# Home Automation profit margins...



## WRET AUDIO

For those out there that have posted recently about the "high" margins of home automation let me tell you what just happened to me again.


I have spent four full days on a home automation design with complete home lighting, A/V, and thermostat control control. I walked through the home with the customer, designed a system as per their input. The customer insisted on Crestron control which is a great and maybe the only way to do all of what they wanted. I put together an estimate which ended up at $150K. The customer tells me that is more than they wanted to spend. I redesigned it leaving all the functions they really needed and wanted. Re-submitted a new estimate that met their budget.

Friday I get a call telling me they went with a different contractor that had better prices! Come to find out the other contractor is putting in an IR based control system which I can't imagine could control all this well. So after all the time I spent on this, designing a system per the customer input, putting in the control system they insisted on, I have nothing to show for it. I might has well have been on vacation last week!


You gotta love this business!


----------



## jkv

Last year I got burned like this on a very large job. At that point, for jobs like this, I now require a "design fee". This amount of this fee depends on the size/type of the job and ranges from $500 upwards and can go as high as $10,000. When I'm done, the customer "owns" the design and he/she can shop it around all they want. If the customer does go else where, at least I have something to show for my work. If the customer wishes to continue the relationship with me, the design fee is then credited against the final cost...not sure if this would work for your business model, but it has helped me weed out a few folks who are just looking for a design. Of course, I probably have lost some business, but at least I'm no longer working for free.


----------



## IVB

Ouch, that sucks. Two bits of lemonade to be made here:

1) That's not someone you want as a client anyway; constantly nitpicking every non-lowend purchasing decision you make

2) Perhaps when the guy sees it work, he'll regret going the cheap-end route.


FWIW, when I was in technology consulting (not a/v, but a close analogy) doing fixed-fee projects, i was more than willing to spend .1% of the overall project time giving directional guidance and cost paramters for free. If the client decided to go with me, then i'd do the requirements part of the project for a fixed price, at the end of which i'd give them the bill for the remainder. That was 10% of the overall time&cost. In your world, sitting with the client to understand what they say they want vs what they really want is clutch.


I had more than 1 client come back to me after going with a cheaper route and ripping it all out due to unsatisfaction as they felt they could trust me more; could happen to you too.


----------



## robertmee

It is the cost, unfortunately, of doing business. I have my own Systems Integration/Automation company (Industrial environments not home) and I'm forever faced with customers using my detailed quotes/specifications to shop and get some local yokel who's programmed maybe a couple of PLCs in his life to do the work. I spent one trip in Alabama, working up an entire plant network retrofit so that all their controllers were talking on the same backbone, gave a complete parts list and task list as to what needed to happen and a very reasonable startup cost, only to have the Plant manager give it to his 'buddy' down the street whose trying to break into the biz. The engineer who contacted me in the first place was embarassed by the whole underhandedness, and I was very careful the next time around that facility came a calling. I expressed my concerns upfront and was rewarded with a nice contract.


----------



## IVB

You can't prevent folks from shopping, but there's no reason to give away your intellectual property unless you have to. You're going to get bitten from time to time, but if you limit your exposure on the upfront (like it sounds you did the 2nd time), then you can not only reduce pre-sales time, you could turn it into a sales tactic.


I.E., fully flesh out one subsystem in your example and say "that's what you need there, and a good example of what you'd get if you hire me. If you like that quality and if I've proven that i know my stuff, i'll give you the rest as part of the standard work product'. Give enough information on the rest to close the sale, but don't give away the milk for free.


----------



## Brian Corr

You guys must be doing something wrong. I make a six figure income on every job, even the ones I lose.




.000001 is six figures, right?


----------



## WRET AUDIO

Everytime this has happened, my boss and I have a discussion about charging a design/consulting fee up front on middle to large sized jobs. We'll try it out for a while, and then we'll have a new customer call us and ask for an estimate because they need something installed quickly. Then, the salesman in me kicks in and I run right out thinking I'm going to close a sale today, and usually do.

It's a double edge sword. If you ask for a fee up front, most of our customers would tell us,"I'm not going to pay you just to come out and see me." Well, they just don't realize that after I come out to see you, I have to sit down and design a system, check on backorders status (thanks China) and price changes to just give you an estimate. No one see's that part of the work. I'm not giving you a price on a new Toyota Corolla, I'm giving you a price on a custom designed system for YOU. That takes time and the design has to be perfect the first time.


----------



## shift_grind

the oddest thing is they insist on crestron, which is obvious very high end....then end up with IR based which is bottom end.....


there are plenty of mid line automation companies that probably would have fit the bill


know what they ended up with??


sorry to hear about it......low voltage is always the first thing to get cut, and the most undervalued.


----------



## roddymcg

You mean you can make money in this business??


----------



## jkv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You mean you can make money in this business??



well...that's the plan anyway


----------



## lcaillo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Everytime this has happened, my boss and I have a discussion about charging a design/consulting fee up front on middle to large sized jobs. We'll try it out for a while, and then we'll have a new customer call us and ask for an estimate because they need something installed quickly. Then, the salesman in me kicks in and I run right out thinking I'm going to close a sale today, and usually do.
> 
> It's a double edge sword. If you ask for a fee up front, most of our customers would tell us,"I'm not going to pay you just to come out and see me." Well, they just don't realize that after I come out to see you, I have to sit down and design a system, check on backorders status (thanks China) and price changes to just give you an estimate. No one see's that part of the work. I'm not giving you a price on a new Toyota Corolla, I'm giving you a price on a custom designed system for YOU. That takes time and the design has to be perfect the first time.



There you have your answer. Are you a designer or a car salesman? If you are a designer get some money up front. This is a brutal market where many people don't know where they fall and you have to educate them. Our guys charge for a basic site visit, then on large systems a more significant design fee. At some point you have to create the value for your services and make that essential to your client. The hardest part of this business is learning to stop undervaluing your services. Every time you give away a design you establish the value of your work...at zero.


----------



## jkv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lcaillo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There you have your answer. Are you a designer or a car salesman? If you are a designer get some money up front. This is a brutal market where many people don't know where they fall and you have to educate them. Our guys charge for a basic site visit, then on large systems a more significant design fee. At some point you have to create the value for your services and make that essential to your client. The hardest part of this business is learning to stop undervaluing your services. Every time you give away a design you establish the value of your work...at zero.



Very well put!


----------



## MikeB1973




> Quote:
> I have spent four full days on a home automation design with complete home lighting, A/V, and thermostat control control. I walked through the home with the customer, designed a system as per their input. The customer insisted on Crestron control which is a great and maybe the only way to do all of what they wanted. I put together an estimate which ended up at $150K. The customer tells me that is more than they wanted to spend. I redesigned it leaving all the functions they really needed and wanted. Re-submitted a new estimate that met their budget.
> 
> Friday I get a call telling me they went with a different contractor that had better prices! Come to find out the other contractor is putting in an IR based control system which I can't imagine could control all this well. So after all the time I spent on this, designing a system per the customer input, putting in the control system they insisted on, I have nothing to show for it. I might has well have been on vacation last week!



That's the cost of business, unfortunately. I spend 2-3 days quoting out $50K server upgrades in the IT industry, and sometimes I don't get the job. That's part of the process, however - you win some and you lose some.


The key is to convince the customer that you are better than the rest, and that you are the person that they want doing their job. If you are the right person, and they go elsewhere to a cheaper/terrible solution, they'll regret it in the end and maybe you'll get a call.


That's life - in any business, not just home theater and automation.



> Quote:
> I'm not giving you a price on a new Toyota Corolla, I'm giving you a price on a custom designed system for YOU. That takes time and the design has to be perfect the first time.



True, but I hope your profit is higher than that Corolla. That's the payoff. The guy trying to sell a Corolla may only spend a few hours with a customer, but the payoff isn't as high as yours. I had 4 companies come out and quote me a $4000 fence installation. I had to choose 1. Sucks that the others 'wasted' their time, but they didn't get the job because they didn't come off as professional as the company I went with, they weren't as price competitive, and they didn't seem as knowledgable.



> Quote:
> At that point, for jobs like this, I now require a "design fee". This amount of this fee depends on the size/type of the job and ranges from $500 upwards and can go as high as $10,000.



That might be nice for you, but you will certainly lose a lot of work - especially if you are still buidling your business.


I know I sure as heck wouldn't blindly pay someone to come out, present themselves, hear my needs, and give me a price.


----------



## lcaillo

One must qualify a client. You can spend time helping someone decide what their needs are before getting into a complete design. This is the difference between retail sales and design. Most designers do both to some degree. Once a client identifies a set of priorities and the designer/salesman establishes the value of his/her service, a design fee is approriate if client specific services are to be provided. The degree of design needed in a complete home automation system is just something that no one can do properly for free and stay in business.


----------



## CollinR

I am starting to charge design fees in a simular and somewhat related field.



This is especially true when designing via the internet.



You may lose some business by charging a design fee however you will lose 100% of you business if you supply an eBay shopping list to your customers for free. If you don't supply specific part#s the customer often finds this "creepy" and you lose business that way too.


Granted my systems are much smaller and much less detailed, as such the design fee is under $1500 even on pretty large projects (large retail store), for the residential customer $150-200 covers them. As was mentioned they get it back on the purchase of a system.


----------



## MikeB1973

Good point. I don't see the need to provide a complete and detailed design layout of a job with the quote. You might have to do the same work to quote an actual price, but at least the customer isn't using your design for free.


----------



## roddymcg

I am willing to give a basic scope of a project for free. If you want details it will cost me time to design a system and it will cost you money for you pay me for my time.


----------



## rgroves

Yea, I USED TO do side work on PC's for a number of years, and every time I lost a sale it was due to the fact that I either didn't get a "fee" up front on the large jobs, or gave the customer a detailed quote (part numbers, prices, etc..) at the time I gave them the quote rather then giving them a simple list and after they agree to use me, then give them the detailed quote.


CollinR worked with me for quite a while over on the HTPCnews forums trying to figure out what type of cameras to use on my house. He didn't tell me the part numbers or detailed specs of the cameras, but gave me just enough info to get me interested. While I wasn't ready to plunk down $1500 for some cameras, capture card, and cabling, I have not checked with anyone else because I feel Collin will treat me right.


Oh, Collin - I have not forgotten about you. I will probably still go with you, it's just been a little tight on my budget lately. A made a few "opps" when trying to run some of my wiring and had to fix those things before the wife will let me do ant more to the house. It just might take a litle longer for me to purchase, but I will let you know when the time comes.


----------



## jkv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am willing to give a basic scope of a project for free. If you want details it will cost me time to design a system and it will cost you money for you pay me for my time.



that seems to be a reasonable compromise.....


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jkv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> that seems to be a reasonable compromise.....




Good way to weed those who were never gonna use your services anyways...


It is amazing how many people don't think ones time and expertise and not worth a dollar.


----------



## Stash

Hey WRET AUDIO, sorry to hear about the lost sale. I'm in sales, different industry, but know where you are coming from. It sounds like you can use this experience to tweak your sales model a little. When I first stated in sales I found it difficult to ask the hard questions needs to gain understanding and get customer comittment. It seems you designed a system geared towards their wants and the "other guy" sold them on their basic needs. Now they may very well have been sold a bill of goods, but it probably would have been helpful to ask the hard questions that can potentilly reduce your overall fee, like would they consider a far less expensive system that would meet 50% of their "needs" and so on. That way when you discuss all options and they tell you, yes I would consider an IR system with limited capability and a 20 grand price tag vs the crestron system I needed at 150K, at least you know where you stand. It's tough to tell a customer about the system they can get for much less when you want to sell them the right solution, but if you don't chances are someone else will. Best of luck in the future. You can rest easy knowing that your lost customer got what he paid for.


----------



## Gurkha




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lcaillo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One must qualify a client. You can spend time helping someone decide what their needs are before getting into a complete design. This is the difference between retail sales and design. Most designers do both to some degree. Once a client identifies a set of priorities and the designer/salesman establishes the value of his/her service, a design fee is approriate if client specific services are to be provided. The degree of design needed in a complete home automation system is just something that no one can do properly for free and stay in business.



Even that doesn't always work.


I do Lutron HomeWorks and Shading, along with some other stuff. My Crestron partners land a client and sell them 80k of crestron. The wife is extremly interested and knowledgeable in shades. We meet several times over the course of the last few weeks, going over options pricing things out. Our 2nd to last meeting we agree to go thru the job on our next sit down room by room, pick and choose whats most important and move forward. We have that meeting and pare a 75k total lighting control solution down to a simple but prewired for all 24k. Two days later i get a phone call and they have decided to not do anything, no reason, no call back...The worst part is my instincts screamed at me during our initial meet, but i said to myself, they spen 80k on Crestron, there's gotta be something there...


----------



## WRET AUDIO

One aspect of sales and design that drives me nuts is after you have talked to the customer and found out what the want and need, then the "other guy" tells the customer, "I can do all that" with cheap crap that isn't really going to work.


Now here is the issue. All the customer knows is that I said it would cost this much, and the other guy said it will cost that much. It is very hard for me to go to the customer and tell them why my system is better or why the "other guy's" system isn't going to work. The customer doesn't know me any better than the "other guy" so why should they take my word over their"s.


Any customer that knows anything about the tech side of things is always easier to sell to and I've always done better with those customers because they know enough to understand the difference in what I'm selling. The challenge is that most HA customers understand this stuff and more importantly don't want to. That's what they hire us for!


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now here is the issue. All the customer knows is that I said it would cost this much, and the other guy said it will cost that much. It is very hard for me to go to the customer and tell them why my system is better or why the "other guy's" system isn't going to work. The customer doesn't know me any better than the "other guy" so why should they take my word over their"s.
> 
> 
> Any customer that knows anything about the tech side of things is always easier to sell to and I've always done better with those customers because they know enough to understand the difference in what I'm selling. The challenge is that most HA customers *don't* understand this stuff and more importantly don't want to. That's what they hire us for!



I don't know if this will work for the custom HA install industry, but when I was in technology consulting specializing in this one particular package that should require 6-9 months to install, I was constantly running into folks that said they could do it in 3. They weren't any better, they just did less rqmts & design & testing than I did, so the resultant system was more of a "plain vanilla/cookie cutter" and didn't really achieve the goals.


My response was to not change price at all, and I would regularly be 2-3x the price of the other companys bidding. Rather than budge on price, I developed 2-3 stock slides that I would put in each proposal with "Questions you should be asking us but haven't yet". I'd modify that slightly per client, but when delivering the pitch I would verbally say "Now this is an example of the thought leadership you get with our company. Would you rather spend some money very quickly and not get what you want, or spend a little more and get someone that meets your objectives."


I didn't win 100% of the bids, but my theory was that winning 100% meant that I had priced myself too low and was undervaluing the solution.


Not sure if this is relevant to you or not, but it certainly worked in package implementation/tech consulting where folks also didn't understand what I was doing.


----------



## lcaillo

I think it is completely relevant. The whole problem is establishing and maintaining the value of your services in the mind of your client. You have to be able to sell manure in a barnyard in this business...and it is not that hard if you believe your manure is better than what the client is standing in, and the value of having you shovel it is made clear.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lcaillo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think it is completely relevant. The whole problem is establishing and maintaining the value of your services in the mind of your client. You have to be able to sell manure in a barnyard in this business...and it is not that hard if you believe your manure is better than what the client is standing in, and the value of having you shovel it is made clear.



So true...


We just won a job that several others were competing on. Our bid was much higher that the client's budget, and we were by far the highest bid. But we 100% believed in our service and the product we brought to the table.


----------



## Bannon05

First, I am in no way trying to flame anyone and in fact agree with the original poster's points. However, my story is from the point of view as a customer. I went with a C4 dealer (didn't shop AMX or Creston due to the cost) based on what he said the system could do and his demonstration of several C4 screens on his test setup.


My system is mainly comprised of McIntosh equipment consisting of a pre-amp, amp, music server and DVD player. I also have a universal high-def DVD player and a 1080p plasma monitor. My current C4 dealer has diligently worked on my setup though it is going on three weeks and there are still issues with controlling the McIntosh equipment. His technical contacts at Control 4 have not been able to solve the issues and of course, McIntosh will not give him the serial codes since he is not a McIntosh dealer. The direct IR inputs (Zone A and B) on the pre-amp have not performed consistently, and therefore he has had to put an emitter on the front of the unit, which is for control of Zone A only.


I purchased my McIntosh equipment from a dealer that I later discovered has become a C4 dealer and has access to the serial codes. They are in the process of writing the driver for McIntosh equipment for their store display.


So I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place. My current C4 dealer has been great to work with but I can't continue to have glitches in the system. The SAF (spousal acceptance factor) of the system is falling rapidly. His price for the programming in consideration of the time he has spent at our house is very fair; however, I need for the system to function as designed.


Bottom line as an installer or as a customer, what would you do?


----------



## smoothtlk

I am pretty suprised that your C4 dealer is running into issues getting the RS232 protocol from McIntosh. I regularily ask for same, and have not had any problem getting that information from other vendors. For the simple reason that you are posting that you have a problem that is centric because McIntosh is not making it easy for your McIntosh system to be of high value to you. Not in the best interest of McIntosh.


Most all companies I have spoken with understand this and are more than happy to help as long as they don't think they will be bombarded with support issues.


Is C4 (the company) involved? If the C4 dealer can't get it, maybe C4 can.


----------



## Bannon05

smoothtlk,


Yes, my C4 dealer has talked with his contacts at Control 4, and I have even called Control 4 to ask for assistance. Once again, I have only positive things to say about my C4 dealer's efforts but he his not getting support. Both he and I have contacted McIntosh regarding the serial codes and have been told that they are only available to McIntosh dealers.


----------



## sic0048

I would go back to the dealer that sold them to you and request the information. You don't even need to tell them why you want it. Then take the info to your current C4 integrator. Your original dealer should be able to request the information and I would expect them to provide you with this level of service since you bought all this equipment from them. They shouldn't care what you need it for, it will simply be a few pages of documentation that comes over e-mail or fax.


I'm not sure why McIntosh is being so closed about this information anyway. The only people it will benefit are McIntosh owners, and there certainly isn't any propriety secrets in their RS232 control codes. They have nothing to loose except some customers like yourself that need the information but can't get it. I'm not sure you will be as willing to look at McIntosh in the future if this is the type of service you get from them.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bannon05* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> smoothtlk,
> 
> 
> Yes, my C4 dealer has talked with his contacts at Control 4, and I have even called Control 4 to ask for assistance. Once again, I have only positive things to say about my C4 dealer's efforts but he his not getting support. Both he and I have contacted McIntosh regarding the serial codes and have been told that they are only available to McIntosh dealers.



Bannon,


This is INSANE! McIntosh's conduct here is beyond repugnant, I cannot believe what I am hearing. I am not a McIntosh dealer but I do a lot of integration work and would be glad to see if I can get the codes to your C4 installer. Your McIntosh dealer should also be more than happy to provide the codes to you. Let me know if you would like and I'll check into it for you.


----------



## QQQ

Bannon,


I thought about this a little more, why don't you ask the dealer you bought the Mcintosh from for the codes? I understand your reluctance since they are C4 dealers, but you really shouldn't feel reluctant, they should be more than happy to give them to you and if anything it should tell you whether they value you as a customer. If you still run up against a brick wall let me know and I will see if I can help.


BTW, if McIntosh is really behaving exactly as you are reporting here, this is very bizarre. Most manufacturers put RS-232 codes on their equipment so they can be controlled by systems such as C4, AMX and Crestron. Sometimes it takes a little digging getting to the tech guy at the company that has them, but I can't remember any occasion in recent times where someone has said "we will only give them to a dealer". Totally bizarre.


p.s. Most manufacturers now even post them openly on their websites. Kaleidescape, Denon, Meridian you name it. Go to the website and they are right there.


----------



## Bannon05

Thank you all for the suggestions, and I'll try contacting my equipment dealer and McIntosh again. However, when I spoke with the installer from the dealer he gave me the impression that I could not obtain that information. Thanks again.


Bannon05


----------



## Bannon05

Contacted the main technical support person at McIntosh and he sent me the serial codes (they are the ones used for Crestron modules). Hope they work. Once again thanks for the feedback and offers of assistance.


Bannon05


----------



## QQQ

Yes, those should work for you, in fact I had looked at them as I posted, it's just that I'd have had to pull them all out of a Crestron module to give them to you, which is why I figured I'd let you try the normal route first. Good luck!


----------



## sic0048




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bannon05* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Contacted the main technical support person at McIntosh and he sent me the serial codes (they are the ones used for Crestron modules). Hope they work. Once again thanks for the feedback and offers of assistance.
> 
> 
> Bannon05



Great. That is the protocol you want. It doesn't matter that you are using C4 instead of Crestron, the language that your McIntosh equipment will see is the same. C4 will just take that data and create a driver so their equipment will learn to speak the McIntosh language (to over simplify the process).


----------



## Bannon05

QQQ and sic0048,


Good to hear that they will work. Thank you.


----------



## faterikcartman

As a lawyer, I'm very sympathetic to the concept of wanting to be paid for your time.


As a customer, I've found it is very tough to get a ballpark feel for pricing.


Someone always wants to come over and look at the situation and meet with me. Why? They say to give me accurate information. I say to get me comfortable with them and feeling obligated for the time they've spent with me, i.e., they want the opportunity to sell me.


The problem is, if the end result is going to be $150,000.00 to turn the lights off and on you can tell me how it is great to have the A/C temperature control in the same place but I'll tell you right now my wife is going to tell me you're out of your mind and I'm even crazier for listening to you.


Please understand that I'm not saying you would be ripping me off, that the stuff won't work, or that it wouldn't really impress me and my friends.


What I'm saying is that my wife will never get her head wrapped around the concept of paying the cost of a new Porsche GT3 AND a new Suburban just to make it easier to control some electronic devices. She would rather get up and walk to the switch and flip it.


But we do make about $500,000 a year so we do have money to spend. So if you can give her an automated home thrill for $20,000 she can probably wrap her mind around that. But if it is going to be a half-arsed system she would probably pass on that too.


Now how do we, as customers, get to the point to know it would cost $150,000 to have the balls out system and what that system could do?


How do we get to the point of understanding what a $20,000 system will do -- or won't do?


Frankly, if you're willing to be honest, I think maybe one of you would be willing to get me into the ballpark over the phone. I mean think about it -- I wouldn't know if it would cost me $2,500 or $1,000,000 for a Crestron system. In fact, Crestron goes out of its way to make it hard for DIY folks to buy and use their systems.


Now I'm not saying I would want to do it myself, I'm saying most customers would have zero to little idea to even approximate what they are in for financially.


So we have to endure you guys coming out to the house. You want to know what I want before you tell me how much it will cost. I want to know what I can have so you spend time explaining what can be done. I tell you it sounds fantastic and say I want that. You tell me you'll contact me in three days with an estimate. You spend hours feverishly working on it because you've seen my $1,000,000+ home and figure this will be a good job.


You call me up and tell me it is going to be $150,000, I tell you there is no freaking way, and then we're on the internet talking about how I wasted your time. Of course, since I bill $300.00 an hour for my time I'm also pretty pissed at YOU for wasting MY time.


What a pickle huh?


Now I realize the situation where I ask for a detailed spec sheet and then shop it elsewhere is different, but I think some of the situations where some of you may think that is happening is not really happening, or is only happening because they are looking for a solution that is more in line with their stomach for spending.


And once you tell them it is going to cost $150,000 and they choke, how can you go back and tell them you can work something out for $20,000 -- they're just going to think "what a jerk, why didn't he tell me that from the begininning instead of squeezing another $130,000 out of me?"


My suggestion, perhaps worth only what you're paying for it, is to develope an ability to give people a rough ballpark estimate of what a system might cost. Rather than work up each person's individual request only to be burned, spend a few weekends developing a quick worksheet for three tiers of systems and a way to average out prices depending on rooms, size of the house, etc.


Then develope a dialogue where you can explain quickly what the customer can expect from each system tier and approximately how much it might cost. Obviously you can develope a checklist you can run down even over the phone regarding what they are looking for and what sort of budget is comfortable to them.


There's no need to hide the ball here either. Just explain that developing a detailed plan is a time-consuming exacting process and in order to avoid wasting the customer's valuable time, as well as you're own, you would like to give the customer an idea of what they might expect and what it might cost.


Once a customer is comfortable with anything from a "I don't want to compromise" $150,000 budget, or an "I'm willing to make some accomodation" $20,000, you can set up a meeting and negotiate a detailed plan.


I think you would weed out a lot of people this way -- people who may not intentionally want to waste your time.


I pretty much never experience this, however. It's always "I'll need to come over and blah blah blah". I insist I just want to get an idea of what something might cost to see if I'm really a serious buyer and damned if anyone will tell me anything.


Left guessing that it could be half a million bucks, frankly, the hassle is just not worth my time.


I would find the approach described above very respectful of the value of my time, and I certainly would feel confident with an installer that values their time as well.


----------



## QQQ

faterikcartman,


I want to thank you for an excellent post. It should be required reading for all of us CI's about how a customer feels. I realize I often feel the same way when I am shopping for something and getting _useful_ pricing information is like pulling teeth. Or better yet, I just want to look at something without taking up a lot of someones time because I don't know if I am interested yet and I respect there time but they want to insist on some full fledged demo.


Anyhow, your post has made me realize some areas where I can improve some of our processes. Thanks.


----------



## lcaillo

Any saleman/designer who insisted on doing a site survey before coming to an understanding with the client regarding the value of such a system is simply not qualifying the customer. To not have an idea whether the client is interested in a $20K system or a $150K system, and some understanding of his/her priorities in the first few minutes of discussion is simply not doing ones job. Perhaps I lack a bit of sensitivity to designers, but I see a lot who just don't get it. The skills of sales and customer relations often just don't get well developed. You have to listen to be able to sell.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lcaillo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any saleman/designer who insisted on doing a site survey before coming to an understanding with the client regarding the value of such a system is is simply not qualifying the customer.



Of course that is true to a great extent, but it is so much more than that and I think faterikcartman's post delved more into the process and what takes place. There is for example, a very big difference between qualifying a caller who might be asking about a $1000 widget, and a caller asking about a system that has a huge range from say $10,000 to $100,000 and you've qualified the person enough to realize they could probably afford either end of the spectrum. Now the challenge is figuring out what they really want/need and often they don't know themselves.


Let me give an example from my side of the aisle as faterikcartman did from his. In the most extreme cases I've had Client's who started out asking about something that was a few thousand dollars who ended up spending a couple hundred thousands. I kid you not. So it makes good sense to meet with a person and show them what is possible. And you probably don't want to go to far into pricing discussions prior to meeting them and showing them what is possible and qualifying what they want/need. That's NOT to say you should not give them some pricing, that goes without saying. The very first thing I do in any conversation is qualify whether the person has a clue what the price range is etc. Meeting with someone who is expecting a $1000 price tag intending to show them something with a $25,000 price tag is just stupid. On the other hand moving beyond the basics of price without meeting is stupid too, because if a person the person has been qualified to an intitial point, you want to complete the rest of the qualification in person.


That I think ties into what faterikcartman said, because I think it's important to provide a person with the amount of information they want/need prior to that to make them comfortable. But sometimes that doesn't happen. So there is a balance that needs to be achieved and as a designer you need to make sure you are providing a person with enough information to make them comfortable. I always try to, but his post made me think of a few ways we might improve and/or make that process easier for the Client.


----------



## VetteRacer

faterikcartman, great post!

I feel the same way with calling about things I have NO idea about. When pricing getting our backyard done I had a hard time getting rough ideas from people without them wanting to setup an appointment to come map it out and give an estimate. I couldn't get them to tell me if it would be ~$1000 or ~$5000 to concrete & rock. I even gave them a rough idea of square footage wanted of each...


QQQ, one thing I would like to setup if I get into the industry is samples from projects done. Break it down by size of home and extent of system. Basic system for 1400 sqft home with 12 switches, HVAC control, and 2 touch panels... Then same basic size project with motorized window coverings, irregation, HVAC, 20 switches, security, etc etc... Give the lower and higher end of the spectrum. Then do same for a 4500 sqft home or whatever...

That information in a brochure or on website could weed out alot of wasted time from people that dont know what to expect to pay.


Matt


----------



## Greg C

The problem with giving a range with most customers is that they only remember the lower number. Say you tell them it will run between $25 & $35 K for the system. Whenyou come back with a $ 34, 675.26 price, they think you are ripping them off, since you said about $ 25K.


----------



## VetteRacer

Greg, thats why you give them a bit more detail... tell them for a basic lighting system with X switches and 2 remotes is $25k. And if they want the HVAC and irregation, etc it could be $35k+


A Lexus can cost you $30k-105k. Explain some of the differences and people will have a better idea...


I think giving enough info to be able to differentiate different stages available is needed, but not enough info to be locked into that price, or let them start pricing their own stuff..


My 2 cents..

Matt


----------



## Dean Roddey

As I've tried to increase my woeful understanding of business, I've come across the concepts of customer marketing vs. product marketing. In the former, you ask the customer what he wants and then provide it. In the latter, you create solutions and then find customers for it. It seems like the automation world really needs to be a product marketed world, because the customer generally doesn't know what they want, or they might know that they want X, but not realize that Y and Z could come along for the ride for a fairly incremental increase in system price, or (as QQQ pointed out), they might get a hot and bothered when they find out that there's a whole alphabet soup of other things it could do and go hog wild.


----------



## Mattman

I think that one of the frustrating things for many of our clients is that many of the people in our industry, while technically savvy, don't have great sales or communication ability. It only makes sense to give clients some examples of systems that we have done with pricing of those completed projects. This needs to happen AFTER an assessment of what the client knows about our industry and the options available so that we can assure that everyone is speaking a common language.


It is silly for an integrator to work up a specific design for a potential client without at least some basic agreement by both sides on a budget range. That's a waste of everyone's time.


Another thing to consider about these price tags that people throw around (like $150k) is that this includes a lot of equipment that is not part of the control system. The price tag of these systems can vary widely based upon the size, quantity and quality of televisions and speakers.


Also, a Crestron or AMX system's pricetag can vary based upon which of the dozens of interface choices you decide to use. Lower tier control or distribution systems tend to have a much more limited choice of interfaces while the big boys have a variety of keypads and touchpanels that range in size from 3.6" to 17". Even a Crestron or AMX system can be "economically engineered" to accomodate lower budgets.


----------



## originalprime

I have enjoyed reading this thread and learning about the various viewpoints of custom installers. I wanted to chime in as a consumer who definitely price shops my systems because I have been badly burned by several installers, just as y'all have been burned by consumers.


My first Crestron installer required a consultation fee. No big deal. The consultation went well. He quoted me for the work that I wanted, and told me that he required 40% up front. No big deal, except for the fact that this was a HUGE job...


I paid my fees, had part of my equipment delivered, and then the installer fell off the face of the Earth. I'm out $18,000 - with _some_ of my hardware to show for it. No programming, no wire pulls, no nothing else.


A similar instance happened on my second try. After being burned twice, I was tempted to dump my gear on eBay and walk away... Then I tallied up how much money I've already sunken (lost) into this automation system, and figured it'd be worth another seven grand to finish the project, versus the $24,000 I've already "invested".


Just my two cents, this street goes both ways. I'm on programmer / installer number 3. As a consumer, I shouldn't have to go through this much trouble to find a reasonable certified Crestron installer. It makes me wonder why they even have a certification program if these sleaze bags are the ones representing them.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *originalprime* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have enjoyed reading this thread and learning about the various viewpoints of custom installers. I wanted to chime in as a consumer who definitely price shops my systems because I have been badly burned by several installers, just as y'all have been burned by consumers.
> 
> 
> My first Crestron installer required a consultation fee. No big deal. The consultation went well. He quoted me for the work that I wanted, and told me that he required 40% up front. No big deal, except for the fact that this was a HUGE job...
> 
> 
> I paid my fees, had part of my equipment delivered, and then the installer fell off the face of the Earth. I'm out $18,000 - with _some_ of my hardware to show for it. No programming, no wire pulls, no nothing else.
> 
> 
> A similar instance happened on my second try. After being burned twice, I was tempted to dump my gear on eBay and walk away... Then I tallied up how much money I've already sunken (lost) into this automation system, and figured it'd be worth another seven grand to finish the project, versus the $24,000 I've already "invested".
> 
> 
> Just my two cents, this street goes both ways. I'm on programmer / installer number 3. As a consumer, I shouldn't have to go through this much trouble to find a reasonable certified Crestron installer. It makes me wonder why they even have a certification program if these sleaze bags are the ones representing them.



Sorry to hear about your plight, we are dealing with a client who has went through something similiar, but on a smaller scale than you.


Have you contacted Crestron directly to share your experience??


It is so important to interview your installer and check references, this does not always guarantee anything. I hate seeing something like this happen to people, it puts a huge scar on our industry.


----------



## the rick

This is a two way street. I've found that being totally honest about what it costs up front with my clients has worked the best. Usually within about 20-30 minutes, I can give them a figure of what the system could cost within about 15-20% of reality. Yes, its a swing but so are the choices. AMX has 1000$ remotes and 10000$ remotes...like someone else said, look at what a car company ranges etc.

I don't think the client or the salesperson wants to waste days making detailed quotes just to be 3-4x the budget that was anticipated. When I tell someone "it will be around 35k +- 20%" one of two things happens: They usually finally be honest and give an idea of what they actually want to spend or they say OK, sounds about right. This tends to save everyone a bunch of time IMO


----------



## mnn1265

I'm a consumer not much unlike faterikcartman and I have to say that he made a great post - I think it is right on.


I'm a very similar type client just finishing my new home construction (move in end of August hopefully). To make a long story short I had my builders electrician do the HAI system for home automation (mostly because that's what they recommended) and then went with one of my builders subs for the in home audio portion of the system. The guy that was going to do my in home audio automation lost interest as soon as he found out I wasn't going to buy the fancy system he was hawking - it gave me all kinds of nice functions I didn't want or need. Since he has a working relationship with my builder he didn't just say goodbye but instead did the home wiring and just recommended the bare bones "basic" system. I guess he figured if he wasn't selling the high-end it wasn't worth doing more than the minimum effort to keep his place on my builder's gravy train. In the end he just basically ended up ignoring my requests for plans and meetings.


I decided to do no more business with him. I contacted several CI's (mostly in the audio realm) in my area and have talked and met with several. The first guy whipped over to my house and took a look at my house and the existing wiring. He asked some basic questions but never took the time to find out what I wanted the system to do. What I think he did was take a look at my house and assumed I would want or could afford xyz setup. I asked him if we could sit down and he could explain what his products could do and for what price point. He passed on that and said he'd "work up a plan." Eventually he called back and said he didn't finish the plan but wanted me to come by the shop; and then he added that he could get me into his "introductory package" for $40k. I told him to pound sand.


What I wish more of you in the HA business would understand is that even computer/electronics savvy consumers like myself (network and Microsoft SMS administrator and HT enthusiast) most likely know very little about the capabilities and prices of the HA products. In fact, after meeting with 4 different HA CI's I still don't! That's just ridiculous. It wouldn't take that much time or effort to simply educate me on what can be done, basically how it's done, and how much these capabilities will cost me. Hell, not one of them even gave me a diagram, outline, picture, catalog, or even basic explanation. And no, I never once saw a detailed plan much less a basic one.


The good news is I've found a CI that I'm becoming comfortable with and it's clear he wants to develop a long term relationship with me rather than giving me a wham-bam-thank you Mam can I have the fat check please deal. The challenge is that he's only familiar with some of the HA systems out there and perhaps not the specific products that would work best for me.


So, in summation if you CI's would take a weekend and put together a simple presentation for what it is you can do and how you plan to do it I think things would go easier for everyone. Somewhere in there of course you should make it clear what kinds of costs are associated with the various capabilities. I'm not looking to price shop your parts list or your plan because frankly the likelyhood of me finding another CI that uses the same stuff is slim - besides I have no way of even knowing if your plan is a good one or not.


After reading your bad experiences with customers I can sympathize with your plight but you should be aware that there are CI's out there not doing a very good job as well.


----------



## WRET AUDIO

I understand your issues with the CI's you've met. The struggle I have is that I would love to sit down with new customers and educate them on on the options and prices. Let them then decide what all they need or want, design a system for them, let them review it, make revisions, review it, sign off on it and lets go to work.

In my world, 50% of my customers are going to take my prices and shop them at Worst Buy and Circuit $hitty and ask me why does my TV cost more than theirs. Then they'll tell me that the builder's electrician's estimate was much less than mine. I then have to scale it back or discount it to make any type of deal. So now if I sell it at all, my margins are gone and I have not even been paid for the days I spent with them trying to give them what they asked me for!

I can understand a why a CI might try to limit the time up front, because they aren't getting paid for that. If a job is large enough or if the customer does not mind paying for the design time, then most would be happy to sit down with you and work all this out till you are satisfied, but at this point, they just can't afford to right now.

What I would like you to think about is what your budget is and how much money a CI could make "if" they were lucky enough to get your business. If the average CI spent all this time up front on this gamble, they just might work there way out of business. Then we can start another post here about how great this certain CI was for all their up front time, but they aren't in business anymore.

I say all this, but if a customers wants to pay fair money for all the servicec there want, I'll work with them as best I know how!


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> 50% of my customers are going to take my prices and shop them at Worst Buy and Circuit $hitty and ask me why does my TV cost more than theirs.



I would like to know why your TV costs more then BB's TV if its the same model. Heck BB's prices are really high compared to online, you are lucky your customers are not internet savvy










Honestly, No item should ever have an artificial markup, Products anyone sells should be inline with general retail prices out there and you wont be wasting time.


Wouldnt it be better for CI to simply put down his time cost in installing, programming and customizing. Leaving all the prices to all the products lower. Im a software developer and I sell any hardware or 3rd party software at cost, all the money I make is what I charge per hour for the work I put into it.


----------



## WRET AUDIO

My price includes shipping, set-up, delivery, and one year free replacment. This means if anything at all goes wrong with the TV for one year, all you have to do is call and we will replace it and re-install it for free.

Call up your internet store and ask them to match that!


----------



## penngray

Sorry I added to my post.....


That price should be separate....


Give the customer the TV price then have a new line item for service cost. I understand what you are giving as a service but I think its a bad business practice to hide that in one line of pricing.


You probably would spend less time debating these small things with the customer and heck the guy can just veto that service costs. The you dont need to worry about the TV.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> This means if anything at all goes wrong with the TV for one year, all you have to do is call and we will replace it and re-install it for free.
> 
> Call up your internet store and ask them to match that!



Sorry, several online stores match or exceed that service, 3 years for $xxx and I have had a replacement TV from an online purchase. The difference is that its a separate line item and we know what we are getting. Even Best Buy comes out an fixes or replaces.


Simple rule for me in my business, I do not hide any costs whatsoever. Like you I hate when my customer says, "Hey I can buy that product from here for $$$". I make sure my product price is as low as possible and then charge separately for all the service. A CI business is no difference (imo), your time is money so bill for it and show it.


----------



## Sokoloff

WRET, I don't think the customers *that you want* object to paying a fair price for the services they want.


They do need to know however, what services they want, and what that fair price is, so they can make that decision with their banker. The sooner and more transparently you can provide that information, the more efficiently you can sell to the customers you want and have the customers you don't want weed themselves out for you. Some of the people in the latter group will be back in 5, 10 years to give you another shot when their finances catch up to their aspirations.


If both sides accept that some customers are undesirable, and some CIs are undesirable, the challenge for the CIs is how to best filter/qualify their potential customers without becoming placed in the "undesirable" bucket.


I'm sure lots of guys in my field (computer jockey) have had the experience of walking into a high-end store of any sort and getting the brush off because we're in khaki shorts and a T-shirt. On the flip-side, I was helping a single female friend feel comfortable buying a brand-new Mercedes. I'd given her the basic rundown of models/prices from mbusa.com and the salesman was very friendly and helpful even though we'd just shown up in shorts/Ts from a softball game. He sold her a $75K car for $74.5K in about 20 minutes, 15 of which was the test drive. What was the key element in such a major purchase for her being wrapped up so smoothly? That she had pre-sales pricing information that was clear, that showed her the differences between the $35K MB, the $75K, and the $105K, she knew what she wanted and that the dealer had it, and all the sales guy had to do after that was "not be a jerk". If all MB's site said was "call for pricing", she'd be driving a BMW or Lexus right now.


Admittedly, we all are around cars regularly, so we have more natural education than a customer of home automation would. If you take that as a given, then the challenge is to educate on the basics of what those systems can do, and then give approximate pricing, even if it's slightly inflated. Some of "you guys" are so close to being successful; the best information I can find (meaning most likely to move the right customers to close a sale) is of the form "Wouldn't it be great if you could X, Y, and Z?" "Every morning, you wake to slowly increasing nature sounds as your bedroom lights fade up. As you enter the bath, the morning news is automatically tuned, etc, etc." Customers can wrap their minds around that and fantasize about how great that would be and *right then* is the time to give them a "how many zeroes" idea of pricing. If you don't, many of the right customers will politely give you back the brochure and leave, assuming it must be one or two zeroes too many. Every minute that passes from the time that fantasy starts, their willingness to buy decreases as their fear of "too expensive" increases.


You are selling a professional service, not a used car or a commodity TV. If you were a plastic surgeon or even a personal trainer, would your price lists be such state secrets? Some customers will shop just on price. You probably don't want them. Others will shop just on service. You might not want them either, as they can be picky pains in the ass, though lucrative if you can finally get them pinned down to a job. Assuming you are a good CI, you *want* the customer who is shopping on service and price. IMO, any good CI in San Diego who isn't 110% booked should have already made contact with faterikcartman. No, he's not going to open up his bank account and tell you to help yourself to whatever you need, but he's an ideal customer and there's a TON more like him.


Think like a plastic surgeon, not a used car dealer. Close 20 deals with the faterikcartmans of the world, don't wait for the one montyburns to come along.


----------



## robertmee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldnt it be better for CI to simply put down his time cost in installing, programming and customizing. Leaving all the prices to all the products lower. Im a software developer and I sell any hardware or 3rd party software at cost, all the money I make is what I charge per hour for the work I put into it.



In this instance I have to side with the CI's....There is no such thing as selling anything at cost. I own my own automation company for manufacturing, and I would quickly go out of business if I sold everything at cost, including my time. When I travel, I bill at cost + 10% to cover incidentals, overhead, etc. I can't add a line item for extra daycare when I'm travelling or roaming cellphone charges. I have to recoup these costs in other ways. Same for a CI selling a TV. He has to cover shipping, inventory/storage costs, lugging the thing to a client's home (Ask Best Buy to deliver for free).


I think it is a bit too much to ask a CI to itemize expenditures like you suggest. Once you start giving the customer a list like that, price shopping becomes even worse. The potential customer will just say, well, since your price for the TV is x and your price for service is y, I'll buy the TV on ebay and purchase your service plan. That's an extreme example, but I've found the more detail you provide, the more some customer's will start picking it apart in order to save pennies.


----------



## aegisx

To me, service and support are worth paying more.


If it is an expensive project (not DIY) I don't really have a problem spending 20% more (just an example number) for the support and service. Of course the business I am dealing with has to display that that is what they offer. I like to know that i can call for help or questions. If something goes wrong I won't be screwed. More personal service is an excellent plus too, not like The big B&M stores.


Not all customers care about that, but like me, I'm sure some of the ones who do are repeat buyers and spread the word.


Just some thoughts...


----------



## WRET AUDIO

Even if a customers wants a lower price and says they don't want the warranty/service plan of any kind, what happens in 3 months when their 50" plasma dies? They're going to call us and expect a replacement anyway! An internet store can just ignore your call, but our customers all live in the same town. If we do not warranty our gear, then the customers tell all their friend,"Don't buy anything from them, their don't care about their customers!"

The customers will expect good service and will forget the details of any warranty 3-6 months after the purchase, therfore I have to offer this service on evey sell!


----------



## Sokoloff




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aegisx* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To me, service and support are worth paying more.
> 
> 
> If it is an expensive project (not DIY) I don't really have a problem spending 20% more (just an example number) for the support and service.



Hell, when I do a DIY job, I _already_ spend 25-50% more for service and support, and tools...


----------



## Sokoloff

If they don't want the warranty/service, then don't sell them the gear either. I agree that you shouldn't break out a separate line item for service on each piece of gear but rather cost-plus it as robertmee indicated with travel.


That way, they either buy it from you, whole-hog, or from Ebay, 6th Ave, BB, CC wherever and it's very clear that you're no more responsible for it than you are if they got a flat tire.


I think part of the problem is a reluctance to charge for labor what your labor is worth and trying to "make up for it" in the gear. Don't make everything a la carte, but if your labor is worth $100 an hour and it takes 50 hours, put 50 hours at $100/hr. Don't try to shave it to 40 hours at $50 an hour and then think you have to cram $3K somewhere else on the invoice in other markups.


You're competing against internet vendors for some things and not other things. Let the customer see the unique value that you provide that the guys in Brooklyn grey-market sites don't, charge accordingly and let the customers sort it out.


----------



## aegisx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sokoloff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If they don't want the warranty/service, then don't sell them the gear either. I agree that you shouldn't break out a separate line item for service on each piece of gear but rather cost-plus it as robertmee indicated with travel.
> 
> 
> That way, they either buy it from you, whole-hog, or from Ebay, 6th Ave, BB, CC wherever and it's very clear that you're no more responsible for it than you are if they got a flat tire.
> 
> 
> I think part of the problem is a reluctance to charge for labor what your labor is worth and trying to "make up for it" in the gear. Don't make everything a la carte, but if your labor is worth $100 an hour and it takes 50 hours, put 50 hours at $100/hr. Don't try to shave it to 40 hours at $50 an hour and then think you have to cram $3K somewhere else on the invoice in other markups.
> 
> 
> You're competing against internet vendors for some things and not other things. Let the customer see the unique value that you provide that the guys in Brooklyn grey-market sites don't, charge accordingly and let the customers sort it out.




Exactly. I collect some arcade games and I generally buy from one place. They are more expensive than ebay and other places, but they have a mandatory warranty/service plan included. It also helps that on top of that, they are very friendly and responsive to questions via email or phone. For example, something breaks, they will gladly talk me through on the phone how to fix it or just send someone out, no hassle for me (very important







).


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> In this instance I have to side with the CI's....There is no such thing as selling anything at cost. I own my own automation company for manufacturing, and I would quickly go out of business if I sold everything at cost, including my time. When I travel, I bill at cost + 10% to cover incidentals, overhead, etc. I can't add a line item for extra daycare when I'm travelling or roaming cellphone charges. I have to recoup these costs in other ways. Same for a CI selling a TV. He has to cover shipping, inventory/storage costs, lugging the thing to a client's home (Ask Best Buy to deliver for free).
> 
> 
> I think it is a bit too much to ask a CI to itemize expenditures like you suggest. Once you start giving the customer a list like that, price shopping becomes even worse. The potential customer will just say, well, since your price for the TV is x and your price for service is y, I'll buy the TV on ebay and purchase your service plan. That's an extreme example, but I've found the more detail you provide, the more some customer's will start picking it apart in order to save pennies.




I agree that you cant sell everything at cost but I do believe that there is a difference in selling a TV that is a popular brand anywhere and custom install hardware/software. I do sell things at my cost since I charge by the hour to make things work. I buy the software, I charge the customer that exact same price but my time is where the profit is.


My point was really only about the TVs here though, I dont think they are custom at all and therefore costs for them should simply be inline with the same TVs purchased a local electronics store.



This has nothing to do with not making a profit it simply has to do with how things are listed. In the end all the costs and profits are in the bottom line. Its obviously important to show up front why your TV costs more then other places, seems like lots of time is saved debating it when its there in details.


Is it time consuming to show the details up front? Yeah, its a pain but its less time then debating and convincing people after the fact.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> That way, they either buy it from you, whole-hog, or from Ebay, 6th Ave, BB, CC wherever and it's very clear that you're no more responsible for it than you are if they got a flat tire.



I dont know if the CI even wants customers that shop around, DIY and buy off of Ebay those customers are going to be a big pain for the CI.


Of course the CI doesnt know his customer when he sits down for the first time so maybe a good question would be.....


"Do you price shop online or buy off of Ebay?"











If the answer is "Yes!" then thank them for their time and just dont bother


----------



## b.greenway




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I dont know if the CI even wants customers that shop around, DIY and buy off of Ebay those customers are going to be a big pain for the CI.



Anyone interested in buying equipment off ebay and installing it themselves was never my customer in the first place


----------



## Sokoloff




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *b.greenway* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone interested in buying equipment off ebay and installing it themselves was never my customer in the first place



Exactly! Which is why I can't understand the feeling that the CI/HA manufacturer price lists should be such a state secret? If you're competitive on parts (say within 15% of brick-and-mortar retailers) then it's a non-issue for your actual customers who are paying you for where you add value: in the expertise and labor.


----------



## b.greenway




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sokoloff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Exactly! Which is why I can't understand the feeling that the CI/HA manufacturer price lists should be such a state secret? If you're competitive on parts (say within 15% of brick-and-mortar retailers) then it's a non-issue for your actual customers who are paying you for where you add value: in the expertise and labor.



Oh, heh, well thats another matter altogether. But if you're really interested in seeing what I make, surely you wouldn't mind bringing along last years tax return so I can see what you make


----------



## Sokoloff

I'll tell you what I make W-2/1099 if you care. What I make on Schedule D and deduct on schedule A isn't your business, but I'm pretty sure you're getting the point (long before this thread) that most of your actual customers make $100+ an hour and they won't blanch at paying another professional $100 an hour for their expertise.


Most people who make enough to be your customers aren't stupid; they value their time and they won't object when you value your time. I think a lot of CIs just starting out worry that they can't can't charge enough in labor so they want everything to be voodoo and secret so they can make the bottom line number without "asking" for $100/hr.


You'll win some customers that way, but I'm a big believer in transparency and think you can win more if the process is more data-rich.


If you make me understand roughly what I'm getting and roughly what I'm paying for various components, I can make an informed choice as a customer, perhaps even before we ever sit down at a table to work on a spreadsheet. If it's all black magic, it's a harder sell and some of us won't even walk in the door. It's a really hard sell to a customer that you will never talk to.


----------



## b.greenway




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sokoloff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'll tell you what I make W-2/1099 if you care.



I don't, it was a silly retort to what I perceived as a silly proposition.


----------



## Dean Roddey

Did anyone see the story in CEPro magazine in this latest issue? I was saying like 4 years ago that IT type folks coming into the industry, accustomed to using commodity hardware and being comfortable with PCs and software, was going to change the dynamic, since they would tend towards a model where they make their money on services and software and not on hardware. CEPro seems to have finally caught up with my prophetic foresight


----------



## WRET AUDIO

As PC and IT gear makes its way into A/V...

...Lord help us!


Its hard enough to make rock solid systems with dedicated hardware. Put a PC or IT gear in the mix and who knows.

I recently worked on a huge PA system that used network switches to send audio to main loud speakers. I can't what to see how that ends up.


----------



## tleavit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For those out there that have posted recently about the "high" margins of home automation let me tell you what just happened to me again.
> 
> 
> I have spent four full days on a home automation design with complete home lighting, A/V, and thermostat control control. I walked through the home with the customer, designed a system as per their input. The customer insisted on Crestron control which is a great and maybe the only way to do all of what they wanted. I put together an estimate which ended up at $150K. The customer tells me that is more than they wanted to spend. I redesigned it leaving all the functions they really needed and wanted. Re-submitted a new estimate that met their budget.
> 
> Friday I get a call telling me they went with a different contractor that had better prices! Come to find out the other contractor is putting in an IR based control system which I can't imagine could control all this well. So after all the time I spent on this, designing a system per the customer input, putting in the control system they insisted on, I have nothing to show for it. I might has well have been on vacation last week!
> 
> 
> You gotta love this business!



I had a yard guy come out for an hour to quote up putting in some pavers in a 12' by 20'ish area with pavers and 5 yards of gravel. The quote came back at $5000. Of course we told him that we went with another contractor.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Its hard enough to make rock solid systems with dedicated hardware. Put a PC or IT gear in the mix and who knows. I recently worked on a huge PA system that used network switches to send audio to main loud speakers. I can't what to see how that ends up.



Our customers don't find this to be true. Folks who work with this type of equipment know how to set up highly stable systems that will run for years without problems. It's a matter of selecting good components, stripping out anything not required, and dedicating the controller box in the closet to automation and nothing else (though it's often used as a music streaming box as well, which is very light duty for a modern machine.)


----------



## IVB

And turning off the automatic updates. I'm still shocked at how many people leave that on, which of course will destabilize a system.


It's not like your crestron or AMX controllers will automatically upgrade to the latest firmware whenever it's released - don't be doing that crap with home automation PCs either.


----------



## nishan

I reformatted my hard drive and installed windows XP and then installed CQC. That's it, nothing else. That was 6 months ago, and I have NEVER had one crash or need to reboot (because of a problem). Of course Dean keeps releasing new upgrades so I periodically have to stop, upgrade and restart. Otherwise the system just runs, and has been up for months.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And turning off the automatic updates. I'm still shocked at how many people leave that on, which of course will destabilize a system.
> 
> 
> It's not like your crestron or AMX controllers will automatically upgrade to the latest firmware whenever it's released - don't be doing that crap with home automation PCs either.



yea, I am now wishing I turned those stupid updates off... CQC is still stable, but the SDM thingy for insteon has become very unstable, same with the BTV server...all in the last two weeks or so... I am only guessing that it is an update that caused this, as I don't use that PC for anything...


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sokoloff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You'll win some customers that way, but I'm a big believer in transparency and think you can win more if the process is more data-rich.



I agree with you on some points but I am curious what you define as "transparency". If someone makes profit on equipment sales does that mean it is not "transparent"? If I sell plasma A for $3000 and someone else sells it for $4000 is that "transparent" as long as you can easily compare the two? Is it only "transparent" if I sell it for the same? A little bit more? Is it OK if I sell it for $4000 as long as I am not "hiding" labor costs in that? But if I sell it for $4000 because I am hiding labor costs that is not transparent? I'm not being argumentative (or maybe I am), I'd like to know how you define it.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I My point was really only about the TVs here though, I dont think they are custom at all and therefore costs for them should simply be inline with the *same TVs* purchased a local electronics store..



But that is hard to compare sometimes. Most big box stores carry lower end models trying to hit price points, so the Pioneer Plasma you see at BB is not the same Pioneer plasma that a CI will provide you. It may look the same, but the CI version will have additional processing/adjustments or control ports that the big box retail version will not.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My point was really only about the TVs here though, I dont think they are custom at all and therefore costs for them should simply be inline with the same TVs purchased a local electronics store.



I am not a frivolous shopper by any means but I also frequently purchase products from company's WITHOUT expecting their price to be the same as "the local electronics store". At other times I do expect it. It all depends on what I am purchasing. I may very much prefer to do business with a smal local company that will give me great service and know that they may not buy in the same quantity that a large outfit does, but that when I need help they will actually have someone that will help me. A good case in point is our large format printer. I bet a paid $500 to $1000 more than what I could have purchased it online for. I am more than happy with that decision because when I have an issue with it I know I can call someone that cares about me as a customer and will be out licketly split. A problem with the xxx? No problem, we'll be right over and take care of it. The fact that I pay for the service call does NOT make me think I should have been able to buy from them for the same as buy.com, who would refer me to some local service outfit that would not know me from Adam and would take care of it in their own sweet time.


Your expectation that people should not need to make money on the product is based on the business model in your industry but some seem not to understand that the same model that works for one industry does not always work for another. Also, the model that so many PC people seem to love is a model that a lot of people including myself find somewhat loathsome - specifically the model of selling a product and saying "thank you very much I've got your money, now call this 800 number and talk to someone in India and give them your credit card when you need help". Granted, that is a worst case scenario but it is the logical extension of "transparent pricing" aka cutting EVERY extraneous cost out of the transaction and then charging people up the wazoo for "services". I don't necessarily find that "model" any more appealing.


None of this should be construed to mean that I am suggesting that one should always pay the highest price or not care about price. Far from it.


----------



## Sokoloff

Interesting questions, QQQ, but I don't think I claimed that people should not need to make money on product. In fact, I specifically suggested that a CI cost-plus his equipment on the first post on this page.


I do come from an engineering background and manage an IT department. We buy a great deal of equipment at vastly higher than the lowest (or even average) internet price we could find, because we get pretty good service from our preferred vendor.


But, that vendor still gives us a price list. We can buy widget XYZ, version 1.2 from them for $N,000. We might be able to find it 20 or 40% less somewhere else, but the "transparency" is that I have a price list; I know what they sell and how much it costs from them. If I look, I also know what it costs somewhere else, but I can tell my project teams "Here's what your proposed project's IT costs will be, +/- 20%" without making any phone calls or waiting on anyone else. Sure I may need a quote for customization, or I may need to call for freight quotes or availability, but their price list isn't a secret and I can make rough plans based on that. If I need labor above-and-beyond, it's on a quotation basis. If I need parts from them, I know the price. If I give them a big order, or it's near the end of their quarter, I may be able to negotiate a break on price. If I choose to get parts somewhere else, that's also an option. If they ever went to a model where "Hey, just call us every time you want a price on something", we'd be done with them within a month, good service notwithstanding.


When I bought my G70 almost 5 years ago, I bought from Terry after finding Curt didn't have the PJ I wanted. I paid $5700 for a PJ I could have gotten on Ebay for $3500 and still think I did the right thing, yet I checked online. Terry was unapologetic about his price, explained his inventory (3 to choose from at the time), told me what each PJ's condition and hours were and that he'd stand behind the sale if I needed him. From that, and his behavior on the CRT forum, he got $2200 "extra" for his trouble. In the last 4.5 years, I've sent him exactly one PM asking a question, which he replied to. I'm sure we're both happy about the deal. He spent under an hour on my deal over the lifetime of it. For all I know, he bought the PJ for $2000, but I don't care. Other folks on the CRT forum think I'm crazy for paying $2 more than I had to, let alone $2000.


I don't object to someone making a markup on equipment. What I object to is the secrecy. If a widget X costs the CI $X,000 and they sell it for $Y,000, I don't care what Y-X is, because that's none of my concern. I do think that Y should be transparent, though. How do I know if I can afford a GT3? Because Porsche publishes a price list, without breaking out how much it costs them to build one. How do I know I can't afford a McLaren F1? Same reason. Note that I'm not objecting to anyone's "right" to have a secret price list or anything else, just that it's not a behavior for which I see any competitive advantage.


If someone wants to mark up a commodity TV 20%, it won't turn me off from buying from them. But if I can't get a ballpark (right number of zeroes) price on some electronic project in an hour of web research, I'm not likely to even bother engaging you in what I perceive will a. likely be a waste of my time and/or b. will be a process where you attempt to determine exactly what my pain threshold is, so you can come in 1% under that.


Fleece me if you want, just fleece me with a web price list.


----------



## mnn1265

I agree Sokoloff. If I receive a price list from a CI and it includes a consumer grade display device (TV) that I can Google and get a price in 10 seconds... I will. That doesn't mean I ever intend to actually go buy it myself... If I see a huge markup I'm going to err on the side of caution and assume I'm bing fleeced. If on the other hand the TV is priced a small percentage above Internet pricing AND there is a design, installation, consulting or other fully disclosed fee I'll not be alarmed.


It's a bad idea to mark up electronics because they are basically commodities today. Can you imagine if a home builder came back with a proposal to build a home with a huge markup on lumber and nails? You'd probably run for the hills. Customers are typically looking for cues to help them determine if you're a reputable CI or if you're a just itching to reach into thier wallet - don't give them the wrong idea by hiding your profits in mark-ups on the electronics - or as Sokoloff suggested don't hide them at all.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sokoloff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Interesting questions, QQQ, but I don't think I claimed that people should not need to make money on product. In fact, I specifically suggested that a CI cost-plus his equipment on the first post on this page.
> 
> 
> I do come from an engineering background and manage an IT department. We buy a great deal of equipment at vastly higher than the lowest (or even average) internet price we could find, because we get pretty good service from our preferred vendor.
> 
> 
> But, that vendor still gives us a price list. We can buy widget XYZ, version 1.2 from them for $N,000. We might be able to find it 20 or 40% less somewhere else, but the "transparency" is that I have a price list; I know what they sell and how much it costs from them. If I look, I also know what it costs somewhere else, but I can tell my project teams "Here's what your proposed project's IT costs will be, +/- 20%" without making any phone calls or waiting on anyone else. Sure I may need a quote for customization, or I may need to call for freight quotes or availability, but their price list isn't a secret and I can make rough plans based on that. If I need labor above-and-beyond, it's on a quotation basis. If I need parts from them, I know the price. If I give them a big order, or it's near the end of their quarter, I may be able to negotiate a break on price. If I choose to get parts somewhere else, that's also an option. If they ever went to a model where "Hey, just call us every time you want a price on something", we'd be done with them within a month, good service notwithstanding.
> 
> 
> When I bought my G70 almost 5 years ago, I bought from Terry after finding Curt didn't have the PJ I wanted. I paid $5700 for a PJ I could have gotten on Ebay for $3500 and still think I did the right thing, yet I checked online. Terry was unapologetic about his price, explained his inventory (3 to choose from at the time), told me what each PJ's condition and hours were and that he'd stand behind the sale if I needed him. From that, and his behavior on the CRT forum, he got $2200 "extra" for his trouble. In the last 4.5 years, I've sent him exactly one PM asking a question, which he replied to. I'm sure we're both happy about the deal. He spent under an hour on my deal over the lifetime of it. For all I know, he bought the PJ for $2000, but I don't care. Other folks on the CRT forum think I'm crazy for paying $2 more than I had to, let alone $2000.
> 
> 
> I don't object to someone making a markup on equipment. What I object to is the secrecy. If a widget X costs the CI $X,000 and they sell it for $Y,000, I don't care what Y-X is, because that's none of my concern. I do think that Y should be transparent, though. How do I know if I can afford a GT3? Because Porsche publishes a price list, without breaking out how much it costs them to build one. How do I know I can't afford a McLaren F1? Same reason. Note that I'm not objecting to anyone's "right" to have a secret price list or anything else, just that it's not a behavior for which I see any competitive advantage.
> 
> 
> If someone wants to mark up a commodity TV 20%, it won't turn me off from buying from them. But if I can't get a ballpark (right number of zeroes) price on some electronic project in an hour of web research, I'm not likely to even bother engaging you in what I perceive will a. likely be a waste of my time and/or b. will be a process where you attempt to determine exactly what my pain threshold is, so you can come in 1% under that.
> 
> 
> Fleece me if you want, just fleece me with a web price list.



I have a habit of often not reading entire threads and was responding only to your last post. There's not a single thing above I disagree with and if this is what you mean by transparency, I agree 100%. In fact, it's one HUGE pet peeves when I visit a manufacturers website and they don't list any pricing, I rant about it all the time when I'm the one doing the shopping. However, this is VERY common in the manufacturing industry, not just related to companies in the CI field. In fact it is the norm in the software field as well. The moment you are looking at any software product that is more than $499 it's "call us for a quote" and it's all a big mystery.


In fact, I personally even think it's stupid to not to list pricing in advertisements, which is also the norm. I have often related to people that the first pair of speakers I bought only got bought (we are talking a long time ago) because I was looking through a stereo magazine and there was a full page ad from a speaker company and next to every single model they had the prices listed. I saw the price listed and though "hey, I can actually afford those" and headed to the store to buy a pair. Had the price not been listed I would not have done so.


I've even gotten on the backs of several of my distributors about this and also decided to purchase only from ones that have online price lists. So I'm with you 100%.


----------



## Mattman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mnn1265* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's a bad idea to mark up electronics because they are basically commodities today. Can you imagine if a home builder came back with a proposal to build a home with a huge markup on lumber and nails? You'd probably run for the hills. Customers are typically looking for cues to help them determine if you're a reputable CI or if you're a just itching to reach into thier wallet - don't give them the wrong idea by hiding your profits in mark-ups on the electronics - or as Sokoloff suggested don't hide them at all.



What builder has ever given you an itemized quote to build a house with a quantity and price for materials? You buy a house with the possibility of options (at an additional price). I know several builders and trust me, there is a healthy mark up on those 2x4's and nails.


The way you buy a house is very similiar to the way the top end CI's sell their systems. You're buying a whole package and things are not itemized piece by piece.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mnn1265* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I . Can you imagine if a home builder came back with a proposal to build a home with a huge markup on lumber and nails?



In the world of COST PLUS custom building, then you know exactly what the markup is.


----------



## Bauer83




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mattman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What builder has ever given you an itemized quote to build a house with a quantity and price for materials? You buy a house with the possibility of options (at an additional price). I know several builders and trust me, there is a healthy mark up on those 2x4's and nails.
> 
> 
> The way you buy a house is very similiar to the way the top end CI's sell their systems. You're buying a whole package and things are not itemized piece by piece.



This is completely dependant on your builder. My builder broke down the house by 26 categoies, and has a receipt book for us to go and look at. It also shows the hours worked, and his rates for his guys.


Our fist house however, was exactly what you are stating.


Cost plus is becoming more and more common in every business. and I wouldn't be suprised if home automation goes this way eventually. Right now its still to much of a niche for the profits to work, but eventually that will change.


----------



## faterikcartman

Interesting discussion.


My wife and I love house hunting. Here's some code:

Charming = small.

Rustic = a mess.

Designer's dream = hopelessly outdated.

Price on request = more than anyone in their right mind should pay.


Whenever I can't get an inkling of cost on a sale or service, even with a phone call, without someone trying to come out to the house, I know they want an opportunity to sell me hard and make me feel obligated for their time so that I disregard price.


If a hide-the-ball strategy is working for you as an installer, then this really isn't the thread for you is it?


If you are concerned about your margins and not folding as an operation, then maybe it is time to consider abandoning the hide-the-ball strategy.


Whenever someone takes that approach with me I can't help but feel they are trying to get out of me as much as they can get away with -- totally detached from the product or services value.


If someone is able to do something or sell something as good or better than you for less money does the problem lay with the customer who choses them over you or with you for doing less for more money?


If you really do more and/or better, does that make it any more the customer's fault, or is the fault still yours because you failed at communicating with the customer in an effective manner what sets your products and services apart and makes them worth what you charge?


You may feel they will get screwed by the other installer -- well guess what, the customer doesn't know that either or both of you will screw him so why not get screwed for less?


As I suggested in my previous post, I feel it would be worthwhile to any person in this business to spend a few weekends developing sales flowcharts or other tools that allow them to quickly aprise prospective customers of what their products and services can do and a rough idea of the costs associated with installing them.


Why not have a portfolio, or even detailed photos on a website that show how you started with a home with no pre-wiring. Show photos of cutting into drywall, crawling through the attic, taking a six foot drill through the fire brakes, running the wire to code, bracing and replacing the drywall piece, taping the seams, spraying orange peel, and painting to match (may have to do the whole wall there), and show the home clean and the wall undamaged. Obviously don't be so darn detailed you make it an instruction video for a DIY guy or your compettition!


This is just an example but it would allow the customer to get a better appreciation for what their dollar buys them.


Moreover, I think you are going to be running into more and more informed buyers. They're just not going to stand for a crazy mark-up (now if you've been in the business for 20 years, get written up in all the magazines, and can count on regular filthy rich clients in Rancho Santa Fe, then maybe you can charge whatever you please).


Why not give the customer the option of buying the item themselves and possibly getting the best price but any warranty trouble is their headache. For 10% mark-up you'll pick it up, deliver it, and cart away the box and packing foam, for 25% you'll handle the warranty trouble for them so they don't have to talk to someone in India or ???


Some people are still going to give you 25% because they just don't want the hassle and their time is worth more than the trouble is worth (people like Bill Gates lose money anytime they try to DIY). Others are going to want the best deal and take the chance on warranty trouble.


These people, for example may not be up to running cable through their walls, but may be totally competent to take the tv off the wall and call tech support.


Importantly, by pricing for your services at all levels, as suggested above, you now have the chance to have a semi-DIY guy as your customer, when before you really didn't have a shot at it because he's too tight with the money and to unfamiliar with what value you bring to the project to play pricing guessing games until you shock him in the end and wind up complaining about him on the internet.


Of course, if you have so much business already that you don't need or want to attract customers like this, then this really isn't a thread that concerns you.


Identify what you bring to the table that adds value for the customer and price it accordingly. If you can't do that successfuly, then maybe you are better off calling it a day.


----------



## Greg C

Why is it that people that are not in our industry feel that they know how we should run our business better than we do? Don't make money on product, just charge more for labor. Don't sell items that have limited distribution because everything is now a commodity. Do you tell every oter business that you come in contact with how wrong their business model is?


----------



## Sokoloff

Because of the golden rule.


"He who has the gold, makes the rules."


These are your potential customers complaining about a practice that's fairly widespread in your industry and that turns us off from engaging you and *giving you money*, and we're trying to help you understand that it turns us off.


Feel free to listen or ignore as you wish.


----------



## IVB

Not trying to pick a fight here, but i'd like to point out that we *are* in your industry. We're potential customers, and most of us shied away from hiring a pro because of the perceived cost. I hired someone to build a deck for me because, even though I could have easily built it myself in a few weekends, they came to me with an approach that made ROI-sense to me. I coudn't figure out the same for HA/HT, so I'm DIY'ing it.


As potential customers, what I think folks are doing is giving you feedback as to how your approach is being perceived by one section of HA/HT customers. Many of us are business owners and drivers in our own right, and as such have run into many of the same buzzsaws, and are trying to share our lessons learned with you. Of course, some of us are just pricks and want to needle away because we're insecure and want to feel good about ourselves, but not all of us.


Which ones of us are pricks and which ones of us are trying to proffer guidance from the customers perspective, and whether this is a set of customers whose input you even value or not is a personal call that each CI here would make on their own










EDIT: Sokoloff beat me to the punch, and did so more succintly. Well Done!


----------



## WRET AUDIO

The systems we put in could not be put in by our customers. They just do not know enough about this stuff to make this actually work in any quick and easy fashion. We know how this stuff works better than anyone. I can design a system in an hour that will work well for years. The issue here is that everyone knows two things, their jobs and A/V. I would like to know how many DIY people out there and mostly in this forum have put a system together, ended up needing to buy a part they didn't know they needed or ended up buying something that doesn't work as well as they thought. I bet if they look back and could do it over again they would consider hiring a CI to just come in and get it done right fast and the first time. Easy control of all this stuff is the most important issue to solve. If you push a button and TV doesn't turn on, it doesn't really matter what cables you used or the resolution of your display. Control is priority 1.


If there is a person out there that wants a nice system installled in one week that works everytime they pick up their remote, they are my customer and the total package is going to cost $X,000. That package costs more than the price of the gear. A price on a plasma is just a line on a page. If it makes anyone feel better, I'll give you the plasma for free. The bottom line number is what it is for the turn key system.


If there is a customer out there that wants to pick my line item prices apart or actually thinks they could do this themselves, I really don't even need to see them.


Its all based on the cost of convenience.


----------



## Bauer83




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> If there is a customer out there that wants to pick my line item prices apart or actually thinks they could do this themselves, I really don't even need to see them.
> 
> 
> Its all based on the cost of convenience.




But isn't that the whole point of this thread. That there is many people who want some form of integration, at what us 60K a year people perceive as reasonable value. I think its quite naive to assume home owners cannot build a system to fit their needs. I know this for a fact, as my CQC based system is working very well for our family. I can alter it whenever I need to, and improve most things that currently bug me. You are one hundred percent accurate that if I were to do it again, I would change some things. But there is no way I would feel good about paying someone 10K to ensure that I got everything the way a pro would. It might not be as polished as the one that you provide, but it does provide the similar functionality with a very high acceptance factor in my house. If I were to just leave it now, the wife would probably be ecstatic. But its a hobby, its enjoyable, and I won't stop tweaking.


I think the point that is getting missed here, is there are a lot of semi-tech savy people who are looking for reasonable (again I state 60K a year people) solutions for their home. They do exist, their is a huge market for it, you just don't see the value in being in it and there is nothing wrong with that.


----------



## faterikcartman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Greg C* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why is it that people that are not in our industry feel that they know how we should run our business better than we do? Don't make money on product, just charge more for labor. Don't sell items that have limited distribution because everything is now a commodity. Do you tell every oter business that you come in contact with how wrong their business model is?



If they get on the internet complaining that their profit margins are going in the crapper and they are having trouble staying in business then yes, I am more than happy to offer my advice.


I presume you understand that I've got the money and they want it?


Who would know better than me how to get me as a customer?


If your current business model is a screaming success and you have no complaints, as I indicated above, this really isn't the thread for you.


----------



## WRET AUDIO




faterikcartman said:


> If they get on the internet complaining that their profit margins are going in the crapper and they are having trouble staying in business then yes, I am more than happy to offer my advice.
> 
> 
> My point to start this whole thread was that A/V and HA profit margins are not at all what most of the customers believe them to be. We are not making money hand over fist. I am not going to retire after one job. I just wanted at least the small percentage of people that read this thread to know that!
> 
> 
> I am in this business because I have the know how and ability to make a living at it. It just amazes me how most people assume there is a ton of money in this. Please read my first thread for that explaination. If it makes anyone out there feel better I will tell you that I can not afford anything close to the type A/V systems I put in everyday. Do you honestly think that a Ferrari car sales man can afford a Ferrari? He is after all a car sales man, and I am a residential/commercial contractor and my pay scale is pretty much on par with that.
> 
> 
> I don't need a discussion on business models, I have a degree in business for that. I just wanted to correct to perception of margins in this industry.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *faterikcartman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If they get on the internet complaining that their profit margins are going in the crapper and they are having trouble staying in business then yes, I am more than happy to offer my advice.
> 
> 
> I presume you understand that I've got the money and they want it?
> 
> 
> Who would know better than me how to get me as a customer?
> 
> 
> If your current business model is a screaming success and you have no complaints, as I indicated above, this really isn't the thread for you.



Personally I think you attorney's should move to a fixed bid model. I'm tired of your excessive hourly rates.


----------



## Greg C

What some of you don't understand is that the client that wants to do some if it DYI or pick our proposal apart and suggest a lower capable/quality product is not our customer. We (CI's) design and install complete turnkey solutions. I have nothing against a DYI such as IVB who took the time to research, develop, install & program his system. He did it for a combination of saving some money (in exchange for his valuable time) and for the shear pride & enjoyment of being able to say he did it himself.

On the other hand, PennGray seems to have no respect for what we do, and compares a system with used equipment cobbled together to be comparable to what a CI will provide a client, and tells everyone that we are ripping off the public.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Why is it that people that are not in our industry feel that they know how we should run our business better than we do? Don't make money on product, just charge more for labor. Don't sell items that have limited distribution because everything is now a commodity. Do you tell every oter business that you come in contact with how wrong their business model is?



I dont think anyone is saying any business model is wrong but there are always ways to improve any business.


You could sell Hogs, Toilet seats, Cars, Custom IT solutions or Home Theaters and its still a business with the same underlying principles. What makes this business so special?


Personally, I live amongst those who can afford these systems and I get their point of view on it.


Here is a a great number for you....15 houses over 1 million in my sub division and 2 have a full HA system, why only 2? Well its simple, the rest dont believe the 70-100K numbers, too many hidden items, people in today's internet world will not accept that any more, we can spend 15 minutes searching and find price ranges for so many things. Intangibles like service are just too hard to place a value on any more.



This is a problem and you dont want us to tell you about this? We are not telling anyone how to run a business. You can do what you want, I dont care. Im giving a good reason why people balk at current prices.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> On the other hand, PennGray seems to have no respect for what we do, and compares a system with used equipment cobbled together to be comparable to what a CI will provide a client, and tells everyone that we are ripping off the public.



Different thread, different topic but I listed NEW equipment for full (size and scope matter) HA and with design everything was around 25K, it was a turnkey solution. What does a 100K solution have that it doesnt? I know somethings exist but people dont really want fluff too much.


Personally, I do DIY because I can do it better then most and no one had the solution I wanted, my project has been extremely successful and cheap. "cobbled" together? Maybe you think it is, Last I checked everyone wants me to recreate my system for them so opinions will vary


btw, I respect anyone that runs a business. Its an incredibly time consuming venture and its hard to make it work.


Also remember I was the customer, I was looking for a sytems 1 1/2 years ago but the attitude is amazing, it was almost as insulting as the price tag (on certain items). Do CIs think they are really smarter then the customer?


Last year, I asked why HA costs so much....


replies....

-because they do and they are worth it, like a ferrari ( I still laugh at that one, HA is not a freaking Ferrari, it turns lights on and off, it allows us to watch TV and Video anywhere, it will never be a Ferrari).


- Maybe you can not afford a system if you are complaining about the price....Yeah, good reply.





Price tag problems (EDIT: Last year)....


$5000+ for touch screens, RIP OFF!!


$6000+ for flat panels, come on...I know everyone model and every price out there....TVs dont break down so wtf service you trying to sell me here.



Dont hide your costs in these items. Give me $100/hr rates and how much time estimated. I dont mind I charge more then that in my business.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is a a great number for you....15 houses over 1 million in my sub division and 2 have a full HA system, why only 2? Well its simple, the rest dont believe the 70-100K numbers, too many hidden items, people in today's internet world will not accept that any more, we can spend 15 minutes searching and find price ranges for so many things.



Ah, so that's why only 2 out of 15 houses have it, it's because there are too many hidden items. Thank you for that astute analysis. LOL.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> $5000+ for touch screens, RIP OFF!!
> 
> 
> $6000+ for flat panels, come on...I know everyone model and every price out there....TVs dont break down so wtf service you trying to sell me here..



More astute analysis. I would like to collectively thank you for the entire custom installation community for NOT doing business with one of us. I do wish you would stop RIPPING OFF your own customers. It's quite clear to me if you can afford an HA system you must be ripping them off. And besides, $100 + an hour for your services?! RIP OFF, how dumb do you think we are? I know what this stuff costs. I can get my PC tuned up at Office Max for $9.95.


Idiotic response above? Yep, you're looking in the mirror.


----------



## WRET AUDIO

I can't speak for all CI's out there, but I charge what I charge because I have too. The light bill, insurance, payroll, .......... costs what it costs to keep the doors open! To keep this business going, I have to make a certain amount on every installation job. That amount makes it impossible to do a very small/cheap job, because no one is going to pay the cost of the gear plus what I have to make to not lose money on the job. This means that I have to concentrate on larger/high end jobs because they are the only ones I can sell and make a living.

The issue I have is that you all think we are making a killing out here and we are not. I make far less than all/most of my customers. The part that gets me is that if you called an HVAC guy to upgrade your air conditioner, do you then shop his quoted equipment price on the internet to get a lower price?

I just ate at a salad bar for lunch. I am not going to go to the grocery store to check the price of lettuce and salad dressing. The reason they charged me $10 for a drink and salad was because they have to stay in business. I don't feel cheated because I ate $.10 worth of lettuce! The business owner has to pay his employees and for nice air conditioned building for me to eat lunch in! It's a service, and that is what I provide. If you want to eat cheap, go to grocery store, if you want service, call me!


----------



## Lee L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The issue I have is that you all think we are making a killing out here and we are not. I make far less than all/most of my customers. The part that gets me is that if you called an HVAC guy to upgrade your air conditioner, do you then shop his quoted equipment price on the internet to get a lower price?



I can see both sides of the issue, but I can tell you people do do this for sure. I work in commercial contracting and I have had someone who we gave a cost to put in an A/C unit in a server room for a total of about $14,000 find a cost of the unit on the web at something like $5000 and was all upset that we were "screwing them over".


Well, the only issue with that is that he is on the second floor of a 5 story building. The guys had to run the piping up 3 floors through an occupied building, patch the roof and install the outside unit, then install the unit inside, start it and test. Since he did not want to use a pump for the condensate, we had to then drill into the floor below and hook a gravity drain into the plumbing below. Of course a one year warrantee coems with this.


But, I also sat down with them open book and we went through all the numbers.


----------



## WRET AUDIO

That kind of internet shopping is the norm for A/V. I hope you all don't have to suffer through that as often as we do. If so, we all need to get our heads together and figure out another way to make a living. We can them tell all the "shoppers" to get the internet to put what they want in.


----------



## Sokoloff

Was the salad bar price clearly posted, or did it just say "Ask us, and we'll have a conversation to understand your salad and beverage needs and get back to you with a price quote in a few days."? Was the salad bar price entirely in-line with your expectations based on your experiences with other food-court type purchases in the past? I'm sure the answer to both is "Yes" so you don't need to answer.


Part of the problem you're reporting on your original post (doing a bunch of work and losing out to a competitor) is that people ARE being forced to shop around, they're getting sticker-shock when you quote them AND you're getting undercut by competitors. Not on apples-to-apples, but maybe your customer isn't a fruit connoisseur and your task is to educate him why your truffle-encrusted pomegranite is more expensive than the simple ear of corn the other guy is selling. Maybe the problem is your customer only has a corn budget and he inadvertantly wasted your time without realizing so until it was too late. Maybe that customer was truly an ass and wanted to jerk you around for sport, but I'd think that's the least likely.


Why would you have an issue with whether any of us think you're making a killing? It's none of my business and I honestly hope you are. If your service is as good as you say, you deserve every penny of it. If your service is as good as you say, then your sales process needs to get better at educating your customer on that point.


----------



## WRET AUDIO

Every CI that a customer talks to will say how great they are and what great service they offer. I don't waiste my time trying to tell the customer how great we are because I don't expect them to believe me. I'm just another CI trying to get their business. Its just like the car salesman telling you "you're in luck, there is a sale today!"

I can walk them through some mine fields and offer to get them in touch with past customers to really find out how we are, but if they don't take the time, they'll never find out.

I guess after seeing enough potential customers go the other way and buy terrible systems, I can feel good about the fact that I wouldn't do that to them. Maybe by the time I'm 90 years old I'll have a reputation built up in this town as a honest and qualified business man, but I can't pay the bills with reputation!


----------



## Beach_Guy

I have to say, this has been quite the interesting read. It's been good for me to hear opinions from both sides as I, as a consumer, have been struggling with this exact issue for the past couple of months. I fall in the $200K+ income bracket, work in the computer industry, and I'm an avid HT hobbiest.

My home is about 5 years old and I originally spent ~$50K putting in a AMX/PHAST Control/Audio/Video distribution system but it seems so antiquated now when compared to current products that I am now looking to upgrade. I have gotten estimates from 3 different CI's but just can't seem to bring myself to go with any of them.

My frustration has been that when I inquire into the products and pricing I get full MSRP pricing on the products plus what seems to me excessive installation fees. Now when I say "excessive", I mean, it's more than I paid for the installation of the initial system when they had to do all of the original wiring, etc. In theory (and the CI's I'm working with seem to agree), they should be able to use the existing wiring and just replace the hardware. Combine this with the fact that I can get the street prices for the systems on the internet as alluded to above and the prices are half of what they are quoting me, I just can't help but feel I'm being taken advantage of.

Now I realize it's hard to quantify exactly what "fair" pricing would be for something like this but to backup what some of the other consumers were saying above, if I could find a CI that would give me competitive pricing on the hardware(street +15%) and break out the installation costs with an estimate of hours*hourly rate (even $100/hr would be acceptable) I would certainly feel a lot better about it. Then I can at least see they are spending X number of hours working on it and that it did indeed take that much time and effort to complete the job.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.


----------



## WRET AUDIO

That does seem excessive. On a lot of jobs, our installed total price comes out to be the same as if you just added up the full retail prices on all the gear. It works out a lot of times that an installed job comes out to about 2 times the dealer cost of the gear. I seriuosly dought there is a market where you can charge full retail on the gear plus labor to install. If there is, I'd like to know about it.


----------



## CTay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can't speak for all CI's out there, but I charge what I charge because I have too. The light bill, insurance, payroll, .......... costs what it costs to keep the doors open! To keep this business going, I have to make a certain amount on every installation job. That amount makes it impossible to do a very small/cheap job, because no one is going to pay the cost of the gear plus what I have to make to not lose money on the job. This means that I have to concentrate on larger/high end jobs because they are the only ones I can sell and make a living.
> 
> The issue I have is that you all think we are making a killing out here and we are not. I make far less than all/most of my customers. The part that gets me is that if you called an HVAC guy to upgrade your air conditioner, do you then shop his quoted equipment price on the internet to get a lower price?
> 
> I just ate at a salad bar for lunch. I am not going to go to the grocery store to check the price of lettuce and salad dressing. The reason they charged me $10 for a drink and salad was because they have to stay in business. I don't feel cheated because I ate $.10 worth of lettuce! The business owner has to pay his employees and for nice air conditioned building for me to eat lunch in! It's a service, and that is what I provide. If you want to eat cheap, go to grocery store, if you want service, call me!



I think you may be missing the basic economics in question here. I'm sure you're a nice guy and I bet we would get along great at a ballgame but if I'm looking to hire you to do a job the last thing on my mind is how easy it is for you to pay your light bill. That is your problem. My problem is buying the "PRODUCT" that I want / need for a price that I deem to be worth it.


The product in this case is the whole picture, not only the hardware but also the installation and service after the fact. People value parts of that product differently. I for instance NEVER buy extended warranties. I assume the risk of failure on my products because I don't believe it is worth it to pay someone else to assume that risk for me. However, to others an extended warranty is vital.


What others have been trying to point out I believe is that by not having transparency in your pricing that allows us the buyer to evaluate you based on what we value, you drive people out of the prospective buyer pool. Of course then the price you charge has to be equal to the value buyers put on it. If your price is higher you could try to raise the value the buyer places on it by education or you can send them on their way and work on the next guy.


Doesn't matter if it is a ham sandwich or a HA system, if price does not equal value it's no sale.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Beach_Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Combine this with the fact that I can get the street prices for the systems on the internet as alluded to above and the prices are half of what they are quoting me...



Without quoting the rest of your post, which I think stated your opinion eloquently, I always have to wonder when I see statements like the above one. It always seems like each time a discussion like this comes up I see statements like this, which I consider higly misleading, but when the poster is pressed I never see them substantiated.


There are only a few possibilities:


1. You are greatly exaggerating.


2. You managed to find someone unreputable that is selling products for far above retail. I've seen it happen, but VERY rarely, so that's unlikely.


3. You are mistaken for one reason or another.


4. You are falling for the common Internet scams of websites that list bogus prices or play bait and switch games.


5. You happened to find some closeout where a dealer was selling a specific product below cost to move it.


How can I be sure of this? Well, it's relatively simple. Since even at full retail most of the products we sell do not have a markup of twice what they cost, it would be impossible for anyone to sell them at half price unless they are selling them below dealer cost.


If you can give specific examples of items that you found at half of what you were quoted, I'd really like to see them.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't waiste my time trying to tell the customer how great we are because I don't expect them to believe me.


*YOU* have to believe it first. If you believe you are great, then you have a better chance of getting the customer to believe it. You are not selling cars. You are asking a customer to give you $50-250K to create an experience for their home. If you can't convince them that you are right person for the job I see how you might be losing some jobs. And you might be losing them to lesser companies with better salesmen.


----------



## robertmee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> If you can give specific examples of items that you found at half of what you were quoted, I'd really like to see them.



www.fleabay.com


----------



## WRET AUDIO




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CTay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think you may be missing the basic economics in question here. I'm sure you're a nice guy and I bet we would get along great at a ballgame but if I'm looking to hire you to do a job the last thing on my mind is how easy it is for you to pay your light bill. That is your problem. My problem is buying the "PRODUCT" that I want / need for a price that I deem to be worth it.



I don't expect you to care about my light bill, but if you wonder why my prices are higher than xxx.com selling "reconditioned" or "B stock" then thats why.

I guess I should expect these responses from a DIY forum. The fact that you all may be missing is the fact that I design systems far more complicated than a DIY could do themselves. The few of you that have talked to your local CI and thought their prices were crazy high, it may be because you think you can do it yourself, or your small system is simple enough to actually do it yourself. We are obviously talking about two different systems.

The funny thing is that I will give better pricing to a customers that will sit down with me, talk about what they need, we'll work out a system that meets their budget and we'll get started. It's that simple. A customer that wants to shop my design, second guess every piece, want to meet 12 times to discuss where he found a lower price, I will charge them more for pain and suffering.

I have some great customers that buy from me and only me. When they need something, they'll call and I'll drop what I'm doing to go see them because I know they are serious. I will be more than happy to give them a discount without even asking.


----------



## CTay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't expect you to care about my light bill, but if you wonder why my prices are higher than xxx.com selling "reconditioned" or "B stock" then thats why.
> 
> I guess I should expect these responses from a DIY forum. The fact that you all may be missing is the fact that I design systems far more complicated than a DIY could do themselves. The few of you that have talked to your local CI and thought their prices were crazy high, it may be because you think you can do it yourself, or your small system is simple enough to actually do it yourself. We are obviously talking about two different systems.
> 
> ....



I'm sorry but I believe you missed my point. The point is that you must sell the difference between yourself and the guy selling the b stock thus raising your perceived value and justifying the price difference.


I guess you should expect these responses from a DIY forum. You can't expect "DIYer's" to understand how much smarter you are than us. Surely someone with such limited mental ability, such as myself, who would choose to design their own system over paying your fees to do it for me couldn't be expected to fully grasp the differences between feces and Shinola. Frankly I'm shocked that I was able to get up this morning and tie my own shoes (good thing my wife bought me those velcro ties last month...).


Could that "holier than thou" attitude be why your customer choose to go with someone else?


----------



## lcaillo

Wow, some really productive discourse there...


The fact is that there are all levels of needs for service. The fact that some people want to DIY, some want to just get the lowest price, and some want to just be smart consumers should not offend nor suprise. As I said before, it is the jog of the salesman/designer to qualify the client. When one loses money on a design or spends a lot of time then loses the sale, it is often because of not paying attention to the needs and desires of the client, and not recognizing that one is trying to provide something that "they ain't buying."


Condescending attitudes nor sarcasm lead to much that is useful.


----------



## WRET AUDIO




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CTay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but I believe you missed my point. The point is that you must sell the difference between yourself and the guy selling the b stock thus raising your perceived value and justifying the price difference.
> 
> 
> I guess you should expect these responses from a DIY forum. You can't expect "DIYer's" to understand how much smarter you are than us. Surely someone with such limited mental ability, such as myself, who would choose to design their own system over paying your fees to do it for me couldn't be expected to fully grasp the differences between feces and Shinola. Frankly I'm shocked that I was able to get up this morning and tie my own shoes (good thing my wife bought me those velcro ties last month...).
> 
> 
> Could that "holier than thou" attitude be why your customer choose to go with someone else?



Thanks so much for understanding exactly what I am trying to say.


I don't at all believe I am smarter than any customer. What I do know is that I work with this stuff all day long, 40+ hours a week. I have learned much over the years that allow me to do HA and CI work much easier and faster than someone doing this as a hobby.


I don't tell the mechanic how to fix my car. He knows more about that than me and I pay his labor rate which is similar to mine because he can do it faster and better and I just don't want to mess with it. If I wanted to fix it myself, I wouldn't go to the repair shop to ask him how to fix it, ask him for a quote, then try to do it myself.


----------



## CTay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks so much for understanding exactly what I am trying to say.
> 
> 
> I don't at all believe I am smarter than any customer. What I do know is that I work with this stuff all day long, 40+ hours a week. I have learned much over the years that allow me to do HA and CI work much easier and faster than someone doing this as a hobby.
> 
> 
> I don't tell the mechanic how to fix my car. He knows more about that than me and I pay his labor rate which is similar to mine because he can do it faster and better and I just don't want to mess with it. If I wanted to fix it myself, I wouldn't go to the repair shop to ask him how to fix it, ask him for a quote, then try to do it myself.



And if your mechanic came to you with a price 4X what you were expecting you would just pay it with out asking questions? You wouldn't try to figure out WHY it was so much? You wouldn't start doing the math in your head "Well, the twiterpator that he says I need is only like $20 but he is charging me $80... It can't be that hard to change a twiterpator... maybe I can look online to figure it out...". You may be willing to pay $80 / hr so you don't have to fool around with the car but would you be willing to pay a hefty markup on the parts as well?


If you asked him why so much and he told you stop being a bother and just pay me would you still give him your business?


----------



## WRET AUDIO

I dought any price you may have seen is marked up x4. How did you calculate the x4 mark up. Was it on the exact same model new in the box delivered to your door.


If I trusted the mechanic I would be willing to pay what they ask even if it is a little more than I could get it on-line. You have to pay for convience.


----------



## ginigma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I wanted to fix it myself, I wouldn't go to the repair shop to ask him how to fix it, ask him for a quote, then try to do it myself.



Maybe I wouldn't ask him _how_ to fix it, but I would certainly get a quote and decide if it's worth my time to save some money and do it myself.

Oil changes are a great example: When I was younger, and my time wasn't worth anything, I would do them myself. Now, between the materials and my time, it's worth the $20 to have a shop do it. Yes, I can probably do it for $12 in materials, but I'll pay not to get my hands dirty. However, I still know what it's worth.

Any major purchase, I do a lot of research and ask a lot of questions. If you don't want my business, there are 3 other company's waiting in line.


----------



## WRET AUDIO

I don't mind the questions. I have a reason behind all my product selection, install methods and price. I would ask question also, but when someone wants me to discount my price 10% because they found a refurb on-line for less. There are some rip offs out there, but there is also a time where it is worth it. I guess that's decision we all have to make if its changing oil or driving across town to save a nickel on gas.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> but when someone wants me to discount my price 10% because they found a refurb on-line for less.



I am with you 100% here, but what if a customer does not want or need a $12K Fujitsu plasma when a $7K Pioneer will satisfy them? Shouldn't they have the ability to ask where a quote may be cut down without offending the CI? As has been pointed out, many customers have no idea what a full integration job may cost, so if they are expecting $75K and the quote is $100K, they are still willing to spend the $75K, but they just want to know they have spent it wisely.


I would venture a guess that your customer demographics are changing. More people in McMansions that can make the payment, but can't really afford the house, want what the Jone's down the street have. So price is more of a factor to them. They won't value your work less, they just value their $$$ more than other clients.


----------



## CTay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I dought any price you may have seen is marked up x4. How did you calculate the x4 mark up. Was it on the exact same model new in the box delivered to your door.
> 
> 
> If I trusted the mechanic I would be willing to pay what they ask even if it is a little more than I could get it on-line. You have to pay for convience.



I said 4x what you were expecting not 4x mark up. Your original post said:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I put together an estimate which ended up at $150K. The customer tells me that is more than they wanted to spend. I redesigned it leaving all the functions they really needed and wanted. Re-submitted a new estimate that met their budget.
> 
> Friday I get a call telling me they went with a different contractor that had better prices!



One of the things that has been talked about is transparency. Many people have suggested that CI's build a type of basic pricing structure so as to put customers in the right mind set for their prices. Currently there is no way to find out what a full Crestron system may cost with out "waisting" a CI's time as the prices are guarded like a state secret. Then when the CI comes in and says $150k when the customer was thinking $30k they start looking around for better deals. That is when the cut rate guy gives them what seems like the same control for a fraction of the price and the first CI loses out on the job.


Or perhaps the $150k price tag didn't scare them away but made them a little suspicious that there must be a ton of profit built into that bid. So they start to look a little closer at the bill and wonder why they are getting charged 30% more (to be conservative) for a device they know they can get for cheaper elsewhere. So they decide to price shop and they find someone who is willing to do a "similar" system for much less. Off they go...


In my opinion if you want to stop the wild goose chase you have to do some sales work up front.


----------



## WRET AUDIO

By all means. The most important time I spend on a project is with a customer. 99% of my customers just want a good system without throwing money away. That is where I can help by telling them where they really should spend some money and where they can save money without losing quality. There are so many ways in the residential A/V world to waiste money. All the "Monster Cable" companies are out there telling people they need this or that when there are many justa s good products out there for less.


----------



## nishan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It always seems like each time a discussion like this comes up I see statements like this, which I consider higly misleading, but when the poster is pressed I never see them substantiated.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> How can I be sure of this? Well, it's relatively simple. Since even at full retail most of the products we sell do not have a markup of twice what they cost, it would be impossible for anyone to sell them at half price unless they are selling them below dealer cost.



QQQ - you're one of the posters I always look forward to hearing from...always well written posts. The question of markups always comes up, but no one ever seems to be willing to give a ballpark answer.


Why is that?


People have known invoice pricing on cars for years, but that doesn't mean you can walk into a dealership and demand a car at invoice. It just levels the playing field between the dealer and the customer. Ordinary market forces still apply.


Houses are the same way. You may not know a builder's costs for nails and such, but you can look at comps and also get a rough idea of $/sq ft. When you buy a resale, you do know what the "cost" was for the current owner...it's whatever they paid before.


The response to this questioning is always "well, do you know the markup at Wallmart or Best Buy". I think this overlooks the fundemental point. I don't need to know the markup at BestBuy because those stores operate in such an intensely competitive market, that an efficient market should exist. I'm basically guaranteed a fair market price for their goods.


Take Crestron for example. When I saw distribution pricing for the items, the typical discount off MSRP was 35-37%. So on a 100$ item, the distribution price was around $64. So...the markup is 56% or the profit margin is 36%. A direct dealer price may be lower, so the actual markups/profit margins may be higher.


Is this too high or too low? It's neither. It is was it is, and if the market will bear it, who am I to question. I just don't know why there is such secrecy.


----------



## WRET AUDIO




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CTay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I said 4x what you were expecting not 4x mark up. Your original post said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the things that has been talked about is transparency. Many people have suggested that CI's build a type of basic pricing structure so as to put customers in the right mind set for their prices. Currently there is no way to find out what a full Crestron system may cost with out "waisting" a CI's time as the prices are guarded like a state secret. Then when the CI comes in and says $150k when the customer was thinking $30k they start looking around for better deals. That is when the cut rate guy gives them what seems like the same control for a fraction of the price and the first CI loses out on the job.



Most manufacturer's do not list pricing because it would have to be full retail. And sure enough, somebody is going to look at full retail on product X vs. Best Buy's on product Y and come to the wrong conclusions. Besides, the manufacturer does not set the price, the retailer does. You aren't buying from the manufacturer, you are buying from the retailer. Also, if a person is interested in a product, I would much rather them get in touch with a retailer then go the manufacturer's website.


----------



## WRET AUDIO

I know why Crestron doesn't give you prices.


If you went to Best Buy and they had equipment you wanted, but none of it worked out of the box and you had to pay a factory trained tech to make it work the way you wanted. What difference does it make what dealers paid for it, or what the MSRP was. The only price that matters is the the installed price.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I guess I should expect these responses from a DIY forum. The fact that you all may be missing is the fact that I design systems far more complicated than a DIY could do themselves. The few of you that have talked to your local CI and thought their prices were crazy high, it may be because you think you can do it yourself, or your small system is simple enough to actually do it yourself. We are obviously talking about two different systems.



??? you don't know me, so how do you know what I can or can not do? you seem to know more about my abilities then I do? how is that possible? if you would of said " I design systems far more complicated than a DIY could do themselves in X amount of time" you really would have a valid point, experience counts a lot for getting things done quickly and correctly, but if a limited amount of time is not in the equation, then your experience does not tip the scales in your favor so much, so what makes you think you are so much better then I?


as far as price goes... CI's charge what they charge, good ones are worth it, if the final result has value to you... bad CI's aren't... (not quite a CI story, but it applies to price) I bought my Lex MC12b at a local shack, almost a hut really, they were an authorized dealer, they gave me a great discount, and they are great people to deal with. I could of got my Lex online for about 30% less at that point in time... I never even mentioned that to them when they offered me the discount that they did... I did get them to include a free DVD though... and it really had nothing to do with being a authorized dealer... for me at least, cost is secondary to the people I am dealing with. now that I think about it, maybe thats why I have no money...


[Free Plug] If you happen to be in Hoffman Estates, IL, Stop by Simply Stereo, they really are great people to do business with... they even do/did some sort of CI installs, maybe just HT? I don't know, I haven't been there in a few years, haven't needed anything...


----------



## WRET AUDIO

You must not have read the "two different systems" part of my thread.


I design systems that are more complicated than the customers can do themselves. If your system is simple enough to DIY, then please do. I know lots of people and customers that have the ability to learn how to do this, but they would rather pay me to put it in, then trying to learn all this, then trying it themselves. If you have the time, then go for it!


----------



## CTay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I know why Crestron doesn't give you prices.
> 
> 
> If you went to Best Buy and they had equipment you wanted, but none of it worked out of the box and you had to pay a factory trained tech to make it work the way you wanted. What difference does it make what dealers paid for it, or what the MSRP was. The only price that matters is the the installed price.



Well you have discovered why Best Buy does not sell Crestron. Nice work. You still are no where near explaining why they don't list prices but one mystery at a time I guess right?


The MSRP gives a way of roughly estimating the cost of an item. If the MSRP of a TV I want is $X I can guess I will pay somewhere less than X. If there is no MSRP or no way to get the price of an item other than "waste" your time how am I to choose if I will buy that item? How can I choose between Item A and Item B if I have no idea what either item costs?


I guess you must live in a world where money is no object but I think the vast majority of people do not.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You must not have read the "two different systems" part of my thread.
> 
> 
> I design systems that are more complicated than the customers can do themselves. If your system is simple enough to DIY, then please do. I know lots of people and customers that have the ability to learn how to do this, but they would rather pay me to put it in, then trying to learn all this, then trying it themselves. If you have the time, then go for it!



I read that, but how do you know your systems are more complicated than what the customer can do themselves? what makes you think that a DIY cannot create just as complex a system? what makes you so sure they are so different?

at least for me, complexity is irrelevant, when if comes to hiring any 'professional' anything it comes down to just a couple points:

(in order of importance)

a) Do I actually want to do it my self?

b) how long will it take to do DiY and when does it have to be done by...


z) Price (if I really can't afford to do something then I may have to find an alternative)


cost is mostly irrelevant if I don't want to do it... I pay people to mow my lawn, I hate mowing the lawn... even though it would be much cheaper for me to mow my own lawn, having someone else do it is a huge value to me...


Home automation - I don't care how long it takes, and I do want to do it myself, just because playing with all this stuff is fun to me... I never talked to a CI to get their plans/input/or even pricing as I never planned on using a CI... actually, at the moment I don't even have a plan, the end result isn't even that important to me, its more the playing with new 'toys' bit... I guess at the moment I am not a very good DIY'er... but still how do you know that when/if I stop playing around with my new 'toys' and finally get around to coming up with a total solution, that it wont be just as complex as anything you could come up with? or even more complex? (well in this particular case you are probably correct, but thats only because I am lazy... but there is still a huge difference between can't and wont)


there is nothing special about 'Professional' anythings, even CI's, they are just there do do things that their customers don't want to do themselves... and are willing to pay someone else to do for them. that does not make them better in any way then their customers... (well at least most of their customers, I once had to do a field service call to a house where a lady kept checking the water level in a lead-acid battery with her finger, and wanted to know why it made her finger 'tingle'...)


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CTay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well you have discovered why Best Buy does not sell Crestron. Nice work. You still are no where near explaining why they don't list prices but one mystery at a time I guess right?
> 
> 
> The MSRP gives a way of roughly estimating the cost of an item. If the MSRP of a TV I want is $X I can guess I will pay somewhere less than X. If there is no MSRP or no way to get the price of an item other than "waste" your time how am I to choose if I will buy that item? How can I choose between Item A and Item B if I have no idea what either item costs?
> 
> 
> I guess you must live in a world where money is no object but I think the vast majority of people do not.



I'd like to clarify a few issues. First of all, I'm a strong proponent of manufacturers publishing price lists, that is my *personal* view. But let's not distort the issue.


1. Crestron DOES publish a retail price list just as many manufacturers do. They just don't list prices on their website nor send out price lists to consumers. They are going to refer you to a dealer. Like it or not, that is standard operating procedure for *MANY* manufacturers in all industries. It is hardly isolated. I'd hazard to guess that the majority of manufacturers work this way. I encounter it ALL the time when I am calling up manufacturers. If you call them one the phone they refer you to a dealer and if you ask them for a retail price they may give it depending on who answer.


I'd hazard to guess that if we all started rattling off sites at random you'd find that 95% of them do not list prices on their website. Let's try a few...

Krell

Martin Logan

Samsung

Panasonic

Sonance

Triad

Focal

Velodyne

Sony

Try those and get back to me. Now you are going to say "I can easily find prices for Panasonic online". Yes, you can, BECAUSE demand is high and it is not a specialized item. But the fact remains that if you call Panasonic they are going to refer you to a dealer to get pricing.


2. The fact is that Crestron is NOT a product that can simply be purchased and plugged in. A Crestron touchscreen on its own does NOTHING. A Crestron processor on its own does NOTHING. And without being programmed they do NOTHING. To install a Crestron system a power calculation must be done based on all the components in the system and the length and gauge of cable in the system. Then it is determined how many power supplies and hubs are needed for the system. That can run from $500+ to $5000+ for large systems.


My point being that like it or not, you ARE purchasing an "installation" NOT just a TV, and for this reason Crestron and similar customers want consumers calling a dealer to get a quote. Again, this is no different that the reason why so many software companies don't publish their prices lists. Go to SAP or any of the other billion dollar companies and see if you can find a price list online!


Am I saying this is the correct approach to take? Personally I do not like it but I do understand it.


3. If you would like to know the retail price of a Crestron piece you are welcome to post asking. I'd be happy to answer. It's hardly a secret.


4. Apart from DIY, which represents perhaps .01% of Crestron's market, what most people want to know is "what is a Crestron system going to cost" and then as they proceed "how much is this touchscreen versus this touchscreen". Both questions should be able to be answered pretty easily in broad terms. "A Crestron system is going to start at 50K and from there the sky is the limit". "This touchscreen is $2000 and this touchscreen is $4000".


Now the problem is a lot of people don't like that, but them is the breaks. That is what it is like to buy m,any very high-end solutions. I think publishing retail price lists would make it a _little_ easier, but only a little.


----------



## QQQ

Could we please stay away from inane arguments about whether CI's can do work better than DIY's and visa versa? Let's all just take pride in our work and leave it at that.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> What builder has ever given you an itemized quote to build a house with a quantity and price for materials? You buy a house with the possibility of options (at an additional price). I know several builders and trust me, there is a healthy mark up on those 2x4's and nails.
> 
> 
> The way you buy a house is very similiar to the way the top end CI's sell their systems. You're buying a whole package and things are not itemized piece by piece.




My custom home was built last year and everything is itemized so it does exist. More and more I have to itemize the work I do, down to each module I develope for a company. The accountants out there want ABC stuff on everything.


Someone else posted about the "Cost Plus" business model, yes I like this business model. because nothing his hidden and also yes it is a pain in the a$$.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My custom home was built last year and everything is itemized so it does exist.



Oh come on. I see countless construction bids and in general very little is itemized. Much more common is a broad description of what is included.


"Carrier 2-ton HVAC system with 2 Thermostats and 3 Zones". $35,000" (or what ever). And good luck going out to those websites or manufactures and getting retail price lists!


----------



## Art Sonneborn

QQQ,

Please read your PMs and respond.


Art


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> More astute analysis. I would like to collectively thank you for the entire custom installation community for NOT doing business with one of us.




No problem, its funny that the CI community is posting about profit margins and so on trying to make us think all its tough out there and you reply with that. Thanks for another attack, you are always good for a laugh







and Im happy you speak for the successful CI industry


----------



## penngray

QQQ, its all about connections and research. Yes I know what everything cost in my house.


btw, you are right that this isnt common but it should be customers would benefit from it and the knowledge would go a long way to protecting the customer.


----------



## faterikcartman

Wret Audio, you started this thread complaining about wasting your day with people who nearly choked on your quote.


Then days later you said you are more than happy to sit down with people and to figure out a quote.


To me, it sounds like you are willing to say anything to justify yourself in this thread depending on what someone else is saying at the time.


I think some folks are right about you being a little too full of yourself as well.


My wife has Ivy League degrees in chemistry and literature and was admitted to a top ten medical school and top ten law school. I have a degree from the University of California having graduated with 236 units (enough for three degrees) including courses in computer programming. I was admitted to a top twenty law school. We're both now lawyers.


With all due respect I find it near impossible to believe that given all the time I need to get up to speed that you would be able to design a better system than we could ourselves. Why? I'm fairly confident we're smarter than you.


I admit that isn't the freindliest way to put it, but you apparently didn't understand when another poster tried to explain it in much more polite terms.


I'm sure you felt confident making your assertion because companies like Crestron see to it that Joe DIY guy doesn't have easy access to documents like this:

http://www.crestron.com/downloads/pd...design_kit.pdf 


Obviously there are others but that is just an example.


I think many people have started talking about transparency because they suspect they are paying more than they should. If you are charging what your services are worth they wonder what you are hiding -- I think they suspect you are trying to hide that your services are not worth what you are charging.


Your responses here suggests that you are quite willing to tell them to pound sand. What impression do you think they get from that?


Moreover, if the market has enough information it tends to reflect accurate pricing.


What this could mean is that with enough information in the market your profit margins should be exactly what they derserve to be.


In other words, if your profit margins are small, then perhaps it is because your services have a smaller value than you thought or hoped.


It could also mean you simply fail to provide the market with enough information to value your services accurately.


This concept, in different words, was, I believe, explained to you by another poster. You also basically told them to pound sand. I also explained at great length the value in providing the market with as much information as possible to gauge the value your bring to the table.


I suspect many DIYers in the home automation arena don't do it simply because they love spending their time doing this stuff. It is probably because they cannot get enough information from the market to make an accurate assessment of pricing and performance.


When they live in a house of standard construction for an area and they call up and an installer cannot give them even the vaguest idea what some features might cost to install without a personal "consultation" at home, they likely figure that the installer has no experience doing these things in a home like his and/or just wants the person-to-person in-home sales pitch opportunity because his prices do not match the value he offers so that he needs to create the obligation often implicit in a personal meeting.


You and maybe a few other installers have mentioned that certain kinds of customers who ask a lot of questions just aren't really the kind of customers you want anyway.


First, as I've tried to state before, if you've got all the business you want, stop complaining.


Second, the die-hard DIY guy was never going to be your customer so what do you lose providing more information?


I assume you fear you will lose a customer who will turn into a DIY guy if you give them enough information.


Well doesn't that say something about the value of your services?


On the other hand, I suspect you would actually gain customers. Many, like me, have a good sense of what their time is worth. If you can provide them with enough information to justify why it wouldn't be worth their time, but is worth paying for yours, I think they'll be more willing to hire you.


Moreover, once you give them an idea of what they are looking at without any invasive home visit, they can have the opportunity to think about it and evaluate it so that they feel comfortable about inviting you over for a personal consultation that should waste less of the time both of you assuredly find valuable.


You may worry that he will take that price and shop it and get a lower price. Well that might tell us one of the following:


First, they get a lower price for an apples to road apples comparision between two dissimilar systems -- which reflects a failure on your part to explain the benefits of your system recommendation and the problems inherent in the lower cost alternatives.


Second, you failed to find the nexus between what the customer wants and what he wants to pay so that you missed the chance to sell a lower cost, lower performance system. It may be that you don't want the headaches of call-backs inherent in lower cost systems, or perhaps you want to address a different part of the market. Regardless, no one builds and installs lower cost systems without making money on them so there must be profit there somewhere. You, of course, can determine whether getting a piece of that profit is in your business interest.


Third, you are mistaken regarding what your services are worth and comparable alternatives are available at a lower price.


If you refuse to provide any information there may be other installers who are willing to provide the information that allows the customer to do a cost-benefit analysis and who, as a result, will never give you a chance.


It may also be that they just decide that their own time is worth less so that they should just DIY -- you lose nothing providing these people information and potentially save a lot of wasted time on them.


When you just tell people that they couldn't do as good a job as you can and that the only price that matters is the "installed price" I think you are not only insulting people who might run circles around you, but making a mistake as well.


Even a lawyer will give you an itemized contract showing how much you will pay for each copy, each fax, each court reporter, each videographer, each hour of a paralegal's time, each hour of secretarial time, and each hour of the attorney's time -- broken down in six to fifteen minute intervals. I suspect there are fewer people who can successfully DIY an attorney's work than HA.


At the risk of repeating myself, if your business model is correct, you are likely getting paid just what you deserve.


If you think that you are getting paid too little -- i.e., your profit margins are small -- something is wrong with your business model.


Many folks endeavoured here to help tweak your business model to reflect the information rich society that the internet has created.


So far, you have thumbed your nose at us -- and not just the DIYers you were never going to get as a customer anyway.


If you can afford to do so, bully for you; though I wonder why you started this thread?


I think you stated that you did so to let folks know your profit margins were, in reality, rather narrow, in contrast to what we may have thought.


Why bother?


Did you think people might take you at your word and go "oh, that's how it is!", "well I'll just pay what they're asking and not worry about whether or not I'm getting fleeced."


I doubt I'm alone in reading your responses to mean exactly that.


Nor do I think I'm alone in thinking that such a belief is crazy.


Let me conclude by explaining in simple terms some sentiments echoed above:


Any of us can easily order a comparable model tv, projector, or audio unit, either online or at a local brick and mortar. As a result, we are going to be insulted if you pad the price because you are trying to charge for something we can do ourselves. While you may have gotten away with this for years, should not suggest to you that you can continue to do so as more and more people become internet savvy.


We may or may not be able to do what you do -- given enough time. Even if we could, you should make it your job to explain why we shouldn't want to bother. Explain, for example, how wives tend to flip out when there are holes cut into the wall for weeks because you have a day job, or the system isn't up and running for six months or more because you've never programmed a computer.


When you can't tell us over the phone, even only in rough approximation, what it would cost to do certain things in a house like ours, you sound like you lack experience working on homes like ours, you really have no clue because you lack experience, or you do know but are ashamed to tell us because it is so freaking outrageous that you need to bamboozle us in a person-to-person meeting. Make it part of your job to have flow charts prepared to have a rough idea of certain costs over the phone so we can have an idea what we're in for before you come over and waste the time of both of us.


When you are too embarrassed, ashamed, or simply unwilling, to state how much you charge for your time and estimate how much time you'll take, we can't help but suspect you really aren't worth that -- because even you lack the nerve to stand behind it! This ties in with the padding of hardware prices noted above. Charge us the market rate for the hardware and the market rate for your time. Make it part of your job to justify the value of your time and have a good sales-pitch/honest explanation at the ready. Trying to convince us your time is cheap while padding the prices of the items we can cross reference is only going to make us feel like you are ripping us off. There are only so many wealthy people who can be fooled like that and it becomes harder and harder as more people get internet savvy. You are, in my opinion, continuing that business model on borrowed time.


I'm sure I could go on, but I've got to run.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *faterikcartman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm sure you felt confident making your assertion because companies like Crestron see to it that Joe DIY guy doesn't have easy access to documents like this:
> 
> http://www.crestron.com/downloads/pd...design_kit.pdf



I am unsure of how that proves your point, if anything it proves just the opposite. That document and many others are publicly available for ANYONE to download right on Crestron's website. How is that not easy access?


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No problem, its funny that the CI community is posting about profit margins and so on trying to make us think all its tough out there and you reply with that. Thanks for another attack, you are always good for a laugh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and Im happy you speak for the successful CI industry



My post was an appropriate response to yours. Sometimes you add useful info to threads but more often than not your input consists of uninformed insulting comments towards CI's. I think what you did as a DIY is wonderful, but you're obviously too insecure to *truly enjoy* it, or you would not have to constantly try to bolster it by mocking what CI's do or endlessly talking about our "RIP OFFS" and how everything is over priced and so forth.


----------



## QQQ

faterikcartman,


I have a much more interesting issue to discuss than profit margins. Is there a reason you write every sentence as its own paragraph? I know that you are an attorney. Do you bill by the paragraph, is that it?


----------



## faterikcartman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am unsure of how that proves your point, if anything it proves just the opposite. That document and many others are publicly available for ANYONE to download right on Crestron's website. How is that not easy access?



My only point was regarding to what I could imagine Wret Audio's thinking was based on. The impression I get here based on questions I remember reading, Joe DIYer has had trouble ferreting out this information, unlike price searches for products.


If it is truly so easy to find, why not be transparent about everything including prices? After all, some above have argued that the hardware is worthless without the programming know-how and the programming information should be looked at as the real closely guarded secret.


And QQQ, just so we're on the same page, I am in the camp of thinking what you do is totally 100% worth it for consumers. I actually DO think you should be paid well for you time and that it is worth it. Many, if not most all, of my friends would never be interested in this sort of thing as a DIY project even if they were 100% capable of it -- given enough time.


I do feel, however, that they/we would be much more interested if we could more readily identify where the money goes and for what and to get an idea of what we were looking at cost wise before we waste our own or someone else's time.


When everything is a big mystery without a long person-to-person and full-blown custom plan we tend to just put it off and off and off as it starts looking like a "if you need to ask you can't afford it" propositions, whereas if we could have an idea of costs, we could start to daydream about it in a way that eventually drives us to do something about it.


We put off a large retaining wall project at home for years because without rough pricing information it just became so nebulous and people tend to assume the worst.


I hope you believe that my efforts at joining in the discussion here are motivated by a desire to bring the minds of customers and installers together to meet where they may otherwise have remained apart.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could we please stay away from inane arguments about whether CI's can do work better than DIY's and visa versa? Let's all just take pride in our work and leave it at that.



to maintain the high level or integrity and maturity that I continually try to surpass I must state that "he started it"









ok

I am done.









have a nice day...

and yes I am and have been, just having fun... perhaps at someone else's expense, but I am ok with that...


Oh, and I really have nothing against CI's, I believe they serve a (mostly) good service, and most of them are probably good people who do an excellent job... my reasons for going DIY where that I just didn't want to follow the beaten path...



oh 2:the sequel... QQQ is a party pooper, taking all the fun out of inane arguments... Inane arguments are the BEST kinds of arguments.... well at least the most fun...

















peace out


after looking back at this a bit, it could seem a bit um, well trollish (is that really a word?) anyway, that was not my intention at any point in this thread. sorry if anyone took it as such.


----------



## QQQ

faterikcartman,


As I stated earlier, I have found your input valuable







.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> My post was an appropriate response to yours. Sometimes you add useful info to threads but more often than not your input consists of uninformed insulting comments towards CI's. I think what you did as a DIY is wonderful, but you're obviously too insecure to truly enjoy it, or you would not have to constantly try to bolster it by mocking what CI's do or endlessly talking about our "RIP OFFS" and how everything is over priced and so forth.




I have never understood why my posting that in my opinion a $5000+ touch screen is a rip off?? and how that offends CIs.


Also, I dont remember ever posting that the work a CI does is a rip off either. You always think that though and have been on that one statement for over a year. I have posted many times that I think many of the "items" are a "Rip Off".


I do know that hardware costs a certain amount of money, I have bought hundreds of comercial touchscreens for business. These screens work in sub zero environments too and they are not even close to that price tag. Now people can argue that the "expensive" touch screens come with lots of "bells and whistle" and that is all and great but give the customer the option dont just list the "expensive" items trying to make the great profit. This happens, you guys may not do it here but it happens out there all the time.


CIs doing the work is well worth $100/hr, I dont mind that at all because I know what it takes to develop software and make things work with hardware.


Get over the work "rip off", its purely subjective and secondly stop getting defensive and personal when a customer disagrees with a product line or the subjective nature of its quality.


_A ripoff (or rip-off) is a bad deal. Usually it refers to an incident in which a person pays too much for something. A ripoff is distinguished from a scam in that a scam involves wrongdoing such as fraud; a ripoff, on the other hand, is in the eye of the beholder._


Yes those expensive touchscreens and way overpriced flat panels are a bad deal....or....Rip off!


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> We put off a large retaining wall project at home for years because without rough pricing information it just became so nebulous and people tend to assume the worst.



I know that one all too well










20K for the one I had to put in last year for the pool....the lot slopes down more then 30+ degrees and we needed something. The Quote was 13K, final bill 20K...nice shocker there.


----------



## VetteRacer

QQQ, just as FYI, my bored self checked, mostly to see what some of the brands are..

Panasonic lists MSRP on the product list page, you can figure out what model you want by price alone without looking at details of any of them.

Krell lists nothing

Martin Logan nothing

Samsung prices can be seen through Buy Online

Sonance nothiong

Triad nada

Focal nope

Velodyne nothing

Sony lists prices same as panasonic.



Now, onto something useful. (Some might be repeat from early in thread, dont remember)

I think that catering some very basic details to potential customers in your area can be a great thing. Give a few examples of installs, basic info about system used (2200sq/ft home, controller, HVAC, Security, 20 light switches, 3 Touchpanels, etc), then the price, if it was $35k, or $65k, etc... If thats a fairly average scenario for customers in your are you are going to save alot of time with people who dont know what to expect, if someone that knows nothing about HA contacts you and in one form or another they obtain that sample install information it will give them alot of insight into what to expect.


I'd like to get into the industry in the future because I love what HA/HT is about. So I guess I would be considered a DYI'er... But there are lots of things in the house that I have no interest in doing.

Such as landscaping my backyard... Roughly 20ftx35ft, rock and concrete. Over the phone I was told a basic range dependent on many things, BUT i was given a range to know if I should scrap the idea or have an estimate done. The low was below what I was expecting so I had estimate done, talked about options and got everything broken down, even told what faux grass would cost in case I was interested in going with his design suggestion.


I think a great way to do things for HA is to have a generic Email setup to send to customers (or posted online). Giving possible things to automate (HVAC, irrigation, blinds, etc), so that they know ahead of your consultation what they could do. Give examples of installs done, with basic info mentioned above. That way they can cancel appointment if its 10x what they were thinking.

That way when you get a potential customer you can setup an appointment, email them information, seems like it would cut out a lot of wasted time, since it takes a minute to send the email, vs 2+ hours to meet the person and go over the basics just to have them say WOAH too much $$...


Matt


----------



## audiblesolutions




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *faterikcartman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My only point was regarding to what I could imagine Wret Audio's thinking was based on. The impression I get here based on questions I remember reading, Joe DIYer has had trouble ferreting out this information, unlike price searches for products.
> 
> 
> If it is truly so easy to find, why not be transparent about everything including prices? After all, some above have argued that the hardware is worthless without the programming know-how and the programming information should be looked at as the real closely guarded secret.
> 
> 
> And QQQ, just so we're on the same page, I am in the camp of thinking what you do is totally 100% worth it for consumers. I actually DO think you should be paid well for you time and that it is worth it. Many, if not most all, of my friends would never be interested in this sort of thing as a DIY project even if they were 100% capable of it -- given enough time.
> 
> 
> I do feel, however, that they/we would be much more interested if we could more readily identify where the money goes and for what and to get an idea of what we were looking at cost wise before we waste our own or someone else's time.
> 
> 
> When everything is a big mystery without a long person-to-person and full-blown custom plan we tend to just put it off and off and off as it starts looking like a "if you need to ask you can't afford it" propositions, whereas if we could have an idea of costs, we could start to daydream about it in a way that eventually drives us to do something about it.
> 
> 
> We put off a large retaining wall project at home for years because without rough pricing information it just became so nebulous and people tend to assume the worst.
> 
> 
> I hope you believe that my efforts at joining in the discussion here are motivated by a desire to bring the minds of customers and installers together to meet where they may otherwise have remained apart.



I have not read this entire thread so flame away for this brazen bit of intemperance if you are so inclined. I believe you have made some very valid points and I have no desire to challenge a single one you have made. I do wish to suggest, if it has not already been suggested, that the reason I do not provide line item pricing is because it leads to arguments and price negotiations. If I provide you with a proposal where I discount my labor due to the equipment pricing I've included and we come to dispute those equipment prices, I have a more difficult time lower the equipment price and then turning around and increasing the labor. The assumption is that the total is fixed but lower line items will result in a lower job total.


Here I am, stuck in barbarian territories wasting 2 hours because a bad bit of firmware tends to force me to erase and upload files and at 15 minutes per file that has been 2 hours today, 3 hours yesterday. I wasted 2.5 days on a Compool system that had a bad RS-485-RS-232 adaptor Compool supplied. I have had bad serial cards in security systems, bad cable boxes, bad scalers, bad plasmas. I've had HVAC contractors wire zone 2 to the zone 3 input of a zone controller. I've had bad custom cable after bad custom cable blamed on me. I have driven 2 hours to a job because an emitter fell off, a light bulb burned out or batteries needed to be replaced. A cable box locks up and I have a service call.


My point, which is not necessarily meant specifically for you, is that I assume all of the risk and I don't get to up my estimate from 13k to 20K if I am wrong. But I also don't care to get into negotiations with those more skilled at it than I or less reputable, as the case of the infamous thief and his Nigerian enabler. I know I will finish the job. I can control that. I cannot control if you are honorable and have leaned through experience that it has to be my ball or no game. Thus, if you wish me to do your job, my rules and those rules include job pricing, not line item pricing. After all, I am paid not to supply you with a plasma or a set of speakers but a system that works. Therefore pay for the value added, the system, not the specific components that make up that system.


Alan


----------



## audiblesolutions




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *herdfan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually, that is exactly why I do it. I enjoy taking a "black box" and making it turn on music outside, or turning on lights at dusk or changing the basement thermostat from the kitchen. There is great satisfaction in the learning aspect of doing these things. Plus I like the physical aspect of doing the work myself as a stress releiver.



Which is why I continue to post here, however less frequently than I once did. Why would I not wish to share in the karma with someone like you or a certain Northern left coast DIY whose path to integration Nirvana can be enjoyed by many who care to read of his journey. There is no inherent reason for hostility between the DIY and the professional. For the few here there has been respect. On the whole there is blatant disrespect, I think because those who believe they can do it themselves undervalue the effort involved perhaps because they love it and see it as fun not work.


Alan


----------



## Sokoloff




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiblesolutions* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have not read this entire thread so flame away for this brazen bit of intemperance if you are so inclined. I believe you have made some very valid points and I have no desire to challenge a single one you have made. I do wish to suggest, if it has not already been suggested, that the reason I do not provide line item pricing is because it leads to arguments and price negotiations. If I provide you with a proposal where I discount my labor due to the equipment pricing I've included and we come to dispute those equipment prices, I have a more difficult time lower the equipment price and then turning around and increasing the labor. The assumption is that the total is fixed but lower line items will result in a lower job total.



Why would you discount your labor?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiblesolutions* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thus, if you wish me to do your job, my rules and those rules include job pricing, not line item pricing. After all, I am paid not to supply you with a plasma or a set of speakers but a system that works. Therefore pay for the value added, the system, not the specific components that make up that system.
> 
> 
> Alan



I'm a huge believer in doing value-stream analysis. In my view, your *labor* (to include design) *IS* the value-add that you bring to the table. Your supplying the required parts is non-value-add, but merely required to realize the benefits of the value-add labor that you bring. Charge me dearly for the value you add. Charge just enough to cover your costs where you don't add any value.


(In other words, I'm agreeing with you in the whole, but telling you how I'm framing that agreement in a manner consistent with some of the other "customer" voices in this thread.)


As to whether to quote line items or jobs, that's your call, but if you quote only jobs and your customers continually balk, you should examine that sales process decision. Then again, you aren't the one complaining about lost sales and having time to post to AVS all day long, so maybe your sales are doing just great. (I honestly hope so.)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiblesolutions* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here I am, stuck in barbarian territories wasting 2 hours because a bad bit of firmware tends to force me to erase and upload files and at 15 minutes per file that has been 2 hours today, 3 hours yesterday. I wasted 2.5 days on a Compool system that had a bad RS-485-RS-232 adaptor Compool supplied. I have had bad serial cards in security systems, bad cable boxes, bad scalers, bad plasmas. I've had HVAC contractors wire zone 2 to the zone 3 input of a zone controller. I've had bad custom cable after bad custom cable blamed on me. I have driven 2 hours to a job because an emitter fell off, a light bulb burned out or batteries needed to be replaced. A cable box locks up and I have a service call.



If you supplied the hardware (as any sensible CI would demand when bidding a job, at cost-plus), you're responsible for managing Compool, the security vendor, Lumagen, whatever; *you* picked them - *your* problem. Same with the bad firmware on a product you specified. For HVAC contractors mistakes; if you're the general contractor, you have to eat it or charge it back to them. If you're just a sub, talk to the GC (which might be the homeowner). That's why a GC marks up his subs work, and why you *ought* to be marking up parts above your cost, but I think CI's would do better to realize that they add value with their hands and brains and their warehouse is only a necessary evil, not a profit center.


For the ticky-tack callbacks, a nominal service call fee might be a better way to align your customer's true needs and your labor availability, especially if you waive the fee at any chance that your company was "responsible" for the call. Some of those marginal service calls you should eat because it's just a cost of doing business for a good customer, creates goodwill, what-have-you.


But if you continually come change batteries without charging for the truck-roll, why not bring along a lawnmower and hit the front lawn while you're there?


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, I dont remember ever posting that the work a CI does is a rip off either.



Let's just pretend that sentence is accurate, and we'll ignore the fact that so many other people manage to post diverging views on this subject and cordially disagree, while without exception every CI seems to be offended by you. Maybe you just don't wear CI friendly deodorant.



> Quote:
> I have never understood why my posting that in my opinion a $5000+ touch screen is a rip off?? and how that offends CIs.



If it is really that hard to understand for you, it's doubtful my explaining it will help, but just for sh*ts and grins, the answer is that it implicitly denigrates the person who sells such "RIP OFFS" and suggests that they are unethical and taking advantage of people. In spite of your claims to know "all about xxx" when pressed in the past you've exhibited close to 0 knowledge of the products that you blast. You've never seen them, don't know how they are different than cheaper alternatives, and don't even know what they do (oh I forgot, you have seen your buddies system and yours is so much better, I take it all back).


I use Crestron touchscreens because there is NOTHING else available that will allow me to accomplish what I can with them (save AMX touchscreens). Now if you don't see the value, that's fine. I don't see the value in a lot of things and may personally find them over priced, but that does NOT mean they are a "RIP OFF". Evidently even flat screens TV's over 6K fall into your category of "RIP OFF". Gee, I can't imagine why anyone would take offense at the eloquent statement:


> Quote:
> $6000+ for flat panels, come on...I know everyone model and every price out there....TVs dont break down so wtf service you trying to sell me here.



A really good/cool TV perhaps which you are free to take or leave?


Now again, if you want to question the value of something in a polite way, that's a different proposition. I saw another CI state the other day that his opinion of Runco was that it was gold plater poop and I was LMAO. Yes, I've always doubted the Runco value proposition too, just as you might question Crestron's (though I personally think they are not remotely similar). However a lot of very good people, both buyers and sellers love Runco, and I don't feel the people selling them are ripping people off nor are the people buying them being ripped off.


Lastly, items that are made in lower quantities for specialized markets are generally going to cost more due to economies of scale. So it's hardly a rip off if a specialized product costs more, whether that product is Crestron or a Fujitsu plasma or a Subzero refrigerator. You may question the value proposition, but that doesn't mean it's a rip-off. All of the same arguments can be made with regard to labor BTW. If you charge $100+ per hour I could scream "rip-off" because I can find it for muss less. If faterikcartman charges $250 an hour I can scream rip off because some very good attorney might charge less. But it would be ignorant for me to do that and certainly offensive to the persons whose rates are being called a rip-off.


Which brings up another issue. I wonder if some of you guys feel as though you should have to meet the prices of online vendors in those areas of labor, since some of you seem to think a CI is not being reasonable if they don't meet or come close to the price of online vendors for equipment. I can order all types of legal services for $199. Does that mean I should expect faterikcartman to adjust his pricing to beat that or be close to it? I can now go to Internet logo companies and pay $299 and get 5 different designs and unlimited revisions. There are all sorts of work including IT that I can now source out over the internet. Does that make a graphic designer that charges $1000 or $2000 for a logo project a "RIP OFF". Of course not. I may choose to go with the $299 option, I may even be convinced I got a better product. But I would never denigrate that professional by accusing his services of being a rip-off. Now if it's a palm reader, I might







.


I just wasted way too much time arguing this.


----------



## nishan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What difference does it make what dealers paid for it, or what the MSRP was. The only price that matters is the the installed price.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The fact is that Crestron is NOT a product that can simply be purchased and plugged in....My point being that like it or not, you ARE purchasing an "installation" NOT just a TV.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiblesolutions* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> After all, I am paid not to supply you with a plasma or a set of speakers but a system that works. Therefore pay for the value added, the system, not the specific components that make up that system.




All three of you said the same thing, and I think almost everyone agrees with that idea. But I also think that's the whole argument. When you go to a CI you are purchasing their expertise and time. Almost all of the equipment and the pricing, as multiple posters have pointed out, is readily available to end-users. I can place an order tonight, and all the equipment is at my door in 2-3 days. Thus your value as a CI to me is your installed price minus the price I could buy the equipment for. What you provide has to justify that cost.


For instance take a whole house audio system. I recently installed a Nuvo and the job was trivial. Read the manual, terminate cat5 and speakers wire, configure and you are done. There was nothing custom or difficult about it. Setup took under a hour. My speakers were mostly placed, and I hired a handyman type to place a few more and run a few wires. Hiring a CI, paying *full MSRP* for a Nuvo and then "installation" charges would make no sense. The systems these days (Nuvo, Adagio, Niles) are almost completely plug and play.


On the other hand take a crestron. Here you can buy the the equipment cheaper than MSRP, but then you need to hire a programmer. Could be cheaper, but maybe not. Obviously not plug and play, and a woking design costs time (thus money) to develop.


The point, as faterikcartman and many others have said, is that you have to show me what added value you are providing. The home automation market is not big enough for me to have confidence that *your* price is the *right* price.


----------



## nishan

My other thought is why is the HA market so small. In many parts of Atlanta, you can throw a stone and hit a 1-2 million dollar house. Yet out of my house and my colleagues, as well as houses we toured when moving to Atlanta, the only builder installed true whole house audio system was a Russound a-bus in one. The rest were all simple rotary volume controls. After a few days of living with the Nuvo, I asked my wife if she thought it was worth an extra few thousand dollars, and the answer was an unequivocal yes.


Maybe working with a builder is too much trouble or maybe the jobs are too small. I just can't beleive that there are enough 150K jobs out there, but there must be 1000s of 10-20K jobs waiting to be done in Atlanta alone.


Eventually someone is going to figure out how to make a commodity based model work in home automation. Control4 is probably taking the lead. They were laughed at last year, but judging by the posts at RemoteCentral, they seem to be making a lot of headway.


----------



## Gurkha




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nishan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe working with a builder is too much trouble or maybe the jobs are too small. I just can't belive that there are enough 150K jobs out there, but there must be 1000s of 10-20K jobs waiting to be done in Atlanta alone.



It has been my experience that few cookie cutter builders want to be involved with us CI types. Custom builders on the other hand love having CI types on board.


Cookie cutter builders typically have tight schedules, perceive us as an added headache, do not see us as a value add and typically push this kind of stuff, if it comes up, on to their electrical contractor. And I am not slighting EC's, since I am one, but most EC's that I run into in my area are a volume knob, single rg6, single cat5 mentality. And that is not enough to do a half way decent, let alone good automation work. A lot of times we get the call from the homeowner and come in after the fact, snaking wires and cutting/patching to give them what their spec home did not include. And the tight schedule comment I heard and did not understand, especially since our proposal was just for a prewire and included no electronics, but that is what the GC said was one of the reasons he was not interested in us.


Custom builders, on the other hand include automation budgets in their proposals, work with us from the design stage and the projects come out working exactly as the client expects, weather its a 10k or 200k project.


Don't get me wrong, I would love to work with spec builders, and have tried so in the past on several occasions, but they have not got into their head space yet that our field is emerging as the 4th contractor, where custom builders and homeowners are now thinking that way. My AV partners and I offer packages etc, they just don't buy into it. Or worse, think that because they are gonna do us a favor and include us in their project, that they deserve a DEEEEEP discount and should not have to pay for anything. I have had that discussion several times and not done work for them.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nishan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> QQQ - you're one of the posters I always look forward to hearing from...always well written posts.



Thanks for the compliment







. This has been an interesting discussion and I'd like to discuss it further but am going to limit myself at the moment...


> Quote:
> The question of markups always comes up, but no one ever seems to be willing to give a ballpark answer.
> 
> 
> Why is that?



Actually, I've addressed the issue quite explicitly in some threads here, but perhaps you've missed them. There was a thread in this forum that went on for many pages a couple of months back where I addressed it in some detail.


But I think the answer to your question is obvious frankly. Sellers of ANYTHING are generally not in the habit of announcing to people what the product they are selling cost them for the same reason that buyers don't typically say "hey, guess what, I just got a 100K bonus and I'm dying to buy a really cool home theater. Please help me spend every last penny of that". Come on, is it really that complicated







? Does a developer advertise how much profit they are making when they sell a condo? Does a software company? Does an attorney advertise how much profit he makes on his hourly rate? For that matter, do you share your net worth with your neighbors?


However I suggest that knowing cost (as in your car example that I do not quote) does not really change the playing field that much at all. It's mainly psychological. Market forces still apply.


----------



## QQQ

Now as an integrator I have a question for you folks, nishan, faterikcartman, Sokoloff, and CTay. Please assume each of the following:


1. You want to hire a system integrator to implement a large system for you.


2. You want that integrator to be totally responsible for everything. In other words, if you call him and say I have a problem with xxx, and you purchased xxx yourself over the Internet, you don't want him to tell you "you'll need to call the seller about that". You also want him to include installing xxx as part of his proposal. He will do this with the caveat that the agreement has limitations, and if you purchase a problematic product from another vendor he cannot spend hours and hours and hours resolving said problem at no charge.


3. You understand that his installation warranty (typically one year) will not cover items purchased through other vendors. he will service them, but will charge for every hour of his time doing so.


What would you consider a reasonable percentage (on the equipment you purchase elsewhere) to pay him to take on the responsibility of installing those components and servicing them when they require service? 0%? 10%? 20%? 30%?


Another alternative would be to ask the same question with the understanding that the installation warranty would also cover said components. My concern logistically in that instance if if I do not represent the company/product in question that you purchased elsewhere and/or the product is some new product that you chose that is bug infested and just doesn't work, how do I provide a "reasonable" warranty yet still limit my time and liability so that I could say "look, this projector is going to keep breaking and you bought it from xxx and I can't keep spending 2 hours every week trying to get it fixed".


----------



## Sokoloff

I've previously stated that I don't think an integrator should agree to be responsible for a product purchased from a third-party. If it's a brand/model you don't normally support (your last case), that's pure insanity-no amount of charge for warranty (that anyone would pay) could cover your backside, learning curve, lack of connections with the manufacturer, etc on a one-off (to you) piece of gear.


If it's a brand/model you normally spec, my answer in your shoes is "buy it here, and it's supported here; buy it elsewhere and it's supported elsewhere."


To answer the direct question, as a customer in your hypothetical case, I'd rather pay an hourly/job service call rate for problems with equipment that I bought plus whatever the reasonable hourly fee for the install is (item #3 I think). Percentages don't mean anything here; installing, connecting and tweaking a G70 that I bought for $1000 will take FAR longer than a $4500 RS-1. 100% for the G70 might even be low, but no way in hell I'm paying 100% for someone to hang an RS-1, etc, even if that includes a year of bulbs.


I am an a la carte consumer at heart. I have no problems paying for labor and services, I tip well, I don't buy extended warranties, I only buy insurance against true catastrophies, carry high deductibles everywhere, etc. I don't worry about being "nickel and dimed" down the road, so I'm personally unwilling to pay the price up-front that you would have to charge in order to cover your exposure in order to support my Ebay/6th Ave equipment. Our demand and supply curves never intersect.


I understand how impossible that would be for you to price and have anyone but absolute scammers buy and my only two points in this thread are to encourage transparency pre-sales (to get better qualified leads talking to CIs and unqualified leads to drop out faster or even immediately, without being embarassed since they found out they can't afford it on a website rather than at an in-person interview). I'm sure there are people who could afford a $20K system who aren't talking to anyone because they pick up some AV Design mag, see that the installs run $250K+ and assume that they can't get in the game. On the flip-side, someone who sees X-10.com, says "hell, I can afford that" may be calling you up for a consult and only has $500 to spend on the whole project. Inefficient all around.


Second is to encourage CIs working with guys like me to think about charging a fair price (say, market + 10-20%) for the gear and "make your money" in the labor charge, because that's where you add value. If you tell me that you can give me a good experience, faster than I can do it, with my girlfriend not on my back about holes in the walls and plaster dust everywhere for a year and having to hold a flashlight helping me fish wires, and be on a first name basis with the UPS guy, and having me on AVS at 12:30 on a Saturday night and that I'll get good service down the road, I can wrap my mind around that being worth 150 hours of $100 an hour, or 50 hours @ $150 + 100 hours @ $100 or whatever you decide the right price is. I can't wrap my mind around near as easily around paying twice the going rate for a commodity plasma or receiver, in exchange for a 90 hours at $90 labor quote. (Yes, I graduated from MIT and can do the basic math and understand that it doesn't really matter economically as long as the totals are the same, but you can sell me WAY WAY easier the first way than the second. In the second way, I'll assume you're "getting greedy" or have a very inefficient supply-chain or other bad management process on the parts, so you are liable to suffer the same flaws on the labor. That makes your value proposition go WAY down in my book.)


----------



## QQQ

A couple of quick comments and back later for more.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sokoloff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ....without being embarassed since they found out they can't afford it on a website rather than at an in-person interview.



Well just to clarify I'm afraid I don't have much in common with the person/s complaining about having their time wasted







. I only work on a design basis on large scale projects (i.e. I don't do any work for free) and by the time I meet someone I'm going to have qualified them (as well as have helped them qualify me) enough that the type of think you mention above is not going to occur. In the event that I spend time with someone that's my call and I never complain if nothing comes of it.


> Quote:
> second is to encourage CIs working with guys like me to think about charging a fair price (say, market + 10-20%) for the gear and "make your money" in the labor charge.



Well see, this is where I think some assumptions are not correct. Unless you are defining "street prices" as fly by night gray market outfits selling at below cost prices, I think most CI's (or at least a LOT of CI's) would be more than happy to meet that challenge...at least if we use the 20% number. From the CI's perspective I think their beef is that they give someone a quote and then someone wants to buy all the stuff on the Internet, but have the CI install it and be responsible for it, and even expect them to service it, without paying them hourly to do so.


I think you might be amazed at what CI's encounter on an almost daily basis. I participate on an industry only board where this is talked about ALL the time. Here's a common example that was reported the other day. CI does install and hooks everything up and it all works good. Customer gets in piece he ordered over the Internet and tries to hook it up himself with wires CI left between plasma TV and wall. Can't get it to work and calls up CI. Has a **** fit when the CI tells him he will charge to come out and hook it up. Thinks it should be free because he can't get it to work. Such customers also CONSTANTLY think service calls should be free (within warranty period) regardless of what caused them and regardless of where they purchased the equipment, as long as they paid the CI to install it. You may say this is irrelevant to the conversation but when this is what CI's who aren't only doing high-end projects face EVERY day, perhaps you can see the problem of agreeing to install equipment and just charge hourly. It result in constant fights with customers. This is why a lot of CI's just want to make their margin so they can afford to build all that into their charges.


Now you may not like that, but think about this. Do people prefer to buy their cell phone or satellite receiver and pay for them and pay for their service separately? That is the business model you like. Transparent pricing as you call it. Joe Consumer typically doesn't want transparent pricing.


----------



## CTay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now you may not like that, but think about this. Do people prefer to buy their cell phone or satellite receiver and pay for them and pay for their service separately? That is the business model you like. Transparent pricing as you call it. Joe Consumer typically doesn't want transparent pricing.



It is very late so I will make this brief...

1) the reason that you don't buy cell phones or satellite service like that has nothing to do with how people prefer to see pricing. It has everything to do with making the cost sound less so that consumers think it is worth it to purchase very expensive services. If the actual price of the cell phone for instance was clear to the buying public I doubt you would see very many people walking around with new phones and their new two year contract. Companies are not confident enough in the value of their service so they attempt to hide the real cost. Sound familiar?


2)There are idiot customers in every line of business. If I for instance prepare a tax return with information provided by the client then get an IRS notice 2 years later because they didn't tell me about ALL their income they still expect me to handle the IRS for free. This risk is built into my standard billing rates. I don't charge less for my time but more for the paper the return is printed on so I don't scare people away. I also don't go complaining on some CPA forum about how people are ruining my business by being stupid then ignore and berate any who try to give advice on the situation.


3)If I hire a CI to do a job and against his advice I purchase something from a "Grey Market" vendor... say someone like Newegg... It really shouldn't be that hard of a conversation to say "Look buddy, I'll install it but it is your problem if it doesn't work." That can't be that hard of a message to get across. So my preferred answer to your what percentage should I mark up is 0%. Charge me your cost (All your costs shipping, holding ect...) for the equipment and charge me a fair rate for your time. This is a free country however so if you want to charge otherwise please be my guest. I will not be giving you any of my money.


Chris


----------



## Sokoloff




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> snip...
> 
> 
> Well see, this is where I think some assumptions are not correct. Unless you are defining "street prices" as fly by night gray market outfits selling at below cost prices, I think most CI's (or at least a LOT of CI's) would be more than happy to meet that challenge...at least if we use the 20% number. From the CI's perspective I think their beef is that they give someone a quote and then someone wants to buy all the stuff on the Internet, but have the CI install it and be responsible for it, and even expect them to service it, without paying them hourly to do so.



I would say within 20% of "a local stocking retailer" (or however those price-match guarantees from other brick-and-mortar stores are worded) would not be cause for any reasonable customer (ie: anyone you would want to work with) to object. In the case where sales are internet-only or distributor-only (ie: not a commodity item), you have a wider margin to work with over the lowest cost retailer, but should probably restrain yourself to the same % markup over your cost as with the other goods, so that neither you or your customer has to think too hard about it.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think you might be amazed at what CI's encounter on an almost daily basis. I participate on an industry only board where this is talked about ALL the time.



I run an IT group for a top-100 e-tailer. As cross-training while we were planning the conversion of a call center over to a VoIP from POTS, I took calls on our 800 number for two days. It was eye-opening what people felt entitled to for $9.99 "I ordered slowest shipping by mistake and need it faster; could you upgrade that 20# package to 3-day for me? Sure, that'll be 19.95 extra; would you like to use the same card. If I wanted to pay that much, I'd have picked that during checkout; can't you just upgrade it and not charge me? No sir, but I can cancel the entire order for you if you like." etc etc. Other customers of course had legitimate issues, which was the point of the training and the call center, but some people just plain suck as customers. If I could discriminate (in the economics not the social-science sense of that word) them out pre-sales, I would be more than willing to do so.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here's a common example that was reported the other day. CI does install and hooks everything up and it all works good. Customer gets in piece he ordered over the Internet and tries to hook it up himself with wires CI left between plasma TV and wall. Can't get it to work and calls up CI. Has a **** fit when the CI tells him he will charge to come out and hook it up. Thinks it should be free because he can't get it to work. Such customers also CONSTANTLY think service calls should be free (within warranty period) regardless of what caused them and regardless of where they purchased the equipment, as long as they paid the CI to install it. You may say this is irrelevant to the conversation but when this is what CI's who aren't only doing high-end projects face EVERY day, perhaps you can see the problem of agreeing to install equipment and just charge hourly. It result in constant fights with customers. This is why a lot of CI's just want to make their margin so they can afford to build all that into their charges.



I don't think that's irrelevant to the discussion at all, but how to handle that call when it comes in comes down to the CI's call. What's at stake now is reputation and recommendations. If you "eat it" on a few service calls on a $50K install to keep the guy happy, that's a cost of buying goodwill. If you have a customer who turns out to be an angler, stop doing service calls for free (as the CI referenced did) and let his friends that he complains to roll their eyes when he bitches to them that you aren't his personal electronic butler for free. They've known him long enough to know that he's probably just being unreasonable again, *OR* they think like him, and you don't WANT them as customers either.


How much could you pad the parts costs on the stuff you *do* install to cover for all the possible gear that a customer will add-on later and want you to support?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now you may not like that, but think about this. Do people prefer to buy their cell phone or satellite receiver and pay for them and pay for their service separately? That is the business model you like. Transparent pricing as you call it. Joe Consumer typically doesn't want transparent pricing.



It drives me crazy that I can't easily buy the phone I want, unlocked, at take it to the network with the best service and pricing by buying a SIM card for it like all of Europe has been able to do for 10 years. I realize that I don't fit the profile of the bread-and-butter American consumer, but I think neither does your customer. I *prefer* to buy my phone and service separately, but all of the people who shouldn't be spending money on the latest flashy cell phone have seen to it that the cell company business models cater to their needs. (Good for the cell co's!)



QQQ, I think we agree on far more than we disagree, so much that I'm having a hard time finding any clear point of disagreement.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> If you charge $100+ per hour I could scream "rip-off" because I can find it for muss less. If faterikcartman charges $250 an hour I can scream rip off because some very good attorney might charge less. But it would be ignorant for me to do that and certainly offensive to the persons whose rates are being called a rip-off.



QQQ,


Rip-off is not offensive by definition to me so we simply have a different subjective view point on that word (ie...Rip-off by defiinition has nothing to do with unethical stuff). I also dont think I have to walk on "egg shells" with words to express what I think about a price, I am talking about a product not a person.


I have no problem with you telling me that my rates are a rip-off. Im confident enough in my skill to know the value in my work and I dont worry about what others who dont want my service say. Maybe that is the difference between CIs and other professions. You guys get bent out of shape and down right personal anytime we start posting debating your value.


----------



## Mattman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CTay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Charge me your cost (All your costs shipping, holding ect...) for the equipment and charge me a fair rate for your time. This is a free country however so if you want to charge otherwise please be my guest. I will not be giving you any of my money.
> 
> 
> Chris



Sorry. As a businessman who is interested in being profitable, I would not be interested in any project in which my mark up is 0%. I'm sure that this seems like a great idea to you, but as someone who intends to continue to be in business for longer than five minutes I intend to make money on every aspect of my business.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> QQQ,
> 
> 
> Rip-off is not offensive by definition to me so we simply have a different subjective view point on that word (ie...Rip-off by defiinition has nothing to do with unethical stuff). I also dont think I have to walk on "egg shells" with words to express what I think about a price, I am talking about a product not a person.
> 
> 
> I have no problem with you telling me that my rates are a rip-off. Im confident enough in my skill to know the value in my work and I dont worry about what others who dont want my service say. Maybe that is the difference between CIs and other professions. You guys get bent out of shape and down right personal anytime we start posting debating your value.



Rip off is an offensive term to pretty much everyone else on the face of this earth. You tell me my rates are a rip off I am going to take offence to that and I will put money on it damn everyone else would...


Speaking of the service issues spoken about ealier. I had a client call me on Thursday afternoon telling me she bought a new TiVo and could not figure out how to hook it up so I needed to get out there right away so her grandaaughter could watch TV in that particular room. We have 2 clients moving in early next week, it is Sunday and I am off to work to make these deadlines, put in a whole day yesterday as well...


I could go on and on with examples like this...


----------



## Mattman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> QQQ,
> 
> 
> Maybe that is the difference between CIs and other professions. You guys get bent out of shape and down right personal anytime we start posting debating your value.



I would contend that nearly all professionals would get bent out of shape if the value that they bring to their work was constantly under attack. But this the AVS Forum so it is the CI profession that is always discussed and debated, not doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.


----------



## IVB

Had an interesting thought this morning after reading through several posts, i'm wondering if all the non-CI's have it all wrong.


In the end, the mfrs are doing what they are doing b/c it's their business and their call.

the CI's are doing what they're doing b/c it's their business and their call.


And, i think i'm actually quite happy about the status quo, b/c nature & I both abhor vaccums and have taken steps to fill it. One of the biggest value adds i've been told my "intro to HA" doc gives is slides 6->11, with a "why would you do this", "what does it look like", "how much time does it take", and "give me a complete parts list." Don't even need to use my software package, that stuff is relevant for everyone.


In the end, doing my tiny part to increase the reach/pie for the HA software market as the magic is revealed does give me comfort as it's a tiny ray of hope that the route i've chosen isn't going to go away and i won't be forced into buying anything from AMX/Crestron/C4.


There's pro's available to install CQC/ML, and given the transparency of that industry and the determined non-transparency by the big boys, it looks like the future is nothing but bright.


----------



## Sokoloff

And in the end, the customers are doing what they're doing because it's their money and their call.


Choice is a GREAT thing all around, and as long as everyone is happy doing what they're doing and getting the results they're getting: awesome; don't change a thing...


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CTay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) the reason that you don't buy cell phones or satellite service like that has nothing to do with how people prefer to see pricing. It has everything to do with making the cost sound less so that consumers think it is worth it to purchase very expensive services. If the actual price of the cell phone for instance was clear to the buying public I doubt you would see very many people walking around with new phones and their new two year contract. Companies are not confident enough in the value of their service so they attempt to hide the real cost. Sound familiar?



Well duh







. You seem to be missing that there is no contradiction between your statement above and my point that you were responding to, which is that Joe Consumer often does not respond very well to "transparent pricing". Companies do this because it is the buying model Joe Consumer *wants*. The fact that they get a LOT more business with this model confirms that. I don't think this is a perfect analogy BTW, but it is relevant.


I also don't think there is anything wrong with not wanting "transparent pricing" and as I noted earlier I often don't want it either. It seems to me that selling software for $100 to everyone and building 1 years worth of support calls in by spreading that cost across everyone versus selling it for $75 and charging everyone for support is neither right nor wrong. Free market will decide and in that instance because Joe Consumer prefers cheap he has chosen the $75 option, and the complains when he has to pay for the call







.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sokoloff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It drives me crazy that I can't easily buy the phone I want, unlocked, at take it to the network with the best service and pricing by buying a SIM card for it like all of Europe has been able to do for 10 years. I realize that I don't fit the profile of the bread-and-butter American consumer, but I think neither does your customer. I *prefer* to buy my phone and service separately, but all of the people who shouldn't be spending money on the latest flashy cell phone have seen to it that the cell company business models cater to their needs. (Good for the cell co's!)



OT, but Google tried to change some of our current system with their recent letter to the FCC, prior to their bidding on the frequencies that are going to become available. AT&T and Verizon's responses were laughable and offensive in their attempts to distort as was to be expected.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CTay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Charge me your cost (All your costs shipping, holding ect...) for the equipment and charge me a fair rate for your time. This is a free country however so if you want to charge otherwise please be my guest. I will not be giving you any of my money.



That's OK, I won't be wanting any of it, I avoid unreasonable customers like the plague. If you are referring to products the CI represents and provides directly, that's as unreasonable as thinking that Best Buy is going to sell you everything at cost. If the CI is/were obtaining equipment through a retail vendor that has already been marked up, that might be a reasonable expectation.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sokoloff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> QQQ, I think we agree on far more than we disagree, so much that I'm having a hard time finding any clear point of disagreement.



Same here.


----------



## nishan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But I think the answer to your question is obvious frankly. Sellers of ANYTHING are generally not in the habit of announcing to people what the product they are selling cost them
> 
> ...
> 
> However I suggest that knowing cost (as in your car example that I do not quote) does not really change the playing field that much at all. It's mainly psychological. Market forces still apply.



QQQ,

My point was a bit more subtle and goes to points others are making, including this talk of "transparent pricing."


Again, for almost everything we purchase in our day-to-day life, almost no one considers "cost". How much does that toothpaste really cost to make. No one cares for the simple reason that all those products are sold in an efficient market. There are a dozen different brands, a dozen stores which carry them, and all of them have prices on them. I am assured of getting a good deal.


Car deals are a bit different. Yes there is a sticker on the car, but except in certain conditions (e.g. trying to buy a prius), almost no one pays full sticker. So how much is that car really worth. Everyone pays a slightly different price. Well along came the internet, and suddenly invoice pricing is there to see, and more importantly sites will list what the average price the car should sell for in your locale. Consumers with this information will get a lower price, and there is empirical evidence to back up this point: Car price study 


So transparent pricing, in an economic sense, is the ability of a person to have access to complete and perfect information, i.e. know the pricing for a product at all firms selling the product. Obviously, perfection never exists, but that's the definition. So cell phone companies can wrap up whatever charges they want in a contract, they are there for all the world to see and evaluate, and you can compare contracts across phone models and across carriers.


So finally look at the home automation market. It goes to another extreme. Pricing is impossible to come by, and obtaining multiple quotes is a nightmare. How many control 4 or crestron companies will be in your area, especially if you don't live in a major city. This is the transparent pricing, I'm speaking of.


A consumer faced with this, is generally going to look at the one thing they can control, and that is equipment pricing. They'll look at the list of equipment see a price far above what they could obtain the equipment for and then wonder if they are truly getting their money's worth.


In no way am I arguing that they are not getting their money's worth. In fact I'm not really arguing.







A good CI like any good contractor is expensive, and worth the money. If you want quality you have to pay. On the other hand, one of my questions has always been why the HA market is so small. This is all the more puzzling, as when someone sees a HA setup, they would love to have it too.


I can't help but wonder if the inaccessibility of pricing plays a role along with all the other aspects such as the average person's unfamiliarity with HA.


----------



## QQQ

nishan,


Do you consider the enterprise software market an efficient market that has transparent pricing?


----------



## CTay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's OK, I won't be wanting any of it, I avoid unreasonable customers like the plague. If you are referring to products the CI represents and provides directly, that's as unreasonable as thinking that Best Buy is going to sell you everything at cost. If the CI is/were obtaining equipment through a retail vendor that has already been marked up, that might be a reasonable expectation.



Apparently I misunderstand what the role of a CI really is. Are CI's retailers? You see, Best Buy is a retailer. They get their profit on the products they sell because for the most part that is all they do. If the value a CI brings to the table is just selling me a TV then why would I waste my time and money on a CI instead of just buying the TV cheaper from Best Buy?


My understanding was the value a CI brings to the table is their experience and expertise in combining products together to create a full system that accomplishes something I wanted to do. I based all my arguments on the idea that the CI's KNOWLEDGE is what is valuable and what sets them apart from the sales people at Best Buy. If I read your statement correctly you have to make money on the products you sell because the knowledge you sell isn't valuable enough?


If wanting to pay for the value someone brings me makes me unreasonable so be it. There is no value in selling me products at a markup that I can get cheaper some where else. There is value in telling me what products I should buy or setting up and programming said products.


This really isn't a hard concept...


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nishan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On the other hand, one of my questions has always been why the HA market is so small. This is all the more puzzling, as when someone sees a HA setup, they would love to have it too.
> 
> 
> I can't help but wonder if the inaccessibility of pricing plays a role along with all the other aspects such as the average person's unfamiliarity with HA.



Because as of yet it requires far too much work and expertise and is not nearly close to being plug and play on even the most basic level. As it becomes less so and prices decrease and it becomes easier to put together a package it will become more mainstream. MS is _trying_ to accomplish this on the A/V sde with products such as MCE. Companies like Crestron are _trying_ to do it with their Adagio line. Ditto on Niles with their excellent ICS system. Control4 is probably closest to trying to offer a product to bring HA mainstream.


But we've got years and years to go. Even using Dean's system as an example, it's WAY too complex to be anything but a highly specialized product.


----------



## CTay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mattman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry. As a businessman who is interested in being profitable, I would not be interested in any project in which my mark up is 0%. I'm sure that this seems like a great idea to you, but as someone who intends to continue to be in business for longer than five minutes I intend to make money on every aspect of my business.



You seem to miss the idea that with out products to integrate you have no one to sell your time to. You don't have to make money on every aspect of your business just as CPA's don't have to make money on every piece of paper we print out. I make money by selling my time and expertise. Anyone can print numbers on paper but if you want those numbers to mean something you have to pay someone who knows what they are doing. I'm not selling you paper, I'm selling you information.


Your doing the same. Your expertise is not in manufacturing products or distributing products or retailing products, it is in integrating products. That is where your value comes in. Sell me that and I'll buy. Sell me an overpriced TV and I won't.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CTay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Apparently I misunderstand what the role of a CI really is. Are CI's retailers? You see, Best Buy is a retailer. They get their profit on the products they sell because for the most part that is all they do. If the value a CI brings to the table is just selling me a TV then why would I waste my time and money on a CI instead of just buying the TV cheaper from Best Buy?
> 
> 
> My understanding was the value a CI brings to the table is their experience and expertise in combining products together to create a full system that accomplishes something I wanted to do. I based all my arguments on the idea that the CI's KNOWLEDGE is what is valuable and what sets them apart from the sales people at Best Buy. If I read your statement correctly you have to make money on the products you sell because the knowledge you sell isn't valuable enough?
> 
> 
> If wanting to pay for the value someone brings me makes me unreasonable so be it. There is no value in selling me products at a markup that I can get cheaper some where else. There is value in telling me what products I should buy or setting up and programming said products.
> 
> 
> This really isn't a hard concept...



Nor would it seem to be a hard concept to grasp that a CI IS in most instances also a reseller and is not going to sell you products as cost just because they are implementing them any more than Best Buy is going to install them for free just because they are selling them. Generally speaking products NEVER get sold at cost, SOMEONE makes a markup on them! Like it or not, the CI business is not a "pure" consulting model. There are a few CI design firms that work that way, in which case you'll just be buying the product through someone else, but SOMEONE is still going to be making a markup, you won't be getting it at cost direct from the manufacturer nor through a dealer who sells at such cost because if they did there would be no reason for them to be in business.


Many CI's also maintain showrooms, some small some large. It's also a major investment to sell any products such as Crestron etc. Cost plus might be feasible, cost plus 0 is not!


----------



## Mattman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CTay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You seem to miss the idea that with out products to integrate you have no one to sell your time to. You don't have to make money on every aspect of your business just as CPA's don't have to make money on every piece of paper we print out. I make money by selling my time and expertise. Anyone can print numbers on paper but if you want those numbers to mean something you have to pay someone who knows what they are doing. I'm not selling you paper, I'm selling you information.
> 
> 
> Your doing the same. Your expertise is not in manufacturing products or distributing products or retailing products, it is in integrating products. That is where your value comes in. Sell me that and I'll buy. Sell me an overpriced TV and I won't.



This comparison makes absolutely no sense. As a CI I do not charge for the paper that I print bills, designs, etc., on. However a CPA is selling a service ONLY. He is not selling any product.


I am going to make a profit on the product I sell AND the service that I provide. I understand that you, for some unfathomable reason, think that this is unfair. You and I would simply have to agree that we are not doing business together. I have a business model that works for me and for my clients. I know this to be true as they continue to refer me to their friends. They would not do this if they were not receiving a fair value for both the products and the services that they purchase from me.


The value that I provide means that I have a steady flow of clientele. I am fortunate in that I am not in a situation that forces me to be desperate enough to work with clients that demand that I unreasonably change my business model. If a potential client clearly is not interested in an arrangement that is fair for BOTH of us then I walk away.


If you expect for me to sell product at NO profit, then there is NO incentive for me to provide said product. I might as well just let you buy whatever you want and let you pay me time and materials to sit around reading instruction manuals and figuring out the quirks of the gear you chose. If necessary then you can pay for my transportation and expenses to visit the manufacturer for training on the gear that you chose. And then if it turns out that the gear that you chose is inappropriate or inadequate for the goals that you had then all that money will be wasted and we can start over. Sounds great, doesn't it.


----------



## the rick

CTay- would you expect said CI that sold you a product at its cost to provide service after the fact on the item if something breaks? Part of the incentive of getting a profit on product is the ability to take phone calls, call service centers, setup appointments etc. this number is going to vary wildly from client to client in terms of a cost/time investment. Without some profit on these products, you would end up with the gray market service level of "hands off" when their is an issue.


----------



## roddymcg

Somehow/somewhere we need to make up the costs of just doing business. Tool/training and litany of things we need to run a business. I plan on being in business for a while, I am not gonna pay for all these expenses from my profit on labor.


This would no longer be profit, and what is the point of running a business without profit??

I have no problem donating time and material to a worthy cause, a cheap client is not a worthy cause...


----------



## WRET AUDIO




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *faterikcartman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wret Audio, you started this thread complaining about wasting your day with people who nearly choked on your quote.
> 
> 
> Then days later you said you are more than happy to sit down with people and to figure out a quote.
> 
> 
> To me, it sounds like you are willing to say anything to justify yourself in this thread depending on what someone else is saying at the time.
> 
> 
> I think some folks are right about you being a little too full of yourself as well.
> 
> 
> My wife has Ivy League degrees in chemistry and literature and was admitted to a top ten medical school and top ten law school. I have a degree from the University of California having graduated with 236 units (enough for three degrees) including courses in computer programming. I was admitted to a top twenty law school. We're both now lawyers.
> 
> 
> With all due respect I find it near impossible to believe that given all the time I need to get up to speed that you would be able to design a better system than we could ourselves. Why? I'm fairly confident we're smarter than you.
> 
> 
> I admit that isn't the freindliest way to put it, but you apparently didn't understand when another poster tried to explain it in much more polite terms.
> 
> 
> I'm sure you felt confident making your assertion because companies like Crestron see to it that Joe DIY guy doesn't have easy access to documents like this:
> 
> http://www.crestron.com/downloads/pd...design_kit.pdf
> 
> 
> Obviously there are others but that is just an example.
> 
> 
> I think many people have started talking about transparency because they suspect they are paying more than they should. If you are charging what your services are worth they wonder what you are hiding -- I think they suspect you are trying to hide that your services are not worth what you are charging.
> 
> 
> Your responses here suggests that you are quite willing to tell them to pound sand. What impression do you think they get from that?
> 
> 
> Moreover, if the market has enough information it tends to reflect accurate pricing.
> 
> 
> What this could mean is that with enough information in the market your profit margins should be exactly what they derserve to be.
> 
> 
> In other words, if your profit margins are small, then perhaps it is because your services have a smaller value than you thought or hoped.
> 
> 
> It could also mean you simply fail to provide the market with enough information to value your services accurately.
> 
> 
> This concept, in different words, was, I believe, explained to you by another poster. You also basically told them to pound sand. I also explained at great length the value in providing the market with as much information as possible to gauge the value your bring to the table.
> 
> 
> I suspect many DIYers in the home automation arena don't do it simply because they love spending their time doing this stuff. It is probably because they cannot get enough information from the market to make an accurate assessment of pricing and performance.
> 
> 
> When they live in a house of standard construction for an area and they call up and an installer cannot give them even the vaguest idea what some features might cost to install without a personal "consultation" at home, they likely figure that the installer has no experience doing these things in a home like his and/or just wants the person-to-person in-home sales pitch opportunity because his prices do not match the value he offers so that he needs to create the obligation often implicit in a personal meeting.
> 
> 
> You and maybe a few other installers have mentioned that certain kinds of customers who ask a lot of questions just aren't really the kind of customers you want anyway.
> 
> 
> First, as I've tried to state before, if you've got all the business you want, stop complaining.
> 
> 
> Second, the die-hard DIY guy was never going to be your customer so what do you lose providing more information?
> 
> 
> I assume you fear you will lose a customer who will turn into a DIY guy if you give them enough information.
> 
> 
> Well doesn't that say something about the value of your services?
> 
> 
> On the other hand, I suspect you would actually gain customers. Many, like me, have a good sense of what their time is worth. If you can provide them with enough information to justify why it wouldn't be worth their time, but is worth paying for yours, I think they'll be more willing to hire you.
> 
> 
> Moreover, once you give them an idea of what they are looking at without any invasive home visit, they can have the opportunity to think about it and evaluate it so that they feel comfortable about inviting you over for a personal consultation that should waste less of the time both of you assuredly find valuable.
> 
> 
> You may worry that he will take that price and shop it and get a lower price. Well that might tell us one of the following:
> 
> 
> First, they get a lower price for an apples to road apples comparision between two dissimilar systems -- which reflects a failure on your part to explain the benefits of your system recommendation and the problems inherent in the lower cost alternatives.
> 
> 
> Second, you failed to find the nexus between what the customer wants and what he wants to pay so that you missed the chance to sell a lower cost, lower performance system. It may be that you don't want the headaches of call-backs inherent in lower cost systems, or perhaps you want to address a different part of the market. Regardless, no one builds and installs lower cost systems without making money on them so there must be profit there somewhere. You, of course, can determine whether getting a piece of that profit is in your business interest.
> 
> 
> Third, you are mistaken regarding what your services are worth and comparable alternatives are available at a lower price.
> 
> 
> If you refuse to provide any information there may be other installers who are willing to provide the information that allows the customer to do a cost-benefit analysis and who, as a result, will never give you a chance.
> 
> 
> It may also be that they just decide that their own time is worth less so that they should just DIY -- you lose nothing providing these people information and potentially save a lot of wasted time on them.
> 
> 
> When you just tell people that they couldn't do as good a job as you can and that the only price that matters is the "installed price" I think you are not only insulting people who might run circles around you, but making a mistake as well.
> 
> 
> Even a lawyer will give you an itemized contract showing how much you will pay for each copy, each fax, each court reporter, each videographer, each hour of a paralegal's time, each hour of secretarial time, and each hour of the attorney's time -- broken down in six to fifteen minute intervals. I suspect there are fewer people who can successfully DIY an attorney's work than HA.
> 
> 
> At the risk of repeating myself, if your business model is correct, you are likely getting paid just what you deserve.
> 
> 
> If you think that you are getting paid too little -- i.e., your profit margins are small -- something is wrong with your business model.
> 
> 
> Many folks endeavoured here to help tweak your business model to reflect the information rich society that the internet has created.
> 
> 
> So far, you have thumbed your nose at us -- and not just the DIYers you were never going to get as a customer anyway.
> 
> 
> If you can afford to do so, bully for you; though I wonder why you started this thread?
> 
> 
> I think you stated that you did so to let folks know your profit margins were, in reality, rather narrow, in contrast to what we may have thought.
> 
> 
> Why bother?
> 
> 
> Did you think people might take you at your word and go "oh, that's how it is!", "well I'll just pay what they're asking and not worry about whether or not I'm getting fleeced."
> 
> 
> I doubt I'm alone in reading your responses to mean exactly that.
> 
> 
> Nor do I think I'm alone in thinking that such a belief is crazy.
> 
> 
> Let me conclude by explaining in simple terms some sentiments echoed above:
> 
> 
> Any of us can easily order a comparable model tv, projector, or audio unit, either online or at a local brick and mortar. As a result, we are going to be insulted if you pad the price because you are trying to charge for something we can do ourselves. While you may have gotten away with this for years, should not suggest to you that you can continue to do so as more and more people become internet savvy.
> 
> 
> We may or may not be able to do what you do -- given enough time. Even if we could, you should make it your job to explain why we shouldn't want to bother. Explain, for example, how wives tend to flip out when there are holes cut into the wall for weeks because you have a day job, or the system isn't up and running for six months or more because you've never programmed a computer.
> 
> 
> When you can't tell us over the phone, even only in rough approximation, what it would cost to do certain things in a house like ours, you sound like you lack experience working on homes like ours, you really have no clue because you lack experience, or you do know but are ashamed to tell us because it is so freaking outrageous that you need to bamboozle us in a person-to-person meeting. Make it part of your job to have flow charts prepared to have a rough idea of certain costs over the phone so we can have an idea what we're in for before you come over and waste the time of both of us.
> 
> 
> When you are too embarrassed, ashamed, or simply unwilling, to state how much you charge for your time and estimate how much time you'll take, we can't help but suspect you really aren't worth that -- because even you lack the nerve to stand behind it! This ties in with the padding of hardware prices noted above. Charge us the market rate for the hardware and the market rate for your time. Make it part of your job to justify the value of your time and have a good sales-pitch/honest explanation at the ready. Trying to convince us your time is cheap while padding the prices of the items we can cross reference is only going to make us feel like you are ripping us off. There are only so many wealthy people who can be fooled like that and it becomes harder and harder as more people get internet savvy. You are, in my opinion, continuing that business model on borrowed time.
> 
> 
> I'm sure I could go on, but I've got to run.



Thank you for all your input.

I can't seem to find any words to reply that aren't polite so I guess if I can't say anything nice I won't say anything at all.

This thread has become exausting and mostly rediculous.

I wish you all the best in your DIY projects.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wish you all the best in your DIY projects.



and I wish you the best in your CI projects...

as far as pricing goes, why should CI's be 'transparent'? the only thing that would happen then is everyone would just start nit picking away at their pricing...

CI's aren't just selling their service, they are also selling a product, why focus on just one part of that anyway? or put another way, just pretend that the full cost that they quote you is their labor cost, and they are throwing the equipment in for free, would that make people feel better? beside, I really doubt DIY is really any cheaper for a functionally equivalent setup, you will spend a lot more time to get it right, even if you get some really great deals on ebay, unless you don't value your time, I am sure the end 'cost' for DIY will be much higher then for a good CI... come to think of it, if you really don't value your time, I could use some free tax/legal/programing/etc work done










I really doubt there is anything about their pricing model that is holding back home automation, it is far more likely that it is home automation that is sustaining their pricing model... if you want HA adoption to pick up, you are just going to have to wait until you can go to Best Buy, buy a bunch of stuff that all has an Ethernet port on it with some form of Super UPnP built in, and then come home and plug it in and have it set itself up... kind of like a HA version of Sonos... that would be cool, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it...


but I am just sitting at work a bit bored, so these could conceivably just be pointless ramblings of a disturbed mind... I wouldn't take them too seriously... I usually don't...

enjoy your day...


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thank you for all your input.
> 
> I can't seem to find any words to reply that aren't polite so I guess if I can't say anything nice I won't say anything at all.
> 
> This thread has become exausting and mostly rediculous.
> 
> I wish you all the best in your DIY projects.



Wret,


Just curious if you feel you've gotten any useful input from the non-CI's in this thread? Yes? No? A little? A lot?


----------



## WRET AUDIO

QQQ,


It has been informative. I understand where most everyone here is coming from. I have been in their shoes a few times when I have hired contractors to do work at my house. You always have a few thoughts in the back your head wondering if you have made the right decision on contractors, is all this going to turn out just like I hope, am I paying to much etc.

I have tried several different approaches with new customers to try to find some perfect formula and to date I have not. There is always a struggle in my mind about how much consult and design time to invest up front. I truely would like to do more, but the economics for my business in my market make that difficult.

I am sure other small business owners struggle with some of the same issues with their sales approaches and in dealing with customers. Most customers are great to deal with. There are a few that are quite the opposite, but thats true in any business.

I am sure there have been some bad CI's out there doing some things that give us a bad reputation, but hopefully they won't be in business for long. The good one's should rise to the top and hopefully we are all on our way up.


----------



## WRET AUDIO

I am starting to think that this dead horse isn't going to get up no matter how hard I beat it.


----------



## robertmee

Any ambitions I had of expanding my business into the home market has been dashed....I think I'll stick with manufacturing







True, I mess up and machinery could kill somebody or waste thousands of dollars in lost production or scrap, but it certainly seems like my job is easier


----------



## WRET AUDIO

I am right there with you.


I mainly work on commercial A/V, but we keep getting more and more requests for residential work so I now have a growing residential market to deal with. I can surely see how someone could decide they would rather stay out of it.


----------



## IVB

The one good thing for me about this thread is that it give me a little extra incentive to sign up to schlep to EHX in Long Beach this year, sign up for some classes, and see what there is. There must be some path here other than CI or manufacturer, but i'll be damned if I can figure out a way to make $$ at HA/HT without just stepping into the middle of a hornets nest.


Although, there's likely no way that I'd give up my cushy corporate job where I get harshed on by CxO's all day


----------



## bathurstix

I would expect,as a customer, to pay a separate design fee. In fact I am an end user and the integrator that I am using separately stated fees for design, wiring, equipment, installation and programming. I am a professional-a lawyer-and I spend time working up budgets, case analysis, etc which is similiar to your working up a quote. I do not charge for working up an estimate, as I presume you do not charge for listening to a potential customer and working up an estimate. But when you go beyond and design a detailed system, you should be compensated. By the way I paid a design fee which was in 5 figures and I am now paying for installation of structured wiring. Good luck in the future.


----------



## AnthonyZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *faterikcartman* /forum/post/11210556
> 
> 
> I think some folks are right about you being a little too full of yourself as well.
> 
> 
> My wife has Ivy League degrees in chemistry and literature and was admitted to a top ten medical school and top ten law school. I have a degree from the University of California having graduated with 236 units (enough for three degrees) including courses in computer programming. I was admitted to a top twenty law school. We're both now lawyers.
> 
> 
> With all due respect I find it near impossible to believe that given all the time I need to get up to speed that you would be able to design a better system than we could ourselves. Why? I'm fairly confident we're smarter than you.
> 
> 
> I admit that isn't the freindliest way to put it, but .



Without question, you have fallen into a category of people that I typically refer to as scum. There is such a level of insecurity expressed in this rambling diatribe that I hardly know where to begin but, suffice it to say that those who equate education with intelligence are STUPID. There is little to no relevance between the two. To begin by stating that WRET is full of himself and then continue with how your education, impressive or not, somehow means you're "smarter" than he is clearly shows that you struggle with insecurity at best and self loathing at worst.


Other than the referenced post, this has been a useful and entertaining thread.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> you have fallen into a category of people that I typically refer to as scum.



That would be well educated scum to you though!!


----------



## penngray

The thread is back from the dead.


Honestly I think the CIs (in the sub $1 mil house Market) will have it tougher ever year.


1. Plug and play architecture.

2. Information about Audio/video online is HUGE

3. Its getting easier to DIY everyday because more companies are creating simple ways to do HA



We pay money for lawyers only because it takes too long for us too learn a specific law. The same can be said about Dentists and Doctors, they have expertise and tools unavailable to us. Although more people do diagnosis (using the web) for simple things like rashes, colds and so on keeping the trips to the doctor's office down (atleast I would hope people would!).

The true question I had last year when I received all my quotes for HA stuff was simply this.....

*What can a CI do that I can not do?
*

Once I found CQC the only answer I could even think off was they honestly do a better cable/equipment/closet management job, I have seen enough pics to know that a CI would make my closet look much nicer.


Is it worth the money to me for just that?


Nope, if they can not bring something to the table that I couldnt do myself (yes I could make it cleaner, just takes time). They can not even offer cheaper prices on the same equipment I buy online, heck their prices on the same products are insanely high to me. How can they really compete??


Note: Now this isnt for anyone, some people never have the time for this stuff.


----------



## Audio Atmosphere

I came up with a semi decent system for weeding out the losers.. I paid alot of money for D-Tools software which is a bidding program and then you need to invest weeks of your own time making the data in it correct etc.. To invest all that and then an hr or two of your time to get nickel and dimed is very annoying



When i meet with a client we go over the plans and VERBALLY i throw out some figures. i am usually really close with in 5K or so.. If they are fine with the figures i then take the time to break it down. I tell them upfront. I may cost more money than other dealers for specific parts etc. I show them current homes and pictures of wiring and work of jobs. Our wiring jobs are perfect. If they are not fine with this then they are not the type of customer you want. Anyone who promises you the world in referals is lying. Ive learned the hard way how to read people and now how to deal with people who pay slow. Its an interesting learning process and really its funny to see what type of losers are really out there.


semi back to the subject at hand i charge a 500-1000 dollar design fee if they want my to do some of hte cool D-Tools stuff with the plans etc ( in reality it makes it easier for your installers to do the work ) and a 250-500 dollar fee for just a bid ( this gets put in the project total )


In the end you are going to waste your time doing some bids but take each person into consideration and apply your experiences with them to new people and youll start to see how to gauge the type of person they are.


PS. you will ALWAYS have other dealers who may get a customer to give them your bid and they will try to beat it by 5 or 10% and say you designed it wrong or did this and that blah blah blah.. Its pathetic but also something you may run into some time. Its sad and lame but thats how the business goes sometimes.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/11979504
> 
> 
> The thread is back from the dead.
> 
> 
> Honestly I think the CIs (in the sub $1 mil house Market) will have it tougher ever year.
> 
> 
> 1. Plug and play architecture.
> 
> 2. Information about Audio/video online is HUGE
> 
> 3. Its getting easier to DIY everyday because more companies are creating simple ways to do HA
> 
> 
> 
> We pay money for lawyers only because it takes too long for us too learn a specific law. The same can be said about Dentists and Doctors, they have expertise and tools unavailable to us. Although more people do diagnosis (using the web) for simple things like rashes, colds and so on keeping the trips to the doctor's office down (atleast I would hope people would!).
> 
> The true question I had last year when I received all my quotes for HA stuff was simply this.....
> 
> *What can a CI do that I can not do?
> *
> 
> Once I found CQC the only answer I could even think off was they honestly do a better cable/equipment/closet management job, I have seen enough pics to know that a CI would make my closet look much nicer.
> 
> 
> Is it worth the money to me for just that?
> 
> 
> Nope, if they can not bring something to the table that I couldnt do myself (yes I could make it cleaner, just takes time). They can not even offer cheaper prices on the same equipment I buy online, heck their prices on the same products are insanely high to me. How can they really compete??
> 
> 
> Note: Now this isnt for anyone, some people never have the time for this stuff.



The DIY should not be a CI's target market... if he wants to make a living.


Lawyers, doctors, and dentists are...


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/11979504
> 
> 
> What can a CI do that I can not do?
> 
> 
> Once I found CQC *the only answer I could even think of* was they honestly do a better cable/equipment/closet management job, I have seen enough pics to know that a CI would make my closet look much nicer.



I bolded the relevant part of your comment.


The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
_Bertrand Russell_


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/11985406
> 
> 
> I bolded the relevant part of your comment.
> 
> 
> The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
> _Bertrand Russell_



When a man is wrapped up in himself, he makes a pretty small package.

- John Ruskin


woo hoo, I can relevantly quote some old dead guy too...


----------



## AnthonyZ

I'm fairly certan that FrankenCartman (or whatever his sig is) suffers from a "pretty small package" issue...


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AnthonyZ* /forum/post/11993476
> 
> 
> I'm fairly certan that FrankenCartman (or whatever his sig is) suffers from a "pretty small package" issue...



that's the great thing about quoting old dead people... you can apply it to almost anything or anyone, they are almost like statistics...










here are more semi-relevant quotes from an old dead guy that could apply to anyone here...



> Quote:
> Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams
> 
> 
> He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams
> 
> 
> If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a non-working cat. - Douglas Adams


----------



## QQQ

Confucius say man on Internet forum named Somewhatlost not find end of the Internet.


----------



## dmoeller17




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/10929890
> 
> 
> For those out there that have posted recently about the "high" margins of home automation let me tell you what just happened to me again.
> 
> 
> I have spent four full days on a home automation design with complete home lighting, A/V, and thermostat control control. I walked through the home with the customer, designed a system as per their input. The customer insisted on Crestron control which is a great and maybe the only way to do all of what they wanted. I put together an estimate which ended up at $150K. The customer tells me that is more than they wanted to spend. I redesigned it leaving all the functions they really needed and wanted. Re-submitted a new estimate that met their budget.
> 
> Friday I get a call telling me they went with a different contractor that had better prices! Come to find out the other contractor is putting in an IR based control system which I can't imagine could control all this well. So after all the time I spent on this, designing a system per the customer input, putting in the control system they insisted on, I have nothing to show for it. I might has well have been on vacation last week!
> 
> 
> You gotta love this business!




i work in finance, asset management, and I can verify that happens in our business and all businesses for that matter. lucky for me I've built up a good base for myself and only deal with clients that have certain dollar amounts to invest and if they don't want to pay the fee I tell them to go somewhere else. I have even told clients to transfer their money out of my company for one reason or another.


but in the beginning I was begging for business


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> I bolded the relevant part of your comment.
> 
> 
> The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.




I guess I can post this, I can do your job QQQ







Im not sure you can do mine......


hows that for being honest and throwing it back in your face


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12068058
> 
> 
> I guess I can post this, I can do your job QQQ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im not sure you can do mine......
> 
> 
> hows that for being honest and throwing it back in your face



Then why would you have a real job if this were so easy??


----------



## strange_brew

I must say, this has been one of the more interesting threads I've followed on AVS.


I've often thought (and been encouraged by family/friends - excluding my wife of course







) about getting into this business. And I've recently been looking at an HA system for our home as a "buyer" and have had some CI's in to give me quotes. So its been interesting to look at the issue from both sides.


Here are some observations - definitely not an expert opinion, but FWIW:


With respect to this type of subject, it seems to me there are 5 categories of people:


1. Those who have the money, but don't want HA solutions, don't value them, and won't buy them, period. A Harmony remote is about as far as these people go.


2. People who are interested, but don't have anywhere near the budget for someone else to install a system for them (i.e., less than $10k). They either go without or, if DIY inclined, cobble together what they can with the resources they have


3. People who are interested, have the money, but are very DIY-inclined and believe that they could invest their own time in learning how to install the system if they can get the components. These are the people who actually enjoy the process of learning about this stuff.


4. People who are interested, have the money, will spend it, and just want it done - they are willing to pay for someone else to do it and will absorb the "big numbers"


5. People who are "somewhat" interested, have the money, don't want to DIY, but aren't willing to spend anywhere near what a full "Crestron-esque" solution would cost.


Obviously the key market for a CI is #4. And AVS is heavily populated with #3's (and 2's to some extent), so that is where I think some of the opinions are coming from. Number #3's (and I'm among them) will never value a CI's expertise as much as the #4's - rightly or wrongly. Discussions between CI's and #3's aren't going to go anywhere but in circles.


I live in one of the wealthier areas around Toronto and I have lots of neighbors that make gobs of money ($300k+) and live in $1M+ houses. Since I have been thinking about this from a business standpoint, I've been subtly trying to find out how many people would be willing spend money on an HA solution. I figure our area would be attractive from a CI standpoint. But what I've found is that most people fit into category #1. They think its cool, don't get me wrong, but they would never spend money on it. There are also a fair number of #5's - they are probably good up to about $15k-$20k, then forget it. But so far I have found nobody who fits into category #4 - maybe some of the #5's could be converted, but my conclusion is that the market is extremely small and limited to the extremely wealthy. And there simply aren't that many of those around.


Again, these are just my highly unscientific observations. Hat's off to you CI's who are making it work - especially if you're exclusively residential. It seems to me to be an incredibly tough business to find a market for, and make money in.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Then why would you have a real job if this were so easy??



I post more on here than I work







and I golf way too much according too my wife. Why work hard










Honestly, I dont think being a CI would pay enough compared to my current setup.


----------



## fletch999




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12081770
> 
> 
> Honestly, I dont think being a CI would pay enough compared to my current setup.



Especially if you were the least expensive CI in history.


----------



## maddogmc

strange_brew,


Excellent observations on your marketplace. I think your observations generally hold true everyplace but I wonder how "old" versus "young" money plays into the buying equation. I would think the "young" money, people that have grown up in the computer age, would be more comfortable with automation systems and spending the rrequired money on them.


----------



## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maddogmc* /forum/post/12086813
> 
> 
> strange_brew,
> 
> 
> Excellent observations on your marketplace. I think your observations generally hold true everyplace but I wonder how "old" versus "young" money plays into the buying equation. I would think the "young" money, people that have grown up in the computer age, would be more comfortable with automation systems and spending the rrequired money on them.



I agree, and that's why I thought my area would be a good barometer - it is definitely a "young" money area. The age range is probably 35-50 and most people are successful professionals or business owners with young families. But I would say CI's would have a very tough time here with anything over a $15k install.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/12087316
> 
> 
> But I would say CI's would have a very tough time here with anything over a $15k install.



New or existing construction? I would think new construction would be a much easier sell since the buyer could wrap up any HA goodies in their mortgage. ie $10K in cash can get them $50K worth of stuff at 20% down. Whereas existing construction owners would have to pay the entire cost out-of-pocket.


Of course, this model goes away once you pass a certain income/wealth level.


----------



## roddymcg

Remember there is a difference between doing a set up for youself/and or friends and running a successful business. Then you get a couple of employees, they then depend on you to keep a roof over there head and food on the table.


I can easily say that if I were in the job market I would be comfortable that one guy could feed me. Not so much with another...


Getting a bunch of used product from e-bay is not a way to start/run a business...


----------



## ATOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/12081240
> 
> 
> ... excluding my wife of course...



I only have one thing to say here...

*

LISTEN TO HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## SBSmarthomes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/12081240
> 
> 
> With respect to this type of subject, it seems to me there are 5 categories of people:
> 
> 
> 1. Those who have the money, but don't want HA solutions...
> 
> 2. People who are interested, but don't have anywhere near the budget...
> 
> 3. People who are interested, have the money, but are very DIY-inclined...
> 
> 4. People who are interested, have the money, will spend it, and just want it done ....
> 
> 5. People who are "somewhat" interested, have the money, don't want to DIY, but aren't willing to spend anywhere near what a full "Crestron-esque" solution would cost.
> 
> 
> ...There are also a fair number of #5's - they are probably good up to about $15k-$20k, then forget it. But so far I have found nobody who fits into category #4 - maybe some of the #5's could be converted, but my conclusion is that the market is extremely small and limited to the extremely wealthy. And there simply aren't that many of those around.
> 
> 
> Again, these are just my highly unscientific observations. Hat's off to you CI's who are making it work - especially if you're exclusively residential. It seems to me to be an incredibly tough business to find a market for, and make money in.



Hi strange_brew,


I've kept an eye on this thread, but refrained from jumping in until your post struck a cord. My bread and butter are your "#5 customers". People with the money to spend whatever they want, but people who just don't have a huge interest in the technology so are looking for something that to them provides more value that AMX & Crestron.


This is a wealthy area where fixer-upper starter homes cost $1M+ so may be a little different market than you're in? Most of the new construction I work in is $2-$7M homes and the majority of the jobs are in the $30-$70k range with a few larger, plus a number of smaller jobs ($8-20k).


The majority (but not all) of my customers are 55+ years old with little technical knowledge... most have a computer that they use for basic internet & email, but several don't even own a PC! These are the types of customer that don't blink at spending $250K for flooring or window treatments, but don't have any interest in putting touch-screens in every room!


I think I've found a niche here doing custom work using lower-end gear than AMX & Crestron. There are a couple shops in this area that fill that need, plus a handful of shops that do lower-end work (hanging screens, surround sound, etc.) For you and the others thinking about making a go at this for a living, I did just that a couple years ago and couldn't be happier. Even in this market, I make less than half of what I did in my previous corporate gig but have never looked back.


I know all the CI's whine about the long hours, stress and low pay, but for me, the only thing that rings true (very true) is the low pay. I work far fewer hours than I have for the last 10-12 years in corporate life and my stress level is a fraction of what it used to be at my previous positions. For me, a client calling on a Saturday night because they are entertaining and the speakers on the terrace aren't working is really no-big-deal compared to my previous responsibilities!


Cheers,

Paul


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Especially if you were the least expensive CI in history




hehe, too true!!!







When I was pricing out stuff and thinking about it as a business there was one important fact, I love making money so low margins would suck and there isnt enough volume to offset that!


----------



## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SBSmarthomes* /forum/post/12090870
> 
> 
> People with the money to spend whatever they want, but people who just don't have a huge interest in the technology so are looking for something that to them provides more value that AMX & Crestron.



That is exactly why I think Control4 will be so successful. I think they have hit the market sweet-spot bang on. From the people I have informally polled, I think a number of them could be convinced of the value that a small to mid-sized C4 system would bring. But Crestron/AMX is just a non-starter here. And these are people with a lot of disposable income. They could definitely afford Crestron if they want to - they just can't compute the value equation.


And you're right about the reno / new construction. That is obviously the best time to sell a system. The new homes around us are going in the 1.5 range. My neighbor is the sales agent and I've talked with him about it as well. His view is that, compared to other upgrades (granite, custom kitchen, jacuzzi, etc...) that the HA system just doesn't rank very high. But something in the $10-$20 range might be workable - again, the C4 sweet-spot.


Its great to hear that you've found a niche and, more importantly, are very happy doing it. That's what matters at the end of the day.


----------



## AnthonyZ

Just thought that I'd throw in the fact that the VAST majority of the work I do is retrofit directly with the homeowner. About an even balance over the last 2 years between systems integration and straight A/V. My point is just to state that after 6 years in business for myself, I can say with full confidence that the new construction market is not the only answer. I do work with a few custom builders but it only amounts to approx. 3-4 prewires a year. I do quite a bit of work for new dealers and I'm not afraid of attic work. It helps keep me humble and I look like a hero at the end of the day. When other dealers come in and say, "Wiring that ________ device is impossible.", I swoop in and apply liberal doses of educated, experienced stubborness.


----------



## lkosova

Hi,


I did not read ther entire thread but I think I get the jist of it. One thing I am not hearing here is selling yourself. Selling your expertise, knowledge and experience. In a couple of years Walmart is planning on selling flatpanels for like $400 from known manufactors for larger panels. So the profit of that is gone and it is basically gone now but you have the knowledge to know what mounts work good, what power conditioner to use and how to program it for the customer. When someone wants to buy an internet one great. I will charge to put it up and for the mount I deem neccesary but will not program it for them. This is a paid service that I "might" just throw in if they just buy it from me. It is just easier and makes the customer happier knowing when they have a tv on the wall that it will work with their cable box. Then there is that remote thing. I explain to them that if they buy from me I will do basic programming but if they buy it themselves it is a paid service. There is now value to my service not just price.


I am a doctor (examples of being wealthy is limited by insurance companies. I can charge a million dollars for something but if the insurance company is only going to pay $52.55 that is all I get),and plus have an automation company so I see both sides of this. Some people want to save money and some will just sign and you design.


I am like a interior decorator for a/v. I pick systems that will work within their proposed budget. I don't even know what those items will be till I talk with the customer but have a grouping of products that I know will work.


Does an interior decorater design for free then give that to the customer to bid out?????? NEVER. Untill we change the way we practice then your value to the customer will never be what it should be.


I like certain products like Triad speakers as an example. Not really that much more then other very good speakers. But I can predict how the house will sound with their inwalls and inceiling speakers. I also give them extra value and pay for the custom painting (not expensive and free on some models). This is what I am getting paid for!!!! I use a lossless music automation system. My customers hear a big difference between mp3 and wav....


I can't give them that same experience with cheaper speakers, period. I also have and live with the same system or close enough as the customer. They love buying what you have and own. Hard to sell something you don't know what the limitations are. If there are limitation I tell them upfront.


I use good wire that is testing and labled on every run. Does everyone really test and certifiy their own wire runs??? This is what they pay for. When they ask another company that is bidding against you , you will be suprised to what they tell the customer.


I make drawings and can't even quote till I see the electricians drawings. Most customers tell me that company A. B or C never asked to see electrical drawings. This is where MY experience goes a long way and again this is what they are paying for. At some point these little things add up in the customers mind in your favor.


I DON'T sell parts. What good is a RF repeater for a Radio Ra lighting system by itself. It just repeats but part of a SYSTEM it does it's magic!!!


I don't even spec names of products till there is signing and money on the table.


When someone says "the wiring is expensive" I always ask them do they really want inexpensive cheap wiring for their own house?????? Never had someone say yes. Wiring to do it correctly also takes time.


I really think though we put to much emphasis on time of work per hour. I try to be fair. If I am really learing a product and the time is getting out of hand I will just reduce it. Somethings we do really are not fair to the customer. You have a "slow " emplyoee...sometimes just having a price for doing a task is just better all the way around.


I am doing a house that they can't afford right now the touchpanels but I am wiring for them and making their computers virtual touchpanels for now. Sometimes this is better anyway.I would rather take something out of the project to give them something else.


Sell your value to them.


If they are not appreciating your value they will be the ones always calling and nagging you for something. Everyone wants to get something for free or better value. Maybe giving them something that they did not expect??? When you do their media room with flatpanel put in a inexpensive ir light control and program it for them so when the tv starts the lighting goes down.....I bet you will sell more lighting and programming that way......I really don't think the Big Box will give them that "WOW" factor now will they.


I usually tell people nicely that if they are expecting Big Box quality then I am not for them. This sets me apart.


I just set the vacation mode on a Radio Ra Chronos system that the customer did not know they where getting. They tell "all" the friends how cool it is when they go out of town that the lights go on automatically. Do you really think they care if this "extra" value was in their contract or not????? Giving more is what sets us apart!!!


I also ask for them to get "all" their bids before I give mine. Not always easy to do and they need to compare "apples to apples". Just because they have speakers in every room does not mean it will sound good.


I know what camera's work well with the system I use. I know what speakers, amps, cable, controls, hvac, lighting system, security will work everyday. Not just today.


This is what I get paid for!!!!


Sometimes saying no to a customer gains you value. This does not mean they can't afford your products.


If you are fighting over installing an internet product or you keep lowering your price/service what does this say about you????


Sell to the ones that get this. The others will come.


Sell products that you can't internet all their pricing also and you will avoid the internet thing to some extent.


I don't always win but don't lose many either.


Sorry to go on but I hope some of this was helpful,


Larry


----------



## Chris_006

I'm currently on page 3, but I must say, the best part of this thread is the lawyer who makes $500,000 income for his household, has the screen-name of "fatericcartman".


Continue on! Great read.


----------



## lkosova

Fatericcartman et al,


I don't buy it. I have had lawyers that will quote an idea of a price for service but never came close. I can do the free consult with Mcdermott, Will and Emory and get an idea of $300/hour and when I ask how many hours I get "Well, we won't know till we get started" etc etc. Also charging for phone calls, stamps, mailings, faxes, assistansts research....I wish as a doctor I can charge for research and the rest (most of us are controlled by insurance company charges so don't go there)!!! When I do a surgery I give and have the patients sign a financial estimate but sometimes less or more work is required.


You buy with your priorities. Your's or your wife's is not home automation. Plus I really feel you have not met the right person yet, and this is an important point.


It is really hard to say" I can give you this and that for this price". I use limited mid-to high end gear and this is the market I want to pursure. I just think to many of us try to cater to everyone and that is really not easy.


I also feel that many in this world are to embedded in the price structure. I will bend where I need to to get the customer what they want within reason. Geez, I do it in my medical office when a mother comes in and says that she can' afford something but she medically needs it. I have had laywers/accountants negotiate a price for something when I feel their price is to much. Never had anyone say no!!!


I think that if you are dealing with good people ,then you can do the above. When I give a break to someone like above I always get referrals and they(the refferrals )have never asked for a discount. I have done the same in kind.


This is why Fatercatman, you can not give blanket statements about this system or that system costs. Yes, It is very important to get a ballpark from the customer and design with in that budget. If you really don't want to spend the time researching different products then trust is a big factor. Whether someone is using my medical service or your legal service, trust is a huge issue.


I just have a customer now that wants the whole ball and wax but has a $15,000 budget. He is in the wiring phase. He has a big house. His wiring cost alone will eat up much of this budget. But I did not throw him aside,(my usual downpayment is like $45,000), since he seems to really want this but just bought a big house and is building it and I understand those uncertain costs. So I am designing something to give him some basic audio for now. As he is able he will add wireless lighting, intergration to security, etc etc etc.


What I usually find is that as this progresses, he will find the money somewhere is usually the case. As his "priorities" change plus he really is a really nice guy and I would rather try to help someone that is very nice to me then a jerk.


Even on my higher end installs $80,000 -$150,00 and up I will usually not put everything that "I" think I want to sell. I actually try to get those clients excellent deals on items I can. If I go to a training and get a discount on something they want. I call them and tell them and / or pass the savings on to them. They really appreiciate that. If it is something I want but need to buy two of them to get the dealership or better price it is a win-win when I call the person and say" if you buy this I can get a better price for you". Just being honest usually wins out with most people.


I would also look for automation systems that meet your budget. Look at Colorado VNet. I don't sell this but the company is starting to look good.


Also saying that you make $300/hour and you don't want someone wasting your time is silly. Do you really make $300/hour being at home???? Plus this is an insult. Just because someone does not make a certain amount per hour does not mean that they are worth less attention or self worth..........My market is in Chicago and multi-million dollars houses and self worth at your level and much higher is the norm. My own two kids go to a private school that is $17,000 each kid ,so I get it from that stand point. But I have found most automation professionals just that Professionals. I could fix most things in the house but still call the plumber when there is a problem with the plumbing that I can't seem to fix. That professionals time is worth it to me.


I once had a plumbing contractor show up in a Porche. I knew I was in trouble when he told me he made more money then his wife the Neurosurgeon!!!


To not waste some peoples time I have used the internet as a tool. I use www.gotomeeting.com and actually can show the customer some items and we can talk about price. I take control of your computer as you are in your underwear..... and you sit back , have a drink, and just watch your computer. It is very easy to show a wife a keypad style this way and the different options and discuss issues without feeling pressured.


I assume you are also looking at Crestron and AMX type of systems. As they are great you also pay ( I personally feel overpay) for the programming. This alone can be a huge part of the budget. Look at systems that are not so programming dependent.


As this is a large expense for you ,research the different automation companies. Don't tell me that you just walked into the Porchse dealer and said "I want the red one". I would assume, doing what you do for a living, that you researched it a bit and decided what features you wanted in the car.


I love the car analogy since I use this alot to bring things more real for the consumer. When I ask someone if they like the touchpanel in the car and they say"Oh, I could not live without that" It is easy to explain what a "touchpanel" for their house will do. Same for the rear camera that goes on when you backup. I get alot of "I really did not think I needed that but I use it everyday". Much easier to explain a front door , backyard and gargage camera that way!!! Same for the newer sound surround in the car once they have it they want it in their homes. Etc etc.


Also one might not want a full blown lighting system but wouldn't most want at least to have the outside lights times to go on at sunset and off in the morning. Would not most women want to have a control in the visor or gargage to turn on the outside lights and house lights (at a set level) so they don't have to search for keys and enter a dark house.I would think that with ones that travel alot having the lights automatically go on and off like you are at home would serve a purpose!!! Would not most guys want a all off button when leaving their house to turn all the lights off or an all off to turn off all the audio and lights on the first floor and basement from a button in their bedroom. Would it not be a good idea to look at a panel to see if you left the garage door open???? These are very functional and don't require a full blown system but once a consumer has it the next question is "can you add more light control and can you add three way light controls" etc. Again ,once they see the worth to their own life, their "priorities" change.


It is a huge benefit to "some" of my customers to be able to look at a touchpanel/computer/ tv and see who is at the front door and talk to them. To some they love the idea and functionality to unlock the front door so they don't have to walk 3-4 stories to answer and unlock the front door.


Some love to watch tv in the Jacuzzi like my wife/kids and some don't think this is a big deal. I personally like to rock out listening to music in the steam shower!!!


Find out what a "big deal" is to them and give them that.


Finally, Even though you might think that someone's charge for service is alot or not needed you will find out quickly that in this field of Automation etc that the ones with experience are going to charge more just like your field. But, I have found out that the ones that have the experience in what you want can also save you time and money(time is money ,right???), in the long run.


Please don't take offense to anything I said and most is tounge in cheeck and hard to portray that here. I am just trying to be helpful.


All the best,


Larry


----------



## jojosdad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/12081240
> 
> 
> 1. Those who have the money, but don't want HA solutions, don't value them, and won't buy them, period. A Harmony remote is about as far as these people go.
> 
> 
> 2. People who are interested, but don't have anywhere near the budget for someone else to install a system for them (i.e., less than $10k). They either go without or, if DIY inclined, cobble together what they can with the resources they have
> 
> 
> 3. People who are interested, have the money, but are very DIY-inclined and believe that they could invest their own time in learning how to install the system if they can get the components. These are the people who actually enjoy the process of learning about this stuff.
> 
> 
> 4. People who are interested, have the money, will spend it, and just want it done - they are willing to pay for someone else to do it and will absorb the "big numbers"
> 
> 
> 5. People who are "somewhat" interested, have the money, don't want to DIY, but aren't willing to spend anywhere near what a full "Crestron-esque" solution would cost.
> 
> 
> Obviously the key market for a CI is #4. And AVS is heavily populated with #3's (and 2's to some extent), so that is where I think some of the opinions are coming from. Number #3's (and I'm among them) will never value a CI's expertise as much as the #4's - rightly or wrongly. Discussions between CI's and #3's aren't going to go anywhere but in circles.
> 
> 
> I live in one of the wealthier areas around Toronto and I have lots of neighbors that make gobs of money ($300k+) and live in $1M+ houses. Since I have been thinking about this from a business standpoint, I've been subtly trying to find out how many people would be willing spend money on an HA solution. I figure our area would be attractive from a CI standpoint. But what I've found is that most people fit into category #1. They think its cool, don't get me wrong, but they would never spend money on it. There are also a fair number of #5's - they are probably good up to about $15k-$20k, then forget it. But so far I have found nobody who fits into category #4 - maybe some of the #5's could be converted, but my conclusion is that the market is extremely small and limited to the extremely wealthy. And there simply aren't that many of those around.



Here's the perspective of a potential customer.


I also live in Toronto and earns about $300,000+. I am planning to purchase a home around $800,000 to $1 m and then renovate it $300,000 - $400,000. That is why I am reading this thread.


Unfortunately, what you would call a "relatively wealthy" neighbourhood is down right poor with the HA systems that people are talking about here. No wonder you don't find any #4's.


$50,000 - $150,000 HA are for homes at least $2 - 3m to $10m or more. Having a $50,000 master bathroom pays way more than $50,000 HA. A $150,000 kitchen makes much more sense. HA is basically a toy, something cool to have but does little to the value of your home. A $150,000 kitchen will least last me 10 years and increase the value of my home. I highly doubt anything that has "software" in last any length of time without a need for "upgrade". It only make sense to have $150,000 HA if you spend $3 -500,000 on your kitchen. I don't have enough money to know what a $500,000 kitchen looks like.


Whoever quoted a price of $150,000, I just want to make sure your customer's home is worth at least $3 to $5 mil. Or he/she has so much money that it doesn't matter. Or the quote includes a home theatre or something....


This is a serious niche market. Some of you CI's are getting provocative responses because I doubt the clientel you would be dealing with visit avsforum. There are too many DIY folks here, folks who check internet for specs or prices. You need clients who has so much money that even checking the internet is not worth their time, those who say I want the best looking plasma and just plunk down a pile of cash.


I thought I am a #5, maybe I should be a #1.


Ben


----------



## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jojosdad* /forum/post/12162622
> 
> 
> This is a serious niche market. Some of you CI's are getting provocative responses because I doubt the clientel you would be dealing with visit avsforum. There are too many DIY folks here, folks who check internet for specs or prices. You need clients who has so much money that even checking the internet is not worth their time, those who say I want the best looking plasma and just plunk down a pile of cash.



Agreed. And, again, that's why I think Control4 is going to be so successful - they hit the right part of the market.


----------



## lkosova

Please read any forum on Control 4 from their own dealers. With every company there is issues but you might want to research this further.


Larry


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Here's the perspective of a potential customer.
> 
> 
> I also live in Toronto and earns about $300,000+. I am planning to purchase a home around $800,000 to $1 m and then renovate it $300,000 - $400,000. That is why I am reading this thread.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, what you would call a "relatively wealthy" neighbourhood is down right poor with the HA systems that people are talking about here. No wonder you don't find any #4's.
> 
> 
> $50,000 - $150,000 HA are for homes at least $2 - 3m to $10m or more. Having a $50,000 master bathroom pays way more than $50,000 HA. A $150,000 kitchen makes much more sense. HA is basically a toy, something cool to have but does little to the value of your home. A $150,000 kitchen will least last me 10 years and increase the value of my home. I highly doubt anything that has "software" in last any length of time without a need for "upgrade". It only make sense to have $150,000 HA if you spend $3 -500,000 on your kitchen. I don't have enough money to know what a $500,000 kitchen looks like.
> 
> 
> Whoever quoted a price of $150,000, I just want to make sure your customer's home is worth at least $3 to $5 mil. Or he/she has so much money that it doesn't matter. Or the quote includes a home theatre or something....
> 
> 
> This is a serious niche market. Some of you CI's are getting provocative responses because I doubt the clientel you would be dealing with visit avsforum. There are too many DIY folks here, folks who check internet for specs or prices. You need clients who has so much money that even checking the internet is not worth their time, those who say I want the best looking plasma and just plunk down a pile of cash.
> 
> 
> I thought I am a #5, maybe I should be a #1.
> 
> 
> Ben



Great post, really sums up where Im at too but I built in Florida last year and atleast I can get 3800 sqft for 750K. You can't get much for 800K in Toronto anymore










OT: Are the leafs going to win sometime soon !?!


----------



## audiblesolutions




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jojosdad* /forum/post/12162622
> 
> 
> Here's the perspective of a potential customer.
> 
> 
> I also live in Toronto and earns about $300,000+. I am planning to purchase a home around $800,000 to $1 m and then renovate it $300,000 - $400,000. That is why I am reading this thread.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, what you would call a "relatively wealthy" neighbourhood is down right poor with the HA systems that people are talking about here. No wonder you don't find any #4's.
> 
> 
> $50,000 - $150,000 HA are for homes at least $2 - 3m to $10m or more. Having a $50,000 master bathroom pays way more than $50,000 HA. A $150,000 kitchen makes much more sense. HA is basically a toy, something cool to have but does little to the value of your home. A $150,000 kitchen will least last me 10 years and increase the value of my home. I highly doubt anything that has "software" in last any length of time without a need for "upgrade". It only make sense to have $150,000 HA if you spend $3 -500,000 on your kitchen. I don't have enough money to know what a $500,000 kitchen looks like.
> 
> 
> Whoever quoted a price of $150,000, I just want to make sure your customer's home is worth at least $3 to $5 mil. Or he/she has so much money that it doesn't matter. Or the quote includes a home theatre or something....
> 
> 
> This is a serious niche market. Some of you CI's are getting provocative responses because I doubt the clientel you would be dealing with visit avsforum. There are too many DIY folks here, folks who check internet for specs or prices. You need clients who has so much money that even checking the internet is not worth their time, those who say I want the best looking plasma and just plunk down a pile of cash.
> 
> 
> I thought I am a #5, maybe I should be a #1.
> 
> 
> Ben



Very legitemate points. But the new car you purchased lost half of its value the moment you drove it off of the lot. We sell toys, mostly for grown boys. It will not increase the resale value on your home ( though lighting control will have some utility, though nowhere what a walk-in closet, new custom kitchen or bath will ). But it is also somewhat more than a toy also. It is most certainly a luxury but making one's life easier, making the walls less cluttered and having fewer remotes and no equipment in sight also has an aesthetic appeal that may not provide a return on investment but will make your experience in your home more enjoyable. It is nice to listen to music in the shower. It is nice to have an attractive home. It is nice not to see any wires or to have cabinets housing gear in every room.


Depending on what you wish to do it does not have to cost 150k. But it might cost 60-80k and if you are looking at this as an investment and expecting a return on it you will be disappointed. If you think of it as part of your decorative budget you might see the other side of the picture. If you are one who has to have 200/yd carpet, faux painted walls, or furnature you also know you will not obtain any return on this investment. Sometimes you will pay for an extravegance because you think you deserve it. You want the look, the convenience and the simplicity that one of these systems provides. Not everything in life can be summed up by rational economic decisions or who would purchase coffee from Starbucks or purchase a beer in a "genleman's club?"


Alan


----------



## txredneckbud

We dont tell toys, we well security, convienience and piece of mind. We leave the "toys" to Best Buy and Microsoft.


----------



## bigpapa

I just read through the first 5 pages of this thread. Many posters made some good points (faterikcartmen, sololoff). But I have to say... how transparent do we have to be to satisfy your mistrust of us?


You're asking us, as CI's, to trust you by 'not hiding' our margins. There's a couple of assumptions here: margin is not profit, and we're not out to screw people. We're out to make a living. Coming out to your home might have more to do to size up a prospective project, not to just look at your watch to size you up for prospective fleecing. To be blunt, there's a lot of paranoia here. I'm a CI, not a therapist. I've a much better chance of satisfying a client who trusts me _than one who doesn't before I even start a project._


The point has been made that most clients or prospective clients here on AVS forums are more discerning, and that our other clients aren't or just don't care about it. Not a more untrue statement could be made. I get hammered all the time on our proposals. Most people assume we're making too much margin to begin with, or want some kind of deal for doing work just for them. I get price shopped on plasmas by billionaires. People question why they 'need all this project management or engineering time.' I tell them why. Is that not transparent?


We list out the price for components, then the price installed. Transparent enough?


Some sarcastic comments have been made, mostly in good nature, about clients W2's and clients telling us how to run our business. Thanks for the advice and good points made (not a sarcastic statement), but let's cut to the chase: the CI industry is not about to go to a 'consulting only' business model. It will not benefit CI's, not benefit most consumers, and won't cost any less money to consumers. It will only benefit the minority who don't trust CI's to begin with. That may sound crass, but it's the truth. It benefits too few for not much gain, if at all.


Keep in mind that what's good for the CI industry is good for the consumers. It's not a straight =/- equastion. Being 'good for the CI industry' does not mean 'screw the consumer.' It means healthy business practices that benefit the consumer and the CI both, so the CI industry delivers good product and value to the consumers for a fair price. CI's stay in business and develop clientele and expertise, clients get systems installed that work and are supported. We end up with less post on AVS saying "I've hired 3 different CI's and nothing works.' Nobody likes to see that. I'm pretty sure that moving to a consultant only business model will not rectify that, it might even make it worse, and I will gladly debate it.


I guarantee our SKU list is several times the size of a similarly financially scaled IT company running a 'consulting only' business model. We install many more differing systems than them (plus we install networking equipment!) How are we to realize our investment in learning and mastering all those differing equipment platforms, supporting that equipment, managing manufacturer resource? Just run up our labor to compensate? I thought that was a problem noted before: CI's are now to add margin to labor to cover their equipment costs for this business model, whereas before Sokoloff was afraid of us adding margin to equipment (or outright just selling more equipment) to cover our labor costs. It's the whole robbing Peter to pay Paul situation.


I guess we all just charge as much as software developers or IT guys, or even worse, those dastardly lawyers







I wonder how well that will go over on new construction projects, since right now our labor rates are similar to the other trades. Talk about people not understanding our industry, we'll really have a hard time selling our services then. It seems that many forget our business straddles two totally differing industries: the construction industry and the Consumer Electronics industry. Both equally screwy in their own right.


I have to run off and play some whack-fuk (golf). I'll read the remaining pages later with the same level of interest. I appreciate some of the great points made (faterik and sokoloff), but I have some disagreements with some of the points and inferences made. I really do value the feedback and enjoy the debate because it could help me connect with clients and give them what they want, enabling both of us to profit in the experience.


There have been many times that a client's perceptions has caused difficulty in making them satisfied clients. Instead of blaming them or me for no overcoming that obstacle, I'd like to be able to conquer that obstacle as best I can. But I'm not, I repeat not, going to tell you my margins unless you understand my business model. Many here understand business as a whole, some better than me, but not necessarily this business.


----------



## bigpapa

Read the whole thread. Not much has changed. It seems that many here think we should not make money on product, we should only make it on our time. That's wrong on many fronts. I won't go into them if nobody is here to debate.


People continually compare our product offerings to similar items on the internet. We are actually competitive to B&M store's pricing (especially if you add in their installation services). Just like the big box stores, margin is shrinking on displays. We're not getting rich selling displays.


We also don't have the convenience of just increasing our labor hours to make up for the loss of margin. Though we work directly for clients, we also work for or are managed by home builders and GC's. Our current labor rates are comparable to other trades. In most cases, our contracts and proposals are vetted out by the clients and their home builders. Nobody is getting ripped off.


I've had this same debate with a home builder who thinks that we rip people off because of our high margins (even though he didn't know exactly what they were, he had a propensity for taking our proposals and finding some of the same parts on the internet for less). He told me they work on a cost+ model, and they mark up all their material and bill out labor. BTW, he charged a lot more for carpentry than we charged for install. Anyway, I told him 15% was probably a good margin for lumber, nails, and 2x4's. They don't need any programming, have an almost non-existent failure rate out of the box, take very little skill to master.


So the point is that we assume the risk in a complete turn key installation. It costs a lot to do this for consumer and professional electronics. To move to a business model where I remove this risk and charge a client for every time I have to deal with equipment is asking for trouble. I suppose I could charge them every time I answer the phone, just like a lawyer or CPA, no?


I have to say again, there have been many good points made from some non-CI's. Many have no idea of what they are getting into, so let me tell you. A full nut installation for all systems that include HA, DA, displays w/ sources and learning remotes, communications, LAN, CATV/Satellite: $30 to $50 a sf. Of course you can spend less or more. We've had client's spend $100 a sf.


And anybody who thinks that our industry is going to get tough because of C4, nuts. The industry is going to explode. We've had plugnplay SW for a while, but assuming it will work with AV is a leap. It works OK (just OK) for cheap Logitec webcams and printers, but assuming it will work with displays, matrix switching DSP's, etc is a huge leap.


The funny thing about the home building market is that has converse influences on our industry. When houses are selling like hotcakes, there is a positive to CI since there are more houses built, but a negative in that the builder needs to do little to distinguish their product (like put in on-wall plasmas and DA systems). When the market is tight, there's less houses built (negative effect for CI's) but builders have to distinguish their homes from others (so they put in plasmas and DA systems to entice buyers).


This will change when all consumers demand the product in their home. TV cable and phone/LAN cabling isn't necessary for most building codes, but they are in every house. That will happen to HA and CI products when everybody knows what they are. PlugnPlay SW will be supplemental to this offering, but by and large there is nothing but growth in the industry over the next several years.


----------



## IVB

I've ignored this thread for a while, but as it keeps coming up I guess i'll give my 2 cents again, esp with this great point by bp. (aloha, btw, i'm currently in waikiki)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12587997
> 
> 
> ...I've had this same debate with a home builder who thinks that we rip people off because of our high margins (even though he didn't know exactly what they were, he had a propensity for taking our proposals and finding some of the same parts on the internet for less). He told me they work on a cost+ model, and they mark up all their material and bill out labor. BTW, he charged a lot more for carpentry than we charged for install. Anyway, I told him 15% was probably a good margin for lumber, nails, and 2x4's. They don't need any programming, have an almost non-existent failure rate out of the box, take very little skill to master.
> 
> ...



Excellent point, i'll tell you why that resonates with me after this next sentence. My opinion is unchanged for the life of this thread, although I admit to being naive a few years ago when I had no experience, and that is that this is a very immature field that takes far too much elbow grease to "master". I quote that b/c I find it hard to believe anyone can master anything when there's such a wide disparity in mfr's, hell even in quality control with a single vendor across multiple firmware revs of the same model.


So back to the lumber example, and why I love that. I have a 10' x 15' deck. A very nice deck. I was going to DIY it, cuz seriously, how hard is it to dig post holes every 4-6 feet, drive in 4x4's, lay down some joists & some floorboard, then stain it? What's that - 6 weekend days *max*, probably more like 3-4? But, work was a little tense, then I decided to host a picnic for my project team and basically ran out of time. I opted to hire out. The cost was initally supposed to be about $7K, final tally was a staggering $12K b/c we would upsell ourselves(remember, 10' x 15'). The "company" we used was an immigrant carpenter & his brother, and he promised he'd be onsite every day. 3 interesting things about that:

1) They used some 20year old punk kid who barely spoke english to do a lot of the grunt work.

2) Halfway through, I asked for an itemized bill, cuz I thought it was high. I got it. They estimated $6K in lumber, I looked around and estimated that I could have bought it from Home Depot for perhaps $2500 max.


Despite #1 & #2 above, I looked at the quality of the work they had done, and was seriously impressed. I mean that deck is rock solid, great craftsmanship, great attention to detail, they did this weird bendy-looking thing with the wood on my gate that wouldn't have even occurred to me and everyone compliments when they see it. To which, I said:

3) Screw it, write the check. Hell, I gave him a $250 tip, although I did make him promise to give the 20year old at least 50%. Sure, I could have DIY'ed it for $3K, but for a mere 4x I got something far far nicer than I could ever have done, and all I had to do was delay some other purchases. (oh, and DIY my wiring since I no longer had the cash







)


This whole industry is the same way - you may or may not understand the pricing, you may be some hoity toity dude making hundreds of thousands per year, but in the end the successful purchaser/purchasee relationship will be one where the homeowner can see and trust the CI. You're not going to look at the illegals hanging out in the HomeDepot parking lots and feel like they understand you & your goals - you're going to have to pay someone who's a lot more like you than him. And that guy isn't going to be willing to work for peanuts.


The second you think you've found someone who's willing to be totally transparent with you and looks like they're cheaper than average - run away as fast as you can. I know a lot of sales folks, and nearly every "transparent and cheap" one is someone who's just better at pulling the wool over your eyes than you are at realizing you're being fleeced. If you don't like that approach, then DIY it, and buy lots of Alka Seltzer cuz take it from me - finding hardware & software that reliably operates ain't as easy as you would think. In 5 years maybe, but absolutely not in Dec of 2007.


----------



## bigpapa

Aloha IVB! Great time to be in Hawaii, winter is awesome. I was just out there doing some XMas shopping, and looking at a project in Diamondhead where we may have to come in and finish. What a miserly job I have boo hoo.










I think I did miss the party, but this is still a relevant thread and subject. It did seem to fire up a bit when a CI implied that it was easier for him to do than most other people, to the point of offense of DIYers. Oh, that again. Instead of going there, let me go here.


I've been in this business just over 20 years. The more I learn, the more humility I have and the more I respect people who pull it off effectively. I don't know it all, and I don't know anybody who does. I know a few guys that know a lot (one's an actual EE), but we all have our weaknesses. The EE is not good in front of clients and designs systems that are too complicated. Could most here do what I do? Absolutely. Do it for 20 years. Many would probably do it better than me, some wouldn't. Nailing two pieces of wood together does not make you a carpenter, and likewise, surfing AVS does not make you a CI. I don't mean that as a taunt or to diminish many intelligent DIYers here, it's just a practical statement of fact.


Having said that, I'm fully confident that you'd not do much better than us in our regional markets. You could easily do worse. We're successful not because we charge exhorbinate margins, but because we execute our contracts and profit from relationships. Our focus and I think all CI's should think this way) is not to sell equipment. If we make mistakes, we make amends. We resist negotiating our margins, labor, (at least I do







) and doing work for free just so we can do more work. We've had some competitors go belly up lately: they did work for free, low balled jobs, would negotiate all those things. Was that good for the consumer that those competitors went out of business? I say no. They should have charged a little more and executed on their contracts better. They would still be in business and their clients would not have to find a new CI. Good for us, yes. Good for our industry and profession as a whole? No. I'm glad they went out of business because it was bad business, but it's not good for the profession.


One of my favorite examples of the ultimate end of price being the only factor is the airline industry. Tough business to make money in, no? Instead of sticking to a practical fare structure and delineating themselves through other things (like service and experience) they try to do it cheaper than each other. Of course they market themselves talking about how they are all better and cheaper, but it's BS. The consumer falls in line by polarizing to the cheapest price. Then the consumer complains about crappy food (if you get it at all), no leg room, bad service, delays, etc. The CI industry may not go there, but if we focus too much on cost and price, we short ourselves and our clients. I'm not in this business to save people money, I'm in it to provide solutions. Of course we can engineer projects with value involved: I've never been told to waste money nor given a blank checkbook. It just doesn't happen. This does not mean that a frugal client would not be happy with us: we provide value.


Part of the intent of this thread was to discuss how to get our message across to clients who don't understand our industry or technology. That, and the debate about us moving to 'transparent' pricing or a cost+ business model, are very intriguing. Since I produce proposals and designs and meet clients, this is a very interesting subject to me because the ultimate goal is to effectively communicate and connect with the client, providing them what they want (electronic systems) and providing me with what I want (being paid to design and install electronic systems). If I want the relationship to come to fruition, it's my responsibility to manage the process.


If my success depends on being able to negotiate pricing versus effectively delivering a product and an experience for a standard price, which one should I spend more time on? What is better for the client? I propose it's better for the client if I spend my efforts doing a good job, not trying to find ways to negotiate pricing better.


A popular quote of late amongst CI's: "Negotiating makes me appear greedy and my client appear cheap, and neither of us are flattered by that implication."


If I negotiate a better deal on one client, it's because the last one got the better of me. The whole Robbing Peter to Pay Paul thing again. But it seems that many are worried that I'm going to fleece them if I think I can... which leads me to wonder if they are paranoid wondering if I got fleeced on the last job and I'm going to try and make it up with them?


This industry is still very young, I'd say in it's early teens. Luckily we'll be coming of age just as HA and home media distribution really goes big time and becomes 'normal' for the mainstream, when it works solid and becomes affordable to all. We're on the cusp of that. Yet, I don't see it as blowing up over night riding on the back of Plug N Play SW so anybody can do it. Plug N Play SW (which is already in our industry on a very limited scale) won't become the primary programming platform unless the system is very basic. There's just too many parameters between differing technologies.


Aloha IVB.


----------



## AnthonyZ

Excellent work, BP. A very diplomatic, articulate position without stooping to the same kind of petty nonsense I'm known for. Well put.


Good to hear you're out there still as it seems we haven't heard a peep out of you in some time at RC.


----------



## IVB

yeah, bp, i'd agree with everything you posted. Glad life is good.


----------



## bigpapa

Thanks guys. Anthony, I still participate in forums, just haven't been to RC in a while. Still lurk from time to time.


Relevant to this discussion (especially comments about Walmart selling $400 flat panels and my comments about the airline industry):


Fujitsu is not going to make plasmas any more due to price compression. Since price has become the primary market factor (and not performance), it's harder to sell a product the sets itself apart due to performance. I get comments from time to time as such: "Why should I spend $6000 for this 42" plasma when I can go to Costco for $1500?"


The fact is that the Fujitsu, as compared to the Vizio or Maxent, blow them away in performance. There's really no comparison and it's not debatable. What is debatable is how much value (perceived and otherwise) the various displays have between each other. We sell the Fujitsu because it's a better product and it's what our clients expect, not because it has more margin on it. We also sell Panasonic, which has an excellent CB ratio. We may look to Pioneer or Elite to cover our Fuji segment, or go Vidikron or Runco.


So, to tie it in with the airline industry, if you focus too much energy on cost, cost dictates the product. The casualty is choice. Fujitsu is going away, and now we have a little less choice. The end result is all displays will be cheap (and crappy). I think there should be choice, and within each choice there can and should be price competition. But it's apparent Joe Six Pack is not as educated as most CI's or AVSers about the various differences in between the Costco plasma and the Fujitsu. So Fujitsu said screw it.


Does this benefit the industry and the consumer? I think not.


----------



## lkosova

Ivb and Bigpapa,


Great points!!


Larry


----------



## samgreco

I've been catching up on this thread after many moons of not reading it. Great comments bigpapa and IVB.


First, let me say that I was a sales rep for various audio and video companies for a while and completely understand the CI's point of view. And completely agree with bigpapa's views on this.


I think this whole backlash to profit for the CI is indicative of the general problem we're having in this country and why all of our manufacturing is disappearing. We consumers (not me







) seem to think that we should get everything at the lowest possible price and that there are no consequences for it. Then we complain when service sucks and blame everyone for the dismal jobs outlook and the economy.


And that's just a small part of why I don't shop at WalMart.


Fair profit is what we should all be striving for. A small business person needs to make a living, pay for helath insurance (has anyone priced that recently?), taxes, salaries, rent, phones. If he/she can't do that, they go out of business.


Then what happens to that customer when the cheap guys install doesn't work when he's gone?


I recently started a computer services company (1 man) and have been completely blown away at what people expect me to work for. I had one potential customer that wanted a new website, office networking and general server/PC work and was willing to pay $15.00/hr for it! It's not worth getting out of bed for that! And in fact, it was a VERY short conversation. When starting at $15, there is no way to get them up to my real rates. Which I think are quite fair at $79. But try and convince the $15 customer that my 15 years of IT experience are worth it. Ain't gonna happen. He'll hire some inexperienced kid that doesn't understand business systems, takes days instead of hours to get things working, and then blame the entire industry as crooks. Sound familiar?


Problem is, how do you convince people that spending more on products and services is good for them? I can win that battle on occasion by selling myself and my experience. But I lose that battle more often than not.


----------



## QQQ

Amen Sam


----------



## roddymcg

I have to agree, very well said. I will not spend a dollar in a Wal-Mart...


----------



## QQQ

I read an interesting story about Sam Walmart the other day. Certainly a brilliant guy, but IF the article was to be believed, cheap to the point of illness, at least as far as I am concerned. The article said that he would often go to his stores with no money and borrow 50 cents from someone else to buy a soda drink. Rather ironic that such a person created the most efficient chain for low prices.


----------



## samgreco

I've heard the same stories about him.


Plus, because of him, I can't use the name Sam's on any business I start, even though that's my name. Ugh. Although they did loose a lawsuit here in the Chicago area when they sued Sam's Wine and Liquors for infringement when they had been using that name for almost 100 years!


I could go on....


----------



## erikbenz

I think what a lot of what the CI folks here might not realize is that a lot of the potential customer base are Telecom / IT / Engineers. Your target customers are highly compensated sharp folks and thes folks tend to be anyalitical, organized and well educated on LOTS of things. Frankly I am sick of the perception that anyone who is in to this is "RICH" or a doctor or lawyer. Please realize that the target market has changed!!


----------



## bigpapa

Funny how roles change. I think Sam Walton was cheap to the point of obsessiveness. Just like my grandma who scolded me for buying tomatoes at $.79 a pound when I could have driven 10 minutes farther across town and got them for $.39. We're talking about 3 pounds of tomatoes here. Not only is my convenience an issue (I spent $1.20 to save 20 minutes of my time), she assumed that tomatoes offered at both places were exactly the same. Tomatoe, tomato, eh?


Not all tomatoes are the same. Nor are all plasmas or LCD's. But the fact is that Wallmart offers a choice, and a plasma or LCD offered by my company is another choice. I think that's great. I use Wallmart for some things, but not for everything. I know Wallmart offers cheap stuff, thanks to Sam Walton. When I want something cheap, I go to Wallmart. I chose to go cheap. If the product doesn't last that long, I don't worry about it because I made the choice.


Wallmart provides great service, if you count smiling faces great service. Love the door greeter! But do they provide great product service? No. I'd go buy a cheap mouse there, but not a whole computer system. I might choose a computer store, or... Gateway or Dell. If I really want personal service, I might choose a local computer store. The point is that I have the choice between the options. Good, no?


I think it would be best for the public to have a choice between buying the product, and buying the product with installation. They should have a choice between the Maxent, Panasonic, Pioneer Elite and Fujitsu. The Maxents can compete with the Vizio, the Panasonic can compete with the Pioneer, the Pioneer Elite can compete with the Fujitsu.


CI's should compete with other CI's. Internet distributors should compete with other internet distributors. Large capacity cheap vendors should compete with large capacity cheap vendors.


We get out of whack when CI's compete with Internet distributors, and Neiman Marcus competes with Wallmart. I like having the choice between Neiman Marcus and Wallmart. Nobody would think for a second that they are competing. Why would one expect a professional CI to compete with displaysforcheap.com?


There's nothing wrong with WallMart. I think it's great to have that choice. We have one locally and it really makes it convenient for certain purchases. Macy's is a little further away if we want something a little better. There's various other specialized vendors for us to purchase from.


I don't want this to turn into a WallMart bashing thread. The point is that we have choice, of which WallMart is a choice. I regret that Fujitsu is now not a choice anymore. Their departure is being categorized as them not being able to keep up, they're getting their asses kicked, there's better product, etc. Maybe so. But the real reason, the key reason they aren't in the business any more is that they can't make any money selling that product. That's because many don't see a value in that product any more, and that directly relates to consumer knowledge of the product and margin erosion due to constant price pressures. Is another high end display product at risk in the future?


----------



## lkosova

Sam Greco,


Send me your website and information.


You have to pick who your customers are. Not the other way around. Plus creating packages for your service might make more sense then an hourly fee.


Erikbenz,


Funny you say that being a doc myself. Most of my high-end customers in high-fi are bluecollar. Fireman and Policeman really like their HI-fi!!!


Again it's not what somebody does for a living it is the person,


Larry


----------



## lkosova

Is

another high end display product at risk in the future?


Problem is companies don't know how to change with the times. Look at VMPS audio speakers. Very mid to high end speakers. Very small company and they make a profit every year and grow. Nitch market but the owner caters to this market.


More companies are going to have to start to listen to their customers needs or they won't be around much longer.


My guess is in the next 5 years you will see buyouts and company consolidations for electronics will happen and narrow our choices.


When the consumer will see that bigbox can't do what they want whom do you think they will turn to???? Yep , Us once again.


Larry


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *erikbenz* /forum/post/12621616
> 
> 
> I think what a lot of what the CI folks here might not realize is that a lot of the potential customer base are Telecom / IT / Engineers. Your target customers are highly compensated sharp folks and thes folks tend to be anyalitical, organized and well educated on LOTS of things. Frankly I am sick of the perception that anyone who is in to this is "RICH" or a doctor or lawyer. Please realize that the target market has changed!!



Erik, I work for more IT company CEO's than I do doctors and lawyers. Some of these guys are well known and industry vanguards. *They're all analytical and intelligent, and they all let me know it by either their actions or because they tell me so.* Being rich is usually an effect of them being smart and analytical. Not only that, after they get through with us, they have their people watching us to make sure there's no funny business.


As an aside, I have to laugh when I see comments from various people who assume that we work for dumb rich people who either don't care what we charge them or are too stupid to know the difference. To that, Mark Twain: "It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot than to open it and remove all doubt."


Those same smart folks (or the people who work for them and want to get a gold star on their employee review) will price shop us on plasmas and wonder why the shouldn't have their home builder go to Costco and buy 10 plasmas for their home, after I specified Panny or Pioneer in the kid/guest rooms and a Fuji in the Family Room.


The mistake is made again that an education means that you are smart. They may be educated about certain subjects, maybe even smart. That does not mean they know everything, nor is it proof of intelligence. Getting an education sure can help to that end, but it does not prove or guarantee inelligence or wisdom. What it does do quite often is improve the ego










I did not go to college. The very day after my graduation from HS I was in the van. That was 20 years ago. I may be stupid, uneducated, have bad teeth, beat my wife, and aspire to get on COPS during a domestic dispute. I should be easy fodder for any doctor or lawyer (or MBA, IT guy) to debate me and tell me why I should sell product at internet prices and charge handyman labor rates for our services. A man (or woman) of modest education should be able to easily dispatch me in a debate on the pros/cons of the CI industry moving to a 'cost+' business model. I've been waiting a long time, but sooner or later it will happen, no?


Not to mention, all my handlers and previous bosses are idiots for hiring me because I'm not educated. How stupid could they be?


Just because you're a neurosurgeon or rocket scientist doesn't mean that you'll know the difference between an $800 Maxent LCD at Costco and a $200 0 Bravia installed by yours truly. What's frustrating is when I try to explain the difference but because somebody is so smart or doesn't trust me, my professional opinion is discounted... because they are smarter than me and they just know that I'm out to fleece them because I was pushy and wanted to come by their house and look at their watch to size them up for the impending fleecing.


(Last sentence is proof that I didn't take Advanced Period Logic or Sentence Structure in college)


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lkosova* /forum/post/12621931
> 
> 
> Is
> 
> another high end display product at risk in the future?
> 
> 
> Problem is companies don't know how to change with the times. Look at VMPS audio speakers. Very mid to high end speakers. Very small company and they make a profit every year and grow. Nitch market but the owner caters to this market.
> 
> 
> More companies are going to have to start to listen to their customers needs or they won't be around much longer.
> 
> 
> My guess is in the next 5 years you will see buyouts and company consolidations for electronics will happen and narrow our choices.
> 
> 
> When the consumer will see that bigbox can't do what they want whom do you think they will turn to???? Yep , Us once again.
> 
> 
> Larry



Fujitsu changed with the times. They quit!










There will always be nitch. We offer various nitch products. (And I learned long ago not to read a prospective client by his car or watch.) But the problem isn't the nitch markets. It's that the average consumer doesn't understand why there's a nitch in the first place. Some companies understand what their customers need, but what they need and what they want are often two different things.


People want to pay less, no doubt. If people are asked if they want better performance, they will undoubtedly ask for better performance. But if you don't ask them, they won't know that there's a difference. The clues are right there: One TV is $500, one is $1000. They don't want to read and understand the all various statements and data on the box. Now they want service, so they ask the (uneducated barely out of high school) kid manning the isles "Which one is better?" What do you think the kid is going to say? Ask the same kid if he knows which one is a better value.


You just pointed out one of the fundamental reasons for some manufacturers to go with CI only lines. The cynical will call them 'protected' lines and imply it 's just so we can keep margins up. To them, I have a Mark Twain quote in mind







The fact is that the professional lines we sell are different than the lines easily available on the internet. Even for something as simple as a speaker. They're called 'professional' lines for a reason.


It has to be this way. It helps insure that there will still be the 'expert' available to consumers who want that service. It benefits the consumer, though some don't understand why and some don't want to believe it.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12622222
> 
> 
> There will always be nitch.
> 
> 
> The fact is that the professional lines we sell are different than the lines easily available on the internet. Even for something as simple as a speaker. They're called 'professional' lines for a reason.



But what about the convergence between the consumer lines and professional lines. At some point, increases in technology will stop being as relevant.


I have seen a Fujitsu plasma as my neighbor has a couple along with both a Qualia 004 and 006. His 006 is beautiful, but I will put it up against my 70" XBR2 in terms of PQ for half the price. Sony managed to create a product that was 98% as good for half the price.


In 3 years, what will the professional line be able to offer that the consumer (at least the mid to higher models)lines won't have? An example would be 1080p. First it was on high end sets, but before long, 1080p was on Vizios.


At some point the additional features are going to be so irrelevant to 99% of the market that it won't matter. Can you imagine what would happen if Vizio added RS232 and discretes?


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *herdfan* /forum/post/12623939
> 
> 
> At some point the additional features are going to be so irrelevant to 99% of the market that it won't matter. Can you imagine what would happen if Vizio added RS232 and discretes?



I don't know, you tell me. I still won't be putting them in because they look like ass. Please don't tell me that they will look as good a any of the professional line.


Actually, there seems to be a divergence between consumer and professional lines. 'Nitch' isn't professional, it's high end: to get into the club, you had to go to a specialized shop and pay more money. In the professional line, you have to hire a professional to utilize that product. Or buy it from the grey market.


What do you mean 'increases in technology will become irrelevant?' Do you mean that the consumer won't have to pay for them?










What about the consumer who wants the display that's 2% better for 25% more cost? 1080P on Vizios doesn't really mean much: you're making the same mistake as the general consumer, assuming that any display that displays 1080P looks as good as any other display running 1080P. Are you going to imply that there's no difference?


Vizio won't be putting 232 or giving out discrete IR codes any time soon. It's not their market. You're assuming that since the technology is available and known that it will find it's way into the market in all displays. RS232 and discrete IR has been available for years before Vizio started being manufactured, why didn't they just add them for another $20 a display? I say the opposite (and worse case) is true: since 99% of the market doesn't want RS232 and discrete IR codes, cost pressures will dictate that Vizio won't spend the money on including them.


That's bad. What I don't want is the display manufacturers who provide better displays with more advanced 1080P signal conversion circuits and RS232/Discrete IR codes to throw in the towel since they have too much 'competition' from cheap Vizio and Maxents who don't put that technology into their displays.


The attitude I see is that 'technology will get cheap anyway, so therefore it should be cheap now.' That won't happen. What is likely to happen is that too much price compression will cause the manufacturers not spend much effort looking to improve technology or do anything new, they'll likely spend their efforts finding ways to make it cheaper, and choice will get lost in the equation.


----------



## lkosova

It's funny. Just had a friend of a friend have this conversations since they wanted to get a tv "cheaper" on the internet. They knew I had this "side" company and sat with me at my kids chess tournament asking questions about what type, specs I gave them to look for etc. Of course they wanted to go cheap at first. They knew 1080" something". I was reading one consumer and one industry magazine.


After explaining the importance of 120 hz scan and why some upconverting dvd players actually look good and explaining hd-dvd and Blueray to them and why you would want to maybe calibrate the tv or at least get a disk to change the contrast etc etc. Explaining the flourescent lights and pushing blue at big box, I get the "so why would I not just buy online for the cheapest price with the specs you gave me".


I told them they would of made a mistake since the tv they wanted to get had a lousy processer and it would of never obtained the black level needed for good contrast etc etc and by the time they paid "big box" more for the install for a cheaper mount etc they would of paid more money anyway for a cheaper unit that has worse specs. I explained about paying me for the knowledge of what I just told them......I got a huh??


I am also a doc and if someone came to my office they would pay for the same information (well not about tv's) for my time and "knowledge". Once I told them this it made sense to them.


Again getting the correct clientèle to understand this is another story. I don't do cheap. That does not always mean alot more money. I also take the clients to a distributor that has the tv's on display and show them the difference. If they want me to go to a big box with them, they would be charged for my time but never had to go that far.


Larry


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12625669
> 
> 
> What do you mean 'increases in technology will become irrelevant?' Do you mean that the consumer won't have to pay for them?



I knew I didn't phrase that very well.










I guess the point I was trying to make relates to the differences between professional lines and consumer lines and how as technology progresses and costs come down, those features that used to be found on the higher end models are now available on the lower end models.


Take the line of Denon receivers. It used to be that you had to spend $1200 to get Audyssey MultEQ as the 3806 was the lowest receiver to offer it. Then it came to the 2807 and now can be found on the 1708 for $499. So they are having to "invent" features on the higher end products to keep them higher end. At some point, any new features are going to "irrelevant" to todays consumer.


And by irrelevant, I mean consumers aren't going to care about them as they provide very little return for the $. A hypothetical example might be adding 5 more surround modes. I don't use all the ones that are included now, so adding more would mean nothing to me. Yes someone may invent the next Audyssey MultEQ, but it won't ake long for it to come down in price and be available on lower end receivers.


I don't want junk in my house either. Today, higher end TV's & receivers offer features I want. The big question is will they be able to create new must have features in the future.


----------



## bigpapa

Features will always be expensive at first then come down in price. Our clients will take part in the realization of price drop because we'll be paying less for the products as well. We're talking technology here. But you help make a point for having separate lines.


There was differing digital room correction modes on various products, some OK some not (Yamaha's perpetually told you that one speaker was out of polarity, for instance), well before Audyssey. Audyssey came out and is much improved, hopefully will be copycatted by other less desireable room correction chip manufacturers. The 3806 has Audyssey MultiEQ, but did you know that Audyssey makes 4 different products:


MulitEQ

Dynamic EQ

Bass XT

MultiEQ Pro


The first three products are chips available to various manufacturers, of which most put in MultiEQ but may opt to only put in Dynamic EQ or Bass XT. The Pro version is an outboard unit that is many times more powerful than the MultiEQ chip available in consumer versions and can be configured for multiroom apps. And you guessed, it's only available through installers.


Is there anything wrong with this? Hell no. I think it's a great product that improves enjoyment of the product experience. The more advanced product is available through an installer, who will have experience installing and setting it up faster. Everyone is happy.


The only problem to this whole scheme is that most JoeSixPackers (and most BB or CC saleskids) won't know the difference, if they even know what it is at all. Installers do and will drive equipment selection systems due to Audyssey EQ availability (I have already) if somebody hires us. AVSers have and will make the selection as well. But our combined purchasing power is small compared to the various weekend warriors and geeks, and noob AVSers, who just want a new AV receiver and will look at price and watts per channel in lieu of all other options










This happens, that's just a fact of life. The consumer thinks they got a good deal, the big box store moved a big box, all is right in the universe, right? Well, not exactly. If this happens too much (and it has happend for years with displays), manufacturers like Audyssey may decide that their product isn't selling enough and pull out. Even worse, industry developers of new products or technologies may decide not to put too much effort into new product because they'll worry about not getting a return on their investment. That's bad for everyone.


If price becomes too powerful a factor, what gets pinched out is service and features. The lowest common denominator will win, and all others will be pinched out. The expertise in the Big Box stores is well pinched out (and CC just went out of business, in no small part to shrinking display margin erosion). The only way they make money is through extended warranties, and everyone complains about the hard sell of them.


What's left? The Custom Installer industry. That's where the expertise is now. Fujitsu was one of the casualties of margin erosion in displays. If it continues unabated, others will follow, and the remaining manufacturers will start cutting out features (like ones valued by custom installers and uber geeks) since they're so obsessed on keeping prices low. We're not their yet, but it could happen. In the CI industry, we have the potential margin erosion across our entire product offering due to misunderstanding (and outright un-appreciation) of what we provide to the transaction.


Before any sympathy is given (not that I'd get any), think about the JSP consumers: would they benefit from lower prices, no service, and only basic features? I think I've made a compelling argument for no.


Maxent and Vizio are not likely to start making discrete IR codes or put on 232 ports (with good control modules) any time soon. They aren't likely to put cooling fans in their plasmas: a 42" Vizio has no fans, but a 42" Fuji has 8 or more. The Vizio is gets really hot. What I don't want is for all remaining display manufacturers to start thinking 'Maxent and Vizio are kicking our ass, maybe we should cut the 232 port and IR codes development, and remove fans, and use cheaper 3:2 pulldown and deinterlacer chips, so we can compete with them.'


That's bad news if it happens. I don't think we're in free fall, this change is not impending, but the forces are there. I see it in the attitudes of many on AVS, in clients, and in the behavior of JSP's.


----------



## samgreco

All of this seems to boil down to perception of quality and value. How do you show customers what is better when they think that iPods and MP3s and Bose (makes me shudder just typing that) are "the best!".


I don't think we're talking about the niche audiophile, videophile here. It's Joe Consumer. I have tried to show friends the difference between compressed audio and uncompressed. Most of them stare blankly at me. And I have good audio gear. Then try and show them good video versus average. Ugh.


So when you're trying to convince people to spend a little more to get a little better, alot of them just to see it.


Too bad we can't start a "fad" about high quality.


----------



## stefuel

When that new laser flat panel with a built-in ATM shows up, give me a call


----------



## Sailn




samgreco said:


> All of this seems to boil down to perception of quality and value. How do you show customers what is better when they think that iPods and MP3s and Bose (makes me shudder just typing that) are "the best!".
> 
> 
> We do it by using EASE simulations and auralizations. It is the only way I know to demonstrate to the client, who may not really know anything about sound reporduction, why what they have is bad, and what we can do is better. Our typical client has already spent a lot of money on sound systems with other companies, and they are unhappy. It is vitially important to give them a reason to use us. Handing them a pair of headphones and having them listen to a simulation of their club, while sitting in their club does that. They can hear that the EASE simulation is faithful to the presently installed sound system, with all it's defects. Next we have them listen to a simulation of our proposed system. Finially they write the check.
> 
> 
> Then again, our clients are club owners and it IS rather easy to show ROI and that dropping $200K is worth it if it revenue increase by a few percent.


----------



## lkosova

For uncompressed vs compressed there is a site that escapes at the moment called something like "The great Audio Experience" that nicley shows and explains the differences to the consumer and you might learn something as well.


As I did with my wife I gave her a pair of Shure older e4's earbuds. She is amazed at the difference of the sound with these compared to most anything else she has heard.


Bose 901's were pretty good


Larry


----------



## lkosova

Here it is and a cheaper way for your clients to experience the difference

http://www.greataudio.com/index.html 


Larry


----------



## bigpapa

All you have to do is play an iPod through a basic AVR with a modest pair of speakers, then connect an iPod to the line level in. Right after they hear it, tell them that MP3's have only 10% of the information the a CD has, that's why it doesn't sound as good.


What you should do if you have distributed audio system is have a server such as Request the mirrors your iTunes library on your iPod but plays the same material uncompressed through your Distributed Audio system.


But the average person interested in this will just purchase a Sonos and be tickled pink with it.


----------



## erikbenz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12677253
> 
> 
> All you have to do is play an iPod through a basic AVR with a modest pair of speakers, then connect an iPod to the line level in. Right after they hear it, tell them that MP3's have only 10% of the information the a CD has, that's why it doesn't sound as good.
> 
> 
> What you should do if you have distributed audio system is have a server such as Request the mirrors your iTunes library on your iPod but plays the same material uncompressed through your Distributed Audio system.
> 
> 
> But the average person interested in this will just purchase a Sonos and be tickled pink with it.



Big Papa


I think you have just summed up this entire thread. Business is eroding because of "Good Enough” as well as rock bottom pricing that comes with no service. So in order to maintain margins the CI business has to shift to a cost plus or value added pricing model. If the location that competition is encountered is in equipment pricing then take that sticking point off of the table. Sell the equipment at par. Then charge separately for engineering Bill of Material authoring, labor, acoustical design etc. The CI will remove the ability to shop the job based on easily compared items and instead focus on your value added proposition.


There are plenty of things I have purchased that were not from the lowest bidder but the only time that happens is when the proposal is so special that I believe that company is the only one that can pull it off and service it in the future. An example would be a gunite pool VS. Fiberglass or vinyl. You can spend a whole lot less or spend more and get more. The CI has to find a way to differentiate their offering from the big box store. We all know that the big box is NOT a true CI business.


Now another point is how consumers are treated when walking in to a CI type store front. Listening to a customer’s budget and goals is mandatory to closing sales. If a customer has a 3k projector budget we all know a new Runco will not work. At that point the CI SHOULD be willing to discuss other valid options in that price range because you know what you just might get the install, service and upgrade work. A true relationship over a period of years must be developed in order to get 5 and 6 figure plus sales/projects.


Erik


----------



## AnthonyZ

erikbenz, I see where you're coming from and to a point agree. I disagree though that the only way for a CI to see large projects (not to be confused with large profit, I've found that often the opposite is true) is to "look forward" to service and upgrades over a period of years. I have closed many sales after meeting a client and investing one whole hour with them on projects that are very large in scale. I focus on well thought out, designed systems that are very precisely installed, intentionally programmed and offer clients years of trouble free service that don't require upgrades. It's worked very well for both parties.


----------



## bigpapa

Erik,


I'm not going to go into detail at this time as to why a 'cost plus' business model is not good for our industry. I'll only make one key point.


Our industry straddles four industries: consumer electronics, computer, professional electronics, and the construction/building industry. Cost+ business models exist in two of those industries and in a lesser form in the others. But that doesn't mean we should adopt the same model.


Builders frequently use a cost+15% model for custom projects. Seems to work well for them. Our labor rates are comparable to other trades on the job, but to compensate our margins have to be higher. Electronics are more fickle and take more training and experience than 2x4, nails, and sheetrock. Plus, electronics need programming and run on SW. 15% margin on electronics is out of the question (ask Circuit City about low margins).


People already don't value our services when they can get pricing online for some of the same pieces of equipment. We could match our pricing to the internet, but our labor rates would have to go upward to compensate for all the risk/time/training it takes to be proficient in a product, plus you need to add warranty money in there. Now all the homebuilders would wonder why we are the highest paid sub on the project, but far. Clients won't understand why they have to pay such high labor rates to 'just hook up a stereo.' What is the solution then?


We have a model where we make some profit on margin, and some on labor. It balances out. Many CI companies are making net profits of 5% to 7%, with a few that have ultra streamlined models maybe making 10%. There is no gouging or fleecing going on with margins in this industry, though we have higher equipment margins than other industries. The companies charging good margin stay in business and get better, which is good for the customer. The guys trying to play the 'how little margin can I get away with' lose out. That's the way it's been for a long time.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> People already don't value our services when they can get pricing online for some of the same pieces of equipment.



The problem here is that only a few people care about the small quality difference between the fuji and the vizio brands but CIs think everyone should care about that small difference. It doesnt make sense too me why anyone pays 3x the price for a piece of a equipment but thats nothing new.


In my house I have JVC, Panny, Vizio, Westy, Maxtent and Pio products. I have parties and I have the 61" 1080p JVC in the family room and its great, I have the 50" Maxent on the patio and it JUST AS great for sporting events. Heck I have done so many comparisons with friends and family and the simple answer is that ALL are great, sure we can probably find the differences but that is not whats important.


The important fact is that all these brands produce a quality picture from what we all consider the reference point.....our 20 year old CRTs. 10 years from now we will probably move on to better quality but since the Vizio produces a GREAT picture right now we dont care about spending $3K more for nothing.


Professional calibration doesnt really give us much more either. I have two 50" panny flat panels and I had one calibrated. I then put them side by side.......simple conclusion what a joke to have paid $300!!


Same can be said about professional audio services. I once had a local high end audio company send a guy to my house to give me advice on the new HT room Im building....lol. I paid $100 for a guy to come out and do nohting











I put my money out there to find out, I have no problem spending something on what I believe should be value but sorry some of us dont see the value because there just isnt any in the end wrt to these specific instances and the experiences we have had.


----------



## cmont




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12799654
> 
> 
> The problem here is that only a few people care about the small quality difference




Thankfully there are and they can afford the type of services good CIs can offer.


I am so thankful I never have to encounter people such as yourself in my job. It would be a real bummer.


Reading these threads I am surprised any CI would even bother posting. It is a complete waste of time.


----------



## bigpapa

Penn,


I suppose with the logic you ascribed that if you invested $1000 in the stock market and lost it, you would call it a joke and say everyone would lose their money. A cheap TV is not worth calibrating, especially if its on you back patio or in a bright room. If you said the same rhetoric to that audio guy that you do to us on AVS, I'm not surprised that he didn't do that much for you. Showing up and 'giving advice' is an extremely vague statment, but I suppose good enough to advise people that 'audio advice' is worthless, no? We usually hire actual audio engineers to help design theaters but they charge a lot more than $100 and spend more than an hour on site.


I don't know why you think nobody cares about the small quality difference between displays. It's all relative. Most people don't know that there is a difference to begin with. Quit telling us what CI's think because you're usually wrong. We want people to know there is a quality difference and understand what that is so they can make an informed decision. It's quite clear what your value system is and that's fine for you, but don't project it onto our industry and client base.


It would be reprehensible for me to advise a client that there's really little difference between displays. It's just not true. As well, you're relating the difference in PQ only and not considering chassis, fan system design, and controllability. Half the sets you have don't have discrete IR codes. Did you calibrate any set that is ISF certified and designed to have better configuration so calibration is better? When you set the two TV's side by side, was it in a dark room with a video DA so the picture was playing at exactly the same time?


----------



## AnthonyZ

C'mon BigPapa, the Hay Penny is a contrary conflict addict. You don't really believe this guy AB'd the sets do you? Penny probably does believe he did it but you can't take him seriously because this is the same guy that thinks his Visio has a GREAT picture. He is the poster child for the lowest common denominator.


----------



## penngray

lol, whatever anythony your post is worthless but....its penngray not penny either..let the insults fly because that is all a person like you can do online...talk to me in person and I doubt you even remotely would have the same opinion.



Bigpapa, I already understand your point of view from your many posts over the past couple of years you have to realize people WITH MONEY dont see it your way as much as you think. You are going to have customers and I know who those customers will be, I see them daily on the golf course or on poker nights. I know them and I know why they choose to select some one like you.


I also know that they are only 2 out of 10 guys at the table and we all make similar money. Thats still good business but I would always wonder what the other 8 are thinking.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Thankfully there are and they can afford the type of services good CIs can offer.
> 
> 
> I am so thankful I never have to encounter people such as yourself in my job. It would be a real bummer.
> 
> 
> Reading these threads I am surprised any CI would even bother posting. It is a complete waste of time.




The thread was about profits and its has many points of view. Mine is one from the other side that doesnt see the value CIs offer when they quote jobs at $50/sq ft to $100/sq ft.....That doesnt make sense.


I built a house.....

I spent 75K on a pool, I spent 50K on cabinets, I spent 35K on counter tops, I spent 700K on my house overall. Now a CI thinks I should spent 100K on something to watch TV, movies, turn lights on and off and the equipment is never seen??? That is silly and to argue that the Fujitsu products are SUBJECTIVELY BETTER then pannys is a joke. I dont get too excited about it its again a point of reference BOTH ARE BETTER THEN CRTs...I guess its too hard for the stubborn ones to understand that.




> Quote:
> I don't know why you think nobody cares about the small quality difference between displays. It's all relative. Most people don't know that there is a difference to begin with. Quit telling us what CI's think because you're usually wrong.



um....I dont care what a CI thinks. Again, Im giving you the customer perspective (and that would be the customer WITH MONEY), I also never said ALL, I said MANY. CIs will obviously push the idea that that little PQ difference is HUGE. I see it all the time on forums and in high-end stores. The ONLY people that get their nose bent out of shape are the guys trying to make money off that idea.


The question most people answer is that LITTLE gain worth the 2 to 3 times the cost?? I get asked this all the time by everyone and the simple answer is no.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> It would be reprehensible for me to advise a client that there's really little difference between displays. It's just not true. As well, you're relating the difference in PQ only and not considering chassis, fan system design, and controllability. Half the sets you have don't have discrete IR codes. Did you calibrate any set that is ISF certified and designed to have better configuration so calibration is better? When you set the two TV's side by side, was it in a dark room with a video DA so the picture was playing at exactly the same time?




The fuji and the panny have a large difference??? That is an incredibly subjective statement.


discrete IR codes?? Who cares get serial!


I will have to confirm ISF but lets say its not ISF, I dont think it matters because you still dont understand my point of view...you are splitting hairs and being simply subjective when you talk about quality. I have been to demos and I have had the sales pitches from guys trying to say one TV is "way" better then the other TV and so on.


I can see differences but its doesnt make me wet my pants like it does for you guys. You think it should for everyone and if we dont think the difference is that much better then we are ignorant. I read and hear this ALL THE TIME from the high end audio and video crowd so its nothing new, its an invalid arguement but that doesnt stop people from doing it.


I have never said you are doing anything wrong Bigpapa, you have selected a high end market and you have a very limited customer base. It works for you and thats great.


If CIs want to be stubborn and insult any post disagreeing with their business appoarch or technology then I honestly think they will suffer in this current market but again I dont care if they dont make a penny (some fail because of stupidity but again I dont care about them). Im not in the business Im just a customer with money and a point of view.


----------



## AnthonyZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12807068
> 
> 
> ...talk to me in person and I doubt you even remotely would have the same opinion.



Why, because you'd "see the light" if I were in person and concede that you don't know near as much as you like to think you do? Or, you would come to the same conclusion and admit that you have a problem with conflict and just have to be contrary for it's own sake? Or, are you suggesting that you're some kind of bad a$$ who's sheer physical stature would shake me to my very core? I think each option is just as unlikely as the next...


----------



## penngray

I just use common sense for day to day decisions. You just would not have the same opinion you show in your posts because you would know me and understand what Im saying. That is all, nothing else.....oh and you would not insult or call me names to my face. You just wouldnt so dont do it online.


Im not a contrarian at all, I do not buy to be the lowest common denominator...I dont know of one friend that owns what I own. I get the OMG that is way too cool all the time.


Its funny you post that opinion actually because it can not be further from the truth to what I do and what I buy.



The biggest problem for you guys is that you dont KNOW your audience (here)....who do you think you are posting for on here? who do you think is buying 100+K system? 5K flat panels and touchscreens?? You post like we are the ones that are crazy, you post thinking we dont have money or that we are simply wrong.


Im posting that even though you have a "market" that market is small for many reasons, one of the biggest reasons is that your pricing on individual items is out of whack. Its a good thing some of you get away with the 100K - 200K projects because the volume is so low you need the high profit margins.



someone posted the following ...._Reading these threads I am surprised any CI would even bother posting. It is a complete waste of time._


I actually agree, I dont know why CIs that think 100K is reasonable would post at all or read this forum. Honestly its not their audience. This forum is not a waste of time for anyone that was great value, wants options and doesnt just take their local CI opinion as gospil and write a blank check.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12808415
> 
> 
> I actually agree, I dont know why CIs that think 100K is reasonable would post at all or read this forum. Honestly its not their audience. This forum is not a waste of time for anyone that was great value, wants options and doesnt just take their local CI opinion as gospil and write a blank check.



Again Penngray, you come from a position of ignorance. I'm not saying that to be insulting, it's just a fact. Though you 'have money,' I'm thankful that most of the clients we deal with don't have the same dogmas you do. You clearly can't get away from your sentiment that you are getting ripped of because you don't understand this industry and don't understand this technology. Completing an install in your own house does not make you a pro, though it is an impressive feat.


You don't understand $100 a sf contract, but I doubt you ever would unless I walked you through the project that took 2 years and thousands of labor hours to complete. 100 paragraphs explaining I doubt would help either. You have your opinion based in your experience base, I have mine. The difference is that all our decisions aren't based in making a buck, which is what you imply because you think we're a bunch of money grubbing whores. I've never worked for any client that wrote us a blank check: in fact, the client who spent $100 a sf put us through the ringer asking us to explain every detail (then after that, 'his people' put us through the ringer again, and continually do). He also price shopped us on plasmas and wanted to know why we couldn't use touchpanel A for cheap vs touchpanel B. We told him why without ********ting him, and he chose the more expensive touchpanels. He has 10 Fujitsu's throughout the project: he got the best displays at the time. They're still damn good.


We just signed a contract for $1.1 million. Do you think he wrote us a blank check? Hell no, he put us through the ringer too. It took hours and hours from a lot of people, many meetings, and three months to close this deal. Do you want to imply that he doesn't know the difference between a Fuji and Vizio or doesn't value that difference?


The more we wrangle, the more I think you really don't know my client base or what we go through. You are not my customer and you don't represent my customers. I know because I play golf with them too, though I doubt they'll invite me to play power with them. We have relationships with them and gain their trust, but that's after they put us through the ringer and validate our offerings. It's worked so far.


We don't tell people how much money they need to spend. We ask them what they want then we tell them how much it costs. If what you want is $100K, that's what it takes to do the job and make a profit. I'm sorry you don't like the answer, but that's what it is. DIY and be happy with what you got, but validating your decision to do that by impugning CI's motivations and business model doesn't make your opinion any more valid, it actually does the opposite.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> We just signed a contract for $1.1 million.




lol, I guess you made my point










You can call me ignorant and think I dont know automation but I have been doing automation in the warehousing industry for 20 years so I think I know a thing or two about hardware/software and reliability.


I have argued and won against the big wigs at IBM when they said we were foolish not to use $250K unix servers when implementing 24/7 database solutions (Im also an Oracle DBA). I went the alternate path and I cluster PCs at a fraction of the cost....NO DIFFERENCE in reliability and performance gains is off the charts.


Anyways, I will CONTINUE to be "ignorant" since I have been succesful for over 20 years doing what everyone thinks is wrong or foolish, its helps all friends and family and its definitely makes my clients more profitable.




> Quote:
> If what you want is $100K, that's what it takes to do the job and make a profit. I'm sorry you don't like the answer, but that's what it is.



Again, I agree never argued that point of view once. You simply are still not understanding the point of view we differ on. Not once is my opinion been based on what you do or what YOUR customers buy. My opinion is from years of experience and understanding of the average joe living in sub $1 mil homes, you know 99% of the population.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> You clearly can't get away from your sentiment that you are getting ripped of because you don't understand this industry and don't understand this technology. Completing an install in your own house does not make you a pro, though it is an impressive feat.



Person builds a 750K house and gets quoted 150K for a automation system.....hmmmm. You guys can figure out the problem with that, I dont really care much about it.


Heck 75K is a ripoff in my opinion sorry but dont get bent out of shape you have your niche market already. You will just never get the majority of customers and you still wonder why?


I already have my solution and Im extremely happy.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> but validating your decision to do that by impugning CI's motivations and business model doesn't make your opinion any more valid, it actually does the opposite.




So you are saying that CIs only need to go after the ultra high end market and that is the only business model that makes sense?


Hey, I agree with that sort of business model but that is not the opinion the CIs are posting on this forum INSTEAD.....


The post thinking the customer is ignorant all the time. The CI posts with anger about the customer not thinking they are worth it even though the audience here generally isnt even remotely their market.


From the first day I asked why are HA system are so expensive. The replies where....becuase they are worth it, because you can not afford and so on. Never a decent explanation on why a touchscreen was 5K or a Flat panel 8K? Just always the same mantra of "they are worth it".


Since I dont agree with the CIs Im just ignorant....thats okay, I can live with that.


----------



## AnthonyZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12808415
> 
> 
> .....oh and you would not insult or call me names to my face. You just wouldnt so dont do it online.



Don't be so sure. I square up and have been doing it for 20 years.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12809718
> 
> 
> lol, I guess you made my point



What point was that? You've made many points about rich people, but I don't want to put words in your post/mouth.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12809718
> 
> 
> You can call me ignorant and think I dont know automation...



You don't know _this industry_ Penn. This industry is much more than automation, and in many ways much less. Again, I'm impressed by what you've accomplished and respect that.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12809718
> 
> 
> Anyways, I will CONTINUE to be "ignorant" since I have been succesful for over 20 years doing what everyone thinks is wrong or foolish, its helps all friends and family and its definitely makes my clients more profitable.



I can respect going against the grain. I've done that myself for 20 years, everybody telling me I'm crazy or stupid. I get into arguments all the time with highly intelligent people about systems design and UI. They design systems that are too hard to use and I tell them that, or I get crap from sales for removing equipment because I don't think a client will use it or be frustrated by it. So on that note, I can relate. But that's not what our points of disagreement are about.


The issue is that you imply that CI's are overpriced or crooks, that all this stuff costs way too much, that rich people are stupid (not you or your friends though







). That's not being a vanguard or running against the grain, it's just flat out wrong. At least you're not still telling us we should all run on a cost+ business model.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12809718
> 
> 
> Again, I agree never argued that point of view once. You simply are still not understanding the point of view we differ on. Not once is my opinion been based on what you do or what YOUR customers buy. My opinion is from years of experience and understanding of the average joe living in sub $1 mil homes, you know 99% of the population.



Your opinion is that person living in a sub million home won't spend $100K on a system "to just turn some lights and tv's on." Well, duh. But that doesn't mean it's overpriced or they're spending way too much if they do choose to spend $100K on a system.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12809767
> 
> 
> Person builds a 750K house and gets quoted 150K for a automation system.....hmmmm. You guys can figure out the problem with that, I dont really care much about it.



Then why are you here? What is the inherent problem in a $150K quote for a $750K house? Maybe a CI salesman should qualify the client so there's no sticker shock, but that in and of itself isn't a problem. Should we have a sliding scale of charges to the 'poor' rich people pay less that the filthy stinking rich people? I really don't understand this. $150K worth of stuff costs $150K. Should we only give them the option of $50K worth of stuff because we don't they can afford it?


Are you still pissed that a CI salesman took you for a chump?




> Quote:
> Heck 75K is a ripoff in my opinion sorry but dont get bent out of shape you have your niche market already. You will just never get the majority of customers and you still wonder why?



Our closing rate has to be over 70% and growing. I'm being conservative here. I'm wondering what you mean by this comment.



> Quote:
> I already have my solution and Im extremely happy.



That's great, I take no offense nor displeasure in that. There's nothing wrong with you going DIY... except for the fact that you did it because you think you were being fleeced. That's the problem.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12810014
> 
> 
> The CI posts with anger about the customer not thinking they are worth it even though the audience here generally isnt even remotely their market.
> 
> 
> From the first day I asked why are HA system are so expensive. The replies where....becuase they are worth it, because you can not afford and so on. Never a decent explanation on why a touchscreen was 5K or a Flat panel 8K? Just always the same mantra of "they are worth it".
> 
> 
> Since I dont agree with the CIs Im just ignorant....thats okay, I can live with that.



These statements are rife with fallacy. Most of us don't come here to scare up business, we come here because it's industry and technology related and we truly have a passion for it. Most of the guys I know who are really good are busy, but they still come here because the impulse to be able to provide help (at the same time learning something) is strong. Many of us do get upset when our profession is impugned by people who don't understand what we do for a living or the technologies we install.


I've given you much better replies than 'because they are worth it' and 'you can't afford it,' so you are cherry picking the most negative responses to make your point. You've been given many more reasons than you imply, but it's still not enough. We've just reviewed some cheaper touchpanels against more expensive ones: the end result was the more expensive touchpanel was still the better option because the gain in cost effectiveness didn't match up to the loss in abilities. An $8K TV may not be 75% better than a $2K TV, but it's still better. It's a lot better actually.


But of course, it's still subjective, which is convenient when someone surmises that it's really not much better and someone else challenges them on it.


The last fallacy, the easiest to call, is that you're called ignorant just because you don't agree with us. I called you ignorant for the many reasons I stated, not because you disagreed with me. You could disagree with me and not be ignorant.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AnthonyZ* /forum/post/12814690
> 
> 
> Don't be so sure. I square up and have been doing it for 20 years.



Let's take it down a notch.










Calm blue ocean Calm blue ocean calm blue ocean


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Our closing rate has to be over 70% and growing. I'm being conservative here. I'm wondering what you mean by this comment.



You pick your customers very well, its a smart way to do it but your customers are not the audience here. What do 95% of the members want here....heck lets say 70%....are they ever going to spend 150K? I doubt it, how about 100K? Your point of view is not normal here. I never said its wrong but its sort of a moot point because you dont sell to anyone like us but you still try to convince us that you offer "value", that is what I think is really funny.



This is like arguing with anyone that thinks $1000 speaker wires do make a difference. Its subjective and ripe with the age old placebo effect.


Last thing.....


> Quote:
> An $8K TV may not be 75% better than a $2K TV, but it's still better. It's a lot better actually.




Its proven time and time again that its human nature to think that spending extreme amounts of money gets performance and reliability. They have studied that over and over and have proven that people are simply conditioned to believe so. You can convince your customers of that purely subjective statement _It's a lot better actually_ easily because they are already conditioned to believe so. You actually believe it because you sell it.


I wonder what the models are that you "reviewed" and I wonder how you really "reviewed" them.



Anyways, its a pointless debate because we are not even debating the same issue. Our point of reference here doesnt even remotely match. From your posts its obvious that you only serve one type of customer and that customer honestly isnt a type of person that is going to be on an AV forum so your opinion is based on their needs and not really the opinion that helps anyone in a forum like this. Except to tell us the average customer that we are ignorant for not excepting the fact that we should buy the 8K TV instead of the 2K TV because you say its "way better".


I guess science left the forum awhile ago


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Then why are you here?



Im here because HA is too expensive and like many others I have found reliable,flexible ways to do it as well as a CI (minus neat wires







). I have posted my experience over and over helping so many others put in great but affordable systems.


You say I dont know the business or I dont know the technology but you dont know my education, my experience or what I own or have done with automation in general for the past 20 years. Im sorry I didnt get the proper handshake or the proper key to the private CI club


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> except for the fact that you did it because you think you were being fleeced. That's the problem.




Yep and I still feel that way......I think the extreme costs of HA is out of touch with the average person.


Its changing and will continue to change. I dont know if thats good for the CI but its good for the customer and that is all I care about.


----------



## samgreco

I think that a common problem in these threads that seem to come up on a regular schedule is that some seem to forget what the rest of the world sees. It's human nature to get myopic about the world you know.


So Penngray, while I agree with you for ME and MY setup, I also know what the end customer that has no clue what any of this stuff does thinks and sees. When I had to go out and do demos and sales calls with my CI customers (and yes, I was a rep that did that, strange I know) I saw it first hand. Here's what I mean...


The average consumer for this kind of work could never operate the systems using most of the templates that I have seen on ANY of the HA software sites. While they are very good and completely understandable to the creator, Joe customer stares at it and says, "what the hell is a Denon? How do I play Metallica? How do I get Emeril on the TV in the Kitchen”


They need an interface that is so simple that grandma can do it without calling you.


That's what the CI gets paid for. Make it work, without having to go back 42 times. Without 100 phone calls a month. Without the customer wanting to rip it out of the wall because it sucks. You and I can deal with the little gotchas as they happen. And don't tell me that yours worked perfectly from the moment you flipped the switch. I know mine NEVER has. Witness the phone call from my wife with the music in the background blaring at 11 and her yelling at me something about how to turn it off. I kid you not.


So, yes, hiring a CI is WAY too much money for me. I can do it for way less money. But the savings comes at the price of constant tinkering and tweaking and adjusting. A CI can’t do that.


I applaud you, IVB, and all the rest here that do it themselves. But you are NOT the CI’s customer, so it is unfair to try and tell them that they are not running their business correctly. And please understand that I know there are bad ones. And rip-offs. But that is not what we’re talking about here.

And if you had spent half the little time I’ve spent at customer's homes that were shopping for these systems, you'd see it too.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12820767
> 
> 
> You pick your customers very well, its a smart way to do it but your customers are not the audience here. What do 95% of the members want here....heck lets say 70%....are they ever going to spend 150K? I doubt it, how about 100K?Your point of view is not normal here. I never said its wrong but its sort of a moot point because you dont sell to anyone like us but you still try to convince us that you offer "value", that is what I think is really funny.



I'm not here trying to sell AV systems, I'm here because of the AV systems. And, also to retort the tripe that passes as advice on this forums. That in some ways is more helpful to the average non-$100K system buyer than any of the drivel I've seen posted on this forum.


The point is that I'm not here to sell systems or even sell myself, it's to educate people about situations that arise. No matter how much you try and imply that my biases speak louder than my opinions, my record has shown that I'm here to provide levity to the ongoing debate. I subject that your record shows bias over reason time and again.



> Quote:
> This is like arguing with anyone that thinks $1000 speaker wires do make a difference. Its subjective and ripe with the age old placebo effect.



Now I can agree with that. Funny how you say none of my customers are here, yet this forum is rife with consumers of said voodoo cable. No matter how much fact/logic is injected into the debate, some people can't let go of their 'faith.' Much like you and your strong belief that all this stuff costs too much and we're money grubbers. I hope you weren't implying that I sell $1000 speaker cables: I've sold exactly one pair in the last 4 years to a client who demanded them because his friend had them. The rest of my cable is no-name grade 14/2 or 12/2. This is probably the third time I've heard this implication from you.





> Quote:
> Its proven time and time again that its human nature to think that spending extreme amounts of money gets performance and reliability. They have studied that over and over and have proven that people are simply conditioned to believe so. You can convince your customers of that purely subjective statement _It's a lot better actually_ easily because they are already conditioned to believe so. You actually believe it because you sell it.



One assertion does not prove a correlative. This point is moot, except for the last one: I believe it because I see it. You again don't know what you're talking about, but speak loudly about your biases: you think we just spout ******** because it makes us money. That is absolutely ignorant. I don't know if you're projecting or not, but this isn't critical thinking or objective assessment at all.



> Quote:
> I wonder what the models are that you "reviewed" and I wonder how you really "reviewed" them.



We do it the right way: objectively. That's our job. If we had the same motivations you imply we do we wouldn't have the kind of strong long term relationships that we have. But don't take my word for it. You wouldn't anyway.



> Quote:
> Anyways, its a pointless debate because we are not even debating the same issue. Our point of reference here doesnt even remotely match. From your posts its obvious that you only serve one type of customer and that customer honestly isnt a type of person that is going to be on an AV forum so your opinion is based on their needs and not really the opinion that helps anyone in a forum like this.



No, we are debating some issues, and not others. I don't debate that DIY can be a good solution for many and have no objection to DIY. I think it's great. But it has to be for the right reasons. The debate is for the reasons *you imply*, not mine.



> Quote:
> Except to tell us the average customer that we are ignorant for not excepting the fact that we should buy the 8K TV instead of the 2K TV because you say its "way better".



That's the weakest Carvillian spin you've tried in a long time. Do you believe your own spin or are you trying to antagonize me? Either way, that's pure hyperbole. I've said many times that there is a difference, but I believe we should all have the choice between those differences. I've never said that we should only buy the most expensive set 'just because it's better.' The dispute is when you state that 'there is little difference.' You're just being argumentative here, there's really no statements or facts to base your assertions on. Just keep saying the same things over and over, maybe somebody will buy your BS.



> Quote:
> I guess science left the forum awhile ago



Nothing like a good old smiley face to hide the passive aggressiveness of your comments. Reason, logic, and pragmatism left the debate when you showed up, but faith you sure have lots of. You just 'believe' that we're all a bunch of money grubbing automatons that charge 'way too much' for all these systems with as much zeal as a new owner of the fanciest $1000 speaker cables.


How can I argue with that?


----------



## erikbenz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AnthonyZ* /forum/post/12786434
> 
> 
> erikbenz, I see where you're coming from and to a point agree. I disagree though that the only way for a CI to see large projects (not to be confused with large profit, I've found that often the opposite is true) is to "look forward" to service and upgrades over a period of years. I have closed many sales after meeting a client and investing one whole hour with them on projects that are very large in scale. I focus on well thought out, designed systems that are very precisely installed, intentionally programmed and offer clients years of trouble free service that don't require upgrades. It's worked very well for both parties.



So Anthony how are you dealing with all of your 4:3 NTSC CRT installs now that ATSC and Blu-Ray / Hd DVD are here? How about the new audio specs? It is ridiculous to think there will be no upgrades in home entertainment systems. Upgrades arguably may be the bread and butter of the electronics industry. I know that they are in the Telecom/IT arena that I come from.

Erik


----------



## AnthonyZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *erikbenz* /forum/post/12867204
> 
> 
> So Anthony how are you dealing with all of your 4:3 NTSC CRT installs now that ATSC and Blu-Ray / Hd DVD are here? How about the new audio specs? It is ridiculous to think there will be no upgrades in home entertainment systems. Upgrades arguably may be the bread and butter of the electronics industry. I know that they are in the Telecom/IT arena that I come from.
> 
> Erik



You fail to see my point. More importantly, you miss my use of the word "only" in the first sentence I wrote. I did not intend to convey that a well designed system will NEVER benefit from an upgrade. I just mean to counter your statement that, "A true relationship over a period of years must be developed in order to get 5 and 6 figure plus sales/projects." Your statement, in particular the use of the word "must", is no less laughable than the idea that a CI's installs are static and adequate from here and into eternity. I think, ultimately, it's just a bit of misunderstanding on both our parts.


----------



## galileo2000

bigpapa,


I see your points.


I see penngrays points as well.


Please explain to me what I can get for $150K or $75K for my newly bought $750K house.


You don't have to go into the details, just a general plan.


I am sure such a statement would do nothing but promote your services.


Thank you in advance.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *galileo2000* /forum/post/12881080
> 
> 
> I am sure such a statement would do nothing but promote your services.



I'm glad you let that slip out before I wasted my time typing a general difference between a $75K and $150K system. I have no need to promote my services here since I get no work from here, nor do I need it.


It seems that you're the kind of person who would solicit a bid from a CI knowing that you'll never use them.


----------



## Brian B

How does the price of the home impact how much you think the bid will be?


B.


----------



## galileo2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12881166
> 
> 
> I'm glad you let that slip out before I wasted my time typing a general difference between a $75K and $150K system. I have no need to promote my services here since I get no work from here, nor do I need it.
> 
> 
> It seems that you're the kind of person who would solicit a bid from a CI knowing that you'll never use them.



I asked you a very simple question.


I was hoping to get some sort of the intelligent answer.


I was wrong.


Never mind, good luck with you future contracts.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *galileo2000* /forum/post/12881328
> 
> 
> I asked you a very simple question.
> 
> 
> I was hoping to get some sort of the intelligent answer.
> 
> 
> I was wrong.
> 
> 
> Never mind, good luck with you future contracts.



Big Papa could have given a more delicate response but I have a hard time believing that you expected an answer. Did you really expect Big Papa to sit there and draw up a plan for a 75K system and a 150K system just for your amusement???


----------



## galileo2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/12881388
> 
> 
> Big Papa could have given a more delicate response but I have a hard time believing that you expected an answer. Did you really expect Big Papa to sit there and draw up a plan for a 75K system and a 150K system just for your amusement???



Yes.


Not "just for my amusement", but for making it transparent for me as well as for others.


Like:


"For $150K you will get total lighting, HVAC , sprinkler, A/V control from anywhere in the universe. You will also get 5 150" touch-screen LCD Plasma CRT TVs and HD DVRs anywhere you want.


For $75K you will get total lighting, HVAC , sprinkler, A/V control from anywhere in the universe but only if you have an Internet access. You will also get 5 75" touch-screen LCD Plasma CRT TVs and HD DVRs anywhere you want, but they won't be the latest models.


Anytime you have a problem we will fix it in 12 hours, otherwise we will give you $1000 back for every 24 hours problem would remain unresolved".


Otherwise it is just "Psstt...wanna home automation for $100K?"


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Brian B* /forum/post/12881274
> 
> 
> How does the price of the home impact how much you think the bid will be?
> 
> 
> B.



It doesn't. The size of the home and client's demands affect the system price. Depending on the market, you could make assumptions about the size of the home. That same home could be 5x as much in another market, but the systems would be of similar cost.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *galileo2000* /forum/post/12881328
> 
> 
> I asked you a very simple question.
> 
> 
> I was hoping to get some sort of the intelligent answer.
> 
> 
> I was wrong.
> 
> 
> Never mind, good luck with you future contracts.



You're full of it. You asked a rhetorical question. You got the answer you wanted so that you could make your point. If you have a point to make, then go ahead and make it instead of ploying that you wanted to engage in a discussion.


----------



## galileo2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12882693
> 
> 
> You're full of it. You asked a rhetorical question. You got the answer you wanted so that you could make your point. If you have a point to make, then go ahead and make it instead of ploying that you wanted to engage in a discussion.



I don't know you.


You don't know me.


I asked you a question.


If you did not want to answer, you could just ignore it.


Yet you had chosen to throw insults instead and make accusations as well.


Jesus still loves you, but not for long.


----------



## Brian B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12882663
> 
> 
> It doesn't. The size of the home and client's demands affect the system price. Depending on the market, you could make assumptions about the size of the home. That same home could be 5x as much in another market, but the systems would be of similar cost.



I understand, but my question was directed to galileo2000 since he mentioned it when asking about a 75K or 150K system.


Thanks,


B.


----------



## Brian B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12882663
> 
> 
> It doesn't. The size of the home and client's demands affect the system price. Depending on the market, you could make assumptions about the size of the home. That same home could be 5x as much in another market, but the systems would be of similar cost.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *galileo2000* /forum/post/12881433
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> Not "just for my amusement", but for making it transparent for me as well as for others.
> 
> 
> Like:
> 
> 
> "For $150K you will get total lighting, HVAC , sprinkler, A/V control from anywhere in the universe. You will also get 5 150" touch-screen LCD Plasma CRT TVs and HD DVRs anywhere you want.
> 
> 
> For $75K you will get total lighting, HVAC , sprinkler, A/V control from anywhere in the universe but only if you have an Internet access. You will also get 5 75" touch-screen LCD Plasma CRT TVs and HD DVRs anywhere you want, but they won't be the latest models.
> 
> 
> Anytime you have a problem we will fix it in 12 hours, otherwise we will give you $1000 back for every 24 hours problem would remain unresolved".
> 
> 
> Otherwise it is just "Psstt...wanna home automation for $100K?"



But he does custom systems. Not only that but installation can very tremendously depending on whether the job is retro or new construction, what's being installed, and the amount of equipment, etc etc. How could he come up with what you are asking without an interview/design, etc?


What you are asking is akin to saying: "Here's $150. I need groceries. What can I get?" The possibilities are only limited by what he products he offers and what he intends to do with them.


B.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Brian B* /forum/post/12892080
> 
> 
> How could he come up with what you are asking without an interview/design, etc?



BINGO. Thank you Brian, yes that is the case.


----------



## SBSmarthomes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Brian B* /forum/post/12892080
> 
> 
> "Here's $150. I need groceries. What can I get?"



Brian,


You're in LA so should already know the answer to this.










In Southern CA $150 buys you the following groceries:


Gallon of Milk

Dozen Eggs

Loaf of Bread

12-Pack of Beer (domestic)


If you're lucky enough to have some change in your pocket to add, maybe you can also pick up a pack of gum at the check-out...


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *galileo2000* /forum/post/12891834
> 
> 
> I asked you a question.
> 
> 
> If you did not want to answer, you could just ignore it.
> 
> 
> Yet you had chosen to throw insults instead and make accusations as well.



I would have been happy to answer the question, except for the statement:



> Quote:
> I am sure such a statement would do nothing but promote your services.



I shouldn't even have to explain this since the implication is so apparent. As I said before, if you have a point to make, then make it without the semantics. The only points you've made so far are fallacies or outright lies. You're also demanding that large system installations be distilled into a sentence or two for comparison, which is assinine.


I would have been happy to expound in depth, as I have no aversion to long winded posts, but your antagonistic statement in your first post told me all I need to know about your intentions. Your continued antagonism proves my point: you're not here to discuss or debate anything.


Again, do you have any cogent points to make or any honest questions to ask instead of getting embroiled in a little mudslinging with moi? If so, make them instead of cryptic one liners and insults. If you think you're going to get under my skin or upset me, you're going to be disappointed.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> The average consumer for this kind of work could never operate the systems using most of the templates that I have seen on ANY of the HA software sites. While they are very good and completely understandable to the creator, Joe customer stares at it and says, "what the hell is a Denon? How do I play Metallica? How do I get Emeril on the TV in the Kitchen”
> 
> 
> They need an interface that is so simple that grandma can do it without calling you.
> 
> 
> That's what the CI gets paid for......




Yes the interface is simple, my 72 year mother who I fly in once a month to see her grand daughter uses my system without problems. I dont remember giving her a 2 day training session on it either.


GUIs are simplistic and should be replicated without much cost. I dont know if you were implying that only the CIs and only spending large amounts of money would get something workable? I would say that would be a false assumption.


I guess my case is one of which I have developed software succesfully for 20 years, I have written warehouse management systems for users that dont even have 8th grade education and heck you should try different langauge barriers.



In the end I will hold to the fact that cost, equipment available, software available a customer can have a GREAT 100% reliable system full system for under 50K.....low end would be around 25K. It depends on how many zones and how many lighting controls a person needs.


This stuff is not rocket science either.


100K system does not have better sound or better video either, purely a subjective debate since the home owner would not be able to tell the difference...I have done this over and over through the years its not debated any more.


For someone to argue about value in a 100K system is laughable....they are what the rest of us normal people call luxury systems and luxury means only one thing to me....WASTED money on FLUFF, FLUFF, FLUFF. Its like a 100K car vs a 40K car. I have had them all but I know what the FLUFF is. I will buy the 40K car and have 60K worth of "FUN" throughout the year.


Maybe that is the problem here, people are trying to sell their systems as "VALUE". Hey, just be honest and say its LUXURY, BEST OF THE BEST and tell your customer they are paying to get something no one else has. Your customer will like that and they are the type of people that already need the "LUXURY" stuff in their life.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> I applaud you, IVB, and all the rest here that do it themselves. But you are NOT the CI’s customer, so it is unfair to try and tell them that they are not running their business correctly. And please understand that I know there are bad ones. And rip-offs. But that is not what we’re talking about here.
> 
> And if you had spent half the little time I’ve spent at customer's homes that were shopping for these systems, you'd see it too.



I honestly dont care how anyone runs their business. They can do what they want but when someone starts a thread and there is complaining about the "Customer". We the customer have a right to post our opinion.


I started builing a 750K house in apr 2006, I wanted Full HA but the ONLY options and quotes I got were in the 50K and above range. The line items where crazy too, flat panels for 5 to 8K depending on what? Would they sell a Panny for 2K, noooooo (yes, I bought my Panny 50" plasma for 2K in Dec 2006. No profit for them in that is there! Would they sell UMPCs for 1K?? Why when people are buying 3K touchscreens. Lighting solution was even funnier, these guys simply OVER QUOTE and put ligthing controls in places that NEVER need them. Bathrooms?? lol, $25 motion sensor switch from HD does pretty well there.



Hey, Im a great customer for something, I spend 70K on my pool because I have a 30 degree slop and the retaining wall alone was 20K and it was 60 yards of concrete!!!! I have pics. I spend money when its worth it.


Im happy in the end that I did it myself. I got to enjoy a new hobby (stopped gambling online too







) and even more so I get to enjoy the replies I constantly get from CIs over and over still trying to explain they offer value. I wish they would just say they offer LUXURY items, Im cool with that but they offer little value in terms of $$$/perfomance.


----------



## bigpapa

Penn,


You continue to place your value judgments on others, which is what you complain about CI's doing (and are wrong at that as well). Since you don't value it, _therefore it has no value to anybody else._


You also don't understand the benefit of having lighting control in bathrooms, cleverly assuming that a motion detector would be the best choice in there. Motion detectors are only good for walk in closets and pantries, but nowhere else. The benefit of having control in the bathroom is: the bathroom can be turned off in an All Off, Away, or turned on in any Party or Entertaining scene: usually you have the bath light and hallway turn on to 25% to lead a person to the bath, especially if they've had a few drinks. Pressing the bath light button will turn it on to it's full value; when they leave, they hit the button and the bathroom returns to 25%. The bath fan can be on a timer to run long enough to do it's business then turn off. If you're already putting in a lighting system already, it's actually very cost effective to do. These features are beneficial, they improve life and make it easier, abeit just a smidge.


Diminishing them as 'luxuries' does nothing more than validate your own opinion that these features are either not important or only needed if you're a rich person who delights in having things others don't. These features aren't needed or beneficial to others, only if others don't have it. That's just plain stupid.


You thought they were trying to sell you crap you don't need since anybody smart such as yourself would put motion detectors in bathrooms. Of course, we're motivated to put lighting control in bathrooms because we just want to sell equipment, according to you.


That's ignorance, plain and simple. As intelligent as you are, you continue to make mistakes and assumptions about CI's and our industry based in nothing more than your obvious personal biases and narrow experience base. You will say it's your opinion, and I will say it's mine.


At least my opinion isn't based in serial incorrect stereotyping of various groups of people and my own personal projections, rounded out by a base misunderstanding of our industry. But being wrong isn't that bad, we are all wrong at one time or another. It's that you have repeatedly been presented opposing viewpoints based in reason and real experience and yet you can't find yourself to back off your untenable platform based in ignorance. I've provided many instances of where you were ignorant, but instead you imply that I'm 'just calling you ignorant.' My question is, do you believe you're own BS?


----------



## samgreco




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12895097
> 
> 
> Im happy in the end that I did it myself. I got to enjoy a new hobby (stopped gambling online too
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) and even more so I get to enjoy the replies I constantly get from CIs over and over still trying to explain they offer value. I wish they would just say they offer LUXURY items, Im cool with that but they offer little value in terms of $$$/perfomance.




And I think that in that statement somewhere is my point. I am like you in that I do it myself. And I'm WAY cheaper than you. I can't afford a $750k house, let alone the pool. I live in a sub $300k house. I am not the CIs customer either. You and I CAN and WILL do it ourselves. But most of the people I know can't and/or won't. Heck, most of the people I know get this glossy eyed look anytime I mention the word computer, let alone automation.


In the end, if the customer is happy shelling out whatever they shell out to the CI, and the CI is happy, then the CI did good. It doesn't matter what you or I think. And if thier customer is happy, they weren't ripped off. Simple.


What I fail to understand is why these discussions ALWAYS have to get so freaking nasty. I haven't heard anyone attacking anyone's mother, sheesh. These are differing opinions and no one is forcing anyone to pay them money.


In the end, I think that I probably think alot like you penngray, I just don't blame it on the CI. My cheapness is my shortcoming, not thiers.


And as for the simple GUI thing, I wasn't talking about yours. I don't even know what it looks like. It was a point that I was trying to make. I applaud you for making a good one. Just most of the ones I've seen aren't. And what makes sense to me NEVER seems to make sense to my wife. Go figure.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/12895097
> 
> 
> Lighting solution was even funnier, these guys simply OVER QUOTE and put ligthing controls in places that NEVER need them. Bathrooms?? lol, $25 motion sensor switch from HD does pretty well there.



You're kidding right?










It would not occur to me to put a $25 motion sensor switch from HD in my house next to $$$ Lutron dimmers. Talk about looking cobbled together.


Hell, I'm annoyed that the Lutron Maestro Timers have orange LED's vs. the Homeworks Maestros that have green LED's. And the timers only control out of the way closets and the only reason they aren't Homeworks Maestros is I don't want to have to buy a second processor.


As for the CI wanting to put lighting controls in places you don't want them, then tell them not to put them there when they are working on their proposal. Communication is a must.


Some thing tells me you get exactly what you pay for.


----------



## digiphotonerd

As a card-carrying DIYer (check my posts over the last 6 years) who started my own home automation business half a year ago, I think I can sum up this thread mathematically. For any given individual (call him Joe):


TotalCostOfAutomation = EquipCost + LaborCost + VendorProfit + (MyTimeSpent * MyTimeValue) , where


EquipCost = what the equipment itself costs

LaborCost = pure labor cost of having someone else work on the system

VendorProfit = what the equipment and/or labor provider earns on the project

MyTimeSpent = number of hours Joe spends on the system (researching, designing, installing, programming, debugging, training, or learning)

MyTimeValue = what it "costs" Joe to work on it himself, in $/hr (can be a negative number if he really enjoys tinkering)


For most "normal" people (which excludes just about everyone reading this ;-), MyTimeSpent would be a fairly large number -- approaching infinity for many non-technical folks (believe it or not, not everyone is a nerd). That does have a large impact on the overall total.


For hardcore DIYers, though, the only relevant factor is EquipCost -- LaborCost and VendorProfit go to zero, and even large values of MyTimeSpent don't add to the total cost, since the DIYer's "MyTimeValue" is zero or negative.


The biggest mistake that combative DIYers make, is over-simplifying the equation to read "TotalCost = EquipCost + VendorProfit".


The second biggest mistake is asserting that EquipCost is purely a function of the high-level feature set that the equipment implements (e.g. a TV is a TV is a TV). In reality, it IS ALSO a function of the quality of the end result. Of course, rational people can debate the partial derivatives (especially w.r.t. $1000 speaker cables), but discounting quality differences entirely is illogical.


It's easy to see why people who make those mistakes keep asserting that you'd have to be an idiot to pay $X for a home automation system. Of course, there are scammers in every line of work, but isn't it possible that for many (most?) people, paying $X to a CI is the overall least expensive way to get the quality that they desire?


- digiphotonerd


----------



## galileo2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *digiphotonerd* /forum/post/12900335
> 
> 
> As a card-carrying DIYer (check my posts over the last 6 years) who started my own home automation business half a year ago, I think I can sum up this thread mathematically. For any given individual (call him Joe):
> 
> 
> TotalCostOfAutomation = EquipCost + LaborCost + VendorProfit + (MyTimeSpent * MyTimeValue) , where
> 
> 
> EquipCost = what the equipment itself costs
> 
> LaborCost = pure labor cost of having someone else work on the system
> 
> VendorProfit = what the equipment and/or labor provider earns on the project
> 
> MyTimeSpent = number of hours Joe spends on the system (researching, designing, installing, programming, debugging, training, or learning)
> 
> MyTimeValue = what it "costs" Joe to work on it himself, in $/hr (can be a negative number if he really enjoys tinkering)
> 
> 
> For most "normal" people (which excludes just about everyone reading this ;-), MyTimeSpent would be a fairly large number -- approaching infinity for many non-technical folks (believe it or not, not everyone is a nerd). That does have a large impact on the overall total.
> 
> 
> For hardcore DIYers, though, the only relevant factor is EquipCost -- LaborCost and VendorProfit go to zero, and even large values of MyTimeSpent don't add to the total cost, since the DIYer's "MyTimeValue" is zero or negative.
> 
> 
> The biggest mistake that combative DIYers make, is over-simplifying the equation to read "TotalCost = EquipCost + VendorProfit".
> 
> 
> The second biggest mistake is asserting that EquipCost is purely a function of the high-level feature set that the equipment implements (e.g. a TV is a TV is a TV). In reality, it IS ALSO a function of the quality of the end result. Of course, rational people can debate the partial derivatives (especially w.r.t. $1000 speaker cables), but discounting quality differences entirely is illogical.
> 
> 
> It's easy to see why people who make those mistakes keep asserting that you'd have to be an idiot to pay $X for a home automation system. Of course, there are scammers in every line of work, but isn't it possible that for many (most?) people, paying $X to a CI is the overall least expensive way to get the quality that they desire?
> 
> 
> - digiphotonerd



Nice equations.


One thing is missing though:


MyTimeSpent * MyTimeValue


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *galileo2000* /forum/post/12902944
> 
> 
> I really hope *bigpapa* (no matter what he thinks and says about me) and ppl like him stay in business and have enough rich folks willing to spend whatever they are charged. I wouldn't call them idiots either.
> 
> 
> There is a market for everything - so far.



You're first statement has a slight passive aggressive tinge to it. What's your deal? Come on, say what you really mean.







Who would you not call the idiots, the rich people who spend whatever they are charged or the CI's for catering to them?


I'll bite on the second one as well: what do you mean by *'so far?'*


It seems that once again a DIYer is validating themselves for going DIY, as if CI's invalidating DIYers. That's just not try. The problem is there are a few, very few, DIYers who invalidate CI's and the business of custom electronics since they themselves don't value the CI.


DIY worked for you, that's great. (not sarcasm) Nothing wrong with that. DIY is not always the best choice, for various reasons. I don't understand why you seem to need to validate the path you've chosen. It seems you went DIY for the right reasons, glad you're happy. Don't go Penngrey on me and validate your choice by making statements to the effect that 'CI's are ripping people off so you should go DIY instead of wasting your money,' among other gems of wisdom from our accomplished DIY citizen.


----------



## galileo2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12907069
> 
> 
> You're first statement has a slight passive aggressive tinge to it. What's your deal? Come on, say what you really mean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who would you not call the idiots, the rich people who spend whatever they are charged or the CI's for catering to them?



the rich people.



> Quote:
> I'll bite on the second one as well: what do you mean by *'so far?'*



Don't you think sometime in this century someone will come out with the unified HA solution and house without this solution would be the same as the house w/o plumbing or electricity for the consumers?



> Quote:
> It seems that once again a DIYer is validating themselves for going DIY, as if CI's invalidating DIYers. That's just not try. The problem is there are a few, very few, DIYers who invalidate CI's and the business of custom electronics since they themselves don't value the CI.
> 
> 
> DIY worked for you, that's great. (not sarcasm) Nothing wrong with that. DIY is not always the best choice, for various reasons. I don't understand why you seem to need to validate the path you've chosen. It seems you went DIY for the right reasons, glad you're happy. Don't go Penngrey on me and validate your choice by making statements to the effect that 'CI's are ripping people off so you should go DIY instead of wasting your money,' among other gems of wisdom from our accomplished DIY citizen.



I am not validating anything. I was just wondering what could I get if I had $75K to $150K laying around in terms of HA. I did not get the straight answer, but I believe I got the idea.


Peace.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12907069
> 
> 
> It seems that once again a DIYer is validating themselves for going DIY, as if CI's invalidating DIYers. That's just not try. The problem is there are a few, very few, DIYers who invalidate CI's and the business of custom electronics since they themselves don't value the CI.



not to be too picky, but, it does kind of look to me like CI's are trying to invalidate DiY:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/11209528
> 
> 
> You must not have read the "two different systems" part of my thread.
> 
> 
> I design systems that are more complicated than the customers can do themselves. If your system is simple enough to DIY, then please do. I know lots of people and customers that have the ability to learn how to do this, but they would rather pay me to put it in, then trying to learn all this, then trying it themselves. If you have the time, then go for it!





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *xxtypeoxx* /forum/post/12762560
> 
> 
> Now when you really screw up your system from not being trained on how to use the software what do you do?
> 
> 
> Try calling Elan Tech support and see how far you get.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12769136
> 
> 
> Because the vast majority of them would screw it up, or call tech support for tweaker stuff. You think Russound is expensive now, if they go full DIY then it will really cost some coin. This is why it's installer only. If you don't agree with it, then that's fine don't buy it. Telling us we or Russound is wrong might make you feel better, but it's not going to happen.



note, I am assuming those three random quotes above are all CI's... but anyway, it sure seems like they are saying

A) DiY couldn't possibly create a professional system.

B) our poor little DiY brains will explode if we try to do anything too difficult, and we couldn't possibly comprehend how to do anything more complicated then plug in an X10 module... and if we try, the whole industry will collapse in upon itself because of all the support calls we poor incompetent DiY's will place...


so you really don't think the CI's have been invalidating the DiY's this whole time?


oh and if we are keeping score, it is:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *#1trunkslammer* /forum/post/12754444
> 
> 
> In the battle of CI's vs DIYer's the score is:
> 
> 
> CI's: 1
> 
> 
> 
> DIYer's: -2 (for a stupid analogy)


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *galileo2000* /forum/post/12907665
> 
> 
> I did not get the straight answer, but I believe I got the idea.



You haven't been straight from the beginning. You post in cryptic one liners with a slathering of loose inference and implication.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12907973
> 
> 
> so you really don't think the CI's have been invalidating the DiY's this whole time?



Absolutely not. You proof so far does not prove your assertion, other than a few CI's are lacking in tact and sometimes have a proclivity to be childish. The point is that CI's like to invalidate misinformation and bad advice, and I wouldn't waste our time posting the volume of innocently ignorant or willfully malicious comments from DIYer to CI. Of my recent squabbles with more Floridian and Franciscan friends from the other side of the isle, I've never put anybody down for DIY, not at all. Of dispute is the reasoning for it, or in many cases, the irrational reasons for it. To some of those reasons I dispute.


CI's escoriating prospective DIYers, whether tactfully or not, doesn't mean they are invalidating people for DIY. They're actually giving advice, but a few take it personal.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12909699
> 
> 
> Absolutely not. You proof so far does not prove your assertion, other than a few CI's are lacking in tact and sometimes have a proclivity to be childish.



hey, I resemble that remark... well not the CI bit... but still... or are you now claiming that CI's can be better at being childish then diy'ers?

as for my "proof", I would consider it more as examples... but hey, you are the expert, if you want to call it proof, so be it...


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12909699
> 
> 
> The point is that CI's like to invalidate misinformation and bad advice



and they also like to invalidate anything they don't agree with... or they consider a threat...


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12909699
> 
> 
> I wouldn't waste our time posting the volume of innocently ignorant or willfully malicious comments from DIYer to CI. Of my recent squabbles with more Floridian and Franciscan friends from the other side of the isle, I've never put anybody down for DIY, not at all. Of dispute is the reasoning for it, or in many cases, the irrational reasons for it. To some of those reasons I dispute.



so when a DIY says something that a CI disagrees with, it is either ignorant or malicious, but when a CI does it, at worst it is childish?? I really am not following your logic here??

you don't consider telling all DIY'ers that their little brains will explode if they try to do something so complicated as to install a product that needs A CI's special tools/training (not your exact words, but same intention) is in any way putting down DIY?


but I do not dispute that sometimes people do choose DIY for the wrong reasons... but they tend to live and learn...


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12909699
> 
> 
> CI's escoriating prospective DIYers, whether tactfully or not, doesn't mean they are invalidating people for DIY. They're actually giving advice, but a few take it personal.



I really don't get this at all, you are saying that denouncing someone for thinking about going DIY, is in fact advice, and that in no way is invalidating DIY? gee I wonder why anyone would take offense at that? but somehow DIY is still OK?

I must be seriously missing your point though...


----------



## herdfan

If a CI does his own house and doesn't pay himself, is he now a DIY'er?


Sorry, had to lighten the mood. It just seems the DIY'ers are attacking the CI's for their business model. If you don't like it, don't buy it, but for now their business model seems to work.


I am a DIY'er. And proud of it. But I am what I am for a couple of reasons. One is I am in a CI nether region and we really don't have any. Second, I enjoy running wires, programming things and changing button functions etc.. I also extended a room in my own basement drywall and all. Why? Because I enjoy it. Call it reverse snobery. My hoity toity (I have no idea if I spelled that right.) neighbors come over and see my handiwork and I know the wives think less of their husbands and they know I could just write the check if I chose to.


Then there are the "other" DIY'ers. Those that want all the fancy toys, but really can't afford them and as a result, attack those who are their barrier to the toys, the CI. Now not all feel this way, but there is enough venom being directed in the CI's direction that I believe this to be true.


It really is as simple as if you want to play, you need to pay. Or get yourself an ebay account. There is tons of Crestron gear available, so knock yourself out.


----------



## bigpapa

Somewhat,


You're not getting my point. Or, you think you are and are just playing semantics or parsing. Let's restart.


Both sides have gone negative (again) and it would be foolish to start taking tabs. But your point that 'CI's are just trying to invalidate DIYers because their heads will explode' is silly. Your quotes of CI's didn't support that premise. I invalidate your point you just made. Does that mean that I invalidate all that you do, as a DIY, because you're DIY? No, that's silly. But that's what you're essentially asserting. I invalidated your point with reason, not because I negatively inferred you were a DIY and your head explodes at the thought of 14/2 vs 12/2.


People invalidate things they don't agree with for different reasons. Some warranted, some not. I don't agree with many of the ways that some CI's have voiced objection, but the objections and reasons for them were warranted for the most part. It's extremely rare for CI to just diminish somebody who proclaims they want to DIY. It would be silly to do that. But most posts announcing intentions to DIY come with more statements announcing intent. This is where the the rules change, as well as judgments and advice.


The intent is the issue.


When a prospective DIY says things like 'I just got this bid from a CI and it's way overpriced, can I shop online and just do it myself,' telling them that they are being stupid or ignorant may be good advice. If it's a 5.1 not much so, but a distributed audio system with multiple complex sources and UI's, then it gets complicated. We know that because we do this for a living. Another good one is when they thing DIY will just save them a buck, obviously ignoring the learning curb and loss of time... moths flying into the zapper. Maybe we shouldn't call them stupid, but the fact is, they are.


Yet, when a guy says 'I want to DIY because I want to learn, I don't mind taking the time, I like DIY for the satisfaction, etc' where's all the CI's bagging on him? Rare, if at all.


The point is, if you choose to go DIY for the wrong reasons, you're going to get crap from CI's, especially if you're reasoning is because you're getting raped on markup or because you think CI's are crooks, as a stereotype. See a few buffons I wrangle with regularly. Not only are you being utterly stupid, your calling out the integrity of some guys who do this for a living and try to live the righteous path. Some of the guys I know to be solid upstanding guys who value their integrity, but you wouldn't know it because they lost their cool on a forum with some guy who inferred the were crooks. Our opinions are invalidated because we're pros, biased by grotesque margin we charge or because we work for stupid rich people and DIY's challenge us, or any of the other completely idiotic premises I've heard. The shocking thing is that I hear idiotic comments come from otherwise intelligent people.


If you want to go DIY because you like learning, want to spend the time, and value the experience for what it actually is, I respect that and just about every other pro would as well. We love to help those guys and that's part of the reason we're on AVS.


Most DIYers respect what CI's do and what they bring to the table. It's a few bad apples that get the most press and start the DIY vs CI wars. I've said before and I will say again, they started it and propagate the wars with their ignorance and biases. It's fair to say that some CI's lose their cool and play into it, so it's not entirely one sided.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12912766
> 
> 
> Somewhat,
> 
> 
> You're not getting my point. Or, you think you are and are just playing semantics or parsing. Let's restart.



you are correct, I am not getting your point, first you say that you are not against DIY, and then you say it is perfectly fine for a CI to "excoriate" someone for the mere indiscretion of considering DIY...









nice veiled insult btw... I am either not getting you point, or I only think I am?

I will need to borrow that some time... well at least you proved your point about CI's sometimes being helpful...


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12912766
> 
> 
> Both sides have gone negative (again) and it would be foolish to start taking tabs. But your point that 'CI's are just trying to invalidate DIYers because their heads will explode' is silly. Your quotes of CI's didn't support that premise. I invalidate your point you just made. Does that mean that I invalidate all that you do, as a DIY, because you're DIY? No, that's silly. But that's what you're essentially asserting. I invalidated your point with reason, not because I negatively inferred you were a DIY and your head explodes at the thought of 14/2 vs 12/2.



here is another thing I disagree with, a CI (in the case you) thinks that just by saying you invalidated my point, doesn't make it true...

the quote from a CI stating that there is _no way that a DIY could ever hope to achieve the same level of results as he does_ really can only be taken as CI 's (or at least that one) believe they are better then DIY's, and you provided no facts or opinion on on that to invalidate it...

don't get me wrong, he is in the business, he should believe it, but he shouldn't come to a public forum and try to get me to believe it... that should just be between him and his potential clients...

as far as the other quotes to the point of _DIY's couldn't possibly learn how to use certain manufactures tools, and it would cause so many help calls to the manufactures that they would all go out of business_ you have stated many times that you believe that(or some version of it) to be the truth, I have stated many times that I do not... I am sure you believe that your beliefs by their very nature invalidate mine, because as you have repeatedly stated, I am ignorant...

I on the other hand generally don't go around labeling any of your beliefs as invalid, I have merely tried unsuccessfully to change the ones I don't agree with...


as for keeping tabs, I agree that would be pointless... for the record my "proof" as you so called it, was just a random sampling, and I am sure if someone got bored they could make a random sampling of the DIY side that proved their point... but that was not the point...




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12912766
> 
> 
> People invalidate things they don't agree with for different reasons. Some warranted, some not. I don't agree with many of the ways that some CI's have voiced objection, but the objections and reasons for them were warranted for the most part. It's extremely rare for CI to just diminish somebody who proclaims they want to DIY. It would be silly to do that. But most posts announcing intentions to DIY come with more statements announcing intent. This is where the the rules change, as well as judgments and advice.



I agree with this, but both side have made the same missteps... or perhaps equal, but opposite might be a better description?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12912766
> 
> 
> The point is, if you choose to go DIY for the wrong reasons, you're going to get crap from CI's, especially if you're reasoning is because you're getting raped on markup or because you think CI's are crooks, as a stereotype. See a few buffons I wrangle with regularly. Not only are you being utterly stupid, your calling out the integrity of some guys who do this for a living and try to live the righteous path. Some of the guys I know to be solid upstanding guys who value their integrity, but you wouldn't know it because they lost their cool on a forum with some guy who inferred the were crooks. Our opinions are invalidated because we're pros, biased by grotesque margin we charge or because we work for stupid rich people and DIY's challenge us, or any of the other completely idiotic premises I've heard. The shocking thing is that I hear idiotic comments come from otherwise intelligent people.
> 
> 
> If you want to go DIY because you like learning, want to spend the time, and value the experience for what it actually is, I respect that and just about every other pro would as well. We love to help those guys and that's part of the reason we're on AVS.
> 
> 
> Most DIYers respect what CI's do and what they bring to the table. It's a few bad apples that get the most press and start the DIY vs CI wars. I've said before and I will say again, they started it and propagate the wars with their ignorance and biases. It's fair to say that some CI's lose their cool and play into it, so it's not entirely one sided.



who are you to choose what reasons are blessed, and which ones are wrong? is that a power only granted to the almighty CI's?









I may agree with with you, but if someone wants to go down the wrong path, there is always the possibility that it could work out just fine for them, it may not, but instead of calling them stupid, I just point out some of the difficulties they may experience... but then technically, I suppose I never claimed to be anything other than ignorant...

as for the integrity of solid upstanding guys on a righteous path, if that is what they truly are, then their integrity will remain just fine... I doubt it needs much looking after at all...


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *herdfan* /forum/post/12912275
> 
> 
> Then there are the "other" DIY'ers. Those that want all the fancy toys, but really can't afford them and as a result, attack those who are their barrier to the toys, the CI. Now not all feel this way, but there is enough venom being directed in the CI's direction that I believe this to be true.



valid point...






what if a CI does his own house, but gets his equipment from ebay? can he still use his crestron tools to program it?


----------



## galileo2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12914185
> 
> 
> you are correct, I am not getting your point, first you say that you are not against DIY, and then you say it is perfectly fine for a CI to "excoriate" someone for the mere indiscretion of considering DIY...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nice veiled insult btw... I am either not getting you point, or I only think I am?
> 
> I will need to borrow that some time... well at least you proved your point about CI's sometimes being helpful...
> 
> 
> here is another thing I disagree with, a CI (in the case you) thinks that just by saying you invalidated my point, doesn't make it true...
> 
> the quote from a CI stating that there is _no way that a DIY could ever hope to achieve the same level of results as he does_ really can only be taken as CI 's (or at least that one) believe they are better then DIY's, and you provided no facts or opinion on on that to invalidate it...
> 
> don't get me wrong, he is in the business, he should believe it, but he shouldn't come to a public forum and try to get me to believe it... that should just be between him and his potential clients...
> 
> as far as the other quotes to the point of _DIY's couldn't possibly learn how to use certain manufactures tools, and it would cause so many help calls to the manufactures that they would all go out of business_ you have stated many times that you believe that(or some version of it) to be the truth, I have stated many times that I do not... I am sure you believe that your beliefs by their very nature invalidate mine, because as you have repeatedly stated, I am ignorant...
> 
> I on the other hand generally don't go around labeling any of your beliefs as invalid, I have merely tried unsuccessfully to change the ones I don't agree with...
> 
> 
> as for keeping tabs, I agree that would be pointless... for the record my "proof" as you so called it, was just a random sampling, and I am sure if someone got bored they could make a random sampling of the DIY side that proved their point... but that was not the point...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this, but both side have made the same missteps... or perhaps equal, but opposite might be a better description?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who are you to choose what reasons are blessed, and which ones are wrong? is that a power only granted to the almighty CI's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I may agree with with you, but if someone wants to go down the wrong path, there is always the possibility that it could work out just fine for them, it may not, but instead of calling them stupid, I just point out some of the difficulties they may experience... but then technically, I suppose I never claimed to be anything other than ignorant...
> 
> as for the integrity of solid upstanding guys on a righteous path, if that is what they truly are, then their integrity will remain just fine... I doubt it needs much looking after at all...



I have to repeat after the great man:


"Well I am certainly wiser than this man. It is only too likely that neither of us has any knowledge to boast of; but he thinks that he knows something which he does not know, whereas I am quite conscious of my ignorance. At any rate it seems that I am wiser than he is to this small extent, that I do not think that I know what I do not know."


--Socrates


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12914185
> 
> 
> you are correct, I am not getting your point, first you say that you are not against DIY, and then you say it is perfectly fine for a CI to "excoriate" someone for the mere indiscretion of considering DIY...



You still don't get it. You can take that as an insult or not. I think you get it but you're being argumentative and twisting my statements around. I don't have time to read the rest of your post now but figure it's more of the same.


My point is that CI's are warranted to excoriate or give advice, depending on how you look at it, for people choosing to go DIY for certain particular reasons which might include:


Doing it just to save money because they think they're getting raped on margin


Doing it to save money but not understanding that it will cost them a bunch of time


Doing it because 'it's not rocket science.' While literally true, the statement implies it's easy to do, while in actuality it's not.


Again, it's the reasons behind going DIY, not merely because someone went DIY. I thought I explained it pretty well.


----------



## Brian B

It seems this thread has degenerated into a CI vs. DIYer bickering match.


Just for fun I went back and reread the first few pages of the thread. The poster's original issue: He spent time working with a possible prospect (whom he complied with their request to design a Crestron system for) and then they went with a completely different type of system claiming his design was "too expensive."


After that followed a lot of good information coming from both sides and all of it seemed somehow related to better understanding the business and the customer/professional relationship.


Some of the observations/truths I've come across from reading this thread recently:


1) DIYers are not customers of CI's. I.e. if you can do it youself and do, then you have no need for CI's and are not prospects for CI's. Since you are not customers for CI's much of your personal beliefs/opinions are not relevant to CI's, their business model, etc BECAUSE you are not a potential customer.


Stepping outside from personal feelings IVB, for instance, gave excellent advice/support early on in the thread even though he is not a customer. Others who say they understand the purpose and value the CI offers seem to understand the issues. The CI needs to understand there will always be people who will not need nor be interested in, and/or not value the services offered by a CI. Trying to convince them otherwise is fruitless.


2) Sure, there are people who can DIY, but there are many more people that cannot (at the level we are talking about in this thread). I would hope that most people would agree with this without any sort of proof and that it applies towards most trades/professions--those that require schooling or not.


3) Of the people who are in different industries (computers for instance) who continue to propound upon how their business models are similiar (and should be adopted) seem to be wrong. This comes from personal experience and is based on all the respondents who are successful CI's in this thread. I.e. CI's charge a markup on products and charge a healthy amount for labor. In return, the customer's (should) get a high level of service, professionalism, a highly functional system, and products that are serviceable, high quality, from reputable manufacturers, and not seconds, refurbished, out-of-date, etc.


Nobody has suggested that CI's should not charge for their labor (from what I remember reading), however some have suggested that products should be sold at "cost." Since I would argue that the CI is in business to make money, and that money is made on marking up product, that it makes sense unless it prevents sales from being made. From my experience, slight discounting and/or building value in the service offered by a CI is one way to tilt the scale towards profitability far away from the the no-markup model. Not everyone will agree, but it seems that everyone who is a CI in this thread does. As for charging too much for labor, see 4) below.


4) If a product or service costs $X, there will always someone who thinks that it is a "rip off" and others who think it is fair or acceptable. Those that accept it are client, those that do not, are not.


5) Blanket statements to queries from prospects by DIYers to forego use of a CI constitutes "bad advice." Why? Because, level of competence of the DIYer and sophistication of the project are of prime importance. I believe this is what bigpapa, somewhatlost, and galileo are going back and forth about.


For this I will give an example. At the company I work for we had a customer who was interested in a multi-room audio system with some automation functionality. He came in after speaking to a couple other firms. His first interest was Crestron. He seemed serious and someone we could work with, so we spent a few hours putting together a preliminary bid--we chalked this up to the cost of doing business. It came out to >$100,000 for the project and he decided it was too much (even though I believe he could have afforded it if he wanted to). It turns out he is a gifted computer programmer and wanted to take the project in a more DIY direction.


A long story short, after looking at some systems that didn't have proprietary software, we decided to have some hardware custom made and the client agreed to be responsible for all the programming to make it work. He spec'd out particular touchscreens, computers, etc. We did wiring and installation, supplied all the other equipment, racking, speakers, etc. It turned out to be a successful project because we made sure to supply the right products, and he is an extremely competent programmer. Otherwise, the project would have been a complete failure. In my 17 years in the A/V business he is the only person I have ever met that could have accomplished the system design he wanted AND he got a ton of help from us.


Many of the DIYers on here--those who have posted in this thread--could have done the whole system. You are very few and far between. I think sometimes you just don't realize it.


Not to sound like I want to have the last word, but why continue this thread when neither side seems to be getting through to the other?



Brian


----------



## simon

Thank you for all the useful information here.

I am a CI in the UK and some of it will be of help.


----------



## bigpapa

galileo,


That was probably your point from the beginning. Why didn't you just say it without the semantics and a quote from and ancient wise man?


----------



## Somewhatlost

@bigpapa

I don't believe I have twisted any of your words.









and you are right about me not getting your point.. but at least to me it seems that you are saying one thing, and the next sentence down you say the opposite...










@Brian B,

thats actually very well thought out, and well expressed... I tend to agree with all that you have stated...

not that my approval counts for much...


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12921053
> 
> 
> @bigpapa
> 
> I don't believe I have twisted any of your words.



OK then, fair enough. If you're being honest, then I'm wrong. I'll take your word for it.




> Quote:
> and you are right about me not getting your point.. but at least to me it seems that you are saying one thing, and the next sentence down you say the opposite...



If you understand the context of what I'm stating, then I don't understand why it's hard to follow.


You thought I'm saying that CI's don't approve or diminish DIYers, but I'm saying we do but only when using certain logic or reasoning, otherwise we think it's great and encourage DIY.


It's that simple. If you agree that Brian made a good post, then we are in agreement about something because much of what he said is spot on.


----------



## QQQ

Let me see if I can sum this up







.


1. There are some DIY's who are obnoxious. They pop into every thread and like to take snipes at dealers for being gougers, rip-off artists etc. Often then claim not to, but they do nonetheless.


2. There are some CI's who are equally obnoxious in return and never miss a chance to knock a DIY.


3. There are some DIY's who enjoy doing the work themselves but have great respect for the work CI's do.


4. There are some CI's who have great respect for those who DIY and are not the least bit threatened or bothered by it (I think I fall into that category).


------------------------------

Lastly, I suspect there is some gray area and sometimes the good guys (3 & 4) sometimes appear to fall into 1 & 2. Often this is due to our own perspectives and is reactionary. For instance, from a CI's perspective it is sickening when we see someone who has gotten a bunch of proposals to get ideas and then tries to use them as a "design" and then calls us when they can't get it to work. This happens more often than DIY's might imagine. The other thing we see all the time is people trying to source equipment all over the place to save money who are not really DIY because they have NO idea what they are doing who then get angry when their electrician didn't run the right wires and the neighborhood kid (Best Bu kid etc.) who "knows all about this stuff" wasn't able to get it all to work after all







. So sometimes a CI jumps on a post when they see (or think they see) that happening. The other side of the coin might be a DIY who would like to run all his wire and gets treated condescendingly by some CI for even daring to think he could do so successfully. Or whatever.


Does that about sum it up? So now we just need to promote posting along the lines of 3 and 4 which is what makes a forum like this a great community. Otherwise what often happens is the loudest most obnoxious voices drown everyone else out and the good posters quit posting.


----------



## lcaillo

As a tech who repairs and calibrates displays, I have had similar discussions with other techs who fall into category 2. What I think most of those techs don't get is just how many DIYers there are and how important they are to the industry in general. They are often early adopters and the folks that discover application issues, and in some cases solutions. The big point is that they BUY a lot of stuff, which drives the market in many ways. On the other hand, many of those same DIYers assume that because they can perform common or trivial repairs for a lot less than a shop will, that all servicers are a rip-off. Both suffer from a lack of perspective. Both are important parts of the market, and the fact that neither fits into the scope of the other's business or purchasing practice should not necessarily put them at odds.


As a tech and installer I learn a lot from discussions from DIYers. I also provide some online advice for trivial repairs for free (for which I have been the target of much criticism from #2 type techs...hey, I like that description...maybe it should be #2-head techs). Information and karma are a two way street, IMO.


----------



## TheyCallMeTak

Amazing. I've heard good points on both sides. Being a former installer now doing my own home renovation I have lived on both sides as well. One thing I know is I am not getting the last couple hours of my life back. The bright side is, I didn't have to pay anyone anything for it! Aloha all!


----------



## bigpapa

The 1's and 2's are the vocal minority. It seems the difference is the the 1's will stick around and keep up the engagement and the 2's will take their potshots and hit the road. I'm not diminishing the CI's who lose their cool or are jerks, but they hit and run.


OTOH, there are a few 1's that won't go away or shut their trap. I make no apologies for calling things the way they are. Time and my moderately prolific history show that I'm clearly a 4 and have a low tolerance for 1's. This being a public forum with people coming here for advice, I do feel it's helpful to try to get people to understand the realities of custom electronics, and in some instances to get them to understand the perspective of the CI. That may help them. It may also help them to understand that we're people, not all crooks, and how our world works. I'm not here to get sympathy nor empathy.


Much of the advice given here on this forum is not advice at all, it's just a medium for the adviser to satiate their ego or promulgate their biases. Those are the first to get nasty when they are challenged on their statements. Shall I just not say anything about obviously bad advice so people won't gripe about the 'DIY vs CI bickering?' I think not.


I won't change many minds of my opponents in debate. I'm not necessarily trying to, it's quite clear that obstinance becomes an art with them, so I'm not trying to change their mind. This being a public forum, the message is what counts and the viewers of the messsge can make up their own mind.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12946901
> 
> 
> Much of the advice given here on this forum is not advice at all, it's just a medium for the adviser to satiate their ego or promulgate their biases.



all this time, that is exactly what I thought forums were for...

so are you claiming they are not?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12946901
> 
> 
> I won't change many minds of my opponents in debate. I'm not necessarily trying to, it's quite clear that obstinance becomes an art with them, so I'm not trying to change their mind. This being a public forum, the message is what counts and the viewers of the messsge can make up their own mind.



nice quote... and very true... but you do realize it also could also apply to you?









and just to be annoying, you spelled message wrong







spell check is a wonderful tool...


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/12944872
> 
> 
> Let me see if I can sum this up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 1. There are some DIY's who are obnoxious. They pop into every thread and like to take snipes at dealers for being gougers, rip-off artists etc. Often then claim not to, but they do nonetheless.
> 
> 
> 2. There are some CI's who are equally obnoxious in return and never miss a chance to knock a DIY.
> 
> 
> 3. There are some DIY's who enjoy doing the work themselves but have great respect for the work CI's do.
> 
> 
> 4. There are some CI's who have great respect for those who DIY and are not the least bit threatened or bothered by it (I think I fall into that category).



so, what category do the obnoxious DIY's who believe there is nothing wrong with the CI's Services or Pricing structure, because if there was, there would be no CI's... free market being what it is and all... but they just want access to the same products and tools that the CI have locked them out of?.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12947138
> 
> 
> all this time, that is exactly what I thought forums were for...
> 
> so are you claiming they are not?



Are you being satirical? I don't get your point.




> Quote:
> nice quote... and very true... but you do realize it also could also apply to you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and just to be annoying, you spelled message wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spell check is a wonderful tool...



Of course they apply to me, and of course you're just trying to be annoying. Instead of taking a position and advancing it with cohesive logic and reasoning, you ask rhetorical questions and make implications, and point out my bad spelling. What is your point, that I'm obstinant? Then just say so. I will likely ask why and expect you to back it up with evidence or reasoning? Do you have any?


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12947207
> 
> 
> so, what category do the obnoxious DIY's who believe there is nothing wrong with the CI's Services or Pricing structure, because if there was, there would be no CI's... free market being what it is and all... but they just want access to the same products and tools that the CI have locked them out of?.



Still category 1. Call it a 1.1. You just implied that 'CI's lock them out,' which is not what is going on. Plus, you act like you have a right to said equipment, which you don't. For the hundredth time, the manufacturers make the decision to sell equipment to whomever they want. CI's have an influence on that decision, but it's not the primary influence. To imply that CI's 'lock out DIYers' is patently incorrect, false, etc. It's based in the belief that CI's just don't want the competition (ignorance). It's just not true.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12947814
> 
> 
> Still category 1. Call it a 1.1.



well, I was hoping for a 1.2 at least... but 1.1 will do...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12947814
> 
> 
> You just implied that 'CI's lock them out,'



actually I implied nothing, I actually came out and stated that is my observation of the current situation.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12947814
> 
> 
> which is not what is going on. Plus, you act like you have a right to said equipment, which you don't. For the hundredth time, the manufacturers make the decision to sell equipment to whomever they want. CI's have an influence on that decision, but it's not the primary influence.To imply that CI's 'lock out DIYers' is patently incorrect, false, etc.



actually, I thought we were only up up to the fiftieth time, but I may have lost count...

but I guess you will just continue to claim that by your stating that is it is incorrect,false and ignorant, that makes it so, and I will continue to disagree.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12947814
> 
> 
> It's based in the belief that CI's just don't want the competition (ignorance). It's just not true.



so are you saying you want competition? or am I reading that wrong?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> and of course you're just trying to be annoying.



yea, that does pretty much sum that up... I was really hung over when I wrote that, it was the best I could come up with at the time, sorry.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12948077
> 
> 
> actually I implied nothing, I actually came out and stated that is my observation of the current situation.



Great. Do you have anything else to back up your observation? Anecdotal evidence, reasoning, etc?



> Quote:
> but I guess you will just continue to claim that by your stating that is it is incorrect,false and ignorant, that makes it so, and I will continue to disagree.


*And I will continue to make assertions and back them up with anecdotal evidence, reason, and experience which I have done repeatedly*. And you will continue to disagree.



> Quote:
> so are you saying you want competition? or am I reading that wrong?



I'm assuming you're asking this question in the context of these last few posts, so I'll answer as such. But this question could be taken many different ways.


I'm saying that there's an implication (now an assertion) that CI's don't want competition from DIYers. That's silly. DIYers aren't competition to begin with, as stated by DIYers and CI's repeatedly. CI's don't want much of this equipment sold to DIYers, but the manufacturers don't either _for the same reasons._ Manufacturers are acting in their own best interest, not just because its what CI's want.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12947207
> 
> 
> . but they just want access to the same products and tools that the CI have locked them out of?.



Please substantiate this statement with a single fact or quit using this statement. I have absolutely no control over what Creston or RTI does a company.


I do agree with their policy, but competition from a DIY is the least of my worries.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12948290
> 
> 
> Great. Do you have anything else to back up your observation? Anecdotal evidence, reasoning, etc?
> 
> 
> 
> *And I will continue to make assertions and back them up with anecdotal evidence, reason, and experience which I have done repeatedly*. And you will continue to disagree.



your *anecdotal evidence*

your *reason*

your *experience*

quite frankly, I don't trust you, I do not believe that you are all knowing, seeing, etc.. or have my best interests at heart.

it is kind of like asking the Tobacco companies if smoking causes cancer... they have all the proof in the world that it makes you healthy and strong.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12948315
> 
> 
> Please substantiate this statement with a single fact or quit using this statement.



it is a statement of my beliefs, how does one "substantiate" that? if you have a way, I am sure the major religions would love to find that out, then they could offer proof... and everyone could live happily ever after...


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12948315
> 
> 
> I have absolutely no control over what Creston or RTI does a company.



any company lives or dies based on it's dealer network, do you really believe you have no control? or influence?


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12948315
> 
> 
> I do agree with their policy, but competition from a DIY is the least of my worries.



just curious,not to take this thread any farther OT, but what are a CI's worries? well, other that the obvious (lining up new work, finishing off old work, etc...)

never hurts to have a better understanding...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12948290
> 
> 
> I'm assuming you're asking this question in the context of these last few posts, so I'll answer as such. But this question could be taken many different ways.
> 
> 
> I'm saying that there's an implication (now an assertion) that CI's don't want competition from DIYers. That's silly. DIYers aren't competition to begin with, as stated by DIYers and CI's repeatedly. CI's don't want much of this equipment sold to DIYers, but the manufacturers don't either _for the same reasons._ Manufacturers are acting in their own best interest, not just because its what CI's want.



yes I was, and thank you for answering it as such.

ah, but my point has always been that the best interest of the manufacturers is to follow what the CI's want... so stating that the manufactures want the same thing as the CI's is kind of redundant...


of course, thanks to ebay/et al, this whole point is moot, the equipment and tools are available, the world hasn't come crashing down...

but it does make for a nice philosophical debate...


----------



## samgreco

I have to chime in here again.


Somewhatlost, you obviously have NEVER worked in the field. I am NOT a CI. I was a manufacturer's rep for Pro Audio and the HT markets.


Manufacturer's decide what their distribution channel will be. And trust me on this, none of them gives a rat's [email protected]@ about what their dealer network thinks, if they think they can sell more product with less work. The biggest reason that they don't sell to the end-user community is that they don't want to invest in the support that that market needs.


If you as a DIY can't get that product because the manufacturer has locked you out, let them know you'll be going elsewhere because of that policy, but don't blame the CI.


And my evidence is anecdotal, except that I was there. I had to follow the rules set forth by my manufacturers. I let them know the wishes of the CI, but that was just a small portion of their decision process.


So bottom line, I don't think, whatever you think of the CIs here, that they deserve the stuff you're slinging.


----------



## roddymcg




Somewhatlost said:


> your *anecdotal evidence*
> 
> 
> 
> any company lives or dies based on it's dealer network, do you really believe you have no control? or influence?
> 
> 
> just curious,not to take this thread any farther OT, but what are a CI's worries? well, other that the obvious (lining up new work, finishing off old work, etc...)
> 
> never hurts to have a better understanding...
> 
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Ever need tech support?? My ability to get to someone knowledgeable is very important to me. I have tried to get support from a company like Sony or help from a company like Crestron. Crestron actually follows up if I forget to tell them a case is solved.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samgreco* /forum/post/12949059
> 
> 
> I have to chime in here again.
> 
> 
> Somewhatlost, you obviously have NEVER worked in the field. I am NOT a CI. I was a manufacturer's rep for Pro Audio and the HT markets.
> 
> 
> Manufacturer's decide what their distribution channel will be. And trust me on this, none of them gives a rat's [email protected]@ about what their dealer network thinks, if they think they can sell more product with less work. The biggest reason that they don't sell to the end-user community is that they don't want to invest in the support that that market needs.
> 
> 
> If you as a DIY can't get that product because the manufacturer has locked you out, let them know you'll be going elsewhere because of that policy, but don't blame the CI.
> 
> 
> And my evidence is anecdotal, except that I was there. I had to follow the rules set forth by my manufacturers. I let them know the wishes of the CI, but that was just a small portion of their decision process.



well, that seems like a crappy business model, but as you claim to not be a CI, it does seem reasonable.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samgreco* /forum/post/12949059
> 
> 
> So bottom line, I don't think, whatever you think of the CIs here, that they deserve the stuff you're slinging.



for the most part, I think most of the CI's here are probably very good at what they do, and most are probably good people.


as for slinging stuff, I do not believe I was, from my point of view it was nothing more then an interesting philosophical debate... but you choose to describe it as "slinging" so it must of appeared that way to at least you...


so my apologies to anyone who took it as having stuff slung at them.

there has got to be a better way to phrase that, but anyway my intent is sincere...


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12949121
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12948723
> 
> 
> your *anecdotal evidence*
> 
> 
> 
> any company lives or dies based on it's dealer network, do you really believe you have no control? or influence?
> 
> 
> just curious,not to take this thread any farther OT, but what are a CI's worries? well, other that the obvious (lining up new work, finishing off old work, etc...)
> 
> never hurts to have a better understanding...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ever need tech support?? My ability to get to someone knowledgeable is very important to me. I have tried to get support from a company like Sony or help from a company like Crestron. Crestron actually follows up if I forget to tell them a case is solved.
Click to expand...


yea, but Sony will root kit all your PC's for you... when was the last time Crestron infested your PC's with what is effectively a virus???

ok, I am done ranting about Sony now... but I don't actually get what your point is?


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12949284
> 
> 
> yea, but Sony will root kit all your PC's for you... when was the last time Crestron infested your PC with what is effectively a virus???
> 
> ok, I am done ranting about Sony now... but I don't actually get what you point is?



Samgreco backed up my point coming from another point of view. I hate Sony as well. I just used Sony as an example of a company that has their product all over the place with no amount of margin to made on their product. And their tech support is horrible. Whether you can accept this or not, it is a reality of the electronic business.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12948723
> 
> 
> your *anecdotal evidence*
> 
> your *reason*
> 
> your *experience*
> 
> quite frankly, I don't trust you, I do not believe that you are all knowing, seeing, etc.. or have my best interests at heart.
> 
> it is kind of like asking the Tobacco companies if smoking causes cancer... they have all the proof in the world that it makes you healthy and strong.



You just nailed it. You've come to these conclusions of mistrust why? You believe what you do, why? Sort of convenient, isn't it? Using an analogy of my motivations to tobacco companies is the height of stupidity. I'll stipulate that you're mindset comparable to 9/11 troofers and wackjob conspiracy theorists who have nothing more than faith to base their beliefs in, since all evidence to the contrary is parsed away as not being evidence at all. You create a self perpetuating reality based in nothing more than your own dogmas since evidence to the contrary is readily available, but you choose to ignore it.




> Quote:
> ...it is a statement of my beliefs, how does one "substantiate" that?



Did you suddenly one day, out of a vacuum, just decide to not trust a CI? Out of the blue, no other life experiences or opinions to weigh in on, just decide that CI's were not to be trusted? I doubt it. The basis for your feelings/emotions, since you have shown your opinions are not based in reason or experience, is the you don't trust anybody. It is possible to have no opinion, but you choose to have one, based in.. what? Your opinion? What is your opinion based in? A few posts on a forum? Writing on a bathroom wall? What your mom said when you were a kid?


This is clearly some kind of wishy washy relativism. Just because you have an opinion, it has merit... riiight. Since you can't put up and your ego won't let you shut up, you call me arrogant. That's usually a white flag because it's a label applied for no other reason than... it's somebody's opinion.


Let me just say that you're a child molester, a bank robber. You beat your mom. Of course I have no evidence of this, and you really haven't shown any proof of such, but you know what, it's my opinion. Sorry, no debate, it's my opinion, that's just the way it is you child molester/mom beater. How do you like that?



> Quote:
> any company lives or dies based on it's dealer network, do you really believe you have no control? or influence?



Again, you are twisting statements. I nor any other CI never said nor implied that there was 'no influence,' as in our opinion means nothing. On the other hand, our opinion doesn't mean everything, as in the manufacturers do whatever we say or want, as you clearly stated. Your statement wasn't merely wrong or untrue, it was simplistic as well.



> Quote:
> just curious,not to take this thread any farther OT, but what are a CI's worries? well, other that the obvious (lining up new work, finishing off old work, etc...)
> 
> never hurts to have a better understanding...



This thread is about HA profit margins, and part of that general subject is CI integrity and business modeling, of which 'locking our DIYers' is not one of the issues we all talk about when we play poker or drink beers together. I don't think you're actually trying to have a better understanding, you're just trying to antagonize me, but it presents an opportunity to expand on my message with a little more depth than you've displayed. I care more about this industry than you could comprehend and I care more about helping people on this forum than you do. You can believe that not to be true, but the record shows my statement to be true. That's not faith, it's fact.


I cringe when I see posts of somebody asking honestly innocent questions, who's obviously not a DIY, asking how to save money or implying that their getting ripped off, and the ensuing piling on of people who successfully DIYed (for different reasons) advising them that they are getting ripped off and they could DIY and save a bunch of money. I comprehend on a much deeper level than you do how that 'advice' may not be the best advice, how much time it will take that person to go through this process, how much frustration their significant others will have. It's very clear that much of this advice is not meant to help the other person, but to validate the experience and choices of the persons who gave the advice to satiate their egos. They are the ones who have the most issues with CI's and are the first to call persons such as myself arrogant. Call me arrogant all you want, it's your opinion, no? Of course, my behaviour does not fit the literal meaning of the term (actually, it usually fits the person trying to apply the label). T


The fact is that I'm not here to to drum up business, or to win debates with ignoramuses (that's too easy), nor to flex my experience muscle. It's to help people, of which I do regularly. If that means calling a DIYer an idiot, then that's what it is. Most DIYers aren't called idiots by me, because they aren't. I'm impressed by the amount of knowledge found on this site: that's why I peruse it, because comparable to helping people, I am looking to keep my knowledge sharp since I don't know everything. Forever the student, always the master, no?



> Quote:
> ah, but my point has always been that the best interest of the manufacturers is to follow what the CI's want...



....and what the CI's want is to 'lock out DIYers.' Is that the depth of your point? Please elaborate.



> Quote:
> of course, thanks to ebay/et al, this whole point is moot, the equipment and tools are available, the world hasn't come crashing down...



Then what are you doing here 'debating' this issue? Is it just to point out that CI's want to lock out people and that you don't trust me? Why don't you just say that without the leading sentences and implications. You did make one assertion, so that's progress. Your statement does reveal more a more simplistic understanding of the consumer electronics world in relation to the custom integrators, but you've been lamenting the 'locking out' of equipment from availability, yet you're saying it's moot because of ebay. Yet, part of the problem is that the parts were available there, but not supported.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12949370
> 
> 
> Samgreco backed up my point coming from another point of view. I hate Sony as well. I just used Sony as an example of a company that has their product all over the place with no amount of margin to made on their product. And their tech support is horrible. Whether you can accept this or not, it is a reality of the electronic business.



oh, I see where you are coming from now, but I still disagree with you...

sony is a commodity item... Crestron is not, and I doubt they ever will be...

I agree if Crestron was available at Best Buy, it would pretty much mean Crestron had gone down the drain...


when I say that crestron (for example) should be available to DIY, I mean I should be able to buy a system from you, maybe pay you to draw up some plans if it seemed worth while to do so, then I should have the choice of installing and programing myself, or having you do it for me... no best buys or ebays involved... somehow the boys in blue don't strike me as being very helpful...

if a problem should arise, then I could contact my dealer (ie you) and if you couldn't help then you would contact crestron just like you do now... if I tried to contact crestron directly, they would then politely tell me to contact my dealer and leave them alone...

maybe you also sell a support/hand holding contract for the DIY crowd to cover your costs/time...


----------



## Somewhatlost

@bigpapa

you say I am twisting your words, when did I do that?

when did I call you arrogant?

the rest of you post is looks pretty much like a bunch of personal attacks against me. and that is fine, not much reason to go into it...


I guess now my only point is to annoy you... since that is all my tiny little brain could possibly comprehend... so I will just stick to the basics.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12949540
> 
> 
> oh, I see where you are coming from now, but I still disagree with you...
> 
> sony is a commodity item... Crestron is not, and I doubt they ever will be...
> 
> I agree if Crestron was available at Best Buy, it would pretty much mean Crestron had gone down the drain...
> 
> 
> when I say that crestron (for example) should be available to DIY, I mean I should be able to buy a system from you, maybe pay you to draw up some plans if it seemed worth while to do so, then I should have the choice of installing and programing myself, or having you do it for me... no best buys or ebays involved... somehow the boys in blue don't strike me as being very helpful...
> 
> if a problem should arise, then I could contact my dealer (ie you) and if you couldn't help then you would contact crestron just like you do now... if I tried to contact crestron directly, they would then politely tell me to contact my dealer and leave them alone...
> 
> maybe you also sell a support/hand holding contract for the DIY crowd to cover your costs/time...



Apparently Crestron or the likes do not see this as a profitable business model. Neither do I. Business 101 is to earn money to sustain the business. I find it more profitable to design/engineer a project, wire, install, program, then teach the client how to use it. Then move onto the next project. All the while the client is enjoying their dream...


I know there are a few DIY guys out there that are capable of what you point out. But in my experience this is not true of the majority, and I have spoken with many who see the same thing. I do get odd calls pretty regularly with people in over their head, and want you to support their project. We do what we can, but at the end of the day I have to be there for the systems I am completely responsible for...


I don't mind helping people here either, it is relaxing and there is lots of knowledge to gain. Butting hearing PennyGray pop off if in almost every post that using a CI is a rip off and others repeating over and over that there is some conspiracy to keep them from having a great automated home is frustrating to say the least.


So I will ask once again, if you have proof of something then by all means say it. If you have a unsubstantiated belief don't try to sell it as fact.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12949753
> 
> 
> Apparently Crestron or the likes do not see this as a profitable business model. Neither do I. Business 101 is to earn money to sustain the business. I find it more profitable to design/engineer a project, wire, install, program, then teach the client how to use it. Then move onto the next project. All the while the client is enjoying their dream...
> 
> 
> I know there are a few DIY guys out there that are capable of what you point out. But in my experience this is not true of the majority, and I have spoken with many who see the same thing. I do get odd calls pretty regularly with people in over their head, and want you to support their project. We do what we can, but at the end of the day I have to be there for the systems I am completely responsible for...



I do respect your views on this, and you may be right that it is not the correct model for you to personally get into, but that doesn't mean it couldn't work for someone...maybe a bit lower end? but your right, it probably will never happen...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12949753
> 
> 
> So I will ask once again, if you have proof of something then by all means say it. If you have a unsubstantiated belief don't try to sell it as fact.



well, for the moment at least, samgreco has changed my mind, or at least it requires a bit more thought...

actually, I don't believe I tried to sell it as fact, but maybe it came off that way... whatever... now I need to try and twist your words around somehow... make it look like you CI's are all controlled by secret government aliens or something...


----------



## Brian B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12949540
> 
> 
> when I say that crestron (for example) should be available to DIY, I mean I should be able to buy a system from you (1),
> 
> 
> maybe pay you to draw up some plans if it seemed worth while to do so (2),
> 
> 
> then I should have the choice of installing and programing myself (3),
> 
> 
> or having you do it for me... no best buys or ebays involved... somehow the boys in blue don't strike me as being very helpful...(4)
> 
> 
> if a problem should arise, then I could contact my dealer (ie you) and if you couldn't help then you would contact crestron just like you do now...(5)
> 
> 
> if I tried to contact crestron directly, they would then politely tell me to contact my dealer and leave them alone...(6)
> 
> 
> maybe you also sell a support/hand holding contract for the DIY crowd to cover your costs/time...(7)



I numbered (the end) of your statements above for clarity.


(1) Why can't you? Are you saying that a dealer refused to sell you a product without installation/labor/programming?


(2) Again, I don't see why a dealer would not want to charge to draw up plans.


(3) You do. The dealer is not forcing to you to install and program the system. If you can do it yourself, then you are welcome to.


(4) Normal course would be this exactly--for the CI to do the job.


(5) No. The company should only be responsible for what they do. If you had a plumber sell you parts and service then he would be responsible for parts and service. If you went and bought parts yourself and installed them, then YOU would be responsible for the service. You can't have it both ways. If you are not capable of programming the system and/or hooking it up then you should have hired a professional to begin with. If there were a defect with the product that the CI sold to you, then of course they would take care of it as normal.


(6) Correct. Because training is the key. As bigpapa said you can't have people without a clue calling all the time to tech support.


(7) I assume support is part of any CI's business whether it is in or out of house. But see #5, if you want support for something not done by the CI then it is not fair to expect it from them unless you are willing to pay through the nose and they decide it is something they want to tackle.


I don't see a problem with most of what you are wanting.


B.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Brian B* /forum/post/12949846
> 
> 
> (5) No. The company should only be responsible for what they do. If you had a plumber sell you parts and service then he would be responsible for parts and service. If you went and bought parts yourself and installed them, then YOU would be responsible for the service. You can't have it both ways. If you are not capable of programming the system and/or hooking it up then you should have hired a professional to begin with. If there were a defect with the product that the CI sold to you, then of course they would take care of it as normal.
> 
> 
> (7) I assume support is part of any CI's business whether it is in or out of house. But see #5, if you want support for something not done by the CI then it is not fair to expect it from them unless you are willing to pay through the nose and they decide it is something they want to tackle.
> 
> 
> I don't see a problem with most of what you are wanting.
> 
> 
> B.



your description for points 5 & 7 is a much clearer version of what I meant,as far as what I would consider Hand Holding or extended support, you are right if the dealer was willing to do that, it would be expensive, but it just may be worth it...


as far as (1) goes, that is the point of all this, what dealer will sell you the equipment and tools?


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12949828
> 
> 
> I do respect your views on this, and you may be right that it is not the correct model for you to personally get into, but that doesn't mean it couldn't work for someone...maybe a bit lower end? but your right, it probably will never happen...



Look at what Dean Roddey is doing, at least with the software part of things. Then follow up on the trials and tribulations of IVB. There are solutions out there for the DIY. How big that market is, you have to ask Dean this. I have to say I am pretty impressed. Not impressed enough to stop doing Crestron systems though...










It seams to be working for CQC, so maybe there is a market for the DIY. Are the Crestrons/Russounds or whatever seeing this and changing their marketing procedures?? I am not seeing or hearing any major plans in this direction. But I am far from having privy to inside information.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12949942
> 
> 
> your description for points 5 & 7 is a much clearer version of what I meant,as far as what I would consider Hand Holding or extended support, you are right if the dealer was willing to do that, it would be expensive, but it just may be worth it...
> 
> 
> as far as (1) goes, that is the point of all this, what dealer will sell you the equipment and tools?



Remember manufacturers have rules, rules in which we have to agree upon to be a dealer. If we don't follow these rules we can loose our ability to keep a line. If we lost Crestron for instance I would have 1000's of hours of research down the tubes. This would be a major blow to our company. It would not be the end, but it would be painful.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12950063
> 
> 
> Remember manufacturers have rules, rules in which we have to agree upon to be a dealer. If we don't follow these rules we can loose our ability to keep a line. If we lost Crestron for instance I would have 1000's of hours of research down the tubes. This would be a major blow to our company. It would not be the end, but it would be painful.



yea, that's my point, they should change the rules, not screw the dealers...


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12950090
> 
> 
> yea, that's my point, they should change the rules, not screw the dealers...



But the rules are there for a reason. And we had a choice to agree to these rules or to use another product. I accept the rules and agree with enough of the rules to continue to business with the companies we do business with.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12950163
> 
> 
> But the rules are there for a reason. And we had a choice to agree to these rules or to use another product. I accept the rules and agree with enough of the rules to continue to business with the companies we do business with.



that is true, but, they could change the rules... companies have changed rules in the past, so I am sure they could change them in the future...

also I am not saying that they should force a CI into also being a reseller, it should just be an option... if a CI just wanted to be an installer, that should be up to the CI...


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12950268
> 
> 
> that is true, but, they could change the rules...



Why?


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12950268
> 
> 
> that is true, but, they could change the rules... companies have changed rules in the past, so I am sure they could change them in the future...
> 
> also I am not saying that they should force a CI into also being a reseller, it should just be an option... if a CI just wanted to be an installer, that should be up to the CI...



If you or someone else here can show the manufacturers their is a potential to make more money, and keep a loyal dealer network around. I am sure the manufacturers would be willing to listen.


Why did URC change their model, it could not of been because they were making so much money on their distribution model, now could it?? We still need to be profitable to sustain...


----------



## Greg C

Companies are in business to maximize profits. If companies like Crestron/AMX thought that they could increase profit catering to DYI, they would find a way of doing it. As an example, look at URC. They changed their model to resemble RTI/Crestro/AMX. They looked at their cost of supporting the average DYI compared to the CI industry and chose to change their model.


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12951546
> 
> 
> and keep a loyal dealer network around.



be careful, it is starting to sound like you are trying to prove my previous argument, bigpapa will start calling you ignorant if you keep that up...







and we don't want that...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12951546
> 
> 
> Why did URC change their model, it could not of been because they were making so much money on their distribution model, now could it?? We still need to be profitable to sustain...





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Greg C* /forum/post/12951766
> 
> 
> Companies are in business to maximize profits. If companies like Crestron/AMX thought that they could increase profit catering to DYI, they would find a way of doing it. As an example, look at URC. They changed their model to resemble RTI/Crestro/AMX. They looked at their cost of supporting the average DYI compared to the CI industry and chose to change their model.



of course companies want to maximize their profits, its better for everyone if they do...


I am really not familiar with URC, what was their model and what did they change too?

if their model was to directly support the customer, instead of using their dealer network, then yea, it probably was a bad model, unless their remotes were as simple as the 'one4all' remotes that radio shack had...


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12951085
> 
> 
> Why?



my guess would be to maximize profits if done correctly, but I am just ignorant.


so, oh great, all knowing bigpapa, why wont you enlighten me as to why?


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12952031
> 
> 
> so, oh great, all knowing bigpapa, why wont you enlighten me as to why?



It's about time you kissed my pinky ring. But I asked you why. You have no problem making one line implications or assertions, but nothing beyond that. I know the answer to the question, it's my opinion backed up by reason and logic.

But I'm doing all the work typing all the words. Why don't you put together a cogent argument and advocate a position, instead of just being antagonistic and stating that I'm just attacking your character? That's the easy way out.


Why should companies (like Crestron) 'change the rules' and (I'm assuming) cater to DIYers?


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12952805
> 
> 
> But I'm doing all the work typing all the words.



but being as ignorant as you have stated I am, how could I possibly understand all of them? perhaps if you only used single syllable words in the future, it would help my feeble mind to understand them









and being as ignorant as I am, I may accidentally twist your words around to mean what they say... and we wouldn't want that, now would we?


so why, bigpapa, why wont you bestow your divine knowledge upon us mere mortals? has your adoring masses slighted you in some fashion?


----------



## bigpapa

Somewhatlost,


Any time you want to make an argument or be part of a debate, have at it. The passive aggressive victimhood just looks plain silly.
*

Crestron decided it was in their best interest, to maximize profits, to not cater to the DIY community*. It's blatantly obvious. Yet you're essentially saying they should cater to the DIY community but CI's won't let them. I ask you why you think that, what the basis of your opinion is, and you would rather talk about me and how I'm just being a big meanie. Or, it's just your opinion.


Please explain this:


Roddy said:


> Quote:
> ...and keep a loyal dealer network around.



Then you said this:


> Quote:
> ...be careful, it is starting to sound like you are trying to prove my previous argument...



You asserted that CI's want dealers to 'lock out' DIYers, so that's why the manufacturers don't sell to them. Somehow Roddy's statement proves your point, as you imply. How is that? You've been told many times that manufacturers don't directly care about CI's or what they think, and DIYers are not competitors to CI's.


Do you wish to finish what you started or continue to evade the issues discussed by focusing on my (perceived) character flaws?


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12956745
> 
> 
> just looks plain silly.



actually any debate with you seems destined to become silly. so I am just going to stop.


if you would like, you can run off and tell all your friends you won... I am sure they will be so very impressed... in any case you are free to continue insulting me and my character as you see fit. and I am sure you will have some very compelling parting words, because you couldn't pass up the opportunity to get the last word in could you?


as for me, I have plenty of babies to kill, banks to rob, and mothers to beat... they wont kill/rob/beat themselves you know... come to think of it, maybe with some training and automation, they just might... wonder what crestron has that will fit the bill?


anyway, I am done with you, have a nice life.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/12956745
> 
> 
> You asserted that CI's want dealers to 'lock out' DIYers, so that's why the manufacturers don't sell to them. Somehow Roddy's statement proves your point, as you imply. How is that? You've been told many times that manufacturers don't directly care about CI's or what they think, and DIYers are not competitors to CI's.



as for my assertion, someone whose opinion I respect, stated something that may have changed my view on the subject.


as far as Roddys statement goes, it doesn't prove anything, I just thought is was funny in this context... someday you should consider investing in a sense of humor...


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Greg C* /forum/post/12951766
> 
> 
> As an example, look at URC. They changed their model to resemble RTI/Crestro/AMX. They looked at their cost of supporting the average DYI compared to the CI industry and chose to change their model.



Not quite apples to apples. Part of the URC issue was that their remotes were showing up on ebay cheaper than their own dealers could buy them from URC. So they just changed the distribution channel for their software. Any dealer is free to give it to any customer they choose.


----------



## QQQ

Ah, the old forum kiss off of "I'm done with you, have a nice life". What forum would be complete without it...


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12958398
> 
> 
> anyway, I am done with you, have a nice life.



...but wait, I thought you were done with him and here you go again....


> Quote:
> as for my assertion, someone whose opinion I respect, stated something that may have changed my view on the subject.
> 
> 
> as far as Roddys statement goes, it doesn't prove anything, I just thought it was funny in this context... someday you should consider investing in a sense of humor...



I think you now owe it to everyone to at least offer a final "I'm done with this".


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12958398
> 
> 
> if you would like, you can run off and tell all your friends you won...



I'll let the record of our posts speak for themselves. You brought nothing to the dialog except your bias and peculiar 'sense of humor.'


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/12958968
> 
> 
> Ah, the old forum kiss off of "I'm done with you, have a nice life". What forum would be complete without it...
> 
> 
> ...but wait, I thought you were done with him and here you go again....
> 
> 
> I think you now owe it to everyone to at least offer a final "I'm done with this".



actually I just said I was done with him... not this... minor difference...


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/12958968
> 
> 
> Ah, the old forum kiss off of "I'm done with you, have a nice life". What forum would be complete without it...



Now *that* is funny. I'm done with SWL being done with me being done of him being done.


----------



## roddymcg

This is not about who won and who lost, to me anyways.


It gets old when you constantly read about accusations over and over... Especially when there is no validity to these comments.


Not all of us are thieves and non of us have the ability to keep anyone from a product. At least not me anyways. We can have differences of opinions and still respect each other and get along, can't we??


missed a no...


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12960776
> 
> 
> It gets old when you constantly read about accusations over and over... Especially when there is validity to these comments.



I thought your point was that there was no validity to these comments?


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12960776
> 
> 
> none of us have the ability to keep anyone from a product. At least not me anyways.



that is just not true, you can refuse to sell to anyone, as long as your choice isn't based on race/religion/sex/etc... I am not sure if that is a good business model or not, but still you do have the choice... although I admit that probably wasn't your point...


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12961613
> 
> 
> I thought your point was that there was no validity to these comments?



I missed a no, went back and fixed it.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Somewhatlost* /forum/post/12961613
> 
> 
> that is just not true, you can refuse to sell to anyone, as long as your choice isn't based on race/religion/sex/etc... I am not sure if that is a good business model or not, but still you do have the choice... although I admit that probably wasn't your point...



Who said I have refused to work with clients?? I have stated I am not willing to compromise my dealer agreement to win over a potential client. There is a huge difference here, no??


----------



## Somewhatlost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12961678
> 
> 
> I missed a no, went back and fixed it.



that is what I thought... just checking...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12961678
> 
> 
> Who said I have refused to work with clients??



no one, I am just pointing out you or any other business owner could. but I am in no way saying they you would...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/12961678
> 
> 
> I have stated I am not willing to compromise my dealer agreement to win over a potential client. There is a huge difference here, no??



huge difference? yes...

especially since I never even implied you should...


----------



## mdowner




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/10929890
> 
> 
> For those out there that have posted recently about the "high" margins of home automation let me tell you what just happened to me again.
> 
> 
> I have spent four full days on a home automation design with complete home lighting, A/V, and thermostat control control. I walked through the home with the customer, designed a system as per their input. The customer insisted on Crestron control which is a great and maybe the only way to do all of what they wanted. I put together an estimate which ended up at $150K. The customer tells me that is more than they wanted to spend. I redesigned it leaving all the functions they really needed and wanted. Re-submitted a new estimate that met their budget.
> 
> Friday I get a call telling me they went with a different contractor that had better prices! Come to find out the other contractor is putting in an IR based control system which I can't imagine could control all this well. So after all the time I spent on this, designing a system per the customer input, putting in the control system they insisted on, I have nothing to show for it. I might has well have been on vacation last week!
> 
> 
> You gotta love this business!



It's always a good idea to charge a consultation fee which can be applied to to sale and installation. Your time is valuable, and for those customers who tend to be non-committing, this often wakes them up to really focus on their needs and budget or makes them run. If they run your out nothing, as they were probably picking your brain and planning on using someone else the whole time anyways. Often the first bid is the one used to compare to others and barter a better deal.


-matt
www.techniglobal.com


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> 1. There are some DIY's who are obnoxious. They pop into every thread and like to take snipes at dealers for being gougers, rip-off artists etc. Often then claim not to, but they do nonetheless.





> Quote:
> OTOH, there are a few 1's that won't go away or shut their trap. I make no apologies for calling things the way they are.




LOL, you guys should just put....penngray in those statements.







Don't hide from it. QQQ, Bigpappa...dont beat around the bush on it










My point of view on the world of HA current still is one where I think the products/services offered are out of touch with 99% of the population. That 1% is still a huge market so none of you need to really worry. On the other hand, the real estate market downturn cant be helping some....picture a little grin on my face for karma there










Yes Im the guy that coined the "rip-off" phrase on here for the past couple of years and the "line item" costs I have seen still give me that "ripped-off" opinion.


The funny thing here is that you dont know me and in the real world you would understand that Im just blunt and honest and not one that is throwing empty punches just for insult. I will back my opinion up and I dont back down from a good debate.


In the real world you would be golfing with me (I run golf tournaments all the time and Im the guy that has the most fun) or wanting to go out for drinks and so on. You have this imagination of what you think Im like and an opinion from just the fact that I dont agree with current HA costs and you "label" me with that.


I dont believe in the HA pricing models that exist to day and I simply believe there is a huge market being missed because of that.


I do believe I have hundreds of posts helping others do the same things I have done, I have built a DIY sub system and I share my experience as much as possible. I have used every matrix switch you can think of and I post my opinion on those. I have source $$$ for all types of HA products and I have posted info over and over to help others save tons of money.


You want to label me for all that...not a problem at all! You guys only have name calling to back yourselves up because at the end of the day I know I have had great success in everything I do and I have helped others on here more then you guys in the past year or more. My full inbox shows how much










Im not here to appease the CIs either, I dont find them to offer much at all to this forum over the years other then to say "hire a pro"...their famous mantra.


----------



## cmont




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/13028650
> 
> 
> On the other hand, the real estate market downturn cant be helping some....picture a little grin on my face for karma there



I think that says it all.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/13028650
> 
> 
> In the real world you would be golfing with me



One more in the long list of things you are incorrect about.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> On the other hand, the real estate market downturn cant be helping some....picture a little grin on my face for karma there



That really does explain a lot. You really don't like CI's.


The more to post, the more fodder you provide for me to point out how out of touch you really are with this industry. There is a negative effect on our industry when less houses are built, but there is a positive effect in that our goods and services are in more demand than before because builders want to offer products that are better than the other guys. So, the net negative influence on our industry is much smaller than the actual homebuilders. The overall demand is growing, and will continue to grow well beyond this recession and many more. Recessions tend to weed out week companies with weak business models, especially ones who don't charge enough margin or give away goods or services for free.


> Quote:
> My point of view on the world of HA current still is one where I think the products/services offered are out of touch with 99% of the population. That 1% is still a huge market so none of you need to really worry.



Yes, you've made that point. It seems that you took it personal since you think it costs too much money. The trend is that HA costs are getting cheaper, thanks to the rich people and cutting edgers. You know, the ones you call stupid or wasteful with their own money. Shall we go into detail on that one again?



> Quote:
> I will back my opinion up and I dont back down from a good debate.



You probably would look better if you did because you clearly don't understand this industry and are repeatedly rebutted with actual logic and real world information and experience, yet choose to ignore that and imply that you're just a victim of grumpy CI's whose feelings you've hurt. I hope you don't believe your own BS because it would seriously lower my respect for you as an intelligent person. I think you're just spinning it, so I'll call it BS.


> Quote:
> You want to label me for all that...not a problem at all! You guys only have name calling to back yourselves up because at the end of the day I know I have had great success in everything I do...



As compared to what? There's a small possibility that I've worked on as many matrix switches as you, but I've never displayed such ignorance as you have with your assumptions about CI's, rich people and our clientele, builders, etc. The names you are called stick because they are true and I will continue to point out where your argument is based in stereotypes and ignorance, not practical experience or pragmatism. How many HA systems installed by professionals have you seen besides yours? Well, were all ripoff artists so you never hired on of 'us' to do one, so where does your experience base lead you? Your buddy down the street? You know how to program HA and have it control matrix switches, I'm impressed.


In fact, I don't think I've ever called you a name or made a baseless insult. I've called you ignorant several times and backed it up with reasons why. You continue to make my point for me.


You still don't know **** about this industry or this profession and you continue to display that for us with your posts. You also make an assumption that you are more helpful to DIYers here on the forum, and you can validate that to yourself all you want. The fact is that I get paid for my advice and profit from it, continuing to satisfy clients who hire me again to handle their needs. I don't need to be here, I'm here for the passion of the electronics industry and because I want to help people.


You want to come here to validate yourself so your device is biased as such. Your advice is given to make yourself feel better about yourself and your decisions, not to help another person. Your history of help shows that.


I have an inbox with a bunch of posts that says "Penngray is an XXXXXXX!" Does that make it true?


I could post about how to make better speaker wire with CAT5's. I'll bet my inbox fills up faster than yours ever did. Would that mean it was true? If I post that I have video proving 9/11 was an inside job, will that mean it's true?


Of course not. All you have is your public posts and what you say in them. Much of what you post is advice, but some of it sucks, especially when your advice is based on emotions and bias and not practical advice or experience.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/13028650
> 
> 
> You guys only have name calling to back yourselves up because at the end of the day I know I have had great success in everything I do...



I've usually found that people who have had great success don't constantly need to take pot shots at wealthy people nor at professionals in other industry. I've also usually found that people who have had great success don't need to pronounce it. On the other hand, insecure people, who do not feel successful often exhibit such behavior. I am speaking theoretically of course.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/13028650
> 
> 
> LOL, you guys should just put....penngray in those statements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't hide from it. QQQ, Bigpappa...dont beat around the bush on it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point of view on the world of HA current still is one where I think the products/services offered are out of touch with 99% of the population. That 1% is still a huge market so none of you need to really worry. On the other hand, the real estate market downturn cant be helping some....picture a little grin on my face for karma there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes Im the guy that coined the "rip-off" phrase on here for the past couple of years and the "line item" costs I have seen still give me that "ripped-off" opinion.
> 
> 
> The funny thing here is that you dont know me and in the real world you would understand that Im just blunt and honest and not one that is throwing empty punches just for insult. I will back my opinion up and I dont back down from a good debate.
> 
> 
> In the real world you would be golfing with me (I run golf tournaments all the time and Im the guy that has the most fun) or wanting to go out for drinks and so on. You have this imagination of what you think Im like and an opinion from just the fact that I dont agree with current HA costs and you "label" me with that.
> 
> 
> I dont believe in the HA pricing models that exist to day and I simply believe there is a huge market being missed because of that.
> 
> 
> I do believe I have hundreds of posts helping others do the same things I have done, I have built a DIY sub system and I share my experience as much as possible. I have used every matrix switch you can think of and I post my opinion on those. I have source $$$ for all types of HA products and I have posted info over and over to help others save tons of money.
> 
> 
> You want to label me for all that...not a problem at all! You guys only have name calling to back yourselves up because at the end of the day I know I have had great success in everything I do and I have helped others on here more then you guys in the past year or more. My full inbox shows how much
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im not here to appease the CIs either, I dont find them to offer much at all to this forum over the years other then to say "hire a pro"...their famous mantra.



The more I read from you Penny the less I respect you. And no we would never play golf together..


I see how you think it is funny that people are going out of business, losing there homes, and not being able to take care of their families. And you put a smiley at the end of your post. Really fun there...


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/13028650
> 
> 
> ..........I have source $$$ for all types of HA products and I have posted info over and over to help others save tons of money.
> 
> 
> You want to label me for all that



It's always interesting reading a persons opinion of why they are disliked ("labeled"). I've got a news flash for you. You aren't disliked because you are helping people to save money...or saving the world from hunger and famine...you are disliked because you are an obnoxious jerk.


p.s. IVB (really does) helps people constantly, helps people save money and so forth. Everybody seems to like him.


----------



## bathurstix

Professionals, doctors, lawyers, engineers,etc., do not add on to outsourced invoices. They bill at high hourly rates and pass on at their costs at the invoice price. The costs for copies, experts, tests, depositions, long distance telephone calls, fed ex, etc. are passed along to clients with no markup. Until CI's do the same, and sell products at cost ,or a flat precentage of costs, and charge a reasonable fee, say $200, or more, an hour, they will not be considered professional, even if they have 20 designaions after their name.


----------



## bathurstix

Please tell me what is included in your design fee. Thanks


----------



## vegasbiker




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bathurstix* /forum/post/14254722
> 
> 
> Professionals, doctors, lawyers, engineers,etc., do not add on to outsourced invoices. They bill at high hourly rates and pass on at their costs at the invoice price. The costs for copies, experts, tests, depositions, long distance telephone calls, fed ex, etc. are passed along to clients with no markup. Until CI's do the same, and sell products at cost ,or a flat precentage of costs, and charge a reasonable fee, say $200, or more, an hour, they will not be considered professional, even if they have 20 designaions after their name.



ok sorry but I'm calling BS on this one. I run a fairly complex company alot of development and alot of construction projects, ($400M annual rev and $5 b in constuction over next 5 years.) As such I deal with a ton of professionals, consultants, designers, engineers, lawyers... you get the picture. They ALL charge overhead mark-up on outsourced work AND Admin fees on top of their costs for EVERYTHING. Some as low as 10% some as high as 65%. Wife is an attorney and her firm does the same.


----------



## David Richardson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bathurstix* /forum/post/14254722
> 
> 
> Professionals, doctors, lawyers, engineers,etc., do not add on to outsourced invoices. They bill at high hourly rates and pass on at their costs at the invoice price. The costs for copies, experts, tests, depositions, long distance telephone calls, fed ex, etc. are passed along to clients with no markup. Until CI's do the same, and sell products at cost ,or a flat precentage of costs, and charge a reasonable fee, say $200, or more, an hour, they will not be considered professional, even if they have 20 designaions after their name.



Interesting... Since I've been in the CI for over 12 years 95% of customer balk at labor over product price. Yes some want a 'product discount' but labor is a large part of real custom projects. Maybe Best Buy installs are different but that is like going to McDonalds and asking them for real quailty burgers.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bathurstix* /forum/post/14254722
> 
> 
> Professionals, doctors, *lawyers*, engineers,etc., do not add on to outsourced invoices. ........The costs for *copies*, experts, tests, depositions, long distance telephone calls, fed ex, etc. are passed along to clients with no markup.



Lawyers most certainly mark up the price of copies. Kinkos charges like 4 cents, my attorney charges 20 cents per page.


Plus they markup the time spent. I talk to him for 5 minutes, I get billed for 15.


----------



## mwne2nks

I am late to this party, but I have to agree that Doctors and lawyers and other professionals DO mark up outsourced stuff and by a lot. Check your cost on a pair of aspirin next time you go the ER. I pd $7.50 for 2 2 only not 2 bottles >

I think that Ci's are overall a pretty good bunch of guys, that just happen to make our technology lifes easier.

ANd I guess I can say, if you think their prices are too high , then don't ask them for design help either.


----------



## Syphon Filter

Why all the hate towards CI's?


Anyway on topic:


1. When approached by a client we ususally attend a couple of meetings and write a proposal for free. The proposal is a document which just contains a written description of the services we intend to offer. If the proposal is accepted (we usually do one or two revisions of the proposal for free too just to get the clients requirements nailed) we move onto step 2.


2. We do a full design including a cable schematic and cable schedule. The schematic/schedules show every single cable that is to be installed on the job, indicating the start and end points as well as the cable type and the cable reference (effectively a number). This design is charged for and never done until our proposal has been accepted (ie we have won the job) and received an order for our services.


I think you have to be very careful in this industry as I've seen a couple of good guys take on a job/do a design only for the client to walk away and use another CI to implement that design. Proposals and designs can take a lot of time and require a lot of expertise/experience to get right. We're not just making this stuff as we go along and nor do we just hack things together into something that sort of works. If you have the opportunity to go and see a properly designed and installed Custom Installation then I urge you to do so. Perhaps then you will see where the cost goes.


The other thing that people freak about is the programming cost of these jobs. The attitude is:


"Well, I've paid £XXXk for my installation and now there is a programming cost as well?!"


Well, once again I would like to point you in the direction of a well designed and installed CI, then look at the programming. The programming is possibly the most important factor you have to consider, it's what is most visible, the UI and hte fcuntionality of that UI is what the client has to interact with. The install can be top notch but if the programming is rough, the client wont get the value from the system.


In short, there is a lot that goes into a properly completed job and when people complain that CI's charge too much etc then I would suggest that they are not our target market. We spend a lot of time keepign up to speed on the latest and greatest technologies.


Forums like this are great, because they let people have access to the experience and knowledge of CI's without having to pay our fees!!! Some people appreciate that, others do not and just want to slam us for everything we say. It's ok, this is a rough industry and I would like to think that those of us who have been in it for a while have developed a hide that's thick enough for any derogatory comments to be water off a ducks back.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/13028650
> 
> 
> In the real world you would be golfing with me (I run golf tournaments all the time and Im the guy that has the most fun) or wanting to go out for drinks and so on. You have this imagination of what you think Im like and an opinion from just the fact that I dont agree with current HA costs and you "label" me with that.
> 
> 
> I dont believe in the HA pricing models that exist to day and I simply believe there is a huge market being missed because of that.
> 
> 
> I do believe I have hundreds of posts helping others do the same things I have done, I have built a DIY sub system and I share my experience as much as possible. I have used every matrix switch you can think of and I post my opinion on those. I have source $$$ for all types of HA products and I have posted info over and over to help others save tons of money.
> 
> 
> You want to label me for all that...not a problem at all! You guys only have name calling to back yourselves up because at the end of the day I know I have had great success in everything I do and I have helped others on here more then you guys in the past year or more. My full inbox shows how much
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im not here to appease the CIs either, I dont find them to offer much at all to this forum over the years other then to say "hire a pro"...their famous mantra.



A lot of us usually say go to your dealer and get some Ideas... most dealers are willing to help people because its a "word-of-mouth" industry and it does none of us any benefit to not help. If you want to go out and buy everything over the internet fine.. but if I tell you that throwing in a bunch of misc. parts together may not be a good idea dont get upset. In the real world I have disagreements all the time so that really has no bearing on whether or not I would golf with them or not.. I golf with people I like to play golf with










when it comes to programming most people should hire a pro because they know lot more technique and shortcuts when it comes down to it... even if it is a simpler remote.


the fact that you think you are the most helpful resource in the forum is joke in itself.. we all have helped people and each other. You are just another piece of the puzzle (one oppinion). We dont knock you for saying Do-It-Yourself so dont knock us for saying Hire-A-Pro.. if I can help someone I will and it has nothing to with wanting business.


Lastly I dont know about you but when it comes down to it time is money people need to take into account if it is worth them using their own time to do something or paying a professional.. I could probably fix a lot of the plumbing in my home... but I'd gladly pay a plumber the hourly rate to fix the smelly problem while I take my son to the movies (my DIY time is usually spent with my family







so if its a short/low time consumption project sure have it. If not, way the options. Have a great day everyone!


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Syphon Filter* /forum/post/14883318
> 
> 
> Forums like this are great, because they let people have access to the experience and knowledge of CI's without having to pay our fees!!! Some people appreciate that, others do not and just want to slam us for everything we say. It's ok, this is a rough industry and I would like to think that those of us who have been in it for a while have developed a hide that's thick enough for any derogatory comments to be water off a ducks back.



Let me understand this. Why do the CI's hang around here if all they get is what you describe?


Back to the topic, your description misses the forrest from trees as far as I am concerned. My issue with charges for everything is one of value. I get to replace a $2 light switch with a $300 one when it is all said and done. And for that, I get a few things that are nice. Not critical, but nice. That is why your industry is "rough." It hasn't done enough to justify the 150X increase in cost. It is a fragmented industry lacking standards that would let a lot of things work without all that programming and increased costs as a result.


Sure, there are people who write you checks and don't ask questions and that drives a lot of business. But here, on AVS, you are going to deal with a bunch who do ask a lot of questions. They do the same for other AV products. I should know, 90% of my post count came from answering them in another life







. For them, often it is hard to justfy your fees when they get to install all of their own AV equipment and even make their own home theaters from scratch. For them, your industry is difficult to deal with where the answer is a black box solution with a long invoice and having to call someone to make any changes...


----------



## Syphon Filter

I'm not here to get into an argument, I was merely pointing out an observation.


We charge fees because the knowledge we carry is not out there for every tom, dick and harry. It takes time to build up that experience and knowledge that's all I am saying. Also I didnt say we all get slammed all the time, merely that there are those who appreciate our input and those that do not.


Also comparing a $2 light switch to a $300 lutron keypad is not really the same. It's like comparing a Ford Fiesta to a Ferrari. Sure, they're both cars that will get you from A to B...but that's where the similiarities end.


People with the money to pay for the Ferraris and the likes are also the ones that pay for real CI services. Those with Fiestas who cant afford a Ferrari, come on here and rave about how expensive CIs are, give them grief and tell us all how stupid our clients must be. I'm not saying everyone does it, nor am I saying it happens all the time but there is definitely an element of that.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Syphon Filter* /forum/post/14885901
> 
> 
> We charge fees because the knowledge we carry is not out there for every tom, dick and harry. It takes time to build up that experience and knowledge that's all I am saying. Also I didnt say we all get slammed all the time, merely that there are those who appreciate our input and those that do not.



All true. But I didn't get the answer I was looking for







.



> Quote:
> Also comparing a $2 light switch to a $300 lutron keypad is not really the same. It's like comparing a Ford Fiesta to a Ferrari. Sure, they're both cars that will get you from A to B...but that's where the similiarities end.
> 
> 
> People with the money to pay for the Ferraris and the likes are also the ones that pay for real CI services. Those with Fiestas who cant afford a Ferrari, come on here and rave about how expensive CIs are, give them grief and tell us all how stupid our clients must be. I'm not saying everyone does it, nor am I saying it happens all the time but there is definitely an element of that.



So do I understand correctly that only folks who drive Ferraris should engage your services? If not, then please let's be done with car analogies which can be used to make any argument and its counter














. BTW, do you own a Ferrari? If not, I assume you don't use your own services and products either







.


Folks here invest tens of thousands of dollars to get the last bit of quality and performance out of their AV gear. So please don't think for a moment that is the reason people don't spend that kind of money with you. As I said, your industry lacks a clear "elevator pitch" on the benefits of automation. Your response highlights this even more. Nothing to say but that people don't appreciate the best?


----------



## Syphon Filter

Ok you can twist my words however you wish but I think my point is clear to all.


A CI can offer services and products which have a clear benefit to those who can afford them and can appreciate what they have to offer. I agree my analogy may not be the best but I think it does have some merit. Also the biggest thing is that the majority of people know care how things work or want the trouble of figuring it out, they jsut want a system that works and does what they expect. A CI can provide those services. Clearly, people on this forum who do things on their own may not feel the need that they need the services of a CI, all power to them. I don't begrudge DIY'ers one bit, it's how I got into the industry!!


I just dont like how people are always quick to get in a CI's face. I've not even been posting for long but it seems like a common thing.


You are correct on one thing though, I do not own a Ferrari and nor do I have a Lutron lighting system or a Crestron control system (I have an AV2 and a QM-RMC knocking around but I've not done anything with them yet.


----------



## WRET AUDIO

I guess I touched a nerve. 388 replies and 18,555 views later I can't believe this thread is still going.


About two hundred replies ago I realized this discussion is about two complete seperate markets. Home Integration Enthusiast and Contractor Services. Where these two worlds meet is where confusion and misunderstanding arises. My company has stopped all attempts to install small home systems to concentrate on medium and large high end systems. We learned where we fit in this market and where we do not.


We all work with the similar gear functionality, but that's about where the similarities stop. Good luck to all involved in automation and I hope we all can help each other out along the way.


----------



## Syphon Filter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WRET AUDIO* /forum/post/14887097
> 
> 
> I guess I touched a nerve. 388 replies and 18,555 views later I can't believe this thread is still going.
> 
> 
> About two hundred replies ago I realized this discussion is about two complete seperate markets. Home Integration Enthusiast and Contractor Services. Where these two worlds meet is where confusion and misunderstanding arises. My company has stopped all attempts to install small home systems to concentrate on medium and large high end systems. We learned where we fit in this market and where we do not.
> 
> 
> We all work with the similar gear functionality, but that's about where the similarities stop. Good luck to all involved in automation and I hope we all can help each other out along the way.



Completely agree. There are different market segments from your low end single room home cinema all the way up to the full blown multi-zone audio video and full integration systems including HVAC, lighting etc which typically include a true dedicated cinema and that's just home systems, what about the super-yacht market? I know guys who are working on marine installations which literally DRAWF anything you would see in a residential property. We're talking 50+ Crestron processors with multiple Kaleidescape servers (I said servers not players!!).


It's a different world.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14886174
> 
> 
> All true. But I didn't get the answer I was looking for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> So do I understand correctly that only folks who drive Ferraris should engage your services? If not, then please let's be done with car analogies which can be used to make any argument and its counter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . BTW, do you own a Ferrari? If not, I assume you don't use your own services and products either
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Folks here invest tens of thousands of dollars to get the last bit of quality and performance out of their AV gear. So please don't think for a moment that is the reason people don't spend that kind of money with you. As I said, your industry lacks a clear "elevator pitch" on the benefits of automation. Your response highlights this even more. Nothing to say but that people don't appreciate the best?



FACT - It costs money to make technology advance


The ones who make technology advance prefer not to deal with the end user


Middle Man (CI's, Dealers, Installers) do this for them its part of the mark-up

not to mention the over-head of having to pay bills for running an operation. unless you're a very very small company operating out of a garage you need to make money to also cover the employees who work in the office who do not make you any money aside from the accounting dept. and God Forbid that company want to make any money










You post comments like that every chance you get... its actually quite bothering. you say your a software guy correct? I know that once software is created you can duplicate discs for relatively cheap so why do software companies charge so much for it?


AV companies are not the only ones making money in this fashion. In fact it feels as though thats what you're making us out to be. I have 2 questions for you

1) Have you been burned by a AV company before?

2) Can you name me a company that operates without mark-up?


----------



## WayneDB123

I don't get what the big deal is, I think a C.I. should price their services anyway they want. If they charge more than the market will bear, they won't stay in bussiness very long. If you think their rates are too high, don't sign the contract.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14885430
> 
> 
> Let me understand this. Why do the CI's hang around here if all they get is what you describe?



Since you are obviously implying something, why don't you explain to us why we hang around here?


> Quote:
> Back to the topic, your description misses the forrest from trees as far as I am concerned. My issue with charges for everything is one of value. I get to replace a $2 light switch with a $300 one when it is all said and done. And for that, I get a few things that are nice. Not critical, but nice. That is why your industry is "rough." It hasn't done enough to justify the 150X increase in cost. It is a fragmented industry lacking standards that would let a lot of things work without all that programming and increased costs as a result.
> 
> 
> Sure, there are people who write you checks and don't ask questions and that drives a lot of business. But here, on AVS, you are going to deal with a bunch who do ask a lot of questions. They do the same for other AV products. I should know, 90% of my post count came from answering them in another life
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . For them, often it is hard to justfy your fees when they get to install all of their own AV equipment and even make their own home theaters from scratch. For them, your industry is difficult to deal with where the answer is a black box solution with a long invoice and having to call someone to make any changes...



Your posts are replete with broad and inaccurate generalizations. In a few brief paragraphs you managed to state:


1. Light switches cost $2 or $300

2. The $300 light switch does a few things that are nice but not critical.

3. Our industry is “rough”.

4. Our industry does not do enough to justify the 150X increase in cost.

5. It is a fragmented industry lacking standards that would let a lot of things work without all that programming and increased costs as a result.

6. People who write checks and don’t ask a lot of questions drive our business.

7. Our industry is a “black box” solution with a long invoice.

8. People have to call us to make changes.


Responses to each:


1. There is a broad range of pricing on both non-automated and automated light switches. Why not instead compare the price of a $50 non-automated dimmer to a $50 automated dimmer? You stated in a thread last week that the price per load in your home is going to be $100. Why didn’t you mention that?


2. Specious argument that can be made about half the products on the face of the earth. The disagreement I have with your statement is you always state your personal opinion as if it has objective value. The market decides if the pricing is appropriate. If you don’t see the value, don’t buy it. In your opinion it does a few things that are nice but not critical. Others think differently. I share the same opinion on half the products on the face of the earth. If I end up with a billion dollars I doubt I’ll see the value on spending $3000 on a suit. What of it?


3. Um, OK.


4. Specious argument, see number 2 above. But of greater interest is that you stated that our industry “does not do enough to justify the 150X increase” (whatever that means) yet you just spent 50X the cost of the $2 light switch you chose as your starting point example. Are we to conclude that the 50X is the “magic” number and the 50X switch does things that are critical rather than just nice? Does that mean that our industry does justify the 50XC price increase but not the 150X price increase? The correct answer of course is that material objects have no inherent value, the market decides on their value. If enough people decide the cost increase is worth it for a more expensive product, the product will be successful. If not, the product will be unsuccessful.


5. You make it sound like some conspiracy meant to keep programming costs up. Do you realize that the number one gripe of many dealers is the need for programming? Anyhow, it is indeed a fragmented industry. There are standards (RG-6 is universal for cable and satellite TV for example) but I’d certainly like to see many more. The lack of standards is largely due to our free market society and it applies to almost all industries. Because of high competition between companies it’s hard to get them to sit down and decide on standards. Sony wants their standards to succeed and Toshiba wants theirs to succeed. The computer industry has more standards though it is not the thing of beauty many make it out to be, it has its own issues. Nevertheless, I’m hopeful that in the coming years we will see more open standards.


6. People often try to draw caricatures of who are customers are, or for that matter who DIY are, but they are often less than accurate. If there is one thing I have learned about wealthy people, it’s that most of them got that way because they have financial discipline. They do not give up their money easily. It is true that most of my Clients do not have in-depth conversations with me about LCOS verse DLP technology. But they ask a lot of questions and usually are very careful people. Also, my company works are the high end of the spectrum. It hardly represents the majority. There are a ton of CI's who work with a much more "normal" income segment.


But what is your real point here? It seems as though you think own opinions on "value" have some objective value, as if:

"Technical people are going to ask more questions and expect to measure the value" but "wealthy people are just going to write checks without asking questions and not make sure the value is there". It's an entirely faulty premise.


7. Um, OK.


8. That depends on the system they purchase, the agreement they strike with their dealer (even if Crestron does not provide software to end users that does not mean a dealer might not), and their own expertise (i.e are they capable of making changes themselves). And again, the market largely decides. If people do not want to purchase Crestron because Crestron will not provide their software to end users, then they have the choice of buying any number of products that will provide the software to end users.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14889319
> 
> 
> Since you are obviously implying something, why don't you explain to us why we hang around here?



I suspect it is two things:


1. To gain some customers in the process of showing what you know.


2. To have fun and pass the time.


> Quote:
> Your posts are replete with broad and inaccurate generalizations.



No more so that saying that buying an automated lighting is the same as investing in a Ferrari







.


> Quote:
> 1. There is a broad range of pricing on both non-automated and automated light switches. Why not instead compare the price of a $50 non-automated dimmer to a $50 automated dimmer? You stated in a thread last week that the price per load in your home is going to be $100. Why didn't you mention that?



I am not aware of any solution designed, programmed and installed by folks like yourself which finishes at $50. Or even $100. I would love to know what job any of you have done which has finished at these prices.


Yes, I managed to get close to $100 per load but I am doing all the system design and integration. Ans this is at dealer net cost, not what you all pass to your customers. Despite all the savings by going this route, I still have my doubts as to whether it is all worth it. What pushes me over the edge is the whole affair has become a hobby (damn you IVB







). If it were up to my wife, contractor and designer (both lighting and general), we would be using $2 switches. OK, maybe they would have pushed $10 variety







.


> Quote:
> 2. If you don't see the value, don't buy it. In your opinion it does a few things that are nice but not critical. Others think differently.



Well, I have already bought it







. So the question is not about me but the larger picture of why the industry is not able to entice more people to bite. It is a conversation I am interested in having, not a wrestling match







. You say some people think it is critical. I am interested to know such critical needs. Multiple posts later and no one has come out and say this thing cures cancer or some such thing







.


> Quote:
> 4. Specious argument, see number 2 above. But of greater interest is that you stated that our industry does not do enough to justify the 150X increase (whatever that means) yet you just spent 50X the cost of the $2 light switch you chose as your starting point example. Are we to conclude that the 50X is the magic number and the 50X switch does things that are critical rather than just nice?



No. Even at 50X it doesn't meet any critical need. Many people would baulk at 50X anything. The best flat panel and worst is probably 4X apart, not 50X. The Ferrari mentioned before is 3-10X more expensive than a Honda sedan. I am interested in cases where someone is not flush with cash and would need to justify such equipment. On what basis do they do that?


> Quote:
> Sony wants their standards to succeed and Toshiba wants theirs to succeed.



Yet they both agreed on HDMI and I can intermix their equipment.


> Quote:
> Nevertheless, I'm hopeful that in the coming years we will see more open standards.



Bless your heart







.


> Quote:
> But what is your real point here? It seems as though you think own opinions on "value" have some objective value, as if:
> 
> "Technical people are going to ask more questions and expect to measure the value" but "wealthy people are just going to write checks without asking questions and not make sure the value is there". It's an entirely faulty premise.



My point is simple. On AVS people want to learn and be able to do things on their own. There a lot of ISF calibration folks but one can buy the exact same tools they have to calibrate their own TVs. There are experts here that sell acoustical room treatments yet they are more than happy to answer questions on how someone could make their own. Retailers are available to sell us full range of products from high end to low end with significant discount. So one can come here, learn everything and choose to have someone do the work or not.


My impression of automation industry is that as soon as you step up beyond certain level, you are kind of stuck going through the CI channel. That remains my beef. There simply is not sufficient consumer choice to satisfy someone hanging around here.


> Quote:
> And again, the market largely decides. If people do not want to purchase Crestron because Crestron will not provide their software to end users, then they have the choice of buying any number of products that will provide the software to end users.



Just because the market decides doesn't mean we can't have a conversation about it, or that we are supposed to be happy about the way it works. Or that change cannot come about. I have made other constructive suggestions in this regard.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14889596
> 
> 
> I am not aware of any solution designed, programmed and installed by folks like yourself which finishes at $50. Or even $100.



X10 light switches are available for less than $20. Yes they are crap, but they are available.


Insteon has light switches available for less than $50. If your argument is that those are not that good, than it would seem you are agreeing there must be a reason to spend more.


Control4 has wireless dimmers and switches that retail for $99 each. So there you go.


But oops, evidently now they also have to be "designed, programmed and installed" for $99. I hear there is some good slave labor out there.


> Quote:
> I would love to know what job any of you have done which has finished at these prices.



Your first argument was that the switch cost $2 or $300 and that the 150x cost different was not justified. So I simply pointed out that the price spread you quoted was questionable and that there is a wide range of pricing on switches. Now I guess we’re supposed to include labor too.


> Quote:
> Yes, I managed to get close to $100 per load but I am doing all the system design and integration. And this is at dealer net cost, not what you all pass to your customers.



That price per load seems high for a CentraLite system. I’m guessing they are giving you the “special” price list.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14889596
> 
> 
> My impression of automation industry is that as soon as you step up beyond certain level, you are kind of stuck going through the CI channel. That remains my beef. There simply is not sufficient consumer choice to satisfy someone hanging around here.



Maybe it's your beef that causes the impression. There are tons of consumer choices. CQC has an incredibly robust forum of DIY people automating their homes. You just don't like that there are some companies whose products you'd like to buy that sell through authorized channels you don't want to but through. *That's* your beef. As you've stated before you want to buy Crestron in Best Buy. Welcome to the free market where supply and demand determines where and how we get to buy things. You don't like it when I say that. Fine, but it's the reality of how our market works. We can "have a conversation about it" all we like, but the bottom line is that when Crestron thinks they will sell more product through Best Buy then Crestron they'll drop the CI channel in an instant. As I've said before, there are things I buy every day of the week that I'd "like" to buy a different way. Sarcasm> I'd like to bypass the naughty HVAC company I have to call to service my Trane system. How dare I have to go through them? I want to buy the parts on the Internet! How dare Jacuzzi make me go through of their authorized Jacuzzi dealers?! And when I wanted parts I had to pay their authorized dealer not only to fix it, but they got to mark up the parts on me! Oh, the HORROR of it all! Don't they know they would sell 10x as many Jacuzzi's if they let me buy them through my lumber yard? Don't these silly companies grasp that they would "entice more people to bite" if they just made it easier to get a Jacuzzi?


I have a high-end graphics card sitting a few feet from me on which the fan has gone out. I called the manufacturer (Matrox) and they would not send me a new fan. I have to send it in to them to get repaired. It irritates me, but that's life. How dare they set that policy because they don't want people taking their graphics cards apart?! I bet there are just trying to protect the profits of their service channel! It seems positively unAmerican! I have a beef!


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14889816
> 
> 
> X10 light switches are available for less than $20. Yes they are crap, but they are available.
> 
> 
> Insteon has light switches available for less than $50. If your argument is that those are not that good, than it would seem you are agreeing there must be a reason to spend more.



That is not my argument. My argument is with custom installers trying to justfy their services in this thread. Their services do not include installing X-10 dimmers for $20 or even Insteon for $50. So once more, I am asking how they justify the purchases of $300 switches. What it is that their customers see who have to work for a living.


> Quote:
> That price per load seems high for a CentraLite system. I'm guessing they are giving you the special price list.



They are not giving me anything. Price I mentioned comes out of distributor catalog you all would shop from







. As you know, they also don't sell direct. And they tell me that all dealers get the same price including the one I am purchasing through.


So as to get some useful information out this back and forth







, what do you say the installed and programmed cost of a Crestron/Lutron load is? Pick a reasonably large house if helps, with 48 loads. Leave out the wiring cost.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14889915
> 
> 
> That is not my argument. My argument is with custom installers trying to justfy their services in this thread. Their services do not include installing X-10 dimmers for $20 or even Insteon for $50. So once more, I am asking how they justify the purchases of $300 switches. What it is that their customers see who have to work for a living.



First of all, I don't believe I've ever worked for anyone who doesn't have to work for a living, it's usually *because* they work a lot that they have acquired the wealth that they have. I just want to add that little clarification since I always enjoy hearing quips about people who "work for a living" as if wealthy people do not "work for a living".


Having gotten that out of the way, what exactly am I supposed to be "justifying" here? Am I supposed to write a long post justifying why a Lutron system is superior to an Insteon system? Why it's superior to a $2 light switch? Why it's 150x superior to a $2 light switch (a hard wired Lutron switch actually retails for $150 BTW, Not $300). What is our reference? What are we comparing against? What *precisely* am I supposed to "justify"?



> Quote:
> They are not giving me anything. Price I mentioned comes out of distributor catalog you all would shop from
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . As you know, they also don't sell direct. And they tell me that all dealers get the same price including the one I am purchasing through.



When they contacted me asking us to come on as a dealer they most definitely sold direct though it's possible that has changed. I did not suggest that they were giving you anything, I suggested the opposite. And yes, I'm sure that all dealers get the same pricing and that you are getting the same pricing as a dealer. I mean, they couldn't possibly be just telling you what you desperately want to hear. I've certainly never heard of that happening. "OK, let's tell this guy he is getting distributor pricing, tell him this is what all dealers pay, and he'll be happier than a pig in **** thinking no CI will be getting a naughty markup". Naaa, they couldn't possibly be doing that to you, they'd never get that by you. I guess the price per load has just gone up a lot since they send me pricing.



> Quote:
> So as to get some useful information out this back and forth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , what do you say the installed and programmed cost of a Crestron/Lutron load is? Pick a reasonably large house if helps, with 48 loads. Leave out the wiring cost.



Send me a set of blueprints in AutoCAD format along with a design retailer and I'll be happy to spend a few days working with you to obtain all the information I would need to give you a meaningful analysis. Otherwise, you'll have to settle for the fact that the cost for a *hard wired* Lutron switch (including central dimming modules) is about $150 per load, not including keypads nor the many other options that are available. Or you can go with my statement in the other thread that there are a lot of variables and that the range could be $5 to $10 per square foot for a fully automated system if you are talking about Lutron Homeworks, Crestron or Vantage. Other options would be less.


----------



## QQQ

BTW amirm, what Centralite system are you purchasing? It it all centralized? How are you calculating your cost per load?


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14890204
> 
> 
> BTW amirm, what Centralite system are you purchasing? It it all centralized? How are you calculating your cost per load?



Original design was based on Elite which at 48 loads, has a cost of roughly $80/load for the controller. By the time you add some keypad, the cost goes up to $105 or so depending on number of buttons. However, it seems that we have blown past that many loads and are planning to go with the newer Elegance XL series (72 loads).


Programming is free for above as it is a simple Windows app. So there are no other costs other than what the electrician has to do.


> Quote:
> When they contacted me asking us to come on as a dealer they most definitely sold direct though it's possible that has changed. I did not suggest that they were giving you anything, I suggested the opposite. And yes, I'm sure that all dealers get the same pricing and that you are getting the same pricing as a dealer. I mean, they couldn't possibly be just telling you what you desperately want to hear. I've certainly never heard of that happening. "OK, let's tell this guy he is getting distributor pricing, tell him this is what all dealers pay, and he'll be happier than a pig in **** thinking no CI will be getting a naughty markup". Naaa, they couldn't possibly be doing that to you, they'd never get that by you. I guess the price per load has just gone up a lot since they send me pricing.



Once more, the cost did not come from Centralite. It comes directly from a major distributor of parts to CI industry sitting in front of me in print. It is true that the Litjet series was exceptionally competitive when it came out. But the higher end boxes are a bit more pricey although not much. I have a two year old catalog of the above distributor and the price is more or less the same.


Of course, the distributor gets a lower price than what they are selling it for so perhaps that is what you are thinking about.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14890185
> 
> 
> Otherwise, you'll have to settle for the fact that the cost for a *hard wired* Lutron switch (including central dimming modules) is about $150 per load, not including keypads nor the many other options that are available.



How much are the keypads? Since they have microprocessors in them, I supsect they are quite expensive.


----------



## QQQ

Most of the hard wired keypads retail for $260.


----------



## Syphon Filter

Before anyone gets too carried away I was the one that said our industry was "rough"


All I meant by that is that it's a competitive industry and the margins are not as big as people may think once you factor in things like design, install, programming etc.


Also, why is there a problem with a system that needs programming? From my point of view a fully programmable system provides the greatest flexibilty and longevity.


With a Crestron system for example (AMX and others too) you can control ANYTHING that has an IR, serial (RS-232/485/422) or IP interface. With serial and IP you get full 2 way control and feedback...what about the ability to display RSS feeds onto your control UI's? Multi-language UI's at the touch of a button? Got a guest on your yacht that cant read english, no problem the panel can recongifure itself into another language at the touch of a button.


With regards to lighting, with a simple switch you get on or off control. With a Lutron system you get proper scene setting, energy saving options (did you now that running a light fitting at 90% of full power saves you a lot of engery but the light output is almost negligable. Also what about vaction mode? Automated pathways? Night modes so you dont blind yourself getting a glass of water or going for a pee at 2am? A lot of our clients have art galleries in their homes but they want an automated way of lighting up different pieces as they show their friends around, with Lutron you can do that, not just from a Lutron keypad, but a Crestron/AMX panel or interface. Lutron Homeworks has an (very accurate) astronomic timeclock in it, how about programming the system to behave differently based on day/night cycle? People aks for this stuff and there's certainly a benefit to them.


What about HVAC and security integration? Full control of your heating and aircon without the need for more wall panels and thermostats? No alarm keypads knocking around just your Crestron touchscreen to access all the functionality of your house from a single unified user interface. The aesthetic value is as great as the functional value. Our clients and their interior designers dont want 5 wallplates in each room, one for a/c, heating, security, av and lighting. They want a single user interface which gives them intuitive and flexible control over their home systems. A good CI can give you all of this.


Christ when I move out of my current place I intend on going down the homeworks and Crestron route, it's a little over my budget but I think it will be well worth it!!


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14890185
> 
> 
> (a hard wired Lutron switch actually retails for $150 BTW, Not $300).





> Quote:
> Most of the hard wired keypads retail for $260.



So is my math right that if I had one keypad per load, I am looking at $150+$260 = $410? If so, that is even higher than the $300 estimate I used







. Yes I realized that keypads can be shared but still, this is a huge premium over other solutions.


So your customers who are still working for a living, must work even harder to get that light to dim







.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Syphon Filter* /forum/post/14890691
> 
> 
> With regards to lighting, with a simple switch you get on or off control. With a Lutron system you get proper scene setting, energy saving options (did you now that running a light fitting at 90% of full power saves you a lot of engery but the light output is almost negligable.



Well, running a light at 90% saves only 10% of power; exactly what it says







. Which is not a lot of savings. Let me see now. I pay 8 cents a Killowatt here. If I use a 100 watt light, I will be saving 10 watts/hour. Let's assume the light is on for 6 hours every day of the year on the average. That is 21.9 Killowatts/year or $1.75 in savings.


If I paid $300+ for the ability to have that savings using Lutron/Crestron, it would take 171 years for me to break even! So much for that benefit







.


And this is not any more "green" than a $2 switch either. It takes a lot of natural resources to create all of those electronics, paying people to drive back and forth using gas to wire and program the place, etc.


BTW, I knew this would be listed as the first benefit as it is on every lighting automation web site







. But it shows how little thought is put into creating the benefit list when it can be torn apart so easily.


And you can accomplish the same by putting a bulb rated at higher voltage as I do in my house (for cans). It likewise runs at 90% light output and lasts longer (the other benefit touted).


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14892274
> 
> 
> So is my math right that if I had one keypad per load, I am looking at $150+$260 = $410? If so, that is even higher than the $300 estimate I used
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Yes I realized that keypads can be shared but still, this is a huge premium over other solutions.
> 
> 
> So your customers who are still working for a living, must work even harder to get that light to dim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Sigh.


1. You would *never* have one keypad per load. The entire point of using a keypad is that it's not load dependent!


2. More importantly, it's an irrelevant comparison. If a person wants to use keypads everywhere, that's a *choice* they are making, because they want the infinite flexibility that comes with that. It's *not* required. They could instead just replace the switches and use a few keypads here and there.


If you want to make a comparison, compare something remotely similar. If I want to compare the price of a Mac and a PC, I should compare something similar. Not use the most basic PC as my option, and then totally max out a Mac Pro and say "aha see, it's crazy more expensive".


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14892570
> 
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> 
> 1. You would *never* have one keypad per load. The entire point of using a keypad is that it's not load dependent!



I noted that. Please re-read. That is why I am not using the $410 number. I am assuming a 70% ratio. See more below on why I don't prefer to go much lower than this ratio.



> Quote:
> 2. More importantly, it's an irrelevant comparison. If a person wants to use keypads everywhere, that's a *choice* they are making, because they want the infinite flexibility that comes with that. It's *not* required. They could instead just replace the switches and use a few keypads here and there.



I see keypads replacing gang boxes in shared areas. But I don't see how you can say, remove a keypad from a closet, bathroom, individual bedrooms, etc. With $2 switches, I don't have to walk down the hall to change the light. I think keypads with many switches are not very user friendly so I am not going to put everything in one pad.



> Quote:
> If you want to make a comparison, compare something remotely similar. If I want to compare the price of a Mac and a PC, I should compare something similar. Not use the most basic PC as my option, and then totally max out a Mac Pro and say "aha see, it's crazy more expensive".



Please, for heaven's sake, let's not keep using analogies. Why is it so hard to stay on topic? A Mac is not a lighting solution and neither is a PC....


So back to my question, what is the average ratio of keypads to loads you want to use and why?


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14892624
> 
> 
> I think keypads with many switches are not very user friendly so I am not going to put everything in one pad.



The entire point of keypads for most people is that you stop thinking in terms of "switches" or "loads". Take an average room. Because of wattage limitations on dimmers you frequently have 2 or 3 dimmers for the ceiling lights. But people rarely turn on one bank of ceiling lights and not the other. They turn them all on. So with a keypad there is absolutely no need to have 3 separate buttons for those 3 loads, you tie them together and they always go on with one button.


> Quote:
> Please, for heaven's sake, let's not keep using analogies. Why is it so hard to stay on topic? A Mac is not a lighting solution and neither is a PC....\\



Then please for heavens sake stop making silly comparisons. You want to pound a square peg into a round hole to prove a point, so you can make some calculation and say "aha"!


> Quote:
> So back to my question, what is the average ratio of keypads to loads you want to use and why?



There is no average ratio because loads don't matter with a keypad. If you have a button on a keypad that adjusts lights throughout the house, it could adjust 50 loads. That's the entire point of using a keypad. And with a keypad tomorrow I can decide that a button does something different and make it control a different load/s. Maybe we should add in some calculation regarding what it would cost to totally rewire a home using conventional switches every time someone decides they want a switch to control something different, and then I can counter argue how a keypad system is cheaper when you calculate what it would cost to constnatly rewuire everything







. BTW, you do realize that with a Lutron and Crestron system a dimmer/switch is also a programmable device, right







? And that I can even program a dimmer to activate a scene?


But to try to answer your question, on a typical keypad I'm going to have a button that adjusts all the loads in the room to a preset level of the clients choice. If there is a load they might want to control individually, such as a sconce, I might give them a dedicated button for that. I'm also usually going to give them a button to control all the loads in the next room. So if you want to use the average keypad I work with and exclude house scenes, I'd guess 10 loads per keypad.


Now again, central and local control can be combined. So there's no need to use a keypad in every room unless you want to. Make sure to include that in your calcs







.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14892732
> 
> 
> So if you want to use the average keypad I work with and exclude house scenes, I'd guess 10 loads per keypad.



So for the sake of discussion, if I wanted to automated our current house which has about 50 loads/switches, you would think on the average this would call for 5 keypads? If so, where would you place them?


----------



## buckswope




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14893797
> 
> 
> So for the sake of discussion, if I wanted to automated our current house which has about 50 loads/switches, you would think on the average this would call for 5 keypads? If so, where would you place them?



For a techie you're asking some surprisingly entry level questions.


You would want a keypad wherever there is a light switch or group of light switches, typically at the entrance/exit/transition point between rooms.


Keypads are not fancy go-fasters designed to jack the price up on a lighting control system, they serve in place of one or more ganged regular switches.


Are you working from an architectural floor plan that would include an electrical plan, or is this an abstract conversation?


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *buckswope* /forum/post/14894051
> 
> 
> For a techie you're asking some surprisingly entry level questions.



All is not what it seems







. He said he would use only 10% of the switches and I wanted to walk him through an example and see how is able to dig is his way out of that statement







. You spoiled my game







.


In our new house ,we will have about 60 loads and there is no way I can see using just 6 kepads for a 2.5 story house. I have not yet finalized the number but I suspect I will land in the 50 to 70% range, not 10%.



> Quote:
> You would want a keypad wherever there is a light switch or group of light switches, typically at the entrance/exit/transition point between rooms.



Exactly right. And using this logic, I don't see anyway you can wind up with one switch per 10 loads. At least not in our household or mode of operation.



> Quote:
> Keypads are not fancy go-fasters designed to jack the price up on a lighting control system, they serve in place of one or more ganged regular switches. Are you working from an architectural floor plan that would include an electrical plan, or is this an abstract conversation?



It was an abstract discussion and not related to our use case. As you rightfully state, I am replacing gang switches with a multi-button keypad. But beyond that, we have keypads placed where people expect them.


My goal is not force anyone coming to our house to have to read a manual to figure out how to operate the house. Anywhere normally expected to have a switch, there will be a switch. I also am not a fan of a keypad with many buttons that requires bending down to read the labels to operate them. Have been to too many houses done that way and see the difficulty of figuring out how to turn a simple light on. So 4 buttons is probably the max I will use, with a preference for 3. Hope to use top for On, the buttom for Off and the middel for some automation/scene logic. On this front, if you have some feedback, it is much appreciated as next week is the planning phase for keypads...


----------



## buckswope




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14894213
> 
> 
> In our new house ,we will have about 60 loads and there is no way I can see using just 6 kepads for a 2.5 story house. I have not yet finalized the number but I suspect I will land in the 50 to 70% range, not 10%.



That seems impossibly light for a 2 1/2 story house. A normal kitchen has four loads, a "fancy" one twelve. A normal master bath has four, a fancy one eight or more. I'm presuming you're not doing any exterior lighting under the control umbrella; a big mistake.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14894213
> 
> 
> It was an abstract discussion and not related to our use case. As you rightfully state, I am replacing gang switches with a multi-button keypad. But beyond that, we have keypads placed where people expect them.



I have a better idea; how about placing keypads where the NEC dictates they must be? Follow the directions of the architect, or learn the NEC on this topic. Need a citation?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14894213
> 
> 
> My goal is not force anyone coming to our house to have to read a manual to figure out how to operate the house. Anywhere normally expected to have a switch, there will be a switch. I also am not a fan of a keypad with many buttons that requires bending down to read the labels to operate them.



A correct designed lighting control system is simple to use. It _must_ be, because others will need to move about the home outside of the occupants; guests, housekeepers, service providers. Everyone needs to be able to turn lights on & off; it's a safety issue before a convenience or features question. A correctly designed system is the hallmark of a professional, and a difficult system the albatross of the amateur.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *buckswope* /forum/post/14894419
> 
> 
> That seems impossibly light for a 2 1/2 story house. A normal kitchen has four loads, a "fancy" one twelve. A normal master bath has four, a fancy one eight or more. I'm presuming you're not doing any exterior lighting under the control umbrella; a big mistake.



Not sure why you think it is so light. I think we are at 63-65 loads and this is based on everything being controlled, including exterior lights. It does not include much landscape lighting as we are not big on that (nor is there much space for them -- the house is on slope). I think we have a couple allowed for that for good measure. The list may grow a bit now that we are getting a 75-load controller but everything was done in consultation with our lighting designer and no corners were cut.


Our kitchen does indeed have 4 loads (if you count the under cabinet lighting). We are the type that has everything on or not in the kitchen so we didn't go crazy creating many seperate loads. I don't remember the count for Master Bath but it is also around 4.



> Quote:
> I have a better idea; how about placing keypads where the NEC dictates they must be? Follow the directions of the architect, or learn the NEC on this topic. Need a citation?



Thanks. I don't need that as I am working collaboratively with our electrician in that area and doing the walk-through with him.


> Quote:
> A correct designed lighting control system is simple to use. It _must_ be, because others will need to move about the home outside of the occupants; guests, housekeepers, service providers. Everyone needs to be able to turn lights on & off; it's a safety issue before a convenience or features question. A correctly designed system is the hallmark of a professional, and a difficult system the albatross of the amateur.



Well the houses I have had issues with were done by professionals. Whether they know what they are doing or not, I can't say. My realtor also complains bitterly about many houses with automation where they walk in and can't figure out how to turn on the lights. My builder stands right in line with him in not liking it, even though he most does high end remodels where such things are often put in.


The above is one of the main reasons I am doing all the lighting automatoin design and want to have the ability to fine tune as needed.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14894213
> 
> 
> All is not what it seems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . He said he would use only 10% of the switches and I wanted to walk him through an example and see how is able to dig is his way out of that statement
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . You spoiled my game
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Nowhere did I say anything about using "10% of the switches". You asked me what the “average ratio of keypads to loads you want to use and why”?


I stated there is no “average ratio” because loads don't matter with a keypad. Technically one could come up with some type of estimate but it could vary so much depending on so many factors that I find it to be meaningless. Some systems employ keypads that mainly do scenes. Other systems employ double gang keypads where one side does scenes and the other side does individual loads. Some put a household scene such as home or entertain on each most keypads, some only near the front door and master bedroom. Change any of those variables and you would drastically change the equation. As I explained, the entire purpose of a keypad type system is to stop thinking about individual loads because any button can do anything.


I did my best to give you a meaningful answer and said that if you wanted to know how many loads I controlled on an average keypad, which in no way related to ratios, that the answer was about 10 loads per keypad and I explained that would include all the lights in the room the keypad is in as well as all the lights in the next room. The houses I work in are usually decent sized and it's not at all unusual to have 5 loads in a room. So that's 5 loads in that room and as they walk to or from the next room I like them to be able to turn off/on the lights in the other room, so that's 5 loads in the next room for 10 loads total. And of course that's an estimate, and would vary by house and room. And I pointed out that excluded house scenes, which again would drastically affect the equation. Because a keypad dedicated to house scenes could easily adjust 250 loads (and in fact a lot more). Let’s say 50 for each house scene button, 5 scene buttons total, that’s 250 loads adjusted. And before you pick that apart that would be very common, because a scene button not only adjust on but off, so it might set 20 lights to on and 30 lights to off, so that’s 50 loads total on a button. And yes, if you want to break that down by loads in the keypad instead of loads on each button it would be 50, so no need to catch me with that “gothca”.


Anyhow, nowhere did I say that 10-1 represented the ratio of keypads to loads. And yes, the answer as anyone should be able to figure out is that if you are using a centrally wired system, you would put keypads, gasp and gotcha, wherever you want to be able to control the lights from.


I was trying to give you some meaningful answers to your questions and now you announce that you were playing games.


----------



## buckswope




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14894596
> 
> 
> Well the houses I have had issues with were done by professionals. Whether they know what they are doing or not, I can't say. My realtor also complains bitterly about many houses with automation where they walk in and can't figure out how to turn on the lights. My builder stands right in line with him in not liking it, even though he most does high end remodels where such things are often put in.



I'm sorry to hear that. My industry could do with a few less black eyes.


FWIW I had a client, a 70+ year old woman, tell me just yesterday, unprompted, that she found her brand new lighting automation system simple to use.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14894609
> 
> 
> I was trying to give you some meaningful answers to your questions and now you announce that you were playing games.



The subject was trying to figure out how much it costs at the end of the day to wire up a house using $2 switches or with Crestron/Lutron. I did my best to arrive at an average comparable dollar ($300). You objected saying it is $150. I am trying to understand how you arrived at that number.


The game playing had implicit in it, making no assumption about what you meant but rather having you explain it using a realistic example I provided. Instead of jumping up and down and saying it ain't so, I wanted to give you the opportunity to explain without any pre-characterization.


Anyway, I am still interested to know how you would solve the above riddle. If you prefer to not answer in abstract, that's fine. But I will then continue to use the $300/load number I arrived at after researching all the systems for my installation







.


FYI, the is a reason I am pushing this point. When doing my research, I was shocked that there was no data anywhere, on how much a hardwired lighting system costs. How is one supposed to think about budgeting for such a feature when there is such a dearth of information? I am hoping this thread helps the next guy who attempts to do such a search, but doesn't have an opportunity to go to CEDIA (or have access to distributor catalog) to get those numbers.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14894796
> 
> 
> The subject was trying to figure out how much it costs at the end of the day to wire up a house using $2 switches or with Crestron/Lutron. I did my best to arrive at an average comparable dollar ($300). You objected saying it is $150



I did not. You stated that a *light switch* was $2 or $300 and I pointed out that they were available for $150.


> Quote:
> I am trying to understand how you arrived at that number.



I stated it quite clearly at the outset, here it is again below!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Otherwise, you'll have to settle for the fact that the cost for a hard wired Lutron switch (including central dimming modules) is about $150 per load, not including keypads nor the many other options that are available.



What is to understand?! That’s the retail price of a Lutron Homeworks light switch! And it’s also about the price per load if you take a Lutron central dimmer module and divide the retail price of the module by the number of loads. And I took care to emphasize that keypads were not included in that price and had to be calculated separately.


> Quote:
> Anyway, I am still interested to know how you would solve the above riddle. If you prefer to not answer in abstract, that's fine. But I will then continue to use the $300/load number I arrived at after researching all the systems for my installation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Use whatever number you want to pursue your obsession of trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. Make it $1000 per load if you want. The cost of construction per square foot is going to vary based on the materials used as well as many other factors (there I go again with those pesky analogies you dislike so much). Similarly the cost of any lighting system is going to vary based on a number of factors so it is meaningless to say “$300 per load” or “$150 per load” or $600 per load” when in fact it is going to be a range. I explained why that range can vary greatly and how even a few simple design decisions can affect the equation. I expressed a range in square footage but evidently you want a precise estimate per load. So I told you what the cost per load is, which is straightforward and far more meaningful than trying to figure out ratios, because it’s fixed and doesn’t change. In other words, the cost per load is about $150. Period. NOW start to decide how many rooms you want to wire centrally (and put only keypads in) or locally (and put dimmers in)… then start to decide how many keypads you want...if you do only central dimming you are going to want them everywhere, if you do a combination of central and local dimming you may decide to cut costs and start with 6 because you still have dimmers everywhere. And now you have a really good baseline to calculate a *meaningful* price. You refuse to accept that, fine. You are more interesting in arguing and trying to prove someone wrong who was trying to give you real information. Then use your bogus $300 per load number, but it’s not going to help anyone as you claim to want to do, because it might be close, or it might be wildly inaccurate.


And BTW, one could express a range for loads if you just want some wild ass estimate, and it would vary, just as $5 to $10 per square foot varies. So it would be the same thing expressed a different way. So how about this? You don't want to accept this. You want an exact number so lets pound that square peg in that round hole, because I want to make you happy. The average cost per load is $203.47. The average cost for a video projector is $2598. And the average cost for kitchen cabinetry is $24.89 per pound. And the average cost for a car is $34,821. Now you can sleep soundly knowing the facts.


----------



## amirm

So let's see if this is a summary you agree with:


1. A traditional system costs $2/load to control the load (dumb switches).


2. A Centralite system costs $80 to control the load (fully centralized).


3. A Lutron system costs $150 to control the load (fully centralized).


Are we in sync so far?


Now here is the other bit I was hoping to get at as a *rough estimate* when one includes the cost of user interface (switches).


1. A traditional system costs $2 to control and interface to each load.


2. A Centralite system package is available which costs $2000 for a 24-load controller plus 5 4-button keypads, 5 3-button keypads, 5 2- button keypads and 1 1-button keypad. Assuming those 16 keypads do the job, the cost per controlled load including its interface is $2000/24 = $83.


3. A Lutron system package similar to #2 costs what?


----------



## QQQ

I think we've played enough of your games amirm.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14895312
> 
> 
> I think we've played enough of your games amirm.



My appologies for whatever angst which led to this.


Now, what I am going to do with my time until it is time to go to bed







.


Take care Q.


----------



## Syphon Filter

Interesting that amirm only picked on one of my "benefits".


Nothing to say about any of the other points that I made? Also amir, who do you work for? Wouldnt happen to be a large consultancy firm would it?


EDIT:


Also your arguments about the lighting control systems appear to be based on controlling 1 load with 1 keypad, this is not how control systems are used. Typically one of our clients would have at least 5 loads in a room: downlighters, pendant, wall, art and 5A. So now having a keypad gives you control over all 5 of those loads and scene settings etc.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Syphon Filter* /forum/post/14895704
> 
> 
> Interesting that amirm only picked on one of my "benefits".



You mean you didn't see enough fighting on that one topic alone? Let me guess: someone is selling tickets to come and watch this fight







.



> Quote:
> Nothing to say about any of the other points that I made?



Your response was related to this statement I made earlier:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14885430
> 
> 
> Back to the topic, your description misses the forrest from trees as far as I am concerned. My issue with charges for everything is one of value. I get to replace a $2 light switch with a $300 one when it is all said and done. And for that, I get a few things that are nice. Not critical, but nice. That is why your industry is "rough." It hasn't done enough to justify the 150X increase in cost. It is a fragmented industry lacking standards that would let a lot of things work without all that programming and increased costs as a result.



I was very specific on what I picked on. Q and others who have seen my past rants know that I don't have a beef about everything the industry does, but a few specific things. Top of that list is the high cost of hardwired lighting automation. Not only do we start with high costs here, but also add to it high margins (to the equipment) and programming costs, making the solution essentially one for very few, rather than the masses.


More importantly, there are no options for one to (easily) get around the cost factors. You listed other benefits such as HVAC and equipment control. All of those have alternatives from CQC to HAI and ELK on up. So I have less to complain about







.


I guess this is a good time to clarify something important. As I have studied this field, it is clear that the integration job is very complex. Without a lot of studying one can easily go down the wrong road. So there is no question that you all perform a valuable service and should get paid well to make sense out of it. None of that is at issue, nor is this a personal discussion aimed at anyone specifically. So I hope hope we don't lose more people as we have this conversation







.


What you are facing is th frustration from someone attempting to do this on his own (for good or bad), yet finding almost too many roadblocks in getting there. And I have highlighted the key one and suggested (in other threads) some ways the issue can be mitigated. Every few days I see someone ask for a DIY solution to hardwired lighting and I have nothing to offer. It shouldn't be that way. We should have choices here.



> Quote:
> Also amir, who do you work for? Wouldnt happen to be a large consultancy firm would it?



No it wouldn't. I don't work for anyone. I write articles from time to time for WSR magazine but don't get paid for that either. If you like to know more about me, here is some stale tidbits: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/e...m/default.mspx . I guess the reason Q and I lock horns often is that I don't work for a living right now so I am not his typical customer.










Answering other related question asked earlier, my degree is in Electrical Engineering even though about 70% of my professional experience has been in software development. I grew up designing analog and digital electronics so it was natural to get an EE degree but happen to like software design more than hardware so spent more of my career in that area. Perhaps this is what drives me to question to high cost of some pieces of electronics here. I can see that the lost opportunities for efficiency and cost reduction.


Is it not possible for someone to have this conversation without an ulterior motive?


> Quote:
> Also your arguments about the lighting control systems appear to be based on controlling 1 load with 1 keypad, this is not how control systems are used. Typically one of our clients would have at least 5 loads in a room: downlighters, pendant, wall, art and 5A. So now having a keypad gives you control over all 5 of those loads and scene settings etc.



I don't hang art, have pendant, etc. in most of the rooms in our house. I do have them in the kitchen and the living room but that is it. There, I do get high reduction of keypads to loads. But in the rest of the house, as noted, one has to have a keypad whether it controls one load or 10. Every access point needs one and that drives the cost sky high, when we are talking about $200+ keypads. I would have never put in this system if those were the prices I had to pay. As I mentioned, even at the place I am with $40 keypads, I have not been able to justify the benefits, even though I can sing them better than just about anyone here







.


----------



## WayneDB123

I think one of the great benefits of Automated lighting is for people like me, I spend most of my life in a hospital style bed in my master bedroom. Getting up to turn stuff on and off is not easy for me and automation is a godsend. I used to use cheap $50 Insteon dimmers but the PLC's have not been reliable, I switched to Lutron not because I wanted to pay $140 for a dimmer but because reliability is worth something to me.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14897032
> 
> 
> Q and others who have seen my past rants know that I don't have a beef about everything the industry does, but a few specific things. Top of that list is the high cost of hardwired lighting automation. Not only do we start with high costs here, but also add to it high margins (to the equipment) and programming costs, making the solution essentially one for very few, rather than the masses.



Says the guy that got wealthy working for a company that makes the profit margins in my industry look like dumpster pickings. And BTW, since when does everything have to be "available to the masses"?



> Quote:
> What you are facing is th frustration from someone attempting to do this on his own (for good or bad), yet finding almost too many roadblocks in getting there.



The fact that I can't purchase a car direct from a manufacturer and bypass an authorized dealer isn't a "roadblock".



> Quote:
> And I have highlighted the key one and suggested (in other threads) some ways the issue can be mitigated.



Like your suggestion that Crestron should sell through Best Buy?



> Quote:
> Every few days I see someone ask for a DIY solution to hardwired lighting and I have nothing to offer. It shouldn't be that way. We should have choices here.



The fact that you can't have your way doesn't mean you don't have choices.


And again, as has been pointed out repeatedly and endlessly, you have a ton of choices. I have a ton of choices when buying a car. The fact that I can't buy that Mercedes the way I want doesn't mean I don't have a choice. Now you can reply and claim that Lutron isn't a Mercedes and the analogy is not appropriate. But it's a perfect analogy.



> Quote:
> I grew up designing analog and digital electronics so it was natural to get an EE degree but happen to like software design more than hardware so spent more of my career in that area. Perhaps this is what drives me to question to high cost of some pieces of electronics here.



That and your refusal to acknowledge the basic rules of economics such as supply and demand and economies of scale. No one but an idiot would deny that the products in my industry are "overpriced" if the comparison is a computer or TV. Such is the case with every market there is. I can buy Windows Vista for $300 or a piece of business software for $300,000. Does that mean that the business piece of software had more engineers or work put into it? That it cost more to develop? Of course not. Has 0 to do with the equation.



> Quote:
> I can see that the lost opportunities for efficiency and cost reduction



Yes, I believe you've made a number of suggestions to improve those efficiencies that would wipe Crestron out in a day such as to sell through Best Buy. But if you see all these lost opportunities, and the market is so inefficient, it sounds like the perfect market for you to invest in and start a company in







. Show all these billion dollar companies how to do it. Although I must say, we do have a product that was designed for the masses, you might call it the Windows Vista of lighting. It's called X-10







. It's slow and evens works sometimes but not others. But I hear X-7 is going to fix all that.



> Quote:
> Is it not possible for someone to have this conversation without an ulterior motive?



Says the guy that keeps suggesting ulterior motives on the part of others. BTW, you just spent an entire post explaining your ulterior motives. Or do those not qualify as motives?


----------



## amirm

Good to see you back Q. But a post like this a few pages back, didn't think you would:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/12958968
> 
> 
> Ah, the old forum kiss off of "I'm done with you, have a nice life". What forum would be complete without it...
> 
> 
> ...but wait, I thought you were done with him and here you go again....
> 
> 
> I think you now owe it to everyone to at least offer a final "I'm done with this".













> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14898163
> 
> 
> Says the guy that got wealthy working for a company that makes the profit margins in my industry look like dumpster pickings.



How soon we go from having respect for people who have earned their money through hard work to folks dealing with dumpster pickings. I guess I should have you work on my system to move to the honorable side







.


Seriously, I said nothing here is personal and I hope that is a two way street. I am not the topic of the discussion here, your industry is.


> Quote:
> And BTW, since when does everything have to be "available to the masses"?



Not everything should be available to the masses. But I hope we both agree that the masses would benefit from lighting automation. Wayne just hit the nail on the head: lighting system can provide safety benefits. This was and is the #1 reason I got interested in lighting. Every night I turn off the lights and fumble in the dark to go the bedroom. I worry about tripping over things. If the industry was wise, it would hype this up, not saving 10% on electricity and getting 10% less light at the same time







.


And it is not just me saying your industry thinks mass market should be served. Here is an article from CEpro: http://www.cepro.com/article/what_wi...on_mainstream/ 

*What Will Make Home Automation Mainstream?*
*Price*, installation and competitive advantages needed to trickle home automation down.


When does hardwired lighting trickle down in your book? Never?


> Quote:
> The fact that I can't purchase a car direct from a manufacturer and bypass an authorized dealer isn't a "roadblock".



Yeah, yeah, yeah. More car analogies. I can look up the cost for any car online in a few seconds and even buy it through the same channel. Please show me how I can do that for Crestron/Lutron. Didn't I say car analogies can be used for anything? I thought I did







.


> Quote:
> Like your suggestion that Crestron should sell through Best Buy?



No, like my suggestion to standardize keypads. In doing so, we can see the benefits of much larger market being serviced with lower cost entrants coming in than likes of Crestron and Lutron. And with it, we all benefit from much wider array of products than getting stuck with their vertical solution.


And yes, once the keypads are standardized, the control unit follows. And with that, we get more choices there too. What's more, if something goes wrong with the system, I have options in the future. Heaven forbid one of these companies with proprietary wiring go out of business or change their architecture. With a $2 switch I don't worry about this. With a house wired the way they want, I better pray for a continuous supply of well-to-do customers or I am in trouble.


> Quote:
> Yes, I believe you've made a number of suggestions to improve those efficiencies that would wipe Crestron out in a day such as to sell through Best Buy.



And I should cry if Crestron finds it harder to compete in a different market dynamics? Shoot, why are *you* crying on their behalf? If they are good company (and I believe they are), then they should be able to do well no matter what. You derided my ex-employer but they figured out how to stay alive as the world changed in two decades. What sense of entitlement there is then for Crestron to keep things the same?


> Quote:
> Says the guy that keeps suggesting ulterior motives on the part of others. BTW, you just spent an entire post explaining your ulterior motives. Or do those not qualify as motives?



They qualify as motives but not ulterior motives. Surely you don't need me to explain the difference. I gain nothing if Crestron makes twice or half as much money. I suspect the latter means you have half the opportunity. So in that sense, I don't think we are similarly situated so I wouldn't keep going down this path














. Or keep making this a personal back and forth.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WayneDB123* /forum/post/14898117
> 
> 
> I think one of the great benefits of Automated lighting is for people like me, I spend most of my life in a hospital style bed in my master bedroom. Getting up to turn stuff on and off is not easy for me and automation is a godsend. I used to use cheap $50 Insteon dimmers but the PLC's have not been reliable, I switched to Lutron not because I wanted to pay $140 for a dimmer but because reliability is worth something to me.



As I just noted, this is precisely the direction their marketing should go. Thanks for bringing in front and center with specific scenario.

*Hardwired* (i.e. 100% reliable) lighting automation should be installed in a much broader market than it is today. It needs to move from luxury category to everyday. Maybe not for everyone, but for most anyone.


----------



## buckswope




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14889915
> 
> 
> That is not my argument. My argument is with custom installers trying to justfy their services in this thread. Their services do not include installing X-10 dimmers for $20 or even Insteon for $50. So once more, I am asking how they justify the purchases of $300 switches. What it is that their customers see who have to work for a living.



X-10 has in my experience proven to be predictably unreliable, both in use-to-use functionality and in longevity installed in a project. Insteon I have no experience with. My job must work, my customers demand it, and have my cell and home numbers when things fail. I sell the best because I want it to still be working when I'm retired. My customers want the same thing.


I know many here likely use X-10, and we may see a chorus of "it works fine for me, I've never had a problem". OK, fine. That certainly was not the case for me, and burn me twice.....


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *buckswope* /forum/post/14898874
> 
> 
> X-10 has in my experience proven to be predictably unreliable, both in use-to-use functionality and in longevity installed in a project. Insteon I have no experience with. My job must work, my customers demand it, and have my cell and home numbers when things fail. I sell the best because I want it to still be working when I'm retired. My customers want the same thing.



I am with you all the way and hence the reason I didn't try any wireless/powerline technology. This, despite my low voltage guy pushing hard for UPB, saying he has done 8 house with no issues.


My electrician also said that he had seen a number of the dimmers fail a few years after install. So you are right on the money there too.



> Quote:
> I know many here likely use X-10, and we may see a chorus of "it works fine for me, I've never had a problem". OK, fine. That certainly was not the case for me, and burn me twice.....



Indeed, it pays to ask twice. A friend installed Insteon a year ago, saying how wonderful it was from cost prespective. And that it worked great. I had lunch with him last month and he said one of the switches has stuck in the on mode and can't be turned off! He als had a hell of a time configuring them before buying the ISY front-end.


Our challenge is to try to bridge the gap between hardwired and wireless. The core of both system is the same: a smart dimmer system. It is the strangest thing that hardwired costs more than wireless when it comes to lighting where they share the same internal logic. In any other industry, it is the other way around. And Ethernet interface (logical and physical) costs 50 cents now where as an 802.11n costs $8 to $12 (all wholesale prices). How it has gotten inverted in lighting is beyond me.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14898485
> 
> 
> *Hardwired* (i.e. 100% reliable) lighting automation should be installed in a much broader market than it is today. It needs to move from luxury category to everyday. Maybe not for everyone, but for most anyone.



Why?? Is it a right for all to have access to automated lighting??


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14898436
> 
> 
> Good to see you back Q. But a post like this a few pages back, didn’t think you would:



Didn't go back to look at that quote but if I recall correctly I believe it was directed at someone else and written many months ago so not sure how it's relevant.



> Quote:
> How soon we go from having respect for people who have earned their money through hard work to folks dealing with dumpster pickings. I guess I should have you work on my system to move to the honorable side
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Sorry, no desire to work for you and not sure what you are saying. You continually make statements about my industry. A while back you talked about how we are living on caviar or some such nonsense. I simply pointed out that the profit margins in my industry look like dumpster pickings compared to the profit margins of the company made you wealthy. That's a factual statement, not a dig at you because you have attained some wealth.


The last time I looked at a P&L report from MS their gross profit margin was 85%. 85%! Nothing wrong with that. But don't tell me how my industry operates on "high margins". I've shown before that a comparison to other industries shows it does not.



> Quote:
> And it is not just me saying your industry thinks mass market should be served. Here is an article from CEpro: http://www.cepro.com/article/what_wi...on_mainstream/
> 
> 
> “*What Will Make Home Automation Mainstream?*
> *Price*, installation and competitive advantages needed to trickle home automation down.”
> 
> 
> When does hardwired lighting trickle down in your book? Never?



Lighting already has trickled down and it will continue to do so. The market will evolve, competition will increase, supply and demand will increase. Isn't this exactly what Centralite is? Competition against the more expensive brands? Control4 now offers $100 wireless dimmers. That's also a price breakthrough. Lutron has offered lower priced solutions than previously and I'm confident competition will continue to cause them to do so.



> Quote:
> Yeah, yeah, yeah. More car analogies. I can look up the cost for any car online in a few seconds and even buy it through the same channel. Please show me how I can do that for Crestron/Lutron.



That wasn't my argument, you always change the argument.


BTW, I contacted your former company to look into purchasing Great Plains software. They don't have a price list online! On me oh my! Why not?! And they won't just sell it to me and send me a disc. And I can't buy it through Best Buy! And, horror of horrors, they want me to work with a Microsoft great plains consultant! Oh, the horror of it all! Why don't they want small businesses to have access to high-end software. What about the DIY small business?



> Quote:
> No, like my suggestion to standardize keypads.



Sigh. So you want a Lutron keypad to work with a Vantage system and on and on. I'm not arguing against it. It's a great pie in the sky dream. So what is your point? YES, it would drive prices down. I can rattle off 101 things that I'd like to see happen in a fantasy world. I've been doing this for 20 years and we still don't have a simple control standard in place. Every device should have an Ethernet jack on it. But that would add $3, so it hasn't happened.


These types of things generally happen when demand drives it and companies reach the point that they realize that it will benefit them more than it will hurt them. It's 2008 and we are just seeing the first attempt at developing a DRM standard that will allow some level of device interoperability. And who knows how many years it will take before that comes to fruition.



> Quote:
> In doing so, we can see the benefits of much larger market being serviced with lower cost entrants coming in than likes of Crestron and Lutron. And with it, we all benefit from much wider array of products than getting stuck with their vertical solution.



Again, I agree. Write all these companies and explain it to them.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14899308
> 
> 
> Our challenge is to try to bridge the gap between hardwired and wireless. The core of both system is the same: a smart dimmer system. It is the strangest thing that hardwired costs more than wireless when it comes to lighting where they share the same internal logic. How it has gotten inverted in lighting is beyond me.



What are you talking about? Hardwired is more cost effective than wireless, this has been pointed out repeatedly. In the case of Lutron for example it is half the price, a hard wired dimmer is about $150 and a wireless dimmer is $285. The only reason the two end up being similar is that with hard wired, people often end up going the central route because they want to eliminate light switches in the rooms, and that then requires a lot of keypads, which case it's not even close to being apples to apples. Whereas with wireless people often put in all wireless dimmers and then use keypads in primary areas as opposed to everywhere.


The exception is that C4 has a $100 wireless dimmer out, which is cheaper compared to other manufacturers wired, but if C4 they bring out a wired dimmer, it will probably be cheaper than their wireless one.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14898436
> 
> 
> Or keep making this a personal back and forth.



Just wanted to comment on this. Pointing out that the company that you worked for that made you wealthy (and of course you made you wealthy, I'm not taking the credit away from you) has a profit margin that makes the profit margin in my industry look like slim pickings is in no way a personal attack. It does however reveal the double standard you employ when you repeatedly tell us what high margins we are operating on, when they are a fraction of what your company operated on.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/14899446
> 
> 
> Why?? Is it a right for all to have access to automated lighting??



Come again? Who said anything about a "right?" Did everyone have a "right" to have electricity in their houses? No, but we have it anyway.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14900111
> 
> 
> Just wanted to comment on this. Pointing out that the company that you worked for that made you wealthy (and of course you made you wealthy, I'm not taking the credit away from you) has a profit margin that makes the profit margin in my industry look like slim pickings is in no way a personal attack. It does however reveal the double standard you employ when you repeatedly tell us what high margins we are operating on, when they are a fraction of what your company operated on.



It was an improper comment Q. I shouldn't have to explain why but here it is anyway since it is not obvious.


You hide behind an alias without as much as telling me your real name. I tell you who I am and you go on making speculations about my bank balance. Maybe I lost two thirds of whatever I made at MSFT in this market and am living on borrowed time. Or maybe I am typing this from a $10M penthouse in Hawaii. You don't know which. So please don't keep trying to analyze who I am. It is at least the third time I have asked to not talk about me but you keep doing it. It is rude to say the least and totally OT. If something is wrong with your industry, it is wrong whether I say it or your local priest.


Your point about Microsoft is also out of line. Bill Gates has done more to help mankind than all the people at Crestron combined. And it is he, who started the company created its direction and vision, and the shareholders who made money. I had little to do with either other than being a small one of the latter. I joined the company 11 years ago and managed the audio/video technology only. You have a beef about that, then by all means, go to the appropriate subforum and start the thread and I will be right there to discuss it with you. Anything else is inappropriate and deep rat-hole.


People don't come here to read about your opinion of Microsoft or me. So for the n'th time, you would please stop this?


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14900266
> 
> 
> Come again? Who said anything about a "right?" Did everyone have a "right" to have electricity in their houses? No, but we have it anyway.



You have said several times that automated lighting need to be cheaper, to be available to more people. Why so??


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/14900329
> 
> 
> You have said several times that automated lighting need to be cheaper, to be available to more people. Why so??



I have already given the answer and not too far back







.


Why do you think it shouldn't be offered to the broader market?


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14900311
> 
> 
> It was an improper comment Q. I shouldn't have to explain why but here it is anyway since it is not obvious.
> 
> 
> You hide behind an alias without as much as telling me your real name.



Wait a minute. A few posts back you were saying we hang out here to get business. But now you're upset because I don't post under a name? Which is it? Besides, I thought we were talking about ideas here.



> Quote:
> I tell you who I am...



You posted a link to your bio in response to someone else. You chose to.



> Quote:
> and you go on making speculations about my bank balance. Maybe I lost two thirds of whatever I made at MSFT in this market and am living on borrowed time. Or maybe I am typing this from a $10M penthouse in Hawaii. You don't know which. So please don't keep trying to analyze who I am.



Boy, you sure are touchy. You'd think I called your baby ugly. I haven't made any speculations about your bank balance. I made a couple of statements that your wealth came from working for a company that makes the profit margins of my industry pitiful in comparison. I think it's quite a relevant point since you repeatedly talk about the profit margins in my industry.


Is wealth a dirty word? One would assume if you don't work and are building a house and own all the high-end equipment you have talked about that you have achieved some degree of wealth. Is that bad?! A insult?! Hardly.



> Quote:
> It is at least the third time I have asked to not talk about me but you keep doing it. It is rude to say the least and totally OT. If something is wrong with your industry, it is wrong whether I say it or your local priest.



I understand. You want to make your comments without anyone calling you on them. Not going to happen and you can ask me as many times as you like. If an attorney wants to come on here and tell me how my industry has outrageous hourly rates I'm going to call them on it. If you want to keep telling me how my industry has outrageous margins I'm going to call you on it.



> Quote:
> Your point about Microsoft is also out of line.



What point about MS? That they have an 85% profit margin?! It's a fact. It's not out of line. You don't like it because it exposes your arguments for what they are.



> Quote:
> Bill Gates has done more to help mankind than all the people at Crestron combined.



I have incredible respect for what Bill and Melinda Gate are doing for the world. I think what they are doing is beyond incredible. I was not aware however that this was a competition about whether the owner of MS who is worth 50 billion has done more to help the world than all the people at Crestron combined. Isn't it interesting how in one breath you are telling me I should not bring up who you worked for and in the next breath make that type of statement? Please stop saying that type of thing. It is rude and inappropriate







and also quite insulting, as I'm sure there are many people at Crestron who also devote themselves to philanthropy.



> Quote:
> People don’t come here to read about your opinion of Microsoft or me. So for the n’th time, you would please stop this?



No, I will continue to call you on your statements.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14900435
> 
> 
> Wait a minute. A few posts back you were saying we hang out here to get business. But now you're upset because I don't post under a name? Which is it?
> 
> 
> Boy, you sure are touchy. You'd think I called your baby ugly. I haven't made any speculations about your bank balance. I made a couple of statements that your wealth came from working for a company that makes the profit margins of my industry pitiful in comparison. I think it's quite a relevant point since you repeatedly talk about the profit margins in my industry.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand. You want to make your comments without anyone calling you on them. Not going to happen and you can ask me as many times as you like.
> 
> 
> No, I will continue to call you on your statements.



My response to you is simple Q: the AVS Forum rules of conduct: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...10&postcount=2 


"-if you disagree with something posted: *challenge the information; not the poster*


-are you an industry insider? identify yourself as such and do not use AVS to bash your competition


AVS is a technical forum: we expect posters to maintain a high techical and ethical standard in your posts"


The above is the reason I have a signature showing my affliation and even go beyond, giving my real name and history to anyone who asks. I expect others in the industry to do the same as suggested above. I will also refuse to talk about you and focus on the issues only. As for the last point, remember, 100X more people read these threads than post!


I am happy to discuss any relevant topics you like to bring. Otherwise, I will quietly enjoy watching you rant about me as long as you like







.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14900434
> 
> 
> I have already given the answer and not too far back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Why do you think it shouldn't be offered to the broader market?



Almost every argument you make is a strawman argument, as in person 1: "I don't believe this submarine is where we should invest our money" person 2: "You mean you don't want us to have a strong defense".


In this case "why don't you think it should be offered to a broader market"?

No one has said it should not be "offered" to a broader market. If and when supply and demand makes that possible it will happen. You refuse to acknowledge that is in fact exactly what Centralite and C4 are trying to do with their lighting solutions that are less than half the cost of solutions from Lutron and Crestron. If they are successful demand will increase even further and prices will continue to drop.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14900497
> 
> 
> In this case "why don't you think it should be offered to a broader market"?
> 
> No one has said it should not be "offered" to a broader market.



Since you want to speak on his behalf, why not explain what he meant by this question then:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/14899446
> 
> 
> Why?? Is it a right for all to have access to automated lighting??



Followed by:


> Quote:
> You have said several times that automated lighting need to be cheaper, to be available to more people. Why so??



Your read is that he is saying it should be offered to the broader market? If so, then why is he questioning me about it?







If not, then the two of you should argue while I get some sleep







.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14900434
> 
> 
> I have already given the answer and not too far back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Why do you think it shouldn't be offered to the broader market?



I never said it should not be offered to a broader market. Those who want automated lighting and can afford afford automated lighting get automated lighting. Like most luxury items, not everyone can afford automated lighting.


So why should a luxury item be more affordable?? Automation for the most part has failed when given to the mass market. Why does Best Buy not do automation, if they could make money at this would they not??


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14900494
> 
> 
> My response to you is simple Q: the AVS Forum rules of conduct: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...10&postcount=2
> 
> 
> "-if you disagree with something posted: *challenge the information; not the poster*
> 
> 
> -are you an industry insider? identify yourself as such and do not use AVS to bash your competition
> 
> 
> AVS is a technical forum: we expect posters to maintain a high techical and ethical standard in your posts"
> 
> 
> The above is the reason I have a signature showing my affliation and even go beyond, giving my real name and history to anyone who asks. I expect others in the industry to do the same as suggested above. I will also refuse to talk about you and focus on the issues only. As for the last point, remember, 100X more people read these threads than post!
> 
> 
> I am happy to discuss any relevant topics you like to bring. Otherwise, I will quietly enjoy watching you rant about me as long as you like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



I'm quite confident I'm operating within the spirit of the AVS code, but thank you for pointing it out to me. It's really beyond amazing that you think it inappropriate to point out that the industry you made your money in has a much higher profit margin than the one I'm on, in response to you claiming the margins in my industry are too high. I think it's safe to say that by any reasonable debate standard that falls within "challenging the information". Of course I _can_ understand why it upsets you so







.


----------



## Syphon Filter

Ok so to get back OT the main issues Amir has are as follows:


1. High cost of equipment.


2. Lack of standards.


3. High margins


4. The costs for design/installation/programming.


My responses:


1. It is what it is, if you can't/don't want to shell out then tough. You have to look elsewhere. Crying that something is too expensive won't help and frankly most of the companies concerned don't care, they make enough money to get by dealing with a very niche market. I agree, they could probably make more money by creating a range of products aimed at the masses buut it's their choice. The car analogy does stand up here, I want a Ferrari but I can't afford one, tough luck really.


2. Why is lack of standards such an issue? If you want a Lutron system you have to buy all Lutron kit. Again, it is what it is. Going back to Microsoft for a second, if MS went bust, who would support the millions (if not billions) of installations of Windows and Office and the plethora of other MS software out there? You complain that if Lutron or Crestron went bust you'd be knackered, well...same thing right. Going for the car analogy again, if the ECU on a Mercedes packs in, you can't replace it with an ECU from a BMW. Lack of standards? Get over it.


3. As for high margins, again let it go. It is what it is. If you can't find the products you want at a price you're happy to pay then tough. You have to go another way.


4. These system (while not being rocket science) are just not something that every man on the street can put together and get working. Most people can't even get their own email clients configured or figure out what's gone wrong if their broadband connection has failed let alone design, wire and commission a home automation/lighting solution. You're paying for expert advise and knowledge. Can I configure my own Sharepoint system? Sure, I can try but I'll probably make a pigs ear of it. Chances are, it's going to be better to get a proper Sharepoint consultant in to sort it all out for me.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14899308
> 
> 
> The core of both system is the same: a smart dimmer system. It is the strangest thing that hardwired costs more than wireless when it comes to lighting where they share the same internal logic. In any other industry, it is the other way around.



I guess you haven't checked out a Lutron price list lately. Wireless dimmers sell at a 67% premium to their wired counter parts.


Now I guess you could compare a Z-Wave dimmer to a Lutron wireless dimmer, but that would be apples and oranges.


I have a Lutron wireless system (after tearing the Insteon install out) and it is rock solid and I would recommend it to anyone who wants a bulletproof system.


----------



## Syphon Filter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *herdfan* /forum/post/14900991
> 
> 
> I guess you haven't checked out a Lutron price list lately. Wireless dimmers sell at a 67% premium to their wired counter parts.
> 
> 
> Now I guess you could compare a Z-Wave dimmer to a Lutron wireless dimmer, but that would be apples and oranges.
> 
> 
> I have a Lutron wireless system (after tearing the Insteon install out) and it is rock solid and I would recommend it to anyone who wants a bulletproof system.



Quite, Lutron is by far the most reliable of all the products that we use.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Syphon Filter* /forum/post/14900823
> 
> 
> Ok so to get back OT the main issues Amir has are as follows:



Thanks for trying to get us back on topic. I was starting to think the thread should be renamed to what is wrong with Amir







.


Let me state again that I have already shelled out for my lighting system. So the discussion here is not about me. I am in there with both feet. And certainly not crying about anything but feeling bad for others who want to be able to have a hardwired lighting and don't have a reasonable option.


As for analogies, if you really want to go there, why not talk about a closer one. There is little in a car which resembles a lighting system. So instead, let's look at the PCs which some of you are just as fond of for an analogy.


A high-performance PC used to cost $5000+ in 1985 which is a huge amount in today's dollars - clearly Ferrari priced by your analogy. Would you have advocated that PC pricing should have remained that way? After all, why would everyone need a PC? To bicker endlessly on an Internet forum? What a waste of technology!










Let's make the analogy more appropriate. Take the PC keyboard. In 1985, that keyboard probably cost $80 from IBM. Today, you can buy one for $2.95 and newegg shows a whopping 40 different versions for under $10! http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16823205001 


Now let's take that keyboard apart and contrast it with the Lutron keypad. Both have a Microprocessor to handle keystrokes and send it over a serial bus. The PC keyboard has 80+ keys (sorry, too lazy to count







). The Lutron one has what, 8 keys max? Both have LEDs and receive commands to turn them on. The PC keyboard is larger and heavier and probably more expensive to ship from factory to retail. Lutron plastics is probably a better grade although there are more expensive keyboards which have similar high quality plastics.


The PC keyboard is fully plug-and-play. Just hook it up and it works regardless of who built your PC. The Lutron? Only works with Lutron controller and, requires special programming. Why did the price of PC keyboards go down to $2.95 while the other retails for 100 times more? Standardization driving market expansion.


I can buy an entire laptop with said keyboard, LCD, hard disk, memory, etc for $370. This contrasts with the Lutron keypad costing what, $275? Still think standards are for wimps?










> Quote:
> 2. Why is lack of standards such an issue? If you want a Lutron system you have to buy all Lutron kit. Going back to Microsoft for a second, if MS went bust, who would support the millions (if not billions) of installations of Windows and Office and the plethora of other MS software out there? You complain that if Lutron or Crestron went bust you'd be knackered, well...same thing right.



You ask and then give the answer







. There was a time when computers were all vertically integrated. Then came the x86 PC and we could interchange parts and with it, drive down the cost of the components. And as a bonus, we also get a lot more choice. The latter is just as important as cost benefits. Let's say you are an AMX programmer/installer. Wouldn't like to offer the designer the choice to also pick Lutron keypads? Wouldn't that make your client happier?


As to your point about Microsoft, software doesn't stop working if they go away. If Lutron went out of business however and one of my keypads went bad, what do I do? Put a sign on it saying it is broken? I can replace the PC with a Mac by just moving a box and a few cables. How do you propose I do that with an entire building built around Lutron automation? Besides, the PC costs a fraction of the Lutron so even if I had to throw it away after 3-4 years, my cost is only $100 to $150/year. What is the cost of the Lutron system over the same period? $5000/year?


Seeing how the PC platform which Microsoft software runs on is standardized, others could write software for it to handle Microsoft data types, as Microsoft did for Lotus and WordPerfect. We get to preserve our hardware investment. I save little if I rip out the Lutron and replace it with Crestron.



> Quote:
> Going for the car analogy again, if the ECU on a Mercedes packs in, you can't replace it with an ECU from a BMW. Lack of standards? Get over it.



A car has a different life cycle than a lighting system. A lighting system needs to be forever or nearly so. After all, its dumb counterpart, the Romex wire and toggle switch have a long life and are fully standardized. You propose to replace that with a proprietary system. And for that pleasure, I get to pay Ferrari pricing too?


But let's go further with your example. A space shuttle can only be serviced by NASA. Would you buy a Mercedes that can only be serviced by the government in two places in US? You see, just because a worse situation exists elsewhere, doesn't excuse the matter at hand. If the norm is to have interop, as we have in lighting systems, then you can't bring another industry in there and say it is worse there as a means to justify us taking a step back.


> Quote:
> 3. As for high margins, again let it go. It is what it is. If you can't find the products you want at a price you're happy to pay then tough. You have to go another way.



I found a way to get around the 45% mark-up on equipment. It should not have required the hoops I jumped through to do this. I am happy to pay for your time and effort, but please don't pile up your margin on top of the manufacturer. My contractor charges me another 15% on top of any sub fees. Put all of this together and next thing you know, you are paying $10 for a screw! In other words, be part of the solution not the problem. Of course, if you are passing on equipment at your cost, bless your heart!










> Quote:
> 4. These system (while not being rocket science) are just not something that every man on the street can put together and get working. Most people can't even get their own email clients configured or figure out what's gone wrong if their broadband connection has failed let alone design, wire and commission a home automation/lighting solution



Have you looked at Centralite systems? If the system is complicated it is not the fault of the user but the company who made it. If Centralite can come up with a Windows application that anyone can use to program a scene or load, why can't the others? Sure, they can still have the programming option for pros but nothing stops them from having simple apps for people who want to get in and do the job.


Note that for me, the cost saving is actually secondary to the ability to change the system without having to make a call to someone to come and change the programming. I don't call you to come and set up my DVR







. Why should I keep calling a pro to change the way the lights work?


As to people understanding these things, you are way underestimating who hangs around AVS. In parallel subforum they are doing sophisticated room mode analysis and acoustics treatment that many pros installing home theaters don't understand. They modify their projectors with color filters to make the colorimetery to be SMPTE compliant. They make their own subwoofers and projection screen. And the list goes on. If you have problems with your broadband connection, I am sure they will help you with that too







.


I wrote a program to control a BBQ smoker with integrated Ethernet and open APIs to control it. People on those forums routinely help others set up esoteric things like port forwarding so that you can control your long cook from anywhere in the world! Don't underestimate the skill of the people who hang around these forums. This is an expert forum and people are smart, inquisitive and want to learn to do things themselves. I am pretty sure few of these people have trouble figuring out how to wire and program a lighting system. I know I did as did my electrician after a one hour discussion.


> Quote:
> You're paying for expert advise and knowledge.



And when I need such advice, you can expect me to pay and pay handsomely. That is not at issue for me and never has. Despite knowing a lot about audio/video, I am paying an expert to (remotely) help me design my theater. It may be instructive to see why they don't lock horns with others in the forum. First thing you note is that they don't feel threatened by anyone, even as they walk them through doing what they do for a living. They know that goodwill eventually brings them business, and animosity does not.


Bottom line is that this is not the forum to come and say these things are too complicated, too expensive, and take it or leave it. There are plenty of other places where such talk works. But here, it creates hate as you call it or tension as I would. Expressions like don't cry over it. Get over it. You are hypocritical are not helpful either in keeping forum decorum or show that industry insides know how to have a cordial discussion.


Anyway, I appreciate the healthy discussion and you all putting up with some feedback from folks down in the trenches







. Hope we can find a more constructive topic to discuss in the future.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14907021
> 
> 
> Let's say you are an AMX programmer/installer. Wouldn't like to offer the designer the choice to also pick Lutron keypads? Wouldn't that make your client happier?



Not a problem what so ever. You just need the Lutron processor to talk to the AMX processor.


What I would like to know is why you care? You spent a good amount of time on your last post, but if I am willing to spend $275 for a keypad, why do you care?


Why would someone pay $$$$ for a Rolex when a Tag is just as good (probably better at actually keeping time) for $$? Because they can and they want to and it is not any of my or anyone elses business.


If you disagree with Lutron's business model so much, don't buy it. For me it came down between Centralite and Lutron and Lutron won because the wife like the Lutron keypads better. So if I wanted to keep the wife happy







, I had to get the Lutron processor and I have not regretted that decision once.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Thanks for trying to get us back on topic. I was starting to think the thread should be renamed to “what is wrong with Amir”



Nah, its fun to read post from these CIs....remember is was a "Lets attack Penngray" for awhile










I just do not think these guys will ever get what we are truely talking about, if they are happy to keep it a luxury that is their decision. Its good to see the CIs collectively still attacking alternative opinion too, I guess business must be good for them


----------



## amirm

Before addressing your post, let me thank you for chiming in. Good to have a fresh voice with whom to discuss the issue







.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *herdfan* /forum/post/14908244
> 
> 
> Not a problem what so ever. You just need the Lutron processor to talk to the AMX processor.



Oh, so I get to pay for two expensive processors if I just want to mix keypads from two companies? It is like saying if there were no standards for PC keyboard, to buy an HP keyboard to use with IBM PC, all I would have had to do is buy an HP PC to go with it!


I hope everyone agrees that it is a better world if you could shop for the capabilities of the controller separately from the keypads. The former is all about capabilities, the latter about looks. Why anyone would be happy to be jammed into a box to purchase both from the same company is something I can't understand.


> Quote:
> What I would like to know is why you care? You spent a good amount of time on your last post, but if I am willing to spend $275 for a keypad, why do you care?



If you are in a position that buying the exact same keypad for $40 would have done you no good, then I don't care. I care for the people who rather spend that money on a better TV, nicer kitchen appliances, money for kids college, etc. than overpay for a keypad. I know that is the boat I am in. I would have loved to spend half the money I am spending here on more lenses for my camera instead of cables in the wall and black boxes in the closet.



> Quote:
> Why would someone pay $$$$ for a Rolex when a Tag is just as good (probably better at actually keeping time) for $$? Because they can and they want to and it is not any of my or anyone elses business.



Again, I shed no tear for the people who sign blank checks without looking under the covers. Or think buying a lighting system should be equiv. to buying Ferraris and Rolex watches. I recently walked into such a house my builder had done. Fancy keypads everywhere and such. And then I see the equipment rack. Everything stuffed on top of each other and cooking like you can't imagine. The front panels were so hot you couldn't touch them. I told my builder I will give it two years before half that gear dies. He just about fell over after telling me how much they had paid for that system.


For people like me, writing a check without looking under the wraps is not going to work. I want to know what I am getting for my hard earned dollars and it is certainly not a situation of writing a blank check for whatever the CI proposes. And on this forum, there are many, many others like me. It is not the question having the money but what to spend it on. If folks don't want to deal with us, this is not the place to say so!

















I have to say, nothing amazes me more than the argument that this is Rolex, Ferrari type of transaction, especially coming from a customer. Since when dimming a light and triggering some others to come on equates to Luxury goods? My realtor is warning me that lighting automation may actually bring the cost of the house down, not up! He worries that some people are afraid of technology and take one look at the keypad and walk out of the house. An expensive kitchen appliance doesn't do that. Ditto for high-end countertops, etc. Those are luxury additions to a home. A lighting system is not, no matter how much the people in the business of selling them want to think they are selling Ferraris.


> Quote:
> If you disagree with Lutron's business model so much, don't buy it. For me it came down between Centralite and Lutron and Lutron won because the wife like the Lutron keypads better. So if I wanted to keep the wife happy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , I had to get the Lutron processor and I have not regretted that decision once.



Ah, I also like the Lutron keypads better. And if we had standards here you and I could have been able to mix and match those components. This is how I got on the bandwagon of standards to start! So you are helping my argument more than countering it














.


BTW, do you own a Ferrari and wear Rolex watches? For the record, I wear a Casio watch







. It has worldwide atomic clock. It charges itself as I walk around. So it will work and keep accurate time long after I die







. So you know where I am coming from, it cost me $100. For me, that is all I look into a watch to do. Ditto for a lighting keypad or system.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14910161
> 
> 
> Oh, so I get to pay for two expensive processors if I just want to mix keypads from two companies? It is like saying if there were no standards for PC keyboard, to buy an HP keyboard to use with IBM PC, all I would have had to do is buy an HP PC to go with it!



But do you remember a time when IBM controlled all the PC standards? I do. If a company wanted to make PC's, then they had to risk going it alone or conform to the standard IBM standard.


Now every thing is USB, but it has taken a long time to get there and there are PC's in most american homes. We may again get there with control systems when they are so ubiquitous that evey home has one. We are not there yet and not really even close.


As for the proprietary processor, given the cost of these systems and the cost of the houses they are going in, is a couple thousand $ for a processor going to be that relevant in the big picture?


And no I don't own a Ferrari.


----------



## CollinViegas




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *herdfan* /forum/post/14911339
> 
> 
> As for the proprietary processor, given the cost of these systems and the cost of the houses they are going in, is a couple thousand $ for a processor going to be that relevant in the big picture?



Just Chiming in after sifting through this thread... To me personally YES the few thousand is VERY relevant in the big picture. And personally from a consumer point of view I think home automation has no choice but to follow in the mass market HT footsteps.


Years ago Home Theater was unattainable to all but the very wealthy, now a person like me {27 years old with a modest $300K 2400 sq/ft single family home} can put in a theater that can compete and surpass anything the local cineplex has to offer for under 100K doing the work themselves. Hearing 150K for automation alone would blow me away... 25-30K would maybe be an option, but from the view of this thread that is a waste because systems in that price range are to limited.


And also I dont like having to have someone come over everytime I buy a new piece of equipment {often}. I wouldn't mind inital setup but being able to change things as my system evolves is something I would like to do. Most automation companies wont provide the software to the end user and this is the main reason it keeps me away. Figure it this way from an average consumer.


If I want to integrate an Xbox360 into my theater which costs $199.00 I have to purchase a middle atlantic rack shelf for $100 and then hire someone to come over and program a remote to control it. By the time its done I pay for the Xbox twice or more.


My opinion is home automation needs to become reliable and fairly easy to program before it can really take off, but to me it looks like it will remain a niche product until some company comes out a surprises everyone. C4 tried to but the didnt really revolutionize anything and like amir said, I would hate to buy a system and see them go out of business.


----------



## Dahwoo

OK that was a lot of reading... and I didnt even go back all the way.


This thread was really a bad Idea it leaves doors open for people to come in and add their 2cents about every particular, its almost like asking whats your favorite kool-aid.


Amir you make 50/50 statements(50% reasonable/50% laughable) then get mad at Q or anyone else for responding to them.


you are talking about a very broad spectrum of things/issues/scenarios. I think your points would be better served if you came with some hard information... for example a proposal from a company that is marking items up at these egregious prices. I know that our company gives proposals out that have:


Item name, brief description, and price.

it includes the labor

it includes a general quote for programming

and so forth


this way people can disect each section of what you are talking about independently and from a factual form, because in one instance or another you have complained about every aspect of the home automation industry.


Generally speaking this entire world is F*cked in that same manner... you can bring anything you think to the table and we could all disect it in the same manner and tell you how wrong it is... what I really dont hear is your realistic solution to any of these atrocities that you mention.


and Q that was pretty funny "you act as though I said your baby was ugly" LOL


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *herdfan* /forum/post/14911339
> 
> 
> But do you remember a time when IBM controlled all the PC standards? I do. If a company wanted to make PC's, then they had to risk going it alone or conform to the standard IBM standard.



No, I don't recall such a time and I live through it all (literally -- I lived and went to school next to Boca plant in Florida when the machine was designed).


IBM PC was an open architecture from day one. I bought mine in 1982, one year after original PC came out. I immediately bought a number of third-part products to add to it from Epson printers to memory cards and floppy drive. I had the complete copy of the BIOS and specs for the ISA bus which is what others used to build products for it. From what I recall, that was also the year Compaq cloned the IBM PC and I don't recall any letigation or licensing between them and IBM. You don't get more open than this when someone can replace all the components of the system and still be binary compatible with it.


It is true that people looked to IBM to advance the architecture for the next few years. But that was due IBM's large market share than anything else. Once their share shrank, they lost that power also.



> Quote:
> Now every thing is USB, but it has taken a long time to get there and there are PC's in most american homes. We may again get there with control systems when they are so ubiquitous that evey home has one. We are not there yet and not really even close.



Sorry but I don't follow. PC standards did not come about after the fact, and certainly not when every home had one. They were in the very first unit to come out of IBM. It was that trait, that led to much innovation and cost reduction. Indeed, the market for PCs at the time was smaller than the market for automation systems.



> Quote:
> As for the proprietary processor, given the cost of these systems and the cost of the houses they are going in, is a couple thousand $ for a processor going to be that relevant in the big picture?



The processor is not as much of an issue but the central load controller. Using Q's number of $150 per load, a 50 load controller would cost $7,500. That is a lot of money before one gets into the rest of the cost. I believe the cost per load can come down to $20 and even lower. Once there, a $2000 process would also start to look expensive and I can start to rant about that too







. Fortunatley, there are alternatives to the controller (such as PC) so that can be mitigated much easier than the keypad and load controller.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14912060
> 
> 
> Amir you make 50/50 statements(50% reasonable/50% laughable) then get mad at Q or anyone else for responding to them.



Remember, my rule #2 for hanging around here was to have fun! So you are always going to see me make you laugh














. Now if I could get everyone else to remember that as they defend their industry


> Quote:
> you are talking about a very broad spectrum of things/issues/scenarios. I think your points would be better served if you came with some hard information... for example a proposal from a company that is marking items up at these egregious prices.



Really? I thought I stayed super focused on hardwire lighting and only that scenario. I then went on and provided hard cost factor for the controller and keypads. I contrast them with lower end wireless products. The cost for other products is not available to me and that is a big issue in itself.


> Quote:
> I know that our company gives proposals out that have:
> 
> 
> Item name, brief description, and price.
> 
> it includes the labor
> 
> it includes a general quote for programming
> 
> and so forth



Well, I asked people to tell me how much a 24-load system would cost. I outlined every detail of that, minus labor. I don't think it makes sense to get into labor because that is highly variable and situation dependent (some want to do their own labor but can't build their own controller). I did include programming since Centralite gives away that tool for free. And I gave a free pass to Lutron folks on that







. Here is the original post:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14895214
> 
> 
> 1. A traditional system costs $2 to control and interface to each load.
> 
> 
> 2. A Centralite system package is available which costs $2000 for a 24-load controller plus 5 4-button keypads, 5 3-button keypads, 5 2- button keypads and 1 1-button keypad. Assuming those 16 keypads do the job, the cost per controlled load including its interface is $2000/24 = $83.
> 
> 
> 3. A Lutron system package similar to #2 costs what?



No one wanted to answer the above question. Why was it so hard to give those numbers?



> Quote:
> this way people can disect each section of what you are talking about independently and from a factual form, because in one instance or another you have complained about every aspect of the home automation industry.



I have not complained about every aspect. I did not question cost of labor or programming (indeed I said these costs are high and deservedly so to some extent). I did not get into home theater automation. I did not get into security. I stayed focused like a razor on cost of automated hardwired lighting. There, the cost of the load controller and keypads is paramount as is access to a channel other than what exists today where one can't even find the cost of these components.


> Quote:
> what I really dont hear is your realistic solution to any of these atrocities that you mention.



Oh, first no one asked. Instead I keep getting told to not cry and put up with the current situation







. But I have given constructive advice in this thread and elsewhere. Here they are again:


1. Push your suppliers to standardize. Your business will grow because you can please your customers better by giving the wider range of keypads and accessories. And we all benefit from more choices, and lower cost over time. And the market grows the more companies get to participate and market solutions.


2. Don't mark up equipment automatically. Charge for what you do which is programming and system installation/integration. Nothing is worse than double and triple mark-up. You take a bad situation (high margins from OEM) and make it worse.


3. Convince your suppliers to let you sell the equipment openly below MSRP/MAP. You can make a ton of money on this forum if you charged 20% margin instead of 45% or whatever is norm. I shouldn't have to deal with shady ebay vendors to do this.


4. Set up a consulting service where you get requirements from users here, and design a system at high level including all the components. That way, folks can get someone to do the wiring for them or do it themselves. Either way, they are not paying someone to pay someone else to do the wiring and have their general contractor mark it up even more as was the case with the first estimate I got for automating my house. Since none of you live where I live, you could make a lot of money this way without hurting your primary business. This is how the acoustics and theater designers operate on AVS and elsewhere. They can do turnkey design but we get to have some of their services separately.


5. As an industry, help make a better case for why hardwired lighting is mission critical and not a nice to have like a sports car. We talked about one such answer: safety.


BTW, what is your profession? Are you involved in the industry? If so, I hope all of you start signing your posts that way. I can't tell if I am talking to someone in the business, a customer, or someone wanting to just have fun with me







. This is not the way to have a conversation..


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14910161
> 
> 
> I hope everyone agrees that it is a better world if you could shop for the capabilities of the controller separately from the keypads. The former is all about capabilities, the latter about looks. Why anyone would be happy to be jammed into a box to purchase both from the same company is something I can't understand.



This is one of the things I'm talking about. In some cases I agree and some I disagree. For the most part, in my home, I prefer to deal with one manufacturer depending on the product.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14910161
> 
> 
> If you are in a position that buying the exact same keypad for $40 would have done you no good, then I don't care. I care for the people who rather spend that money on a better TV, nicer kitchen appliances, money for kids college, etc. than overpay for a keypad. I know that is the boat I am in. I would have loved to spend half the money I am spending here on more lenses for my camera instead of cables in the wall and black boxes in the closet.



If a person is spending kids college money, their priorities are really screwed up. I get the gist of what you're saying though, you want to spend your money on other things you want as well.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14910161
> 
> 
> Again, I shed no tear for the people who sign blank checks without looking under the covers. Or think buying a lighting system should be equiv. to buying Ferraris and Rolex watches. I recently walked into such a house my builder had done. Fancy keypads everywhere and such. And then I see the equipment rack. Everything stuffed on top of each other and cooking like you can't imagine. The front panels were so hot you couldn't touch them. I told my builder I will give it two years before half that gear dies. He just about fell over after telling me how much they had paid for that system.



It is everyones responsibility to make sure that the job is done correctly. If you look at the rack and see that everything is stacked on top of each other and cant comprehend that theres something wrong thats sad. If your contractor looks and doesn't realize it (especially after building so many homes) Thats even sadder. My point is that more than one person can realize that there is something wrong its the CI's responsibility to fix the problems. If an electrician comes to my house installs a light switch and leaves **** all over the floor I have 2 choices .. clean up behind him or tell him to clean up.


It should be your main priority to make sure you are getting what you want. simply asking questions will more than likely get your problems solved and questions answered.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14910161
> 
> 
> For people like me, writing a check without looking under the wraps is not going to work. I want to know what I am getting for my hard earned dollars and it is certainly not a situation of writing a blank check for whatever the CI proposes. And on this forum, there are many, many others like me. It is not the question having the money but what to spend it on. If folks don't want to deal with us, this is not the place to say so!



Exactly







ask questions stay on top of your project or your contractor.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14910161
> 
> 
> I have to say, nothing amazes me more than the argument that this is Rolex, Ferrari type of transaction, especially coming from a customer. Since when dimming a light and triggering some others to come on equates to Luxury goods? My realtor is warning me that lighting automation may actually bring the cost of the house down, not up! He worries that some people are afraid of technology and take one look at the keypad and walk out of the house. An expensive kitchen appliance doesn't do that. Ditto for high-end countertops, etc. Those are luxury additions to a home. A lighting system is not, no matter how much the people in the business of selling them want to think they are selling Ferraris.



you're kidding me right? you're above statement suggests that lighting systems are pretty much the same thing as regular switches in so many words. And your expensive kitchen appliance is one product serving one purpose. you're not asking your refrigerator to turn on your microwave are you?


so if you want to turn on one light buy a switch.. you want to turn on multiple lights buy a system.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14910161
> 
> 
> Ah, I also like the Lutron keypads better. And if we had standards here you and I could have been able to mix and match those components. This is how I got on the bandwagon of standards to start! So you are helping my argument more than countering it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



standards are not a bad thing but they are not the end all solution either. standards that are introduced steer people in a narrower direction but not always the exact same direction.


companies like crestron reinvest a lot of their profit back into their company especially for research and product development while some other companies do not. If you buy a product from a reputable company chances are that they will work in some form or fashion with another if you are talking strictly about lighting products it doesnt even make any sense to me why would want to buy different products. even if there were standards the initial homes that would have the growing pains of having to be "the first" to try them out would be pissed.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14912439
> 
> 
> Remember, my rule #2 for hanging around here was to have fun! So you are always going to see me make you laugh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Now if I could get everyone else to remember that as they defend their industry



well in some instances you have made a good point about something than followed it up with a back handed slap to the industry... thus making people feel the need to defend.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14912439
> 
> 
> Well, I asked people to tell me how much a 24-load system would cost. I outlined every detail of that, minus labor. I don't think it makes sense to get into labor because that is highly variable and situation dependent (some want to do their own labor but can't build their own controller). I did include programming since Centralite gives away that tool for free. And I gave a free pass to Lutron folks on that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Here is the original post:
> 
> 
> No one wanted to answer the above question. Why was it so hard to give those numbers?



I am not equipped to give you the quote it would take me some time to get you that information.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14912439
> 
> 
> Oh, first no one asked. Instead I keep getting told to not cry and put up with the current situation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . But I have given constructive advice in this thread and elsewhere. Here they are again:
> 
> 
> 1. Push your suppliers to standardize. Your business will grow because you can please your customers better by giving the wider range of keypads and accessories. And we all benefit from more choices, and lower cost over time. And the market grows the more companies get to participate and market solutions.



guess what the people that are selling the cheaper items are not really listening to the vendors.. they say push our product or not in most cases.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14912439
> 
> 
> 2. Don't mark up equipment automatically. Charge for what you do which is programming and system installation/integration. Nothing is worse than double and triple mark-up. You take a bad situation (high margins from OEM) and make it worse.



so you want us to shell out our money to carry and store the product, pay for shipping, take care of DOA and tech support issues for nothing?

I think I prefer the good old method of if I supply it you pay what I ask, if you can get it yourself more power to you you just saved both of us time and money. because you're not being reasonable on this one at all



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14912439
> 
> 
> 3. Convince your suppliers to let you sell the equipment openly below MSRP/MAP. You can make a ton of money on this forum if you charged 20% margin instead of 45% or whatever is norm. I shouldn't have to deal with shady ebay vendors to do this.



honestly, if you play your cards right you can get discounts in a lot of ways



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14912439
> 
> 
> 4. Set up a consulting service where you get requirements from users here, and design a system at high level including all the components. That way, folks can get someone to do the wiring for them or do it themselves. Either way, they are not paying someone to pay someone else to do the wiring and have their general contractor mark it up even more as was the case with the first estimate I got for automating my house. Since none of you live where I live, you could make a lot of money this way without hurting your primary business. This is how the acoustics and theater designers operate on AVS and elsewhere. They can do turnkey design but we get to have some of their services separately.



the problem is everyone has different expectations so that just isnt really a great option although it is an option. now contractors being shady is something else. but I know that if you want me to provide the service and deal with making sure it gets done then I have to charge for it? its another item that you've asked me to take care of... whether or not someone else is doing the work I have to monitor and take responsibility for it.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14912439
> 
> 
> 5. As an industry, help make a better case for why hardwired lighting is mission critical and not a nice to have like a sports car. We talked about one such answer: safety.



How about reliability? when a wireless product loses communication, gets locked up, fails or what have you what do you propose. wired communication is the most reliable



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14912439
> 
> 
> BTW, what is your profession? Are you involved in the industry? If so, I hope all of you start signing your posts that way. I can't tell if I am talking to someone in the business, a customer, or someone wanting to just have fun with me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . This is not the way to have a conversation..



I have also answered this question for you in a previous post. I am in the industry and I do crestron programming for the most part I also help out wherever I can .. so if the design team has a question I try to answer if a project manager needs help I help out there as well and last but not least I may have to get techy at times to help teach some of the other guys how to install some of this stuff.


Last but not least as I said before some standards are nice others are not. the more complex things are the less room there is for standardization. Building homes require certain standards but for the most part no 2 are alike. and a spec home will always cost less than a custom one. in some cases it sounds as though you want custom products with spec design and costs.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14912107
> 
> 
> I believe the cost per load can come down to $20 and even lower.



You can't even get a decent x10 switch for $20. Insteon wants $45 or so. A good mass-market non-automated electronic dimmer can cost $20.


Not going to happen.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CollinViegas* /forum/post/14912044
> 
> 
> Hearing 150K for automation alone would blow me away... 25-30K would maybe be an option,
> 
> 
> And also I dont like having to have someone come over everytime I buy a new piece of equipment {often}. I wouldn't mind inital setup but being able to change things as my system evolves is something I would like to do. Most automation companies wont provide the software



An automation project in the 150K range would be for a large house with almost everything you can control, being controlled with lots of TP's.


I have an Adagio and a couple of TP's, a few STATS and I am in for less than $12K controlling DA, HVAC, Lighting and Security.


As for the software issue, where there is a will, there is a way. There are several members here that have programmed their own systems.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14912692
> 
> 
> well in some instances you have made a good point about something than followed it up with a back handed slap to the industry... thus making people feel the need to defend.



Even if guilty of slapping the industry, it is a very different situation than the industry people slapping their potential customers on a frequent basis in this forum. The treatment I have seen is quite harsh and from multiple people banging on one person. So you know, that drives me to write these posts more than anything else! This is a user's forum. It was built for them, and not industry people. We are their guests and that is about it. Feel free to contact Dave Bott if you have any question.


And to be absolute clear, you can bash me to end and it never, ever makes me upset or unhappy. I will never take my marbles and go home either because I don't like what someone says. Hopefully you have seen this in my posts. I wish over time the CIs also learn the merits of taking the interactions here the same way. It would make for a more professional setting and only serve to improve the perception of the industry and the people within it.


> Quote:
> so you want us to shell out our money to carry and store the product, pay for shipping, take care of DOA and tech support issues for nothing?



No, I said you can charge for your services. But be transparent about it. The 45% mark-up on my controller came out to over $3000. The mark up on an IR repeater is probably $30. Same effort is involved in ordering both. I will pay for support separately and don't want to pay more for an item just because it costs more money. Maybe the more expensive item requires less support. And for DOA, assume the company accepts that under warranty. If they do not, then that is more of an issue with them, not me.


Now, if you charged me nothing to program and design the system, then I could understand. My Lutron shades guy is doing just that and simply living from the equipment margin (and in these tough times, even gave me discount in that department). He provided me both costs and liked his honesty so much I gave him the business. The keyword here is transparency perhaps more than even cost efficiency.


> Quote:
> I think I prefer the good old method of if I supply it you pay what I ask, if you can get it yourself more power to you you just saved both of us time and money. because you're not being reasonable on this one at all



Sad to say, the feeling is mutual. But we have beat this horse to death so I won't go there again.


> Quote:
> How about reliability? when a wireless product loses communication, gets locked up, fails or what have you what do you propose. wired communication is the most reliable



The contrast is to a $2 switch which is more reliable than any other option. Indeed, I advocate that we move to hardwired lighting for all new construction. If the cost structure gets fixed, then there is no need to have wireless. My low voltage guy bid UPB at $70 load. I am paying 50% more for wired access. This is flat broken especially since the hardwired cost is dealer net and the $70 had some margin in there for him! It becomes even worse when one considers $150 for Lutron.


> Quote:
> I have also answered this question for you in a previous post. I am in the industry and I do crestron programming for the most part I also help out wherever I can ..



Sorry, can't memorize everyone's alias. That is why the rules suggest that you have that in your signature so that everyone knows where you are coming from. As a minimum, I suggest signing your affiliation when that matters with respect to point of view you are putting forth. I know in other subforums here that are more heavily moderated you can lose your AVS membership for not doing so.


> Quote:
> Last but not least as I said before some standards are nice others are not. the more complex things are the less room there is for standardization.



Agree strongly with the first. Disagree completely with the second. Do you think the PC and its ecosystem is not complex? Yet is full of standards. Without it, it would be an unbelievable tangle and a fraction of the size it is today. The Internet is complex and it is entirely based on standards.


I am not advocating that everything to be standardized. I am not saying I should be able to swap out the CPU in Crestron controller for a different one. I am not saying I should be able to add memory to it or use my own development environment. All I asked for was the wire and protocol going to a keypad be standardized. That is all. So far, I haven't seen one reason put forth as to why that is bad for anyone other than the company making the vertically oriented solution.


> Quote:
> Building homes require certain standards but for the most part no 2 are alike. and a spec home will always cost less than a custom one. in some cases it sounds as though you want custom products with spec design and costs.



How does any of this force the interconnect to be different between the controller and keypad?


----------



## Dahwoo

Compare your lighting product to ... say your Xbox 360. I would love it if my XBOX360 could play PS3 games or Blu-Ray ... how come they dont make it universal? well some people and products operate at a loss so they can make profit in the supported product(software) as you know. And I am sure you are aware that microsoft was losing $100 for every XBOX sold and making a ton of money on every game they sold. is it possible that lutron is operating in this same fashion? yes do any of us truly know? you should really try to dig a little deeper by going to the resource and not the dealers for the information($) you are looking for.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *herdfan* /forum/post/14913007
> 
> 
> You can't even get a decent x10 switch for $20. Insteon wants $45 or so. A good mass-market non-automated electronic dimmer can cost $20.
> 
> 
> Not going to happen.



I didn't ask for stand-alone components sold and installed seperately as you listed above. I am talking about the dimmer controller *circuit* in a 20-40-80 load system, minus the CPU controller. What is inside of the $45 Insteon is much more than what you need since we are not talking about wireless communication but simply the ability to control the light inside a box. I can already buy 4-channel DMX style dimmer modules for less than $30/port and again, this is finished in a box and such....


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14913065
> 
> 
> Compare your lighting product to ... say your Xbox 360. I would love it if my XBOX360 could play PS3 games or Blu-Ray ... how come they dont make it universal? well some people and products operate at a loss so they can make profit in the supported product(software) as you know.



You ask a question and answer it yourself







. Xbox and PS are not sold with positive margins. So if they let you buy games from the other guy, he would make all the profits and they would hold on to all the loss. If Crestron is selling their controllers at a loss, then please forgive me for anything I have said







.


As for blu-ray, that is an interoperable standard. I can wake up tomorrow and build a player. I can't seem to be able to replace the Crestron controller as easily







. As to why Sony does it and Microsoft doesn't that is a long story. But for now, remember what I said above. If you don't make money on a box, what motivation do you have allowing people to just buy them as Blu-ray players? Sony makes patent royalties that make up for that. Microsoft doesn't.



> Quote:
> And I am sure you are aware that microsoft was losing $100 for every XBOX sold and making a ton of money on every game they sold. is it possible that lutron is operating in this same fashion?



No it is not possible because I know both what goes into an Xbox 360 and Lutron keypad







. The Lutron keypad retails for the same dollars an Xbox 360 for heaven's sake. Surely you don't need my engineering knowledge to know which one costs more to manufacture (or which one is more useful!). I won't comment on the margins for Microsoft but I bet you the margin is better than 50% on Lutron and Crestron gear.


> Quote:
> you should really try to dig a little deeper by going to the resource and not the dealers for the information($) you are looking for.



I have dug in deeper than you can possibly imagine. There is little in these products that is a mystery to me, from design to architecture and manufacturing cost. I have been fortunate enough to have managed engineering of specialized gear all the way down to having my own company selling consumer electronics gear and automation gear (for a different industry). But I am all ears if you think you can show that Crestron/Lutron lose money on their hardware.


As for dealers, I am not complaining about them but rather, their defense of current practices.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14913056
> 
> 
> Even if guilty of slapping the industry, it is a very different situation than the industry people slapping their potential customers on a frequent basis in this forum. The treatment I have seen is quite harsh and from multiple people banging on one person. So you know, that drives me to write these posts more than anything else! This is a user's forum. It was built for them, and not industry people. We are their guests and that is about it. Feel free to contact Dave Bott if you have any question.
> 
> 
> And to be absolute clear, you can bash me to end and it never, ever makes me upset or unhappy. I will never take my marbles and go home either because I don't like what someone says. Hopefully you have seen this in my posts. I wish over time the CIs also learn the merits of taking the interactions here the same way. It would make for a more professional setting and only serve to improve the perception of the industry and the people within it.



Well your comments are valid. And double edged you can go back into this posts and there were a few people who bashed CI's so it goes both ways as with everything. Also this is a forum.. not a forum strictly for consumers or CI's its for people to discuss things and share relative information. WE ARE ALL GUESTS TO THIS FORUM.. you being a consumer do not have a priority higher than I as a CI. I am not offering my services to you or other consumers. so I am on here same as you learning, offering what information I do have, and passing time. I am here to help as well.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14913056
> 
> 
> No, I said you can charge for your services. But be transparent about it. The 45% mark-up on my controller came out to over $3000. The mark up on an IR repeater is probably $30. Same effort is involved in ordering both. I will pay for support separately and don't want to pay more for an item just because it costs more money. Maybe the more expensive item requires less support. And for DOA, assume the company accepts that under warranty. If they do not, then that is more of an issue with them, not me.
> 
> 
> Now, if you charged me nothing to program and design the system, then I could understand. My Lutron shades guy is doing just that and simply living from the equipment margin (and in these tough times, even gave me discount in that department). He provided me both costs and liked his honesty so much I gave him the business. The keyword here is transparency perhaps more than even cost efficiency.



Some manufacturers will actually cut you off if you sell below MSRP or let out dealer cost info. so why would I risk that for one customer when I have 10 others that are willing to pay? and why cant you be exactly what you are... a consumer and do your due diligence and research the product and price. instead of bashing the CI for charging what they want to run their business. you are more than welcome to invent product or re-engineer any of the product out there and figure out a way to sell it for almost nothing.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14913056
> 
> 
> The contrast is to a $2 switch which is more reliable than any other option. Indeed, I advocate that we move to hardwired lighting for all new construction. If the cost structure gets fixed, then there is no need to have wireless. My low voltage guy bid UPB at $70 load. I am paying 50% more for wired access. This is flat broken especially since the hardwired cost is dealer net and the $70 had some margin in there for him! It becomes even worse when one considers $150 for Lutron.



I feel like I countered this question with the XBOX question



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14913056
> 
> 
> Sorry, can't memorize everyone's alias. That is why the rules suggest that you have that in your signature so that everyone knows where you are coming from. As a minimum, I suggest signing your affiliation when that matters with respect to point of view you are putting forth. I know in other subforums here that are more heavily moderated you can lose your AVS membership for not doing so.



AVS can actually control what people put in their signature so until they do that I believe I am within my rules but then it doesn't matter because I am not here trying to drum up business for my company



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14913056
> 
> 
> Agree strongly with the first. Disagree completely with the second. Do you think the PC and its ecosystem is not complex? Yet is full of standards. Without it, it would be an unbelievable tangle and a fraction of the size it is today. The Internet is complex and it is entirely based on standards.



The internet also has a lot more people focusing on that standardization as you can see the more standardized that became the cheaper it has become as well. someone has already posted that the more this becomes a demand the sooner it will become cheaper and more standardized. You as a consumer, and me as CI who would like to own the product, are both upset that its probably not going to happen soon enough for us to save some money




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14913056
> 
> 
> I am not advocating that everything to be standardized. I am not saying I should be able to swap out the CPU in Crestron controller for a different one. I am not saying I should be able to add memory to it or use my own development environment. All I asked for was the wire and protocol going to a keypad be standardized. That is all. So far, I haven't seen one reason put forth as to why that is bad for anyone other than the company making the vertically oriented solution.



again look at my XBOX posts.. but in any event Crestron has spent a lot of money (their own money)getting the product right and working with their own system... crestron cant pay for standardization alone everyone has to pay. Including you the consumer.









[/quote]


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14913273
> 
> 
> No it is not possible because I know both what goes into an Xbox 360 and Lutron keypad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . The Lutron keypad retails for the same dollars an Xbox 360 for heaven's sake. Surely you don't need my engineering knowledge to know which one costs more to manufacture (or which one is more useful!). I won't comment on the margins for Microsoft but I bet you the margin is better than 50% on Lutron and Crestron gear.
> 
> 
> I have dug in deeper than you can possibly imagine. There is little in these products that is a mystery to me, from design to architecture and manufacturing cost. I have been fortunate enough to have managed engineering of specialized gear all the way down to having my own company selling consumer electronics gear and automation gear (for a different industry). But I am all ears if you think you can show that Crestron/Lutron lose money on their hardware.



my point is that you are talking about one product which is not a neccessity (lighting or control system) to one that is (computer). microsoft's campus does not need a a lighting system but I wonder how they would operate with computers and the web.


Microsoft hasn't sold anything where they didnt intend on making money on it in some form or fashion (build the xbox to make a killing on the games)


Computers used to cost an arm and a leg they now are fairly cheap because they are high in demand. this has been stated before but you dont seem to have a legitimate response as to why you cant wait for it to happen in the automation world. Automation companies are no where near the level of microsoft. Bill gates and Jim Clark built something that a lot of people and companies have to have in order to operate on a day to day basis. lighting and av automation just dont fall into that category.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14913492
> 
> 
> my point is that you are talking about one product which is not a neccessity (lighting or control system) to one that is (computer).



Actually I pleaded with folks here many times to not pull in analogies and focus on lighting only. But I lost that battle after the tenth time someone wanted to talk about cars and PCs. So we started to rat hole there as expected.


> Quote:
> Computers used to cost an arm and a leg they now are fairly cheap because they are high in demand. this has been stated before but you dont seem to have a legitimate response as to why you cant wait for it to happen in the automation world. Automation companies are no where near the level of microsoft.



The PC in 1981 was designed with open standards. Before Microsoft was anyone that occured. Microsoft's role was to take advantage of the fact that such an open system would eventually lead to software playing a stronger role than hardware. At the time, folks thought he was crazy. Not today...


As for me being patient, again, I have jumped in. And put in a system. I am still dreading the day something goes wrong. But I know with the simple architecture of Centralite, where every switch on the keypad is just that: a switch, if I have to, I can make my own system. But I do wish they all adopted a one-line serial protocol for keypads. Wishing should be OK. No?











> Quote:
> Bill gates and Jim Clark built something that a lot of people and companies have to have in order to operate on a day to day basis. lighting and av automation just dont fall into that category.



I will just say one thing: there are far more light switches in our house than PCs







. And if I am not mistaken, automated lighting is as old as the PC.


BTW, appreciate the tone of your responses. Clearly a step above the rest....


----------



## Dahwoo

automated lighting could be as old as Jesus for the sake of the conversation, my point was that automating lighting has not become a necessity like a PC has.


You may have made the request for people not use analagies but it is impossible. You have to use analagies to respectfully analyze a situation. the fact that you dont like the comparisons doesnt make them any less right.


when someone tells you its to make money it hasn't satisfied you, I said what I know from our company to be true, that not every customer is like you and has a good understanding of the product. Then you say its our place to educate people or we as a industry should educate people more. To me its just like kids in school, some want to learn it and some dont no matter how much you make'em go if they dont want to learn they wont. same as consumers if you really want to learn more there are so many resources (including this site) that can get people the info they need. Those that dont want to learn pay people that have knowledge. You have access to DIY product but are upset that product that is not geared towards someone like yourself is not sold to any and everyone.


My job is to educate you on what you bought. If you come to me personally with something I will tell you what I believe to be the pros and cons of it... A salesman may not but for the most part Tech's will generally tell you this information.


Every company is different and some are a lot better than others we get lumped into one group sadly but hey for those of us doing it right.. it keeps us alive and those that aren't their out of business... we cant afford to even market our services like PC and Car companies and you want us to have standards? when everyone is willing to pitch in to the idea thats when it comes to life if its only the idea of a few people it will remain that an Idea.. unless you can create your own product










I'm all for anything that will make our industry better but the standardization that I am looking for is completely different than the one you are. for example I would just like to go to a job and the labeling of the wire was the exact same as it is anywhere else... that would be huge! so if we're gonna make anything a standard I'd like to start somewhere small


----------



## roddymcg

I will ask again, since Amirn seems to have all the answers. Why would Lutron make a switch to work with Crestron for instance, then whose software would control this. And who in the end would be responsible for the system working?? I can see a bunch of people pointing fingers and one unhappy client, just like the good old days...


And how are these company's gonna make any money off of this? After all, whether you like it or not, this is a business where profit needs to be made. There is no profit in fixing others stuff...


Yes I can buy a computer for $400, I can also pay a few thousand dollars for one. Either way we all know support for most computer product is atrocious. When I call the Crestron's of the world I get help, and not from someone who wants to be my damn friend.


Or you could always come up with your own automated system...


Crestron seems to be pretty proud of their growth over the years, so maybe they are doing something right. Our Crestron sales have grown over the years as well. We do not do Lutron or Vantage, so I do not know the details. But I see their product going in all over the place so they must be doing something right as well.


----------



## QQQ

Some of amir's debating rules:


1. Misstate the debate opponents position ad nauseum. If a person asks him "what's so horrible about something being expensive" he responds with "why do you want to keep it expensive". If a person says "standards are fine but what you are suggesting is not going to happen" any time soon he responds with "why are you against standards"?


2. Subtly insult the debate opponent endlessly, while endless chastising the debate opponent for "making it personal".


3. Posts copies of the forum rules like a school marm and makes references to one of the forum mods as if it backs up his position. Suggests we contact David Bott if we have a problem.


4. Create division and a combative envinonment in a forum that apart from a few trolls usually has a great back and forth, and then chastise people for not being helpful when he's the one creating the combative environment in the first place.


5. Make everything "us versus them". amir wants to change things because he is such a good guy and doesn't like seeing this stuff kept too expensive. But if a person disagrees with him on a factual level, he suggests it's because they have selfish motives and want to see it kept expensive. So much for a "discussion".


6. Now pay attention to this one because it's quite predictable. For pointing these things out Amir will claim that I am "making it personal about him" (unless of course he ignores me as he has promised he will do).


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14914128
> 
> 
> automated lighting could be as old as Jesus for the sake of the conversation, my point was that automating lighting has not become a necessity like a PC has.



The PC was open before it was a necessity. People would laugh at you in the 1980s if you told them everyone would have one. They would laugh at you if you told them many houses would have more than one in 1990s. So I fail to see where you are going with this. The PC was this open architecture that led to it becoming a necessity. If the cost had remained the same, the cost would be $20,000 now and it would be nowhere near as popular as it is today. Hmmm, that is awfully close to the cost of a hardwired system







.


> Quote:
> You may have made the request for people not use analagies but it is impossible. You have to use analagies to respectfully analyze a situation. the fact that you dont like the comparisons doesnt make them any less right.



Are you kidding? I LOVE analogies. Haven't I shown that I can put them to good use more than the next guy?







What I don't like about them is you can make any point with them and that invariably, you start talking more and more about the analogy and not the topic that started it. So it is more a waste of bandwidth than getting some place useful.


But by all means, if you think your analogies are working, keep on using them! I will play for as long as you like







.



> Quote:
> Every company is different and some are a lot better than others we get lumped into one group sadly but hey for those of us doing it right..



When it comes to hardwired lighting you are ALL in the same bucket in two key respects. Access to the products is far more limited than it is for wireless/powerline. And the cost is very high, again relative to the technologies just mentioned. So unless you can break from this mold, we get to discuss everyone in the same light. Pun intended







.


> Quote:
> we cant afford to even market our services like PC and Car companies and you want us to have standards?



Why not? Standards can be wonderful for whoever takes the first step. They get to put in patents and have everyone else pay them in the future. As long as they are not greedy about it, they get adoption. Just about everything in A/V world works that way from HDMI to MPEG-2 and DVD. IBM didn't have to lift a finger to create the PC standard. All they did was publish the spec. No committee. No meetings. No fighting. It didn't cost them a dime to do so.


And with a standard, you get more companies involved and they all collectively spend more money to promote something than one single company or a fragmented effort of the few.


Mind you, it is not an easy path. You need to know how to play the game. The major Consumer Electronics firms are wonderful at this. Did you know that MPEG-2 royalties are probably past $1B/year? Nice little business that requires zero R&D, manufacturing, or even someone awake to answer a phone. Money just flows in.


> Quote:
> I'm all for anything that will make our industry better but the standardization that I am looking for is completely different than the one you are. for example I would just like to go to a job and the labeling of the wire was the exact same as it is anywhere else... that would be huge! so if we're gonna make anything a standard I'd like to start somewhere small



I like that too







. How about moving to a world where all the wiring is cat-5 while we are at it? Why not migrate from 7-wire to at least this? I want to put in the cable now and deal with automation but can't. I have to decide on the lighting system even if I don't know which one I am going to use! That is just crazy....


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14914429
> 
> 
> Some of amir's debating rules:6. Now pay attention to this one because it's quite predictable. For pointing these things out Amir will claim that I am "making it personal about him" (unless of course he ignores me as he has promised he will do).



When did I promise I will ignore you? I love tangling with you Q. Hopefully you know that by now







.


I enjoyed reading your list! Anything more to say? Saved me having to go to my shrink today. Wonder how many Crestron keypads I can afford with that newfound money!!!










I do have a question though. If you were to make a 6-item list for Q, what would be in there?


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/14914373
> 
> 
> I will ask again, since Amirn seems to have all the answers. Why would Lutron make a switch to work with Crestron for instance, then whose software would control this. And who in the end would be responsible for they system working?? I can see a bunch of people pointing fingers and one unhappy client, just like the good old days...



He wants everyone to make switches that respond to the exact same protocols. its not really a bad idea in general. if lets say the 2 larger companies did it (crestron and lutron). the problem is now any joe shmoe can control it and crestron and lutron just killed their own profit and lost customers.


I would prefer someone else (AMIR maybe? just a thought) to make this "switch" because it would then work all the other stuff ... still killing profit but at least they would have to worry about conforming to the standard and not killing their own profit to create the standard.


I personally dont care either way I cant afford to even put $50 dimmers in my house right now


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14914515
> 
> 
> I do have a question though. If you were to make a 6-item list for Q, what would be in there?



Finding you irritating would be at the top of the list







.


I have a few questions for you:


1. How would you suggest we get Crestron and Lutron and Vantage etc. to all make their keypads interoperable? Who/what will drive the standards adoption?


2. Realistically, how long do you think it will take to make it happen? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years?


3. Would you be willing to acknowledge that such interoperability might involve both pluses and negatives?


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14914590
> 
> 
> Finding you irritating would be at the top of the list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . The shame of it is amir, many of your points are not without merit. Yet you debate, *IMO*, in a way that precludes any real discussion.



Appreciate the sentiments







.



> Quote:
> I have a few questions for you:
> 
> 
> 1. How would you suggest we get Crestron and Lutron and Vantage etc. to all make their keypads interoperable? Who/what will drive the standards adoption?



There are two major options here:


1. We king-make one of them. That is, one company volunteers to open its spec and puts together a promotion program to get others to adopt it. If it works, they win big if they make say, $2-$5 royalty from every keypad (and more on the controller side if they so choose). The issue with this is that the other big dog in the market usually sees this as a threat and will fight to death to stop it.


2. The majors sit down and create a new standard. I personally like this one better. I think the current 7-wire system needs to go given how easy it is to create 1-wire networks today (there is a ton of silicon here) and the fact that we really, really need to use cat-5 cabling. This I think will bring the most innovation but alas, would be hardest pill to swallow for Lutron/Crestron. The other advantage is that it takes a while to do this and companies can use that time to figure out how to deal with new world order once the standard is finished.


The way this happens in the industry is for an underdog to take on the major(s). The underdog would be looking for an advantage to level the playing field. And there is no better one than wearing the standards hat. The message here could be quite powerful from marketing point of view. You all would know the candidates better than me. Would a company like HAI be able to do it? Vantage? Who would want to take on Crestron/Lutron?


Between the two, #2 is a much tougher road.


There is a third option where the top dogs all get together to make this happen. But I suspect there is not enough impetus to go there for all concerned.



> Quote:
> 2. Realistically, how long do you think it will take to make it happen? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years?



Path #1 is faster than #2. The latter is design by committee so I would give it 2-years for fighting in meetings







, and another 3-5 years for adoption to go into full swing. For #1, it could go really fast. As fast as a couple of years.


> Quote:
> 3. Would you be willing to acknowledge that such interoperability might involve both pluses and negatives?



For different people, yes. I see no down side for the consumer. I see a downside for the biggest guys in the business if they don't know how to play the game right. And the game unfortunately, is very complicated and I have seen few individuals really master it.


Thanks by the way for a thought provoking post! What is your thoughts?


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14914803
> 
> 
> Appreciate the sentiments
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> There are two major options here:
> 
> 
> 1. We king-make one of them. That is, one company volunteers to open its spec and puts together a promotion program to get others to adopt it. If it works, they win big if they make say, $2-$5 royalty from every keypad (and more on the controller side if they so choose). The issue with this is that the other big dog in the market usually sees this as a threat and will fight to death to stop it.
> 
> 
> 2. The majors sit down and create a new standard. I personally like this one better. I think the current 7-wire system needs to go given how easy it is to create 1-wire networks today (there is a ton of silicon here) and the fact that we really, really need to use cat-5 cabling. This I think will bring the most innovation but alas, would be hardest pill to swallow for Lutron/Crestron. The other advantage is that it takes a while to do this and companies can use that time to figure out how to deal with new world order once the standard is finished.
> 
> 
> The way this happens in the industry is for an underdog to take on the major(s). The underdog would be looking for an advantage to level the playing field. And there is no better one than wearing the standards hat. The message here could be quite powerful from marketing point of view. You all would know the candidates better than me. Would a company like HAI be able to do it? Vantage? Who would want to take on Crestron/Lutron?
> 
> 
> Between the two, #2 is a much tougher road.
> 
> 
> There is a third option where the top dogs all get together to make this happen. But I suspect there is not enough impetus to go there for all concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> Path #1 is faster than #2. The latter is design by committee so I would give it 2-years for fighting in meetings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , and another 3-5 years for adoption to go into full swing. For #1, it could go really fast. As fast as a couple of years.
> 
> 
> For different people, yes. I see no down side for the consumer. I see a downside for the biggest guys in the business if they don't know how to play the game right. And the game unfortunately, is very complicated and I have seen few individuals really master it.
> 
> 
> Thanks by the way for a thought provoking post! What is your thoughts?



Is this a serious post or just some joke??


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14914475
> 
> 
> The PC was open before it was a necessity. People would laugh at you in the 1980s if you told them everyone would have one. They would laugh at you if you told them many houses would have more than one in 1990s. So I fail to see where you are going with this. The PC was this open architecture that led to it becoming a necessity. If the cost had remained the same, the cost would be $20,000 now and it would be nowhere near as popular as it is today. Hmmm, that is awfully close to the cost of a hardwired system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



I now strongly believe that you understand what I am saying but quote me and post a reply with misdirection. my point is not what it was (hence the Jesus reference) but what it is. THE PC is a NECESSITY. Automation is not. Someday it will be but it far less useful than a pc is therefore taking longer to evolve.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14914475
> 
> 
> But by all means, if you think your analogies are working, keep on using them! I will play for as long as you like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



I thought you were here to help? so why even make this comment? are you here to play? debate? help? which is it?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14914475
> 
> 
> When it comes to hardwired lighting you are ALL in the same bucket in two key respects. Access to the products is far more limited than it is for wireless/powerline. And the cost is very high, again relative to the technologies just mentioned. So unless you can break from this mold, we get to discuss everyone in the same light. Pun intended
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



and using your 1980 pc analogy its a lot more attainable now than it was 10 years ago



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14914475
> 
> 
> Why not? Standards can be wonderful for whoever takes the first step. They get to put in patents and have everyone else pay them in the future. As long as they are not greedy about it, they get adoption. Just about everything in A/V world works that way from HDMI to MPEG-2 and DVD. IBM didn't have to lift a finger to create the PC standard. All they did was publish the spec. No committee. No meetings. No fighting. It didn't cost them a dime to do so.



Wrong, everything costs moeny from you paying people to create it to making it a patent to protecting it with your lawyer. That to me sounds like plenty of lifted fingers.. not to mention creating the material to test it on and so forth



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14914475
> 
> 
> And with a standard, you get more companies involved and they all collectively spend more money to promote something than one single company or a fragmented effort of the few.



Agreed



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14914475
> 
> 
> Mind you, it is not an easy path. You need to know how to play the game. The major Consumer Electronics firms are wonderful at this. Did you know that MPEG-2 royalties are probably past $1B/year? Nice little business that requires zero R&D, manufacturing, or even someone awake to answer a phone. Money just flows in.



probably? I would prefer factual information about that and what it took to create the standard and patent



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14914475
> 
> 
> I like that too
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . How about moving to a world where all the wiring is cat-5 while we are at it? Why not migrate from 7-wire to at least this? I want to put in the cable now and deal with automation but can't. I have to decide on the lighting system even if I don't know which one I am going to use! That is just crazy....



I wouldn't be against this either... but you can already have Cat5 do almost anything in your house right now... so we're almost there!


If you're gonna debate about something fine. but call it what it is, a debate. You are taking the pro or the con to any and everything Q or I say. and you will continue to do so until some unwarranted admission of guilt or agreement.


----------



## QQQ

amir,


I call a temporary truce







. But like all truces, you never know when it will be broken and each side will probably blame it on the other







.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14914803
> 
> 
> The majors sit down and create a new standard. I personally like this one better. I think the current 7-wire system needs to go given how easy it is to create 1-wire networks today (there is a ton of silicon here) and the fact that we really, really need to use cat-5 cabling. This I think will bring the most innovation but alas, would be hardest pill to swallow for Lutron/Crestron. The other advantage is that it takes a while to do this and companies can use that time to figure out how to deal with new world order once the standard is finished.



Not to avoid your questions, but first a couple other things. Years ago I was very happy that Vantage had adopted Cat 5 as the standard for their wiring. We are talking about 10 years ago. Then Vantage brought out a new system and their big talking point was that it used a non-polarity sensitive two-wire bus. They thought this was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I was upset because I felt it was a big step backwards. When I asked them why they did this, they said it was because they had traced a majority of their tech support calls to improperly terminated Cat 5. I'd have much preferred Cat 5 but that's a good example of how different a companies viewpoint can be. I saw Cat 5 as a highly desirable standard. They saw it as something that was causing a lot of tech support calls and unhappy dealers/customers. I'm NOT saying they made the right decision, I'd have preferred they "fixed" the problem by requiring all their dealers to buy Cat 5 testers. But even that would probably have not been as successful as the choice they made. I'm using this little story just to point out how different what you or I see as desirable can be from the market realities that these companies are dealing with.


What is the 7-wire system you are referring? Are you referring to Lutron 7-wire cable? And when you say a 1-wire network I assume you are referring to Cat 5?


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/14914827
> 
> 
> Is this a serious post or just some joke??



I assume you have never participated in either scenario I listed or you know which







.


----------



## Dahwoo

And am I to take it that everything that I made a comment about and you didnt respond to something you agree with? or is it something you just dont acknowledge as a legitimate point of view


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14914916
> 
> 
> amir,
> 
> 
> I call a temporary truce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . But like all truces, you never know when it will be broken and each side will probably blame it on the other
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Thanks







.



> Quote:
> What is the 7-wire system you are referring? Are you referring to Lutron 7-wire cable? And when you say a 1-wire network I assume you are referring to Cat 5?



Yes, I was talking about Lutron. That is what we are running for our QED shades. I thought Crestron uses something similar. No?


As to 1-wire, it is a clever and cheap communication protocol over a single wire including power. You can read about it here: http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/1-wire/ . There are a lot of components arleady available from thermometers to memory. It has authentication, etc. It can run over cat-5. But that is just one idea. Anything based on cat-5 would be fine.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14915001
> 
> 
> And am I to take it that everything that I made a comment about and you didnt respond to something you agree with? or is it something you just dont acknowledge as a legitimate point of view



No. You can assume I don't want to argue with everyone on every point







. If it is important, I am happy to respond to your post. Just say so.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14914128
> 
> 
> **
> 
> when someone tells you its to make money it hasn't satisfied you, I said what I know from our company to be true, that not every customer is like you and has a good understanding of the product. Then you say its our place to educate people or we as a industry should educate people more. To me its just like kids in school, some want to learn it and some dont no matter how much you make'em go if they dont want to learn they wont. same as consumers if you really want to learn more there are so many resources (including this site) that can get people the info they need. Those that dont want to learn pay people that have knowledge. You have access to DIY product but are upset that product that is not geared towards someone like yourself is not sold to any and everyone.
> 
> 
> My job is to educate you on what you bought. If you come to me personally with something I will tell you what I believe to be the pros and cons of it... A salesman may not but for the most part Tech's will generally tell you this information.
> 
> 
> when everyone is willing to pitch in to the idea thats when it comes to life if its only the idea of a few people it will remain that an Idea.. unless you can create your own product



respond to the above, I dont really see anything argumentative in there.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14914940
> 
> 
> I assume you have never participated in either scenario I listed or you know which
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .




So some very successful companies open up their protocol so you can save a buck. I guess double digit growth for those company's is a bad thing...


Good luck on your quest...


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14914128
> 
> 
> You have access to DIY product but are upset that product that is not geared towards someone like yourself is not sold to any and everyone.



What DIY product do I have access to?



> Quote:
> My job is to educate you on what you bought. If you come to me personally with something I will tell you what I believe to be the pros and cons of it... A salesman may not but for the most part Tech's will generally tell you this information.



And I and others appreciate it.



> Quote:
> when everyone is willing to pitch in to the idea thats when it comes to life if its only the idea of a few people it will remain that an Idea.. unless you can create your own product



Are you asking me to get into this business and drive this standardization?


P.S. I couldn't understand the other bit I did not respond to







.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/14915131
> 
> 
> So some very successful companies open up their protocol so you can save a buck.



So I take it you think Toshiba and Warner should have kept DVD to themselves and not licensed it to anyone else. Right?


Did you read anything I said about how standards work? You know, the part where companies make hundreds of millions of dollars (not a typo) from MPEG-2 standard alone. Every Blu-ray player has three video codecs. Many companies make three times the royalty for the exact same patent used in all three!!! I assume you have never heard of things like "field of use." There are many ways to make money from standards.


I should know, having driven standards for 20+ years now in every company from Sony to Microsoft. One of the above standards in Blu-ray came from my team at Microsoft. If you want to make snide remarks, please back them with some specifics so that we can at least have a proper conversation.



> Quote:
> I guess double digit growth for those company's is a bad thing...



Who said this? I am trying to help them achieve triple digit growth














. The fact that you don't see it, doesn't mean it is not there.


----------



## roddymcg

I guess company's like Crestron, Lutron, and Vantage are just not going to make for very long then. A part time writer knows so much more about their business model than they do, or what they have accomplished.


So how about that HD DVD thing go for Toshiba and Warner, are you claiming this as one of your successes??


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/14915328
> 
> 
> I guess company's like Crestron, Lutron, and Vantage are just not going to make for very long then. A part time writer knows so much more about their business model than they do, or what they have accomplished.



You forgot to mention that part-timer writer doesn't even get paid for those articles! He must have not have anything good to say.











> Quote:
> So how about that HD DVD thing go for Toshiba and Warner, are you claiming this as one of your successes??



No, one of my successes is using you to get over 10,000 post count here!














And you thought you were smarter than me














.


----------



## QQQ

amir,


If you were to point to an industry that has a business model that you like the best, is that the computer industry?


----------



## Syphon Filter

Woah,


Hold the phone, now the issue is that CI's dont expose their margins to the public? You want them to tell you what the margins they operate at are so you have THE ACE up your sleeve in any and all negotiations on pricing/discounts? I don't think that is EVER going to happen.


Do you go down to Best Buy and expect them to tell you how much they are making on each product they sell? Come on man your statements are absolutely ludicrous. You can go to any CI and get a quote on a lighting system that meets your requirements, if you do not like the price you can negotiate or alternatively get a competitive quote.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14913056
> 
> 
> No, I said you can charge for your services. But be transparent about it. The 45% mark-up on my controller came out to over $3000. The mark up on an IR repeater is probably $30. Same effort is involved in ordering both. I will pay for support separately and don't *want* to pay more for an item just because it costs more money.
> 
> 
> 
> The keyword here is transparency perhaps more than even cost efficiency.



It seems to me that many of your arguments are based on what you "want". Since I answered a fair number of you questions earlier, I'd like to continue with a little Q&A if you don't mind.


You seem to think that pricing transparency is very important. You "want" to know what the markup is on everything you purchase. You have also stated several times that you do not mind paying for support/services. Do you also want to know what the margin is on professional services? If not, why not?


> Quote:
> Now, if you charged me nothing to program and design the system, then I could understand. My Lutron shades guy is doing just that and simply living from the equipment margin.



So to clarify here, in this instance you did not mind paying an equipment markup because he is "giving you" the programming and installation?


----------



## QQQ

More questions







.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14907021
> 
> 
> I found a way to get around the 45% mark-up on equipment. It should not have required the hoops I jumped through to do this.



Why should it not have? That's what people usually have to do when they want to try to buy direct.



> Quote:
> I am happy to pay for your time and effort, but please don’t pile up your margin on top of the manufacturer.



OK, a couple more questions.


1. There is frequently a large cost associated with representing the manufacturers whose products you don't think we have a right to mark up. For some of us in the neighborhood of hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. How would you suggest we recoup those costs?


2. This is probably my most important question yet Amir







. Is it wrong for an equipment dealer to mark up product? Or is it only wrong for a services firm to mark up product? And if it is wrong for a services firm to mark up product, conversely is it wrong for an equipment dealer to charge for service?



> Quote:
> My contractor charges me another 15% on top of any sub fees.



What do sub fees have to do with equipment? Does your contractor have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to maintain his dealerships? Or can he just go to the lumberyard and order whatever he wants? Does he have to stock inventory for replacements? Does he have to take losses on demo equipment as I just did when I had to sell some old stock and take a $10,00 hit on it?


----------



## QQQ

And one more question to start off the morning







.


Let's present a hypothetical scenario. Two businesses with a similar cost structure. Both provide equipment and services. Both incur a cost for both, that is, a cost to pay for the labor being resold, and a cost to pay for (and maintain dealerships) for the equipment being sold (I'm sure you realize that there can be many, many costs involved in maintaining a dealership above and beyond merely buying and reselling the product).


The first company, let's call them Joe Schmoe's Integration Company charges $75 per hour for their techs and marks up their equipment 35 percent.


We know you object to this and don't want to pay the "double" markup.


The second company, let's call them Frank's Integration Company, charges $125 per hour for their techs but don't mark up their equipment.


When these two companies bid a job they are usually within a few percent of one another, give or take, and both end up with a 10% net profit at the end of the year.


Are you OK with paying Frank here since he is not charging you the "double" markup?


One last question and then I will give you an opportunity to answer all of my questions (and I sure hope you answer







. I just visited the websites of thre two companies you used to work for, Sony and Microsoft. Don't worry, this is not an attack







, I think it's a very fair question.


When I visit each companies website, I am able to purchase direct from them. I notice that both of them sell at full retail. This seems strange to me







. That means I am paying them double, doesn't it? In other words, that means they are not only making the markup that they would make selling to Best Buy, but on top of that they are making the markup that Best Buy would make off of me. Do you think that is wrong?


Good morning!


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14915020
> 
> 
> Yes, I was talking about Lutron. That is what we are running for our QED shades. I thought Crestron uses something similar. No?



No. The 7 conductor wire is mainly for Lutron shades. Their lighting system uses a 4 wire RS485 bus as does Crestron. Vantage uses a 2-wire bus. Not sure what Litetouch uses.


BTW, while Cat 5 will do just fine for data, I assume you realize that 7 conductor shade wire is carrying power to the shades? Similarly, Cat 5 is now able to be used on most Crestron and AMX touchscreens, but an additional cable is still needed for powering large touchscreens.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14915465
> 
> 
> amir,
> 
> 
> If you were to point to an industry that has a business model that you like the best, is that the computer industry?



Computer industry as a whole? No way. Software industry, yes, yes, yes!


If I were Crestron/Lutron I would be CQC in a heartbeat. Then over time would try to figure out how to get out of hardware manufacturing and focus on control software and services.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14917243
> 
> 
> Computer industry as a whole? No way. Software industry, yes, yes, yes!
> 
> 
> If I were Crestron/Lutron I would be CQC in a heartbeat. Then over time would try to figure out how to get out of hardware manufacturing and focus on control software and services.



And let me guess you dont think the mark-up on software is outrageous?


----------



## Dahwoo

LOL I think I've got it... Amir only wants companies to make a certain amount of money... its ok to make a couple hundred dollars its just not ok to make thousands.


I can go out and buy Vista ultimate or any other OS for $200 to $400 depending that little piece of software by your standards only costs $5 - $10 to make because you dont care about cost of creation... you only care about cost to produce.


but if it cost me $1000 dollars for a processor you dont understand why it costs you $2000 to buy.


and I would really love for you to answer Q's question about going directly to the manufacturer's site and paying full retail.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Syphon Filter* /forum/post/14915842
> 
> 
> Woah,
> 
> Hold the phone, now the issue is that CI's dont expose their margins to the public?



No, you may have missed the larger picture. That being that this is all too expensive to meet the demand out there. I would be happy to pay say, 25X more than a toggle switch to get automation. But that doesn't seem to be enough. I am even willing to pay 50X. But that is not enough either. So you ask me how to still get there and I shared how I managed to get the costs down and still get a hardwired lighting. And neither the low-voltage/automation guy nor the electrician working on my job is unhappy. So we have a nice win-win situation.


If you have a smarter solution, then by all means, I am here to listen. You are in the industry. It is your job to provide solutions/alternatives. Not mine. All I can do is articulate my needs as a consumer and with it, an untapped market. If all you have to offer is "stuff is expensive if you can't afford it, don't buy it" then I have heard the before and you are not adding anything to the conversation.


> Quote:
> You want them to tell you what the margins they operate at are so you have THE ACE up your sleeve in any and all negotiations on pricing/discounts? I don't think that is EVER going to happen.



Well, it has already happened in my case







. Say, since you all love car analogies, do you walk into the dealership without looking up the invoice price?


> Quote:
> Do you go down to Best Buy and expect them to tell you how much they are making on each product they sell?



No, I am able to look them up on the Internet first







. Start by clicking on the forum sponsors above. Or look in the many threads here on the best deals. Knowing that the BBY makes most of their money on service contracts, I am able to negotiate a deal that they like and buy stuff in person. BTW, research shows that 50% of the shoppers for electronics search the item they want to buy on the retailer web site before going into the store! They may not like the Internet for shopping but sure like it for research.


This is the part of the message that doesn't seem to be internalized. You are not talking to average Joe on this forum. You are talking about educated buyers who want to get maximum performance by not overpaying for any single item (the 50% above). I appreciate you may have customers who happily walk into BBY, don't negotiate, and pay list price and walk out. But that ain't us.


> Quote:
> You can go to any CI and get a quote on a lighting system that meets your requirements, if you do not like the price you can negotiate or alternatively get a competitive quote.



I did get quotes. And based on even the best one, I would not have installed any of those systems and your industry would have lost me as a customer. As it is, I found a way to get the prices down without making anyone upset, other than the folks here that are not even going to work on my house














.


Let's deal with this white elephant. Why the resentful attitude? Folks are going as far as name calling it seems. What are you afraid of if someone knows the cost of the gear you buy? Do you have trouble justifying your services that you have to stuff some of the profits in the equipment box? If so, then I think you are less of a businessman than you should be. You provide valuable services based on your experience. You should get paid what you need to get paid. My point is to not cloud the issue and make the customer think they are paying 100X the price of the toggle switch before they get down to paying you to automate everything. It is an instant turn off for many of us who are not used to paying list prices for any electronics gear. And again remember, we are the customer. Whether we are wrong or right, we are right!


----------



## Dahwoo

For that matter, can you tell us anywhere that I can go and buy something at wholesale? (excluding distributors who only sell to dealers)


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14917335
> 
> 
> And let me guess you dont think the mark-up on software is outrageous?



What mark-up? There is no cost of goods for software







. For OS software at lesat, we have gone to a model which completely bypasses the retail mark-up and passes on all the savings to the consumer (OEM pre-install). So in this context, I am not clear what you are getting at.


BTW, I will repeat once more. It does not matter what some other industry does. It matters what your industry does to earn my business and that of the many other people on AVS. So we can discuss analogies 'till we are blue in the face but at the end, they don't matter even if you win that argument.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14917418
> 
> 
> For that matter, can you tell us anywhere that I can go and buy something at wholesale? (excluding distributors who only sell to dealers)



What do you mean? Dealer invoice? If so, I gave an example of cars. We just bought one for my brother. Looked up the cost. Walked in, and in 5 minutes, we bought it at invoice. Sure, they may have kick-backs, etc. but not for a moment, did anyone get all fussy at the dealership because we knew the cost.


Then walk into Wal-Mart and buy a DVD. Guess what? They are selling new titles below cost. Yes, below cost. If you set up a little corner DVD store, your cost would be more than what they sell those titles at.


Take electronics. I used to work for Sony and we had a company store where we got equipment at company cost. You know how many things I bought there? Almost nothing. Because in every case, it was cheaper to buy them from a mail order place! What was funny was that I would go to Japan company store and it would be even more expensive than US and they made the darn things there (at that time). OK, so that had more to do with the exchange rate but it did help to make this story more interesting so I thought I mention it anyway







.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14917417
> 
> 
> Well, it has already happened in my case
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Say, since you all love car analogies, do you walk into the dealership without looking up the invoice price?



You are kidding list price is still way above production cost at a car dealership



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14917417
> 
> 
> This is the part of the message that doesn't seem to be internalized. You are not talking to average Joe on this forum. You are talking about educated buyers who want to get maximum performance by not overpaying for any single item (the 50% above). I appreciate you may have customers who happily walk into BBY, don't negotiate, and pay list price and walk out. But that ain't us.



See now you're projecting. Quite a few people here ... are just here for answers and alternatives not just to save a buck... everyone loves to save a buck but its not everyone's alterior motive here.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14917417
> 
> 
> I did get quotes. And based on even the best one, I would not have installed any of those systems and your industry would have lost me as a customer. As it is, I found a way to get the prices down without making anyone upset, other than the folks here that are not even going to work on my house
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



We (our industry) never had you as a customer. I assure you that the person doing the work on your house did not come to you with what he is currently doing as an original offer. So you used the art of negotiation. If you 2 are both happy Fine... There are companies that are insanely busy (in demand) so please explain to me why I would lower my price when I am so in demand? Why take less when someone else is willing to pay more.. some pay even more just because they are in a rush...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14917417
> 
> 
> Let's deal with this white elephant. Why the resentful attitude? Folks are going as far as name calling it seems. What are you afraid of if someone knows the cost of the gear you buy? Do you have trouble justifying your services that you have to stuff some of the profits in the equipment box? If so, then I think you are less of a businessman than you should be. You provide valuable services based on your experience. You should get paid what you need to get paid. My point is to not cloud the issue and make the customer think they are paying 100X the price of the toggle switch before they get down to paying you to automate everything. It is an instant turn off for many of us who are not used to paying list prices for any electronics gear. And again remember, we are the customer. Whether we are wrong or right, we are right!



My attitude is coming from the fact that you can throw in a legitimate statement like "the industry needs standards" with one that is outrageous "You should just sell the product at what it costs you to get it."


If that were the case why even sell the product why wouldn't I just say "hey man I'll do the job.. these are my rates.. go find your equipment" and of course I would be taking zero responsibility for it?


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14917555
> 
> 
> What do you mean? Dealer invoice? If so, I gave an example of cars. We just bought one for my brother. Looked up the cost. Walked in, and in 5 minutes, we bought it at invoice. Sure, they may have kick-backs, etc. but not for a moment, did anyone get all fussy at the dealership because we knew the cost.



Well I have a friend who owns a dealership and thats not exactly how it works but I'm not even going to get into how sleezy that industry is











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14917555
> 
> 
> Then walk into Wal-Mart and buy a DVD. Guess what? They are selling new titles below cost. Yes, below cost. If you set up a little corner DVD store, your cost would be more than what they sell those titles at.



its called buying in quantity if I bought as much as wal-mart my prices would be the same. not to mention the fact at how much it costs to buy in quantity up front with the expectation that you will sell most of it. and there's a reason Wal-Mart is being sued and fined all the time they might as well setup a bunch chinese kids in the back and have them produce the product.(and that wasn't meant to be racial at all) my point is wal-mart has slave labor tendencies.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14917555
> 
> 
> Take electronics. I used to work for Sony and we had a company store where we got equipment at company cost. You know how many things I bought there? Almost nothing. Because in every case, it was cheaper to buy them from a mail order place! What was funny was that I would go to Japan company store and it would be even more expensive than US and they made the darn things there (at that time). OK, so that had more to do with the exchange rate but it did help to make this story more interesting so I thought I mention it anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



you make my point with this statement. Its always cheaper to buy from someone who has less overhead. you think Sony who has a ton of employees (admins, paper pushers, etc) who dont make the company any money isnt going to sell product at a higher cost? Where and how do you expect anyone to cover these kinds of cost?


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14917395
> 
> 
> LOL I think I've got it... Amir only wants companies to make a certain amount of money... its ok to make a couple hundred dollars its just not ok to make thousands.



You laugh but it is so true. Everything is a matter of perceived value. Meet that and you are golden. I must have said this 100 times. The perceived value of hardwired lighting is relative to toggled light switches. Ratchet that to 100X the ratio and you better believe I am not going to pay 45% margins on top of the expensive gear, programming, etc.


> Quote:
> I can go out and buy Vista ultimate or any other OS for $200 to $400 depending that little piece of software by your standards only costs $5 - $10 to make because you dont care about cost of creation... you only care about cost to produce.



You don’t pay $200 for the OS and never have. You buy the OS bundled with your PC. As I mentioned before, that takes out the entire margin since every OEM competes on that basis to earn your business.


But let’s take your inflated numbers. As I mentioned, the average PC lasts 4 years before it is replaced. Divide $200 by 4 and you get $50 or about $4/month. That is half of what Comcast charges for HBO I think (entertainment “software”). I ask you now, which one is more useful to your life: HBO or your PC? And put aside Sex and the City







.


At the end of the day, the OS value proposition has been made clear to consumers and they are willing to pay it. Hardwired lighting has not or it would not be compared to Rolex watches and Ferraris.


> Quote:
> but if it cost me $1000 dollars for a processor you dont understand why it costs you $2000 to buy.



I would kiss your feet if we were talking about $2000. I would kiss it even if it were $4000. But a hardwired lighting system starts at $20,000 and quickly climbs up from there. We are talking car prices here. Let me see: drive a new car or have “scenes” in my house. New car… Scenes… New car… Scenes. I think most people will go for the new car







.


> Quote:
> and I would really love for you to answer Q's question about going directly to the manufacturer's site and paying full retail.



I haven’t read any of them since you all seem to like to gang up at once. It is just one of me and my fingers are getting tired. You think as an industry, you come out well doing this, especially with the comments made regarding me last night? Would love to know the answer to that latter before answering any more of your posts.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14917665
> 
> 
> You don't pay $200 for the OS and never have. You buy the OS bundled with your PC. As I mentioned before, that takes out the entire margin since every OEM competes on that basis to earn your business.



go to wal-mart and try to buy Vista, tell me how much it costs.. build your own computer because it would perform much better









tell me how much that would cost you.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14917665
> 
> 
> But let's take your inflated numbers. As I mentioned, the average PC lasts 4 years before it is replaced. Divide $200 by 4 and you get $50 or about $4/month. That is half of what Comcast charges for HBO I think (entertainment software). I ask you now, which one is more useful to your life: HBO or your PC? And put aside Sex and the City
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> At the end of the day, the OS value proposition has been made clear to consumers and they are willing to pay it. Hardwired lighting has not or it would not be compared to Rolex watches and Ferraris.



Great I'm glad we're doing math now... lets just say someone has a $1mil home that home is going to be worth more if the lighting is automated or even if its just wired for it(fact). that home could be around for lets just say 50 years. that lighting system costs say $20,000 since you're bringing up the cheapest OS. So, $20,000 thats about $400 a year and $33 a month(over 50 years). not bad for something you dont necessarily have to have. Because you do have alternatives that are much cheaper and it will undoubtedly last longer than your pc


you can add on to the cost's with additional requests as with ANYTHING and everything else


----------



## Dahwoo

and by the way the perceived value is what each individual person perceives it to be. if its not worth paying $200 for a light switch(keypad) that turns you're lights all off or creates a scene for you then that is your perception.. you're not alone... but saying that it is compared to a toggle switch is not even close. for you its cut and Dry swith that does one thing vs. switch that does multiple things


When I view and/or thinking about spending money on something, I think is it going to save me time, is it going to make me comfortable, does it have value or added value and most importantly is it going to make me happy.. I then look at the cost ... if the 2 are balanced I pay if I think its too high I negotiate for a better price and if that doesn't work than I wait. because if you remember small touchpanels used to cost $20k 10years ago and didnt look as good or function as well. now you get all that and more for less... I say its a matter of time while you say the time is now. I think your only problem is patience.


and you brought the debate on, where are all your "supporters" who back your idea surely they must have some input... I will gladly share this debate with anyone but since you seem to be the only one who has more than one response on the topic I guess you'll have to do and instead of trying to play a game of wits answer questions that are related to the topic or you're debate instead of creating the "perfect world scenario"


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14917665
> 
> 
> At the end of the day, the OS value proposition has been made clear to consumers and they are willing to pay it. Hardwired lighting has not or it would not be compared to Rolex watches and Ferraris.



1. Please define a value proposition to me.


2. Can an expensive product have a value proposition?


----------



## buckswope

I thought this thread would take a turn like this.


Why does it always come down to what the markup is on protected lines?


I'll answer my own question.


Because those outside the CI industry don't put a value on what a CI does, or the responsibilities a CI shoulders to get a job done right. We are in the way of a lower cost transaction, and we charge too much for our labor.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14917964
> 
> 
> 1. Please define a value proposition to me.



Value proposition is what a company articulates as the goods/services it produces and benefits therein in return for the payment it is asking.



> Quote:
> 2. Can an expensive product have a value proposition?



Any company in business has a value proposition, whether the product is expensive or not.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *buckswope* /forum/post/14918102
> 
> 
> I thought this thread would take a turn like this.
> 
> 
> Why does it always come down to what the markup is on protected lines?
> 
> 
> I'll answer my own question.
> 
> 
> Because those outside the CI industry don't put a value on what a CI does, or the responsibilities a CI shoulders to get a job done right. We are in the way of a lower cost transaction, and we charge too much for our labor.



I don't know who you are giving this answer to because it doesn't apply to me. I have said repeatedly that I appreciate what a CI does and am paying mine $85/hour. I just don't want him to hide profits in equipment purchases, because that is a random way of charging me (see example I gave for the controller and IR repeater). That's all.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918195
> 
> 
> I don't know who you are giving this answer to because it doesn't apply to me. I have said repeatedly that I appreciate what a CI does and am paying mine $85/hour. I just don't want him to hide profits in equipment purchases, because that is a random way of charging me (see example I gave for the controller and IR repeater). That's all.



Amir I am a little lost. I thought you said you were paying the mark-up value and he was programming and installing for free. Which is it? are you getting it at cost and paying the $85/hr or Paying the mark-up and not paying anything for labor?










Just asking because the above post contradicts a previous post or I may have misunderstood


----------



## buckswope




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918195
> 
> 
> I don't know who you are giving this answer to because it doesn't apply to me. I have said repeatedly that I appreciate what a CI does and am paying mine $85/hour. I just don't want him to hide profits in equipment purchases, because that is a random way of charging me (see example I gave for the controller and IR repeater). That's all.



It was you, in part. Here's a question:


My company uses revenue earned from profit on hardware to support the hardware in the field. Manufacturers of product seldom or never pay to have anything looked at in the field, nor do they pay for firmware uploads, etc. All that is on the CI. If your CI cannot make revenue from the sale, what are your expectations for support of the hardware once the installation is complete?


Here's a hint; responding with a "I don't expect problems" is an inartful dodge, and not a useful answer. _Everything_ breaks. Who's responsible for the labor to fix it?


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> For that matter, can you tell us anywhere that I can go and buy something at wholesale? (excluding distributors who only sell to dealers)



If you know how to do it, it can be done.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14917889
> 
> 
> and you brought the debate on, where are all your "supporters" who back your idea surely they must have some input...



First, no one lets them get a word in. You all posting at machine gun rate. Second, they are sending me private PMs saying how annoyed they are that you all gang up together and beat up folks who don't just accept what you say. Third, few people want to waste the time, nor want to tolerate non-sense like this thrown at them:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roddymcg* /forum/post/14915328
> 
> 
> I guess company's like Crestron, Lutron, and Vantage are just not going to make for very long then. A part time writer knows so much more about their business model than they do, or what they have accomplished.
> 
> 
> So how about that HD DVD thing go for Toshiba and Warner, are you claiming this as one of your successes??



I have been around a long time. But I can only remember one instance that an industry person threw something like this at me. My head is low on behalf of every industry person who hangs around here. We all go down in the eyes of the many people who read, but don't post, bickering like school children this way. If you have a point, make it with restrain. And follow the forum rule and discuss the point, and not the person.


The post count for this thread is at 500 by the way, and views at 20,000. So don't think we represent the majority opinion of people reading these posts.



> Quote:
> I will gladly share this debate with anyone but since you seem to be the only one who has more than one response on the topic I guess you'll have to do and instead of trying to play a game of wits answer questions that are related to the topic or you're debate instead of creating the "perfect world scenario"



Related to topic? You are now talking about Wal-Mart and child labor! What is next? Global warming? Peace in the middle east?


Mind you, I find you cordial so please, don't go down the gutter that some others seem to have. You won't find me running away but when it stops being fun, I am not sure I care to respond or not....


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> ... it will undoubtedly last longer than your pc




hmmm....I once had a huge debate with Sun and IBM consultants over Unix lasting longer and more reliable then a PC for a 24/7 warehousing operation....long story short..10 years later that PC is still running the system 24/7. I saved them $500K on the project alone (I pocketed a nice percentage







) and we can cluster the PCs for extreme performance, upgrades are easy and they walk all over the competition in competitive costing because of those type of savings


The idea that a PC is not reliable is from those that do not know how to make the reliable or those stuck learning only one thing (tunnel vision). Im happy the companies I work with do not have many people with this mindset, if they do they are not invited to the meetings


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> First, no one lets them get a word in. You all posting at machine gun rate. Second, they are sending me private PMs saying how annoyed they are that you all gang up together and beat up folks who don't just accept what you say. Third, few people want to waste the time, nor want to tolerate non-sense like this thrown at them:



Dont worry about these guys! Its like People going to the circus, We enjoy the acts but there is no reason to keep going back for the same show over and over


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918195
> 
> 
> I don't know who you are giving this answer to because it doesn't apply to me. I have said repeatedly that I appreciate what a CI does and am paying mine $85/hour. I just don't want him to hide profits in equipment purchases, because that is a random way of charging me (see example I gave for the controller and IR repeater). That's all.



1. If a retailer is selling a product are they "hiding profits" in the equipment?


2. If a retailer sells a product and makes a profit on it, and then charges to install it, is he "hiding profits" in the labor?


3. I read your example of the controller and IR repeater. You said:



> Quote:
> The 45% mark-up on my controller came out to over $3000. The mark up on an IR repeater is probably $30. Same effort is involved in ordering both. I will pay for support separately and don't want to pay more for an item just because it costs more money.



Notice the use of the word "want" again? You 'don't "want" to pay more'. I don't want to pay $5 a gallon for gas.


But back to your statement. To clarify, you believe that is the profit on an IR repeater is $30, the profit should be the same on the $3000 controller? Could you explain the calculation a little more? Is $30 the proper amount of profit you "want" to pay?


p.s. I sure hope you are going to answer my earlier questions.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *buckswope* /forum/post/14918304
> 
> 
> My company uses revenue earned from profit on hardware to support the hardware in the field. Manufacturers of product seldom or never pay to have anything looked at in the field, nor do they pay for firmware uploads, etc. All that is on the CI. If your CI cannot make revenue from the sale, what are your expectations for support of the hardware once the installation is complete?



Appreciate the explanation. I think that is the core of the misunderstanding here. I am not asking you to change your business practices for everyone. I am asking to cater to the needs of AVS Forum members. We don't want you to come and update the firmware. We want to do it ourselves. We don't want you to change the program. We want to do it ourselves. We don't need you to take full responsibility for the system working over time. We are willing to do it oursevels as we do with our Audio/Video purchases.


That is the unmet need.


Putting that aside, I am Ok if you come and tell me that you will charge me $85/hour after the sale to do anything. I realize that is not how you do business but for me, I like to pay for what I get. Not pre-pay in some obscure way for services I may not use.



> Quote:
> Here's a hint; responding with a "I don't expect problems" is an inartful dodge, and not a useful answer. _Everything_ breaks. Who's responsible for the labor to fix it



In my case, it would be my labor to fix it. As it is when my projector breaks. The whole nature of a DIY solution is that the responsibility shifts to the DIY person. And we are OK with that. Really, we are.


Thanks for the post by the way. I now realize the source of some tension. Folks may be thinking we are telling them to completely change the way they do business which we are not. We simply want services designed to meet our needs as we already have in other equipment we discuss in this forum.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918315
> 
> 
> First, no one lets them get a word in. You all posting at machine gun rate. Second, they are sending me private PMs saying how annoyed they are that you all gang up together and beat up folks who don't just accept what you say. Third, few people want to waste the time, nor want to tolerate non-sense like this thrown at them:



1) its just a matter of typing thats how you get a word in

2) Why anyone would send you a PM talking about how annoyed they are doesnt make sense the forum is for people to discuss anything with the industry including their frustrations

3)I cant speak for comments made by someone else, but never-the-less understood











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918315
> 
> 
> I have been around a long time. But I can only remember one instance that an industry person threw something like this at me. My head is low on behalf of every industry person who hangs around here. We all go down in the eyes of the many people who read, but don't post, bickering like school children this way. If you have a point, make it with restrain. And follow the forum rule and discuss the point, and not the person.



sounds as if you're playing both sides of the fence on this one. sometimes consumer.... sometimes CI... "we all go down" are you speaking on behalf of the CI's?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918315
> 
> 
> The post count for this thread is at 500 by the way, and views at 20,000. So don't think we represent the majority opinion of people reading these posts.



Thats good for the posts. Hopefully we(everyone posting, including you) have actually made somethings clear and brought up some interesting thought food for those viewing




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918315
> 
> 
> Related to topic? You are now talking about Wal-Mart and child labor! What is next? Global warming? Peace in the middle east?



again you've twisted my point ... my point is that wal-mart is in the fore front for their business practices .. you brought them up I just commented...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918315
> 
> 
> Mind you, I find you cordial so please, don't go down the gutter that some others seem to have. You won't find me running away but when it stops being fun, I am not sure I care to respond or not....



Understood and I have been, I may be annoyed by some of the things that have been said but I am also OK with some of the others... Thats where I find my CHI










I Encourage anyone who has anything to say, to just say it and not PM Amir.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14918385
> 
> 
> 1. If a retailer is selling a product are they "hiding profits" in the equipment?



I was just told that was the case by another poster as to pay for support in the future.



> Quote:
> 2. If a retailer sells a product and makes a profit on it, and then charges to install it, is he "hiding profits" in the labor?



First, I don't consider a CI a retailer. You do not pay rent to display the equipment, have inventory risk, credit card fees, etc. You buy "just in time" and for that, I don't expect to pay full retail margins as high as 45%. And remember, the general contractor marks up your fees by another 15% in cost+ situations.


Beyond that, I don't get your question.



> Quote:
> 3. I read your example of the controller and IR repeater. You said:
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the use of the word "want" again? You 'don't "want" to pay more'. I don't want to pay $5 a gallon for gas.



And you like to be compared to oil companies who distribute their goods? If so, I rest my case







.


But sure, I am your customer and I can best articulate what I want for someone to earn my business.



> Quote:
> To clarify, you believe that is the profit on an IR repeater is $30, the profit should be the same on the $3000 controller? Could you explain the calculation a little more? Is $30 the proper amount of profit you "want" to pay?



Happy to because I asked my CI the question. He said it takes him some time to order something and that he would usually charge $85/hour to do that. I told him I would be happy to pay $85/hour for his purchasing time instead of charging me the mark-up and he was good with that. So now he doesn't charge me any mark up and I just pay him for the work that he does, at a competitive rate. We are both happy







.


> Quote:
> p.s. I sure hope you are going to answer my earlier questions.



I don't think I will ever get to read them at this rate







. Is there one burning that you want me to address?


I am starting to think we should have a roundtable discussion some place and sell tickets for people to come and watch. Would sure be faster than typing everything







.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/14918350
> 
> 
> hmmm....I once had a huge debate with Sun and IBM consultants over Unix lasting longer and more reliable then a PC for a 24/7 warehousing operation....long story short..10 years later that PC is still running the system 24/7. I saved them $500K on the project alone (I pocketed a nice percentage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) and we can cluster the PCs for extreme performance, upgrades are easy and they walk all over the competition in competitive costing because of those type of savings
> 
> 
> The idea that a PC is not reliable is from those that do not know how to make the reliable or those stuck learning only one thing (tunnel vision). Im happy the companies I work with do not have many people with this mindset, if they do they are not invited to the meetings



Thats a good thing. I was using PC as the end all we can throw in a mac or whatever... depending on what you're doing you are more than likely going to be upgrading your Computer regardless of OS to the next bigger and badder thing.. that was my only real reason for even talking about a PC


and Penn I'm glad you feel the same way as amir and can (and for lack of a better phrase) take his side on this one. so some questions I have for you:

1)Do you agree entirely with everything he has said


2)Do you agree with anything I(or the others) have said that are in the CI world?


lastly has anything of this opened yours eyes to anything new?


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Here's a hint; responding with a "I don't expect problems" is an inartful dodge, and not a useful answer. Everything breaks. Who's responsible for the labor to fix it



Buy a warranty......


We buy dryers, washers, TVs, AV equipment all the time and 99% of us just fix it ourselves or buy another one. Why is this industry so different?


Everything breaks but only because people break it and I do understand what you are saying because I write software and have to support it when it fails and yes people can make things fail but I do not put that cost into anything up front. Instead like every other business I have support contracts.


Does it not work in this industry? Has it failed? If the biggest cost for you guys is the support then why not simply create support and warranty programs.


In the end I simply believe that the whole idea as HA as just a "Luxury" product is missing a huge potential revenue source.


Using your analogiess....


Yes, its nice to sell Ferrari's for a living because the margin is HUGE but there are many successful Honda dealerships out there too and last I checked the Ferrari is completely impracticle while the Honda is family staple.


Most people on here are not looking for Ferrari's either so I believe you guys hammering away at Amir simply do not know who your customer is on here. If you are here to find customers or help then do that but if you are here to sell a "Ferrari" I think you are probably wasting your precious time.


Someday this industry will be at a point where HA will be as normal as having AC in a house. Some of you will survive because you are very good at the "Ferrari" business but the rest of you will be looking for a different line of work....Just want to make sure you understand and remember that we told you back in 2008 about that


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918478
> 
> 
> First, I don't consider a CI a retailer. You do not pay rent to display the equipment, have inventory risk, credit card fees, etc.



I'm speechless. I have another question. Do you know ANYTHING about this industry at all







?!


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Thats a good thing. I was using PC as the end all we can throw in a mac or whatever... depending on what you're doing you are more than likely going to be upgrading your Computer regardless of OS to the next bigger and badder thing.. that was my only real reason for even talking about a PC
> 
> 
> and Penn I'm glad you feel the same way as amir and can (and for lack of a better phrase) take his side on this one. so some questions I have for you:
> 
> 1)Do you agree entirely with everything he has said
> 
> 
> 2)Do you agree with anything I(or the others) have said that are in the CI world?
> 
> 
> lastly has anything of this opened yours eyes to anything new?



Its a lot to read but in general I agree with his point of view....remember I was the guy taking the hits early on and I was throwing them back at the CIs here.


I believe no hidding upcharges should exist!! I believe you should bill for your time not hide your fees in the line items! I run a IT business for more then 15 years now and I have never once sold a piece of hardware or off the shelf package at a markup....I sell my services at a billable rate per hour period. I think its bad business to hide costs in any products, my customers no exactly what they are getting too.


Honestly, there are things I do agree with but the history of some of the CIs and me go back several years and they are just a cranky bunch of complainers!! My first post a long time ago when I was looking for HA products got me hammered!! I posted "Why is HA so expensive" I built a home over $750K but these guys think that warrants having a 50-75K system!!! WTF are they smoking........In the end I did my own for less then 20K! I have full HD around the house, I have touch screens, I have temperature control and lighting and its works very well. I have not even touched it for probably a year. To argue that a 20K lighting package is better then a cheaper one is silly, last I checked they BOTH TURN ON THE SAME LIGHT BULB







Crestron switch vs Extron switches of ebay??? Hmmmm..1/10th the cost and I have 1080P HD on my TVs too and movies playback anywhere....what do they do different again?


I guess its the stance they take and thinking everything else is crap compared to the products they sell, they have to convince themselves its worth it daily even though 99% of all customers they quote cringe at its price but since there is no choices out there the customer just accepts it in the end.


This opinion is not new either so its going to get the same BS response from the regular crowd










As for opening my eyes? No, I still think you guys do not understand what others have posted. For some reason you think you know what potential customers are out there but I do not think you do. I think there is a HUGE segment being missed because of current product pricing and current CI business practices.


Maybe in the end we will never agree because if I had my way this stuff would be just simple to install and that does not bode well for many here charging higher rates for customization.


Standard off the shelf systems installed by electricians/AC/plumber type tradesmen will be the future







Hey, Plumbers can make big money too!!


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> I'm speechless. I have another question. Do you know ANYTHING about this industry at all



lmao!!!


Do you use that question on everyone you do not agree with? I always wonder if you know anything about the industry you are in










Of course QQQ probably has me on his ignore list


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918478
> 
> 
> First, I don't consider a CI a retailer. You do not pay rent to display the equipment, have inventory risk, credit card fees, etc. You buy "just in time" and for that, I don't expect to pay full retail margins as high as 45%. And remember, the general contractor marks up your fees by another 15% in cost+ situations.



Not true, Overhead for having a store front is probably more than 15% for a lot of people.


I hate salesman as much as the next guy but how do you expect us to sell you this stuff if they do not get a profit(percentage). could you imagine if everyone had to pay $85/hr just to talk to someone to figure out what it is that they want? no one would even walk into a CI retail shop. nothing would be sold.


Let me stroke your ego a little bit. Not everyone is as smart as you and most need help. which brings me to the fact that the people that are as smart as you get the deals the want.. they know how to approach the situation. So cost case you are already getting what you want aside from the standardization aspect. You act like everything we do is set in stone..




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918478
> 
> 
> But sure, I am your customer and I can best articulate what I want for someone to earn my business.



And when people do this, 90% of the time they get what they want, am I right?




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918478
> 
> 
> I am starting to think we should have a roundtable discussion some place and sell tickets for people to come and watch. Would sure be faster than typing everything
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



I agree with this







How much would I get as the CI for explaining myself and my business practices? Do I get an even cut or larger percent? since I will have to bring "more" to the table to earn your business


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> depending on what you're doing you are more than likely going to be upgrading your Computer regardless of OS to the next bigger and badder thing.. that was my only real reason for even talking about a PC




I have a 6 year old PC running XP and CQC







It does nothing else...I bought it for $100. Its work 24/7 for 2 years unless my power goes out. I never see a reason to upgrade it or even upgrade CQC, I think Im many versions back now.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/14918529
> 
> 
> Most people on here are not looking for Ferrari's either so I believe you guys hammering away at Amir simply do not know who your customer is on here. If you are here to find customers or help then do that but if you are here to sell a "Ferrari" I think you are probably wasting your precious time.
> 
> 
> Someday this industry will be at a point where HA will be as normal as having AC in a house. Some of you will survive because you are very good at the "Ferrari" business but the rest of you will be looking for a different line of work....Just want to make sure you understand and remember that we told you back in 2008 about that



We as CI's are being bashed for trying to sell ferrari's. I as well as others are trying to explain that while you may be right, I could sell a honda, it doesn't make what we are doing wrong because we want to sell a ferarri.


The main point that you just brush off is that you have a choice... you dont have to buy a honda, you dont have to buy a ferrari... you could also be on the look out for a nice mid range mercedes because they're out there


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> no one would even walk into a CI retail shop



is there really such a thing as a CI retail shop?


Most CIs in my area are just part of a Audio/video retail store or a home structured wiring type business and any time we discuss the equipment (Crestron,russound,extron,etc) they have just a brochure on it, heck they do not even have a room setup for a demo










Maybe in the bigger cities but not in my neck of the woods.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/14918647
> 
> 
> Its a lot to read but in general I agree with his point of view....remember I was the guy taking the hits early on and I was throwing them back at the CIs here.
> 
> 
> I believe no hidding upcharges should exist!! I believe you should bill for your time not hide your fees in the line items! I run a IT business for more then 15 years now and I have never once sold a piece of hardware or off the shelf package at a markup....I sell my services at a billable rate per hour period. I think its bad business to hide costs in any products, my customers no exactly what they are getting too.
> 
> 
> Honestly, there are things I do agree with but the history of some of the CIs and me go back several years and they are just a cranky bunch of complainers!! My first post a long time ago when I was looking for HA products got me hammered!! I posted "Why is HA so expensive" I built a home over $750K but these guys think that warrants having a 50-75K system!!! WTF are they smoking........In the end I did my own for less then 20K! I have full HD around the house, I have touch screens, I have temperature control and lighting and its works very well. I have not even touched it for probably a year. To argue that a 20K lighting package is better then a cheaper one is silly, last I checked they BOTH TURN ON THE SAME LIGHT BULB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crestron switch vs Extron switches of ebay??? Hmmmm..1/10th the cost and I have 1080P HD on my TVs too and movies playback anywhere....what do they do different again?
> 
> 
> I guess its the stance they take and thinking everything else is crap compared to the products they sell, they have to convince themselves its worth it daily even though 99% of all customers they quote cringe at its price but since there is no choices out there the customer just accepts it in the end.
> 
> 
> This opinion is not new either so its going to get the same BS response from the regular crowd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for opening my eyes? No, I still think you guys do not understand what others have posted. For some reason you think you know what potential customers are out there but I do not think you do. I think there is a HUGE segment being missed because of current product pricing and current CI business practices.
> 
> 
> Maybe in the end we will never agree because if I had my way this stuff would be just simple to install and that does not bode well for many here charging higher rates for customization.
> 
> 
> Standard off the shelf systems installed by electricians/AC/plumber type tradesmen will be the future
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, Plumbers can make big money too!!




No, that's not the way it is at all penngray. Here is the norm at AVS. Here's someone from the IT industry. He posts asking about software. I immediately point him to CQC

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1077719 


In fact, I've been directing people to CQC for years. There are some jerk CI's just as there are some jerk DIY's, but all in all 90% on both sides are a helpful bunch. But what you do is troll and jump into every thread and take potshots and then claim "oh those nasty CI's" when people respond.


There are now 3 members of this forum who make perfect bedfellows. Perhaps you can now turn every single thread on the forum into debate.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> I agree with this How much would I get as the CI for explaining myself and my business practices? Do I get an even cut or larger percent? since I will have to bring "more" to the table to earn your business



You can bill me










But I would like to bill you what I charge per hour for my time










btw, you bring a fresh sense of logic to the debate! I just want to say thanks!


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/14918707
> 
> 
> is there really such a thing as a CI retail shop?
> 
> 
> Most CIs in my area are just part of a Audio/video retail store or a home structured wiring type business and any time we discuss the equipment (Crestron,russound,extron,etc) they have just a brochure on it, heck they do not even have a room setup for a demo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe in the bigger cities but not in my neck of the woods.



well I live in a big city and a lot of CI's have a store front.


and not to mention some people get a huge discount for letting CI's demo their house to potential customers as well ... another way to get a discount.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/14918680
> 
> 
> I have a 6 year old PC running XP and CQC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does nothing else...I bought it for $100. Its work 24/7 for 2 years unless my power goes out. I never see a reason to upgrade it or even upgrade CQC, I think Im many versions back now.



OK let me clarify even further.... I wasnt talking about you I was talking about people in general... most will change their computers that is a fact.


you do not represent the masses when you talk... you're usually just representing yourself.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/14918718
> 
> 
> You can bill me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I would like to bill you what I charge per hour for my time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> btw, you bring a fresh sense of logic to the debate! I just want to say thanks!



well we're selling tickets so why would I send you a bill? the pot is already there... I just want to know how much get for having to bring more to the discussion


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Let me stroke your ego a little bit. Not everyone is as smart as you and most need help. which brings me to the fact that the people that are as smart as you get the deals the want.. they know how to approach the situation. So cost case you are already getting what you want aside from the standardization aspect. You act like everything we do is set in stone..



So the first quotes we get should be ignored? I remember my two quotes.....I didnt ignore them, I did ask what discounts could be offered and lets just say we didnt proceed much after that.


The problem for guys like us is that we can use google to check prices of TVs, Matrix switches, Lighting solutions and so on. We can also find sites like http://www.cocoontech.com/ and learn about things so in the end we have enough knowledge to be dangerous but some of us do not want to go DIY either so what is out there for us? The answer I got 2 years ago was simply "We guess you can not afford it"...blah!! I would rather spend 20K a year gambling then to say I ever spent 20K on a lighting solution


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14918722
> 
> 
> well I live in a big city and a lot of CI's have a store front.



A store front of course is only one part of it. There are in many cases demo and/or display requirements, whether one owns a storefront or not. There are annual numbers that have to be achieved to carry certain lines. There is the insurance that has to be carried on the inventory. Just because a company does not operate as a retail store does not mean that don't have to carry inventory!


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/14918791
> 
> 
> So the first quotes we get should be ignored? I remember my two quotes.....I didnt ignore them, I did ask what discounts could be offered and lets just say we didnt proceed much after that.
> 
> 
> The problem for guys like us is that we can use google to check prices of TVs, Matrix switches, Lighting solutions and so on. We can also find sites like http://www.cocoontech.com/ and learn about things so in the end we have enough knowledge to be dangerous but some of us do not want to go DIY either so what is out there for us? The answer I got 2 years ago was simply "We guess you can not afford it"...blah!! I would rather spend 20K a year gambling then to say I ever spent 20K on a lighting solution



Now there's something worth commenting on. Its up to you whether or not you should ignore the quotes. asking how this can be modified to fit a smaller budget would probably be easier. and then saying I will do it for the lower price but I want you to throw in this, that and the other. ... you know negotiate... its just like anything else for everyone that wont there's one that will


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> well I live in a big city and a lot of CI's have a store front.
> 
> 
> and not to mention some people get a huge discount for letting CI's demo their house to potential customers as well ... another way to get a discount.



Well it was San Jose or Gator land.....better football game here so we decide to move here instead of there










Home demos for discounts are very cool!


How are those CI store fronts doing these days? I would think its a very expensive way to sell custom HA.



> Quote:
> OK let me clarify even further.... I wasnt talking about you I was talking about people in general... most will change their computers that is a fact.



Not true if we are talking about running an application 24/7....people will not/should not touch that PC. This is not about what I would do, its what anyone should do when running operational software! Turn off all updates and the PC will run for a very long time.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/14918647
> 
> 
> I believe no hidding upcharges should exist!! I believe you should bill for your time not hide your fees in the line items! I run a IT business for more then 15 years now and I have never once sold a piece of hardware or off the shelf package at a markup.



And of course all businesses are the same







. Those products you never mark up - do you buy them direct from the manufacturer? Do you have to sell 50K a year on a single line just to maintain a dealership? Do you have to stock a 20K demo system (I'm talking one manufacturer, now multiply that by x) to fulfill display requirements? Do you have to buy insurance for that inventory? Then take inventory losses when things get discontinued?


I thought not.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Now there's something worth commenting on. Its up to you whether or not you should ignore the quotes. asking how this can be modified to fit a smaller budget would probably be easier. and then saying I will do it for the lower price but I want you to throw in this, that and the other. ... you know negotiate... its just like anything else for everyone that wont there's one that will



I agree but in my case when they listed touchscreens for 3 or 4K and TVs for $5K and have no room to reduce those costs or offer lower costs alternatives the negotiations end quickly....."Sorry sir, we only offer Sony" at a 50% markup










hey, drop the margin on that and I will buy more of something else.....do they not get that?


To me its not the total $$$ spent, its what Im buying and its a huge premium to what I can buy online then I think its BS. Of course all B&M selling electronics are behind the 8-ball on this stuff...I do not even bother buying thing locally when everything online is so much cheaper....ei....Denon 2809 $1K at a local shop....Under $700 online....no brainer there.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> And of course all businesses are the same . Those products you never mark up - do you buy them direct from the manufacturer? Do you have to sell 50K a year on a single line just to maintain a dealership? Do you have to stock a 20K demo system (I'm talking one manufacturer, now multiply that by x) to fulfill display requirements? Do you have to buy insurance for that inventory? Then take inventory losses when things get discontinued?
> 
> 
> I thought not.



That is a valid point I do not believe in or need to hold inventory but I can do searches for that PC online.....I can build a PC for a fraction of what Dell or HP sells them for...the cost of the PC for me to build plus a standard couple hours of labor is what any company would get from me. My money is made from the code I write not the machines that run it. The customer can price check the PC, they can not do that with the custom code.


The same is true about touchscreens and Flat panels, we can all go online and compare prices and if your quote for a touchscreen or flat panel is 30 to 50% more then online do you not think we (the customer) are going to be a little upset?


so to stay being a Crestron rep, you have to sell 50K a year? I do not know why this is the customer's problem?


In the end, when you guys give customer quotes you know what happens so instead of figuring out a better way to get the bottom line you simply blame us for not knowing your business?


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14918419
> 
> 
> again you've twisted my point ... my point is that wal-mart is in the fore front for their business practices .. you brought them up I just commented....



OK, let's address your point regarding Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart sells those DVDs below *their* cost, not that of other people. Why do they do that? Because they have realized that DVDs come out once a week and if you can sell that a price someone can't resist, they come into the store and you can sell them something else with good margin. And they are not alone by any means.


Let me give you a personal example. I bought a boat a few years ago and as with my lighting system here







, attempted a DIY solution. I was buying about $20,000 worth of electronics from radar to fish finder and GPS. We have a big West Marine here. If you don't know the chain, they are like Macy's. They have a lot but charge a lot. Being a person who likes to buy electronics locally, I made friends with the manager at that store, hoping to get a discount. To my surprise, the manager told me he would price match even deals on the Internet! I asked him how he could afford to do that given his store overhead and such. He points to a $10 plastic gas tank and said: "I make money from that, not the electronics." He knows that by selling the electronics cheap, he gets the customer in the door and then he can sell him a bunch of other goods -- just like Wal-Mart above.


Now let's discuss BestBuy. I have gone in there and managed to buy electronics at even cheaper prices than Internet. I always succeed. Why? Because these guys think in the next breath, they can sell me that $90 "1080p HDMI" cable that cost them $30. And the Geek Squad service to install it for another $250. And let's not forget about extended "warranty." Of course, I don't buy either and spend 30 minutes saying No







. But that is how they make a living in a world where everyone knows the cost of things.


Again, I am not saying you all should do business this way. I am just asking why not sell it that way to forum members you are talking to. Many of the forum sponsors have AVS specials and such. If you want to cater to us, this is the way to do it.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14918609
> 
> 
> I'm speechless. I have another question. Do you know ANYTHING about this industry at all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?!



What I know is what I have dealt with in your industry







. In my case, my CI wanted to mark up the Centralite by 45%. I asked him where he was buying it from and it was the same distributor I can buy parts through. So in his case, he had no inventory risk. He didn't stock the item. He couldn't show it to me operational. Nothing. And for that, I was supposed to pay $3000+? To what end?


----------



## lcaillo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918997
> 
> 
> What I know is what I have dealt with in your industry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . In my case, my CI wanted to mark up the Centralite by 45%. I asked him where he was buying it from and it was the same distributor I can buy parts through. So in his case, he had no inventory risk. He didn't stock the item. He couldn't show it to me operational. Nothing. And for that, I was supposed to pay $3000+? To what end?



To what end? To pay his overhead and to increase his profit on the job. Why is that so hard to see. If he can't make a profit he won't be there to do the rest of the work you want. If you think you can do it cheaper with someone else or do it yourself then you have that option. If he can't find enough people to buy his systems then he won't stay in business or he'll have to adjust his pricing. No rocket science here...just people angling for a better deal and dealers trying to make a profit. It is the give and take of doing business.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14918883
> 
> 
> And of course all businesses are the same
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Those products you never mark up - do you buy them direct from the manufacturer?



You have made this point half a dozen time and I keep forgetting to comment on it. No, we don't bypass the dealer when we buy electronics. But we get to deal with people who charge us appropriate margin for the services they provide. An internet dealer charges less margin because they don't pay rent, etc. You seem to be saying that in your industry everyone has to pay the same huge mark-up regardless of the effort involved in ordering and getting the equipment. This irritates the savvy buyer who hangs around here to no end.


----------



## buckswope




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918386
> 
> 
> Appreciate the explanation. I think that is the core of the misunderstanding here. I am not asking you to change your business practices for everyone. I am asking to cater to the needs of AVS Forum members. We don't want you to come and update the firmware. We want to do it ourselves. We don't want you to change the program. We want to do it ourselves. We don't need you to take full responsibility for the system working over time. We are willing to do it oursevels as we do with our Audio/Video purchases.



That would make you unique in my experience. Every time I've sold gear where there's been a question after the fact, I've gotten calls and requests to come out. Very often on gear I've not sold, or cable boxes, or sat receivers installed by the satellite company. Why? Because I will answer my phone rather than put customers through a voice mail maze. It's easier to call me, under the guise of a friendly question, followed by a friendly suggestion to drop by some time (soon!) for a beer, and can I bring my laptop too?


Human nature being what it is, this is what happens. Are you declaring yourself not human? 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14918386
> 
> 
> 
> Putting that aside, I am Ok if you come and tell me that you will charge me $85/hour after the sale to do anything. I realize that is not how you do business but for me, I like to pay for what I get. Not pre-pay in some obscure way for services I may not use.
> 
> 
> 
> In my case, it would be my labor to fix it. As it is when my projector breaks. The whole nature of a DIY solution is that the responsibility shifts to the DIY person. And we are OK with that. Really, we are.



That's fair.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/14918948
> 
> 
> That is a valid point I do not believe in or need to hold inventory but I can do searches for that PC online.....I can build a PC for a fraction of what Dell or HP sells them for...the cost of the PC for me to build plus a standard couple hours of labor is what any company would get from me. My money is made from the code I write not the machines that run it. The customer can price check the PC, they can not do that with the custom code.
> 
> 
> The same is true about touchscreens and Flat panels, we can all go online and compare prices and if your quote for a touchscreen or flat panel is 30 to 50% more then online do you not think we (the customer) are going to be a little upset?



You shouldn't be upset you should take into account what we told you. if you buy something online the cost of doing business for that person is a lot cheaper than it is for the store front. they also have a larger audience and can thus sell the product to a larger market. Everyone wants everything to be this way so tell me why should I pay a software guy more than the next... when I can get some kid out of school to do it a little cheaper... granted you have more knowledge but the kid also could be very aware of my needs and more than capable to get the job done... its just a matter of what you want to spend your money on.


and BTW if you buy that product online see what the turn around rate for a refund, repair, or exchange is if any. you buy something online at a cheaper cost you take a risk of buying from someone you may not be able support you.


Just ask one of our customers who bought a $4000 dollar TV online (we didnt carry the line) and when it arrived the top left corner had no image... he couldnt get anyone on the phone to repair and tried contacting them finally they said you'll have to contact the manufacturer ... they told him that he didnt buy from an authorized dealer so he was out of luck.


he has/had money to burn but found out very quickly that cheaper isnt always better


----------



## buckswope




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14919038
> 
> 
> This irritates the savvy buyer who hangs around here to no end.



This irritates savvy buyers no end? Or the savvy buyers who hang around here to no end are irritated? Both, I suspect.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lcaillo* /forum/post/14919030
> 
> 
> To what end? To pay his overhead and to increase his profit on the job.



What overhead? He works out of his house. And spends 5 minutes ordering the parts online though the distributor.



> Quote:
> Why is that so hard to see.



Why is it so hard to see it in reverse? Are you paying list price for TVs and cars you buy? If not, why the differentiation here especially since above CIs have even less overhead.



> Quote:
> If he can't make a profit he won't be there to do the rest of the work you want.



I am paying him $85/hour. His first bid was $35K without the lighting system! If he can't make a living this way, then he should find something else to do.



> Quote:
> If you think you can do it cheaper with someone else or do it yourself then you have that option.



I wish I had that option, but I don't. Hardwired lighting is not sold in a manner that someone can go and buy it. Show me a single link to someone selling Crestron/Lutron (outside of ebay).


If you gave me the option, I would not have post one thing.



> Quote:
> If he can't find enough people to buy his systems then he won't stay in business or he'll have to adjust his pricing. No rocket science here...just people angling for a better deal and dealers trying to make a profit. It is the give and take of doing business.



Then the message is lost here. You all serve your current customers the way you do, and have the level of business you do. We are talking about how to expand the market and serve more people. If you are not interested in that discussion, then by all means, hang around somewhere else. But if you are, we are showing you another untapped business which still makes a lot of money for folks. Despite all the cost cutting I have done, my system will cost me around $35K when it is all said and done. You almost didn't have me.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lcaillo* /forum/post/14919030
> 
> 
> To what end? To pay his overhead and to increase his profit on the job. Why is that so hard to see. If he can't make a profit he won't be there to do the rest of the work you want. If you think you can do it cheaper with someone else or do it yourself then you have that option. If he can't find enough people to buy his systems then he won't stay in business or he'll have to adjust his pricing. No rocket science here...just people angling for a better deal and dealers trying to make a profit. It is the give and take of doing business.



Of course it is







! Thank you.


----------



## Dahwoo

I also want to add that a lof of companies even though the rates seem high lose money in labor because they want to keep a relationship with the customer or contractor... I worked at another location in palo alto who lost money on product and made money on labor. you seem to think that people are making a double killing and I haven't seen or heard of any company that is doing that.. either way we as CI's have to give a little to make a little


there are so many variables into running a CI/retail shop and you want us to spill our guts to you, which we have. but in the normal day to day world I wouldn't because here I reach a lot of people at a store I reach one person and that just isnt worth my time trying to explain our business practices. so for you the savvy buyer you can come here and learn all the tools you'll need to negotiate with a local CI... so I'm glad we've helped


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *buckswope* /forum/post/14919072
> 
> 
> This irritates savvy buyers no end? Or the savvy buyers who hang around here to no end are irritated? Both, I suspect.



Right on both fronts







. I was irritated before I got here, not being able to find any pricing info to decide how much this system would cost me before I got into it. Then I come here and see people get pounded if they make any comment about how the business is run. Look at how much of it is getting done in this thread. And that is the reason I post.


My own situation is sorted now. But I feel bad about the rest of the folks still trying to put together a nice system on their own, without paying 45% margins for services they don't need, can't easily research prices and system capabilities, and are told they are ugly to boot







.


Bunch of smart people think that having a tense discussion on AVS is the way to earn goodwill. It is not. In my first post, I asked why CI's hang around here if some people don't appreciate them. No one answered. Q asked me to answer it (!). I said it was to earn new business and to have fun. No one has said otherwise so I assume that covers all of you. Now, you tell me what about the last few pages of this thread is helping you earn new business or was fun? Be honest with yourself and you see that it did neither.


So please think before you post the next reply. Step back and think of the forest from the trees. Why are you here? Really, why?


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14919085
> 
> 
> Then the message is lost here. You all serve your current customers the way you do, and have the level of business you do. We are talking about how to expand the market and serve more people. If you are not interested in that discussion, then by all means, hang around somewhere else. But if you are, we are showing you another untapped business which still makes a lot of money for folks. Despite all the cost cutting I have done, my system will cost me around $35K when it is all said and done. You almost didn't have me.



BUT WE DO HAVE YOU







LOL but anyway you found someone that accomodated your needs... this is everywhere and every walk of life. but you still seem unsatisfied


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14919190
> 
> 
> Bunch of smart people think that having a tense discussion on AVS is the way to earn goodwill. It is not. In my first post, I asked why CI's hang around here if some people don't appreciate them. No one answered. Q asked me to answer it (!). I said it was to earn new business and to have fun. No one has said otherwise so I assume that covers all of you. Now, you tell me what about the last few pages of this thread is helping you earn new business or was fun? Be honest with yourself and you see that it did neither.
> 
> 
> So please think before you post the next reply. Step back and think of the forest from the trees. Why are you here? Really, why?



I already answered this question... I am here to learn more myself and to help those that need help... you actually even thanked me for that... oh how our minds forget when we are on a tirade(did I spell that right?)


I am not looking to get business for my company.. how ever I offer myself to others and CI's who need help (and I consider that us helping each other) not trying to run a business


----------



## lcaillo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14919085
> 
> 
> Then the message is lost here. You all serve your current customers the way you do, and have the level of business you do. We are talking about how to expand the market and serve more people. If you are not interested in that discussion, then by all means, hang around somewhere else. But if you are, we are showing you another untapped business which still makes a lot of money for folks. Despite all the cost cutting I have done, my system will cost me around $35K when it is all said and done. You almost didn't have me.



It is not lost at all. You reinforced my point precisely. You end up doing business with him because there is value to you in doing so. If it was not a good enough value to you you would not. You have no idea what kind of busniess I do and what my views are regarding other untapped revenue streams. The bottom line is as I said. You do have choices. You don't have to spend $35K at all or you can spend $50K. The choice is yours. If you see such an opportunity and such a great market out there...go into business.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dahwoo* /forum/post/14919184
> 
> 
> I also want to add that a lof of companies even though the rates seem high lose money in labor because they want to keep a relationship with the customer or contractor... I worked at another location in palo alto who lost money on product and made money on labor. you seem to think that people are making a double killing and I haven't seen or heard of any company that is doing that.. either way we as CI's have to give a little to make a little



Let me see. There was an announcement yesterday that Circuit City was shutting down a number of their stores due to poor sales and company performance. Was there moment of silence in your household over that news? I suspect not. As a consumer, you don't consider that your problem I am sure. And the fact that we all collectively took our business to a lower cost retailer/e-tailer, was something we are not ashamed of. Same is true of us when it comes to hearing the above story







.


----------



## buckswope




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14919085
> 
> 
> What overhead? He works out of his house. And spends 5 minutes ordering the parts online though the distributor.



I hope you hired someone who is insured; otherwise if he hurts himself on your job site he'll be suing _you_. And, he'll need health insurance, licensing in most states, tax reporting, the list goes on. Overhead. He has it, you need to help pay it to do business with him.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14919085
> 
> 
> I am paying him $85/hour. His first bid was $35K without the lighting system! If he can't make a living this way, then he should find something else to do.



Ignores a whole host of facts to make a snappy statement in a single sentence.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14919085
> 
> 
> Then the message is lost here. You all serve your current customers the way you do, and have the level of business you do. We are talking about how to expand the market and serve more people. If you are not interested in that discussion, then by all means, hang around somewhere else. But if you are, we are showing you another untapped business which still makes a lot of money for folks. Despite all the cost cutting I have done, my system will cost me around $35K when it is all said and done. You almost didn't have me.



Untapped business with slim margins, and exposure to a host of service and support issues? Hmmm, sign me up for some of that!


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lcaillo* /forum/post/14919244
> 
> 
> It is not lost at all. You reinforced my point precisely. You end up doing business with him because there is value to you in doing so. If it was not a good enough value to you you would not.



You probably missed earlier thread where I said it is NOT good value to me. If I were to measure this system on value, I would not have spent this much money. I am doing it because it has become a hobby. My wife would have been just as happy with toggle switches.



> Quote:
> You have no idea what kind of busniess I do and what my views are regarding other untapped revenue streams.



That is true. That is why the forum rules suggest that if you are in business and are making an argument in the favor of that business, you should clearly identify yourself. That way, comments can be put in the full light of where the person comes from.



> Quote:
> The bottom line is as I said. You do have choices. You don't have to spend $35K at all or you can spend $50K. The choice is yours. If you see such an opportunity and such a great market out there...go into business.



Back to take it or leave it argument. Thanks but that has been mentioned a dozen times. Fact is that there is a way to do business differently. Folks just don't want to hear it and fight tooth and nail.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14919253
> 
> 
> Let me see. There was an announcement yesterday that Circuit City was shutting down a number of their stores due to poor sales and company performance. Was there moment of silence in your household over that news? I suspect not. As a consumer, you don't consider that your problem I am sure. And the fact that we all collectively took our business to a lower cost retailer/e-tailer, was something we are not ashamed of. Same is true of us when it comes to hearing the above story
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



I didnt even hear about circuit city... but I brought that up to tell you that you think that we make double the profits (margins and labor) when in actuallity we dont. I haven't dont work for(contract) or worked(on-staff) for anyone in this industry that was making a profit on the labor and the margins as you describe. making a little in both would be nice but I just dont see it... yes some jobs make more profit on margins and some on labor but at the end of the year one of the 2 kept the lights on. This is just current day scenario ... who knows this could change.


I dont care who you buy from. Some people buy from us and pay the price we ask just because they know and trust us and that is what satisfies me not hearing that circuit city went out of busines... that doesnt really help or hurt me.


----------



## Mattman

Standards will likely come to automation at some point, driving down cost and making it more attainable for the average Joe. That is unavoidable. But open standards, while beneficial, also have their pitfalls.


Mac routinely attacks PC in their commercials as being unreliable, unstable, etc. People who know computers know that generally the PC environment can be very stable but the sheer volume of 3rd party apps and software designed to run on the PC platform introduce a greater chance for instability than you typically find with a Mac. Why? Far fewer companies make Mac software thereby creating less opportunities for potential issues. As Mac becomes more popular and more widely used this will likely change.


For this reason, in a corporate environment, the IT people tend to force very stringent policies on what one can and can't put on their work PC. They essentially close off what is otherwise an open platform to reduce the potential for problems.


The home automation systems by Crestron, Lutron and must have rock solid reliability to maintain their reputations and to continue to sell. People will not accept anything less when they want their lights to go on and off. They also have to have enormous flexibility in order to provide a high level of value for the widest group of potential clients. With that flexibility comes complexity and that's why the vast majority of people (present company excluded) would never be successful in doing it themselves.


Creating a standard for home automation has been complicated by the success of Microsoft. Every company would like to be the "Microsoft" of the home and have other companies adhere to their standard so that they can collect the royalties. On the flip side, none of the companies in the game have any interest in adhering to the standards of someone else while paying for that privilege.


Even when the A/V industry makes an attempt at a standard, they often screw it up. HDMI is a perfect example. Part of the standard was the promise of plug and play inter-operability between HDMI devices. That has not occurred as each company created their own control protocol which is inconsistent from one another.


While Blu-Ray is a "standard" it is also a moving target that has left many early adopters with players that do not take advantage of all of Blu-Ray's features.


Creating a standard for automation also requires the cooperation of so many industries besides just A/V that it is a daunting task at best. That's probably why the most successful automation company, Crestron, makes so many of their own devices (switches, dimmers, thermostats, shade controls, amps, video switching, etc.). They've created their own standard, it just hasn't been adopted by everyone yet (if that is even an option). Meanwhile they have to maintain enough flexibility to still interact with everyone else's devices.


Standards will come at some point and prices will come down but the companies that are currently large enough to pull it off (Sony, Microsoft, etc.) have either attempted and abandoned those efforts or just don't see it as a viable and profitable market yet. Smaller or upstart companies that have tried to bring automation to the masses have either failed completely or struggle to achieve enough mass market penetration to generate the revenue required for R&D to further their efforts.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *buckswope* /forum/post/14919303
> 
> 
> I hope you hired someone who is insured; otherwise if he hurts himself on your job site he'll be suing _you_. And, he'll need health insurance, licensing in most states, tax reporting, the list goes on. Overhead. He has it, you need to help pay it to do business with him.



All of our subs are insured and bonded. My electrician has become the sub for the lighting system now. And my general contractor also has insurance on top of his insurance (and charges me 1% just for that on top of his 15% normal profit margin).


My electrician pays someone $20/hour to run cables and I think passes on the cost to me at multiples of that. That covers his overhead pretty good I think.











> Quote:
> Untapped business with slim margins, and exposure to a host of service and support issues? Hmmm, sign me up for some of that!



What support and service? Do posts not get read? I am doing the support and service. My electrician just knows how to run the cables. That is it. Rest is my responsibility. He is making great profit on this job.


If i wanted to transform this business, I would set up a B2B service to get every electrician to install Centralite. It would be a great additional business for them to get into. They all think it is too hard. But once I showed my guy how easy it was, he couldn't believe all this time he has been passing this business to the low voltage guy who in turn hires someone else to do the high voltage work!


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14919038
> 
> 
> You have made this point half a dozen time and I keep forgetting to comment on it. No, we don't bypass the dealer when we buy electronics. But we get to deal with people who charge us appropriate margin for the services they provide.



There is no "appropriate margin" for what people provide. It's a figment of your imagination. As a consumer you want the lowest price possible (or the best value possible). The seller wants the highest price possible (or the best value possible). By value I mean that each party may not only want thy lowest/highest price. The customer may decide they are willing to pay a higher price than the lowest price, in exchange for expertise/service etc. The seller may decide they will sell for less even if they could get more in exchange for a lasting relationship etc.


But back to margin, the consumer gets to shop around. If they talk to 5 sellers and the markup among all of them is 45% that does not mean the margin is "inappropriate" any more than if they talk to five dealers and four sell at 5% and one sells at 45% that the 45% seller can complain that the 5% margin is "inappropriate"! In this case I guess the seller should rant about the inappropriately low margins and I'm guessing you would rightly laugh your ass off at the absurdity of such a notion.



> Quote:
> You seem to be saying that in your industry everyone has to pay the same huge mark-up regardless of the effort involved in ordering and getting the equipment.



I have not said that at all though I'm not really even sure what your point is. The "effort to order something" has very little to do with the equation.


I also don't think I have any "right" to a markup at all, in precisely the same way you don't have any "right" to avoid "inappropriate margins".


Now if your entire argument is that you are tech savvy and going to be a very easy sale and demand no support and therefore I might want to accommodate you, I've never disagreed with that. I've made that same argument to people I want to buy from many times. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't







.



> Quote:
> This irritates the savvy buyer who hangs around here to no end.



Well from my view it irritates the ignorant buyer who wants things and gets angry when they can't have their way. Let me relate a couple of experiences. A few years back I bought a Jacuzzi. I figured I'd see if I could get it at cost through a distributor. I checked on it and felt like I'd have to jump through too many hoops as you call it to make it happen so I sucked it up and bought it. Around the same time I also bought an elliptical machine. I shopped around and found it basically could not be bought on the Internet and the company in the area seemed to have an exclusive on the one I wanted and they would not negotiate. And I'm pretty sure they probably made 50 points on it when they sold it to me. So what? I shopped around. It was the one I wanted. All their stores had it at retail. If I didn't want it, there were 20 other cheaper ones I could find elsewhere.


Now I suppose that if I had followed your reasoning, and I had not bought it, that I would have jumped to the conclusion that this store really missed the boat by not dropping their price. I could have told them how there was this huge market of smart savvy shoppers that don't like paying 50 points on exercise machines. But I'd consider that an absurd and illogical argument







.


----------



## lcaillo

amirm


It is not a take it or leave it argument. The fact is that business is a matter of maximizing profit in the context of demand. It does not matter what business model you use, every business is somewhere along that continuum. Each CI or dealer has to decide for himself what he can give up to get the business he wants. Similarly, every consumer of his products and services has to decide what the value of those services might be in the context of his/her/their needs and desires. You decided that what you get for your $35K was of sufficient in value for you. The proof of that is the fact that you paid what you did for the services.


There are as many different ways of doing business as there are businesses. You may suggest all that you want. The fact is that those that stay in business have found a model that works. Many of the alternatives have not resulted in businesses that can be sustained. Your assumptions about overhead are a good example of your lack of understanding of the costs of doing business.


As for what I do, I have never hidden the fact that I am a service tech who does system optimization and repair. I work for several dealers and have extensive experience in the design, installation, repair, sales, and management aspects of the consumer electronics business. I do not reject any particular business model, but I do have a goog understanding that there are greater costs that most assume when it comes to doing business in this industry. I have seen dozens of CIs, dealers, servicers, calibrators, and vendors fail. The vast majority of them do so for the very assumptions that I have seen made in this thread. Some have failed because they priced themselves stubbornly on the high side, but far more have failed for understimating overhead and not maintaining margins that could sustain the business.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lcaillo* /forum/post/14919244
> 
> 
> It is not lost at all. You reinforced my point precisely. You end up doing business with him because there is value to you in doing so. If it was not a good enough value to you you would not. *You have no idea what kind of business I do and what my views are regarding other untapped revenue streams.*



I think you are doing a lot better here than I am. The last part reflects my attitude precisely. For all amir knows I could be very DIY friendly. I might even believe, GASP, that DIY have every right to get access to software, that automation software has a valid future and any other number of extreme







views. But he seems much more intent on telling us what he thinks we believe than asking us.


I also have no issue justify my profit margin one iota. I need to make 35 points and anyone who does not like that is free to look elsewhere. They are also free to compare that to other industries because I can assure you it's not high. There's a good reason people in the software field make a lot of money and it's because gross and ultimately net margins are extremely high. They make the margins in my industry look like bird feed.


Speaking of which amir, I know you consider this an unfair/irrelevant question, but I still would like to know how you slept at night working for MS who operated at 85% gross margin







!


----------



## QQQ

BTW amir. You've suggested several times this issue as you see it is somehow unique to my industry. I've been around here long enough to know it is not, not even close. I've been reading these same arguments in the projector forums for years and they go something like "I am so pissed off, I went to 3 different Marantz dealers and none of them would sell for less than retail and I knew more about projectors than they did". This is ANYTHING but a unique argument. I'm going to guess it goes on on every hobbyist forum on the Internet. I've seen it about every forum of A/V equipment. And without exception the argument is "what's wrong with these dumb dealers/manufacturers, don't they realize how much money they are losing by not selling to educated consumers like me"? Usually followed by dire predictions about how all these dumb manufactures/dealers are going to go out of business







.


----------



## Syphon Filter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14917417
> 
> 
> 
> Let's deal with this white elephant. Why the resentful attitude? Folks are going as far as name calling it seems.



Amir, at no point have I name called or tried to offend anyone.


I'm going to step out of this debate because I think all you want to hear is a rock solid argument as to why CI prices are high and I don't think that is going to happen. Alternatively you want CI's not mark up their equipment so much, why should a CI want to do this at this point in time? If their services are in demand at the prices they currently charge then why should they want to drop their prices?


Once again, the prices are what they are. Customers are free to obtain quotes from as many CI's or equipment dealers as they want to and either employ the services of a chosen CI or not. If a dealer wants to offer you a discount to secure your custom then that is their perogative, not every other CI has to follow suit.


I am sure that over time all your current "wishlist" items will come to fruition. An open pricing structure, more stanards, mass market adoption of the technology etc. Of course we will see home automation in every home in the future in some fashion or other. But these things take time. It's just not ready for everyone yet. Initially TV's were a luxury item that only the wealthy could afford. Then as the technology developed things started to filter down.


Remember a time when ABS brakes were an optional extra? Now they're pretty much ubiquitous...it all takes time. But be assured, that when home automation filters down into the mass market there will be something that replaces it at the "high-end" which will command high dealer margins, high installation costs and high programmings costs.


I'm bowing out now.


Thank you and goodnight!


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/14919523
> 
> 
> I think you are doing a lot better here than I am. The last part reflects my attitude precisely. For all amir knows I could be very DIY friendly. I might even believe, GASP, that DIY have every right to get access to software, that automation software has a valid future and any other number of extreme
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> views. But he seems much more intent on telling us what he thinks we believe than asking us.
> 
> 
> I also have no issue justify my profit margin one iota. I need to make 35 points and anyone who does not like that is free to look elsewhere. They are also free to compare that to other industries because I can assure you it's not high. There's a good reason people in the software field make a lot of money and it's because gross and ultimately net margins are extremely high. They make the margins in my industry look like bird feed.
> 
> 
> Speaking of which amir, I know you consider this an unfair/irrelevant question, but I still would like to know how you slept at night working for MS who operated at 85% gross margin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !



Best post you have made in the entire thread. Talk a bit about yourself and much less about the other guy and we get some place







. Even when I gave you a chance earlier, you didn't go there....


As to your question, I already answered that too. I can't disclose the OEM pricing for Windows (what Microsoft really makes from each sales). But suffice it to say, it is less than the taxes I pay Comcast for our service, let alone programming for a single pay channel. And that was assuming you keep the PC for 4 years. If you keep it longer, it becomes the most amazing bargain there really is. So I slept quite easy thank you








. On the other hand when I see our $150 Comcast bill which keeps going up, well, my blood boils.


But yes, it is a wonderful business model. Now Google has another. Look at the pages on this forum. Folks there don't even sell software and make money. I think the average person pays google the equiv. of $20/year! That is a lot more than they are paying Microsoft for its OS.


So no wonder I suggested that the money ultimately is in software and services. Let someone else make boxes and worry about margins there. This is why standards can be super helpful to even companies like Crestron/Lutron. Their net margin can be far, far higher than it is now.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Syphon Filter* /forum/post/14919591
> 
> 
> Amir, at no point have I name called or tried to offend anyone.
> 
> 
> I'm going to step out of this debate because I think all you want to hear is a rock solid argument as to why CI prices are high and I don't think that is going to happen. Alternatively you want CI's not mark up their equipment so much, why should a CI want to do this at this point in time? If their services are in demand at the prices they currently charge then why should they want to drop their prices?
> 
> 
> Once again, the prices are what they are. Customers are free to obtain quotes from as many CI's or equipment dealers as they want to and either employ the services of a chosen CI or not. If a dealer wants to offer you a discount to secure your custom then that is their perogative, not every other CI has to follow suit.
> 
> 
> I am sure that over time all your current "wishlist" items will come to fruition. An open pricing structure, more stanards, mass market adoption of the technology etc. Of course we will see home automation in every home in the future in some fashion or other. But these things take time. It's just not ready for everyone yet. Initially TV's were a luxury item that only the wealthy could afford. Then as the technology developed things started to filter down.
> 
> 
> Remember a time when ABS brakes were an optional extra? Now they're pretty much ubiquitous...it all takes time. But be assured, that when home automation filters down into the mass market there will be something that replaces it at the "high-end" which will command high dealer margins, high installation costs and high programmings costs.
> 
> 
> I'm bowing out now.
> 
> 
> Thank you and goodnight!



That is how you bow out. With class







. Thanks for the note and appreciate the discussion. I think the entire thread is going to wind down at this point as we have all said what needed to be said...


----------



## Syphon Filter

I just wanted to say a couple more things before the curtain call:


1. I think the reason CI's/Dealers/DIY'ers/anyone else hangs out here is to seek advice & help each other out and as Amir says, have a bit of fun.


2. What nobody should expect to happen when visiting is to be name called, singled out, or have to justify the descisions they make or the manner in which they conduct their private lives and businesses.


----------



## lcaillo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Syphon Filter* /forum/post/14919748
> 
> 
> I just wanted to say a couple more things before the curtain call:
> 
> 
> 1. I think the reason CI's/Dealers/DIY'ers/anyone else hangs out here is to seek advice & help each other out and as Amir says, have a bit of fun.
> 
> 
> 2. What nobody should expect to happen when visiting is to be name called, singled out, or have to justify the descisions they make or the manner in which they conduct their private lives and businesses.



I have no problem being asked to justify any of these things. In business, the market justifies how we conduct business. If it does not, we don't stay in business. Well, that is, unless we get a government bailout...


As for the personal decisions, if we never challenge each other, how are we going to learn and improve. Successful people constantly look for ways to challenge themselves and their assumptions. If you can't justify them, chances are you are on your way to failure.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Syphon Filter* /forum/post/14919748
> 
> 
> I just wanted to say a couple more things before the curtain call:
> 
> 
> 1. I think the reason CI's/Dealers/DIY'ers/anyone else hangs out here is to seek advice & help each other out and as Amir says, have a bit of fun.
> 
> 
> 2. What nobody should expect to happen when visiting is to be name called, singled out, or have to justify the descisions they make or the manner in which they conduct their private lives and businesses.



My daughter is smarter than your daughter. J/K I dont have a daughter.... but if I did, she'd be smarter... LOL







anyway I had fun...


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lcaillo* /forum/post/14919882
> 
> 
> I have no problem being asked to justify any of these things. In business, the market justifies how we conduct business. If it does not, we don't stay in business. Well, that is, unless we get a government bailout...



The bailout another disgusting topic.. did you know that if they gave that money to 50% of americans we'd all get a check for almost $5k thats a nice chunk of change... and thats if they gave it to 50% I am not even sure there are 150million jobs out there...


I'm sure the real number would be alarming... does anyone actually know how many jobs there are in the US? yes I know this is way off topic but never the less I'm interested


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14919085
> 
> 
> Show me a single link to someone selling Crestron/Lutron (outside of ebay).


 http://www.*******.com/Crestron/59/0/productList.php 


They will sell you anything you want.


PM me if you want the name.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *herdfan* /forum/post/14920061
> 
> http://www.*******.com/Crestron/59/0/productList.php
> 
> 
> They will sell you anything you want.
> 
> 
> PM me if you want the name.



You mean these guys? http://www.*******.com/Crestron/59/0/productList.php 


If so, they don't show any prices. I am sure many will 'sell' me stuff. But before I get there, I like to have an easy time researching, as I can do at smarthome.com.


Edit: looks like AVS blocks that site. Anyway, I know who they are but per above, they don't show any prices.


----------



## buckswope




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14919392
> 
> 
> What support and service? Do posts not get read? I am doing the support and service. My electrician just knows how to run the cables. That is it. Rest is my responsibility. He is making great profit on this job.



I read your post, and told you that within my experience you are absolutely unique in your resolve to never call the tech after the fact. We're talking about a great untapped market, so I'm presuming that means more than just you as the buyer of this product, and therefore the rest of humanity would be buying it, and calling me after the fact.


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/14920114
> 
> 
> You mean these guys? If so, they don't show any prices. ...nly put in the time and effort to make it so.


----------



## amirm

I know all that







. I gave smarthome.com as an example of a store with pricing and reasonable source of manuals and such. I am putting in hardwired system and earlier talked about issues my friend has had with Insteon. I have spent three months researching and am still digging into security cams and such....


----------



## Mike_Boulanger




> Quote:
> Indeed, it pays to ask twice. A friend installed Insteon a year ago, saying how wonderful it was from cost prespective. And that it worked great. I had lunch with him last month and he said one of the switches has stuck in the on mode and can't be turned off! He als had a hell of a time configuring them before buying the ISY front-end.



Is that Kevin? Has he been happy with the ISY?


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mike_Boulanger* /forum/post/14922006
> 
> 
> Is that Kevin? Has he been happy with the ISY?



Boy, it is such a small world







. Yes, it is him. And yes, he spoke very highly of ISY. He thinks it is crazy to use Insteon without it.


----------



## Mike_Boulanger




> Quote:
> Boy, it is such a small world . Yes, it is him. And yes, he spoke very highly of ISY. He thinks it is crazy to use Insteon without it.



Glad to hear! I put 2 and 2 together and took a shot...


I met him at EHX Orlando this past spring and showed him around the ISY quite a bit. We exchanged emails a few times but haven't heard from him in a while - I'm glad he's happy with it!


----------

