# Top 10 Things You Need to Know About Speaker Configuration and Placement



## pottscb

Ive seen an article proposing a setup that will enable all immersive formats to function (if one is a little compromised). In order for these these formats make serious market penetration this info will have to be researched, tested and published and referenced in EVERY discussion of speaker setup. Consumers are gun shy of being burned by, yet another, format war. No one cares who wins if the consumer loses...


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## agerson

For those of us with acoustically opaque flat screen TVs, is there any solution to the dialogue sounding like its coming so locally from the center channel? I know Yamaha has "dialogue lift", but I have an Marantz AVR. Is there any way to hook up two center channels, both above and bellow your screen, to create a less localized dialogue area? With a non-Yamaha AVR's is there any way to pump some dialogue track to height speakers? As much as my TV speakers don't produce good sound, I do like that sound appears to come from behind the entire TV.


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## imagic

agerson said:


> For those of us with acoustically opaque flat screen TVs, is there any solution to the dialogue sounding like its coming so locally from the center channel? I know Yamaha has "dialogue lift", but I have an Marantz AVR. Is there any way to hook up two center channels, both above and bellow your screen, to create a less localized dialogue area? With a non-Yamaha AVR's is there any way to pump some dialogue track to height speakers? As much as my TV speakers don't produce good sound, I do like that sound appears to come from behind the entire TV.


In my studio, I've found that Dirac Live running on a DDRC-88A makes center channel speakers disappear into the front soundstage. But that's not a cheap solution. I use center spread, which routes a bit of the center channel signal to the L/R speakers, that also has a positive effect. It's important to tilt the center channel so it's aimed at your head, whether it's above or below the TV.


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## Aras_Volodka

imagic said:


> 4. For flat-panel TVs and acoustically opaque projection screens, place the front left and right speakers within a foot or two of the sides of the screen. The center speaker goes directly above or below the screen—it should go above the screen if you have more than one row of seats.


It seems like the front speakers should be spaced wider. For rooms as narrow ours it's not really an option... but I find myself wishing I had a bigger stereo spread/ the ability to place the speakers 4' away from each side of the screen, but I can't move my walls. The center can handle the space between right?


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## RLBURNSIDE

I wonder if AVRs are ever going to allow you to pinpoint the exact center position in 3D space of your TV. That way, it can properly render dialogue with the proper height "lift" (or depression).

In the pic at the top, you could pinpoint a sound coming from the middle pretty accurately, given the height channels on the sides, and the L/R which have their tweeters about at the center line of the TV.

Personally I think many concentric drivers (tweeter in the middle of the woofer) placed evenly around the room, would give the most accurate and coherent and clear 3D sound. If you need more SPLs in the front, just add a few more drivers (or bigger ones). But each individual woofer should get their own proper mix according to their positions in 3D. Hard to do that with traditional speakers, especially LCRs which usually have multiple woofers laid out in a straight line. A straight line gives a line-array like dispersion which muddies the response in the axis the drivers are on. So, yeah, concentric drivers = no phasing, 1 mix per 1 driver, crisp, clean.

Someone should write a software program that allows you to add as many Wisa speakers as you want and place them anywhere in the room. If you properly redirect the bass and get some kind of wireless charging going on too, and a decent 3d speaker position calibration (like Yamaha's with the triangular mic thingy, ostensibly made that way to deduce not just the distances from the MLP to each speaker, but their absolute positions in x, y, z coordinates), then you could get the ideal dispersion I think.

Probably over-thinking it, bookshelves are likely going to be the best. I don't think most L/R towers are going to be very good at sound stage localisation in the vertical axis in their "zone". So it would be muddier to have those types of speakers and you're better off with bookshelves for every single channel. Maybe bigger ones for the front since a lot of the sound will be coming from the screen area anyway. But I'd prefer identical drivers all around, with very good dispersion and off-axis response curves in both axes.


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## imagic

Aras_Volodka said:


> It seems like the front speakers should be spaced wider. For rooms as narrow ours it's not really an option... but I find myself wishing I had a bigger stereo spread/ the ability to place the speakers 4' away from each side of the screen, but I can't move my walls. The center can handle the space between right?


It's just loose guideline. But keep in mind that with a TV, in order to maintain an optimal viewing distance you should not be too far away. And if you put speakers two feet from each side of a 65" TV, you wind up with speakers 106" apart (almost nine feet). More with a lrager TV. Unless you have a huge home theater and sit unusually far away from a TV (at which point you should consider front projection) placing speakers farther apart than two feet from screen edges is probably not going to offer much benefit because, as you note, the speakers will wind up too close to the side walls.

But it's just a rule of thumb. It's best to experiment with speaker placement since rooms vary in size and geometry. Plus, you have to consider the dispersion pattern of your speakers. Many high-efficiency designs utilized waveguides that limit dispersion. You don't want to place speakers so far apart that the tweeter can't cover the entire listening area.


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## imagic

RLBURNSIDE said:


> I wonder if AVRs are ever going to allow you to pinpoint the exact center position in 3D space of your TV. That way, it can properly render dialogue with the proper height "lift" (or depression).
> 
> In the pic at the top, you could pinpoint a sound coming from the middle pretty accurately, given the height channels on the sides, and the L/R which have their tweeters about at the center line of the TV.
> 
> Personally I think many concentric drivers (tweeter in the middle of the woofer) placed evenly around the room, would give the most accurate and coherent and clear 3D sound. If you need more SPLs in the front, just add a few more drivers (or bigger ones). But each individual woofer should get their own proper mix according to their positions in 3D. Hard to do that with traditional speakers, especially LCRs which usually have multiple woofers laid out in a straight line. A straight line gives a line-array like dispersion which muddies the response in the axis the drivers are on. So, yeah, concentric drivers = no phasing, 1 mix per 1 driver, crisp, clean.
> 
> Someone should write a software program that allows you to add as many Wisa speakers as you want and place them anywhere in the room. If you properly redirect the bass and get some kind of wireless charging going on too, and a decent 3d speaker position calibration (like Yamaha's with the triangular mic thingy, ostensibly made that way to deduce not just the distances from the MLP to each speaker, but their absolute positions in x, y, z coordinates), then you could get the ideal dispersion I think.
> 
> Probably over-thinking it, bookshelves are likely going to be the best. I don't think most L/R towers are going to be very good at sound stage localisation in the vertical axis in their "zone". So it would be muddier to have those types of speakers and you're better off with bookshelves for every single channel. Maybe bigger ones for the front since a lot of the sound will be coming from the screen area anyway. But I'd prefer identical drivers all around, with very good dispersion and off-axis response curves in both axes.



The Pioneer Elite Atmos-enabled bookshelf speakers (SP-EBS73-LR) offer concentric drivers for the mid/tweeter and I've recently been listening to them as pure 2-channel speakers with a renewed sense of awe and respect. Andrew Jones may be gone from Pioneer, but his final project produced a gem. He told me himself to pay special attention to the bookshelf model, that it was where he achieved something special audio-wise in that line.


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## witchdoctor

imagic said:


> In my studio, I've found that Dirac Live running on a DDRC-88A makes center channel speakers disappear into the front soundstage. But that's not a cheap solution. I use center spread, which routes a bit of the center channel signal to the L/R speakers, that also has a positive effect. It's important to tilt the center channel so it's aimed at your head, whether it's above or below the TV.


The diagram above has width channels. In my space using width channels make all of the front speakers disappear in the soundstage in multi channel playback. 

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/practical-guide-audyssey-dsx


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## witchdoctor

Aras_Volodka said:


> It seems like the front speakers should be spaced wider. For rooms as narrow ours it's not really an option... but I find myself wishing I had a bigger stereo spread/ the ability to place the speakers 4' away from each side of the screen, but I can't move my walls. The center can handle the space between right?


I don't think you need to change front speaker placement when you are using width channels like in the diagram for multi channel playback. For 2 channel stereo maybe.

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/practical-guide-audyssey-dsx


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## huhhuh

Interesting article. Unlike many other speaker placement suggestions, Mark recommends that surround speakers be placed 2 feet above the listener's ear level. Most others recommend surround speakers at ear level. What I've never been able to understand is that in every theater I have ever been to, the surround speakers are place high up on the wall, sometimes 15 to 20 feet. Why isn't the recommendation for home theaters is to have the speakers higher up?


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## imagic

huhhuh said:


> Interesting article. Unlike many other speaker placement suggestions, Mark recommends that surround speakers be placed 2 feet above the listener's ear level. Most others recommend surround speakers at ear level. What I've never been able to understand is that in every theater I have ever been to, the surround speakers are place high up on the wall, sometimes 15 to 20 feet. Why isn't the recommendation for home theaters is to have the speakers higher up?


With Atmos, the recommendation is ear level because there are height channels. However, for 5.1, 7.1, and variants that expand on the theme, there are advantages to having speakers a bit higher. More than anything else, it assures that one audience member's head does not totally block the sound for another audience member. But the elevated positioning also supports the context for most surround effects, which often involve replicating ambiance and fly-over type effects. More often than not, the slight elevation will "ring true."


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## imagic

witchdoctor said:


> The diagram above has width channels. In my space using width channels make all of the front speakers disappear in the soundstage in multi channel playback.
> 
> http://www.audyssey.com/blog/practical-guide-audyssey-dsx


That diagram is for illustrative purposes only. That particular graphic is for a DTS:Neo X-compatible layout.


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## xvfx

huhhuh said:


> Interesting article. Unlike many other speaker placement suggestions, Mark recommends that surround speakers be placed 2 feet above the listener's ear level. Most others recommend surround speakers at ear level. *What I've never been able to understand is that in every theater I have ever been to, the surround speakers are place high up on the wall, sometimes 15 to 20 feet.* Why isn't the recommendation for home theaters is to have the speakers higher up?


Likely because there will always be some idiots that will hit the speaker or poke the cone. "For a laugh!" While leaving the cinema.


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## tuxedocivic

huhhuh said:


> Interesting article. Unlike many other speaker placement suggestions, Mark recommends that surround speakers be placed 2 feet above the listener's ear level. Most others recommend surround speakers at ear level. What I've never been able to understand is that in every theater I have ever been to, the surround speakers are place high up on the wall, sometimes 15 to 20 feet. Why isn't the recommendation for home theaters is to have the speakers higher up?


This is to even out sound power acorss a long distance of seats. Nothing more.

If the speaker were at ear height, the guy in the end of the row would get blasted out, the guy at the other end wouldn't hear anything. Then once the effect pans to the other side, the guy who couldn't hear anything will now get blown away and the guy who was just blown away won't hear the effect. Placing the speaker high allows the SPL to be more evenly distributed. 

This is common in lots of PA applications, not just theatres. What you see in a theatre should not necessarily be applied to the home setting. Despite this, I think raising the surrounds up can add a spaciousness to the surround effects. Just that what you see in the theatre isn't what justifies the placement at home.

Hope that makes sense.


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## witchdoctor

imagic said:


> That diagram is for illustrative purposes only. That particular graphic is for a DTS:Neo X-compatible layout.


Have you tried adding width channels yet?


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## imagic

witchdoctor said:


> Have you tried adding width channels yet?


I've run width channels in the past. I'm slightly more enamored with Atmos than I am with DTS Neo:X. But if (in the future) I get a chance to add front wides to a system with height channels, I'll do it. I see a DTS:X-compatible AVR or pre/pro in my future.


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## Pitbull0669

witchdoctor said:


> Have you tried adding width channels yet?




I have them and Love it not to mention DTS-X will make use of them


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## blastermaster

As I've been looking at speakers and speaker placement for 3D sound, I've seen pictures of bookshelf style speakers used as ceiling speakers aimed at the MLP. I've also seen (from the Dolby site) diagrams where the ceiling speaker isn't aimed at the MLP, but is just downward firing. I went with the latter in-ceiling speakers and they are spaced pretty much perfectly except they are pretty close to the side walls. Is that going to pose much problem? Damn I can't wait for fall - I can't even test this out until I get a new receiver!


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## kharvel

I am trying to set up a 9.2 system and the surround speaker placement may not be optimal (due to mistakes made in wiring rough-in by supposedly professional audio installers during the new home construction):

From left to right:

(1) Front L, (2) subwoofer, (3) center, (4) subwoofer, (5) Front R.

8 feet away from screen mounted on framing:
(6) Surround L, (7) Surround R

12 feet away from screen:
Theater seating

12 feet away from screen, mounted on the ceiling right above the Theater seating:
(8) Surround L, (9) Surround R

22 feet away from screen, mounted on rear wall:
(10) Surround L, (11) Surround R

So the issue seems to be that there are 2 surrounds on the wall about 5 feet in front of the seating, 2 surrounds on the ceiling right above the seating, and 2 surrounds about 10 feet behind the seating.

Is this speaker placement OK for optimal sound? Or will the placement of surrounds (6) and (7) cause problems?


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## mtbdudex

For non 3D sound formats I share this, it's easy to grasp


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## satfam

mtbdudex said:


> For non 3D sound formats I share this, it's easy to grasp


That's the 11.2 set up I'm using. I had wiring added to a 7.1 system using the Audessey recommended setup. This was quite costly (relatively speaking) which required cutting attic access into the HT ceiling  Now, a year later Atmos comes out and I'm wondering if this set up won't sound right with Atmos or DTS-X. I don't have an Atmos enabled AV processor yet but any opinions? Thanks.


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## Kain

Is it better to place the center speaker below the screen angled up or above the screen angled down?


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## blazar

Kain said:


> Is it better to place the center speaker below the screen angled up or above the screen angled down?


below angled up. The front soundstage should be setup so all speakers are at the same level ideally. Also people's mouths are at the bottom of their faces which is where much of the dialog in the center channel ought to sound like it is coming from.

Speakers above the screen < speakers below the screen < speakers behind the screen.


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## witchdoctor

imagic said:


> I've run width channels in the past. I'm slightly more enamored with Atmos than I am with DTS Neo:X. But if (in the future) I get a chance to add front wides to a system with height channels, I'll do it. I see a DTS:X-compatible AVR or pre/pro in my future.


The Atmos 9.1.2 setup uses width channels

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/9-1-2-setups.html


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## witchdoctor

satfam said:


> That's the 11.2 set up I'm using. I had wiring added to a 7.1 system using the Audessey recommended setup. This was quite costly (relatively speaking) which required cutting attic access into the HT ceiling  Now, a year later Atmos comes out and I'm wondering if this set up won't sound right with Atmos or DTS-X. I don't have an Atmos enabled AV processor yet but any opinions? Thanks.


I think this is pretty much the same as Atmos 9.1.2 
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/9-1-2-setups.html


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## myriadcorp

If only we all had perfect rooms for idea placement.


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## qwho51

Is it better to place the center speaker below the screen angled up or above the screen angled down?
.
IMHO, When placing the center channel its important to keep the tweeters within 18"-24", up or down, of the R/Lmain's tweeters. This helps in keeping the sound fairly even as the sounds pan across the fronts. Angle them accordingly. Don't be afraid to experiment. IMHO,to help in creating a holo-sonic sphere, place the R/L mains and the center in a circle from the MLP, (main listening position). Placed at the proper degree of arc from the MLP you will find the center channel on an axis that lines up the tweeters from the R/L mains and the center in an arc. The center will be further from you than the mains, helping in a time delay effect that will help to create a solid panning effect. Using a string or tape measure, from the MLP to each of the channels, across the front, helps create the arc. Not everyone will agree to this layout, advocating a straight across the front arrangement. Only you will be the final judge on what sounds better.


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## mtbdudex

blazar said:


> below angled up. The front soundstage should be setup so all speakers are at the same level ideally. Also people's mouths are at the bottom of their faces which is where much of the dialog in the center channel ought to sound like it is coming from.
> 
> Speakers above the screen < speakers below the screen < speakers behind the screen.


Also, you can employ AT screen material to make a baffle wall for superior acoustics.
Via *Nyal Mellor site:*
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322baffle-walls/


> *THX baffle walls – design, build and benefits*
> March 25, 2013
> What is a THX baffle wall and why do I want one in my home theater?! This article explains what a baffle wall is, covers the acoustic and audio benefits and finally provides tips on how to design and build them.
> A baffle wall is essentially a false wall into which the screen speakers (i.e. left, center and right) are mounted. It is a core component of a THX certified cinema.“Unique to every THX Certified Cinema is the THX “baffle wall.” If you were to peel away the screen at any THX Certified Cinema, you will see a massive wall of speakers housed in an acoustic baffle. The baffle wall is approximately the same size as the screen, providing a solid, smooth and uninterrupted surface to distribute sound throughout the auditorium. It produces a large sound image and accurately tracks sound elements with the onscreen action. This makes panning shots and off-screen sounds more believable and natural, helping to pull audiences into the storyline. Without a baffle wall, sound is uncontrolled – producing a weak, uneven image.”​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Acoustical and sound quality benefits of baffle walls*
> 
> Baffle walls have a couple of major acoustical benefits which translate into sound quality benefits:
> 
> 
> *No speaker boundary interference* from the front wall behind the speakers, since the speakers are mounted flush with the surface.
> *Increased low frequency output*. The baffle wall essentially removes the ‘baffle step‘ which happens when the speaker radiation transitions from half space to full space as the frequencies exceed those which can be controlled by the baffle. If your speakers are designed for flush mounting in a baffle wall, as Procella speakers are, then you gain 6dB of headroom in terms of the ability of the speaker (or sub) to reproduce reference levels.
> *Reduced diffraction*. There is little to no diffraction as the front baffle of the speaker is flush with the wall.
> From a sound quality perspective these things mean that the sound tracks cleanly from left to right with no jumps, we have more headroom at low frequencies and we have better bass free from boundary interference suckouts.
> Note that very few speakers are designed to be baffle wall mounted – most are designed to be used in free space and hence incorporate baffle step compensation circuits or are otherwise designed to counteract baffle step losses. When placed into a baffle wall the frequency at which the baffle step occurs is moved significantly downwards, to 80Hz or lower, which results in a bass boost. It is possible to equalize out this boost using a low shelf filter.


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## Kain

blazar said:


> below angled up. The front soundstage should be setup so all speakers are at the same level ideally. Also people's mouths are at the bottom of their faces which is where much of the dialog in the center channel ought to sound like it is coming from.
> 
> Speakers above the screen < speakers below the screen < speakers behind the screen.





qwho51 said:


> Is it better to place the center speaker below the screen angled up or above the screen angled down?
> .
> IMHO, When placing the center channel its important to keep the tweeters within 18"-24", up or down, of the R/Lmain's tweeters. This helps in keeping the sound fairly even as the sounds pan across the fronts. Angle them accordingly. Don't be afraid to experiment. IMHO,to help in creating a holo-sonic sphere, place the R/L mains and the center in a circle from the MLP, (main listening position). Placed at the proper degree of arc from the MLP you will find the center channel on an axis that lines up the tweeters from the R/L mains and the center in an arc. The center will be further from you than the mains, helping in a time delay effect that will help to create a solid panning effect. Using a string or tape measure, from the MLP to each of the channels, across the front, helps create the arc. Not everyone will agree to this layout, advocating a straight across the front arrangement. Only you will be the final judge on what sounds better.


Thanks.

What if I have a huge TV (70+ inches) that comes with its own floor stand? Wouldn't have to place the center nearly on the floor and angle it upwards? Would this be okay or would it be better to have the center placed above the TV and angle it down?


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## BNestico

I've tried the surrounds up high on the walls and liked it but ultimately they wife hated them that much that I put them back on the stands. I've since moved to Polk RTi6 bookshelves for surrounds, which are enormous, and would look totally rediculous on the walls in my living room. The stands they're on now work great and I think they sound great. My surround backs however are hung from the ceiling but it doesn't seem to affect the sound field.


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## Zen Traveler

blazar said:


> below angled up. The front soundstage should be setup so all speakers are at the same level ideally. Also people's mouths are at the bottom of their faces which is where much of the dialog in the center channel ought to sound like it is coming from.
> 
> Speakers above the screen < speakers below the screen < speakers behind the screen.


I agree that the front soundstage should have their tweeters close to the same height and have run my center channel on top of the tv where it is closer to the same height as my mains--That said, it also seems that most heads (and mouths) are usually towards the top half of the screen in scenes....

Of course, when I got my first center channel it went on top of a large RPTV and was designed with riser feet in the back for that purpose...Nowadays with thinner monitors it seems center channels are being developed to fit under the tv and have feet in the front so they can be tilted up.


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## Otium

imagic said:


> With Atmos, the recommendation is ear level because there are height channels. However, for 5.1, 7.1, and variants that expand on the theme, there are advantages to having speakers a bit higher. More than anything else, it assures that one audience member's head does not totally block the sound for another audience member. But the elevated positioning also supports the context for most surround effects, which often involve replicating ambiance and fly-over type effects. More often than not, the slight elevation will "ring true."



My surround speakers are about 2 feet above the ear level, when seated. They sound right to me.
However I have an issue with the surrounds:
My room is a dedicated Home Theater with two rows of seats.
The receiver is a Yamaha RX-A3030 running a 7.1 system with two subs.
To set up the speaker levels I used Yamaha's YPAO.
The thing I am having issues with is that during a movie watching the side surrounds sound right but the rear surrounds can be hardly heard. Not too bad if I am sitting in the front row. However, when I sit in the back row, the side surrounds are overly dominant and the rear surrounds are too quiet. The whole experience of watching a movie is an unpleasant one.
Interestingly, when running a white noise test and measuring SPL, all 7 speakers achieve the same SPL.
Would anybody be able to point out where I am going wrong.


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## mtbdudex

Otium said:


> My surround speakers are about 2 feet above the ear level, when seated. They sound right to me.
> However I have an issue with the surrounds:
> My room is a dedicated Home Theater with two rows of seats.
> The receiver is a Yamaha RX-A3030 running a 7.1 system with two subs.
> To set up the speaker levels I used Yamaha's YPAO.
> The thing I am having issues with is that during a movie watching the side surrounds sound right but the rear surrounds can be hardly heard. Not too bad if I am sitting in the front row. However, when I sit in the back row, the side surrounds are overly dominant and the rear surrounds are too quiet. The whole experience of watching a movie is an unpleasant one.
> Interestingly, when running a white noise test and measuring SPL, all 7 speakers achieve the same SPL.
> Would anybody be able to point out where I am going wrong.


What type of surrounds? Monopole, di-pole, or bi-pole?
Are they mounted pointed at the MLP?
Where is your MLP, 1st or 2nd row mid-seat or ??

When you ran YPAO how did you do it?
When you run "white noise" aka set speakers sound level, are you sure seat-seat all have same SPL?
What type of SPL meter do you use and what settings did you have it set to?

Many unknowns need answers before advice should be given.

fwiw, my side and rear surrounds are pointed at the MLP









Dialing in side and rear surrounds can involve trial and error if you don't have accurate SPL meter or use measurement mic/REW.
It truly depends on their speaker type as noted above and your rooms acoustic interaction also.


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## DigitalAV

agerson said:


> For those of us with acoustically opaque flat screen TVs, is there any solution to the dialogue sounding like its coming so locally from the center channel? I know Yamaha has "dialogue lift", but I have an Marantz AVR. Is there any way to hook up two center channels, both above and bellow your screen, to create a less localized dialogue area? With a non-Yamaha AVR's is there any way to pump some dialogue track to height speakers? As much as my TV speakers don't produce good sound, I do like that sound appears to come from behind the entire TV.


DTS:X (and hopefully the rest of the object-oriented sound systems) will have the ability to make the dialog an independently controlled object, whereby you can discretely control its volume and (I would assume) sound field location. Indeed, that doesn't help you now, so in the meantime, slightly tilting your center speaker up or down as recommended can make a big difference.


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## rcohen

imagic said:


> I use center spread, which routes a bit of the center channel signal to the L/R speakers, that also has a positive effect.


One thing to watch out for with this technique is that it will add comb filtering and reduce intelligibility outside the MLP. This is a problem with any processing that does matrix mixing.

I prefer growing the soundstage by moving the LRs further apart, rather than matrix mixing. This works best with horn speakers, though, since they can direct sound away from the side walls.


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## Kain

Zen Traveler said:


> I agree that the front soundstage should have their tweeters close to the same height and have run my center channel on top of the tv where it is closer to the same height as my mains--That said, it also seems that most heads (and mouths) are usually towards the top half of the screen in scenes....
> 
> Of course, when I got my first center channel it went on top of a large RPTV and was designed with riser feet in the back for that purpose...Nowadays with thinner monitors it seems center channels are being developed to fit under the tv and have feet in the front so they can be tilted up.


That is what I was wondering. If I get a large TV (70+ inches), I'll have to place the center speaker very close to the floor aimed up. If I place the center speaker above the TV, it should be closer to the height of the left and right main speakers but probably need to be aimed down. I guess placing it above the TV and aimed down should be the better option?


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## Zen Traveler

Kain said:


> That is what I was wondering. If I get a large TV (70+ inches), I'll have to place the center speaker very close to the floor aimed up. If I place the center speaker above the TV, it should be closer to the height of the left and right main speakers but probably need to be aimed down. I guess placing it above the TV and aimed down should be the better option?


Yes. I would think so.


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## agerson

imagic said:


> In my studio, I've found that Dirac Live running on a DDRC-88A makes center channel speakers disappear into the front soundstage. But that's not a cheap solution. I use center spread, which routes a bit of the center channel signal to the L/R speakers, that also has a positive effect. It's important to tilt the center channel so it's aimed at your head, whether it's above or below the TV.


Do you feel that Dirac Live provides real noticeable benefits over my built in Audyssey Multi EQ? Could you tell me a little bit about what they might be? 

My Marantz only supports "Center Width" for Dolby Pro Logic II music format and not for movies. :-(


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## navimag

*Rear surround placement??*

This is great info. Can you address some questions about the location of the rears I haven't found elsewhere?

I just bought a pair of rear speakers to upgrade from a 3.1 to 5.1 setup.

I’ve searched this forum and read the standard Dolby setup advice, but am not sure about a couple of details. The main listening position is on a couch that is against the back wall. I plan to mount the surrounds to the wall, which means they’ll be slightly behind the main listening position. 

a)	Should the rears be angled towards the main listening position, in other words slightly down and inward? I know it’s important to make sure the fronts are angled precisely to the correct spot. It’s not clear if that’s true for the surrounds. They don't say it in the standard advice, in particular about angling them down or not.

b) The advice says to place the surrounds 1-2 feet above the main listening position, or at about ear level when standing up. That’s a pretty big range. Anyone have a more precise recommendation? 
i. Does it change based on the power of the speaker?

ii. Does it change based on the primary use? If I listen primarily to music and want to use 5.1 instead of 2.1, then does that change the recommendation? I haven't tested it out enough to know if I prefer music in 2.1 or 5.1, so it's possible this won't be a necessity. I think the standard advice is to use just front speakers and a sub for music.

My system based on Paradigm Monitor series:
Fronts: Paradigm Titans v6
Center: Paradigm Center 3 v7
Rears: Paradigm Mini Monitor v7
Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR508 7.1 receiver
Sub: Hsu Research VTF-3 MK5 HP—15”
Use: about 70/30 music / home theater
Me: I like good and appreciate good sound quality in general terms. I’m not an audiophile and don't understand the technical aspects of it.

Thanks for the help!


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## torii

I found having my front speakers forward of my 75 in screen was vital. Somehow the screen was acting like a wall and making my speakers sound depressed/lower spl...just not good. having my speakers 6-12inches in front of the screen did wonders.


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## czav

Hi Guys. I'm setting up my new theater and I'm now deciding on screens. Why I'm posting this question here is because I have a 13ft wide room and I'm debating on a normal screen and placing speakers to each side and below, or using an AT screen and placing all speakers behind. The issue is width as I have 110" maximum for a screen frame edge to frame edge.So, we have this...

1. Place the speakers behind the screen but sacrifice a wider soundstage

or

2. Place the speakers wider than the screen and gain width, but sacrifice appearance of the room by having the speakers visible.


What would you do?


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## Gary Lightfoot

build the widest 2.35 AT screen you can, put the speakers where they should go (left and right just inside edge of the screen, and just outside of the 16:9 area), and have you seating around 2.4 x the screen height back.


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## czav

My projector (Epson UB5030) only does 16:9 so 2:35 is not going to happen until I upgrade it. Front row seating is 11.6ft back and second row is 8" higher and 14" back.

I was considering in-wall speakers outside the screen's frame, but that would put me at about 8" off the side walls.


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## Gary Lightfoot

You can use the zoom method for a CIH set up if you wanted a 2.35 screen- your pj has the range to do that.

If you use in-walls, get those with aimable tweeters and to them in towards the mlp, and maybe add some treatments to the side walls if there is a problem and eq (if you have it) doesn't help.


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## czav

So you think it's better to have the wider placement of speakers rather than in behind the screen. Well the screen would be a little cheaper I think if I go that route.


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## Gary Lightfoot

No, behind a 2.35:1 AT screen: left and right just inside edge of the screen, and just outside of the 16:9 area.

This Dolby white paper shows you better than I explained it (top image page two):

http://www.dolby.com/in/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-specifications.pdf


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## czav

Oh that's a good document. Thanks for sending. I think I'm going to get the seymour centerstage uf, but I'll have to figure out that 2:35:1 thing you mentioned. I haven't even taken the unit out of the box yet as I'm just at the framing stage of the room. Worse case scenario is I end up with the center speaker behind the screen and I move the L and R out as wide as I can.


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## fito1971

Hi guys, newbie here.

I got a Denon S710W Atmos capable (7.2) some months ago and so far I just have the center, fronts and subwoofer installed because my living room space is shared with the dining and kitchen plus 12 ft vaulted ceilings.
I'm puzzled on how to locate more speakers, surround ones at head level is not an option because the back wall is 12 feet away and don't want cables on the floor.

The only option I see is recessed ceiling speakers but not sure how to locate them if I'm not using surround at head level. Would it be possible to enjoy Atmos with this configuration.

I'll appreciate deeply suggestions on speaker placement.


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## mikewinburn

Anyone using the SGHT speaker placement excel spreadsheet for immersive sound speaker placement? Better or just more complicated if so?

Thanks


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## vur

If your room has parallel walls, IDEALLY I believe speakers should be placed at ODD distances from boundaries. This is known as the rule of thirds or rule of fifths. If you use EVEN distances reflections will multiply e.g. double and reinforce a given frequency especially at low frequencies (long wavelengths) resulting in enlarged lumps. With ODD distances I think you still get lumps but they are smaller and there are more but I'm not sure about that. 

You measure the distance between the parallel boundaries and place at 1/3 or 1/5 or even 1/7th in. Then do the same with the other boundaries. If you can place the speaker say 1/3 in from the sides and 1/5 forward from the front wall, all the better. 

Aim for symmetry for a given pair e.g. both L & R fronts the same distance in/forward for imaging as you want the same response from each speaker.

Also, try to avoid parallel boundaries but if you can't, create rooms with odd distances between parallel walls, certainly rectangular and not square. A sloping ceiling avoids a parallel to the floor.


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## vur

As far as sub placement I cannot agree completely with point 6 of the original post to this thread which said

"Subwoofer placement is tricky. Putting a sub in a corner increases overall levels but may sound boomy. Placing it at the half or quarter point along a wall often results in tighter and more even bass."

I believe that at EVEN distances (1/2 or 1/4) you will get lumpy bass as discussed above. I agree that in a corner may sound boomy.

As you are dealing with very long wavelengths from subs they interact/reach out to all boundaries so try to tune to the whole room. The theoretical 1/3, 1/5, 1/7 idea may not be better. As the lows from a sub are omni-directional and we know it hardly matters where you place them as far as knowing where their sound comes from, a trick can be to place right where you sit. Walk around the room listening for the smoothest tightest bass and mark those positions. Place the sub in one of those that suits. That way you have (hopefully) tuned to the whole room.


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## Tyler9x

Hey everyone I've been trying to look for a good place to post this and have struggled so I hope this is appropriate. I just redid my room and have a 50 in. Flat screen on the wall and a full 5.1 system using bose 201 series speakers. I will most likely do a stereo setup, at most 3.1. My question was how do you think I should position my front left and right speakers in this room considering my bed is not centered to the wall in front of it. I've attached pictures below. Thank you in advance for any and all responses


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## dnoonie

Tyler9x said:


> Hey everyone I've been trying to look for a good place to post this and have struggled so I hope this is appropriate. I just redid my room and have a 50 in. Flat screen on the wall and a full 5.1 system using bose 201 series speakers. I will most likely do a stereo setup, at most 3.1. My question was how do you think I should position my front left and right speakers in this room considering my bed is not centered to the wall in front of it. I've attached pictures below. Thank you in advance for any and all responses


You should try to create an equilateral triangle between the speakers and the listening position. So place the speakers properly, then when you're not listening move the left one out of the way of the closet door. Just a thought.

Cheers,


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## dvdwilly3

*Either on-ceiling or in-ceilng for Atmos...*



fito1971 said:


> Hi guys, newbie here.
> 
> I got a Denon S710W Atmos capable (7.2) some months ago and so far I just have the center, fronts and subwoofer installed because my living room space is shared with the dining and kitchen plus 12 ft vaulted ceilings.
> I'm puzzled on how to locate more speakers, surround ones at head level is not an option because the back wall is 12 feet away and don't want cables on the floor.
> 
> The only option I see is recessed ceiling speakers but not sure how to locate them if I'm not using surround at head level. Would it be possible to enjoy Atmos with this configuration.
> 
> I'll appreciate deeply suggestions on speaker placement.


Side/rear surrounds need to be close to ear level...say, 1' - 2' above ear level. The only way that you are going to get that in your space is to put them on stands.

From a practical standpoint, I would stick with 5.1 vs 7.1. Put the surround speakers on stands slightly to the rear of the couch, pointed toward the MLP. Put them on stands and move them to that position when you are watching something. When you are done, tuck them into the "corners" of the forward wall...where the candlesticks currently are and tuck in the speaker wires behind them.

I would probably only go with 5.1.2...if you go with on ceiling instead of in-ceilng you would have a bit more latitude in aiming. However, your WAF may be better for in-ceiling...less visible. Look at something like Goldenear Invisa with aimable tweeter assemblies. Also, those are sealed units so that you do not need a back box.


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## jyothish

can someone help me to tune my new Yamaha Avantage 3050 with Pole speakers ( front left and right with A9 and center with CSi A6and surround with FXi A6 and subwoofer DSW660, but when I hear music sound is very lousy , please help me out o fix this issue


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## jyothish

kindly read as POLK audio


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## lizrussspike

jyothish said:


> can someone help me to tune my new Yamaha Avantage 3050 with Pole speakers ( front left and right with A9 and center with CSi A6and surround with FXi A6 and subwoofer DSW660, but when I hear music sound is very lousy , please help me out o fix this issue


 jyothish,
Which speakers sound lousy? I helped a friend set up hi A9s with a Emotiva AMP, and they sound great! Did you run the calibration for your speakers, and how do you have them set? DO you have it set for 5.1 in the configuration? What crossover freq did you have them at, 80HZ? Can you define lousy, as reference to what other speakers? What do the speakers sound like when playing a movie. Do you have a preset listening mode? Can you cycle thru the listening modes on your remote to see if the sound changes any in your speakers?
Thanks, Russ


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## Sal1950

I've a question on surround positioning if you don't mind.
I have a 5.2 system with Hsu direct radiators in all positions. Small room size dictates the MLP as a recliner almost against the rear wall. Surround speakers are on stands at ear level about 4 feet directly to the L & R of the MLP. Many diagrams I see show the speakers pointing directly at the MLP but I've found that to draw a little too much attention directly to the speakers. I currently have them rotated about 15 or 20 degrees to the front away from my ears.
Thoughts?
TIA


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## dnoonie

Sal1950 said:


> I've a question on surround positioning if you don't mind.
> I have a 5.2 system with Hsu direct radiators in all positions. Small room size dictates the MLP as a recliner almost against the rear wall. Surround speakers are on stands at ear level about 4 feet directly to the L & R of the MLP. Many diagrams I see show the speakers pointing directly at the MLP but I've found that to draw a little too much attention directly to the speakers. I currently have them rotated about 15 or 20 degrees to the front away from my ears.
> Thoughts?
> TIA


I struggled with your same situation myself and never really found something that sounded great but I found something that sounded good...
I raised the surrounds about 3 feet above my ear level. Recommendations below support that placement. 

http://www.orbaudio.com/hometheaterspeakerplacement.aspx
http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/

Cheers,


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## Pudzley

Very helpful, thanks!


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## ToonMasterTim

I admit I am a bit of an audio noob. I have only recently gotten into surround sound, and at that I am only dealing with a Vizio 5.1 sound bar (yeah, I know, but the room, the wiring, the wife factor...gotta do whatcha gotta do). And I have struggled with my rear speakers because they are often barely audible. If I feed PCM, they are louder, fuller, noticeable. But, if I bitstream, I need to crank the surround volume (rear speaker volume) up to max to get a reasonable volume out of them.

As for placement, I had them behind the couch and slightly out to the side, but facing towards the middle of the couch. But just recently, I put them off to the side of the couch by a couple of feet, sitting slightly behind the ear/head position and angled at head position, not pointed at the center of the couch. It has made a big difference. I don't know if it's correct, and I will probably move them again, but they sound good so far.


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## Inos

Very interesting and educative. Thank you for this.


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## mithrilG60

Something tells me the second half of the work day is going to drag very sloooooooowly today


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## dinofreedo

Thank you very much:wink::wink:


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## pnb2506

*Upgrading from 5.1*

I have a Martin Logan 5.1 speaker configuration. Theater is 24 x 13. Summit's front ESL rear and two Definitive Technology 15s subwoofers placed on the sides. I am considering an upgrade but am confused by 7.1, Dolby Atmos and DTS surround configurations. Welcome the opinion and suggestions of others as to what would be the next best step.


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## Newbie789

pnb2506 said:


> I have a Martin Logan 5.1 speaker configuration. Theater is 24 x 13. Summit's front ESL rear and two Definitive Technology 15s subwoofers placed on the sides. I am considering an upgrade but am confused by 7.1, Dolby Atmos and DTS surround configurations. Welcome the opinion and suggestions of others as to what would be the next best step.




I went from 5.1 to 5.1.4 atmos and it was a huge upgrade. If you have the room why not 7.24?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pnb2506

Newbie789 said:


> I went from 5.1 to 5.1.4 atmos and it was a huge upgrade. If you have the room why not 7.24?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the reply. Can you please share further details or a link where I could learn more about the speaker placement. 
Thanks


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## Newbie789

pnb2506 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Can you please share further details or a link where I could learn more about the speaker placement.
> 
> Thanks




https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technol...tmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf

Around page 19 is where the guide shows you how to place the speakers. If you're wanting to learn, read the whole thing. It's very detailed.



Also, an easy rule of thumb for 45 degree angles is that the two legs are the same length, so if your ceiling is 7ft from your head, then the speaker will need to be 7ft away to achieve a 45 degree angle.

There are great iphone apps of you don't remember geometry and want help on the angles / distance.

I have my 4 channel atmos speakers basically 1ft behind me and about 20 degrees in front of me and it still sounds great. 

Make sure to get a speaker with a wide dispersion...I chose the B&W CM683 but that might have been overkill. I ran the ceiling speakers as my mains to test them and I was impressed with no back boxes, but I get lots of sound upstairs.


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## kagtha

*Thank you*

I can tell this was well thought out from multiple perspectives. PERFECT starting point, thanks again for making it short and to the point. 

Cheers


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## holl_ands

ToonMasterTim said:


> I admit I am a bit of an audio noob. I have only recently gotten into surround sound, and at that I am only dealing with a Vizio 5.1 sound bar (yeah, I know, but the room, the wiring, the wife factor...gotta do whatcha gotta do). And I have struggled with my rear speakers because they are often barely audible. If I feed PCM, they are louder, fuller, noticeable. But, if I bitstream, I need to crank the surround volume (rear speaker volume) up to max to get a reasonable volume out of them.
> 
> As for placement, I had them behind the couch and slightly out to the side, but facing towards the middle of the couch. But just recently, I put them off to the side of the couch by a couple of feet, sitting slightly behind the ear/head position and angled at head position, not pointed at the center of the couch. It has made a big difference. I don't know if it's correct, and I will probably move them again, but they sound good so far.


 I suspect I know what is going on. When in PCM (Stereo) Mode, the REAR Speakers are "normally" supposed to be SILENT....but if any of the Synthetic Surround Modes are enabled in AVR (ex. Dolby Pro Logic, et. al.), then the AVR will derive the REAR Speaker signals, which you obviously can hear.

When in BITSTREAM Mode (DD5.1, DTS5.1/6.1, DD Plus) the REAR Speakers should normally be SILENT when listening to a DD2.0 (Stereo) Program (common for non-Primetime TV) and REAR Speakers will only be active when listening to a Program actually providing a SURROUND sound field (driving all channels, not just L/R part of DD5.1). If you select AUTO on your AVR, it may be switching between STEREO and DD5.1 Modes....but you MIGHT have to manually select one of the Synthetic Surround Modes to activate the REAR Speakers when listening to Stereo programs.


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## T S

Very helpful! thanks


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