thank you for an explanation vs a rude personal attack.


I now have one more reason to not buy any products from antennas direct.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

This one from Australia looks ugly enough to be a winner.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Just picked up one of these. Looks kinda like the RS 1880. We'll see how it stacks up.


----------



## nicoge21

All these amplified indoor antennas, do they really have the gain it claimson the box? there's one by RCA that says it has 55dB but i wonder if it's really true or not


----------



## holl_ands

If it really were 55 dB, it would easily overload your tuner's input....


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Amplifiers are rated power at some distortion figure at a certain frequency into a load. These numbers can be manipulated.


----------



## Lord_Zath

It's probably 5.5 db


also, antennas don't uniformally detect signal - the peak gain might be 5.5 db (or 55db), but only on a specific set of frequencies.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is an interesting vintage UHF antenna. Bowtie style with a director and a reflector, it looks like.


----------



## nicoge21

the one that says it has 55dB is the RCA ANT1251


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Philips MANT510 does also.


----------



## JNinCA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16552749
> 
> 
> Just picked up one of these. Looks kinda like the RS 1880. We'll see how it stacks up.



That thing looks a lot like an RS 1880. I wonder where they are getting it? I assume they are just resellers, since their Lava a468 looks to be a rebranded Cornet 645.


Did you ever find out the difference between the RCA ANT1400, 1500 and the ANT1600? I know the ##50s are the ones with the inline amp, but I've never found out how the new 1600/1650 is better than the 1500/1550. Even the RCA web site doesn't have the 1600 yet.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

China, no doubt, Ive looked into importing some antennas myself.



The 1400 and 1450 are smaller than the 1500 and 1550. The 50 denoting an amplifier.


Maybe the 1600/1650 is even bigger, I dont know.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a video produced by AVSforum member jwwm_2, of the improved design of the 4 bay advanced and tested by AVSforum mclapp on the How to build a UHF antenna thread. This desian uses wider spacing and longer elements to increase gain in the heart of the newly shrunken TV UHF band spectrum, and also has gain on UHF High. Much improved version of the 4 bay bowtie. There is a great comparison between this design and the famous Youtube Coathanger Antenna right at the beginning.

A Better HDTV Antenna


----------



## EscapeVelocity

 RCA ANT751 on the way.


----------



## jemor9

I have been using this RCA ANT 1400 Flat Panel Antenna for about 4 months now. I am very happy with the results from it.


I live in an 6 floor apartment building on the 2 nd floor and there are a lot of tall buildings around me. I feed the out of the antenna into a 25 db amp and i get 12 digital stations with it just laying in the window.


I have not moved it around to see if i could get more channels yet ( read lazy here ) !


It gets HD signal that is 25.5 miles away down in this concrete hole i am in. I think that is pretty good. I am trying to design a way to mount a high gain out door antenna on a stand near my apt. window with a rotor and see if there is any improvement !


So i would give the RCA ANT 1400 a 8.5 out of 10 stars.


----------



## haydeecm

hello, I am a beginner and have just started testing antennas in order to see if we can drop Comcast. In the last month I have tried 3 antennas: an Artec antenna from meritline that came bundled with my converter for $4, the $12 1874 budget antenna from Radio Shack and the $50 Radio Shack amplified UFO antenna. After hearing such rave reviews about the UFO, and playing with it for a few days, I can honestly say I cannot tell the difference between this antenna and the other 2, I seem to get the same amount of channels. In fact, when i turn off the amplification on the UFO the fringe channels look about the same as when the amplification is on. I know that there is an elevation problem that is keeping me away from a perfect picture of the channel I want.


My question is I keep hearing people saying how signal went from 70 to 90%, how exactly do you measure that? And would it be better to keep the more expensive antennas because they are less likely to pixelate in bad weather or some other reason that is obscure to me, or is this just a YMMV type of situation where its okay to keep the cheaper one. I am so disappointed, had such high hopes for the UFO.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Post a link to your TVfool. And tell us what stations you are getting with the antennas. Which one you are trying to get. And where you are located....in a basement, condo, house, etc. What is this elevation thing you are on about?


The short answer is that sometimes the basic RE&Loop is the best antenna solution for some people.


The TVfool will tell us a lot.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Great CECB test data and other information.


Hat Tip Holl_ands.



> Quote:
> Also note that NAB/MSTV tasked MSW (Meintel, Sgrignoli & Wallace) to perform
> 
> Lab Tests on a number of CECBs to verify that they met NTIA requirements:
> http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%2...y-report1.html
> 
> Also note User Guides for 20 CECBs....and interior photos in the Summary Report.


----------



## haydeecm

 This is what my TV fool looks like 


i had posted before and got recommended the UFO antenna. I am able to receive really well all the yellow channels, but nothing else. I really would like to get KUNS, the analog of which comes in snowy. The UFO antenna did not make any difference, whether amplified or not, worked as well as the other artec meritline $4 antenna and the 1874 radio shack budget antenna. So I am pretty disappointed.


The reason i cant get KUNS is that I am a tad lower in elevation than my neighbors between me and the tower, but since I can get so much of the signal, I kind of expected better from the UFO. I guess now I am just accepting i might have to live without this channel, so dont know if there is a reason to keep the UFO thing. I hate I need to plug it in.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Oh, I remember you. Sorry.


Did you try moving the antenna around to find a sweet spot, especially if you have obstructions warping the em radiation patterns? Over by the window. Stick it out the window and see if that helps.....never can tell what building materials you or your neighbor have that might be monkeying up the signals.



And just to make sure, you did spin the UHF elements around in the disc right. position 1 is just to the left of 12 oclock and position 12 is at 12 oclock when facing the front of the unit looking down on it. So you can set it to 12 and then point the back of the unit towards the 140 degrees SouthEast.


----------



## Lord_Zath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *haydeecm* /forum/post/16568895
> 
> This is what my TV fool looks like
> 
> 
> i had posted before and got recommended the UFO antenna. I am able to receive really well all the yellow channels, but nothing else. I really would like to get KUNS, the analog of which comes in snowy. The UFO antenna did not make any difference, whether amplified or not, worked as well as the other artec meritline $4 antenna and the 1874 radio shack budget antenna. So I am pretty disappointed.
> 
> 
> The reason i cant get KUNS is that I am a tad lower in elevation than my neighbors between me and the tower, but since I can get so much of the signal, I kind of expected better from the UFO. I guess now I am just accepting i might have to live without this channel, so dont know if there is a reason to keep the UFO thing. I hate I need to plug it in.



KUNS is also in an opposite direction from most of the channels you probably are getting. So you'll probably need to tune to it manually whenever you want to watch it. I agree with EV - double-check that it's set up properly. ALso, where is it? The attic? The higher you can put it, the better you'll be.


As for the other antennas, did you try tuning them to KUNS first? In other words, use a compass and make sure the antenna's pointing 123 degrees (UHF element is perpendicular to your compass direction).


Have you tried an amplifier? Picking up a CM-7777 might help resolve the issue as well...


----------



## haydeecm

I dont think i need to manually tune anything, since I can pick up the channels from Seattle no matter what position I put the antennas, I think the signals are pretty good from there, so I only care about KUNS right now. I have played with the settings and pointed it and it seems to get better, but signal never gets good enough to pick up the digital signal, but I find the analog half-watchable. But I do agree if I play with it the signal gets better, however the antenna cable is not long enough for me to place the antenna by the window. I am assuming probably someone sells an "coaxial extender" out there so I have more room to move and play with the antenna, so should probably try to locate one of those.


Would an amplifier like CM-7777 make a difference if I am not seeing a difference between UFO with the amp on vs amp off. I take it these are much stronger amps than UFOs.


I am just so surprised how little (if any) difference the UFO made, but maybe I should try to locate a longer cable first.


Thanks very much for your help, hoping to dish comcast soon!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I wouldnt mess with adding a CM 7777 amp to the UFO. The internal amp is good enough.


Even a few inches can make a difference in finding a sweet spot.


----------



## Lord_Zath

yeah I guess I missed that part!


the 7777 wouldn't play well w/the ufo


----------



## holl_ands

*RCA ANT751 Bottom View Photo* I also took at CES2009:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...//P1040183.JPG 

Click on image to see higher rez...

Here's an easy link to the side view I posted earlier:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...A%20ANT751.JPG 


Look at the Driven Element (the one with thumbnuts for antenna connection).

I'm still puzzling out what the two short stubs might do...the ones that seem to go

part way forward and backwards, but not quite making contact to adjacent elements....


----------



## EscapeVelocity

It looks to me like there are 4 active elements on that antenna.


The 2 rear and the UHF folded dipole and the element directly behind it.



Can you give me a rundown on what each element is doing on that antenna holl_ands?


----------



## holl_ands

I'll start from the big end and work my way "forward" through the RCA ANT751.

There aren't any Hi-VHF Reflector elements, although whatever it is mounted to

might act as a reflector (although perhaps not at the "optimum" distance).

Obviously the Hi-VHF Elements serve as Reflectors for the UHF section....

and the UHF Elements serve as additional Directors for the Hi-VHF section.


=================================

1. Active Hi-VHF Element, fed from Element#2 by Crossover Feedline.

These two elements form a basic Hi-VHF Log-Yagi "Cell".


2. Active Hi-VHF Element, fed from Element#4 via Non-Crossing Feedline.


3. Passive Hi-VHF Director, bonded to metal boom.


4. Passive Hi-VHF Director, bonded to metal boom.

[Let's hope there is no connection via the short stub from Element #5.]


5. Active UHF Folded Dipole Driven Element, 300-to-75-ohm Balun connects via thumbnuts.


6. If it is connected via stubs to Element #5, then it's an Active Element forming a Log-Yagi Cell

for UHF....but separation seems too close....

If not, maybe it's a UHF Passive Director that also helps to control SWR (so why bother to insulate it.....)


7. UHF Passive Director, bonded to metal boom.


8. UHF Passive Director, bonded to metal boom.

*When someone gets one, let us know what the exact dimensions are so we can model it.*


==================================

A Log-Yagi Antenna is a hybrid, taking a 2 (or 3) Element LPDA (Log Periodic Dipole Array)

and adding Yagi type Reflectors and Directors. More re LPDA:
http://glendash.com/Dash_of_EMC/Log_...g_Periodic.htm 

Advantage of a LPDA design is ability to cover extremely wide bandwidths, although at

the expense of max gain....and a large number of elements.

Advantage of Yagi is good max gain, but limited bandwidth.

Hence Log-Yagi Hybrid attempts to meet somewhere in the middle....with cost minimized...


Further info is available (requires FREE registration): www.cebik.com 


If you're interested, a LOGYAG calculator can be downloaded:
http://www.qrz.com/download/antennas/index.html 


FYI: W-G YA-1713 LogYagi NEC Sim analysis:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/wgya1713


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16573574
> 
> *When someone gets one, let us know what the exact dimensions are so we can model it.*



I have an EZ HD, which appears identical to the new RCA. I believe I understand which measurements you need... I will measure it tonight and report back.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16573124
> 
> 
> Look at the Driven Element (the one with thumbnuts for antenna connection).
> 
> I'm still puzzling out what the two short stubs might do...the ones that seem to go
> 
> part way forward and backwards, but not quite making contact to adjacent elements....



If the links for holl_ands photos are broken, I have posted close-ups of the stubs in another thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=9426 


They appear to be UHF isolation stubs, that are usually 1/4 wave at the blocking frequency; both sections of the antenna will pick up UHF---one source must be eliminated before being combined.


Reference:

TV Antennas and Signal Distribution Systems by M. J. Salvati

section on Isolation Networks pp 86-87

Howard W. Sams 1979 #21584

ISBN 0-672-21584-5











Look for a used copy. Anyone who is interested in TV antennas should have one. It's worth the hunt.


More references:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=7164


----------



## holl_ands

The "Made in USA" EZ-HD appears to be a dead ringer for the RCA ANT751:
http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...v_Antenna.html 
http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...nna_image.html 
http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...nna_image.html 


I can sorta make out the short stubs, but hard to say whether they are connected or not.


----------



## dreater

Yeah, dead ringer... right down to the yellow label with red and black printing on the boom.


----------



## nicoge21

My favorite basic loop and dipole (no amplifier) antenna is the RCA ANT111. I have successfully pulled in 2edge stations with it while having it laying horizontally on top of a window rather then standing up. I noticed that I always get better reception when I have the antenna i'm using (various types) in a horizontal position instead of having it stand up.


It's amazing what it can do and the price is great. I'd imagine it would work superb for a city viewer. (


----------



## nicoge21




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16562548
> 
> RCA ANT751 on the way.



if this antenna is small enough i bet you could use it indoors if you nailed it into a wall or something. Are you gonna try it indoors out out?


----------



## IDRick

Holl_ands, here are the measurements. (hopefully they are clear and understandable).


Dimensions of EZ HD, starting at front


Center of first element is located 1-1/8 inches from front end. First element is 6-1/8 inches long and 1 inch wide. It is riveted to top of boom, drops down 1/8 " along the side and then extends straight out.


Center of second element is located 5-5/8 inches from front end. Second element is 6-1/8 inches long and 1 inch wide. It is riveted to top of boom, drops down 1/8 " along the side and then extends straight out.


Center of third element is located 8-5/8 inches from front end

Third element is 11-1/4 inches long and 1 inch wide


Center of folded element is located 10-1/8 inches from front end

Folded element material is 1/2" wide

Length from balun connection to start of 45 degree angle is 4-1/8 inches

Each angled portion of folded element is 1" long and the joined portion extends another 1" The balun connect posts are 1-3/4" apart


Short stubs are 1/2 inches wide. They extend over the third element and first tubular element but do not touch the elements or the boom. The center of the short stub is riveted to the folded element, the feedline to second element from REAR and a plastic insulator. The short stubs have a flat piece that is 1-1/2 inches long (extends over 3rd element), a 45 degree piece that is 1" long, a flat piece 1 inch long (rivet is in center of this), another 45 degree angle 1" long, and a flat part that is 2" long (extends over first tubular element). The short stub starts 7-5/16" from front of antenna and ends at 13-3/4" from front of antenna. The feedline rivets (attached to folded element) are 1-3/4 inches apart OC.


The feedline between folded element and 2nd element from REAR is 9-3/4" (OC on rivets) and 10-3/8" in total length. It is 3/8" wide.


First tubular element from front is 25-1/2" long (includes both sides and boom). Each side element is 12-1/8 inches long. The first tubular element is 13 inches from front (oc on rivet).


The second tubular element from front is 26-1/2 inches long (includes both sides and boom). Each side element is 12-5/8 inches long. The second tubular element is 16-5/8" from front (oc on rivet).



The third tubular element from front is 29 inches long (includes both sides and boom). Each side element is 14 inches long. The third tubular element is 19-3/4" from front (oc on rivet).


The fourth tubular element from front is 34-1/4 inches long (includes both sides and boom). Each side element is 16-1/2 inches long. The fourth tubular element is 30-1/8 " from front (oc on rivet).


The cross overs between the third and fourth elements are made with 1/4" wide material. They are 2-3/4 inches apart (oc at 3rd and 4th elements). The cross overs are 1/2" away from boom (on side) and 1/4" away from boom (top & bottom). The total length of the each crossover is 14 inches. Do you need the length of each segment? If so, they are 2", 1" at 60 degree angle, 1" at 60 degree angle, 6 inches, 1" at 60 degree angle, 1" at 60 degree angle, and 2 inches.


The third and fourth tubular elements are above the boom (top side) while the first and second tubular elements are riveted to underside of boom.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks very much for the detailed description holl_ands and the links to more info.



The Winegard 7000R seems a very similar setup and has some gain figures and front to back ratios at specific frequencies across the UHF and VHF spectrum, posted at Winegards site. The sizing and spacing seems the same or very similar but with elongated VHF elements to increase VHF Lo performance, I suppose. It even has the "stubs" you are talking about.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here picks of the AntennaCraft G1483 Gray Hoverman. Dissappointed in the build quality. It has flimsy supports from the main tube, and the thin aluminum elements are super easy to bend and came that way in the box...I had to reshape the ends. The AD DB series put this one to shame, with its thick aluminum standoffs from the reflector screen and thick not easily bent aluminum whiskers.


----------



## holl_ands

Winegard 7000 may appear "similar" to HD-EZ and ANT751, but it's THREE times wider to cover down to Ch2.


----------



## holl_ands

*IDRick re EZ-HD:* I'm very close to making some runs...but a few more questions:


1. Diameter of tubular elements--don't assume they're all the same.

Try to be as accurate as you can, preferably using calipers.


2. What are boom dimensions - 1.00"x1.00"???


3. How far are the elements offset vertically above or below the boom??

Measure from boom to centerline of the element.


4. What is vertical offset of the top, middle & bottom parts of the Folded Dipole???


5. On the third element from the front, are the two halves electrically interconnected

(it may be hidden)??? Are they electrically connected to boom, elements or stubs???


6. For each element insulated from the boom, what is the closest metal-to-metal

Gap between the two halves of the element???


7. What is boom overhang distance measured from the center of the longest element???


8. Did the EZ-HD come with a standard 300:75-ohm Balun or some sort of Balun Box???

Either way, can you provide a photo...preferably inside the Balun Box if you have one...

[Macro photo hint--lots of light and use normal to wide vice telephoto lens setting.]


9. Can you provide a photo or sketch of the short stubs???


----------



## haydeecm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16568957
> 
> 
> Did you try moving the antenna around to find a sweet spot, especially if you have obstructions warping the em radiation patterns? Over by the window. Stick it out the window and see if that helps.....never can tell what building materials you or your neighbor have that might be monkeying up the signals.



Wanted to thank you a bunch. I joined two coax cables and that way I was able to move the antenna around the room. I was so excited to finally find KUNS when placing the antenna at the very top of the window across the room from where the plasma is mounted. This window does face the direction of the signal. I can get the signal in the high sixties with my cheapie Artec antenna. However I dont see how I can perch my UFO on the tippy top of the window, too massive.


I guess now I need to find an antenna flexible enough to be able to mount next to my rear speaker. I was thinking of maybe the MANT940 cause I saw at target it looks like it could be mounted by the top of the window and small for indoors. Except i need VHF also. Getting closer now, though.


Again, many thanks.


----------



## Lord_Zath

is the attic out of the picture? if so, then try the roof


----------



## BrooklynGal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16568957
> 
> 
> Oh, I remember you. Sorry.
> 
> 
> Did you try moving the antenna around to find a sweet spot, especially if you have obstructions warping the em radiation patterns? Over by the window. Stick it out the window and see if that helps.....never can tell what building materials you or your neighbor have that might be monkeying up the signals.
> 
> 
> 
> And just to make sure, you did spin the UHF elements around in the disc right. position 1 is just to the left of 12 oclock and position 12 is at 12 oclock when facing the front of the unit looking down on it. So you can set it to 12 and then point the back of the unit towards the 140 degrees SouthEast.



How exactly does one "spin it"? Cause I'm making the assumption that the readout should face me as I view the thing so I can point the remote at it as needed. Even if #3 is at the back, as long as I keep it in the same position consistently, shouldn't it continue to receive consistently according to the way it's been set?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Short answer is yes.


I was just describing the orientation of the antenna within the disc as relates to the numbers on the LCD. 12 oclock is straight back, then 1 through 11 run counter clockwise, instead of like a regular clock. It doesnt matter how you have the antenna positined, you can spin it where you like it. I was just giving a way to know the orientation, so that he could move it around to find a sweet spot, in other words set it to 12 oclock and point the back of the antenna towards the compass heading of the transmission he is looking to bring in.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16582002
> 
> *IDRick re EZ-HD:* I'm very close to making some runs...but a few more questions:
> 
> 
> 1. Diameter of tubular elements--don't assume they're all the same.
> 
> Try to be as accurate as you can, preferably using calipers.
> 
> 
> 2. What are boom dimensions - 1.00"x1.00"???
> 
> 
> 3. How far are the elements offset vertically above or below the boom??
> 
> Measure from boom to centerline of the element.
> 
> 
> 4. What is vertical offset of the top, middle & bottom parts of the Folded Dipole???
> 
> 
> 5. On the third element from the front, are the two halves electrically interconnected
> 
> (it may be hidden)??? Are they electrically connected to boom, elements or stubs???
> 
> 
> 6. For each element insulated from the boom, what is the closest metal-to-metal
> 
> Gap between the two halves of the element???
> 
> 
> 7. What is boom overhang distance measured from the center of the longest element???
> 
> 
> 8. Did the EZ-HD come with a standard 300:75-ohm Balun or some sort of Balun Box???
> 
> Either way, can you provide a photo...preferably inside the Balun Box if you have one...
> 
> [Macro photo hint--lots of light and use normal to wide vice telephoto lens setting.]
> 
> 
> 9. Can you provide a photo or sketch of the short stubs???



1. Diameter of tubular elements: 3/8. The first and second tubular elements have a flared end (see image). Flare is 1/2" wide.


2. Boom dimensions: 1x1"


3. How far are the elements offset vertically above or below the boom??


First and second elements are 1/8 inch below top of boom

Third element is ¼ above boom

First and second tubular elements: 3/16 below boom

Third and fourth tubular elements: 3/16 above boom


4) Vertical offset of folded dipole:

top is 5/16 above boom

bottom is 5/16 below boom

middle is centered, ½ below top of boom


5) Third element, the two halves are electrically isolated from each other by the insulator. They are NOT connected to the boom, short stubs or any other elements.


6) The third and fourth tubular elements (from front) are insulated from the boom. The closest metal to metal gap between halves is 1-1/4 inches for both.


7) Not sure what you mean by boom overhang?? Is this the remaining portion of the boom (including mast mount)? The distance from center of last tubular element and the back of boom is 5 inches.


8) The balun is a standard 300:75 ohm matching transformer. Image attached.


9) Image attached


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im doing the antenna tests this weekend.


Currently I have the RCA ANT751 on the roof.....after just having the AntennaCraft G1483 4 bay Gray Hoverman for a couple of days, and the Channel Master 4220 before that. I will put the Antennas Direct ClearStream1 Convertible up there next.


I also have the Lava 643 (looks like an 1880 kindof), GE Quantum, GE Optima, Artec Meritline, and some others.


Lots of pictures, descriptions, comparisons, etc coming up soon.


----------



## holl_ands

*IDRick:* Thanks for the measurements.


I built the All-Tubular "bare bones" model and (using "Build" utility in 4nec2 for flat portions),

transferred in the flat UHF Folded Dipole, Floater and Director sections....Stubs are next.

Angles on Folded Dipole were a little messy...and I hope Stubs help what I'm seeing so far....


For ultimate NEC model fidelity, I'm pretty sure I'll have to physically model

the Boom, Stubs and perhaps even that crossover snaking around the back.

That's gonna take longer....then I can revisit "similar" YA-1713 that was also difficult to model.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think this has been posted in this thread before, but Im putting it down here for reference. Probably link it on the front page in the other info sources area.


Hat Tip holl_ands...



> Quote:
> holl_ands wrote:
> 
> And musn't overlook the coat hanger....it's a classic...
> 
> Kerry Cozad measured a "4-leaf-clover" antenna pattern:
> https://secure.connect.pbs.org/confe...ns/TC05_43.htm


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The AntennaCraft Gray Hoverman, Antennas Direct C1C and the RCA ANT751 are all performing admirably on the roof.


There are some distinctions to be made though. Im working on it.


----------



## IDRick

I look forward to reading your comparisons EV!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Well I dont have use of the Zenith DTT901 at this moment, unfortunately.


----------



## mrgoodkat

For what it is worth, I own the Philips MANT510, and it performs much better than it should, given that I'm around 50 miles (60020 IL) from the antennas, in Chicago. I believe they are on top of the Sears Tower though, so that helps. People in different states, upwards of 100 or so miles away, with roof top antennas, are able to get Chicago TV.


The signal has never been very strong, not surprisingly, but the picture was always clean. Until recently...


Pixelization appears to be getting worse, the closer the actual conversion date is. I live in a condo, that does allow for the small satellite dishes, but not for attic or rooftop solutions. Can anyone recommend anything? I would like to stay indoor if possible.


Do I need an amplifier? Or anything else? I'm pretty far away...


----------



## bigcam406

i myself have a MANT510,and i have been nothing but impressed with it since i have taken out of the box a year ago.i live in southern ontario,and receive stations from western New York (Buffalo mostly).the Mant510 already has an amp built in (50db advertised).i have heard rumblings that the amp deteriorates over time,so maybe that could be the cause of your weak signal.mine is still working very well (knock on wood).


----------



## wreck58

So how did everyone fare with the DTV switch today?? My 2 problem channels (21 & 27) in D/FW came in much stronger!!


----------



## Lord_Zath

So far pretty happy but I won't really know until tomorrow, since a bunch of stations won't change until tonight 11:59pm.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16598450
> 
> *IDRick:* Thanks for the measurements.
> 
> 
> I built the All-Tubular "bare bones" model and (using "Build" utility in 4nec2 for flat portions),
> 
> transferred in the flat UHF Folded Dipole, Floater and Director sections....Stubs are next.
> 
> Angles on Folded Dipole were a little messy...and I hope Stubs help what I'm seeing so far....
> 
> 
> For ultimate NEC model fidelity, I'm pretty sure I'll have to physically model
> 
> the Boom, Stubs and perhaps even that crossover snaking around the back.
> 
> That's gonna take longer....then I can revisit "similar" YA-1713 that was also difficult to model.



Were you able to complete your modeling efforts Holl_ands? I'd like to see your data. Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands

Nearly there...gotta cross connect the square boom to antenna elements....

Then we can see where we are wrt to this NEC SIM stuff.....

Based on YA-1713, I still think I'm gonna have to model everything in

that snaky crossover transmission line....which will take another week....


I also got distracted with Brian Beasley's (K6STI) Hi-VHF 5-Element Yagi,

which miraculously covers the entire band with excellent F/B Ratio....

I'll post more on this after I bounce some questions off him....


PS: Wednesday we were preoccupied watching my daughter delivering our grand-daughter....

also helping were her two young sons, my son+wife, my wife, a student nurse...a few others...


----------



## IDRick

Congrats Grandpa holl_ands!


----------



## mrgoodkat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigcam406* /forum/post/16632406
> 
> 
> i have heard rumblings that the amp deteriorates over time,so maybe that could be the cause of your weak signal



I will look into that, thanks.


----------



## Doc Sief




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigcam406* /forum/post/16632406
> 
> 
> i myself have a MANT510,and i have been nothing but impressed with it since i have taken out of the box a year ago.i live in southern ontario,and receive stations from western New York (Buffalo mostly).the Mant510 already has an amp built in (50db advertised).i have heard rumblings that the amp deteriorates over time,so maybe that could be the cause of your weak signal.mine is still working very well (knock on wood).



I tried the MANT510 and found it very unstable in stability and the VERY small UHF flat panel was tiny. The Radio Shack UFO is great and just needs to be aimed in the correct direction. I am still amazed at how the old timey outdoor antennae still work great, even hooking one up to a Home Depot low noise 15dB amplifier worked wonders for my father-in-law!


----------



## XavierL13

Regarding Official Digital Changeover, West LA, 1 day after....


Crap ! Lost Channels 7.1, 9.1, 11.1, and 13.1 with my Winegard SS3000. 1 week before the Digital changeover, and these channels came in fine, quite fine. 1st day after the changeover, did a rescan, and they were lost. (though I finally got 2.1 !) Have spent hours rescanning, moving antenna, everything I could think of. Gone ! Damn...


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *XavierL13* /forum/post/16646689
> 
> 
> Regarding Official Digital Changeover, West LA, 1 day after....
> 
> 
> Crap ! Lost Channels 7.1, 9.1, 11.1, and 13.1 with my Winegard SS3000. 1 week before the Digital changeover, and these channels came in fine, quite fine. 1st day after the changeover, did a rescan, and they were lost. (though I finally got 2.1 !) Have spent hours rescanning, moving antenna, everything I could think of. Gone ! Damn...



Same problem for me but with both rabbit ears and a DB2 bowtie antenna (indoor). I am under 20 miles from Mt. Wilson (can see the mountains).


Does anyone know what's a good indoor antenna (UHF+VHF) to get from local retail stores (e.g., Best Buy, Costco, Radio Shack, Walmart, Sears)? And no I can't put it on the roof (e.g., am disabled, not allowed). Are these still good/valid/available?


Philips PHDTV3 Indoor Amplified UHF/VHF/FM/HDTV Antenna:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV3.../dp/B000B58VNM 


Terk Technology HDTVi VHF/UHF HDTV Indoor Antenna:
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technolog.../dp/B0001FV36E 


Terk HDTVa Indoor Amplified High-Definition Antenna for Off-Air HDTV

Reception
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified.../dp/B0007MXZB2 

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2131034 



Thanks in advance.


----------



## caledonia1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/16647222
> 
> 
> Same problem for me but with both rabbit ears and a DB2 bowtie antenna (indoor). I am under 20 miles from Mt. Wilson (can see the mountains).
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what's a good indoor antenna (UHF+VHF) to get from local retail stores (e.g., Best Buy, Costco, Radio Shack, Walmart, Sears)? And no I can't put it on the roof (e.g., am disabled, not allowed). Are these still good/valid/available?
> 
> 
> Philips PHDTV3 Indoor Amplified UHF/VHF/FM/HDTV Antenna:
> http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV3.../dp/B000B58VNM
> 
> 
> Terk Technology HDTVi VHF/UHF HDTV Indoor Antenna:
> http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technolog.../dp/B0001FV36E
> 
> 
> Terk HDTVa Indoor Amplified High-Definition Antenna for Off-Air HDTV
> 
> Reception
> http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified.../dp/B0007MXZB2
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2131034
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance. [URL='http:/trafficreport/img/3721/k08t1221bbuq/gdsmile.gif%5B/IMG']http://www.*****************/trafficreport/img/3721/k08t1221bbuq/gdsmile.gif[/IMG[/URL] ]
> [/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the link, philips antenna are really good.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *caledonia1* /forum/post/16647452
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the link, philips antenna are really good.



Yeah, but will it work well in my situation. That's the problem.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15809681
> 
> 
> ...you might as well get a UVSJ(its cheap) since you already have the Terk TV-1 Rabbit Ears for improved VHF reception.



Is it still a good idea to get this combiner for my current bowtie antenna and rabbit ears even though both can't get all stations on their UHF and VHF? For example, rabbit ears can't get KTTV 11 easily after the digital changes.


----------



## juda




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/16647466
> 
> 
> Yeah, but will it work well in my situation. That's the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://***************/9/R/i.jpg[/IMG[/URL] ]
> [/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Hmm lets hope so lol.. I don't know too much about antennas [IMG]http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/frown.gif


----------



## mrgoodkat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Doc Sief* /forum/post/16646078
> 
> 
> I tried the MANT510 and found it very unstable in stability and the VERY small UHF flat panel was tiny.



Looking at the base, I find it hard to believe anyone would find it unstable. Like I said, given the size of the antenna panel, I was amazed that at 50 miles from the towers, I was getting anything. Although it was always a weak signal, and I only got upwards of 6 channels.


It sounds crazy, but when I first bought the MANT510, last summer, I got around 12 channels, with a strong signal. It only got worse from there, the closer the transition date. So it might give some credence to the amp degradation rumors.


Given that it is a rumor at best, I can still recommend it for anyone looking for an easily adjustable antenna, due to the swivel. Upwards of maybe, 20-25 miles from the towers.


However, for not much more, you can get the Terk HDTVa, which I just bought yesterday, and it now gets me 35 channels. All very strong, and utterly pixelization free. This is a fantastic antenna at around $35.


It states that it is designed for upwards of 45 miles from the towers. And is designed to help eliminate multipath interference. Which is a major issue for people farther away from the towers.


It has very solid build quality all around. It has some heft. The dipoles are thick and sturdy. The power cord is thick and is hardwired into the base. However, this is a antenna that is highly unstable. The base is small, and the power cord being hardwired, is difficult to mange given its design. Its a small issue though.


----------



## bluescreenoftom

Anyone got any experience with these no-name antennas from people on eBay? (Sorry, I can't post the direct URL link because I'm not up to 3 posts yet. Search for item number 140325253866). They look like the legendary Radioshack "Holy Grail" antennas, and have similar amplification, but I'm leery about spending $35 on an antenna that I can't return if it doesn't do what I want.


I'm trying to pick up several channels 30-35 miles to the northeast of me. All channels are to the northeast, so a directional antenna would do me good. I live in an apartment so outdoor isn't an option. With Should I try these eBay ones? Any other suggestions? I'm using a standard unpowered radioshack "budget" antenna now and my DTV box is showing a slight signal, but not strong enough...


----------



## JPowers

EscapeVelocity, thank you for doing all this testing! Unfortunately, 1880s are selling at a premium on Ebay. I thought for sure I'd be able to score one tonight, because the seller didn't list the model number in the title. It just sold for $80.50 shipped!










I don't know what to do now. My Terk TV-5 worked well at my previous address, but the townhouse I live in now is situated in a way that 95% of the stations are located in the direction blocked by 3 other townhouses connected to mine. Downstairs is even more hopeless, so I was forced to at least temporarily pay Scamcast.


You list the UFO as the #2 model, but it doesn't rotate a full 360 degrees. The wall behind my tv is the direction the signal is coming from, so I'd have to turn the unit around, which means I couldn't use the remote. I'll do some more digging through this thread tonight, but in the mean time, do you have any recommendations for my particular situation?


By the way, there are 1880 look-alikes on Ebay. Have you thought about taking one of these for a spin?


edit...I just saw someone above me asking the same question, lol!


----------



## bluescreenoftom




> Quote:
> By the way, there are 1880 look-alikes on Ebay. Have you thought about taking one of these for a spin?
> 
> 
> edit...I just saw someone above me asking the same question, lol!



Haha, yeah... I was watching that auction for the 1880 too... I put in a bid for $28.00 earlier today and got blown out of the water.


I hope someone can provide some insight on those knock-offs. Hopefully they're just asian knock-off copies of the 1880.


----------



## JPowers




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bluescreenoftom* /forum/post/16651173
> 
> 
> Haha, yeah... I was watching that auction for the 1880 too... I put in a bid for $28.00 earlier today and got blown out of the water.
> 
> 
> I hope someone can provide some insight on those knock-offs. Hopefully they're just asian knock-off copies of the 1880.



Yes, I remember your bid fondly, lol! I had planned to put in a bid for $45.01 at the end, but things got out of control in the remaining seconds, so I didn't bother.


There's another auction, and in the description, the seller mentions that these are still made by a French company, and even gives the name and model number. I searched for the name, misspellings of the name, and the model numbers, and came up with nothing. I think he made it up.


edit part 2...Take a look at page 54 (it might be a different page on your pc), but EscapeVelocity bought one of those 1880 clones. Hopefully we'll hear something soon.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Unfortunately, I have 2 problems right now, several channels are acting differently post June 12, and my friend that I loaned the Zenith DTT901 to, has loaned it to someone else....no telling when Ill be getting it back.


However I can tell you this. The LAVA 643 (looks similar to the RS 1880) is a bit smaller and more cheaply made than the 1880. Its 3 ft permanently attached coax is a pain in the ass.


Performance doesnt look up to par with the 1880, but not terrible. However, I havent given it enough time and concentration to assess it well, and I dont have the meter on the Zenith DTT901 to get solid data and compare it to other antennas I have here.


----------



## bluescreenoftom

Thanks, any info is better than none. I'm using a DTT901 as well :-D.


So in your expert opinion, EscapeVelocity, what would you recommend for me (Stations 30-35 miles in one direction, must use indoor antenna)? Should I go with the LAVA 643? Or is there something else around the same cost that you think has the potential to perform better?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Post your TVfool.com data link.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

phil, I thought you had figured out a good solution already.


If you need more gain on VHF then I suggest an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 .











Its not huge though it is big (60 inch length) and can be mounted on a ceiling. Join to the DB2 via the UVSJ combiner.



Other than that, youve clued in on some of the better options for you, the RS UFO would be my favorite, but maybe you will benefit from the tighter beamwidth of the Philips Amplified Silver Sensor PHDTV3, or the Terk HDTVa.


Definitely go amplification, as that may help the Rabbit Ear VHF section enough to give you satisfactory receptionon VHF. Unless of course you go giant VHF Hi Yagi.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16659509
> 
> 
> phil, I thought you had figured out a good solution already.
> 
> 
> If you need more gain on VHF then I suggest an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its not huge though it is big (60 inch length) and can be mounted on a ceiling. Join to the DB2 via the UVSJ combiner.



Mounted on a ceiling? How? Doesn't it need to stand up?


Speaking of VHF+UHF combiner, will Terk rabbit ears work even though I still can't get all the VHF channels (e.g., 11) by itself? Or do I still have to get a better antenna like Yagi's?


Is there a small one that does both UHF and VHF? Forget the splitter. Let's keep it simple and small.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I edited my post.


I forgot what you were using. DB2, Rabbit Ears, 3 splitters and what kind of combiner or amplifier do you have? You could get a distribution amplifier and maybe solve all your problems.


I remember you had poor ASTC tuner cards for your computer, too.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16659519
> 
> 
> I edited my post.
> 
> 
> I forgot what you were using. DB2, Rabbit Ears, 3 splitters and what kind of combiner or amplifier do you have? You could get a distribution amplifier and maybe solve all your problems.
> 
> 
> I remember you had poor ASTC tuner cards for your computer, too.



Yeah, I don't know if stronger antennae are going to help those old ASTC cards since my DTV Pal (2008) seems to work. I got them in late 2005. So far converter boxes seem to work.


I did some comparisons tonight with PC's HDTV tuners vs. [DTV Pal Converter Box]:


DB2 BOWTIE up in closet:

KCBS2 = 61-69% [91-93%]

KNBC4 = 96-100% [91-93%]

KTLA5 = 80-85% [88-90%]

KABC7 = 90-100% (sometimes not lockable at first) [low 90%!]

KCAL9 = 100% [91-96%]

KTTV11 = undetected from scan and can't lock [73-74%]

KCOP/UPN13 = 60-67% [73%-76%]

LA18 = undetected from scan and can't lock [73-74%]

KCET28 = 77-84% [85-93%]

ION30 = 100% [93%]

KOCE50 = 61-75% [90%]

KLCS = undetected from scan and can't lock [64-66%]



Same antenna at the same location, five splitters (even tried two splitters), and doesn't matter if coax cables are short or long. No amplifier and combiners yet.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16659509
> 
> 
> phil, I thought you had figured out a good solution already.
> 
> 
> If you need more gain on VHF then I suggest an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its not huge though it is big (60 inch length) and can be mounted on a ceiling. Join to the DB2 via the UVSJ combiner.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than that, youve clued in on some of the better options for you, the RS UFO would be my favorite, but maybe you will benefit from the tighter beamwidth of the Philips Amplified Silver Sensor PHDTV3, or the Terk HDTVa.
> 
> 
> Definitely go amplification, as that may help the Rabbit Ear VHF section enough to give you satisfactory receptionon VHF. Unless of course you go giant VHF Hi Yagi.



So if I get a RS UFO, Philips Amplified Silver Sensor PHDTV3, or Terk HDTVa... I don't use my DB2 bowtie. Am I correct? I recall that all of these have powered amplifiers unlike my rabbit ears and DB2 bowtie? I was hoping to avoid more power plugs since I am running out of power sockets. Even turning on my old 20" CRT TV makes my UPS beep at me. LOL!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

A little amplifier boost may help you. None of the UFO, HDTVa, Amplified Silver Sensor are going to be any better than your Rabbit Ears with an added Amplifier on VHF Hi.


You can also tune your Rabbit Ears to length.

How to Get More Out of Rabbit Ears. 


Wave Length Table


Rabbit Ears come with new TV sets, are inexpensive, and easy to set up. On VHF they should be horizontal at 1/2 wavelength tip to tip The best length tip to tip depends on the channel. PLEASE NOTE: Actual best length of a dipole antenna is about 91% of that of 1/2 wave in free space, so to be precise about this, the lengths below are already reduced by approx. 9%. See this if you don't understand wavelength.


Channel # Frequency Ant Length Inch

Channel 2 (54-60 MHz) 102'

Channel 3 (60-66) 92'

Channel 4 (66-72) 83'

Channel 6 (82-88) 72'

FM (88-108) 57'

Channel 7 (174-180) 32'

Channel 8 (180-186) 31'

Channel 9 (186-192) 30'

Channel 10 (192-198) 29'

Channel 11 (198-204) 28'

Channel 12 (204-210) 27'

Channel 13 (210-216) 26'


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Often VHF dipoles "Rabbit Ears" are 40 inches in length which makes for 80" total frome end to end stretched out horizontally, you can shorten these down to about 30" total and cover the VHF Hi spectrum more effeciently with better gain.


Hope that is clear and helps.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16659550
> 
> 
> A little amplifier boost may help you. None of the UFO, HDTVa, Amplified Silver Sensor are going to be any better than your Rabbit Ears with an added Amplifier on VHF Hi.
> 
> 
> You can also tune your Rabbit Ears to length.
> 
> How to Get More Out of Rabbit Ears.
> 
> 
> Wave Length Table
> 
> 
> Rabbit Ears come with new TV sets, are inexpensive, and easy to set up. On VHF they should be horizontal at 1/2 wavelength tip to tip The best length tip to tip depends on the channel. PLEASE NOTE: Actual best length of a dipole antenna is about 91% of that of 1/2 wave in free space, so to be precise about this, the lengths below are already reduced by approx. 9%. See this if you don't understand wavelength.
> 
> 
> Channel # Frequency Ant Length Inch
> 
> Channel 2 (54-60 MHz) 102'
> 
> Channel 3 (60-66) 92'
> 
> Channel 4 (66-72) 83'
> 
> Channel 6 (82-88) 72'
> 
> FM (88-108) 57'
> 
> Channel 7 (174-180) 32'
> 
> Channel 8 (180-186) 31'
> 
> Channel 9 (186-192) 30'
> 
> Channel 10 (192-198) 29'
> 
> Channel 11 (198-204) 28'
> 
> Channel 12 (204-210) 27'
> 
> Channel 13 (210-216) 26'



Interesting link. I measured my antenna. It is 39" max for its metal(?) antenna ears so only down to channel 7, but then that's the lowest for the current VHF unlike previous analog channels. I am confused on how you control the lengths, which parts of the antennae do I change? The end, the beginning, or middle parts? The article got technical and didn't have pictures.










When I was testing my rabbit ears antenna, I found the best place was on my wooden room floor like http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitearinhand.gif with Terk's rabbit ears: http://wbaldt.files.wordpress.com/20...t_ear_an_4.jpg ... However, its signals jump around too much. Also, I have to rotate for some channels. Here is what I found on Saturday night (not a full list):


KNBC4 = 100% _._ parallel with the desks.

= 80-85% \\/ on floor between desks (antennae face north and south) or _| among the front of the left desk on floor

KTLA5 = not detected from scan

KABC7 = 80%-100% _._ on floor

KCAL9 = 90%

KTTV11 = very weak _._ on floor

KCOP/UPN 13 = 80%-94% \\| right side of window frames


Even converter box had problems with rabbit ears. However, I never tried shrinking the lengths. They were maxxed out (39"). Much better with a DB2 bowtie.


Interferences from VCR, TV, computers were interesting. That's probably why DB2 did better in the closet and not on my desk and bookshelf. Same for rabbit ears being on my floor.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16659561
> 
> 
> Often VHF dipoles "Rabbit Ears" are 40 inches in length which makes for 80" total frome end to end stretched out horizontally, you can shorten these down to about 30" total and cover the VHF Hi spectrum more effeciently with better gain.
> 
> 
> Hope that is clear and helps.



I will have to try that since I never tried that (always use the full lengths). But which parts do I shrink from 40" from each side? The top part? Middle? Bottom? Or it doesn't matter?


----------



## JPowers




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16658705
> 
> 
> Post your TVfool.com data link.



I don't know if that was directed at me, but I'd appreciate your advice. As you can see, most of the channels are to the North, but there are several connecting townhouses that direction. External antennas aren't allowed, either.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16547500
> 
> 
> Dan,
> 
> 
> The C5 is the same outside dimension as the C4 with about 3 times the depth between the reflector and the active element.
> 
> 
> It should be available in about 4 weeks (give or take).




So where is this antenna? I really need to try this with my C4.


----------



## PHOnos




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *XavierL13* /forum/post/16646689
> 
> 
> Regarding Official Digital Changeover, West LA, 1 day after....
> 
> 
> Crap ! Lost Channels 7.1, 9.1, 11.1, and 13.1 with my Winegard SS3000. 1 week before the Digital changeover, and these channels came in fine, quite fine. 1st day after the changeover, did a rescan, and they were lost. (though I finally got 2.1 !) Have spent hours rescanning, moving antenna, everything I could think of. Gone ! Damn...



Newbie here, wth same problem here in Orange (at the Crush) on the kitchen Toshiba.


No way to connect to the outdoor antenna or ATT. Everything was great until June 13 using an old RS two bow tie indoor UHF (with slight directional adjustments for stations). Now 7.x, 9.1, 11.1, and 13.1 are gone with the return of these stations to VHF band.


Ran out a bought an RCA flat panel with amp at Wally-world which is supposed to be VHF-UHF and omni-directional and "smart" but only marginally works (lots of break-up) for some of the VHF and still have to move it around. 11.1 is still no-joy in any position. Going to return it today.


Suggestions welcome including links to other posts, threads, etc.


----------



## mrgoodkat

Not to sound like a meathead, but I would stay away from RCA. Over the many, many months of trying to find the perfect indoor antenna, RCA's were the worst for me. Taking into account that everyone's situation is different...


Ive tried most of the 'set-top', amplified antennas. And when I say most, I mean it. Including the much sought after radioshack 1880, too.


I'm worst case scenario at around 50 miles from the towers in downtown Chicago. And all I kept getting was advice from professionals, that my only viable option was the attic, or rooftop. Which isnt an option for me either (condo).


For me, salvation came in the form of the Terk HDTVa. This Terk antenna is simply perfect for me. I was getting a ton of multipath distortion, which this solved, and I get very solid signal strength. Better than anything else I tried. It is also better overall build quality than ninety-some-odd percent of what I tried, as well.


Keep in mind though, it is highly directional, so if you have multiple towers, spread out from on another, it is not the best option unless you want to move it, which isnt a big deal I guess. Luckily for me, most of the antennas are on top of the Sears tower.


So I can recommend that, at around $35. There is also a un-amplified, HDTVi, for about $6 less. But the Dual-Drive Amplifier in the HDTVa, should eliminate any reception issues with using an amplified antenna, when close to the towers. But you always have the option of the amp, if you move, etc.

http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified.../dp/B0007MXZB2


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JPowers* /forum/post/16659624
> 
> 
> External antennas aren't allowed, either.



If you have a private balcony and the antenna doesn't protrude over the balcony out into the open air, according to OTARD they can't stop you. A yagi might be problematic there, but a 4-bay external would rise up, not out, and would probably fit completely within your balcony. And they couldn't legally stop it.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16661684
> 
> 
> So where is this antenna? I really need to try this with my C4.



Contact AD and see what they say.


Last I heard was that a small shipment was being sent in air freight sometime this week while the balance of the initial production run was being sent by ocean container and was due in around the end of this month.


----------



## magna2

Although I am in the Boston market, I had been able to receive the New Hampshire stations. Now that post transition changes to frequencies, two of the NH stations have changed to broadcasting over their analog VHF-Hi frequencies (9 & 11) from the temporary UHF frequencies. To compound the change, they are now boradcasting at a much reduced power than before. I am supposed to be within their broadcasting range (30 to 45 miles away from their transmission towers) but now my Terk HTVa can't pull in the signal strongly. Also, the Terk HTVa rabbit ears aren't much good in terms of filtering out multi-paths so it is another factor in me not being able to receive the stations.


----------



## nicoge21

In analog I used to get WMUR, WENH, and even the ION affiliate channel 21 in concord all very very watchabe. Also got the ION out of boston on channel 68, After 21 went all digital, haven't seen a blip on my reciever yet. Same for WMUR, and WENH.


I hear WENH has 4 channels all together, would be nice to pick those up, but obviously they don't care if people in Mass get them or not because they are New hampshire stations. We have WGBH and WGBX down here.


Don't go by the FCC coverage maps with the colored dots either, they're inaccurate.


----------



## JPowers




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ziggy29* /forum/post/16662406
> 
> 
> If you have a private balcony and the antenna doesn't protrude over the balcony out into the open air, according to OTARD they can't stop you. A yagi might be problematic there, but a 4-bay external would rise up, not out, and would probably fit completely within your balcony. And they couldn't legally stop it.



Directly behind the house is a porch that's on ground level. There's also a hill, so it's not a good place for an antenna.


----------



## Cbl12886

I was hoping someone could recommend me an antenna. My wife and I just bought a house that is 100% concrete (Inside and Outside walls). We have not moved in yet (renovations will continue for a few more weeks) so I have not been able to try the reception. We life right outside Orlando, FL but do not want to spend the $50 a month for Cable TV, just internet for now. In the back of the house, there is a 10-12' pole with a outdoor light on it. I was thinking about putting a small antenna on it towards the top and running the cable along the outside of the house. It would have to be pretty minimal looking or my wife would not be too pleased. Any suggestions?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...663d6fcf3117b6


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/16659597
> 
> 
> I will have to try that since I never tried that (always use the full lengths). But which parts do I shrink from 40" from each side? The top part? Middle? Bottom? Or it doesn't matter?



Each side, the top, thinnest telescoping lengths slide in.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16666570
> 
> 
> Each side, the top, thinnest telescoping lengths slide in.



Interesting for the channel 11 (KTTV) I can't get. I can tell if the lengths are too short that receipts are bad. I can tell little differences if the longest to one or two parts/pieces shorters in terms of signal strengths.


At _._ (180 degrees)


Parallel to the Mountains:

24-44% = 29'

33-44% = remove end/thinnest part.

39-51% (shutters closed)/49-65% = remove two end/thinnest part.


Antennae Pointing North and South (window's shutters closed):

44-67% = remove two ends/thinnest parts outside the closet.

43-49% = remove three ends/thinnest parts outside the closet.

48-61% = remove two end/thinnest parts in closet.


So would a combiner still help in this situation?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Phil, Im unclear if it has helped you, has it increased signal?


The antenna should be perpendicular to the transmission.....also you dont have to slide entire sections at a time, you can measure the distance from tip to tip for exact tuning to a particular channel.



From what I understand Phil of your complicated situation, is that you need to combine your DB2 with a VHF solution (as yet to be determined). If you are getting 50 to 70 percent on channel 11 with rabbit ears then a distribution amplifier plus a UVSJ will probably be a good solution for you. The key is to get enough of a signal that it can be amplified and stabilized in the signal window of the tuner.


An RS UFO or a Philips PHDTV3 Amplified Silver Sensor, or a Terk HDTA may offer success for you (may have good enough VHF dipoles and enough amplification to drive the system....but you will have to try that out. The RS UFO is available at Radio Shack and they have a very good return policy.


You sound like you may be getting multipath on VHF with the limited directionality of the Rabbit Ears. Amplification may help stabilize this.


So you basically have 3 choices.


1. Try the RS UFO integrated solution with your 5 splitters.


2. Try UVSJ and a Distribution Amplifier.


3. Upgrade your VHF antenna solution.


BTW a UVSJ will almost certainly help with the integration of your Terk TV1 rabbit ears and the DB2, much better than a regular splitter in reverse. The DB2 and Rabbit Ears are cross talking (including something similar to multipath) without filters to remove the designed off peak band signals. This could help improve your signals.


1. is easiest to try, minimum of cable rewiring etc.


2. is probably the best solution for you.


3. is probably the most pure solution for improving VHF performance, but that requires a much bigger antenna.



Im not sure how much multipath is a problem in the LA regional market. But the AntennaCraft G1483 Gray Hoverman is a fantastic antenna, and it along with an Amplifier could probably drive your 5 or 6 tuners and give you UHF and VHF performance.


At the end of the day, some experimentation and trial and error at the location is invaluable to finding the right solution. I can only offer suggestions for that experimentation and trial and error.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Jpowers those VHF are going to be difficult with only amplification and vhf dipoles to work with.


You need to get a length of coax and find sweet spots. A G1483 AntennaCraft Gray Hoverman with an amplifier may work well for you....it has wide beamwidth and bandwidth and decent performance on VHF Hi....but I think an amplifier will help you as well. Perhaps mount this in a North East facing window or attic. Another alternative is the EZ HD, its both UHF and VHF with about 5db gain across the spectrum but with tighter beamwidth.


Do you have any windows or balconies that face North or North East? Rooms on that side may be better as well for indoor placement, finding sweet spots etc.


Getting about 25 to 50 ft of coax to use to locate sweet spots seems like a good investment for you.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16666874
> 
> 
> Phil, Im unclear if it has helped you, has it increased signal?
> 
> 
> The antenna should be perpendicular to the transmission.....also you dont have to slide entire sections at a time, you can measure the distance from tip to tip for exact tuning to a particular channel.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I understand Phil of your complicated situation, is that you need to combine your DB2 with a VHF solution (as yet to be determined). If you are getting 50 to 70 percent on channel 11 with rabbit ears then a distribution amplifier plus a UVSJ will probably be a good solution for you. The key is to get enough of a signal that it can be amplified and stabilized in the signal window of the tuner.
> 
> 
> An RS UFO or a Philips PHDTV3 Amplified Silver Sensor, or a Terk HDTA may offer success for you (may have good enough VHF dipoles and enough amplification to drive the system....but you will have to try that out. The RS UFO is available at Radio Shack and they have a very good return policy.
> 
> 
> You sound like you may be getting multipath on VHF with the limited directionality of the Rabbit Ears. Amplification may help stabilize this.
> 
> 
> So you basically have 3 choices.
> 
> 
> 1. Try the RS UFO integrated solution with your 5 splitters.
> 
> 
> 2. Try UVSJ and a Distribution Amplifier.
> 
> 
> 3. Upgrade your VHF antenna solution.
> 
> 
> BTW a UVSJ will almost certainly help with the integration of your Terk TV1 rabbit ears and the DB2, much better than a regular splitter in reverse. The DB2 and Rabbit Ears are cross talking (including something similar to multipath) without filters to remove the designed off peak band signals. This could help improve your signals.
> 
> 
> 1. is easiest to try, minimum of cable rewiring etc.
> 
> 
> 2. is probably the best solution for you.
> 
> 
> 3. is probably the most pure solution for improving VHF performance, but that requires a much bigger antenna.
> 
> 
> 
> Im not sure how much multipath is a problem in the LA regional market. But the AntennaCraft G1483 Gray Hoverman is a fantastic antenna, and it along with an Amplifier could probably drive your 5 or 6 tuners and give you UHF and VHF performance.
> 
> 
> At the end of the day, some experimentation and trial and error at the location is invaluable to finding the right solution. I can only offer suggestions for that experimentation and trial and error.



EV: It has gained KTTV 11, but also lost a channel (KTLA 5). However, I did NOT check every channels, only the ones I care for due to free time (was doing this after 11 PM!).


KTTV with Terk antenna ranged from 43% to 67% (72% was the highest converter box' value, not my PC's tuners]. At least it was locked on unlike my bowtie antenna which surprised me. Since you said "the antenna should be perpendicular to the transmission.", does bowtie have to be like that too. Right now I have it facing the mountains (reflector grid is behind the two > As for the lengths of antenna ears, it seems to do better with max lengths, even more 29" but closet can't go to 40".










I guess I could buy both combiner (didn't see an UVSJ there) and RS UFO antenna from there RS. Darn, amplified antennae require AC power too (have to find more power plugs (out of sockets even with all these strips and yay more heat too in my hot room [sometimes 85F!]) and I have to find a place. Where would amplified antenna be placed? In my closet near my DB2 bowtie? Same rules apply for rabbit ears (away from TV, VCR, computers, etc.)?


How does "much better than a regular splitter in reverse" work? Both antennae goes to output connectors and what does one input for the tuner? I did try plugging the other antenna to an unused output with the input, but that made no changes.


When speaking of amplification, how much amplified? Just curious? Is there concerns of overloading like on the good ones that have 90%+?


Others have told me that I am experiencing multipath because I live on a hill and had issues with analog feeds (fussy feeds on VHF channels and even some low UHF ones).


----------



## ranoobu

I Currently have the Phillips UHF only Silver Sensor.. can't seem to find anything on what I'm looking for...


Is there anything I can add or do that will allow me to Keep using this Silver Sensor and recieve my missing VHF channels?


Can't get KTTV.. assuming because it's VHF now as everyone has been pointing out.


----------



## PHOnos

For those of us having a problem receiving KTTV, 11.1, in LA, I found the following on Yahoo Answers from someone who contacted the station, FWIW --


"I'm in the same boat. I live in central Orange County and can't get it. I spent more than a half hour on hold with KTTV's help line and was told that they are working on the tower."


Apparently the station is aware of problems.


By the way, the RCA flat panel indoor antenna that I am returning to Wal-Mart is a model 1450B.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PHOnos* /forum/post/16668421
> 
> 
> For those having a problem receiving KTTV, 11.1, in LA, I found the following on Yahoo Answers from someone who contacted the station --
> 
> 
> "I'm in the same boat. I live in central Orange County and can't get it. I spent more than a half hour on hold with KTTV's help line and was told that they are working on the tower."
> 
> 
> Apparently the station is aware of problems.



Awesome news! Got the URL/link?







Did they give an ETA to be fixed?


I will hold off buying a combiner, new antenna, etc. until then! Beside nothing on TV for the summer.


----------



## nicoge21




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JPowers* /forum/post/16665367
> 
> 
> Directly behind the house is a porch that's on ground level. There's also a hill, so it's not a good place for an antenna.



If you have line of sight problems you have to keep the antenna tilted so it's aimed over the object that's in the way.


----------



## PHOnos




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/16668472
> 
> 
> Awesome news! Got the URL/link?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did they give an ETA to be fixed?
> 
> 
> I will hold off buying a combiner, new antenna, etc. until then! Beside nothing on TV for the summer.



The link to the blurb on Yahoo Answers is --




Sorry you'll have to cut and paste, EV won't let me post a direct link.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PHOnos* /forum/post/16669162
> 
> 
> The link to the blurb on Yahoo Answers is --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry you'll have to cut and paste, EV won't let me post a direct link.



Thank you.


----------



## quango




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ranoobu* /forum/post/16668284
> 
> 
> I Currently have the Phillips UHF only Silver Sensor.. can't seem to find anything on what I'm looking for...
> 
> 
> Is there anything I can add or do that will allow me to Keep using this Silver Sensor and recieve my missing VHF channels?
> 
> 
> Can't get KTTV.. assuming because it's VHF now as everyone has been pointing out.



You can try adding a VHF dipole (just plain "rabbit ears") and using a UHF/VHF combiner to merge the two signals - see here for combiner advice.


----------



## JPowers




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16666878
> 
> 
> Jpowers those VHF are going to be difficult with only amplification and vhf dipoles to work with.
> 
> 
> You need to get a length of coax and find sweet spots. A G1483 AntennaCraft Gray Hoverman with an amplifier may work well for you....it has wide beamwidth and bandwidth and decent performance on VHF Hi....but I think an amplifier will help you as well. Perhaps mount this in a North East facing window or attic. Another alternative is the EZ HD, its both UHF and VHF with about 5db gain across the spectrum but with tighter beamwidth.
> 
> 
> Do you have any windows or balconies that face North or North East? Rooms on that side may be better as well for indoor placement, finding sweet spots etc.
> 
> 
> Getting about 25 to 50 ft of coax to use to locate sweet spots seems like a good investment for you.



I apologize for not seeing your post. I didn't even know you had responded to me. There is only 1 VHF channel that I care about (PBS), and even that isn't so important. I'd just like to pull in most of the stations in yellow. Do you think a Terk HDTVa, aimed North would do the trick? Thanks for your help!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey I dont make the rules. I think it is 5 posts needed in order to post a link.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PHOnos* /forum/post/16661772
> 
> 
> Suggestions welcome including links to other posts, threads, etc.



AntennaCraft Gray Hoverman 4 bay G 1483

Philips MANT950


RS UFO

Terk HDTVa


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JPowers* /forum/post/16669780
> 
> 
> I'd just like to pull in most of the stations in yellow. Do you think a Terk HDTVa, aimed North would do the trick? Thanks for your help!



What is your building made of? Brick, metal roofs or siding (including hidden alumna-tape underneath the vinyl or other siding), stucco?


The answer is maybe, cant hurt to try. That certainly is one of the better antennas. The UFO would work for you, its UHF elements rotate 360ish degrees, they just dont keep spinning in one direction forever.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

AVSforum poster arbie has an upgrade for VHF Hi antenna performance on 4 bay bowties....



> Quote:
> Try replacing the 20" wide reflector on your 4221 with a 36" wide reflector. I purchased a 25' roll of the 1x2 screen, and I've swapped out reflectors on half-a-dozen 4221's here in El Lay. The wider reflector was all that was needed to receive vhf-hi channels with a 4221, and, this afternoon, all the modified 4221 are receiving KABC-DT.
> 
> 
> For non-4221 4-bays, where replacing the existing reflector is more than a 5 minute job, I attached horizontal 36" rods to the existing reflector using small U-bolts. It's not as elegant as replacing the reflector, but it also works.
> 
> 
> pics on the link...
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=4934


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16670320
> 
> 
> AVSforum poster arbie has an upgrade for VHF Hi antenna performance on 4 bay bowties....



Speaking of VHF-Hi, I noticed your PBS (WITV) moved back to channel 7 (from 49). Have you tested any of your "better performers" from previous tests with WITV since it moved back to VHF?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Not yet, except for the recent quad on the roof with the CM 7777 amp.


CM 4220 no reception

AC G1483 Gray Hoverman, good reception, some trouble during weather, but generally watchable.

AD ClearStream1 Convertible, surprisingly some reception on 7, though not reliable, not during weather events (almost daily afternoon thunderstorms here).

RCA ANT751 best of the bunch on channel 7, but not as good on UHF, though not bad. Tighter beamwidth than any of these others as well.


In order from best to worst on channel 7


RCA ANT751 Log-Yagi VHF Hi with UHF Folded Dipole

AntennaCraft G1483 4 Bay Gray Hoverman

Antennas Direct ClearStream1 Convertible, Proprietary Loop with reflector

Channel Master 4220 2 bay Bowtie


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16670437
> 
> 
> In order from best to worst on channel 7
> 
> 
> RCA ANT751 Log-Yagi VHF with UHF Folded Dipole
> 
> AntennaCraft G1483 4 Bay Gray Hoverman
> 
> Antennas Direct ClearStream1 Convertible, Proprietary Loop with reflector
> 
> Channel Master 2 bay Bowtie



Cool, thanks. I suspect a lot more people are going to be interested in VHF performance now, with a lot of stations moving their digital signals to the high VHF frequency their analog used to use.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a slew of medium range outdoor antennas that could be used in attics or indoors. Lots of pics.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1150551


----------



## bluescreenoftom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16658705
> 
> 
> Post your TVfool.com data link.




Here's my data:
TVFool data 


You'll notice the slew of stations to the NE... those are the ones I want, particularly WJZ, WMAR, WBFF, and WBAL.


Any suggestions for indoor antennas?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is some more info on modifying antennas (especially 4 bay bowties) to improve VHF performance.

Ideas on how to turn a UHF antenna into a UHF/VHF antenna .


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Bluescreenoftom, some of the better indoor antenna options should work for you in yellow. Are you in DC trying get Baltimore?


WBAL channel 11 will be your most difficult target with an indoor solution....being VHF Hi, (albeit on the high side of the VHF Hi spectrum which is usually better for smaller antennas).


RS 1892 UFO

Terk HDTVa

Philips PHDTV3

Winegard SS 3000


----------



## bluescreenoftom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16670925
> 
> 
> Bluescreenoftom, some of the better indoor antenna options should work for you in yellow. Are you in DC trying get Baltimore?
> 
> 
> WBAL channel 11 will be your most difficult target with an indoor solution....being VHF Hi, (albeit on the high side of the VHF Hi spectrum which is usually better for smaller antennas).
> 
> 
> RS 1892 UFO
> 
> Terk HDTVa
> 
> Philips PHDTV3
> 
> Winegard SS 3000



Wow, that was fast... thanks.


Yes, I'm from Baltimore but have recently moved to the Rockville area because it's closer to my job. I'd love to be able to pick up the Baltimore channels (primarily because of the sports) and, before the switchover, our apartment was nice enough to pipe through the analog signal for the Baltimore stations on the same line they use to provide DirecTV access. Now that the analog signals are gone, I'm stuck.


I tried the RS UFO about 9 months back (before they were giving us the Baltimore signals in Analog) and was very unimpressed. In fact, I was getting only one channel with it, where I was getting 4 channels with standard "budget" rabbit ears/uhf loop. I suspect now that something must have been wrong with the partocular unit I picked up. I returned it. I might give it another shot before trying the Terk HDTVa.


Thanks for the advice! I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## PHOnos




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16670151
> 
> 
> Hey I dont make the rules. I think it is 5 posts needed in order to post a link.



OOPS, I meant AV not EV, sorry. And, thanks for the suggestions --


AntennaCraft Gray Hoverman 4 bay G 1483

Philips MANT950


RS UFO

Terk HDTVa


PHOnos


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16670843
> 
> 
> Here is some more info on modifying antennas (especially 4 bay bowties) to improve VHF performance.
> 
> * Ideas on how to turn a UHF antenna into a UHF/VHF antenna .*



That link didn't work....


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16671686
> 
> 
> That link didn't work....


 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1155233


----------



## JPowers




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16670279
> 
> 
> What is your building made of? Brick, metal roofs or siding (including hidden alumna-tape underneath the vinyl or other siding), stucco?
> 
> 
> The answer is maybe, cant hurt to try. That certainly is one of the better antennas. The UFO would work for you, its UHF elements rotate 360ish degrees, they just dont keep spinning in one direction forever.



I think these were built in 1978, and I doubt there's any heavy duty construction. The siding is brand new, and I'm guessing it's vinyl. The gutters are aluminum, because I see the Alcoa symbol on it. You can see the shingles above the front door. I haven't felt them, but they just look like regular tar shingles. Here's a Google street view picture of the townhouse. The red arrow up top points to my office, and the tv is against the wall on the left. You can see the compass in the top left of the screen:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2007-11/1288016/home.JPG 


Does the UFO provide stronger amplification than the HDTVa? I wasn't thinking properly in my earliest post where I confused 180 degrees with 360. Thanks again for the help!


----------



## nicoge21

I wouldn't bother trying to pick up stations in yellow with an indoor unit. Pretty much all of mine are yellow and I can get maybe what.......2 or 3 of them from the list. YMMV of course. Attic or roof for yellow and up..


of course if you don't want attic or roof, settle for what you get indoors


----------



## EscapeVelocity

All of my stations are yellow....except for the channel 16 at 23 miles and 120 degrees off axis from the Charleston tower cluster. As always, YMMV.


----------



## bluescreenoftom

I stopped by Radioshack and picked up their last UFO antenna. I brought it home, sat it in a NE-facing window, and gave it a shot. My results were similar to last time... all my local (green) UHF stations came in ok. I couldn't get any VHF stations to come in at all, even the ones in the green, no matter what I did. This surprises me as this works fine with my "budget" antenna.


I tried pulling in a Baltimore UHF station (WBFF)... I tuned manually to channel 46 and watched the signal on my DTT901. I then tried every possible position with the UFO and wasn't able to pull in a signal greater than 1/3 of the signal bar. I then moved the antenna a bit and tried again. Still no luck.


I'll be returning the UFO today... on to the Terk HDTVa...


----------



## Lazza

Based on my experience, the RS UFO is indeed problematic with weaker VHF stations. Positioning its rabbit ears is difficult, especially because the unit is a bit bulky. Thankfully I only have 3 VHF stations that I ever bother with, and really only one that is critical. I am usually able to get a reliable signal for all of them. But this was only after very careful positioning of the unit; I can see where for others the RS UFO would not do the job. Yet as noted, for UHF signals the RS UFO is excellent.


I agree with the comment about indoor antennas only being good for pulling in "green" stations (per TVFool). "yellow" stations are hit and miss.



_Lazza


----------



## nicoge21

took a look at the RS1892 at the local radioshack yesterday and the worker told me he sold ALL of them on june 13th. All that was left was a display model and it wasn't for sale.


the UHF part is about the size of a dinner plate and the dipoles only goes left and right, can't rotate them.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Well, the yellow is pushing the indoor antenna, depending on a bunch of factors. This is the impetus for the thread. Some people cant go in teh attic or the roof.


The TVfool people made the distinction Green and Yellow from indoor to medium range for a reason. The reason for this thread is to improve the chances of beating the odds.


----------



## mrgoodkat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16670279
> 
> 
> 
> The answer is maybe, cant hurt to try.




And that is the name of the game really, when it comes to indoor solutions, and even outdoor, to a lesser extent.


This whole thing is trial and error. I spent hundreds on antennas during the last year or so. In the end, the HDTVa is what worked best.


----------



## JPowers




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16668774
> 
> 
> If you have line of sight problems you have to keep the antenna tilted so it's aimed over the object that's in the way.



Maybe after I'm here for a while, I can mount a small antenna on the wooden fence that divides the porches. It would have to be aimed pretty high, though! When I say there's a hill behind the house, I'm not talking in the distance. It's right there.


I'm not having too many problems upstairs. It all depends on the weather. Hot and dry seems worse than a thunderstorm, which causes things to break up. This evening, I'm pulling in 5 yellow stations, and the other day I was able to get a pink station that's 42.6 miles away from me with my Terk TV-5. This antenna has been great for me at my 2 previous addresses, but I'd like to try something more directional.


----------



## Cbl12886

I was hoping someone could recommend me an antenna. My wife and I just bought a house that is 100% concrete (Inside and Outside walls). We have not moved in yet (renovations will continue for a few more weeks) so I have not been able to try the reception. We life right outside Orlando, FL but do not want to spend the $50 a month for Cable TV, just internet for now. In the back of the house, there is a 10-12' pole with a outdoor light on it. I was thinking about putting a small antenna on it towards the top and running the cable along the outside of the house. The poll is in the southeast side of the house, which is pointing towards all the stations. The only problem however is that there is a big two story house which it will not clear. The pole is taller than our roof though. Also, the antenna would have to be pretty minimal looking or my wife would not be too pleased. Any suggestions?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...663d6fcf3117b6


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Pics of RCA ANT751


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Antennas Direct ClearStream1 Convertible


----------



## EscapeVelocity

AntennaCraft G1483 "4 Bay" Gray Hoverman


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Group on Roof


----------



## Cbl12886

Out of that group I think the small clear stream would be good. I don't think I could ever convince my wife to have it any higher than the poll however. How would the DA-5200, Winegard Squareshooter, or the Lacrosse do in my situation?


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cbl12886* /forum/post/16680644
> 
> 
> I was hoping someone could recommend me an antenna. My wife and I just bought a house that is 100% concrete (Inside and Outside walls). We have not moved in yet (renovations will continue for a few more weeks) so I have not been able to try the reception. We life right outside Orlando, FL but do not want to spend the $50 a month for Cable TV, just internet for now. In the back of the house, there is a 10-12' pole with a outdoor light on it. I was thinking about putting a small antenna on it towards the top and running the cable along the outside of the house. The poll is in the southeast side of the house, which is pointing towards all the stations. The only problem however is that there is a big two story house which it will not clear. The pole is taller than our roof though. Also, the antenna would have to be pretty minimal looking or my wife would not be too pleased. Any suggestions?
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...663d6fcf3117b6



You should have very little problem finding an antenna that will work, flat land, strong signals, Line of Sight to the towers, pole on correct side of house.


The only hitch is the neighbors house. What is his house made of, siding, roofing material, (super secret aluminum foil tape under siding sheathing) etc?


Assumming your neighbors house is wood construction with no major problem materials....


You only have one station on the high side of VHF Hi, Channel 11, NBC. So you need some VHF gain.


RCA ANT751 Best performance on VHF, very good not great performance on UHF. Tight beamwidth, most balanced antenna on UHF and VHF Hi in this lineup. Its mounting cantilevers and is thus higher stress on the poll than most of these others. Made in USA. Still should use an amplifier though.


Channel Master 2016 Great performance on UHF, VHF dipoles will give you enough on VHF for Channel 11. 2nd best performance of these antennas on VHF Hi.


Winegard Square Shooter 1000 Some performance on VHF Hi, especially in conjuction with the CM 7777 amplifier. Not as good on UHF as any of these others.


Antennas Direct ClearStream1 or ClearStream2 These have great UHF performance and wide beamwidths....they perform on VHF about as good maybe a tad better than the CM 4221....the CM 7777 amp will help with that VHF channel.


Channel Master 4221 Old recently discontinued style (American Made) not the newer Chinese ones....Great UHF performance....this offers some gain on VHF Hi, but I wouldnt call it a VHF Hi antenna, though it may be enough. Very solidly built...galvanized steel. The CM 7777 amp will help with that VHF channel.


Winegard Batwing (with wingman UHF option)



I would pair any of these with an amplifier like the Channel Master 7777. This should give you enough oomph to push through any likely length of cable (use RG6), and several splitters.


====


This article from the HDTVexpert seems right up your alley. Check it out.


Five (Antennas) To Get Ready


PETER PUTMAN, CTS

http://hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/Five_Antennas.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cbl12886* /forum/post/16680733
> 
> 
> Out of that group I think the small clear stream would be good. I don't think I could ever convince my wife to have it any higher than the poll however. How would the DA-5200, Winegard Squareshooter, or the Lacrosse do in my situation?



The Winegard Square Shooter may work. See above.


The Philips MANT940 is a possibility as well although it comes with an inferior (to the CM 7777) amplifier. Its worth a shot....mount it "sideways" with the wedge upwards to shed rain....the horizontal orientation is beneficial for VHF reception. Its a similar but better choice than the RS DA 5200 because of that VHF Hi station.



The DB2 and Lacrosse are similar and I couldnt say if it would pick up Channel 11 reliably. I would try the Antennas Direct C1 or C2 first though. I was picking up channel 7 at 45 miles in my bad tree situation on the roof with the CM 7777 amplifier, though not reliably. My signal is -70dbm though and your higher Channel 11 (which should help with reception using a smaller antenna) is -30dbm. I think the AD CS1 or CS2 will probably work for you.


If you dont care about 11 NBC, then it would be much easier. Many more and smaller antennas would work. But I think that 11 is doable in a small antenna at your location.


----------



## lashag

Located in Westminster , SC 29693, have DB2 amp and about 10' above rooftop. Receiving 100% on all UFH channels, however not receiving 13 or 7. Looking at EZ HD, HBU22 or CM 7694 as replacement. Would appreciate any thought. Txs


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The EZ HD should be plenty....much, much better VHF Hi performance than the DB2.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Convenient Winegard Antenna Comparison Chart at Solid Signal


----------



## spokybob

EV: WHBF returned to VHF-LO on Friday. The UHF Utubes will not pick it up, even 20 miles away, and I am about 28 miles. I tried the MANT 510 again. Even when outside at ground level, no RF4. I tried it again at a friends apartment on the 3rd floor. It will not lock in solid despite moving it all around & adjusting the dipoles.

I rate this one a dud. It did not work in Peoria,IL either, on a previous test.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I have no experience with VHF Lo digitial. Sounds like a nightmare.


Hollands posted a fantastic smallish 5 element yagi for a DIY project. You can mount the wires on carboard for a trial version. Its in The Official Antenna Topic! thread in the last couple of pages.


----------



## lashag




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lashag* /forum/post/16683224
> 
> 
> Located in Westminster , SC 29693, have DB2 amp and about 10' above rooftop. Receiving 100% on all UFH channels, however not receiving 13 or 7. Looking at EZ HD, HBU22 or CM 7694 as replacement. Would appreciate any thought. Txs



Txs for the response. So the EZ HD of the three would be the best choice then? Is it entirely different that the RCA ANT751? Txs


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16683913
> 
> 
> I have no experience with VHF Lo digitial. Sounds like a nightmare.



One of the stations not far from me (KCWX) is going to be on RF5 when they go live in July. It'll be interesting to hear how many people will be able to pick it up at all, let alone with rabbit ears.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lashag* /forum/post/16684046
> 
> 
> Txs for the response. So the EZ HD of the three would be the best choice then? Is it entirely different that the RCA ANT751? Txs



Any of those 3 should work. The EZ HD should be plenty and is the smallest, however please not that its mounting position is not balanced and the cantilever action puts stress on the pole. If you have an iffy pole to mount it on, Id be wary.


The RCA ANT751 and the EZ HD are the same antenna as far as I can tell.


----------



## holl_ands

*EV (or anyone else):*

IDRick provided detailed measurements for the EZ-HD in posts #1643 and #1652.

Can someone compare to RCA ANT751 to see if there are any differences???


PS: What kind of roof is that??? Looks like metal???


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Tin plated, alumnized painted, steel as far as I can gather.


I can take some reference point measurements on the RCA ANT751.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here are a couple of DIY antenna suggestions from eham.net.

http://www.eham.net/forums/Elmers/223484 



> Quote:
> Pull 64 inches of 18ga or heavier wire from your junque box and cut it at 16 inches from one end. Attach a length of RG-6 or similar to this point with the longer wire to the center pin, shorter wire to the shield. Pin the wire to a convenient wall or cabinet back as high as possible.
> 
> 
> This will cover VHF-HI through UHF with a mostly omni pattern.



This site was referenced...



> Quote:
> How to Make a TV Antenna for HDTV
> 
> http://www.tvantennaplans.com/



This UHF Yagi looks great...



> Quote:
> A Cheap and EZ HDTV Antenna Project
> 
> www.wa5vjb.com/references/CheapYagi4HDTV.pdf


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a DIY VHF Hi Yagi...


HatTip Holl_ands who says...



> Quote:
> K6STI (FM Antenna Modeling and Yagi Optimizer) posted an optimized 75-ohm Hi-VHF
> 
> Yagi design on our local forum that provided moderate Gain (7.25-9.25 dBi), excellent
> 
> F/B (22++ dB) and F/R Ratios (22+ dB) across the ENTIRE Hi-VHF Band (Ch7-13):






> Quote:
> Channel 7–13 TV 5 Element Yagi
> 
> http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/vhftv.htm


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Good atmospherics tonight, I did a rescan and picked up the UHF Savannah stations, Im thinking about mounting the CM 4221 opposite the AntennaCraft Gray Hoverman and putting another amp in and an A/B switch.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a good page about how RF signals in the VHF Lo, VHF Hi, and UHF spectrum are affected by obstructions. Good stuff to know about to improve your chances of selecting a sweet spot.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

DIY Gray Hoverman talk, pics, measurements, designs, etc....



> Quote:
> Hoverman HDTV UHF antenna
> 
> http://www.jedsoft.org/fun/antennas/dtv/gh.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think I might use my variable attenuator to measure the signal to cliff gap, in order to get solid data on the relative performance of these antennas.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16685781
> 
> 
> Here is a DIY VHF Hi Yagi...
> 
> 
> HatTip Holl_ands who says...



On 19June, K6STI replaced Original 5-Element Swept Back Driver Yagi with RevA,

with small improvements in Gain and SWR:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/vhftv.htm 


I updated 4nec2 analysis charts here:
www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis 

I did not need to change Folded Dipole Variant...it's still based on Original dimensions.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16687003
> 
> 
> I think I might use my variable attenuator to measure the signal to cliff gap, in order to get solid data on the relative performance of these antennas.



Please do! That would very useful information! Thanks for posting all the pictures earlier. You have quite a collection of antennas!


Best,


Rick


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I looked at my variable attenuator and it isnt marked except 0db and 20db on the dial. Do you know if these are linear voltage reductions or geometric exponential, etc?


ie Can I just place 19 equidistant marks along the dial and suppose +/- 1db ?


----------



## IDRick

Good question, EV. I don't know if that would work with your variable attenuator. I personally use individual attenuators. I have 2-20dB's, 1-10dB, 1-6dB, 1-3dB, and 2-1dB.


----------



## Rammitinski

Hey EV - don't mean to press ya', but when you gonna get to that 1880 clone review? A lot of people have been doing their darnedest to wait patiently for that.


Also, you really should consider doing some more testing with at least hi-VHF - since so many people here have had channels switch back to it, and are now looking for new antennas to deal with it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Peter Putman, aka the HDTVexpert



> Quote:
> Got HDTV?
> 
> 
> By Pete Putman, CTS and ISF • March, 2003
> 
> 
> Home Theatre Magazine
> 
> http://www.hometheatermag.com/bootcamp/156/index.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

My problem Rammitinski is that not having possession of the Zenith DTT901, I dont have a device to measure the antennas against each others.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> In order from best to worst on channel 7
> 
> 
> RCA ANT751 Log-Yagi VHF Hi with UHF Folded Dipole
> 
> AntennaCraft G1483 4 Bay Gray Hoverman
> 
> Antennas Direct ClearStream1 Convertible, Proprietary Loop with reflector
> 
> Channel Master 4220 2 bay Bowtie



Heh, not too surprising a result, the ANT751, being the only vhf-hi antenna of the group, should have outperformed the others by a large margin on channel 7. The AntennaCraft G1483 should have a negative net gain on vhf-hi channel 7.


Since you have the best un-bent-up example of the G1483, could you post the dimensions of it ?

For the elements, I would need center of wire to center of wire measurements of : stub length, length of the legs (Assuming all the legs and stubs are the same length, correct ?) approx wire gauge or diameter of elements, and the distance between the elements (feedpoint distance) and the reflector to element distance.

For the reflector rods, I would need the center of rod to center of rod measurements of each of the split reflector rods (I assume they are split) and the gap distance, the vertical distance each rod to each other, and the diameter of the rods (it looks like common 3/8 inch stuff).

Is the boom 3/4 inch square or 1 inch square ? I would need a rough discription of the boom to element standoffs, distance at bottom and top (it looks like a 1/2 inch aluminum strip about 1/16 inch thick ?) Thanks.


If the G1483 is true to form with most of rest of the GH colinear rod models, then an addition of a 31.5 inch NAROD (Not A Reflector Or Director) should give you positive net gain on channels 7, 8, 9. Position a (youll need 2) 31.5 inch straight wire of similiar diameter as the element, exactly .5 inches center of wire to center of wire parallel and above the top stubs and below the bottom stubs. The wire is electrically isolated from any other part of the antenna, ie its free floating with just plastic strips holding it in place. A picture is better than describing, so when finished the G1483 should look something like this:









The compromise with the NAROD vhf-hi versions is about a .5 to 1.5 dbi less uhf gain, mostly with a gain dip in the channel 40 region.

For channels 10, 11, 12, 13 use a 28.0 inch NAROD length.

For channels 8,9,10 and a good compromise overall, use a 30.25 inch NAROD length.

For additional gain on channels 7,8,9 but harder and trickier to install, you could put a NAROD reflector 12.5 inches behind the NAROD. (For channels 10 to 13, the distance is 10 inches. For channels 8, 9, 10 the distance is 11.5 inches)


----------



## Cbl12886

*@EscapeVelocity*


I think I am going to buy the Channel Master 2016 and 50' of RG-6 since it is cheap and has good performance. I will try it first without any amplification. I have a few other questions however. What is the best way to mount it to the poll, which is actually not a poll at all but a tall 4x4 piece of wood. Can I mount it to the top without buying any extra hardware? If I have to I could buy the clearstream j-mount which might just mount to the very top of the wood. Or, is there something similar that would be cheaper. Also, we are going to be running a new electrical line for our new electric range and one for a new outlet for where the TV will go in the same conduit. I was thinking of running the coax cable for the tv through the same whole in the back of the house (Not in the conduit but it will run next to it). Will this affect the signal in anyway being so close to so much current?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks, Ill try that 300 ohm!



Antenna Buying Tips

http://fridgefta.emenace.com/forums/...ad.php?tid=505


----------



## EscapeVelocity

In addition to the C5 from Antennas Direct, here is another compact VHF Hi solution....


Kathrein Scala DRV

http://www.kathrein-scala.com/catalog/DRV.pdf


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Delhi 4 Bay Bowties...


4BT 1483 with reflector and 4BT SL with no screen bi directional.

http://www.tacocommunications.com/Wa...20Antennas.pdf


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cbl12886* /forum/post/16691616
> 
> *@EscapeVelocity*
> 
> 
> I think I am going to buy the Channel Master 2016 and 50' of RG-6 since it is cheap and has good performance. I will try it first without any amplification. I have a few other questions however. What is the best way to mount it to the poll, which is actually not a poll at all but a tall 4x4 piece of wood. Can I mount it to the top without buying any extra hardware? If I have to I could buy the clearstream j-mount which might just mount to the very top of the wood. Or, is there something similar that would be cheaper. Also, we are going to be running a new electrical line for our new electric range and one for a new outlet for where the TV will go in the same conduit. I was thinking of running the coax cable for the tv through the same whole in the back of the house (Not in the conduit but it will run next to it). Will this affect the signal in anyway being so close to so much current?



That question is beyond my technical knowledge, however, If it were me, I would do it and not worry about it to much, if I was just messing around with no one looking over my shoulder for electrical regulations and codes.


A J mount would work. You could probably just use some deep 4 inch wood screws and washers through the boom where the U bolt and hardware for the pole mount go....right into the side of the 4x4.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16689664
> 
> 
> I looked at my variable attenuator and it isnt marked except 0db and 20db on the dial. Do you know if these are linear voltage reductions or geometric exponential, etc?
> 
> 
> ie Can I just place 19 equidistant marks along the dial and suppose +/- 1db ?



Probably NOT. It's probably non-linear....

I "calibrated" my R-S 15-678 RF Attenuator using signal level measurements

in my cable box diagnostic menus.

(Apex 502 CECB "calibrations" cited elsewhere could also work).

*On R-S 15-678:*

0 dB is at 7-o'clock

3 dB is 9-o'clock

6 dB is 10-o'clock

10 dB is 10:45-o'clock

13 dB is 12 noon

15 dB is 1 o'clock

18 dB is 2 o'clock

20 dB is 3 o'clock

max is 5 o'clock, but cable box couldn't measure that far down.


Hope this helps....it's not a precision attenuator.

I also have some fixed attenuators that are pretty accurate,

so I can keep the R-S to the more accurate low range, such as:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...prod=CP2503-10


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15810974
> 
> 
> Due to the very tough performance spec, ALL coupon eligible converter boxes
> 
> use the latest, very high performance, 6th Gen chips. The Air2PC is 3rd Gen.
> 
> 
> I presume the "passthrough device/box" is an RF Signal Splitter???
> 
> If so, it causes a 4 dB loss...which is very significant.
> 
> Separate antennas would eliminate this loss.



I asked the company that made my HDTV tuner cards. He said it was first generation. Yikes!! Even worse than third.










So currently is sixth. What generation does Zeinth's 4/2008 converter boxes and dTV Pal (got it in late of 2008) boxes use since I notice they handle my TV feeds much better, especially on the same antenna (4 outputs splitter)?


Any cheap and latest cards to use in Windows XP Pro. SP3 and Linux? I bought air2pc to use in Linux and Windows.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have a few other questions however. What is the best way to mount it to the poll, which is actually not a poll at all but a tall 4x4 piece of wood. Can I mount it to the top without buying any extra hardware? If I have to I could buy the clearstream j-mount which might just mount to the very top of the wood. Or, is there something similar that would be cheaper.



Actually, you have a good opportunity there. Since the CM2016 is very light, you could get away with using cheap 3/4" metal EMT conduit (about $2 - $3 per 10 ft at Lowes) all the way to the ground. Fasten the metal EMT firmly, but not too tightly to the 4 X 4 pole with cheap metal EMT mounting clamps (about 25 cents each) and longer than 1 inch screws. Put the bottom end of the metal EMT pipe into another piece of scrap pipe (just larger than the EMT) thats been banged into the ground. Then you can rotate the antenna by hand (or pipe wrench) while standing on the ground to home in on the signal. I use a setup very similar like that on my garage antenna. Cheap and easy to install and uninstall.



> Quote:
> Also, we are going to be running a new electrical line for our new electric range and one for a new outlet for where the TV will go in the same conduit. I was thinking of running the coax cable for the tv through the same whole in the back of the house (Not in the conduit but it will run next to it). Will this affect the signal in anyway being so close to so much current?



Yeah, it could. In that situation, you would want to use quad shield RG6 and keep it away from the electrical line as far as possible. (and use metal EMT conduit instead of plastic for the range wires too) The electric range probably doesnt kick out a lot of noise, but who knows what else will go on that circuit in the future.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> What generation does Zeinth's 4/2008 converter boxes and dTV Pal (got it in late of 2008) boxes use since I notice they handle my TV feeds much better, especially on the same antenna (4 outputs splitter)?
> 
> 
> Any cheap and latest cards to use in Windows XP Pro. SP3 and Linux? I bought air2pc to use in Linux and Windows.



Those CECB boxes use the 6th generation tuners.


The Hauppage 950Q (which I played with and it was sensitive) and the FusionHD USB TVcards are 6th generation too, from what Ive been told. Other ATSC TVcards seem to be older generation, at least so far, but keep a look out on the newest models.

A Hauppage 950Q is in use on a MythTV setup in Linux by a forum member on another forum, so it does work fine on both WinXP Pro and Linux. (the included software, as typical, isnt that good)


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16696766
> 
> 
> Those CECB boxes use the 6th generation tuners.
> 
> 
> The Hauppage 950Q (which I played with and it was sensitive) and the FusionHD USB TVcards are 6th generation too, from what Ive been told. Other ATSC TVcards seem to be older generation, at least so far, but keep a look out on the newest models.
> 
> A Hauppage 950Q is in use on a MythTV setup in Linux by a forum member on another forum, so it does work fine on both WinXP Pro and Linux. (the included software, as typical, isnt that good)



Currently, I use DVB Viewer TE and Pro (helping the developers with ATSC stuff) in Windows XP Pro. SP3. Can Hauppage 950Q use DVB Viewer? If not, then what does it use?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phildaant* /forum/post/16696803
> 
> 
> Currently, I use DVB Viewer TE and Pro (helping the developers with ATSC stuff) in Windows XP Pro. SP3. Can Hauppage 950Q use DVB Viewer? If not, then what does it use?



Dont know, but DVB Viewer TE and Pro have forum. The good thing about the Hauppage 950Q is that its pretty popular. (oh yeah, you dont want to use the toy antenna that comes with it, heh)


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16691705
> 
> 
> In addition to the C5 from Antennas Direct, here is another compact VHF Hi solution....
> 
> 
> Kathrein Scala DRV
> 
> http://www.kathrein-scala.com/catalog/DRV.pdf



Those are intended for low-power transmitters. Starting at around $1500, they make the AD units look like bargains!


The first C5s should be in the hands of their new owners starting in the next day or so. Around 40 -50 were shipped to station engineers around the country and another 60 or so were shipped to the first customers. I was told the initial small shipment is almost gone and the balance of the first production batch should arrive the first week of July.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16696945
> 
> 
> Dont know, but DVB Viewer TE and Pro have forum. The good thing about the Hauppage 950Q is that its pretty popular. (oh yeah, you dont want to use the toy antenna that comes with it, heh)



What softwares does Hauppage 950Q use in Windows? Obviously MythTV in Linux.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16697116
> 
> 
> Those are intended for low-power transmitters. Starting at around $1500, they make the AD units look like bargains!
> 
> 
> The first C5s should be in the hands of their new owners starting in the next day or so. Around 40 -50 were shipped to station engineers around the country and another 60 or so were shipped to the first customers. I was told the initial small shipment is almost gone and the balance of the first production batch should arrive the first week of July.



Yup. Mine is set to be delievered on Thursday.


----------



## Frankie20

I found two stores on eBay that are selling Radio Shack 1880 look a likes, they seem a little better since they can be rotated by remote control. Has anyone here ever tried one of these antenna's?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im gonna pick one of those up Frankie.


This is one that has escaped me till now, the Terk HDTVo . It looks like a Terk HDTVa/HDTVi UHF log periodic head which should give it good performance on UHF, with a VHF Hi dipole that acts as a reflector as well. Looks like a winner for indoor and balcony/porch applications. Its a bit pricy. Whatever your opinion is of Terk antennas, they do seem to generally have pretty high build quality standards. This one gets high ratings on Amazons site. It looks like a winner.












Here is the Cornet EDT-8DA which is very similar looking but with longer VHF arms (maybe not longer but just wider). I just picked one up. Sadly, Im not made of money and cant spring for the Terk HDTVo to inspect them side by side. (Note: I also sold the Terk HDTVa).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Which one of these should I try?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> What softwares does Hauppage 950Q use in Windows?



Besides the included software, all the trial versions of HDTV tuner software I googled / downloaded and tried with it, about 7 different ones IIRC. I didnt come across any that didnt work with it. My main interest was recording shows, and software varies greatly with that. Dont ask me which was my favorite, as it was over 7 months ago that I played with it, and Im sure there some better software available now, heh. From what I understand, even the latest (download from their site) Hauppauge software is much much better.


Since I still have a 480i CRT display device, Im still getting along with my antique ATI TV Wonder VE and a CECB box, heh.


I got the 950Q last Black Friday at Circuit City for $19.95 as a gift for someone. It came in a box labeled PVR-850 on the outside. Naturally I had to test it out to see if it wasnt DOA, heh. On the inside, there was a note from Hauppauge explaining that since they had run out of PVR-850's they substituted the PVR-950Q, and hoped I wouldnt mind, heh.


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16703425
> 
> 
> Besides the included software, all the trial versions of HDTV tuner software I googled / downloaded and tried with it, about 7 different ones IIRC. I didnt come across any that didnt work with it. My main interest was recording shows, and software varies greatly with that. Dont ask me which was my favorite, as it was over 7 months ago that I played with it, and Im sure there some better software available now, heh. From what I understand, even the latest (download from their site) Hauppauge software is much much better.



Oh that's good! I got frustrated with the limited software selections in Windows for Air2PC. I had to use DVB Viewers.










What are the best players for Windows and I assume excellent ATSC support? DVB Viewers were weak for ATSC since they were designed for European.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Which one of these should I try?



I believe the bottom one is the more common ebay one ??. They also come with a built in rotor, correct ? I would like to see how poorly those are built.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16697723
> 
> 
> Yup. Mine is set to be delievered on Thursday.



Let us all know how it works for you.


AD sold out yesterday of the initial air-freight shipment. Balance of order is due in 2-3 weeks.


----------



## JNinCA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16702543
> 
> 
> Im gonna pick one of those up Frankie.
> 
> 
> This is one that has escaped me till now, the Terk HDTVo . It looks like a Terk HDTVa/HDTVi UHF log periodic head which should give it good performance on UHF, with a VHF Hi dipole that acts as a reflector as well. Looks like a winner for indoor and balcony/porch applications. Its a bit pricy. Whatever your opinion is of Terk antennas, they do seem to generally have pretty high build quality standards. This one gets high ratings on Amazons site. It looks like a winner.
> 
> 
> Here is the Cornet EDT-8DA which is very similar looking but with longer VHF arms (maybe not longer but just wider). I just picked one up. Sadly, Im not made of money and cant spring for the Terk HDTVo to inspect them side by side. (Note: I also sold the Terk HDTVa).



I'm unconvinced that the HDTVoutdoor could be easily mounted indoors. Kind of big and jagged, unless someone is in a real pinch.


Does your sale of the HDTVa mean you were running low of money, or that you dislike it?


I'm asking because I'm using an HDTVlp, which works like a charm for me, but some people are complaining about its VHF performance. I was wondering if I could recommend the HDTVa instead. I figure the HDTVa should be the same as any other amplified dipole on VHF hi.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The sale of the HDTVa reflects an the desire to acquire more antennas and test them.


----------



## Lord_Zath

yeah I'd hate to visit your place after you've reviewed every antenna known to man and kept them all!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Terk TV-35*












> Quote:
> • 10 Elements
> 
> 
> • 54-806MHz Operational Bandwidth
> 
> 
> • VHF Gain: 0-4dB
> 
> 
> • UHF Gain: 2.5-8.5dB
> 
> 
> • VHF Beamwidth: + or - 35 degrees
> 
> 
> • UHF Beamwidth: + or - 15 degrees
> 
> 
> • VHF Front-to-Back Ratio: 12dB
> 
> 
> • UHF Front-to-Back Ratio: 15dB



This one is kinda like the RCA ANT751/EZ HD clones however its VHF Hi performance isnt as good. Its VHF Lo performance is better though, if you have a VHF Lo station. And its UHF performance is lower on the lower UHF TV band and better on the upper UHF band (especially the part that has been recently phased out). Probably pretty high quality build, typical of Terk. The Terk is significantly wider thant he RCA ANT751/EZ HD (Rear Element).


You can see it in action here.



> Quote:
> Home, Home On The Fringe
> 
> 
> PETER PUTMAN, CTS
> 
> 
> HDTVexpert.com




The RCA ANT751/EZ HD looks like a better antenna compromise for most people these days, except if you need VHF Lo.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Lava 463*


Initial impression, hooked it up only briefly. Cheapishly made, especially in comparison to the RS 1880. Smaller than the 1880. Wont perform as good, but probably better than your average amplified RE and Loop.











Next to RS 1880 for size comparison.











Backside of Lava 643 (Inputs and Outputs)


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*GE Optima (older style) Unamplified and Philips SDV2750/27*


The GE Optima (older style) is well built, heavy-ish. This is the unamplified version and has twin lead out and a push on 300ohm to 75ohm matching transformer balun. It has very effective suction cups on the bottom of the unit for stable mounting. Smaller than I was anticipating. We'll see how she performs.


The Philips SDV2750 is available at walmart. Its replaces the MANT510. Its lighter weight than the MANT510 and seems to be more cheaply made. Initial impression, skip this one and look for a MANT510.





























Backside of Philips.











Group shot with Lava 643.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Channel Master 4040
*


Initial impressions, havent hooked it up yet.


A little smaller than the Terk HDTVa/HDTVi and the Silver Sensor. Not nearly as well built as the Terk HDTVa/i....but better than the Silver Sensor. This one doesnt seem to be log periodic but rather a UHF yagi. Very long lightly shielded coax cable is permanently attached.


I dont think this one will perform as well at the Terk and Silver Sensor, but it might surprise.















































Group shot


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*GE Quantum*





























Initial impression, havent hooked it up yet. Smallish. The outside panels arent as big as the center panel. Single VHF telescoping whip antenna on azimuth and altitude mounting joint for adjustment. 12v DC power input. Lightly shielded coax is permanently attached and longish.


Not expecting much out of this one.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Vintage VHF set top antenna


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Just picked up this....

*Leviton*


----------



## phildaant

Question: Does having a better antenna setup (e.g., higher location) help first generation HDTV tuners that can't do well like multipaths or whatever?


I noticed converter boxes (6th generation) get good feeds compared to my first generation HDTV tuner cards in my PC with the same DB2 bowtie antenna, location, etc..


Thank you in advance.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Higher is better....is a generalization, truism with antennas....its concerned with getting a clean unobstructed signal above the radio horizon Line of Sight, and other things like that.


More directional and tighter beamwidth is better for multipath rejection at the antenna level, before it gets to your tuners.


The trouble with VHF is that highly directional and high gain VHF antenna designs are very big and thus not suited to indoors or patios, but can manage in larger attics and of course on rooftops.


A good VHF Hi antenna to try is the VHF Hi 5 element yagi that Hollands referenced and I posted a few pages back. Its not too big (35inches or so) and thus is a possible savior for indoor antenna solutions, for people having trouble with multipath, weak VHF signals or some combination.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*GFX 100* on the way


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Holl_ands and IDRick.


I checked measurements on the RCA ANT751 against IDRicks measurements of the EZ HD, they are exactly the same.


----------



## IDRick

Alright! I thought the two antennas were the same (EZ HD and RCA ANT751).


----------



## RobCt

I decided to join here because of all the good info I found here. I'm an old AV/car audio/12volt guy that quit the business 15 years ago.


Great work on testing all those antennas EscapeVelocity!


I found this place because I am trying to find the best DTV antenna myself.


I found this Chinese antenna co. that makes many of those Ebay antennas.


It actually looks like they may know what they are doing, though I always prefer American made products (had to find now sadly).


Walito is the co., I can't post links yet.


I would love to see some tests and thoughts on some of their designs.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Rob, a lot of those Chinese companies are retail fronts. Fronts isnt really the right word, the Chinese manufacturing sector is weird.


----------



## RobCt

Hard to find now my post should say, and that really is sad. Though I posted the info for the Chinese co., I will always buy American if I still can.


----------



## RobCt

Wow..quick reply. I know what you are saying. I didn't really look into them, but maybe I will (I'm good at that).


I would still be interested if they are the usual Chinese junk or the rare decent product though.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah Channel Master shut down its US antenna manufacturing operation last year.


There are a few US choices though.


The RCA ANT751 and the EZ HD (probably made by Winegard),


Winegard 4400


and a little upstart Godar which makes AM and FM and TV antennas, of which I can highly recommend the Godar Model 1, low profile UHF log periodic design combined with VHF rabbit ear telescoping adjustable dipoles.


----------



## RobCt

I'm almost ready to go buy the ANT751 at my closest Walmart that still has one because I really like buying in person instead of online. I probably will. I WILL be happier with an American made antenna I know for sure (even if it is only in my mind).


This makes me think this Co. may be legit though, based on limited research.

http://walito.en.alibaba.com/column/...tificates.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im not saying its a bogus company, its complicated.



Anyways, the RCA ANT751 is well made and a pretty good antenna. Post your TVfool, and I can give you recs and let you know if the RCA ANT751 is satisfactory for your needs.


----------



## Frankie20




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16709728
> 
> 
> Yeah Channel Master shut down its US antenna manufacturing operation last year.



No wonder why the Channel Master 4149 twin bowtie antenna is no longer available...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That one was actually made in China. Summit Source had the last of the remaining old stock discontinued. Ill have to update the front page.


----------



## RobCt

I know. I,m just saying they have some interesting (and strange) antennas.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618adadf5d83b8 


Do you think the musical notes coming from the speaker? will help my reception (lol)?

http://www.walito.com/products-big.asp?id=327 


All joking aside, I would appreciate your expertise on my antenna needs because I am in a bad signal area (river valley).


Thanks.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Can you put an antenna in the attic or on the roof or outdoors? or are you limited to balconies or indoors?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

China has micro manufacturers that produce antennas and they are affiliated with several distribution conglomerates and most often these antennas are offered through several of these conglomerates, the exact same antennas. You can get a middle man and directly buy from the micro manufacturers yourself.


As I said its complicated.


----------



## RobCt

It's the same with almost all Chinese products, I know. It started when I was still in the business.


Back to my antenna....it is on an RV that will mostly be parked. I have a Wineguard 2000 "disc" antenna that I have hated for years. The more compact the better I think for my needs. I was thinking a clear stream 2 so far, or the AN751.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Does the Winegard 2000 work well for you?


Those are 2 good compact antennas, however the C2 wont get you the VHF in yellow even amped reliably. The C2 is much better on UHF than the RCA ANT751, however the RCA ANT751 is much better o VHF Hi.


The RCA ANT751 may be enough combined with an amplifier though, like the CM 7777 or a Motorola BDA....both nice low noise amps.


The Channel Master 2016 is also worth consideration. Not quite as good on UHF as the C2 and not quite as good on VHF Hi as the RCA ANT751.


----------



## JChin

I enter my info on TVFool and looking for an indoor antenna or maybe to place in the attic. Can you suggest a good indoor antenna for my location. I was thinking of getting the HDA-5700 from monoprice but don't know if its any good. TIA


----------



## RobCt

The only channels I got on the 2000 where I am before the switch were WVIT and WEDN. My TV is analog and I have been waiting to order a new one because I am worried I may need a larger antenna setup here than is practical for an RV. Tvfool seems to indicate I can get many channels with a good antenna but antennaweb shows only 2.


----------



## RobCt

Thanks EV for your help. I'll check back about my setup. Keep up the good work helping all those you do. I know you help many here.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The C2 with a high power amp like the CM 7777 will probably get you most of the UHF up to -90 dbm mark. You might even be able to set it in one nuanced place and forget it, though being able to rotate it a bit will help on specific stations. That would net you an ABC on 40 if the one on Real Channel 10 doesnt pick up, and also an NBC on 35 but probably not on 11.


Looking at it like that, the C2 could be a solution.


The RCA ANT751 and the CM 2016 are strong contenders as well. You might have to buy and try, then keep the one that best suits you, all could benefit from a CM 7777 amplifier.


You actually could step up to a Winegard 7694 which is also made in the USA. That was my initial reaction to the TVfool without any other info, such as you wanting to keep it small. This would without question serve you well. But if you want to downsize, the above 3 are good propositions especially with the CM 7777 amp.....but will take some experimentation.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Vintage VHF set top antenna



That one doesnt even have a model number on it, so it may be one of their firsts.

http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/tricraft_600.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Rob concievably, the Antennas Direct DB2 and or the ClearStream1 could work for you with the CM 7777 amplifier as well. The DB2 aint that much below the ClearStream2 and Ive been very impressed with the ClearStream1 as well....but the C1 may be pushing it.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16709728
> 
> 
> Yeah Channel Master shut down its US antenna manufacturing operation last year.
> 
> 
> There are a few US choices though.
> 
> 
> The RCA ANT751 and the EZ HD (probably made by Winegard),
> 
> 
> Winegard 4400
> 
> 
> and a little upstart Godar which makes AM and FM and TV antennas, of which I can highly recommend the Godar Model 1, low profile UHF log periodic design combined with VHF rabbit ear telescoping adjustable dipoles.



Isnt Antennacraft still American made ?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Not sure on that. I think I saw an AC 13 from a Chinese manufacturer.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Preliminary results on recent indoor antennas.


The Lava 463 is very good, not quite the match of the 1880 but almost. I think it loses to it in the lower UHF band. Note amplified.


CM 4040 is a winner. Note not amplified.


AD C1C with reflector not quite the match of the DB2 but right behind it. The CM 4040 was its superior to the C1C though. All three unamped when tested.


Philips SDV2750 was a decent mid level performer, better than the others below. Note amplified.


GE Optima couldnt match the RCA ANT108, both were very poor at my distance. Note not amplified.


The GE Quantum was slightly better than the Optima and the RCA ANT108 but nothing to write home about. Note amplified.



All tested with 6 ft coax to RS Variable Antenuator to either attached coax or another 6 ft of coax to antenna.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JChin* /forum/post/16709965
> 
> 
> I enter my info on TVFool and looking for an indoor antenna or maybe to place in the attic. Can you suggest a good indoor antenna for my location. I was thinking of getting the HDA-5700 from monoprice but don't know if its any good. TIA



J Chin, sorry I missed your post.


The Monoprice antenna would probably be pretty good, but you may not get CBS channel 11 and ABC channel 8.


If you had your heart set on that small antenna so you can mount outdoors, then the Philips MANT940 is a better try, mount it sideways. It gives you something on VHF Hi and could work with your strongish signals, especially if you mount it outdoors facing the towers and find a sweet spot with your flexible mounting options.


It really depends on what you are willing, able, and prefering to do.


----------



## JChin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16710261
> 
> 
> J Chin, sorry I missed your post.
> 
> 
> The Monoprice antenna would probably be pretty good, but you may not get CBS channel 11 and ABC channel 8.
> 
> 
> If you had your heart set on that small antenna so you can mount outdoors, then the Philips MANT940 is a better try, mount it sideways. It gives you something on VHF Hi and could work with your strongish signals, especially if you mount it outdoors facing the towers and find a sweet spot with your flexible mounting options.
> 
> 
> It really depends on what you are willing, able, and prefering to do.



Thanks for the respond EV, so neither really picks up VHF? Is there another model thats compact and will receive both UHF & VHF? And can you explain VHF Hi, I don't understand?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16708776
> 
> 
> Holl_ands and IDRick.
> 
> 
> I checked measurements on the RCA ANT751 against IDRicks measurements of the EZ HD, they are exactly the same.



Does ANT751 also use a standard 300:75-ohm Balun???


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Its not marked, but it looks like a standard outdoor 300:75 ohm matching transformer.


----------



## Lord_Zath

Stupid question, but can the RCA ANT be mounted upside down?


Also, I was thinking of getting a CM-7777 but I don't have an outlet in the attic that it could plug into. I did find adapters that can add an outlet to a light socket - are these trustworthy? I'm not much of an electrician, so I don't know how well I could create an outlet on my own...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Informative knowledgable article.



> Quote:
> Solving VHF DTV Reception Problems
> 
> 
> by Doug Lung, 04.23.2009
> 
> 
> TV Technology Magazine
> 
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/79862


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/16713155
> 
> 
> Stupid question, but can the RCA ANT be mounted upside down?
> 
> 
> Also, I was thinking of getting a CM-7777 but I don't have an outlet in the attic that it could plug into. I did find adapters that can add an outlet to a light socket - are these trustworthy? I'm not much of an electrician, so I don't know how well I could create an outlet on my own...




1) Yes, but you have to turn the TV upside down in addition to the antenna or else you have to stand on your head to watch it.


2) Pre-amps can usually be powered remotely. The power inserter can usually be plugged in behind the TV set. It will place a nominal DC voltage, typically around 12 volts, on the coax which is fed to the amplifier module. There is no need, however, to turn the pre-amp or the power inserter upside down to match the antenna or TV set.


----------



## Lord_Zath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16713930
> 
> 
> 1) Yes, but you have to turn the TV upside down in addition to the antenna or else you have to stand on your head to watch it.
> 
> 
> 2) Pre-amps can usually be powered remotely. The power inserter can usually be plugged in behind the TV set. It will place a nominal DC voltage, typically around 12 volts, on the coax which is fed to the amplifier module. There is no need, however, to turn the pre-amp or the power inserter upside down to match the antenna or TV set.



I'm running a couple of splitters after the amp, which are in the attic as well. So I can't really have the power inserter connected to the TV - it'd only amplify the one TV's signal...


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/16714037
> 
> 
> I'm running a couple of splitters after the amp, which are in the attic as well. So I can't really have the power inserter connected to the TV - it'd only amplify the one TV's signal...



Use DC PASS splitters..... This ain't rocket science.


----------



## Lord_Zath

?


So that I get this straight:


Power unit (spare bedroom) -> wall jack -> power pass splitter -> preamp


That's how I get power I know. But then where do I hook up the output from the power unit? I'm not about to run a length of coax back up to the attic - it'd be far easier to place the power unit in the attic and have it directly connected to my splitters for output and the amp for power. That would mean I need to make an outlet for it - either using an adapter for the lightbulb socket or otherwise...


----------



## NTNgod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/16714413
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> So that I get this straight:
> 
> 
> Power unit -> wall jack -> power pass splitter -> preamp
> 
> 
> That's how I get power I know. But then where do I hook up the output from the power unit? I'm not about to run a length of coax back up to the attic...



If it's a leftover cable amp, you probably don't have a power injector for it. It would usually resemble a splitter in appearance.


A coax coming from the antenna would be plugged into it, a coax going to the TV would be plugged into it, and the wall-wart/power unit would plug into it (usually by coax).


----------



## Lord_Zath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NTNgod* /forum/post/16714486
> 
> 
> If it's a leftover cable amp, you probably don't have a power injector for it. It would usually resemble a splitter in appearance.



Nope it was an AC adapter w/a coax jack on it. It's connected to my 2nd jack in the master bedroom, which is connected directly to the amp portion in the attic. So there's no problems w/the current setup (other than losing signal from it (or the RS budget antenna) dying.


My above posts are regarding using a CM-7777 instead of the leftover cable amp. The problem w/the 7777 is that I can't have the power unit in my master bedroom (since the CM-7777 outputs to the power unit, which then outputs to the splitters) unless I ran another coax up to the attic. OR I could put the power unit in the attic, but there's no outlet up there.


----------



## NTNgod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/16714508
> 
> 
> 
> My above posts are regarding using a CM-7777 instead of the leftover cable amp.



Then it's pretty straightforward.


ELECTRICAL OUTLET by TV -> CM-7777 "power brick" -> coax hooked into attic (it carries the signal one way and the power the other way) -> DC-passing splitter -> preamp


The power brick has a coax out that you can run to your TV.


----------



## dreater

I think Lord_Zath is missing the point.


The CM-7777's power injector does only one thing - it puts a DC voltage on the cable to provide power to the CM-7777.


The power injector goes where it's convenient - typically behind a TV, in the line going to the TV, and plugged into the wall.


The 7777 itself - the amplifier - goes near the antenna - as near as feasible, to minimize signal loss prior in cable prior to amplification.


The amplified signal from the 7777 goes from the amplifier into your distribution system - splitters and whatnot - and to ALL your TVs.


The power injector doesn't affect where the amplified signal goes. You just have to be sure that anything in the line between the power injector and the 7777 will "pass through" the DC voltage for the amp - thus power-pass splitters - so the amp gets power.


It doesn't matter that the power injector is in the line to a particular TV - the amplified signal from the 7777 will go to all the TVs, not just that one.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Clearly stated dreater. Kudos.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JChin* /forum/post/16711122
> 
> 
> Thanks for the respond EV, so neither really picks up VHF? Is there another model thats compact and will receive both UHF & VHF? And can you explain VHF Hi, I don't understand?




This explains VHF better than I ever could.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHF 



The portion of the VHF spectrum in the US alotted to television broadcast usage is split into Channel 2-6 and 7-13, with FM and lots of other stuff in between.


Long story short the higher the frequency the smaller the antenna you can use and still get very good performance. This is a very general statement of course.


Thus for UHF (even higher than VHF High) you can use even smaller antennas and get good performance.



The Philips isnt really a VHF antenna, but its been clocked at about -17db gain (on VHF High) compared to the reference 1/2 wave dipole (classic antenna 101). Which isnt great (Rabbit Ears are dipoles), but it does work with stronger VHF High signals for people needing or wanting compact antenna solutions.


Without rambling on about antenna theory too much, what I really need to know is what your situation is and what you are trying to do/achieve, how much leeway you have in doing so, and what your preferences are?


Rent apartment? Own home? Are you limited to indoor solutions or balconies? Attic mount a possibility? Rooftop? How many TVs do you want to hook up? Just one, is it located in a room facing the transmission towers? Are you a college student looking for some OTA solution that can be easily moved in the future? And that is before we get into what is your apt/house made of? Do you have windows or patios or balconies facing the general direction of the towers? Are you using CECBs like the Zenith DTT901 or do you have an LCD or Plasma with its own ATSC tuner, which models? Or are you wanting to hook something up to a computer? How many times do you want to split the signal? How much effort are you wanting to put into the install? Do you want to keep it simple? Or wire the whole house? What are you using now or have tried in teh past, and why arent you satisfied with it? That type of thing.


Tell me about your wants and needs and situtation and restrictions. And Ill tell you about your best options to the best of my ability.


If you just want an indoor antenna to hook up to one TV, then the Lava 463 is a good choice for you, it has Rabbit Ears for VHF......dont extend them all the way out.....about 15 to 18 inches on each ear is good.


----------



## JNinCA

Has anyone tried the Spectrum LP49? I was told it was excellent, 5dbi unamped. Better than the Silver Sensor.


EV, can you give any recommendations for the Godar line? The guy was on CBS Sunday Morning. They're american made, if any good.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Lava A 463*


Here alongside the Radio Shack 15-1880.











Shot of the backside inputs and outputs.










Lava A 643 retailers webpage 



The Lava 463 is a pretty good antenna. Im just gonna ramble on about it and see what pops up, as well as compare it to the RS 1880.


The Lava 463 is a bit smaller than the RS 1880. This may be the reason for its lagging on the lower UHF band. I didnt test it on VHF only UHF. Its double loops (or whatever they are properly referenced as) are a bit thinner and lighter weight than the RS 1880s.....ditto the reflector screen....although they arent easily bent. The build quality on the Lava 463 is a bit suspect....looking at the pic of the back you can see that the 12V DC in is bit out of whack. Also the On/Off antenna power dial has a cheap feel to it, it doesnt particularly snap to the on position, and it seemed as if it went past the full power position with no stop (the RS 1880 has both a snap to on and a full power hard mechanical stop)....I didnt continue cranking it too far. The indicator lights are a little different than the 1880s which has an on/off green light LED indicator. The Lava 463 has a red LED as a power on indicator which comes on when plugged in, and a green LED indicator that turns on when the dial is semi snapped into the on position but then it increases in brightness as the dial is moved to maximum power(which I estimated by feel and position on the dial). Enough of the lights as they are superfluous to what really counts.


One more thing, the double loops only spin 90 degrees, givign you straight up and down orientation to straight side by side orientation but only in one quadrant. The RS 1880 gives you about 320 degrees rotation, IIRC. Its good enough I guess, but Ive found with the 1880 that having the loops one over the other to be vastly superior to the side by side orientation, however I do like to be able to slightly rotate them left or right of center. The Lava 463 only allows left (counterclockwise) of center rotation.


Both of these antennas have short coax cables permanently attached...of 3 or 4 feet or so.


More on mechanics.....no altitude adjustment but the entire head turns about 150 degrees. The VHF dipoles are mounted to the back of the reflector, and they are fully articuable (as far as the unit itself isnt intering with them). The VHF dipoles arent of particularly good quality and are kind of cheapish.


The performance was admirable late last night when I was trying this latest round of antennas.


I used the Variable Attenuator, (knowing full well its dubious value as discussed earlier in this thread) just to get some feel for what was happening. It gives interesting results and clearly shows the primary importance of the elements themselves, and how the amplifier fits in and distorts the values read on the variable attenuator to digital cliff. But that is for another time. I want to focus on the RS 1880 and Lava 463 right now.


I roughly estimated the the linear place on the dial that breakups occured, and noted that for each local channel for each antenna. Both (all) antennas were placed on top of my lamp (a good sweet spot, poor lamp) and aimed in the general direction of the towers. Off axis channel 16 was noted off the backside, without turning the antennas towards 16 (unless otherwise noted). Vizio GV42LF tuner used. Amplifiers on full gain if amplicable. 6ft coax to Radio Shack Variable Antenuator to antenna coax if permanently attached or 6 coax to antenna.


Ch. Real Channel Angular Percentage of Dial from Min(0db) to Max(-20db) antenuation. (I know this is faulty)


Here is my TVfool at antenna location for reference...

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618a40556b3710 


2 RC 50 Max 100% no sign of breakup

4 RC 34 Not Recieved

5 RC 47 Max

7 RC 7 Not Tested

16 RC 16 50% Halfway on the dial between Min and Max breakups start

24 RC 24 50%

36 RC 36 Max


RS 1880


2 RC 50 Max

4 RC 34 Not Recieved

5 RC 47 Max

7 RC 7 Not Tested

16 RC 16 66%

24 RC 24 Max

36 RC 36 Max


Channel 4 was recieved by no indoor antenna tested yesterday at the sweet spot location....though the AntennaCraft G1483 and CM 7777 amplifier were bringing it in without breakups.


What can we gleen from these numbers? Well, clearly the amplifiers are really kicking the signal up. The RS 1880 seems to be superior on the lower part of the UHF band, probably due to its larger size elements and reflector. Note 16 was measured with both antennas pointing towards the main tower cluster, thus 16 is off the backside lobe. But the Lava 643 was right behind the 1880 in performance. The unamped Channel Master 4040 also did well, bringing in all stations except Channel 4 that none recieved, most at about 25 to 33 percent on the Variable Attenuator before break up started to occur, however it didnt pick up 16 off the backside lobe. Following that was the Antennas Direct DB2 and right behind that the AD C1C.


Channel Master 4040


2 RC 50 33%

4 RC 34 Not Recieved

5 RC 47 25%

7 RC 7 Not Tested

16 RC 16 Not Recieved off the backside

24 RC 24 33%

36 RC 36 50%



Antennas Direct DB2


2 RC 50 33%

4 RC 34 Not Recieved

5 RC 47 Not Recieved

7 RC 7 Not Tested

16 RC 16 Not Recieved off the backside

24 RC 24 33%

36 RC 36 33%



Antennas Direct ClearStream1 Convertible


2 RC 50 25%

4 RC 34 Not Recieved

5 RC 47 Not Recieved

7 RC 7 Not Tested

16 RC 16 Not Recieved off the backside

24 RC 24 25%

36 RC 36 50%



Its likely that with Amplification the AD DB2, AD C1C, and CM 4040 would have performed as well as or better than the RS 1880 and/or Lava 463. If you look below, the unremarkable looking Philips SDV2750 brought in more channels, but only at threshold. These 3 antennas obviously have better elements than the Philips. That is how the amp helps, but the antenna elements matter.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Channel Master 4040*




















This is a neat little antenna. It comes with an lightly shielded extra long coax cable attached. The whole unit ships in 2 pieces as seen in pics. You simply click the arm and elements peice into the base, and you are done. Very lightweight....though better constructino than the Silver Sensor. I dont know if this is a log periodic or just a classic yagi....but it works.


2 features I really liked were that the elements were adjustable in altitude and azimuth on the hinge to the arm. This allowed me in my little test to angle it up somewhat towards the top of the treeline(which may have helped it in the test). Furthermore the base is also adjustable in altitude, which allows for multiple mounting options (like on the wall).


Simple and effective.


(There is also a NavyStar clone that Ive seen that looks real similar, though sometimes they trick you with the size (like the Lava 463 compared to the 1880).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Philips SDV2750*


2 RC 50 Min. 0%

4 RC 34 Not Recieved

5 RC 47 Min. 0%

7 RC 7 Not Tested

16 RC 16 Min. 0%

24 RC 24 Min. 0%

36 RC 36 Min. 0%



This antenna outperformed my expectations. What is most interesting about this antenna is the seperate UHF and VHF amplifier gain settings. Pretty well made. Recommended. The switches on the side of the unit are for turning the LED on light dim or high, and turning the amplifier on/off. The switch on the back of the unit is for switching between the antenna and a 75 ohm coax video pass through.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*GE Quantum*


2 RC 50 No Reception

4 RC 34 No Reception

5 RC 47 No Reception

7 RC 7 Not Tested

16 RC 16 No Reception (off the backside)

24 RC 24 Min. 0%

36 RC 36 100%










*GE Optima*


No reception except


36 Real Channel 36 0%

*RCA ANT108*


No reception except


36 Real Channel 36 25%


----------



## JChin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16716027
> 
> 
> This explains VHF better than I ever could.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHF
> 
> 
> 
> The portion of the VHF spectrum in the US alotted to television broadcast usage is split into Channel 2-6 and 7-13, with FM and lots of other stuff in between.
> 
> 
> Long story short the higher the frequency the smaller the antenna you can use and still get very good performance. This is a very general statement of course.
> 
> 
> Thus for UHF (even higher than VHF High) you can use even smaller antennas and get good performance.
> 
> 
> 
> The Philips isnt really a VHF antenna, but its been clocked at about -17db gain (on VHF High) compared to the reference 1/2 wave dipole (classic antenna 101). Which isnt great (Rabbit Ears are dipoles), but it does work with stronger VHF High signals for people needing or wanting compact antenna solutions.
> 
> 
> Without rambling on about antenna theory too much, what I really need to know is what your situation is and what you are trying to do/achieve, how much leeway you have in doing so, and what your preferences are?
> 
> 
> Rent apartment? Own home? Are you limited to indoor solutions or balconies? Attic mount a possibility? Rooftop? How many TVs do you want to hook up? Just one, is it located in a room facing the transmission towers? Are you a college student looking for some OTA solution that can be easily moved in the future? And that is before we get into what is your apt/house made of? Do you have windows or patios or balconies facing the general direction of the towers? Are you using CECBs like the Zenith DTT901 or do you have an LCD or Plasma with its own ATSC tuner, which models? Or are you wanting to hook something up to a computer? How many times do you want to split the signal? How much effort are you wanting to put into the install? Do you want to keep it simple? Or wire the whole house? What are you using now or have tried in teh past, and why arent you satisfied with it? That type of thing.
> 
> 
> Tell me about your wants and needs and situtation and restrictions. And Ill tell you about your best options to the best of my ability.
> 
> 
> If you just want an indoor antenna to hook up to one TV, then the Lava 463 is a good choice for you, it has Rabbit Ears for VHF......dont extend them all the way out.....about 15 to 18 inches on each ear is good.



EV, thanks for the link.

- I have a Plasma TH-58pz800u with its own tuner (not facing towers).

- House is brick (own) and single story.

- Prefer indoor antenna, but I can mount it in the attic (no radiant barrier) and outside (but not on rooftop). I'm pretty handy also.

- No tall buildings or tree or power wires in the way (that I can see from my rooftop)

- Have sliding patio door windows facing direction of towers.

- Just got Uverse with no HD but planning on getting it.

- More interested in what I can get from my tuner.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Well, brick can be a problem.


If you want to try some indoor antennas. Then the top of the list for distance is a good place to start.


RS 1892 UFO

Terk HDTVa

Lava A 463


Try to use them in a window that faces the direction of the towers. Remember to move them around (even in the window) and look for sweet spots.


If you would like to step it up a notch then a pole or wood deck railing mount outside your patio doors or a place outside that gets you clear shot to the towers (like the side of the house outside a window). Clearing the brick....you can now step up the antenna to something like the



RCA ANT751

Channel Master 2016


Probably a Channel Master 7777 or the Winegard 269, low noise amplifiers to help with performance and overcome any cable run losses, especially if they get over 25ft or so.


Its tough to say which of those 2 antennas will serve you best. The RCA ANT751 will give you better VHF Hi performance for those 2 important stations on ABC 8 and CBS 11 and be rock solid on the green stations, the CM 2016 will get you deeper into the yellow on the UHF stations, but it might not be totally stable on that ABC 8 and CBS 11 in foul weather or bad radio-atmospheric days....though it might, too. You will have to try them and decide for yourself. If I had to pick one though, Id value that ABC 8 and CBS 11 highly enough to go with the RCA ANT751.


The next step up from there is the Winegard 7694 or the AntennaCraft HBU-22. Although they perform about the same....the Winegard is much better made, although the AntennaCraft is cheaper. Id prefer the Winegard. But I think you are very safe with the RCA ANT751 or CM 2016 (and amp).


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JNinCA* /forum/post/16716338
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried the Spectrum LP49? I was told it was excellent, 5dbi unamped. Better than the Silver Sensor.
> 
> 
> EV, can you give any recommendations for the Godar line? The guy was on CBS Sunday Morning. They're american made, if any good.




The Godar Model 1 is a slimline log periodic with articulating telescoping VHF dipoles. Its a nice design, good performer as most log periodic designs seem to be.


Id like to see that video. Ill see if I can find it.


All I found was this....its good to see Michael Godar get some media exposure for his products. He aslo has some good FM antennas he has developed. Nice chap.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5087351.shtml 



Thanks for the heads up. Spectrum is a South Korean company. 
*Spectrum LP410P*

PDF manual 


Looks like a log periodic in a plastic shroud (like the Philips PHDTV3) and unique mounting hardware. Probably pretty good on UHF like the other log periodics (Silver Sensor). Not Amplified. $59 on the net.













> Quote:
> Application: indoor
> 
> Frequency Band: 450~870MHz
> 
> UHF Channel: 14~68CH (DTV Channel)
> 
> Gain: 6dBi
> 
> SWR: below the 2.0
> 
> Impedance: 75 ohm
> 
> Coaxial Cable: RG59
> 
> Cable Length: 10 m
> 
> Connector: F type


*Spectrum LP49 DTV*











Circuit board log periodic. The gain number is probably more or less acurate. Probably pretty good performance like the CM 4040 I just tested. Bit pricy....$49 on the net.




> Quote:
> Application: indoor
> 
> Frequency Band: 450~870MHz
> 
> UHF Channel: 14~68CH (DTV Channel)
> 
> Gain: 5dBi
> 
> SWR: below the 2.0
> 
> Impedance: 75 ohm
> 
> Coaxial Cable: RG59
> 
> Cable Length: 3 m
> 
> Connector: F type





> Quote:
> Spectrum LP410 and LP49-DTV HDTV Antennas Review
> 
> 
> By: Michael Phrakaysone
> 
> 
> ModSynergy
> 
> http://www.modsynergy.com/review166.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity









[/IMG]




Oldies...











Ive been looking for one like the one on the extreme right. One like on top to the Left just sold on ebay.


----------



## holl_ands

A flash from the past. The (CD?) Fat Loop on the extreme right looks like the Spectrum Hemi-Beam:
http://www.gobizkorea.com/blog/en_ca...oup_code=34903


----------



## Lord_Zath

ok this was super helpful. So they designed the brick so it WOULDN'T require running an extra length of coax (or using a 2nd jack like I'm doing now). That makes more sense. Thanks for clearing it up!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dreater* /forum/post/16714783
> 
> 
> I think Lord_Zath is missing the point.
> 
> 
> The CM-7777's power injector does only one thing - it puts a DC voltage on the cable to provide power to the CM-7777.
> 
> 
> The power injector goes where it's convenient - typically behind a TV, in the line going to the TV, and plugged into the wall.
> 
> 
> The 7777 itself - the amplifier - goes near the antenna - as near as feasible, to minimize signal loss prior in cable prior to amplification.
> 
> 
> The amplified signal from the 7777 goes from the amplifier into your distribution system - splitters and whatnot - and to ALL your TVs.
> 
> 
> The power injector doesn't affect where the amplified signal goes. You just have to be sure that anything in the line between the power injector and the 7777 will "pass through" the DC voltage for the amp - thus power-pass splitters - so the amp gets power.
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter that the power injector is in the line to a particular TV - the amplified signal from the 7777 will go to all the TVs, not just that one.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Spectrum HemiBeam*












> Quote:
> Specification
> 
> - Antenna Type : : Indoor
> 
> - Channel : 14 ~ 69 (470 ~ 806 MHz)
> 
> - Gain : 4 dBi
> 
> - VSWR : less than 2.0
> 
> - Impedance : 75 ohm
> 
> - Antenna Weight : 73 g
> 
> - Dimension : 23*25*2cm


----------



## Frankie20

I have a question, if I get an indoor amplified antenna and hook it up to a 3-way splitter. Does the splitter still need to have a built-in amplifier? Or will the amplified antenna compensate for the signal loss.


----------



## holl_ands

An amplifier, whether built into antenna or external, will reduce the loss of anything AFTER the

Preamp by the amount of Gain in the Preamp. And in most cases ONLY ONE PREAMP is enough,

and more than one is likely to cause (overload) desensitization on weak stations....


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Depends on how powerful the amp is and how long your cable run is. But the short answer is yes, it will compensate for signal loss.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Miscellaneous Chinese manufacturered antennas


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Funke Digital TV FF3514 5/69


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I just wanted to say, that its likely that the Antennas Direct DB2 and C1C as well as the CM 4040 would have pulled in more stations with stronger to cliff performance if amplified.


Any questions or comments about the recent roundup?


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16703903
> 
> 
> Let us all know how it works for you.
> 
> 
> AD sold out yesterday of the initial air-freight shipment. Balance of order is due in 2-3 weeks.



Does not work at all for me. I am still getting 0 signal on 7, 9, 11 and 13. I am running the C5 into my VHF input of the 7777 (yes, the switch is on separate). I tried running the C5 directly into my TV and the same thing (0 for High VHF). I was actually getting about 50 signal on my UHF 36 (which is NBC 4) without the 7777 (C5 directly into the TV). With the C4 into the 7777, I get about 80 on channel 36.


----------



## JChin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16716788
> 
> 
> Well, brick can be a problem.
> 
> 
> If you want to try some indoor antennas. Then the top of the list for distance is a good place to start.
> 
> 
> RS 1892 UFO
> 
> Terk HDTVa
> 
> Lava A 463
> 
> 
> Try to use them in a window that faces the direction of the towers. Remember to move them around (even in the window) and look for sweet spots.
> 
> 
> If you would like to step it up a notch then a pole or wood deck railing mount outside your patio doors or a place outside that gets you clear shot to the towers (like the side of the house outside a window). Clearing the brick....you can now step up the antenna to something like the
> 
> 
> 
> RCA ANT751
> 
> Channel Master 2016
> 
> 
> Probably a Channel Master 7777 or the Winegard 269, low noise amplifiers to help with performance and overcome any cable run losses, especially if they get over 25ft or so.
> 
> 
> Its tough to say which of those 2 antennas will serve you best. The RCA ANT751 will give you better VHF Hi performance for those 2 important stations on ABC 8 and CBS 11 and be rock solid on the green stations, the CM 2016 will get you deeper into the yellow on the UHF stations, but it might not be totally stable on that ABC 8 and CBS 11 in foul weather or bad radio-atmospheric days....though it might, too. You will have to try them and decide for yourself. If I had to pick one though, Id value that ABC 8 and CBS 11 highly enough to go with the RCA ANT751.
> 
> 
> The next step up from there is the Winegard 7694 or the AntennaCraft HBU-22. Although they perform about the same....the Winegard is much better made, although the AntennaCraft is cheaper. Id prefer the Winegard. But I think you are very safe with the RCA ANT751 or CM 2016 (and amp).



Thank you EV for the recommendation and helpful information. It looks like the RCA ANT751 maybe my best route if the indoor doesn't work well. Once again thank you.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16721371
> 
> 
> Does not work at all for me. I am still getting 0 signal on 7, 9, 11 and 13. I am running the C5 into my VHF input of the 7777 (yes, the switch is on separate). I tried running the C5 directly into my TV and the same thing (0 for High VHF). I was actually getting about 50 signal on my UHF 36 (which is NBC 4) without the 7777 (C5 directly into the TV). With the C4 into the 7777, I get about 80 on channel 36.



Sounds like a defect... email or call them.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16721548
> 
> 
> Sounds like a defect... email or call them.




I can even get UHF digital channels with the C5 inside my apartment hooked directly up to my TV tuner without the 7777. That is weird. If this antenna is for 7-13, why do I get a good signal with the UHF band inside my apartment 57 miles away! Why did the Los Angeles stations move from UHF to High VHF?!?!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Why did the Los Angeles stations move from UHF to High VHF?!?! - rbarbier


That is the real question.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16721714
> 
> 
> I can even get UHF digital channels with the C5 inside my apartment hooked directly up to my TV tuner without the 7777. That is weird. If this antenna is for 7-13, why do I get a good signal with the UHF band inside my apartment 57 miles away!



Uh, did you perform the FCC-recommended "double re-scan"? Your problem with zero reception might be as simple as a receiver that won't reset itself with a simple re-scan.


That the antenna picks up UHF tells me it probably, in fact, is not defective. I noticed this UHF reception capability a while back when I played with the pre-production unit I tested. As it turns out, this antenna, which has a relatively narrow naturally-resonant bandwidth (around 100 MHz or so, I forget), also resonates at the multiples of its design frequency. It seems to have a fair amount of gain around 400 MHZ and again around 600 MHz. I'll have to see if I can see the directivity vs. frequency plots again.


Yeah, the question about high-VHF is a good one for which the poor viewer is left without a good answer.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16721839
> 
> 
> Uh, did you perform the FCC-recommended "double re-scan"? Your problem with zero reception might be as simple as a receiver that won't reset itself with a simple re-scan.
> 
> 
> That the antenna picks up UHF tells me it probably, in fact, is not defective. I noticed this UHF reception capability a while back when I played with the pre-production unit I tested. As it turns out, this antenna, which has a relatively narrow naturally-resonant bandwidth (around 100 MHz or so, I forget), also resonates at the multiples of its design frequency. It seems to have a fair amount of gain around 400 MHZ and again around 600 MHz. I'll have to see if I can see the directivity vs. frequency plots again.
> 
> 
> Yeah, the question about high-VHF is a good one for which the poor viewer is left without a good answer.



Ok. I re-scanned and this time it found channel 5 (which is analog and showing how to hook up the converter box). I have never did get this channel before. It also found channel 13 (digital) but the signal is just barely enough for a picture and it is full of blocks. I will try playing with the antenna and move it around.


----------



## Lord_Zath

Ev, I'm looking to pick up the CM-7777 now and upgrade my total system. Attached is my TVFool data. I really care about WBBM, WMAQ, and WGN. All the rest are gravy. My current setup (RS Budget + leftover cable amp) was good until recently when my area experienced 90+ degree heat and high humidity. I can only conclude that atmospheric conditions are cancelling out a lot of the signal that I get.


So would you be able to recommend a good set of antennas? I'm thinking of going with the RCA ANT for VHF HI (WBBM) and maybe a DB2 for UHF (WMAQ, WGN)? Thanks!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I dont know what RCA ANT means but if you are referencing the RCA ANT751, I think that would be a good small antenna choice for you. Are you limited to indoors, balconies, attic?


If you are working an attic, I might suggest you move up to a Winegard 7694.


If you find a good location with a sweetish spot for the RCA ANT751 with a CM 7777 amplifier then it will probably be pretty solid. Its the best smallish VHF Hi antenna going, bar none. (perhaps the AD C5 is right behind it). If from there you would like to juice the UHF (the RCA ANT751 is a little weak on the lower part of the UHF band).....then you could add in a DB2 on the UHF feed of the CM 7777 amplifier and get better performance on the lower UHF band especially....but I dont think you need it for most of the stuff at the 152 degree heading (if using the RCA ANT751 and CM 7777 amplifier in the attic).

*You would gain more, by going with an A/B switch and a second antenna pointed at 10 degrees, even if UHF only. than adding a DB2 or other UHF only antenna and pointing it in the same direction as the RCA ANT751.


Bottom line try the RCA ANT751 by itself with the CM 7777 first....if your UHF performance is satisfactory for you, no need to add a UHF only antenna like the DB2 or ClearStream2 and point it in the same direction.*










http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 




The RCA has about 5.6 dBi on Channel 14 and about 7dBi around 30 and about 8dBi at channel 50. The figures in the above chart are dBi.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Blast from the past!


Panasonic TR-005 from 1969!











Im thinking Forbidden Planet!



JVC Videosphere!


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16722156
> 
> 
> The RCA has about 5.8 dBi on Channel 14 and 7dBi around 30ish and 8dBi between channel 40 and 50. The figures in the above chart are dBi.



Hi EV,


Where did you find these estimates on gain for the RCA ANT751? Did Holl_ands report his modeling results and I missed it?


Thanks,


Rick


----------



## EscapeVelocity

No, Im still extrapolating from the Winegard 7000R figures given by Winegard.


The similarities are striking, the antenna boom is the same length, and the elements on the UHF section look identical....including the 2 mid sized VHF directors/UHF reflectors.


Oops, and I fouled them up from memory. Corrected on quoted post.

http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/hd7000r.pdf


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/16722542
> 
> 
> Hi EV,
> 
> Where did you find these estimates on gain for the RCA ANT751? Did Holl_ands report his modeling results and I missed it?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rick



Ya missed it (read this post and the preceeding):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16689545 

I worked on it all day yesterday and today, all 1351 wire statements....still not "done".


----------



## JNinCA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frankie20* /forum/post/16719769
> 
> 
> I have a question, if I get an indoor amplified antenna and hook it up to a 3-way splitter. Does the splitter still need to have a built-in amplifier? Or will the amplified antenna compensate for the signal loss.



By coincidence, I was at the PBS affiliate today, and a similar question came up. One of the guys went and pulled out a bunch of splitters, and each one of theirs had the amount of signal loss marked on the splitter: 3.5 db for a two way splitter, 5 db for the 3 way, 7.5 db for the 4 way.


There are splitters with built in amps, but the amp in your antenna is almost certainly already higher than the 5 db loss of the splitter.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16689380
> 
> 
> Has anyone seen any specs on either the EZ-HD or the RCA ANT751???
> 
> Websites I've checked omit these important little details....
> 
> 
> Despite several distractions, I'm still working on the NEC model.
> 
> From what I've seen so far, VHF RAW Gain for Ch7 is about 5.5 dB,
> 
> rising to 7.5 dB in mid-band and falling some across Ch12-13.
> 
> 
> Front-to-Back Ratio is 10+ dB on Ch7, rising to 15+ dB mid-band and
> 
> then falling off across Ch12-13 (due to falling forward RAW Gain).
> 
> 
> Based on difficulties with YA-1713 model, I expected SWR to be
> 
> difficult to model accurately....EZ-HD is no different....maybe it's
> 
> a 300-ohm antenna, but I'm seeing much less at VHF freqs....
> 
> [Still gotta add the stubs to run UHF curves...]
> 
> 
> People should pay close attention to how these "twins" perform on Ch12 & 13....
> 
> I hope it's because of a NEC modeling shortcoming.....like the YA-1713 model,
> 
> which has a very similar Log-Yagi VHF design....



.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16721839
> 
> 
> Uh, did you perform the FCC-recommended "double re-scan"? Your problem with zero reception might be as simple as a receiver that won't reset itself with a simple re-scan.
> 
> 
> That the antenna picks up UHF tells me it probably, in fact, is not defective. I noticed this UHF reception capability a while back when I played with the pre-production unit I tested. As it turns out, this antenna, which has a relatively narrow naturally-resonant bandwidth (around 100 MHz or so, I forget), also resonates at the multiples of its design frequency. It seems to have a fair amount of gain around 400 MHZ and again around 600 MHz. I'll have to see if I can see the directivity vs. frequency plots again.
> 
> 
> Yeah, the question about high-VHF is a good one for which the poor viewer is left without a good answer.



You know what is funny...I am getting San Diego Local Channels (Fox, NBC and PBS) which are over 70 miles away. I still have my antenna facing the Los Angeles towers (288 degrees). I did lower my UHF antenna about 4 feet. I didn't know the C4 would pick up the San Diego stations so far away and at a degrees of 155. I am getting better Fox San Diego (UHF with C4) then with Fox Los Angeles (High VHF with C5). I need ABC now and I will be all set.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618a23d52b0c16


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16722619
> 
> 
> Ya missed it (read this post and the preceeding):
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16689545
> 
> I worked on it all day yesterday and today, all 1351 wire statements....still not "done".



Okay, thanks! Wow, I didn't realize how difficult it is to model antennas... Look forward to seeing your final results! I agree with EV. UHF gain with EZHD/ANT751 will probably match the Winegard 7000r.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Indoor Television solutions for VHF Hi.


RCA ANT751

Terk TV 35 better than RCA on VHF Low

Channel Master 2016 better than RCA on VHF Low

Mclapp 4 bay BowTie 9.5" whiskers and 9" center to center spacing of bowties.

Terk HDTVo

Winegard Batwing Better than RCA on VHF Low

Winegard SquareShooter 1000 add amplifier


You can also add VHF Dipoles (Rabbit Ears) to UHF only antennas via a UVSJ seperator/combiner or a Channel Master 7777 amplifier.


Anything with Rabbit Ears (VHF dipoles). If you dont need VHF Low then shorten each telescoping element to 12" to 18".




Holl_ands, any info on the RCA ANT751's VHF Low performance?


----------



## JNinCA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16716867
> 
> 
> The Godar Model 1 is a slimline log periodic with articulating telescoping VHF dipoles. Its a nice design, good performer as most log periodic designs seem to be.
> 
> 
> Id like to see that video. Ill see if I can find it.
> 
> 
> All I found was this....its good to see Michael Godar get some media exposure for his products. He aslo has some good FM antennas he has developed. Nice chap.
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5087351.shtml
> 
> 
> Thanks for the heads up.
> 
> Spectrum is a South Korean company.
> 
> *Spectrum LP49 DTV*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Circuit board log periodic. The gain number is probably more or less acurate. Probably pretty good performance like the CM 4040 I just tested. Bit pricy....$49 on the net.



Thanks for the info on the Godar Model 1. Seems like it would need less space on the cabinet than the HDTVi. I assume the performance is similar.


Yeah, I recorded that CBS story on my DVR, but the page you found on CBS is a verbatim transcript of what I recorded.


I think the Spectrum looks like a better bet than the Silver Sensor, if for no more reason than it looks much less likely to tip over.


O.k., next question: what about the Terk TV5? it seems to have been displaced by the HDTVa, but the engineers at the station I went to today really had good things to say about the TV5's performance on VHF DTV. (and its price is right if it works.)


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im not a fan of the Terk TV-5. However others liked them. One fellow said they were good for old analog, which is VHF heavy. They are larger than many other antennas, and that length can help with VHF reception. I found them clunky, if well made, to use....and not particularly strong on UHF. Didnt really test it on VHF. I didnt care for it.


Furthermore, altitude and azimuth 360 degree adjustable telescoping VHF dipoles (aka Rabbit Ears) are probably superior to it on VHF.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16722763
> 
> 
> Holl_ands, any info on the RCA ANT751's VHF Low performance?



EV, prior to the transition, we had two very strong low vhf stations (ch 3 and 6). The EZ HD did not receive either station. NM were in excess of 50 dB.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for the info, ID Rick, yeah, I dont think its great on VHF Low, but certainly better than many of these antennas. Kindof like the Philips MANT940 mounted sideways really isnt a VHF Hi antenna, but its got something to work with.


The only difference I can see with the Winegard 7000R and the RCA besides the length of the 2 Active VHF elements, is a rear reflector element mounted on the bottom side of the boom.


----------



## JChin

This may have been answer already but excuse the noob question. Looking at these antennas the connection are coax. Is there an antenna that has HDMI connection? Do you loss pq using coax on a HDTV set? Or is there a adaptor or coax cable converter connector available? And if so will that give out a better pq?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

This signal goes into a a tuner in your Plasma TV, which decodes the transmission from the television stations into into an HD or SD DTV video images and sound for your Plasma. This tuner is connected to the 75ohm coax input on your TV.


Short answer, you dont need a "better HDMI connection."


----------



## Lord_Zath

Thanks! Yes, this is an attic setup.


If I were to just get the amp and the ANT751, would that mean I'll likely lose the channels at 10 degrees (pointing mine at 155)? The A/B switch is a nice idea, though it means I'd need to go into the attic often unless there's a wirelessly controlled model?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16722156
> 
> 
> I dont know what RCA ANT means but if you are referencing the RCA ANT751, I think that would be a good small antenna choice for you. Are you limited to indoors, balconies, attic?
> 
> 
> If you are working an attic, I might suggest you move up to a Winegard 7694.
> 
> 
> If you find a good location with a sweetish spot for the RCA ANT751 with a CM 7777 amplifier then it will probably be pretty solid. Its the best smallish VHF Hi antenna going, bar none. (perhaps the AD C5 is right behind it). If from there you would like to juice the UHF (the RCA ANT751 is a little weak on the lower part of the UHF band).....then you could add in a DB2 on the UHF feed of the CM 7777 amplifier and get better performance on the lower UHF band especially....but I dont think you need it for most of the stuff at the 152 degree heading (if using the RCA ANT751 and CM 7777 amplifier in the attic).
> 
> *You would gain more, by going with an A/B switch and a second antenna pointed at 10 degrees, even if UHF only. than adding a DB2 or other UHF only antenna and pointing it in the same direction as the RCA ANT751.
> 
> 
> Bottom line try the RCA ANT751 by itself with the CM 7777 first....if your UHF performance is satisfactory for you, no need to add a UHF only antenna like the DB2 or ClearStream2 and point it in the same direction.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The RCA has about 5.6 dBi on Channel 14 and about 7dBi around 30 and about 8dBi at channel 50. The figures in the above chart are dBi.


----------



## JChin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16724070
> 
> 
> This signal goes into a a tuner in your Plasma TV, which decodes the transmission from the television stations into into an HD or SD DTV video images and sound for your Plasma. This tuner is connected to the 75ohm coax input on your TV.
> 
> 
> Short answer, you dont need a "better HDMI connection."



Thanks EV for the explaination, so much to learn about antenna and tv tuner.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Lord_Zath, and mclapp 4 bay with 9.5" and 9" spacing without a reflector may be your best bet at covering both directions (almost opposite each other) at once. Or you could try the DIY Gray Hoverman again without a reflector screen, and research that for an optimized design. Both of these offer the possibility of covering all freqencies(with the CM 7777 amp of course) and are bi-directional.


An Old Channel Master American Made 4221 with the reflector removed would be good too. One more possibility is the Antennas Direct ClearStream1 Convertible without the reflector. These would both be bi-directional.


You could augment this with a DIY VHF Yagi (Hollands has the plans), or the RCA ANT751 to capture those VHF Hi at 152 degrees, using one of the above antennas on the UHF in on your CM 7777 and the RCA on the VHF in.


The How to build a UHF Antenna thread is the place to go. 300ohm, mclapp, and holl_ands all know more about the DIY antennas than me.


----------



## ylee

In January I wrote about receiving OTA in downtown San Francisco with a DB2 attached with suction cups to an apartment window . I am pleased to report that KGO, the ABC affiliate now (again) transmitting on channel 7, comes in quite well despite the DB2 not being designed for VHF signals.


----------



## Lord_Zath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16725963
> 
> 
> Lord_Zath, and mclapp 4 bay with 9.5" and 9" spacing without a reflector may be your best bet at covering both directions (almost opposite each other) at once. Or you could try the DIY Gray Hoverman again without a reflector screen, and research that for an optimized design. Both of these offer the possibility of covering all freqencies(with the CM 7777 amp of course) and are bi-directional.
> 
> 
> An Old Channel Master American Made 4221 with the reflector removed would be good too. One more possibility is the Antennas Direct ClearStream1 Convertible without the reflector. These would both be bi-directional.
> 
> 
> You could augment this with a DIY VHF Yagi (Hollands has the plans), or the RCA ANT751 to capture those VHF Hi at 152 degrees, using one of the above antennas on the UHF in on your CM 7777 and the RCA on the VHF in.
> 
> 
> The How to build a UHF Antenna thread is the place to go. 300ohm, mclapp, and holl_ands all know more about the DIY antennas than me.




Thanks I'll check it out!


----------



## RobCt

I decided to try it out and bought the ANT751 today. I bought a piece of 10' conduit to temp. mount it on my RV. Total height is about 20'. I compass aligned it toward Hartford, since that is the stations I want.


Wvit is not viewable. Wfsb is in the 40's signal strength most of the time but drops out at times. Wtic is in the 60's. Wtnh is not viewable.


I updated my Tvfool after using the hybrid map because using my address put me at a higher location than I am actually at.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618acd3e74292b 


Now I am wondering what my best next step is. Better UHF antenna, preamp, higher mast?


It's funny, I kind of feel like I'm going back in time to try to learn all these things now. I kind of like it I think










Any advice would be much appreciated.


By the way EV, I caught your posts on the other thread. I too have lost my hearing in one ear almost totally. The other one isn't very good, and I'm an old audiophile.


----------



## RobCt

I should also add that I bought a DTV converter box just to see if decent reception is feasible in my RV here. I plan on buying a new TV if it is, but didn't want to waste my money if I will need an antenna setup that is not practical for an RV. I am semi permanent in this location, and my RV (thanks to the economy).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Rob, you should take you RCA ANT751 down, and leave it connected and try to find sweet spots. Rbarier just moved his C4 or C5 from AD down lower on his mast and found a sweet spot which is raking in the stations from San Diego as well as LA.


Sweet spots trump height. The RCA ANT751 was always going to need amp help at your previous TVfool results. You will probably need to move up to a bigger antenna(and still need an amplifier). However you can use the RCA ANT751 to find a sweet spot lower on the temp mast you have or elsewhere.


Sweet spots are key.


To stay compact but move up in gain, you might want to try an UHF only antenna.....which offers more gain while maintaining some semblance of compactness.


My recommendation, is the Antennas Direct C4, its more compact than the 8 bay bowties, and gives similar performance. I still recommend an amplifier with it, but you can try it without one first. You probably will lose Ch. 9 PBS and Ch. 11 NBC, but there is another PBS and NBC down the list you can probably get.


A little more compact while not losing much to the C4, are the Winegard HD4400 and the Channel Master 4221, but I only recommend the old American Made CM4221...unfortunately they changed to chinese imports of a new design with similar nomenclature this year (CM 4221HD), they closed down their American antenna manufacturing operations last year.


You should be pointing you antenna North-North West. Right?


C4 info at bottom of page from HDTVprimer

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 


Info on the CM 4221 and Winegard HD4400 (as well as other antennas) here...

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Or you could try the DIY Gray Hoverman again without a reflector screen, and research that for an optimized design.



Yeah, the SBGH, no reflector with a 30.25 inch NAROD should do the job nicely, along with getting channels 7 and 12.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Now I am wondering what my best next step is. Better UHF antenna, preamp, higher mast?



Negative noise margin, 2 edge, stations are going to be near impossible to get consistantly no matter the antenna or preamp. Try playing with TVFool to see how high you would have to go to get to at least 1 edge.


----------



## RobCt

Hi EV,


I didn't get the chance to play with location yet because we got bad storms right after I mounted it. I will try it tomorrow. I was looking at the C4 myself, but was in a Walmart that had the ANT751 today so I figured I would give it a shot.


I've been reading some conflicting reviews on the C4. Most seem good though. An 8 bay does seem a little big for me though. What about that super Hoverman ( I forgot the model #)?


Also do you have any ideas on a amp that will run on 12v? I saw the antenna direct one, P-18 I think.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Lord_Zath, quiz 300ohm on the reflectorless Gray Hoverman, that is your best option, good gain, wide bandwidth, and wide beamwidth, and bi directional. Id still get the CM 7777 though.



Rob I edited my response to you. Check it out. You too could build a version of the Gray Hoverman or the mclapp 4 bay. Very good antennas and cheap to make.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I have a P-18 that AD sent me to test, though I havent really looked at it yet. Ill get back to you on the power requirements, tommorrow.


----------



## RobCt

I know, bad spot I'm in. I am watching Wfsb now with a 41 signal. Wtic has been good all night so far in the 60's. I figure if I can get a little better I will be happy. If I could put up a tower I would be good, but that might look funny on my RV


----------



## RobCt

Thanks EV. It says it runs on 12v.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=AD-P18 


I wonder on the performance though.


----------



## RobCt

Come on guys, don't get me going on building my own antenna. I have been trying NOT to read all the threads I found on that out there. I really would love to but I seem to have far too little time on my hands these days.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Anything that you can tune and get a picture even with breakups or instability can be amped to stability. If the RCA ANT751 is giving you something on a couple of channels on UHF, that bodes well for a 4 bay bowtie or Gray Hoverman working well for you. They are a little taller than the C4 but not as wide. That may be what you should focus on.


Im partial to the Gray Hovermans, but the Mclapp is good too. And if you dont feel like tinkering, the CM4221 (remember look for the old American made style), or the Winegard HD4400 should work well for you too at that location. Dont forget the sweet spot and amp. The American Made CM4221 is built stout and is heavier than the Winegard HD4400 which is well built too, but of lighter aluminum.


Here are pics.

*AntennaCraft Gray Hoverman G1483, Winegard HD 4400, and CM 4221 American Made*









*Winegard HD4400, RCA ANT751, Channel Master 4221 American Made*











You dont have to read much, 300ohm and mclapp are generous with help, just ask in the How to build a UHF Antenna thread. But some effort and tools and skill required to build your own. That AntennaCraft G1483 is what Im using now.


----------



## RobCt

What about the Super G1483?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Those Gray Hovermans and Bowtie antennas balance nicely with a center of gravity near the pole and put less stress on the mast. If that matters, though I wouldnt be driving with one still mounted. LOL!


The RCA ANT751 cantilevers with a center of gravity farther out from the pole, requiring a more sturdy mount.


----------



## RobCt

LOL, I don't plan on driving around with it. I couldn't afford the gas







.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RobCt* /forum/post/16728653
> 
> 
> What about the Super G1483?



Could be a solution for you. All these antennas were designed with a wider UHF band in mind the 14-69 band. The mclapp and Gray Hoverman DIY have been optimized for the new band 14-51 with a mind towards some gain on VHF High as well.


That being said, the G1483 is better on VHF High than the others (except for the RCA ANT751 which blows them all away on VHF High). Its main fault is its build quality....pretty shabby.


You can also get a Double G1483.


Summit Source is the only place I know that still has them discontinued old stock.

4 bay G1483 

Double Stacked G1483


----------



## RobCt

I ran across this,

http://www.wtfda.org/images/stories/pdf/hoverman.pdf 


I wish the price was still the same.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah, Radio Shack used to sell a Hoverman back in the 60s and 70s. The Gray Hoverman is a much improved design though, the elongated elements on top and bottom are the key.


----------



## RobCt

"The mclapp and Gray Hoverman DIY have been optimized for the new band 14-51 with a mind towards some gain on VHF High as well".


You guys are just going to make me build an antenna huh?


I probably would end up doing that anyways with how hard it is to find a quality product these days.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The price is pretty good on that AntennaCraft Single Gray Hoverman G1483. Maybe that is you. You can get a similar price on the Winegard 4400, and its much better built, (and American Made).


----------



## RobCt

I always prefer American made. That was a big reason I bought the ANT751.


I'm thinking try a preamp, which I can use anyways, and then if I need to upgrade the antenna. I can use an 8 bay since it doesn,t look like my RV will be moving for a while and I can take it down, as I would with any antenna to move if I do.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Winegard 269 is a highly regarded amp and its lower power may indicate a 12v power supply. You might check it out, too.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

If you are getting CBS at 60 with the RCA ANT751, without looking for a sweet spot. Id say you can get by with a 4 bay (and amp) in a sweet spot, easy peasy. Just a foot here and there (up, down, left, right, front, back) can make a huge difference. If you find a good sweet spot you might not need an amp with a 4 bay. Those 8 bays are huge.


Anyways, Good Luck.


There is always mclapp and 300ohm Bowties and Gray Hovermans!


----------



## RobCt

Thanks EV, I'll check it out. I need to get some sleep now. I'll talk to you later.


PS, check this one out. I think the remote control flies it around for the best signal









http://walito.com/products-big.asp?id=283 


Have a good night.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Update on the bedroom.


I am now using a vintage Channel Master double bowtie similar to the 4149 and Radio Shack version with a Motorola BDA-S1 amplifier and getting superior results to the RS 1880 at that location.


----------



## Lord_Zath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16728558
> 
> 
> Lord_Zath, quiz 300ohm on the reflectorless Gray Hoverman, that is your best option, good gain, wide bandwidth, and wide beamwidth, and bi directional. Id still get the CM 7777 though.
> 
> 
> 
> Rob I edited my response to you. Check it out. You too could build a version of the Gray Hoverman or the mclapp 4 bay. Very good antennas and cheap to make.



Great thanks for the info. I figured I'd get the 7777 regardless and see what happens.










What do you mean "quiz 300ohm on the reflectorless Gray Hoverman"? Is that a DIY antenna?


----------



## haydeecm

I had been following an ebay auction for the Radio Shack 1880 a couple of days ago. It ended up going for $101 + shipping ( here ). Are they really worth that much, or is this some nostalgia/overhyped thing? Why wouldn't radio shack take a cue and start selling them again if they are fetching so much?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16728985
> 
> 
> Update on the bedroom.
> 
> 
> I am now using a vintage Channel Master double bowtie similar to the 4149 and Radio Shack version with a Motorola BDA-S1 amplifier and getting superior results to the RS 1880 at that location.



Read that first line and thought ... WRONG FORUM!



Anyway, have you tried the C1C with PA18 in there yet?


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *haydeecm* /forum/post/16730450
> 
> 
> I had been following an ebay auction for the Radio Shack 1880 a couple of days ago. It ended up going for $101 + shipping ( here ). Are they really worth that much, or is this some nostalgia/overhyped thing? Why wouldn't radio shack take a cue and start selling them again if they are fetching so much?



I would say that it isnt overhyped, its a good antenna. Whether its worth $100 is debateable. That is certainly a personal valuation and subjective.


Some people just look at the top of the list and the history (it was one of the top three for so long and was widely discussed ont the net) and laser in on that one to search out and buy.


Good alternatives are the Terk HDTVa and the RS 1892 UFO among others. If you look, I just moved from an RS 1880 in the bedroom to a Channel Master 4149/RS Double Bowtie with a high quality off board amp and am getting superior results. A DB2 and an amp will beat it as well.


So its not magic, but it is good.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16730612
> 
> 
> Read that first line and thought ... WRONG FORUM!
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, have you tried the C1C with PA18 in there yet?




Not the PA18, but Ive been trying out the C1C. I have a pretty favorable opinon of it. Still assessing.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16731115
> 
> 
> If you look, I just moved from an RS 1880 in the bedroom to a Channel Master 4149/RS Double Bowtie with a high quality off board amp and am getting superior results. A DB2 and an amp will beat it as well.



how does the double bowtie compares with the RS 1880 on the Hi-VHF band. i'm guessing that you are only using it for UHF.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I have one VHF High station, PBS on ch. 7 WITV, but I also have a PBS on UHF ch. 16 from another direction.


I havent been too concerned about getting 7.


I like a bunch of other folks, have determined that VHF High for DTV was a mistake.


----------



## RobCt

Maybe I should be over on the other thread since I'm not really talking about indoor antennas now, but I figured an RV needs a compact antennas such as would be used in an attic. They seem to be into towers and setups beyond what is practical for me over there though. Maybe there should be an RV thread with all the people now living in their RV's out there now.


Anyways I will post this here since I have already received some good help here . I think I may have a problem soon. I was playing with Tvfool and the hybrid map today and found that the camp site I will be moving my RV to in a few days has a fairly big signal difference even though it is only a couple hundred feet away from where I am temporarily parked now. It looks like I will need 100' elevation to get the signal I am now. It seems even a small difference in location makes a big difference in signal where I am. Here are the two exact locations.


Currently,

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618a1fc1275993 


New site,

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618a2f4623d2f8 


So far I am getting wfsb, wtic, wedn, whpx, and now wvit with a little re-aligning of the ANT751. I haven't had the chance to look for a sweet spot here yet, and I'm sure I will need to look for one in my new spot soon.


I was about to order a HD4400 and a PA18. Now I wonder if that will be enough in the new location.


What I get now is OK with me. ABC would be nice, but that is even farther away in New Haven.


It looks like I will be living in my RV in that spot until the economy improves, and God only knows when that will be. My plan is for an entire 12V setup running off solar/battery power.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The difference isnt big between those 2 TVfools, and could be entirely explained by the fact that one is 20ft height of antenna, and the other is 10 ft declared height of antenna.


ABC is off axis a bit from the other stations. Along with NBC 11 and PBS 22. A little spin of the antenna might help.


If the RCA ANT751 is doing that well at least during good weather, then that bodes very well for the extra 3-4db of gain that the 4 bays will offer. (3db equals a doubling of gain) Sweet spots can easily provide 3db of gain boosts or more.


A UHF only 4 bay will probably serve you well, and you can add in an amp if you find over time that you need a bit more stabilization/reliability.



BTW, do you see what anybody else is using there?


----------



## haydeecm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16731501
> 
> 
> I have one VHF High station, PBS on ch. 7 WITV, but I also have a PBS on UHF ch. 16 from another direction.
> 
> 
> I havent been too concerned about getting 7.
> 
> 
> I like a bunch of other folks, have determined that VHF High for DTV was a mistake.



So for those of us unfortunate enough to have 3 major VHF channels (Fox, CW and PBS) you think the best bet would be the RS1880 and UFO over the DB2 and the channelmaster. I think the UFO was adequate but wanted a little bit more since Fox moved to vhF after transition its been hovering in the 60's, so I wanted to try something else. I have tried the MANT940 too, but UFO was a bit better, just want to try something else even a bit better.


----------



## RobCt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16733208
> 
> 
> The difference isnt big between those 2 TVfools, and could be entirely explained by the fact that one is 20ft height of antenna, and the other is 10 ft declared height of antenna.
> 
> 
> ABC is off axis a bit from the other stations. Along with NBC 11 and PBS 22. A little spin of the antenna might help.
> 
> 
> If the RCA ANT751 is doing that well at least during good weather, then that bodes very well for the extra 3-4db of gain that the 4 bays will offer. (3db equals a doubling of gain) Sweet spots can easily provide 3db of gain boosts or more.
> 
> 
> A UHF only 4 bay will probably serve you well, and you can add in an amp if you find over time that you need a bit more stabilization/reliability.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, do you see what anybody else is using there?



The new location appears to be about 25 feet (maybe more) lower than where I am now. It is right by the river and surrounded by big trees. Where I am now is a couple hundred feet from the nearest tall trees in the direction of the stations I need. If you put in these coordinates into the Tvfool map and click on hybrid and lines pointing to transmitters you will see right where I will be (I'm not worried about giving out the exact location) 41.602415,-72.154255 . Those farm buildings to the west on the signal path look pretty far uphill from where I will be.


I have been looking and have not seen even one antenna on a house around here. Just satellite dishes. There is actually only one other house in this valley. It's funny because they call this "technology valley" because in the 1800's there was some hi-tech factories (for the time) here. There was even a train station. Now it's all just trees and some foundation remnants.


I think I will wait till I move and see what the ANT751 gets there, then decide on what to do. I have decided on the HDP-269 pre-amp (it does run on 12V) over the PA-18.


Thank you for all of your good advice folks.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *haydeecm* /forum/post/16733596
> 
> 
> So for those of us unfortunate enough to have 3 major VHF channels (Fox, CW and PBS) you think the best bet would be the RS1880 and UFO over the DB2 and the channelmaster. I think the UFO was adequate but wanted a little bit more since Fox moved to vhF after transition its been hovering in the 60's, so I wanted to try something else. I have tried the MANT940 too, but UFO was a bit better, just want to try something else even a bit better.



The problem with VHF is that it requires larger antennas for similar gains. Thus the UFO as an example has about a 6db gain UHF log periodic antenna in its disc, along with a 0db gain adjustable VHF dipole.


Basically, indoor antennas have VHF dipoles and that is about as good as you will get. The next step up in a smallish antenna is the RCA ANT751 on VHF High (5ish db), though the old Rabbit Ears are probably better on VHF Low when fully extended.


The MANT940 really isnt a VHF antenna, but it does give something to work with for people with strong VHF High stations (-17db gain compared to a reference 1/2 wave dipole (Rabbit Ears).


I havent really tested these antennas on VHF at all, so I dont have much real world hands on experience to add to that.


If you want better VHF performance, you are going to have to get a bigger antenna or find a sweeter spot(outside, roof, attic, balcony, out from behind the neighbors house, etc). Its as simple as that.


----------



## Cbl12886

What is a good budget pre-amplifier. The Channel Master 7777 is too expensive for me. I am looking to use it with the Channel Master CM2016. I want to try to get the antenna, mast, mount, amplifier, and cable for around $100-150.


Thanks!


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cbl12886* /forum/post/16736484
> 
> 
> What is a good budget pre-amplifier. The Channel Master 7777 is too expensive for me. I am looking to use it with the Channel Master CM2016. I want to try to get the antenna, mast, mount, amplifier, and cable for around $100-150.



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=9701 
http://www.highdefforum.com/local-hd...revisited.html


----------



## Cbl12886

How does this look.


Winegard HDP 269 Pre-Amplifier - $31.89

Winegard DS-2016 Universal J-Mount - $12.89

Winegard HD-1080 2-Bay Bowtie UHF/VHF Antenna - $24.89

Total - $86.62


Am I missing anything for the complete installation besides the RG6 cable?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I thought you were going with a CM 2016, which is a much better antenna than the HD 1080.


Five (Antennas) To Get Ready


PETER PUTMAN, CTS

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/Five_Antennas.html


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cbl12886* /forum/post/16736484
> 
> 
> What is a good budget pre-amplifier. The Channel Master 7777 is too expensive for me. I am looking to use it with the Channel Master CM2016. I want to try to get the antenna, mast, mount, amplifier, and cable for around $100-150.
> 
> 
> Thanks!



And here's a list of alternatives to HDP269 in case you're in rural area and "need" more gain:
http://www.summitsource.com/advanced...page=1&sort=3a 

Suggest you use www.pricegrabber.com and/or www.google.com/products to find best price.


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *partsman_ba* /forum/post/16012190
> 
> 
> And now, on to my question. I have a Phillips MANT300 amplified ears/loop (bought before I knew anything about how bad amplifiers are in indoor antennas) with the amplifier off. I run the signal through an old splitter to my HDTV and a DTVPal front-ending a VCR. All of my stations are


----------



## RobCt

I see some talk about "amps" here, and that is just what I have been looking into in my (little) spare time .


EV recommended the HDP-269 because of it's low voltage power supply (thanks EV). I like Winegard because they are still American made and still employ American workers in our bad economy, so they will get my business.


My question is if in my location a higher gain pre-amp would be better, and I see holl_ands has brought that up (thank you) .Winegard shows the HDP-269 as power by 12V,

http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload...20_HDP-269.pdf 


But the manual is the same as the AP series pre-amps and shows a power supply that connects by coax to the power injector. I can't find if all their pre-amps run on 12V. If they do I can get a 12V power injector that will allow me to hook directly to 12V and use any of them.

http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/2451964.pdf 


I was thinking the AP-4800 may be better for me with the high UHF gain, and I don't really have a need for VHF, and the extra price of the AP-8275.


----------



## RobCt

Thinking a little more about it I thought about the built in power supply for my RS-2000 on my RV. I'm thinking it will run all the Winegard pre-amps?

http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/2451806.pdf


----------



## RobCt

I did a little research about what happened to Channel Master, a name I grew up with. I see all their websites are down now.


The original Channel Master is gone, it's just a name owned by China now. Here is who the are now.

http://www.pctinternational.com/ 

http://www.tradekey.com/profile_view...ernational.htm 


Even if they do still have some decent products I will give my business to an American company.


----------



## RobCt

They do not "seem" to be owned by China, but they do seem to be owned by someone that wants to be like........ Walmart........

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n25398740/


----------



## EscapeVelocity

True, but that is really depressing.


----------



## EscapeVelocity











*Super Delhi Antenna*










*Super Delhi Too Antenna*










*Delhi 4BT-1483 Antenna*










*Delhi SL 4BT Antenna*

http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/UHF.htm


----------



## RobCt

Hi EV, I couldn't help it. Watching all our old companies disappear really kills me. I was in the business when it happened with Japan, but that seemed no where near as bad then as it is now..


I guess I will end up building my own super antenna when I have the time.


Maybe with all the talent we have here there could be a way to start a new antenna company that makes American made antennas for the free DTV available for all the people that can't afford cable anymore because of the steadily worsening economy?


Something to think about!


----------



## RobCt

Have you found a source to buy those wade antennas? I haven't yet. I like the looks of that Canadian company. They seem to be dropping much of there residential line though to focus on commercial apps.


----------



## RobCt

I need to get some sleep, but I just want to say that I ended up here because I was looking for info on antennas. That was never one of my fields. I found some extremely knowledgeable, and helpful people here.


Electronics in one form or another was my life for a long time. From tech school to management positions.


Most of my time online recently was spent on fighting for legislation to be passed, or not to be passed by our government because of how bad our economy is, and how many people are being affected by it.


Maybe I'm having a pipe dream, but it seems to me that there are many, many people out there that do not want to, or can not afford cable TV now. No retail stores that I have found, including Best Buy, and Radio Shack, even have antennas in stock besides the "rabbit ears" variations. It took a lot of online research for me to even find out how to get the free DTV reliably, and I have been using OTA TV for awhile now.


I have a lot of experience in sales, and this really seems to be an overlooked market to me. Many people are hurting for money now, and if they knew they could get digital TV for free instead of paying that cable bill they have been used to paying for countless years.........hmmmm.


A new improved antenna design (that really works). Made in the USA. Employing American workers. Free HD quality TV. No cable/Satellite bill.


Do any other of you old AV guys out there see an opportunity?


----------



## Cbl12886




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16737556
> 
> 
> I thought you were going with a CM 2016, which is a much better antenna than the HD 1080.
> 
> 
> Five (Antennas) To Get Ready
> 
> 
> PETER PUTMAN, CTS
> 
> http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/Five_Antennas.html



I decided to go with the Winegard because it was a lot cheaper and I read somewhere on the forum that it was really good for the price. I just noticed though that Solid Signal just lowered their price on the CM 2016. Am I missing anything now for the complete setup not including the cable??



Winegard HDP 269 Pre-Amplifier - $31.89

Channel Master CM3009 Universal Mount - $16.99

Channel Master CM2016 HDTV UHF/VHF Antenna - $34.99

Total W/ Shipping - $103.82


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Rob, competing with the Chinese in a startup antenna company manufacturing antennas sounds like a daunting task. Seeing as how a lengendary American icon in the business like Channel Master just gave up the ghost (as others have over the years). Winegard is feeling the crunch too, no doubt.


I wouldnt relish the prospects of success.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Cbl, how about grounding the antenna?


That looks like a great combo, antenna/amp.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cbl12886* /forum/post/16743772
> 
> 
> 
> Winegard HDP 269 Pre-Amplifier - $31.89
> 
> Channel Master CM2016 HDTV UHF/VHF Antenna - $34.99



i ordered both yesterday. gonna used them indoors, though.


----------



## wavest

I recently made the youtube antenna and have had some perplexing results and am looking for some insight. I can receive 5 locals which have towers located 9 miles from my location. I have also gotten 4 out of town stations with tower distances of 73 to 80 miles away on ideal days for short periods of time. I am wondering if there is a way to get a more consistent signal [pre-amp, better antenna], I was thinking about trying the UFO. Also, I wonder how I received these stations and not others that are closer to or the same distance from my location according to tvfool [I have my antenna outside and have moved it 360 degrees]. Thanks for the help!


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wavest* /forum/post/16744759
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wonder how I received these stations and not others that are closer to or the same distance from my location according to tvfool


 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post16740225 



> Quote:
> I have my antenna outside and have moved it 360 degrees.



which antenna (or type of antenna) do you have outside? the UFO will likely make matters worse.


----------



## wavest

which antenna (or type of antenna) do you have outside? the UFO will likely make matters worse.[/quote]


this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQhlmJTMzw you don't recommend the UFO? Thanks.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I recommend an mclapp improved design "youtube" with a reflector, or better yet the DIY Gray Hoverman.


However, you arent likely to get reliable reception on the channels at 73 miles without serious commitments, (like a tower install). You are getting atmospheric help, that isnt stable.


----------



## Cbl12886




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16743886
> 
> 
> Cbl, how about grounding the antenna?
> 
> 
> That looks like a great combo, antenna/amp.


 http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=GRROD4 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=GRB1 


Is that all I would need. Just put the rod in the ground where the cable comes into the house? I will defiantly need this since there is a lightning strike here in Florida every second.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16744165
> 
> 
> i ordered both yesterday. gonna used them indoors, though.



Let me know how well it functions. I won't be ordering mine for about a month because we are still going through renovations and have not moved into the house.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im no expert on that. But you also need some wire, like 8 gauge grounding wire, copper or aluminum.

Need to Ground an Attic Antenna? 


Also good information and a diagram fromt he HDTVprimer dude Ken Nist. Scroll down the page to the appropriate topic.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html


----------



## Cbl12886




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16746837
> 
> 
> Im no expert on that. But you also need some wire, like 8 gauge grounding wire, copper or aluminum.
> 
> Need to Ground an Attic Antenna?
> 
> 
> Also good information and a diagram fromt he HDTVprimer dude Ken Nist. Scroll down the page to the appropriate topic.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html



So I put the rod in the ground and then attach the grounding block and antenna to the rod with some 4-gauge aluminum wire. That seems pretty simple.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cbl12886* /forum/post/16747153
> 
> 
> So I put the rod in the ground and then attach the grounding block and antenna to the rod with some 4-gauge aluminum wire. That seems pretty simple.



It's more than just that.


See NEC Section 810 for minimum NFPA requirements.


----------



## Cbl12886




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16748438
> 
> 
> It's more than just that.
> 
> 
> See NEC Section 810 for minimum NFPA requirements.



The only difference I see from what I wrote was that I should use an 8-gauge copper wire coming off the grounding rod and that rod should be from the electrical panel. That is on the other side of my house so I think that the 4' grounding rod, grounding block, and some 8-gauge copper wire for the mast and coax should be fine.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cbl12886* /forum/post/16749188
> 
> 
> The only difference I see from what I wrote was that I should use an 8-gauge copper wire coming off the grounding rod and that rod should be from the electrical panel. That is on the other side of my house so I think that the 4' grounding rod, grounding block, and some 8-gauge copper wire for the mast and coax should be fine.



You skipped right over that part about bonding the two ground electrodes together.....which is one of the more important aspects of the system.


----------



## Cbl12886

Are you talking about having the coax ground cable and mast ground cable both being attached to the same grounding block and that block to one grounding rod in the ground?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

What does your TVfool indicate, Cbl? Could you post a link?


----------



## Cbl12886

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...663d6fcf3117b6 


Just so you know you already looked at this and recommended the RCA and CM.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

How long is your cable run? How many TVs are you going to split to?


Looks like you are in very good shape with CM2016 and a Winegard 269 amplifier.


----------



## Cbl12886

At most 50' for the cable and 1 TV only probably.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The much higher overload level capacity of the Winegard 269 will serve you well, with your strong signals.....you might try without the amp first.


The Winegard 269 is about 3 times more robust than others on the input overload side, according to Rick0725, a very knowlegable chap.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Delhi SL 4BT Antenna



First time Ive seen a commercial reflectorless bowtie offered.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is an oldish article by the HDTVexpert, it focuses on outdoor antennas, but I always love his stuff and lets face it, the best indoor antenna is an outdoor antenna. LOL!



> Quote:
> HEAVY METAL, PART I
> 
> 
> VHF-UHF Antennas Compared for Outdoor DTV Reception
> 
> 
> by Peter H. Putman, CTS
> 
> http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/antout.htm




I love this picture!











This one give a good size comparison of the Channel Master 4228 4 bay and the Terk TV-35 and some others, like the Channel Master 3010A StealthTenna.


----------



## JChin

With all the talk about grounding do I have to ground the ANT751? If I decide to go with this one and not the indoor antenna.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ylee* /forum/post/16725997
> 
> 
> In January I wrote about receiving OTA in downtown San Francisco with a DB2 attached with suction cups to an apartment window . I am pleased to report that KGO, the ABC affiliate now (again) transmitting on channel 7, comes in quite well despite the DB2 not being designed for VHF signals.




Thanks for the update ylee, how about a pic of your slick mounting solution?


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JChin* /forum/post/16750799
> 
> 
> With all the talk about grounding do I have to ground the ANT751? If I decide to go with this one and not the indoor antenna.



That is ideal, and its usually code. That being said, I dont have my antenna grounded but Im below the treeline and in fact under a tree, with a huge tin roof.


So, to each his own. But Im not as technically savvy as some of these other folks, many whom have years of broadcast engineering experience. I therefore refrain from advising people anything other than safety, in that regard.


Number one rule of hams, ground your antenna!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I am pleased to report that KGO, the ABC affiliate now (again) transmitting on channel 7, comes in quite well despite the DB2 not being designed for VHF signals.



Thats quite possible if your wide storm window frame or screen is near the DB2, making it have a effectively wide reflector. Like EV said, post some pics.


----------



## partsman_ba

Hey guys, I posted a couple of days ago and I think it got buried in a flurry of discussion. Could you all have a look at my situation and advise? Here's the link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16742280


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey partsman, didnt mean to ignore your post.



It really depends on what you want to do.


Some questions, what is your residence made of, brick, stucco, masonry, metal siding and roofing (also hidden foil vapor barriers in newer construction) are all really bad for RF signals to get to indoor antennas. Windows are good and even at that, some newer construction with high R values (insulation) can also negatively affect signals.


----------



## partsman_ba

It is a wood frame house from 1977 with wood siding and 3-tab roofing, so all the alien messages should get through when I'm not wearing my tinfoil hat







. Viewing location is on the east wall of bedroom on the west side of house, so signals do have to pass through the outside wall and interior wall. Need to stay with something inobtrusive and indoor due to wife's aesthetic sensibilities







.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Assuming you have no building material problems.


I would try a Classic Single Bowtie and combine that with your Amplified Rabbit Ears using a UVSJ Combiner.


That would be my first move.


You could try other UHF antennas with better gain, but often they tighten the beamwidth of the antenna, which is bad for you because you have the 90 degree spread. But the Antennas Direct Clearstream1 has a wide beamwidth and better gain.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Also shorten the Rabbit Ear dipoles down to about 13" a side (using the 2 fattest parts of the telescoping rods)....and lay them flat/horizontal. If that isnt satisfactory, you can lengthen them a bit and move them in variations of a vee shape towards the towers @ some angle.


Dont forget to look for sweet spots where the signal strength may be higher for some esoteric reason or other.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Tacky TV Antennas
> 
> 
> A Brief History, Plus How to Make Your Own
> 
> 
> Jim Belcher
> 
> http://www.tackyliving.com/article.php?id=61



.


----------



## GSB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16754666
> 
> 
> .Tacky TV Antennas
> 
> 
> A Brief History, Plus How to Make Your Own
> 
> 
> Jim Belcher
> 
> http://www.tackyliving.com/article.php?id=61



Hilarious! "electronic fungus", eh?


Gary


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16754523
> 
> 
> 
> I would try a Classic Single Bowtie and combine that with your Amplified Rabbit Ears using a UVSJ Combiner.



Won't there be issues combining the UHF bowtie signal with the loop signal on the MANT300?


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *partsman_ba* /forum/post/16755147
> 
> 
> Won't there be issues combining the UHF bowtie signal with the loop signal on the MANT300?



Long story short, no, there wont be issues. The UVSJ (UHF VHF Signal Joiner) Combiner/Separator has filters which significantly reduce crosstalk, out of phase, negations between the antennas. The MANT300 will go into the VHF input and the Single Classic Bowtie will go into the UHF input.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Spotted on the web...


"Unique Fractal HD-Digital indoor TV Antenna"


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Spotted on the web...
> 
> 
> "Unique Fractal HD-Digital indoor TV Antenna"



Heh, I did a fractal bowtie NEC model about a year ago. Fractalizing a bowtie with 1 iteration only serves to shorten the bowtie with the same effects as just having shorter bowtie whiskers.

1st iteration fractilization of the GH does make for a more compact antenna, but at a little loss of gain and a small shift to the higher frequencies.

Fractalization does make for a compact antenna, but in all cases Ive seen, the same antenna un-fractalized has greater gain.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

TD DB-2: 19 x 12 x 4 in.


UHF Channel 14 32 50 69

Gain (dBd) 5 6 7 8

3dB Beamwidth 70° 60° 52° 46°

VHF Hi-band Gain: Avg. -12dBd

Impedance: 75 ohms (F connector)

VSWR: Avg. 1.7:1

Cross Pol: Avg. 23dB


UHF Channel -- 14 - 32 - 50 - 69

Gain (dBd) -- -- 5 -- 6 -- 7 -- 8

3dB Beamwidth 70° -60°-52°- 46°



CM4220: 20 x 17 x 5 in.


14--21--33--42--55--68

-8---7--8.5--8.6--5--8 dBd


----------



## EscapeVelocity











http://www.kp44.org/ftp/ElectricalCo...fMaterials.php


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16756248
> 
> 
> Long story short, no, there wont be issues. The UVSJ (UHF VHF Signal Joiner) Combiner/Separator has filters which significantly reduce crosstalk, out of phase, negations between the antennas. The MANT300 will go into the VHF input and the Single Classic Bowtie will go into the UHF input.



Gotcha! Didn't think about hi/lo pass filters being in the joiner. Thanks!


----------



## holl_ands

*Re: Mini-Fractal Antenna*

Yup.....but must admit it has a certain artistic flair missing in the U-Tube antennas....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> a certain artistic flair missing in the U-Tube antennas....



Yep. Someone needs to do a Mandelbrot fractal antenna. Now, that would be pretty !


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Holl_ands says....



> Quote:
> More Hi-VHF Antennas Analyzed...and Tested:
> 
> 
> I analyzed and found "optimum" sizes for Hi-VHF Folded Dipole, Square Loop and Circular Loops:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis
> 
> I also analyzed K6STI's 5-Element Yagi which is very compact and provides exceptional F/B Ratio.
> 
> 
> Surprise!!! Folded Dipole (1/2-in Pipe) received CH7, 9, 11 and 13 from Mt Wilson (70-miles in L.A.):
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/smart
> 
> It beat out the DX Antennas DTA-5000 and RCA ANT2000 Smart Antennas...but overall winner
> 
> was YA-1713.
> 
> 
> In the attic (with lots and lots of metal in the way) the big YA-1713 and even bigger Stacked Zig-Zag
> 
> could only receive CH7 and CH9, but we're still searching for better attic locations...after it cools off some...


----------



## holl_ands

I should also add: a Low Power Analog is only 2.7 miles away on CH12, which causes adjacent channel

interference to CH11 and CH13....Fortunately, both of them plan significant power "maximizations".


Hi-VHF antenna is rotated to minimize Analog CH12 reception....and then hope for the best....


----------



## EscapeVelocity












Made in Canada!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

New antennas discovered...

*Digitenna*

*Made in USA*


Looks like some promising compact designs...centered on a properitary origami folded bowtie nick named "*the DUV tail*," with directors and reflectors, and corner reflectors, and a VHF Hi element in the back.....and integrated weather protected circuit board matching transformer baluns. Some of these could be slightly less gainful alternatives to the RCA ANT751 for those needing VHF Hi. *I particularly like the promise of the Suburban and Metro antennas, but also the City and Indoor antennas*. The City being even more compact, but giving up gain, and VHF Hi performance. The Suburban doesnt seem to really do much excpet increase the F/B ratio a bit and increases the low side of UHF band gain, and its not much larger than the Metro, just adding a small corner reflector for the bowtie....looks like a winner.

*While giving a bit less gain and directivity than the RCA ANT751 on VHF Hi, the Digitenna Metro and Suburban are 12 inches shorter.*


Patents pending.


pdfs...

Digitenna Brochure 

Indoor Model - DUV-In 

City Model - DUV-C 


Metro Model - DUV-M 











Suburban Model - DUV-S 











Fringe - DUV-F 











Deep Fringe - DUV-DF 











Xtreme Fringe - DUV-XF


----------



## nordloewelabs

great find EV!


i just compared the specs of the DUV-S Suburban DigiTenna (pictured below) against that of the CM2016. if the figures are right, the DigiTenna is superior, despite its smaller size.


....and btw, MADE IN THE USA.


----------



## dreater




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16781312
> 
> 
> great find EV!
> 
> 
> i just compared the specs of the DUV-S Suburban DigiTenna (pictured below) against that of the CM2016. if the figures are right, the DigiTenna is superior, despite its smaller size.
> 
> 
> ....and btw, MADE IN THE USA.



Yeah, I looked at the specs, and at the pictures.


That back element does not appear to be driven. It just appears to be riveted to the boom. Makes one wonder where the claimed hi-VHF gain is coming from.


Also... the brochures say that these antennas were tested at the Georgia Tech Research Institute, in their anechoic chamber. Now, I'm not an electrical engineer, but as I understand "anechoic chamber," that's a space that's designed to absorb and damp sound waves - compression waves in air. Can the EE's here explain to me what that has to do with testing an antenna's response to electromagnetic radiation? Is this a substantive claim, or is it specious jargon in this context?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Substanstative.....it absorbs radio waves, so as to isolate the source and antenna from reflective waves....so you can test the antenna without interference.


The rear element doesnt seem to be doing anything but reflecting VHF Hi transmissions back to the bowtie at the appropriate length more or less to do so (33 inches is a 1/2 wave at channel 7) and at an appropriate distance more or less for good VHF Hi reflection as well.


From what I understand.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Aha! Looking at the City Model specs the Duv Tail bowties are 21" wide.....prime territory for some VHF Hi gain as well as UHF gains tuned to the new more compact UHF television band.


----------



## NTNgod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16781312
> 
> 
> ....and btw, MADE IN THE USA.



Yeah, they're just north of Milwaukee, IIRC. The president of the company pops in at the milwaukeehdtv.org forums from time to time.


According to a recent post of his, business is doing pretty well for a smallish company.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Pics of the Digitenna Suburban in the wild.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

 Information on Digitenna ...in pdf format.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Some more thoughts, the Indoor model looks good as well, I bet it performs at least as good as the Classic Single Wire Bowtie, but at 23" its much larger than it.


It looks like you can get the Suburban model and if you leave off assembling the corner reflector, you also have the Metro model. I think Im going to pick a Suburban model up for testing.


The balun box is like 3 inches wide, Im guessing so that makes the individual whiskers about 10" long each....which happens to be where mclapp ended up (or just under) on his optimization of the 4 bay whisker lengths for the new smaller UHF band Ch. 14-51.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Just picked up this classic vintage beaut! Corner reflector bowtie.


----------



## NTNgod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16781682
> 
> 
> I think Im going to pick a Suburban model up for testing.



Note that it looks like they're trying to sell primarily through installers, and only allow the antennas to be sold for full MSRP online (no discounting involved).


I stumbled upon a YouTube seminar for installers (given in the Grand Rapids, MI area it sounds like) given by the DigiTenna president, and that seemed to be the business model that he's shooting for.

YouTube link (there's actually about 15 parts if you have some time to kill; some sales training, some technical)


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for the links and info NTN!


Ness Electronics and Skywalker seem to be distributors that are online.


BTW, that video is pretty darn good primer on digital television and aslo antenna design (starting about Part 10).


Ill check the rest out later.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

He's wants to play with the big boys, Channel Master and Winegard. (RonC, someone sees oportunity like you).


Bullets from the video...



He says its a Batwing style antenna.


Folds increase surface area.


Length optimized for new smaller UHF bandwidth with an eye towards VHF Hi as well.


Balun box superior design and waterproofing, plus horizontal mount, for waterproofness and 90 degree coax trial away from balun.


Modular design, add or remove reflectors for less or more F/B ratio.


Amplifier balun module adjustible gain levels coming in 3 months or so.


Contemplating offering a mast mounted amplifier as well.


Possible Low Band antenna add on in the future....but not too enthusiatic about that (back burner).


I dont know if I agree with him about some comments about not needing good VHF Hi performance...but it was nuanced....mixed with some correct comments. (Part 13).


Seems to be down on Terrestrial Digital, but not using their name.....went on the dbd dbi rant, which is a dubious rant IMO, and also a head nod to the ClearStream Antennas not being VHF High antennas, but marketed as such....again without referencing them.


Figures from Georgia Tech tests....


Comparison of Winegard 9022 90" long average 9dbd UHF, -24dbd VHF Hi.......Digitenna DUV-F 53" long UHF 11dbd, 3dbd VHF Hi.


Winegard SquareShooter 1000 average VHF gain -29dbd.


Winegard 9083??? 50 inchish 8db average gain on UHF.


Really likes the CM 7777 amplifier. Doesnt like the Winegard 269 because it doesnt have an FM Trap, even though it has a high threshold of input overload. (EV says:Seems to me you can add an off board FM Trap if youve got FM troubles).


Rips the Magnavox CECB. Likes the Channel Master 7000.


RG6 cable man, prefers solid copper core.



Great video, covers a lot of installation and antenna amp cable tuner system design, plus terminology and theory. Really knowledgable fellow.


----------



## NTNgod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16781927
> 
> 
> Seems to be down on Terrestrial Digital, but not using their name



What? The "They [the unnamed antenna company] are mostly a marketing company, not really an antenna company" quote didn't strike you as effusive praise?










While I wouldn't personally spend the $120 or so the Suburban-class models are apparently listed as (for one, I've almost got my UHF needs covered with my indoor homebrews - just need a little more work to get all my desired stations; my VHF-hi will require some more experimentation), he does seem like he knows his stuff, and I'd always like to see a Wisconsin firm do well.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16781927
> 
> 
> Winegard 9083???


 PR-9018


----------



## haydeecm

I went and picked up the Terk HDTVa today, and for what its worth it pulls many stations my UFO didn't in the same exact position (believe me, I have played around with the UFO and pointed it every which way) and the stations are stronger. I was surprised since the UFO has a better reputation here, but I guess its true how your mileage may vary.


Now I am wondering if I should invest in some better RG6 cable than the one I am using (thin RG59). How much difference does quad shield make? I am using 25ft in order to place by the window pointing at the signals.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NTNgod* /forum/post/16781801
> 
> 
> Note that it looks like they're trying to sell primarily through installers, and only allow the antennas to be sold for full MSRP online (no discounting involved).
> 
> YouTube link



i found his approach rather consumer-unfriendly.... the presentation is very interesting though. i recommend it to those interested in learning more about antennas. i played all 20 parts in the background, while browsing the web.


i would try the Suburban model if it were cheaper. the CM2016 is just 30-something on SolidSignal now. that's the one i ordered.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *haydeecm* /forum/post/16787306
> 
> 
> 
> I went and picked up the Terk HDTVa today, and for what its worth it pulls many stations my UFO didn't in the same exact position [...]
> 
> 
> Now I am wondering if I should invest in some better RG6 cable than the one I am using (thin RG59).



i tested both the UFO and the HDTVa for 10 days. i played a lot with both and found 2 sweet spots in my place where either could be used. overall, i liked the HDTVa better, though.... however, both antennas are great if you are near the transmitters. at the end i had to return them because multipath is a problem in my area.


regarding RG59, it should be avoided even at short lengths.... get cheap and good RG6 from Monoprice.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Terk HDTVa doesnt have a bad reputation here. And yes YMMV, try to make that clear at every opportunity. Good to hear its working well for you haydeem.


I have a Digitenna Suburban on the way.


----------



## NTNgod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16790837
> 
> 
> I have a Digitenna Suburban on the way.



Where did you pick it up from? Ebay (I saw one on there that ended yesterday)? Ness/Skywalker/one of the other distributors?


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Now I am wondering if I should invest in some better RG6 cable than the one I am using (thin RG59). How much difference does quad shield make? I am using 25ft in order to place by the window pointing at the signals.



Good RG6 over good RG59 gives you +1db difference at 100ft at channel 51 and +.75db at channel 7 with a 100ft run.


You could probably realize worthwhile gains if you are on the edge of reception by going from a cheap RG59 to a quality RG6 at that length.


Belden 1694a RG6 has a great reputation

Belden 1505a RG59 also has a great reputation, but not as good of loss factors as the above RG6


----------



## partsman_ba

Check with the sponsors at the top of the page for RG6. Monoprice has great prices!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

 How To Make A HD Antenna Out Of A Shoebox 

HomeMadeAntennas blogspot


----------



## holl_ands

Shoebox antenna is a simple dipole with a tin-foil reflector, hence the usual 4:1 Balun is not required.

[A Folded Dipole would need the usual 4:1 Balun.] And bandwidth is less than a bowtie.


A 1:1 Coax Balun could be added, but why bother since it only has one bay (less gain than a DB-2),

so short range only.


Outdoor 4-Bay looked pretty good except those tie-wraps are going to fall apart in a couple years.

Substitute some really heavy duty tie-wraps....or even better, use some very long screws.

And expect it to really whip around in high winds!!!!! Until it flies away.....


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I picked up one of these to try out on television frequencies....





























But the post office mangled the box and the long VHF Lo elements which are 46" long on each side.


I tried bending them back into shape, but one sliced at about the 35" mark.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a Corner Reflector bowtie, that I just got. Bowties are 6" long a piece, for a total of 12.5" including the 1/2 gap between them. Reflector rods are 21" long and the bowtie boom length is 7" from the apex of the corner reflector. Was $10.95 in 1986 Radio Shack catalogue.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Quantum FX ANT-102*


Just got this one in. Its bigger than the Lava A-463 which I no longer have....nearly the size of the RS 1880, however the elements arent as wide, as you can see. The power supply DC transformer is inside the base....(the usual arrangement is with a wall wart)....I dont know if that affects noise levels/interference. Ill give it a whirl tonight. This one has a remote control to turn the unit, but mine didnt ship with one (though one is on the way).


Edit from post below...



> Quote:
> Just did a quick test of the Quantum FX ANT-102 against the RS 1880.
> 
> 
> Both on the sweet spot lamp in the window, with 6 ft extra of coax to the coax permanently attached to the antennas.
> 
> 
> Both performed similarly bringing in all stations, with Channel 4 (real channel 34) right on the digital cliff of breaking up, but solid reception. And 16 (real channel 16) was also right on the edge and actually breaking up....but this is with the antennas pointed towards Charleston and catching 16 off the backside.
> 
> 
> A winner. Recommended.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> centered on a proprietary origami folded bowtie nick named "the DUV tail,"



I dont know how properitary it is. Solid folded (Ive seen triple and quad way folded) bowties have been around for decades on both indoor and outdoor antennas. Im sure youll run across some EV.


OK, if its bent just exactly that way with just that size bowtie, then I guess it could be technically called proprietary, heh.


Mostly that may serve like to increase the spread of the whiskers, which mclapp has found to be of little gain. Or it could behave more like a full cone bowtie, and increase the bandwidth, which isnt needed in a bowtie for uhf only.

Solid and cone bowties do catch a lot more wind though.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Or it could behave more like a full cone bowtie, and increase the bandwidth, which isnt needed in a bowtie for uhf only



That certainly may be the intention, along with increasing the size of the bowtie to shift the gain curve down......working on increasing gain both on the new UHF bandwidth and to a lessor extent but still important VHF High.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Just did a quick test of the Quantum FX ANT-102 against the RS 1880.


Both on the sweet spot lamp in the window, with 6 ft extra of coax to the coax permanently attached to the antennas.


Both performed similarly bringing in all stations, with Channel 4 (real channel 34) right on the digital cliff of breaking up, but solid reception. And 16 (real channel 16) was also right on the edge and actually breaking up....but this is with the antennas pointed towards Charleston and catching 16 off the backside.


A winner. Recommended.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Still waiting on the Cornet ET-8DA to come.


----------



## Frankie20

So far the Quantum FX ANT-102 sounds like it's a good performer.


How well is the antenna build tho? I notice in your last photo that the bottom and top frame has a gap between them, and also the ANT jack seems a little crooket. Did you take a look inside?


----------



## haydeecm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16800615
> 
> 
> Just did a quick test of the Quantum FX ANT-102 against the RS 1880.
> 
> 
> A winner. Recommended.



Thanks for the review, i have to say I am intrigued. Its pretty well priced to (saw it going for $12 + shipping). Cant wait to see how it does in your rankings.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Cornet ET-8DA*


The ET-8DA come with a J Pole mount, UBolts and mounting hardware, Power Injector (amp is within the unit), 6 ft of coax, and a 12V DC Wall Wart, (the wall wart and power injector are not permanently attached to one another)....and also an extremely well written thorough installation, tips, and troubleshooting guide....with many mounting options. (It also comes ready for easy vertical orientation mounting hardware, for the Brits.) The wingspan of the circular VHF fold out folded dipoles is about 36 inches.


This one is very similar to the Terk HDTVo. Unfortunately Ive never seen the Terk version up close to compare build quality (though Terk is known for their build quality)....or relative size. The Cornet appears to be fairly well built though. The swing out VHF folded dipoles are plastic undoubtedly with some wire in there somewhere. I can tell you that the UHF element that is so similar to the Terk HDTVa (which I have had in my posession) is NOT as high of quality as the Terk HDTVa....although I cant compare side by side (since i dont have it anymore) or compare sizing, though from memory, Id say tha they are exactly the same size.


I expect it to perform well on UHF (like the Terk HDTVa), and decent on VHF High and FM, and rather poor on VHF Lo.


Nothing in the literature on amplifier power level (gain figures), much less noise figures.


As well written as the guide book is the box is attrocious...


Quote:


Durable


Use the new material and streamline shape in an improved feature for overall and complete seal up against wind and sunshine.


Easy to Install


Use sophisticated unity design to avoid complexity in installation process.


Super Strength in receipt of signal


Reasonable structure and low noise microwave amplifier tube to increase the resolution of image.


On the side of the box I see some figures....


VHF LowTV & FM 28db

VHF HiTV 28-32db

UHF TV 32-36db

Output impedence 75ohm

Noise figure 1.7-3.5db

Max Output Level 105 db/u V































Here is a pic of the Terk HDTVo mounted for comparison purposes...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Artec Antenna*


The Artec is approximately 7 inches wide by 4 inches high. Its made of a foam sandwiched between 2 outer layers, very lightweight.....I suppose there is a loop or some sort of fractal or bowtie wires within the foam material. The base is lightweight plastic. This may be a candidate for best portable backpackable antenna (the Classic Single Bowtie and RCA ANT108 RE&Loop being the current favorites). Ill give it a try tonight.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Mystery Vintage Double Bowtie with Rabbit Ears*


The brass telescoping VHF dipoles seem to be missing their twinlead wires. The bowties are sturdy and not flimsy and extremely easy to bend out of shape like the more recent RS and Channel Master 4149 versions of this type antenna.











Close-up


----------



## Frankie20

Radio Shack was not the first one to design the double bowtie antenna. If I had to guess, the double bowtie antenna in that photo was made in the early 1970's.


----------



## 300ohm

I would guess even earlier than that, maybe early to mid 1960s. That type of curly-que ornament on the reflector was popular on lamps and other furniture back then.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Edited comments on Cornet ET-8DA.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

A-Neutronics AV 891 on the way. This looks promising. Its selling like hot cakes...you know where.


----------



## SJMAYE

Any of these indoor models offer a display showing signal strength?


Crazy thought. I am trying to use a digital TV converter box as a radio for digital TV sound. No such radios out yet. It would be helpful to see the signal strength of the antenna in a particular orientation.


Crazy question as it depends on what channel I want to receive.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SJMAYE* /forum/post/16806771
> 
> 
> Any of these indoor models offer a display showing signal strength?
> 
> 
> Crazy thought. I am trying to use a digital TV converter box as a radio for digital TV sound. No such radios out yet. It would be helpful to see the signal strength of the antenna in a particular orientation.
> 
> 
> Crazy question as it depends on what channel I want to receive.



No antenna has a signal strength indicator built-in.


You'll have to use your ATSC tuner since it must be selective as to the channel received.


It's unlikely that you will see any ATSC audio-only receivers anytime soon. Until the ATSC-MVH standard is adopted and implemented, such a receiver would be impractical for many applications.


----------



## Zindar

Hello, I bought this cheap antenna from Walmart for between $9 and $10, and while it works okay on some channels, some it doesn't, and my most important channel (local NBC broadcast by KXAN) it gets zero signal on. The tower is only 10-15 miles from my house, and I'm pretty sure the tower is up on a hill.


Does it make sense that I could be getting zero signal on the channel? I would have thought I could get a partial signal.


My TV is on the second floor of the house, and there aren't that many trees around.


I'm able to get a 100% refund for this antenna though, because I still have the receipt and I only bought it recently. If the antenna is really that bad, I guess I can upgrade to a better antenna.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Is your hosue made of stucco, masonry (concrete, brick, stone), or metal siding/roofing, also tiled roofing?


Stick the antenna out the window facing the towers and see what happens?


Post your TV fool and basic location.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NTNgod* /forum/post/16781801
> 
> 
> I stumbled upon a YouTube seminar for installers (given in the Grand Rapids, MI area it sounds like) given by the DigiTenna president, and that seemed to be the business model that he's shooting for.
> 
> YouTube link (there's actually about 15 parts if you have some time to kill; some sales training, some technical)



I finally got around to watching these videos (all 20 parts) late last night. I found them very informative and would recommend them to anyone interested in OTA DTV reception. Provides some great tips on dos and don'ts as well as some practical antenna comparisons. As others have said, it's a great introduction to the world of DTV!


----------



## Zindar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16807554
> 
> 
> Is your hosue made of stucco, masonry (concrete, brick, stone), or metal siding/roofing, also tiled roofing?
> 
> 
> Stick the antenna out the window facing the towers and see what happens?
> 
> 
> Post your TV fool and basic location.



It's a brick house, though the back wall, which is right next to my antenna is made of hardyplank, which I guess is like masonry. The roof is made of composition shingles, and there there is a metal drip-edge that lines the perimeter of the roof.


I don't know what TV fool means, but my location is:


30.451247 latitude by -97.766151 longitude (I got it from google maps).


I just returned my antenna to walmart today, which maybe I regret, because I should have tested opening my window to see what happens, so now I guess I need to buy another antenna. I do have some rabbit ears, but my understanding is that only helps with VHF, and most of the channels here (I think all but one) are UHF, including KXAN, which is the one I most want to get.


Looking at the KXAN website, and trying to pinpoint it's location manually in google maps, I get coordinates of 30.325545 latitude by -97.800035 longitude for that tower.


The lady at walmart (which is just a few miles away from my house in the opposite direction of the tower), claims she's used the exact antenna I bought, and gotten 10 channels with it. I only get maybe 4 of them, and some of those are only partial signals, so something's going on here.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That brick and hardy plank is killin' your signal. Its not the antennas fault. However, you can do better than the Philips antenna you bought (though its not a "terrible" antenna).


Ill look at your TVfool later, and make some recommendations.


You need to think about how you can get outside the brick and hardplank or to a window that faces the towers. A window that is 90 degrees or less from the towers you can pass an antenna through and mount just outside is good too.


Go to this site and put your address in....follow the instructions (your exact address wont be visible to anyone). Post a link to the final page with the charts and graphs. (Just copy the adress in the address bar with a right mouse click and paste the link here with a right mouse click).


www.tvfool.com 



PS, you can hook your Rabbit Ears up and use them to test. Dont telescope them out, just fold out the one fat section to horizontal positions and hold perpendicular to the towers (in the window facing the towers or outside the window). You should do well that close to the towers.


Then we will get you better than good.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Check this one out....



> Quote:
> eBAY Antenna Walito 2602/ Quantum FX ANT-108
> 
> Youtube Video: Ebay DTV antenna Walito 2602 / Quantum FX ANT-108 Apartment Style Mount Test
> 
> 
> I mounted it "apartment style", on a short CD spindle, setting it on the TV.
> 
> 
> Rotation motor didn't work, as it was a brushless "A/C pulse rotation" motor that are used in cheapo electric analog pool clocks. Sure it has few parts to corrode, but if it was parked in a midpoint, it won't budge. If it had a solenoid that tapped the motor to run, then it would work all the time. Another idea would be a plastic spring-tooth system so that the magnetic pole of the motor wheel would be at the correct position to move when power was applied. Maybe washing the sticky grease inside out with WD-40 could help. Cheap Tongcheng brushless motor. Yes, I took apart the motor from the A-Neutronics, to show what it uses inside.
> 
> 
> I extended the dipole bar, and open the reflector cup.
> 
> 
> All but one of the pre-transition stations came in. It would probably come in once I put the antenna in the attic.
> 
> 
> Some pixelation occurred, but that's because:
> 
> I had 2 computers running in the same room as the antenna
> 
> There are 2 500 GB external hard drives running at 80% full capacity by the computers
> 
> Antenna was mounted 4 feet off the ground
> 
> There is a garage door 15 yards in front of the antenna
> 
> There's a digital radio clock running 6 inches behind it
> 
> The creator-autographed Naked Mole Rat on top of the radio clock is running interference
> 
> 
> As for low-power stations, not seen in the test... they come in okay.
> 
> 
> One more thing I haven't tested yet: I hope the remote control receiver box does not share the same fault I found with the A-Neutronics control box: The rotation motor control box reacted to a laptop's IrDA transmitter in "broadcast" mode. That means when the laptop was "broadcasting" in infrared, the A-Neutronics antenna jiggled around like it had a nervous tic. It frightened me at first until I found out what was going on.
> 
> 
> Want more hardcore raw tests like this? Let me know.
> 
> http://www.dtvusaforum.com/dtv-hdtv-...ant-108-a.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Piggie reviews indoor antennas on DTVUSA forum.



> Quote:
> CM4149 - EA DTV2B - CS2 - RS Budget Antennas
> 
> 
> Piggie's Indoor Antenna Reviews.
> 
> 
> Four Antennas in this first review:
> 
> Channel Master 4149 (previously sold by Radio Shack as the RS 15-623)
> 
> Eagle Aspen DTV2B UHF
> 
> ClearStream2
> 
> Radio Shack Budget Antenna


----------



## Zindar

Thanks for all this helpful advice. By this evening I'll go to TVfool as you instructed.


By the way, I have two outside walls in the room with my TV, one facing west, and one south. I'm sure at least one of those windows is facing an angle less than 90 degrees from most of the towers.


Also, the south window is directly above my patio cover which is made of quite sturdy material. I can climb up there and stand on the cover. I still wouldn't be able to reach the second story window, but actually if I bring ladder up with me to the top of the patio cover, I could quite easily stand within arm's reach of that window. But it's the south facing window, and I have a feeling the west window would be a better place to put the antenna.


I assume some kind of cable would have to pass through the wall of the house, and offhand I'm not sure how to accomplish that. I guess I'll need to research that.


Meanwhile, I'll be posting later with the tvfool results.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

 LAVA A-2605 Outdoor Antenna Report @ DTVUSA Forum.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I love this advertising. Yikes! 100 miles! Beats the Winegard 76series aka "old tower antennas"!











Covers the entire CONTINENT! Including Alaska Hawaii and Canada (but strangely not Mexico). No color codes needed out antenna works EVERYWHERE! LOL!


----------



## PHOnos

Yesterday I was going to Fry's in Anaheim to checkout their selection of indoor antennas but stopped by Home Depot to return some unused projects stuff.


While there, FWIW, I picked up the following antenna that works on all channels, including KTTV 11 (with some searching for the "sweet spot" near the kitchen TV) here in Orange CA (at the "crush). Actually, "sweet spot" turned out to be around the corner in the dinning room (to the dismay of my wife).


GE

Omni Amplified TV Antenna Indoor

Model 24727

$33.60


BTW, did anyone ever find out the story on the loss of KTTV 11 by so many folks here in the LA area immediately after the final transition?


-PHOnos


----------



## Zindar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16808264
> 
> 
> Go to this site and put your address in....follow the instructions (your exact address wont be visible to anyone). Post a link to the final page with the charts and graphs. (Just copy the adress in the address bar with a right mouse click and paste the link here with a right mouse click).
> 
> 
> www.tvfool.com



Okay, my results are here:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b09a0e4746b1c0 


Looking at that chart, if I just got the green ones (the ones easiest to pick up, according to the site), I would be very happy. Also, I just noticed that of the green ones, the only two that are not the same direction from my house as the others are no big deal, but one's a spanish station I don't care about, and the other is PBS, there's already another PBS in the same direction as the main cluster, so this means I really probably only need to worry about tuning into that one direction.


I think I'll now go over and do a test the way you described with my rabbit ears untelescoped and perpindicular, with the window open, like you said. I do have a screen, which I hope won't interfere with the signal though. Also, I don't know if I need to position the antenna right next to the window for this test or not. If so, I guess I could run a coaxial cable over from my TV to a position next to the open window. I certainly do have enough cable on hand to do that.


----------



## Zindar

Wow, looking at that map it seems I was mistaken about the direction of the towers. They're slightly west of due south, and if I'm not mistaken, that's the exact direction my window that overlooks my patio cover faces..


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Wow! What a finish to the race!



Screen very bad.


Shooting for green local stations due South at 9 miles should be easy.


You have one VHF High Fox Channel 7.


The last 2 greens are in the other direction...but gettable, depending on where you want to mount/place the antenna. A deck/patio mount is doable if it has open to the South....you can use a small outdoor probably.


Indoors or outdoors, if outside where are you going to mount and how big of an antenna do you want to get involved with.


----------



## Zindar

As I said, I don't mind getting the ones that aren't south, but I have more results to report.


It turns out, the window overlooking the patio cover is a small hemispheric window with no screen, but I can't open the window.


But there's another window on the same south wall that I can indeed open, but it has a screen. Also, directly to the south a couple hundred feet away are some very large trees blocking my view of the horizon, so I don't know if that affects things. Also, my block is at a slightly lower altitude than the rest of the neighborhood, so I live in a slight dip, but maybe it helps that my TV is on the second floor.


Now, it also turns out, I don't have the equipment currently to splice my rabbit ears onto a long cable, because I'd need a female-to-female connecter to do that, which I don't have. But I was able to get my rabbit ears within about 10 feet of my open window, but in a direction NW of it, so my line of sight was looking to the SE, when I really need to look SW to get a perfect line of sight.


But having said all that, it made a big difference. I actually get fairly good reception of KXAN now (even though there's a screen there). When I close the window, I still get a signal, which is better than before, so long as my rabbit ears are in the position I mentioned, but it gets pixelated and sometimes goes in and out, so it's better with the window open. Unfortunately, I don't want to always leave my window open, so I'd like a solution that doesn't involve leaving the window open.


Still, I wonder, if I were to get a better antenna and/or run a cable that's just another 10 feet longer so the antenna is right next to that window looking out south, even with the window closed will that be good enough? Or should I really be looking at getting the antenna outside? If I need to get it outside, I guess I could either mount it by temporarily removing the screen so I can reach out there to somehow attach it to the wall of the house, or alternatively, I could go out there with a ladder. Directly under that window is a patio (no cover there). Or I could mount it to the patio cover roof which is just about 20 feet west of that location but still faces south as needed. Plus I think it's easier for me to get up on the patio cover and work up there, instead of working while balancing on a ladder. But the part I'm not sure about is how to run a cable from out there to inside the house. (I assume that would be needed.)


Or I wonder if it's easier to access the outside world from my attic? Maybe not. It seems like I do remember Time Warner a long time ago drilled a hole in that exact wall, but on the first floor, when they ran a cable to our kitchen, because my wife wanted to watch TV in the kitchen. I guess that doesn't really help me here, but I guess that's how getting a cable through there is done. I guess I just get a big drill bit and drill a hole right through the wall, I'm guessing maybe sealing the area with silicone or something.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Well it all depends on what you want to do and how much effort you want to put into it.


Outside you can go with these (Im still not clear on your inside options - can you put something on the window sill, can you mount suction cups to the window?)


Outside


RCA ANT751

Digitenna Suburban/Metro

Channel Master 2016

Delhi Super Antenna

Channel Master 3016


Slightly smaller but pushing it on that VHF station (trial and error necessary)


Philips MANT940 mount sideways

DB2 (or Eagle Aspen clone)


These arent VHF antennas, but you may get enough being so close (assuming you get them in the window (without a screen) facing South or outside.


If the DB2 isnt giving you good enough reception on Channel 7 Fox, you can add 16" (or perhaps a bit smaller) bare wire (like 14 gauge or better) on each of the feedpoints of the DB2, just wrap the ends around the threaded bolt and screw down the wingnuts..... increase VHF performance. They should stand out horizontally.


You can mount the DB2 with suction cup hooks directly to the glass of the window or hooks from the upper sill.


Some things to think about.


Get back to me tommorrow.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Music Break...

kraftwerk - antenna


----------



## nicoge21




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16809408



I can pick up stations from all over the country? Wow! put me down for 3!


----------



## nordloewelabs

the problem with these space-age-looking antennas sold on eBay is that their descriptions sound very vague and too optimistic....they are a shot in the dark, as i see it.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16812361
> 
> 
> the problem with these space-age-looking antennas sold on eBay is that their descriptions sound very vague and too optimistic....they are a shot in the dark, as i see it.



Exactly! Most of them are extremely cheap looking and don't provide any sort of performance statistics, so buyer beware. Odds are they spent more money on the rotator mechanism than they did on the actual antenna.


----------



## Zindar

I did some more testing today. I plugged in my 50 foot coax cable to the antenna input port of my HD TiVo (because I don't have a shorter cable that's long enough to reach the window). I took the other end of the cable, and made about a 1-2 foot diameter circle out of it, and it seemed to act like an antenna when I did that.


Standing right in front of the window, out of the 5 UHF channels I care about, I can pick up 4 pretty well. For some reason I can't pick up KLRU, even though it's extremely close to other towers that I do pick up. And I can't pick up the VHF channel, which I guess I shouldn't be surprised at, since I don't actually have an antenna hooked up.


This was with my window closed by the way, but with my blinds raised up out of the way, and my foil like drapes moved aside. (My wife installed these wierd drapes to help control heat penetration from outside.


Now for some reason, when I put the antenna in front of my much smaller, semicircular window (which has no screen), I get much worse reception. Maybe it's because of a film I installed on it that adheres to the glass which is designed to cut down solar radiation from getting through. The window with the screen doesn't have that film.


So at this point I could consider putting an antenna on the window sill between the blinds and the window, if they make antennas that thin, or I'm also willing to suction cup the antenna to the inside of the window. Suction cupping to the outside wouldn't work because the screen's in the way.


But I'm still unclear because of my difficulty with KLRU whether I should be steering towards an outside installation. If I go that route, I wonder if they make antennas for the outside that don't need power sources. That would relive me of the need to run a weatherproof power conduit to the antenna. I would still need to figure out how to get the signal itself to pass through my wall.


----------



## Lord_Zath

window tint/film will typically hamper reception especially if it's metalized (mirrored).


----------



## phildaant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lord_Zath* /forum/post/16814334
> 
> 
> window tint/film will typically hamper reception especially if it's metalized (mirrored).



Yep, I had to put my antennae (DB2 bowtie and Terk rabbit ears) on the side of the window. Even shutter doors can block signals!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

And metal blinds are super signal killers (especially horizontal blinds).


In your house Zindar, you dont need a tin-foil cap to keep the Alien Gubment Mind Rays from getting to your brain!


Or are YOU extraterrestrial Zindar......funny name....


Im onto you!


----------



## jkeelsnc

Hmm, all of these different fancy antenna reviews are interesting. However, I decided to build myself a variation of the home made bowtie antenna. What I did was get 4 of the already nice performing cheap UHF bowties from Radio Shack. I connected them together on and snapped them onto a dowel. Of course the top and bottom 300 ohm leads cross over just like the wires do on the home made coat hanger version. I can report that the results are very good. I live in a mountainous region in Boone, NC. I also live in a little bit of a hole surrounded by trees and a few apartment buildings. However, I get 3 channels (plus subchannels) very reliably from 100 miles away in the Piedmont Triad area of NC (Greensboro/Winston-Salem) including NBC, ABC, and CW. I also get the local UNCTV digital translator in boone. So that is a fourth station though it is local. Between the 4 stations I get 8 reliable digitally clear subchannels. So this little gem made from 4 RS bowties is a very good and easy to build project for a do it yourselfer. You can get a wooden dowel that they will snap on to perfectly from Lowe's. I believe mine is a 5/16" dowel. It is a nice setup. I also have a 15db low noise amplifier but it does not help. I have an RCA loop/dipole antenna and an RCA 1450 flat panel antenna. But neither of those come even close to what the 4 bay bowtie antenna made from RS bowties can do. It is excellent. I will add a grid reflector to the back soon which will make it even better!.


----------



## jkeelsnc

I should also add that I didn't build this antenna for outdoor use. However, I do use it on my doorstep under a COVERED porch. But out in the weather it would not be good. The RS bowties will rust and the other connections. This one is best for attic or indoor use. Actually, I'd think it is very good for the attic in most homes. It has excellent performance.


----------



## jkeelsnc

I want to add another comment. Even without the amplifer attached I detect a little electric shock when I touch the bowtie elements. Should this be the case? It is odd. I know it is a fairly high gain antenna and it works spectacularly. However, I wouldn't think you'd feel an electric current in the antenna elements. Hmmm, it is interesting though it does not seem to cause any problems at all. The antenna is connected though a 300ohm to 75 OHM balun through a quad shield 75 ohm cable to the back of a Zenith DTT900 DTV converter box (which I like a lot, the little Z is a great converter).


----------



## Zindar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16814523
> 
> 
> And metal blinds are super signal killers (especially horizontal blinds).



Actually my horizontal blinds aren't metal; they look like some kind of plastic. But the drapes over them look like some kind of foil-like material designed to keep the sun out, so that could be interfering. But there's no sun tint glued to that window, so based on the last few posts I see this could explain why I get better reception though that window than through the other, was does have tint glued on.


Maybe I should try out an indoor antenna, mounted between the blinds and that window (maybe hang it one one of the horizontal blind slats). If that's not good enough, I guess I could return the antenna, and then go the outside route and drill a hole through the wall.


I guess I might still have problems based on something you said earlier: Even though there is no tint on that window, it does have a screen on it. In fact, if I remember correctly the screen is supposed to better than average at blocking solar radiation, so maybe that includes blocking TV signals.







I have a feeling I should remain open-minded to an outdoor installation. Maybe I should avoid the hassle of testing, returning, and buying another and just go straight to an outdoor model.


----------



## CasualOTAer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jkeelsnc* /forum/post/16815020
> 
> 
> I want to add another comment. Even without the amplifer attached I detect a little electric shock when I touch the bowtie elements. Should this be the case? It is odd. I know it is a fairly high gain antenna and it works spectacularly. However, I wouldn't think you'd feel an electric current in the antenna elements. Hmmm, it is interesting though it does not seem to cause any problems at all. The antenna is connected though a 300ohm to 75 OHM balun through a quad shield 75 ohm cable to the back of a Zenith DTT900 DTV converter box (which I like a lot, the little Z is a great converter).





Do you have a voltmeter? Put it on AC volts, then touch one lead to a bow tie and the other to the Zenith's case (pick bare metal, like a screw head on the back or bottom. Does it read 0? Switch the meter to DC volts (in the range of 100-200 V), and do the test with the red lead on the antenna, black on the case. If still 0, reverse the leads and measure again.


Tell us what you find.


No, you shouldn't get a shock from this antenna arrangement. You may have problems with the ground on that AC outlet. Or, there may be a problem in the converter box that is putting voltage on the antenna input.


If it turns out to be a DC voltage, there is a DC blocking adapter, for example
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=VB-1000 

that you could use in the line from antenna to converter.


But the best approach is to determine how voltage is getting on the antenna and keep that from happening in the first place.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It's a brick house, though the back wall, which is right next to my antenna is made of hardyplank, which I guess is like masonry. The roof is made of composition shingles, and there there is a metal drip-edge that lines the perimeter of the roof.



You also need to know it you have foil vapor barrier or foil backed insulation, like I do.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Even without the amplifer attached I detect a little electric shock when I touch the bowtie elements. Should this be the case? It is odd.



Not odd, common. A little feed back voltage from the TV. Helps to speed up the galvanic corrosion on outdoor antennas, heh.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I love this advertising. Yikes! 100 miles!



Another item destined for the antenna museum of fantastic claims, heh.


The FTC completely ignores the antenna market, so its strictly buyer beware.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jkeelsnc* /forum/post/16815020
> 
> 
> I want to add another comment. Even without the amplifer attached I detect a little electric shock when I touch the bowtie elements. Should this be the case? It is odd. I know it is a fairly high gain antenna and it works spectacularly. However, I wouldn't think you'd feel an electric current in the antenna elements. Hmmm, it is interesting though it does not seem to cause any problems at all. The antenna is connected though a 300ohm to 75 OHM balun through a quad shield 75 ohm cable to the back of a Zenith DTT900 DTV converter box (which I like a lot, the little Z is a great converter).



Most electronic equipment (and appliances) have an EMI Filter on the AC input,

which can leak a small amount of AC voltage into the "Chassis Ground", esp if

equipment/wall sockets don't use a 3-prong plug. By the time it gets to the

attic/mast there can be a small voltage detected when you touch between the

coax and an attic/mast ground.


"Chassis Ground" voltage on electronic equipment can also be slightly

above "Water Pipe Ground" due to a (normal) imbalance of current between

the "Neutral" and "Ground" wires. Better known as a Ground Loop:
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/ 


And thirdly, if you change out an electrical wall socket, you might

detect a small voltage even when the circuit breaker is open, cuz

these filter capacitors also store a small amount of DC voltage,

as I found out the hard way....the Dishwasher was the culprit.....


Not to worry unless it's above say 10-20 volts AC or DC.....

If it's more than this, investigate further....perhaps hiring an electrician....


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Other than that, that is a great ad hoc antenna!


Good Job!


----------



## Zindar

Wow, I think my problem is unexpectedly solved.


I was considering an outside antenna, which I don't know much about how to install, but from what I've read, you're supposed to ground them with a 3 foot stake driven into the ground, plus to run the cable I think I'd need a crimping device (which I don't have, but I think I could borrow), and other things, so I thought I just give an inside antenna a shot before going that route.


I went to Sears, because their website said they sold one of the Philips models Escape recommended. When I got there, they didn't have it. But they had a cheaper one that's probably not as good: The Philips SDV2710 (not amplified), for only about $18 or $19. I thought I'd at least see what would happen if I put that right in my window, fully prepared to take it back if it wasn't good enough and bite the bullet and install an outdoor antenna from the recommended list of this thread.


I also got some cheap $2.99 couplers that allowed me to splice together two of my short coax cables to one longer one so that I can now reach my window (where before I couldn't).


I set it up, and at first noticed all the towers in sight of my window were coming in well. Then I lowered my blinds covering up my antenna, sandwiching it against the window, and the signal was still good. Then I lowered my metallic looking foil drapes, and instantly the signal was horrible or missing! (even though the foil was behind the antenna, not blocking the towers from.) Those drapes destroy my signal, apparently from just being in close proximity to my antenna.


I lifted them up and pushed them way to the side, and the signal was 95% perfect. I'd say 100%, but there was a small amount of pixelation that occurred over 30 seconds or so and goes away.


I then totally removed the foil draps off the rod and moved them well away from my antenna, and now my signal is 100% perfect. So there are other windows in the room with these foil drapes, but those are okay, as they don't interfere with my antenna - but I think I'm now going to permanently leave this one window drapeless, for the sake of my antenna. It's got blinds on it, so that seems like it'll be good enough for blocking the sun.


So in the end, a little cheap antenna is all I needed. True, I suppose if I want to pick up more distant stations or one off in other directions, I could consider an outdoor antenna, but for now, this is a quick and easy solution that satisfies me.


I also notice that besides the 6 stations I wanted to get, which I now get, there are others that have the same channel number. E.g. I wanted 24.1, but I'm also getting 24.2 and 24.3, etc. I don't completely understand what the .2, .3, etc are there for, or what that means, but the programming on those is not the same, so as a bonus, I'm definitely getting more channels than I was expecting.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Good deal Zindar. There is your problem. Mystery solved!


If I were you though, I would take that antenna back (as you said you were still getting some pixelation over a 30 second trial on one or more stations.


And go to radio Shack and get the Radio Shack 1874 Budget Rabbit Ears and Loop.....even that is a much better antenna than the Philips you now have. The original Philips you had was better than that one you now have. The RS 1874 is the best of its kind....and a classic that works.


Also, if you have 50 ft of coax between the antenna and your TV, it would help if you could shorten that down to a minimum. You dont want 25 ft of coax coiled behind your TV......it does weird things to the signal and also just the length gives signal losses through resistance. The shorter the better....but you can run it around the wall, you dont have to run it right across the floor and put a rug over it.


Good Luck.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Zindar* /forum/post/16820484
> 
> 
> I also notice that besides the 6 stations I wanted to get, which I now get, there are others that have the same channel number. E.g. I wanted 24.1, but I'm also getting 24.2 and 24.3, etc. I don't completely understand what the .2, .3, etc are there for, or what that means, but the programming on those is not the same, so as a bonus, I'm definitely getting more channels than I was expecting.



Those are known as subchannels. Many stations have them now. That's one of the advantages of digital over analog. DTV makes more efficient use of the bandwidth which allows stations to air multiple programs using the same amount of space that it used to take to air a single program. This technique is called multicasting.


----------



## Zindar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16820805
> 
> 
> And go to radio Shack and get the Radio Shack 1874 Budget Rabbit Ears and Loop.....even that is a much better antenna than the Philips you now have. The original Philips you had was better than that one you now have. The RS 1874 is the best of its kind....and a classic that works.



Thanks for this advice... in fact, I was planning a trip to Radio Shack (walking distance from me in fact) for a different reason today. I wonder if this model will fit between my window and blinds. In fact, this evening I was also planning a trip to Walmart which is very close to Sears, so I could get all this taken care of today if I want.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16820805
> 
> 
> Also, if you have 50 ft of coax between the antenna and your TV, it would help if you could shorten that down to a minimum.



Actually I've already done this. That's why I bought a pair of female-female coax couplers for $2.99 I have lots of short lengths of cable lying around, and and that one 50 footer, but no mediums. I made a medium using the couplers.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16821991
> 
> 
> Those are known as subchannels. Many stations have them now. That's one of the advantages of digital over analog. DTV makes more efficient use of the bandwidth which allows stations to air multiple programs using the same amount of space that it used to take to air a single program. This technique is called multicasting.



This is interesting. It seems like all the ones that have .1 are the ones I get in SD through my analog Time Warner cable. I guess to get .2 and .3 I need to use my HD antenna, or possibly subscribe to digital cable, which I'm not doing because I like the lower price of analog cable. Plus (and maybe I shouldn't mention this) for years we've been getting free analog HBO... we didn't ask for it, but it magically is just there on our cable. I tuned to it, and it's there for reasons I don't understand. My wife watches HBO a lot, so I guess we're wanting to let the sleeping baby lie rather than change our cable package.


I also notice that NBC, which is on 36.1, doesn't come with any 36.2 or 36.3, so it seems that not all the stations are employing subchannels, for some reason.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Zindar* /forum/post/16822141
> 
> 
> It seems like all the ones that have .1 are the ones I get in SD through my analog Time Warner cable. I guess to get .2 and .3 I need to use my HD antenna, or possibly subscribe to digital cable, which I'm not doing because I like the lower price of analog cable.



In most areas, even with digital cable, you don't get all of the subchannels. Most cable systems currently only support the main channel. That may change over time, but for now, you do indeed need an antenna to be able to view all available subchannels.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Zindar* /forum/post/16822141
> 
> 
> I also notice that NBC, which is on 36.1, doesn't come with any 36.2 or 36.3, so it seems that not all the stations are employing subchannels, for some reason.



No, indeed many stations do not offer subchannels. There is an ongoing debate amongst broadcasters and viewers regarding subchannels. The basic idea is that the more multicasting a station does, the worse the picture quality due to the video compression that is required. This offends the sensibilities of many videophiles. However, I believe the majority of viewers appreciate the additional choices that multicasting offers and are willing to live with the results.


----------



## Trackman

Any feedback/experience with the Cornet F-8400AR? It looks much like the RS 1880/1862. I might order one and give it a try for a spot on the other side of the house from the towers (20 miles away) where I was using a Silver Sensor but now two channels have moved to VHF. The SS pulls them in on the tower side of the house but I get zilch on the other side, thus I need a UHF/VHF. Currently I am using the crappy RS amped ears and plastic loop (forget the model # but it is the current model that tested and reviewed poorly) which works for the main channels only if the gain is on max and even then is still only around 64% for ABC.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16823237
> 
> 
> The basic idea is that the more multicasting a station does, the worse the picture quality due to the video compression that is required. This offends the sensibilities of many videophiles. However, I believe the majority of viewers appreciate the additional choices that multicasting offers and are willing to live with the results.



airing the main channel at 1080i or 720p with one sub-channel at 480p should not look bad. however, having 3 channels at 1080i is madness.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16824862
> 
> 
> airing the main channel at 1080i or 720p with one sub-channel at 480p should not look bad.



I agree, but there is always a lot of whining that goes on in my local thread whenever a new subchannel is added. Unlike some people, I've never expected perfection from OTA TV, so it has never bothered me. I mean, come on, it's free! In fact, I am usually happy to have more choices.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16824862
> 
> 
> however, having 3 channels at 1080i is madness.



Yeah, that doesn't sound like a good idea.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16825086
> 
> 
> I agree, but there is always a lot of whining that goes on in my local thread whenever a new subchannel is added.



Well, the local OTA sub-forum _is_ first and foremost, part of the whole "HDTV" forum. And traditionally, this is the place for HD enthusiasts (i.e. - people who care a lot about their HD picture quality).


What sort of TV's are you and they watching on?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

 HatTip: [email protected]
 


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Plugged In: the DTV Switch
> 
> How to screw up your DTV reception: amplifiers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This entry was posted in a blog called Plugged In: The DTV Switch by Jeff Hartman, chief engineer at WSYR-DT/Syracuse, NY, and a slew of smaller Central NY stations owned by the same chain. The guy usually makes a lot of sense, and his posts are very entertaining.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/16825220
> 
> 
> What sort of TV's are you and they watching on?



As far as I know, all are HDTV's. However, there are many users who have been around since OTA DTV began and got spoiled by having one HD channel and no subchannels. Consequently, any time a station adds a subchannel, there are a lot of complaints about reduction of HD quality. While I understand their frustration, I am always happy to have more channels from which to choose. Unlike you, I don't think that one must exclude all non-HD content in order to be an HDTV enthusiast.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Great article..




> Quote:
> Testing for DTV Interference
> 
> 
> by Charles W. Rhodes, 06.22.2009
> 
> 
> TVTechnology.com


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16825321
> 
> 
> Unlike you, I don't think that one must exclude all non-HD content in order to be an HDTV enthusiast.



You got me totally wrong. I have no problem usually with one subchannel (as long as it's 480i, unlike "Live Well").


In fact, on one channel, we have a few subs that I probably watch more then the main channel (same for many others in this market - they're basically Retro channels, that show a lot better programming than RTN - more gritty, B&W "film noir" stuff (remastered, too), and less of the corny and kiddie stuff like Bewitched, Brady Bunch, Charlie's Angels, etc. They do show some of those, too - just not only, and mostly earlier in the day). Only problem is, they're up to 5 subs for the one HD main now.


I would really like to keep a semblance of good PQ to the good ones already there. There's no reason they have to stretch the programming (overlap it and re-run it constantly) among so many channels. Of the four English-language subs (one's brand new and hasn't got any programming running yet), they could easily fit it all on no more than two. It's just pure greed.


Just use some sort of recorder and Titan TV if they don't show something at the exact moment that's best for you.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/16825392
> 
> 
> It's just pure greed.
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> they're basically Retro channels, that show a lot better programming than RTN - more gritty, B&W "film noir" stuff (remastered, too), and less of the corny and kiddie stuff like Bewitched, Brady Bunch, Charlie's Angels, etc



maybe they assume that most people don't have HDTV sets and therefore no one will notice the difference.


what are those Retro channels?


----------



## Zindar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16820805
> 
> 
> And go to radio Shack and get the Radio Shack 1874 Budget Rabbit Ears and Loop.....even that is a much better antenna than the Philips you now have. The original Philips you had was better than that one you now have. The RS 1874 is the best of its kind....and a classic that works.



I just picked one up today for less than $12 and it's delivering a great signal on all channels I've tested so far.







(including our local FOX network, which many Austinites are having trouble getting, because they're doing work on their transmission tower - but I'm getting it fine on my RS 1874.)


----------



## Lord_Zath

yeah I couldn't believe how well it worked for me... until tropo kicked in and blocked some of my major channels!


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16825750
> 
> 
> maybe they assume that most people don't have HDTV sets and therefore no one will notice the difference.
> 
> 
> what are those Retro channels?



Well, at least at the PBS station here, the engineers watch on something like 26" screens - and when people call or e-mail them to complain, they like to say things like "It looks fine to us".


The thing is, the main channels are 16:9 HD, and many watching those are definitely watching on HD sets (otherwise, what's the sense in them even showing them in 720p/1080i?). If they want to degrade the subs further to add more, that's one thing - but to degrade the main, HD channel is another. They really should have separate frequencies if they're going to do that.


The Retro channels are "MeTV", "MeToo", and an MGM movie channel with some retro programming thrown in, called "ThisTV". And they just started another sub that shows the name "ThatTV" on a still screen (







). The first two have been showing more movies lately, also. What's good is that they're mostly "B" movies, which I haven't seen before (or at least haven't seen a hundred times).


Then there's a 5th, ethnic sub. The main channel shows pro baseball and basketball, and even though they've upgraded their encoders, it's past the point where you won't see a difference when they add more subs.


Here's some info on the channel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WCIU-TV 


Some of the other major networks are using a lot of artificial edge-enhancement now, and that's mostly to cover up the diminishing resolution and PQ softening, I think (actually, I _know_, with the ABC channel here, which has the _HD_ subchannel "Live Well" - it looks like widescreen SD. There's really no good, sane reason that "Live Well" has to be in HD. And on top of it, it's a terrible subchannel, content-wise. I can't imagine many people even watch it).


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/16827348
> 
> 
> The Retro channels are "MeTV", "MeToo", and an MGM movie channel with some retro programming thrown in, called "ThisTV". And they just started another sub that shows the name "ThatTV" on a still screen (
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ).
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> Here's some info on the channel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WCIU-TV
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> There's really no good, sane reason that "Live Well" has to be in HD. And on top of it, it's a terrible subchannel, content-wise. I can't imagine many people even watch it).



I checked WCIU-TV . very nice! I'm hoping some Retro channel lands in the NYC area. and it would be great if we got more than one. even if at 480i... i don't mind. there's a station in CT (i think) that signed with the RetroTV channel, but only a miracle would allow my indoor setup to receive such station. i envy you! The sub-channels in NYC suck! it's disappointing that NBC airs NY Non Stop as a sub-channel instead of a mix of CNBC + MSNBC + local news. maybe they will in the future.


and yes! it sucks that Live Well is 1080i. I dont like it either.


----------



## dattier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16828105
> 
> 
> it sucks that Live Well is 1080i. I dont like it either.



It's in 1080i there?  It's in 720p on WLS in Chicago, and I thought all Disney-owned HD stations were in 720p.


720p for Livewell is a bad enough idea, but 1080i would be even worse.  Are you sure it's in 1080i there?


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dattier* /forum/post/16828577
> 
> 
> 720p for Livewell is a bad enough idea, but 1080i would be even worse. Are you sure it's in 1080i there?



No. not sure. it's difficult for me to get ABC here so I can't verify this now. you might be right.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dattier* /forum/post/16828577
> 
> 
> It's in 1080i there?* It's in 720p on WLS in Chicago, and I thought all Disney-owned HD stations were in 720p.
> 
> 
> 720p for Livewell is a bad enough idea, but 1080i would be even worse.* Are you sure it's in 1080i there?



Maybe 480i, but not 1080i.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dattier* /forum/post/16828577
> 
> 
> It's in 1080i there? It's in 720p on WLS in Chicago, and I thought all Disney-owned HD stations were in 720p.



my mistake.... the right answer is 720p:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post16830906


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Added AVSforum members.... Trip in VA's and Falcon 77's..... www.rabbitears.info link to the front page.


----------



## nicoge21

Does anyone know what a good antenna would be for this location.....i'm moving next month, even if I can only get the 4 yellow stations. Another one on there I might be able to get is WZMY, 15 miles away to the west. This is a 2nd floor brick apartment. I guess I should be aiming towards north/northwest for the yellow's right? The boston stations I don't think I have a chance at. This is a heavily wooded area with alot of oak trees.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Boy that is a tough situation, i would look into a 4 bay and an amp, but really you should roof mount a fringe combo antenna with a rotor!


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16835896
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what a good antenna would be for this location



What are you using now? In terms of indoor antennas, the only ones that would give you much of anything would probably be the RS UFO or the Terk HDTVa. However, even they might not cut it unless you have a window facing toward the transmitters.


You will almost certainly need an outdoor antenna to get much of anything. Also, since ABC and PBS are both VHF, you really need an antenna with some good VHF gain. In other words, a UHF-only antenna probably won't cut it.


Even with a good outdoor antenna, OTA reception of more than a few stations is going to be a challenge. You may want to consider looking into cable or satellite.


----------



## Zindar

I know next to nothing about antennas, but I thought I'd just ask the experts here, if in the situation just described (thick wooded area, with some distance to the towers) if it would be helpful to have the antenna as high as possible. Is it possible to put a long pole (like 10 or 20 feet) on top of a roof and mount the antenna on top of such a pole? Intuitively, it seems like it would render the wooded problem moot, as the antenna would now see over all the trees.


Of course, I guess it would be a magnet for lightening strikes.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is one guys install...











This thread has a whole slew of tower, chimney, side of house, and roof mounts...

Pimp My Gear! (Photos of OTA gear) @Digitalhome.ca 


But if your treeline is 200 yds away, I wouldnt worry about it, especially with such strong siganls less than 10 miles fromt the tower farm.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is another VHF High antenna, though its made for transmitting, like the Scala posted earlier in the thread.

Wade SY 42 in 3 sizes ...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

 Wade Y-103 Wideband Yagi for VHF High


----------



## Zindar

I remember the house I grew up in, which my parents purchased in 1969, had a sizable antenna, mounted higher than the chimney (on a two story house). At the time, I thought it got a pretty good picture. Once I kicked a soccer ball so high, that I accidentally hit the antenna, and bent one of the rods pretty significantly, but it seemed to still work, fortunately. I think I might never have admitted this deed to my parents.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> And thirdly, if you change out an electrical wall socket, you might detect a small voltage even when the circuit breaker is open, cuz these filter capacitors also store a small amount of DC voltage, as I found out the hard way....the Dishwasher was the culprit.....



I didnt think about that. A lot of the microwaves, dishwashers, washer/dryers etc with electronic controls do have some sizeable capacitors in them. Not enough current to kill directly, but enough to startle someone to trip, fall and break a neck, heh.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16837329
> 
> 
> Here is one guys install...
> 
> 
> But if your treeline is 200 yds away, I wouldnt worry about it...



Treeline, heck. I just hope the next closest house, car, garage or living being is at least 200 feet away.


If you're going to copy that setup, I'd suggest you put some guy wires on it, because those 4228's can be real sails.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Is it possible to put a long pole (like 10 or 20 feet) on top of a roof and mount the antenna on top of such a pole? Intuitively, it seems like it would render the wooded problem moot, as the antenna would now see over all the trees.
> 
> 
> Of course, I guess it would be a magnet for lightening strikes.



A long mast like that would require guy wiring and a thick ground wire to a grounding rod for the lightning strikes.


----------



## nicoge21




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16836863
> 
> 
> What are you using now? In terms of indoor antennas, the only ones that would give you much of anything would probably be the RS UFO or the Terk HDTVa. However, even they might not cut it unless you have a window facing toward the transmitters.
> 
> 
> You will almost certainly need an outdoor antenna to get much of anything. Also, since ABC and PBS are both VHF, you really need an antenna with some good VHF gain. In other words, a UHF-only antenna probably won't cut it.
> 
> 
> Even with a good outdoor antenna, OTA reception of more than a few stations is going to be a challenge. You may want to consider looking into cable or satellite.



I have both a balcony and a window in the directions needed. Looks to be North/north west** I guess for those 4.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

*Digitenna DUV-S Suburban* arrived today.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I also have reports on these Chinese rotor antennas....

*A-Neutronics AV-891* 



and *Cornet ET-8DA* (similar to the Terk HDTVo) coming up soon.











As well as these 2 which are on the way...


----------



## 300ohm

I would be interested in a detailed review and pictures of that rotor used.







(If its good enough quality, and they seem to be inexpensive, it may be worth it to scrap the antenna just for the rotor, heh)


Based on the pdf file picture, it doesnt look like it uses a preamp (looks like a plain pcb balun), but rather an amp at the base unit, which are generally noisy.


----------



## eljeffreynyc

Can someone please recommend antenna for my current location? I have already tried Radioshack 15-1878 and some channels didnt come up. Thanks.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have already tried Radioshack 15-1878 and some channels didnt come up. Thanks.



Which ones specifically ? You mean channels 2, 3, and 6 in the green ? For those youll need a full range vhf antenna. (or maybe not, they are pretty strong)


For the ones in the pink, youll need an outdoor antenna with rotor.


----------



## magna2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *eljeffreynyc* /forum/post/16874758
> 
> 
> Can someone please recommend antenna for my current location? I have already tried Radioshack 15-1878 and some channels didnt come up. Thanks.



eljeffreynyc,


Which channels are you not getting and what seems to be the problem with the reception? Although all the signals appear to be strong enough for an indoor antenna, you might be experiencing multi-path issues. Can really tell since you haven't provided sufficient details as to your reception problems.


----------



## eljeffreynyc

I was only getting channels 10, 11, 13 at one point I was able to get the signal strength to 50% by moving it around, I think I might just get an outdoor antenna and put it outside the window.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16856816
> 
> *Digitenna DUV-S Suburban* arrived today.



Hey EV, I realize that it's only been a few days, but I was wondering if you had any initial impressions that you could share about the DUV-S.


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *eljeffreynyc* /forum/post/16875832
> 
> 
> I was only getting channels 10, 11, 13 at one point I was able to get the signal strength to 50% by moving it around, I think I might just get an outdoor antenna and put it outside the window.



Um, I don't see a channel 10 on your TVFool?


You should be able to get your top 11 digital stations with that antenna. Heck, you should be able to get more than 3 channels with a straightened paper clip! Did you have the amplifier on or off? Maybe you should trade that 15-1878 in for a 15-1874 and some money back.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16875917
> 
> 
> Hey EV, I realize that it's only been a few days, but I was wondering if you had any initial impressions that you could share about the DUV-S.



Nice thick walled sturdy box for shipping. Only very minor assmebly required. The build quality is very high. Very compact unit. Ill try to get some posts going on it this weekend.


Here is a pic.











I tried the Digitenna *Indoor* (not the antenna shown above) very quickly in my sweet spot by the window on the lamp. Performance was pretty good, not as good a DB2 and better than a RCA ANT108 Basic RE&Loop on UHF. I also tried a Jenson TV-920 at nearly the same time and the Jensen was very dissappointing.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I was only getting channels 10, 11, 13 at one point



Channel 10 WTNH-DT ? Yes, mounting an antenna outside does a world of wonders.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I tried the Digitenna Indoor very quickly in my sweet spot by the window on the lamp.



Does the photo deceive into showing that bowtie as sideways to the way common bowties are ?


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16869473
> 
> 
> I would be interested in a detailed review and pictures of that rotor used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (If its good enough quality, and they seem to be inexpensive, it may be worth it to scrap the antenna just for the rotor, heh)
> 
> 
> Based on the pdf file picture, it doesnt look like it uses a preamp (looks like a plain pcb balun), but rather an amp at the base unit, which are generally noisy.



My review and detailed pics of the A Neutronics antenna can be found *here* . Pics of the interior electronics and rotor etc are about 2 pages further on the thread.


----------



## magna2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *eljeffreynyc* /forum/post/16875832
> 
> 
> I was only getting channels 10, 11, 13 at one point I was able to get the signal strength to 50% by moving it around, I think I might just get an outdoor antenna and put it outside the window.



Because of your close proximities to the broadcast antennnaes you have strong signals, if you are using an amplified antenna, turn off the amplification. Overloading the tv receiver with signals also causes havoc to reception. Also, being in the NYC market, you might need to utilize a more directional antenna than the UHF loop of the 15-1878 whether you plan on an indoor or outdoor antenna next. But I recommend that you try tuning down the amplification first to see if it helps before seeking another antenna.


----------



## maihacde

Please open the attachment as I could not include it in the body of this post.


I am currently using Clearstream2 antenna outdoor, pointing SW

Can anybody recommend any antenna that would allow me to pick up channel 8, 10 etc...


I now can pick up 6, 12, 15, 28, 39, 69


Thanks.

Attachment 148523


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a Terk HDTVo that has been out in the AZ sun for 2 years.



> Quote:
> Bottom Line-The antenna has been used for about 2 years and works perfectly. We are 27 miles from the HD broadcasts. The Amplifier was not used. The antenna has visible signs of wear, it has been on my roof in the AZ sun. I am selling it because we get HD through our Cable. The MAST is a Heavy Duty and from a Direct TV Sat.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16879183
> 
> 
> Does the photo deceive into showing that bowtie as sideways to the way common bowties are ?



No, its just intricately folded. Ill take more pics and review this antenna, hopefully this weekend.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> My review and detailed pics of the A Neutronics antenna can be found here. Pics of the interior electronics and rotor etc are about 2 pages further on the thread.





> Quote:
> And to top it all off, I couldnt get the rotor to work, and couldnt figure out why for the life of me...trying to troubleshoot it....after some frustration....turns out the darn remote is a dud...no power on the remote and no rotor controls on the controller unit box. More poor quality.



Its a shame you couldnt get the rotor to work. Maybe the amp isnt working either ?


Im surprised at the design of the rotor, wasnt what I expected it to be. Where are the gears and motor located on that rotor ?




> Quote:
> Here is a Terk HDTVo that has been out in the AZ sun for 2 years.



The sun bleaching the paint doesnt hurt it, just make sure the connections are clean.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I am currently using Clearstream2 antenna outdoor, pointing SW



But you dont have stations in that direction, heh. I take it youre in a valley. Aim for the top of the hills.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maihacde* /forum/post/16880764
> 
> 
> Please open the attachment as I could not include it in the body of this post.
> 
> 
> I am currently using Clearstream2 antenna outdoor, pointing SW
> 
> Can anybody recommend any antenna that would allow me to pick up channel 8, 10 etc...
> 
> 
> I now can pick up 6, 12, 15, 28, 39, 69
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Attachment 148523



C2 is correctly aimed *BETWEEN* UHF stations on Mt Miguel (132-deg) and Tijuana (172-deg),

but you might have to favor weaker T.J. stations. So SE to due South...unless you have

to pick up a stronger BOUNCE off of nearby hills....


Trilaterating your location puts you North of Adm Baker G.C., surrounded by 200-ft hills.

Despite fairly strong signal prediction, I would suggest adding a high gain Hi-VHF antenna

with good F/B Ratio to suppress multipath (and 200-ft hill may be worse than predicted):
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=YA1713 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...?PROD=Y10-7-13 

or a smaller, medium gain Hi-VHF antenna:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=YA6713 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=Y5-7-13 


You would point the Hi-VHF antenna towards 280-deg (268 magnetic),

which is nearly due West.

Combine two antennas with a low-loss UVSJ VHF/UHF Combiner:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16881414
> 
> 
> Its a shame you couldnt get the rotor to work. Maybe the amp isnt working either ?
> 
> 
> Im surprised at the design of the rotor, wasnt what I expected it to be. Where are the gears and motor located on that rotor ?



Granted this is a little different than the ones you were commenting on.


Yes, my guess is the amp isnt working....thus acting as an antennuator for the antenna.....along with all the other Chinese electronic crap in between the balun boxes and the TV tuner.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16878096
> 
> 
> Ill try to get some posts going on it this weekend.



Thanks for the update. When you do your testing with the other DigiTenna antennas, please be sure to test out the VHF performance as well as UHF. If I remember correctly, you have one VHF station. I know that's not much to go on, but it's better than nothing. The fact that these antennas are so small and are supposed to perform well for both UHF and VHF makes them very attractive. It will be nice to see if reality lives up to the hype.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16879266
> 
> 
> My review and detailed pics of the A Neutronics antenna can be found *here* . Pics of the interior electronics and rotor etc are about 2 pages further on the thread.



Too bad. Sounds like this had the potential to be a pretty great antenna if they had just been willing to use slightly higher quality components. Did I understand correctly that you actually had to strip off part of the coax to attach it to the antenna? That's pathetic!







Not to mention all of the other bugaboos that you found. Yikes!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

MaxView OmniSat Omni UHF/VHF antenna spotted...


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> MaxView OmniSat Omni UHF/VHF antenna spotted...



Interesting, like a double bi-quad wifi antenna with the second pair of quads 180 degrees from the first. A double bi-quad wifi, all quads in the same direction, has about 13 to 14 dbi gain, so that pictured above may have the potential of about 10 dbi in four directions.


----------



## Cbl12886

How does the Winegard HD-1080 compare to the Channel Master CM2016? A Solid Signal rep recommended the Winegard when I filled out their antenna selector form. I need to purchase the antenna and grounding stuff this weekend so I can get it up an running during the week.

TV Fool


----------



## nordloewelabs

*@ Cbl12886 *:


post your TVFool data so that people can have an idea of the channels available in your area and how their signals reach you. make sure you state which channels you care about and which ones you dont, otherwise people will recommend something that might not meet your needs.


the data produced by TVFool is very important if you want people to give you good advice.


----------



## Cbl12886

Also is this the right setup if I decide to use an amplifier and 2-Way splitter?


Antenna > Amp > Grounding Block > 2-Way Splitter > Living Room Power Injector then TV > Bedroom straight to TV


And where is the best place to get the weather boots to protect the RG6 cables? I cannot find them on Solid Signal or Monoprice. I think they are called something different.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Hey there again Cbl2886.


That looks like a great setup. The VHF section of the HD1080 is relatively poor given its 2 long VHF elements....apparently the design poorly integrates them.


Go with the Winegard HD 269 amp.


Dont know about the weather boots.


I know you know about the RCA ANT751.....but just to throw something out there.....the CM 3016 is better on VHF than the 2016 and not that much larger....or that much more expensive.











The 3016 will be good for VHF Low if it ever shows up around your area, and its great for FM too.


----------



## maihacde




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16881553
> 
> 
> C2 is correctly aimed *BETWEEN* UHF stations on Mt Miguel (132-deg) and Tijuana (172-deg),
> 
> but you might have to favor weaker T.J. stations. So SE to due South...unless you have
> 
> to pick up a stronger BOUNCE off of nearby hills....
> 
> 
> Trilaterating your location puts you North of Adm Baker G.C., surrounded by 200-ft hills.
> 
> Despite fairly strong signal prediction, I would suggest adding a high gain Hi-VHF antenna
> 
> with good F/B Ratio to suppress multipath (and 200-ft hill may be worse than predicted):
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=YA1713
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...?PROD=Y10-7-13
> 
> or a smaller, medium gain Hi-VHF antenna:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=YA6713
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=Y5-7-13
> 
> 
> You would point the Hi-VHF antenna towards 280-deg (268 magnetic),
> 
> which is nearly due West.
> 
> Combine two antennas with a low-loss UVSJ VHF/UHF Combiner:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ



Holl_ands,

Correction, my C2 is pointing SE vice SW.

I found that you are from San Diego also. Great city.


I would certainly try your recommendations. I really like to get 8 and 10.

With the current set up, sometimes during the day (mid to early afternoon)

I can get channels 2, 4 and 5 from LA.


Thanks for your help.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maihacde* /forum/post/16889323
> 
> 
> Holl_ands,
> 
> Correction, my C2 is pointing SE vice SW.
> 
> I found that you are from San Diego also. Great city.
> 
> 
> I would certainly try your recommendations. I really like to get 8 and 10.
> 
> With the current set up, sometimes during the day (mid to early afternoon)
> 
> I can get channels 2, 4 and 5 from LA.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help.



Keep in mind that channels 8 & 10 broadcast from a facility over near La Jolla while the rest of the SD locals (exc Tij-based ones) broadcast from El Cajon. Therefore, those two signals are coming in from an almost right angel and do not intercept any elements of the reflector, loop, or the feed-line in the proper axis that would cause an induced voltage.



Here's a little test that you can do with your C2 that might help with high-VHF reception:


Since the C2's high-VHF reception capability primarily relies on feed-line radiation (instead of a resonant element), it's 7-13 reception can be manipulated by simply manipulating the coax feed-line. I performed an experiment several weeks ago with a very weak and distant (almost 70 miles) channel 8 signal and a C2. By forming an 8-10 inch loop of the coax coming straight out the back (as best as you can with the rear base in the way) and returning it to the mast at the base of the reflector, I was able to see a dramatic difference in the signal on my SA. With the cable installed in a "typical" configuration (out the back and straight down the mast behind the reflector), there was pretty much ZERO signal. When I created the loop, I saw a signal pop up that was between 10 and 15 dBmv and was almost flat across the top. It would have been easily recovered with a decent pre-amp.


Try this:


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That is great ProjectSH. Throw a loop about 24" in diameter into the coax line. Good thinking.


----------



## 300ohm

But its a little hard to keep that finger there forever, heh.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Heh! It was hard enough to hold that thing in one hand (I was supporting the mast which was resting on the trunk of my car) and take the photo with my cell phone. I didn't take the opportunity to experiment with much else that day.


The loop is closer to 9-10 inches in diameter. The camera angle makes if look different.


I'll probably play with it some more tomorrow morning and see how reproducible my previous experiment might be.


Might play with a C1 & a C4 while I'm at it since I can get my hands on those, also.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cbl12886* /forum/post/16888902
> 
> 
> How does the Winegard HD-1080 compare to the Channel Master CM2016? A Solid Signal rep recommended the Winegard when I filled out their antenna selector form. I need to purchase the antenna and grounding stuff this weekend so I can get it up an running during the week.
> 
> TV Fool



the only Hi-VHF channel in your area is WESH (NBC) broadcasting on RF-11. if you dont watch NBC much you can go with a UHF-only antenna (channels 14 thru 51) like the *DB2* -- or maybe a *HD-1080*, which does VHF poorly. both are very small. the *DB4* is even better than the DB2 and still small enough to be used indoors. some people are able to get Hi-VHF channels with a DB4, so it *might* be enough for you to get NBC-11, since you are on LOS (line of sight).


if receiving NBC-11 well is paramount, you need to be more forgiving when it comes to antenna size. the *CM2016* and the *RCA ANT751* are better bets. the the latter would *probably* give you better results on NBC-11. it seems that the user *holl_ands* is currently working on determining its specs. stay tuned.


if you want to be sure you will not have to return anything, plus you also want to receive some stations on TVFool's "grey" area, get something about 60" long like the *HD-7694P* or the *HBU-22* which are designed specifically for channels 7 thru 51 and have better gains. the HD-7694P is the one i've ordered for myself.... it's a bit better than the HBU-22.


if you can place your antenna outdoors or on a balcony, you should definitely go with one of the latter 2 antennas! maybe you should order a small antenna and a big one just in case. this way, if the small one doesnt work out, you know you need to cave in to eye-sore.


good luck!


----------



## Cbl12886

Well, here is what I just ordered. Ill let you know how well it works at the end of the week when it arrives. I will be getting an amplifier if it doesn't preform as well as I want.


Copper Grounding Rod (4 ft) | Qty: 1

Single Grounding Block - One RG-6 Cable | Qty: 1

Eagle Aspen P-1000-2AP-GX 2-Way Splitter (P-1000-2AP-GX) | Qty: 1

RCA ANT751 1080 HDTV Outdoor Antenna (ANT751) | Qty: 1


----------



## farmer_joe

Wow, incredible review - thanks for the information mate!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Copper Grounding Rod (4 ft) | Qty: 1



Thats a relatively heavy item to ship. You probably could have gotten an 8 ft copper clad grounding rod at your local Home Depot or Lowes electrical section for $10, which is probably less than the item plus shipping cost.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

CBl, You will need some RG6 cable as well. One length to go from your antenna to your grounding block. Then another from your grounding block to the splitter. Then 2 more cable lengths to go from the splitter to the respective TVs/tuner boxes.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *farmer_joe* /forum/post/16892757
> 
> 
> Wow, incredible review - thanks for the information mate!



Your welcome. Thanks for the thanks. Its good to know that people find it useful.


----------



## Cbl12886




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16892980
> 
> 
> CBl, You will need some RG6 cable as well. One length to go from your antenna to your grounding block. Then another from your grounding block to the splitter. Then 2 more cable lengths to go from the splitter to the respective TVs/tuner boxes.



Yeah, I know, thats what monoprice is for.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16892927
> 
> 
> Thats a relatively heavy item to ship. You probably could have gotten an 8 ft copper clad grounding rod at your local Home Depot or Lowes electrical section for $10, which is probably less than the item plus shipping cost.



Shipping was only $10.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cbl12886* /forum/post/16893124
> 
> 
> Yeah, I know, thats what monoprice is for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shipping was only $10.



Total ? Thats not bad.


----------



## Cbl12886




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16893312
> 
> 
> Total ? Thats not bad.



Copper Grounding Rod (4 ft) $ 5.99

Single Grounding Block - One RG-6 Cable $ 1.99

Eagle Aspen 2-Way Splitter $ 0.59

RCA ANT751 Antenna $ 49.99

Sub Total: $ 58.56

Shipping: $ 10.95

Order Total: $ 69.51


----------



## nordloewelabs

*@Cbl12886*


so are you gonna place your ANT751 indoors or outdoors?


----------



## Cbl12886

Outdoors mounted on the top of a lamp post in my backyard. It is only about 12' high.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cbl12886* /forum/post/16895337
> 
> 
> Outdoors mounted on the top of a lamp post in my backyard. It is only about 12' high.



For future reference, this thread is reserved for the discussion of indoor antenna solutions. It's a bit confusing since a good deal of outdoor antenna discussion has been going on lately. However, the following thread is where outdoor antenna discussions normally take place.

The Official AVS Antenna Topic!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think its more of a small antenna solution thread.....with mounting options on balconies, patios, outside of windows, etc. Its evolving.


That being said....yes Im nearly ready to review the Digitennas!


----------



## yarroger

I am thinking about getting a db2 or clearstream2. I live in Toronto, Canada and we still have some stations above channel 51. I'm wondering if the clearstream2 will be fine picking up channels above 51 as the antenna direct website saids designed for reception on core UHF DTV (ch 14-51). Otherwise I will just get a db2. I live near the cn tower, its about 10 minute walk away and can see it from my window. I currently have a Philips phdtv3 and its finicky as hell, I have to constantly reposition it for different channels gets annoying.


----------



## nordloewelabs

if you dont want to move the antenna, you need a less directional one. the SmarTenna might work for you. alternatively, you try the RadioShack UFO, which has a rotor built-in for the UHF element.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *yarroger* /forum/post/16897065
> 
> 
> I am thinking about getting a db2 or clearstream2. I live in Toronto, Canada and we still have some stations above channel 51. I'm wondering if the clearstream2 will be fine picking up channels above 51 as the antenna direct website saids designed for reception on core UHF DTV (ch 14-51). Otherwise I will just get a db2.



It kind of depends on your budget and desired gain. The C2 is about twice the price, but according to these comparison charts, it has about 3-4 db more gain than the DB2. Depending on how close you are to your desired stations, you may or may not need that.


The C2 claims to work for VHF high, but I wouldn't rely on that since many people have had no luck using it for VHF. Although, the earlier post by ProjectSHO89 gives some hope.


The C2 gain falls off around channel 68, while the DB2 doesn't fall off until around channel 77.


If cost is not an issue, I would probably go with the C2.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

If you live that close to at least one television broadcast tower, that amplifier in your PHDTV3 Amplified Silver Sensor is probably your biggest problem.


Posting a TVfool would help, but I know of a fellow that gets VHF High on his DB2 and he is very close = 8 miles to the tower cluster.


Its likely that you have towers in different directions if you are that close to one of them.


Im going with the Radio Shack Budget 1874 unamplified basic Rabbit Ear & Loop as a recommendation....on limited information. Its likely that either the DB2 or the C2 would work as well. I would go with teh Eagle Aspen DTV2BUHF (DB2 clone and that is a trustworthy long standing seller) for 2 reasons, one being price, but also it is only 1 db down from the C2 on the lower UHF band and its significantly better at the upper UHF band and it just so happens that cable run loses correlate to frequency, with the higher frequencies being attenuated much more than lower frequencies. Thus making the DB2 a better choice in general....but specifically if you have channels up past 50 in the UHF band and or dont have difficulty with lower band UHF channels you are trying to solve. On the other hand, the C2 has a wider beamwidth and that may be advantageous in your situation.


Post you TVfool for better analysis.


From the HDTVprimer website ....












> Quote:
> Beam widths (to the -3 dB points, for channel 30):
> 
> 
> ClearStream 2 72º
> 
> Silver Sensor 64º
> 
> DB2 56º
> 
> CM4221 55º


----------



## yarroger

I have attached my tv fool results, don't have enough posts for a link.


Thanks!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Wow! You are right on top of the towers. The amplifier in the PHDTV3 is definitely overloading your tuner and being overloaded itself!


Radio Shack 1874 or another simple basic NON AMPLIFIED Rabbit Ear and loop should do you well.....barring any problems with building materials (like brick, concrete, metal siding, etc). If it doesnt work satisfactorally, you know you have building material problems....put the antenna in the window and that should solve them.


PS the DB2 would work too, and probably pick up your VHF High channels as well, you are so close to the towers.


----------



## yarroger

Well there are these buffalo/Rochester stations across the lake I would like to get. I get a couple sometimes like pbs and cw if i fiddle. They are about 48 miles away according to those tv fool results. Thats why i was hoping something bigger might help get those more consistently and without having to move my antenna around my apartment.


Your probably right about it being overloaded, I figure i should be getting all the local stations no problem, but i have to constantly adjust the stupid antenna it seems.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Try the DB2 (or its clone) or the Terk HDTVi or move up to the DB4, you cant use an amplifier, that is just the way it is. That is your choice, if you are trying to get Buffalo from Toronto that near the Toronto towers. Go big or try the DB2 or HDTVi. The DB4 is the smallest of the 4 bay bowtie antennas.


----------



## arxaw

*DB2 clone*


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Terks version of the RCA ANT1500/1550 ANT1400/1450 ANT1600/1650?


Terk FDTV1A Flat Digital Omni Directional Amplified Indoor Antenna 














> Quote:
> Product Dimensions: 1.2 x 11.2 x 11.7 inches ; 3 pounds
> 
> 
> TERK digital flat indoor antenna has a patented reception technology that outperforms traditional antennas. 360 degree reception pattern eliminates the need for constant adjustments. The removeable Extremely Low Noise (ELN) amplifier provides maximum flexibility and performance and gives you outstanding digital TV reception without saturating the signal. its high-gain design picks up further stations. This antenna is optimized for HDTV reception and has a flat profile designed to blend in with today's high-end HDTV systems. Comes with a 3 way mounting bracket so it can hang, stand up, or lay flat. Has 1 year limited warranty.


 TERK FDTV2A Omni Directional Amplified Flat Digital HDTV Antenna 












> Quote:
> Product Dimensions: 2.5 x 9 x 9.8 inches ; 1.6 pounds
> 
> 
> TERK FDTV2A flat amplified digital indoor TV antenna takes antenna design to the next level. Comes in acrylic gloss black with chrome accents to match today's high quality digital flat panel displays. Patented reception technology in a multi-directional 360 degree design outperforms traditional antennas. Gives superior UHF and VHF reception while being optimized for HDTV reception. An ultra low noise amplifier with multiple filtering chip sets provides a clear amplified signal. This antenna exceeds the new CEA-2032-A Section 3.2.1 standard for amplification of digital signals. Multiple easy mounting options include wall mount, flat stand and vertical stand. Has 1 year limited warranty.


----------



## holl_ands

Terk, RCA, Jensen, Advent, Acoustic Research, et. al. are all brand names

bought up by Audiovox:
http://www2.audiovox.com/corporate/welcome.do 


And, of course, an omni-directional antenna has low gain (so not for distant

reception) and picks up multipath (and stations) from all directions.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Best description of an omni that I've heard is "receives equally poorly in all directions..."


----------



## maihacde




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16889753
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that channels 8 & 10 broadcast from a facility over near La Jolla while the rest of the SD locals (exc Tij-based ones) broadcast from El Cajon. Therefore, those two signals are coming in from an almost right angel and do not intercept any elements of the reflector, loop, or the feed-line in the proper axis that would cause an induced voltage.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little test that you can do with your C2 that might help with high-VHF reception:
> 
> 
> Since the C2's high-VHF reception capability primarily relies on feed-line radiation (instead of a resonant element), it's 7-13 reception can be manipulated by simply manipulating the coax feed-line. I performed an experiment several weeks ago with a very weak and distant (almost 70 miles) channel 8 signal and a C2. By forming an 8-10 inch loop of the coax coming straight out the back (as best as you can with the rear base in the way) and returning it to the mast at the base of the reflector, I was able to see a dramatic difference in the signal on my SA. With the cable installed in a "typical" configuration (out the back and straight down the mast behind the reflector), there was pretty much ZERO signal. When I created the loop, I saw a signal pop up that was between 10 and 15 dBmv and was almost flat across the top. It would have been easily recovered with a decent pre-amp.
> 
> 
> Try this:



ProjectSHO89,

Appreciate your help. I did the best I could as per your recommendation (see attached photo)

Unfortunately, nothing gained from it.

I still cannot get channel 8 and 10 from the West of my location.

Comments solicited.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

yarroger, if youre still around, I was doing some reading and it seems a lot of Canadians in Missaugua (sp) near Toronto are using Channel Master 4221HDs to pick up Toronto and Buffalo.


There is a great Canadian forum where you might get some better local information and advice on your particular situation.


digitalhome.ca


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maihacde* /forum/post/16905487
> 
> 
> ...I did the best I could...
> 
> 
> I still cannot get channel 8 and 10 from the West of my location.
> 
> Comments solicited.



Get a real VHF antenna.


----------



## yarroger




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16905897
> 
> 
> yarroger, if youre still around, I was doing some reading and it seems a lot of Canadians in Missaugua (sp) near Toronto are using Channel Master 4221HDs to pick up Toronto and Buffalo.
> 
> 
> There is a great Canadian forum where you might get some better local information and advice on your particular situation.
> 
> 
> digitalhome.ca



Yeah a guy at work is using a Channel Master 4221, I found out today. He gets the buffalo stations, he has an amplifier also but it didn't help him any. So I picked up a C2 for a decent price from a local retailer today. I'm really happy with it, I got a lot of buffalo stations, 7 new ones plus the few i was kinda picking up already. Its also picking up all my local stations perfectly. Its actually a lot smaller then I thought. I probably could have stuck a CH 4221 or DB4 in my window and I wouldn't have minded.

Its currently just sitting on the floor propped up against my balcony window behind my blinds and working great, had it mounted higher on some suction hooks but didn't trust them so took it down.


----------



## nicoge21




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16836633
> 
> 
> Boy that is a tough situation, i would look into a 4 bay and an amp, but really you should roof mount a fringe combo antenna with a rotor!



Would a Channel Master 4221HD be suitable? I have good elevation here. It's mainly trees that are in the way. I could probably try adding some homemade dipoles to it for a shot at WMUR, but even if it doesn't come in at all that's fine with me. I'd like to at least get something.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

What is your TVfool again?


----------



## nicoge21












I'm mainly interested in the north stations since it doesn't look like I'll have much luck with stuff from the south. WZMY is towards the west.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

You cant add homemade dipoles to the CM 4221 because it has a custom low noise balun at the feedpoint. You could add aluminum tubes through the reflector though at about 32" long.


Are you limited for space?


----------



## nicoge21

yeah, or maybe I could use one of those combiners and add some VHF rabbit ears to it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That sounds like a plan. Maybe get an amplifier like the Motorola BDA-S1.


----------



## nicoge21

I'm pretty sure I'll need an amplifier for it. Not a pre-amp but an amplifier.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Preliminary results with the Digitenna Suburban are very positive. I have it on the roof now, and its beating the RCA ANT751 handily.....with much fewer breakups. However I did get some breakups on RC 7, 16, and 47.... during a heavy rain. Looks like a great Suburban antenna!


This is with 50ft cheap quad shield RG6 and a Channel Master 7777 amplifier to the Vizio GV42LF.


----------



## JChin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by JChin
> 
> I enter my info on TVFool and looking for an indoor antenna or maybe to place in the attic. Can you suggest a good indoor antenna for my location. I was thinking of getting the HDA-5700 from monoprice but don't know if its any good. TIA





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity
> 
> J Chin, sorry I missed your post.
> 
> 
> The Monoprice antenna would probably be pretty good, but you may not get CBS channel 11 and ABC channel 8.



I want to thank Escapevelocity and others that responded to my post. I'm giving an update on my quest to getting an antenna. As mention I was going with the monoprice antenna and wanted other suggestion if the mono didn't work.

Well I gave mono antenna a try and only received 20 channels without channel 8 and 11. This was mounted indoor with and without the power adaptor that came with the unit. So I decided to mount it outdoor without the power adaptor and it only received about 30 channels (and still didn't get channel 8 and 11). Now when I added the power adaptor it received 50 channels including channel 8 and 11 (all signal was strong).

I'm very happy and just want to say thank you for all the information.


----------



## SeattleDesi

please help me choose the right vhf+uhf *outdoor* antenna..


ive gone through a conventional radioshack indoor antenna, Philips MANT510, and now a Winegard SS-3000. None of them give me all the channels when positioned inside my home, near a window facing the transmitters. The SS-3000 is atleast picking up VHF.. the MANT510 couldnt even do that.


Depending on height of the antenna, i either get solid UHF or solid VHF with my indoor SS3000. I finally managed to test my SS-3000 on my patio, and i was able to get much better results, leading me to believe an outdoor antenna is my only hope... i probably have too much indoor interference.


I have very tall trees between my home and the transmitters.. 30 feet away.. so interference is probably high. My patio is 20 feet off the ground.


Any suggestions for an easy to install outdoor antenna that will get me atleast channels 4,5,7,9,11,13,16, and 22. Channels 9 - 13 are VHF, everything else is UHF.


I would like to avoid any roof installs of boom antennas..


My TVFool info attached.


EV, i'm considering either the Radioshack DA-5200 or the Winegard Sensar GS-2200.. have you reviewed the GS-2200?


----------



## Doc Sief




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16709807
> 
> 
> Im not saying its a bogus company, its complicated.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, the RCA ANT751 is well made and a pretty good antenna. Post your TVfool, and I can give you recs and let you know if the RCA ANT751 is satisfactory for your needs.



I remember the EZ HD Antenna was $27 before RCA bought out their production, but I see the AntennaCraft AC9 is still an affordable $19...but is it a good antenna


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Good price for that antenna!


The Winegard 7000R will probably do you well, like the AC-9, AC-13 in place of an EZ HD or RCA ANT751. But if you are considering those, I would also consider the Channel Master 3016.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Seatle Desi,


Funny the Philips MANT510 should have done better than teh SS3000 on VHF HI....which you have a lot of. Given your TVfool, you can also use and benefit from an amplifier (especially if you are limited to indoors or small patio antennas).


All your stations are in the yellow and upper green and face the West (South-West) at about 260 degrees, 245 magnetic.


So do you still have the MANT510? If so pull out the Rabbit Ear VHF dipoles and then slide them back in leaving the fattest telescoping parts out to about 12 to 16 inches per side.....then lay them horizontal in the plane of the flat panel UHF element. Turn the amp up to about 3/4's of the way. Then aim the antenna perpendicular to and in the direction of the towers in the window.


What is your residence made of? Is it relatively new construction?


Assuming you dont have building material problems until you get back to me on those questions.


Then for indoor solutions, I would recommend the RS-1892 UFO or the Terk HDTVa (use the Rabbit Earts in a similar configuration as explained above on both). The Terk may give you better results with its tighter beamwidth...but its hard to tell....so trial and error is in order (as you have already been doing).


Now if you want to go outside, VHF Hi is a high priority, so fussing about with UHF only antennas and trying to finagle VHF High reception out of them isnt the way to go.


These are good small UHF/VHF antennas that give you some directionality and good gain on VHF Hi.


RCA ANT751/Denny's EZ HD

Digetenna Suburban

Channel Master 3016 (and specifically not the 2016)


The Digitenna Suburban is the smallest of those, and quite the performer, in my early assessments its beating the RCA ANT751 in performance and its quite a bit smaller than the RCA ANT751.


So my top recommendation for a small VHF/UHF antenna solution for your patio is the Digitenna Suburban....specifically because you need small and good performance on VHF High as well as UHF. I would combine that with a Winegard 269 amplifier and also

an FM Trap....or better yet the Winegard CA 8800 FM Band Seperator...which acts as a trap as well with its filters and has low loss specs. Mount the FM Trap before the amplifier....like this Antenna>FM Trap>Amplifier>Tuner/TV/Box. The Winegard is not built to be water resistant, however you can probably afford to get inside first before the Trap>Amplifier.


You could also try the Winegard FM Band Seperator (or an FM Trap) with your SS3000 (or the Philips MANT510, RS 1892 UFO, Terk HDTVa). The Philips I know does not have an integrated FM Trap, youll have to check on the RS 1892 UFO and the Terk HDTVa). You cant get in front of the amplifiers this way, but it should help. My guess is you have loads of high power FM in Seattle nearby....and 2nd order harmonics on powerful FM stations land squrely in the VHF High band causing interference....amplifying these will worsen the situation. What TV or Converter Box or ATSC tuner are you using?


Nothing more to say, until you respond to the questions and suggestions. Check your FMfool and post it, as well.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for the feedback JChin, glad you found success!


----------



## SeattleDesi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16923635
> 
> 
> Seatle Desi,
> 
> 
> So do you still have the MANT510? If so pull out the Rabbit Ear VHF dipoles and then slide them back in leaving the fattest telescoping parts out to about 12 to 16 inches per side.....then lay them horizontal in the plane of the flat panel UHF element. Turn the amp up to about 3/4's of the way. Then aim the antenna perpendicular to and in the direction of the towers in the window.



tried that many times.. i think the mant510 sucks. Maybe i have too much interference inside my home for it to pick up a signal.



> Quote:
> What is your residence made of? Is it relatively new construction?



typical cookie-cutter townhome.. wood/plaster/vinyl sidings.



> Quote:
> Then for indoor solutions, I would recommend the RS-1892 UFO or the Terk HDTVa ..



tried the UFO inside.. doesnt work very well. Same VHF / UHF issues.



> Quote:
> Now if you want to go outside, VHF Hi is a high priority, so fussing about with UHF only antennas and trying to finagle VHF High reception out of them isnt the way to go.



isnt the Radioshack DA-5200 or Winegard Sensar GS-2200 uhf+vhf outdoor antennas... their specs seem to suggest so.. dont you recommend them anymore.. i saw it on your favorites list on the first post.. i will definitely check out your other recommendations.. trouble is i'm more inclined to buy an antenna that is locally purchased from a brick/mortal retail store.. so if it doesn't work, i can atleast return it.. online purchases are a pain to return.




> Quote:
> Nothing more to say, until you respond to the questions and suggestions. Check your FMfool and post it, as well.



attached..


Really appreciate the long post EV! Keep up the great work.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

While I understand your intense desire to have a small or flat form factor. VHF High and FM interference is what it is.


The DA-5200, I do like. However its not appropriate for your situation, namely VHF High up and down the dial and FM Interference up and down the dial.


Thinking a bit further and seeing your FMFool, which is definitely showing strength of signal in the same direction as the TV signals at levels that will overload your amplifier and cause havoc there on top of 2nd order distortion troubles.


You need an FM Trap and longer elements and higher gain, for VHF Hi stability.


RCA ANT751 may be better than the Digitenna Suburban in VHF gain....and it is available locally at Walmart. Get that an FM Trap (or rather the higher quality Winegard CA 8800), and the Winegard 269 low noise, high overload hurdle amplifier, out on the patio facing the direction of the towers.....and I bet you will be doing quite well at a reasonably small size.


----------



## nicoge21

Hey escapevelocity, we moved in today, (using neighbors wireless for now) I tried the box and the RCA ANT111 uhf loop/dipole antenna I had and I was able to get the following channels at 60%-80%


WMUR - (VHF 9)

WENH (VHF 11) x3

WUNI - (UHF 29) x2

WNEU - (UHF 34)


I can also get WZMY but I have to put the antenna in a certain place and all the other channels dissapear. Just as the TVfool predicted, I am unable to get any of the boston stations, at least with an indoor antenna. I think I should get a Terk HDTVa with the amp, instead of the CM4221, because it's uhf only and there are VHF's up here. I'm suprised at how good reception I'm getting. We're on the 2nd floor and I have the dipoles pointed north slanted.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Sounds like a good plan.


----------



## nicoge21

I'm not sure if the Cm4221 would pick up the VHF channels at all.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Rabbit Ears are definitely better than teh CM 4221HD on VHF High.


----------



## JPowers

I keep looking for a deal on a RS 1880, but prices on Ebay are so erratic! Some idiot just paid $143 shipped for a used one! It's getting out of hand.


----------



## SeattleDesi

ev, i'm not sure i understand the significance of an fm trap.. because if the fm frequency was affecting me, then it would affect pretty much everyone in seattle as all tv-towers and radio stations are concentrated in downtown, and no default out-of-the-box antenna solution would work for anyone.


I think my problem is multipath interference with all the trees, and it becomes worse inside my home.


Here's an interesting observation.. while playing with my ss-3000 in the patio, i observed that vhf sucked (20%) when pointing to the transmitters.. as soon as i turn the antenna a 180 degrees, which points the ss-3000's front array to the patio walls, my vhf is 80%+. I get almost every published channel in tvfool in a 20 mile radius.. and atleast the main ones i want.


The same reverse pointing, in the same direction inside the house, has no effect..


so i guess i'm suffering from multipath and signal loss, and i'll need to use an outdoor antenna (cant keep the ss-3000 outside.. isnt weather proofed or fixable) that picks up the bounced signal from my patio walls.


----------



## deltaguy

SeattleDesi,


While you're playing around with the SS-3000, give it a try without its reflector attached. It's not designed for low VHF. It has an FM trap. The correct aim, as you've already surmised, is the direction that works. FM is important, but you've got to know about harmonica, or something like that. Good Luck.


----------



## SeattleDesi

im trying to get vhf-hi with the ss-3000 inside the home.. even with the reflector removed, no cigar.


----------



## spokybob




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SeattleDesi* /forum/post/16923946
> 
> 
> i think the mant510 sucks.



I agree. I loaned my 510 to a guy who lives on 3rd floor apartment. WHBF RF4 still won't lock in. CBS football starts soon. I tried a folded dipole cut for rf4 also. Still no luck on an indoor antenna for VHF-LO at 28 miles out.

Bob Aledo IL


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Seattle Desi, Deltaguy is onto something, point the antenna the way it works.


My guess is that you have low E windows, the plaster is on a chicken wire substrate, or you have aluminum backed insulation or vapor barrier. Building materials are killing you inside.


You may also be suffering from multipath issues. Your TVfool could be misleading.


Keep working at it. You will find a solution eventually.


----------



## SeattleDesi

yeah its definitely building materials, trees, and multipath causing grief indoors. I managed to somehow test the mant510 outside, and it picked up channel 9.. but not strongly, only 40%.. but better than zero inside.


I went to my local RS and picked up the da-5200. Performance indoors is sucky here too.. outdoors, if positioned high enough, it appears to pull in vhf. So looks like the omnidirectional uhf panel has some vhf-hi gain. I might try the MANT940 next.. its cheaper if I go this route.


Walmart ran out of the rca uhf/vhf antenna.. also walmart prices are very high compared to online prices for the same antenna. Also, looks like i'll need an amplifier, so that will add to the cost.


I seem to have overlooked Sears as a possible option. EV, do you see any good uhf+vhf antennas in this list, preferably under $70.

Code:


Code:


http://www.sears.com/shc/s/s_10153_12605_Computers+%26+Electronics_Televisions_Accessories?keyword=antenna&sLevel=2#viewItems=40&pageNum=1&sortOption=PRICE_LOW_TO_HIGH

Any opinions on flat coax ribbons to pass the coax through my window? do they affect signal loss? any recommendations where it can be shipped for cheap? RS wanted $8!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seattledesi* /forum/post/16942918
> 
> 
> do you see any good uhf+vhf antennas in this list, preferably under $70.



ant3020x


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah, the RCA ANT3020x is a good one. Its very similar to the Channel Master 3016.


There are other good antennas on that page, but you are looking for a smallish one. Please note, your local Sears is unlikely to have any outdoor antennas in stock. Though you can ship to store for free, I believe.


Home Depot online has a great selection of antennas. They can be shipped to store for pickup for free, I believe, as well.


----------



## SeattleDesi

home depot return policy.. pretty bad.. online purchases cannot be returned to store.. have to be shipped back, and you pay for shipping costs.


More updates on my outdoor antenna adventure.. i bought a stiff plastic pvc pipe from home depot to use as an antenna mast.. i erected the DA-5200 10 feet high into the air, from my patio.. effectively 30 feet off the ground. Zero improvement.. infact, i would say it became worse as it neared the roof.. probably all the bounce off the roof.


MANT940... what a waste.. couldnt pick up anything properly..


My ss-3000 shines comparitively.. as noted, i can atleast pick up vhf and uhf at certain positions.. only if i could weatherproof it..


should i invest more time into getting the rca antennas? is there hope considering my environment, ie surrounded by tall trees? what are the gain values on the rca ant751 and 3020x? Higher than my amplified ss-3000?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

When you are tired of cute, and are too the point that you would just like to watch TV, then the RCA options are for you. Dont forget the Winegrd 269 amp and CA 8800 FM Band Seperator. The Channel Master 3016 and the RCA ANT3020x are very similar but the CM is more widely available.


It looks like the FM Trap in the SS 3000 is doing positive things for you.


----------



## SeattleDesi

ok i'm going to try the rca ant751 next.. i'm hoping its default out-of-the-box unamplified performance is good enough.. though i think i read its channel 13 performance on vhf is not so good.. could you confirm? How well does it do in non-line of sight situations like mine?


EV, no one sells the amp and filter locally.. i really cant sink money on online purchases.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Its ch. 13 is fine. The computer modeling is off I think, and shows a dip, where there isnt one.


I think the 751 will work good for you. However I think you should at minimum track down a cheap FM Trap, locally. Radio Shack may have one. What tuner are you using or model of TV or Converter Box? Tuner ability to handle high signal strength FM signals without overloading is variable from tuner to tuner.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16956215
> 
> 
> Its ch. 13 is fine. The computer modeling is off I think, and shows a dip, where there isnt one.
> 
> 
> I think the 751 will work good for you. However I think you should at minimum track down a cheap FM Trap, locally. Radio Shack may have one. What tuner are you using or model of TV or Converter Box? Tuner ability to handle high signal strength FM signals without overloading is variable from tuner to tuner.



Sadly, if you want to buy a Radio Shack FM trap, you have to shop on Ebay as the stores no longer carry it (or much else that is useful).


Instead of renaming it the "Shack", they should have gone with "Outhouse". Both have much the same thing inside...


----------



## SeattleDesi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16956215
> 
> 
> What tuner are you using or model of TV or Converter Box?



Panasonic Plasma 42''.. built-in tuner.


----------



## deltaguy

SeattleDesi,


If you tried the Mant 510 with its 6' cable between antenna and tv, it may not have had a chance at your VHF channels. Your plasma set is likely using electricity in the range of a small washer or dryer. This can effectively wipe out VHF reception because of interference. I've been there and done that.


I can't believe more indoor antennas , or "HDTV" antennas, do not include an FM Trap. The vast majority of people buying these antennas do NOT want them for radio.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I know Ive been slipping on the Digitenna Antenna Reviews, but Ive got a lot on my plate right now. I should have a lot of reviews and new information for this thread soon.


Check out my guide to FM Antennas, that Ive been working on.

*EV's Best Top Rated FM and HD Radio Antenna Guide & Reviews* 


.


----------



## SeattleDesi

hey EV, could you advise on one more thing?


Considering my Winegard SS-3000 seems to be picking up everything i want, when positioned outside, could you help me compare its directivity and gain (in the polar diagram) with the GS-2200 and ANT 751?


Here's GS-2200's polar diagram and specs: http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewit...(GS2200)&post= 


Here's SS-3000's polar diagram and specs: http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/spec_SS3000.pdf 


If the GS-2200 is comparable, i'd rather get that as it can be placed outside permanently.


One thing i did notice, but cant explain, is that the FM trap on the GS-2200 is rated negatively (-15dB).. what does that mean? And the SS-3000 is rated at 10db.


How does the unamplified ANT751 compare in the directivity and gain? I know it doesn't have an FM trap


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The FM Trap is rated at -15db as that is the reduction on FM band frequencies on average. It reduces them 15db. You have -20db FM signal strengths on several FM frequencies according to your FM Fool....it would reduce these to -35db.


According to this report....



> Quote:
> T*esting for DTV Interference*
> 
> 
> by Charles W. Rhodes, 06.22.2009
> 
> 
> TVTechnology.com



Typical CECBs tuners have a tolerance of -15db to -35db FM signal strength....before they become serious problems. CECBs are latest generation tuners....your Panasonic if this or last years model would probably be equivalent. However a tuner from several years ago...it could be worse or perhaps on the low side (-35db) of CECBs tuners in this regard.


So the trap can make a big differnce for you, depending on your tuner....it probably is making a big difference especially after amplification (10db in the case of the Winegard SS3000), which would boost you back up to FM signals in the -25dbm range....still in uncertain territory.


The GS 2200 has an amplifier as well. Its a bi-directional dipole on VHF frequencies as the diagrams show. The SS-3000 has a small reflector screen which cuts down it bi-directionality some....if you removed it, it would be bi-directional.


If you have foiled backed insulation in the walls and that is what is killing your interior signal, then it is acting as a reflector outside and is a massive cause of multi-path. The small reflector screen of the Winegard 3000 would help that, but if you said that you turned it 90 degrees to the wall, then you would be pointing the nulls to the signals and the reflected signals, at 180 degrees you would be pointing at the reflected from wall signals and have the reflector screen combatting primary direct signals.


I still think that the RCA ANT751 is a good try for you and with a Winegard CA 8800 FM Filter/Seperator. That combo may be better without the amplifier I suggested (Winegard 269) in your situation as well. Hard to tell without actually A/Bing it at the site.


The Winegard SS3000's VHF High performance isnt very good, being negative compared to a Dipole cut to frequency, about -13 dbd on ch. 7 (before the amplification), but its sloped being lowest at ch. 7 and highest on ch. 13....so. The RCA on teh other hand is more like 5 to 8 dbd, being an exponential rise, it is much MUCH better on VHF Hi. But this means its also much much better on FM. Thus your predicament (which is unlikely to be solved without an FM Filter).


Hope that helps.


----------



## SeattleDesi

i need to translate that










noob question one, assuming an fm trap blocks radio frequencies in the FM mhz range, then is 10db a good number or bad? ie, it sounds like -15db, being negative, is a better number as far as trapping goes? If yes, then does the gs-2200 have a better fm trap after amplification?


As far as the reflector screen goes, i have currently removed it. It didn't seem to make much of a difference on or off.


But the 180" movement of the antenna, improving the vhf signal, especially considering the antenna is bi-directional in nature at that frequency, should have resulted in no difference. But it has.. considering i probably have a lot of reflection from my outside walls like you said.. maybe the antenna is in a "lucky" position where they cancel out each other.


Coming to ANT751 vs SS3000, i understand your pre-amplified comparison.. but considering the amplified SS3000 is rated at 7 to 10db vhf gain, isnt that as good as the ANT751, especially considering it has a built-in FM trap? That looks like a better value than the ANT751... yes?


Finally, if the SS-3000 is doing a good enough job for me *outside*, will the GS-2200 Sensar also work for me, considering they seem to be very similarly designed, and it comes with the fm trap?


The GS-2200 also seems to have more gain on vhf. (15db).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Seattle Desi, I dont know that I have energy right now to explain Basic Antenna Theory to you Right Now.


So here is the KYES site where you can find such information as, what does 3 dBd Gain mean? The answer is a doubling of signal capture compared to a reference dipole antenna cut to 1/2 wave of measured frequency.

KYES: About TV and FM Antennas 


Amplification (Gain) does not equal the gain of an antenna aka, the ability to capture radio energy and transform it into a usable electrical signal. Amplifier gain is not a substitute for antenna gain. It has its usefulness and can improve Overall System Performance by increasing the Signal/Noise ratio, but its primary purpose is to combat losses (due to splitters, filters, cable lengths, etc) between the antenna and the tuner. But it cant amplify nothing, and it can easily be overloaded with high power signals on FM or TV or other sources and actually degrade the signal.


----------



## SeattleDesi

that link was very good reading.. thx.


so to repeat what you said, unamplified gain is very important.


where did you find the unamplified gain for the gs-2200?


also, im still fuzzy on the -15db number for the fm trap.. is negative a good number? Sounds like it is..


is there a polar diagram for an antenna like the ant751? would this be close? http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/HD7000R.pdf 


Is the highly directional nature of the antenna a good thing, as it will avoid reflected multipath from the back? Or are the trees between the antenna and towers messing up my signal so badly that a reflected patio wall is my only solution?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yes, KYES Antenna site is very informative.


Unamplified Gain is very important to the overall system.


I didnt find the unamplified gain of the GS-2200. It is likely to be similar to SS-3000 on UHF, better than the SS-3000 on VHF High and VHF Low.


An FM Trap is designed to reduce signal at certain frequencies, namely 88 Mhz to 108 Mhz, where the FM broadcasts are located. The negative number reflects the level of reduction. In the Winegard SS3000's case, -15db. Other FM filters can give greater reductions of -25db like the Winegard FM Band Seperator.


No, information on the RCA ANT751/EZ HD is scarce. Yes that would be close, the RCA ANT751 is a derivitive of the Winegard 7000R having the same UHF section and a revised VHF section focusing on VHF High. The RCA ANT751's VHF Hi gain is likely a couple of dBs greater than those listed on the 7000R....F/B ratios are likely to be different as well on the VHF frequencies.


Hightly directional antenna designs can be a good thing. Often they are indicative of Higher Gain attributes, as they are related. More gain in one direction equals less gain in another direction.


Trees can be a problem, but they arent always as great a bogeyman that they can seem to be made out to be.


From what I understand of your situtation, powerful FM signals and the building materials are of much much greater concern.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Seattle Desi, whatever is driving you to the GS 2200, its worth a shot. There is also the GS 1100 that is the same but without integrated amplifier. Furthermore there is the Wingman attachment or version that improves UHF performance.


----------



## SeattleDesi

the reason i'm interested in the gs-2200 is simple.. because it is similar to the ss3000, has an fm trap (apparently a better one rated at -15db, while the ss3000 is +10db??), and is built for outdoors, it seems to be a lower risk than the ant751.


Unless i wrap the ss3000 in a plastic bag and leave it outside..


However, i do like the umamplified gain attributes of the ant751. But the additional investment (probable) in the fm trap is not making it a good deal.


I wish i could quickly field test the ant751 from walmart.. they dont have it in stock nearby, and the ship-2-store would mean a long drive (40 miles) to pick it up, and possibly to return again..


Decisions..


----------



## SeattleDesi

ev, educate us about grounding these external antennas.. what exactly is needed?


----------



## Rick313

Are any of your neighbors using antennas? If so, perhaps it would be worth your while to have a chat with some of them to find out what they're using.


----------



## SeattleDesi

found this article on Winegard's site comparing the "amplified" gain of ss-3000 with gs-2200.

http://winegard.com/kbase/kb_tip_results.php?tip_num=82 


Not much to go on, but the larger dipole logic makes sense. Considering the ss-3000 is doing a great job for me, i've ordered the gs-2200.. lets see how it performs. If it works exactly the same, or hopefully a shade better, i'll finally have a reliable outdoor solution.


I'm also going to ping them for unamplified gain specs.


----------



## okfireman

Nice job on the TV antenna guide. Trying to figure out which antenna to get and wondering if the OP is still a good guide to go by. I have no clue at all about antennas and am not sure at all what to get.

Here is my TV Fool. Can you or anyone else make any recommendations for me? I don't mind going outdoor if I need to. I was thinking about the DB2 but didnt know if there was another better option out now or what. Thanks


----------



## IDRick

Hi okfireman,


A DB-2 is a UHF only antenna. You have three high VHF signals in your market (ch 7, ABC; ch 9, CBS; and ch 13, PBS). The winegard 7694 antenna would be a good choice in your market. This is an outdoor antenna. It could be used in the attic but outdoors generally gives much better performance than attic installs.


HTH,


Rick


----------



## okfireman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/16987468
> 
> 
> Hi okfireman,
> 
> 
> A DB-2 is a UHF only antenna. You have three high VHF signals in your market (ch 7, ABC; ch 9, CBS; and ch 13, PBS). The winegard 7694 antenna would be a good choice in your market. This is an outdoor antenna. It could be used in the attic but outdoors generally gives much better performance than attic installs.
> 
> 
> HTH,
> 
> 
> Rick



thanks for the recommendation. Not having a good signal on ABC and CBS might be a problem lol. Looks like its in the same price range as the DB2 so that is nice. Is it the same as the winegard HD7694P?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Cant argue with IDRicks recommendation. This guide is primarily focused on antenna solutions for people with space and placement limitations.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Is it the same as the winegard HD7694P?



Yes.


The Winegard 7694P is not a huge antenna. I didnt want to give that impression from my previous post.


----------



## okfireman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16987602
> 
> 
> Cant argue with IDRicks recommendation. This guide is primarily focused on antenna solutions for people with space and placement limitations.



If it is outdoor I am not as space limited but do live in a city and don't want a huge antenna that I have to mount to my rough and look at. Obv indoors is preferred but I don't mind mounting outside so I can get better signal. Do you have any other recommendations to add to it or is that about the best choice given the situation? Obv I am sure there will always be better if I want to spend a crazy amount but I don't want to go crazy and doubt I would want to spend anymore then $150.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The guide is still current and applicable. However I do need to update the front page badly with some antennas and info.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

IDRicks suggestion is about as optimum as you will get, and its not that large. There are other solutions that may be somewhat smaller and may work, but the Winegard 7694 is the cleanest recommendation.


Channel Master 3016 would be another good recommendation.


Getting outside and higher is a huge bonus.


There is another antenna very similar in design to the Winegard 7694 but probably not built nearly as well. The AntennaCraft HBU-22. However I would recommend you spend the extra money on the Winegard.


----------



## okfireman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16987667
> 
> 
> IDRicks suggestion is about as optimum as you will get, and its not that large. There are other solutions that may be somewhat smaller and may work, but the Winegard 7694 is the cleanest recommendation.
> 
> 
> Channel Master 3016 would be another good recommendation.
> 
> 
> Getting outside and higher is a huge bonus.
> 
> 
> There is another antenna very similar in design to the Winegard 7694 but probably not built nearly as well. The AntennaCraft HBU-22. However I would recommend you spend the extra money on the Winegard.



Yes I definatly would prefer better construction because I live in oklahoma and we tend to have quite windy days.

It looks like it needs a pole. Am I correct on this and will I need anything else?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

A good reference on antenna installs can be found at: http://manuals.solidsignal.com/AntInstallGuide.pdf See chapter 4 for a discussion on various mounting techniques (chapter starts on page 8, roof mounts start on page 10.).


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I should probably put that in the links section on the front page.


----------



## okfireman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16987944
> 
> 
> I should probably put that in the links section on the front page.



Thanks for the link.

1 more questions. Will the antenna only be fine for my setup or do I need to be looking into amps and stuff?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

It depends on how many times you are going to split the signal into different TVs, tuners, cables, and your tuner's ability.


For one or 2 TVs, for your situation, that antenna should be fine with 50 ft of Quad Shield RG6 cable to a CECB tuner or HDTV bought within the last few years....with no added amplification.


Its fairly easy to add an amplifier down the road if you arent satisfied with the results or add another TV cable split.


----------



## okfireman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16988018
> 
> 
> It depends on how many times you are going to split the signal into different TVs, tuners, cables, and your tuner's ability.
> 
> 
> For one or 2 TVs, for your situation, that antenna should be fine with 50 ft of Quad Shield RG6 cable to a CECB tuner or HDTV bought within the last few years....with no added amplification.
> 
> 
> Its fairly easy to add an amplifier down the road if you arent satisfied with the results or add another TV cable split.



Yes I plan to have it split to my computer which will be hooked into a Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 which I imagine will have to be split to 2 signals so I can dual tune, then to a bedroom analog tv with a convertor box. I guess it would be nice to have it split to my living room TV for when I am using the computer as well. I guess I will try it and see how it does without the preamp. Any recommendations for amps if I end up needing one? Thanks for all the help and the awesome guide. Much appreciated.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Channel Master 7777


And your welcome. Thanks for the thanks. Good Luck! And let us know how it worked out for you. If you run into more questions or roadblocks , there are a ton of well informed and skilled friendly folks here to help you out.


----------



## okfireman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16988087
> 
> 
> Channel Master 7777
> 
> 
> And your welcome. Thanks for the thanks. Good Luck! And let us know how it worked out for you. If you run into more questions or roadblocks , there are a ton of well informed and skilled friendly folks here to help you out.



You think it would be best to just get the amp since I will be splitting 4 ways?


----------



## okfireman

One of the splits will just go to the anolog tv in the bedroom so should I just get a cheap antenna for it? Im not to worried about picture quality on it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Probably.....or a larger antenna. But a larger antenna presents its own problems, by tightening the beamwidth....which really isnt an problem in your case as all the transmission are coming from a tight location about 30 miles away. However the larger antenna will operate effectively in a power outage. Dont know if that makes a difference to a fireman in OK.


----------



## okfireman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16988197
> 
> 
> Probably.....or a larger antenna. But a larger antenna presents its own problems, by tightening the beamwidth....which really isnt an problem in your case as all the transmission are coming from a tight location about 30 miles away. However the larger antenna will operate effectively in a power outage. Dont know if that makes a difference to a fireman in OK.



I am not to worried about power outages. Maybe I will work on getting the computer setup and possibly splitting to the TV. Are splitters a pretty generic thing or are there diffrences?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Splitters are a pretty generic thing....you need to make sure that they pass the DC power through though. Some only pass on one side, so you need to keep that DC path open whereever you place the power injector for the mast mounted amplifer.


Also, in the event of a power outage, you could go to the where the first split is, and direct wire your laptop to the 7694P primary down cable and should be good to go.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Some information on splitters can be found *here* .


You can also get 3 way balanced splitters, or 4 way splitters, depending on how you want to run the cabling and whatnot.


Antronix makes some good splitters.


----------



## okfireman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16988366
> 
> 
> Some information on splitters can be found *here* .
> 
> 
> You can also get 3 way balanced splitters, or 4 way splitters, depending on how you want to run the cabling and whatnot.
> 
> 
> Antronix makes some good splitters.



Well it appears that the TV tuner will split the signal internally, not sure if this will decrease the signal strength or not. Then I would only be splitting between that and my TV so that would only require 2 splits which will hopefully keep me from needing a amp. Thanks for all the help again.


----------



## okfireman

Any suggestions for trusted sites to buy the Winegard 7694P from?


Is this pretty much the cheapest and safest place to get it or is there better options? I dont see it cheaper anywhere else but wasnt sure if they were a reliable source.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...ource=googleps


----------



## IDRick

Solid signal is a great place to buy your antenna. Let us know how it works for you!


----------



## okfireman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick*  /forum/post/16995342
> 
> 
> Solid signal is a great place to buy your antenna. Let us know how it works for you!




Thanks and thanks for all the help. I purchased a AverMedia duet dual digital tuner for my computer and am getting ready to get the antenna from solid signal. Hopefully I can get by without a amp. Ill let you guys know how it turns out.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Added Digitenna Suburban, Metro, Indoor....RCA ANT 751....Quantum FX ANT-102....Lava A-463.....HD 650 to first page.


Comments added to QFX ANT-102 and Lava A-463.


Need to comment on Digitennas and Antennas Direct ClearStream1 Convertible here and on the front page. And RCA ANT751, ClearStream2, and the HD 650 on the front page.


----------



## locomo

EV,

What's the best small indoor and/or outdoor antenna that can go down to channel 5 ?


Thanks


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *locomo* /forum/post/17012270
> 
> 
> What's the best small indoor and/or outdoor antenna that can go down to channel 5 ?
> 
> 
> Thanks



I'd try this: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=ANC3010 


It works on channel 6 in Albany, NY


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Anything with Rabbit Ears, use them fully extended for Ch. 5.


If you are not in danger of overloading the amplifer with strong signals including FM, an amplifier can help increase distance/range.


RS 1892 UFO

Quantum FX ANT102

Terk HDTVa

Philips MANT950


all good choices indoors.


Terk HDTVi can be a good choice as well.



For outdoors...well...post your TVFool info so we have something to go by. There are short range and fringe options.


----------



## locomo

Thanks guys.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...23c586dfe13514 


I only need the azimuth range of 348 (channel 5) to 27 (channel 29).

Those 2 and everything else I want are in the green, but there are lots of tall trees around.


A Tivo HD with rabbit ears gives occasional pixelation, but I wouldn't mind something better.

I have a couple of MyHD (computer) tuners that are OK, but the ancient Samsung SIR T165 and

the infamous RCA F38310 TV (I forget the actual tuner) are much more problematic.


Everything was a lot easier when NBC was in the 50's and not VHF low.


----------



## SeattleDesi

finally! an antenna that works for my environment and location.. the winner after countless hours of research, purchases, and positioning.. the Winegard gs-2200.


Super strong VHF (9, 11, 13).. excellent UHF. Pulls a UHF station (28.1) 30 miles away with 70% strength. High UHF (channels 40-51) at 80%. Every channel in a 30 mile radius published in tv fool.. and guess what, the antenna is INDOORS.


Comes with the same low noise amplifier as the ss-3000. I'm stoked.


EV, you have to profile this antenna in your roundup as a contender. Based on my experience, its better than the ss-3000, Terks / Silver Sensors, Philips crap. and Radiocrap.


It's also got a great price on buy.com.


----------



## deltaguy

SeattleDesi,


Congrats! I'm not surprised that an antenna that is bi-directional is what is working for you. You've probably got signals bouncing around there like the balls in a pinball machine.


Is only one aim required for the Seattle channels?


----------



## SeattleDesi

tvfool shows a majority of channels from seattle downtown.. from my location, i have a couple of uhf channels roughly 110 degrees south of seattle dowtown.. the winegard picks those up too.


what is interesting is that i had to bring the antenna indoors for it to pick up everything.. the signal strength numbers are much better outside. But channel 9 got overloaded with the amplifier on.. it works only if the amp is unplugged. The remaining channels however needed the amplifier regardless.


If i position the antenna next to a window (indoors), facing the transmitters downtown, then channel 9 works nicely.


You are right the antenna is bidirectional, but so was the mant510. But its dipoles couldnt handle any vhf.


Also, my understanding is that signal bounce, aka multipath, is bad in general.. does that apply to unidirectional antennas only?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Glad to hear that worked out for you Seattle Desi. Just goes to show you, you can talk about this that and the other antenna theory and issues, but nothing beats on hand trial and error.


:thumbsup


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SeattleDesi* /forum/post/17022599
> 
> 
> tvfool shows a majority of channels from seattle downtown.. from my location, i have a couple of uhf channels roughly 110 degrees south of seattle dowtown.. the winegard picks those up too.
> 
> 
> what is interesting is that i had to bring the antenna indoors for it to pick up everything.. the signal strength numbers are much better outside. But channel 9 got overloaded with the amplifier on.. it works only if the amp is unplugged. The remaining channels however needed the amplifier regardless.
> 
> 
> If i position the antenna next to a window (indoors), facing the transmitters downtown, then channel 9 works nicely.
> 
> 
> You are right the antenna is bidirectional, but so was the mant510. But its dipoles couldnt handle any vhf.
> 
> 
> Also, my understanding is that signal bounce, aka multipath, is bad in general.. does that apply to unidirectional antennas only?



Yet another story of indoor reception being better than outdoor.










If multipath includes reflected signals, then it's not always a bad thing. I need a minimum of 3 different antenna aims for my indoor antennas to get the best reception for stations broadcasting from the Walnut Grove antenna farm. One antenna needs the 180 degree aim for one of the channels. I've three different antennas and three different digital tuners. I don't know why the 180 works for KOVR with the one directional antenna, but it does.


The correct antenna aim is the one that works.


Did I mention the elusive foil-backed insulation here? It works well.


----------



## tadcu

Hi,

I am newly regestered but have been reading the thread for a while. I've tried a couple of the antennas with varied success and would like to purchase the Quantum FX ANT-102. But I've googled and only come up with one possible source on ebay. Any idea of a reliable on-line vendor? Thank you.


----------



## hcour

Ok, this may be the dumbest question ever on this subject, but will an outdoor antenna work indoors? I've tried several indoor antennas from RS, including the 1892, and none of them quite did it. I can get all 4 networks, but not in the same location, I have to move it around. Aren't outdoor antenna's more powerful?


I'm a bachelor so I'm not worried that it would look weird to have an outdoor antenna in my den. I just want to get rid of my expensive cable service and go OTA.


Cost is not an issue, w/o by expensive cable bill, the antenna will pay for itself pretty quickly, even if it's expensive.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hcour* /forum/post/17085963
> 
> 
> Ok, this may be the dumbest question ever on this subject, but will an outdoor antenna work indoors? ...





Yes, provided it picks up the signal that is indoors and you don't poke an eye out.


Still, it's going to be a matter of experimentation to see what signal is actually making it indoors and how usable it may be.


----------



## havix

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecdcb701badf4 


I need a little help picking out an antenna. From the looks of it everything is uhf for the most part. I am looking to replace a subpar indoor philips antenna I bought a couple years ago since I've recently lost the ability to get in channel 11 reliably and am looking to mount a single antenna in the attic. Any suggestions?


----------



## spdj

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecd32325d0b0b 


Here are my TVFool results. Any reccommendations on an indoor antenna for picking up channels 2-13? It looks like they are all the same direction and about the same distance away. So I'm thinking a good directional one like the Terk HDTVa should be good right?


----------



## tanfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *havix* /forum/post/17132119
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecdcb701badf4
> 
> 
> I need a little help picking out an antenna. From the looks of it everything is uhf for the most part. I am looking to replace a subpar indoor philips antenna I bought a couple years ago since I've recently lost the ability to get in channel 11 reliably and am looking to mount a single antenna in the attic. Any suggestions?



Some might disagree, but I think it would be worth trying an RCA ANT751. You can see my post about my results using its clone, the EZ-HD antenna, in a second-floor bedroom, here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post17126280


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The HDTVa would be a good selection, as always, with indoor antennas there are no gaurantees.


You are right that VHF is going to be your most difficult stations, because of teh requirement for larger antenna elements for them, which limit indoor antennas generally to Rabbit Ears (VHF Single Dipole)....and amplification can help there as well.


Your signals are pretty strong though....so you might not need amplification. And amplification could actually hurt you on your stronger signals, but Id try the amplified HDTVa first.


Also the Quantum FX ANT102 is worth serious consideration.


----------



## tiercel

I live in San Jose, 95112, in an apartment. Currently I have rabbit ears + UHF loop and I am getting a lot of "almost there" OTA signals and am looking for an indoor antenna that will be just a step up. (I'd particularly like to be able to pull in KGO for the occasional college football game.)


TVFool sez:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6857/radarall.png 


From the living room, there is a single wall (air conditioner set into it near floor level, vents onto balcony). The balcony doesn't open onto the living room, so short of drilling through the wall where the air conditioner sits, I'm not sure that's terribly feasible. There is a thin stucco finish on the exterior walls; the main living room windows (where we could try to aim through with the antenna, albeit obliquely) are metal-framed.


Like I said, rabbit ears (+UHF loop) *almost* pull in the signal (with a little monkeying with the orientation and sitting in the right place, I can just land the channel) -- I just need something that will be a bit more, without having to play Charades dancing around with the antenna every time I turn on the TV.


Given that KGO in particular is VHF, I don't know if I'd be best off getting something Silver-Sensor-esque and just pointing at Sutro Tower (all the entries listed at 41.7 miles, azimuth 312deg), i.e. just go out and grab a Terk HDTVa or similar. I've seen that the Terrestial Digital DB2 gets high marks for indoor use and I am interested in clearing up as many signals as possible -- but I don't know how much better the DB2 will do compared to rabbit ears in VHF. (Cos the rabbit ears aren't quite cutting it....)


Thanks!


----------



## psychoboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tanfan* /forum/post/17135459
> 
> 
> Some might disagree, but I think it would be worth trying an RCA ANT751. You can see my post about my results using its clone, the EZ-HD antenna, in a second-floor bedroom, here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post17126280



I am using the ANT751 in a building on the 4th floor just north of the city of Durham, NC, near Duke. It's inside pointed towards a window with mini blinds facing the south with probably a load of buildings in my way from the downtown area. Gets me all the locals and then some! If I turn it west, I can pick up Greensboro, and that is going through the whole other side of the building (no windows/other apartments, and a parking garage). Before the switch I was using a silver sensor to get all that but it just wasn't enough after the switch. Got it for $80 at wally world, then after confirming it worked, ordered it online for $40 shipped. Returned the $80 one, "Bite me wally, how dare you mark up your stuff more then 200%!"


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tiercel* /forum/post/17152268
> 
> 
> I live in San Jose, 95112, in an apartment. Currently I have rabbit ears + UHF loop and I am getting a lot of "almost there" OTA signals and am looking for an indoor antenna that will be just a step up. (I'd particularly like to be able to pull in KGO for the occasional college football game.)
> 
> 
> TVFool sez:
> 
> http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6857/radarall.png
> 
> 
> From the living room, there is a single wall (air conditioner set into it near floor level, vents onto balcony). The balcony doesn't open onto the living room, so short of drilling through the wall where the air conditioner sits, I'm not sure that's terribly feasible. There is a thin stucco finish on the exterior walls; the main living room windows (where we could try to aim through with the antenna, albeit obliquely) are metal-framed.
> 
> 
> Like I said, rabbit ears (+UHF loop) *almost* pull in the signal (with a little monkeying with the orientation and sitting in the right place, I can just land the channel) -- I just need something that will be a bit more, without having to play Charades dancing around with the antenna every time I turn on the TV.
> 
> 
> Given that KGO in particular is VHF, I don't know if I'd be best off getting something Silver-Sensor-esque and just pointing at Sutro Tower (all the entries listed at 41.7 miles, azimuth 312deg), i.e. just go out and grab a Terk HDTVa or similar. I've seen that the Terrestial Digital DB2 gets high marks for indoor use and I am interested in clearing up as many signals as possible -- but I don't know how much better the DB2 will do compared to rabbit ears in VHF. (Cos the rabbit ears aren't quite cutting it....)
> 
> 
> Thanks!



DB2 is a UHF antenna and has NEGATIVE Gain on Hi-VHF channels 7-13.

Silver Sensor is UHF only with NEGATIVE Gain on Hi-VHF....unless it has Rabbit Ears.

HDTVa includes RabbitEars BUT the built-in Preamp is going to overload on your

very strong stations....meaning you probably lose some weak UHF stations.

HDTVi model includes RabbitEars & UHF Loop, without a Preamp.


You need a BETTER Hi-VHF antenna, such as the Circular Loop described here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhfloop 

It will have 2-3 dB more Gain than "good" Rabbit Ears and a lot more if they are "poor".

Merge it with your existing UHF antenna with a UVSJ Combiner:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...nna-%28UVSJ%29 


Copper Tubing, as used to plumb ice makers in refrigerators, is relatively inexpensive.

For best results, use either "1/4-in" or "3/8-in" type (the latter is actually 1/2-in O.D.).

Or for a quick, lower Gain trial run, try some wire taped to the window....

If you need more Gain, consider figuring a way to add a Reflector Loop....


Or make room for an RCA ANT-751 (in a closet? behind a big chair???):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0024R4B5C 

PS: Size on Amazon is apparently shipping weight. Actual size is about 35"W x 40+"L.


Apts are very unfriendly for indoor antennas with lots of metal rebar between floors

and the stucco is slathered onto chicken wire. Modern Low-E Glass attenuates UHF by

about 20 dB, but I haven't seen any data wrt Hi-VHF attenuation.

So hunt around for the "best" location, location, location....


----------



## hcour

 http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=615798100285 


Does a gadget like this actually work?


If I used this with the RS 1892, how far apart would the 2 antennas need to be to work properly?


----------



## Trackman

Picked up a Quantum FX 102 this week. House location is good, with main transmitters c. 20 miles away over flat terrain and no big trees immediately in path by house. Antenna location is not so good - between 60" plasma and wall, 3.5 ft off the ground, and most importantly, on the side of the house farthest away from the towers with 75' of rooms and walls in between. To illustrate the problem, the same setup (smaller plasma) w/ a Silver Sensor in the bedroom right next to the window on the same side of the house as the towers picks up all locals from 9.1 to 40.1 no problem. The SS couldn't get the VHF channels in the back room though. A friend gave me a RS 18-1886 (I think) and with max gain it would get most of the UHF (but not 18), and 9.1 but 10.1 (local ABC - weak signal) was always borderline at 50 - 60%.


The Quantum, on the first try just extending the ears straight up at about a 10" spread and pointing the dish towards the transmitters, offset a bit towards the wall, with about 25% gain, picked up every local at 70% or better, inc. 10.1 and 18.1. The only disappointment is that the remote does not power the unit on/off but works solely the rotation. Otherwise, it's great.


----------



## tadcu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trackman* /forum/post/17166079
> 
> 
> Picked up a Quantum FX 102 this week. House location is good, with main transmitters c. 20 miles away over flat terrain and no big trees immediately in path by house. Antenna location is not so good - between 60" plasma and wall, 3.5 ft off the ground, and most importantly, on the side of the house farthest away from the towers with 75' of rooms and walls in between. To illustrate the problem, the same setup (smaller plasma) w/ a Silver Sensor in the bedroom right next to the window on the same side of the house as the towers picks up all locals from 9.1 to 40.1 no problem. The SS couldn't get the VHF channels in the back room though. A friend gave me a RS 18-1886 (I think) and with max gain it would get most of the UHF (but not 18), and 9.1 but 10.1 (local ABC - weak signal) was always borderline at 50 - 60%.
> 
> 
> The Quantum, on the first try just extending the ears straight up at about a 10" spread and pointing the dish towards the transmitters, offset a bit towards the wall, with about 25% gain, picked up every local at 70% or better, inc. 10.1 and 18.1. The only disappointment is that the remote does not power the unit on/off but works solely the rotation. Otherwise, it's great.



Trackman:

I have been wanting to purchase a Quantum FX 102 but I've only found one source which is on ebay. Also, in the various pictures I've seen of it, some look like it's a light silver color and some look dark grey. I need it to be dark grey. What color is yours? Would you tell me where you purchased it?


----------



## EmptyPockets




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/16995342
> 
> 
> Solid signal is a great place to buy your antenna. Let us know how it works for you!



Solid Signal is way over-priced.I ordered a Channel Master converter box

from them and they were too cheap to ship it in a box,slapped a UPS label on

the factory box and shipped it.The box came all beat-up but the converter still worked.


If you ordered an antenna from them I bet it would look like it went through

a meat grinder by the time you got it


----------



## holl_ands

Sounds like your gripe is with the choice of SHIPPER, rather than the seller.

Perhaps you should chose one of the AIR Shipper alternatives....


And/or ask if they'll build a wooden crate to put the antenna in.....of course,

the crate will increase the total cost by at least an order of magnitude....


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EmptyPockets* /forum/post/17167781
> 
> 
> Solid Signal is way over-priced.I ordered a Channel Master converter box
> 
> from them and they were too cheap to ship it in a box,slapped a UPS label on
> 
> the factory box and shipped it.The box came all beat-up but the converter still worked.
> 
> 
> If you ordered an antenna from them I bet it would look like it went through
> 
> a meat grinder by the time you got it



I have heard complaints over shipping converter boxes in their original container. In months of reading this and other antenna forums, I have yet to hear of antennas arriving in bad shape at their final destination. I have and will use them again. YMMV...


----------



## speck9




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16526393
> 
> 
> Still working on acquiring the
> 
> 
> Jasco Millenium



Home Depot may have a few GE locally according to their website.

Link 


GE Platinum, which is the Millenium

GE Omni Amplified

GE Omni non-amplified


they have the futura outdoor too, but it looks like you tested that one already


----------



## f1champ

for the RCA ANT1500, what does it mean by "electrified" ?


----------



## Trackman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tadcu* /forum/post/17166755
> 
> 
> Trackman:
> 
> I have been wanting to purchase a Quantum FX 102 but I've only found one source which is on ebay. Also, in the various pictures I've seen of it, some look like it's a light silver color and some look dark grey. I need it to be dark grey. What color is yours? Would you tell me where you purchased it?



Sorry, been away for a few days. Mine is dark gray. Got it at millionbuy.com.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f1champ* /forum/post/17184971
> 
> 
> for the RCA ANT1500, what does it mean by "electrified" ?



Early on, EV connected the RCA ANT1500 to what he thought was an amplifier, but it turned out to be a power injector. Surprisingly, the power injector appeared to make the antenna work better, so he began noting it as "electrified" rather than amped. See EV's post on this here .


----------



## f1champ

thanks Rick.


any input on omni antenna such as the new RCA1550, RCA1650, Terk TDTV1A, TDTV2A?

what are the differences between them?

thanks.


----------



## VGPOP

This is my report, I'm thinking about one. Hoping to see which are the best for me.


I am actually going to "buy" one now. Cheap. $30-$40 bucks. If I like what I see, I'll keep it, if not, I'll return it and wait for someone with more experience to tell me which one are best based on where I am located.


I live in an apartment complex. First floor. My room and balcony window face WEST side.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecdf8713064af


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah, I really screwed that one up!


Ill try to catch up later, and make a post.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hcour* /forum/post/17165319
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=615798100285
> 
> 
> Does a gadget like this actually work?
> 
> 
> If I used this with the RS 1892, how far apart would the 2 antennas need to be to work properly?



CC-7870 is just an overpriced garden variety RF Splitter/Combiner....with DC PASS

on one port like the SAT versions....


You didn't say what the OTHER antenna was you wanted to combine....

Are you trying to do UHF on one and VHF on the other or VHF/UHF on both???


----------



## tadcu

Thank you, Trackman, for the Quantum FX 102 purchase site. and everyone for all the good antenna info.


----------



## kjroach

Help Please







I'm in serious need of a great antenna... Problem is, I live in an Apartment near the BART station in Castro Valley, Facing the hills of the Dublin Grade.

I purchased the Radio Shack Amplified HDTV Antenna 15-254. The specs are: Output:75 ohms, Frequency range: VHF 54-216MHz UHF 470-806MHz, FM 88-108MHz, Amplification: 22dB Gain Control 18dB.



I'm all new to this & after moving this antenna all around the TV, (the cord is very short and I have a 56 inch HDTV) i can only get about 2 channels, My TV is in the corner near a window with the probes facing the window. Can some one please help me figure out what the best antenna would be. I have been looking into the RCA ANT2000 Auto Adjustable Smart Flat Digital Indoor Antenna for HDTV, SDTV, VHF & UHF Frequencies that I would just place inside the window but I really dont know.


My live in a downstairs unit facing the street and I'm not positive what type of matterial the building is made from I would think stucco, and there are power lines in my view, just the regular street type lines.


Thanks for your help.... Have a Great Day!


----------



## kjroach

So does the Quantum FX 102 work good for you???? Im needing a great antenna really soon.

Thanks


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f1champ* /forum/post/17190369
> 
> 
> any input on omni antenna such as the new RCA1550, RCA1650, Terk TDTV1A, TDTV2A?



I've heard it said that omni directional antennas receive equally poorly in all directions. My opinion is that they're usually overpriced and overhyped. They usually claim to work for both UHF and VHF but are, in essence, UHF only antennas. If you're in a strong signal area, then you will probably get some VHF reception as well, but that's true of most any antenna.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f1champ* /forum/post/17190369
> 
> 
> what are the differences between them?



I believe the only differences between the RCA ANT1550 and ANT1650 are cosmetic.


I'm not sure what the differences are between the Terk FDTV1A and FDTV2A. I assume those are the models you meant. Based on their specs, they appear to be functionally identical. The FDTV1A does say "high gain", so that could be a difference, or it could have been inadvertently left out of the FDTV2A feature list.


Unfortunately, neither of these manufacturers really give consumers enough information to make an intelligent choice. Considering that and the fact that the reviews for these antennas on Amazon are few and mixed, I would suggest looking at some of the many other great antennas mentioned in this thread.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kjroach* /forum/post/17213820
> 
> 
> I'm in serious need of a great antenna.



Since you don't have any line of sight stations, you're asking a lot from an indoor antenna. At best you'll only be able to receive maybe a half dozen stations. If that works for you, I would suggest trying the Radio Shack 15-1892 or Terk HDTVa .


It would also be a good idea to check your local thread to find out which antennas other people in your area may be using successfully.


Another good idea is to buy locally. That way, you can return any antenna that doesn't work out for you without having to pay shipping or restocking fees. If you find something that works well for you, please be sure to let us know.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kjroach* /forum/post/17213820
> 
> 
> I have been looking into the RCA ANT2000 Auto Adjustable Smart Flat Digital Indoor Antenna for HDTV, SDTV, VHF & UHF Frequencies that I would just place inside the window but I really dont know.



The RCA ANT2000 requires a special "CEA909 smart antenna connector interface" on any device to which it is connected. Unless your equipment supports this interface, it won't work.


----------



## spokybob

EV: I asked an RV guy about his neat antenna. It looked like a Winegard 2200 with some UHF elements out front. He did not have any info for me except that it worked better than his prior antenna.

I think Winegard says it is a snap-on element called the WingMan.

Do you have more info, like a test?


----------



## winegard




> Quote:
> EV: I asked an RV guy about his neat antenna. It looked like a Winegard 2200 with some UHF elements out front. He did not have any info for me except that it worked better than his prior antenna.
> 
> I think Winegard says it is a snap-on element called the WingMan.
> 
> Do you have more info, like a test?



The Wingman is a very inexpensive add-on to the Sensar and GS-2200. An independant tester on the RV forums has posted some of his results here...


http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fu...d/22423030.cfm


----------



## avsblaster

I live in the bay area, at junction of Cupertino and Saratoga. The signal in south bay is very weak for most of the major stations, as Sutro tower is ~45 miles away in SF, so an outdoor antenna is a must for getting HDTV OTA.


I have looked into some outdoor antenna models but generally don't like the large ones. Right now I am leaning toward one of these two models: 1) ClearStream C4, I like its small size; 2) ChannelMaster 4228.


Attached is the report from TVFool.


Would appreciate your advice on which one is a better choice.


Thanks


----------



## deltaguy

avsblaster,


You would be better served posting this in the SF OTA thread. Lots of folks from your locale post there. They know what works outdoors.


----------



## smcpartlin

My father's home needs an antenna.


name (channel) callsign distance ? direction

WFLD 31 (32.1) Fox 20.3 LOS 62.3

WGN-DT 19 (9.1) CW 20.3 LOS 60.3

WPWR-DT 51 (50.1) MyN 20.3 LOS 59.8

WCIU-DT 27 (26.1) Ind 20.3 LOS 59.5

WGBO-DT 38 (66.1) Uni 21.8 LOS 58.8

WMAQ-DT 29 (5.1) NBC 20.3 LOS 57.0

WSNS-DT 45 (44.1) TEL 20.3 LOS 55.4

WCPX-DT 43 (38.1) ION 20.3 LOS 54.1

WTTW-DT 47 (11.1) PBS 20.3 LOS 54.1

WXFT-DT 50 (60.1) Tel 20.3 LOS 53.1

WLS-TV 7 ABC 20.3 LOS 52.8

WJYS-DT 36 (62.1) Ind 20.3 LOS 52.1

WYCC-DT 21 (20.1) PBS 21.8 LOS 51.6

WBBM-TV 12 (2.1) CBS 20.3 LOS 50.6

WYIN-DT 17 (56.1) PBS 28.5 LOS 46.8

W25DW 25 (25.1) 21.0 LOS 43.0

WCHU-LP 44 (61.1) 21.8 LOS 41.2

WOCK-CD 4 (13.1) 21.8 LOS 38.8

WWME-LD 39 20.3 LOS 38.2

WEDE-CA 34 (34.1) 20.3 LOS 36.6



Would like to put antenna in his attic. that would put the antenna about 35 feet in the air.


had been looking on ebay for antenna's.

item 220461127520


My gut tells me it's a scam.


but I saw this one:

220461127520

a godar hd-3 and thought it might be a good fit.


I thought I remember a terk "tube" antenna that was like 5ft long and designed for you attic.


This is large open space with little metal obstructions. (could fit a basketball court in this space)


Can mount a mast or pole or whatever to mount.


Was planning to use SATVISION SM-2002 5-870MHz TV SIGNAL LEVEL METER to align the antenna. Thing is I don't have lots of time so any advise?


----------



## SWHouston

Greetings smcpartlin,


Attic Installations frequently don't deliver the best reception, it's ALWAYS better to install an Antenna on the Rooftop. Having said that, let's see what we can do with your specific criteria.


Your entry's for the Channels are greatly appreciated, and the "?" you have over the "LOS" column, that means "Line of Sight", a VERY good thing !


There is other information needed to evaluate your needs, so...

It would be very helpful if you were to go to...
TVFool Transmitter Locater 

Please enter the exact Address & Zip Code, or better even, the GPS Coordinates to acquire the most accurate information.

On the Bottom of that page, it gives an entry for “Antenna Height”, which is where you would enter the number in Feet, that the Antenna will be installed at, above ground.

Once those entries are made, you may click on the “Find Local Channels” tab, and the next screen will show the Stations in your locale.

IF you wish to Print out the information to view later, you must first save that page to your computer, and print it out from there.

Now, if you look right above the Graph and Station Chart on the second page, you will notice a link line in *bold script*.

That is the one which you should copy and paste into your next post, where we can view your complete chart with you.


Please understand, that all of the channels listed on the Chart, will not necessarily be able to be received, and it's possible that several of the remaining which can be received, are of no interest to you.

Customarily, a reasonable "setup", would *attempt* to receive as many of the major Broadcast Channels as possible.
_(Exact Address’ will not be shown, and GPS Coordinates will be modified for Security Purposes)_


Have a good Day !









S.W.


----------



## smcpartlin

I added a pdf of the TV fool data. Hope fully it can help.

 

tvmap_20091030114057.pdf 299.4892578125k . file


----------



## daigo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kjroach* /forum/post/17213885
> 
> 
> So does the Quantum FX 102 work good for you???? Im needing a great antenna really soon.
> 
> Thanks



I just ordered the Quantum FX 102 from millionbuy and it came fairly quickly after payment. Unfortunately, it didn't offer any improvement over my Terk HDTVa antenna.


I have a pretty difficult situation since I live in a townhouse with two adjoining neighboring homes on both sides. The family room tv I'm trying to get OTA signal to is in the second of three floors in my house, ~10 feet away from the large sliding glass doors facing west, but my two nearest major transmission towers are N or NE from me. While the Terk works well for most channels if I move and re-direct it around a bit (unfortunately moving one of my front tower speakers around...), the Quantum FX 102 didn't pick up my two problem channels well at all (locally 2.1 and 5.1 here in the south san francisco).


Initiating a return to millionbuy and still looking for a indoor antenna option so I don't have to move my speakers/antenna around =(


----------



## holl_ands

Miniaturized Indoor Antennas can only go so far....try a "real" antenna, such as a 4-Bay for UHF,

with a UVSJ coupler for either your current VHF RabbitEars....or upgrade to a DIY Hi-VHF Loop Antenna:
www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops 

Towards the top of the webpage you can navigate to performance for alternative 4-Bay antennas.


Mclapp's DIY Super-Sized-4Bay has been optimized for the NEW UHF Band (Ch14-51) and ALSO

provides Better-than-RabbitEars performance for Hi-VHF Ch7-13:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14193340 

Hang it proudly on the wall....or hide it behind a big chair....


----------



## SWHouston

smcpartlin,


HA, you're more paranoid than I am, but, the pdf will do nicely.










You got a real tight group of all your Major Channels at a Magnetic Azimuth of 31°.


Now, I'm going to eliminate the WOCK Station, I just don't think you need to consider it, and in doing that, lets us focus on a UHF Only Antenna.


So, the next consideration is, just how much Antenna will you need, to punch through the Plyboard and Shingles, and make it to the Transmitters at 21 miles.


You said you had a nice large space to install in, but, let me give you a link to a drawing, which you can see where the clearances need to be at...
Attic Mount for TV Antenna 


This shows a Rotator installation, and a couple other views of a stationary mount, like you probably will do. I particularly like mounting on a piece of Plyboard, where you can move it around for aiming and relocation in the attic if needed, THEN you can nail it down in place, when you're sure you got it right.


Given that the accepted loss of signal is about 40% through Shingles, prompts me to select an Antenna which has about twice the range/power of what would be needed, on a Rooftop installation. Here's a couple choices, and any of these will do nicely, you will be able to see how they're constructed, and apply that to your location/space.

AntennaCraft U-4000 

or the...
Antennas Direct 42XG 

or the...
Terrestrial Digital LaCrosse-A 

(Note: this one has it's own pedestal "J Mount")


As you can see, the pricing on these vary considerably, BUT, don't let the lower cost make you think it's not a good antenna, all of them are. Actually, there are several more which will work, but, they would be relative duplications of the ones linked above, If the ones above don't fit the bill, I can suggest others.

Hope this helps you, and come on back if you have more questions.


Have a good Day !









S.W.


----------



## db130

i pulled the trigger on Quantum ANT-102 today from the ebay seller who has it listed as "UHF/VHF/FM DIGITAL TV HDTV INDOOR AMPLIFIED ANTENNA"


the "buy-it-now" price was $25 with free shipping+eligibility for instant 8% Bing cashback= $23 net price.


----------



## Frankie20

Sweet deal. When you get the Quantum ANT-102, maybe you can tell us how the built quality of the antenna is...


----------



## db130




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frankie20* /forum/post/17456686
> 
> 
> Sweet deal. When you get the Quantum ANT-102, maybe you can tell us how the built quality of the antenna is...



sure will. i should also mention that the Quantum ANT-102 seems to be virtually identical to the Cornet F-8400AR which has been mentioned here previously as being similar in construction to the RS-1880. The Cornet costs more for some reason.


----------



## HDKing

I need something for my PC and HDtv. Before the digital switch, all my HD channels came in perfectly fine without having to adjust or move the antenna. Now I can move it and only get 3 out of 4 networks. Then I move it to get the other one and lose 1. I hate OTA digital, but I will not pay Directv to give me local HD.


----------



## SJMAYE

Before the transition all but one channel was in UHF band. Everyone was pushing high power UHF only type antennas. By pure accident I bought a large old style VHF/UHF typle antenna. Now I am glad I did.


Some of the channels in Nashville moved from UHF band to VHF band during that transition. If you happened to get a UHF only antenna that could have hurt you.


As far as I know the position of the transmission stations did not change. Only the frequency. I would look at the signal strength of each channel and compare it to the map of transmitter locations shown on antennaweb.org. The stations are, in most cases, clustered. So if you are getting good reception from one station, but not in another station in the same cluster your problem is most likely frequency related.


This has been my experience. I will be the first to tell you I am not an expert with antennas. Maybe one of the experts will join in and help further.


BTW- Like you, my antenna is feeding my HTPC. I am using an HDHomerun for tuners.


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HDKing* /forum/post/17478132
> 
> 
> I need something for my PC and HDtv. Before the digital switch, all my HD channels came in perfectly fine without having to adjust or move the antenna. Now I can move it and only get 3 out of 4 networks. Then I move it to get the other one and lose 1. I hate OTA digital, but I will not pay Directv to give me local HD.



Where are you? Can you post your TVFool? Need some (more) information to help you!


----------



## db130




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frankie20* /forum/post/17456686
> 
> 
> Sweet deal. When you get the Quantum ANT-102, maybe you can tell us how the built quality of the antenna is...



it arrived today and i just tested it out. i have two stations 7 miles away that are relatively weak, 135.000 kW and 500.000 kW that i just could not receive reliably with other antennae. previously i've tried a silver sensor, the RS UFO antenna, and the GE/Jasco 24720(listed in order of effectiveness from worst to best).


much to my surprise, both channels are coming in at around 70% signal quality with the ANT-102!


it looks cheap but it works well. the button on the remote for the rotating function got stuck the first time i used it and i had to disassemble the remote to fix it. a single screw attaches the circuit board to the remote control housing and when the button on the remote is pressed, it can flex the circuit board until the button comes out of its intended location and it becomes stuck inside the remote, rendering the button useless. i ended up cutting up a piece of plastic to shim the circuit board against the remote housing so that it does not flex. not a big deal if you are even "remotely" handy.










summary: try the ANT-102 before you spend $50 on the UFO.


----------



## HD74

I have settled on the Antennas Direct C-2 antenna as best all around for my area, one station on VHF-Hi, everybody else on UHF. After about a year, performance began falling off on them. Investigating, I found the loops were full of water! Drilled a small weep hole at the bottom of one, looked like it was draining about 3 beers. Seemed to work, once all the water was gone, performance was back. Anybody else experienced this?


----------



## rila3400

Hello,


I currently am using a Zinwell ZAT-950A DTV converter box coupled to a Silver Ribbon (???) indoor antenna.

I am able to receive transmissions from many stations (17) in my area.

However, I experience frequent signal drops (bad signal msg) which usually are of short duration.

When I view the Zinwell display menu the signal quality usually fluctuates considerably.

Taking this all into consideration can you recommend a suitable UHF/VHF indoor antenna for me?

Thank you very much.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HD74* /forum/post/17509427
> 
> 
> I have settled on the Antennas Direct C-2 antenna as best all around for my area, one station on VHF-Hi, everybody else on UHF. After about a year, performance began falling off on them. Investigating, I found the loops were full of water! Drilled a small weep hole at the bottom of one, looked like it was draining about 3 beers. Seemed to work, once all the water was gone, performance was back. Anybody else experienced this?



Contact the manufacturer for a free replacement.


Water infiltration was noticed on some of the initial production batch and the manufacturing process was changed to correct for that.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rila3400* /forum/post/17509854
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I currently am using a Zinwell ZAT-950A DTV converter box coupled to a Silver Ribbon (???) indoor antenna.
> 
> I am able to receive transmissions from many stations (17) in my area.
> 
> However, I experience frequent signal drops (bad signal msg) which usually are of short duration.
> 
> When I view the Zinwell display menu the signal quality usually fluctuates considerably.
> 
> Taking this all into consideration can you recommend a suitable UHF/VHF indoor antenna for me?
> 
> Thank you very much.



Your symptom is of multi-path, not signal strength problems.


In order to make any recommendation, please provide a TVFool plot for analysis.


----------



## rila3400




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17509996
> 
> 
> Your symptom is of multi-path, not signal strength problems.
> 
> 
> In order to make any recommendation, please provide a TVFool plot for analysis.


 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...bc27ea104a1df6 


Thank you!


----------



## nicoge21




----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rila3400* /forum/post/17510253
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...bc27ea104a1df6
> 
> 
> Thank you!



Uhg! Sea-Tac! You are cursed with four well separated tower sites.


All I can say is "good luck!"


Perhaps someone else has a suggestion for an indoor antenna for you... I'd

suggest a C2 pointed somewhat southerly, but you'll probably miss Fox on VHF 13 with almost anything indoors unless you get lucky.


----------



## uncola

I'm on oahu in hawaii and I tried an rca I got at wallmart.. a flat one.. I only got channel 2.

I'm willing to spend up to $100 on an indoor antenna.. what antenna should I get? willing to mail order

edit: ordered a Terk HDTVO outdoor antenna from amazon. gonna try mounting it on my balcony. I hope this works!


----------



## summer1942

Please help !!!


I live in the area where all stations between 15-30 miles (zipcode 27265). Between Philip silver sensor PHDTV1 and Clearstream convertible C1C which one is better for the indoor.


Thank you.


----------



## SWHouston

uncola,


To tell you the truth, I don't think you're going to be very happy with the HDTVO.

It's very directional, and you'll have to go out and turn it around, to move from your 331° to the 96° locations for your stations.


You might have done better with the...
Channel Master MS2000 


Have a good Day !









S.W.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *summer1942* /forum/post/17536179
> 
> 
> Please help !!!
> 
> 
> I live in the area where all stations between 15-30 miles (zipcode 27265). Between Philip silver sensor PHDTV1 and Clearstream convertible C1C which one is better for the indoor.
> 
> 
> Thank you.



You have both VHF & UHF channels in your area. Both of the antennas you listed are *UHF*-only.


A Terk HDTVi (UNamplified model) would be a better choice. Be aware that indoor VHF reception is sometimes difficult, due to electrical and FM interference, and more difficulty in wall penetration.


----------



## summer1942

Thank you very much for your inputs.


What do you think of HD-360 Omnidirectional Long Range UHF VHF HDTV Outdoor Amplified Antenna from national antennas. It has very good reviews.


----------



## arxaw

Omnidirectional and Long Range is an oxymoron. Long range (high gain) antennas are directional. Omnis typically receive channels equally poorly in all directions.


Always ignore antenna reviews posted on a web site selling a particular model antenna.


Enter your address here and post a link to the results page back here, for antenna suggestions.


----------



## uncola

update: I spent a few hours fiddling with my existing antenna, a phillips svd2750/27 and now I get all the channels I wanted! CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX and the WB/kfve! all I had to do was tilt the UHF antenna all the way down, and flip a switch from low gain to high gain. cancelled the order for the terk hdtvo. I'm so happy now.


----------



## summer1942

Hello


Here is the result from tvfool.com

tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dbc27e08f2fa5ae 


I want to use as an indoor antenna, since it will be used for my tv in family room, I rather have something that not too ugly.


Thanks


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rila3400* /forum/post/17510253
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...bc27ea104a1df6
> 
> 
> Thank you!



A local chief engineer here feels the Winegard SS-3000 to be the best UHF indoor antenna available. It is for both UHF and VHF, but it's Achilles heal is with VHF. Our engineer reports that it's performance is similar to rabbit ears on VHF. It might work for you. KCTS and KSTW are two of your strongest channels. Fox is available on rf 22 as well as rf 13. If you can find a location where rabbit ears, which you can likely borrow, will work for KCTS and KSTW, the SS-3000 could be a solution there. You'll likely need different aims for different channels, but that's OTA reception. The SS-3000 is only around five inches deep and not very tall, but it is over two feet wide. If you have a location facing southeast where you can place this size antenna, it might be just the ticket. Good Luck.


----------



## arxaw

summer1942,

It appears all your stations of interest are UHF and in two almost opposite directions . You might try the antenna deltaguy suggested in the post above this one
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=SS3000 


Indoor reception may be unreliable, particularly for your NBC & PBS affiliates, which appear to be about twice as far away. Aim the antenna toward the NW, in the direction of their towers.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *summer1942* /forum/post/17540181
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
> 
> Here is the result from tvfool.com
> 
> tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dbc27e08f2fa5ae
> 
> 
> I want to use as an indoor antenna, since it will be used for my tv in family room, I rather have something that not too ugly.
> 
> 
> Thanks



The C1C would likely do okay in your situation although the C2 would be a better choice. Install the rear reflector of the C1C and point it to the NW, preferably out a window that faces that direction. You may have to rotate it back to the SE for the other stations but it may get them off the rear lobe.


I'd also try it (C1C) without the reflector as it then becomes bi-directional. The 15 mile stuff would probably be okay, but the 32.2 miles stations would require quite a bit of luck.


Much will depend on how well the signal is able to penetrate the shell of your home after having the trip there.


----------



## a8vdeluxe

So when is someone going to review the "best indoor antenna every invented by mankind" ?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=17563410 



Come on people, what are we waiting for?


----------



## a8vdeluxe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *db130* /forum/post/17489688
> 
> 
> it arrived today and i just tested it out. i have two stations 7 miles away that are relatively weak, 135.000 kW and 500.000 kW that i just could not receive reliably with other antennae. previously i've tried a silver sensor, the RS UFO antenna, and the GE/Jasco 24720(listed in order of effectiveness from worst to best).
> 
> 
> much to my surprise, both channels are coming in at around 70% signal quality with the ANT-102!
> 
> 
> it looks cheap but it works well. the button on the remote for the rotating function got stuck the first time i used it and i had to disassemble the remote to fix it. a single screw attaches the circuit board to the remote control housing and when the button on the remote is pressed, it can flex the circuit board until the button comes out of its intended location and it becomes stuck inside the remote, rendering the button useless. i ended up cutting up a piece of plastic to shim the circuit board against the remote housing so that it does not flex. not a big deal if you are even "remotely" handy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> summary: try the ANT-102 before you spend $50 on the UFO.




I too purchased one for $25 on Ebay. Live about 8 miles away from stations and pick them all up. This thing must be pretty good because I'm getting a reflected signal on the opposite side of the house from where signal is coming from. The remote sucks though - mine gets stuck frequently and has little range making it practically useless (how did you take the remote apart -looks like mine is stucko'd with superglue). So I have to move the antenna 25 degrees for some channels and raise the antenna 3 feet for some other channels. But once I have correct position (does take time figuring them all out) signal is solid - unless a car passes by and interfears with my reflected signal.


----------



## deathnote

I'm trying to figure out an antenna to buy for HD.


Here's my tv fool results: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...bc27b2347973ad 


The only channel I care about is ABC channel 9 because it comes in choppy on my direct tv.


Someone on another forum recommended: http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV1...2980096&sr=8-1 


Any advice?


----------



## arxaw

That is definitely not the antenna you should buy. That is a UHF-only antenna. Your ABC affiliate had stubbornly clung to a VHF channel that is often hard to receive indoors.


Try this specific model, instead.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 

It is VHF & UHF and often works well for nearby stations.


The dipole rods are for VHF channels. The loop is designed to pick up all of your other channels in the UHF band. Extend the rods no more than 15" each and in a wide "V" aimed perpendicular to the towers to the west of you. Putting it near a western facing window would probably work best.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The only channel I care about is ABC channel 9 because it comes in choppy on my direct tv.



Might be choppy because of overload. Ordinary rabbit ears may even overload a 68.7 NM signal. Thats a very strong signal.


----------



## Disaster

I've been buying antennas left and right and returning them about as often. We live in the Detroit region (48304)...within 10 miles of the station towers. Despite how close we are, I've found quite a few UHF antennas that were marginal and many don't do VHF at all...or very poorly.


Finally, I ran into a very cheap unamplified antenna that works better than some of the $100 antennas I tried. It is from Philips (SDV2710/27) and available for $20 @ Target.

http://www.target.com/Philips-Foldab.../dp/B001JE9G56 











With this antenna we get all the major networks including Fox, which is now broadcast over VHF. The rabbit ears pick it up just fine.


As far as UHF is concerned, I get up in the 80% signal strength range from all the major networks. The antenna is directional...but with enough leeway to handle some our towers which span about 30 degrees from our location.


One other tip. Don't automatically pull the rabbit ears out all the way for your VHF reception. Tune the length to your frequency. For 2.1, in our area, I get the strongest signal strength with the antennas only extended about 1/3rd of the way and laid out flat, 180 degrees from each other.


I had bought a huge antenna to put in the attic but found that this antenna works for all our TV's...even the one's on the first floor (with antenna about 6 feet high, on top of entertainment center.)


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Disaster* /forum/post/17599749
> 
> 
> I've been buying antennas left and right and returning them about as often. We live in the Detroit region (48304)...within 10 miles of the station towers. Despite how close we are, I've found quite a few UHF antennas that were marginal and many don't do VHF at all...or very poorly.
> 
> 
> Finally, I ran into a very cheap unamplified antenna that works better than some of the $100 antennas I tried. It is from Philips (SDV2710/27) and available for $20 @ Target.
> 
> http://www.target.com/Philips-Foldab.../dp/B001JE9G56
> 
> 
> With this antenna we get all the major networks including Fox, which is now broadcast over VHF. The rabbit ears pick it up just fine.
> 
> 
> As far as UHF is concerned, I get up in the 80% signal strength range from all the major networks. The antenna is directional...but with enough leeway to handle some our towers which span about 30 degrees from our location.
> 
> 
> One other tip. Don't automatically pull the rabbit ears out all the way for your VHF reception. Tune the length to your frequency. For 2.1, in our area, I get the strongest signal strength with the antennas only extended about 1/3rd of the way and laid out flat, 180 degrees from each other.
> 
> 
> I had bought a huge antenna to put in the attic but found that this antenna works for all our TV's...even the one's on the first floor (with antenna about 6 feet high, on top of entertainment center.)



Thanks for the info. I've been looking for something cheap just like this, because I have cable but need something for when cable goes down. Do you know if there's a way to hook an amp to this antenna, or if there is an amplified version ( SDV2730/27 or this no model # , etc.)? We're about 9-15 miles from the various stations so those that are about 15 miles aways may not come in very well.


Would you happen to know your stations' wattage outputs? That would have something to do with how well it performs for you, and would give an idea of how it may perform elsewhere.

Thanks.


----------



## Disaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clint S.* /forum/post/17599819
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info. I've been looking for something cheap just like this, because I have cable but need something for when cable goes down. Do you know if there's a way to hook an amp to this antenna, or if there is an amplified version ( SDV2730/27 or this no model # , etc.)? We're about 9-15 miles from the various stations so those that are about 15 miles aways may not come in very well.
> 
> 
> Would you happen to know your stations' wattage outputs? That would have something to do with how well it performs for you, and would give an idea of how it may perform elsewhere.
> 
> Thanks.



We are pretty close to the towers...around 10 miles. You can see are range by inputting 48304 @ TVfool.com or antennaweb.org. I am only picking up the "green" range of stations, 166-205 degrees and -22 to -32dbm. I don't see why you couldn't amp it. Having said that, I've never had luck amping any antenna that had a poor digital signal...even with very high quality amps. IMHO, amps are only for long cable runs, where you lose signal from the antenna to your box, or where you have multiple splits and then the amp should be near the antenna side.


Target sold both amped and this unamped version.


This Philips antenna is probably best for people in metropolitan areas, like myself, where they need wide frequency coverage but not great reach. It also pivots in the middle which might help pick up off angle signals but I haven't tried that.


It outperformed my previous favorite inexpensive antenna, the Xmas tree type like this Philips US2-PHDTV1 mostly by virtue of it being less directional and because it could handle VHF which WJBK (Fox local) now transmits on.

http://www.buy.com/prod/philips-phdt...202573624.html 











P.S. Our cable went down during the Superbowl last year. I dug out our Xmas tree antenna and the game came in better than it did over cable. I suspect there is less compression in the OTA HD broadcast vs. Comcast. My neighbor, who also lost his cable was amazed. Cable came back within half an hour but we kept it on the antenna for the entire game.


----------



## Clint S.

Thanks again. I checked antennaweb.org earlier today and I see that (I guess the now "permanent") distances for some stations in my area are now 17 miles away. But they are in the "Blue" area (and are all IND stations except for CW), BUT, two are in the "Yellow" area are also 17 miles away.







I guess they have more power.


So do you know the wattage output of your stations? I guess the weakest one would be all that would be needed.


I don't understand why you're only picking up the Green area, I thought the Yellow area was closer or required a "lesser" antenna? EDIT: Yeah, according to this the Yellow area is the smallest type antenna. http://antennaweb.org/aw/antenna.aspx?color=Green So if you're picking up Green stations, you should be able to get the Yellow.


----------



## Disaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clint S.;17600420
> 
> I don't understand why you're only picking up the Green area, I thought the Yellow area was closer or required a "lesser" antenna? EDIT: Yeah, according to this the Yellow area is the smallest type antenna. [url* /forum/post/0
> 
> http://antennaweb.org/aw/antenna.aspx?color=Green[/url ] So if you're picking up Green stations, you should be able to get the Yellow.



I was referring to the chart at TVfool, where green appears to be the top strongest channels. I receive those with the unamped antenna on the first floor. To pull in the farther stations would probably require an antenna with more surface area and it wouldn't hurt to be mounted higher. TVfool gives a -dB strength which must be related to the power of the station combined with the distance.


The chart at TVfool works like this.


Green


An indoor "set-top" antenna is probably sufficient to pick up these channels


Yellow


An attic-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level and above


Red


A roof-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level and above


Grey


These channels are very weak and will most likely require extreme measures to try and pick them up


The rating system at AntennaWeb.org uses the antenna strength ratings which is nice because you can then shop for an antenna with the correct rating....if you can trust the way manufacturers rate their antennas. I receive all the yellow channels on the AntennaWeb.org website for my area with the Philips antenna. This was not true with other indoor antennas I had tried (some didn't do VHF and many broke up occasionally on UHF.)


I receive specifically, WJBK (vhf), WDIV, WMYD, WKBD, WXYZ, WWJ, WTVS, this is the major OTA networks, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CW and PBS....all run regular high def programming that beats Comcast (lower compression?)


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Disaster,


The CEA color pie chart referenced to at antennaweb.org is for OUTSIDE antennas, not indoor units.


----------



## Disaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17603934
> 
> 
> Disaster,
> 
> 
> The CEA color pie chart referenced to at antennaweb.org is for OUTSIDE antennas, not indoor units.



Ahhh...that might explain why I've never seen the rating on an indoor antenna. Given the chart for my area, the Philips would rate a yellow.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17603934
> 
> 
> Disaster,
> 
> 
> The CEA color pie chart referenced to at antennaweb.org is for OUTSIDE antennas, not indoor units.



Ahhhh. So how would that change for indoor antennae? I would think the chart would be the same, except you might need a larger antenna in some cases. Like if the major stations you want to receive are in the yellow range, for indoor it may move to the next range, green.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Disaster* /forum/post/17603702
> 
> 
> The rating system at AntennaWeb.org uses the antenna strength ratings which is nice because you can then shop for an antenna with the correct rating....if you can trust the way manufacturers rate their antennas.



Yeah I can imagine as with anything else, manufacturers overrate their antenna so if going by a chart it would probably be logical to get one for the next higher range.


Thanks again for all the info.


----------



## Citizen Zero

I've decided to purchase an Asus EHD3-100 tuner card for my computer. I had tentatively settled on getting the Eagle Aspen DB2 clone to use with it...but I read that the FM band falls between channels 6-7 of the VHF band, which would be too low for the DB2 to pick up.


There's nothing around here in the VHF band I'd be interested in picking up, but I guess I could buy a pair of rabbit ears and hook them up to the FM tuner. Or would I be better off getting a VHF/UHF antenna like the Quantum FX ANT-102, which should be above the DB2 in the performance rankings because of its similarity to the Radio Shack 1880?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Depends on where you ar likely to use the antenna? Is it for mobile use or stationary, one location? What is your TVFool at the stationary location?


Yes an QFX ANT 102 would be good for FM so far as I know, it has no FM Trap.


----------



## Citizen Zero

Definitely stationary use. It's going in my room, which is on the top floor of a house which is on top of a hill.


Here's the TVFool:











My folks are sick of paying exorbitant fees for cable so I'm sort of the "test case" to see if OTA is worth the switch. Regardless of what they choose, I'm going to take my antenna with me when I get my own place some time this year. I wouldn't watch most cable-only channels if they paid _me_.


I guess I just find it a little hard to believe that the ANT-102 performs better than the DB2 even though it's much smaller...especially since it isn't exactly a name brand. I can't find anything out about "Quantum" at all. But I'm still a greenhorn at all this antenna business, so take that with a grain of salt


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Its possible that your signals are strong enough to pick up 11 and 13 (VHF HIGH) with the DB2 but iffy.


However you have 3 very powerful UHF stations at the top which will likely overload the amplifier in the QFX ANT 102. It may work just fine for you though, even with some distortion effects from the overloading.


I would get an old discontinued American Made Channel Master 4221 which will probably be enough for the strong VHF High channels and get you pretty far down into the yellow without amplification.


There are some on eBay right now...at a fair price... *here* .


But that is just me, Im antenna crazy like that.


Perhaps the best indoor antenna for you is the *Terk HDTVi*, which is unamplified. Has Rabbit Ears for VHF and FM and also has a nice high gain UHF section, which should get you down into the yellow somewhat.


Im not up on computer tuner cards, but in the past they have been notoriously poor performers. So keep that in mind when working out the total system. For all I know you researched the best computer tuner and the Asus is one of the tops.


PS - Most indoor antenna are made in China with US brand names slapped on them. The Quantum FX ANT102 is a particularly good design, regardly of brandname fame.


----------



## Citizen Zero

The EHD3-100 isn't as well known as some of the other tuner cards, but its reviews seem to indicate that it rivals an actual TV tuner. I'll have to post my feedback in the HTPC forum once I get it.


I decided to poke around for any extra feedback regarding those two antenna recommendations and I happened to come across the "how to build a UHF antenna" thread. It looks like the "mclapp" 4-bay antenna is based on the 4221's design, beats it in performance, and costs very little to make. I love DIY projects and saving money, so maybe I'll try to put one together and see how it does.


It wouldn't work as an FM antenna, but that's alright - I followed the link in your signature to your FM antenna list and I'm guessing it would probably be better to pick something from it.


----------



## Disaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Citizen Zero* /forum/post/17642393
> 
> 
> The EHD3-100 isn't as well known as some of the other tuner cards, but its reviews seem to indicate that it rivals an actual TV tuner. I'll have to post my feedback in the HTPC forum once I get it.
> 
> 
> I decided to poke around for any extra feedback regarding those two antenna recommendations and I happened to come across the "how to build a UHF antenna" thread. It looks like the "mclapp" 4-bay antenna is based on the 4221's design, beats it in performance, and costs very little to make. I love DIY projects and saving money, so maybe I'll try to put one together and see how it does.
> 
> 
> It wouldn't work as an FM antenna, but that's alright - I followed the link in your signature to your FM antenna list and I'm guessing it would probably be better to pick something from it.



Look around, you can find some people that added rabbit ears to the DIY antenna to improve VHF. They bought a cheap UHF/VHF antenna and snipped off the UHF part and attached the UHF leads to their DIY antenna. Voila. Works great.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Actually a well made DIY 4 Bay will work well for FM, use a 30" to 36" wide reflector screen.


You and also add Rabbit Ears to a DB2 (Eagle Aspen clone is much cheaper and just as good) or a DIY 4 Bay or any UHF antenna....using a UVSJ combiner.


You dont have a particularly difficult situation....basic unamplified RE&Loop like the RadioShack 1874 would get you your major networks in Green on your TVFool.


Have fun experimenting.


----------



## Bluelude1

I am trying to identify which type of indoor antenna would work best for my application, but after reading on the subject for hours I am still a little lost. I have attached my map from tvfool and because of the height of my apt just about everything is in the green (with a handful in the yellow) that I really care about receiving.


Can someone help me narrow down a style that would be the most likely to get the job done (I know my distance to transmitter may be a little far). Almost all the channels I am interested in are UHF with WFAA DT being the only Hi VHF.


Thanks in advance


----------



## deltaguy

Bluelude1,


I'd look for a location where a pair of rabbit ears receives ABC. Old-fashioned rabbit ears is the only way I receive a yellow (according to tvfool) vhf-hi station out of S.F. (KGO-7). If you can find a good location for your ABC, an indoor solution is probably doable. Rather than one antenna, you might have go with two. The Official Antenna Topic could even give you instructions on how to make a channel-specific antenna for rf 8. Hopefully, you have a window facing south. Borrow the rabbit ears if you can and start scouting location.


----------



## Bluelude1

Any idea if there is a certain type of antenna would work best for the rest of the channels in my situation?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bluelude1* /forum/post/17671455
> 
> 
> Any idea if there is a certain type of antenna would work best for the rest of the channels in my situation?



ABC is your biggest problem. That's why I suggest seeing if you can acquire it reliably. Amping rabbit ears isn't a always good idea. If you can receive ABC acceptably with rabbit ears, then a combo antenna may do the trick. If not, building, or having someone build, an antenna for rf 8 is the best choice. This would be the two antenna setup. If rabbit ears work for ABC, perhaps a combo (vhf-uhf) antenna will work for you. If not, a uhf antenna for your other channels plus the rf 8 antenna. A single bowtie is a cheap uhf antenna that might work for you but, if you can find a reliable location for ABC, an amped combo antenna is worth trying. Antenna location is critical for vhf indoors. You don't want the antenna close to the television for vhf in your case.


The SS-3000 is hailed as the best uhf antenna by a local engineer here, but it is both vhf-uhf and wouldn't combine well with an rf 8 antenna without an a-b switch.


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/17671514
> 
> 
> The SS-3000 is hailed as the best uhf antenna by a local engineer here, but it is both vhf-uhf and wouldn't combine well with an rf 8 antenna without an a-b switch.



If you use a UVSJ combiner like EscapeVelocity describes above, you can combine a vhf-uhf antenna and an additional vhf antenna without having to a-b switch. The combiner only passes vhf on one side and uhf on the other. I'm using one the opposite way - using the rabbit ears off of a ears/loop antenna combined with a bowtie for better uhf.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bluelude1* /forum/post/17671455
> 
> 
> Any idea if there is a certain type of antenna would work best for the rest of the channels in my situation?



For indoor, I would try a Terk HDTVi . It, and it's amplified twin are about the only Terk antennas that are worth anything, but they often work very well.


Another one you might want to try that works well (for both TV & FM) is the Radio Shack 15-1874 . I would try this one first if you have a nearby Radio Shack, since you can easily return it if it doesn't work well at your location.



.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *partsman_ba* /forum/post/17674741
> 
> 
> If you use a UVSJ combiner like EscapeVelocity describes above, you can combine a vhf-uhf antenna and an additional vhf antenna without having to a-b switch. The combiner only passes vhf on one side and uhf on the other. I'm using one the opposite way - using the rabbit ears off of a ears/loop antenna combined with a bowtie for better uhf.



I tried this a couple weeks ago with some old rabbit ears and a contemporary bow tie. I slid the adaptors onto an old uvsj. Reception on some channels was worse. The flat wire on the old rabbit ears is about one foot long, while the bowtie's wire is over two feet long. I believe this may mean that the two antennas are not in phase with each other. In that particular room, reception of rf 40 is better with RE alone versus a bowtie alone.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Bluedog, assuming that you dont have any high powered FM transmissions and have building materials that arent seriously blocking radio frequency transmissions.


I would try the Terk HDTVa or the Quantum FX ANT 102.


And if you plug it up and still have trouble (with ABC for example) I would get 25 foot of coax and barrel Female to Female F connector splicer and try some different locations looking for a sweet spot.


This should do you well, and gives you a shot at some of the stuff in Red in the same direction at the same distance.


All your Greens can benefit from some amplification...so, I would go for it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

New Antenna spotted at Walmart....

*Lazy Susan Philips*


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/17678497
> 
> 
> New Antenna spotted at Walmart....
> 
> *Lazy Susan Philips*



What's the model #?


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clint S.* /forum/post/17678588
> 
> 
> What's the model #?


 http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/s/s...27_pss_aen.pdf 

http://www.consumer.philips.com/c/tv...132_27/prd/us/


----------



## Disaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/17678497
> 
> 
> New Antenna spotted at Walmart....
> 
> *Lazy Susan Philips*













Bought this antenna. It worked well, but is, of course, a UHF only antenna, so it did not work in the Detroit area for Fox, a VHF station. Check my earlier post. I went with the Philips that included rabbit ears. They both performed similarly with UHF reception.


P.S. The round antenna worked best, in my area, when propped up on it's side.


----------



## Busey

Hey, thank you all for yet another quality thread on avsforum. This site is fantastic.


Brief intro: I picked up a dvr/dvdr with a built in tuner and decided to give OTA a try since many seem to love it. Also would love to get rid of the extra $5/month charge from DishNet.


What I've tried: Both the Philips SDV2115 (as an experimental/quick test unit) and the Terk hdtva (thought a HIGHLY directional antenna would work great for me).


Initial Findings: per tvfool.com, both antennas perform reasonably well for green areas. Outside of that, there is no reception. Also purchased a compass to fine tune the hdtva with no success (lofty expectations.....)


Ignorance/Wishful Thinking: read that many have had success surpassing the hdtva's 45 mile range. I was hoping that I might be able to pick up some fringe channels and get lucky (red area).


My question: By looking at the attached tvfool.com image, would it be possible to successfully pin point the antennas direction to the south (197-200+ degree) with an indoor antenna? Or should I just wait until Spring and invest in an outdoor antenna?


Other factors: One wall (aluminum siding), approx 13 ft. from ground level, pointing south. It's unusually windy today.


Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide. I know you guys probably love newbs







.


----------



## Disaster

A few comments.


Any metal (like your aluminum siding) can block and reflect the signal. Try to mount the antenna so that it "sees" through a window.


Indoor antennas shouldn't be expected to do much better than the green channels. You probably are aimed as well as you will be.


Height is important. Try mounting it higher.


Size is important as well. This is where a decent outdoor antenna can really make a difference.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnla* /forum/post/17678645
> 
> http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/s/s...27_pss_aen.pdf
> 
> http://www.consumer.philips.com/c/tv...132_27/prd/us/



Thank you.


----------



## Busey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Disaster* /forum/post/17692382
> 
> 
> A few comments.
> 
> 
> Any metal (like your aluminum siding) can block and reflect the signal. Try to mount the antenna so that it "sees" through a window.
> 
> 
> Indoor antennas shouldn't be expected to do much better than the green channels. You probably are aimed as well as you will be.
> 
> 
> Height is important. Try mounting it higher.
> 
> 
> Size is important as well. This is where a decent outdoor antenna can really make a difference.



Thanks for the input Disaster. There is absolutely no window facing south/it is not even possible to hit south at an angle (through window). The only way to go higher is the attic route (which I may try). It sounds like it may be best to check out the outdoor threads and see if anyone has/had similar goals. I knew going in that indoor would probably work well for near locals (which they are designed for), but not so much for distance....I just thought maybe I'd get lucky.


Thanks again







.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The only channel I care about is ABC channel 9 because it comes in choppy on my direct tv.



Ordinary, plain rabbit ears are your best bet for channel 9. That other antenna is uhf only, but with your strong signal, it may get it anyway.


----------



## cburbs

Looking for some other option for an antenna - I have tried 3 different ones and none work in my situation. I have it split as one goes to the tivo HD box and one goes directly to my Sony TV.

I have tried this phililps and this Philips Foldable Indoor HDTV Antenna (SDV2710/27) and Philips SDV2780/27 . The last one works OK but I have to move the antenna for certain channels or it goes in and out. This is on the main floor and we live in a 2 story home.


Any recommendations on another antenna to try. I would like to find one locally though I did come across this one Antenna .


I am also attaching the info from TVFool.


----------



## essentialjpm

Here is my TVFool:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7d5289f2b4b091 


needs:

1) indoor antenna, would prefer if it was amplified.

2) doesn't have to look great, but is going to be in the living room so can't be a massive wire mess.

3) important channels: NBC, CBS, ABC, Fox, PBS (anything else is a bonus)

4) i need to order from amazon.com to get it by Thursday with my Prime, it's a gift for someone and the party is Friday.


anyone have any advice? i was looking to go with a Terk HDTVa, Philips MANT510, or RCA ANT1650 unless someone else has some advice, or could recommend which of those three would be best based on my TV Fool (which is based on the person who is receiving the gift).


Thanks!


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *essentialjpm* /forum/post/17715479
> 
> 
> Here is my TVFool:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7d5289f2b4b091
> 
> 
> needs:
> 
> 1) indoor antenna, would prefer if it was amplified.
> 
> 2) doesn't have to look great, but is going to be in the living room so can't be a massive wire mess.
> 
> 3) important channels: NBC, CBS, ABC, Fox, PBS (anything else is a bonus)
> 
> 4) i need to order from amazon.com to get it by Thursday with my Prime, it's a gift for someone and the party is Friday.
> 
> 
> anyone have any advice? i was looking to go with a Terk HDTVa, Philips MANT510, or RCA ANT1650 unless someone else has some advice, or could recommend which of those three would be best based on my TV Fool (which is based on the person who is receiving the gift).
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Of the three antennas you're considering, I'd go with the Terk. However, your friend is going to require multiple aims for all of the stations you wish to receive. The RS 15-1892, the ufo shown on page 1 here, might be a better choice, since it has a remote for changing its aim. Plus, it can be returned if it doesn't work. Regardless of the antenna you choose, you might want to include an F-Coupler and some extra coax, so the antenna can be moved to find a sweet spot for reception and the room. Good Luck.


----------



## Disaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cburbs* /forum/post/17714162
> 
> 
> Looking for some other option for an antenna - I have tried 3 different ones and none work in my situation. I have it split as one goes to the tivo HD box and one goes directly to my Sony TV.
> 
> I have tried this phililps and this Philips Foldable Indoor HDTV Antenna (SDV2710/27) and Philips SDV2780/27 . The last one works OK but I have to move the antenna for certain channels or it goes in and out. This is on the main floor and we live in a 2 story home.
> 
> 
> Any recommendations on another antenna to try. I would like to find one locally though I did come across this one Antenna .
> 
> 
> I am also attaching the info from TVFool.



Have you tried the antennas on the 2nd floor? You are real close to those stations and should have no problems with reception unless you've got something in the way blocking the signal...like a hill or big buildings. Unfortunately, with digital, it is all about capturing the signal fairly cleanly....a noisy weak signal will yield nothing...as will a noisy strong signal. Too strong a signal can actually cause a problem with tuners...as can a signal with lots of reflections. You need to get up into the path of the clean signal and have a big enough antenna to amplify the signal, but the first part is the most important...being in the clean signal path.


----------



## essentialjpm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/17715750
> 
> 
> Of the three antennas you're considering, I'd go with the Terk. However, your friend is going to require multiple aims for all of the stations you wish to receive. The RS 15-1892, the ufo shown on page 1 here, might be a better choice, since it has a remote for changing its aim. Plus, it can be returned if it doesn't work. Regardless of the antenna you choose, you might want to include an F-Coupler and some extra coax, so the antenna can be moved to find a sweet spot for reception and the room. Good Luck.



Thanks for the response. One last question then, is the RS 15-1892 a better antenna than the three I listed, or is it similar but suggested mainly because of the remote for changing the aim? Just wondering.


Thanks.


----------



## cburbs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Disaster* /forum/post/17715980
> 
> 
> Have you tried the antennas on the 2nd floor? You are real close to those stations and should have no problems with reception unless you've got something in the way blocking the signal...like a hill or big buildings. Unfortunately, with digital, it is all about capturing the signal fairly cleanly....a noisy weak signal will yield nothing...as will a noisy strong signal. Too strong a signal can actually cause a problem with tuners...as can a signal with lots of reflections. You need to get up into the path of the clean signal and have a big enough antenna to amplify the signal, but the first part is the most important...being in the clean signal path.



Not with this setup. I have a an older TV upstairs with channel master converter box and cheap antenna and that works fine. But that is because that channel master has a better tuner in it than my Tivo and Sony TV.


I can try it and see what happens.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *essentialjpm* /forum/post/17716209
> 
> 
> Thanks for the response. One last question then, is the RS 15-1892 a better antenna than the three I listed, or is it similar but suggested mainly because of the remote for changing the aim? Just wondering.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



I suggested the ufo for its remote. I'd say the Terk is a better antenna.


----------



## cburbs

Well I had a long cable laying around so I ran the small antenna upstairs and it did help.

So does this mean it is best to get an outdoor antenna and mount it outside?


----------



## Disaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cburbs* /forum/post/17720355
> 
> 
> Well I had a long cable laying around so I ran the small antenna upstairs and it did help.
> 
> So does this mean it is best to get an outdoor antenna and mount it outside?



Yes, but you might be OK if you just added an amp near the antenna upstairs. You are will be losing signal on that long run and the extra boost might be all you need.


----------



## cburbs

Well I can't leave it that way as the cable was run from the living room up the stairs and into the master bedroom as that room points to the tower best.


I do have a very high ceiling in the living room that I could try next.


----------



## emt90




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *essentialjpm* /forum/post/17716209
> 
> 
> Thanks for the response. One last question then, is the RS 15-1892 a better antenna than the three I listed, or is it similar but suggested mainly because of the remote for changing the aim? Just wondering.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



I have both RS and the Terk antennas. As far as antenna's go I would say they are both about as good as it gets with indoor antenna's but for pulling in signals, I would have to give the Terk a slight edge over the RS1892. At least at my location.


----------



## deltaguy

Hey EV,


Have you seen the Winegard FreeVision? 6 inches deep, otherwise 21 inches maximum, and designed for channels 7-69. It looks interesting.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yes, I know someone who is currently testing one.


Thanks for everyone picking up the ball around here. I really need to get back and work on updating the Front Page.


----------



## granathg

I have roamed the Web near and far looking for anyone who can sell me the Quantum FX ANT-102 indoor antenna. I bought one from millionbuy, but after 10 days I had my paypal account credited with the purchase amount - no explanation, just "Here's your money back." What's up with that?


Someone, anyone, please tell me where I can part with my money and get one of these antennas. I found several other places but they all seem to lead back to millionbuy or phimart - dead ends. Surely there's a reputable seller with one of these on the shelf taking up valuable space.

Gary


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *granathg* /forum/post/17824504
> 
> 
> I have roamed the Web near and far looking for anyone who can sell me the Quantum FX ANT-102 indoor antenna. I bought one from millionbuy, but after 10 days I had my paypal account credited with the purchase amount - no explanation, just "Here's your money back." What's up with that?
> 
> 
> Someone, anyone, please tell me where I can part with my money and get one of these antennas. I found several other places but they all seem to lead back to millionbuy or phimart - dead ends. Surely there's a reputable seller with one of these on the shelf taking up valuable space.
> 
> Gary


 http://www.everycaraudio.com/view_pr...d-ANTENNA.html ??


Is that a really good indoor antenna? What's the purpose of a remote with only one button?







You don't seem to be able to change "direction" with it.


----------



## granathg

Coincidentally, I ordered from the site you recommended. We'll see what happens. I'm not hopeful because if you click the antenna images to enlarge them, there's a millionbuy watermark shown. So I expect this order will come back to me unfilled. Maybe the button is like a hat switch, push one side or the other.

Gary


----------



## nicoge21

 http://www.bestbuy.com/site/RCA+-+UH...nna&cp=2&lp=10 


I picked one of these up bevause it was cheap only $10. Upon testing it out I was able to get all my vhf stations and a few uhf in without even extending the rods or moving it or anything with it sitting next to the tv.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *granathg* /forum/post/17827491
> 
> 
> Coincidentally, I ordered from the site you recommended. We'll see what happens. I'm not hopeful because if you click the antenna images to enlarge them, there's a millionbuy watermark shown. So I expect this order will come back to me unfilled. Maybe the button is like a hat switch, push one side or the other.
> 
> Gary



I didn't "recommend" them, that's just a place I happen to find that was selling them. I looked when you asked.










So what about this: Is that a really good indoor antenna?" Or you don't know anything about it? Please let us know what the remote does when you get it.


Interesting about the image, I didn't even notice that. They're not hot-linking to the image from the other website, it's on their server. Maybe they just don't care about the watermark, or maybe _they are_ related in some way.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/17829177
> 
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/RCA+-+UH...nna&cp=2&lp=10
> 
> 
> I picked one of these up bevause it was cheap only $10. Upon testing it out I was able to get all my vhf stations and a few uhf in without even extending the rods or moving it or anything with it sitting next to the tv.



What's your environment like, and how far away are you from the TV stations? Was the reception better after extending the rods and moving it?


----------



## Clint S.

Does anyone know how the Quantum _FM ANT-102_ and _FX ANT-102_ differ? I see the "FX" mentioned in this thread. You'd think the "FM" version meant FM radio, but I don't see any mention of FM radio on the sales webpages. I also can't find their website.


----------



## WackyPacks

My tvfool:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c20155a7ab21af 



Goal is to pick up KSMV-LP or KVMD-DT 31.1 + subchannels as both stations broadcast the same content. Though I sometimes pickup KVMD-DT, it might actually might be KSMV-LP even though the station is says KVMD on my Zinwell 950A box. Currently, my main antenna is just a 7" UHF loop twist-tied onto some cheap rabbit ears and placed on a stand by a window. Cutoff point at which I can get regularly get a stable picture is probably KWHY. Any suggestions for an antenna would be greatly aprreciated. Thanks.


----------



## bigcam406

i just purchased a rca cant 1650 (must be the canadian version) over the weekend.it comes equipped with a 12db amp as well.i was quite surprised.the first scan i did was without the amp and i picked as many channels (10) as with my philips mant 510 (amped).mind you,the signal strength was down a bit to the point of dropout and pixelation occuring occasionally.i plugged the amp in and did a scan and not to my surprise,all of the channels disappeared.im wondering what would be a good replacement amp for this application as the attenna shows alot of promise for my application.im in southern ontario,and i receive most of the western new york stations consistently(within 40 miles) from my apartment,which faces north.


----------



## nicoge21




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clint S.* /forum/post/17831915
> 
> 
> What's your environment like, and how far away are you from the TV stations? Was the reception better after extending the rods and moving it?



It works better with the rods down. It gets a very weak UHF station that's 2-edge 12 miles away which is what I use it for. It gets the same stuff as my amped units get too.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clint S.* /forum/post/17831994
> 
> 
> Does anyone know how the Quantum _FM ANT-102_ and _FX ANT-102_ differ? I see the "FX" mentioned in this thread. You'd think the "FM" version meant FM radio, but I don't see any mention of FM radio on the sales webpages. I also can't find their website.



It will work for FM if the dipole rods are extended ~28.5" each. That length will peak it for the FM band.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WackyPacks* /forum/post/17841737
> 
> 
> My tvfool:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c20155a7ab21af


* This antenna *, if pointed NE, should get KNLA-LD and all the stations listed above it in your TVFool report.


----------



## IDRick

Quick test report with the Winegard FV-HD30


I gave my son a FV-HD30 for Christmas and we installed it in his fourth floor apartment over the holidays. He lives 10 miles away from the towers which are located on top of a nearby mountain. I compared the FV-HD30 versus two rabbit ear/loop indoor antennas (RCA-111 and Radio Shack 1874) using the margin to dropout method. Higher margins are better and a minimum margin of 15 dB or higher is desirable. All three antennas were mounted in the same location.


Test results are shown in the attached graph. All three antennas had acceptable margins to dropout for the channels of interest. However, the FV-HD30 clearly beat the two indoor antennas on both VHF and UHF reception. Is it really 10 dB better than the loop/rabbitear antennas? It was in this test but given the vagaries of indoor antenna installations, YMMV and likely will vary.


Given the positive results, we added a splitter and ran cable to a second tv up in the bedroom loft. Margin to dropout decreased by 4 dB (tv 1) to 6 dB (tv 2) after adding the two way splitter and extra cable run. Signal strengths on the main tv (new Samsung LCD) were 100% for all stations except ch 39 which was 80%. The second tv has a zenith converter box and all stations were ~85 to 90% on it (shows a SS bar only, but no numeric value).


My son and I were very pleased with the positive test results and easy installation! IMO, the FV-HD30 is a viable competitor in the indoor antenna market. It is more expensive than the rabbitear/loop antennas but had superior performance and a smaller form factor than the two indoor loop antennas. Plus, it can be mounted on the wall and painted, if desired.


During the Boise test, I also compared the FV-HD30 to a reflectorless mclapp 2 bay antenna. The mclapp is a DIY antenna with 10 inch whiskers, 9-1/2 inch bay spacing, and 1-3/4" phase line spacing. It costs less than $5 to build. Results are shown in the attached graph. The FV-HD30 had slightly better high VHF performance than the mclapp while the mclapp tended to have higher performance on UHF. These results are consistent with a comparison in my home town, using the same two antennas. Adding a reflector to the mclapp increases UHF reception by ~3 dB but reduces VHF reception by 9 dB. The DIY mclapp 2-bay is a viable option for the cost conscious buyer. It (mclapp 2-bay) is very spartan in appearance and would be more appealing in situations where it can be hidden (near an outside wall) rather than mounted on the wall in plain sight. All tests were conducted indoors. Results may have varied with outdoor testing.


----------



## bigcam406

velocity,i dont have a balcony on my apt so that is why i purchased an indoor antenna.the results look promising so i'd thought i'd tinker with a different amp to see if the results would improve.any recommendations?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigcam406* /forum/post/17849663
> 
> 
> velocity,i dont have a balcony on my apt so that is why i purchased an indoor antenna.the results look promising so i'd thought i'd tinker with a different amp to see if the results would improve.any recommendations?



An amplifier cannot overcome the limitations of a inadequate antenna or signal location, especially indoors.


----------



## bigcam406

im aware that my situation has its limitations on what stations i can receive.the attenna rec'd 10 stations with no amp,i just want a recommendation on what low noise amp that would improve signal quality.in the spring and summer months,i have rec'd between 20 and 30 digital stations on a regular basis with a Philips Mant510,so im taking into account that a) the weather that im experiencing during winter months,b) the fact that this new attenna is sensitive enough in its passive state to perform near or equal to an amplified antenna previously mentioned at this time of year.any suggestions would be appreciated as there are alot of amps out there with huge claims for low noise and high gain.thx


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah, a lot of people use that 4221HD indoors in the window facing Buffalo.


If you wanted to try something a little more indoorsish. I suggest the Terk HDTVa or the Quantum FX ANT 102.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

As I said, an amplifier on an indoor antenna is unlikely to improve anything, especially signal quality. It just doesn't work that way.


There is only a very small margin of signal level in which a low noise amplifier potentially could improve reception. That is when the signal is just a bit too weak (but still of adequate quality) for the noise figure of the tuner but is above the noise figure of the preamp. This is usually a margin of signal strength of around 3-6 dB making it improbably that you'd actually hit this narrow of a target.


Use of a high-gain amplifier on an indoor antenna serves one purpose only: To attract the unknowledgeable consumer to buy the product in the mistaken belief that "more power(!)" will help with indoor reception.


----------



## bigcam406

well,if thats the case,and im not doubting you whatsoever,then why when i use my MANT 510 in its passive state,it doesnt receive any signals at all,yet when i turn on the so called 50db "high gain" amp,i can receive stations from over 40 miles away(at least 10).and that is when the amp is only at half gain.when its at full gain,the signal strength goes up and i can access at least 2 more stations that are on the outer fringe.i can get the same amount of stations from my RCA1650 with no amp,albeit at a lower signal strength,which makes me wonder if a low gain amp would offer any improvement due to the RCA's increased sensitivity.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigcam406* /forum/post/17844737
> 
> 
> i just purchased a rca cant 1650 (must be the canadian version) over the weekend.it comes equipped with a 12db amp as well.i was quite surprised.the first scan i did was without the amp and i picked as many channels (10) as with my philips mant 510 (amped).mind you,the signal strength was down a bit to the point of dropout and pixelation occuring occasionally.i plugged the amp in and did a scan and not to my surprise,all of the channels disappeared.im wondering what would be a good replacement amp for this application as the attenna shows alot of promise for my application.im in southern ontario,and i receive most of the western new york stations consistently(within 40 miles) from my apartment,which faces north.



It's _worse_ amplified??


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/17847636
> 
> 
> It works better with the rods down. It gets a very weak UHF station that's 2-edge 12 miles away which is what I use it for. It gets the same stuff as my amped units get too.



Thanks. So what's your environment like? About how far away are you from the stations, and are there any tall buildings, hills or mountains in the area?


----------



## bigcam406

yes,much worse.


----------



## WackyPacks




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17848368
> 
> *
> 
> My tvfool:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c20155a7ab21af
> 
> This antenna *, if pointed NE, should get KNLA-LD and all the stations listed above it in your TVFool report.




Thanks for the response. So does that mean that my only option for receiving KSMV-LP or KVMD-DT 31.1 is via outdoor antenna? I was hoping that something a little more low-profile would work in my situation.


----------



## holl_ands

In order to receive KSMV-LP on Ch23, you need to reduce the signal level

of Ch24 by steering the antenna. Might work indoors, but much better outdoors.

Indoors, there are multiple reflections to contend with....


KVMD has additional complication of being on same channel as KSMV-LP and

is unlikely to be received due to stronger KSMV-LP. It also could interfere with

reception of KSMV-LP....


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I just saw your report on the Winegard FreeVision IDRick!


That is fantastic! Thanks for the report!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The problem bigcam, is that the RCA isnt really offering any increased sensitivity.


The way it works is, that when you turn an amp off, its still in the pathway of the signal, and thus just acts to actually weaken your signal and thus reception, it acts as an attenuator. The same thing happens with the Radio Shack 1880 and the Terk HDTVa. Turn ther amps off and you get really lousy performance. Turn them on and the superior (to most indoor antennas) elements now are working great and the amp is enhancing performance.


It's a mystery why the RCA 1650's amp isnt attenuating when turned off. However adding and amplifier wont get you to far past the digital cliff, that you are riding with it on the weaker stations, and perhaps overloading on the stronger statinos and actually making it worse.


The answer is to get more gain via the elements capture ability only. And thus the recommendation for the Channel Master 4221HD. This gets you much more gain on UHF via the elements themselves.


But you are welcome to try amplifiers.


Try the KitzTech and the Motorola BDA-S1.....get yourself an FM trap as well.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/17854094
> 
> 
> I just saw your report on the Winegard FreeVision IDRick!
> 
> 
> That is fantastic! Thanks for the report!



Your welcome, EV!










Best,


Rick


----------



## bigcam406

thankyou for the response velocity.i totally understand what your saying.the reason im saying the rca is more sensitive in its passive state is because the amp is detachable,so when i test the antenna in its passive state,the attenna is attached straight to my tivax box.that is when i get decent results.as far as the amp is concerned,im thinking that usually the amps that are included with the antennas are too noisy for any gain,as i have purchased numerous and had dismal results.so im thinking of trying a cm7777,as ive read alot of good reviews when this amp is integrated.


----------



## nicoge21




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clint S.* /forum/post/17851533
> 
> 
> Thanks. So what's your environment like? About how far away are you from the stations, and are there any tall buildings, hills or mountains in the area?



Yes, i'm in the wooded suburbs 30 miles away from most of the transmitters


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigcam406* /forum/post/17858072
> 
> 
> thankyou for the response velocity.i totally understand what your saying.the reason im saying the rca is more sensitive in its passive state is because the amp is detachable,so when i test the antenna in its passive state,the attenna is attached straight to my tivax box.that is when i get decent results.as far as the amp is concerned,im thinking that usually the amps that are included with the antennas are too noisy for any gain,as i have purchased numerous and had dismal results.so im thinking of trying a cm7777,as ive read alot of good reviews when this amp is integrated.



While amps attached to the cheap antennas are somewhat noisy, the noise factor is rarely the reason the amp'd antenna causes problems.


More commonly, the amplifier either overloads easily or goes into distortion for one reason or another. Either will cause the digital signal to be lost or problematic.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/17893752
> 
> 
> Yes, i'm in the wooded suburbs 30 miles away from most of the transmitters



That sounds good, I guess I'll try one of those. Thanks.


----------



## bigcam406

the bottom line is that it doesnt matter what causes the majority of indoor antenna amps to cause problems,their mostly junk.i just purchased a motorola dist amp Velocity mentioned earlier (BDA-S1),signal strength went up quite a bit,and picked up 3 more stations that i usually only receive in the summer.thx for the recommendation Velocity,i appreciate it.


----------



## aerotive

Hey everyone I'm trying to find out if there's an internal antenna out there that will help me pick up a couple stations that are problems for me. I live in a condo without a private balcony so I'm limited to smallish indoor antennas.


Here's my location's tvfool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b32b3200c6dac1 


The stations I have problems with are KFSM-TV and KFTA-DT. KFSM I can almost always get, with the occasional drop out. I do have to futz with my current antenna's orientation from time to time to get it to come in. This station is why I place my antenna is a southern-facing window, otherwise it doesn't come in at all most of the time.


With KFTA I have gotten only the briefest blips of reception, never anything stable or watchable for more than a minute or two.


The antenna I have now is a Philips MANT510. Do you think an ANT-102 would help? If not, another particular indoor antenna that would?


----------



## Surfrat738




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14176948
> 
> *Radio Shack RS 15-1892 - The UFO*
> 
> 
> *aka The Magic Mushroom, The Starship Enterprise, The Frisbee*
> 
> 
> 
> This thing is GREAT! The geek factor is high on this one! LOL! Its freakin sweet! Its like a Smart Antenna without the tuner control interface.
> 
> 
> I bought this one used....and it came with everthing but the instructions. Undaunted, i hooked it up, and found that I could set the channels and move the rotating antenna within the disc and set the positions and gain, pretty intuitively. I later downloaded and printed instructions in order to write this mini review. This one will be longer than others. Although I only have basically 2 different tower locations, this thing rocked, and would be 10 times more useful if I had more tower directions. Non the less, it was useful at my location....and performed excellently. This one was too close to call really with DB2 unamped, RS DA-5200, and the amped RCA ANT1500. Its got a nice backlit LCD readout for the Channel #, Direction #(kinda arbitrary), and Gain Level #. You can choose between 3 gain levels, 1-2-3, or Low-Medium-High, corresponding (according to the manual) to 13db Min, 18db Min, and 22db Min amplifier levels. I tried this out but ended up setting all my channels to high gain for no particular reason other than "let's go full blast...Warp Speed!" There are 12 selectable positions for the antenna within its disc. There are Plus and Minus buttons on the remote which change the gain level. There are also Left and Right arrow buttons that change the direction of the antenna within its disc. Additionally, there is a press and hold button to turn off the LED display backlight, and a number pad to input channels. The remote is pretty small, but fairly simple to operate. All the buttons are the same size, and its not backlit, and its kind of hard to read...but the layout is simple enough, and the buttons large enough to operate. There is one more large button on the remote with the label Store, for storing a group of settings for an individual channel once you have it set up in the right direction and gain for best signal on that particular channel. One thing to note is that when the antenna moves, the motor is audible, but not obnoxiously loud. Kinda reassuring actually, you can hear that its working. On the back there is a 75ohm coax output hookup and an Aux input, and a switch to choose between the antenna and the Aux input....plus the power input, comes with wall wart and 6ft of detachable coax, plus remote, and guide booklet. It has 2 telescoping Rabbit Ears that are adjustable but limited in motion by the disc. I didnt really test them out....nor any of the other units really. They are for VHF reception. This unit does not have an FM Trap, and can be used as an FM antenna via its Rabbit Ears. The disc measures slightly over 12", its a pretty large antenna. There are Left Right Arrow buttons for changing the antenna position within the disc, and Plus and Minus buttons for adjusting the gain on the front of the antenna left and right of the LCD info panel, plus the push and hold button for turning off the LCD backlight.
> 
> 
> Performance.
> 
> 
> I only tested this unit on top of the Oppo 970 DVD player, it didnt make it to the North corner window like the RS Single Bow Tie and the amped RCA ANT1500 and some others did. It worked pretty good, from my original positioning. But later, after I figured out the remote and operation, I moved it some, but still on top of the Oppo to optimize its performance. I found that all my Charleston channels that are clustered tightly to the North East at 45 miles worked best on postion 8 and slightly worse on postion 7 and 9....and my alternate PBS station at 23 miles SW worked best at position 1 or 12....I probably could have centered its performance on one or the other by twisting the unit slightly clockwise or counter clockwise. With a little tweaking, I had this thing running the board on all my channels, but it seemed that the signal strength may have been a little less than the RS DA-5200. My Vizio GV42LF LCD doesnt have signal strength bars....that is why I havent been reporting them.
> 
> 
> How to set the antenna for a channel?
> 
> 
> This is how I did it. I first changed to the desired channel on the Vizio TV. Then I entered the corresponding channel # on the remote which was then indicated on The UFO's LCD screen, in order to set the antenna direction and gain settings to maximize its performance on that channel. Then I moved the antenna direction with the Left and Right Arrows all the way from position 1 thru 12, it became obvious when the reception locked on. Lets say that channel 8 and 7 seemed like the best candidates from the quick run thru the positions. Then I moved up to 9 to check, and it still worked but with pixelation and dropouts. Back to 8 then on to 7 then 6...oops getting worse again. A/B 7 and 8, physically twist or move the unit if you need to, and there you have it. Position 8. Then check the gain level. Boom you are finished. Push and hold the store button, the info on the panel starts blinking, then press the store button again, and its set. You may have to adjust the gain earlier, if you are overloading your tuner. I cant comment on the effectiveness of the gain adjustment.



I am having some issues with this antenna paired with my Sony KDS-60A2000.


I get every channel but 2 and 18. This is odd because I checked and channel 2 tower is right next to channel 6 and 9 tower, both of which come in perfectly. I am in the central florida area, and was wondering if anyone may have this setup and have a suggestion?


Also when I do a channel search throught he TV, it finds 8 analog channels, however none come in.


----------



## aerotive




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/17902007
> 
> 
> This is a reply from another forum, that may be helpful to you aerotive. The short answer is yes, the Quantum FX ANT-102 is a much better antenna than the Philips MANT510.
> 
> 
> You should be in the South Windows. Because your weakest stations are due South.
> 
> 
> 
> Via *DTVUSA Forum*



Thanks for the response & link. I've decided to go with the Radio Shack 15-1892 as it can be easily returned if it doesn't help. I'll do an update after I've tried it out.


----------



## NMUWildcat

Anybody have an idea what model would work best in the 48189 area? I picked up an indoor Phillips model (sorry don't have the model number at work) and get 19 channels. looking to pick up CBC out of Canada........


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NMUWildcat* /forum/post/17909997
> 
> 
> Anybody have an idea what model would work best in the 48189 area? I picked up an indoor Phillips model (sorry don't have the model number at work) and get 19 channels. looking to pick up CBC out of Canada........



For best results, can you post a TVFool link with results for your exact location? Sometimes zip codes alone don't give the best information for you.


----------



## granathg

So the Quantum FX ANT 102 is highly recommended, but is also highly hard to find. Where can I get one - for real?

Mugwump


----------



## EscapeVelocity

eBay has them.


Amazon also has them.


They are also available at millionbuy.


----------



## granathg

Thanks EV. A google search only showed the antenna at millionbuy. I still don't get any hits on ebay or amazon. Back in December millionbuy advertised that they had some and I ordered, but got a refund instead of an antenna. However, I emailed customer service today, they said they had been out of stock but now had some again, so I ordered. It looks good. If the antenna is as good as your eval says, I may be able to pick up Charleston stations. I'm in Raleigh/Durham.


----------



## timhtimh

Hello, and thank you to all, especially EV, who have contributed so much to this topic!


I'm looking for an indoor antenna, but dont' know if I need amplified or not, nor do I know which types would best suit me (yes, I have done lots of reading here







but I would love some input from those more knowledgeable than I am)...


My TVFool info is here: tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db32b47b0c4fdd1 


I am about 20-24 miles from the stations I want to receive; some are UHF and some VHF Hi.


All the stations I want to receive are at 184-187 degrees azimuth (170-172 degrees compass). So this is south-southwest, and I do have a window in my TV room facing south. However, there is a lot of dense residential area/tall trees between me and the towers, and I cannot mount anything outside my home.


With all this in mind, indoor antenna recommendations would be greatly appreciated!


Thank you


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *timhtimh* /forum/post/17918097
> 
> 
> Hello, and thank you to all, especially EV, who have contributed so much to this topic!
> 
> 
> I'm looking for an indoor antenna, but dont' know if I need amplified or not, nor do I know which types would best suit me (yes, I have done lots of reading here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but I would love some input from those more knowledgeable than I am)...
> 
> 
> My TVFool info is here: tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db32b47b0c4fdd1
> 
> 
> I am about 20-24 miles from the stations I want to receive; some are UHF and some VHF Hi.
> 
> 
> All the stations I want to receive are at 184-187 degrees azimuth (170-172 degrees compass). So this is south-southwest, and I do have a window in my TV room facing south. However, there is a lot of dense residential area/tall trees between me and the towers, and I cannot mount anything outside my home.
> 
> 
> With all this in mind, indoor antenna recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
> Thank you



Welcome tim:


Since you are new, I'll post the active link for your tvfool report. It should look like this:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b32b47b0c4fdd1 


Your signals are quite strong; some transmitters are only 1.2 miles away which risk overload with an amp. First try an indoor antenna that is not amplified near the window and has rabbit ears for VHF and a loop for UHF.


What are you using for reception, a digital TV or an analog TV with CECB? Does it have a signal strength indicator to help you locate the antenna?


----------



## timhtimh

Thanks for the reply, rabbit. (Sorry about the non-active link; with my low post-count the forum doesn't let me post active links - a deterrent for spammers, I suppose).


Unfortunately those transmitters only 1.2 miles away are local special-interest broadcasts that I wouldn't watch... all the main networks have towers 20-24 miles away, and a lot of those miles are dense suburbs and trees. Do you think a simple non-amplified rabbit ears / loop antenna would work? I don't have any antennas at all, but I'll pick one up tonight to try if you think it might be enough...


Also, yes I'm using a digital TV (panasonic plasma 54g10), and I believe, according to the manual, it has a signal strength indicator.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Do you think a simple non-amplified rabbit ears / loop antenna would work? I don't have any antennas at all, but I'll pick one up tonight to try if you think it might be enough...



I think it's worth a try because you are not risking much money and some stores allow easy returns. Sometimes it's difficult to predict the results because of so many factors involved. Also, if you hold on to the antenna you will be able to compare it with other antennas that you might want to try.


> Quote:
> .....and a lot of those miles are dense suburbs and trees.



Trees that aren't too close shouldn't cause a multipath problem.


EV has a lot of experience with indoor antennas. Perhaps he will stop by and advise you.


Indoor antennas are affected by the presence of your body. Those that have a reflector screen with your body behind the screen are less affected.


----------



## timhtimh

Thanks for the helpful info. I'm glad to hear that about the trees, and I'll report back after trying the rabbitears/loop...


----------



## da1pnoiboi

Hey guys,

My tvfool is: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3da6531eb7325a2b 

I'm looking to receive these channels:

KEZI-DT

KEPB-DT

KVAL-DT

KMTR-DT

KLSR-DT


I currently live in a single story home, but outdoor antennas seem to be shunned upon by my homeowner's association. I have a couple 2 story homes south of my place, but I don't think they'd be an issue to reception. any recommendations for an antenna I can use indoors would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *da1pnoiboi* /forum/post/17936457
> 
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> My tvfool is: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a6531eb7325a2b
> 
> I'm looking to receive these channels:
> 
> KEZI-DT
> 
> KEPB-DT
> 
> KVAL-DT
> 
> KMTR-DT
> 
> KLSR-DT
> 
> 
> I currently live in a single story home, but outdoor antennas seem to be shunned upon by my homeowner's association. I have a couple 2 story homes south of my place, but I don't think they'd be an issue to reception. any recommendations for an antenna I can use indoors would be greatly appreciated.



Your HOA can go pound sand when it comes to antennas for reception of your local channels or for satellite services. Federal law prohibits them from interfering except in very limited ways. See the FCC's OTARD rules for details.


A WG 7695 mounted outdoors pointed at 160-165 degrees should be expected to perform well.


Indoors? It's a crapshoot.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

timhtimh, the RE&Loop should work.


The first thing that popped into my head though was the Terk HDTVi. Which will give you some extra gain on UHF and may help with tree induced multipath if its a problem. Its not amplified, to avoid overload with your strong signals.


----------



## holl_ands

Hey, recommending the monster Winegard HD7695P to receive a few strong local stations is disingenuous!!!!
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disingenuous 


First try one of the better (returnable) INDOOR, non-amplified antennas (see first post in this thread).

You could also try Amplified INDOOR antennas if they have a Gain control....YMMV....

If not happy with the results, let us know what doesn't work & we'll up the ante....


----------



## arxaw

timhtimh,

Even if you're not interested in or watching a nearby channel, it can overload an amp and negatively impact reception of the other channels that are farther away. Also, nearby FM stations can cause interference with reception of VHF channels (KVIE & KXTV). This may be worsened by amps, particularly those without an FM trap.


Check your FM transmitter locations at http://fmfool.com


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17937581
> 
> 
> Hey, recommending the monster Winegard HD7695P to receive a few strong local stations is disingenuous!!!!
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disingenuous
> 
> 
> ..



Disingenuous? Nope. Just well experienced in trying to fix indoors reception problems. Cynical (#3 at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cynical ) would certainly apply.


I deal with indoor reception issues all the time. The results are so varied, especially when VHF is involved, that I don't even bother suggesting any indoor antennas when asked. Building penetration attenuation and multi-path indoors makes it tough to predict what will work. If you want something that WILL work, go outside with the appropriate antenna unless you want to experiment and see how your luck goes.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That is the conventional wisdom.


----------



## holl_ands

Centris did a survey: 75% used INDOOR antennas and only 13% OUTDOOR with a ROTATOR:
http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/a...-emerges-0609/ 

Of course, this included many analog viewers, primarily watching networks on VHF....

And did not include the insufficient VHF power problem that appeared AFTER the transition....which is

slowly being rectified (or mitigated) with higher power Hi-VHF assignments....


INDOOR antennas work for most DTV reception situations if you are relatively close to the towers

and only want the LOCAL channels, as evidenced in many postings on this thread....but YMMV....

And is less expensive by two or three orders of magnitude....


And there are locations where lots of rebar and/or buildings/trees block reception....

Which does NOT appear to be the case for da1pnoiboi....who ALSO has an ATTIC.....

And even if penetration loss was as high as 20 dB (unlikely), there is plenty of Noise Margin on Ch7, 9 & 13.


PS: There also is no need to put high octane AVGAS into your car if it only needs REGULAR....

Just as home repair and upgrade problems shouldn't be attacked with the same Sledge Hammer....


----------



## timhtimh

Well I picked up the budget RE&Loop model at radioshack ( http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 ).


After experimenting with positioning, I'm getting a pretty strong signal for the channels I wanted to pull in (all the main broadcast networks). My TV's signal meter shows between 82% and 99% signal strength, depending on the channel. I'm not sure what that means, since no decibel number is given, but the picture quality is very good; the 1080i broadcasts are about as clean and clear as satellite/cable HD, so I'm happy.


I'm really glad I asked here and took the advice to try a basic RE&Loop; otherwise I probably would have spent a lot more for no good reason. Thank you to rabbit73, EV, and arxaw


----------



## arxaw

timhtimh,

The RS budget antenna you purchased has nearly always yielded the best results of all the unamp'd antennas I and friends & relatives have tried.


One advantage is that the UHF loop on this antenna is somewhat larger than the loops on many other indoor antennas. I believe it provides more gain for the remaining UHF channels being used for DTV in the US. The coax is also much heavier than the cheap flimsy coax cables on many indoor antennas.


Glad it worked for you.


82% to 99% signal strength is plenty. As long as the DTV signal is strong enough for the TV to lock onto without breaking up, the picture quality will be the same, regardless of signal strength.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I second arxaw's comments.


If you would like to maybe get some more UHF channels down into the yellow and see what is out there, try a Terk HDTVi....its UHF section is 3-4 times better than a loop.


However, you may not like it as much as the Radio Shack 1874 Budget RE&Loop...for other reasons. But it will probably be of interest to you to see what the Terk can bring in, regardless.


So in short, I think that it is worth trying a Terk HDTVi, timhtimh. You will probably have to buy online, though. As I dont know of any Brick & Mortars that sell them off hand.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *da1pnoiboi* /forum/post/17936457
> 
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> My tvfool is: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a6531eb7325a2b
> 
> I'm looking to receive these channels:
> 
> KEZI-DT
> 
> KEPB-DT
> 
> KVAL-DT
> 
> KMTR-DT
> 
> KLSR-DT
> 
> 
> I currently live in a single story home, but outdoor antennas seem to be shunned upon by my homeowner's association. I have a couple 2 story homes south of my place, but I don't think they'd be an issue to reception. any recommendations for an antenna I can use indoors would be greatly appreciated.



Although HOAs cannot restrict antenna installations , if you want to try an indoor antenna, your stations are fairly strong and most are located in two almost opposite directions. A small, inexpensive bi-directional indoor antenna _may_ work. If you have problems, it will likely be with the pesky 7, 9 & 13, which are all in the VHF band and often harder to receive with indoor antennas.


I would try the budget RS indoor . It often works well if stations are strong, and can easily be returned if it doesn't work for you. It's also a great FM antenna.


The loop is for UHF stations. The dipole rods are for VHF stations 7, 9 & 13. To maximize tuning of the rods for your VHF stations of interest, extend the rods in a "V" and no longer than ~13" or so. Extending them out longer would optimize them for lower VHF channels you're not trying to receive.


Your weaker stations of interest are to the South of you. So, the best location for an indoor antenna would be near a South-facing wall, or preferably, a South-facing window. You can add a length of coax to the existing coax on the antenna, by using a barrel splice.


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *da1pnoiboi* /forum/post/17936457
> 
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> My tvfool is: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a6531eb7325a2b
> 
> I'm looking to receive these channels:
> 
> KEZI-DT
> 
> KEPB-DT
> 
> KVAL-DT
> 
> KMTR-DT
> 
> KLSR-DT
> 
> 
> I currently live in a single story home, but outdoor antennas seem to be shunned upon by my homeowner's association. I have a couple 2 story homes south of my place, but I don't think they'd be an issue to reception. any recommendations for an antenna I can use indoors would be greatly appreciated.



You might want to try posting in the local area thread - not active for awhile, but most of the people (besides me) posting there are from Albany/Corvallis.

Eugene/Springfield, OR - OTA 


Looks like they are using outdoor antennas for the most part. KVAL, KEPB, and KLSR/KEVU are all on Blanton Heights at the south end of town for a 38 mile straight shot to you, but KEZI and KMTR are in the Coburg hills and may not be aiming their signal so well for you. I know I can't pick up KOAC with my ears & loop down here. By the way, why are you interested in picking up KEPB? It has exactly the same programming as KOAC as far as I know.


----------



## adorable

 http://www.silverace.com/smartpig/issue7.html 


Here in LA/OC in the 92683 zip code area, I found that this sub-$10 coat hanger project works great!!! I should have started with this vs. buying even those well-known Radio Shack single bow-tie antennas!


I was even ready to spend some $$ on a 2-bay or 4-bay Channel Master for my portable USB HDTV tuner, but then thought I'd try this out first. Awesome reception for UHF for me, but I still need to use rabbit ears for ch 9,11,13.


----------



## motoguy

Well, I too found this site in my search to optimize my over-the-air TV reception. I've already gone to the TVFool site, and this is the report generated:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c572f96df3ac8e 



Based on previous reading, I had kind of decided to go with either the RS-1892 indoor mount, or possibly the DB2 w/ amp attic mount. I have a pretty good amount of room in the attic, and I'm not at all opposed to mounting there. As a matter of fact, if the reception would be significantly better, I'd prefer to mount there. I should be able to run from the attic to the TV without a long run of cable, and fishing down down the wall isn't a problem.


I had almost decided the DB2 was the way to go, until I noticed the local CBS affiliate, KOLR, is a high VHF band. This made me think the DB2 (being a UHF unit) would be unacceptable. So now I'm back to ground zero!


Based on the above report, I'm curious what setup would be suggested. Though I'm not the most fond of it, I do have an existing DishTV unit on the house (non-functional). This could be used to mount an external antenna I guess, as long as the size of the antenna doesn't overcome the Dish mount. Cable run for outdoor mount would be significantly longer than attic or indoor mount.


Attic mount would be relatively painless, and I've got a lot of free space up there. Fishing line down the walls isn't a problem. Single story house, so attic height would probably be 10-15 feet above ground, depending on where I put it.


Or, should I just go with the RS 1892 and be done with it? I'm open to all three suggestions, and would probably prefer to go with the "best value for the time, money and effort".


Suggestions?


----------



## Chris3mes1

Hey everyone I am brand new to this forum, been obsessed on actually getting a HDTV, so been in the flat panel forum, now I finally got one on Sunday, so now here I am with my questions/suggestions for OTA.


I have a standard def receiver through Verizon Fios, I don't want to bother my landlord for a HD box. (cable is included in my rent) Its hooked up by s-video for 480i, and right now I am content with the picture.


I tried connecting direct to the my TV for QAM channels, it recognizes 140 digital channels, about 70 of them are blank, and ABC & CBS are the only 2 that state they are HD. NBC & FOX might be HD but I can't tell










So here is my tvfool link, I am on the third floor/attic apartment in a house 20 miles outside of NYC, same situation as timhtimh, trees & buildings. Will the radio shack Antenna Timhtimh purchased work for me? Just looking for a few HD channels like ABC, CBS, & FOX, and watch cable through S-video in the cable box

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c5728a0d2dea2b 


Also will a RCA Splitter ruin the HD signal of the QAM Channels, I want to run one wire directly to the tv and the other wire to the Cable box?


Thanks for all your help!!!!!!!


**Quick edit** I am on a budget and since its not my home I can't do a outdoor antenna right now


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *motoguy* /forum/post/17958515
> 
> 
> Well, I too found this site in my search to optimize my over-the-air TV reception. I've already gone to the TVFool site, and this is the report generated:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c572f96df3ac8e
> 
> 
> 
> Based on previous reading, I had kind of decided to go with either the RS-1892 indoor mount, or possibly the DB2 w/ amp attic mount. I have a pretty good amount of room in the attic, and I'm not at all opposed to mounting there. As a matter of fact, if the reception would be significantly better, I'd prefer to mount there. I should be able to run from the attic to the TV without a long run of cable, and fishing down down the wall isn't a problem.
> 
> 
> I had almost decided the DB2 was the way to go, until I noticed the local CBS affiliate, KOLR, is a high VHF band. This made me think the DB2 (being a UHF unit) would be unacceptable. So now I'm back to ground zero!
> 
> 
> Based on the above report, I'm curious what setup would be suggested. Though I'm not the most fond of it, I do have an existing DishTV unit on the house (non-functional). This could be used to mount an external antenna I guess, as long as the size of the antenna doesn't overcome the Dish mount. Cable run for outdoor mount would be significantly longer than attic or indoor mount.
> 
> 
> Attic mount would be relatively painless, and I've got a lot of free space up there. Fishing line down the walls isn't a problem. Single story house, so attic height would probably be 10-15 feet above ground, depending on where I put it.
> 
> 
> Or, should I just go with the RS 1892 and be done with it? I'm open to all three suggestions, and would probably prefer to go with the "best value for the time, money and effort".
> 
> 
> Suggestions?



Take down the dish, reuse the coax line (if it's a home run to the TV) and mount one of the antennas below on the mast, if you have good LOS to the East.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7694P 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HBU22 

Either one should work at your location.


Many people have problems with indoor reception of KOLR on VHF 10. VHF doesn't travel through walls well and for some reason KOLR is more difficult than many VHFs to receive indoors. Amplified antennas will only amplify the electrical & FM interference in your area.


For specific info about Springfield, MO reception, check the Springfield thread , although much of it is (rightly deserved) bashing of KOLR 10s horrendous, underpowered signal from their 40 year old antenna.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chris3mes1* /forum/post/17958543
> 
> 
> Hey everyone I am brand new to this forum, been obsessed on actually getting a HDTV, so been in the flat panel forum, now I finally got one on Sunday, so now here I am with my questions/suggestions for OTA.
> 
> 
> I have a standard def receiver through Verizon Fios, I don't want to bother my landlord for a HD box. (cable is included in my rent) Its hooked up by s-video for 480i, and right now I am content with the picture.
> 
> 
> I tried connecting direct to the my TV for QAM channels, it recognizes 140 digital channels, about 70 of them are blank, and ABC & CBS are the only 2 that state they are HD. NBC & FOX might be HD but I can't tell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So here is my tvfool link, I am on the third floor/attic apartment in a house 20 miles outside of NYC, same situation as timhtimh, trees & buildings. Will the radio shack Antenna Timhtimh purchased work for me? Just looking for a few HD channels like ABC, CBS, & FOX, and watch cable through S-video in the cable box
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c5728a0d2dea2b
> 
> 
> Also will a RCA Splitter ruin the HD signal of the QAM Channels, I want to run one wire directly to the tv and the other wire to the Cable box?
> 
> 
> Thanks for all your help!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> **Quick edit** I am on a budget and since its not my home I can't do a outdoor antenna right now



To "share" the single coax input on your DTV, you'll need to use an RF Switch with

lots of isolation between the two input ports, such as:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2049643 
http://www.radioshack.com/graphics/u...968A_PM_EN.pdf 

or Manual High Isolation Coax Switch:
http://www.summitsource.com/ab-switc...95-p-8928.html 


An RF Splitter only provides 20-30 dB of isolation between input ports, which means the

very strong FiOS signals will prevent reception of the weaker OTA signals.

A splitter also might not provide enough isolation to prevent cable signals from illegally

leaking into the ether via your antenna....


Checkout the first post in this thread for EV's ordered list of recommended Indoor Antennas.

Being up in the air on the third floor will help a lot...and you have lots of signal strength,

so the only potential problem might be multipath.


I would try a simple (returnable) NON-AMPLIFIED Loop/RabbitEars type antenna

and if there are (multipath) problems, try the HDTVi....or start with the HDTVi.


----------



## Chris3mes1

Thanks! Tried real quick to use a RCA splitter and it seems to be working, and the HD QAM signal is working


I would rather have a solo hookup by an indoor antenna & avoid the QAM tuner completely, and have the Fios wire going into my cable box


Is this a good starting point for a budget indoor antenna
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077


----------



## motoguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17959124
> 
> 
> Take down the dish, reuse the coax line (if it's a home run to the TV) and mount one of the antennas below on the mast, if you have good LOS to the East.
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7694P
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HBU22
> 
> Either one should work at your location.



Thanks for the info! The dish is mounted to the roof, with (sealed) screws through the shingles. As you can imagine, I'm less than enthused about placing something large / heavy / sail-like on this mount, which might lever the mount out of the roof (or wiggle it enough to introduce leaks). Are these antenna small enough to mount in such a manner, without issue?


I have a great line of sight to the east. It's pretty much unobstructed. I don't mind placing another mount on the soffit somewhere, if needed. I'm just not sure of the weight / size / wind-catching ability of the antenna, and as such, what kind of mount may be needed.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17959124
> 
> 
> Many people have problems with indoor reception of KOLR on VHF 10. VHF doesn't travel through walls well and for some reason KOLR is more difficult than many VHFs to receive indoors. Amplified antennas will only amplify the electrical & FM interference in your area.



So just to clarify, I don't need any sort of an amp or booster, then? These antennas are 80 miles away, so I'm a bit concerned about the signal. Then again, I do reside directly in their home market, so I guess it's safe to assume they want to make sure the signal can reach me...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17959124
> 
> 
> For specific info about Springfield, MO reception, check the Springfield thread , although much of it is (rightly deserved) bashing of KOLR 10s horrendous, underpowered signal from their 40 year old antenna.



Thanks for the link! I'll check it out!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *motoguy* /forum/post/17961721
> 
> 
> ... Are these antenna small enough to mount in such a manner, without issue?



You shouldn't have an issue, using the antennas I linked to, *if* the dish was properly installed with sufficient mounting bolts. I have used "J" mounts several times for the 7694P. One location is _very_ windy.




> Quote:
> So just to clarify, I don't need any sort of an amp or booster, then? These antennas are 80 miles away



Unless I looked at the wrong report, the TVFool report you linked to shows your stations are ~21 miles away. Please recheck your TVFool and post back.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Winegard GS 2200 ancestor is photographed and discussed in the...

*Popular Mechanics June 1971 Issue*


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chris3mes1* /forum/post/17961060
> 
> 
> Is this a good starting point for a budget indoor antenna
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077



It is often a very good performing indoor antenna. The UHF loop is larger than many other indoor loop antennas, which may be part of the reason it often works better than some others.


Last week, a friend of mine installed one of those antennas indoors and is getting stations from 10, 35 and 69 miles away from his house. *He is on a ridge top and has Line Of Sight* to all transmitters. So, your results can and likely will vary. Building materials can also affect indoor antenna reception significantly, especially VHF. He received neither of the VHF channels available in our area.


We had to patiently search for a hot spot in the room, where he could receive all his channels of interest, without having to move the thing around every time he changed channels. This involved installing a longer coax on the antenna with a barrel splice and trying it in different spots in the room. A TV tuner's signal meter is essential in finding the best spot.


----------



## cgello

Any suggestions on an antenna for the following? I am about 40 miles northeast of Atlanta:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c572a6d8f67e0a 


Would I need to amplify to get better reception?


The channels I am mainly concerned with are the the larger affiliates: 2.1 (ABC), 46.1 (CBS), 5.1 (Fox), & 11.1 (NBC)


----------



## arxaw

You need an outdoor VHF+UHF antenna with decent gain. A mast mounted preamp would likely not help unless you had a very long coax run or were splitting to multiple TVs.


If it were me, I would try a Winegard HD7696P antenna . Others may likely post different suggestions.


Aim ~244° W/SW.


----------



## nicoge21

40 miles is overkill for indoors. Might wanna look at an attic setup our outdoors if possible.


----------



## deltaguy

I bit. I gave it a shot earlier this week versus 3 other antennas and tuners. I don't have fancy measuring devices. Here are the results:


1 - Versus the classic three-piece combo, the FV was a winner on UHF, but was not the equal to rabbit ears on VHF. My test was KGO (rf7). It locks with rabbit ears, but not a peep or pixel from the FV. The converter was at about 50% with RE, 25% with FV.

2 - Set 2 is having problems with rf40. I tried the FV versus RE alone. For rf40, RE are currently outperforming a bowtie. Unfortunately, the FV did no better. In another anomaly, the FV beat RE for rf10, but had inferior performance on rf9. 9 and 40 share the same Walnut Grove antenna. Maybe that's the cause.

3 - Versus the amped combo antenna, the FV won on 6 out of 9 UHF channels, but had lower numbers on VHF. One UHF (19.1) had zero amped, but 40% and watchable with the FV.


Fox40 and KGO (on set 1) and KVIE (on set 2) are what keeps the FV from being the better choice of antenna here. The FV has a better chance at being set it and forget it. While the FV had lower VHF numbers, I saw no dropouts, except on set 2 (KVIE)


I'll have to try this again in the spring.


----------



## arxaw

What is an FV?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Winegard FreeView?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/17986160
> 
> 
> Winegard FreeView?



That's the one. Walnut Grove is about 30 miles away. I've got aluminum backed insulation and trees in the way. KGO is about 45 miles. I'm convinced that is a reflection from a substantial hill less than a mile away.


----------



## arxaw

Foil-backed insulation is sometimes a death blow for indoor antenna reception. And nearly always, for stations still clinging to a VHF channel assignment.


----------



## deltaguy

VHF (hi) has been the best and most reliable signal for decades here. That has not changed. Tv1 and tv3 get both rf9 & rf10 just fine all of the time. Tv2 is in a tough room with less glass and placement options. I was hoping the FV would solve rf40 better actually. How rabbit ears do better on that one is a mystery. RE perform much worse and not at all on some of the Walnut Grove UHF channels.


----------



## OatShit

I'm trying to decide between the Terk HDTVa and the RS 1892. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in a basement apartment in a smallish town.










My TV Fool report is attached.


Most of the major networks have a low-power repeater in the area, except for CBS/CW which apparently only broadcasts from their main tower >50 miles away. K15CN is TBN (probably won't be watching much







), K51GC is ABC, and KSNL is NBC. Looks to me like CBS and CW are probably out of the question, and Fox might be iffy as well.


Since the towers are in different directions from me, I was leaning toward the 1892 since it's omnidirectional. Most reviews I've seen that have a preference have said the Terk is a bit better, though. Other than CBS it looks like they're all UHF so not much concern about VHF.


Any suggestions appreciated. (Other than 'move' or 'get cable' anyway.







)


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/17990360
> 
> 
> VHF (hi) has been the best and most reliable signal for decades here...



DTV VHF is often more difficult to receive indoors than DTV UHF or analog VHF. This is even more true if you're dealing with foil backed insulation, metal roofs or windows with low-e glass.


----------



## Chris3mes1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17978537
> 
> 
> It is often a very good performing indoor antenna. The UHF loop is larger than many other indoor loop antennas, which may be part of the reason it often works better than some others.
> 
> 
> Last week, a friend of mine installed one of those antennas indoors and is getting stations from 10, 35 and 69 miles away from his house. *He is on a ridge top and has Line Of Sight* to all transmitters. So, your results can and likely will vary. Building materials can also affect indoor antenna reception significantly, especially VHF. He received neither of the VHF channels available in our area.
> 
> 
> We had to patiently search for a hot spot in the room, where he could receive all his channels of interest, without having to move the thing around every time he changed channels. This involved installing a longer coax on the antenna with a barrel splice and trying it in different spots in the room. A TV tuner's signal meter is essential in finding the best spot.



I picked up the radio shack antenna, and it worked fine when I temporarily put it by the window, otherwise any other location not all main channels came in, so due to my small apartment I don't have too many options to place the antenna


Got a nice shock when I went to move it once.


I am going to stick with the QAM channels, I need to split the wire coming from the wall,

one going directly to the tv, and the other going to the cable box, are there more affordable option from what you posted in your earlier post?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chris3mes1* /forum/post/17992317
> 
> 
> ...Got a nice shock when I went to move it once.



Certainly not the fault of the antenna. You have a voltage leak from your TV or a grounding problem somewhere. You should resolve this issue before continuing further.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chris3mes1* /forum/post/17992317
> 
> 
> I am going to stick with the QAM channels... are there more affordable option from what you posted in your earlier post?



I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OatShit* /forum/post/17990883
> 
> 
> I'm trying to decide between the Terk HDTVa and the RS 1892. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in a basement apartment in a smallish town.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My TV Fool report is attached.
> 
> 
> Most of the major networks have a low-power repeater in the area, except for CBS/CW which apparently only broadcasts from their main tower >50 miles away. K15CN is TBN (probably won't be watching much
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), K51GC is ABC, and KSNL is NBC. Looks to me like CBS and CW are probably out of the question, and Fox might be iffy as well.
> 
> 
> Since the towers are in different directions from me, I was leaning toward the 1892 since it's omnidirectional. Most reviews I've seen that have a preference have said the Terk is a bit better, though. Other than CBS it looks like they're all UHF so not much concern about VHF.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions appreciated. (Other than 'move' or 'get cable' anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )



Except for K51GC & KSNL47, you will likely need an outdoor antenna to get anything else.


Since the rat shack budget antenna is returnable, I would try it first, if you want to attempt indoor basement reception, unless you have a local place to buy the terk, that will let you return it. Some people report good luck with the terk hdta, but the on one I tried, the piece of coax that came with it received more TV and FM channels than the antenna itself. Don't know if it was defective or not, but I returned it.


YMMV.


----------



## Chris3mes1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17993613
> 
> 
> Certainly not the fault of the antenna. You have a voltage leak from your TV or a grounding problem somewhere. You should resolve this issue before continuing further.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.



Sorry I was referencing this response to me last week



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17959466
> 
> 
> To "share" the single coax input on your DTV, you'll need to use an RF Switch with
> 
> lots of isolation between the two input ports, such as:
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2049643
> http://www.radioshack.com/graphics/u...968A_PM_EN.pdf
> 
> or Manual High Isolation Coax Switch:
> http://www.summitsource.com/ab-switc...95-p-8928.html
> 
> 
> An RF Splitter only provides 20-30 dB of isolation between input ports, which means the
> 
> very strong FiOS signals will prevent reception of the weaker OTA signals.
> 
> A splitter also might not provide enough isolation to prevent cable signals from illegally
> 
> leaking into the ether via your antenna....



The setup I want to do is take the cable wire from the wall, have it go into a splitter. Then have one wire going directly to the TV for Clear QAM channels, and then I will use the add/skip feature to hide the channels that are blank, and mainly use this for major network HD channels.


The other wire from the splitter will go to the cable box, and then connect the cable box to the HDTV by S-video for the cable channels. Then all I have to do is switch inputs on the remote to go back & forth.


Is there a special type of splitter I need? The ones posted above I don't think are what I am looking for in my situation.


I am using a RCA splitter right now, and it seems to be working okay.

Right now on the Clear QAM channels the signal is 100% all the time & the dB SNR (Signal noise ratio) is always in the high 30's (not sure what this is for?)


also I will have a coax wire going from the cable box, to a vcr and then to another tv in a different room, the 2 rooms are 10 feet from one another, just throwing this in just in case it effects the main HDTV.


----------



## holl_ands

To split the signals on a cable coax, simply use any of the readily available RF Splitters.

Since you're dealing with strong signals to begin with, they're all about the same. Just

make sure to use splitters rated for 870 MHz (or higher)...preferably 1 GHz.


Digital Cable signals need to be 34 dB SNR....or higher....max is about 38 dB.


PS: Your question should have been asked in a CABLE thread....this thread is for OTA antennas....


----------



## Chris3mes1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17999281
> 
> 
> To split the signals on a cable coax, simply use any of the readily available RF Splitters.
> 
> Since you're dealing with strong signals to begin with, they're all about the same. Just
> 
> make sure to use splitters rated for 870 MHz (or higher)...preferably 1 GHz.
> 
> 
> Digital Cable signals need to be 34 dB SNR....or higher....max is about 38 dB.
> 
> 
> PS: Your question should have been asked in a CABLE thread....this thread is for OTA antennas....



Thanks for the info, I am all over the place. I know I went from asking about antennas to hijacking this thread for my cable info


Can you link me to a main cable thread if there is one?


----------



## holl_ands

NON-HDTV Cable Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=35 

Oftentimes, your problem is found by searching for a particular piece of equipment.


If it is HDTV related, suggest trying a forum search first...then try

looking through:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=6 

Also be sure to locate and subscribe/bookmark your LOCAL thread...


----------



## OutOfTouch

Hey all, I've been reading up on various antennae topics here for a while now, and based on the incredibly helpful information laid out by EV, I went out and bought a RS DA-5200 a few months ago. I am using it with the included inline amp. It replaces an unknown model indoor loop & ears set that I had from forever ago, and is a HUGE improvement over that old piece of junk. I can now pick up every broadcast network anyone's ever heard of. However I still experience audio/video dropouts on 19.1 (CBS) and audio dropouts on 8.1 (FOX). I live near the Cleveland area and am not all that far from the transmitter towers... 14 miles at the most IIRC.


My location, if it helps, is:

41.364272,-81.952576


I have the antenna mounted about 14 feet above ground level out on my apartment's balcony. It's aimed as close to due east (direction of the transmitters) as I was able to get it by eyeballing. I can't figure out what's causing my intermittent signal problems on those two channels.


Things I have noticed that may or may not have anything to do with it:

1) If I remove the inline amp from the setup, CBS and FOX go away with no hope of coming back. All other channels still seem to come in pretty well, no noticeable quality loss to my eyes. Is the DA-5200 known for being weak on VHF-Hi? Should I look into buying a different antenna?

2) I'm not splitting the signal at all, and I tried to keep the cable runs as short as I could. Signal runs from DA-5200 through 16 ft of coax to the inline amp (it had to be located indoors), then through ~25ft of coax to the back of my TV. There's about 7 feet of extra cable wound up behind the TV, but they don't sell prepackaged 18ft coax to my knowledge.

3) The trees to my east are approx 30ft tall, if I had to guess, and there's also a north-south running power main running across towers out in the clearing between my apartment and the treeline.

4) The balcony may not be the most advantageous outdoor location for this (though it's the only outdoor location available to me). The right (east) side of it is a brick wall. Don't know if I'd be able to mount anything out in space off the railing, it'd probably depend on the weight of it. For what it's worth, I've mounted the DA-5200 on the left side of the balcony facing to the right.

5) Multipath...? Doesn't seem like it'd be a problem since I'm hardly in what would be considered an urban area (I see deer nearly every day on my way to work). Clearly I don't know enough about this stuff to make an informed judgement regarding multipath, though if someone else is, I'll be happy to describe everything in extreme detail.


Any pointers or help with this would be greatly, greatly appreciated. I'll be incredibly sad if the channel drops right in the middle of a Reggie Wayne touchdown reception late in the 4th...


----------



## texas_nightowl

Hi everyone. I'm looking for some help in choosing and setting up an indoor antenna. I did read the first 20 pages of this thread last night, really, so hope I might be forgiven in now skipping to the end.


I'm trying to ditch Time Warner cable in favor of OTA. I only had broadcast cable with TWC anyway and their constant rate hikes have finally really *angered me*. My increase this time was 20%.


Anyway, here is my TVFool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c7232209c2c331 


Of those channels listed, the ones I actually care about are:

WRAL (CBS)

WTVD (ABC)

WNCN (NBC)

WUNC (PBS)

WRAZ (FOX)


Now, part of my problem is the fact that WUNC is an opposite direction from the others. Also, if I am understanding right, I have one VHF channel...WTVD which is at 11.


About my location: The location on the report is accurate. Instead of using my address I took my lat/long from my iphone and converted to decimal for tvfool. The location on their maps is accurate where my address was a tiny bit off.


I am in a first floor apartment. My apartment runs almost directly N/S. The living room windows face basically directly E. The exterior of the apartments are vinyl (?) siding. I do have a row of trees directly behind me (to the E) running parallel to the building. I could potentially mount something on my deck, but don't know what the best way to get the cable into the apartment would be...do you just drill a hole through the siding and wall into the living room or what?


I do have an antenna that I purchased from Monoprice. It is this one:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 


It came with a little amplifier. I have been mostly experimenting with the amplifier turned on. I have the antenna mounted to a torchiere light pole (plugged in but turned off) in the living room near the windows and with the front face of the antenna pointed roughly SE. I seemed to have really good stable signals Sat. evening...I watched WRAL for an hour with no glitches and WNCN for 2 hours with no glitches so thought everything would be great. But then last night WRAL was extremely glitchy, blocky, dropping out. Weather was OK last night but we did have a cold front coming thru so it was maybe a little windy. I was able to get WTVD (ABC11) stabilized and was able to watch Castle with maybe only 1 or 2 noticeable glitches.


I did briefly experiment with the amplifier off. When I did that, it seemed like only WRAL and WRAZ were able to come in at all. The signal strength as given by my TV (Panasonic Plasma) was varying from 30-50% but WTVD, WNCN didn't seem to pick up. So, the amplifier got plugged back in.


After doing some reading here last night, I'm considering swinging by RadioShack and picking up the budget RE&Loop to try and see what I get. Also, am I understanding things right that you can use a splitter as a combiner? So could I really take the splitter I have and turn it around and connect two antennas into it with the former input becoming the output to the TV?


Sorry this post ended up a little long. I wanted to try to detail what I've done/where I'm at.


Also, the monoprice antenna does seem to be picking up WUNC but the signal is def. weaker than the other channels.


And, after Castle last night I switched back to WRAL for the news. Despite showing a fairly strong signal (again as measured by the TV), it also fluctuated quite a bit and would drop or have a bit of blockiness. The signal was showing mostly in the 90's, but would drop momentarily to the 70's or 80's or drop out altogether instantaneously.


----------



## rabbit73

*OutOfTouch*:


Based on the location that you have given, your tvfool report looks like this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c72308de4176c5


----------



## OutOfTouch




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/18007462
> 
> *OutOfTouch*:
> 
> 
> Based on the location that you have given, your tvfool report looks like this:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c72308de4176c5



Thanks for the link, Rabbit. So it looks like I've at least got my antenna pointed in the correct direction to get most of my locals, including the two I'm having trouble with. Doesn't look like there's anything I can do to position it any better. According to that TVFool report, it looks like I should be able to get those stations fairly easily, since they're green.


This would lead me to believe that either I'm getting multipath due to the trees/buildings nearby or that the DA-5200 is just weak for VHF-Hi. Any way to know for sure which it is? Are there any recommended, somewhat compact, outdoor antenna for picking up VHF-Hi and UHF equally well AND eliminating multipath?


----------



## texas_nightowl




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18007895
> 
> 
> 
> If you also want WUNC, you'll probably need a good UNamplified outdoor antenna.



Well, given the direction WUNC is from me, outside is not an option. However, being that WUNC is west from me, the front bedroom/office has windows that face west. I could maybe potentially mount an unamplified antenna (DB2 seems popular?) to the window and then run cable to the living room.


----------



## OutOfTouch

Well, thought I'd come back and share my results. Talked with arxaw a bit and determined that the RCA ANT751 would suit my VHF-pulling needs. I got it yesterday in the mail, and today went out to obtain mounting materials. It comes with a J-mount, but there's nothing on my apartment balcony to mount that to (it's all that fake PVC-like railing stuff).


So long story short, I got the antenna set up today. It's an obviously superior performer on VHF, probably about on par if maybe just slightly worse UHF compared to my RS DA-5200. However, given the setup of my apartment (i.e. brick wall between balcony and broadcast towers, necessitating sort of an odd mounting situation), it's just not feasible to leave it up. It was hanging 2-3 feet out in space off my balcony and, in addition to being kind of an eyesore, it was also a wind hazard. It did, however, easily pull in the stations I told arxaw I was trying to get, and did so without an amplifier.


I've decided that I'll just keep it, and if I move (hoping to get a house sometime in the next 1-2 years) I can use it then. Awesome antenna, less-than-ideal living/mounting situation.


Thanks arxaw for your time and help, it's greatly appreciated. And I don't feel as though I wasted my money, as this entire experiment still cost less than a month of basic cable where I live, plus I get to keep all the knowledge gained and materials involved.


----------



## arxaw

Glad the antenna worked. But I'm sorry you don't have a very suitable location to mount it.


If the FCC had gotten rid of VHF for DTV, people wouldn't be having antenna problems such as yours.


----------



## holl_ands

*EV:* Your antenna comparison spread sheet (see first post) only lists UHF channels.

Now that we have "transitioned", is there an equivalent comparison for Hi-VHF

performance so we can figure out which of the several RabbitEar antennas (et. al.)

employ the "best" SWR matching networks???


----------



## marksj

I have done some research and this is what I have found so far:


#1. Here is fools report http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...72436bcd5bf4dd 


#2. I first tried RS budget antenna, stations I cannot get

4.1

6.1

26 is poor


#3.Stations I get

8.1

8.2

8.3

18.1

18.2

24.1

24.2


I have a 2 story house but attic is very small,not best option.I had a mounted Direct TV dish(not used anymore) mounted on the northwest corner of the house 15 ft off the ground.I can home run a line from it,best option.Since I am returning the RS antenna would they have a good option?Thanks for any help


----------



## marksj

Just contacted the TV station to ask them about my problem.They changed their setting 3 mths ago,along with the other local channel.I rescanned channels, and now I am able to pick up both channels that I was unable to get,off an old antenna in the attic.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18045967
> 
> *EV:* Your antenna comparison spread sheet (see first post) only lists UHF channels.
> 
> Now that we have "transitioned", is there an equivalent comparison for Hi-VHF
> 
> performance so we can figure out which of the several RabbitEar antennas (et. al.)
> 
> employ the "best" SWR matching networks???



Unfortunately I dont have many of the antennas I tested as I cleared many of them out and was selling them to finance new antenna purchases as well.


That is a good question though.


Rabbit Ears of Many Makes

Philips MANT950

Winegard FreeVision

Winegard HD 1080

Winegard GS-1100/2200

Digitenna Metro/Suburban

RCA ANT751


----------



## Tandrin

Tremendous thread!


I thought I could get away with a Terk FDTV2 to pick up stations in my area but I can't get the stations out at 20 miles. I tried a Terk HDTV last year and got a few more but the antenna always need to be repositioned. The


----------



## EscapeVelocity

You should probably be doing better than you are.


You need VHF High as most of the majors are on VHF High.


The Terk FDTV2 isnt good for VHF High.


I suspect that you have building material problems. What is your building made of? Brick, stucco, metal siding or roofing, tiles?


The logical step up from Rabbit Ears would be the


Digitenna Metro/Suburban

RCA ANT751


however with building material problems, they wont solve that.


A basic Rabbit Ears and Loop should be doing well for you.


----------



## Tandrin

Thanks for the quick response. House is made of wood with a lofted ceiling (antenna is is on second floor loft) and a lot of windows. The roof however is made of metal and sit low on a lake with a hill behind me. This is rural Alaska and the topography here is pretty flat. I was assuming that I was getting 2, 7, 10, and 12 because of the 2 floors of windows and the others were not coming in because of direction.


I was hoping to keep the antenna indoors but doesn't sound like that may be an option.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

So you are sandwiched between 2 metal roof sides?


Is one of the metal roofs between you(the antenna) and the transmissions which are coming from South and South East? If you have a peak in that direction on one of the gable ends then try the antenna there.


Still you should get an antenna with Rabbit Ears.


----------



## Tandrin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/18117854
> 
> 
> So you are sandwiched between 2 metal roof sides?
> 
> 
> Is one of the metal roofs between you(the antenna) and the transmissions which are coming from South and South East? If you have a peak in that direction on one of the gable ends then try the antenna there.
> 
> 
> Still you should get an antenna with Rabbit Ears.



I am sandwiched but the the signals I am receiving are coming form the opened windowed side. In lieu of going to an outside antenna (because of cable routing issues) which rabbit eared antenna do you recommend?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

It would help if I could see your location. What kind of angle do you have to the South South East through the windows? Do the windows face directly South South East?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

You probably have high R value windows in Alaska.


I would try an amplified antenna, like the Quantum FX ANT 102. Or put an amplifier on an indoor mounted RCA ANT751 which gives you much higher gain on VHF High than Rabbit Ears. Try the RCA ANT751 indoors without amplifier first. You can get them at Walmart and they have an easy return policy.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I would combine that with Motorola BDA S1 or better yet a KitzTech KT 100VTG amplifier.


----------



## arxaw

EV is correct. TV & radio signals, particularly VHF channels, do not easily pass through Low-e glass windows, common in insulating or energy-star windows. You may need an outdoor antenna.


+1 on the RCA ANT751


----------



## Tandrin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18120133
> 
> 
> EV is correct. TV & radio signals, particularly VHF channels, do not easily pass through Low-e glass windows, common in insulating or energy-star windows. You may need an outdoor antenna.
> 
> 
> +1 on the RCA ANT751



Thanks to both of you for you guidance. I guess the outside antenna was inevitable. I was just trying to avoid the creative solutions I came up with to route and hide the coax.


----------



## Tandrin

Would the RCA ant751 work for HD radio too?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

It would be a decent FM antenna, yes.


----------



## Tandrin

So if I wanted to have two coaxs coming of the rca751 would it be better to get a Motorola s2 as the splitter or get a s1 and split afterwards to the tv coax and HD radio coax?


----------



## holl_ands

In modeling the RCA ANT751 (aka EZHD) in 4nec2, I started with a simplified approach,

using simple tubular elements...which will be just fine to calculate Lo-VHF performance.


Raw Gain across Ch5, Ch6 and FM Band was about 2.5 dBi with a bi-directional pattern,

but SWR was extremely excessive. So, much worse than RabbitEars....


Demonstrating that most any piece of metal is going to act as an antenna...although

perhaps not a GOOD antenna.....YMMV.......


So ANT751/EZHD may pick up local signals, but probably has difficulties with weaker signals....


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tandrin* /forum/post/18140913
> 
> 
> So if I wanted to have two coaxs coming of the rca751 would it be better to get a Motorola s2 as the splitter or get a s1 and split afterwards to the tv coax and HD radio coax?



If you are putting this antenna outside, I woulding use an amplifier, if you are trying to use it inside behind "Low e" windows, then I would use an amplifier.


You can run one cable and use a Winegard CA 8800 FM Band Seperator to split the FM band from the Television bands, which only has an insertion loss of less than 1 dB, where-ever convenient.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

A better antenna for FM which will give you good figures on VHF High and UHF as well is the Channel Master 3016. Search EV's Guide to FM & HD Radio Antennas in google, for more FM Antenna choices, but remember you should put the antenna outside as it will be negatively impacted by the metal roofing and the "low e" windows as well.


----------



## DougFunnie13

I've pretty much read this entire thread and was wanting to get some help on deciding on an antenna. I currently am using a RCA 1450 and it pulls in most of my main stations. I have trouble with the KOLR (which is common since its VHF, I guess) and sometimes the PBS and KSFX.


I am really wanting to stick with an indoor antenna if possible. Although I do have a old dish from the previous owner out on our fence that I could place an antenna next to and use the cable if an indoor won't work.


Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread..especially EV.


Here's my TV fool info:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...27ee8aa3e50c5a


----------



## arxaw

KOLR's transmitter antenna is 40 years old and may be part of their problem, since so many people have problems receiving that pesky VHF channel. Indoor antennas make it difficult, at best. That RCA antenna you're using is probably not the best choice, and the amp is probably just adding more problems to KOLR 10 VHF reception.


A conventional rabbit ear/loop antenna _may_ work better. I would try this model , since it often works well and you can return it if it's no help.


But you probably need an outdoor antenna to solve your problems. If the dish mount has line of sight to the east, you can just remove the dish and clamp an outdoor antenna to it. This one should be all you need:
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1 


You may even be able to reuse the dish coax, if it's a homerun to where your TV is. With just a little effort, you should be able to get reliable reception, without mucking with an indoor antenna.


----------



## DougFunnie13

Thanks for your help arxaw. I'll give that radio shack one a try tonight and see. The RCA actually doesn't do horrible...not sure on signal strength, but it comes in _most_ of the time. (Guess i should consider myself lucky after reading some posts in the springfield, mo thread)


But I bought a new TV for the kitchen and was going to use it out there and therefore was needing a new antenna for the living room and thought I would see if there is something better that would increase the strength.


Also, where they dish is in a spot where it can be pointed to the east so that may be plan B. I think I'd have to re-run the cable but its just in the crawspace so I think I can handle that and wouldn't have to do any drilling. Think it would still work if its only up 6' and next to the house? Here's my attempt to draw it: X=dish North =


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DougFunnie13* /forum/post/18167224
> 
> 
> I'll give that radio shack one a try tonight and see...



Hopefully, it will help. But VHF has a hard time penetrating some buildings' walls and there are many electronic devices in your house that can wreck indoor antenna reception. So....



> Quote:
> Also, where they dish is in a spot where it can be pointed to the east so that may be plan B. I think I'd have to re-run the cable but its just in the crawspace so I think I can handle that and wouldn't have to do any drilling. Think it would still work if its only up 6' and next to the house?



With your TVFool results, it should work. Antennas ~6' off the ground sometimes even get a bump in signal strength from the earth's surface.


A simple outdoor antenna setup would be your best way to fix it & forget it. You could probably even split the coax to two TVs and still have sufficient signal.


.


----------



## TimPFla

Hey guys,

I am soon getting my first LCD Television but I am lost.. I am looking for a good indoor antenna because I won't have cable for a while.. I live about 20m from the tv stations.... With that said, I can't put a outdoor antenna because I live in a apartment and the landlord won't allow it... I am on the bottom floor of a 2 story building in the back half... Any help would be greatly appreciated


----------



## arxaw

TimPFla,

Please post a link to the TVFool results for your address. Your address will *not* display on the results page.


----------



## TimPFla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18171822
> 
> 
> TimPFla,
> 
> Please post a link to the TVFool results for your address. Your address will *not* display on the results page.





Here it is:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...27ee558198c89a 



Thank you so much for helping me out.. i really do appreciate it...


----------



## arxaw

To reliably get stations below the first few in the list shown in green, you *may* need an outdoor antenna.


What's the last channel down the list that you would like to receive?


----------



## TimPFla

As Long as I get NBC/CBS for news I am good... Unfortunately I can't install a outdoor antenna due to living in a apartment on bottom floor.. I watch most of my media via Bluray and Streams of internet



------------------ ----------------- ------------------

:

:

:

: ----------------

: my apt 1st floor

: Apt Drive of 2 story

: : : : :Barn



Sorry if its hard to read.. But basically I have a Apt on either side of me and barn when I look out my kitchen window.. The whole street is 2 story buildings and my back yard has trees..


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TimPFla* /forum/post/18172380
> 
> 
> As Long as I get NBC/CBS for news I am good...


 This should be all you need. If you have a North-facing window, that would probably be the best location for the antenna. TVs, computers or *anything* of a wireless nature (phones, routers, etc) can interfere with indoor reception. If you get poor reception, try putting a longer piece of coax on the antenna and relocating it far away from other electronic devices.


You can add longer coax using a screw-on barrel splice .


----------



## TimPFla

Thanks so much!!! Have you had any feedback on the Clearstream :COUGH: long range antenna for 49.99... It says a range of 30 miles.. Kinda iffy to me... But I will try the Rat shack antenna today and let you know


----------



## arxaw

CS are UHF antennas (except the outdoor C5). You have at least one station in the VHF band.


----------



## systems2000

I don't know if this has been posted before, but it was such a good read that I had to make note of it:



> Quote:
> When comparing DTS and translators, consider the antenna the viewer is likely to be using. A UHF DTV translator at 300 feet height above average terrain (HAAT) operating at the maximum ERP 15 kW would have an FCC (50, 90) 41 dBµV/m contour extending just beyond 32 miles. At high-VHF, 300 watts ERP at the same height covers just less than 30 miles and at low-VHF, the 28 dBµV/m contour extends 34 miles. This may be sufficient coverage for viewers with high gain outdoor antennas and preamplifiers. If the goal is to reach viewers with indoor antennas, the "typical case" described by Bill Meintel's paper at IEEE BTS requires 75.5 dBµV/m at UHF and 77.3 dBµV/m at VHF. This reduces the coverage of our maximum power translator to less than 9 miles at UHF, less than 3.5 miles at high-VHF, and less than 3 miles at low-VHF!
> 
> 
> If the interference issues to the primary site and other broadcasters can be resolved, a DTS offers the ability to transmit sufficient power to reach indoor antennas over a much wider area. Because it doesn't require a second channel, DTS or on-channel boosters (for smaller areas) will work better for mobile DTV.


 http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/74366


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TimPFla* /forum/post/18172535
> 
> 
> Thanks so much!!! Have you had any feedback on the Clearstream :COUGH: long range antenna for 49.99... It says a range of 30 miles.. Kinda iffy to me... But I will try the Rat shack antenna today and let you know




The CS (1 and 2) antennas are excellent indoor antennas for UHF and will greatly outperform the simple loop and rabbit ear on UHF.


The rabbit ears will out-perform the CS on VHF since the CS relies on an unconventional technique (feedline radiation) for limited VHF reception which is neither predictable or easily exploited.


Since Tim only specified reception of local network stations that transmit on UHF, then he has a choice to make. Given the lousy performance of VHF with indoor antennas in general, the simple Loop and RE may or may not work on channel 8 anyway in his marginal situation. For less than 15 dollars, it's certainly worth a try first. If the RS antenna doesn't work well enough on UHF, return it and upgrade to the CS. I'd prefer the C2 to the C1 for his situation.


Costco stores recently started carrying a new variation of the C2 that adds an indoor base and stand (indoor/outdoor). So far, it is exclusive to Costco. Their price seems to be around $70.


----------



## handr1030

Need help! We are so new to this and the # of indoor antenna choices are overwhelming to say the least. Would love to get rid of cable. We have an HDTV 1080P, SONY and live in Nokomis, Fl, 34275. Could anyone give us some guidance??


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *handr1030* /forum/post/18197702
> 
> 
> Need help! We are so new to this and the # of indoor antenna choices are overwhelming to say the least. Would love to get rid of cable. We have an HDTV 1080P, SONY and live in Nokomis, Fl, 34275. Could anyone give us some guidance??



Go to TVFool .

Enter your address and estimated antenna height from ground level.

Copy the link to the results page and post it back in this thread. Your address will *not* be displayed on the results page.


----------



## smino

Other than the Famous bow tie quad AE that dos only UHF, are there no plans to make something that does both VHF and UHF?


Secondly, I am also looking to build my own Omni Directional Antenna like the

winegard MS2000 Metrostar. Anyone have the plans?


Can this also be used for Wifi?


Lastly, If I wanted to build a crazy experimental Antenna in my attic, what would be the maximum range one could get? I am in Ottawa, On, and looking to catch some USA channels for the fun of it.


----------



## holl_ands

After entering your address (or LAT/LONG) into www.tvfool.com ,

copy/paste the results URL (webaddress at top of browser).

Then we can see what your signal levels are....


======================================

But you're in the wrong thread for DIY projects.....

You want the DIY UHF, DIY VHF and the "Official AVS Antenna" threads:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1024739 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...81623&page=366 


Although separate VHF and UHF antennas are still the OPTIMUM solution,

you'll find numerous designs for Dual VHF/UHF antennas here:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=186 


Just yesterday, I posted a design for a Vertical Folded Dipole, which

was Quasi-Omni, with slightly more gain in one direction. A non-folded

Vertical Dipole (which uses a 1:1 Balun) was also described which has

a True Omni pattern if mounted on a non-metallic pole.
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1068465 


The posted link leads to not only the described design for the FM Band,

but also optimized dimensions for Folded Dipoles and Loops for Ch5/6/FM,

Hi-VHF and UHF bands. When FDs are horizontal, they are bi-directional.

Reorient FDs vertically, they provide an omni-directional pattern.


Wi-Fi operates on either of two, much higher frequencies and must be

50-ohms with very low VSWR (unlike TV antennas). You can find many

DIY designs by Googling "wifi diy antenna"....plus the following:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=991253 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=113487 
http://www.oreillynet.com/etel/blog/...ity_wirel.html 
http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/1oSVLs.../wireless.html


----------



## DougFunnie13

I tried the RS 1874 and it definately helped on my reception. Even was able to hold a pretty good signal on KOLR 10. However, since I have to run the cable over to the fireplace mantel, I decided that it would be more sightly and better reception to go with the outdoor antenna. Quick question: do I need to ground the antenna or coax cable? Its going to be on a wood privacy fence, not the roof. Thanks again for all you help.


----------



## holl_ands

Ground anything that is outdoors....the wind creates static electricity...


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DougFunnie13* /forum/post/18236994
> 
> 
> I tried the RS 1874 and it definately helped on my reception. Even was able to hold a pretty good signal on KOLR 10.



Doug is that the Radio Shack *15*-1874?


----------



## DougFunnie13

yes


----------



## Clint S.

Thanks.


Does anyone know anything about the Silicon Scientific SNA-950TG ? They were half that price at their sister site BFDeals.com and had them as model # SNA-950TG. (The webpage is gone but I found the cached page ). I got 3 but I haven't received them yet. I couldn't find anything about it on the net so I'm most curious about it.


----------



## holl_ands

*EV:* I sent you a PM (sorry....3 w glitches) re SuperQuad.

If you have trouble with my links, let me know....


----------



## holl_ands

Using dimensions from *EV's Kosmic SuperQuad* thread:
http://www.dtvusaforum.com/dtv-hdtv-...ay-bowtie.html 

4nec2 analysis with and without the Screen Reflector can be found here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...bayrefl/kosmic 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay/kosmic 


Includes comparison of fol. antennas:

a) CM4228 8-Bay (original, not the new one)

b) Kosmic SuperQuad (9.75x9.5) 4-Bay Bowtie

c) mclapp M4 (9.5x9) Super-4-Bay Bowtie

d) CM4221 (8.5x8.9) (per actual measurements)

e) UTube 4-Bay Defect (~7.5x5.75) (per bobblin5 and makeTV videos)
*[PLEASE MAKE SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE UTUBE DEFECT!!!!!]*


Compare old CM4228 (good) to new CM4228HD (yuck!!) and

new CM4228HD with mods (much improved) here:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 


SuperQuad has more Gain than mclapp M4 (9.5x9.0) on higher channels

while M4 has a flatter response curve, with more Gain on lower channels.

So one or the other may be better in some areas....depending on conditions...


CM4228 has even more Gain than SuperQuad on higher channels but

is worse on the lowest channels (under Ch20). An unmodified CM4228HD

has a Gain curve approximating the M4...but with Ken Nist's mods, will

provide highest Gain overall (15-17 dBi above Ch20)....per NEC simulations....


Hi-VHF Raw Gain for Kosmic SuperQuad and mclapp M4 are both about

8 dBi, although the excessive SWR results in a severe Net Gain penalty.

M4 has slightly higher Net Gain than SuperQuad on mid-high channels.

The direction of the beam is FORWARD for both.


Note CM4221 (with Refl) has 4-6 dB more Hi-VHF Gain in REVERSE

direction than FORWARD.


And CM4228's Hi-VHF Gain curve is only shown in the FORWARD direction.

At 180 MHz Gain dip (Ch7 & 8), the beam pattern has three lobes:

REVERSE is 6 dBi and wide beamwidth lobes at +/- 75 degrees are 5 dBi.

If Hi-VHF stations were suitably located (or use a rotator), problem solved.

At 205.5 MHz Gain dip (mostly Ch12), the beam pattern has a wide

beamwidth FORWARD, but with severe Gain reduction. REVERSE is best at 3 dBi.


----------



## holl_ands

*Bi-directional, WITHOUT Screen Reflectors:* SuperQuad vs other 4-Bays:


----------



## rabbit73

Nice work holl_ands!


It shows how good the Kosmic SuperQuad is and how bad many of the youtube designs are.


----------



## mclapp

Holl_ands,

Your numbers for the M4 and mine are about 2db off, my field testing shows a peak around 13.5 dbd which would be around 15.5 dbi and the computer models show 16 dbi+. Everything else looks just like the models I ran.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for the modeling efforts hollands.


After T. Ballister does the signal analyzer field testing on UHF, I shall endeavor to consolidate them and make needed corrections to provided information and claims.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Note CM4221 (with Refl) has 4-6 dB more Hi-VHF Gain in REVERSE
> 
> direction than FORWARD.
> 
> 
> And CM4228's Hi-VHF Gain curve is only shown in the FORWARD direction.
> 
> At 180 MHz Gain dip (Ch7 & 8), the beam pattern has three lobes:
> 
> REVERSE is 6 dBi and wide beamwidth lobes at +/- 75 degrees are 5 dBi.
> 
> If Hi-VHF stations were suitably located (or use a rotator), problem solved.
> 
> At 205.5 MHz Gain dip (mostly Ch12), the beam pattern has a wide
> 
> beamwidth FORWARD, but with severe Gain reduction. REVERSE is best at 3 dBi.



Thanks for that fantastic analysis! Very useful information.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a bit more info on VHF High to go with hollands modeling...


Some field testing with a spectrum analyzer on VHF High...

http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparis...F_Shootout.htm


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> CM4221 (8.5x8.9) (per actual measurements)



I have a question hollands. The CM 4221 that I have which is the old American Made discontinued version has 7.9" elements and 8" interbowtie spacing. Is the measurements that you have there of the new Chinese made CM 4221HD?


----------



## holl_ands

Ken Nist analyzed the CM4228HD, but hasn't (yet?) posted the NEC file.

And I haven't seen anyone post a NEC file for new CM4221HD.


I would gladly plug dimensions into my generic, symbol driven file and

run it if someone would take the time.....and post some GOOD photos

taken from a variety of angles....


mclapp posted a photo of his old CM4221 (with 1"x2" Grid), which

is what I call CM4221 (Actual Measurements):

BowLength = 8.5-in, Bowtie Spacing = 8.9-in, Tine Separation = 5.25-in.

Feedline Separation = 1.4-in, with 0.8-in at Crossover.

Center of Crossovers 2.75-in from Center of Outer Bowties.


Ken Nist's CM4221a.ez NEC file (imported into 4nec2) was clearly

derived by simply hacking off HALF of his CM4228a.ez NEC file:

BowLength = 7.8-in, Bowtie Spacing = 8-in, Tine Separation = 5.5-in.

Feedline Separation = 1.25-in, with 0.8-in at Crossover.


I have an old 4-Bay I bought in late 70's (??) that is similar to CM4221,

but I don't have mfr's info or part number on it...and it is different again:

BowLength = 9-in, Inner Bowtie spacing = 7.875, Outer Bowtie spacing = 7.125.

Tine Separation = 4.25-in, Feedline Separation = 0.9375-in, with 0.8-in at Crossover.


So what you have appears to be same as what Ken Nist assumed.

See my 4nec2 analysis folder for comparisons.

{psssttt: mclapp's CM4221 was somewhat better than your CM4221....}


----------



## Clint S.

I hope all of you "experts" will forgive the question and answer this. I know little about antennae, because I've been using cable since about 1973. I know the basics of how they work and how the lengths of some elements have to do with specific frequencies they better receive, but that's about it.


I got these in yesterday and put one together. If you look closely at the enlarged image , that "rounded rectangular" area going off to the right, *is plastic.* Now it doesn't take a genius to know that plastic is not conductive, it's an insulator. The elements you stick on the plastic (28 of them), are aluminum, obviously a conductor. *But they connect to absolutely nothing metal.* So what's the point of them if they don't connect to anything??







All antenna I've fooled with before (60's and early 70's) were either all metal, or, if they used any plastic support areas the metal areas were still all connected in some way.


Are these "unconnected" metal elements somehow acting as some kind of a (for lack of a better term) "collector", then the metal parts that *are* _physically connected_ in the end to the TV, "get signals" from these "unconnected" elements and them amplify them? (In this case it's an amplified antenna).


Thanks.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clint S.* /forum/post/18277037
> 
> 
> I hope all of you "experts" will forgive the question and answer this. I know little about antennae, because I've been using cable since about 1973. I know the basics of how they work and how the lengths of some elements have to do with specific frequencies they better receive, but that's about it.
> 
> 
> I got these in yesterday and put one together. If you look closely at the enlarged image , that "rounded rectangular" area going off to the right, *is plastic.* Now it doesn't take a genius to know that plastic is not conductive, it's an insulator. The elements you stick on the plastic (28 of them), are aluminum, obviously a conductor. *But they connect to absolutely nothing metal.* So what's the point of them if they don't connect to anything??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All antenna I've fooled with before (60's and early 70's) were either all metal, or, if they used any plastic support areas the metal areas were still all connected in some way.
> 
> 
> Are these "unconnected" metal elements somehow acting as some kind of a (for lack of a better term) "collector", then the metal parts that *are* _physically connected_ in the end to the TV, "get signals" from these "unconnected" elements and them amplify them? (In this case it's an amplified antenna).
> 
> 
> Thanks.



This is not intended to be a critique in any way of the referenced product.


Directors and reflectors may be either physically connected to the metal boom or may be physically isolated. Antennas can be designed either way. Both techniques are common and you often see both practices on a single antenna.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18277201
> 
> 
> This is not intended to be a critique in any way of the referenced product.
> 
> 
> Directors and reflectors may be either physically connected to the metal boom or may be physically isolated. Antennas can be designed either way. Both techniques are common and you often see both practices on a single antenna.



Thanks for replying. So that begs the question; which are considered better? If the answer is connected to the other (amp'd) metal parts, should I then connect them with some conductors of some kind?


How exactly can they function if they are not metal-connected to the other parts of the antenna?


Thanks.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clint S.* /forum/post/18277284
> 
> 
> Thanks for replying. So that begs the question; which are considered better? If the answer is connected to the other (amp'd) metal parts, should I then connect them with some conductors of some kind?
> 
> 
> How exactly can they function if they are not metal-connected to the other parts of the antenna?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Only the driven element (usually) needs to be insulated from the boom. The choice of whether or not to the insulate the parasitic elements from the boom is up to the designer to decide as either technique can work. In practice, the parasitic elements are usually isolated.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18278151
> 
> 
> Only the driven element (usually) needs to be insulated from the boom. The choice of whether or not to the insulate the parasitic elements from the boom is up to the designer to decide as either technique can work. In practice, the parasitic elements are usually isolated.



Thanks again for replying I appreciate it, but I don't guess I'm making myself clear enough.










I figured it was a "design choice", but what I'm trying to ascertain is:


1. How can the isolated elements work since they are not connected to any other (active/metal) part of the antenna or the amp?


2. What are the advantages and disadvantages of both designs?


3. I haven't hooked mine up yet (it will be awhile), but do you know what would I expect if I metal-connected my insulated elements? Might this give a better signal for just lower bands, or just higher bands, or both but with some kind of drawback, etc.?


Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands

A boom made of wood...or plastic....is the same as no boom at all.


A metal boom shifts the operating frequency by perhaps 2% (Hi-VHF)

or 10% (UHF) when electrically connected to a metal boom, which is

compensated for in the design via a "Boom Correction" in the

element lengths ....and about half that when isolated. Not an issue....

Except the Boom Correction must be applied to NEC simulations

(which do NOT include the boom) before actually cutting metal...


The elements themselves are what determines the antenna characteristics.

There is no performance advantage of one vs the other...it's a choice

of what is easiest to manufacturer and will best survive the elements....


BTW: In most Yagi and Log-Yagi antennas I've seen, the directors

are electrically attached directly to the metal boom via swing clips....


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for the explanation hollands.


Still confused though. I directly measured the elements and Nist is much closer to my measurements, almost identical.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18279510
> 
> 
> A boom made of wood...or plastic....is the same as no boom at all.
> 
> 
> A metal boom shifts the operating frequency by perhaps 2% (Hi-VHF) or 10% (UHF) when electrically connected to a metal boom, which is compensated for in the design via a "Boom Correction" in the element lengths ....and about half that when isolated. Not an issue....Except the Boom Correction must be applied to NEC simulations (which do NOT include the boom) before actually cutting metal...
> 
> 
> The elements themselves are what determines the antenna characteristics. There is no performance advantage of one vs the other...it's a choice of what is easiest to manufacturer and will best survive the elements....
> 
> 
> BTW: In most Yagi and Log-Yagi antennas I've seen, the directors are electrically attached directly to the metal boom via swing clips....










I'm confused.







You say "_A boom made of wood...or plastic....is the same as no boom at all_" and "_There is no performance advantage of one vs the other_". So then why is the non-metal-connected boom even there in the first place? Did I just waste my time connecting it?


And again, I'm still trying to ascertain *how* elements can work if they are isolated and not connected to anything metal.


Thanks.


----------



## rabbit73

Clint S.,


> Quote:
> And again, I'm still trying to ascertain how elements can work if they are isolated and not connected to anything metal



.

It *is* a difficult concept to grasp: the parasitic elements are not connected but yet they make a difference!


But, then, there is no connection between a transmitting antenna and a receiving antenna, is there? The transfer of energy takes place by radiation. Think of an antenna as a transducer. A current in a transmitting antenna produces an electro-magnetic field. When a receiving antenna is in this field, a current is produced in it. So also, a transfer of energy can occur between the elements of an antenna even though they are not connected.


The key is to notice that director and reflector elements are called "parasitic" elements. The parasitic elements are coupled through the air by their proximity to the driven element, even though not connected, and influence its behavior. The element that is connected to the feedline is called the driven element. This term comes from considering the antenna as a transmitting antenna. Since antennas are reciprocal, that is they have the same gain, SWR, and directivity characteristics for transmitting and receiving, the terms that are used for the transmitting mode are also applied to the receiving mode. Antenna modeling programs also treat the antenna as a transmitting antenna, IIRC.


The driven element receives the power from the transmitter by the feedline during transmitting. The driven element sends power to the receiver by the feedline during receiving.


During transmitting the parasitic elements receive power from the driven element by radiation and reinforce its directivity and strength by adding the power that they obtained as parasites of the driven element. There is no load resistor in the parasitic elements; the power has to go somewhere, so it is re-radiated. During receiving the parastic elements pick up additional power from the received signal and add it, by re-radiation, to the signal that is received by the driven element alone.


For reception, which is what we are interested now, the parasitic elements add gain to the antenna and make the beamwidth narrower (another example of there is no free lunch), which is often useful for dealing with multipath problems.


In order for the parasitic elements to assist the driven element in doing its job, they are made just the right length so that their reinforcement effect is at the right time (correct phase relationship), because the parasitic elements are at a slightly different location than the driven element.


The length the reflector (if not a reflector screen) is a little long for the design frequency (about 5 percent more), and the length of the directors is a little short (about 5 percent less), as a starting point. If a screen or a collection of rods is used for the reflector, it is called a non-resonant reflector; it's length is not as critical as a single element reflector. It acts more like a mirror than a second source.


If the parasitic elements are mounted on an insulating material, their optimum length is not affected. If they are mounted on a conducting material, their length needs to be adjusted; this is called the "boom correction factor." It doesn't harm the performance of the parasitic element to be directly mounted on or thru a metal boom because the voltage at the center of the element is zero, but the current is maximum. You need some kind of boom to mount the elements so that they are correctly spaced from each other.


Does that answer your question, or did I add to the confusion?


Best regards,

rabbit


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clint S.* /forum/post/18284187
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You say "_A boom made of wood...or plastic....is the same as no boom at all_" and "_There is no performance advantage of one vs the other_". So then why is the non-metal-connected boom even there in the first place? Did I just waste my time connecting it?
> 
> 
> And again, I'm still trying to ascertain *how* elements can work if they are isolated and not connected to anything metal.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



I'm not sure what you connected to what....but it probably degraded performance.


Consider a simple Dipole...or Folded Dipole....or a Loop in free space.

There is an optimum size for a given frequency. And the frequency

bandwidth over which it provides useful performance depends mostly on

the element diameter (fatter is better).


If you then bring ANYTHING metallic within several wavelengths of the antenna,

they are going to interact in the Electro-Magnetic domain....called Mutual Coupling.


Metal elements (rods) can be arranged in front of, behind, on top, below, whatever

in order to manipulate the overall response to an incoming E-M field....and they DON'T

have to be connected together with metal wires....the rods themselves do the work...


It's sort of like when you bring a magnet close to another magnet...each "feels" the other.

Except in antennas it's an electric field manifestation that humans can't "see" or "feel".


The amount of Mutual Coupling depends on:

1) how close they are,

2) size of the objects and

3) relative orientation....when they are at right angles, coupling is minimized.

Which is why a metal boom causes only a small change to the Mutual Coupling

between the other elements.


BTW: They ALL interact, which is why complicated computer modeling is needed

to calculate the Mutual Coupling between each and every other small segment

making up the various antenna elements. Which is why adding or moving elements is

foolhardy if you don't understand exactly what the overall effect might be...and then test it....


Hope this helps to understand....without citing Maxwell's Equations....

or resorting to that other favorite explanation: "It's FM".....Freaking Magic....


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18289118
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you connected to what....but it probably degraded performance.



I didn't connect anything to anything yet (other than what was _supposed_ to have been done). That's why I was _first_ asking about it.




> Quote:
> Consider a simple Dipole...or Folded Dipole....or a Loop in free space.
> 
> There is an optimum size for a given frequency. And the frequency
> 
> bandwidth over which it provides useful performance depends mostly on
> 
> the element diameter (fatter is better).
> 
> 
> If you then bring ANYTHING metallic within several wavelengths of the antenna,
> 
> they are going to interact in the Electro-Magnetic domain....called Mutual Coupling.
> 
> 
> Metal elements (rods) can be arranged in front of, behind, on top, below, whatever
> 
> in order to manipulate the overall response to an incoming E-M field....and they DON'T
> 
> have to be connected together with metal wires....the rods themselves do the work...
> 
> 
> It's sort of like when you bring a magnet close to another magnet...each "feels" the other.
> 
> Except in antennas it's an electric field manifestation that humans can't "see" or "feel".
> 
> 
> The amount of Mutual Coupling depends on:
> 
> 1) how close they are,
> 
> 2) size of the objects and
> 
> 3) relative orientation....when they are at right angles, coupling is minimized.
> 
> Which is why a metal boom causes only a small change to the Mutual Coupling
> 
> between the other elements.
> 
> 
> BTW: They ALL interact, which is why complicated computer modeling is needed
> 
> to calculate the Mutual Coupling between each and every other small segment
> 
> making up the various antenna elements. Which is why adding or moving elements is
> 
> foolhardy if you don't understand exactly what the overall effect might be...and then test it....
> 
> 
> Hope this helps to understand....without citing Maxwell's Equations....
> 
> or resorting to that other favorite explanation: "It's FM".....Freaking Magic....



Thanks for the good info.







I figured it had to have been some kind of so-to-speak "EM induction" ("radiation") going on like I alluded to in the bottom of post 2504.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/18287919
> 
> 
> Clint S.,
> 
> .
> 
> It *is* a difficult concept to grasp: the parasitic elements are not connected but yet they make a difference!
> 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Does that answer your question, or did I add to the confusion?
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> rabbit



Thanks a bunch to you as well for all the info, yep that answers it.







Like I mentioned in my last post, I figured it had something to do with induction or radiation. (I have some cordless rechargeable devices that recharge _without any physical connection_, they recharge only by induction).


One thing that's still unclear: would I get better or worse performance if I metallically-connected those isolated elements? Or is whether or not elements are metallically-connected _inherit in *the specific design* of each antenna_, and, they are made the way they are made (elements parasitic or active) for _a specific reason_ and changing that either way from their origin will degrade performance?


I would try it, but since there are over 28 of them that would take a good bit of connecting.


Thanks again.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clint S.* /forum/post/18291593
> 
> 
> One thing that's still unclear: would I get better or worse performance if I metallically-connected those isolated elements?



Much worse. Please leave them the way they are (unless you are willing to risk damaging the antenna for the sake of science); the arrangement is part of the design. They are meant to be isolated. They work very well being isolated. They need to be isolated to work properly. They are very happy being isolated. If you change the design, you will probably wreck the performance.


To satisfy your scientific curiousity you could modify one of your antennas and compare it with an unmodified one. The last thing I want to do is discourage experimentation; I encourage it. I like experimenation, and alway learn a lot from it.


The best description of how parasitic elements work that I have seen is by William I. Orr, W6SAI, & Stuart D. Cowan, W2LX, in their Beam Antenna Handbook (publication 83-135, Radio Publications, Inc., First Edition, second printing, 1987, ISBN 0-933616-04-X). I quote the intro to Chapter 2, The Yagi Beam Antenna:












> Quote:
> The Yagi parasitic beam antenna is a simple object composed of pieces of tubing, *critically cut and spaced*; it is deceptively guileless in appearance. Where does the gain come from, what magic properties have the extra elements, and with no connection to the antenna, how can they possibly generate or create a power gain when brought near a dipole? Good questions, and ones not easily answered nor understood.



End of quote by Bill Orr.



> Quote:
> Or is whether or not elements are metallically-connected inherit in the specific design of each antenna, and, they are made the way they are made (elements parasitic or active) for a specific reason and changing that either way from their origin will degrade performance?



Yes, the way they are is inherent in the specific design.

Yes, they are made that way for a specific reason.

Yes, changing the design will degrade the performance, unless you, by chance, discover a new superior design with your experiments which is what Hidetsugu Yagi and Shintaro Uda, two Japanese university professors did in the 1920s. Uda did the development work, while Yagi wrote the papers in English popularizing the new design. The antenna should properly be called the Yagi-Uda, rather than just Yagi.

*holl_ands*:

It has always seemed like magic to me!


----------



## Clint S.

Rabbit: thank you again.







I probably will end up temporarily connecting the elements on one of them just for the heck of it.


----------



## TimPFla

I just wanted to thank you guys soo much!! I took your advise and tried the radioshack rabbit ears.. Ran the cable to my window facing north.. Instead of 2 channels that were very shaky all the time using my RCA Flat antenna, I am now getting 6 channels all strong and clear... I tried the same Rca antenna in that window and it barely pulled in a signal


----------



## rabbit73

Nice job Tim!

Thanks for the feedback.


Sometimes a little experimentation really pays off.


----------



## TimPFla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/18295550
> 
> 
> Nice job Tim!
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> 
> Sometimes a little experimentation really pays off.



yeah, I don't have cable or anything.. Watch most of my programing online.. However, I could never get local news or programming.. I had almost given up because I used the Terk Antenna but I had to turn it everytime I wanted to change a channel.. Then the RCA Flat antenna.. That one would get a couple of stations but it didn't matter where I put it, I couldn't get a non-interupted picture.. This was the last attempt for me and it worked... It's great!!! WEEEW!!


----------



## holl_ands

*Indoor Antenna Test Results* (actual measurements) I've been collecting:

[Feel free to add to the list....]


1. IDRICK: OTA margin to dropout for RCA-111 RE-RectangularLoop, R-S 15-1874 RELoop

and mclapp 2-Bay (NO Reflector):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...9&d=1267978917 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=18265300 

[Waiting on clarification whether 2-Bay had a Reflector in the comparison chart.]


2. NTIA Report 79-28, "Indoor TV Antenna Performance", FitzGerrell, Oct1979:
http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/pub/ntia-rpt/79-28/79-28.pdf 

Includes VHF-only RabbitEars, RELoop with 12 position tuning control, 17.3" Monopole at 45-deg,

6.9" diameter UHF Loop, 13.2" wide UHF single Bowtie, UHF 2-Bay Bowtie/Reflector,

UHF 4-Bay Bowtie/Reflector and a 63" boom length VHF-only LPDA. *Also measured Balun Loss.*


3. Kerry Cozad (Dielectric Antennas Engineer) VHF/UHF Range Measurements (and a few

NEC simulations) for Zenith Silver Sensor, R-S 15-1864 RELoop, Terk TV-55 "Bar" antenna,

W-G SS-1000 Square Shooter, W-G PR-8800 8-Bay, CM4228 8-Bay and RCA ANT-3020 Combo

with four VHF LPDA elements plus a UHF Corner Yagi:
https://secure.connect.pbs.org/confe...ns/TC05_43.htm 
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/docume...?id=6517882072 *[Paper starts pg53.]*

Attachments below expand out the VHF channels. Also note my comments.


4. Peter Putman's "Heavy Metal Part II" Indoor OTA Tests (these are new links):
http://digitalcontentproducer.com/ma..._metal_part_2/ 

Includes CM3000A Smartenna, Terk TV55, RS 15-1862, RS 15-1890, Antiference Silver Sensor,

ROAM ReCepTor and ROAM MiniCepTor....some with an added Preamp.

Heavy Metal Part I is Outdoor OTA Antenna Test:
http://digitalcontentproducer.com/ma...vy_metal_part/ 


5. MSW test for NAB: amplified/non-amplified antennas. Subtract amplifier gain to find antenna gain:
http://www.walb.com/Global/story.asp...type=printable 
https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_...um=1&exhcnum=1 *[Report starts pg71.]*

Non-amplified antennas: RCA ANT115 RELoop, Philips Silver Sensor, W-G SS-1000 Square Shooter,

A-D DB-2 2-Bay/Reflector and Terrestrial Digital 303F (aka A-D SR-8) 4-Element UHF Yagi.

Amplified antennas: RCA ANT-585 RE-SquareLoop, Philips MANT-940 "Blade", W-G SS-2000

Square Shooter, Terk TV-25 Flat Bowtie and W-G SS-3000 (aka Terk HDTVIp) Sharp Shooter.


6. Pascal Marcoux (CRC, Canada) "Revisiting Field Strength Requirements for DTV", Sep2009:
http://www.ccbe.ca/Downloads/CCBE200...ngDTVminFS.pdf 

Includes Terk HDTVi (Silver Sensor Klone + RabbitEars), RCA Square Flat Panel (p/n unknown),

Antennacraft HBU-22 Hi-VHF+UHF Combo and a 4-Bay/Reflector (p/n unknown).

I suspect Marcoux is trying to make a point about how the carefully chosen manufacturer's "spec"

numbers are very loosy-goosy. Hence it appears he might have chosen to take the MINIMUM

Gain points to compare against the manufacturer's (MAX? Typical?) Gain spec.

Nonetheless, measured UHF Gain for Terk HDTVi was only so-so (1.5 dBd = 3.7 dBi),

and UHF Gain for RCA Square Flat Panel was terrible (-6.8 dBd = -4.6 dBi).

RCA Flat Panel also had much higher attenuation on Hi-VHF than Terk HDTVi.


----------



## therealdeal74

I just discovered this awesome thread. Thanks for the awesome work EV.


I need some of your opinions. I am installing a DTV tuner in my Scion xB. I bought the $5 bowtie antenna from RS and have had limited success with it pulling in the channels I want to watch. I have to play around with the position of the antenna a lot when I try to pull in a particular channel and it's not very ideal doing that.


I have 2 things I thought about doing. I was going to build that home made coat hanger antenna and shove it up in the headliner. But doing so would not allow me to move it around. The other idea was to buy motorized antenna like the RS UFO and mount it horizontally on the left or right rear wall of the car.


Do any of these ideas sound good? What antenna would I best benefit from in a car?


----------



## IDRick




holl_ands said:


> *Indoor Antenna Test Results* (actual measurements) I've been collecting:
> 
> [Feel free to add to the list....]
> 
> 
> 1. IDRICK: OTA margin to dropout for RCA-111 RE-RectangularLoop, R-S 15-1874 RELoop
> 
> and mclapp 2-Bay:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...9&d=1267978917
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=18265300
> 
> [Waiting on clarification whether 2-Bay had a Reflector in the comparison chart.]
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Holl_ands, I used a "reflectorless" 2-bay in this study. Thanks for quoting my comparison.
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> 
> Rick


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *therealdeal74* /forum/post/18316140
> 
> 
> I just discovered this awesome thread. Thanks for the awesome work EV.
> 
> 
> I need some of your opinions. I am installing a DTV tuner in my Scion xB. I bought the $5 bowtie antenna from RS and have had limited success with it pulling in the channels I want to watch. I have to play around with the position of the antenna a lot when I try to pull in a particular channel and it's not very ideal doing that.
> 
> 
> I have 2 things I thought about doing. I was going to build that home made coat hanger antenna and shove it up in the headliner. But doing so would not allow me to move it around. The other idea was to buy motorized antenna like the RS UFO and mount it horizontally on the left or right rear wall of the car.
> 
> 
> Do any of these ideas sound good? What antenna would I best benefit from in a car?



If you search for "car tv antenna" you'll find lots of antennas that look like RabbitEar Dipoles,

with two shorter rods....many have a Preamp that you'll have to figure out how to

supply DC power if it isn't already on the Coax. These can be placed in the front

and/or rear window. Problem is they are directional and tend to not work when the

station is on the side of the car....or behind you when mounted only in the front window.

Some Dipole antennas are in the form of metallic tape pasted to a window (or DIY):
http://www.mobilevideozone.com/xABK_..._Antennas.aspx 
http://www.himfr.com/d-p113398028380..._Wing_Antenna/ 

Unfortunately, Dual Antenna Diversity Tuners are NOT available for DTV in the USA....

but are fairly common in Europe where they use the different DVB-T waveform.....


You can also use a short (about 14.5") whip antenna, but make sure it is made for

FM/TV bands. These should pick up signals in all directions, but work best when

stations transmit a Circular (CP) or Elliptical Polarized (EP) signal with energy

in both Horizontal and Vertical (for whip). Outside car is always better.

You can check to see which stations transmit CP or EP here:
http://www.rabbitears.info/ss/ 


Best TV antenna for a car is what you see on Limos: Horizontally Polarized Wing,

Banana or Boomerang:
http://www.wintenna.com/boomerangs.htm 


Avoid placing an antenna in the roof liner if the car has a metal roof.

This will only work if the central part of the roof is fibreglass....

PS: You can't take an antenna that is intended to operate vertically

(like the "coat hanger" 4-Bays) and lay it down to fit in the headliner.

Yagi or LPDA antennas lay flat....but since they are highly directional,

they'll only work while driving towards a tower....you would need a

low gain Omnidirectional antenna....which won't have much gain....

If you have a fibreglass roof panel, consider a Combo VHF/UHF

antenna, since VHF has better coverage, tend to be CP/EP and will

work at higher vehicle speeds than UHF.


You might try the R-S UFO in the rear of the Scion, but it appears to

have a lot of metal (and fibreglass???) in that area, blocking the signal.

Hopefully you'll be stopped while operating the rotation controls....


BTW: Current DTV will fail to work well below freeway speeds....esp. UHF.

The new ATSC-M/H (Mobile/Handheld) waveform has been designed to overcome

this deficiency...and will be much more robust....look for mobile tuners this summer.


Since you'll need to be almost stopped for today's DTV to work, why not

throw a decent antenna in the back of the car, STOP and place it on TOP

of the car when needed.....


----------



## deltaguy

I enjoyed that report from 1979. The humble bowtie was called standard equipment. It even works.


Today's rabbit ears may not be able to support the weight of one without falling down unfortunately.


----------



## sobek

Hey guys


My cable bill is getting crazy so I wanted to get rid of it. I've spent hours going through this thread and still don't really know what to get and could use a little advice.


My TV fool is:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c84778580ffe 


I live on the 5th floor of a building in manhattan on the north side of the building if that means anything. This building is built like a tank and the walls are quite solid, so I'm worried I would get bad reception indoors. Hanging something out the window is not an option because of building rules.


Thanks in advance.


----------



## deltaguy

sobek,


What kind of tuner will you be using? Have you had success in the past watching over the air television? Lastly, are the windows there made of bullet-proof glass?


----------



## sobek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/18338825
> 
> 
> sobek,
> 
> 
> What kind of tuner will you be using? Have you had success in the past watching over the air television? Lastly, are the windows there made of bullet-proof glass?



I have always had cable, so I'm not sure what the reception will be like. However, and this may be irrelevant, I do know that cell phone reception is horrible in this building because the building (pre-war construction) is so solid.


I will be using the tuner on the tv. In this case, a Panasonic panel with ATSC/NTSC/QAM.


The windows are insulated, but not terribly thick. Not many drive by shootings in Manhattan, so can't tell you if my windows can stop bullets.







The problem I see is that the signal is coming from the South and my windows face north.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sobek* /forum/post/18338893
> 
> 
> I have always had cable, so I'm not sure what the reception will be like. However, and this may be irrelevant, I do know that cell phone reception is horrible in this building because the building (pre-war construction) is so solid.
> 
> 
> I will be using the tuner on the tv. In this case, a Panasonic panel with ATSC/NTSC/QAM.
> 
> 
> The windows are insulated, but not terribly thick. Not many drive by shootings in Manhattan, so can't tell you if my windows can stop bullets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem I see is that the signal is coming from the South and my windows face north.



Next question, what does the horizon look like out of your north-facing windows? Are there buildings taller than yours? A reflected signal can be the ticket to successful reception in some areas.


----------



## sobek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/18338908
> 
> 
> Next question, what does the horizon look like out of your north-facing windows? Are there buildings taller than yours? A reflected signal can be the ticket to successful reception in some areas.



My building is the tallest around this area and the next building to the north is about 50-70 ft away, so there is some open space. I'm on the 5th floor.


I don't mind getting something that is overkill, as long as it can be reasonable hidden in a small apartment.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sobek* /forum/post/18338947
> 
> 
> My building is the tallest around this area and the next building to the north is about 50-70 ft away, so there is some open space. I'm on the 5th floor.
> 
> 
> I don't mind getting something that is overkill, as long as it can be reasonable hidden in a small apartment.



I'd say it's best to start very basic with the humble bowtie. I'd add 25 feet of cable and an f-coupler so that you have an opportunity to seek out hot spots for reception in your apartment. These can be anywhere. The bowtie at Radio Shack no longer comes with an adaptor for the flat wire, so those two items will cost around $10. The cable and coupler will be useful for whatever antenna you try. Don't be bashful about asking your neighbors if they already have a solution that can also work for you.


While the bowtie is advertised as a "UHF" antenna, it can also be used for VHF signals. If signals are strong enough, even coax cable can be an effective antenna.


----------



## sobek

Thanks for the advice, Deltaguy. I would have never even considered a bowtie antenna. A bowtie should work according to my TV fool?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sobek* /forum/post/18340506
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice, Deltaguy. I would have never even considered a bowtie antenna. A bowtie should work according to my TV fool?



The bowtie is comparable to the Silver Sensor-style antennas. It is a solid UHF performer. It probably will not be reliable for signals below real channel 14, but it might be. ABC is on rf 7 there, so it is a might be. This is a good starter antenna which can give you some idea of how well the armor plating is working there. It's returnable as well. People often see the price of the bowtie as indicative of poor performance, but that is not the case.


----------



## wadehalva

Having moved, I'm on the first floor in a new town.


MY TVFool is attached.


Any suggestions for indoor or outdoor would be appreciated.


Wade


----------



## holl_ands

You need both Hi-VHF and UHF and they're coming from both the North and the South.

Have you tried a non-amplified, returnable, inexpensive RabbitEars/Loop antenna???

Extend RabbitEars out to about 14.5 inches (each).


----------



## wadehalva

I am using the cheap RS antenna now, but have to move things a lot to get different channels. I'll give it a shot not extending the RE all the way out as you suggest and see how I do. I will probably also run a longer coax to get it by a window. Once I do that, I'll let you know how things are.


Thanks,

Wade


----------



## Clint S.

Is anyone here familiar with the Belkin PureAV AV48001 ? I can't find any reviews on it, and it can be had for $12 shipped. It's not even at the Belkin website.


----------



## arxaw

Not familiar with it, but it looks like a typical designer antenna that is built for looks, not performance. It might work if you're just a few miles from the transmitters.


What does TVFool show for your address?


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18381795
> 
> 
> Not familiar with it, but it looks like a typical designer antenna that is built for looks, not performance. It might work if you're just a few miles from the transmitters.



The farthest station is about 17 miles away. I already got these , but my RSI and carpel tunnel is so painful I can't finish putting one together to try it out. I was just curious about these Belkin because of the name, amplified, and


----------



## arxaw

Your TVFool shows that your channels of interest are too strong for an amplified antenna.

I would try this antenna from Radio Shack. Extend the dipole rods in a "V" and no longer than ~14" each.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18387300
> 
> 
> Your TVFool shows that your channels of interest are too strong for an amplified antenna.


_Too_ strong??







Couldn't an amp'd antenna just be left unplugged, or the gain adjusted?


Please explain how you come to that conclusion.







Others here have told me I need an amplified antenna.


FWIW, I have a portable LCD DTV with an external rod antenna and it can only pick up *one* channel! (PBS, WLPB in the chart). And that channel freezes a lot. Although it is indeed just a rod, I would think it should be a lot better than that if a passive antenna would suffice.




> Quote:
> I would try this antenna from Radio Shack. Extend the dipole rods in a "V" and no longer than ~14" each.



I have a few of those types laying around here but haven't tried them yet. But I will.


----------



## arxaw

It might work. It might not. But with TVFool results as strong as yours, normally an amplified antenna is not recommended, due to overload.


I would still try the RS antenna I linked to. It's about the same price as the amp'd antenna and has worked for many people on this forum who had TVFool results similar to yours. And you can return it if it doesn't work.


----------



## Clint S.

Yeah it's risk-free to try it. I'll try the cheap ones I have first.


----------



## Mw182006

Some newb questions for you guys, sorry!


First, here's my tvfool results (ground floor of apt): http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c8936ba27011 


Judging by other posts I think I can get away with the simple rabbit ear antenna right? Right now I'm just trying to ditch the cable box/bill and get some sort of OTA signal going. I'm not worried about recording or messing with a pc tuner card just yet. Right now my setup consists of a 5.1 system running through a Denon AVR (1909) with a Samsung DLP that has a built in ATSC tuner. In terms of getting picture/sound running through my surround system, is it as easy as running the rabbit ears to the TV tuner? I just want to make sure I don't need any extra equipment for the time being. Thanks in advance.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mw182006* /forum/post/18411436
> 
> 
> Some newb questions for you guys, sorry!
> 
> 
> First, here's my tvfool results (ground floor of apt): http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c8936ba27011
> 
> 
> Judging by other posts I think I can get away with the simple rabbit ear antenna right? Right now I'm just trying to ditch the cable box/bill and get some sort of OTA signal going. I'm not worried about recording or messing with a pc tuner card just yet. Right now my setup consists of a 5.1 system running through a Denon AVR (1909) with a Samsung DLP that has a built in ATSC tuner. In terms of getting picture/sound running through my surround system, is it as easy as running the rabbit ears to the TV tuner? I just want to make sure I don't need any extra equipment for the time being. Thanks in advance.



I'd start with a basic loop and rabbit ear from Radio Shack - about $12.


Place it in a window that faces south-west for best results.


----------



## arxaw

Yes. All you should need is this budget RS antenna , which has been proven to work well in your situation, many many times on this forum. There are other brands/models that look almost identical and may actually work, but this is the one I would try.


The dipole rods on the antenna are only for VHF channel 7. The "loop" is for all the other channels in your TVFool. Put the rods in a "V" and extend them no more than about 15-16" each. If you have problems with channel 7, you may have to put an extension coax on the antenna to get it away from other electronics in the room which may interfere with ch 7 reception. Even your TV can sometimes interfere with (vhf) 7. Near a window is best.


----------



## Mw182006

Awesome, thanks...I figured that was best but I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't need anything else.


----------



## KNKLHEAD

Hi!


What a great site and excellent reference. I have unplugged satellite and cable and happily using Windows Media Center 7, HD Homerun network based tuners and a few usb tuners to have a TV bill of ZERO. I also have a homemade youtube antenna on the roof about 30 feet up.


All is working well, but I thought I'd try to upgrade the signals I get and try to get something on the roof that is a bit more aesthetically pleasing.


My TV Fool is:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db7c8fa5765da39[/URL 


I would also like to maximize the Buffalo television stations AND try to pull in the Canadian stations, pretty much directly across the water, including Toronto -- stations like City TV, etc.


I have a few stations "behind" me that are fairly close, and from what I can tell, an almost due northwest-ish point seems best. Recommendations on antenna and possible rotor would be greatly appreciated.


If I can help anyone use their computer as a media center and tuners, I'd be happy to add to the resources available here. My free digital TV and a $9 subscription keeps us in front of the TV much more than we need!


----------



## silvercity22

Hi


I'm hoping that someone could recommend me an indoor antenna for my situation. My friend has a cottage which is located deep in the woods. He basically owns a 22' LCD tv and is interested in getting local channels only (probably about 5 channels, ctv, cbc and some local French channels here in Quebec ). He bought an antenna from a local store but the reception is awful...it's very snowy etc. So we're basically looking for an antenna that will allow us to watch tv with better reception...anything under $50. Any recommendations or ideas.


Thanks for your help.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *silvercity22* /forum/post/18456217
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> 
> I'm hoping that someone could recommend me an indoor antenna for my situation. My friend has a cottage which is located deep in the woods. He basically owns a 22' LCD tv and is interested in getting local channels only (probably about 5 channels, ctv, cbc and some local French channels here in Quebec ). He bought an antenna from a local store but the reception is awful...it's very snowy etc. So we're basically looking for an antenna that will allow us to watch tv with better reception...anything under $50. Any recommendations or ideas.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help.



You have have not provided enough information for anyone to say what antennas may be suitable, you really should run a TV fool report before anyone can suggest a antenna.

http://www.tvfool.com


----------



## silvercity22

Ok so I went to tv fool and ran a map coverage test and the results are in Red for the analog signals I would like to catch...other channels are in grey but I'm not that interested in those. I basically want an indoor antenna that will give me better reception (less snow).....it doesn't have to be perfect but definitely better than what I am receiving now. Is this even possible, or is it a hit and miss when it comes to indoor antennas? Do some perform better than others? If it helps any I'm near postal code J0K 1C0.


Results:


Red A roof-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level and above (about 6 channels)


Grey These channels are very weak and will most likely require extreme measures to try and pick them up (about 8 channels)


Thanks!


----------



## arxaw

You likely need an outdoor antenna.


It would help if you posted the TVFool results.

Use the mapping tool option and drag the red map pointer directly over the location.

Enter estimated antenna height and click "Make Radar Plot"

Post a link to the results page here. The location and map will *not* display on the results page.


Until you've made 5 posts, you cannot post links. But if you post the truncated link, we can still figure out the rest of it.


----------



## silvercity22

Perfect I'll try what you mentioned and post the results. However pls note that my friend does not want to put an outdoor antenna...he barely watches tv and does not want to go through the trouble of mounting an antenna...it's mostly to watch the news late at night.


Thanks.


----------



## silvercity22

I moved the red map pointer to the location the cottage is located and it seems that more channels appeared and some with green and yellow...which I guess means that those channels can be caught better with an indoor antenna. Here are the results...I hope I'm doing it right....any suggestions...thanks.


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9c6b4b1331dbae


----------



## arxaw

I wouldn't expect very reliable reception with an indoor antenna, if that TVFool is correct for the location.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KNKLHEAD* /forum/post/18417703
> 
> 
> Hi!
> 
> 
> What a great site and excellent reference. I have unplugged satellite and cable and happily using Windows Media Center 7, HD Homerun network based tuners and a few usb tuners to have a TV bill of ZERO. I also have a homemade youtube antenna on the roof about 30 feet up.
> 
> 
> All is working well, but I thought I'd try to upgrade the signals I get and try to get something on the roof that is a bit more aesthetically pleasing.
> 
> 
> My TV Fool is:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db7c8fa5765da39[/URL
> 
> 
> I would also like to maximize the Buffalo television stations AND try to pull in the Canadian stations, pretty much directly across the water, including Toronto -- stations like City TV, etc.
> 
> 
> I have a few stations "behind" me that are fairly close, and from what I can tell, an almost due northwest-ish point seems best. Recommendations on antenna and possible rotor would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> If I can help anyone use their computer as a media center and tuners, I'd be happy to add to the resources available here. My free digital TV and a $9 subscription keeps us in front of the TV much more than we need!



Welcome to the forum.


We do get a lot of questions about using a computer with a tuner; your experience should be helpful.


Because you are not yet able to post an active link for your tvfool report, I'll post it for you:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c8fa5765da39 


Which youtube design are you using; the 7" x 5-3/4" design is not optimum. How long is your coax downlead? Are you using any splitters?


Most of your channels are on UHF (14-51). If you want WNGS 7, CFTO 9, and CHCH 11, you will need an antenna for VHF-hi (7-9) and UHF. If you must have CBLT 5, you will need an antenna for VHF-low (2-6), VHF-hi, and UHF. This type of all-channel antenna is very large because the elements must be longer for VHF-low. A suitable antenna for VHF-hi and UHF would be something in the Winegard HD7694-HD7698 series:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/index.php 


The Channel Master CM 9521A rotator seems to be popular:
http://www.channelmasterstore.com/An...ators_s/33.htm 


When you use a rotator to pick up signals from different directions, your tuner must be able to add a channel after scan.


Your local stations are quite strong, so you might not be able to tolerate much preamplification before reaching the tuner overload point.


----------



## silvercity22




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18458579
> 
> 
> I wouldn't expect very reliable reception with an indoor antenna, if that TVFool is correct for the location.



Thanks for the info. I just told my friend that he wouldn't get reliable reception and he said that he would be willing to put a small antenna outside (I kinda convinced him







)...is there something you could suggest? Small is key here...his cottage is really really tiny.


Thanks.


----------



## Mw182006




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mw182006* /forum/post/18411436
> 
> 
> First, here's my tvfool results (ground floor of apt): http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c8936ba27011



So I'm back...I went out and grabbed the basic Radio Shack rabbit/loop setup and was at least able to pick up some channels. The problem is, the reception looks to be pretty weak. My TV gives me a signal strength indicator and most channels look like they're


----------



## arxaw

Use a barrel splice (not a splitter) to connect a longer piece of RG6 coax to the antenna. Don't use RG59. Get the antenna near a window that faces the transmitters and extend the dipole rods about half their length, in a "V"


You should be able to get all the "green" stations on your TVFool report fairly easily. If not, you may be getting interference from something in your house. Compact fluorescent lamps, wireless routers or *anything else* wireless you own, should be temporarily powered down, to eliminate the possibility of interference from these devices. See:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post18474662


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *silvercity22* /forum/post/18456217
> 
> 
> So we're basically looking for an antenna that will allow us to watch tv with better reception...anything under $50. Any recommendations or ideas.



As long as he's got a digital tuner:

http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref/=nb_sb_ne...21HD&x=21&y=18 


If you want even smaller, you could try the CM-4220HD, maybe even with a pre-amp like the Winegard AP8700, but the 4221 would be even better.


----------



## silvercity22

Thanks I'll definitely look into this. Excuse my ignorance but why would he need a digital tuner and could you recommend me one. And what would a pre-amp do?


Thanks for your help.


----------



## Mw182006




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18476524
> 
> 
> Use a barrel splice (not a splitter) to connect a longer piece of RG6 coax to the antenna. Don't use RG59. Get the antenna near a window that faces the transmitters and extend the dipole rods about half their length, in a "V"
> 
> 
> You should be able to get all the "green" stations on your TVFool report fairly easily. If not, you may be getting interference from something in your house. Compact fluorescent lamps, wireless routers or *anything else* wireless you own, should be temporarily powered down, to eliminate the possibility of interference from these devices. See:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post18474662



I tried your suggestions and there were some improvements. I was already using a RG6 cable as luck would have it, so I added the connector and a longer run of coax to try some new locations. I also disabled the wireless network since all my devices are wired. Unfortunately the antenna location options are pretty limited in this apartment, and my windows are flanked by A/C units which can't be helping the matter.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mw182006* /forum/post/18502010
> 
> 
> I tried your suggestions and there were some improvements. I was already using a RG6 cable as luck would have it, so I added the connector and a longer run of coax to try some new locations. I also disabled the wireless network since all my devices are wired. Unfortunately the antenna location options are pretty limited in this apartment, and my windows are flanked by A/C units which can't be helping the matter.



Oh well, at least you saw some improvement. It's possible that wireless devices in other nearby apartments are also intefering with reception.


----------



## holl_ands

Before blaming wireless systems, try turning them ON & OFF to see if it makes any difference.

Same for any nearby neighbors....ditto air conditioners, or anything with a motor or a processor chip....

also fluorescent lights (incl. compact fluorescent) and dimmer switches....


----------



## Sandiar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14047539



awesome chart thanks


----------



## smokarz

hi everyone, i've been using an indoor Terk HDTV antenna to supplement my cable for better HD quality local channels.


however, i am now seriously thinking of ditching my cable entirely and just go with the OVA. therefore i am looking for a better/stronger antenna.


I have a DirecTV pole outside in front of my lawn that's about 4ft high. I am thinking of getting the DB2 and mount it there so i can use the existing cable. What do you think, is this my best option? Thanks!


here's the antennaweb map of my local stations. thanks in advance for the feedback.


----------



## arxaw

nicoge21,

All sorts of electrical devices emit radio frequency noise that can interfere with OTA reception.


----------



## conquistador

I'm looking for a little advice about my antenna options. My TV Fool report is here:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dcd72d4de4642ec 


I'm interested in receiving all stations in the list up through WTVD (channel 11) with the exception of WUVC. The PBS tower is 17 miles away in one direction, while all the rest are about 21 miles away in the other direction. WTVD is VHF, the rest are UHF.


I live in a first floor apartment facing north, and I'd like to connect an indoor antenna to a PVR via an HDHomerun. Because I'd be using this to record shows while I'm not around, fiddling around with the antenna for different channels is not an option. Placing the antenna outside is also not an option. Furthermore, I don't want to deal with dropouts and poor reception during rain and wind. After doing a little reading on this forum, I suspect my expectations are unreasonable. Do you think I can get the quality I'm looking for with an indoor antenna?


I've tried an RE/loop antenna (the RCA ANT111). I can get the PBS station great from any reasonable placement of the antenna. I've been able to get all the others from one placement or another, but never all at the same time. Do you think it would be worthwhile for me to try a different antenna, or do you think I'm seeing about the best I can expect?


Many thanks for any advice you can offer.


----------



## arxaw

If you're having indoor reception problems and live in an apartment, I also suspect your expectations *may* be unreasonable. Impossible to tell from here, though. You may have interference problems causing some of your reception issues.


With indoor reception, finding a hot spot for all the channels of interest is (and away from indoor interference sources), in some cases, more important than the antenna you are using. Have you tried connecting a longer extension coax on the antenna and trying different spots in the apt?


Check your Private Messages .


----------



## holl_ands

Try a higher gain antenna, such as the DIY M4 (9.5x9) 4-Bay:
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweath...0Drawings.html 

Without a reflector, it's easier to "hide" and has better Hi-VHF performance.

Gain charts:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay 


If you prefer to buy an antenna, try a 2-Bay, ClearStream1 or ClearStream2.


Post #1 also has some of EV's favorites.....


----------



## conquistador

Thanks for the responses. I'll explore the antenna suggestions from arxaw and holl_ands. I'll also play around with the antenna placement a bit more, although there are really only a couple general areas I'm willing to put it.


Out of curiosity, why is it better to extend the dipoles only 14" instead of all the way? And does it matter whether it's the skinniest segment that's extended or the thickest?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *conquistador* /forum/post/18585322
> 
> 
> ... there are really only a couple general areas I'm willing to put it.



That may greatly affect your chances of finding a suitable hot spot for all channels.



> Quote:
> Out of curiosity, why is it better to extend the dipoles only 14" instead of all the way? And does it matter whether it's the skinniest segment that's extended or the thickest?



That length will help make the rods closely resonant with the frequency of your lone VHF channel. Extending them all the way out would be necessary to optimize them for stations broadcasting on ("real" channels) 2 thru 6, which you have none of in your area.


Extend them all the way out, then collapse the thinnest (upper) parts of the rods, leaving just the larger diameter lower part extended to the 14" length.


----------



## partsman_ba

Could you guys remind me of the optimum length if you have VHF 9 & 13? They are crapping out on me again!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *partsman_ba* /forum/post/18589008
> 
> 
> Could you guys remind me of the optimum length if you have VHF 9 & 13? They are crapping out on me again!



Around 28"to 30" tip-to-tip is close enough...


----------



## partsman_ba

Must have been atmospheric - working OK again today. Can't pick up both 9 & 13 unless dipoles are completely spread, one is touching a metal doorknob, and antenna amplifier is turned on but not amplifying (just above off position.) I'm guessing it has something to do with placement (interior of house) and multipath interference, since I am


----------



## arxaw

It could be some sort of interference in your house or even a nearby FM radio station. Those can interfere with VHF stations.
http://fmfool.com 


Have you tried putting the antenna near a window? VHF does not travel through some walls well at all.


----------



## conquistador

An update on my antenna: Based on arxaw's suggestion in a private message, I picked up the model from Radio Shack that's similar to my first antenna. I put it in the most convenient location for me, tried it out, and it picked up every station I wanted with no adjustments whatsoever! So it's looking good so far.


Now I'm waiting for a thunderstorm to see how well it performs then. I also haven't tried hooking it up to an HDHomerun (don't have one yet). If it doesn't hold up under either of those scenarios, I'll look into a 2-bay or Clearstream as holl_ands suggested.


I do have another question: Would there be any problem with placing two of these antennas near each other? The HDHomerun accepts two inputs to record two channels simultaneously. I'm guessing I'd be better off using a splitter (and possibly an amp) from one antenna, but I'm curious if two antennas is a reasonable alternative.


----------



## arxaw

I would try a splitter first.


----------



## GrandPixel

What do I need to do for antenna recommendation? tvfool.com best place to start? Where do I go from there?


----------



## GrandPixel

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...cd72fd7ce4adc9


----------



## arxaw

Enter your address here and post a link to the results page back in this forum, for antenna suggestions. Your address will not display on the results page.


----------



## Goldenmom

Hi. I am in need of a recommendation for an indoor antenna. This will be for a new 32 Panasonic Viera TV located in a room on the northwest corner of a one story brick home. There is a large window facing north near the TV. Apparently I am unable to post my TV Fool results as I haven't made 3 posts.

Also, I'm confused because my Antennaweb results aren't as positive but I don't think I can link to those even if I could post it now.


Thank you for any help you can provide.


----------



## rabbit73

Welcome to the forum Goldenmom,


It is possible for us to get a rough idea of your situation just from a zip code, but since the TV will be located "in a room on the northwest corner of a one story brick home" we need to know the direction of the transmitters.


Go to tvfool.com again and enter your exact address, which will not show in the report. Copy and paste the URL in bold type near the top of the report.

Enter in your next post the part of the URL that comes after .com/ and we can turn it into a working link.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18663662
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...cd72fd7ce4adc9


 This antenna , aimed roughly West/Northwest should get solid reception of your channels of interest.


----------



## charkat

I just bought my first HDTV and wanted to get an indoor digital TV antenna. Here is the link to TV fool signal analysis for my location. Its an apartment and TV's back is facing the south east wall.


As i am not allowed to post the URL as its my first post, here is the address of my location: ZIP 98052; REDMOND, WA


Appreciate suggestions for right antenna.


Thanks,

Charkat


----------



## Goldenmom

Thank you for responding Rabbit73!


Here is my TV Fool report:

*?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe004b1990cc*


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Goldenmom* /forum/post/18673841
> 
> 
> Thank you for responding Rabbit73!
> 
> 
> Here is my TV Fool report:
> 
> *?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe004b1990cc*



You're welcome, Goldenmom; your tvfool report should look like this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe004b1990cc 


Your strongest transmitters are located southeast of you, so the signals will have to travel through your building to get to the indoor antenna at the northwest corner of your home. Fortunately, the signals are quite strong. It is also possible that some signals might be reflected through the large window from buildings north of you. If not, you might need to consider a location on the south side of your home. A metal screen, metal venetian blinds, or low-e glass in a window can block signals. An attic antenna is another possibility.


I suggest that you first try an unamplified rabbit ears and loop antenna, like the Radio Shack catalog #15-1874 . The rabbit ears are for your lone VHF channel 11 (NBC), and the loop is for the other channels that are UHF. If it doesn't work, you can return it but I would keep it and experiment with various locations with a coax extension cable joined to the antenna coax with an F-81 coupler , which also comes in gold.


Some of the other guys here will also probably have some helpful suggestions for you.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Goldenmom* /forum/post/18669469
> 
> 
> Hi. I am in need of a recommendation for an indoor antenna. This will be for a new 32 Panasonic Viera TV located in a room on the northwest corner of a one story brick home. There is a large window facing north near the TV. Apparently I am unable to post my TV Fool results as I haven't made 3 posts.
> 
> Also, I'm confused because my Antennaweb results aren't as positive but I don't think I can link to those even if I could post it now.
> 
> 
> Thank you for any help you can provide.



A majority of persons, who quantify signals being received here, think that TVFool is a more accurate predictor than Antennaweb in my opinion. Originally, Antennaweb suggested that digital reception would only be possible for analog signals that were very good or excellent. I haven't found that to be the case. All analog UHF signals here had major problems analog, while the digital picture is quite a relief. As far as an antenna, I wouldn't be frightened away from trying an amplified one, as long as you can return it if it doesn't work. Good Luck.


----------



## deltaguy

I purchased some soda at Walmart earlier this week. In the process, I looked at their A/V accessories section. I don't think this was available before. For $5.50 or so, you can get a 75 ohm matching transformer and a two-screw slide-on adapter. This is the transformer that came with the Mant 510 that is on page 1 here with the single classic bowtie. While I didn't see a classic bowtie for sale at Walmart, this combo would work great for adding extra coax to antennas with a twin-lead flat wire, like the classic bowtie. It's probably better than using a barrel splice. I realize these items can be purchased for less online. The Walmart website doesn't show this item.


----------



## medspeaking

My TV Fool results here: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe3933814d3d 


Have 2 HD televisions, one upstairs, one downstairs. Just wanting to get primary OTA network channels but with PBS as my priority. Currently have old rabbit ears on the downstairs set which used to get PBS just fine but lately is breaking up until it's unwatchable. Hubby not keen on installing an outside antenna for me but will do an indoor attic antenna. Antennaweb suggests a small multidirectional antenna. Can anyone point me to a specific model/brand antenna that will work for me? Do I need to place it facing a specific direction? Hubby will do the actual physical work if I (with the help of you guys) do the legwork and order the antenna and tell him the specifics. Sure appreciate the help.


----------



## arxaw

* This antenna * should work well in your attic, *unless* you have:

metal roof

foil-backed radiant barrier roof decking

foil-backed radiant barrier gable end insulation

If any of these apply, all bets are off as to whether an attic install will work reliably.

This antenna is not very large. See: http://i50.tinypic.com/10wrxms.jpg 


Hang a mast or piece of PVC or even an old broom handle down from the roof rafters and clamp the antenna onto that. Using a compass, aim it roughly 100° (just slightly to the right of due East).


Connect the antenna to your TV using RG6 coax cable, available at HomeyDespot, Lowes or Radio Shaft. Your signals are strong enough to split to more than one TV.


Unlike outdoor antennas, attic antennas do not have to be grounded.


----------



## medspeaking




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18679983
> 
> * This antenna * should work well in your attic, *unless* you have:
> 
> metal roof
> 
> foil-backed radiant barrier roof decking
> 
> foil-backed radiant barrier gable end insulation
> 
> If any of these apply, all bets are off as to whether an attic install will work reliably.
> 
> This antenna is not very large. See: http://i50.tinypic.com/10wrxms.jpg
> 
> 
> Hang a mast or piece of PVC or even an old broom handle down from the roof rafters and clamp the antenna onto that. Using a compass, aim it roughly 100° (just slightly to the right of due East).
> 
> 
> Connect the antenna to your TV using RG6 coax cable, available at HomeyDespot, Lowes or Radio Shaft. Your signals are strong enough to split to more than one TV.
> 
> 
> Unlike outdoor antennas, attic antennas do not have to be grounded.



Super advice! Showed it to hubby and he says this is very doable. Can you tell me exactly what antenna that is...make/model ? Am totally lost without that info. But it looks perfect. Can't thank you enough!


----------



## GrandPixel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18672026
> 
> This antenna , aimed roughly West/Northwest should get solid reception of your channels of interest.



Why that antenna over all other antennas out there? I am somewhat new to antenna technologies.


----------



## arxaw

GrandPixel,

Based on past experience, it is a good choice for the specific channels being used in the area *and* the signal strength shown on the TVFool results.


@medspeaking,

The brand/model are shown in the link I posted:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0024R4B5C/ 

The photo link was to show how large that antenna is.


----------



## medspeaking

Placed the order, Arxaw. Appreciate your taking the time to help.


----------



## charkat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *charkat* /forum/post/18673054
> 
> 
> I just bought my first HDTV and wanted to get an indoor digital TV antenna. Here is the link to TV fool signal analysis for my location. Its an apartment and TV's back is facing the south east wall.
> 
> 
> As i am not allowed to post the URL as its my first post, here is the address of my location: ZIP 98052; REDMOND, WA
> 
> 
> Appreciate suggestions for right antenna.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Charkat



Any one please suggest. Appreciate your help.


----------



## arxaw

Repost the part of the TVFool link that the system will allow. We can determine what the complete URL is.


----------



## charkat

thanks ARXAW,



here is the trailing part of URL after com


/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbeb5ad7d486f


Thanks in advance,


Yogesh Bhatt


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18682462
> 
> 
> Repost the part of the TVFool link that the system will allow. We can determine what the complete URL is.



Charkat, I think, if you post again, it will allow you to put the whole URL as it will be your third post. If not, check above for GoldenMom's example. Need to get more accurate location info as the Seattle metro area has such interesting topography


----------



## charkat

Here is the full URL partsman_ba:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbeb5ad7d486f 


Thanks,

Charkat


----------



## arxaw

An indoor antenna may not be sufficient for you to reliably receive the major networks, per your TVFool. All the majors are in "yellow," which often (but not always) requires an attic or outdoor antenna for reliable reception.


If you want to try an indoor antenna, I would try this one . Extend the dipole rods in a wide "V" and no longer than about 14" each. Longer lengths will not be resonant with the VHF channels (fox & pbs) in your area. The loop is for all the other channels on UHF.


There is no magic indoor "digital" antenna. Where you locate an indoor antenna is usually the biggest factor in successful indoor reception. You may need to find a hot spot away from other interfering electrical & wireless devices. Even your TV can interfere with indoor reception. To do this, add several feet of coax to the antenna, using a barrel splice . Move the antenna around to different locations and you may find a hot spot for your channels of interest. A west facing window would likely be best.


----------



## charkat

thanks much ARXAW. I purchased ClearStream 2 yesterday from Costco and would give it a shot to find a hot spot you suggested. Thanks.


----------



## arxaw

The ClearStream2 is a UHF antenna. You have both UHF & VHF stations.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

He'll likely get his PBS and CW stations fine with the C2, but Fox is probably going to be a "no-show' since it's both on VHF-13 and it transmits from the other side of Bremerton.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18690296
> 
> 
> ... Fox is probably going to be a "no-show' since it's both on VHF-13..



A dipole rabbit ear would've been a better choice, but maybe the OP will luck out.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18690830
> 
> 
> A dipole rabbit ear would've been a better choice, but maybe the OP will luck out.



No doubt...


----------



## blx9

Looking for a recommendation. I'm only interested in ABC, NBC, CBS and FOX. Best I can do is attic mount. Single story house, surrounded by a row of 25 - 30ft trees but not very thick.


TVFool link is http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe8e871d951f


----------



## MickB

Thanks to this thread I went to Radio Shack and picked up the amplified HDTV antenna. I mounted it behind my Panasonic Plasma and I get all the OTA channels clear as day. Tomorrow I tell Comcast they can take their encoded HD channels and shove it!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blx9* /forum/post/18693593
> 
> 
> Looking for a recommendation. I'm only interested in ABC, NBC, CBS and FOX. Best I can do is attic mount. Single story house, surrounded by a row of 25 - 30ft trees but not very thick.
> 
> 
> TVFool link is http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe8e871d951f



If your TVFool is correct, it shows significant distance and multiple hills in the way. You can try an attic antenna, but it's impossible to tell if it will work.


I would try this antenna:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7698P 

Connect it to this low noise, high gain preamp:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM-7777 


Aim the antenna compass direction 344° (North/NorthWest). Use the TV's (numeric or bars) signal meter menu for tweaking antenna aim.


If your roof is tile or metal or you have foil radiant barrier on the underside of the roof decking or gable walls, forget an attic install.


----------



## blx9




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18696432
> 
> 
> If your TVFool is correct, it shows significant distance and multiple hills in the way. You can try an attic antenna, but it's impossible to tell if it will work.
> 
> 
> I would try this antenna:
> 
> 
> Connect it to this low noise, high gain preamp:
> 
> 
> 
> Aim the antenna compass direction 344° (North/NorthWest). Use the TV's (numeric or bars) signal meter menu for tweaking antenna aim.
> 
> 
> If your roof is tile or metal or you have foil radiant barrier on the underside of the roof decking or gable walls, forget an attic install.




I'm really hesitant to permanently attach an antenna to the exterior of the house. If I have to go that route to make it work, what height would you imagine I need and would you still recommend that antenna and preamp? Thanks


----------



## arxaw

Yes, both 7698 antenna and the 7777 preamp.


Extra height often improves signal strength significantly. Estimate how high you think you could put the antenna and re-enter that height with your address at tvfool.com. Compare it to your original result.


----------



## partsman_ba

You probably should check out the outdoor antenna threads here on AVS for more info. Didn't realize there was any place on the east coast that was so bad for picking up signals. It is possible to get good OTA even with your signal levels - here, check out my parents' TVFool. They get the VHF channels listed at 115 degrees from Boise, ID (because the only antenna they have up is a really old VHF.)

Past the middle of nowhere and take a right


----------



## JHawk

Help please.....I have a small cabin between KC and Topeka. To the east of the cabin is a hill with lots of trees so I'm thinking the KC stations are out. The cabin faces west and I have a fairly clear shot across the lake to the west toward Topeka. Here's the TV Fool info...
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe2955d75598 

The significant other says she wants the antenna mounted on the railing on the deck and she doesn't want an "old school" antenna.


Any suggestions would be appreciated.

TIA,

JHawk


----------



## holl_ands

Unless you're content watching PBS, a Satellite Dish may be your best choice.....


----------



## arxaw

If your TVFool is correct, you have some hills in the way between you and the transmitters. If anything would work at all, it would be a large fringe antenna and low noise preamp . IOW, "old school" like this one .


But as holl_ands said, you'll probably need to sub to a locals only package like the one from Dish Network (if still available), unless PBS is all you want.


If the cabin is in a rural area, retry TVFool using the mapping tool and satellite view. Drag/drop the red map pointer over your cabin for more accurate results.


----------



## partsman_ba

Definitely going to have to go "old school" for OTA, JHawk. But it will work - see my link above for a worse reception area.


----------



## JHawk

holl_ands, arxaw and partsman thank you for your responses. What I am about to tell you I still find hard to believe. Given my wife's no old school mandate I went to Best Buy and bought a Clearstream 2. I figured it wouldn't work and I could take it back after showing her its limitations and exchange it for the "old school" variety. I hung the Clearstream on a nail under the eave on the west side of the cabin. I hooked an old Motorola amp to the coax and then to my 6year old Zenith plasma. Much to my delight I got all of the Topeka stations. I even got KQTV from St. Joseph which is 72 miles away. Hope this not some cosmic abnormality as the HD really is great.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JHawk* /forum/post/18710645
> 
> 
> holl_ands, arxaw and partsman thank you for your responses. What I am about to tell you I still find hard to believe. Given my wife's no old school mandate I went to Best Buy and bought a Clearstream 2. I figured it wouldn't work and I could take it back after showing her its limitations and exchange it for the "old school" variety. I hung the Clearstream on a nail under the eave on the west side of the cabin. I hooked an old Motorola amp to the coax and then to my 6year old Zenith plasma. Much to my delight I got all of the Topeka stations. I even got KQTV from St. Joseph which is 72 miles away. Hope this not some cosmic abnormality as the HD really is great.



It is a bit of a cosmic (sort of) abnormality. Major tropo-enhancement and ducting going on right now.


Give it a few days or weeks to see how it varies.


I was doing some experimenting in Olathe yesterday afternoon with a C2. I was able to see Channels 11 and 13 out of Topeka and could barely see channel 7 on the noise background out of St Joe on my scope.


----------



## pvotlucka

I made a homemade CM 4221 copy without screen on first floor behind window of sliding doors (facing south). The signal is coming in from east. The results are varies with no vhf signal coming in. Slight improvement when I held the antenna outside in direction of transmitter. I can get the vhf with rabbit ears but it can cut out completely depending on weather. The LOA is obstructed with lots of metal gates, many steel rails that surround the patio and huge, tree and house across the street. I was going to go back there and install the antenna on second floor which I drew a picture (it is same as first floor).


Question 1: Which antenna should I buy?


Question 2: Where to mount this antenna? The thick rails are an option. Maybe a tripod? The manager does not want anything drilled or outside of patio which includes roof. I will get a flat coax to go along door jam to prevent drilling. Those patio rails are very thick, round (12" circumference) and painted white.


Thank you


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pvotlucka* /forum/post/18718272
> 
> *Question 1:* Which antenna should I buy?



I would get This one or this one , aimed compass direction ~46°


.



> Quote:
> *Question 2:* Where to mount this antenna? The thick rails are an option. Maybe a tripod?



If possible, perhaps a mast stuck in a big flower pot filled with pea gravel or even concrete.


----------



## Clint S.

Does anyone know anything about this " NavyStar NSHDA01 amplified 28db digital HDTV antenna "?


----------



## arxaw

Likely too small to work well for the two or three VHF stations you have in the BR area. Of course, a lot has to do with how far from the transmitters you are.


For antenna suggestions, post a link to your TVFool results in this thread.


----------



## pvotlucka

Arxaw - I really like that set up and antenna choices. The Winegard HD 7694P High Definition VHF/UHF looks higher gain for few dollars more (fantastic specs on gain). I can mount it in the center of the patio using the concrete in the flower pot with centered pole (great idea!). The building manager will have nothing to complain about with this setup! Thank you!


----------



## smakovits

In Cleveland, pretty close to the local towers. Looking for a good HDTV antenna. The rabbit ears can work in the living room but only pick up local CBS in the basement. Was looking at the Monoprice 4730 but it seems to get mixed results. I am hoping to pick up all locals and maybe a few of the other channels broadcasting in the local area. Thanks. Here is what I get from TVfool:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe4dd2bb8573


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18719247
> 
> 
> Likely too small to work well for the two or three VHF stations you have in the BR area. Of course, a lot has to do with how far from the transmitters you are.
> 
> 
> For antenna suggestions, post a link to your TVFool results in this thread.



I've posted them in this thread before, but where.......I have no idea.







The farthest stations are about ~17 miles away. I was just curious if anyone has tried that antenna or heard anything about it . Here we go, I found them . But what I don't understand is what good are TVFool stats when nothing is known about an antenna.









Thanks.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Clint S.* /forum/post/18723954
> 
> 
> I've posted them in this thread before, but where.......I have no idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The farthest stations are about ~17 miles away. I was just curious if anyone has tried that antenna or heard anything about it... But what I don't understand is what good are TVFool stats when nothing is known about an antenna.



I have never seen that antenna.


TVFool would determine whether it would be a good choice at your location. Since you're very close to the towers, it would likely not be a good choice for you because it's amplified, and amplified antennas don't usually work well close to the towers.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18724016
> 
> 
> I have never seen that antenna.
> 
> 
> TVFool would determine whether it would be a good choice at your location. Since you're very close to the towers, it would likely not be a good choice for you because it's amplified, and amplified antennas don't usually work well close to the towers.



Thanks for the input.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smakovits* /forum/post/18723400
> 
> 
> In Cleveland, pretty close to the local towers. Looking for a good HDTV antenna. The rabbit ears can work in the living room but only pick up local CBS in the basement. Was looking at the Monoprice 4730 but it seems to get mixed results. I am hoping to pick up all locals and maybe a few of the other channels broadcasting in the local area. Thanks. Here is what I get from TVfool:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe4dd2bb8573



You are right on top of many of the towers, so the last thing you need is an amplified antenna. What you probably need for the basement TV is an antenna not located in the basement. You likely have very strong reflected bounced signals (multipath) in a basement at that location.


----------



## smakovits




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18724037
> 
> 
> You are right on top of many of the towers, so the last thing you need is an amplified antenna. What you probably need for the basement TV is an antenna not located in the basement. You likely have very strong reflected bounced signals (multipath) in a basement at that location.



Is there anything better than the $10 rabbit ears from radio shack that I can use down there? non-amplified? I would like a solution that can be kept in the basement if at all possible. To get an attic antenna to the basement is not very feasible. Thanks for the help!


----------



## arxaw

At your distance from the towers, you don't need anything more than a budget RS antenna. There is no antenna that will magically find multipath-free signals below grade in a basement, which is about the worst place to have an OTA antenna. It's impossible to predict in this forum what, if anything will work in such a situation.


Your best bet is to take a simple rabbit ear/loop and try it in different places in the room, in hopes of finding a sweet spot that will get all your channels of interest. Add a longer length of coax to the antenna to do this. If the coax is hardwired to the antenna, use a barrel splice to add a longer cable. Sometimes, just moving the antenna a foot or less left/right, or changing height up/down can help a lot in difficult reception areas. But it takes a lot of trial & error.


----------



## smakovits

Thanks, I will give it a shot. So attic antennas are the best option here? and and amplified antenna would be bad/wont do anything for me because it is in a basement.


----------



## partsman_ba

With those signal levels, you ought to be able to get WKYC through your fillings in your mouth! Could you split your living room rabbit ears/loop and feed off that? Or just move the ears/loop around up high in the basement until you find a solid signal? You could try one of the directional antennas on page 1, aimed west, if you don't want to do either.


----------



## pvotlucka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smakovits* /forum/post/18725070
> 
> 
> Thanks, I will give it a shot. So attic antennas are the best option here? and and amplified antenna would be bad/wont do anything for me because it is in a basement.



I had to do this process myself. The local electronic store had a 75ft coax for $20 - hooked it up to the tv and RCA rabbit ears. Then set up your weakest channel with the signal meter in your converter box. Proceed to roam around the perimeter of each room with rabbit ears. If you turn up volume on the TV you can hear the signal getting stronger or weaker. If you have a small window in basement - open it and run the cable/antenna outside toward where the transmission towers. If still there is no improvement, try first floor and keep going up until you find it. Yes, you can go straight to the roof with it and save some time but you mentioned that was too difficult. So work from the least difficult location to hardest (further away from TV).


In my case the bedroom window was the sweet spot (see pic). Leaving the RCA rabbit ears on the window did not make opening and closing the window easy. The signal did best when the ears are horizontal. ----- So I made my rabbit ears out of two copper pipes inserted block of wood. It was suspended to make it easy to open the window. In addition the signal came in the highest right at mid level. If I went a few inches up, down or sideways the TV signal meter would drop. Believe me it is that sensitive. The second antenna on the wall is just for one station 60 miles away in another direction. Good luck with your signal hunt!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smakovits* /forum/post/18725070
> 
> 
> Thanks, I will give it a shot. So attic antennas are the best option here? and and amplified antenna would be bad/wont do anything for me because it is in a basement.



If you can't find a sweet spot where multipath isn't bad, an amplified antenna won't help with signals that strong. Attic or splitting off your other antenna would be better.


----------



## funky2006

Hi,


I would like to buy a new indoor (or outdoor) antenna. I have been using Phillips Mant 510 for last 3-4 years in the following location.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe24cb5aa928 


(I will be more than happy to get only the green channels as shown in the tvfool)


I always have to move the antenna around in the living room to get all the channels. For example, if I receive FOX, then I may not receive CBS unless I move it to another location. Getting ABC is also a constant problem as it takes a lot of maneuvering. I would like to buy an antenna which I don't have to move it around as I switch from one channel to another.


My Mant 510 is now half broken and I would like to buy a new antenna (indoor preferably). If Indoor is not a good solution, which outdoor or attic antenna will be appropriate?


I will appreciate for any help.


Thank you!


----------



## ryoungz

Just moved to a 3rd floor apartment in a new city and could use some help setting up my TV for OTA. Antenna will be connecting to a Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 installed in my HTPC and outputting to a 32" Panasonic Viera TC-32LX70 that will be on the living room wall facing due north (about 12 feet directly across from with windows to the front of the apartment).


There are three taller buildings in my LOS, but only one of them is anywhere near the field of view from my window towards the towers. My TV Fool results are http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe5260d00591 


Any help choosing an antenna would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## pvotlucka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funky2006* /forum/post/18738646
> 
> 
> Hi, I would like to buy a new indoor (or outdoor) antenna. I have been using Phillips Mant 510 for last 3-4 years in the following location.



I see your mentioned UHF stations are coming from the south at 194 (CBS) and 197 (ABC+Fox) degrees from about 30 miles away. Funky, what is the obstruction that makes you have to move the antenna for each channel? Is it a wall, building, large tree?


The Channel Master 4228HD 8-bay HDTV/UHF TV Antenna would be one option. You can try this near tv along the wall. If reception is still not good then mount up in the attic or roof - which hopefully would eliminate the signal obstruction.


You can also look at neighbors homes/roof top to see what they are using as another reference.


----------



## pvotlucka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ryoungz* /forum/post/18738855
> 
> 
> Just moved to a 3rd floor apartment in a new city and could use some help setting up my TV for OTA. Antenna will be connecting to a Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 installed in my HTPC and outputting to a 32" Panasonic Viera TC-32LX70 that will be on the living room wall facing due north (about 12 feet directly across from with windows to the front of the apartment).
> 
> 
> There are three taller buildings in my LOS, but only one of them is anywhere near the field of view from my window towards the towers. My TV Fool results are http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe5260d00591
> 
> 
> Any help choosing an antenna would be greatly appreciated!



Have you done a scan of channels with rabbit ears? If your windows are facing north that is good since your signals are coming from north east (48 and 52 degrees) from 10 miles away pics attached. Make sure your TV signal meter is on and move antenna around to find sweet spot along the window. There are two more stations northwest 324° KPXM-DT 41.1 ION and WUMN-CA UNI ch13 east 69°. These are harder to get.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funky2006* /forum/post/18738646
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I would like to buy a new indoor (or outdoor) antenna. I have been using Phillips Mant 510 for last 3-4 years in the following location.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe24cb5aa928
> 
> 
> (I will be more than happy to get only the green channels as shown in the tvfool)
> 
> 
> I always have to move the antenna around in the living room to get all the channels. For example, if I receive FOX, then I may not receive CBS unless I move it to another location. Getting ABC is also a constant problem as it takes a lot of maneuvering. I would like to buy an antenna which I don't have to move it around as I switch from one channel to another.
> 
> 
> My Mant 510 is now half broken and I would like to buy a new antenna (indoor preferably). If Indoor is not a good solution, which outdoor or attic antenna will be appropriate?
> 
> 
> I will appreciate for any help.
> 
> 
> Thank you!



There's a Winegard dealer in Garland. If they carry the SS-3000, and will allow you to return it if it doesn't work, it is an indoor antenna that is better than the Mant 510. No guarantees on being able to set it and forget it though. Indoor reception is often a participation sport.


----------



## ryoungz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pvotlucka* /forum/post/18739139
> 
> 
> Have you done a scan of channels with rabbit ears? If your windows are facing north that is good since your signals are coming from north east (48 and 52 degrees) from 10 miles away pics attached. Make sure your TV signal meter is on and move antenna around to find sweet spot.



I'll pick up a set of rabbit ears from Radio Shack tomorrow and check it out. Thanks for the quick reply.


----------



## funky2006




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pvotlucka* /forum/post/18739003
> 
> 
> I see your mentioned UHF stations are coming from the south at 194 (CBS) and 197 (ABC+Fox) degrees from about 30 miles away. Funky, what is the obstruction that makes you have to move the antenna for each channel? Is it a wall, building, large tree?
> 
> 
> The Channel Master 4228HD 8-bay HDTV/UHF TV Antenna would be one option. You can try this near tv along the wall. If reception is still not good then mount up in the attic or roof - which hopefully would eliminate the signal obstruction.
> 
> 
> You can also look at neighbors homes/roof top to see what they are using as another reference.



pvotlucka, thank you for your help and posting the images. I believe the obstruction is the wall (or my house) as my living room is in the northeast side of the house while the signal is coming from the southwest. I did some research on CM 4228HD just now. Looks like it is quite powerful. Do you think it will pick up the VHF signals too? In Dallas, several channels are in VHF. Also, how do you compare the CM 4228HD to the SS-3000 as the deltaguy suggested? Thank You!


----------



## funky2006




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/18739181
> 
> 
> There's a Winegard dealer in Garland. If they carry the SS-3000, and will allow you to return it if it doesn't work, it is an indoor antenna that is better than the Mant 510. No guarantees on being able to set it and forget it though. Indoor reception is often a participation sport.



Thank you deltaguy for the suggestion and looking up the dealership in Garland. I had enough fun participating in the indoor reception sport last 3-4 years (moving the antenna around) and looking for a permanent solution







. SS-3000 can be the one but as you said, it is hard to know without trying. How do you compare the SS-3000 to the CM 4228HD?

Thanks!


----------



## pvotlucka

I have not tried SS-3000 but would like to. It is a lot easier on the eyes. You can easily move it around for signal adjustments. Being able to return it locally if it does not work out is an attractive option. The fellow at the store can help you upgrade for attic/roof as needed. They may be able to give you more specific advice since they are in your area and are familiar with your terrain and stations. I will withdraw that opinion of the 4228 - which might be overkill in this case.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funky2006* /forum/post/18740368
> 
> 
> ...Getting ABC is also a constant problem as it takes a lot of maneuvering. I would like to buy an antenna which I don't have to move it around as I switch from one channel to another.



Your ABC station is broadcasting in the VHF band, which is often more difficult to receive indoors because those lower frequencies have a harder time penetrating many building materials. Your best bet would be a small outdoor antenna, pointed roughly due South. This one should work well for your stations of interest and provide solid reception:
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1 


It's not big - about the same as this one:


----------



## partsman_ba

RS 15-1892 on eBay at $30 with shipping:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funky2006* /forum/post/18740368
> 
> 
> Thank you deltaguy for the suggestion and looking up the dealership in Garland. I had enough fun participating in the indoor reception sport last 3-4 years (moving the antenna around) and looking for a permanent solution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . SS-3000 can be the one but as you said, it is hard to know without trying. How do you compare the SS-3000 to the CM 4228HD?
> 
> Thanks!



If the SS-3000 can do the job for your uhf channels, but not ABC, a pair of rabbit ears and an a-b switch could be added to effect an indoor solution as well. Two antennas can be better than one indoors too. If you're going outside, that 751 looks like a nice small antenna to give a try.


----------



## Lkr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *partsman_ba* /forum/post/18741436
> 
> 
> RS 15-1892 on eBay at $30 with shipping:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123



UGH! I want this so badly, but I don't have $30. Will have to wait until I get some money and then I'll have to blow $50 on it at radio shack


----------



## funky2006

pvotlucka and deltaguy, Thank you for all your help. I really appreciate it. I will buy one of the two you recommended and report my findings. Thank You!


----------



## Grayson73

Is DB2 still the best indoor antenna? I'm currently using Petra SuperPower 32db, but can't keep a strong signal on channel 7 and 30.


Here is my TVFool info.


----------



## arxaw

You have several VHF stations. The DB2 is a UHF-only antenna and not a good choice.


----------



## flampher

I am looking for input on the highest gain uhf antenna I can get. I presently have a CM4228, 8 bay, with a BT CMA 75 pre amp. I have pondered the 91xg as others seem to be pleased with it I have also read that it is troublesome to maintain (wind and snow load) and my antennas "fly pretty high" The H 8800 seems to have great gain figures, according to the chart I am attaching the link to. I have a stable installation with a rotor as I am on the deep fringe of Albany NY, and Burlington VT. I require signals from ch 14 to ch 43. Thanks ! Maybe there is a more up to date version of this ?? http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## pvotlucka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flampher* /forum/post/18770904
> 
> 
> I am looking for input on the highest gain uhf antenna I can get. I presently have a CM4228, 8 bay, with a BT CMA 75 pre amp. I have pondered the 91xg as others seem to be pleased with it I have also read that it is troublesome to maintain (wind and snow load) and my antennas "fly pretty high" The H 8800 seems to have great gain figures, according to the chart I am attaching the link to. I have a stable installation with a rotor as I am on the deep fringe of Albany NY, and Burlington VT. I require signals from ch 14 to ch 43. Thanks ! Maybe there is a more up to date version of this ?? http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



The CM4228 is one of strongest for UHF. Here is another set of comparisons on graph as a reference.

The Channel Master CM3671 Deepest Fringe Crossfire or Wineguard HD8200U may offer slight improvement from what you currently have.


Building specific antennas tuned to specific channels would be the highest gain but it is a huge project compared to one big antenna.


I made specific antenna tuned to ch26 station 62 miles away. The weather affects the signal. It can go from no signal to 100%. There are limits on distance is the lesson here.


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flampher* /forum/post/18770904
> 
> 
> I am looking for input on the highest gain uhf antenna I can get. I presently have a CM4228, 8 bay, with a BT CMA 75 pre amp. I have pondered the 91xg as others seem to be pleased with it I have also read that it is troublesome to maintain (wind and snow load) and my antennas "fly pretty high" The H 8800 seems to have great gain figures, according to the chart I am attaching the link to. I have a stable installation with a rotor as I am on the deep fringe of Albany NY, and Burlington VT. I require signals from ch 14 to ch 43. Thanks ! Maybe there is a more up to date version of this ?? http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



Might want to try your question in this forum http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623 instead. Probably not going to find an indoor antenna solution.


----------



## flampher




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *partsman_ba* /forum/post/18775001
> 
> 
> Might want to try your question in this forum http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623 instead. Probably not going to find an indoor antenna solution.




Ha Ha, I did not notice the indoor title, Thanks


----------



## [email protected]

Hi guys. I'm in the western suburbs outside of Chicago, Aurora to be exact. Here's my results:

TVFool 


There are hi voltage power lines about a half mile east of me (in the direction of most of the channels). I'd really prefer an indoor antenna, if feasible. I've done a little research and would be ok spending ~$120 for a ClearStream2. Would that be a good indoor solution, and do you have any other suggestions? I'd like to get at least the first 15 stations or so, except the one that is at 223 degrees...the more the merrier though.


Also, my townhome is pre-wired with coax, which terminates in my pantry on the 1st floor. Indoors, my intent is to either put the antenna in one of the two rooms that face east, or in the pantry (if it will work in there). I would then connect it to the coax, sending the signal to a total of 4 rooms. Am I correct that I would need an amplifier to do this, and if yes, can I put something like a 4 channel amplifier in the pantry? In that case I may have the antenna in an upstairs room, wired into a coax run of under 50 feet, which terminates into the amplifier, which then sends the signal to the rest of the rooms.


----------



## arxaw

Clearstream2 is a *UHF* antenna. You have both UHF & VHF channels.


----------



## pvotlucka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *[email protected]* /forum/post/18786584
> 
> 
> Hi guys. I'm in the western suburbs outside of Chicago, Aurora to be exact. Here's my results:
> 
> TVFool
> 
> 
> There are hi voltage power lines about a half mile east of me (in the direction of most of the channels). I'd really prefer an indoor antenna, if feasible. I've done a little research and would be ok spending ~$120 for a ClearStream2. Would that be a good indoor solution, and do you have any other suggestions? I'd like to get at least the first 15 stations or so, except the one that is at 223



The majority of your stations that are closest to you are 77+75 degrees.


----------



## deltaguy

[email protected],


I would copy your post here, and create a new thread asking for OTA help. Posting it to the Chicago OTA thread would be a good idea as well.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18786790
> 
> 
> Clearstream2 is a *UHF* antenna. You have both UHF & VHF channels.



Yep. If you have to stay indoors and are willing to write off WBBM, then it's a fine antenna for Chicago stations. Otherwise, you'll need to go into the attic or outdoors with a larger high-VHF/UHF combo antenna just so you can add WBBM.


WPVN analog is probably going to require an antenna pointed at it. Be prepared to rotate your antenna.


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lkr* /forum/post/18744478
> 
> 
> UGH! I want this so badly, but I don't have $30. Will have to wait until I get some money and then I'll have to blow $50 on it at radio shack



Try eBay now. Somebody hit the mother lode of UFO's and has them ALL up for sale (8 so far) at the same time, all ending this weekend, for starting bids of $.98 + $14.99 S/H.


----------



## StuJac

Can I use a cable (Motorola) amplifier? I bought it to amp up the cable signal but it turned out to be a bit too powerful. It's a 3 way splitter/amplifier. I want to get a Radio Shack uhf/vhf indoor and use the Motorola amp/splitter to feed 2 tivo's and a tv.


Opinions, please?


----------



## db130

found an online vendorfor the Lava a-463:


meritline dot com, of all places....


the quantom fm ant-102 is still a better buy at $25 shipped on ebay IMHO


----------



## gti303

Edit: Posted in main forum


----------



## Greg_R

I got the Petra (Cornet 645a) and it's garbage. The power plug fits loosely in all my outlets and the coax connector is poor. I went from 1 station to 2 with this unit (many more "local" stations listed on TVFool). I replaced the power plug (thinking the loose power connection could have been the problem) and no improvements were seen. Not recommended!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1257382


----------



## ota.dt.man

If you have an indoor UHF antenna, you'll need to write Congress before October to prevent your UHF antenna from becoming less & less useful.


If the FCC, Congress & the White House have their way, there will be less & less FREE HDTV:
 White House looking for spectrum, including 120 MHz from TV 

 Letter's to Congress & Senator Bennet's Reply 

 The Spectrum Wars have officially Started
*We ALL need to write Congress BEFORE October*:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dkreichen1968* /forum/post/18868641
> 
> 
> The hope is in the NAB being able to raise opposition to reallocation in congress and the public at large. I don't know how they plan to do that, or when they plan on doing it. It would seem to me that they would need to get going on it before October 1st when Obama wants the plan in place.


* The Right to Write *

Some Suggestions on Writing Your Congressman

by Morris K. Udall, Member, U.S. Congress
 Write Your Representative 
 http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm 
 Senators of the 111th Congress


----------



## Jim1348

I may be in the market for an indoor antenna soon. This will be for a second story 20 miles from the antenna farm for mostly UHF AND two VHF channels. I might go with a CM-4040. Can I do better than that? (The two VHF channels are on RF channels 9 & 11.)


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim1348* /forum/post/19000656
> 
> 
> I may be in the market for an indoor antenna soon. This will be for a second story 20 miles from the antenna farm for mostly UHF AND two VHF channels. I might go with a CM-4040. Can I do better than that? (The two VHF channels are on RF channels 9 & 11.)



The anitference design is very good for UHF. It's not very good for VHF. In fact, it's terrible. The single classic bowtie, shown on page one here, can in fact receive VHF high. Who's gonna believe that? A UHF antenna for VHF?


EV hasn't been posting here lately. I hope he's too busy building antennas.


----------



## arxaw

Jim,

That antenna is UHF only. You need a VHF + UHF antenna. If you want a similar style antenna with dipole rods needed for VHF, try an (unamplified) HDTV*i* antenna, like the one below.


For your two VHF channels, the dipole rods should be extended only about half their full length, (*not* fully extended as shown in this picture):


----------



## TapND

Hi all -

I wasn't sure if I should post here or in the HTPC forum here along with the Chicago OTA thread. I am located on the NW side of Chicago ~4 miles away from broadcast towers. I am on the first floor of a condo building with windows facing north and east. I do not have line-of-sight to Sears/Hancock due to trees and several other 2-3 story buildings.

My issue:

My original setup was this:

Toshiba 32HL66 - picked up HD channels fairly well with amplified Radio Shack antenna.

Tivo Series 2 connected to Zenith DTV Converter box - picked up HD channels fairly well with amplified Radio Shack antenna (splitter with TV)


New setup

I recently constructed a new HTPC with the AverMedia AverTVHD Duet card installed so I can cancel Tivo and use WMC 7 as my DVR. I am having a really hard time picking up signals with this card.


Here is what I have tried so far:

Amplified Radio Shack antenna directly to Card - Almost no signals whatsoever


Basic Rabbit ears/loop (old Jensen model) with adjusting dial directly to Card - I can get stations ok, but they stutter/break up more often and several stations require me to adjust the antenna/dial


I have also tried using a signal amplifer (Radio Shack #15-2505) on both antennas and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference.


Does anyone have any thoughts/recommendations (i.e. is the card not the best for this type of signal? should I get a directional antenna? etc.)? I don't want to have to get up every time I change the channel and I don't want to worry about the DVR not recording especially since it seemed to work before with the DTV converter box. BTW - I don't think I can get a roof antenna mounted/connected.

Thanks!


----------



## arxaw

How close is the antenna to the computer?


----------



## pvotlucka

I found a Diamond/ATI on sale very cheap. Two TVs picking up most of the local stations then added this PC tuner. It was a devil to get the software to run and it picked up 5 out of 90 channels. That went back to the store for swift refund.


I did a little more research and got a Hauppauge pc tuner. It got all the stations without a problem. This company offers a lot of models. The reception should be the same on all of them but the low end models (about $50) do not have a built in encoder. The encoder takes the stress off the PC processor during recording.


----------



## TapND




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19030262
> 
> 
> How close is the antenna to the computer?



The antenna was about 2-3-ft from the computer. My HTPC was in my TV stand and the antenna was behind the TV.


I think I may have found one issue in that I had my indoor antenna behind my TV sitting on the center channel speaker. When I move the antenna away from the TV and stand by about 2-ft, all of a sudden the reception turns out much better (still some blockiness on a couple of channels). I might have to play around with the location of the antenna...although I think my wife liked it better behind the tv. If I find out a rock-solid fix, I'll let you know in case others have the issue. In one of the other threads, another Chicago-area poster listed an antenna ( http://www.target.com/Terrestrial-Di.../dp/B000EHUE7I ) that I might try too


----------



## pvotlucka

Here is one more tuner option that has great reception:

Record digital TV and HDTV with the CM-7000PAL DVR by Channel Master.


----------



## oc-rdx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pvotlucka* /forum/post/19040030
> 
> 
> Here is one more tuner option that has great reception:
> 
> Record digital TV and HDTV with the CM-7000PAL DVR by Channel Master.



I bought one of these a couple of weeks ago under the Dish name, from Kmart.com. I'm enjoying it so far.


Read the 1st page here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099071


----------



## NeedWheels

Wow they are making the cm-7000 with a PVR now?


I should sell the one I never opened on ebay and get the PVR.


Is it the same quality tuner with svideo output as the standalone tuner?


The remote also looks like a JP1 capable remote?


----------



## pvotlucka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NeedWheels* /forum/post/19042711
> 
> 
> Wow they are making the cm-7000 with a PVR now?
> 
> 
> I should sell the one I never opened on ebay and get the PVR.
> 
> 
> Is it the same quality tuner with svideo output as the standalone tuner?
> 
> 
> The remote also looks like a JP1 capable remote?



There is a forum for this product AKA DTVPal that might answer these questions and provide additional information. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...99071&page=340


----------



## tylerSC

The original CM-7000 and Dish DTVPal were digitlal to analog converter boxes designed for the DTV transition and were eligble for the govt sponsored coupon program. Both I believe used the same highly sensitive tuner and were very good at locking in weak long distance signals where others failed. However, they both only output a standard definition digital picture. The new CM-7000 DVR is a high definition dual tuner box and I also believe it uses the same sensitive tuner as the converter box versions, and is also the same as the DTVPal DVR branded by Dish network. Looking to purchase a version if can locate a good price; Fry's in Ga has them in store but not yet on sale.


----------



## MasterNES

Hello, my roommates and I live in a condo and are looking for a suitable indoor antenna. Here's our TV Fool results:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe4209f5bef1 


We have a window that faces directly south. Using a thin speaker wire as a simple antenna, we get good reception on CBS, NBC, ION, My19, and CW. We also get Fox, though it's not as strong. We'd love to get ABC, but it looks challenging. Can anyone suggest a good antenna for our situation?


Also, I'm a bit confused. The first page makes the RS-1880 sound like an exceptional antenna. It then says that the ANT-102 performs on par with the RS-1880, which should make it exceptional as well--the review even claims it is one of the few "elite" antennas. But then searching this antenna on Amazon reveals that it is rather unpopular (only one review...a 1/5!), and I don't understand why people wouldn't be suggesting this antenna more if it were good. Can someone explain?


----------



## arxaw

Welcome.


For your ABC affiliate, it looks like you would require an outdoor antenna. There are multiple hills in the way (2-edge) and it's a VHF channel, usually two strikes against reliable indoor reception.


For the other channels of interest, this specific model rabbit ear/loop antenna from RS (model 15-1874) should work well. Avoid lookalike antennas and try to get this specific model. Extend the dipole rods all the way out, in a wide "V" shape. Near an East-facing window should work best. If you need to extend the length of the coax (to get the antenna away from interfering electronics/computers/routers, etc.), add an extra length of coax and connect it with a barrel splice .


Avoid amplified indoor antennas. They usually only amplify noise and may overload from your stronger stations.


----------



## MasterNES

Thanks for the reply. Given the big list of performance rankings on the first page, this model is beaten out by a number of others--what made you suggest this specific one? Also, why are most of the antennas at the top (like the RS UFO) amplified antennas if they don't work well indoors? Do you and the OP simply have different philosophies?


Thanks again.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MasterNES* /forum/post/19066615
> 
> 
> --what made you suggest this specific one?...



My and other people in this forum's firsthand experience with it, and your TVFool results. And the fact that the channels in green on your TVFool results (assuming it is accurate) are likely the only ones you'll reliably receive with an indoor antenna.

*YMMV*, of course.


----------



## faz

I just posted this in the RPTV thread but it probably belongs here.


I have an older Samsung 6163HLP and I just got a Terk HDTV powered antenna, plugged it into the Ant1 coax input, scanned for channels but didn't find anything. I think it's safe to say that the TV may not have a digital tuner. So I'm going to have to buy an external one to receive OTA HD channels, correct? If so, *is there a particular one that is recommended that is CHEAP?* I don't want to invest too much money into this TV but I want to cancel my Verizon Fios subscription, get OTA HD (live about 30 miles from Washington DC) for local and general TV use (having the TV on in the background..) and then use Boxee for much of my "cable" TV needs.


Is the Terk HDTVa a good model? Based on the 1st page of this thread, I should consider a bunch of other antennas before the Terk. *But based on my TV Fool results, can someone recommend the best one?* I'm sorry, I'm not too technical when it comes to this stuff and I know I should get an antenna that does well in the "green" range, but is one better than another? Thanks!!

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe7971eb2a79


----------



## arxaw

A quick google shows that your model TV is a _monitor_. No HD tuner, so you need an HD Set Top Box. See the STB Synopsis thread for suggestions. Probably a ZAT502 or clone thereof would be good.


Indoor _amplified_ antennas are usually a bad idea, because they often just amplify noise or overload on strong signals. However, since you already have one, try it when you get a tuner. Aim it about 120° E/SE (slightly to the right of due East). Put the dipole rods in a V and extend them about 14" or so. No longer. If reception is unreliable, put the antenna near an East facing window, as far away from other electronics & wireless crap (routers, phones, etc.) as possible. If you need to extend the coax, connect a longer piece, using a barrel splice.


If reception is still not good, try this basic passive antenna - RS model#15-1874 . This specific model often works quite well, *for people with similar TVFool results as yours*.


----------



## Rammitinski

I'm not 100% positive, but I think you can remove or bypass the amp from that antenna if need be.


----------



## arxaw

If the amp is a hindrance, completely bypassing it (if possible) should be a good alternative to buying another antenna.


----------



## faz

Thanks for the quick replies. Yes, the Terk has a bypass for the amp (an on/off button) or I guess you can just unplug it. I'm surprised that a $12 antenna would be better than a $40+ one, but I will go to my local radio shack and see which works better. Thanks!


----------



## Rammitinski

My guess is that the UHF element on the Terk will work much better than a simple loop, being more directional.


VHF I don't know, though.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *faz* /forum/post/19077545
> 
> 
> Thanks for the quick replies. Yes, the Terk has a bypass for the amp (an on/off button) or I guess you can just unplug it. I'm surprised that a $12 antenna would be better than a $40+ one, but I will go to my local radio shack and see which works better. Thanks!



Actually, the best indoor antenna I've found is the DB2, and you can buy the Eagle Aspen DB2 Clone for...$12 at Summit Source. A buddy of mine has one hanging in his 2nd-floor window and he gets stations from 60 miles in front and 30 miles behind. Before I gave it to him, I tried it in my house and it was almost as good as a 4-bay. Combine the DB2 with a good preamp and it's a mouse that roars.


----------



## faz

Another quick thought.. the ZAT502 HD is about $100. It looks like I can buy a used Tivo HD for about $70 on eBay. Since the Tivo HD can display OTA HD, would that be a viable option instead of the ZAT502? Is there any video quality difference? Is there any disadvantage with going with a Tivo HD + Terk (or budget Radio Shak antenna)?


----------



## audiodane

Here's my TVFool info:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe701af93ba4 


Specifically, all the local broadcast channels (nbc, cbs, abc, ..) are located pretty much on the same mountain, about 12 miles EAST from the house. However the CW (I'm a Smallville fan...







) is located WEST in almost the opposite direction and is 30 miles away. To make matters worse we're in a valley between two decent sized hills, cutting down on signal strength from BOTH directions.










If I've been reading these forums correctly, the big broadcast stations to the EAST (except maybe PBS) are all strong enough in our area to not really have to worry too much about how to pick them up. It's the CW that I'd like to try and get _as well_ however. I am not against attic placement (2story) if I have to.


Would a _highly direction antenna_ be best here pointed towards the CW tower (@ 311deg), and would such a highly directional antenna still pick up all the other broadcast stations coming from the other direction (all within 83-93 deg)? Or am I just out of luck?


Oh a whim I picked up a bowtie antenna from radio shack today. If I understand correctly, all the 83-93deg broadcasters look strong enough to pick up with a generic antenna... It'll do for now until I can figure out the best choice for all of them plus CW...


I see the Winegard PR-8800 8-Bay is available from Summit around $45 plus shipping.. not sure how directional that is and if its the best choice for me though


















Thanks so much!!









..dane


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *faz* /forum/post/19077545
> 
> 
> Thanks for the quick replies. Yes, the Terk has a bypass for the amp (an on/off button) or I guess you can just unplug it...



If it has a switch, turn it off & unplug the amp to see if reception changes.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/19077712
> 
> 
> My guess is that the UHF element on the Terk will work much better than a simple loop, being more directional.
> 
> 
> VHF I don't know, though.



I don't either. I know I bought an HDTVi (non-amp'd) and it didn't work nearly as well as the RS budget antenna. It's possible that mine was defective. At any rate, I have never had any luck with Terk antennas, although some on the forum have.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19077754
> 
> 
> Actually, the best indoor antenna I've found is the DB2...



faz has both VHF & UHF stations, but the DB2 is UHF-only. It will work _if_ signals VHF signals are really strong, but a simple set of dipoles usually works better for VHF chs.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiodane* /forum/post/19077973
> 
> 
> Here's my TVFool info:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe701af93ba4
> 
> 
> ... I see the Winegard PR-8800 8-Bay is available from Summit around $45 plus shipping...



The ChannelMaster 4228 would probably work better than the winegard. There are tons of them in use in the Huntsville/Florence area. You can order it from walmart.com for $78 shipped to store or shipped to your house for 97¢. If it doesn't work, you can return it to the nearest walmart for a refund.


Start by aiming it roughly due West, then _slowly_ rotate it to the right (NW) until you get a good lock on WHDF 14 (cw) in Florence. The HSV stations should still come in off the back side of the 4228. If WHDF is weak, you may need to add a low noise preamp on the mast. This one is very good and is used by many AVSForum members.


Your antenna really would work better outdoors, instead of in the attic.


----------



## pvotlucka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *faz* /forum/post/19077838
> 
> 
> Another quick thought.. the ZAT502 HD is about $100. It looks like I can buy a used Tivo HD for about $70 on eBay. Since the Tivo HD can display OTA HD, would that be a viable option instead of the ZAT502? Is there any video quality difference? Is there any disadvantage with going with a Tivo HD + Terk (or budget Radio Shak antenna)?



Unless something new has happened Tivo requires monthly fee in order for it to work. They make you connect it to telephone line or dsl connection to enable the machine to work.


That tuner recommendation is the cheapest out there.


----------



## arxaw

The reason standalone HD OTA tuners aren't super cheap is because the demand for them is quite small.


----------



## pvotlucka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *faz* /forum/post/19077838
> 
> 
> Another quick thought.. the ZAT502 HD is about $100. It looks like I can buy a used Tivo HD for about $70 on eBay. Since the Tivo HD can display OTA HD, would that be a viable option instead of the ZAT502? Is there any video quality difference? Is there any disadvantage with going with a Tivo HD + Terk (or budget Radio Shak antenna)?



I had a friend who had the same problem with a beautiful huge Sony Monitor. The reception was poor in her area so the tuner needed to be sensitive. We ended up using the Channel Master converter box ($50) which has a S-Video output which is not HDTV but looked fine. She was also satisfied with the price.


Another consideration could be to look for a newer HDTV. At Sony outlet store in Camarillo I saw a 32 inch for around $250 which included a free DVD player. If you good bargain hunter you might find one cheaper at clearance sale.


----------



## audiodane




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19078663
> 
> 
> The ChannelMaster 4228 would probably work better than the winegard. There are tons of them in use in the Huntsville/Florence area. You can order it from walmart.com for $78 shipped to store or shipped to your house for 97¢. If it doesn't work, you can return it to the nearest walmart for a refund.
> 
> 
> Start by aiming it roughly due West, then _slowly_ rotate it to the right (NW) until you get a good lock on WHDF 14 (cw) in Florence. The HSV stations should still come in off the back side of the 4228. If WHDF is weak, you may need to add a low noise preamp on the mast. This one is very good and is used by many AVSForum members.
> 
> 
> Your antenna really would work better outdoors, instead of in the attic.



Thanks for that suggestion, I'll look into it-- why do you propose it would work better-- is it more directional than the other?


I assume especially outdoor I need to put some sort of lightning redirection on the signal.. I also assume there is tons of information out there on the matter but what do I search for to get decent instructions?


thanks,

..dane


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiodane* /forum/post/19084570
> 
> 
> Thanks for that suggestion, I'll look into it-- why do you propose it would work better-- is it more directional than the other?



The main reason; there are quite a few 4228 antennas in the Florence/HSV area. If they didn't work well, there wouldn't be any around.


.



> Quote:
> I assume especially outdoor I need to put some sort of lightning redirection on the signal...











For more info, google *NEC antenna grounding*.


----------



## jhaferman

Hello,


I continue to have problems with VHF reception approximately 30 miles south of the broadcast towers in the Minneapolis/St Paul market.


Here is my current setup: Radio Shack VU-120XR VHF/UHF/FM Antenna in attic with Winegard AP-8700 VHF/UHF Preamplifier (previously had AP-4700 UHF Amplifier).


Here is my TV Fool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbeeeebf4c6d7 .


Mounting the antenna on the roof is NOT an option although I understand it would probably help.


I receive all "yellow" and "red" UHF transmissions all of the time without any problem.


I have tried orientating the antenna between 0 - 30 degrees at various times. Currently the antenna is at about 30 degrees. It is very difficult to get different orientations in my attic given the rafter layout and anntena length. Also, I am not willing to lose 41.1 (346 degrees) by going beyond 30 degrees.


I have an 21" x 28.5" (35" diagonal) access opening into my attic. I am seriously considering starting from scratch and would appreciate advice on a new setup. Thank you.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

jhaferman,


Your TVfool suggests you are on the north shore of Fish Lake on Fairlawn. There's a pretty good sized hill just a bit east of north from you that you're behind.


Since FM frequencies bend a bit better than high-VHF, I'd suggest suppressing FM prior to the pre-amp as a first step. Use either an FM trap/filter or an HLSJ with the "L" port capped with a 75 ohm terminator. See if that helps.


Your antenna is probably suitable so the problem is likely interference from some source. FM is about as likely as anything else. You can try to narrow things down by unplugging or turning off any computers, fluorescent lights (including CFLs), and the like to see if that makes a difference.


----------



## jhaferman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/19085741
> 
> 
> Since FM frequencies bend a bit better than high-VHF, I'd suggest suppressing FM prior to the pre-amp as a first step. Use either an FM trap/filter or an HLSJ with the "L" port capped with a 75 ohm terminator. See if that helps.



First, thank you for the reply and advice.


Please see below for some information from my pre-amp instructions. It appears my pre-amp has an FM trap built-in. I will have to verify that it is in the "FIXED TRAP IN" position, but I do not remember changing it at installation. Is this sufficient or are you suggesting doing something more than this?


FM TRAP OPERATION (Not applicable to Models AP-4700, AP-4800, or HDP-269)

The preamplifier features two FM traps, one fixed and the other variable. The preamplifier is shipped with the fixed FM in the FIXED TRAP IN position and the variable FM trap tuned out of the FM band (about 108 MHz). See Figure 5.


If FM reception is desired, move the FM trap switch to the FIXED TRAP OUT position.


FM interference is indicated by herringbone patterns appearing on any VHF channel (2 through 13). If this interference is present, verify the FM trap is in the FIXED TRAP IN position. If interference is still present, turn the VARIABLE FM TRAP screw very slowly while observing the TV channel with the greatest interference until the picture clears. See Figure 5.


The variable FM trap can also be used with the fixed FM trap in the FIXED TRAP OUT position. This allows you to receive FM and tune out a specific FM station that is causing interference. This is performed the same as the proceeding paragraph except the FM trap is in the out position.


----------



## arxaw

An FM trap or HLSJ before the preamp is a good suggestion (what's your FMFool look like for nearby FM stations?).


What is your roofing made of? Is there a radiant foil barrier on the underside of the roof decking or in the gable ends of the attic? Is the antenna pointing through the roof or a gable end? If toward a gable end, what is your exterior wall made of? Certain building materials can kill reliable indoor or attic VHF reception.


Temporarily turning off *everything* electrical in the house except than the preamp and TV can help you track down locally generated impulse noise interference that is can be the bane of good VHF reception. If reception improves, slowly turn on stuff until you find the source of interference.


I hate VHF digital TV.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jhaferman* /forum/post/19086305
> 
> 
> ...FM interference is indicated by herringbone patterns appearing on any VHF channel (2 through 13). I



The instructions are obsolete. "Herringbone" patterns from FM interference only display on analog TV channels. On digital TV, FM interference causes dropouts, intermittent or no reception.


----------



## jhaferman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19086541
> 
> 
> The instructions are obsolete. "Herringbone" patterns from FM interference only display on analog TV channels. On digital TV, FM interference causes dropouts, intermittent or no reception.



Understood. Thanks.


Is the FM Trap on the Winegard AP-8700 VHF/UHF Preamplifier sufficient, or do I need to do something else?


----------



## jhaferman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19086316
> 
> 
> What is your roofing made of? Is there a radiant foil barrier on the underside of the roof decking or in the gable ends of the attic? Is the antenna pointing through the roof or a gable end? If toward a gable end, what is your exterior wall made of? Certain building materials can kill reliable indoor or attic VHF reception.



Asphalt shingles on top of OSB. I do not think there is a radiant foil barrier. I will send a picture of the antenna in the attic later this week when it is expected to cool down somewhat (too hot up there now). Exterior walls are HardiePlank (fiber cement) on top of Bildrite sheathing.


By the way, last night NBC at 80% and FOX at 40% - both viewable. Same thing this morning (Monday). Saturday night had very similar weather to Sunday night and NBC was not viewable (must have been under 40%).


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jhaferman* /forum/post/19088236
> 
> 
> Asphalt shingles on top of OSB. I do not think there is a radiant foil barrier...



If a RB was installed, the underside of the roof decking would look like aluminum foil.


.



> Quote:
> Exterior walls are HardiePlank (fiber cement) on top of Bildrite sheathing...


*Is the antenna pointing through the roof toward or a gable end?*


----------



## audiodane




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19084745
> 
> 
> The main reason; there are quite a few 4228 antennas in the Florence/HSV area. If they didn't work well, there wouldn't be any around.



...unless people put them up based on recommendations even though other solutions may be more effective and/or less expensive...











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19084745
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For more info, google *NEC antenna grounding*.



What about in-attic solutions-- do they require grounding stuff too? I understand in-attic has losses, but less weather issues and would be simpler I think for me if it didn't require all the grounding stuff..


thanks,

..dane


----------



## arxaw

Ask in the HSV thread where you are also x-posting.


----------



## pvotlucka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19078663
> 
> 
> The ChannelMaster 4228 would probably work better than the winegard. There are tons of them in use in the Huntsville/Florence area. You can order it from walmart.com for $78 shipped to store or shipped to your house for 97¢. If it doesn't work, you can return it to the nearest walmart for a refund.
> 
> 
> Start by aiming it roughly due West, then _slowly_ rotate it to the right (NW) until you get a good lock on WHDF 14 (cw) in Florence. The HSV stations should still come in off the back side of the 4228. If WHDF is weak, you may need to add a low noise preamp on the mast. This one is very good and is used by many AVSForum members.
> 
> 
> Your antenna really would work better outdoors, instead of in the attic.



I wanted to compliment you on this recommendation. It introduced me to the idea that one can aim the antenna at the weak signal while at the same time pull in the strong signals from the back. No need to have two antennas and dealing with joining or switches. Well done!


----------



## arxaw

pvotlucka,

You're welcome.


----------



## audiodane




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19090713
> 
> 
> Ask in the HSV thread where you are also x-posting.



Sorry-- I receive different information from each thread and feel the x-post is justified. Here I am getting lots of answers from folks all around- in the other thread I am getting answers from people in the area.. Other folks may move between threads over time, I get it all knocked out at the same time. Don't see any harm in that.










using a standard rat-shack single-bowtie tonight in the attic I'm doing pretty well with the abc/cbs/nbc/pbs stations. Still no go on the weak one (CW) ... but will work on it.


cheers,

..dane


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiodane* /forum/post/19092488
> 
> 
> Sorry-- I receive different information from each thread and feel the x-post is justified. Here I am getting lots of answers from folks all around- in the other thread I am getting answers from people in the area.. Other folks may move between threads over time, I get it all knocked out at the same time. Don't see any harm in that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> using a standard rat-shack single-bowtie tonight in the attic I'm doing pretty well with the abc/cbs/nbc/pbs stations. Still no go on the weak one (CW) ... but will work on it.
> 
> 
> cheers,
> 
> ..dane



I'm not surprised you're getting PBS with the classic bowtie. However, the CW is too weak for it. I get very little A/V lock with that bowtie on a local here with a noise margin of 22db. That's stronger than what you are trying to catch. You'll need something else for the CW.


----------



## audiodane




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/19092558
> 
> 
> I'm not surprised you're getting PBS with the classic bowtie. However, the CW is too weak for it. I get very little A/V lock with that bowtie on a local here with a noise margin of 22db. That's stronger than what you are trying to catch. You'll need something else for the CW.



yea, I'm sitting on the tivo antenna strength indicator right now and its jumping between 0 and 30.. Not once am I ever getting an image even for a moment..


I'm wondering if the DIY 4-bay without a reflector would improve things substantially or not. May have to put a reflector on, not sure. Don't want to chop off the signals coming from _almost_ the opposite direction.


I have enough spare parts laying around the garage to do the 4-bay DIY antenna without the reflector (would have to go buy some wire for the reflector) -- I think it may be worth some experimenting before I go spend money on one..


thanks,

..dane


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiodane* /forum/post/19092583
> 
> 
> yea, I'm sitting on the tivo antenna strength indicator right now and its jumping between 0 and 30.. Not once am I ever getting an image even for a moment..
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if the DIY 4-bay without a reflector would improve things substantially or not. May have to put a reflector on, not sure. Don't want to chop off the signals coming from _almost_ the opposite direction.
> 
> 
> I have enough spare parts laying around the garage to do the 4-bay DIY antenna without the reflector (would have to go buy some wire for the reflector) -- I think it may be worth some experimenting before I go spend money on one..
> 
> 
> thanks,
> 
> ..dane



I don't know if the DIY 4-bay will work. But, as a fan of the classic bowtie, I'll pull out all of the tricks available to you. Moving the bowtie up, down, left, right, forward, or back by around 2 feet can make a big difference for UHF signals . In addition, pointing the bowtie upwards or downwards can also help. Even having a bowtie looking directly upward is a potential reception solution. These tricks most likely won't help you for the CW, but they might be useful for some of your other stations.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/19092722
> 
> 
> ... Moving the bowtie up, down, left, right, forward, or back by around 2 feet can make a big difference for UHF signals...



So true.


Location, location, *location*.


----------



## audiodane

Very interesting.. I was under the impression that the 4bay would have much higher directional gain when pointed NW (towards the CW)...


I will also fiddle with some additional locations this week..


thanks!

..dane


----------



## jhaferman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/19085741
> 
> 
> Your TVfool suggests you are on the north shore of Fish Lake on Fairlawn. There's a pretty good sized hill just a bit east of north from you that you're behind.



See attached image. My house number is 3155. My antenna is at 30 degrees. It is in the attic near the center of the house, but more towards the lake side. I think you are right, the hill is part of the problem, but my neighbor's house is probably more of a problem. Their house is considerably taller than mine (both homes are two stories, but they have 10 foot ceilings on both levels plus a very steep roof pitch) and is probably blocking the signal. I am not sure why I did not think of this before!


Maybe I would be better off with separate UHF and VHF antennas? I could put a new UHF antenna in place of my existing UHF/VHF antenna (my UHF reception is not a problem) and put a separate new VHF antenna as far north in the attic as possible (hopefully this would eliminate my neighbor's house from blocking the signal). What do you think? Specific advice on models of antennas, pre-amps, etc would be appreciated. Thanks.


I will try to post a picture of my current setup and attic space later tonight or tomorrow - unfortunately workable space is a big problem.


----------



## arxaw

You didn't mention it, but if you're aiming at a gable end of the house, the VHF is probably having trouble penetrating the hardiplank.


----------



## jhaferman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19088414
> 
> *Is the antenna pointing through the roof toward or a gable end?*



See attached picture of the antenna in my attic. It is pointing primarily through the asphalt roof, so hopefully the HardiePlank is not too much of an issue.


Unfortunately, space is really tight with this big of an antenna, especially given the layout of the rafters - it makes any change in direction and/or elevation of the antenna extremely difficult.


Also attached is a picture from the peak of my roof looking probably 45 degrees. It is not a pretty picture! Of course, my antenna is a good 8 feet below this point. It is hard for me to say how much of an obstacle this is given the 30 degree orientation of my antenna. I can only imagine that it is not helping.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jhaferman* /forum/post/19096308
> 
> 
> ...my antenna is a good 8 feet below this point. It is hard for me to say how much of an obstacle this is given the 30 degree orientation of my antenna....



How much of an obstacle depends on what your neighbor's house is constructed of. Stucco & radiant barriers directly in front of an antenna can be signal killers, particularly V H F.


----------



## jhaferman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19097038
> 
> 
> How much of an obstacle depends on what your neighbor's house is constructed of. Stucco & radiant barriers directly in front of an antenna can be signal killers, particularly V H F.



Unfortunately, their exterior is stucco. I am not sure if they have radiant barriers.


I wrestled with my antenna in the attic yesterday morning. I was able to get it mounted 2 - 3' higher than it was before. So far so good. Now I am getting VHF 9 over 60% and VHF 11 over 80%. Unfortunately some of my UHF signals are coming in weaker, but they are all still over 60%.


If this change sticks and I never have to go in my attic again, then I will be very happy!


Thank you for all of your advice. I think the take home for me is 1) higher is better, 2) small changes can make a big difference, and 3) it is not an exact science when there are so many variables in play.


----------



## jhaferman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jhaferman* /forum/post/19110558
> 
> 
> I wrestled with my antenna in the attic yesterday morning. I was able to get it mounted 2 - 3' higher than it was before. So far so good. Now I am getting VHF 9 over 60% and VHF 11 over 80%. Unfortunately some of my UHF signals are coming in weaker, but they are all still over 60%.



Well..... now I am getting poor reception of 5 (35) and 41 (40). It seems to have coincided with the high winds we have had in the Twin Cities the past several days. I still get the channels, but the signal strength is all over the place and the audio/video frequently drops out. However, I get 45 (45) at 100%, so I am not sure what is going on (5 and 45 are broadcast from the same tower).


Suffice it to say, I am still disappointed and frustrated with my reception. I am strongly considering getting separate VHF and UHF Antennas as my UHF problems appeared only after adjusting the antenna to get VHF 9 and 11.


Here is my question: Can I use my exisiting Radio Shack VU-120XR VHF/UHF/FM Antenna for my VHF signal and use a new Winegard HD-9032 for my UHF signal? I would still need a pre-amp, so can I use a UVSJ with my existing Winegard AP-8700 VHF/UHF Preamplifier (combined input) or do I need to replace it with a Channel Master CM7777 (separate inputs)? Do I need anything else to make this work?


If this will not work and if I need to replace the Radio Shack antenna entirely, then I am thinking of a Winegard YA1713 and HD-9032 with a Channel Master CM7777 (unless I can use a UVSJ with my Winegard AP-8700 VHF/UHF). Any comments on this setup?


----------



## arxaw

Are you going to install this outside ?


----------



## jhaferman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19123801
> 
> 
> Are you going to install this outside ?



No, I would still be doing an attic installation.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jhaferman* /forum/post/19123336
> 
> 
> ... I am thinking of a Winegard YA1713 and HD-9032 with a Channel Master CM7777 (unless I can use a UVSJ with my Winegard AP-8700 VHF/UHF). Any comments on this setup?



If trying a two-antenna setup, I would get a YA 1713 and an AntennasDirect 91XG, running to a CM7777 preamp (configured for "separate" inputs). The antennas should be at least 4 feet apart. However, a different antenna setup may not your multipath problems. It may require getting it out of the attic.


When there are two stations on the same tower, one may be much more stable than the other. This is because the paths multipath (bounced) signals take and the time they take to arrive at the antenna can vary with the broadcast frequency. The way your antenna and specific TV tuner deal with multipath can vary with broadcast frequency. Also, the frequencies of nearby interference sources may be harder on one channel than others.


----------



## bgavin

Stucco is applied over a wire mesh base.

I assume this mesh poses a hug interference for RF reception.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bgavin* /forum/post/19179647
> 
> 
> Stucco is applied over a wire mesh base.
> 
> I assume this mesh poses a hug interference for RF reception.



Yes. It certainly does.


----------



## Bronco07

Can anyone tell me if Radio Shack still sells the RS 1892 UFO antenna. I really liked the idea of the RF remote as my antenna is up in my bedroom and I have to run upstairs to adjust for certain channels but I can't find it on their site.


If anyone has any other good suggestions for a indoor antenna please feel free to post.


Thanks.


----------



## Rammitinski

I don't see it on their site anymore, either, but I think I've still seen it in stock in some of their stores. I would check those, if you have any around (ask the salespeople about in the back room, too).


----------



## partsman_ba

There's a company on eBay that has been selling a bunch of UFOs for the last couple of months. Starting bid of .98 + 14.99 S/H. I ended up paying $20 all told, but I see that several people paid the minimum, and two went without selling at all this week. Set up a search with email notification of new listings to let you know when one comes up again.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jhaferman* /forum/post/19123336
> 
> 
> Well..... now I am getting poor reception of 5 (35) and 41 (40). It seems to have coincided with the high winds we have had in the Twin Cities the past several days. I still get the channels, but the signal strength is all over the place and the audio/video frequently drops out. However, I get 45 (45) at 100%, so I am not sure what is going on (5 and 45 are broadcast from the same tower).
> 
> 
> Suffice it to say, I am still disappointed and frustrated with my reception. I am strongly considering getting separate VHF and UHF Antennas as my UHF problems appeared only after adjusting the antenna to get VHF 9 and 11.
> 
> 
> Here is my question: Can I use my exisiting Radio Shack VU-120XR VHF/UHF/FM Antenna for my VHF signal and use a new Winegard HD-9032 for my UHF signal? I would still need a pre-amp, so can I use a UVSJ with my existing Winegard AP-8700 VHF/UHF Preamplifier (combined input) or do I need to replace it with a Channel Master CM7777 (separate inputs)? Do I need anything else to make this work?
> 
> 
> If this will not work and if I need to replace the Radio Shack antenna entirely, then I am thinking of a Winegard YA1713 and HD-9032 with a Channel Master CM7777 (unless I can use a UVSJ with my Winegard AP-8700 VHF/UHF). Any comments on this setup?



Since you already HAVE the VU-120XR installed and if it's doing the job for VHF,

there is NO NEED to replace it. Simply join it with a new UHF antenna using UVSJ

prior to going through the W-G AP8700 Preamp.


HOWEVER, with so many nearby, strong FM stations, you should check to see if

the VU-120XR works better WITHOUT the Preamp for VHF channels. FM stations

can degrade Hi-VHF reception due to second-order harmonic distortion in the Preamp.

If it works better WITHOUT the Preamp, you should use a VHF/UHF Diplexer on

the OUTPUT of the Preamp, joining the unamplified VHF antenna with the Preamp'd

UHF antenna.


Holland & Pico Macom UVSJ Diplexers are NOT suitable for this purpose, since they

only have DC PASS on the VHF port (stuuupppidddd). You would need R-S 15-2586

"VHF/UHF Gold-Plated Splitter-Combiner", which does have DC PASS on the UHF port.

[Loss thru 15-2586 has been measured at less than 0.25 dB (VHF) and 0.75 (UHF).]


The so-called "FM Trap" in either the W-G or C-M Preamps is an inexpensive,

narrow-band notch filter tuned for the bottom of the FM Band, intended to provide

"some" protection for Ch6 and is NOT very effective against mid and high FM

frequencies. Such as TinLee's "Sharp (HQ) Notch: FM Trap: CR7-HQ 88.3 (25)":
http://www.tinlee.com/Graph_ALL_FM_filters.php 


If you find you need additional suppression of FM signals, consider a FULL-BAND

FM BANDSTOP filter, such as:
http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/CR7%20FM%2040.pdf 


Yes, the YA-1713 has higher Gain than VU-120XR in Hi-VHF band....if Gain curves

at HDTVPrimer are to be believed....AND it has 3-5 dB LESS Gain in the FM Band,

which is also a Good Thing.... So if you can't get the VU-120XR to work, upgrade.


----------



## funkmasterta

I realize that this thread was created a long time ago, but is there an updated one with reviews of OUTDOOR antennas?


Also, what antennas would you guys recommend for these two homes?


Mom's House: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a36222b6f478d4 


My House: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a362a2231b0494


----------



## arxaw

If I had either of those TVFool reports, I would buy this outdoor antenna:
http://www.summitsource.com/pro-bran...hf-p-9078.html 


For your mom, aim it roughly west. For yours, aim it roughly northwest.


Easiest way to mount it is on a satellite dish "J-mount" available at local radio shacks, many satellite TV dealers or online .


----------



## funkmasterta




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19250414
> 
> 
> If I had either of those TVFool reports, I would buy this outdoor antenna:
> http://www.summitsource.com/pro-bran...hf-p-9078.html
> 
> 
> For your mom, aim it roughly west. For yours, aim it roughly northwest.
> 
> 
> Easiest way to mount it is on a satellite dish "J-mount" available at local radio shacks, many satellite TV dealers or online .




Hey, thanks arxaw! Really, that small 2-bay would do it? Would a 4 or 8 bay be better (higher signal) or just overkill? Yea, we have existing satellite dish j-mounts on our roofs already. I'll probably just take the dishes down or mount them concurrently somehow if possible.


----------



## arxaw

Yes, if your TVFool is correct. You have a lot of signal and Line Of Sight (LOS) to the towers.


----------



## funkmasterta




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19253067
> 
> 
> Yes, if your TVFool is correct. You have a lot of signal and Line Of Sight (LOS) to the towers.



Thanks!










I think I'll pick up a 4 bay though since it's still a good price (and to be on the safe side!







)


----------



## funkmasterta

Hmm, just did some surfing around and found this:

Kosmic SuperQuad 


Scroll down a bit to:



> Quote:
> Why is the Kosmic SuperQuad Tune-a-Tenna better than commercially available 8 bays?
> 
> 
> Let us count the ways!
> 
> 
> Seriously, lets talk about how this antenna is superior to the 8 bays and other differences. It seems too good to be true....but it is true!
> 
> 
> The 8 bays all have shorter length whiskers or elements which are designed for gain over a larger UHF frequency spectrum, ch. 14-69. They still sell them this way because Mexico and Canada continue to have television broadcasts on channels 51-69, so they want to cover the North American market. The longer elements on the Kosmic SuperQuad Tune-A-Tenna maximize gain on the smaller ch. 14-51 television band used in the United States, post digital transition. This results in superior gain and SWR numbers on UHF ch. 14-51....as well as superior performance on the lower UHF channels, especially.
> 
> 
> Also the longer elements are superior for VHF High performance. While the 8 bays have more elements they arent as good at those frequencies.
> 
> 
> Furthermore the 8 bays with multi-piece screens are not as good on VHF High nor on Lower UHF. You want one solid reflector back there...so that it resonants nicely at those frequencies and reinforces the elements at those frequencies. It just so happens that these lengths are pretty good 3/2 wave resonant antennas at mid to lower UHF ch. 14-51, as well...so you miss that reinforcement and resulting gain increase with a partitioned antenna screen. The curved reflector also compresses the clover pattern of a 3/2 wave antenna at UHF frequencies and directs them back towards your antenna elements.
> 
> 
> Next up! Uniform illumination of the elements. The 4 bowties of the Kosmic SuperQuad Tune-A-Tenna present a smaller antenna area than the 8 bays dual 4 bay configuration. This means that you are likely to get more uniform illumination of the elements...which is good for integrating each element into the same transmission wire. Integrating different current levels and voltages degrades possible potential performance of the antenna. This situation is less likely to occur in the 4 bay Kosmic SuperQuad Tune-A-Tenna.
> 
> 
> Then there is the necessity of creating phased feedline integration between the 2 4 bays in an 8 bay. Many are poorly designed and defeat the potential gain increase of ganging 2 4 bays together.
> 
> 
> The Kosmic SuperQuad Tune-A-Tenna also has a wider beamwidth than the 8 bays (which typically run about 25 to 30 degrees on UHF). The Tune-A-Tenna on UHF is about 55 degrees +/- 5 degrees depending on frequency. This can be extremely beneficial for those with television transmissions off axis by up to 75 degrees (but you could also favor the tighter beamwidth depending on your situation)....but in that case you may want to go for an xg91 or similar Corner Reflector Yagi.
> 
> 
> The Kosmic SuperQuad Tune-A-Tenna also has a smaller profile for those Home Owner Association battles.
> 
> 
> Hope you found the above informative.
> 
> 
> EV



Some very interesting points!


But, downside is that you have to find your own reflector.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funkmasterta* /forum/post/19253285
> 
> 
> I think I'll pick up a 4 bay though since it's still a good price (and to be on the safe side!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )



Go ahead, but it really won't do any better than the 2bay, because that's all you need.


----------



## magna2

funkmasterta,


I agree with arxaw. The signal strengths from the tvfool plots show that you are getting very strong signals and the tv locations are quite close to the houses. Any indoor antenna will do at these locations and unless you want to get that far away Telemundo station, the 2 bay will more than suffice.


----------



## jerome8283

Hey guys,


TVFool shows the following for my location. Which antenna would you recommend?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a3621014d6c829 


Thanks in advance


----------



## arxaw

You need an outdoor antenna.


----------



## jerome8283




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19280969
> 
> 
> You need an outdoor antenna.



Thanks. I'm new to this and appreciate your help.


What made you suggest an outdoor antenna? Also does any antenna brand have a better track record over others? Would I need UHF and VHF compatibility? What range would be sufficient in order to obtain the greatest number of channels?


Thanks again.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jerome8283* /forum/post/19281004
> 
> 
> What made you suggest an outdoor antenna?



Your TVFool results show that reliable reception with an indoor antenna is not likely at your location, assuming it was based on your exact address. If you only entered your ZIP code, you should recheck TVFool, using your home address.


You have both VHF & UHF channels, so you need an antenna that will receive both. Based on your TVFool, this antenna , aimed roughly due West, should work well at your location.


----------



## jerome8283




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19281069
> 
> 
> Your TVFool results show that reliable reception with an indoor antenna is not likely at your location, assuming it was based on your exact address. If you only entered your ZIP code, you should recheck TVFool, using your home address.
> 
> 
> You have both VHF & UHF channels, so you need an antenna that will receive both. Based on your TVFool, this antenna , aimed roughly due West, should work well at your location.



Thanks. I guess I'm not fully understanding the report because I did not see where it recommended this antenna but thanks so much for your help.


I noticed the specs say, Channels: High VHF, UHF (7 - 69). Is channel 2(CBS) not available or is channel 2(CBS) on another channel?


----------



## arxaw

Scroll down to the bottom of your TVFool report for how the signal strength and colors relate to suggested antenna types.


The "Real" channel list on your TVFool report shows the channels the stations are actually broadcasting on. Many stations (Like ch "2"), remap or display their old analog ch numbers on their IDs. It's supposed to make station ID easier, but antenna selection a confusing PITA for the average viewer.


----------



## Kwincy

Here are my TV Fool results:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a36299ca717016 


Can anyone recommend a better indoor HDTV antenna? I already have the Meritline "Artec" "Kingbox" Antenna mounted near a window facing south (lower level window) in my condo attached to a Media Center 7 HTPC. I get most, if not all of the OTA HD channels, but I get a good amount of channel breakup, blockiness, etc.


Thanks in advance.


----------



## jerome8283




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19281571
> 
> 
> Scroll down to the bottom of your TVFool report for how the signal strength and colors relate to suggested antenna types.
> 
> 
> The "Real" channel list on your TVFool report shows the channels the stations are actually broadcasting on. Many stations (Like ch "2"), remap or display their old analog ch numbers on their IDs. It's supposed to make station ID easier, but antenna selection a confusing PITA for the average viewer.




I see now. Thanks again


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kwincy* /forum/post/19282145
> 
> 
> Here are my TV Fool results:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a36299ca717016
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend a better indoor HDTV antenna? I already have the Meritline "Artec" "Kingbox" Antenna mounted near a window facing south (lower level window) in my condo attached to a Media Center 7 HTPC. I get most, if not all of the OTA HD channels, but I get a good amount of channel breakup, blockiness, etc.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.



I like the single classic bowtie from Radio Shack. Your Artec might be good enough if it is located near electronics. Some coax and a different location could be a solution.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kwincy* /forum/post/19282145
> 
> 
> Here are my TV Fool results:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a36299ca717016
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend a better indoor HDTV antenna? I already have the Meritline "Artec" "Kingbox" Antenna mounted near a window facing south (lower level window) in my condo attached to a Media Center 7 HTPC. I get most, if not all of the OTA HD channels, but I get a good amount of channel breakup, blockiness, etc...


This antenna may work better. It's not expensive and you can return it if it doesn't work.

Experiment with the dipole rods. For upper VHF, extending them no longer than about half their length may work better.


As deltaguy said, keep indoor antennas as far away from electronic crap in your house as possible, TVs, computers, routers, phones, etc. And an East-facing window would likely give you much better reception. To add a longer length of coax, use a barrel splice, also available at Radio Shack.


----------



## Kwincy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/19283234
> 
> 
> I like the single classic bowtie from Radio Shack. Your Artec might be good enough if it is located near electronics. Some coax and a different location could be a solution.



Thank you.


----------



## hanesian

A newby OTA guy trying to figure out what antenna might be best for my home. Any feeback/suggestion based on my TVFool analysis below would be greatly appreciated. TIA!


----------



## arxaw

You're in the "indoor antenna" thread, so I'll assume you mean indoor antenna. With your TVFool results, I would try this specific indoor antenna from Radio Shack.


For attic or outdoor, I would get this one. Aim it compass direction of roughly 340° N/NE.


----------



## deltaguy

hanesian,


If you pick up the budget at Radio Shack, don't forget to pick up a barrel splice as well (pictured above). You'll need it to look for hot spots for reception. Bear in mind, a hot spot for your channels around 10 miles away isn't necessarily going to be hot for your stations at 7 miles. Multiple antennas and an a-b switch might be a solution. Those signals are also high enough for the classic bowtie to work, including the vhf. I get rf 9 and 10 with the bowtie just fine with less signal (TVFool) here. Good Luck.


----------



## arxaw

I cannot get ch 10 with the RS budget antenna. But my ch 10 is over 71 miles away. I do, however, get all of the other channels that are shown in my TVFool report , down to and including KFSM 18. Using it indoors. YMMV.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19289050
> 
> 
> I cannot get ch 10 with the RS budget antenna. But my ch 10 is over 71 miles away. I do, however, get all of the other channels that are shown in my TVFool report , down to and including KFSM 18. Using it indoors. YMMV.



Does the RS budget get consistent fractured A/V on rf 10?


----------



## arxaw

At my location, RF 10 is too weak to get even a blip from it, using *any* antenna indoors.


----------



## hanesian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19287608
> 
> 
> You're in the "indoor antenna" thread, so I'll assume you mean indoor antenna. With your TVFool results, I would try this specific indoor antenna from Radio Shack.
> 
> 
> For attic or outdoor, I would get this one. Aim it compass direction of roughly 340° N/NE.



Thanks for the recommendations and information, arxaw. I appreciate it. One follow up question, if you don't mind: if I use the RCA ANT751, could you clarify why I would want to aim it at roughly 340° N/NE, since most of the channels seem to fall closer to 2°? No doubt a newby question, but then again, when it comes to antennas I *am* a newby!










Thanks for the help!


----------



## arxaw

That compass direction should get all of your stronger stations and some of the weaker ones below the major ones shown at the top of the TVFool list. If you have no interest in channels on the list below PBS (KTCI 23), just aim it compass direction between 7° & 11°.


Your signals are so strong that a few degrees either way shouldn't matter.


----------



## hanesian

Gotcha. Thanks again!


----------



## theclipper

Hey Guys,


I've never used an indoor antenna for my Panny Plasma before so I'm a definite newbie. The following is the tvfool report for my area. I was thinking of ordering the Terk HDTVa antenna. I was hoping for some advice as to whether this would be a good decision or if there was a better option out there for me. I believe that my front window (which is where my TV is) looks out to the West. If I were to get this I wouldn't need one of the DTV set-top boxes would I?












Thanks so much!


----------



## arxaw

Set top boxes are for old, analog televisions or monitors. Your TV should have a built in OTA tuner, assuming it is fairly new and not just an HD "monitor."


As for antennas, some people have had good results with the antenna you mentioned, but I bought one and it worked horribly for me, so I returned it. I've had much better luck indoors with unamplified antennas, particularly this inexpensive model from radio shack , but *YMMV*. It should be available locally, and easily returnable if it doesn't work for you.


If you have problems, it will likely be with VHF channels 9, 11, 13 on your TVFool chart. VHF channels (chs 2 thru 13 shown in the "*real*" column) are usually the most difficult to receive indoors.


Most of your channels of interest are to the SE, with FOX to the W/SW, which may take some persistence to find a hot spot where all your channels will come in without futzing with the antenna. The trick is to find a hot spot where they do. This often requires a longer coax than what comes on the antenna, to get several feet away from interfering electronics, which make a huge difference in reception, usually with VHF channels. To extend the coax on a hard-wired indoor antenna, use a barrel splice to connect longer lengths.


----------



## Icedmocha

What antenna would you (generic you; anyone!) recommend?

I am currently using a coat-hangar antenna with 4 rows of hangars (two on each row). I've been reading for a couple hours now and am still at a loss.

We currently receive stations 27.1 and 33.1. The other stations come in sometimes but usually scatter multiple times every few minutes. I was thinking of getting the CM4228. The antenna is mounted in the attic, no possibility of roof mount. Thank you!








[/img]


----------



## Marco T

Anyone have this model?


It is non-am-plified, but with an attenuation? dial. The best set top antenna I have, it kills the SV2210.


Nice big loop for uhf. I did add a coax wire though, although I don't suspet it affected performance much.


Anyway I thought it coul be part of your test chart.


----------



## Icedmocha

I purchased a CM4228. It won't fit through my access hole to the attic. If I were to to cut the reflector in two, and then reattach it with metal plates would I have a degradation in signal quality?


----------



## arxaw

Will the bowtie part fit through the hatch without the reflector?


----------



## Icedmocha

Ended up making the hole bigger.


----------



## jhaferman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/19245985
> 
> 
> Since you already HAVE the VU-120XR installed and if it's doing the job for VHF,
> 
> there is NO NEED to replace it. Simply join it with a new UHF antenna using UVSJ
> 
> prior to going through the W-G AP8700 Preamp.
> 
> 
> HOWEVER, with so many nearby, strong FM stations, you should check to see if
> 
> the VU-120XR works better WITHOUT the Preamp for VHF channels. FM stations
> 
> can degrade Hi-VHF reception due to second-order harmonic distortion in the Preamp.
> 
> If it works better WITHOUT the Preamp, you should use a VHF/UHF Diplexer on
> 
> the OUTPUT of the Preamp, joining the unamplified VHF antenna with the Preamp'd
> 
> UHF antenna.



Thank you so much for your help.


The VU-120XR did NOT work better without the Preamp for VHF channels.


Per your recommendation, I installed the HD-9032 for UHF, kept the VU-120XR for VHF, joined the UHF and VHF with a UVSJ, and kept the AP-8700 for Preamplification. Everything is working awesome!!! The two weakest UHF were 34% and 73% before and now they are both 92% (I believe largely because of antenna orientation).


Thanks again to everyone for their time and help.


----------



## miochza

I live in Cambridge, MA. This is my TVFool Report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...cef3322c162cf5 

I currently have an RS 1892 UFOantenna, which has served me well when I lived in Providence.


I get very spotty reception in my area, with this antenna. I have it near the ceiling and near a window. I need to use it with the gain set to 3 (out of 3). I am willing to buy a new antenna. Since I rent a ground level apartment, I am kind of stuck with indoor antennas. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## arxaw

Your TVFool is such that an amplified antenna may cause more problems than it solves. If I had your TVFool, I would try this specific antenna , aimed SW near a wall or window that faces that general direction. Without knowing what your building is made of, it's impossible to tell if anything will work. Also, your TVFool was not based on your exact address, so it may be incorrect.


Another good antenna for your TVFool would be this one. It is an outdoor antenna, but small and can be concealed by putting it in the box it came in and spray painting the box.


----------



## highlinesigns

Thanks to arxaw and his repeated mentions of the budget Radio Shack antenna all my reception problems have been solved. After the transition a year and a half ago I chose the Eagle Aspen 2 and have been using it as an indoor antenna. It is a good antenna but now I think it may have been too good, ie: to sensitive.


Here is what was happening: we have only three stations that we can expect to pick up with an indoor antenna, they are clustered within 1 degree at a distance of 18 miles. The Aspen, whick is an UHF antenna was getting excellent reception of VHF station and good recption of one of the UHF station but only spotty reception of the other UHF station. The poor station was always breaking up and it was hard to find it's sweet spot which was never quite in the same place. It was especially difficult around the hours of sunset. I can't stand the thought of a cable bill so I put up with it but kept reading and looking for the answer.


I resisted the idea that so cheap and simple of an antenna could help but after stumbling across this thread and reading arxaw's postings I thought: what the h. I drove 2 miles to radio shack, paid my $12, drove hamoe and within 2 minutes had a perfect stable reception. I had tried this style 4 or 5 times before but this one works where the others never did. Why? I don't have a clue. Every situation is different but this is what has worked for me.


Thanks again arxaw.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *highlinesigns* /forum/post/19415652
> 
> 
> Thanks to arxaw and his repeated mentions of the budget Radio Shack antenna all my reception problems have been solved. After the transition a year and a half ago I chose the Eagle Aspen 2 and have been using it as an indoor antenna. It is a good antenna but now I think it may have been too good, ie: to sensitive.
> 
> 
> Here is what was happening: we have only three stations that we can expect to pick up with an indoor antenna, they are clustered within 1 degree at a distance of 18 miles. The Aspen, whick is an UHF antenna was getting excellent reception of VHF station and good recption of one of the UHF station but only spotty reception of the other UHF station. The poor station was always breaking up and it was hard to find it's sweet spot which was never quite in the same place. It was especially difficult around the hours of sunset. I can't stand the thought of a cable bill so I put up with it but kept reading and looking for the answer.
> 
> 
> I resisted the idea that so cheap and simple of an antenna could help but after stumbling across this thread and reading arxaw's postings I thought: what the h. I drove 2 miles to radio shack, paid my $12, drove hamoe and within 2 minutes had a perfect stable reception. I had tried this style 4 or 5 times before but this one works where the others never did. Why? I don't have a clue. Every situation is different but this is what has worked for me.



highlinesigns,

I really don't know why that particular model budget antenna works so much better than others I have tried. But it does. The only differences I can tell are a larger UHF loop than others, and the coax is heavier gauge.


Glad it solved your reception problem.


----------



## sshibata

Hi,


I'm pretty new at this (so much so that I have to attach my TV Fool report) and have been reading the later posts in the threads to gain a little understanding.


I'm currently using an older Terk amplified low-profile antenna with a Panasonic LCD, but I'm wondering if I can do better. It seems I'm always trying to make small adjustments to the antenna.


Thanks in advance for all of your help and expertise!


----------



## arxaw

sshibata,

Your antenna may just be in a dead spot for good reception, or is getting interference from something electrical near it (sometimes even the TV). If your antenna is connected via a short piece of coax, try adding a longer piece of coax and moving it around the room. Try different physical locations in the room and also higher and lower. A west/southwest facing wall or window would be best. If the coax is hard wired to the antenna, use a barrel splice to connect a longer coax between the antenna & the TV.


Also, when signals as strong as yours are on your TVFool report, amplifiers often make reception _worse_, not better. You may have better luck with the basic unamp'd RS budget antenna, model# 15-1874 .


----------



## JimboG

Couple of rules of thumb:


If it doesn't look as ugly as an old TV antenna, it probably won't perform as beautifully as an old TV antenna.


Good amplifiers aren't cheap and cheap amplifiers aren't good.


The vast majority of antennas that Terk makes are overpriced junk. Three exceptions that come readily to mind are Terk's Silver Sensor knock off, Terk's AM Advantage indoor AM antenna, and a Terk small rooftop antenna that looks like a standard 1960's rooftop antenna. There may be a few more exceptions, but Terk has been notorious for selling overpriced junk that looks pretty but performs lousy. Think Bose or Monster Cable level overpriced.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimboG* /forum/post/19426495
> 
> 
> ...The vast majority of antennas that Terk makes are overpriced junk. Three exceptions that come readily to mind are Terk's Silver Sensor knock off...



I bought a Terk HDTVa that has the UHF yagi and VHF dipoles. I'm not kidding, I got more stations with a piece of wire than I did with that thing. Maybe it was defective, but I returned it for a refund.


----------



## sshibata

Thanks arxaw, for the speedy reply and advice. I just tried moving the antenna around, and it does make a slight difference. I suspect, however, that your hunch is correct: the antenna itself is part of the problem. I'll make a trip to RS so that I can compare and contrast.


And thanks also, JimboG, for your words of wisdom. I bought the Terk 13+ years ago on sale, but it doesn't look like any of your notable exceptions. Live and learn!


----------



## JimboG




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sshibata* /forum/post/19427861
> 
> 
> And thanks also, JimboG, for your words of wisdom. I bought the Terk 13+ years ago on sale, but it doesn't look like any of your notable exceptions. Live and learn!



Thirteen or fourteen years ago I bought a Terk FM 55 antenna for $90 or $100. Terrible waste of money; I would have been better off with the $3 FM dipole that came with the receiver. Worse still, Radio Shack was selling the highly regarded Antennacraft FM6 antenna for about $20 at the time.


Sometimes you have to pay a whole lot to get good quality. Sometimes you can get a surprisingly good deal for very little money. The $12 Radio Shack indoor antenna that arxaw recommended is one of those good deals. Free over the air HDTV is a real steal!


----------



## tylerSC

Terk HDTVa and HDTVi are very good indoor antennas with a precisely engineered log periodic design for UHF and classic rabbit ears/dipoles for VHF. The build quality is better, less flimsy than the original Silver Sensor sold by Zenith/Phillips. But yes, they are quite overpriced, but they do work well in most situations. And their TV1 VHF dipoles are about the best VHF individual rabbit ears sold; they work great for FM radio, even HD radio. But their flat panel antennas designed for cosmetics are indeed overpriced junk.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC* /forum/post/19428730
> 
> 
> Terk HDTVa and HDTVi are very good indoor antennas with a precisely engineered log periodic design for UHF and classic rabbit ears/dipoles for VHF. The build quality is better, less flimsy than the original Silver Sensor sold by Zenith/Phillips. But yes, they are quite overpriced, but they do work well in most situations. And their TV1 VHF dipoles are about the best VHF individual rabbit ears sold; they work great for FM radio, even HD radio. But their flat panel antennas designed for cosmetics are indeed overpriced junk.



I've got nothing against either of the Terks you've mentioned. A local engineer liked the HDTVa. It wasn't best, but good. If you haven't tried the single classic bowtie, you might be surprised. VHF works best if the twin-lead has an upward attitude. But who's tried this $4 UHF bowtie for VHF?


The biggest problem with the bowtie is that you have to seat them. Yet, they can be hidden far more easily than most antennas.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC* /forum/post/19428730
> 
> 
> Terk HDTVa and HDTVi are very good indoor antennas with a precisely engineered log periodic design for UHF and classic rabbit ears/dipoles for VHF...



I guess the HDTVa I purchased was defective, because it wouldn't pick up much of anything. Also, the antenna's base is way too small - it is very unstable with the dipoles extended and easily knocked over.


----------



## tylerSC

The RadioShack budget antenna 1874 is probably the best basic indoor antenna on the market, with the classic VHF rabbit ears and UHF loop. Don't waste your time on the junk currently sold at Walmart, Kmart and Sears, especially those overpriced, omnidirectional, flat panel antennas. The Hdtva/Hdtvi would be the next step up. And the DB2 or Clearstream 1 or 2 also make good indoor antennas, and although designed for UHF, they can receive VHF in strong areas, but not always.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Tyler,


Interesting you mentioned the ClearStreams... I heard they're getting a VHF dipole ready as an add-on to provide a predictable measure of VHF performance.


----------



## dondondon

After ditching Comcast, my Panny Plasma needs an antenna. Browsed through Amazon and came across the RCA 1450B (went to Amazon because I have a $25 gift card and Prime). Is that good enough for me? Perfectly willing to go to the local Radio Shack if that is the way to go.


Can someone steer me in the right direction?


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Don,


A basic un-amplified loop and rabbit ear from Radio Shack should do it. Place in an east-facing window for best results.


----------



## arxaw

Go to the local Radio Shack and drop 12 bucks on the 15-1874 . With your very strong signals, the last thing you would want is an amplified antenna like the one you mentioned.


When you first try the antenna, try leaving the dipole rods fully collapsed, like in this picture. The dipole rods are for your stations on chs 8 -10 & 12. The loop picks up all your other (UHF) stations.


----------



## jlhct

Hello,


Here are my TVFool results, would I be able to use an indoor antenna at all, even if amplified? or is my best/only choice an outdoor antenna?


Thanks very much!

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a31890fa1459


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jlhct* /forum/post/19446136
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> Here are my TVFool results, would I be able to use an indoor antenna at all, even if amplified? or is my best/only choice an outdoor antenna?
> 
> 
> Thanks very much!
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a31890fa1459



You're behind a pretty nasty mountain. I've found the TVfool tends to underestimate the ill effects of the terrain when you're close in.


You can try an indoor or attic antenna, but be prepared to install a bigger one outside.


----------



## tylerSC

I "play with" various indoor antennas in 2nd floor bonus room, connected to Samsung made Insignia plasma, 720p version, 2009 model. Good PQ for local OTA. With Clearstream 1 connected to CM dist amp, I receive Charlotte channels WBTV-3 and WCNC-36 at 10 and 6 bars respectively, some 75 miles from towers. These are UHF signals, with WBTV at full power, WCNC a little less and side-mounted. Off the side I receive all locals, including actual VHF channels WSPA-7 and WLOS-13 at 6 or 7 bars. Same results with DB2. So these Antennas Direct products are indeed very good indoor antennas, and with DTV reception, real antenna design is necessary, not the Walmart junk. Especially with indoor antennas. Also Channel Master 4220 is another good double bow tie that works well indoors. But for many, rabbit ears may be necessary for VHF, so the rumored Clearstream upgrade sounds promising.


----------



## arxaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by *jlhct* 
Hello,


Here are my TVFool results, would I be able to use an indoor antenna at all, even if amplified? or is my best/only choice an outdoor antenna?


Thanks very much!

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a31890fa1459
Impossible to predict indoor reception, due to building materials and antenna location relative to the direction of the transmitter towers, but most likely your digital channels in green and perhaps a few of the yellow ones on your TVFool could be received with this specific and often suggested antenna aimed roughly South. *Location* indoors is of prime importance. If you don't get solid reception, it's probably due to the antenna's location. Try moving it and extending the coax with a longer piece, using a barrel splice.


If you don't get all your channels of interest or if you want to get more of the channels on your list like some of the ones in red, you'll need an outdoor antenna, aimed in the same direction.


----------



## arxaw

tylerSC, I get UHF channels from 71.5 miles away with the antenna in my previous post, also located indoors. No amp. Location has a lot to do with indoor reception.


----------



## pglover19

I live in Mechanicsville, VA. This is my TVFool Report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a30d43efb32a 


I just purchased a VIZIO 26" LED LCD TV and plan to put the TV on the counter in the kitchen. There is no cable outlet available in the kitchen, so I want to get OTA channels. What indoor antenna would you recommend?


----------



## arxaw

Based on your TVFool, the RS 15-1874 (and not a walmart lookalike).
* http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 *

Aim broadside to the Southwest.


I hate to sound like a Radio Shack promoter (I can't stand the stores), but this simple little antenna often works much better than one would expect, and much better than many indoor antennas costing several times as much.


----------



## jlhct

Thank you for all of your suggestions!


I ended up getting an indoor/outdoor antenna by Antennas Direct. I put it outside and was able to get some channels. Others fade in and out. Tomorrow I will try to elevate it to see how much that helps. I am not too keen on getting up on the top of the roof, so hopefully the 8 ft or so I can elevate the antenna will make enough of a difference










I am ready to ditch pay TV so I cant wait to see if this works, so far so good though with what I am able to receive.


Thanks again for the info, and helping me save time! I'll post an update soon.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jlhct* /forum/post/19447728
> 
> 
> ...I ended up getting an indoor/outdoor antenna by Antennas Direct. I put it outside and was able to get some channels. Others fade in and out.



Which model?


----------



## jlhct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19447740
> 
> 
> Which model?



Clearstream2


----------



## tylerSC

For better results, maybe adjust location and add a preamp. As Arxaw suggests, location is key. And the RS-1874 is indeed a very good basic indoor antenna-rabbit ears and loop. The Clearstreams, DB2, HDTVa, etc are just possible improvements/alternatives when stronger gain is needed. The RS antenna did receive one of my 75 mile Clt stations, WBTV-3, but not all of them, so I needed to step up to Clearstream in order to pick up WCNC-36 and others. So it all just depends.


----------



## pglover19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19447395
> 
> 
> Based on your TVFool, the RS 15-1874 (and not a walmart lookalike).
> * http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 *
> 
> Aim broadside to the Southwest.
> 
> 
> I hate to sound like a Radio Shack promoter (I can't stand the stores), but this simple little antenna often works much better than one would expect, and much better than many indoor antennas costing several times as much.



So you would not recommend getting the ClearStream2 antenna? Once again this is my TVFool report ( http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a30d43efb32a ).


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jlhct* /forum/post/19447787
> 
> 
> Clearstream2



That is a UHF antenna and may not work well for VHF channels. You have at least 3 major networks in the VHF band.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pglover19* /forum/post/19448651
> 
> 
> So you would not recommend getting the ClearStream2 antenna? Once again this is my TVFool report ( http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a30d43efb32a ).


*No.* You have both VHF & UHF channels.



.


----------



## pglover19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19448656
> 
> *No.* You have both VHF & UHF channels.



Any other recommendation on other antennas if the Radio Shack model does not work?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pglover19* /forum/post/19448661
> 
> 
> Any other recommendation on other antennas if the Radio Shack model does not work?


*YMMV*, but strictly based on my own experience helping people install indoor and outdoor antennas, I have usually found that if the RS budget model doesn't work well, it's either sitting in an indoor dead spot (adding a longer coax and moving it around may help), there is indoor interference from electrical/electronic & or wireless devices, the building materials are blocking reliable indoor reception or distance & terrain are not conducive to indoor reception and an outdoor antenna is needed.


There are no "miracle" indoor antennas and special "DTV" antennas do not exist. That is just a label on the box to convince you to buy an antenna.


Per your TVFool, your signals are *very* strong and could probably be received with a twist-tie wire stuck in the coax port. If a budget antenna doesn't work, the problem is likely due to something else.



.


----------



## hanesian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19447395
> 
> 
> Based on your TVFool, the RS 15-1874 (and not a walmart lookalike).
> * http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 *
> 
> Aim broadside to the Southwest.
> 
> 
> I hate to sound like a Radio Shack promoter (I can't stand the stores), but this simple little antenna often works much better than one would expect, and much better than many indoor antennas costing several times as much.



pglover19,


I had a similar question several weeks ago and took arxaw's advice about getting that *specific* cheap Radio shack antenna. I was a bit skeptical at what looked like a cheap antenna that cost only a touch more than ten bucks, but I trusted his experience & knowledge. I'm glad I did.


That antenna has worked perfectly, even when I put it in the attic as a temporary measure until I could order and receive the attic antenna he recommended. In fact, it is working so well I am waiting on buying the attic antenna.


Try the SPECIFIC model recommended. Really. And thanks again, arxaw - I appreciate your help here!


----------



## jlhct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19448656
> 
> 
> That is a UHF antenna and may not work well for VHF channels. You have at least 3 major networks in the VHF band.
> 
> *No.* You have both VHF & UHF channels.
> 
> 
> 
> .



Thanks again!


I'll take this one back too and make a trip to Radio Shack to see if that indoor one will work.


I'm glad these stores have good return policies, it makes this process a LOT easier


----------



## arxaw

hanesian, thanks.


The first time I bought one (based on others' recommendations here on AVS), I was also skeptical. But if signals are strong and interference free, it's all that's needed.


If yours continues to work fine in the attic, there's no reason to waste money replacing it with a more expensive antenna.


----------



## pglover19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19448700
> 
> *YMMV*, but strictly based on my own experience helping people install indoor and outdoor antennas, I have usually found that if the RS budget model doesn't work well, it's either sitting in an indoor dead spot (adding a longer coax and moving it around may help), there is indoor interference from electrical/electronic & or wireless devices, the building materials are blocking reliable indoor reception or distance & terrain are not conducive to indoor reception and an outdoor antenna is needed.
> 
> 
> There are no "miracle" indoor antennas and special "DTV" antennas do not exist. That is just a label on the box to convince you to buy an antenna.
> 
> 
> Per your TVFool, your signals are *very* strong and could probably be received with a twist-tie wire stuck in the coax port. If a budget antenna doesn't work, the problem is likely due to something else.
> 
> 
> 
> .



wow... The OTA channels(UHF & VHF) looks great with the Radio Shack antenna.. Thanks you so much for the recommendation...


----------



## arxaw

pglover19, I'm glad it worked for you.


----------



## JHZR2

Hello,


My TVFool is http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a329c91e01d2 


My home had cable TV when the PO lived there, and Comcast strung coax all over the outside and around the basement. We have coax in most every room...


What I'd like to do is use the coax up in the attic to do an indoor attic-mounted antenna, one lead split out to the TV up there, then through an amplifier through the network everywhere else. I may reduce down the system to minimize splitters, but figure Ill have at least two or three...


I'd really love to get channel 52, if possible. What I know is that we can generally get it and everything else clearly from the attic. From the second story, only at night on good nights. On the first story, we sometimes cannot even get in our main channels, which are 3,6,10,29. I currently have a terk with a log-periodic on the first story... second story will only receive most channels with the amplifier on (small RCA rabbit ears) and up to full - but then it is crystal clear.


Was considering a DB2 or DB4 with a 7777 amplifier right after a splitter in the attic that feeds the TV up there. Would that be overkill? Certainly would love other recommendations.


Thanks!


----------



## jlhct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19446768
> 
> 
> Impossible to predict indoor reception, due to building materials and antenna location relative to the direction of the transmitter towers, but most likely your digital channels in green and perhaps a few of the yellow ones on your TVFool could be received with this specific and often suggested antenna aimed roughly South. *Location* indoors is of prime importance. If you don't get solid reception, it's probably due to the antenna's location. Try moving it and extending the coax with a longer piece, using a barrel splice.
> 
> 
> If you don't get all your channels of interest or if you want to get more of the channels on your list like some of the ones in red, you'll need an outdoor antenna, aimed in the same direction.



I'm going to have to experiment with moving the antenna around and getting a splicer. So far I get nothing with this new antenna, but we'll see what the move brings.


In the meantime, i'll start researching outdoor antennas, hopefully a size that I can handle since I dont want to get up on the top of the roof


----------



## arxaw

jlhct,

As strong as some of your signals are, you should be getting at least _something_ with the antenna, unless you're living in a structure that has a metal roof and/or foil-backed wall insulation or steel siding.


When you did a digital antenna channel scan in your TV menu, it found absolutely nothing?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JHZR2* /forum/post/19451071
> 
> 
> ...I'd really love to get channel 52, if possible. What I know is that we can generally get it and everything else clearly from the attic...
> 
> 
> Was considering a DB2 or DB4 with a 7777 amplifier right after a splitter in the attic that feeds the TV up there. Would that be overkill? Certainly would love other recommendations.
> 
> 
> Thanks!



I would not get a DB2 or DB4 because they are UHF antennas and you have channels in all 3 bands; VHF-LO, VHF-HI & UHF. In addition, your closest channels are very strong, which might overload a 7777. A better amp choice, *if needed*, would be a distribution amp or a preamp more suitable for areas with strong signals.


What antenna are you currently using in the attic?

Do you have to move it around to get all your channels of interest?


----------



## jlhct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19452719
> 
> 
> jlhct,
> 
> As strong as some of your signals are, you should be getting at least _something_ with the antenna, unless you're living in a structure that has a metal roof and/or foil-backed wall insulation or steel siding.
> 
> 
> When you did a digital antenna channel scan in your TV menu, it found absolutely nothing?



Hello!


I live in a block home with just a shingle roof, no siding - but the foil backed insulation could be a possibility, not sure though.


When I did a channel scan with the indoor antenna, I received nothing at all. When I had the Clearstream, I had that antenna outside - not elevated and I was able to get some channels. Some would fade in and out and others had no sound. I was able to see 8, 10, 12, 33 & 61. The others were just black screens.


Thanks!


----------



## JHZR2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19452769
> 
> 
> I would not get a DB2 or DB4 because they are UHF antennas and you have channels in all 3 bands; VHF-LO, VHF-HI & UHF. In addition, your closest channels are very strong, which might overload a 7777. A better amp choice, *if needed*, would be a distribution amp or a preamp more suitable for areas with strong signals.
> 
> 
> What antenna are you currently using in the attic?
> 
> Do you have to move it around to get all your channels of interest?



Hello,


Yes I was reading about other amps better for higher-signal areas. I saw that there was also a 7778 which is suitable for medium to strong areas when there is a distribution to feed through. I had heard good things about the low-noise characteristics of the 7777, that was why I figured something along that design might be beneficial... But Im all ears.


We could get all channels well it seems with the RCA amplified rabbit ear setup (rabbit ears and a UHF ring in the middle). However the amp needed to be turned all the way up. Sometimes adjustment is needed, seemingly weather dependent...


If I could get "virtual channel" 3, 6, 10, 12, 23, 29, 52 that would be great. The only ones that are not UHF are 6 and 12. We have never been able to get either on rabbit ears anyplace but up in the attic... But when up there, it works OK.


Something like the 7778 would let me make a twinlead dipole like this:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 


and then get a good UHF to combine in and be OK, it seems to me (maybe Im wrong though, trying to learn). My attic is walk-up and finished (80 yo home, all wood), but I have space between kneeling walls which lets me install antennas high and out of sight. I can put the UHF in one wall and the VHF in another I suppose if need be.


Thanks very much for your help!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jlhct* /forum/post/19453068
> 
> 
> I live in a block home with just a shingle roof, no siding - but the foil backed insulation could be a possibility, not sure though.



That explains it. A friend lives in a concrete block structure and gets no indoor TV or cell reception. Is it possible to try the antenna in your attic, using a barrel splice and long extension coax? Set it on top of a plastic storage box or just a cardboard box to get it off the attic floor.


----------



## jlhct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19453209
> 
> 
> That explains it. A friend lives in a concrete block structure and gets no indoor TV or cell reception. Is it possible to try the antenna in your attic, using a barrel splice and long extension coax? Set it on top of a plastic storage box or just a cardboard box to get it off the attic floor.



You know, its strange because my cell phone works really well in the house. I may have a cell tower nearby or something.


I'm not sure if I can, I'll have to take a look in the crawlspace, but the TV is in a place that wouldn't make feeding a cable easy. Its sounding more and more like an outdoor antenna is what will fit the bill.


----------



## linter

I'd like to put it in my 2nd floor attic space. What do you think?










http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3c0fdb72a0b


----------



## RosevilleHT

I'm dumping CTV this week, and making the DTV jump (Finally!). I'll admit I haven't been able to read all the threads yet, but I'd like to see if I'm even getting into a battle I can win.


First, we are on the ground floor of a two story apartment. The building is steel beam w/ stucco exterior. I'm assuming I'd have to put the antenna on the porch, and there are buildings in the LOS to our strongest signals (as shown in the graph below).


Could I get some suggestions on antennas? I'm not willing to spend more then about $200, and I certainly appreciate the help.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a37a73a2e0bd


----------



## kmueller44

We dumped the dish and going DTV. We have a large antenna in the attic that I've been attempting to make work but the cables are a mess and the splitters that the original owner used are killing the signal to the lines that I'm able to track. I'm having such an issue trying to locate where everything goes. The other issue is that when the house was switched to cable, the line coming in is in the basement and I have no idea if our main TV room was ever connected to the Antenna, so I think I'm screwed there anyway.


I've tried a few indoor antennas and some are okay at best but missing a large portion of the available OTA stations.


So I need some suggestions on an indoor antenna to try, any help with anything would be fantastic and greatly appreciated. Our dish get's shut off on the 12th...


----------



## arxaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by *RosevilleHT* 
I'm dumping CTV this week, and making the DTV jump (Finally!). I'll admit I haven't been able to read all the threads yet, but I'd like to see if I'm even getting into a battle I can win.


First, we are on the ground floor of a two story apartment. The building is steel beam w/ stucco exterior. I'm assuming I'd have to put the antenna on the porch, and there are buildings in the LOS to our strongest signals (as shown in the graph below).


Could I get some suggestions on antennas? I'm not willing to spend more then about $200, and I certainly appreciate the help.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a37a73a2e0bd
Steel beams & stucco sound like a recipe for disastrous indoor reception, particularly for your ABC & PBS chs in the VHF band. You can try indoor though. First, try the budget RS antenna , linked to in numerous previous posts. If it doesn't work, return it to RS because you'll likely need something outdoors for reliable reception.


Based on your TVFool, this small outdoor antenna should work.
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...9354634&sr=8-1 

If you can't permanently mount it on your porch, stick the mast (included) in a 5 gallon bucket filled with pea gravel. Start by aiming it compass direction 184, although with buildings in the way, you may have to aim it a different direction. With patience, should find a good spot to aim it. Moving it to different physical spots on the porch may help find a hot spot, too.


----------



## arxaw

kmueller44, your signal strengths are such that you might also try the indoor antenna I mentioned in the post above this one. Aim it broadside to compass direction 92°. If it doesn't work well, your home's building materials may be blocking good indoor reception, or there could be indoor interference from nearby electronics. Extend the antenna's coax length with a barrel splice & a longer piece of coax, then try different spots in the room to find a reception hot spot.


----------



## RosevilleHT

Quote:

Originally Posted by *arxaw* 
Steel beams & stucco sound like a recipe for disastrous indoor reception, particularly for your ABC & PBS chs in the VHF band. You can try indoor though. First, try the budget RS antenna , linked to in numerous previous posts. If it doesn't work, return it to RS because you'll likely need something outdoors for reliable reception.


Based on your TVFool, this small outdoor antenna should work.
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...9354634&sr=8-1 

If you can't permanently mount it on your porch, stick the mast (included) in a 5 gallon bucket filled with pea gravel. Start by aiming it compass direction 184, although with buildings in the way, you may have to aim it a different direction. With patience, should find a good spot to aim it. Moving it to different physical spots on the porch may help find a hot spot, too.
Awesome, thanks for the advice.


----------



## tvlurker




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JHZR2* /forum/post/19451071
> 
> 
> 
> I'd really love to get channel 52, if possible.



Isn't WNJT 52 Trenton the same as WNJS 23 Camden? TVFool shows WNJS at 58 dB Noise Margin.


----------



## kmueller44




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19463042
> 
> 
> kmueller44, your signal strengths are such that you might also try the indoor antenna I mentioned in the post above this one. Aim it broadside to compass direction 92°. If it doesn't work well, your home's building materials may be blocking good indoor reception, or there could be indoor interference from nearby electronics. Extend the antenna's coax length with a barrel splice & a longer piece of coax, then try different spots in the room to find a reception hot spot.



Thanks, I'll give it a shot.


----------



## faiz_23

Please help me out i tried a RCA Ant-121R from Lowes for $10 and it worked decent it will pull up 23 channels but only 17 or 18 come in clear


here is a sample of the ones i am getting most seem to be withing 35-40 miles. Anything i can do like try to Radioshack one or what about this one on sale or terk htdv antenna from amazon.


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a37b08cbda5a 

http://1saleaday.com/ 

http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT121-Ind.../dp/B00009W3E2 

http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified...9809957&sr=1-1 




ktdn-dt


KXAS-dt


ktvt


ktxa


KUVN


kdfi-dt


kmpx


kdaf


kxtx --choppy


ktaq


KERA


kstr-dt


kldt


tbn


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *faiz_23* /forum/post/19489244
> 
> 
> Please help me out



You can help *us* out by giving us more specific information about your signals as follows:


1. Go to http://www.tvfool.com/ .


2. Click "See Which TV Stations You Can Get on a Map", then "Start MAPS".


3. Enter your address, or your exact latitude and longitude if you know them, and click the "Map this" button. You'll get a map showing your supposed location, and a list of stations.


4. If necessary, adjust your location by dragging the marker around on the map. Switch to satellite view and you'll probably be able to see your house.


5. Underneath the map, enter the height of your antenna (current or planned).


6. Above the map, click the "Make Radar Plot" button. You'll get a table of detailed information about the signal levels at your location. You'll also get a Web address that links to that page. Paste the address here so people can advise you intelligently. (Note that the table does not display your exact location.)


----------



## arxaw

*faiz_23*, what is your building constructed of on the exterior? Stucco, brick, wood, etc.? Stucco or brick can significantly degrade indoor reception. Also, if the walls contain foil backed insulation, that can kill indoor reception.


You may be experiencing interference from other electrical or wireless devices in your house - even the TV itself may interfere. Attach a longer coax to your existing antenna and patiently move it to different spots in the room - or another room if possible, away from all electrical devices and particularly computers and wireless stuff like phones & routers. A window facing south/southwest would likely be your best spot for your antenna. With indoor antennas, finding a hot spot with strong signal and little interference is very important.


I doubt an amplified antenna would do any good and might even make reception worse. Your channel signal strengths (in green on your digital TVFool report) are quite strong and may overload an amplified antenna. Amp'd antennas also increase the likelihood of electrical interference.


You might want to try the budget RS antenna . I'm not saying it will be any better than what you have, but it works very well for many with similar TVFool reports. And it's easily returnable if it isn't any better.


----------



## faiz_23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/19489617
> 
> 
> You can help *us* out by giving us more specific information about your signals as follows:
> 
> 
> 1. Go to http://www.tvfool.com/ .
> 
> 
> 2. Click "See Which TV Stations You Can Get on a Map", then "Start MAPS".
> 
> 
> 3. Enter your address, or your exact latitude and longitude if you know them, and click the "Map this" button. You'll get a map showing your supposed location, and a list of stations.
> 
> 
> 4. If necessary, adjust your location by dragging the marker around on the map. Switch to satellite view and you'll probably be able to see your house.
> 
> 
> 5. Underneath the map, enter the height of your antenna (current or planned).
> 
> 
> 6. Above the map, click the "Make Radar Plot" button. You'll get a table of detailed information about the signal levels at your location. You'll also get a Web address that links to that page. Paste the address here so people can advise you intelligently. (Note that the table does not display your exact location.)



Here is the address for the results

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3a8ec8609d3 


I live on a 2nd story in a 1 bd room apartment my tv is right by the window and the outdoors is brick.


----------



## holl_ands

Those signals are NOT too strong for an indoor, amplified antenna....which will

probably provide better reception....refer to Post #1 for list....


----------



## arxaw

Before buying another antenna, first try relocating the antenna with a longer coax extension. If the coax is hard wired to the antenna, use a barrel splice (available at radioshack) to add a longer length.


----------



## kmueller44




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19463042
> 
> 
> kmueller44, your signal strengths are such that you might also try the indoor antenna I mentioned in the post above this one. Aim it broadside to compass direction 92°. If it doesn't work well, your home's building materials may be blocking good indoor reception, or there could be indoor interference from nearby electronics. Extend the antenna's coax length with a barrel splice & a longer piece of coax, then try different spots in the room to find a reception hot spot.



I haven't purchased one of the cheap Radio Shack antennas yet but I've been working with a Terk TV4 that I've had on another TV for some time (upstairs bedroom). I receive most chanels very well upstairs, but down in my TV room (sub ground level) it's difficult to get KARE 11 which shouldn't be any more difficult than the rest according to my tvfool. I also cannot get KSTP 9 HD (09.1), but SD (09.2) comes in fine. KARE 11 comes in when I move the antenna to the middle of the room, but that location just isn't practical. I did move my wireless router and it did improve other channels but I still struggle with these. Would the Radio Shack antenna be better than this Terk amplified antenna?


Edit:

After reading more of this thread I now realize that Terk tends to be junk and the amplified antenna could possibly be hurting my reception. There's a Radio Shack on my way home that has them in stock, I think I'll just pick one up and give it a shot. So many people have had good results with it, so why not...


----------



## arxaw

It won't hurt to try the budget antenna. You can always return it if it doesn't help.


But your biggest problem may be interference. Try turning off *everything else* in the house except the TV. Shutting off breakers would be best. You need to rule this out before you waste time trying other antennas. If reception improves, turn breakers back on, one at a time, to find the offending device.


Any *"Real"* (not virtual) channels that TVFool lists as 2 thru 13 are in the VHF band. That would include 9 & 11, if those are the "Real" channels being used. Even if the results for your address show them as strong as other signals, that doesn't mean reception will be equal indoors, where VHF is often significantly harder to receive than UHF because VHF doesn't penetrate building exteriors as easily as UHF does. This is often more evident on lower floors.


The budget antenna uses the dipole rods for VHF (the loop is for all the UHF chs). For your particular VHF channels, first try the dipole rods extended only about half length, to more closely tune them to the wavelengths of chs 9 & 11. Try positioning the rods in a wide "V" a narrow "V" and straight vertical.


----------



## kamorro

Ranch house, no basement use, brick outside. I'm looking to purchase an indoor antenna for an old tube TV, as I haven't upgraded to an HDTV. What do you suggest?


----------



## kamorro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kamorro* /forum/post/19493605
> 
> 
> Ranch house, no basement use, brick outside. I'm looking to purchase an indoor antenna for an old tube TV, as I haven't upgraded to an HDTV. What do you suggest?



I have to post 3 times as a new member before attaching a URL...


----------



## kamorro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kamorro* /forum/post/19493613
> 
> 
> I have to post 3 times as a new member before attaching a URL...



My next post will be the URL of my TV Fool Report.


----------



## kamorro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kamorro* /forum/post/19493605
> 
> 
> Ranch house, no basement use, brick outside. I'm looking to purchase an indoor antenna for an old tube TV, as I haven't upgraded to an HDTV. What do you suggest?



Here is my TV Fool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3d554314f6c


----------



## arxaw

Do you have a digital converter box for the analog TV?


----------



## kamorro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19494110
> 
> 
> Do you have a digital converter box for the analog TV?



No I do not, but I can get one. Is that what I'll need to get most of those channels in the "Digital" column? Digital converter boxes don't run too expensive do they? Also, would I need a digital converter box if I bought a cheap new HDTV? I guess I would base my decision on how much the digital converter box costs?


----------



## kamorro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kamorro* /forum/post/19494262
> 
> 
> No I do not, but I can get one. Is that what I'll need to get most of those channels in the "Digital" column? Digital converter boxes don't run too expensive do they? Also, would I need a digital converter box if I bought a cheap new HDTV? I guess I would base my decision on how much the digital converter box costs?



Read up on it and from what I understand I need a digital converter box as long as I'm trying to get free over the air channels through an antenna. So, do you have an inexpensive digital converter box to recommend or are they all pretty much the same? Or do I need a better one for better antenna range? Also, what's an amplified antenna? Found one on newegg.com and is it to increase the strength of another antenna or is it an antenna on its own? And of course, my original question is what would be the best indoor antenna? Sorry, I'm completely new to this.


----------



## arxaw

All new TVs sold in the US have digital tuners, so no converter box needed for them. Just a suitable antenna. Your old tube set will need one to get digital channels shown on your TVFool. Sales of converters to the mass market was short lived because most people who needed one bought one before or right after the shutdown of full-power analog stations. Now, it's a niche market item and most big chains no longer carry them. You can still find converter boxes on eBay. Some good brands are Zenith, Insignia, Apex, Artec, DTVPal and ChannelMaster. Avoid Magnavox & RCA converter boxes. They usually don't work as well as the others brands I listed.


----------



## arxaw

You may be able to get the digital channels shown in green on your TVFool with only an indoor antenna, like the radio shack budget antenna frequently mentioned in this thread, or others that have been mentioned.


For channels listed in yellow, you may need an attic or outdoor antenna. But a basic budget indoor antenna is definitely worth a try, first. The good thing about the RS antenna is, it's easily returnable if you're not pleased with reception.


----------



## faiz_23

Quote:

Originally Posted by *faiz_23* 
Here is the address for the results

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3a8ec8609d3 


I live on a 2nd story in a 1 bd room apartment my tv is right by the window and the outdoors is brick.
 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a37b08cbda5a 


I am in allen, tx off 75 and Mcdermott, I have tried the ant 121

http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT121-Ind.../dp/B00009W3E2 


I have tried the 15-1874 and got like 30 or 31 channels with that. I am wanting to try the outdoor ones but i am north facing balcony. Any other recommendations i tried the amplified rca from lowes Ant 1251 RCA and it got like 27 channels but the amplified really did not help much at all. I was planning on getting a a terk HDTVA but decided to check on here and glad i am getting good knowledge.


I was interested in trying


Antennas Direc DB2

Antennas Direct ClearStream2

Channel Master 4149

Winegard SS-3000

http://cgi.ebay.com/Cornet-Mobile-UH...-/300492545632


----------



## arxaw

You have distant channels in all 3 bands; VHF-LO, VHF-HI & UHF. The first two antennas you linked to are just designed for *UHF*. The second two are indoor only. None of them would be suitable for your weaker channels. I don't know anything about the antenna you linked to, but the picture and description are a bit suspect, like most cheap chinese imports. Perhaps someone who has tried one will post about it.


Can you list the call letters of channels on your TVFool that you are not getting that would like to try and receive?


----------



## kmueller44




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19492567
> 
> 
> It won't hurt to try the budget antenna. You can always return it if it doesn't help.
> 
> 
> But your biggest problem may be interference. Try turning off *everything else* in the house except the TV. Shutting off breakers would be best. You need to rule this out before you waste time trying other antennas. If reception improves, turn breakers back on, one at a time, to find the offending device.
> 
> 
> Any *"Real"* (not virtual) channels that TVFool lists as 2 thru 13 are in the VHF band. That would include 9 & 11, if those are the "Real" channels being used. Even if the results for your address show them as strong as other signals, that doesn't mean reception will be equal indoors, where VHF is often significantly harder to receive than UHF because VHF doesn't penetrate building exteriors as easily as UHF does. This is often more evident on lower floors.
> 
> 
> The budget antenna uses the dipole rods for VHF (the loop is for all the UHF chs). For your particular VHF channels, first try the dipole rods extended only about half length, to more closely tune them to the wavelengths of chs 9 & 11. Try positioning the rods in a wide "V" a narrow "V" and straight vertical.



So I set up the Budget RS antenna and it works. Better than the Terk amplified antenna I was using and a third of the price! It takes some work to get 11 in and channel 9 in HD is near impossible, but that's okay. The "hot spot" seems to be dead center of my living room about 6 feet in the air, lol. But I can get just about everything now with a few adjustments here and there.


Thanks arxaw!


----------



## arxaw

kmueller44, glad it worked for you. With a more little persistence, perhaps you can find a hot spot for those pesky VHF chs 9 & 11. As an alternative to mid-length dipole rods, it won't hurt to try them fully extended for those channels. It _should_ work better with them at half-length which would be tuned more closely to fractional wavelengths of those channels, but when having problematic indoor reception, all dipole lengths and positions should be tried.


Did you try turning off all other devices in your house to rule out interference? VHF chs can be very fragile indoors and often suffer from indoor interference from other electrical/electronic/wireless devices.


----------



## miochza




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19375152
> 
> 
> Your TVFool is such that an amplified antenna may cause more problems than it solves. If I had your TVFool, I would try this specific antenna , aimed SW near a wall or window that faces that general direction. Without knowing what your building is made of, it's impossible to tell if anything will work. Also, your TVFool was not based on your exact address, so it may be incorrect.
> 
> 
> Another good antenna for your TVFool would be this one. It is an outdoor antenna, but small and can be concealed by putting it in the box it came in and spray painting the box.



An update:


I ended up trying the Philips, since it was cheap enough to give it a whirl. It is definitely a step up from the UFO, however it is still really susceptible to multipath interference. I tried mitigating it a bit with reflectors, and have gotten it to an acceptable level.


I REALLY wish I wasn't just renting, and that it was at least a second story apartment. I am fairly limited in what I can do. I wish I could install an attic or rooftop antenna. I believe most of the multipath is the result of the trees along my street, if I had an antenna high enough it would be fine.


On calm days, this setup works nicely. On windy days (like today) the weaker channels macroblock and drop audio intermittently. I might be able to install an outdoor antenna if my landlord gave me permission, but I'm not convinced anything near ground-level would be an improvement. Thanks for your help arxaw.


----------



## Frankie20




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19494374
> 
> 
> Some good brands are Zenith, Insignia, *Apex*, Artec, DTVPal and ChannelMaster. Avoid Magnavox & RCA converter boxes. They usually don't work as well as the others brands I listed.



You problably want to add Apex to your list of converter boxes to avoid, they are known to be very unreliable...


----------



## Rammitinski

The DTVPal can be pretty buggy, too (and the PQ a bit soft). Out of that list, since the Zenith/Insignia can't be obtained new anywhere anymore (the Pal, either, really), I'd recommend the Artec, which is basically a clone of the Zenith, or the Channel Master, which has s-video out and the best, possible PQ.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miochza* /forum/post/19519761
> 
> 
> ...I ended up trying the Philips , since it was cheap enough to give it a whirl. It is definitely a step up from the UFO, however it is still really susceptible to multipath interference.



It is a very directional antenna and should be less susceptible to multipath than the UFO. The antenna may be sitting in a dead spot. Did you try different locations in the room both high & low? UHF reception will sometimes be better on the floor.


----------



## miochza




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19522464
> 
> 
> It is a very directional antenna and should be less susceptible to multipath than the UFO. The antenna may be sitting in a dead spot. Did you try different locations in the room both high & low? UHF reception will sometimes be better on the floor.



I have it up as high as I can right now. Never thought to try the floor, I would think that cars, etc. would have more effect the lower the antenna? I'll try it out lower and see how it goes.


----------



## arxaw

Try a longer piece of coax to get the antenna away from any sources of electrical or wireless interference. Even a TV's components can sometimes interfere with reception.


----------



## jones2289

I think it's time to cut my ties with the cable company. I'm trying to cut some of my costs, and cable tv isn't a necessity. Here is my tvfool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3b756c132f3 


I'm located in Indianapolis, IN, and live in a first floor apartment. The outside of the apartment is brick, and my tv (Pioneer 5020) is in a corner near a large glass patio door. The door faces east, and there is a large tree in the corner of my patio. I've seen several recommendations for a Radio Shack antenna, and was wondering if this would suffice. Does this pick up HD signals, or would I need a more expensive antenna for that? I always had "rabbit ears" on my tv as a kid, but that was before hd signals and the dissapearance of analog channels. Any guidance would be much appreciated.


----------



## arxaw

Your strong local network stations are to the west, according to your TVFool.

The ideal place to have an indoor antenna for you would be near an exterior West facing wall. But since the towers are very close by and strong, you can probably find a sweet spot to place an indoor antenna near the glass door.


You have both VHF & UHF stations and the RS antenna previously mentioned is UHF & VHF, and may be all you need. You certainly do not want to buy an amplified antenna, as it may overload your tuner. Extend the dipole (VHF) rods on the antenna about half length each, to more closely tune the NBC channel in the VHF band. Your CBS station appears to be on two channels - one VHF & one UHF. The UHF loop is not adjustable and is for all the other channels in your area.


There is *NO* such thing as an HDTV or DTV or digital antenna. All you need is a regular *TV* antenna. Those digital, hd, etc. labels are just marketing BS to make you think you need something special for receiving DTV.


Please post back with your reception results or if you have other questions.


----------



## jones2289

Thanks for the reply. I plan on stopping by Radio Shack this weekend and picking up an antenna. I'll definitely post the results as soon as I get it hooked up.


----------



## deltaguy

jones2289,


Since you're going to radio shack, your TVFool makes you a candidate to go rabbit ear-free with this antenna:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062017 

You can see a coax-ready one on page 1 of this thread. Pictured is the bowtie and a matching transformer combined by blue painter's tape. A cardboard box and a pair of scissors can easily create a seat for the bowtie. It's also returnable if it doesn't work. Don't sweat that is says UHF on the package. Good Luck.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/19532042
> 
> 
> You can see a coax-ready bowtie on page 1 of this thread.



dg, I don't see the antenna on page 1 of this thread. Can you link directly to the post?


@jones2289, if you try the UHF bowtie, you will have to obtain a separate 300-75 ohm transformer to connect it to your TV's antenna coax input. Total cost is not much less than the VHF/UHF dipole antenna that comes with a coax & base. However, if signal strength is sufficient, you might be able to just let it dangle off the back of the TV and a base wouldn't be needed.


----------



## deltaguy

Here's EV's bowtie: http://media.photobucket.com/image/b...o/IMG_0023.jpg 


Here's a matching transformer: http://www.summitsource.com/popup_image.php?pID=6656 


You can also make the bowtie coax-friendly with one of these: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062054 With this, you need to add a barrel splice.


As for the seat, get a cardboard box and scissors.

Step 1: cut the top of the box off

Step 2: on one side, cut a space about 5 inches in length, 1 inch wide (this is for the twinlead wire)

Step 3: cut a slit in the top of the box both front and back, maybe 3 or 4 inches

Step 4: slide the bowtie down into the slits at the top of the box

Step 5: receive OTA


----------



## deltaguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by *arxaw* 
dg, I don't see the antenna on page 1 of this thread. Can you link directly to the post?


@jones2289, if you try the UHF bowtie, you will have to obtain a separate 300-75 ohm transformer to connect it to your TV's antenna coax input. Total cost is not much less than the VHF/UHF dipole antenna that comes with a coax & base. However, if signal strength is sufficient, you might be able to just let it dangle off the back of the TV and a base wouldn't be needed.
The object of trying the bowtie is not to let it dangle from the tv. The back of the tv can often kill VHF reception. I believe that the bowtie makes using coax a necessity, unless one has a converter box. If one has to purchase coax, which I hope they don't, they'll likely be looking at a minimum of 10 feet. This is much better than the 4-foot that comes with the RS budget. It's a win/win for the location, location, location rule.


----------



## jlhct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19453209
> 
> 
> That explains it. A friend lives in a concrete block structure and gets no indoor TV or cell reception. Is it possible to try the antenna in your attic, using a barrel splice and long extension coax? Set it on top of a plastic storage box or just a cardboard box to get it off the attic floor.



Hello,


I just wanted to post a follow up just in case it may help others. I brought an RCA ANT806 indoor/outdoor antenna. It did get some channels inside, so I tried installing it right outside my living room above the patio door. It looks like I am getting all of the channels that TVfool says I would receive.


Thanks a lot for all of your help and information!


----------



## smakovits

I am trying to figure out if I need a new antenna or if I would simply be wasting my time.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3b5f32f9caa 


Currently I have this antenna, http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 and it worked well enough to get me channel 19 (WOIO) most of the time, but it would still drop during shows. As a result, I worked last night to move the antenna out of the basement and into the garage, thinking there would be less reflection points. However, all I got was a little stronger channel 19 and a super weak channel 5 (WEWS).


So, I was hoping Radio shack might have a better solution for me that can be located in the Garage or basement for that matter. Otherwise, I was thinking about this unit, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...F8&me=&seller= but I dont know what i can expect, if it would even help. What must one do to improve their signal when they are this close to the tower?


I am running the wire into my Dish STB with no amplification. Thanks


----------



## jones2289

Ok, I went and purchased the Radio Shack $11.99 antenna today. The problem is that I can't access the digital tuner setup through my tv. It is grayed out, and won't let me select it. Evidently the tv is not recognizing the antenna, but I'm not sure why.


----------



## jones2289

I got into the digital tuner setup finally, but it won't pick up any channels. I hooked the antenna up to the tv in my bedroom, which has a west-facing window, and still only picked up 5 channels, all of which were complete static. I'm thinking that either this antenna is junk, or I have absolutely no chance of picking up OTA signals. I would hope it's the first one, especially since I'm located in a fairly large city with plenty of stations close by.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jones2289* /forum/post/19571395
> 
> 
> I got into the digital tuner setup finally, but it won't pick up any channels. I hooked the antenna up to the tv in my bedroom, which has a west-facing window, and still only picked up 5 channels, all of which were complete static. I'm thinking that either this antenna is junk, or I have absolutely no chance of picking up OTA signals. I would hope it's the first one, especially since I'm located in a fairly large city with plenty of stations close by.



Unless your tube tv has a digital tuner, or you have a converter box, the bedroom set has zero chance of receiving digital signals. I'd re-read the set up instructions for the other set.


----------



## Mike-On

Does anybody know what antenna should I use in a travel trailer? I have a digital TV and the antenna from the trailer but I can not have more than one channel (and that very bad quality). I'm close to Port Huron Michigan, but in Canada.


----------



## arxaw

Do you travel with the trailer or is it stationary?


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jones2289* /forum/post/19571230
> 
> 
> Ok, I went and purchased the Radio Shack $11.99 antenna today. The problem is that I can't access the digital tuner setup through my tv. It is grayed out, and won't let me select it. Evidently the tv is not recognizing the antenna, but I'm not sure why.



What is your TV, BTW? Maybe we can help you figure out the menu.


----------



## partsman_ba




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smakovits* /forum/post/19569712
> 
> 
> I am trying to figure out if I need a new antenna or if I would simply be wasting my time.
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3b5f32f9caa
> 
> 
> Currently I have this antenna, http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 and it worked well enough to get me channel 19 (WOIO) most of the time, but it would still drop during shows. As a result, I worked last night to move the antenna out of the basement and into the garage, thinking there would be less reflection points. However, all I got was a little stronger channel 19 and a super weak channel 5 (WEWS).
> 
> 
> So, I was hoping Radio shack might have a better solution for me that can be located in the Garage or basement for that matter. Otherwise, I was thinking about this unit, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...F8&me=&seller= but I dont know what i can expect, if it would even help. What must one do to improve their signal when they are this close to the tower?
> 
> 
> I am running the wire into my Dish STB with no amplification. Thanks



The short answer is, go up more. Your basement is only letting VHF in, probably on a bounce. Not sure why your garage is doing the same.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smakovits* /forum/post/19569712
> 
> 
> I am trying to figure out if I need a new antenna or if I would simply be wasting my time.
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3b5f32f9caa
> 
> 
> Currently I have this antenna, http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 and it worked well enough to get me channel 19 (WOIO) most of the time, but it would still drop during shows. As a result, I worked last night to move the antenna out of the basement and into the garage, thinking there would be less reflection points. However, all I got was a little stronger channel 19 and a super weak channel 5 (WEWS).
> 
> 
> So, I was hoping Radio shack might have a better solution for me that can be located in the Garage or basement for that matter. Otherwise, I was thinking about this unit, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...F8&me=&seller= but I dont know what i can expect, if it would even help. What must one do to improve their signal when they are this close to the tower?
> 
> 
> I am running the wire into my Dish STB with no amplification. Thanks



You're 2 to 3 miles from your transmitters. you should be able to pick up those stations with a paper clip, even in a basement.


Try a different receiver (and the paper clip).


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smakovits* /forum/post/19569712
> 
> 
> I am trying to figure out if I need a new antenna or if I would simply be wasting my time.
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3b5f32f9caa
> 
> 
> Currently I have this antenna, http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 and it worked well enough to get me channel 19 (WOIO) most of the time, but it would still drop during shows. As a result, I worked last night to move the antenna out of the basement and into the garage, thinking there would be less reflection points. However, all I got was a little stronger channel 19 and a super weak channel 5 (WEWS).
> 
> 
> So, I was hoping Radio shack might have a better solution for me that can be located in the Garage or basement for that matter. Otherwise, I was thinking about this unit, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...F8&me=&seller= but I dont know what i can expect, if it would even help. What must one do to improve their signal when they are this close to the tower?
> 
> 
> I am running the wire into my Dish STB with no amplification. Thanks



You're only 2 miles from the transmitters and may be getting signal overload. OTA tuners in certain Dish STBs are particularly vulnerable to this problem. Try a signal attenuator to lower the signal getting to your TV.
http://search.solidsignal.com/?q=attenuator 

Or, try a paper clip or twist tie stuck in the coax port.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jones2289* /forum/post/19571230
> 
> 
> Ok, I went and purchased the Radio Shack $11.99 antenna today. The problem is that I can't access the digital tuner setup through my tv. It is grayed out, and won't let me select it. Evidently the tv is not recognizing the antenna, but I'm not sure why.



If your TV has more than one coax port, make sure you're connected to the right one. Then, run digital antenna channels auto-scan again in the TV channel setup menu.


What brand is the TV?


----------



## develvjd-

OTA only now for a year or so and fortunate to be so close to Indy. I get good reception with about any set top antenna on the first floor.


Three questions though:

1) I'm adding a theater to the basement. Will I be able to pick anything up down there?

2) Could I install an antenna in the attic, hook into the existing coax wiring in the house and receive a solid signal at any cable outlet? Would I need to amplify to do that?

3) I do use cable internet, would that interfere?


Thanks in advance!


BTW, here I am: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3d7eb4c0f13


----------



## Jim1348

How far is the most distant station that you wish to receive?


----------



## develvjd-

Well, I'll take all I can get reliably at a reasonable price, but the Indy channels really have all I need, all under 8 miles.


I just want a robust system that never pixelates or cuts out (which occasionally happens now) and keep as many components as possible hidden from view. That's why I was thinking about an antenna in the attic hooked into the house coax if that's all it takes.


----------



## Jim1348




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *develvjd-* /forum/post/19585672
> 
> 
> Well, I'll take all I can get reliably at a reasonable price, but the Indy channels really have all I need, all under 8 miles.
> 
> 
> I just want a robust system that never pixelates or cuts out (which occasionally happens now) and keep as many components as possible hidden from view. That's why I was thinking about an antenna in the attic hooked into the house coax if that's all it takes.



The official "company line" is no antennas in the attic because of multi-path distortion interference. However, I have an antenna in the attic above my attached garage and I am 20 miles from the transmitter. Folks have found that antennas and digital TV (ATSC) "ain't your Grampas TV", if you will excuse the analogy. Having said that, if you want to do it, try it and see what happens. I did considerable experimenting until I could find the "sweet spot" where I could get solid coverage on all of the broadcasters from the Shoreview MN towers. You may also want to pick carefully which particular antenna you select for an indoor attic installation. I went with one of the older (now Discontinued & not available) Channel Master CM4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF TV Antennas. I selected that at the time knowing that two of my broadcasters who had been VHF, but were going UHF during the ATSC switch and would be coming back to VHF! I had read that the CM4228 might not be as narrow for directional purposes AND would be okay on RF 9 & 11 after those broadcasters returned to RF 9 & 11.


Don't buy an amplifier for that distance unless you absolutely have to. And even then, buy it locally, save the box and receipt in case it has to be returned or doesn't work out.


Use good quality RG6 everywhere, even in the short patch cords. Don't use ANY RG59.


Post your results here.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *develvjd-* /forum/post/19585672
> 
> 
> Well, I'll take all I can get reliably at a reasonable price, but the Indy channels really have all I need, all under 8 miles.
> 
> 
> I just want a robust system that never pixelates or cuts out (which occasionally happens now) and keep as many components as possible hidden from view. That's why I was thinking about an antenna in the attic hooked into the house coax if that's all it takes.



Start simple. Try your existing antenna or this rabbit ear/loop antenna in the attic. If that is unreliable, this antenna should work well. It's not expensive and comes with its own mounting bracket. Aim it roughly S/SE.


Attic reception may not work well if you have a tile or metal roof or reflective insulation anywhere in the attic.


----------



## develvjd-

So I can just hook it into the home coax wiring and every cable outlet is juiced up? Does the signal strength weaken at splitters, etc?


----------



## arxaw

How many splits?


Also, be aware that you can *not* combine your OTA antenna signal with the same coax the cable company has any type of service on.


----------



## develvjd-




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19591334
> 
> 
> How many splits?
> 
> 
> Also, be aware that you can *not* combine your OTA antenna signal with the same coax the cable company has any type of service on.



Yeah, the cable company has broadband on this coax. I guess I'm running new.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: *jones2289* finally figured out his menus and reports receiving many OTA DTV channels:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=19572267


----------



## deltaguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by *develvjd-* 
Yeah, the cable company has broadband on this coax. I guess I'm running new.
If a simple indoor antenna works, the amount of new coax could be limited. If the basement is a no go, an outdoor solution could be employed as well. Great height might not be needed outdoors.


----------



## develvjd-




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/19594177
> 
> 
> If a simple indoor antenna works, the amount of new coax could be limited. If the basement is a no go, an outdoor solution could be employed as well. Great height might not be needed outdoors.



Am I safe to assume as high as possible, outside the house, mounted on the corner of the house facing the towers you want to pick up is always ideal?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *develvjd-* /forum/post/19595467
> 
> 
> Am I safe to assume as high as possible, outside the house, mounted on the corner of the house facing the towers you want to pick up is always ideal?



No, I'm afraid you can't. Both indoors and outdoors, the best location for an antenna is determined by reception at that particular location. For example, if raising the antenna upwards forces it to look through a lot of trees, it may make reception worse. Trial and error is the best way to know.


If you only want the stations in green per TVFool, outdoors should be better than indoors. I've seen a picture of an antenna only inches above a lawn that was doing great. What indoor antennas have you tried so far?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *develvjd-* /forum/post/19595467
> 
> 
> Am I safe to assume as high as possible, outside the house, mounted on the corner of the house facing the towers you want to pick up is always ideal?



In your case, with such strong signals at your location, it _probably_ won't matter.


----------



## develvjd-




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/19596255
> 
> 
> No, I'm afraid you can't. Both indoors and outdoors, the best location for an antenna is determined by reception at that particular location. For example, if raising the antenna upwards forces it to look through a lot of trees, it may make reception worse. Trial and error is the best way to know.
> 
> 
> If you only want the stations in green per TVFool, outdoors should be better than indoors. I've seen a picture of an antenna only inches above a lawn that was doing great. What indoor antennas have you tried so far?



Started with this one: http://www.amazon.com/Audiovox-Acces.../dp/B002PNDG4W and only encountered pixelation sporadically on a couple of the HD Channels. Upgraded to this little amplified Terk: http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified...1574208&sr=1-1 and it's even better now, but I still see some pixelation every once in a while on a couple HD channels. Maybe one out of every 10 recorded shows will have brief occurrences of minor pixelation.


At 6-8 miles from the towers and without much obvious geographical interference, I'm looking for perfection. Is this unrealistic?


----------



## arxaw

"Perfection" with an amplified antenna at a distance of only 6-8 miles from the towers is probably unrealistic. The amplified antenna may be making reception worse at that close distance.


----------



## develvjd-




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19598089
> 
> 
> "Perfection" with an amplified antenna at a distance of only 6-8 miles from the towers is probably unrealistic. The amplified antenna may be making reception worse at that close distance.



OK, so you'd recommend this one if I try mounting something outside?

http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...1381197&sr=8-1


----------



## arxaw

It should work.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *develvjd-* /forum/post/19598037
> 
> 
> Started with this one: http://www.amazon.com/Audiovox-Acces.../dp/B002PNDG4W and only encountered pixelation sporadically on a couple of the HD Channels. Upgraded to this little amplified Terk: http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified...1574208&sr=1-1 and it's even better now, but I still see some pixelation every once in a while on a couple HD channels. Maybe one out of every 10 recorded shows will have brief occurrences of minor pixelation.
> 
> 
> At 6-8 miles from the towers and without much obvious geographical interference, I'm looking for perfection. Is this unrealistic?



Have you tried the Terk without the amplifier? That might yield better results. What channels have you had problems with?


I agree about the 751 working. You might be able to get away with a smaller, more esoteric, outdoor as well.


----------



## arxaw

The ANT751 is small.


----------



## develvjd-




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/19599109
> 
> 
> You might be able to get away with a smaller, more esoteric, outdoor as well.



Like this one? http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2


----------



## arxaw

No.


See: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19601531 




.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *develvjd-* /forum/post/19599920
> 
> 
> Like this one? http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2



I don't have experience in the outdoor antenna field, so I can't say about that. That looks more like what I saw working close to a lawn though. You might ask in the Indianapolis thread, or create a thread for outdoor advice. Finding out what is working in your area is a good idea.


----------



## arxaw

It probably won't work well for your VHF channels. Rule of thumb: most antennas with lots of plastic on them don't work well for OTA television.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19601535
> 
> 
> Rule of thumb: most antennas with lots of plastic on them don't work well for OTA television.



Except for the ClearStream series. They will outperform anything of comparable size on UHF, and a ClearStream 2 is probably the best indoor-friendly antenna available (even though it is designed for outdoor use).

The other plastic-encased models, like the "pizza boxes" and the one at Monoprice in the above link, are no better than a rabbit-ear loop or a clip-on bow-tie, IMHO. The big difference is that the ClearStreams (except the C1) have a reflector.


----------



## arxaw

However, the CS antennas are UHF are not very good for VHF.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19613607
> 
> 
> However, the CS antennas are UHF are not very good for VHF.



The C4 is okay with very strong VHF-high, but yeah, the rest are basically useless. I have heard of some folks making a loop in the coax just below the antenna, and getting somewhat effective VHF results.

I've given up on trying to get VHF signals with UHF antennas. The homemade VHF-high Yagis on Holland's image event site work great, though. For indoor use, you can build one inside a shallow box frame, and then stretch fabric around the frame and secure it with upolstery staples. Attach the box to the ceiling with the antenna pointed towards the transmitters. It would look like a "fabric pizza box", about 3 feet square, that goes with the room's decor.


----------



## DawnSun

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, across the bay up in the hills with Sutro Tower in plain view (14.3 crow-fly miles away). I'm using a family castoff Magnavox MANT300 "SmartAmplifier" indoor antenna. I hooked it up last year in place of the testy, ancient roof antenna and kept using it, because it performed better than the roof antenna (believe it or not).


But . . . I still have problems, especially in bad weather and especially with the two VHF channels ("real" channels 7 and 12 = virtual channels 7.1 and 11.1). Those were also the worst with the roof antenna, too.


Here is my TVFool signal analysis: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a38df8c557d8 


As you see, I have line-of-sight (LOS) views of the sources of all the channels I want to receive (green), although I wouldn't complain if I also had channels 23 (22.1), 36 (36.1), 50 (54.1), and 9 (6.1).


Although this is an amplified antenna, I have the amplifier-gain control knob turned to OFF. When I try to turn it on, I have worse reception on almost every channel and channel 12 (11.1) drops from 80% to zero on the TV set's signal strength meter.


The problem is that the antenna is very sensitive to direction. If it is moved slightly (say by dusting it), I can lose the sensitive stations (esp. the VHF stations). Also, in rainy or windy weather, I lose some signals.


The antenna is situated off the floor, on the southwest corner of the house, next to a window from which the broadcast towers can be seen. I have a Panasonic Plasma HDTV purchased in December 2007.

*Question 1:* Do I compromise my reception by using an "amplified" antenna _even if_ I don't turn the amplifier part on? (I usually have the power adapter disconnected completely from the antenna.)

*Question 2:* If I tried replacing this indoor antenna, what models would work best in my location? (Yes, I know I should be able to "use a paper clip," as posters are fond of saying. Yet, I obviously need more. I studied EV's lists on page one and, frankly, was overwhelmed. Perhaps that means it doesn't matter what I choose.)


----------



## JimboG

Please excuse the following platitudes, but they really are meant with the best intent:


If it doesn't look as ugly as an old over the air antenna, it probably won't perform as well as an old over the air antenna.


Most of the antennae that have lots of plastic bits or include a cheap amplifier really aren't very good antennae to begin with. The RCA ANT751 (allegedly made by Winegard) is a pretty darn solid over the air antenna for its size.


For optimal high band VHF reception at


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DawnSun* /forum/post/19616244
> 
> 
> ...If I tried replacing this indoor antenna, what models would work best in my location?



Impossible to tell what model would work best at any indoor location. But which indoor antenna would I try if I had your TVFool? This one .


If it doesn't work well, turn off/unplug *everything* else in the house, except the TV, to rule out electrical interference from anything in the house.


If it still doesn't work well, try adding an attenuator to the antenna.

If it still doesn't work well, try a better ATSC tuner than the one in the Panasonic.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19601535
> 
> 
> It probably won't work well for your VHF channels. Rule of thumb: most antennas with lots of plastic on them don't work well for OTA television.



I wouldn't go on the roof or to the attic with one of those, but simply outdoors, it wouldn't hurt to try. It needs to be returnable though. That Indy location may be a reception slam dunk.


Since I explained a seat for the bowtie on the last page, here's how to use a bowtie for vhf: Have the bowtie and twinlead configured in a "T", with the bowtie at the top. This yields two wires of about two feet in length in a "II" below the bowtie. Aim it the direction that works best, even if it isn't "correct." Don't allow the twinlead to touch metal.


Higher is better and parallel with windows works most often here. However, in one room, the two vhf stations from Walnut Grove require different aims. A correct aim for uhf doesn't ensure a correct vhf aim. A correct location (sweet spot) for uhf is NOT necessarily correct for vhf as well.


----------



## Emerlin

Fools Report - http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...da32ad596e23e2 


FWIW - we are only trying to receive the signals within 25 miles. The top 4 in the report above.


I have to use an indoor antenna at my Dad's apartment. We are third floor so thats good. I can run with wire to a closet shelf behind where the TV is located so I could put up something that is unattractive. I also have a good bit of space to work with. I could maybe install a "bar" style antenna up high.


I was thinking a bow tie like the DB2 would work good, but he has a VHF channel so that will not work well will right?


Any recommendations? - Thanks in advance.


----------



## Jim1348

Well, if I read that correctly WHBF is sort of good news/bad news.


The good news is it is less than 10 miles away.


The bad news is it is a low VHF on RF Channel 4.


My advice is to buy antenna locally, save the receipt, and verify that they have a very liberal return policy in case it doesn't work out. If you like the DB2, maybe you can find a local retailer that carries it. Some people are having good results with UHF antennas that also have built in VHF rabbit ears.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

WHBF is # 5 on the list and isn't one he asked about (first four on the list).


The ClearStream 2 is about the best indoor UHF antenna I've found, but it will most likely leave you out in the cold for your lone high-VHF signal.


FWIW, I haven't found anything better than rabbit ears for indoor VHF except for a ClearStream C5 loop. Unfortunately, it's both a bit large for indoors and is expensive.


----------



## deltaguy

Rabbit ears can be used in a bar for vhf. "_._"

While I never saw anyone employ rabbit ears in this way growing up, it does work. Good Luck.


----------



## Rammitinski

How about Jointenna-ing a pair of rabbit ears to the DB2 for that one VHF channel?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/19711006
> 
> 
> How about Jointenna-ing a pair of rabbit ears to the DB2 for that one VHF channel?



A U/V diplexer (UVSJ) is what is needed.



That's a completely logical and workable solution provided the dipole is adequate. Given that TVFool forecast, I'm not terribly optimistic on any of them, UHF or VHF.


----------



## Emerlin

Anyone?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Emerlin* /forum/post/19709355
> 
> 
> Fools Report - http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...da32ad596e23e2
> 
> 
> FWIW - we are only trying to receive the signals within 25 miles. The top 4 in the report above.
> 
> 
> I have to use an indoor antenna at my Dad's apartment. We are third floor so thats good. I can run with wire to a closet shelf behind where the TV is located so I could put up something that is unattractive. I also have a good bit of space to work with. I could maybe install a "bar" style antenna up high.
> 
> 
> I was thinking a bow tie like the DB2 would work good, but he has a VHF channel so that will not work well will right?
> 
> 
> Any recommendations? - Thanks in advance.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Emerlin* /forum/post/19716631
> 
> 
> Anyone?



You could try the rabbit ears first. The dipoles could then be added to later for UHF. Your address might not be yielding a good TVFool report if it is a large structure(s). Your elevation might also make a difference.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/19717282
> 
> 
> You could try the rabbit ears first. The dipoles could then be added to later for UHF. Your address might not be yielding a good TVFool report if it is a large structure(s). Your elevation might also make a difference.



The rabbit ears ARE the dipoles....


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/19717428
> 
> 
> The rabbit ears ARE the dipoles....



Yes.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Quote:

Originally Posted by *deltaguy* 
Yes.
..and they're for VHF, not UHF as suggested above.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/19717282
> 
> 
> You could try the rabbit ears first. The dipoles could then be added to later for UHF. Your address might not be yielding a good TVFool report if it is a large structure(s). Your elevation might also make a difference.



Emerlin, did you understand that?


Getting VHF first is a good idea because lots of folks, who go for UHF first, wind up with an antenna in a location that's not good for VHF. All your stations are from Rockford, so VHF first seems logical to me. Add the DB2 later.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Since the overwhelming majority of full-service stations are UHF (roughly 75%), the numbers (in most cities) suggest that UHF will net the most programming. Rockford is no exception with only one VHF station.


If Emerlin's dad's apartment has an east-facing window, he has a chance. If not, the odds are poor since that location is behind a hill that is to his east (west-facing slope).


----------



## Emerlin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/19725397
> 
> 
> Since the overwhelming majority of full-service stations are UHF (roughly 75%), the numbers (in most cities) suggest that UHF will net the most programming. Rockford is no exception with only one VHF station.
> 
> 
> If Emerlin's dad's apartment has an east-facing window, he has a chance. If not, the odds are poor since that location is behind a hill that is to his east (west-facing slope).



Thanks for the response - I am some what confused. I understand the VHF may be harder to get, but why would I try to get just one band? FWIW - I wrongly assumed the DB2 was VHF/UHF antenna.


I did get some channel master rabbit ears and got 2 of the 4 channels reliably. The other 2 pixelated badly or did not come in. It was not mounted as high as possible, so I am thinking with a better antenna and higher placement I could be ok.


I do not think we are behind a hill of any notable size, at least as it relates to line of sight to the towers.


So - is there a recommendation on a better antenna for both bands? I could easily mount a bar style antenna in the top of the closet. Would that be a better choice?


Thanks for the help. I am heading there this weekend and would like to get this wrapped up for the football games!


Cheers


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Emerlin* /forum/post/19732057
> 
> 
> Thanks for the response - I am some what confused. I understand the VHF may be harder to get, but why would I try to get just one band? FWIW - I wrongly assumed the DB2 was VHF/UHF antenna.
> 
> 
> I did get some channel master rabbit ears and got 2 of the 4 channels reliably. The other 2 pixelated badly or did not come in. It was not mounted as high as possible, so I am thinking with a better antenna and higher placement I could be ok.
> 
> 
> I do not think we are behind a hill of any notable size, at least as it relates to line of sight to the towers.
> 
> 
> So - is there a recommendation on a better antenna for both bands? I could easily mount a bar style antenna in the top of the closet. Would that be a better choice?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help. I am heading there this weekend and would like to get this wrapped up for the football games!
> 
> 
> Cheers



If you have line of sight to Rockford, your TVFool chart will show the channels you're trying to get can likely be had with the returnable Radio Shack budget antenna for around $10.


If the rabbit ears got rf 13 and a UHF Rockford channel, this may be all you need. The rabbit ears + DB2 recommendation was based on obstacles being in the way. Good Luck.


----------



## LithOTA

Emerlin, if you run out of ideas for getting WREX, try this-
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagi...lpp085.eagle_s 


If you are handy, you could build an indoor version pretty easily. I am 42 miles east of WREX, and there's a big ridge in the way, but this homemade antenna is getting it very reliably. It might also get WQRF, WIFR, and WTVO, even though they are UHF (mine does).


----------



## Muufer

Radio Shack always seems to have antenna's on sale. I think I paid 22.00 dollars and installed inside the attic with cable running to my dish receiver.


My choice was:


RadioShack® U-75R UHF Antenna

Model:

U-75R | Catalog #: 15-2160


----------



## holl_ands

*Emerlin:* Since indoor (esp. VHF) reception is so hit and miss, it's difficult to recommend just

ONE antenna choice...you'll just have to try some of the simple, inexpensive antennas

and work your way up to bigger, more expensive solutions...preferably OUTDOORS.


Your UHF stations only have 11.7-16.4 dB of NM (Noise Margin), which is adjusted upwards

by the amount of antenna gain (DB-2 is typ. 8+ dB) and downwards by the amount of indoor loss

(typ. 13 +/- 7 dB). That doesn't leave very much margin against multipath, et. al. and you should

consider the use an AMPLIFIED UHF antenna, such as the *Antennas Direct CS-2* or (better) a
*DIY M4 Super-4-Bay with CM7777 Preamp*. If you're lucky, Ch13 might also work & perhaps even Ch4.

But it is more likely you will need a separate antenna for Ch4.....


VHF Ch4 (69 MHz) also suffers from the 2-Edge Diffraction propagation path, with only 8.1 dB NM.

Indoor loss at VHF frequencies in MODERN structures is known even less well than at UHF.

It is difficult to get much gain at Lo-VHF frequencies and most Rabbit Ears will be (very?) NEGATIVE.

So even with fully extended Rabbit Ears, Ch4 might not come in very well....

*DIY Ch4 Folded Dipole* (better than Rabbit Ears) has a gain of 2.1 dBi and would be *81.5-in wide*:
http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=15313 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops 

*DIY Ch4 Circular Loop* has a couple more dB of Gain and would be *68-in diameter*,

such as rescaling the fol. Hi-VHF (198 MHz) loop by the factor of 198/69:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhfloop 

I recommend RG-59 coax (used for long audio/video cables), where the outer braid

shield becomes a FAT antenna element to provide the requisite bandwidth. The

outer insulation does NOT need to be stripped off at VHF frequencies....
*

DIY Ch4 Square Loop* is a rescale of the Hi-VHF (20-in) loop by factor 198/69 to *57.4-in per side*.

Use either RG-58 or FAT metal rods or even metallized tape.


Use a *HLSJ* Lo-VHF/Hi-VHF+UHF Combiner to sum the signals from the two antennas.


BTW: The 5-Element antenna above is for Hi-VHF (Ch7-13)...if you need one...not Ch4.


----------



## Emerlin

Thanks to all who helped. I am happy to report success!


I installed an Winegard stealth antenna (forgot the model) in the top of a closet on a makeshift mount. We scanned the channels and everything came in with no blocking. We spend Saturday watching HD football!


I am certainly no antenna guru but this seemed to work well and fit my application.


Cheers all.


----------



## jplee3

Hey all,


I've been having issues getting a reliable signal with my Eagle Aspen DB2.


My tvfool data is here:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...3cf4f15748165e 


I live on the first floor of a two story condo unit and am trying to use the DB2 indoors. I'm guessing outdoors would be better of course. But if I can get away with keeping everything indoors I would prefer it. I obviously can't mount an antenna on the roof either. The DB2 picks up a few channels OK but often cuts in and out - if the people upstairs are moving around in the general area it will further distort the picture. It's super annoying. At first I placed the antenna up 'high' indoors on top of a bookshelf. That didn't seem to help much. I've moved the antenna to another room closer to a window but that doesn't seem to help. There are walls/obstructions generally in directions it needs to point in and at least one wall in that direction is shared










I do, however, have the option of placing the antenna out in my backyard. I don't know if there will be any pure line of site but I guess it's worth a shot? I have an market/patio umbrella where I'm thinking I could attach the DB2 and point it in the general direction. It would be high enough to partly have line of site over the wall/fence and would be facing the of the street almost adjacently.


Can anyone help with recommending a better antenna or figuring out the best placement of what I have?


I was considering building one of those huge antennas with 4-6 coat hangers, plywood/old baking sheet, and foil. But my wife wasn't too ecstatic. Especially since we don't have an attic to hide it in







Also, as a n00b, I bought a 4-port signal booster/amplifier which is currently hooked up to the antenna. I think it's slightly helped but obviously has not made a big enough difference to prevent distortion or blank channels. Not sure if this is going to help in the future or if I should just set it aside.


----------



## deltaguy

jplee3,


Have you tried the DB2 without the signal booster? If it can get the signal to a single set satisfactorily, that would be a start. In your area, Fox, ABC, and KCAL are all VHF channels. Plain rabbit ears would likely be better for those. Multiple antennas is a possibility.


----------



## kamorro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19494374
> 
> 
> All new TVs sold in the US have digital tuners, so no converter box needed for them. Just a suitable antenna. Your old tube set will need one to get digital channels shown on your TVFool. Sales of converters to the mass market was short lived because most people who needed one bought one before or right after the shutdown of full-power analog stations. Now, it's a niche market item and most big chains no longer carry them. You can still find converter boxes on eBay. Some good brands are Zenith, Insignia, Apex, Artec, DTVPal and ChannelMaster. Avoid Magnavox & RCA converter boxes. They usually don't work as well as the others brands I listed.



Can you tell me if all of the Zenith, Insignia, Apex, Artec, DTVPal and ChannelMaster converter boxes will display in HD as well as on my tube TV? I bought the Radio Shack antenna and it says "HDTV reception requires HDTV/ATSC tuner and display." I have an older HDTV that would need a converter too and I was wondering is there were specific models of the converter boxes I needed to look at on Ebay for HD reception or if they all are HD converter boxes?


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kamorro* /forum/post/19871528
> 
> 
> Can you tell me if all of the Zenith, Insignia, Apex, Artec, DTVPal and ChannelMaster converter boxes will display in HD as well as on my tube TV?



The government-subsidized converter boxes (all the ones you name fall into this category) display only SD, not HD. They can *receive* HD channels, but they *downconvert* the picture to SD for display.


If you want HD, you need an HD tuner. See the sticky post "Official AVS HDTV STB Synopsis" at the top of this forum for a list. Only a handful of models are currently sold by their manufacturers, but there are many discontinued models that you might find on Ebay etc.


----------



## LithOTA

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Emerlin*
Thanks to all who helped. I am happy to report success!


I installed an Winegard stealth antenna (forgot the model) in the top of a closet on a makeshift mount. We scanned the channels and everything came in with no blocking. We spend Saturday watching HD football!


I am certainly no antenna guru but this seemed to work well and fit my application.


Cheers all.
That's good news! Is 13 working ok?

I know (because I get them) that Rockford's suite of only 7 subchannels isn't much to watch. I think WHBF-4 is vastly overstated by TV fool- folks in the QC can barely get it. But 3 and 27 out of Madison are worth going for, as you would get an extra CBS and ABC, plus TVW, RTV, and This. Madison's towers are huge and on really high ground, so the signals really travel well.


----------



## WolfTracker

Hello all.


Looking for a new indoor antenna. We are currently using the ANT1050XV. I am having a heck of a time finding a good placement and want to try something else.


Here is the tvfool report. Seeing that, I don't expect much luck outside the green band.


http: // www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d3cf45a1b5f9d1f 


Location is a 2nd floor bedroom, west side of the house.


Any recommendations?


----------



## rabbit73

*WolfTracker*:


Welcome to the forum. Here is an active link for your tvfool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...3cf45a1b5f9d1f 


Your present antenna:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Digita...r-DTV/10542272 


Many of your signals are quite strong, but they need to go through your house to get to the bedroom. What type of construction is the building? Have you tried placing your antenna in a window (without metal sceen or low-e glass) that faces the transmitters?


----------



## WolfTracker

Thank you Rabbit73.


We have a 2 story colonial, stick built, drywall with latex paint. Upper floor of house is vinyl on the outside.


At your suggestion, I used a splitter and some more coax and got the antenna positioned in front of the sliding glass window. There is a metal screen door, but that was the as far as I could run with those pieces. Signal meter jumped from low 30% to 50%. Did a channel rescan and was able to get in the solid green band all but 30.1. Will need to get another piece of coax just a little longer, 5-6' so I can position the cable and converter box back where they go. Also need to get a barrel connector, so I can patch the coax together.


Thanks for the help.


WolfTracker


----------



## rabbit73

You're welcome, *WolfTracker*. Glad to hear the good news that you are on the right track to improvement.


Best regards,

rabbit


----------



## arxaw

Wolftracker,

If the vinyl siding has foil backed insulation behind it (likely), that and your poor antenna are probably the bulk of your reception problems. Outdoor or near an Easterly facing window would be better antenna locations.


You might want to try this antenna, which nearly always works better than those flat things, and it won't break the bank: RS #15-1874. They also have barrel splices. The antenna is returnable, if it doesn't help. But from what I've seen, they usually work better than the model antenna you have.


----------



## gordonkale

Quick question for everyone: I just hooked the basic radio shack $12 antenna up to a new tv and am getting a few good channels, but not all of the ones tvfool says I should be getting (according to it, I've got 17 channels in the green). I assume it's because I live relatively low in an old apartment building, so I'm just wondering what exactly I can do to boost my reception? I don't want to be running cables all over the place to put this antenna out the window, and am totally fine spending anything less than about a hundred bucks for an indoor antenna, preferably something I don't have to be aiming around a lot. I know every case is different, but just in general, what do people recommend for picking up a strong signal indoors in a region pretty close to a number of towers?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gordonkale* /forum/post/19935767
> 
> 
> Quick question for everyone: I just hooked the basic radio shack $12 antenna up to a new tv and am getting a few good channels, but not all of the ones tvfool says I should be getting (according to it, I've got 17 channels in the green). I assume it's because I live relatively low in an old apartment building, so I'm just wondering what exactly I can do to boost my reception? I don't want to be running cables all over the place to put this antenna out the window, and am totally fine spending anything less than about a hundred bucks for an indoor antenna, preferably something I don't have to be aiming around a lot. I know every case is different, but just in general, what do people recommend for picking up a strong signal indoors in a region pretty close to a number of towers?



I wouldn't put that antenna outdoors. However, with the 4' cable that is included in the box, location-wise, the antenna is not being given an ample chance to succeed. Location can improve reception, around 10db I've read on the forums. It's worth checking out. Some coax and a barrel splice can give the antenna a fighting chance for reception. Big bucks don't guarantee big reception. Good Luck.


----------



## gordonkale

Yeah, that's totally fair. Essentially the antenna is just sitting on the floor next to the tv, so I've pretty much handicapped it to begin with. Part of the problem, though, is that I live in a tiny apartment and to have this antenna get substantially away from the tv it'll mean running cable directly through my already limited living space. Basically I'm just being overly picky.


----------



## deltaguy

I've several indoor setups here. They are not all optimized. Running cable is a real problem.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gordonkale* /forum/post/19935767
> 
> 
> Quick question for everyone: I just hooked the basic radio shack $12 antenna up to a new tv and am getting a few good channels, but not all of the ones tvfool says I should be getting (according to it, I've got 17 channels in the green). I assume it's because I live relatively low in an old apartment building, so I'm just wondering what exactly I can do to boost my reception? I don't want to be running cables all over the place to put this antenna out the window, and am totally fine spending anything less than about a hundred bucks for an indoor antenna, preferably something I don't have to be aiming around a lot. I know every case is different, but just in general, what do people recommend for picking up a strong signal indoors in a region pretty close to a number of towers?



Being in an old building has nothing to do with it. In fact, newer buildings with radiant barriers and low-E windows make reception more difficult than in some older, less energy efficient buildings. However, stone & brick can attenuate signals from reaching your antenna, particularly VHF band, which doesn't go through walls very well.


It would be helpful to post a link to a TVFool report for your specific address. Your address won't show on the results page. For channels in green and for picking up a strong signal indoors, I have consistently had the best results with the $12 antenna you already have. There is no "magic" indoor antenna. Your problems are likely indoor multipath (bouncing signals) and/or interference from other electronic devices in your home. Even your television should be suspect as a potential source of interference. What you need to do is find a reception hot spot for the antenna. Location is often the most important variable indoors. But with the short coax that comes on most antennas, people often try just a spot by the TV and then give up, or go waste money on crappy gadgets that often works worse than the antenna they already have.


I echo deltaguy's suggestion; get a barrel splice and extend the coax on the good antenna you already have and try to find a reception hot spot in your space. Windows facing the transmitter are sometimes best, but sometimes just relocating the antenna only a foot or two from its current location or higher/lower can make a world of difference in indoor reception. Just like a cell phone in a bad signal area.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

When it comes to old buildings, be on the lookout for plaster (rather than drywall) interior walls. Many of the plaster application techniques included a metal mesh similar to chicken wire which, as we know, makes a great Faraday shield.


----------



## arxaw

Same for stucco. Both can be indoor signal killers.


----------



## topperdude

Hi,


I have been experimenting to see what kind of OTA reception we can reliably get at my home. Here is the TVFool report.


Whether or not we would switch full time to OTA would depend on certain criteria we would like to meet:

1. Would like to get atleast channels upto KIMT







.

2. Would be nice to get KYIN or even WHLA since KSMQ only broadcasts in 480i instead of 720p/1080i. I am guessing the difference in resolution might be more noticeable/annoying when we switch from our current 32" HDTV to a bigger (46" or 50") HDTV in the living room at some point in the near future.

3. Prefer buying antennas locally so they can be returned easily if it doesnt work out.


In case it helps with recommendations, our house is on top of a hill (elevation - roughly 1100ft) with no major obstructions (trees, buildings, etc) except for the next door neighbor to the south. The neighbors' house is single story and ours is two story. The house is oriented such that while watching TV, we are facing north with a drape covered 4' x 6' 2-pane low-e coated glass window to the right/east (confirmed this with a compass recently). From this sitting position, the garage, and attic above it, would be behind and to the left, in the southwest corner of the house. The building material is vinyl siding with asphalt shingles.


What I have tried so far:

I own a Silver Sensor and placing it on top of the entertainment center (roughly 78" above ground) in the living room, I am able to reliably get pretty much all the UHF channels (except KIMT) anywhere on top of the entertainment center. KIMT does come in reliably if the Silver Sensor is moved to certain spots on the ent center. Perhaps not surprisingly though, the Silver Sensor does not pick up any VHF channels. So, per EV's reviews earlier in this thread, I stopped by Radioshack and picked up this VHF dipole as well as this UHF bowtie and combined the signals using this combiner . The VHF dipole is not even completely extended (only one "section" extended) and the UHF bowtie does need to be "propped up" a bit but I am able to get all channels upto KIMT.


Based on this information, I am hoping the experts here can offer some suggestions/best educated guesses for the following - We would like to feed the signal to the distribution box/splitter in the northwest corner of the basement and then to ALL rooms of the house:


1. One option I was thinking could be to move the antenna to the basement. I understand the basement is generally not the best location for antennas but wonder if our basement, with a walkout and east facing windows, might get adequate signals? Would the Silver Sensor coupled with the VHF dipole have better gain/reception than the UHF bowtie plus VHF dipole combo. I also have an older Channel Master 3402 amplifier if it might help the signal before feeding it to the existing "distribution box/splitter". If the general feedback ends up being that there's little or no chance of getting atleast the channels upto KIMT, then I might just look at alternative locations without trying to setup antenna in the basement.


2. One alternative to basement would be to install (or get help to install) the antenna in the attic above the garage. We already have 4 RG6 runs from this location to the basement utility room/distribution box area when we built the house (for any future satellite TV installations). For this attic location, I wonder if any combination of the existing antennas (Silver Sensor or the two RS antennas) coupled with a CM7777 might be sufficient to get KYIN stations or even just the channels up to KIMT? Would an antenna like RCA ANT751, recommended by EV several times here as well as dtvusaforum, installed in the garage attic and coupled with CM 7777 (or equivalent pre-amp) be able to receive KYIN reliably?


Any additional recommendations for specific indoor/attic mounted antennas (CM 2016, CM 4221, etc) and/or pre-amps to get channels through atleast KIMT and upto KYIN would be appreciated as well.


Thanks for reading and any input,

-Topper


----------



## deltaguy

topperdude,


Channels up to KIMT is likely with the results you've had so far. Getting up to WHLA would require as much UHF antenna as you can handle size-wise for an attempt. There are Winegard dealers in Byron and Minneapolis if you need a brick and mortar vendor. I'd call to see about their return policy.


----------



## topperdude

Thanks for the response!


I have already called the Winegard dealer in Byron couple times (once few weeks back and then again last week) but they have not been very responsive so far. I was told they could swing by on Friday of last week so I took time off from work but was told on Friday morning they were going to be busy with another job in the morning and will call me in the afternoon and try to swing by later in the day or on Saturday to do a "site survey". I have yet to hear back from them







.


In any case, after my previous post, I spent some time re-visiting the PBS websites, their schedules, content, broadcast resolution and believe we can live without getting the LaCrosse (Wxxx) and higher channels from the TV Fool report I posted previously.


So now we are just trying to get KYIN in addition to all the other channels we currently get AND be able to distribute/split the signal to all the TVs in the house (rather than directly hooking up the antenna to the living room TV as is currently the case).


Thanks for any input,

-Topper


----------



## deltaguy

topperdude,


The 751 should be enough antenna, so it's definitely worth a try. I can't help with distribution. I'd still try aiming for your stations in red on the TVFool chart. The charts aren't always perfect and, since you're on top of a hill, that would mean the results are being based on a lower elevation. Good Luck.


----------



## arxaw

Topperdude,

Forget the basement and also indoors, for predictable reception. You have low-e glass and vinyl siding, which often has foil-backed insulation behind it. Both are signal killers. The attic _may_ work, if your aim will be through the asphalt roof shingles and not vinyl on the ends of the house.


Since you are wanting to buy locally, I would try this outdoor antenna from RadioShack. It would work outdoors and _may_ work in your attic, depending on your building materials and orientation of the antenna.


Install a signal amp in the attic, between the antenna and distribution box. Try the one you already have, first. Or this one . It is less likely to suffer from strong signal overload than the CM7777, which is designed for distant, weak signal areas. If your current amp has an FM trap, leave it enabled.


----------



## eudora

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e07c6187196580 


Guys need some help... I am staying in an apartment, 3rd floor.

Balcony and window facing south west. So I used my old indoor antenna and was unable to receive the major channels here..










Went online and bought this
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...&s=electronics 

Only to realize how big this really is.. (compared to my indoor one of course)


At first I thought it was easy to install till I read about the grounding part which I have no idea how to do on my apartment building. I tested it indoor on my table and was able to receive some of the channels if I point the antenna in the right direction. Strange thing is I can get CBS and ABC really well and clear but not NBC..










So now I have a few options...


1) Try to figure out how to install the antenna on my balcony with grounding

2) Return it and get a better indoor antenna.

3) Decide it is impossible for antenna to work and just get cable.. *sad*


Any one with advise on either options? I am leaning towards getting a better indoor antenna (my previous one is the RCA flatbed type)


Thanks!


----------



## arxaw

You have probably purchased RCA's worst (the flat one) and best (ANT751) antennas. The ANT751 is actually made by Winegard and is very good.


The bad news is, if the ANT751 does not work well indoors at your current location, the odds of any smaller indoor style antenna working are not too good. There are no magic antennas, what you need is a better location to put one (outdoors).


Before you go to the trouble of trying to install anything permanently on your balcony, try the following, just to see if the 751 will work there:

Get a fairly large (slightly smaller than the length/width of the 751) cardboard box or other non-metallic box. A big plastic tote storage box will work.

Place the box, open end up, on your balcony.

Carefully position the ANT751 on top of the open box with the elements sticking over the edges of the box.

Aim it as closely as possible toward the TV towers of interest.

Connect the antenna to your TV with RG6 coax cable.

Rescan for local channels.

If all of your channels do not come in, try different directions. Your TVFool indicates that the towers are in multiple directions.


Report back with your results.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

I've found the ANT751 to be pretty good on high-VHF but barely mediocre on UHF. If you have the space available, I'd suggest adding a ClearStream 2 combined with the 751 using a UVSJ. For UHF reception, I haven't found a better antenna for indoors usage.


All of your major stations transmit from the southwest with only "specialty" and translator stations from the south-east. Focusing the effort on the southwest will probably suffice.


----------



## philherz

Quote:

Originally Posted by *arxaw* 
You have probably purchased RCA's worst (the flat one) and best (ANT751) antennas. The ANT751 is actually made by Winegard and is very good.


The bad news is, if the ANT751 does not work well indoors at your current location, the odds of any smaller indoor style antenna working are not too good. There are no magic antennas, what you need is a better location to put one (outdoors).


Before you go to the trouble of trying to install anything permanently on your balcony, try the following, just to see if the 751 will work there:

Get a fairly large (slightly smaller than the length/width of the 751) cardboard box or other non-metallic box. A big plastic tote storage box will work.

Place the box, open end up, on your balcony.

Carefully position the ANT751 on top of the open box with the elements sticking over the edges of the box.

Aim it as closely as possible toward the TV towers of interest.

Connect the antenna to your TV with RG6 coax cable.

Rescan for local channels.

If all of your channels do not come in, try different directions. Your TVFool indicates that the towers are in multiple directions.


Report back with your results.
Just curious...what's the purpose of the open box???


----------



## arxaw

To balance the antenna on top of, for temporary aiming. There may be a slightly higher risk of shorting out the antenna phase lines with the antenna, if it's sitting on a flat surface. No electrical hazard of course, but it may kill reception.


----------



## eudora

Quote:

Originally Posted by *arxaw* 
You have probably purchased RCA's worst (the flat one) and best (ANT751) antennas. The ANT751 is actually made by Winegard and is very good.


The bad news is, if the ANT751 does not work well indoors at your current location, the odds of any smaller indoor style antenna working are not too good. There are no magic antennas, what you need is a better location to put one (outdoors).


Before you go to the trouble of trying to install anything permanently on your balcony, try the following, just to see if the 751 will work there:

Get a fairly large (slightly smaller than the length/width of the 751) cardboard box or other non-metallic box. A big plastic tote storage box will work.

Place the box, open end up, on your balcony.

Carefully position the ANT751 on top of the open box with the elements sticking over the edges of the box.

Aim it as closely as possible toward the TV towers of interest.

Connect the antenna to your TV with RG6 coax cable.

Rescan for local channels.

If all of your channels do not come in, try different directions. Your TVFool indicates that the towers are in multiple directions.


Report back with your results.
Just pull the antenna out to the balcony, not much difference from it being indoors. I still get the CBS ABC. no luck with NBC... But I guess I can live with just those 2 channels (plus ION CW and FOX)


I think I will go to radioshack and try out some indoor antenna to see if it would work too?


----------



## philherz

Quote:

Originally Posted by *eudora* 
I think I will go to radioshack and try out some indoor antenna to see if it would work too?
Can't hurt with their liberal return policy. I'm no expert, but a few years back I grabbed 3 for my parents' TV. To my surprise, the middle priced one did best, by far......


----------



## arxaw

eudora,

Try rescanning your TV for digital channels, with the antenna aimed W/SW.


If no luck, you might try a better indoor antenna than what you have. RS has a

great return policy if it doesn't work, so you have nothing to lose except time. If you try another indoor antenna, connect a longer coax to it, using a barrel splice. Using trial and error, move it around the room a foot or two at a time. You may luck out and find a hot spot for all your channels.


But I don't have too much hope for indoor, if your current outdoor antenna didn't work. A bigger outdoor antenna may be needed.


.


----------



## eudora




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19998544
> 
> 
> eudora,
> 
> Try rescanning your TV for digital channels, with the antenna aimed W/SW.
> 
> 
> If no luck, you might try a better indoor antenna than what you have. RS has a
> 
> great return policy if it doesn't work, so you have nothing to lose except time. If you try another indoor antenna, connect a longer coax to it, using a barrel splice. Using trial and error, move it around the room a foot or two at a time. You may luck out and find a hot spot for all your channels.
> 
> 
> But I don't have too much hope for indoor, if your current outdoor antenna didn't work. A bigger outdoor antenna may be needed.
> 
> 
> .



You know what happened, I got a long cable and connected to my flat RCA indoor antenna (that stupid thing only had 6 ft cable) and moving it around, I found the angle and height that it has to be to be able to get ABC! So now the indoor antenna is able to give me ABC and CBS... I lost CW but I dont really watch that anyway. So I am going to return the outdoor antenna and go buy a longer coaxial cable to tidy up the house a bit. (Wife is screaming at the mess I made..







)


Lesson I learnt is not to just depend on the auto scanner, but just manually adjust the antenna till the channel signal quality improve.. Sometimes they just skip the channel...


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *eudora* /forum/post/20000101
> 
> 
> Lesson I learnt is not to just depend on the auto scanner, but just manually adjust the antenna till the channel signal quality improve.. Sometimes they just skip the channel...



Sometimes it helps to scan individual channels, if the tuner allows that function. Some tuners allow you to scan a range of channels, and you could just enter a range of one in order to grab one that is not locking on a full scan. Some tuners will let you enter the "real channel" number directly, and it will then look there for a signal (but don't enter the "virtual" number).

Moving the antenna around is a great idea. I can take some work to find the spot that gets all of the channels, but usually there is a sweet spot somewhere, even indoors. Lots of "trial and error".


----------



## deltaguy

One of the final things I did in 2010 was to eliminate rabbit ears from one of the indoor setups here. This was the only room where reception of rf 7 (KGO) was possible. Why did I do it? From experience testing in another room, I was guessing that uhf reception would be better without the rabbit ears. So far, I've been right.


Going in, I had assumed adding the rabbit ears to a bowtie would improve uhf reception. After all, rabbit ears can receive some uhf signal. More signal means better reception. Unfortunately, just like outdoors, putting two antennas together can create multipath. I believe that's the case here.


----------



## Jim1348

I have a friend in an apartment that needs an antenna for a fairly short period of time in ZIP 55420.


Would either of these be good enough for a short period of time, like a week or two? I know that KMSP-9 is RF Channel 9 (VHF) and these antennas do not work real well for VHF, but KMSP-9 simulcasts an SD on UHF. That leaves KARE on RF Channel 11.




http://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Slim-P...tenna/14554619 

http://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Digita...r-DTV/10542272 


Also, how would something like this compare to the other two antennas?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...odsInSession=1 


http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Stations.aspx 


Address Location Results

The address you entered was located at the Address level.


If you did not enter your full street address along with your city, state or ZIP Code, please return to the Address Entry page and enter your full address.


If you did enter your full street address, you may wish to change the location of your address manually by clicking on the View Street Level Map button below and then moving it on the map. This will automatically recalculate the Stations list and antenna recommendations.


To enter a different address, click here.


Stations and Antenna Types


TV reception is determined by the size and type of antenna and the direction in which it is pointed. To determine the right antenna, use the color coded Antenna Type to select the channels that you wish to view. Antenna types are color coded according to the size and type of antenna needed for reception. The list is arranged in order of ease of reception, with the stations requiring the smallest multidirectional antenna at the top, to those requiring the largest directional antennas at the bottom.


Use the "Compass Orientation" listed below to point your antenna or rotor system for the channels you wish to receive. Please note that "Compass Orientation" is referenced to magnetic North.


The "RF Channel" column is provided to facilitate custom antenna design for special circumstances.




Show All Stations Show Digital Stations Only Show Analog Stations Only



DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City, State Live

Date Compass

Heading Miles

From RF

Channel

* yellow

uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL, MN 23° 17.5 35

* yellow

uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS, MN 23° 17.5 45

* yellow

uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS, MN 23° 17.5 22

* yellow

uhf K25IA-LD 25.1 TBN MINNEAPOLIS, MN 3° 10.0 25

* yellow

vhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS, MN 26° 17.6 9

* yellow

uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS, MN 23° 17.5 32

* yellow

uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS, MN 26° 17.6 29

* yellow

vhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS, MN 23° 17.5 11

* yellow

uhf KTCI-DT 2.3 PBS ST. PAUL, MN 26° 17.6 23

* yellow

uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL, MN 26° 17.6 34

lt green

uhf WDMI-LP 62 DAY MINNEAPOLIS, MN 3° 10.0 62

blue

vhf WUMN-CA 13 UNI MINNEAPOLIS, MN 4° 9.8 13

* violet

uhf KPXM-DT 41.1 ION ST. CLOUD, MN 330° 43.3 40

Note:

The above listing is a conservative prediction of stations received. Depending on the specifics of your installation, you may be able to receive stations that do not appear in this list.

DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City, State Live

Date Compass

Heading Miles

From RF

Channel

lt green

uhf WDMI-LP 62 DAY MINNEAPOLIS, MN 3° 10.0 62

blue

vhf WUMN-CA 13 UNI MINNEAPOLIS, MN 4° 9.8 13

Note:

The above listing is a conservative prediction of stations received. Depending on the specifics of your installation, you may be able to receive stations that do not appear in this list.

DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City, State Live

Date Compass

Heading Miles

From RF

Channel

* yellow

uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL, MN 23° 17.5 35

* yellow

uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS, MN 23° 17.5 45

* yellow

uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS, MN 23° 17.5 22

* yellow

uhf K25IA-LD 25.1 TBN MINNEAPOLIS, MN 3° 10.0 25

* yellow

vhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS, MN 26° 17.6 9

* yellow

uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS, MN 23° 17.5 32

* yellow

uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS, MN 26° 17.6 29

* yellow

vhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS, MN 23° 17.5 11

* yellow

uhf KTCI-DT 2.3 PBS ST. PAUL, MN 26° 17.6 23

* yellow

uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL, MN 26° 17.6 34

* violet

uhf KPXM-DT 41.1 ION ST. CLOUD, MN 330° 43.3 40

Note:

The above listing is a conservative prediction of stations received. Depending on the specifics of your installation, you may be able to receive stations that do not appear in this list.


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e44d473c7e0b9 


TV Signal Analysis Results


Here are the results for your location. The transmitter database was last updated on February 21, 2011. For more information about these plots and how to interpret them, please check out the Signal Analysis FAQ.


If you would like to share these results with others, this page can be referenced as:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e44d473c7e0b9 


To ask for help from other TV Fool members, post this link in a thread HERE.


To start over, click here.

Current

database: All channels (save image)

Only Digital (save image)

Only Analog (save image)

These reports show what should be on the air now according to the latest FCC database.

Pending*

applications

included: All channels (save image)

Only Digital (save image)

Only Analog (save image)

*These are speculative reports that include pending applications filed with the FCC. This lets you see the effect of planned upcoming transmitter changes, but note that things may change by the time the FCC finishes processing these applications.


HINT: You can see additional details about each transmitter by clicking on them in the table below.


If you notice any errors or omissions in the database, please report them HERE so that they can be corrected in future runs.


The Signal Analysis Report lists the broadcasters in your area, ranked from strongest to weakest, according to 3D propagation modeling of the location and height (optional) that you entered. The background color of each transmitter in the table is color coded as follows:


Background color



Estimated signal strength


Green



An indoor "set-top" antenna is probably sufficient to pick up these channels


Yellow



An attic-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level and above


Red



A roof-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level and above


Grey



These channels are very weak and will most likely require extreme measures to try and pick them up


Please understand that this is a simulation and can only be treated as a rough approximation. Reception at your location is affected by many factors such as multipath, antenna gain, receiver sensitivity, buildings, and trees - which are not taken into account. Your mileage may vary.


For additional details, go here.


----------



## arxaw

Forget the flat antennas, they are basically junk. If you want something that should work well for that TVFool report (assuming it was for address level and not just zip code), get this specific budget RS antenna, model# 15-1874.


Extend the dipole rods about halfway (not full extended) and aim it N/NE.


----------



## Jim1348

My friend Matt ended up with a Channel Master CM-4040. It sounds like it is working out pretty well for him _except_ on KARE-11, which is VHF. (Or should I point out actual RF Channel 11 *NOT* simply virtual Channel 11?) I guess that is no surprise.


As a side note, I am just wondering if anybody has compared the Zenith Silver Sensor side by side with a CM-4040? Are they essentially equivalent to one another? (Hmm, I wonder if anybody makes essentially a Silver Sensor with VHF rabbit ear dipoles!)


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim1348* /forum/post/20064623
> 
> 
> My friend Matt ended up with a Channel Master CM-4040. It sounds like it is working out pretty well for him _except_ on KARE-11, which is VHF. (Or should I point out actual RF Channel 11 *NOT* simply virtual Channel 11?) I guess that is no surprise.
> 
> 
> As a side note, I am just wondering if anybody has compared the Zenith Silver Sensor side by side with a CM-4040? Are they essentially equivalent to one another? (Hmm, I wonder if anybody makes essentially a Silver Sensor with VHF rabbit ear dipoles!)



The Terk TVi has rabbit ears. The single classic bowtie is as good a uhf antenna that can also receive strong vhf signals. It's available at radio shack and can be returned if it doesn't work. For best vhf results with the classic bowtie, allow the twinlead to breathe in a upright orientation. Good Luck.


----------



## Jim1348

Thank you for the reply. In retrospect, maybe it is too bad he didn't get the TERK HD-TVi Indoor HDTV Antenna. Although, in this case I guess my friend just needs it for a short period of time while his apartment switches something with the cable TV system. He did note that the Over The Air picture is much sharper than his picture via cable. I can only speculate that he gets analog cable and is comparing it to a channel that is at least 480i (or better)!


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim1348* /forum/post/20064757
> 
> 
> Thank you for the reply. In retrospect, maybe it is too bad he didn't get the TERK HD-TVi Indoor HDTV Antenna. Although, in this case I guess my friend just needs it for a short period of time while his apartment switches something with the cable TV system. He did note that the Over The Air picture is much sharper than his picture via cable. I can only speculate that he gets analog cable and is comparing it to a channel that is at least 480i (or better)!



Over the air picture is often superior to picture from cable and satellite providers. This goes for both HD and SD programming. OTA is definitely better here.


----------



## Jim1348

Has anybody here tried something like this as an indoor DTV antenna?

http://www.ccrane.com/antennas/fm-an...t-antenna.aspx


----------



## arxaw

It's probably a good, but overpriced *FM* radio antenna, that might work OK for some VHF TV channels, and even some UHF, if you have really strong signals at your location. But it's not tuned for TV bands.


----------



## holl_ands

And costs 2 to 3 times as much as an inexpensive set of RabbitEars.....


----------



## topperdude

Here's an update since my previous posts . Based on feedback I received to my last post I decided to see if I could receive KYIN from a room on the second floor (since the bedroom is roughly the same height and NE direction as the garage attic). Hooked up the Silver Sensor to this portable TV .


Did NOT get KYIN but was pleasantly surprized to see the Vizio tune in to (KQEG-CA and even KTCA) with just the Silver Sensor. I am guessing KYIN might not be coming in since there are some houses within few blocks on the southside of the house that may be blocking an already weak signal from KYIN - so only option might be to go outside/roof (which is not an option as noted in my previous post







). However, if I could reliably get the PBS channels from Minneapolis area, I can live without KYIN. Encouraged by the fact that the Silver Sensor was picking up the Minneapolis PBS channel (KTCA), I picked up a ClearStream2 and placed it as shown in the pictures attached. Here's a list of channels it picked up from the TV fool and how strong the signals are (unfortunately the Vizio does not have a signal strength meter so dont have exact numbers on signal strength):


KTCA - Solid

KIMT - Solid

WCCO - Solid

KSTP - Some pixelation

KAAL - Solid

KMSP - Solid (This is only the SD simultcast on UHF)

KTTC - Pixelation (Solid if RG6 cable connecting TV and antenna is on the table as shown in picture instead of tucked behind the table)

KSMQ - Solid

EWTN - Rarely (but was quite solid last Saturday night when I ran TEST1/TEST2 described below)

WUCW - Solid

WHWC - Rarely

WFTC - Usually solid (occasional pixelation - bit more than KSTP)

KPXM - Rarely

KSTC - Solid

KXLT - Solid


These results have been consistent since Feb 25, including during the snowfall that dumped almost 3 inches between last night into today morning.


Not having a signal strength meter (e.g. DIGIAIR) or even signal strength indicator in the Vizio, I ran some additional tests with the antenna placed in the same location to try to get an idea of how strong the signals from Minneapolis area might be:


Disconnected the cable TV signal feeding the 8-way splitter in the basement, which in turn feeds the signal to the rest of house. Hooked up the RG6 from antenna on the second floor to the RG6 socket in the wall in that room.


Test1: Connected the other end of this RG6 cable (guessing roughly 45-50 feet) as input to the 8-way splitter. Connected the RG6 that runs between the splitter's output to the living room TV (roughly 30 feet) to see what channels I could still get. Was still able to tune to the local channels (KIMT, KAAL, KTTC, KSMQ, KXLT) but none of the other channels listed above from Minneapolis area.


Test2: Instead of feeding the signal from antenna to the splitter, I connected the other end of the (45-50foot) RG6 from the bedroom to the Vizio in the basement. With this test, the Vizio was able to tune into most of the same channels listed above, except the Minneapolis channels were highly pixelated and unwatchable.


Based on these results, I am guessing I might need to add a pre-amp of some sort to avoid degradaing the signal from Minneapolis channels to the point where they may be unwatchable in any of the rooms. Would appreciate feedback on which pre-amps might work best in this situation. I should note that the RG6 that is already wired in the garage attic might be roughly 65ft or so and the longest RG6 run after splitter to the southeast bedroom would be roughly 65-70ft as well


With the antenna pointed at the towers as shown in the picture, I understand the signal might be reliable since it has to only go through the window and not shingles as the case will be when installed in the garage attic. So last night, while it was snowing outside, I walked around the room with the antenna in one hand and TV in another to see how far I could go from the window before signal became unwatachable. I could go around 7 feet away and still get KTCA pretty solid.


I also walked to one of the innermost rooms in the house with the antenna in one hand and TV in the other and was still able to get KAAL, KSMQ, KXLT and KTTC (some pixelation).


Based on this information, would appreciate suggestions/feedback/next steps to reliably get channels listed as Solid above (incl KTTC) in the attic antenna:

1. Pre-amp to maintain signal strength through the RG6 cables and splitters (CM7777, AP8275 or some other)?

2. As mentioned above, I am guessing the signal coming into the (windowless) attic might be weaker than the signal with the antenna pointed at towers through the window as pictured. How much weaker might the signal be in the attic (through shingles, not Vinyl).

3. I read somewhere that pointing through shingles in the attic roof would have less signal loss compared to pointing through Vinyl siding - Is this true?

4. Better single antenna solution (CM4228HD since it has some Hi-VHF gain for getting KTTC?) to compensate for possible additional signal loss in attic?

5. To help me set my expectations and since I understand that water degrades signal quality, how much might the signal from Minneapolis stations degrade during heavy rain/snow and/or if the roof has foot or so of snow during winter?


Thanks for reading and any input.

-Topper


----------



## rabbit73

*topperdude*:


I read your post above, your previous post, and looked at your tvfool report, and will try to answer your questions. The best answer so far was given to you by *arxaw*:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19969765
> 
> 
> Topperdude,
> 
> Forget the basement and also indoors, for predictable reception. You have low-e glass and vinyl siding, which often has foil-backed insulation behind it. Both are signal killers. The attic _may_ work, if your aim will be through the asphalt roof shingles and not vinyl on the ends of the house.
> 
> 
> Since you are wanting to buy locally, I would try this outdoor antenna from RadioShack. It would work outdoors and _may_ work in your attic, depending on your building materials and orientation of the antenna.
> 
> 
> Install a signal amp in the attic, between the antenna and distribution box. Try the one you already have, first. Or this one . It is less likely to suffer from strong signal overload than the CM7777, which is designed for distant, weak signal areas. If your current amp has an FM trap, leave it enabled.



Since the signal attenuation caused by different types of construction can vary a whole lot, you really need to make some comparative signal measurements yourself to find out how much improvement your changes make.


I looked at the manual for your 7" Vizio TV. It looks like a good quality piece of equipment, but it's too bad that it doesn't have a signal strength indicator.


There certainly is a need for one when finding the best antenna location. You need to buy or borrow a TV or CECB that has a relative signal strength indicator to get the final answers that you need. For troubleshooting antenna problems I have a Sadelco signal level meter (SLM), a SONY KDL22L5000 TV that has a diagnostics screen that gives signal strength (one dB steps), SNR, and errors, and an Apex DT502 CECB that gives signal strength (3/4 dB steps) and signal quality. I also have a Centronics ZAT 502HD that has the same tuner as in the Apex with a similar signal strength display (douglas-b; mine wasn't as good!).


When using the percent signal strength scale of a TV or CECB, it is important to stay on the linear portion of the curve to make comparisons. It wouldn't be helpful if two antennas both measured 80 because the signal strength scale had maxed out! If this happens, you only need to insert an inexpensive attenuator to make a valid comparison.


Attachment No. 1 shows the Signal Diagnostics Screen for my SONY KDL22L5000. Attachment No. 2 shows the relationship between the signal strength scale and the input signal in dBmV. The useful range of measurement for the SONY is 79 to 55, which is about -3.9 dBmV to -30.9 dBmV, or 27dB. Using the same units as a tvfool report (Signal Pwr in dBm), that is equivalent to -52.7 dBm to -79.7 dBm (the conversion factor is 48.8).


The useful measurement range for the signal strength scale is much less than the total operating range (dynamic range) of the tuner because the signal strength scale is derived from the AGC (automatic gain control) circuit. The purpose of the AGC is to make the tuner less sensitive for very strong signals and make it more sensitive for weak signals to increase the dynamic range, but it does have limits.


The useful measurement range for my Apex DT502 is 85 to 38, +3.1 dBmV to -30.9 dBmV, about 34 dB (-45.7 to -79.7 dBm).


To put those numbers in perspective for you, I quote from the NTIA Converter Box Information Sheet for Manufacturers:


> Quote:
> 8. RF Dynamic Range (Sensitivity)
> 
> Equipment shall achieve a bit error rate (BER) in the transport stream of no worse than 3x10-6 for input RF signal levels directly to the tuner from -83 dBm to -5 dBm over the tuning range. Subjective video/audio assessment methodologies could be used to comply with the bit error rate requirement.1 Test conditions are for a single RF channel input with no noise or channel impairment. Refer to ATSC A/74 Section 4.1 for further guidance. (Note the upper limit specified here is different than that in A/74 4.1).



That says the CECB must be able to receive a signal as weak as -83 dBm without pixelation and be able to receive a signal as strong as -5 dBm without overload. The full text is here:
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/DTVmanufacturers.pdf 


And now, to answer your questions:


1. You do need a preamp, like the CM7777, in the attic to amplify the signal before it goes down to the splitter. The long coax and splitter are causing a lot of loss; 6 dB per 100 ft. for the coax and about 10 dB for the 8-way splitter. The power supply should be located just before the splitter. I doubt that your strongest local signal will overload the preamp input (because of attic attenuation), unless there is a very strong local FM station. First try the CS2 into the combined input to see if KTTC is strong enough. If not, then change the 7777 internal switch to separate and connect the CS2 to the UHF input and connect a VHF antenna to the VHF input.


An alternative would be what *arxaw* suggested: connect a VHF-hi & UHF combo antenna like the HBU22 to the combined input of the 7777.


2. & 3. It is difficult to predict the attenuation caused by the attic, which is why you need to make some measurements.


4. If you need to replace the CS2 with another UHF antenna, I would go with the CM4221HD based on my experiments and what I have read on the forum by our neighbors in Canada . The 4221HD would connect to the UHF input and the VHF input would be connected to a VHF antenna as in answer number 1.


The original 4228 and the 4228HD are both UHF antennas, but the 4228 was better at picking up some VHF-hi channels than the present 4228HD. Also, both versions are more critical to aim (narrower horiz beamwidth) than the 4221 or 4221HD, and the gain of the 4221HD is comparable to the 4228HD because of the losses from the poor way that the two 4-bays are combined in the 4228HD.


5. Again, like 2 & 3, you don't know until you measure it.


The signals in your tvfool report are listed in order of decreasing signal strength. The signals for KIMT and below will be difficult to receive with consistent high quality; 2Edge and Tropo signals are affected the the terrain between you and the transmitter and weather conditions. The fact that you were able to get solid reception of some Tropo signals can not be counted on to be reliable. Your antennas must be aimed directly at the transmitters to have the best results for your weaker signals.


Because of the nature of digital signals, for those in your list that you have called Solid, it is difficult to know how far they are above the ''digital cliff" without measurement, where pixelation, picture freeze, and finally dropout occur. After some testing you will be able to know how strong a signal you need for Solid reception.


A CASE HISTORY:

Your situation reminds me of my last job for a friend who was out-of-work and needed to drop cable, which had been connected to a 4-way splitter at the outside front of the house, with the four coax feeds going to the rear of the house. He had erected an OTA antenna at the rear of the house, ran the coax to the input of the 4-way splitter up front, and then ran the coax back to the rear of the house to his Maganvox CECB and analog TV.


He was only getting one signal that had pixelation at times, and asked for my help.


I measured his weak signal at the input of the CECB; it was about -35 dBmV (-84 dBm). I then measured the signal at the input of the 4-way splitter; it was about -22 dBmV (-71 dBm). I told him that the 4-way splitter and all that coax were causing a lot of loss and they must go. He wasn't too happy about that because he wanted to feed more than one set. I told him that he needed a preamp at the antenna and it was necessary to get a good signal to one set first, and then later install a splitter inside after the preamp power supply (injector) to feed another set.


We installed a CM7777 at the antenna and removed the 4-way splitter and extra coax. The original lone channel came up to about +3 dBmV (-46 dBm). He is happy now because he gets many channels from Norfolk, and even some from Richmond.

END OF CASE HISTORY


Please let us know how it works out for you.


Best regards,

rabbit


----------



## txemsdoc

I'm looking for advice in perhaps not the best of circumstances....


First, a link to my TV Fool report...
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7d92bb04b7c1d6 


I'm on the northeast corner of a building downtown, on the 8th floor. I can not do an external antenna. I have no ceiling I can access. I can mount something to the wall the tv is mounted on. That wall is the west side of my office, but there's some 20 offices between mine and the west side of the building.


I'm looking for NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX and PBS primarily.


I bought a cheaper flat RCA antenna ... RCA 1450. It gives me FOX and NBC only (well, if you don't count the religious and hispanic stations). I'm not using the amplifier.


Any suggestions for another antenna which would be more likely to improve reception?



Thanks!

Chris


----------



## topperdude

rabbit73 - Thanks much for not only reading my posts but also for the detailed and very helpful answer. It is the help from experts that have replied previously (arxaw, deltaguy, yourself and local experts in another forum) as well as all the helpful information on websites (such as Ken Nist's hdtvprimer, dtvusaforum, antennahacks just to name a few) that keeps me motivated in my quest to figure out what channels we can reliably receive at our home.


One of the challenges living in Rochester (MN) is being able to find retail outlets where I can purchase the popular antennas (e.g. 4228hd), pre-amplifiers (CM 7777 etc) to see whether or not they would work well for us.


In any case, after your last post, I started looking for ANY pre-amp to supplement the CS2 and see how much of a difference it might make. While it may not be a 7777, I did find this RCA preamp at a local Menards. I am not sure who is the OEM manufacturer for these but it has similar features to the channel master or winegard preamps (i.e. choice of separate or combined input as well as switchable FM trap), although the published gains are not as high as the 7777 (closer to 7778). Figuring I couldnt lose much, I brought it home and hooked it up to the CS2 last Friday.


I also recalled, thanks to the reference to CECB in your last post, that I had a couple of those (DTT901) sitting in my basement as well. While DTT901 does not have a signal meter like the Apex DT502, the DTT901 does have a signal bar that shows the level as red, green and higher than that (see attached images). I then repeated the tests listed in my last post, but instead of connecting the RG6 to the TV, I connected the RG6 to the DTT901 and then the output of the DTT901 to the TV using regular composite cable.


With the preamp connected to the CS2, the results were quite a bit more encouraging than my previous post. I was able to get ALL the channels listed as SOLID in my previous post as well as KSTP, KTTC without any issues from any outlet in the house (including the outlet farthest from the splitter - a good 60-70feet away). This setup was tested not only at night (when I understand refraction(?) could help make signals a bit stronger but throughout the day. I spent the weekend watching NCAA in different rooms at different times of the day on the Minneapolis stations.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/20126744
> 
> 
> The signals in your tvfool report are listed in order of decreasing signal strength. The signals for KIMT and below will be difficult to receive with consistent high quality; 2Edge and Tropo signals are affected the the terrain between you and the transmitter and weather conditions. The fact that you were able to get solid reception of some Tropo signals can not be counted on to be reliable. Your antennas must be aimed directly at the transmitters to have the best results for your weaker signals.
> 
> 
> Because of the nature of digital signals, for those in your list that you have called Solid, it is difficult to know how far they are above the ''digital cliff" without measurement, where pixelation, picture freeze, and finally dropout occur. After some testing you will be able to know how strong a signal you need for Solid reception.



I should note that even before I added the preamp, all the tests I had done since Feb 25 were done on different days and at different/random times of the day (6-8am, 10-12pm, 3-5pm, 7-9pm and 11pm-2am). Also each time prior to the test, I had checked this site to ensure there was no Tropo Ducting going on (Today is the first time I can recall seeing some tropo forecast for our neck of the woods since I started experimenting with the CS2 on Feb 25). The results were consistent with what I had reported in my previous post. After adding the RCA preamp, the results were even better as noted in the previous paragraph of this post.


I have attached some images to give an idea of the signal strength observed during testing over the weekend. I have tried to name the files so they are self-explanatory. The ones for the living room TV are with preamp and after going through splitter in basement as well as another 30 feet or so of RG6 from splitter to Living Room outlet.


Also, I should note that while I do not have a picture of it, when I fed the signal from the CS2 + preamp (located on the second floor) directly to the DTT901 (in the basement) without going through the splitter, the DTT901 was also able to tune in to KARE, although the signal was not strong enough to be watchable. This was, however, encouraging since I had never received KARE and did not expect to receive it since (if I understand correctly) it is transmitted on VHF.


Based on the above results:

Would the CS2 with an appropriate preamp (either the RCA or 7777 or a winegard model) be adequate in the attic to continue receiving the stations I am currently receiving reliably. I understand per hdtvprimer that dry asphalt shingles should be "mostly transparent to TV signals". However, would heavy rains during spring/summer or snowstorms (or even snow sitting on roof) during winter cause significant attentuation? Even in these situations, if we can atleast get the local channels, we could live with it but would like to set my expectations accordingly.


If I invest in a preamp, would it make sense to consider an antenna with better gain? Reason I ask is that I imagine the CS2's wider beamwidth (as well as the stronger local signals) might be helping pull in all the channels I have listed without having to re-orient the antenna. If this is true, would a directional/stronger gain antenna produce different (undesriable) results where we might lose some local channels if the antenna is pointed at the Minneapolis stations (at 335 degrees)

Ken Nist's website indicates the CS2 would not work with VHF signals. So I am a bit stumped as to how it is able to reliably receive KTTC (and to some extent KARE w/ preamp). Thoughts? Could AntennasDirect have made any modifications since Ken's testing?


Thanks for any input,

-Topper


----------



## rabbit73

*topperdude*:


Thanks for the detailed report about your encouraging test results; you are on the right track.


> Quote:
> Would the CS2 with an appropriate preamp (either the RCA or 7777 or a winegard model) be adequate in the attic to continue receiving the stations I am currently receiving reliably. I understand per hdtvprimer that dry asphalt shingles should be "mostly transparent to TV signals". However, would heavy rains during spring/summer or snowstorms (or even snow sitting on roof) during winter cause significant attentuation? Even in these situations, if we can atleast get the local channels, we could live with it but would like to set my expectations accordingly.



I don't know what will happen if you put the antenna in the attic, because its attenuation is not known. If there is a metallic vapor/radiation barrier, it will block the signals. You will just have to make some more tests. If you look at the signature for my previous post, you can tell, by the Kelvin quote, that I am a great believer in measurements. My best guess is that the local channels at 174 to 193 degrees will be OK.


> Quote:
> If I invest in a preamp, would it make sense to consider an antenna with better gain? Reason I ask is that I imagine the CS2's wider beamwidth (as well as the stronger local signals) might be helping pull in all the channels I have listed without having to re-orient the antenna. If this is true, would a directional/stronger gain antenna produce different (undesriable) results where we might lose some local channels if the antenna is pointed at the Minneapolis stations (at 335 degrees)



You probably don't need an antenna with more gain for the local channels unless one is now marginal. An antenna with more gain has a narrower beamwidth. As I said on another forum : Increased gain and wider beamwidth are mutually exclusive; there is no free lunch.


If you point your antenna at 335 it will probably mess up your locals. A bi-directional antenna would pick up your locals, but it wouldn't have enough gain for 335. If Minneapolis is important to you, you would need a high gain VHF-hi & UHF combo antenna with its own preamp and an A/B switch at the output of the two preamp power supplies to change antennas. Your TV would have to be capable of adding a channel after scan (many can't), which the Zenith box can do.


If you are getting everything you want just before the splitter, but not after it at the TVs, then you might need a distribution amp (DA) to make up for the 8-way splitter loss (do you really need 8?). Some DAs have an amp and splitter all in one unit.


-rabbit


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *txemsdoc* /forum/post/20148777
> 
> 
> I'm looking for advice in perhaps not the best of circumstances....
> 
> 
> First, a link to my TV Fool report...
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7d92bb04b7c1d6
> 
> 
> I'm on the northeast corner of a building downtown, on the 8th floor. I can not do an external antenna. I have no ceiling I can access. I can mount something to the wall the tv is mounted on. That wall is the west side of my office, but there's some 20 offices between mine and the west side of the building.
> 
> 
> I'm looking for NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX and PBS primarily.
> 
> 
> I bought a cheaper flat RCA antenna ... RCA 1450. It gives me FOX and NBC only (well, if you don't count the religious and hispanic stations). I'm not using the amplifier.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions for another antenna which would be more likely to improve reception?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Chris



I would try a traditional pair of rabbit ears first. 3 of those channels are in the vhf band. Location is critical indoors. I'd try near a window first. If the 2 uhf channels don't work, an additional antenna can be added. The rabbit ears may not need to be extended more than 2 sections.


Rabbit ears do receive uhf signals. It's a question of whether or not they do it well enough at your location.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *txemsdoc* /forum/post/20148777
> 
> 
> I'm looking for advice in perhaps not the best of circumstances....
> 
> 
> First, a link to my TV Fool report...
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7d92bb04b7c1d6
> 
> 
> I'm on the northeast corner of a building downtown, on the 8th floor.



Your best likely location will be in/near a window or (depending on building materials) an external wall. Being on the "wrong" side of the building, your reception will be bounced signals and results are impossible to predict. But with a *lot* of patience and trial/error, you may find a reception hot spot where all of your local channels of interest to the S/SW come in.


The flat antenna you bought is often purchased for aesthetics reasons. Unfortunately, it is nearly always a poor performer. Still with your strong signals, you _may_ find a reception hot spot where even it will work. If not, you might want to get a tried & true budget antenna, the * RS model 15-1874 *. Extend each dipole rod about 1/2 of its total length, in a "V" shape. To move it around the room in search of a hot spot, attach a longer length of coax, using a barrel splice http://i40.tinypic.com/14xgq2r.jpg , also sold at RadioShack. Run your TV's add new channels option, if available, after each antenna location change. If your TV has no "scan for new channels" feature, do a complete rescan after each time you move the antenna.


I cannot stand RS stores, and only suggest this antenna because of past experience with it. I and others I know have used this specific model antenna in many situations with similar TVFool results as yours, with excellent results.


Do *not* buy an amplified antenna. It may overload your tuner and only make reception worse, not better.


----------



## holl_ands

Bear in mind that the -83 dBm sensitivity and -5 dBm overload specs are for a BENCH TEST.


The "overload" test is with just ONE signal and ignores the much more important 3rd Order Intermod

distortion product problem when there are MULTIPLE strong signals on the input. To maximize the

Spurious Free Dynamic Range (SFDR), the max input might be more in the range of -10 to -15 dBm,

although the FCC OET test report didn't try to actually measure it this way, so we don't really know:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...TestReport.pdf 

[For more info, search forum for my posts re: "SFDR".....]


The sensitivity test looks for a nose dive in the measured bit error rate as the signal level is reduced.

But in the REAL world there is going to be a bunch of multipath signals coming into the antenna,

which in many cases can be countered by a slightly stronger signal and in more than a few extreme cases

(the "Ensemble Test Cases"), might need a LOT more signal strength....and a 6th Gen decoder chip:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...on-testing.pdf 
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%2...y-report1.html 


TVFool received signal level (dBm) and "NM" Noise Margin values (after correcting for Antenna Gain/Loss)

are a statistical "average" assuming some sort of "minimally" acceptable level of performance. However,

to ensure long term reliability and account for various "missing" variables try to design in at least another

10 dB of Fade Margin [e.g. trees, clutter, EVM (Error Vector Magnitude) degradation due to SWR, et. al.]


FYI: New Balun Loss measurements by Antennas Direct Tech are here (Back-To-Back, so divide by two):
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...06#post1232706 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...60#post1233360 

Center line is 500 MHz with 100 MHz per horizontal division, so 700 MHz is two divisions right of center.


----------



## tylerSC

Well I used to love going and browsing around Radioshack back in the 70s and 80s, but not so much the current incarnation. Somewhere in the 90s they began to change.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Ken Nist's website indicates the CS2 would not work with VHF signals. So I am a bit stumped as to how it is able to reliably receive KTTC (and to some extent KARE w/ preamp). Thoughts? Could AntennasDirect have made any modifications since Ken's testing?



Nope, we haven't changed anything (yet!).


Since the C2 is too small (physically) to be resonant at VHF frequencies, our designer made the balun so that it can admit a bit of signal collected from the shield of the coaxial cable. In effect, he tried to put feed-line radiation to a useful purpose in a manner similar to that used by your bedside clock radio (power cord is the FM antenna). Results from this technique are, at best, highly variable.


If you know how to exploit it, the coax can be routed to best expose the first several feet (closest to the antenna) of the coax to the most incoming signal. For horizontally polarized signals, that usually means an orientation that is horizontal and is perpendicular to the line-of-sight of the incoming signals. I've successfully used this technique for stations about 60 miles away. However, I do have better toys in my toy-box that allows me to "cheat" when checking reception. In general, I don't expect reliable VHF reception beyond 15-20 miles in uncomplicated situations with the C2 as my "tricks" aren't particularly applicable to the consumer.


----------



## kamorro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kamorro* /forum/post/19493659
> 
> 
> Here is my TV Fool report:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3d554314f6c



Went to Radio Shack and talked to someone about channel 8.1 on my set not getting audio. The picture comes in great, but I get no audio. The guy at Radio Shack told me to upgrade from the Budget Antenna (T#749) to the Amplified Antenna (15-254). Will that help me at all to get the Amplified Antenna to get audio from channel 8.1 on my TVFool report?


----------



## holl_ands

Since you are talking about a digital TV channel (8.1), you apparently obtained either

a CECB or a HD OTA Tuner for either your old analog tube TV or your "newer" HDTV

(you didn't say what you are now using).


If you can see the digital video picture and can't hear audio, the problem isn't in the antenna,

it is either a volume control problem in the external OTA Tuner (read the owner's manual

or let us know what you're using) or (if you are using Red/White/Yellow connections) there

is a cabling problem.


It would help if you let us know exactly which external tuner you are using and whether

you connected it via the Ch3/4 RF Output or the Red/White/Yellow Audio/Video output.


----------



## kamorro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/20180289
> 
> 
> Since you are talking about a digital TV channel (8.1), you apparently obtained either
> 
> a CECB or a HD OTA Tuner for either your old analog tube TV or your "newer" HDTV
> 
> (you didn't say what you are now using).
> 
> 
> If you can see the digital video picture and can't hear audio, the problem isn't in the antenna,
> 
> it is either a volume control problem in the external OTA Tuner (read the owner's manual
> 
> or let us know what you're using) or (if you are using Red/White/Yellow connections) there
> 
> is a cabling problem.
> 
> 
> It would help if you let us know exactly which external tuner you are using and whether
> 
> you connected it via the Ch3/4 RF Output or the Red/White/Yellow Audio/Video output.



I am using the Radio Shack Budget HDTV Antenna straight to the Antenna IN on my Toshiba 56hmx96 HDTV. It's not a "newer HDTV", so I'm not sure if that's the problem that I'm using a TV purchased before the digital switch? Also, all of my other channels I get are just fine with audio AND picture, it's just this particular ABC channel (8.1).


I am not using a tuner at all. Also, I live somewhat down a hill and I have used the same antenna at my friend's house on his "newer" HDTV that was purchased AFTER the Digital Switch and he gets audio just fine on channel 8.1 and all other OTA Channels.


Again, before I purchase the Amplified HDTV Antenna from Radio Shack, I want to know if that will make a difference or if the being located at the bottom of a hill is the biggest problem. If that is the problem, will the amplified antenna help me with that channel or get me another ABC channel since it's "amplified"?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kamorro* /forum/post/20179855
> 
> 
> Went to Radio Shack and talked to someone about channel 8.1 on my set not getting audio. The picture comes in great, but I get no audio. The guy at Radio Shack told me to upgrade from the Budget Antenna (T#749) to the Amplified Antenna (15-254). Will that help me at all to get the Amplified Antenna to get audio from channel 8.1 on my TVFool report?



Short answer: No. The antenna is not your problem.


Long answer: It's your receiver/tuner, most likely.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kamorro* /forum/post/20179855
> 
> 
> Went to Radio Shack and talked to someone about channel 8.1 on my set not getting audio. The picture comes in great, but I get no audio. The guy at Radio Shack told me to upgrade from the Budget Antenna (T#749) to the Amplified Antenna (15-254). Will that help me at all to get the Amplified Antenna to get audio from channel 8.1 on my TVFool report?



No. It will not help at all. And the guy at the store is a complete idiot.

*This* is why I absolutely hate Radio Shack stores.


----------



## kamorro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/20180289
> 
> 
> Since you are talking about a digital TV channel (8.1), you apparently obtained either
> 
> a CECB or a HD OTA Tuner for either your old analog tube TV or your "newer" HDTV
> 
> (you didn't say what you are now using).
> 
> 
> If you can see the digital video picture and can't hear audio, the problem isn't in the antenna,
> 
> it is either a volume control problem in the external OTA Tuner (read the owner's manual
> 
> or let us know what you're using) or (if you are using Red/White/Yellow connections) there
> 
> is a cabling problem.
> 
> 
> It would help if you let us know exactly which external tuner you are using and whether
> 
> you connected it via the Ch3/4 RF Output or the Red/White/Yellow Audio/Video output.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20182348
> 
> 
> No. It will not help at all. And the guy at the store is a complete idiot.
> 
> *This* is why I absolutely hate Radio Shack stores.



So is there a better Antenna I CAN buy & try that might get the audio for that channel or is the Radio Shack Budget Antenna the best one?


----------



## IDRick

Kamorro,


A different antenna is not likely to resolve the issue. The problem is more likely an issue with your tv tuner. However, it is possible that there are irregularities with the broadcast from ch 8. Our local Fox affiliate had issues with certain converter boxes at the transition. Mine was one of those affected (quality video, no audio). Their solution was for me to buy a new converter. Eventually they found/fixed the problem on their end and my "bad" converter is now a "good" converter....


Good luck!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kamorro* /forum/post/20183366
> 
> 
> So is there a better Antenna I CAN buy & try that might get the audio for that channel or is the Radio Shack Budget Antenna the best one?



The problem is *not* your antenna. It is likely an incompatibility between that station's sub channel and your particular TV tuner's ability to decode the audio. It is usually a data error on the part of the station they are not aware of that causes only certain brands of tuners to not decode the audio. I have a station with the same problem. KPBI 34-1 decodes properly, but 34-2 has no audio. And only on *one* of my TVs. Both TVs are connected to the same antenna.


----------



## holl_ands

Ditto, what arxaw said....you might give the station & Toshiba a call to see if they'll

admit there might be a problem....


Digital Audio is carried within the same MPEG2 data stream as the Digital Video.

If your HDTV can't decode that particular station, there is something wrong with

either the transmitted MPEG2 (such as erroneous PSIP) or there is something

strange going on inside the HDTV.....


----------



## kamorro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20183906
> 
> 
> The problem is *not* your antenna. It is likely an incompatibility between that station's sub channel and your particular TV tuner's ability to decode the audio. It is usually a data error on the part of the station they are not aware of that causes only certain brands of tuners to not decode the audio. I have a station with the same problem. KPBI 34-1 decodes properly, but 34-2 has no audio. And only on *one* of my TVs. Both TVs are connected to the same antenna.



Would a converter box do anything? I know I have a Digital Ready TV, but I have an old Sansui DVD Recorder that I don't believe has the ATSC Tuner capability to record the OTA channels, so I was considering buying a converter box already for that reason. Do you think a converter box might make a difference with the audio on that channel?


And while I'm at it, is there a way to see if my Sansui DVD Recorder has the right tuner and if I need a converter box or not? I BELIEVE it's the VRDVD5000 DVD Recorder/VCR Combo. I have tried attaching the antenna to the Atenna In on the Sansui DVD Recorder and having a cable cord go from the Antenna out to the Antenna In on my TV and it wouldn't work. Would using RCA cords for output help or is that a sign I have a DVD Recorder without the right tuner?


----------



## arxaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by *kamorro* 
....Do you think a converter box might make a difference with the audio on that channel?...
*If* the type of data errors the station is transmitting are only affecting audio on certain brands of tuners, then a different tuner (converter box) might help.


Be aware that converter boxes (the kind that were sold during the digital transition coupon program) are not HD. They are standard definition only.


----------



## chong67

I am going to ditch my dish next month and just go with over the air FREE.


I try the RCA 1450 I got at Wall Mart and it was OK. I just need to move the receiver up up near the ceiling.


Is there any good indoor antenna? I live south of Atlanta.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chong67* /forum/post/20315696
> 
> 
> I am going to ditch my dish next month and just go with over the air FREE.
> 
> 
> I try the RCA 1450 I got at Wall Mart and it was OK. I just need to move the receiver up up near the ceiling.
> 
> 
> Is there any good indoor antenna? I live south of Atlanta.



If you are having problems with channels broadcasting on the VHF band, try moving the antenna away from electronics with a longer cable. You can learn the frequencies at the TVFool website. Real numbers below 14 are considered VHF. Flat antennas can be used at many angles, between flat and straight up. A different angle also might yield better results. Good Luck.


----------



## Steve_Weggus

Indoor antennas are iffy. The reasons are #1) the structure's walls diminish the signal strength and #2) compromises are made so that the antennas look better. Since receiving the VHF channels requires larger elements than UHF channels, indoor antennas may have issues with VHF reception.


In Atlanta, if your reception issues are with channels 8 or 11, then you are having problems with VHF reception.


Some people actually use small outdoor antennas and hide them under something. If you are not renting, then you might consider an attic installation.


----------



## ungarsfragile

Hi All,


I currently have an amplified RCA ANT-1450 hooked up to a samsung plasma. The antenna is on top of the TV stand, maybe 10-12 feet off ground level. I get every UHF station available, in good weather above 80% on the signal meter. But as soon as a few clouds form, some of my channels drop to the mid 60% range and I start getting blocks and having the audio cut out.


Here's my TV Fool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8d176a77a3188c 


I don't get WYES (hi-VHF), but every other station comes in. The stations I have trouble with in bad weather are WGNO and WNOL. (My wife's really annoyed because she's missed three weeks of grey's anatomy- go fig.) I'm less than ten miles from all the transmitters, I live in a single story townhouse (ground floor is about five feet off the ground) with 12 foot ceilings, and all the other houses in my neighborhood are 2 stories max, so I don't think I have to worry about multipath. I want to get a new antenna set up that will hold up a little better under wind and rain. I'd prefer mounting an antenna indoors because I rent. I can get to the attic if necessary but that would be a worst case scenario (it's not easily accessible- I'd have to climb onto the roof for attic access.)


I was thinking about getting a DB2 and mounting it high in an east-facing window. It'd be about 15 feet off ground level. I have 100 ft of RG6 from fry's, but from that window it's only a 25 foot run to the TV. I wouldn't mind an antenna that could get hi-vhf but it's not strictly necessary (WYES is a PBS station, and I already get WLAE on UHF). I welcome any suggestions.


----------



## arxaw

With your TVFool, that 1450 is probably one of the *worst* antennas you could use. Amplified antennas at your signal strengths often make reception much worse. Try *this specific model RS passive antenna*, with the dipoles extended in a "V" about half length each. This antenna is known to work well for similar TVFool reports as yours.


If you continue to have problems, you'll need to move the antenna around until you find a reception hot spot in your room and away from all other electronics that might interfere - even the TV. To add a longer coax, use a barrel splice , also available at RS.


----------



## Jim1348

 http://www.microcenter.com/single_pr...uct_id=0346269 

http://www.supersonicinc.com/index.cfm/Digital_Antennas 

http://www.supersonicinc.com/index.c...ctID/3,3877325 

http://www.google.com/products/catal...005&os=reviews 


Just in case anybody is looking for a very inexpensive indoor UHF antenna, Microcenter has these for $9.99.



Supersonic SC-602

HDTV and Digital TV Indoor Antenna


Our Price: $9.99

SKU 962381

Mfr Part #: 927517

UPC: 639131006027


Availability:

In-store Pickup Only

10 in stock

at Twin Cities/St. Louis Park for 18 Minute In-Store Pickup (explain)


Supports HDTV 1080p, 1080i, 720p Broadcast; Full Band DTV/UHF Receiver; High Front to Back Ratio Helps Reject Unwanted; Multi-Path Signal Corruption; Flat Forward Gain Slope Delivers Balance Reception; Maximum Reception Range: 40 Miles; Frequency Range 470-860MHz Channels; Antenna Gain 10dB; Wall Mountable Design

General Features

What's in the Box HDTV and Digital TV Indoor Antenna, 3.28ft. Coaxial Cable

Manufacturers Warranty 90 Day Limited Warranty


----------



## jmsnyc

RCA ANT111 or ANT121 versus Radio Shack Basic Antenna? Any thoughts ? The ANT121 and RS Basic are both $12.99 online.


----------



## chong67

I move my RCA 1450 almost to the top of the ceiling now and I am getting all the stations above 85% power now. I am happy.


I live in Atlanta and 11.1 (NBC) for me is the only major network that didnt do well. I only get like 75% and if it goes below that, I get pixelation.


I cant get GPB 8.1, 8.2, 8.3 and their Antenna sit on top of Stone Mountain.


What other antennas can I try?


Thanks for helping.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chong67* /forum/post/20318814
> 
> 
> I move my RCA 1450 almost to the top of the ceiling now and I am getting all the stations above 85% power now. I am happy.
> 
> 
> I live in Atlanta and 11.1 (NBC) for me is the only major network that didnt do well. I only get like 75% and if it goes below that, I get pixelation.
> 
> 
> I cant get GPB 8.1, 8.2, 8.3 and their Antenna sit on top of Stone Mountain.
> 
> 
> What other antennas can I try?
> 
> 
> Thanks for helping.



A pair of rabbit ears is still the smallest VHF antenna to try. An a-b switch could be used to connect to your current antenna. Rabbit ears can be used laid flat in addition to the classic "V" shape. Someone you know probably has a pair that you could borrow to try for 8.1. Near a window is probably the best location, away from electronics.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmsnyc* /forum/post/20317947
> 
> 
> RCA ANT111 or ANT121 versus Radio Shack Basic Antenna? Any thoughts ? The ANT121 and RS Basic are both $12.99 online.



Buy the RS basic from a store. That way you can return it if it doesn't do the job. Pick up a barrel splice as well, and get some additional coax. This will enable you to find a good location for the antenna. VHF signals are much more prone to electrical interference, so extra coax is advisable.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmsnyc* /forum/post/20317947
> 
> 
> RCA ANT111 or ANT121 versus Radio Shack Basic Antenna? Any thoughts ?



Thoughts. There is a difference.


Get the Radio Shack Budget antenna.


----------



## chong67




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/20319004
> 
> 
> A pair of rabbit ears is still the smallest VHF antenna to try. An a-b switch could be used to connect to your current antenna. Rabbit ears can be used laid flat in addition to the classic "V" shape. Someone you know probably has a pair that you could borrow to try for 8.1. Near a window is probably the best location, away from electronics.



I think I will give up on that PBS channel. I dont like to switch back n forth.


1. Why cant those in VHF move to UHF channels?


2. I thought digital is all 1 or 0. VHF dooesnt do as well as UHF?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chong67* /forum/post/20319285
> 
> 
> I think I will give up on that PBS channel. I dont like to switch back n forth.
> 
> 
> 1. Why cant those in VHF move to UHF channels?
> 
> 
> 2. I thought digital is all 1 or 0. VHF dooesnt do as well as UHF?



Here, my most reliable stations are rf 9 & 10. VHF is doing better than UHF. However, the location of the indoor antennas is crucial. At the transition, I had 100% signal from Walnut Grove UHF stations and a black screen for rf 9 & 10. The coax that came in the box with the antenna was too short to escape interference being produced by a plasma set. If you are using the antenna you have with only the coax that came with it, a barrel splice and some extra coax still might work. Amplified antennas only add to the interference problem which is indeed worse for VHF channels.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chong67* /forum/post/20319285
> 
> 
> 1. Why cant those in VHF move to UHF channels?



Actually, many have. See "VHF Nightmares":
http://www.rabbitears.info/vhf.php 

But in many areas, there aren't enough channels left to do that (post-transition, chs 51 thru 69 are being removed from TV service in the US, for other uses). In some cases, the stations clung to their old VHF slots for several reasons. Unfortunately, many VHF digital stations are vastly underpowered and don't work as well as analog did in many cases.



> Quote:
> 2. I thought digital is all 1 or 0. VHF doesnt do as well as UHF?



VHF is lower frequency than UHF. It is more prone to interference from other electrical devices indoors. With analog, this would just cause static on the screen. With digital, you end up with audio/video dropouts - very annoying. Being lower frequency, the VHF wavelengths are also much longer than shorter UHF. They have a harder time penetrating many building materials.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim1348* /forum/post/20317604
> 
> http://www.microcenter.com/single_pr...uct_id=0346269
> 
> http://www.supersonicinc.com/index.cfm/Digital_Antennas
> 
> http://www.supersonicinc.com/index.c...ctID/3,3877325
> 
> http://www.google.com/products/catal...005&os=reviews
> 
> 
> Just in case anybody is looking for a very inexpensive indoor UHF antenna, Microcenter has these for $9.99.
> 
> 
> 
> Supersonic SC-602
> 
> HDTV and Digital TV Indoor Antenna
> 
> 
> Our Price: $9.99
> 
> SKU 962381
> 
> Mfr Part #: 927517
> 
> UPC: 639131006027
> 
> 
> Availability:
> 
> In-store Pickup Only
> 
> 10 in stock
> 
> at Twin Cities/St. Louis Park for 18 Minute In-Store Pickup (explain)
> 
> 
> Supports HDTV 1080p, 1080i, 720p Broadcast; Full Band DTV/UHF Receiver; High Front to Back Ratio Helps Reject Unwanted; Multi-Path Signal Corruption; Flat Forward Gain Slope Delivers Balance Reception; Maximum Reception Range: 40 Miles; Frequency Range 470-860MHz Channels; Antenna Gain 10dB; Wall Mountable Design
> 
> General Features
> 
> What's in the Box HDTV and Digital TV Indoor Antenna, 3.28ft. Coaxial Cable
> 
> Manufacturers Warranty 90 Day Limited Warranty



Looks just like the Channel Master 4040 indoor antenna...


----------



## Jim1348

Yes, it does look like the Channel Master 4040 indoor antenna. Is that a good antenna? Is it worth $9.99?


----------



## chong67

You guys are not going to believe this.


I was talking to my cousin and he said try your cable line. I had Comcast cable modem ONLY (no TV) 5 months ago. I got rid of my internet cause going with DSL is cheaper for 1 yr.


SO I hook it to my HDTV for the very first time. The thing is live. I pick up all the free analog channel + those digital free OTA. I am returning my indoor antenna.


I am sure this is very common thing that Comcast just do not bother to disconnect it.


So I am happy for now.


----------



## ungarsfragile




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20317386
> 
> 
> With your TVFool, that 1450 is probably one of the *worst* antennas you could use. Amplified antennas at your signal strengths often make reception much worse. Try *this specific model RS passive antenna*, with the dipoles extended in a "V" about half length each. This antenna is known to work well for similar TVFool reports as yours.
> 
> 
> If you continue to have problems, you'll need to move the antenna around until you find a reception hot spot in your room and away from all other electronics that might interfere - even the TV. To add a longer coax, use a barrel splice, also available at RS.



I got the radio shack 15-246 antenna (higher wife acceptance factor than the super basic one, didn't need the barrel plug since it has an f connector on the back, and it gets good reviews) and mounted it high in my window, it works great for every channel except WVUE. WVUE broadcasts from the same direction and about the same power as the other networks in my area.. Any idea why one channel would be dropping out? It varies from 60% to 30%, and below 50% the picture dies.


----------



## ungarsfragile




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chong67* /forum/post/20322980
> 
> 
> SO I hook it to my HDTV for the very first time. The thing is live. I pick up all the free analog channel + those digital free OTA. I am returning my indoor antenna.
> 
> 
> I am sure this is very common thing that Comcast just do not bother to disconnect it.



Yeah, I had this from cox for a few months until they sent a guy to the pole to install a trap on the line. No complaints here- its their right to filter out the cable TV freqs.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chong67* /forum/post/20322980
> 
> 
> You guys are not going to believe this.
> 
> 
> I was talking to my cousin and he said try your cable line. I had Comcast cable modem ONLY (no TV) 5 months ago. I got rid of my internet cause going with DSL is cheaper for 1 yr.
> 
> 
> SO I hook it to my HDTV for the very first time. The thing is live. I pick up all the free analog channel + those digital free OTA. I am returning my indoor antenna.
> 
> 
> I am sure this is very common thing that Comcast just do not bother to disconnect it.
> 
> 
> So I am happy for now.



Sure, but what happens if Comcast conducts an audit in your neighborhood? They will be able to tell that you are hooked up by doing electrical tests.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ungarsfragile* /forum/post/20333985
> 
> 
> I got the radio shack 15-246 antenna (higher wife acceptance factor than the super basic one, didn't need the barrel plug since it has an f connector on the back, and it gets good reviews) and mounted it high in my window, it works great for every channel except WVUE. WVUE broadcasts from the same direction and about the same power as the other networks in my area.. Any idea why one channel would be dropping out? It varies from 60% to 30%, and below 50% the picture dies.



Each frequency propagates differently. The channel dropping out on you may not be traveling well to your antenna. However, your antenna may need a different aim for WVUE, even if other channels from the same direction are coming in well.


----------



## dartmouth01

Hi all,


Need some recommendations on an OTA situation. My grandmother is in a nursing home in Manhattan and we would like to pull in channel 63 (WMBC. 63.5 to be exact) along with her current channels (currently she is using an RCA flat panel antenna with the included amp, tuning is done in the TV). Here is the TV Fool link to the site info:

tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8d17b600313c76 (sorry I can't make the link a hyperlink, but I haven't made my 3 posts yet....)


We can't mount anything outside of the window, so it would have to be an indoor antenna (movable), and the building has dense walls, probably made of concrete. She is on the 4th floor. There is one window, facing east.


It seems that that signal I want to pick up is to the west (in NJ), and about 15 miles away. What set up would have a good chance of picking up channel 63? After the bit of research I've done, I'm thinking of getting a Terrestrial DB2 with a Channelmaster 7777 amp. I would appreciate the advice and help!


----------



## StuJac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dartmouth01* /forum/post/20358981
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> 
> Need some recommendations on an OTA situation. My grandmother is in a nursing home in Manhattan and we would like to pull in channel 63 (WMBC. 63.5 to be exact) along with her current channels (currently she is using an RCA flat panel antenna with the included amp, tuning is done in the TV). Here is the TV Fool link to the site info:
> 
> tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8d17b600313c76 (sorry I can't make the link a hyperlink, but I haven't made my 3 posts yet....)
> 
> 
> We can't mount anything outside of the window, so it would have to be an indoor antenna (movable), and the building has dense walls, probably made of concrete. She is on the 4th floor. There is one window, facing east.
> 
> 
> It seems that that signal I want to pick up is to the west (in NJ), and about 15 miles away. What set up would have a good chance of picking up channel 63? After the bit of research I've done, I'm thinking of getting a Terrestrial DB2 with a Channelmaster 7777 amp. I would appreciate the advice and help!



I'll take a shot; no way you'll find an antenna that will not only pull in a signal from the wrong direction but be able to pull in a signal from a hospital room. Very difficult.


----------



## rivergal

Hi, newbie here.


I've been using an old Recoton indoor antenna with mixed success, and would like to find a better option that would improve my reception. Not looking for miracles here, just good reception for the green channels here:
TV Fool Results 


Trying to keep the budget below $100, prefer even less. Would prefer either an indoor model or something I can mount in the attic. Home is a one story CBS structure, and we do have lots of tall trees about.


----------



## Rammitinski

I'd go with the attic and a Channel Master CM4228. You could put a rotor on it, but you'd still get most or all of your green channels without it.


A DB4 would probably work fine, but the larger 4228 may get you some of those off-axis stations without a rotor (and channel 10), and the added gain would compensate for the longer coax run from the attic (and for just being in the attic - and the trees).


----------



## ProjectSHO89

The 4228 would have only about half the beamwidth of the 4-bay making it MORE directional and LESS likely to pick up off-axis stations. It would do much better on the VHF, though.


Since channel 11 has a NM of around 45 dB, even a rock or stick should pick it up, so the DB4 would likely suffice.


----------



## TheFatKid4Life

First post so before I begin, thanks EscapeVelocity and all the AVS Forum regulars for the awesome resource. I live in a second floor apartment and I'm trying to decide on an indoor amplified antenna. I've searched AVS and other forums but I can't seem to find a definitive answer as to which of these two antennas is better: the RadioShack 15-1892 UFO or a Quantum FX ANT-102. I already have my Insignia NS-DXA1-APT hooked up to a Radio Shack 15-234 Bow-Tie Antenna and get good reception for "close" channels but some channels break-up then disappear.


I can get the bow-tie in the closest window (which faces East) without any problems but anything larger wouldn't fit and would have to be roughly 6' from it. I am surrounded by other apartment buildings, the closest window has a metal frame with metal surrounding the panes of glass (apt. was built in the '40s) and there is a large tree in front of the window that blocks a clear line of site. I've included both my TV Fool and AntennaWeb "reports" below:

*TV Fool:*
Code:


Code:


Callsign                Chan            Network Dist(mi)        Path    NM(dB)
 WXII-DT                31      (12.1)  NBC     20.6            LOS     61.5
 WUNL-TV                32              PBS     20.5            LOS     59.0
 WCWG-DT                19      (20.1)  CW      29.7            LOS     58.8
 WXLV-DT                29      (45.1)  ABC     29.7            LOS     58.5
 WFMY-DT                51      (2.1)   CBS     28.8            LOS     57.3
 WMYV                   33      (48.1)  MyN     29.7            LOS     56.5
 WGHP                   35      (8.1)   Fox     31.0            LOS     52.4
 WLXI-DT                43      (61.1)  Ind     29.7            LOS     48.5
 WGPX                   14      (16.1)  ION     36.5            1Edge   31.9
 WUNG-DT                44      (58.1)  PBS     53.8            LOS     31.0
 WCNC-DT                22      (36.1)  NBC     71.5            LOS     30.0
 WJZY-DT                47      (46.1)  CW      70.2            LOS     27.6
 WSOC-DT                34      (9.1)   ABC     62.5            1Edge   26.5
 WBTV                   23              CBS     71.3            1Edge   25.9
 WCCB-DT                27      (18.1)  Fox     62.3            1Edge   25.1
 WMYT-DT                39      (55.1)  MyN     70.2            LOS     22.7
 WAXN-TV                36              Ind     39.5            LOS     20.3
 WTVI-DT                11      (42.1)  PBS     60.2            LOS     14.9
 WUNC-TV                25      (4.1)   PBS     64.0            2Edge   14.8
 WAXN-DT                50      (64.1)  Ind     62.5            1Edge   14.7

*AntennaWeb:*
Code:


Code:


DTV             Antenna Call    Channel Network City,                   Compass Miles   RF
                Type    Sign                    State                   Heading From    Channel
*       yellow  uhf     WUNL-DT 26.1    PBS     CHAPEL HILL, NC         353°    20.5    32
*       yellow  uhf     WCWG-DT 20.1    CW      LEXINGTON, NC           128°    29.6    19
*       yellow  uhf     WFMY-DT 2.1     CBS     GREENSBORO, NC          129°    28.8    51
*       yellow  uhf     WXLV-DT 45.1    ABC     WINSTON-SALEM, NC       128°    29.6    29
*       yellow  uhf     WXII-DT 12.1    NBC     WINSTON-SALEM, NC       353°    20.5    31
*       green   uhf     WMYV-DT 48.1    MNT     GREENSBORO, NC          128°    29.6    33
*       green   uhf     WGHP-DT 8.1     FOX     HIGH POINT, NC          135°    31.0    35
*       red     uhf     WLXI-DT 43.1    TCT     GREENSBORO, NC          128°    29.6    43
*       blue    uhf     WCNC-DT 36.1    NBC     CHARLOTTE, NC           232°    71.6    22
*       blue    uhf     WBTV-DT 3.1     CBS     CHARLOTTE, NC           233°    71.4    23
*       blue    uhf     WGPX-DT 16.1    ION     BURLINGTON, NC          80°     36.4    14
*       blue    uhf     WJZY-DT 46.1    CW      BELMONT, NC             232°    70.2    47
*       blue    uhf     WCCB-DT 18.1    FOX     CHARLOTTE, NC           212°    62.3    27
*       blue    uhf     WUNG-DT 58.1    PBS     CHAPEL HILL, NC         208°    53.8    44
*       blue    uhf     WSOC-DT 9.1     ABC     CHARLOTTE, NC           212°    62.4    34
*       violet  uhf     WAXN-DT 64.1    IND     KANNAPOLIS, NC          212°    62.4    50
*       violet  uhf     WMYT-DT 55.1    MNT     ROCK HILL, SC           232°    70.2    39

Would either of these antennas help me get better reception and if so, which one would everyone suggest? Thanks for any help you can give.


----------



## deltaguy

TheFatKid4Life,


I wouldn't try either of the antennas you are looking at. They both have rabbit ears, and that is something you don't need. You are looking for broadcasters on the UHF band. There are somewhat small outdoor UHF antennas that folks use indoors. That is the next step up antenna-wise. Bear in mind, you have channels originating in several different directions. Are you adjusting the bowtie to try for reception of the various channels? If not, that would be a good idea. Have you tried the bowtie with the metal framed window? If not, that would also be an idea to try. NBC and PBS might be better from that one. Multiple antennas and an a-b switch may be an option for your situation. Good Luck.


----------



## theroys88




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14176948
> 
> *Radio Shack RS 15-1892 - The UFO*
> 
> 
> *aka The Magic Mushroom, The Starship Enterprise, The Frisbee*
> 
> 
> 
> This thing is GREAT! The geek factor is high on this one! LOL! Its freakin sweet! Its like a Smart Antenna without the tuner control interface.
> 
> 
> I bought this one used....and it came with everthing but the instructions. Undaunted, i hooked it up, and found that I could set the channels and move the rotating antenna within the disc and set the positions and gain, pretty intuitively. I later downloaded and printed instructions in order to write this mini review. This one will be longer than others. Although I only have basically 2 different tower locations, this thing rocked, and would be 10 times more useful if I had more tower directions. Non the less, it was useful at my location....and performed excellently. This one was too close to call really with DB2 unamped, RS DA-5200, and the amped RCA ANT1500. Its got a nice backlit LCD readout for the Channel #, Direction #(kinda arbitrary), and Gain Level #. You can choose between 3 gain levels, 1-2-3, or Low-Medium-High, corresponding (according to the manual) to 13db Min, 18db Min, and 22db Min amplifier levels. I tried this out but ended up setting all my channels to high gain for no particular reason other than "let's go full blast...Warp Speed!" There are 12 selectable positions for the antenna within its disc. There are Plus and Minus buttons on the remote which change the gain level. There are also Left and Right arrow buttons that change the direction of the antenna within its disc. Additionally, there is a press and hold button to turn off the LED display backlight, and a number pad to input channels. The remote is pretty small, but fairly simple to operate. All the buttons are the same size, and its not backlit, and its kind of hard to read...but the layout is simple enough, and the buttons large enough to operate. There is one more large button on the remote with the label Store, for storing a group of settings for an individual channel once you have it set up in the right direction and gain for best signal on that particular channel. One thing to note is that when the antenna moves, the motor is audible, but not obnoxiously loud. Kinda reassuring actually, you can hear that its working. On the back there is a 75ohm coax output hookup and an Aux input, and a switch to choose between the antenna and the Aux input....plus the power input, comes with wall wart and 6ft of detachable coax, plus remote, and guide booklet. It has 2 telescoping Rabbit Ears that are adjustable but limited in motion by the disc. I didnt really test them out....nor any of the other units really. They are for VHF reception. This unit does not have an FM Trap, and can be used as an FM antenna via its Rabbit Ears. The disc measures slightly over 12", its a pretty large antenna. There are Left Right Arrow buttons for changing the antenna position within the disc, and Plus and Minus buttons for adjusting the gain on the front of the antenna left and right of the LCD info panel, plus the push and hold button for turning off the LCD backlight.
> 
> 
> Performance.
> 
> 
> I only tested this unit on top of the Oppo 970 DVD player, it didnt make it to the North corner window like the RS Single Bow Tie and the amped RCA ANT1500 and some others did. It worked pretty good, from my original positioning. But later, after I figured out the remote and operation, I moved it some, but still on top of the Oppo to optimize its performance. I found that all my Charleston channels that are clustered tightly to the North East at 45 miles worked best on postion 8 and slightly worse on postion 7 and 9....and my alternate PBS station at 23 miles SW worked best at position 1 or 12....I probably could have centered its performance on one or the other by twisting the unit slightly clockwise or counter clockwise. With a little tweaking, I had this thing running the board on all my channels, but it seemed that the signal strength may have been a little less than the RS DA-5200. My Vizio GV42LF LCD doesnt have signal strength bars....that is why I havent been reporting them.
> 
> 
> How to set the antenna for a channel?
> 
> 
> This is how I did it. I first changed to the desired channel on the Vizio TV. Then I entered the corresponding channel # on the remote which was then indicated on The UFO's LCD screen, in order to set the antenna direction and gain settings to maximize its performance on that channel. Then I moved the antenna direction with the Left and Right Arrows all the way from position 1 thru 12, it became obvious when the reception locked on. Lets say that channel 8 and 7 seemed like the best candidates from the quick run thru the positions. Then I moved up to 9 to check, and it still worked but with pixelation and dropouts. Back to 8 then on to 7 then 6...oops getting worse again. A/B 7 and 8, physically twist or move the unit if you need to, and there you have it. Position 8. Then check the gain level. Boom you are finished. Push and hold the store button, the info on the panel starts blinking, then press the store button again, and its set. You may have to adjust the gain earlier, if you are overloading your tuner. I cant comment on the effectiveness of the gain adjustment.
> 
> 
> None the less...
> 
> 
> Pretty geekin' sweet! Beam me up Scotty!
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a link to the UFO on Radio Shacks Website, where you can read user reviews and link to the manual in pdf format.
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/sm-buy-the...i-2131034.html
> 
> *eidt: The manual states that there are 99 channel presets available, Ch. 0-99.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide
> 
> 
> Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof
> 
> DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof
> 
> RS 1880
> 
> RCA ANT1500 amped
> 
> RS DA-5200
> *RS 15-1892 UFO*
> 
> DB2 unamped indoors
> 
> Classic Single Bow Tie
> 
> Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors
> 
> Winegard SS-3000
> 
> RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)
> 
> Channel Master 4030
> 
> Philips MANT940
> 
> My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications.... amped
> 
> RS 1868 Delta
> 
> RCA ANT1020
> 
> RCA ANT1500
> 
> Philips MANT 510
> 
> My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications
> 
> RS 1870



I also have this antenna. Bought about 5 years ago during my antenna nightmare phase. Lived in a very wooded community about 12 miles from the broadcast towers. Started with cheap indoor antennas without success. Moved to more expensive ones and still nothing. Finally went to small rooftops antennas but still too much multipath and when the wind kicked up, watching tv was not possible. Finally tried a CM 4228 and a XG91. Still no good when it was windy. Fast forward 5 years and a new location. This time 3.9 miles from most of the stations. 9 miles from WWBT VHF 12.1 and 22 miles from CW. With the RS 1892 I was able to pick up all the stations but again when it was windy I would get some dropouts on certain stations. No matter how much I adjusted it I still would get the dropouts and 1-2 second pixelations. I then tried a Silver Sensor and so far I have not had any dropouts or pixelation. From my location in Midlothian VA I can get some Charlotesville stations but with a lot of pixelation. This with the antenna feeding into a 12db amplifier. HOA in this neighborhood are tough and would love to try a outdoor antenna. I am sure I could pull all of the Charlotesville stations and Norfolk stations. Maybe even some North Carolina stations. I have thought I might try the Quantom FX 102 to see if I could lock on the Charlotesville stations since the Silver Sensor almost could.


----------



## deltaguy

In the past week, the local widely-recognized delta breeze has returned here. This wind, and subsequent tree scatter, has been the chief problem for uhf reception here for years. Unlike in the past, I've removed rabbit ears from the reception equation. The 4-screw push-on vhf/uhf combiner has been replaced by the 2-screw push-on and a bowtie alone. Guess what? Even with tree scatter, all of my local uhf channels have been watchable. I watched a baseball game with about 10 seconds of a/v drops. Last year, with the rabbit ears and bowtie, I would have had at least that many drops every half inning. Other than removing the rabbit ears, nothing else has changed.


The Silver Sensor is a good antenna, but can you aim it straight upward easily? That's not a problem with the bowtie.


What works for reception is always what's best, regardless.


----------



## gmcjetpilot

On page one of this thread were some antennas that were "On Deck". Ebay is full of these *directional antennas on rotors for about $30 give or take (incl shipping)*. They are Yagi types.

*Has any one tried them and which one is best.* I tried to do some research. They are cheaply built buy work well... the bow-tie antennas are better apparently... The rotor has no indicator so it makes it hard to aim (due to the delay in digital to respond). They are made of plastic. Despite all the short comings I want to try one. I am just cutting the cable this month and going OTA. I bought a Used Terk HDTVa... Right now rabbit ears work (even thought they are all UHF stations (about 22 miles). The Terk I am sure will work, but there are some stations out a little further I might want to try some "DX'ing" or distant listening.. Thanks!


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gmcjetpilot* /forum/post/20441183
> 
> 
> On page one of this thread were some antennas that were "On Deck". Ebay is full of these *directional antennas on rotors for about $30 give or take (incl shipping)*. They are Yagi types.
> 
> *Has any one tried them and which one is best.* I tried to do some research. They are cheaply built buy work well... the bow-tie antennas are better apparently... The rotor has no indicator so it makes it hard to aim (due to the delay in digital to respond). They are made of plastic. Despite all the short comings I want to try one. I am just cutting the cable this month and going OTA. I bought a Used Terk HDTVa... Right now rabbit ears work (even thought they are all UHF stations (about 22 miles). The Terk I am sure will work, but there are some stations out a little further I might want to try some "DX'ing" or distant listening.. Thanks!



I dont really recommend them. I recommend you scoop up a rotor on ebay instead and use a better antenna (even small ones or indoor ones).


Gemini Orbit 360

Alliance U-100 or U-110

Radio Shack 1225A or B / Channel Master Colorotor 9510A



You will need a mast section (you can use chain link fence top rail which is easily cut with a hacksaw and can be easily found for about less than $10 for a 10.5 ft section.


Then get yourself an antenna that fits your requirements and limitations.


Recommended.


UHF Only


AntennaCraft Hoverman G1483 (some VHF High gain, low rear rejection at higher UHF giving it some bi-directionality)

Channel Master 4221 (some gain on VHF especially off the backside)

Antennas Direct DB4

Antennas Direct ClearStream2

Eagle Aspen DB2 Clone



With VHF High (as well as UHF)


Denny's EZ HD / RCA ANT751 (Denny has informed me that he has improved the UHF section of his EZ-HD and it now outperforms the stolen RCA ANT751 on UHF). Very good gain on VHF High. Some gain on FM.


Digitenna Suburban/Metro



With VHF Low/FM (as well as VHF High & UHF)


Channel Master 3016


----------



## SunCrisis

Good Afternoon,


I am looking for the proper antenna to buy to get the most channels with the following tvfools output. I have been using an amplified antenna Jensen that I bought at a yard sale for 5$ it bring in 4.1 9.1 20.1 but not 27.1, 66.1, 17.1

I bought my mom a new TV and gave her my antenna and it is bringing in many channel for her. Se then bought me a canadian tire Quantum HDTV Amplified Antenna to replace mine but it not that good.

tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5747d1ad584fb2 


Any sugestion on the proper antenna (indoor) to get the most channels.


----------



## rabbit73

SunCrisis:


Welcome to the forum. Your tvfool report looks like this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5747d1ad584fb2 


I don't think you should use an amplified antenna because it might be overloaded by your strong signals.


What antenna will work best for you depends upon the building construction and the location of the indoor antenna. The channels that you want are coming from two different directions: 4.1, 9.1, & 20.1 from 297 degrees and 27.1 & 66.1 from 162 degrees. If you find a location that is best for 27.1 & 66.1, then the other 3 should be OK because they are stronger. You will need to do some experimentation. You can extend the coax from the antenna with an F-81 coupler and some more RG6 coax to try different locations. I suggest a rabbit ears (VHF) and loop (UHF) antenna, like the Radio Shack #15-1874 if you can get it where you are:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 


F-81 couplers:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103459 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103648 


There is also a local reception thread for your area on the Canadian forum:
*ON - Ottawa, Vanier, Gloucester, Orleans - OTA*
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...126059&page=44


----------



## OSUBuckly

Hi everybody.


Looking for some recommendations on an indoor antenna. I live on the 5th floor of a sixth floor apartment building in Astoria, Queens, NY. I don't think any roof mounting will be possible and the smaller the antenna the better (small apartment). Here is my tvfool graphic:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5747ccef4445e1 


I'd like as many channels as possible, but I'd be happy with the major networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, CW, PBS) with the best quality possible.


Thank you for the help!


----------



## rabbit73

I think you should try the Radio Shack #15-1874 mentioned previously post #3013 using an F-81 coupler and some extra coax to try different locations in your apartment. Don't use an amplified antenna; your signals are so strong they might cause overload. A lot depends upon which side of the building you are on and what other buildings are in the signal path.


The next step up would be a DB2, which is UHF only, but 7, 11, & 13 on VHF might be strong enough to overcome that. If not, then you can connect the rabbit ears for VHF with the DB2 for UHF using a UVSJ (Uhf-Vhf-Splitter-Joiner) which is an inexpensive low-loss device that looks like a 2-way splitter but is designed to combine a VHF antenna with a UHF antenna.


You asked *keyboard21* about the Mohu Antenna in this post , and the *Mohu Antenna* thread is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1334089 


More Mohu info here:
*Mohu Leaf Omni-directional*
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=138226


----------



## OSUBuckly

Quote:

Originally Posted by *rabbit73* 
I think you should try the Radio Shack #15-1874 mentioned previously using an F-81 coupler and some extra coax to try different locations in your apartment. Don't use an amplified antenna; your signals are so strong they might cause overload. A lot depends upon which side of the building you are on and what other buildings are in the signal path.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the purpose of the F-81 coupler or coax? I'm new to antennas (trying to ditch cable) and I'm basically starting from scratch.


----------



## LithOTA

Quote:

Originally Posted by *OSUBuckly*
Forgive me ignorance, but what is the purpose of the F-81 coupler or coax? I'm new to antennas (trying to ditch cable) and I'm basically starting from scratch.
It's a connector so you can add more length to the cable. Then you can try other spots in the room to hunt for signal.

Indoors, even a few inches left, right, up, down, in, or out can be the difference between 0 and perfect signal. Since indoor antennas usually have just a short cable attached, you need an "extension cord".


----------



## deltaguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by *OSUBuckly* 
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the purpose of the F-81 coupler or coax? I'm new to antennas (trying to ditch cable) and I'm basically starting from scratch.
The cable on the RS 15-1874 is 4 feet long. You can try the antenna without extra coax first if you choose. That's not a problem. If you do, check for WABC, WNET, and WPIX. If these channels, broadcasting on the VHF band, fail to come in, extra coax can help. VHF signals suffer from interference produced by electronics. This can include your television. Good Luck.


----------



## conquistador

I'm currently using an Antennas Direct DB2 for UHF and a Radio Shack 15-1874 for a single VHF station. They are feeding an HDHomerun dual tuner, with the DB2 connected to one tuner and the 15-1874 connected to the other tuner. I'm getting acceptable reception on all the channels I care about, so this is working reasonably well.


However, instead of devoting one tuner to UHF stations and one tuner to the VHF station, I'd like each tuner to have access to both the UHF and VHF stations. One option is to combine the signals with a UVSJ and then split them. Another option is to replace my two antennas with a single UHF/VHF antenna, such as the Winegard SS-3000 or the RCA ANT751. Having a single antenna would make for a cleaner setup, but the UVSJ would be cheaper. I'm mostly interested in what will be most reliable, though. What would you suggest I try? Other options I haven't considered are welcome as well.


Here is my tvfool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5747657a13113e 


I'm interested in WUNC, WTVD, WRDC, WLFL, WRAL, WRAZ, and WNCN. Both antennas are pointed at about 120 degrees where the majority of the towers are. Below are signal strengths and signal/noise qualities as reported by my HDHomerun software just now:


UHF with DB2 antenna:

WUNC ss=100 snq=100

WRAL ss=89 snq=99

WNCN ss=86 snq=100

WLFL ss=80 snq=77

WRDC ss=79 snq=73

WRAZ ss=80 snq=89


VHF with 15-1874 antenna:

WTVD ss= 85 snq=62 (usually the snq is around 80...not sure why it is so low right now)


Thanks for any thoughts you have!


----------



## deltaguy

Combining two antennas can introduce multipath and hurt reliability. Splitting an antennas signal definitely hurts reliability. You might be able to get away with it though. It's impossible to know. You might try splitting the signal from your DB2. You wouldn't have ABC, but you could add an a-b switch for that. I'd replace the RS budget with a more substantial pair of rabbit ears.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Combining the DB2 and the 1874 via UVSJ is fine. There is no disadvantage in doing so as opposed to trying to combine the antennas with a simple splitter as a "combiner". When combined with the UVSJ, the 1874's rabbit ears become the only functional element that is in use. If you can find a "more substantial set of rabbit ears", good luck...



Try the splitter to share the combined signal with each port of your tuner. The worse that can happen is that you loose some reception and may need to add an amplifier.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/20506477
> 
> 
> Combining the DB2 and the 1874 via UVSJ is fine. There is no disadvantage in doing so as opposed to trying to combine the antennas with a simple splitter as a "combiner". When combined with the UVSJ, the 1874's rabbit ears become the only functional element that is in use. If you can find a "more substantial set of rabbit ears", good luck...
> 
> 
> 
> Try the splitter to share the combined signal with each port of your tuner. The worse that can happen is that you loose some reception and may need to add an amplifier.



Radio Shack sells a more substantial set of rabbit ears. I'd ask friends or relatives for a pair first. Using the 4-screw UVSJ they sell for rabbit ears/ bowtie, my uhf reception here was greatly less reliable. I wouldn't assume anything.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Using the 4-screw UVSJ they sell for rabbit ears/ bowtie, my uhf reception here was greatly less reliable. I wouldn't assume anything.



Those old 300-ohm UVSJs aren't very good for digital. Radio Shack sells a 75-ohm coax-cable unit that looks like a standard splitter but the two ports are marked for each band, for about six bucks. The two antenna's signals are mixed into one output with very little loss, as opposed to a plain splitter.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20506825
> 
> 
> Those old 300-ohm UVSJs aren't very good for digital. Radio Shack sells a 75-ohm coax-cable unit that looks like a standard splitter but the two ports are marked for each band, for about six bucks. The two antenna's signals are mixed into one output with very little loss, as opposed to a plain splitter.



You're absolutely right about not very good. I wonder why. The old-time rabbit ears are still a solid vhf performer. The bowtie is still a solid uhf performer. But, the old-time combiner is nothing but trouble. This is why my feeling is, try a uhf antenna alone first. If you add something and signal is lost, you know it.


----------



## conquistador




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/20505940
> 
> 
> You might try splitting the signal from your DB2. You wouldn't have ABC, but you could add an a-b switch for that.



If I understand correctly what an a-b switch is, that won't work for my situation. I'm using software to schedule recordings off the antennas, so I need to be able to go back and forth between stations in software, not manually.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/20506477
> 
> 
> Try the splitter to share the combined signal with each port of your tuner. The worse that can happen is that you loose some reception and may need to add an amplifier.



Do you think the DB2 + 1874 + UVSJ + amp + splitter offers any advantage besides cost over an amplified UHF/VHF antenna plus a splitter? Should I expect the SS-3000 (or other amplified combo antennas) to perform as well as the DB2 for UHF and as well as the 1874 for VHF?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/20506553
> 
> 
> Radio Shack sells a more substantial set of rabbit ears.



Are you talking about their amplified dipole/loop (the 15-254)? I'm not seeing other indoor antennas on their website I'd call more substantial rabbit ears.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/20506884
> 
> 
> This is why my feeling is, try a uhf antenna alone first. If you add something and signal is lost, you know it.



That's a good point. I can try splitting just my UHF antenna and then just my VHF antenna to see how much of an impact the splitter will have. I know I'll be splitting one way or another, so that will give me an idea of whether I need an amp. Although if I do need an amp, I'm inclined to just try an amplified UHF/VHF to start with to cut down on the clutter of components.


----------



## deltaguy

conquistador,


The SS-3000 is probably equal to the 1874 on vhf. It is not an equal to the DB2 for uhf. That doesn't mean it can't work for you. If splitting the DB2 stills gives plenty of signal, trying the SS-3000 might work.


The vhf dipoles at RS look like this when in use: www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitearinhand.gif I forget the model number. Ask friends and relatives first. They may have lots of them.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/20506884
> 
> 
> You're absolutely right about not very good. I wonder why. The old-time rabbit ears are still a solid vhf performer.



It's because twin-lead is bad for ATSC (unless it's done properly). Obviously you need some twin-lead on pigtail-type baluns, but it's best to get the signal into 75-ohm coax as soon as possible.


----------



## Fenderskirt66

Hey all! First off - name is Kelly from Wichita, KS and look forward to becoming a regular contributor here at AVS. I am currently in the market for a OTA attic solution that will service 3-4 HDTV's with various length runs between 20 - 100 feet. My house is typical 60's ranch construction and my shingles are composite mounted to tar paper on slat \\ plywood. I don't mine ponying up a little extra for a larger antenna if you think it will make a difference in my situation. Would prefer to buy the Ant local versus online.


I am not allowed to post URL's yet so couldn't give you my TV Fool results unfortunately. My stations are both VHF and UHF and range from 3 miles to 38 miles. Most are in the green zone, and 3 are in the yellow zone.


Anyhow, thanks in advance folks!


Kelly


----------



## Fenderskirt66

Here's a copy of my TVFool for those who don't mind lending a hand-


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20507949
> 
> 
> It's because twin-lead is bad for ATSC (unless it's done properly). Obviously you need some twin-lead on pigtail-type baluns, but it's best to get the signal into 75-ohm coax as soon as possible.



Rabbit ears (w/twin-lead) and bowtie (w/twin-lead) both work fine. I think it has to be the combiner (RS 150-1297a). It looks like they've discontinued it.


----------



## guitarfish1

Wow,I wish I had it so good! You could build a mclapp 4 bay and add a preamp to drive the 3 or 4 tv's.Something like this:

http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweath...0Drawings.html 

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=615798396145 


Be sure to check out this thread and re post your tvfool results.Lots of good diy info.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...98265&page=155 


Hope this helps.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

New antenna spotted. Resembles the excellent Digitenna DUV-S Suburban.

*RCA or Audiovox AT3022*


----------



## LithOTA

I'm not sure if this is for real. The Amazon listing refers to an indoor, amplified antenna.

The blue insulators and the dipole shape looks like Antennacraft to me. Have you found this thing anywhere else?

Also, in this photo, it looks like tha antenna is up-side-down. Who attaches directors to the bottom of the boom?


----------



## theroys88

So far I have tried several antennas in my location. A RS 1892 UFO which did pick up all of my locals but did not help with multipath. A DB2 which also did poor with multipath. The newest RS amplified indoor antenna-similiar to the UFO. No model number just a part number. Pretty close to the UFO in performance. The thing I did not like about both was not knowing the direction in relationship to the 1-12 position numbers. The silver sensor is by far the best indoor antenna. Hands down. It really is quite impressive. I am able to get 100% reception on all my locals.


----------



## theroys88

If anyone is interested in any of these antennas except the silver sensor. they are for sale. I also have the 2bay attached to a paper towel holder which works great. The author of this thread had different results but that is typical of what I have seen. Each location is unique to digital reception. At my last location, the silver sensor was a bust. Just did not get rid of it and pulled it out of storage. PM if you are interested.


----------



## gmcjetpilot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theroys88* /forum/post/20590614
> 
> 
> If anyone is interested in any of these antennas except the silver sensor. they are for sale. I also have the 2bay attached to a paper towel holder which works great. The author of this thread had different results but that is typical of what I have seen. Each location is unique to digital reception. At my last location, the silver sensor was a bust. Just did not get rid of it and pulled it out of storage. PM if you are interested.



I have the Amplified version made by AudioVox/Terk HDTVa.... it comes with the "log periodic" flying wings for UHF and some massive rabbit ears and amplifier. I am very happy. It is like the Silver Sensor, but the SS is not amplified and is UHF only I recall. I have unplugged the Terk HDTVa amplified and it's still works for the main stations 20 miles away, but it does need the amplifier. I can image the Silver Sensor is good for UHF 25 miles (depending)? Note the Terk HDTVi is NOT amplified, so if you want a good indoor antenna, the Terk indoor antenna HDTVa is a good one. Of course no indoor antenna is as good as outdoor. I get stations 50 miles out with the Terk HDTVa.


However I just recently bought a cheap China made HDTV rotor antenna on iPay.... I'll let you all know how it compares. The biggest down side of the Terk is a place to put it. I don't really want to see it. Also I can't aim it at one station (because of a wall and lack of perch to sit it upon. Most stations are for the most part all in one direction.


This cheap antenna is in route right now.. I got the top one. It has a little more gain (at what Freq not sure). It has one or two more elements. Any experience with either?











Reading what little there is, people say they "WORK". The biggest complaint is some parts being made of plastic, may be will not weather well? It would be fine for the attic, which is my intent. The other issue is the rotor, you don't know the direction. It controller is just two buttons, turn CW or CCW. If you can't see the antenna, you don't know the direction. With digital, unlike analog, there is some delay to processes the signal. It rotates pretty fast. Not sure if this will be an issue for me. I am thinking I will mostly have it parked and only need to move it for two stations. However with this antenna I think I will get more stations, requiring more aiming.

*Terk HDTVa verses China HDTV Rotor Antenna to come.* If the china antenna works it will go in the attic. I will sell the Terk or use it for another TV>


----------



## gmcjetpilot

Well I got WA980TG and it works but a few comments:



















1) the antenna has a coaxial that is attached permanently and terminates in a plug that goes into the "controller".... but it's not a F-connector... So to extend the cable will be an issue until I figure out what kind of plug it is (kind of like a RCA but NOT!).


2) It is smaller than I thought but it went together well.
23" long

18" tall

33" wide (vhf dipole)

13" width (smaller elements)


3) The bummer is I think I got a bad controller/rotor? The rotor works; I expected it to be ambiguous since it just rotates 359 and stops and goes back the the other way to the other stop. Well fair enough, you don't know the exact direction. The bummer part is the two buttons that rotate CW or CCW don't seem to work or their function sometimes is confusing... where both buttons will make it go CCW for example. In fact it likes to go CCW more than CW. Some times it does nothing when I push either button. Occasionally it moves on it's own (I think having it too close to the TV might cause that; there is a note to keep it away from the TV). I have seen videos on YoutTube showing the rotor operation, and this is not normal. Too bad. eBay is good. I could return it. May be they will give me a discount off my big $26. It does not weigh much.... figure it will cost about $6 to return it. I have seen youtube videos and this is not the norm... but it's China QC I suppose.


4) It is directional but apparently receives FANTASTIC off the sides? I don't know why but it just does. For simplification of discussion most of my stations are East of me, and are the strongest. The next batch are West, they are a little weaker except for one, PBS, very strong. The one odd ball of interested in is to the North-NE. If I aim at the station North-NE (which is weaker) I pretty much get all the stations East and West.... except one of the weaker ones West. Ironically Turing the antenna West doesn't help, but turning it North (so the side is facing the station works for that station. It could be because the antenna is on a stand, back yard, close to the house. May be it's multi-path reflection?


5) I have serious doubts about putting this in the attic, not knowing the direction it's facing, flaky operation (works does not work). Unlike Analog where you could rotate until the picture came in and stop does not work with digital, because digital takes time to process and lock on.


6) The little amplifier controller gets hot. One thing I don't like is having to have the POWER amplifier and controller that gets hot. You can turn it off when not in use, but getting a bigger more efficient antenna that does not need an amplifier is better I think, unless you are in a fringe area and have multi TV and need an amplifier. I am sure the commercial in-line amplifiers are not going to get hot like this WA980TG china made deal. (To be fair the Terk HDTVa is made in china, but it's amplifier is a very small in-line afair and is cool to touch).


7) The Terk HDTVa indoor antenna works about the same if I aim it. I highly recommend the Terk HDTVa (not the HDTVi) for a good indoor antenna. My guess is the HDTVa outside side by side with the WA980TG will match it. From what A vs B comparison I have done, the Terk HDTVa inside has a tad less signal than the WA980TG outside and aimed. I must say when the the WA980TG on my strong stations East (about 20 miles) it pegs the strength meter on the Sony. The TV card SNR is pushing 30. This week end I might take the Terk HDTVa outside and compare the two. I have some RG6 and coupler to extend it the HDTVa coaxial, plus power outlets outside.


The best deal is get a good "Channel Master" or "Antenna Direct" (in UHF or VHF flavor needed), a real rotor with the cardinal headings you can set exactly. However for $26 it is not bad. Frankly with it in one direction it does what I need.... It is kind of like a three way antenna Front, Sides, which ironically or dumb luck works for me. *If the rotor was working as expected (I think I have a bum one) I would be happy for what it is. If you can put the antenna so you can see it, then it would "work". I am thinking it's a fancy indoor antenna. Put it in a walk in closet, however it does a little better outside than in of course.* I have tried both, but don't think this can take extreme weather for more than a year or two? Right now it's in the living room near the front window. It works but not for a permanent outdoor deal (attic OK)..... I figure a real rotor, antenna, cables, hardware will be about $200. Very tempting at under $30. It was fun to play with, might make a nice FM radio antenna... as it seemed to do well there... but again a dedicated FM Yagi would likely outperform it.


*UPDATE EDIT:*

Well I sent it back and they gave me a full refund including the return shipping..... I recommend Hootoodeal on eBay if you want to try it.


IT WAS NOT A BAD ANTENNA.... There was something wrong with this ones rotor. It was a decent antenna for reception, but not any better than the HDTVa Terk when I move it around in the house for optimal direction...... However I wanted a quantum leap and this was not it. I would have kept it for FM, which it did pretty well at, but the rotor was squirrelly, moved by it self.


If you want the real deal I recommend you buy the VHF or UHF antenna of choice and a REAL rotor. There is a single coaxial rotor (no rotor wire) on the market, that you can set to a specific direction.... It is not too much money. Also you can by separate amplifier if you need a little boost.... it will all cost way more than $30, but it will give you max range....



As requested the stations. The LP ones that don't list a Virt Channel not sure

about. I get some stations that I am not sure about, most likely LP ones.


Furthest or lowest signal I get (according to this est) 48.1 MyNC, comes in nicely.

16.1 ION, once but was not reliable. I just don't have a good unobstructed shot at

stations to the NW from inside my house, especially where the TV is. I already get

PBS and ION in other directions which are clear, so no worries.


With the Terk HDTVa I get most stations with antenna at about 230 degrees,

including channel 48.1 and the main near bunch at 122-124 degrees To get

47.1 ION at 72 degrees I have to aim it more or less at it.


----------



## jmsnyc

How can I tell if coaxial cable up to par? I have 75 ohm cable from the cable company... are there any other markings I should be looking for?


Thanks.


----------



## gmcjetpilot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmsnyc* /forum/post/20641269
> 
> 
> How can I tell if coaxial cable up to par? I have 75 ohm cable from the cable company... are there any other markings I should be looking for? Thanks.



Not really about the HDTV antenna round up, but you can't. If there is no marking and you have no history you don't know. It could be 50 ohm or 75 ohm. Chance is it's 75 ohm. Up to par? There is no free lunch you have to pay for high quality RG6.... most of the stuff sold to consumers is pretty poor quality. In short runs of say less than 30 to 50 feet it does not matter too much. However the better quality stuff will have less attenuation of signal, even cheap stuff works. It just depends on what you want to spend.


If it high quality it will have markings. If it has nothing assume it is crap.


----------



## Dave Loudin

gmcjetpilot, without a TVFool report for your location that shows how much signal is "in the air" for the antennas to pick up, we really can't tell much about the antennas you are testing. Please post the URL, not just a screen grab.


While I'm at it, whether the HDTVi or the HDTVa is a better solution depends on how much signal is available. People living only a few miles from transmitters have had disasterous results with the _a_ version because the amplifier was totally overloaded.


----------



## jmsnyc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gmcjetpilot* /forum/post/20641940
> 
> 
> Not really about the HDTV antenna round up, but you can't. If there is no marking and you have no history you don't know. It could be 50 ohm or 75 ohm. Chance is it's 75 ohm. Up to par? There is no free lunch you have to pay for high quality RG6.... most of the stuff sold to consumers is pretty poor quality. In short runs of say less than 30 to 50 feet it does not matter too much. However the better quality stuff will have less attenuation of signal, even cheap stuff works. It just depends on what you want to spend.
> 
> 
> If it high quality it will have markings. If it has nothing assume it is crap.



so basically if its rg59, its crap but rg6 is fine? I have cable from Time Warner, with E86432, googling shows Belden rg6


i had some 25' coaxial that are really old with rg59 that was carrying my antenna signal - it might have been fine but I am going to use the Time Warner cable (no pun intended) instead


----------



## arch12

hey Escape Velocity, great thread. However, 102 pages? LOL.


I managed to get through the first several and it's clear you and some of the regs here know your stuff. I noticed that you periodically had a ranking of preferred indoor antennas but I don't see anything like this in the last several pages.


Could you update your rankings please? Perhaps by effectiveness and/or value and any other important variables.


Anyone else that can help in this regard... much appreciated. Cheers.


----------



## arch12

I've done a little more research and I'm surprised to see you prefer the RS 1880 over the CM 4220 and DB2 (both unamped indoors). Seriously?


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmsnyc* /forum/post/20649681
> 
> 
> so basically if its rg59, its crap but rg6 is fine?



All general statements are false, including this one ...


There is RG6 that is worse than RG59 ... but in general, losses are lower and shielding is better with RG6. Both are nominally 75 ohm characteristic impedance.


Just for grins, I went to Belden's website and looked at their appropriate cables. I picked the single 700 MHz figure as that is near the top of cable TV.


The Belden 59 products have 700 MHz loss (per 100 meters) ranging from 23 to 38 dB ... that's a difference in power loss of about 35:1 ... yeah ...


Their 6 product line varies from 17.4 to 26.6. So some 59 is better than some 6 ... from a normally accepted VERY GOOD manufacturer.


(then you can look at the RG11 and find these in the 10-15 dB loss ...)


It is my understanding, never proven, that some of the RG6 is very bad, worse than most RG59. Get product made for the cable companies or made by the major manufacturers ... Times, Belden, CommScope are just 3 that come to mind.


And remember ... TINSTAAFL.


----------



## EdT586

Any review on the CM4040 ?

Would be interested on how it compares with the ZSS and the Phillips SS. It looks like the exact antenna as the Supersonic SC602.
http://www.supersonicinc.com/index.c...ctID/3,3877325 


I imported a dozen CM4040 and so far they pick up DTV signals better in condos and apartments that do not have LOS with the transmitting towers by 2-3 channels more compared to a rabbit ear/UHF loop antenna.


----------



## sannathan

Is this antenna any good? I am in the north shore of Lake Ontario. Will this pick up channels from Buffalo and Toronto/Rochester?


----------



## Grayson73

My grandma lives on the first floor of an apartment complex and I'm looking for the best indoor antenna. Size can be up to 2 feet by 2 feet.


The channel that she cares most about is the Chinese channel, 30.3. I'm not sure if that's WNVC-DT or WNVT-DT. I've attached the tvfool.


Any suggestions?


----------



## Dave Loudin

You need to be careful to not overload the TV's tuner. A simple UHF loop with rabbit ears should suffice. She should not have any trouble picking up real channel 24 that carries the sub channel you are looking for.


----------



## Grayson73

Do you know what the best UHF loop with rabbit ears would be? That would be better than the Channel Master 4220 and 4221 and DB2/DB4?


----------



## rabbit73

Many people with a similar situation like the Radio Shack Catalog #: 15-1874:
www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077 


What EV said to you in Dec of '08:
www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15379998#post15379998 post 1142


The antennas that you listed are UHF antennas, but they might work for 7 & 9; their sharp wires are a safety hazard.


It might be necessary to try different locations in the apartment for the antenna, in which case you might want to extend the coax with an F-81 coupler and another length of RG6.


----------



## jmsnyc

I have a Terk Indoor HDTVa VHF/UHF antenna.


If I split the cable and run one to an FM radio would that work to improve radio reception or would that just interfere with my tv signals?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmsnyc* /forum/post/20692766
> 
> 
> I have a Terk Indoor HDTVa VHF/UHF antenna.
> 
> 
> If I split the cable and run one to an FM radio would that work to improve radio reception or would that just interfere with my tv signals?



It would either 1) work or 2) not work.


Give it a try and see.


----------



## holl_ands

You're better off using a separate antenna for the FM Radio since a splitter will

lose about 4 dB of signal strength going to the TV and the FM Radio.


You could use another set of Rabbit Ears, with each extended to about 30-in.

Or buy/build an FM Dipole Antenna: http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 
http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-.../dp/B000M9EREE 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062691 


The Terk, as well as the above antennas have bi-directional patterns, so

they have NULLS towards the line of the antenna. A Monopole antenna

(e.g. an old-school car antenna) does not have this problem, although it

has slightly lower Gain. You can make your own by simply cutting off a

piece of wire 30-in long, strip the insulation off of one end and poke it into

the center hole of the coax input on the FM Radio. Hang it VERTICALLY.


If you want to locate this antenna away from the FM Radio for better

signal pickup (higher is usually better), you could run a coax to the

desired location and connect via a back-to-back coax adapter.


Keep antennas away from electronics, and as always: *Location, Location, Location*


----------



## JLennerth

I am thinking about getting a new HD TV and selling my old rear projection HD tv to my aunt and uncle. They however are not going to spend extra money each month in order to upgrade to digital cable. Is this what they would need to get NBC,CBS,ABC, and, Fox via over the air HD reception? http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified...2646427&sr=1-1 


Would they need anything else besides that? Lastly, my HD tv is older and has only 1 HDMI input. Does that antennae hook up into the hdmi input or the input where a direct cable line would hook in?


----------



## holl_ands

To determine signal strengths, enter their location into www.tvfool.com and then copy/paste

the results URL (e.g. http://. .....) into a post in this thread.


It also helps to know whether they are in a house or an apartment complex.


----------



## TalkingRat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gmcjetpilot* /forum/post/20628478
> 
> 
> ... I have unplugged the Terk HDTVa amplified and it's still works for the main stations 20 miles away, but it does need the amplifier.



Note that the Terk HDTVa directions tell you not to unplug the power. It has a toggle on/off switch.


----------



## JLennerth




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/20791964
> 
> 
> To determine signal strengths, enter their location into www.tvfool.com and then copy/paste
> 
> the results URL (e.g. http://. .....) into a post in this thread.
> 
> 
> It also helps to know whether they are in a house or an apartment complex.



They own their own house.


----------



## JLennerth

I didn't know how high the antenna would be so I left it blank. It would be an in-door one that just sits on top or near their tv if that helps.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/20791964
> 
> 
> To determine signal strengths, enter their location into www.tvfool.com and then copy/paste
> 
> the results URL (e.g. http://. .....) into a post in this thread.
> 
> 
> It also helps to know whether they are in a house or an apartment complex.





41.351013,-81.606741 antenna height: ft (above ground level)


More information and coverage maps can be viewed by clicking on the radio button next to the transmitters below. For more information about the numbers and what they mean, please see our Signal Analysis FAQ.

Display options: Current Pending Both Show lines pointing to each transmitter

Red = Analog, Green = Digital, Thick lines = stronger signal

Overlays off

Predicted Channel Availability (Current)

Analog Digital

Callsign Chan Network Dist

(mi) Path NM

(dB)

WXOX-LP 6 11.2 LOS 42.5

W35AX 35 5.1 LOS 40.1

WCDN-LP 53 5.1 LOS 33.6

WAKN-LP 11 19.8 2Edge 13.4

WAOH-LP 29 RTV 21.3 2Edge 12.9

W51BI 51 18.0 2Edge 10.0

WRAP-CA 32 9.1 1Edge -6.2


Callsign Chan Network Dist

(mi) Path NM

(dB)

WKYC-DT 17 (3.1) NBC 4.9 LOS 76.1

WQHS-DT 34 (61.1) Uni 5.4 LOS 72.3

WVIZ-DT 26 (25.1) PBS 4.9 LOS 67.4

WBNX-TV 30 (55.1) CW 5.1 LOS 67.0

WEWS-TV 15 (5.1) ABC 6.0 LOS 64.7

WOIO-DT 10 (19.1) CBS 5.2 LOS 64.4

WUAB-DT 28 (43.1) MyN 6.2 LOS 58.0

WJW-DT 8 (8.1) Fox 5.7 LOS 55.8

WCDN-LD 7 5.1 LOS 49.4

WRAP-CA 32 (32.1) 11.3 LOS 48.9

WVPX-DT 23 (23.1) ION 19.8 2Edge 37.1

WDLI-TV 49 (17.1) Ind 20.4 2Edge 36.4

WRLM 47 (67.1) 21.9 2Edge 34.6

WEAO -- 50 (49.1) PBS 18.6 1Edge 30.6

WOIO 24 CBS 19.8 2Edge 20.3

W51BI 51 (51.1) 18.0 2Edge 14.5

WNEO-DT 45 (45.1) PBS 47.5 2Edge 4.7

WKBN-TV 41 CBS 54.1 2Edge 4.3

WFMJ-DT 20 (21.1) NBC 53.7 2Edge -4.8

WYTV -- 36 (33.1) ABC 54.4 2Edge -12.9

WIVM-LD -- 39 (52.1) 37.5 2Edge -13.9

WGGN-DT 42 (52.1) Ind 48.0 2Edge -14.9

W63CT 38 (63.1) 37.4 2Edge -18.6


A icon next to a station's callsign means a coverage map is available for this transmitter.

Background color Estimated signal strength

Green An indoor "set-top" antenna is probably sufficient to pick up these channels

Yellow An attic-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level and above

Red A roof-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level and above

Grey These channels are very weak and will most likely require extreme measures to try and pick them up



About the signal strengths and coverage overlays


- They DO take into account the transmitter power, frequency, antenna pattern, and height

- They DO account for propagation losses due to terrain

- They DO account for curvature of the Earth

- They DO NOT take into account your antenna gain, amps, or receiver sensitivity

- They DO NOT account for building obstructions or indoor penetration

- They DO NOT account for multipath


In very rough terms, the coverage map colors can be broken down as follows (not related to CEA antenna colors):


- White is extremely strong. Beware of signal overload on amps.

- Red-yellow-green are all quite strong. You can expect reasonable coverage with an indoor antenna.

- Cyan is where it's advisable to move the antenna up to the second floor or attic.

- Blue is where it's probably necessary to install a good antenna on the roof.

- Purple is quite weak and you really have to work at it for any chance of reception.


Please understand that this is a simulation and can only be treated as a rough approximation. Reception at your location is affected by many factors such as multipath, antenna gain, receiver sensitivity, buildings, and trees - which are not taken into account. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

JLenerth,


Based on the lat/lon coordinates in your cut and past, a simple UHF loop/VHF rabbit ears placed in a west-facing window should do fine for the Cleveland stations. Do not use any amplifier of any sort. You could selected the unamplified version of the antenna you asked about, but the inexpensive option would likely do fine.


Here's the link to the useful data plot: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...3e473032dea971 


Antennas get connected to the coaxial input. However, you must make certain the older set actually has a digital tuner instead of an analog-only tuner for antenna to work these days. Digital tuners were supposed to be required in larger (>25") sets sold after March 2006. If the set was purchased before then, you'll have to dig up the specifications and see what they say.


----------



## Jiffylush

tv fool - http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...3e47bec5ba0cc0 


I am cancelling the TV part of my uverse today and will be using Netflix and Hulu Plus for almost everything that we watch. The main exception will be football, so I am looking to buy an antenna for the local channels.


I am planning on trying a small unamplified antenna from either Radio Shack or Best Buy so I can test it out this weekend. I would like to be able to put it behind the TV if possible, as the piece of furniture it is on is isolated and the space available due to the size of the TV is limited.


Do you have any recommendations or advice for me?


----------



## Dave Loudin

Two factors:

1) the NBC and CBS affiliates come from a different direction than everything else


2) one of the PBS stations is the only VHF-hi station


I'd start with a basic loop/rabbitears combo. The best orientation will likely have the plane of the loop directly north/south (looking through the loop would be east/west). Going with a more directive antenna like the HDTVi would likely force you to move the antenna between the two azimuths depending on what station you want to tune to.


If you don't care about WTVI, then you don't need to worry about the rabbit ears.


I'd suggest a real easy 2-bay bowtie antenna with no reflector screen if the loop doesn't work. See this site for instructions.


----------



## LithOTA

The Clear Stream Micron XG (with the reflector) might be a next step if multipath is a problem. It's very small, but has a lot of directivity. It would not get the VHF station.

The FOX should come in even when pointed towards the CBS and NBC, so you should be set for Sundays.


----------



## videobruce

AFAIC, the:

"Terrestrial Digital DB2 - Double Bow Tie (AntennasDirect, Eagle Aspen, and others)"

antenna is the best bang for the buck. *At least the Eagle Aspen version.* The reflector can be removed and it mounted on a wooden made 'stand for a very non intrusive indoor antenna. The 3rd attachemnt is a side view with the reflector. For $13 (best price I found), you can't beat it other the the original 'Sliver Sensor', the standard others can be based on.










Of course, both of these are UHF only (for the most part). Forget using any UHF antenna on the VHF low band unless you are a very short distance away.

_Just what did you do with all those antennas in the OP two year ago??_


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> AFAIC, the:
> 
> "Terrestrial Digital DB2 - Double Bow Tie (AntennasDirect, Eagle Aspen, and others)"
> 
> antenna is the best bang for the buck. At least the Eagle Aspen version. The reflector can be removed and it mounted on a wooden made 'stand for a very non intrusive indoor antenna. The 3rd attachemnt is a side view with the reflector. For $13 (best price I found), you can't beat it other the the original 'Sliver Sensor', the standard others can be based on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, both of these are UHF only (for the most part). Forget using any UHF antenna on the VHF low band unless you are a very short distance away.
> 
> 
> Just what did you do with all those antennas in the OP two year ago??



The DB2 and DB4 are going to be replaced soon (late this year, according to Antennas Direct). While slightly larger than the current model, the new DB2 will still be indoor-able, and the early claims say 13dBi of gain. This could be a game-changer for indoor and balcony installs.

Unfortunately, the new models will run in the $60-80 range, and I don't think there will be a bargain Eagle Aspen version.


----------



## LithOTA

Here's a photo. The closed loops will eliminte the poking hazard.


----------



## tylerSC

While the info here made not be all scientific or based on facts and specific figures, it nevertheless can be heplful when evaluating which indoor antennas have worked and which have not. Of course, it all depends upon location and signal strength which will vary from area to area. Most of the Walmart/Target type of indoor antennas are overpriced and do not perform very well, so a step up to the RadioShack basic rabbit ears/loop is a starting suggestion. If a stronger antenna is needed, the Terk HDTVi/HDTVa is a recommended option. And other outdoor antennas that work very well indoors are the previously mentioned DB2, or the CM4220 version. And the Eagle Aspen model is the best priced. Also, the Clearstream 1 has proven to work very well, and the Mohu Leaf antenna is the only flat panel antenna that apparently is designed well. I have tried all of these antennas except the Mohu, and can report from my experience that they all work well but results will vary from person to person, and UHF vs VHF capabilities may be a consideration. What is key is patience and experimentation.


----------



## videobruce

Someone really didn't like the OP's results.

(one thing nice about instant notification, any post deleted afterwards still shows in the e-mail







)


The problem with evaluating any antenna is reflections, especially indoors. It's doubtful anyone is able to produce a 'test area' that doesn't have reflections and own a ATSC signal generator with the appropriate transmit antenna.










Using OTA signals vary to much. I see signal levels vary 10db within an hour at times from distant stations and as much as 3db with local stations less than 20 miles away. It's impossible to take readings under those changing conditions.


----------



## Clint S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/20873425
> 
> 
> Someone really didn't like the OP's results.
> 
> 
> (one thing nice about instant notification, any post deleted afterwards still shows in the e-mail
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )



Not if you haven't visited the forum since the previous email notification. I missed it.


----------



## videobruce

I deleted the notification after I clicked on the link before I visited the thread as I usually do.









And I thought I got mad.


----------



## dattier

You didn't miss anything, Clint.  It added nothing to the discussion.


----------



## dagger666

Have you check out "The Leaf" yet, pretty neat and works better than the Winegard SS-3000 Amplified Indoor UHF/VHF Antenna.


----------



## TalkingRat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20864455
> 
> 
> The DB2 and DB4 are going to be replaced soon (late this year, according to Antennas Direct). While slightly larger than the current model, the new DB2 will still be indoor-able, and the early claims say 13dBi of gain. This could be a game-changer for indoor and balcony installs.
> 
> Unfortunately, the new models will run in the $60-80 range, and I don't think there will be a bargain Eagle Aspen version.




"Late this year" -- that's what they said last September. Was it a reliable source? AD had posted on TVFool forum, but they have not updated the original last year estimate, saying only it will be announced on their website when it happens.


----------



## asterion

I'm trying (yet again) to find a good indoor antenna. My tvfool info is here: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8387de3d0024aa 


I'm only really interested in the signals to the southwest. I'm at the far end of a row of townhomes, so I've got a lot of interference in the way. That said, a basic pair of rabbit ears has worked okay but I can't get the VHF signals to come in reliably, especially the high VHF. I tried pointing my Terk HDTVa that way without amplifying the signal but I think I get too much multipathing, as it's worse on all channels. Is there a favorite VHF/UHF indoor multi-directional antenna?


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TalkingRat* /forum/post/20908201
> 
> 
> "Late this year" -- that's what they said last September. Was it a reliable source? AD had posted on TVFool forum, but they have not updated the original last year estimate, saying only it will be announced on their website when it happens.



I'm being told "November-ish" is the current forecasted availability. Production is scheduled for sometime in October.


----------



## TalkingRat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/20922036
> 
> 
> I'm being told "November-ish" is the current forecasted availability. Production is scheduled for sometime in October.



Thanks! I guess it's too soon for specs, but I'll keep a close watch now. I have been googling, didn't see anything, and my DSL is so slow, it's essentially 2x dial up.


----------



## ADTech

I've got the specs from the design engineer's simulations.


For the DB2e, computations indicate 9.16 dBi at 475 MHz with a very smooth climb to 11.77 dBi at 698 MHz. Measured SWR ranges from 1.57:1 to 2.26:1, depending on the frequency. My field testing this spring showed it should be pretty close to the simulations.


I'll ask the product manager to include the tech data sheets (like we have on the C5) on the website when it does get added. I'll have to see what she can do.


----------



## TalkingRat

That would be great. Thanks!!


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *asterion* /forum/post/20913954
> 
> 
> I'm trying (yet again) to find a good indoor antenna. My tvfool info is here: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8387de3d0024aa
> 
> 
> I'm only really interested in the signals to the southwest. I'm at the far end of a row of townhomes, so I've got a lot of interference in the way. That said, a basic pair of rabbit ears has worked okay but I can't get the VHF signals to come in reliably, especially the high VHF. I tried pointing my Terk HDTVa that way without amplifying the signal but I think I get too much multipathing, as it's worse on all channels. Is there a favorite VHF/UHF indoor multi-directional antenna?



If you are using the HDTVa with only the cable that came with the antenna, moving the antenna away from electronics can make a huge difference. This can be accomplished by adding a longer coax. VHF signals are hurt the worst. With a wrong-facing window, I've found signals from a single antenna farm here are best received using several radically different aims. 90 and even 180 degrees aim off of "correct" even work. It's aiming for one channel at a time. Good Luck.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *asterion* /forum/post/20913954
> 
> 
> I'm trying (yet again) to find a good indoor antenna. My tvfool info is here: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8387de3d0024aa
> 
> 
> I'm only really interested in the signals to the southwest. I'm at the far end of a row of townhomes, so I've got a lot of interference in the way. That said, a basic pair of rabbit ears has worked okay but I can't get the VHF signals to come in reliably, especially the high VHF. I tried pointing my Terk HDTVa that way without amplifying the signal but I think I get too much multipathing, as it's worse on all channels. Is there a favorite VHF/UHF indoor multi-directional antenna?



This rabbit ear/loop antenna might work better:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 


For either one, getting the antenna away from other electronics and electrical devices will do wonders for reception. VHF is particularly prone to this type of interference. And VHF seldom penetrates walls well. Stone, stucco, brick, concrete or metal walls are the worst. Metal wall studs are VHF killers, too.


Add an additional length of coax, using a barrel splice.
http://i40.tinypic.com/14xgq2r.jpg


----------



## asterion

Thanks for the suggestions. I actually decided to go with the Winegard FreeVision FV-30BB ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003L76BJS ). I assembled it, stuck it on top of my bookshelf next to the TV, and scanned. I got all reasonably-available (not the low-powered) signals in high reception and picture quality. Plus, I can mount it outside in the future.


----------



## modhatter

I second the Moho Leaf. Nothing else for indoors would work for me like it did.


----------



## poiski_duraka

My first post! Here's my project to go over the air reception:


I have room for it in a corner of my living room, so I'm getting the ClearStream2 indoor-outdoor antenna and using its included floor stand. I have three large window in that location as well. My TV is a Sony KDR-34" widescreen monster with an ATSC tuner. OTA hasn't been attempted here (by me) but I'm not too far from the city's broadcast towers, which are almost a dead-straight shot to my LR windows. Will post the results once I have everything installed.


Thanks for the great info everyone!! Especially EV's.


pd

Cedar Rapids

IA


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> so I'm getting the ClearStream2



Consider getting either the C2v or ordering the separate VHF reflector kit if you order the "basic" C2. Three of your major stations are on VHF and they come from opposite directions.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *modhatter* /forum/post/21017481
> 
> 
> I second the Moho Leaf. Nothing else for indoors would work for me like it did.



How many of you have actually tested or used the Mohu Leaf? This antenna came on the market a couple of years after EscapeVelocity's tests, I want to know how well it handles aviation interference near a flight path?


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/21308888
> 
> 
> How many of you have actually tested or used the Mohu Leaf? This antenna came on the market a couple of years after EscapeVelocity's tests, I want to know how well it handles aviation interference near a flight path?



..probably as well (poorly) as any other antenna that isn't particularly directional.


----------



## szurch

I live in Meadville, PA and my local stations come out of Erie about 30 mi away. I have a cheaper set of amp loop and rabbit ears. Reception is spotty and breaks up frequently. I'm looking for something a little more consistant. Here are my tvfool.com results. With my current set up we get 24 and 66 consistently, but 12, 35, and 54 are touch and go. Can someone recommend an attic install or better indoor rig? I prefer not to venture into outdoor setups. We live at the top of a hill with a not much interference. The thing that causes us the most problems right now is the traffic on the road outside. When cars go by we get break-ups. Maybe I only need an additional amplifier? Any suggestions or tips would be much appreciated.


----------



## arxaw

What are the station call letters for channel 54? I don't see it in your TVFool list.


Regarding amps, you should try not amplification at all, as an amp may overload your strong signals or it may amplify electrical or FM radio interference, particularly for channel 12. Try a simple passive indoor antenna and place it in a different locations and heights in the room until you find a hot spot for all channels. Extend the dipole rods about half their length, in a "V". To increase the coax length on coax cables hardwired to an antenna, use a barrel splice to add more coax.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/21308888
> 
> 
> How many of you have actually tested or used the Mohu Leaf? This antenna came on the market a couple of years after EscapeVelocity's tests, I want to know how well it handles aviation interference near a flight path?



Check out this thread for an interesting way of handling multipath:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1372416&page=2 


Post #45 has links to making a blind to protect the antenna from multipath. This might also be able to handle your aviation interference, especially if it is coming from above the antenna. Aluminum foil could be substituted for making a homemade blind as well.


----------



## Louis Bartay

Good information. Thanks


----------



## seatacboy

Is EscapeVelocity still around here? I wanted to ask him if he's had a chance to check out the Mohu Leaf or the Wall-Tenna, both of which were not on the market when he conducted his testing round-up a couple of years ago.


----------



## buellwinkle

The reviews on the Mohu Leaf are like testimonials of a miracle, so I ordered one and see what it can do.


----------



## bigcam406

im curious as well.keep us posted.


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/21450867
> 
> 
> Is EscapeVelocity still around here? I wanted to ask him if he's had a chance to check out the Mohu Leaf or the Wall-Tenna, both of which were not on the market when he conducted his testing round-up a couple of years ago.



There is a review of the Leaf and Wall-Tenna at:

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/?p=1619


----------



## clarkf

Hi all.


Love the thread.


My office is in Irvine Ca 45 mi from LA and 65 from SD. I am in a cement building with tons of computers.

I bought a HDTV box at w mart to go with a 10 year old 13" TV.


To just try it out I got the middle priced indoor rabbit ear antenna with a 6" square in the middle, a Phillips sdv6122/27 powered antenna. It was about 16 bucks and looks just like Quantum Amplified Powered HD/DTV/UHF/VHF/FM 230° Rotating Digital TV Antenna. The antenna sits on a plastic shelf 6 foot high 4 foot over the TV.


I was shocked to have gotten 60 channels. I am getting FOX SD on 11.? and Fox LA. As both LA and SD are in a line I don't have to move the antenna.

I have screened out the info channels and the languages I don't speak and still get 35+

I don't know if I have a freak or what but I love it.


It worked so good I bought a 24" flat screen and I now get a few extra channels.


I would love to hear opinions if I can do better. I told my son I would send an antenna to him at NC State.


Thanks


----------



## wcalifas831

Ok here is my tvfool, any recommendations for what type of antenna I need to get the channels in green?


----------



## arxaw

wcalifas831, welcome.


The budget RS antenna model 15-1874 should work well for your channels of interest. Do not buy an amplified antenna.


If you have problems, it could be from stucco walls, metal roofing, foil insulation in the walls or interference from electronic devices. If interference is suspected, move the antenna away from your electronics (including the TV), until you find a good reception spot. To add longer coax, use a barrel splice . If stucco exterior walls, try the antenna near a window.


----------



## Jack Morris

I live about 43 miles away from the towers in the midst of tall trees, with the city of Houston between me and the towers.


Is there an INDOOR antenna I can use which will get me good reception for all the channels in Green and the CBS(11) and ABC(13) affiliates in Yellow?


I'll post my TV Fool link once I go and post another two times on the forum....


Here is an image in the meantime:










Thanks for the help!


----------



## Jack Morris

Post 2....


----------



## Jack Morris

Post 3...


----------



## Jack Morris

Okay.. hope it works now.


Here is my TV Fool Report: TV Fool Report 


Which INDOOR Antenna will work best for me including the two channels listed in Yellow (CBS 11 and ABC 13)?


Thanks for your help!


----------



## arxaw

Scroll to the bottom of your TVFool report. It says:
_"An attic-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level [yellow] and above"_


----------



## Jack Morris




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21591224
> 
> 
> Scroll to the bottom of your TVFool report. It says:
> _"An attic-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level [yellow] and above"_



Aw Crap... I already have a huge antenna and amp in my attic which i am currently using to pull in the OTA digital to 3 DTV Pals and one Sony DVR. Didn't want to split it again though just to run to a TV in my office, mostly used as background noise during the day. Was using basic cable in there but now you need a Comcast box to watch ANY channels via their cable, even local ones.


How many times can I split an OTA signal before it degrades enough to matter to the tuners in the DTV Pals?


----------



## Louis Bartay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jack Morris* /forum/post/21593291
> 
> 
> Aw Crap... I already have a huge antenna and amp in my attic which i am currently using to pull in the OTA digital to 3 DTV Pals and one Sony DVR. Didn't want to split it again though just to run to a TV in my office, mostly used as background noise during the day. Was using basic cable in there but now you need a Comcast box to watch ANY channels via their cable, even local ones.
> 
> 
> How many times can I split an OTA signal before it degrades enough to matter to the tuners in the DTV Pals?



Not sure on how many feet of cable will pull down the signal strength. I have two rooms going and no amp to boost signal and all is great with a medium size outdoor antenna in my roof. What amp do you have?? I was looking at the two at Radio Shack and thinking about doing this and connecting to the thrid room the cable company ran the cable too.

Post up what you find out if you hook up another room.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jack Morris* /forum/post/21593291
> 
> 
> ...How many times can I split an OTA signal before it degrades enough to matter to the tuners in the DTV Pals?



It depends on how strong the signal is to begin with, how many feet of coax are on the splits and how sensitive your tuners are.


I would try adding a 4th split. If the signal is weak on some channels or on some TVs, or weak at certain times of the day, just add a 4-port distribution amp.
http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master...9SE/ref=sr_1_2


----------



## clarkf

Hi all

If anyone remembers I had that phillips antenna in the office with a tin foil ceiling that was working well with the small diepoles pointed foward towards the channels

The other day it just stopped getting channel 13 (and 1 other) and would only get it when I had the V parallel to the ground and pointed away from the station. That was the exact opposite of what was working. With that setup I had to move it for the other channels. I hope it was just the day but it stayed like that.

I bought just to try a GE 2470 that I knew had diepoles twice the size and I get all the channels in a straight up V shape. (I'll send my son the old one)

Just wondering why it would change like that? Any clues?

Thanks!


----------



## arxaw

DTV reception is either perfect, non-existent or intermittent, depending on signal conditions where you are for the channel you're trying to watch. Odds are, your signal was borderline to begin with, but still over the threshold of signal quality needed to lock onto the borderline stations. When atmospheric or weather conditions changed, the signal dropped below the strength/quality needed to keep a lock on the station. This is called the "cliff effect." Get close enough to the edge and the station falls below the strength needed to be decoded by the tuner.


Similar to a dropped cell call. One minute it's fine, the next minute, gone.


----------



## clarkf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21599740
> 
> 
> DTV reception is either perfect, non-existent or intermittent, depending on signal conditions where you are for the channel you're trying to watch. Odds are, your signal was borderline to begin with, but still over the threshold of signal quality needed to lock onto the borderline stations. When atmospheric or weather conditions changed, the signal dropped below the strength/quality needed to keep a lock on the station. This is called the "cliff effect." Get close enough to the edge and the station falls below the strength needed to be decoded by the tuner.
> 
> 
> Similar to a dropped cell call. One minute it's fine, the next minute, gone.



Thanks


----------



## cburbs

Looking for some suggestions -

I am having issues with my current antenna Winegard HD-1080 2-Bay Bowtie UHF and High Band VHF TV Antenna (HD-1080) mainly with the following channels

2.1/42.1/6.1/24.1 2.1 is the big issue as I am only getting like 55 and if it is rainy/windy it goes down even more. I have tried different locations in the attic and no spots work any batter.


So I am thinking of trying one of these from Frys - any suggestion on which one -

Looks like Frys has a few to choose from -

CM-2020

CM-2018

CM 4228HD

Winegard 7694P

Winegard HD-7697P


I know someone mentioned to look for (HI-VHF/UHF Series Antenna) and the (HD7694P) has that. Also the CM-2020 digital HDTV mentions Hi-VHF.


----------



## arxaw

cburbs,

Please post a link to the TVFool results for your address.


----------



## cburbs

Here are the results.


----------



## sdh5019

Post 1


----------



## sdh5019

Post 2


----------



## sdh5019

Post 3


----------



## sdh5019

Hello all,

I am having an issue with my current setup. Linked is my TVFools Report.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b8625282aa152 


I currently have the Budget Antenna from Radioshack. I am really only concerned about getting CBS, ABC, NBC and Fox. I am currently getting CBS (8.1) but am not getting any signal for ABC (10.1). They are nearly identical signals coming from the same direction and distance. Would a different Indoor antenna improve my reception? Does anyone have recommendations?


I am in an apartment complex so Indoor antennas only.


Thanks.


----------



## ProjectSHO89









Reception in San Diego is pretty dorked up due to the location of the transmitters. Both 8 & 10 come from the same location in La Jolla, so you're either getting interference or multi-path. Given your apartment building is only several blocks from a good sized hill that's blocking your signal, the best you can do is to put the antenna in a NW-facing window (if you have one) and try your luck there. If you're on the other side of the building or have a large building in front of the direction towards La Jolla, you're likely SOL.


You'd do best seeking help in the San Diego section of the forum.


I'm guessing you're in this building or the one next to it... http://binged.it/w9qK92 or very close by.


----------



## arxaw

Have you tried the antenna in different parts of the room (or in different rooms)? You may have interference from something in the vicinity of the TV. Use a barrel splice to add a longer coax to the antenna. Get it away from all electronics, including the TV, and put it near a NW-facing window, if possible. Move it around a few feet at a time until you find a hot spot in the room for the problem channel.


Also, make sure the dipole rods are extended in a "V" - no longer than about half the total length of each rod.


If you have any FM radio stations nearby, they may also be interfering with that pesky VHF station. Check distance/power of nearby FM stations at http://fmfool.com 

If you have nearby FMs, get an FM trap from RS:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...uctId=10939219 

Put it on the back of the TV.


If you are in a stucco building, definitely move the antenna near a window.


----------



## sdh5019

Thanks for the advice. I currently am using a splitter since I had one laying around. I thought if only one side is attached it should perform similar to a barrel plug.


I'll have to try the FM trap. If it doesn't work I can always return it.


I did a little bit of playing around last night and found that the strength of signal for 8.1 is 78 or 79, and the picture comes in perfect. When I play with the antenna a bit, it drops to 76 and gets choppy, and after that completely drops the picture (i'm guessing signal strength below 76). Is signal strength as measured by the TV a industry standard way of doing it, or is it just an arbitrary number that the individual manufacturers assign (like volume)?


Also, it seems like I'm just having too weak a signal. Is there any particular antenna that would improve performance over the radioshack budget antenna, but is still indoor?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sdh5019* /forum/post/21649292
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I currently am using a splitter since I had one laying around. I thought if only one side is attached it should perform similar to a barrel plug.
> 
> 
> Is signal strength as measured by the TV a industry standard way of doing it, or is it just an arbitrary number that the individual manufacturers assign (like volume)?



A splitter reduces signal, regardless of how many TVs you have connected to it. It's the fact that it's a splitter that drops signal across all ports. Get a barrel splice for testing. You will likely find a reception hot spot if you have some patience and a long enough coax to get away from electronics and near a window. An FM trap may help, too.


Signal strength meters in TVs are arbitrary numbers by the manufacturers. Signal to noise ratio is a better measurement of when you will lose a lock on the station. Often, around 16 and above is the magic number.


----------



## sn3511

Attached is the tvfool report. Can you please recommend an indoor antenna?.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b862d229b3e81 


Thanks in advance


----------



## arxaw

For your major network channels in green at the top of the list, this specific RS budget antenna (*model 15-1874*) should be all you need. Don't let the droids at radio shack sell you an amplified antenna, your signal strength is too strong and may overload the amp.


Exceptions to success may be metal or stucco buildings and foil covered wall insulation.


----------



## sn3511

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b862d229b3e81 




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21688935
> 
> 
> For your major network channels in green at the top of the list, this specific RS budget antenna (*model 15-1874*) should be all you need. Don't let the droids at radio shack sell you an amplified antenna, your signal strength is too strong and may overload the amp.
> 
> 
> Exceptions to success may be metal or stucco buildings and foil covered wall insulation.



Thanks arxaw. I got the RS model 15-1874, and am able to get 40 channels.


----------



## arxaw

Glad it worked. Thanks for posting back with your results.

With my 15-1874, I get the 8 stations below reliably. They broadcast a total of 16 sub-channels. I get more stations, during certain weather conditions.


----------



## tle714

I'm looking for an antenna recommendation (indoor or attic install). Here is my tvfool link: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86e26d2f0dd0 


Thanks for the help!


Install question:

I currently have cable running from the outside, into my living room. The line is also split outside - so a cable is also running into my attic and dropped into another room. I was planning to install an antenna in attic and use the existing cables - so one cable would drop into a room and the other cable would run from the attic outside and back into the living room. Do you guys see any issues with that? I'm a bit concerned about any potential issues with the cable running outside back inside and the antenna in the attic.. I believe I don't have to ground the antenna in the attic but am looking for recommendations on what I need to do vs should do vs not worry about.


Thanks so much.


----------



## arxaw

Welcome.


Based on your TVFool report, you have strong signals. A small attic mounted ANT751 , aimed with a compass roughly 320° *N/NW* should get you all the channels in the upper part of the list, shown in green.


You do not need to ground an attic antenna, and with the strong signal strengths, should be able to split it to the two TVs in the way that you mentioned, without any sort of amplification, as long as the coax runs are not excessively long. If re-running the cable directly would reduce cable length significantly, I would consider dropping cables directly from the attic in to the rooms (down through closets is the easiest way) and omitting any attic-to-outdoor-to-indoor run. But try your method first though, as it might work fine. If signal strengths are low, re-run the shorter way.


If there are any unused splitters anywhere in the cable runs, remove those and replace them with a barrel splice . And only use a splitter with no more taps than what you need. IOW, if you only need 2 splits, don't use a 3-way; use a 2-way.


----------



## Zaravana

post 1


----------



## Zaravana

post 2


----------



## Zaravana

Post 3!


----------



## Zaravana

We currently have a antenna outisde but it constantly loses signals & is choppy, ifit gets the channel at all.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86f4952ea4b2 


I only care about the channels in green .. the others dont matter


help please









i would prefer a indoor antenna but outside is fine as long i can get it to work


thank you


Zara


----------



## arxaw

An outdoor antenna should be very reliable at your location, and since you already have a mast mounted outdoors, I would stick with an outdoor antenna. If your current antenna is in good shape, check the aim of it with a compass (it should be aimed roughly due East), then check all the coax connectors on the coax from one end to the other, making sure none are corroded or loose. If there are any unused splitters in the line, remove those.


If no improvement and if your antenna and coax are old, I would suggest replacing the antenna with this small one and replacing all the coax with new RG*6*. Doing this should provide you solid reception of the many local channels shown in green at the top of the list in your TVFool report.


----------



## Zaravana

Thank you Arxaw. We installed this antenna just about a year ago & have issues with it sooo much. We now have neighbors who are constanyly coming & going & the antenna is affected everytime their truck moves.

but will have my husband check the lines tomorrow & make sure its facing the correct way still. Thank you again


----------



## a11u11

Hi there,


I'm looking for a recommendation for an afforable, indoor atenna that will help me get the channels in green and yellow on the linked tvfool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86c969cbdd49 



I'm on the 5th floor of a condo building facing southwest. If I need to get an outdoor antenna to get the channels in yellow, I'd appreciate a recommendation that balances size (I have a small balcony!) and performance. I'd appreciate any help that can be provided.



Thanks!


----------



## arxaw

As TVFool shows, "yellow" channels _may_ require attic or outdoor antenna to be reliably received. For your balcony, I would suggest this small highband VHF+UHF antenna. http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...&condition=new . It would likely give you much more reliable reception with less likelihood of dropouts when you move about indoors, than any indoor antenna could.


----------



## a11u11




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21736821
> 
> 
> As TVFool shows, "yellow" channels _may_ require attic or outdoor antenna to be reliably received. For your balcony, I would suggest this small highband VHF+UHF antenna. http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...&condition=new . It would likely give you much more reliable reception with less likelihood of dropouts when you move about indoors, than any indoor antenna could.



Thanks for your help!


----------



## mho714

Hi Everyone


I would like an antenna recommendation per my http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...267e36651bdc14 report.


I currently have the Radio Shack antenna on top of my tv on the second floor. I have the dipoles fully extended since half way was worse. The tv is about 5 feet from the window. Some channels are choppy during the day like channel 7, 9 & 13.


I would like to install an antenna in the attic if I could to get the best, but I am also willing to install one on the roof. I live in a 2 story single family home with asphalt shingles and stucco siding.


I was thinking either this one or this one .


TIA


----------



## Dave Loudin

Either of those should work fine. Keep in mind that the wire cage that's inside the stucco knocks down TV and radio signals tremendously. If you have to look through the sides of your house in the attic, you will probably need to mount on the roof.


----------



## arxaw

What Dave said. Stucco can kill TV signals, especially chs 7 thru 13. If you have to aim through a stucco wall (instead of the roof/shingles), skip the attic and install it outside on the roof. Either of those antennas can be easily installed on a J-mount, which is the same mounting pole used for satellite dishes.


Re your current indoor antenna: it may work better if you get it away from ALL electronics (including the TV), which can often cause interference. A North-facing window would be ideal. Use a barrel splice to add a longer coax.


----------



## mho714

Thank you both. I ended up ordering the Winegard HD 7694P. I have an existing dish network antenna on the roof that I'll replace with the Winegard.


I'll post back with results!


----------



## Wkct

Post 1


----------



## Wkct

Post 2 - sorry for spam. Wouldn't let me post URL until 3 posts


----------



## Wkct

Hi all,


I was hoping to get some advice from all of you. This thread is very informative but I can barely understand half of the stuff.










I'm living in a 2-storey townhouse, which is part of a condo complex (there are condos above me










Here is my TVfool link:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...267e542d0edaf6 


My TV is on the first floor and I'm looking for a recommendation for an indoor antenna since I don't think I'm allowed to install anything outdoors.


Thanks!!


----------



## rabbit73

Welcome to the forum, Wkct:


> Quote:
> This thread is very informative but I can barely understand half of the stuff.



No problem; we all started as beginners.


Your signals in North York, ON are very strong. First try a rabbit ears and loop antenna (on the south side of your condo) like this one:
www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077 


Do not use an amplified antenna; it would probably be overloaded.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/21877550
> 
> 
> ...Your signals in North York, ON are very strong. First try a rabbit ears and loop antenna (on the south side of your condo) like this one:
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077
> 
> 
> Do not use an amplified antenna; it would probably be overloaded.



What rabbit73 said. I would get the specific model antenna he linked to, if possible; since it is known to work well for people with similar TVFool results.


----------



## Wkct

Thanks for the quick replies!


I've been browsing around... I can't seem to find that exact same antenna around here.


Was wondering if something like this is similar?

http://www.thesource.ca/estore/Produ...roduct=1501857 


Also, what do you mean by the signal will be overloaded? When I hear that, I'm seeing explosions in my head. :O


Thanks!


----------



## Dave Loudin

Overload in this case means that the input is so strong that the amplifier cannot raise the output any further. This leads to all kinds of distortion that can affect other channels as well.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wkct* /forum/post/21878037
> 
> 
> Thanks for the quick replies!
> 
> 
> I've been browsing around... I can't seem to find that exact same antenna around here.
> 
> 
> Was wondering if something like this is similar?



You could try that one. But I would order the RadioShack model. No "tuning dials" to muck with.



> Quote:
> Also, what do you mean by the signal will be overloaded?



It' similar to when you turn up a cheap radio or TV's volume past a certain point. It may make the sound louder, but becomes so distorted you can't listen to it. It basically turns the signal into noise that can't be decoded by the TV tuner.


----------



## Wkct

Thanks for the clarifications.


I'll try to find that specific model somewhere then. Radioshack doesn't ship to Canada


----------



## arxaw

Several on eBay at the moment.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=...ntenna+15-1874


----------



## bigcam406

pick up a Terk HDTVA from the Source.it will do the job.it is amplified,but not too much to cause overload.you'll be glad you did


----------



## Dave Loudin

NO, no, no! Please, no amplification! However, The HDTVa is unique in that you can turn off the amplifier and it will still pass signals. You do need to leave it plugged in.


----------



## bigcam406

grab one and try it with the amplifier on and off,but leave it plugged in for it to work properly.the Terk shouldnt overload your local stations, judging from your location.its only 12db of amplification.you shouldnt have a problem getting western New York stations with it either.im speaking from experience,its money well spent.


----------



## mho714




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mho714* /forum/post/21867984
> 
> 
> Hi Everyone
> 
> 
> I would like an antenna recommendation per my http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...267e36651bdc14 report.
> 
> 
> I currently have the Radio Shack antenna on top of my tv on the second floor. I have the dipoles fully extended since half way was worse. The tv is about 5 feet from the window. Some channels are choppy during the day like channel 7, 9 & 13.
> 
> 
> I would like to install an antenna in the attic if I could to get the best, but I am also willing to install one on the roof. I live in a 2 story single family home with asphalt shingles and stucco siding.
> 
> 
> I was thinking either this one or this one .
> 
> 
> TIA



Well as promised, I am reporting back with positive results. I now get over 150 crisp channels with the Winegard roof mounted.


Thank you everyone.


----------



## Chere

Hi All,


I have a Terk HDTVa on the way and was wondering if I need to use amplifiication or just leave it in the off position.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...36162448724c55 


Thanks!


----------



## bigcam406

i guess the best way to find out is to try it both ways too see what works best for your location.just make sure its plugged in when you try it out amplified and non amplified.


----------



## Dave Loudin

Start with the amplifier off and have your TVFool report handy. See if you get all the stations at nearly due south down to KFPB-LD. If so, you're set!


----------



## CingKrab

Hi:


Would it be possible to get an indoor antenna recommendation based on my tvfool report?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7fcf77e8e34cbd 


I was thinking of a Terk HDTVa but any recommendations would be great.


----------



## arxaw

For your channels to the NW shown in green on your TVFool report, do not use an amplified antenna. I would try the budget RS antenna . If not available locally, check ebay.


Indoor reception is impossible to predict, due to different building materials that can block signals. For best results, put the antenna near a wall facing West or Northwest, *and away from all electronic devices, including the TV.* To extend the coax length, add more, connect a longer piece, using a barrel splice .


----------



## CingKrab




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21936630
> 
> 
> For your channels to the NW shown in green on your TVFool report, do not use an amplified antenna. I would try the budget RS antenna . If not available locally, check ebay.
> 
> 
> Indoor reception is impossible to predict, due to different building materials that can block signals. For best results, put the antenna near a wall facing West or Northwest, *and away from all electronic devices, including the TV.* To extend the coax length, add more, connect a longer piece, using a barrel splice .



I would love to try the RS Budget antenna, but I can't even find any listings for it on ebay.ca. What would be the next model that you'd recommend?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CingKrab* /forum/post/21938081
> 
> 
> I would love to try the RS Budget antenna, but I can't even find any listings for it on ebay.ca. What would be the next model that you'd recommend?



I found it there with a simple search on their site for *radioshack antenna*.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/RadioShack-HD...-/120899240541


----------



## stevesr0

I understand that in order to post the tvfool link, I need to make 3 posts first? So, this is #1.


----------



## stevesr0

Post 2 of 3


----------



## stevesr0

This is the 3rd of three posts.


----------



## stevesr0

I purchased and installed a Monoprice 4730 indoor/outdoor DHTV antenna.


After installing it about 3 feet above the TV upstairs, I found that the channels were frequently pixelating, freezing or going to no signal message.


With a friend, I tried the antenna out of doors (through a bedroom window) on the same floor and the reception was better but still inadequate.


I contacted Monoprice tech support who told me that their antennas are only for "green" and "yellow" channels. Since antennaweb tells me that my channels are red, blue and purple, if they are correct, I need a more "powerful" antenna.


I found this site and thread where people are kind enough to offer advice, so I am submitting my link to tvfool with a request for advice on a suitable antenna and placement.


My house is surrounded by trees which in all directions are higher than the roof (by more than 20 feet). The area is hilly, so I doubt that any transmitter is in direct line of sight.


My link is http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7fcf99c735cd96 .


Thanks is advance for any assistance/advice.


Steve


----------



## Tim_in_NC

I'm trying to get a better signal to my Garage TV ... it has an internal HD tuner and I'm currently using a Radio Shack Double Bowtie Antenna like the one pictured here >










I'm having problems getting a good, consistent signal with lots of drops on channels such as 5.1 and 50.1 ... etc ...


Here is my TV fool report ... any recommendations on a better antenna? Thanks

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...073b62fbb0c2b0


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tim_in_NC* /forum/post/22054435
> 
> 
> I'm trying to get a better signal to my Garage TV ... it has an internal HD tuner and I'm currently using a Radio Shack Double Bowtie Antenna like the one pictured here >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm having problems getting a good, consistent signal with lots of drops on channels such as 5.1 and 50.1 ... etc ...
> 
> 
> Here is my TV fool report ... any recommendations on a better antenna? Thanks
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...073b62fbb0c2b0



Your existing bowtie antenna should work well for your strong signals at the top of your TVFool list. Many building materials reduce signal strength of indoor reception. Locating the antenna in or near an East/NE-facing window should work best for you. Also locate the antenna away from all interfering electrical/electronic devices. Add a longer coax if necessary.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tim_in_NC* /forum/post/22054435
> 
> 
> I'm trying to get a better signal to my Garage TV ... it has an internal HD tuner and I'm currently using a Radio Shack Double Bowtie Antenna like the one pictured here >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm having problems getting a good, consistent signal with lots of drops on channels such as 5.1 and 50.1 ... etc ...
> 
> 
> Here is my TV fool report ... any recommendations on a better antenna? Thanks
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...073b62fbb0c2b0



If some of the green TVFool channels come in consistently, it may be a matter of location, aim, and height. Different frequencies travel differently, even if they originate from the same location. I know this makes things more difficult because of the need to adjust the antenna, but that's how indoor reception works. Changing the height of the double bowtie by a foot or 2 may be the difference between perfect picture and unwatchable breakups. Indoor reception is learned 1 channel at a time. Good Luck.


----------



## arxaw

Exactly.


Finding a hot spot by trial & error (where signals for all channels are relatively clean and strong and free from electronic/electrical interference) is the key to good indoor reception. It will likely yield better results than throwing money at another antenna and putting it back in the exact same location as the previous one.


----------



## Tim_in_NC

Thanks guys ... I'll keep trying new locations ...


----------



## jeffyscott

My 86 year old mom just moved into an assisted living facility. Before considering cable, I thought I'd try an antenna for her and see if she was satisfied with that. Unfortunately, for TV reception anyway, her room is on the west side of the building and the signals all come from the east.


Because she would like something unobtrusive and having limited mobility she can not be fiddling with it, I set her up RCA ANT1450B from walmart.


She did need the amplification, I tried it with the amplifier unplugged and missed more stations and some of the ones she did get would pixelate, etc.


She is picking up all the channels I'd expect except 6.1 (also 6.2) and 10.1 (10.2-10.4 also).


I thought I might get a different antenna and see if she would get more channels. But I'm sure what might be good to try next?


Is there some particular reason why 10 and 6 would no be picked up?


Since I'm not yet allowed to post a link, I will post a follow-up with link to TV fool report.


----------



## jeffyscott

Note that channel 10 is not identified in the linked report, but call letters are WMVS:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...13496a77b6955a


----------



## arxaw

Your signals are strong. But you chose one of _the worst_ indoor antennas. This particular model 15-1874 passive antenna from RS would likely work better. I am basing this suggestion on actual experience, in more than one instance.


Put it near a window if possible, and as far away from any and all electronic/electrical devices as possible to reduce the chances of interference. Odds are, there is a reception hot spot in the rooom, somewhere. With indoor reception, the difficulty lies in finding it. Patience and trial & error, with repeated rescanning will likely find it. Adding a longer coax will help you relocate the antenna away from sources of interference, which may include the TV itself. Use a barrel splice for that purpose.


BTW, WMVS shows up on the tvfool report I clicked on, above. Select the "Only Digital" option. It is on real channel 36.


----------



## jeffyscott

(yep, I saw WMVS I meant it did not list the virtual channel, 10.1)


Well, if I got almost all the channels with a terrible antenna a better one should get them all.










I'd seen that RS antenna recommended here, but thought she'd prefer the appearance of the flat style over the rabbit ears. I was also thinking the rabbit ears would require fiddling...but maybe that not the case any longer with the signals being digital.


Is there any point in putting it in the window when her only windows are on the west and all the transmitters are to the east?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeffyscott* /forum/post/22096427
> 
> 
> (yep, I saw WMVS I meant it did not list the virtual channel, 10.1)
> 
> 
> Well, if I got almost all the channels with a terrible antenna a better one should get them all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd seen that RS antenna recommended here, but thought she'd prefer the appearance of the flat style over the rabbit ears. I was also thinking the rabbit ears would require fiddling...but maybe that not the case any longer with the signals being digital.
> 
> 
> Is there any point in putting it in the window when her only windows are on the west and all the transmitters are to the east?



TVFool does not always list all virutal channels. Sometimes, only the real transmit channel is listed.


Manufacturers make and sell flat antennas for people who buy on looks instead of performance. They sell a lot of them and occasionally, they even work if one is lucky. But they usually don't work as well as a conventional TV antenna.


The only "fiddling" needed will be extending the VHF dipole rods no more than about half their length each in a "V" and finding a hot spot to place the antenna. With indoor, don't expect an antenna to work as well in one spot as it will in another. And it may be a difference of only a foot or so. Reception hot spots are usually (but not always) near an exterior wall and more likely in or near a window, even a window facing the wrong direction.

*YMMV* considerably. Indoor reception is a crap shoot that often requires lots of patience.


If reception is not satisfactory, putting the antenna near an exterior wall or window can often be very important. Also, try placing the antenna at different heights in the room. Higher or lower by even only a foot can make a huge difference.


----------



## jeffyscott




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/22096495
> 
> 
> TVFool does not always list all virutal channels. Sometimes, only the real transmit channel is listed.



Yes, I've discovered that 10-1 is actually real channel 8, so it is VHF (there is an SD simulcast of it on real channel 36, so that's why the call letters showed up there). That is likely why that one was missed by that antenna, since it has no long rods for picking up VHF signals. Not sure why 6-1 and 6-2 were missed, though, as they are real channel 33.


Anyway, after reading on the different types of antenna at TVfool, I guess the rabbit ears are still the only real option for VHF. I'll guess give that radio shack one a try.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeffyscott* /forum/post/22096624
> 
> 
> Yes, I've discovered that 10-1 is actually real channel 8, so it is VHF (there is an SD simulcast of it on real channel 36, so that's why the call letters showed up there). That is likely why that one was missed by that antenna, since it has no long rods for picking up VHF signals. *Not sure why 6-1 and 6-2 were missed, though, as they are real channel 33*...



Probably interference on ch 33 where the antenna was sitting, or overamplification by the antenna's amp.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeffyscott* /forum/post/22096427
> 
> 
> (yep, I saw WMVS I meant it did not list the virtual channel, 10.1)
> 
> 
> Well, if I got almost all the channels with a terrible antenna a better one should get them all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd seen that RS antenna recommended here, but thought she'd prefer the appearance of the flat style over the rabbit ears. I was also thinking the rabbit ears would require fiddling...but maybe that not the case any longer with the signals being digital.
> 
> 
> Is there any point in putting it in the window when her only windows are on the west and all the transmitters are to the east?



You could also try the classic single bowtie from RS if it looks better to you. Even though the packaging says "uhf", your PBS on rf 8 is strong enough for it to work for you. RS allows returns, so try a couple of antennas while your at it. I think the bowtie is a better uhf antenna than the RS budget. Good Luck.


----------



## jeffyscott




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3150#post_22096673
> 
> 
> 
> Probably interference on ch 33 where the antenna was sitting, or overamplification by the antenna's amp.



Must be interference, I tried with and without plugging in the amplifier.


Tried the RS 1874, the only way I picked up the one VHF channel was by connecting it with the amp from the other antenna. For the UHF channels the RS 1874 did not pick up some that the other antenna did.


So, since the omnidirectional design seems to work better for this situation, I'm debating whether to leave well enough alone or try this:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11694069 


or this: http://www.shopko.com/detail/philips-digital-tv-antenna-indoor-hdtvuhfvhf/22831 


or this: http://www.americantv.com/productpage/Jasco-24746-GE_Futura-_TV_Antenna,054011627?itemCd=054011627&linkBack=L3Byb2R1Y3RsaXN0L0FudGVubmFzLDUwMjI%3D 


(those all say they pick up VHF)


or maybe this: http://www.walmart.com/ip/GE-Amplified-Antenna/20976616


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeffyscott*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3150#post_22096427
> 
> 
> (yep, I saw WMVS I meant it did not list the virtual channel, 10.1)
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if I got almost all the channels with a terrible antenna a better one should get them all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd seen that RS antenna recommended here, but thought she'd prefer the appearance of the flat style over the rabbit ears. I was also thinking the rabbit ears would require fiddling...but maybe that not the case any longer with the signals being digital.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any point in putting it in the window when her only windows are on the west and all the transmitters are to the east?[/quote - If you prefer a flat panel style antenna, then the Mohu Leaf usually gets the best reviews for that type of antenna. But could be problematic for some VHF unless signals are strong. They also make an amplified version if necessary. If the Radioshack budget did not work, try upgrading to the Terk HDTVa which adds rabbit ears. Plug it in, but try with amp off and then on to see which way works best. Maybe add a barrel splice and RG6 extension cable if necessary. Another idea is Clearstream 1 Convertible now sold at Walmart for $59. Works good for UHF and also gets VHF at my location, and worked better for me than the flat panel Micron version that was $79. But if wife likes that flat panel Micron version, you could always give it a try. And they sell a RCA-Audiovox inline amp at Walmart for $19.99 that you could always add to it if necessary, and Antennas Direct sells their own amp for this antenna as well. Walmart should be easy returns if you get unsatisfactory results. Just a few ideas there.


----------



## jeffyscott

Success!


Since I was returning the RS budget model, I picked up the Antennacraft Amplified Omnidirectional while I was there. It worked great and pretty effortlessly. After trying it in a few spots, the window was the best location for channel 10 (real ch 8), the one VHF channel, as had been the case with the RS budget antenna. Set it up there, ran a full channel scan and it got them all.


It picked up 33 channels (the first antenna had only gotten 22, I think). I deleted 2 weak analog channels and one other analog signal is not perfect, but all the digital channels seemed fine.


----------



## tylerSC

Glad that Antennacraft model worked for you. I was wondering about that one as well. It may be similar to the Antennas Direct Micron antenna, but not sure. They had it on sale about a week ago, and if it goes on sale again I might get one to try in my 2nd floor bonus room. I use a CS1 there now.


----------



## HDGTX

Hello all, Did anyone catch the advert for an indoor ant here last week, that show a flat indoor ant that was white on one side & black on the other? Do you have the name &/or

web site ? Anyone purchased & tried one out yet?


John


----------



## deltaguy

A link to TVFool results for your location would be helpful. The Mohu Leaf antenna has a black side and a white side. This may be the antenna. You might be able to receive OTA signals for considerably less money. Please post a TVFool link.


Have you tried other antennas prior? If so, which ones? Do you have a correct-facing window toward the broadcasting antennas?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HDGTX*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3150#post_22152892
> 
> 
> Hello all, Did anyone catch the advert for an indoor ant here last week, that show a flat indoor ant that was white on one side & black on the other? Do you have the name &/or
> 
> web site ? Anyone purchased & tried one out yet?
> 
> John



SEARCH keyword "Leaf"


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3180#post_22153229
> 
> 
> SEARCH keyword "Leaf"


It is the Mohu Leaf, and is one of the few recommended flat panel style antennas. It comes in amplified and unamplified versions.


----------



## windywold

Hi,

I stumbled on this thread and would love some help. We have cut ourselves away from dishnetwork after umpteen years after my teaching contract was cancelled for next year, leaving me looking for an alternate career. This is my situation. I wanted to mount an exterior antenna for all three TVs to make use of the coax from our dish system. The dish is on the Southeast corner of our house on a shed roof over a porch. We converted a dairy barn into a home so we have a huge 12/12 (square pitch) roof over the main part of the house that I'd rather stay off of. Here is the link to my TV fool layout. If the exterior location is no good, I could wall mount an exterior antenna in our bedroom on the west wall or west side of our chimneyof the house and gain 6-8 feet in height.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900bbb0910524 


Thanks in advance,

Alan


----------



## Louis Bartay

I tried several indoor models and finally hooked up a old used outdoor mid size Tv antenna and hung it level the attic ceiling. I had to change the Verizon splitter(why I don't know) and used there coax drops in the walls.. Pointed it towards our aera Tv stations towers

as one is on the opposite side of the city and made it a pain to finally dial in all the major networks. I was/am Shocked how good a picture I got watching Jay Leno on HD in all three rooms now..

It's as good of pic as our Verizon FIOS HD we turned off months ago... I am close to retiring and $130.00 a month for Tv was not in my budget and stay at home and not look for a job







.

There were several models that need to be placed near a window faced towards the towers for best picture. Read back a few pages as it's been months. I read aboout a rabbit ears with a adjustable loop that had a 110 AC plug for signal gain boost and adjustment. It was about $25.00 on Flebay and worked Ok on one HD TV where will live here in the DFW area in Texas. Hope this helps.


----------



## ceadmin

Can someone recommend an antenna for this tvfool report plz?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d99005e831867e3


----------



## Dave Loudin

@ceadmin, if you are hoping for an indoor antenna recommendation, you are out of luck. Just by the color key used in the report's table, you should know that you need an outdoor antenna, and a large one at that. A Winegard HD7078p or HD8200P would be appropriate.


----------



## holl_ands

Since you said you live in an apartment, a big outdoor antenna might not be feasible for you.


If you have a balcony facing the transmitters, you could try mclapp's DIY UHF 4-Bay (NO Reflector), with
*9.0-12.3 dBi in New UHF Band* and about *3.5 dBi in the Hi-VHF Band* (Ch7-13) with good SWR:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay/super4m10x95 
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/Drawings/PDF%20Drawings.html 


Next step up in complexity would be to add a BIG Reflector, which provides *13.9-15.6 dBi in UHF Band*

and *9.4-9.0 dBi in Hi-VHF Band, although SWR is degraded* and would need to be carefully hidden if

used indoors (see drawings above): http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/m410x95 


4-Bay Bowtie could be placed on the balcony, using on a support pole stuck in a stand-alone planter pot

(or whatever) or find a place for it indoors. Alternatively, it could be constructed using 3/4-in Aluminized

Foil Tape on either posterboard or a conveniently facing window. If you don't have a window facing the

transmitters, you could still try it...but your chances for reception are diminished:


----------



## Dave Loudin

@holl_ands, thanks for offering a more constructive recommendation than I did. If I were in his shoes, that's what I would try. Those designs have the most gain (again, preamps don't count!) in a reasonable size that is pretty easy to construct. There may be one problem left to solve after trying this - WOI on RF 5, the OPs only ABC affiliate. No relatively compact antenna will have any gain for channel 5. The best you can hope for is not terribly negative gain (loss). If the bow-tie design doesn't get WOI, then you could try adding a set of rabbit ears to the system.


----------



## Nick27

I have recently moved and I'm looking to get an antenna for my place. I will put the antenna in my attic. Here are my tvfool results : http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de7797ef68e0f32


----------



## Louis Bartay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nick27*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3180#post_22350023
> 
> 
> I have recently moved and I'm looking to get an antenna for my place. I will put the antenna in my attic. Here are my tvfool results : http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de7797ef68e0f32



If you have a attic, a mid sizes outdoor UHF/VHF is the Best way to go. I tried the indoor model after turning off cable. I looked in my attic and there was a 20 year old out door atenna. I turned towards the towers and hung it level with fishing line and moved it several times before all the stations came in CLEAR.. I have a new roof and did Not want to mount one outside. I was Shocked how good HD on ABC,NBC,FOX and CBS came in like HD cable did. Leno at night is awsome. Any cheep outdoor antenna will work great. Don't caught up in the Expensive New HD Super huge outdoor models, when a old school one works Great. Hope this helps.


----------



## Nick27

Louis, Thanks for the reply. I am curious if you know which antenna models would be good to check out. Also would a cheap model have the range I would need to get most of the channels in the chart for around 40-55 miles away from the tower?

Thanks


----------



## Louis Bartay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nick27*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3180#post_22352486
> 
> 
> Louis, Thanks for the reply. I am curious if you know which antenna models would be good to check out. Also would a cheap model have the range I would need to get most of the channels in the chart for around 40-55 miles away from the tower?
> 
> Thanks



I had a good picture with the one that looks like rabbit ears and round hoop that plugs in the wall AC/DC powered rabbit ears with a "Signal Gain" adjustment feature. I paid $20.00 for it on Ebay and was Suprised how nice it worked for $20.00. Where I live in the DFW area the NBC tower ( I think)

was not located on Cedar Hill where all the other stations have theirs. I had to keep it near a window and move it for a perfect pic on that odd stations tower... Find a used outdoor at a garage sale and hang it in the attic and be done with it. I had to purchase a splitter and coaxial wire I hooked up to where the Charter cable had a 3 in to 1 splitter. What a mark up on New HD outdoor model when a 20 year old medium sized works Great. Hope this helps as I spent a LOT of time reading all these posts on this thread.Some good info here. Good Luck


Louis


----------



## Dave Loudin

There are threads on a couple of forums, including here, that have discussed antenna designs and construction. Some points that have come up there to keep in mind:


1) Mileage ratings are _useless_. They arose to help translate a technical parameter (gain) to a more generally understood measure of performance. There is no technical basis for them, so manufacturers can say anything they want.


2) An antenna's size has to be a significant fraction of the wavelength of a signal for the antenna to be useful. There are a couple of designs, for example the Antennas Direct C5, that exploit a clever trick, but never expect a compact antenna design to be useful for channels 2-6.


3) You can't fight physics. Successful reception of ATSC television requires the signal to be a certain amount stronger than the background and man-made noise. The ONLY device you can get that increases signal-to-noise is an antenna. Amplifiers are useful in primarily to overcome signal losses in _long_ cable runs. There are a few special cases that take a while to describe, but in those situations it is easy to add a preamp later.


Thanks to the internet, it's much easier to size up the available broadcast TV signals to help figure out what antenna to buy. There are a couple of decent sites, but TVFool offers the most information. In general, one needs to pay attention to three columns in the table: Real channel (where the signal from transmitter to you is located), "NM" (noise margin, the strength of the signal relative to the minimum required for reception), and azimuth (to see how broad the region of sky is that the antenna must be sensitive to). More on how to read a TVFool prediction is here .


Nick, to your situation. Note that you'll probably want to recieve everything down to WHYY to be sure you have all the major networks. That means you have channels in all three bands: VHF-LO (WPVI 6), VHF-HI (WHYY 12), and UHF (all the rest). The NMs are all positive, meaning, in theory, you don't need much antenna gain to make things work. However, to protect against signal fading and overcome the losses by receiving through the roof, you will need at least a moderate amount of antenna gain. An attic mount will likely work because all of the signals of interest come from one direction. My situation is very similar to yours, and I have an old medium-range Radio Shack all-channel antenna in the attic that works well. There is one proviso - if the antenna has to point out the side where the foil-backed insulated panels are, then all bets are off.


I think you are looking at a Winegard 7080P, which has elements that are sensitive to all three bands of channels. It's about $60 on-line.


----------



## thor17

I currently am using a Radio Shack UFO, but am having difficulty getting WJLA (7) and WUSA (9). I only get 1 bar from them (I've tried all 12 positions and all three gains), whereas I can get up to 5 bars for WTTG (36), WRC-DT (48) , WDCW (50), WETA-TV (27)


Here is my tvfool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de7796c0083061f 


I've tried moving the antenna to different locations and get the same result.


Anyone have any clues as to how I can improve my reception to get those 2 channels?


----------



## ProjectSHO89

thr17,


Get a set of rabbit ears. Those channels require an antenna with a physical length around 2.5'. Combine the two antenna outputs with a UVSJ.


----------



## thor17

The UFO has rabbit ears built in and I've tried adjusting them, but it didn't really improve the signal. Could multipath be the issue?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thor17*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3180#post_22364591
> 
> 
> The UFO has rabbit ears built in and I've tried adjusting them, but it didn't really improve the signal. Could multipath be the issue?



Interference from electronic devices is more likely than multipath since only VHF channels are causing problems. Moving the antenna away from these could solve the problem. Bear in mind, if a room has too much noise from electronics, VHF can be impossible to receive. While it's a long shot for your VHF stations, I'd even consider removing the rabbit ears from the UFO and checking that way. By all means, try adjusting the height of the UFO as well. That can also produce much better reception. Pay no attention to UHF signals when trying to get your VHF channels. Good Luck.


----------



## Louis Bartay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thor17*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3180#post_22364591
> 
> 
> The UFO has rabbit ears built in and I've tried adjusting them, but it didn't really improve the signal. Could multipath be the issue?



Move the antenna to a window. I did and helped.


----------



## Greg_R

What DIY design is recommended for my location? I would prefer an attic mount. There is ~75-100ft of coax between the antenna and my amplified 8:1 splitter (4dB gain). Should I use a pre-amp as well (to drive the coax)?


I currently have a large Terk directional antenna in my attic and it doesn't work very well. I'm thinking a smaller bowtie will give me much better results. Right now virtual channel 6.1 (UHF) is choppy and 8.1 (VHF) comes in fine (but signal strength indicator is ~75-80%... somewhat low).


Thanks for the help!

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d2df90257afced6


----------



## Greg_R




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Greg_R*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3180#post_22444766
> 
> 
> What DIY design is recommended for my location? I would prefer an attic mount. There is ~75-100ft of coax between the antenna and my amplified 8:1 splitter (4dB gain). Should I use a pre-amp as well (to drive the coax)?
> 
> I currently have a large Terk directional antenna in my attic and it doesn't work very well. I'm thinking a smaller bowtie will give me much better results. Right now virtual channel 6.1 (UHF) is choppy and 8.1 (VHF) comes in fine (but signal strength indicator is ~75-80%... somewhat low).
> 
> Thanks for the help!
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d2df90257afced6


I should mention that there is another house directly in my line of sight to the towers + some very large, densely packed (pine) trees.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Greg_R*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3180#post_22449184
> 
> 
> I should mention that there is another house directly in my line of sight to the towers + some very large, densely packed (pine) trees.



Then don't be surprised if you find yourself to be
 


Signals must reach the antenna in adequate strength and with adequate quality. Physical obstructions such as buildings will affect any signal. Trees will affect UHF signals more so than VHF signals.


----------



## Dave Loudin

But, but, but... Check out the signal strengths available before obstructions! One check and one suggestion:


Is the Terk pointed east? (have to ask) if so, then...


Bypass the distribution amp and connect just one outlet to the cable from the antenna. Before you mentioned the local obstructions, I was thinking you might be overloading the amp even after 100 feet of cable. You have nine signals with noise margins of 60+!


For a DIY, try the bowtie array documented at http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html . It's pretty easy to build and is easy to work with in the attic. Be prepared to try adjusting the antenna's aim if pointing east doesn't work.


----------



## Greg_R

Yep, it's pointing right at the towers (and I do have the antenna facing the right direction). The 100ft of cable is (cheap) RG-59 if that makes a difference. I've built that bowtie antenna option and plan on giving it a try. There is another placement option towards the front of the house that -may- limit obstructions and reduce the cable length. However, it's all blown insulation and I was trying to avoid that area







. I think my problem is the number of obstructions and lack of a good line of sight to the towers. I also have a variety of signal attenuators that I can try in the path if the signal is too strong; I had already tried them with the old antenna.


----------



## oakst8

Looking for help with picking the best antenna and tweaking my setup. I have plenty of channels close by, and all the channels I want are coming in, but I get lots of interference from passing cars. Getting an antenna on the roof would be very problematic, so I'm hoping there might be other options. Currently using a fairly cheap, passive RCA antenna.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d2df90fea2eb228 


Thoughts on the best indoor antennas and best tricks from minimizing the impact of traffic interference?


Thanks!


----------



## oakst8




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oakst8*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3180#post_22488892
> 
> 
> Looking for help with picking the best antenna and tweaking my setup. I have plenty of channels close by, and all the channels I want are coming in, but I get lots of interference from passing cars. Getting an antenna on the roof would be very problematic, so I'm hoping there might be other options. Currently using a fairly cheap, passive RCA antenna.
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d2df90fea2eb228
> 
> Thoughts on the best indoor antennas and best tricks from minimizing the impact of traffic interference?
> 
> Thanks!



Bump. I'd love some advice on antenna options and configurations that are least impacted by traffic interference. Thanks


----------



## tylerSC

Perhaps an amplified antenna would help prevent the dropouts caused by interfernce. Radioshack sells an amplified version of the basic rabbit ears and loop. And there is the Terk HDTVa which you can try with the amp turned both on or off. But it must be plugged in either way. Sometimes amps help, sometimes they do not.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oakst8*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3180#post_22497829
> 
> 
> Bump. I'd love some advice on antenna options and configurations that are least impacted by traffic interference. Thanks



No such thing.


"Traffic Interference" is due to signals either being blocked or reflected by the moving vehicles (dynamic multi-path). An amplifier will never cure this issue, the only recourse is a combination of antenna location and directionality.


Directionality helps as it allows the antenna to reject the off-axis reflections while focusing the reception capability of the antenna on the incoming signals that are of the better quality and strength.


Antenna location must be actively considered for TV reception just as folks have learned to adapt to bad cell signals indoors. Pretty quickly, cell users will identify and exploit the "good" locations while avoiding the "bad" areas. Sometimes, though, despite ones best efforts, you figure out you're just screwed and your cell phone doesn't work in certain areas. TV reception is quite similar.


----------



## Richard Lewis

Has anyone added the Orca AX-190? This antenna cured my reception problems of receiving Stations 40- 50 miles away and it is a indoor Antenna


----------



## Greg_R




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3180#post_22449955
> 
> 
> But, but, but... Check out the signal strengths available before obstructions! One check and one suggestion:
> 
> Is the Terk pointed east? (have to ask) if so, then...
> 
> Bypass the distribution amp and connect just one outlet to the cable from the antenna. Before you mentioned the local obstructions, I was thinking you might be overloading the amp even after 100 feet of cable. You have nine signals with noise margins of 60+!
> 
> For a DIY, try the bowtie array documented at http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html . It's pretty easy to build and is easy to work with in the attic. Be prepared to try adjusting the antenna's aim if pointing east doesn't work.


I tried the DIY antenna and it was slightly worse than the large directional antenna. Removing the distribution amp also reduces the reception quality. Adding attenuators reduces the signal strength & picture quality so IMO it's not a "signal is too strong" problem. I have not eliminated the in-wall wiring and connectors; my next step is to try the antenna outdoors on my front lawn (as an experiment). If that works then I'll try to work out an effective roof mount option.


----------



## Greg_R

My main goal was to avoid having to get on top of my 40ft+ high roof peak and mount an antenna mast + antenna. However, I may have to go down that road. What eave mounts & masts are recommended? I do not need a rotor...


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oakst8*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3180#post_22497829
> 
> 
> Bump. I'd love some advice on antenna options and configurations that are least impacted by traffic interference. Thanks



Your passive rabbit ears/loop antenna is probably not a very good one. Since you are getting reception with it, a different antenna may yield better results (less drops in A/V). Of the passive variety:


Fry's may have a Silver Sensor available (Philips SCV2780). You have to get this one in store, so call ahead. This is a good UHF antenna and can also receive KGO and KNTV if signal is strong enough.


Amazon offers the HD Blade from Solid Signal and the Mohu Leaf antenna. These are also pretty good. Worth a try provided you can return it. Amazon does allow returns. With the HD Blade, a variety of cable lengths are available. This is a plus.


I've been receiving VHF with "UHF" antennas for several years, and my signals are not as strong as what you have there.


How is your reception currently for KGO and KNTV?

Have you moved the antenna around the room using additional coax?

Where is the traffic interference? Is it between your antenna and S.F. or elsewhere?


----------



## oakst8




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3210#post_22510465
> 
> 
> 
> How is your reception currently for KGO and KNTV?
> 
> Have you moved the antenna around the room using additional coax?
> 
> Where is the traffic interference? Is it between your antenna and S.F. or elsewhere?



Thanks for the suggestions - and sorry for the slow reply. I've been experimenting with an amplified loop/rabbit ears from radioshack with minimally improved results. I'll definitely look into the ones you suggest. The street causing the interference is between my tv and SF, so it makes sense that I'd have issues.


I can get KGO and KNTV in great, but they are more susceptible to traffic interference than Fox and CBS. KQED can also have issues.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oakst8*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3210#post_22567097
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions - and sorry for the slow reply. I've been experimenting with an amplified loop/rabbit ears from radioshack with minimally improved results. I'll definitely look into the ones you suggest. The street causing the interference is between my tv and SF, so it makes sense that I'd have issues.
> 
> I can get KGO and KNTV in great, but they are more susceptible to traffic interference than Fox and CBS. KQED can also have issues.



A different antenna may perform better. It's not a question of receiving stronger signals. It's a matter of not receiving unwanted multipath signals that your televisions tuner can't deal with, causing the A/V drops. It's impossible to say what will work. Good Luck.


----------



## cwilms


What type of Antenae/Hardware/Balun etc would you recommend for these results... forgive me, I'm new to OTA Digital TV and am just looking into it to see if it's even an option for me or not even worth trying.

 

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddadbf98753dc


----------



## soje

Hello all,


I'm getting rid of Verizon cable. I bought a Roku HD box, and want to get my local channels as well. I know very little about this business, but can see there is a plethora of issues to consider. My TVfool, linked below, looks pretty simple; all of my stations appear to be in one specific place. I'm not sure if that's a good thing. I would prefer to have an indoor antenna, but am willing to put one in the attick, at bout 12', or the roof, at about 18'. I have a budget of about 100, to 150 at most. I have a low end Olevia HDTV, and may upgrade soon. I would appreciate any help in selecting an antenna for my house. Please let me know what you think. Thanks, John

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddade4615cd8b


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cwilms*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3210#post_22846559
> 
> 
> What type of Antenae/Hardware/Balun etc would you recommend for these results... forgive me, I'm new to OTA Digital TV and am just looking into it to see if it's even an option for me or not even worth trying.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddadbf98753dc



The channel you have the best chances of getting with an indoor antenna is the CTV affiliate on rf 6. I see that this is a translator signal. It may not be digital. The best starter antenna for trying to get it would be simple rabbit ears. If the translator is broadcasting analog, it should be fairly reliable for reception. Digital could be more difficult. So, you need rabbit ears with a push on adapter, plus a barrel splice (coax to coax connecter) and some coax cable. The rabbit ears should be 72 inches from end to end for best chances of rf 6. Your chances will be best if you can position the antenna near a window facing the broadcast tower. Using the rabbit ears horizontally gives the best opportunity to elevate the rabbit ears. Until they transition to digital, you might also get some signal on rf 12. That channel is supposed to transition later this year. Good Luck.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *soje*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3210#post_22888584
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> 
> I'm getting rid of Verizon cable. I bought a Roku HD box, and want to get my local channels as well. I know very little about this business, but can see there is a plethora of issues to consider. My TVfool, linked below, looks pretty simple; all of my stations appear to be in one specific place. I'm not sure if that's a good thing. I would prefer to have an indoor antenna, but am willing to put one in the attick, at bout 12', or the roof, at about 18'. I have a budget of about 100, to 150 at most. I have a low end Olevia HDTV, and may upgrade soon. I would appreciate any help in selecting an antenna for my house. Please let me know what you think. Thanks, John
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddade4615cd8b



If outdoors is an option, I'd go that way. You might not need to go up on the roof. You should post this as a new thread in the technical forum. Something on the lines of Antenna recommendation for Plano Texas.


----------



## soje




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3210#post_22888868
> 
> 
> If outdoors is an option, I'd go that way. You might not need to go up on the roof. You should post this as a new thread in the technical forum. Something on the lines of Antenna recommendation for Plano Texas.



Thanks, I'll re-post.


----------



## dinosaur1

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1dda9ad4dbc72b 


I am looking at cutting uverse tv and I plan on just keeping uverse internet which is still going to cost me $50/mo(any other internet options). I live about 17 miles from the towers (uhf mainly). I plan on getting a Roku hd box. I have 3 tv's. 2 on the main level and 1 in our basement rec room. I just ordered a Mohu Leaf so I'm hoping that will work.


When I tried this one it had choppy reception.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/RCA+-+Amplified+Indoor+Off-Air+HDTV+Antenna/8280843.p?id=1171058630563&skuId=8280843 


Any help is appreciated.


----------



## nihar680

Hi All,


I would like to get a recommendation for an indoor antenna for my TVFool profile:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddaf47a37031a 


An outdoor antenna is not an option right now as my apartment complex won't allow it. I do have a window which a about 10 feet from the TV.


Thanks!

TV Signals.png 69k .png file


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dinosaur1*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3210#post_22898252
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1dda9ad4dbc72b
> 
> 
> I am looking at cutting uverse tv and I plan on just keeping uverse internet which is still going to cost me $50/mo(any other internet options). I live about 17 miles from the towers (uhf mainly). I plan on getting a Roku hd box. I have 3 tv's. 2 on the main level and 1 in our basement rec room. I just ordered a Mohu Leaf so I'm hoping that will work.
> 
> 
> When I tried this one it had choppy reception.
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/RCA+-+Amplified+Indoor+Off-Air+HDTV+Antenna/8280843.p?id=1171058630563&skuId=8280843
> 
> 
> Any help is appreciated.



I hope the Leaf works for you. A single antenna can only provide 100% of the signal it is getting to a single television set. Good Luck.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nihar680*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3210#post_22900471
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> 
> I would like to get a recommendation for an indoor antenna for my TVFool profile:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddaf47a37031a
> 
> 
> An outdoor antenna is not an option right now as my apartment complex won't allow it. I do have a window which a about 10 feet from the TV.
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> TV Signals.png 69k .png file



If you don't mind buying from Ebay, the single classic bowtie is still available. Search "uhf bow-tie replacement antenna." It's as good as other antennas for many times the price. Otherwise, I'd give the nod to the Mohu Leaf. Good Luck.


----------



## joblenis

Hello,


First off hello and pre-thanks for the help. I am fairly new to this technology but just got my iView3500stb today and need to get an indoor antenna and looking for some suggestions. I need to get indoor for building reasons, but mostly because I live on the first floor and theres a walkway outside my windows. it would most likely get stolen or damaged.


here is my tvfool profile. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1dda4fd0f51066 


NOTE: I live downtown Toronto and live only 3.4 km from the CN Tower which is where most the channels are coming from (SSW)


Thanks for any advice.


Jeff


----------



## joblenis

forgot to mention, I was looking at these. One has 10 extra mile range/amp, but not even sure its needed if I live in an ideal location


Mohu Leaf Paper-Thin Indoor HDTV Antenna (approx $35)
http://www.amazon.com/Mohu-Leaf-Paper-Thin-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B004QK7HI8/ref=pd_sim_e_3 


Mohu Leaf Ultimate Amplified Indoor HDTV Antenna (approx 75)
http://www.amazon.com/Mohu-Ultimate-Amplified-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B00APPDX86/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1368464071&sr=1-2&keywords=mohu+leaf+paper-thin+indoor+hdtv+antenna+ultimate


----------



## tylerSC

There is also a similar Winegard Flatwave amped version sold at Costco.


----------



## ADTech

Do *NOT* use any amplified antenna as it will overload from your strong signals.


Try a simple loop and rabbit ears first. Unless you can see the CN Tower from your window, don't get your expectations too high.


----------



## joblenis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3210#post_23311241
> 
> 
> Do *NOT* use any amplified antenna as it will overload from your strong signals.
> 
> 
> Try a simple loop and rabbit ears first. Unless you can see the CN Tower from your window, don't get your expectations too high.



I can see the CN tower.. and shes a beaut at night









I ordered the Mohu Leaf Ultimate Amplified Indoor HDTV Antenna. If I dont need the amp, ill just turn it off. some people said it didnt help much, but some said it did. better safe than sorry. Seemed this had the best overall reviews and for my situation on positioning


----------



## S Dayton

I finally got around to cutting the cord but I still need some help. I can get all the channels here in Las Vegas, NV with a cheap VHF/UHF indoor antenna with the exception of channel 3 and its sub channels. Virtual channel 3 is really VHF channel 2 here in Vegas. Does anybody have any suggestions on a indoor antenna that works well with low frequency VHF or am I SOL and have to pay somebody to do and outdoor install.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Get a set of rabbit ears that can be extended way out, like 6-9 ft. If that doesn't work out, go outside with a conventional U/V antenna.


----------



## holl_ands

Receiving Digital TV Signals is more of a challenge than Analog due to the need to maintain a Low SWR, recommended to be under 2.7 if possible. SWR causes signals to bounce up and down the coax, resulting in short delay Multipath....something that Adaptive Equalizers are not designed to overcome. This susceptibility to distortion is measured by the Error Vector Magnitude (for more info search my posts re "EVM").


A "Stick" Dipole for Ch2 needs to be ENORMOUS in order for the SWR to be in the acceptable range, well beyond the extension range of most Rabbit-Ear Antennas, so you might want to add some "extenders" to a Rabbit-Ear Antenna:

FYI: The two Rabbit-Ear Antennas I have extend to Half-Lengths of 38 and 45-inches.
 


Longer length Stick Dipoles are analyzed here, where it should be noted that matching to the "natural" dipole impedance of 75-ohms results in acceptable SWR over a very narrow-bandwidth. Many broadband antennas (mis)-match to 300-ohms instead, which provides more or less acceptable SWR over a much wider bandwidth:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/vhfstickdipoles 



Some alternative DIY Lo-VHF (incl. Ch2) and Lo+Hi-VHF Antennas with acceptable SWR (Yes, they are HUGE):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/vhf1baybowtie 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/lovhffmhourglassloop 


BTW: I recommend AGAINST building a Folded Dipole Antenna for Ch2-6 using 300-ohm TWIN-LEAD....the small wire radius results in a very narrow bandwidth with acceptable SWR. Note that AWG24 resulted in Max SWR of 3:1 in Hi-VHF Band and would need to be much larger diameter when Rescaled for Ch2:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/folded/huge/Folded%20Dipoles%20-%20Var%20El%20Diameters%20-%20SWR_1.jpg 

Even assuming FAT 1/2-in Copper Tubing for a Ch2-6 Folded Dipole design, SWR was excessive on both Ch2 and Ch6:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhffoldeddipole 

So with 1/2-in Diameter Copper Tubing (or even thicker 1-in), acceptable SWR won't be realized over more than one or two adjacent channels....and a Ch2 Folded Dipole would need to be about 95-inches long (nearly 8-ft).


----------



## retiredengineer

Holl_ands,


Would a directional coupler help keep the SWR low? If we tune a 75 ohms stick antenna to channel 2 only and use a combiner to add it to the VHF/UHF signals, would that work?


----------



## holl_ands

You might be thinking the Reverse Isolation of an RF Splitter/Combiner will significantly attenuate the Reflections bouncing up and down the coax...and you're probably right. HOWEVER, the high SWR of the Antenna will still result in Reflections bounding back from the RF Combiner....which would be a very short cable length away if co-located with the Antenna. But there will STILL be Reflections, except with shorter delays and less coax attenuation. So, since we don't know the VERY SHORT Delay Tolerance for individual ATSC Tuner Chips, we can't really predict whether EVM improves...or gets worse. You might want to look at Dr Obed Bendov's papers again:
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/dtv%20coverage%20and%20service%20prediction.pdf 
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/PFactorsV.pdf 


More on this subject:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1303957


----------



## holl_ands

Related Aspect: A standard cable-type RF Splitter/Combiner has 3.5+ dB Loss, whereas HLSJ High/Low-VHF Combiner/Splitter has only 0.5 dB Loss....it also isolates Ch2-6+FM Antenna from the other (and vice-versa) to prevent antenna pattern degradation and reduce noise level increase from the opposite antenna. Or use more expensive C-M JoinTenna (hard to get) or equivalent Single Channel Combiner from Tin-Lee.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *S Dayton*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3210#post_23392259
> 
> 
> I finally got around to cutting the cord but I still need some help. I can get all the channels here in Las Vegas, NV with a cheap VHF/UHF indoor antenna with the exception of channel 3 and its sub channels. Virtual channel 3 is really VHF channel 2 here in Vegas. Does anybody have any suggestions on a indoor antenna that works well with low frequency VHF or am I SOL and have to pay somebody to do and outdoor install.



If you haven't tried one of the new flat antennas like the Flatwave/HDBlade or Leaf, you might want to consider it. When you asked this in the Las Vegas HDTV thread last year, someone suggested the Leaf. This means that the Leaf can work when strong signal is present, even for rf 2. Here's another reason why. These antennas do not have rabbit ears and, in my opinion, are less prone to picking up EMI. This interference can prevent VHF reception. Here's an experience from one room here. Prior to insulation being installed, the classic single bowtie could receive VHF. Rabbit ears also could receive VHF. After the insulation was in place, VHF was lost. Neither the bowtie or the rabbit ears could get VHF. VHF reception seemed to be identical even though rabbit ears are a superior VHF antenna to the bowtie. My conclusion is that the insulation was reflecting EMI back into the room. Why? I have received VHF in the same room with the new flat antennas. In this case, It's what isn't being received that solved the problem. For you, I'd try the Flatwave if you can return it. Good Luck.


----------



## S Dayton

Well I tired the Leaf and the Terk HDTVA with a 25' RG6 coax to find the sweet spot with no success. I guess channel 3 is not meant to be unless I get something on the roof.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *S Dayton*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3210#post_23432930
> 
> 
> Well I tired the Leaf and the Terk HDTVA with a 25' RG6 coax to find the sweet spot with no success. I guess channel 3 is not meant to be unless I get something on the roof.


 http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416899/ota-reception-in-las-vegas 


This thread has info about antennas designed for rf 2 if you would like to try that approach. Before going up on the roof, you might want to speak to neighbors with roof antennas near you. Even those may not be working to receive the noise prone rf 2.


----------



## S Dayton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3210#post_23434202
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416899/ota-reception-in-las-vegas
> 
> 
> This thread has info about antennas designed for rf 2 if you would like to try that approach. Before going up on the roof, you might want to speak to neighbors with roof antennas near you. Even those may not be working to receive the noise prone rf 2.



Thanks, all my neighbors in this condo building think I am insane or very frugal to cut the cord. I don't think its a RFI problem in the neighborhood since I can receive channel three with a simple rabbit ear antenna in the bedroom. I am now going to try a simple 300 ohm dipole a shot tacked to the wall over the patio door.


----------



## TaranScorp

When I try TV Fool all I get is this:

ERROR: Geocoding service failure (code = 1). Please try again or use coordinates instead.

ERROR: The address could not be resolved. Please check the address or try entering coordinates instead.

ERROR: Longitude is out of range. Please check your location and try again.


Anyway I live in Henry TN which is 10 miles from Paris TN.


I probably will get an outdoor antenna, either a


RCA ANT751R Outdoor Antenna Optimized for Digital Reception

http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751R-Outdoor-Optimized-Reception/dp/B0024R4B5C/ref=cm_cmu_pg__header 


or a


Winegard HD8200U Platinum HD VHF/UHF Antenna

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DFS4BI 


$50 difference


What do you guys think?


----------



## Louis Bartay

I don't know how far you are needing to go for reception. If under 30 miles or a bit more buy the lest expensive one. I forgot we had a 25 year old out door antenna that I took down when we got cable back then. I ran a new coaxial line to the den and moved the antenna around in the attic unitl my major stations were all clear. WOW HD Jay Leno is as clear as my DISH we have now. Hard times are over (for now ) and we can afford DISH again.







My rabbit ears/hoop with 110volt amp. did a good job but our old outdoor that was just a analog color UHF/VHF works much better... I live in the Dallas/Ft.Worth area in texas so the stations are about 25 miles away.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Probably neither. Henry is 90 miles from Nashville and 100 miles from Memphis. Realistically, unless you live on a mountain, you won't get much except some stuff out of Paducah, if you're lucky, and some from Jackson.


Use your latitude and longitude coordinates tonight, otherwise, try it again in the morning. TVFool has used up their daily allowance of Google geocoding accesses. The direct entry of coordinates works anyway.


----------



## TaranScorp

Ok I got TVfool to come up with this:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d05594e69181602 


Mostly everything is in the gray. Don't tell me I'm stuck with the expensive Dish










Maybe a Channel Master CM-3020 with a amplifier?


----------



## Louis Bartay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TaranScorp*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3240#post_23468040
> 
> 
> Ok I got TVfool to come up with this:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d05594e69181602
> 
> 
> Mostly everything is in the gray. Don't tell me I'm stuck with the expensive Dish
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe a Channel Master CM-3020 with a amplifier?



Back in the 1970's when a Dallas Cowboy football game was blacked out local, my Dad purchased the largest TV antenna he could find and we intalled it on a rotating electric motor on top of a 20 foot pole. We bolted it on the roof of his house with guide lines to help hold it up so we could pull in Waco from Fort Worth(about 90 miles) so Pop would never miss a football game. It was a PIA to install and Pop hated the thing on his roof....... BUT..... we never had to drive to Waco and rent a motel room watch a football game again. My guess for about three months of DISH payments I could build this again. I stopped smoking and drinking so much beer etc everyday so I can afford the $100.00 a month for my DISH now that I am home all day. (I retired a few months ago 62) I have the Hooper and WOW is it a step up from my old Direct TV receiver DVR we had.


----------



## seatacboy

Has EscapeVelocity, the author of this thread, been heard from? He did marvelous and exhaustive work in his evaluations of different indoor antennas.


Since that time, we have had several new antenna products come on the market. Some of these may be repackaged "same old, same old" products, others are highly acclaimed, such as the Mohu Leaf, Mohu Leaf Ultimate, and various new Antennas Direct models.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3240#post_23552990
> 
> 
> Has EscapeVelocity, the author of this thread, been heard from? He did marvelous and exhaustive work in his evaluations of different indoor antennas.
> 
> 
> Since that time, we have had several new antenna products come on the market. Some of these may be repackaged "same old, same old" products, others are highly acclaimed, such as the Mohu Leaf, Mohu Leaf Ultimate, and various new Antennas Direct models.


I think he may now be posting on some other forum, but not sure. But you are correct, this has been a very thorough and informative thread that is worth continuing. Most notable new products include the upgraded paper thin flat panel antennas, which include the Mohu Leaf and the Winegard Flatwave. But I still endorse the Terk HDTVi/HDTVa as a very good indoor antenna, along with the Clearstream 1 or DB2 used indoors. And there is always the basic rabbit ears and loop from RadioShack that is a strong performer in suburban situations.


----------



## holl_ands

EV's last posts on this and the other forum ( www.dtvusaforum.com ) were apparently back in Jan 2013.....


----------



## tylerSC

I noticed this morning that Walmart is now carrying the Mohu Leaf Ultimate. Good antenna but overpriced at $79. New version with low noise amplifier. And the similar Amped Winegard Flatwave is now more reasonably priced at Costco, I think either $39 or $49. And Walmart also now has the Clearstream 2V at $98, in addition to the Clearstream 1. So there are some good indoor antennas available at Walmart, despite what their clueless sales clerks may say. Better selection than Target, Sears, or Kmart.


----------



## LurkerDan

So, this is my TVFool profile: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae3d9bde3628 


I am stuck with an indoor antenna, and would prefer omnidirectional. The location in my house is on the lower level of a split-level house (not a basement, but the south side floor is maybe 3 feet below ground level). The antenna needs to go on the northish side, but would be next to a window.


Would something simple like the Leaf work? Do I need to get one of the amplified ones?


Thanks in advance!


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LurkerDan*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3240#post_23563748
> 
> 
> So, this is my TVFool profile: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae3d9bde3628
> 
> 
> I am stuck with an indoor antenna, and would prefer omnidirectional. The location in my house is on the lower level of a split-level house (not a basement, but the south side floor is maybe 3 feet below ground level). The antenna needs to go on the northish side, but would be next to a window.
> 
> 
> Would something simple like the Leaf work? Do I need to get one of the amplified ones?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!



The Leaf might work, but it isn't likely to. That's because of the 2 VHF stations, plus your window is facing the wrong way. A rabbit ears loop combo is more likely to get the VHF stations. The Terk HDTVi or HDTVa would probably be a better choice. If you really want to try one of the flat antennas like the Leaf, the HDBlade/Flatwave should have slightly better VHF performance. Expect to have to adjust antenna location, height and aim for best results. Try unamped first. Good Luck.


----------



## Samaritano

Hello.

Recently moved into a condo and wanted to buy an indoor antenna to pick up local TV stations.

This is my TVFool analysis result. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aec88bdbee07 

Any recommendations in which antenna to get?

Thanks.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

A simple unamplified loop and rabbit ears is all that you need to get started. Place it in front of a north-facing window, if possible.


Do *NOT* use any amplifiers!


----------



## Samaritano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3240#post_23606873
> 
> 
> A simple unamplified loop and rabbit ears is all that you need to get started. Place it in front of a north-facing window, if possible.
> 
> 
> Do *NOT* use any amplifiers!



Great. Thanks. unamplified it is.


----------



## Samaritano

I went with a Radio Shack 15-1874 budget antenna and it picked most of the channels but it was loosing signal frequently and the location was not ideal for the wife. I ordered a Winegard FL-5000 flat antenna from Amazon and it works great. It picks up all channels and it is out of sight, which helps with WAF. Just wanted to share my experience here. Thanks.


----------



## deltaguy

Summit Source is selling the classic bowtie plus push-on balun for $2.49.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3240#post_23664460
> 
> 
> Summit Source is selling the classic bowtie plus push-on balun for $2.49.


Good to hear since Radioshack has regretably discontinued this basic item.


----------



## JeeMart

Hi,


Here are my TVfool results:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae2ba47011be 


I currently have rabbit ears with loop and built-in amp but the signal is kind of weak and susceptible to local interference (switching of lights, car driving by). The antenna is just sitting in the living room of a one storey house. I was thinking of getting an "outdoor" antenna and install it in the attic but most of these are UHF only, or VHF-Hi and UHF. The TVfool results don't show it but there are a few other stations in the VHF-Lo range that we enjoy watching (when the conditions are just right). I was wondering if the Terk HDTV might give me better results and if the beam width is wide enough to capture the stations that are sitting 60 degrees apart without having to re-orient the antenna. Thanks.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

CIII-DT in Ottawa recently moved from VHF 6 to UHF 14 this summer, so that eliminates the low-VHF requirement. The TVFool database has not been updated.


I'd try a ClearStream 2V pointed due west. It has a wide 65-70 degree beamwidth on UHF and high-VHF.


----------



## MarcKyle64

I live in an old apartment building with LOTS of concrete walls between me and the stations in my area. I'm using a Terk2 amplified antenna and am about 30-40 feet above street level. The antenna is in the only window available to me and it unfortunately faces East. Repositioning doesn't help much because the farther from the window I am, the choppier the signals get and the Terk will fall off the window sill unless it's right up against the window. Looking at my TV fool results, I can't receive any station with a -dB lower than 56 or so despite having scanned and rescanned for available stations. I was living on a higher westward facing floor while the management remodeled my apartment and was able to get a lot more stations than I can now. Here's my TV fool analysis:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae68cfb3036d 


Anyhow, I found this forum while searching for opinions about the RCA ANT650 that was recommended in this month's edition of Consumer Reports. Thanks so much for being here!


Marc


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MarcKyle64*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3240#post_23725494
> 
> 
> I live in an old apartment building with LOTS of concrete walls between me and the stations in my area. I'm using a Terk2 amplified antenna and am about 30-40 feet above street level. The antenna is in the only window available to me and it unfortunately faces East. Repositioning doesn't help much because the farther from the window I am, the choppier the signals get and the Terk will fall off the window sill unless it's right up against the window. Looking at my TV fool results, I can't receive any station with a -dB lower than 56 or so despite having scanned and rescanned for available stations. I was living on a higher westward facing floor while the management remodeled my apartment and was able to get a lot more stations than I can now. Here's my TV fool analysis:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae68cfb3036d
> 
> 
> Anyhow, I found this forum while searching for opinions about the RCA ANT650 that was recommended in this month's edition of Consumer Reports. Thanks so much for being here!
> 
> 
> Marc



What sort of amplifier are you using with the Terk TV2? Are you currently able to watch CBS and PBS reliably? Those are your VHF signals there. Do you have something like a TV tray that you could move near to the window in order to try different heights for the antenna?


----------



## MarcKyle64

I can get PBS very reliably, CBS can be shaky but will come in okay for 10 minutes and then start with the interference lines and blocks with an occasional 'no signal'. Other times it will be strong all day & night. I'm using the amplifier that came with my Terk 2 flat antenna, I'm not sure how much it's supposed to boost.


The other night I did a rescan of the digital converter box and signals from Memphis which is 140 miles away came in for about an hour. It must have been something to do with the atmosphere because they stopped coming in after that. What was odd was that the weaker stations close to me in Little Rock STILL didn't come in strong enough for my box to get past the 'no signal' message on my TV. Of course my window faces towards Memphis.


A TV tray won't work because the a/c is installed right below the window with the air ducts right at kneecap height.


I knew the digital switchover was going to be a big pain for us. Why didn't the FCC specify a proper antenna standard that reliably worked like the old rabbit ears and bow tie did for my analog TV? I've wasted more time and money trying to make their junk work than I ever did back then. I still refuse to get cable, no matter how bad it gets. I have better ways to spend $60-$90 a month than paying to watch reality shows on the History Channel, commercial interrupted movies on AMC, and not-playing-music-anymore MTV.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MarcKyle64*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3240#post_23730218
> 
> 
> I can get PBS very reliably, CBS can be shaky but will come in okay for 10 minutes and then start with the interference lines and blocks with an occasional 'no signal'. Other times it will be strong all day & night. I'm using the amplifier that came with my Terk 2 flat antenna, I'm not sure how much it's supposed to boost.
> 
> 
> The other night I did a rescan of the digital converter box and signals from Memphis which is 140 miles away came in for about an hour. It must have been something to do with the atmosphere because they stopped coming in after that. What was odd was that the weaker stations close to me in Little Rock STILL didn't come in strong enough for my box to get past the 'no signal' message on my TV. Of course my window faces towards Memphis.
> 
> 
> A TV tray won't work because the a/c is installed right below the window with the air ducts right at kneecap height.
> 
> 
> I knew the digital switchover was going to be a big pain for us. Why didn't the FCC specify a proper antenna standard that reliably worked like the old rabbit ears and bow tie did for my analog TV? I've wasted more time and money trying to make their junk work than I ever did back then. I still refuse to get cable, no matter how bad it gets. I have better ways to spend $60-$90 a month than paying to watch reality shows on the History Channel, commercial interrupted movies on AMC, and not-playing-music-anymore MTV.



I'm still not sure on exactly what antenna you are using now. The Terk TV2 is an unamplified rabbit ears/loop antenna. If you are using an antenna similar to the RCA you asked about, it probably won't do a lot better. The RCA weighs somewhere around 2 pounds. Again, you will have no choice with regards to the height. The window sill will be the only choice. A lightweight antenna, like the new thin ones, would give a better chance for different height and location. A classic bowtie wouldn't be out of the question for you. It's impossible to predict what, if anything, will work indoors.


----------



## MarcKyle64

I went to the Terk website. I have the FDTV2A flat antenna with an inline amp.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MarcKyle64*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3240#post_23730672
> 
> 
> I went to the Terk website. I have the FDTV2A flat antenna with an inline amp.



That certainly looks similar to the RCA. If you haven't tried unamplified, I'd do so. I like the classic bowtie available from Summit Source. I learned Summit Source was selling them from this:

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/?tag=indoor-tv-antenna-review


----------



## MarcKyle64

I just won an RCA ANT525 with the rabbit ear antennas and a round UHF loop with adjustable gain control on eBay for $13.75. The specs say it has 45dB of amplification, so if I can't pull in stations with this, then it's not gonna happen! I just have to stay near the window. If it works better than what I have now, then I'll keep my Terk for my other TV and bid on a cheap converter box.


Thanks for the input guys!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> The specs say it has 45dB of amplification,



Yeah, that's a train wreck coming down the track....


----------



## MarcKyle64

Well, if I unplug the amplification on my Terk, then I lose *all* my stations completely except for 7.1 and it's two sub-channels and 16.1


Four channels out of fourteen that come in now. Since the gain is adjustable, I can turn it up for the weak stations and dial it back for the strong ones. I can always sell it on eBay if I'm not happy.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Unplugging the power supply to amplifiers usually turns them into a brick. Your results demonstrate that.


----------



## deltaguy

I've personally compared the classic bowtie to a Philips MANT510. The MANT510 has 50db gain and is adjustable. It's also collecting dust. In an earlier test, the hdtvexpert saw the bowtie defeat an antenna with an asking price of around $80. There are no guarantees of course.


----------



## Artwood

Have indoor antennas improved since this thread started?


If they held a vote here at AVS for the greatest indoor antenna of all times--which one would win?


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Artwood*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3240#post_23788599
> 
> 
> Have indoor antennas improved since this thread started?
> 
> 
> If they held a vote here at AVS for the greatest indoor antenna of all times--which one would win?


I don't think there have been any significant upgrades or revolutionary breakthroughs. Some are still decent, others are still overpriced crap. The basic rabbit ears and loop from Radioshack is still a good starting point, and I like the Terk HDTVi/HDTVa as an upgrade option. But I still think a Clearstream 1 or 2, and a DB2 make good indoor antennas. Although some folks have had good luck with the Mohu Leaf and Winegard Flatwave. But they tend to be trendy overpriced novelties with a slim and discreet form factor. But apparently they can perform well in certain situations. But again, location, location, location.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Artwood*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3240#post_23788599
> 
> 
> Have indoor antennas improved since this thread started?
> 
> 
> If they held a vote here at AVS for the greatest indoor antenna of all times--which one would win?



The greatest indoor antenna of all times would be rabbit ears. The runner-up would be the classic bowtie.


----------



## Artwood

3271 posts to hear that rabbit ears are great!


I tried a clearstream 2 but it couldn't overcome aluminum siding in my apartment complex. Can any indoor antenna overcome that or do you just have to go outside in such a situation?


I'm back to DirecTV but sometimes I do miss subchannels that I don't get anymore and sometimes OTA HD is better than what satellite provides.


----------



## holl_ands

My "Best Indoor" Antennas have been a 4-Bay Bowtie with Preamp hidden behind a big chair in my old apartment, a CM-4228 8-Bay Bowtie with Preamp in an upstairs closet I currently use and my son has a UHF CM-4228 with Preamp and a Hi-VHF YA-1713 Antennas in his Attic (technically still "indoors").


There is no such thing as ONE "Best" Indoor Antenna, even if we restrict the definition to those intended to be connected to the TV via a relatively short cord....and are small and hence LOW GAIN.


a) Except when VERY close to FM or TV transmitters, a Variable-Gain, Amplified Antenna is preferable for indoor use for two reasons: 1) if it doesn't suffer from Overload, the SYSTEM Noise Figure could improve by 5-10 dB, meaning it is more Sensitive and 2) an amplified antenna allows the designer to make a much better SWR match, thereby reducing not only the Mis-Match Loss, but also the Error Vector Magnitude (EVM) digital signal decoding Loss.


b) Many people have LOCAL towers located in several directions that NEED an Quasi-Omni (usually Bi-Directional) Antenna Pattern, which is typical of Rabbit-Ears+Loop Antennas.


c) Many people have reflected Multipath signals that NEED a Directional Antenna Pattern to suppress the unwanted multipath signals, which is typical of Silver Sensor LPDA (aka Terk HDTVa & HDTVi) Antennas. These people also MAY benefit from a Window mounted Antenna, such as a 2-Bay Bowtie.


d) Many people have lots of metal rebar in the walls and/or Aluminized Mylar Thermal "Wrap" and/or Low-E Glass with metallic coating, all of which greatly attenuates VHF/UHF signals....and hence need a LOT higher Antenna Gain than provided by simple Rabbit-Ears+Loop.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Artwood*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_23793440
> 
> 
> 3271 posts to hear that rabbit ears are great!
> 
> 
> I tried a clearstream 2 but it couldn't overcome aluminum siding in my apartment complex. Can any indoor antenna overcome that or do you just have to go outside in such a situation?
> 
> 
> I'm back to DirecTV but sometimes I do miss subchannels that I don't get anymore and sometimes OTA HD is better than what satellite provides.



Did you try any other antennas prior to the CS2? I have tried a DB2e in one room where it was laughable for reception. A Leaf or a HDBlade/Flatwave far outperforms it. To be fair to the DB2e, it is far superior in another room in receiving signals from stations farther away.


----------



## popuvamp


Hello,

This is my TVFool Report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae3974088c8b

I thinking about getting a Mohu Leaf Antenna, does that seem like it would work ok? Or are there better recommendations?

Also, i'm on the top floor of a three apartment building, so maybe that will help with my reception too?

Thanks so much!!


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *popuvamp*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_23829574
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> This is my TVFool Report:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae3974088c8b
> 
> I thinking about getting a Mohu Leaf Antenna, does that seem like it would work ok? Or are there better recommendations?
> 
> Also, i'm on the top floor of a three apartment building, so maybe that will help with my reception too?
> 
> Thanks so much!!



What will work indoors is impossible to predict. Consumer Reports had a story about indoor antennas recently. They tested with different people in different locations all around NYC. They observed that an antenna that works well in one location performs poorly elsewhere. The antenna is not the only factor that determines reception quality. So, buy from a vendor that allows returns. Signal levels at your location are certainly strong enough for the Leaf to work. It's the other factors that are impossible to predict. Good Luck.


----------



## MrBill303


I read an earlier post that I need to have three under my belt before I can include my Tvfool link  .. so here goes ... #1


----------



## MrBill303


... #2


----------



## MrBill303


.. and #3


----------



## MrBill303


Please help ...    I've read and researched myself to total confusion ....     

 

I am open to rooftop, indoor, or a combination. I am at the point of frustration where I just need some solid answers/advice as to what I should do  .. and this seems to be the place to find people with the experience and expertise to guide me in the right direction ....

 

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aec6c70406be

 

 

.. Thank you


----------



## holl_ands

Pretty much ANYTHING Cheap and NON-Amplified will work Indoors, given your TVFool Report, which indicates over 50 dB of Net Margin (NM) for all Digital stations in the Green Zone....which might be reduced by as much as 20 dB due to the Indoor location, leaving lots of margin in reserve. But, make sure you can return any antenna you buy in case you need to upgrade.


Generic Rabbit-Ears/Loop ($10-20) and more directional Terk HDTVi ($26, includes Rabbit-Ears) provide the biggest bang for the buck. You should also look at the list in Post #1 in this tread for EV's Favorites. [Each Rabbit Ear should be set at 14.5-in length....so they are fairly unobtrusive.]


Higher cost Mohu Leaf, RCA Flat Panels (and other similar antennas) are primarily UHF Antennas, but with your very high signal levels on Ch7 & Ch9 [NM=70+ dB] "should" work just fine....and don't have the ugly Rabbit-Ears to deal with.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBill303*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_24078365
> 
> 
> Please help ...    I've read and researched myself to total confusion ....    I am open to rooftop, indoor, or a combination. I am at the point of frustration where I just need some solid answers/advice as to what I should do  .. and this seems to be the place to find people with the experience and expertise to guide me in the right direction .... http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aec6c70406be .. Thank you


Your TV Fool report indicates your antenna will be 25 feet above adjacent ground level - by definition NOT an indoor antenna. Maybe you should run your TV Fool report again without adding in a height factor. At 25 feet above ground, your reception results look very good but (as is all too often the case) transmitters are in different directions.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Just look out a west-facing window. Can you see the main tower on Lookout Mountain? If not, why not?


If you're "frustrated", you're surely doing something wrong...


----------



## seatacboy

Anyone out there currently using a Philips or Zenith Silver Sensor (a highly directional design licensed from UK antenna designer Antiference)? I am using one on a television in our kitchen with fairly good results, although my local area has three high-VHF transmitters and the Silver Sensor is essentially a UHF-tuned design. The biggest drawback to the Silver Sensor, and similar products such as the Terk HDTV-a and HDTV-i, is that when transmitters are in different directions, you may need to rotate the antenna.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_24082470
> 
> 
> Your TV Fool report indicates your antenna will be 25 feet above adjacent ground level - by definition NOT an indoor antenna. Maybe you should run your TV Fool report again without adding in a height factor. At 25 feet above ground, your reception results look very good but (as is all too often the case) transmitters are in different directions.


Antenna could be at 25-ft if upper floor (or attic) of a 2 story house.....or condo/apt....


Per TVFool Report (click on individual station report) all digital stations from 283-deg in the Green Zone are LOS and look DOWN on OP's location [note that Angle is Greatly Exaggerated]. So antenna height is only going to affect reception of 1EDGE KRMA-DT (PBS) from that direction. The 1EDGE reception is due to a mountain ridge located just N-W (Errata: not N-E) of KRMA's transmitter and their use of a fairly short stick (I downloaded TX Icons into GoogleEarth)....so PBS might be the most difficult station to watch. Stations from 29-deg might not require re-orienting the antenna if you can find a "sweet spot" for reception from both directions.


----------



## MrBill303


I look directly at the towers on LOM from ground level. My house is on a hillside so roof level is nearly the same as a two story. I have a 5 foot mast at one corner that I mounted a Phillips SDV8622T/27 onto, with very disappointing results ...

 

Technically, I do look 'up' at the towers  ... maybe 10/15 degrees ..

 

My 'control subject' per say is a small flat screen upstairs that sits in the corner of two exterior walls. That corner pretty much points right at LOM ..

I have a stupid push-on coax cap thing with a 3 foot piece of coated wire hanging off it. I think it came with a vcr or something from back whenever .....  Just that wire on that little Visio I get nearly every channel in the green, plus some other random unlisted channels ..

But down in my basement living room the reception is difficult. The tv is positioned in the opposite corner of the lowest part of the house from the direction facing LOM.

 

I've tried a couple of different indoor antennas downstairs ... 2 different flat panel brands from Best Buy, first was non amplified (did ok), the second was amplified (did no better)  .. tried one from Walmart .. it actually worked just as good as the pricier ones from BB, but was half the price .....  but they all seemed to each pick up different stuff too .. which is frustrating ..

 

Each time I've tried a different antenna, I've come down in price. Believe it or not, the $14 Phillips I have now from Micro Center is no worse than the $160 amp'd unit from BB  ....

 

What has me more confused is the Phillips did worse when I mounted it outside on the mast ..

 

From its mounted position on the mast it is about a 25/30 foot run to a 3-way splitter located in my attic. I mounted the pre-amp to the IN port side of the splitter. From the attic splitter to the tv downstairs it's probably another 30 feet of coax ..

 

One thing I have noticed when using an indoor antenna (and this occurred with them all), is that movement in the room plays a huge factor. Just walking through the room can interfere with the signal  ....

 

Since I've already built a mast and ran the feed into my attic, I lean more towards setting up an outdoor rig  ......  but, if setting up in the attic and shooting through an asphalt roof deems better, then so be it ....

 

Being so close to LOM and the elevation advantage it has over me, it almost seems as though it's a more precise target. So much so that if I wanted to target any other tower directions, I almost can't 'split the difference' and still have reception with a single antenna ....


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_24083144
> 
> 
> Anyone out there currently using a Philips or Zenith Silver Sensor (a highly directional design licensed from UK antenna designer Antiference)? I am using one on a television in our kitchen with fairly good results, although my local area has three high-VHF transmitters and the Silver Sensor is essentially a UHF-tuned design. The biggest drawback to the Silver Sensor, and similar products such as the Terk HDTV-a and HDTV-i, is that when transmitters are in different directions, you may need to rotate the antenna.



I still have one Silver Sensor in service here. I'm using it for a couple of UHF channels now. It did work for my 2 VHF stations, but only in a room with a correct facing window. Thanks to multipath, I have had to rotate and move every antenna I have used here for the Walnut Grove towers.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBill303*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_24083814
> 
> 
> I look directly at the towers on LOM from ground level. My house is on a hillside so roof level is nearly the same as a two story. I have a 5 foot mast at one corner that I mounted a Phillips SDV8622T/27 onto, with very disappointing results ... Technically, I do look 'up' at the towers  ... maybe 10/15 degrees ..


I'm puzzled at your situation, it sounds like you have done far more than most folks to get acceptable reception. While due to your hilly environs you may want an outdoor antenna, signal levels are extremely strong - perhaps an attentuator is needed. There are 14 transmitting stations a mere 3 miles away, at azimuth between 281 and 287 degrees.


I did have an odd question: at your location, TV Fool shows three LP analog NTSC stations (6, 36 and 45). What is picture quality like on those analog stations? Come to think of it, I wonder if the presence of those 3 very strong analog transmitters is compounding your difficulties in receiving digital channels at RF7 (KMGH - ABC) and RF 35 (KCNC - CBS)?


As for an indoor antenna to service your downstairs TVs - you are right that a big problem using an indoor antenna is that reception can be affected by people walking around the house, as well as pedestrians walking outside the house or vehicles traveling adjacent to your house. Similarly, outdoor antennas are disproportionately affected when there is a helicopter flying in the general vicinity (much more problematic than it was during the analog NTSC broadcast era). Maybe you should try using an old Philips or Zenith Silver Sensor, or the modern equivalent Terk HDTV-i, non-amplified directional antennas which you could point directly at the transmitters in the direction of 281 to 287 degrees. These directional antennas will sharply reduce multipath problems. Good luck!


----------



## MrBill303




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_24083923
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm puzzled at your situation, it sounds like you have done far more than most folks to get acceptable reception. While due to your hilly environs you may want an outdoor antenna, signal levels are extremely strong - perhaps an attentuator is needed. There are 14 transmitting stations a mere 3 miles away, at azimuth between 281 and 287 degrees.


 

And so now you know why I am so puzzled, and frustrated, that I can't pick up but a few of the stations from the towers that I can literally look out my window up at just a couple of miles away. I have ZERO obstruction  ...  I could probably use a laser pointer to aim my antenna it's so close ...........  (ok, that was a joke) .. but it is like, just right there (yes, I am pointing!) ..

 

I live on a hillside that faces north. The Lookout Mountains towers are just slightly north of due west of me (about 9:15) and slightly higher in elevation ... maybe a few hundred feet, plus the tower height. There are 3 towers spaced maybe a couple hundred yards apart (at the most) apart from each other (that's why I have 3 consecutive azimuths right together .. I am THAT close). There's a pretty deep valley in between  .. so I have clear shot LOS at the towers.

 

As well as wanting to hit the towers at 283, 286 and 287 degrees, I want to pick up signals from the couple of stations on the tower at 335 degrees, the grouping to the north at about 359/360, as well as a couple of the stations to the east around 71 and 100 degrees ..

335 could be LOS (I'll have to look). To the north is 1 Edge, looking across the top of a messa that is just about my elevation. To the east is obstructed by a tree or maybe two before it peels off down in elevation as you travel out ...


----------



## MrBill303




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_24083923
> 
> 
> I did have an odd question: at your location, TV Fool shows three LP analog NTSC stations (6, 36 and 45). What is picture quality like on those analog stations? Come to think of it, I wonder if the presence of those 3 very strong analog transmitters is compounding your difficulties in receiving digital channels at RF7 (KMGH - ABC) and RF 35 (KCNC - CBS)?


 

Instead of these channels coming in as blank digital blue screen, these channels are old school scrambled snow ......   The first time I saw it, it was sorta neat. I don't think I've seen snow channel since I was a kid and you used to have to turn the dial through endless clicks of that god awful blasting hisssss ..

 

36 is the only one that picked on a scan .. but it's just snow ...


----------



## holl_ands

Your tuner is probably being overloaded by the strong signals....esp if you have a Preamp or Distribution Amp in your system. I would recommend bypassing Distro Amp (if used) and also inserting a Variable RF Attenuator and slowly insert more attenuation until you get good reception.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBill303*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_24084034
> 
> 
> And so now you know why I am so puzzled, and frustrated, that I can't pick up but a few of the stations from the towers that I can literally look out my window up at just a couple of miles away. I have ZERO obstruction  ...  I could probably use a laser pointer to aim my antenna it's so close ...........  (ok, that was a joke) .. but it is like, just right there (yes, I am pointing!) ..


I'm not being facetious with this suggestion, but: have you actually tried using a humble paper clip as the "antenna"? In situations like yours where there is overwhelmingly powerful signal strength, that might actually work, other than for RF channel 7 which might require standard rabbit ears.


----------



## deltaguy

They sell an HD Blade MINI now. It's designed for metropolitan areas with nearby towers. I'm not the only one who thinks smaller can be better. It comes with an attached 15' cable. It would be easier to shield if that were a plan of action. Hills or mountains make me immediately think multipath. A flat antenna can be made more directional by laying it down flat.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_24087482
> 
> 
> They sell an HD Blade MINI now. It's designed for metropolitan areas with nearby towers. I'm not the only one who thinks smaller can be better. It comes with an attached 15' cable. It would be easier to shield if that were a plan of action. Hills or mountains make me immediately think multipath. A flat antenna can be made more directional by laying it down flat.


Same as Winegard Flatwave Mini. And there is the Alphaline store brand Mini version at Sears. Same thing.


----------



## Richard Lewis

This is my tvfool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae20ae1498d6 . What is the best antenna for my location in Forest, MS


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Lewis*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_24093348
> 
> 
> This is my tvfool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae20ae1498d6 . What is the best antenna for my location in Forest, MS



An indoor antenna is going to get you a PBS and a CW station, but anything else not very likely.


----------



## Richard Lewis

What would be the best outdoor antenna or attic antenna for my location in Forest, MS


----------



## pglover19

Here is my TV Fool Report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aeebe9edef3e 


Would a Antenna Direct DB4E antenna help pick up all the channels on the TV Fool report? Please advise ASAP...


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pglover19*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_24105939
> 
> 
> Here is my TV Fool Report:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aeebe9edef3e
> 
> 
> Would a Antenna Direct DB4E antenna help pick up all the channels on the TV Fool report? Please advise ASAP...



No, it won't. No antenna will give you ALL of the channels shown on the chart.


Try focusing your request on what you reasonably expect to receive.


----------



## pglover19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_24106782
> 
> 
> No, it won't. No antenna will give you ALL of the channels shown on the chart.
> 
> 
> Try focusing your request on what you reasonably expect to receive.



I am trying to get the first 9 channels on the FOOL TV report.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pglover19*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3270#post_24106847
> 
> 
> I am trying to get the first 9 channels on the FOOL TV report.



Then, in that case, yes, the DB4e would be expected to pick up the first 9 stations on the list, even the VHF station. A much smaller alternative would be the ClearStream 2V that can be purchased locally.


Of course, this assumes signals aren't blocked by a forest or by other buildings.


----------



## pglover19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3300#post_24106999
> 
> 
> Then, in that case, yes, the DB4e would be expected to pick up the first 9 stations on the list, even the VHF station. A much smaller alternative would be the ClearStream 2V that can be purchased locally.
> 
> 
> Of course, this assumes signals aren't blocked by a forest or by other buildings.



So is the ClearStream 2V a better antenna than the DB4E? I want mount the antenna in my garage..


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Better? Not necessarily except on VHF. The DB4e is much stronger on UHF which is great if you actually need it (you don't).


However, you can buy a C2V at almost any Walmart or Best Buy store without waiting for shipping.


----------



## pglover19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3300#post_24107197
> 
> 
> Better? Not necessarily except on VHF. The DB4e is much stronger on UHF which is great if you actually need it (you don't).
> 
> 
> However, you can buy a C2V at almost any Walmart or Best Buy store without waiting for shipping.



The DB4E is on sale at Newegg.com for $50 with free shipping... Any opinion on the 91XG antenna?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Any opinion on the 91XG antenna?



Yes. You don't need it.


Stick with what you actually NEED, not online lists and such...


----------



## pglover19

I will be connecting 4 TVs to the DB4E antenna. Is the recommendation to get a amplifier like the Channel Master CM3414. Please advise.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

You have PLENTY of signal power. You do not need an amp.


----------



## pglover19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3300#post_24110608
> 
> 
> You have PLENTY of signal power. You do not need an amp.



I will need a 4 way splitter in order to connect all 4 TVs to the DB4E.. So the splitter will not impact the signal strength? Thanks for all your feedback.. I will be receiving the antenna on Friday from Newegg.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

"PLENTY" means exactly what means.


----------



## DDLOP

I am running an epson 5030 projector in NYC and am trying to determine the best antenna and tuner for optimal picture quality, i am a noob in the antenna segment and was hoping someone might be able to point me in the right direction for a good indoor setup for a nyc apartment? I am on the oustide of the apt building and all windows face directly outside and I am in teh tallest building around so no complete blockage, any ideas would be greatly appreciated - thanks!


----------



## Artwood

This thread is over 4 years old. Have indoor antennas improved any in that time period? Are they any better today than back in 2009? If today you ran a poll here about the greatest indoor antenna--which one would win?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Artwood*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3300#post_24379711
> 
> 
> This thread is over 4 years old. Have indoor antennas improved any in that time period? Are they any better today than back in 2009? If today you ran a poll here about the greatest indoor antenna--which one would win?



I'm not sure that there are any better than back in 1969. Which do you think should win this poll? Since you've asked this before, you need to point out the possible breakthrough candidates.


----------



## Artwood

I periodically ask which one is the best because the thread is so long and one has to wade through many specific location antenna problem posts to get to any posts that have comparisons of all the antennas.


Every year you'll have arguments as to what is the best LCD TV in the world--what is the best Plasma TV--what is the best projection TV under $ 10,000 for example.


I just think it might be good if every year you could get an idea as to what is the best indoor antenna in the world and IF there have been any breakthroughs in antennas or amplifiers or anything else related to reception of TV signals.


This thread basically is just--I don't get jacks when it comes to stations and someone else responds--try this...


I'm sure that is a great service for the individuals that post here--I have no problem with that--I just want to know what some of the great indoor antennas are for I truly do not know.


----------



## deltaguy

Try page 1. The new flat antennas would wind up being around the classic bowtie. The most important concerns indoors are often not due to the gain of the antenna. Interference and multipath are very common. A higher gain (better) antenna is often no match for these problems. Antenna location, height, and aim are critical. These often need to be adjusted regardless of the antenna. Indoor reception is learned over time. There's no magic antenna.


----------



## seatacboy

Now that I've installed a rooftop antenna, here's some of my experiences using indoor antennas. Here are the models that I thought were acceptable:


First Place: _Solid Signal HD-Blade_ - same as Winegard Flatwave non-amplified version. Other than the fact that the Silver Sensor is very directional and can be pointed at a hard-to-get station, this was my favorite indoor antenna. It seemed to be more resistant to signal fade and break-up than the norm. High-VHF performance is good. I really liked this for an indoor antenna and was using it until a rooftop outdoor antenna was installed (Silver Sensor would get honorable mention here as well). HD-Blade list price is $30 but Solid Signal frequently has "one day sales" where you can get it for $20. Be sure to buy the version where you can manually screw in and connect your own RF cable - that's a lot better than being limited to an integrated 6-foot cable for finding the "sweet spot" for reception.


Second place: _Philips or Zenith brand Silver Sensor_. This is a very, very directional antenna. You may be frustrated in that the Seattle transmitters, Tiger Mountain and KBTC/Tacoma transmitters are in different directions. Using a Silver Sensor indoors, I never could get a picture on KBTC's Capitol Hill repeater. High VHF is surprisingly okay but it's really a UHF-only antenna. If you don't mind periodically having to move the antenna, I was very impressed with this unit. It's designed by a UK company called Antiference. You can use whatever length of RF cable you want. NOTE: AVOID the "upgraded" powered PHDTV-3 Silver Sensor that has the UHF elements placed low and VHF rabbit ears installed - that unit is awful. I understand the original Silver Sensor is no longer on the market but it shows up on the used market.


I briefly used a Terk HDTV-A which is similar. I bought it at Fry's using the pricematch with Amazon. But this Terk is limited by an integrated 6-foot RF cable limiting your placement options. I returned it to Fry's, it really did not seem to perform any better than the Silver Sensor even with the amplifier, but some people really like it.


Third Place: Mohu Leaf. The main difference between the Leaf and the HD-Blade/Flatwave is that the Leaf really is UHF-only. High VHF is fair-to-good. Also, you are stuck with an integrated 6-foot RF cable. If you really want a thin antenna of this type that you can stick to a window or wall, get the HD-Blade/Flatwave. Costs about $40, more than the HD-Blade.


Fourth Place: Radio Shack Budget TV antenna. For $15 you get a standard dipole-and-loop antenna. The loop is larger than most rabbit-ear sets and it just seems to be better than the norm for this kind of $15 antenna. I thought this was a fairly good antenna for the money. The integrated RF cable is 5 feet long.


Fifth Place: RCA ANT-111. $9 or so at Amazon, $10 at Frys and Walmart, I bought mine for $6 at Big Lots. Dipole-and-loop antenna, better than what one would expect. However, the integrated RF cable is quite thin and only 3 feet long. The above-listed units are better but if you just want to see if you can even get an OTA signal at your house, this is the "el cheapo" unit to buy.


Indoor antennas to avoid:

_Radio Shack 15-246_, $25. Visually nice looking unit - has a silver circular molded UHF unit and nice black dipoles. This isn't a rotten antenna but the gain is not weaker than the units above. One plus: you can connect your own RF cable, but this antenna doesn't offer as much "bang for the buck" as the units shown above.

_Philips MANT-850 powered antenna_ - looks really cool, has a very nice silver UHF flat-panel piece and beautiful silver base, the rabbit ears extend very high, but it wasn't as reliable for reception as what's listed above.
_
_Big Lots generic powered antenna, $10. Initially it might seem okay but the amp sort of has to "make up" for lackluster dipole-and-loop design. Better to spend your $$ on the antennas shown above.

_Big Lots generic non-powered rabbit ear antenna_, $3. Okay for FM radio. If we had low-power analogs, this would be okay. Really spotty reception, much worse than the ANT-111 or others.

_"Clear TV" antenna_, as seen on frequent TV informercials. I haven't personally used this one - it looks kinda like the HD-Blade but nowhere near as well designed. It's priced about $30 when you add S&H, and the reviews on Amazon are not at all good. The company peddling these antennas has attracted numerous customer complaints about misleading ads. Looking closely at the inner design, it seems like a really modest attempt at a flat-style aerial without the advanced technology of the Solid Signal/Winegard/Mohu engineering team.


Clear TV's infomercials imply that free OTA television is some sort of well-concealed "secret" deliberately hidden from consumers by the pay TV industry. They even feature a shadowy "deep throat" guy who says he is a broadcast engineer. That guy vouches for the quality of OTA reception, but asserts that local TV stations don't publicize free OTA reception because they are "afraid" of repercussions from offending the cable/satellite "Mafiosos" who pay retransmission fees to the TV stations.


Having said that, Clear TV's infomercials are a hoot to watch! I think you can even find them on YouTube or at the web site for "Clear TV'.


So there you have it - these are antennas I've used at our house, which is somewhat typical of the Greater Seattle area in that there are many tall trees that obstruct TV reception.


----------



## tylerSC

The Terk HDTVi uses the same UHF design as the Silver Sensor. And it adds rabbit ears for VHF. But if you don't want to be restricted to the attached 6ft cable, you can use the UHF element without attaching it to the base. You just have to find something to mount it on. And of course the HDTVa is the amplified version. I have found the HDTVi/HDTVa to be a very good indoor antenna. But for some indeed the Mohu Leaf or Winegard Flatwave/Blade can also perform very well.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3300#post_24474913
> 
> 
> The Terk HDTVi uses the same UHF design as the Silver Sensor. And it adds rabbit ears for VHF. But if you don't want to be restricted to the attached 6ft cable, you can use the UHF element without attaching it to the base. You just have to find something to mount it on. And of course the HDTVa is the amplified version. I have found the HDTVi/HDTVa to be a very good indoor antenna. But for some indeed the Mohu Leaf or Winegard Flatwave/Blade can also perform very well.


Thanks for confirming that the HDTVi is almost identical to the SS but adds useful VHF elements. If the Terks have the same Antiference design, then they also would be very directional.


----------



## Roger Lococco

There's a fairly new Mohu knockoff from Alphaline sold at Kmart, the SE-5000 http://www.kmart.com/alphaline-trade-enhanced-indoor-hd-antenna-se-5000/p-018W006415105001P my quick review is that it's fairly marginal for reception here in Briarwood, Queens, it can receive hi VHF WABC 7 well which is somewhat surprising, but requires much fiddling around the room to get the various sweet spots for other stations, a stationary wall or window placement would be impossible for reception on all channels. WPIX, WNET and WLIW don't come in at all. Bottom line, this is likely going back.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Lococco*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3300#post_24651465
> 
> 
> There's a fairly new Mohu knockoff from Alphaline sold at Kmart, the SE-5000 http://www.kmart.com/alphaline-trade-enhanced-indoor-hd-antenna-se-5000/p-018W006415105001P my quick review is that it's fairly marginal for reception here in Briarwood, Queens, it can receive hi VHF WABC 7 well which is somewhat surprising, but requires much fiddling around the room to get the various sweet spots for other stations, a stationary wall or window placement would be impossible for reception on all channels. WPIX, WNET and WLIW don't come in at all. Bottom line, this is likely going back.


While it is similar to the Mohu, the Alphaline antenna is a rebranded Winegard Flatwave made for Sears/Kmart stores. It is a bit better designed for VHF than the Mohu, and they also have the amplified version.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Lococco*  /t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rate...enna-review-round-up-guide/3300#post_24651465
> 
> 
> There's a fairly new Mohu knockoff from Alphaline sold at Kmart, the SE-5000 http://www.kmart.com/alphaline-trade-enhanced-indoor-hd-antenna-se-5000/p-018W006415105001P my quick review is that it's fairly marginal for reception here in Briarwood, Queens, it can receive hi VHF WABC 7 well which is somewhat surprising, but requires much fiddling around the room to get the various sweet spots for other stations, a stationary wall or window placement would be impossible for reception on all channels. WPIX, WNET and WLIW don't come in at all. Bottom line, this is likely going back.



Indoor reception can be full of surprises. I recently got a new tv in one room here. It is easily twice as large as the old one. Both tvs are LCD. Using a Flatwave prior, rf 10 was best with the Flatwave about 2 feet from the set. Now it is around 9 feet away. Before, rf 9 was best with the antenna about 6 feet away. Now it is slightly more than 1. UHF reception has also changed. It's like the room is an entirely new one for reception. That's the power of multipath. I do enjoy the larger television.


----------



## Alittleredhen


Hi, I am pretty knowledgeable about alot of things on the house, but electronics is a mystery to me. And I don't have a dad or brother to ask these things of. Please help me figure out which antenna I need. 

 

I live in Boca Raton, FL zip 33487. My house is single story. I want to put a whole house antenna in the attic. Currently, I have an amplified splitter (plugged into electric with cable TV line) with 7 dedicated lines going to each room.

 

When I look up the address on those sites, it says I have a strong signal from both West Palm Beach and Miami. It says I am 30 miles from towers in West Palm and 50 from Miami. It says West Palm is 20 degrees and Miami is 300 degrees. From that info, that I have signals due north and due south, I believe I need a multidirectional antenna........correct?

 

Now, which one...........? I read about them on Amazon etc. but unfortunately, I don't understand the technical jargon that people who know about these things use. I chatted with a rep at one of the big online sellers of amplifiers and he suggested a DB8e antenna, a VHF antenna retro fit kit and a 9 way HD drop bidirectional amp CDA8 for $285.

 

I have a Roku and have been living with that since Comcast cut me off after they figured out they left basic cable on my TV's when I cut the cord. But I want to get this done. I have started and stopped many times because I'm afraid of buying the wrong thing. I don't mind spending the money. I want to do it once and do it right. I don't have 7 TV's right now, but I want the house to be set up for more if I buy them. Several are still analog right now and I use Roku with those. 

 

Thank you for any help...........Nina in Florida


----------



## tylerSC

I would say save some money and try an HBU-33 Antennacraft, or 7696 Winegard. And an RCA preamp and an 8-way splitter. But that DB8e can be multidirectional, as each 4-bay side can be pointed different directions. But there are less expensive, similar versions from MCM and Solid Signal. Then add a VHF 7-13 antenna with a UHF/VHF signal joiner.


----------



## wtfer

Thinking of cutting my cable TV & going with OTA.

So what is the consensus on the best indoor TV antenna?
The reviews in the first post are probably outdated.

I bought a $30 antenna from walmart & it is crap & doesn't even bring in half the channels it is supposed to.


----------



## tylerSC

wtfer said:


> Thinking of cutting my cable TV & going with OTA.
> 
> So what is the consensus on the best indoor TV antenna?
> The reviews in the first post are probably outdated.
> 
> I bought a $30 antenna from walmart & it is crap & doesn't even bring in half the channels it is supposed to.


Depends upon location and whether you need both UHF and VHF. Sometimes a basic rabbit ears and loop from Radioshack will work. Other times the amplified version works better, which is on sale for $24.99 through Saturday. And there is the Terk HDTVa which is a good indoor antenna. And some have luck with the Winegard Flatwave or Mohu Leaf, but they are not necessarily recommended, especially for VHF.


----------



## holl_ands

wtfer said:


> Thinking of cutting my cable TV & going with OTA.
> 
> So what is the consensus on the best indoor TV antenna?
> The reviews in the first post are probably outdated.
> 
> I bought a $30 antenna from walmart & it is crap & doesn't even bring in half the channels it is supposed to.


Location, Location, Location.....

Some buildings have metal chicken wire for Stucco or rebar in the Brick walls and/or Aluminized Mylar Thermal "Wrap"....which severely attenuates RF signals....and if the windows have metallic LowE Coatings to reduce Thermal Load, then you may have very weak RF signals....OTOH, some people have very leaky buildings....

You might get better reception by locating the Antenna IN (e.g. WallTenna) or near a window.

Most new Antennas are no better than Rabbit-Ears, e.g. Winegard FlatTenna and other small, flat Antennas....and might be worse for Hi-VHF and for SURE are MUCH Worse than Rabbit-Ears for Ch2-6. Exception appears to be the Channel Master SMARTenna claims significant Hi-VHF and UHF Gain (I have NOT seen any verification).

Amplified Antennas MIGHT improve Indoor reception due to the (hopefully) improved System Noise Figure and (probably) improved SWR Impedance Matching...but if you have VERY strong signals and "leaky" buildings that don't have a lot of Loss, then it MIGHT "Overload", reducing sensitivity for weak channel reception....so, YMMV....

The BEST Indoor Antenna is a BIG OUTDOOR Antenna mounted Indoors...such as in a closet, attic or behind some curtains or a Picture on the Wall. For example: DIY Hourglass-Loop, DIY or commercial 4-Bay or DIY SBGH (see my Antenna Modeling link below and nikiml's Antenna Webpage).

Speaking of Location....you should go to www.tvfool.com, enter your location and then copy/paste the URL Webaddress (at top of your Browser) into a post in this thread....then we can see what the signal levels for YOUR reception so can assess whether an Indoor Antenna is even a remote possibility....


----------



## wtfer

holl_ands said:


> Location, Location, Location.....
> 
> Some buildings have metal chicken wire for Stucco or rebar in the Brick walls and/or Aluminized Mylar Thermal "Wrap"....which severely attenuates RF signals....and if the windows have metallic LowE Coatings to reduce Thermal Load, then you may have very weak RF signals....OTOH, some people have very leaky buildings....
> 
> You might get better reception by locating the Antenna IN (e.g. WallTenna) or near a window.
> 
> Most new Antennas are no better than Rabbit-Ears, e.g. Winegard FlatTenna and other small, flat Antennas....and might be worse for Hi-VHF and for SURE are MUCH Worse than Rabbit-Ears for Ch2-6. Exception appears to be the Channel Master SMARTenna claims significant Hi-VHF and UHF Gain (I have NOT seen any verification).
> 
> Amplified Antennas MIGHT improve Indoor reception due to the (hopefully) improved System Noise Figure and (probably) improved SWR Impedance Matching...but if you have VERY strong signals and "leaky" buildings that don't have a lot of Loss, then it MIGHT "Overload", reducing sensitivity for weak channel reception....so, YMMV....
> 
> The BEST Indoor Antenna is a BIG OUTDOOR Antenna mounted Indoors...such as in a closet, attic or behind some curtains or a Picture on the Wall. For example: DIY Hourglass-Loop, DIY or commercial 4-Bay or DIY SBGH (see my Antenna Modeling link below and nikiml's Antenna Webpage).
> 
> Speaking of Location....you should go to www.tvfool.com, enter your location and then copy/paste the URL Webaddress (at top of your Browser) into a post in this thread....then we can see what the signal levels for YOUR reception so can assess whether an Indoor Antenna is even a remote possibility....


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=d24331f12c441b

The reviews in the first page make it seem like those big double tie antennas get much better reception than the stuff I can buy at a retail shop like walmart or radioshack.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

The "best" antenna that you can use indoors is usually an outdoor antenna that you can live with indoors.

However, with a TVFool plot like that, almost anything non-amplified will work. A simple loop and rabbit ears in a north-facing window should do well.


----------



## holl_ands

You have extremely high signal levels...ANYTHING CHEAP (and NON Amplified) should get the job done:
http://www.frys.com/product/6800896?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/channel-master-introduces--antenna-with-free-shipping-/271986

Special FREE (+ $10 s/h) Clearstream Antenna for former Aereo subscribers:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/aereo

Simple DIY Projects:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/hivhfuhfveestickdipole
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfuhfveefoldeddipole
Fol. have Excessive Hi-VHF SWR, which shouldn't be a problem with strong signals:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/uhfbowties
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhfcircular


BTW: You'll probably get most stations by simply poking a paper-clip into the middle of the coax connector...and a short (15-in) piece of wire to the paper-clip would be even better.


----------



## deltaguy

wtfer said:


> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=d24331f12c441b
> 
> The reviews in the first page make it seem like those big double tie antennas get much better reception than the stuff I can buy at a retail shop like walmart or radioshack.


 You don't need an antenna with gain like the double bowties. I've one here and it performs poorly for green-level signals per TVFool. Go with something inexpensive and returnable if it doesn't work. I like the classic single bowtie (available from Summit Source). Good Luck.


----------



## ace5000

corrected:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=d2436663b27835

Hello Guys

I need an indoor or small outdoor antenna on for a 2nd floor apartment in a city area with a lot of houses and some 5 story buildings.

What do you think? 

Looking at a Winegard FL6550A or a MS-2002?

Thanks!


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Please use your *exact address* to run your TVF report. Zip code level reports are pretty useless.


----------



## ace5000

OK - used exact address corrected above. Thanks!
There is no line of sight - I'd be happy with 35 miles I guess?


----------



## lkaufma1

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=d2435dff272968

Newbie and looking for suggestions for antenna please.


----------



## Calaveras

lkaufma1 said:


> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=d2435dff272968
> 
> Newbie and looking for suggestions for antenna please.




If you're only looking receive the stations in green on your TV Fool report it should be pretty straightforward since they are all Line-of-Sight and strong.

A Winegard HD7694P an Antennacraft HBU22 or 33 mounted outside and not looking through large trees should work fine.

If you want stations in yellow and red then you'll need a much larger and higher antenna and a rotor. 1 and 2 edge paths are more difficult.


----------



## Fcarollo

EscapeVelocity said:


> *Welcome to EV's Indoor Antenna Round-Up!
> 
> 
> The Ultimate Internet Guide to Indoor Antennas!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some introductory thoughts.
> 
> *THIS GUIDE IS A WORK IN PROGRESS*
> 
> 
> These antennas are listed in no particular order. This list of antennas are all recommended and better than average.
> 
> 
> There is no one best indoor antenna. Environmental factors present a plethora of situations that no one antenna can be best for all of them. In fact, most times the best indoor antenna is an antenna placed outdoors or an outdoor antenna placed indoors. Some may need VHF Hi and UHF, others only UHF, after the Feb2009 shutdown of analog broadcasts. *Antennas are a strange brew, sometimes it's more of an art than a science, and while these are generally well regarded antennas for indoor use, Your Mileage May Vary.*
> 
> 
> Remember, outdoor placement is much preferred if you can swing it. Even if you get some of these outdoor antennas that are small, flat, and aesthetic and unobtrusive enough to go inside, they will do better outside on a patio or outside a window especially if facing the broadcast tower cluster. Some even put large antennas in attics.
> 
> 
> These are some of my personal favorites and I have personal experience with many of these antennas. Most are highly recommended antennas by others on the net and other AVSforum members in this thread; and in reviews and tests that I researched on the net
> 
> 
> The other end of the equation is tuner ability, sensitivity and selectivity. ATSC tuners have dramatically improved over the last couple of years. If you are on the fringe of reception even using the best antenna setups, you may want to consider improving your tuner with a set top box tuner. Both SD Coupon Elligible Converter Boxes and HDTV Tuner Boxes exist. LG and Samsung make great HDTV tuner boxes. LG makes some of the best tuners, and their CECB the Zenith DTT901 currently has one of the most sensitive tuners for those looking to keep using their old CRT NTSC analog sets. You can research tuners and converter boxes in the same subforum that you are now located in AVSforum.
> 
> 
> Please feel free to add your comments, suggestions, observations, corrections, experiences, questions, etc. They are most welcome.
> 
> 
> I am not an expert or highly trained and experienced technician, just an amateur enthusiast. I do not portend to be anything else. There are many other people on this site that are much more knowledgable and experienced than I.
> 
> 
> Special thanks to Seatacboy, golinux, fajitamosaic, Rick313, Rammitinski, and deltaguy, for their encoragement, enthusiasm, guidance and contributions.....and to KenH for making this thread a sticky.
> 
> 
> I hope this will be useful to others.
> 
> 
> Please let me know if you like it.
> 
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 
> EV
> 
> 
> 
> *Newbies start here! Read this first!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> *Antennas and Digital Television*
> 
> 
> FCC Consumer Facts
> 
> 
> Federal law requires that all full-power television broadcast stations stop broadcasting in analog format and broadcast only in digital format after February 17, 2009. Broadcast stations in all U.S. markets are currently broadcasting in both analog and digital. If you have one or more analog televisions that receive free over-the-air television programming with an outdoor antenna or "rabbit ears" on the TV, you will either need a digital television (a TV with a built in digital tuner) or an analog television connected to a "digital-to-analog converter box" (which converts digital signals to analog signals for viewing on your analog set) in order to continue to watch programming from full-power broadcast stations. This Fact Sheet provides information on antennas and on what is needed for good quality reception of digital broadcasts.
> 
> *Try Using Your Existing Antenna First*
> 
> 
> First, it is important to know that if your television currently receives good quality reception on analog channels 2-51 with a broadcast antenna, it should be able to receive digital television (DTV) signals, including high definition television (HDTV) signals, with the same broadcast antenna. You do not need to purchase a "DTV antenna" or an "HDTV antenna" to receive DTV or HDTV signals. However, consumers should be aware that if they use a digital-to-analog converter box, they will still need to use an antenna to receive DTV signals.
> 
> 
> Prior to making any changes to your current antenna or antenna system, you should check to see if it will receive the digital signals being broadcast in your area. Connect your existing antenna to either a digital television or a digital-to-analog converter box connected to an analog TV. Make sure your TV is set up to receive over-the-air broadcasts (as opposed to being connected to a paid provider such as a cable or satellite TV company). It may also be helpful to perform a "channel scan," in which your TV will automatically check to see which stations it can receive. In many cases, this is all you will need to do to watch digital television broadcasts.
> 
> *For Help With Reception Problems*
> 
> 
> If you experience reception problems, the following information and tips may help to improve your reception for digital broadcasts.
> 
> 
> During the transition to digital TV, many stations are temporarily operating at reduced power levels. If you are not receiving certain digital TV stations, this does not necessarily mean there is a problem with your antenna or receiver. Check with the TV station to find out whether they are planning changes that will improve reception.
> 
> 
> When an analog TV signal is weak or receives interference, static, snow, and distortion will often appear on the screen, but you can watch the picture through the noise. Digital broadcasting will provide a clear picture even with a weak signal and in the presence of interference. However, if the digital signal falls below a certain minimum strength, the picture can suddenly disappear. This “cliff effect” means that if you typically watch analog TV stations that have a lot of static and distortion, you may have to adjust or upgrade your antenna system to get a reliably good signal for digital broadcasts.
> 
> 
> TV reception can be affected by factors such as terrain, trees, buildings, the weather (rain, wind, humidity), and damaged/deteriorated equipment. Often digital reception can be improved just by changing the location of your current antenna. Moving it away from other objects and structures, or placing it higher can often improve reception.
> 
> 
> Many antennas need to be oriented or aimed to get the best signal from the desired station. For indoor antennas, you may need to do this manually by trial and error. For outdoor antennas, a rotor that re-orients the antenna can improve performance, particularly when trying to receive stations that transmit from different locations.
> 
> 
> Television stations broadcasting in digital use both the VHF band (channels 2-13) and UHF band (channels 14-51). Many indoor antennas use “rabbit ears” for the VHF band and a “loop” or “bow-tie” antenna for the UHF band. Make sure you are using an antenna that covers both the VHF and UHF bands and have connected it properly.
> 
> 
> Simple indoor antennas, such as rabbit ears, provide minimal performance that may or may not be suitable for your location. If you are unable to obtain satisfactory reception with your current indoor antenna, you may wish to obtain an indoor antenna that includes features for better reception of UHF signals and/or an amplifier to boost the received signal (often referred to as an active indoor antenna).
> 
> 
> Generally, an outdoor antenna will get better reception than an indoor antenna. If you already have an outdoor antenna and are getting good quality reception from VHF and UHF channels, your antenna should work fine for digital television.
> 
> 
> The performance of outdoor antennas can degrade over time due to exposure to the weather. If you are having problems, check for loose or corroded wiring, broken antenna elements and that the antenna is pointed in the right direction.
> 
> 
> Try to keep the length of wire between your antenna and digital receiver as short as possible for best reception.
> 
> 
> You can use a single antenna to provide digital broadcasts to multiple TVs in your home. Remember, however, that each analog TV connected to your antenna will need its own digital-to-analog converter box to view digital broadcast programming.
> 
> 
> "Splitters" that are used to connect a single antenna to multiple receivers reduce the amount of signal available to each receiver. If you are having problems, check to see whether reception is improved without the splitter. In some cases an "active" splitter that includes an amplifier can solve the problem.
> 
> 
> If you are near a station's broadcast tower, reception of that station, as well as other stations, can be impeded by signal "overload". Consider using an "attenuator" or removing amplifiers to improve your reception.
> 
> *If you decide to replace or upgrade your outdoor antenna, websites such as www.antennaweb.org and http://tvfool.com/ provide information on the locations of broadcast towers and the types of outdoor antennas appropriate for the stations you wish to receive.* If you need assistance with upgrading your antenna system, check with a local antenna retailer or antenna installer.
> 
> http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messa...79/468153.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sage advice from KenH.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/14136288
> 
> 
> In general:
> 
> Outdoors is better than indoors.
> 
> Bigger is better than smaller.
> 
> Directional is better than omnidirectional.
> 
> Mounting higher is better than mounting lower.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *Performance rankings.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide....YMMV*
> 
> 
> These are rough guestimations, based on my personal observations. They have not been instrument tested yet. Just because something is at the top of the list, does not necessarily mean that it is the best antenna for you and your particular situation. You may be best served by an unamplified model or an omnidirectional model, and directional and amplified units tend to do better on net gain and distance measures. This list is also most certainly distorted by varying atmospheric conditions. I will address that by instrument testing these all on one day, so as to minimize human and atmospheric error.
> 
> 
> Performance rankings so far.....based on EV's observations....Rough Guide....YMMV
> 
> *THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS and is changed and updated regularly as new and better testing data becomes available*
> 
> *Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof
> 
> DB2 with CM 7777 amp on roof
> 
> RS 1880
> 
> RS 1892 UFO
> 
> Antennas Direct ClearStream2
> 
> Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors
> 
> DB2 unamped indoors
> 
> Winegard SS-3000
> 
> Petra SuperPower 32db (Cornet 645A)
> 
> Terk HDTVa
> 
> RS Double Bow Tie
> 
> Philips MANT940
> 
> RS DA-5200
> 
> GE Futura Outdoor
> 
> Philips MANT950
> 
> RCA ANT806
> 
> Classic Single Bow Tie
> 
> Philips Silver Sensor
> 
> Godar Model 1
> 
> Terk TV-3
> 
> Philips MANT510
> 
> RS 1634
> 
> My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped
> 
> GE Futura Indoor
> 
> Terk TV-55
> 
> RS 1874 Budget
> 
> Picture Frame Antenna
> 
> RCA ANT1500
> 
> Channel Master 4030
> 
> Samsung Axession TV DA1000/GE Contempo
> 
> RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and others)
> 
> RS 1868 Delta
> 
> Terk TV-2
> 
> RCA ANT1020
> 
> Terk TV-5
> 
> RS 1870
> 
> Jensen TV 931
> 
> Terk TV-1 without Loop
> 
> RS FM Dipole*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EV's Favorites....so far
> 
> 
> RS 1880
> 
> RS 1892 UFO
> 
> RS DA-5200
> 
> RS Double Bow Tie
> 
> RS Single Classic BowTie
> 
> RS 1874 Budget
> 
> Petra SuperPower 32db(Cornet 645A)
> 
> Godar Model 1
> 
> Antennas Direc DB2
> 
> Antennas Direct ClearStream2
> 
> Channel Master 4149
> 
> Winegard SS-3000
> 
> Terk HDTVa
> 
> Terk TV-3
> 
> Terk TV-2
> 
> Philips Silver Sensor
> 
> Philips MANT510
> 
> Philips MANT940
> 
> Philips MANT950
> 
> RCA ANT806
> 
> RCA ANT108 (ANT110)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a chart designed by wwong incorporating the data that I collected in regards to antenna performance using a Zenith 901 Converter Box. Note the first 2 entries were tested on a seperate day, I was testing the Clearstream2 and used the DB2 as a control to help integrate the information into the above lists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...

Not sure on topic


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## seatacboy

EscapeVelocity said:


> *Welcome to EV's Indoor Antenna Round-Up!
> 
> The Ultimate Internet Guide to Indoor Antennas!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some introductory thoughts.......*THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS and is changed and updated regularly as new and better testing data becomes available*


Two points here:

1) With Radio Shack going out of business, this should be a good time to purchase some of the recommended Radio Shack antennas at deep discounts. The 15-1874 Budget TV Antenna is among the better "dipole-and-loop" designs for reception, as was verified in EV's test findings, and other decent-performing Radio Shack models are mentioned as well in EV's test listings.

2) Why has this thread been removed as an HDTV Forum "sticky" topic? There continue to be questions about indoor antenna performance posted in this forum. Who else has conducted rigorous, unbiased scientific testing and comparison of these different antennas? While EV apparently isn't hanging out on this forum, his work here is quite valuable, even though the new lightweight, flappy antennas (Leaf - Flatwave - HD-Blade) weren't tested because they weren't on the market until 2012. Please restore this topic as a sticky!


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## ProjectSHO89

A large number of the listed antennas are discontinued or are otherwise no longer available making their reviews useless to current (and future) antenna shoppers.

Since the OP isn't around anymore, it's probably better to let the thread go idle and stay there.


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## seatacboy

EV's "shoot out" among 20 different indoor antenna models actually was from a media market where all of the local TV stations' RF transmissions were on UHF. If some of your local channels are on "real" VHF, the results could differ from what EV documented. I do wish that EV would come back, his testing and evaluation was highly informative.

Newbies note: when this discussion thread was created in 2009, there literally were no lightweight-floppy flat antennas on the market. The Mohu Leaf, Winegard Flatwave, and their ilk literally did not come onto the market until late in 2011.


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## tylerSC

It would be nice to see this thread updated, as there is still a need for indoor antennas. And those aforementioned flat panel antennas are now being used, such as Mohu Leaf and Winegard Flatwave. While they may be overpriced and a bit gimmicky, they do apparently perform well for some users based upon location. And the classic rabbit ears and loop can still be found at remaining Radioshack locations, and the Terk HDTVa is still around. However, if discretion or WAF is not a factor, then I still suggest using a small outdoor antenna indoors, such as a DB2 or a Clearstream antenna. A real antenna is probably still the best performer. And if necessary, you can always add a distribution amp or inline amp.


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## tylerSC

And by the way, EV still posts in the plasma owners display thread, and has now apparently upgraded to an outdoor antenna. But it still would be interesting to see if he could still contribute to this thread, if he so chooses.


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## seatacboy

I am wondering if anyone here has, or could, perform a "shoot-out" comparison of some of the antenna types which were not on the market back in 2009 when EV undertook most of his testing and evaluations. Here's a summary of indoor antennas which should be included, leaving out some models which are no longer readily available for purchase - and I'd leave out the amplified antennas from a shoot-out for simplicity's sake:

Mohu Leaf
Winegard FlatWave
Solid Signal HD-Blade 
Channel Master CM-4001HD Flatenna
Clear TV X-72
RCA ANT-1052 ("Batwing")
RCA ANT-1400
Supersonic SC-607
Supersonic SC-602 (one of the very last "silver sensor" type antennas left on the U.S. market)


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## holl_ands

Numerous OTA Antenna Comparison Tests are summarized in this thread, which includes my recommendations:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...r-stronger-antenna-signal-2.html#post32823897
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...r-stronger-antenna-signal-2.html#post32963817


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## deltaguy

seatacboy said:


> I am wondering if anyone here has, or could, perform a "shoot-out" comparison of some of the antenna types which were not on the market back in 2009 when EV undertook most of his testing and evaluations. Here's a summary of indoor antennas which should be included, leaving out some models which are no longer readily available for purchase - and I'd leave out the amplified antennas from a shoot-out for simplicity's sake:
> 
> Mohu Leaf
> Winegard FlatWave
> Solid Signal HD-Blade
> Channel Master CM-4001HD Flatenna
> Clear TV X-72
> RCA ANT-1052 ("Batwing")
> RCA ANT-1400
> Supersonic SC-607
> Supersonic SC-602 (one of the very last "silver sensor" type antennas left on the U.S. market)


 I tried one of these. It's nice that the array can pivot 90 degrees. Having antennas at angles has worked for me at times. It would be nice if it could pivot upward as well. http://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Re...o-accessories&ie=UTF8&qid=1434256495&sr=1-162


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## seatacboy

*Do joined indoor antennas work?*

Some installers of outdoor antennas avoid using a "joiner" to connect two aerials pointing in different directions. The reason is that electronics experts believe this creates an out-of-phase condition in the overall signal strength and quality, in effect rendering real world performance less than with a single antenna.

So does anyone here have experience with having joined two indoor different antennas pointed in different directions? Did this help or hurt your efforts to pull in all of your local channels? I am particularly curious about those joining highly directional log periodic antennas (Zenith or Philips Silver Sensor, Terk HDTVi and HDTVa, and models from Supersonic and One By One).


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## holl_ands

First of all, let's be clear....using a conventional RF Combiner for two Antennas pointing in different direction ALWAYS degrades Noise Figure (i.e. Sensitivity) by about 4 dB due to Loss in the Combiner. And the amount of external Man-Made Noise will ALWAYS be higher...more of a problem in VHF (esp. Lo-VHF) than UHF Band...unless you have a nearby UHF Noise Source. MULTIPATH interference MAY and frequently is worse with two Antennas....however, this can be minimized depending on how Directive the Antennas are (hence hi-gain is better), how the Antennas are pointed relative to each other (Antennas tend to have NULL Response to the Sides, so best is when stations re at about 90-deg angles) and the relative angles of the SOURCES of the Reflections (Hills, Buildings, etc). So, YMMV....but for SURE, it's probably gonna be WORSE with an RF Combiner versus an RF A/B Switch.

I have helped MANY people with multiple Antenna configurations....MOST of them work well enough to be useful....esp. with strong local signals. BUT, if your reception is on the jagged edge of not working, it's a crap shoot....


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## tylerSC

Walmart has recently added the Terk HDTVa antenna, now LOGTVa in their stores. With a better Smartboost amplifier. In addition to 2 large Terk flat panels. So they seem to be replacing Radioshack as the better source for TV reception products, as they now offer a good selection of antennas including Antennas Direct Clearstream 2V and Mohu Leaf, as well as RCA and GE branded antennas.

And speaking of Radioshack, the remaining stores cobranded with Sprint are becoming a sad state of affairs for TV reception accessories. As the inventory is now dwindling to a few various splitters and indoor rabbit ears that may not be replaced. And the Antennacraft factory has shut down, so no more larger outside antennas unless those remaining on clearance.


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## tylerSC

seatacboy said:


> Two points here:
> 
> 1) With Radio Shack going out of business, this should be a good time to purchase some of the recommended Radio Shack antennas at deep discounts. The 15-1874 Budget TV Antenna is among the better "dipole-and-loop" designs for reception, as was verified in EV's test findings, and other decent-performing Radio Shack models are mentioned as well in EV's test listings.
> 
> 2) Why has this thread been removed as an HDTV Forum "sticky" topic? There continue to be questions about indoor antenna performance posted in this forum. Who else has conducted rigorous, unbiased scientific testing and comparison of these different antennas? While EV apparently isn't hanging out on this forum, his work here is quite valuable, even though the new lightweight, flappy antennas (Leaf - Flatwave - HD-Blade) weren't tested because they weren't on the market until 2012. Please restore this topic as a sticky!


For now that Radioshack budget rabbit ears and loop is still in stock, but may not be replaced after the current inventory is depleted. And their FM trap and UVSJ also seem to be disappearing.


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## ADTech

Stay tuned....


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## rabbit73

seatacboy said:


> I am particularly curious about those joining highly directional log periodic antennas (Zenith or Philips Silver Sensor, Terk HDTVi and HDTVa, and models from Supersonic and One By One).


See The Two Antenna Trick (indoor) at hdtvprimer.com. There is also an outdoor version.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=The+Two-Antenna+Trick+site:hdtvprimer.com

My security software doesn't want me to go there, so I look at the cached version at Google.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ntennas/silver.html+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...tennas/ganging.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


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## holl_ands

FYI: Norton Anti-Virus has no problem with it....

If you want to TRY using an RF Combiner with Two Indoor Antennas....then JUST DO IT.....worst case is another trip to store to return the Combiner & extra Antenna....most Indoor Locations have plenty of signal strength anyway.....


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## Bluedog225

Good morning. Been a while since I visited. Glad to see things humming along.

Question-Is page 1 updated? That is, I’m looking for a low profile outdoor DTV antenna for my cabin. Flat metal roof 30’ up. No electricity so not amplified. Medium reception according to the FCC site. Ideally, something I can clamp to my standing seams but I can work out any mounting issues.

I’d appreciate being pointed in the right direction or a specific recommendation. I hate to buy junk off Amazon. 

Edit: Big bonus if made in USA. 

Thanks!


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## tylerSC

Bluedog225 said:


> Good morning. Been a while since I visited. Glad to see things humming along.
> 
> Question-Is page 1 updated? That is, I’m looking for a low profile outdoor DTV antenna for my cabin. Flat metal roof 30’ up. No electricity so not amplified. Medium reception according to the FCC site. Ideally, something I can clamp to my standing seams but I can work out any mounting issues.
> 
> I’d appreciate being pointed in the right direction or a specific recommendation. I hate to buy junk off Amazon.
> 
> Edit: Big bonus if made in USA.
> 
> Thanks!


This thread has not been updated in a long while, and mostly focuses on indoor antennas. But if you are looking for a good performing, low profile outdoor antenna, then I would consider the Antop 400BV or Antop 800SBS. Good UHF panel with a VHF dipole, and also has an indoor stand. The 800 has a built in preamp with adjustable gain, whereas the 400 usually comes with an external inline amp, which also gives you the choice of adding your own external preamp instead if you choose. Other low profile considerations may be Winegard Flatwave Air, Winegard Elite, or Clearstream 4V/4MAX.


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## Bluedog225

Excellent. Thanks!


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